Speaker 1: Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership.
Speaker 2: I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo.
Speaker 1: And Lorenzo. On this episode, we're continuing the discussion that
Speaker 1: we've been having for the last couple of weeks on
Speaker 1: kind of going through the list of kind of a
Speaker 1: backlog of listener questions that have been submitted to us
Speaker 1: over the last maybe nine or ten months that we
Speaker 1: haven't gotten through yet. You know, we tend to want
Speaker 1: to answer questions from listeners that are very specific to
Speaker 1: something that one of our listeners is going through, a
Speaker 1: kind of a real world example of something that we
Speaker 1: can help out with, and you know, sometimes we gravitate
Speaker 1: less towards the questions that are kind of generalized or
Speaker 1: in theory. But I think a lot of these are
Speaker 1: important questions to answer. They may not just be able
Speaker 1: to fill up an entire episode. So we want to
Speaker 1: go through this list of questions that we've kind of
Speaker 1: kept in the hopper from our listeners who have you know,
Speaker 1: reached out to us via LinkedIn, Instagram, text message, email,
Speaker 1: and kind of go through that list because they are
Speaker 1: important questions and if one person's reaching out to ask them,
Speaker 1: then clearly others have the same questions in their mind too,
Speaker 1: or you know, maybe something they're they're worried about. If
Speaker 1: you haven't listened to these episodes for the last two Mondays,
Speaker 1: please go back and do so. We've we've covered some
Speaker 1: great topics on The first question I want to tackle
Speaker 1: in this episode was sent by a listener six months
Speaker 1: ago now, and they were wondering about generational differences in
Speaker 1: the workplace, because there's there are a lot of not
Speaker 1: just organizations, but actual teams where there could be two, three,
Speaker 1: or even four different generations of people on the same
Speaker 1: team being led by the same leader. And clearly the
Speaker 1: leadership style needed in order to lead a team of
Speaker 1: people that are of multiple generations is different. You have
Speaker 1: to be able to lead people and meet them where
Speaker 1: they are, and different generations, they are potentially or almost
Speaker 1: definitely looking for a different type of leader, you know,
Speaker 1: than someone of a different generation, someone who's twenty or
Speaker 1: thirty years older or younger than that. They might be looking
Speaker 1: for a different type of leader. And it's important if
Speaker 1: if a leader wants the entire team performing at a
Speaker 1: at a high level, then they need to be able
Speaker 1: to lead everybody. And so so the idea of generational
Speaker 1: differences impacting the leadership style. I think it's a really
Speaker 1: important one. I think I think a lot of leaders
Speaker 1: they might, you know, they might find it easier to
Speaker 1: lead people who are of the same generation as them,
Speaker 1: or maybe one generation removed from from who they are,
Speaker 1: but they might find a harder time doing it from
Speaker 1: somebody who is two or more generations removed from their own.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would tell you in my experience absolutely, I
Speaker 2: would think that the places that you work, the industries
Speaker 2: that you work in, the expectations of the job, how
Speaker 2: how the jobs that people are doing in different generations,
Speaker 2: like are they the same job? Are they different jobs? Like?
Speaker 2: That has a lot to do I think with the
Speaker 2: leader and the ability to have maybe easier relationships or
Speaker 2: easier ways of leading through generations. I think in my experience,
Speaker 2: and you know, coming up in retail, you know, even
Speaker 2: the generations, the generational differences, everybody's kind of doing the
Speaker 2: same thing, which that that does make it much easier
Speaker 2: because those connection points, the dialogue, the conversations can really
Speaker 2: revolve around, you know, the work that's being done and
Speaker 2: kind of getting to know people through that work. I
Speaker 2: think there are many industries where typically the different generations
Speaker 2: may play different roles because those have been people have
Speaker 2: been around longer, they've had a chance to have more experience,
Speaker 2: they're they're doing things that maybe on the surface might
Speaker 2: look similar, but there's definitely some differences in the work
Speaker 2: as a result of people that have more experience and
Speaker 2: more tenure in the jobs. And I think that can
Speaker 2: make it a little bit more difficult if you're you know,
Speaker 2: if you're leading a team like of an lists and
Speaker 2: you've kind of got you know, brand new analysts and
Speaker 2: then you've got like senior analysts and then you've got
Speaker 2: you know, like like that that change not only in
Speaker 2: maybe you know, capability and uh and the job can
Speaker 2: many times be because of tenure. And then that of course,
Speaker 2: then tenure means somebody's been doing it longer, So there's
Speaker 2: a chance that there is a generational gap there that
Speaker 2: can be much more difficult if there are different expectations
Speaker 2: for the jobs and different levels of you know, of
Speaker 2: work that needs to be done, because even though you
Speaker 2: may be talking about the same things, you're gonna have
Speaker 2: to talk about them in different ways. And then you're
Speaker 2: you're you're spending time as a leader talking to someone
Speaker 2: who's probably maybe done the job they're doing longer than
Speaker 2: you've been a leader, right, And and that again that
Speaker 2: that that can make it difficult, and that can happen
Speaker 2: in other industries too, where people are doing the same job,
Speaker 2: but typically over time there's an evolution there around, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of growth and commonality of goals and adjustments and things.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I think that it is definitely
Speaker 2: my experience, it probably is impacted more for leaders in
Speaker 2: different industries across the way. And which is why I
Speaker 2: love these kind of questions because even though we might
Speaker 2: we might not have this happen to us or or
Speaker 2: experienced it very often, there are definitely other places in
Speaker 2: other industries where this is much more prevalent and requires,
Speaker 2: you know, there to be an openness and a curiosity
Speaker 2: about getting to know people and individually the people on
Speaker 2: your team, and I think that could be really helpful
Speaker 2: in closing some of those generational gaps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're spot on with that, and I
Speaker 1: like the example that you gave with that, or the
Speaker 1: context you put it in, because you know, it used
Speaker 1: to be that if people were doing the same job
Speaker 1: that they were, they were more likely to be of
Speaker 1: the same generation or very similar because of the way
Speaker 1: that people progress through a career and get promoted, and
Speaker 1: and and if you were leading a team of people
Speaker 1: who were of significantly different generations, that typically that implies
Speaker 1: that the people in those roles, some of them are
Speaker 1: looking at it as a stepping stone to something bigger
Speaker 1: and they want to move up or go on, whereas
Speaker 1: other people might just be looking at it as they're
Speaker 1: happy where they are, they don't want to move up,
Speaker 1: and this is their career. And then so they end
Speaker 1: up having a lot of tenure in those roles, and
Speaker 1: you end up with you know, older people and younger
Speaker 1: people doing the same role because people you know don't
Speaker 1: want to move up. I think I think a lot
Speaker 1: of this is is misclassified as generational differences, when in
Speaker 1: actuality it is you know, the leadership style is just that.
Speaker 1: I think some leaders have a difficult time leading people
Speaker 1: who are one or two generations older than who they
Speaker 1: they are versus one or two generations younger than who
Speaker 1: they are, because there is a kind of like an
Speaker 1: an inherent belief that oh, I have to I have
Speaker 1: to show these people that I am qualified to be here.
Speaker 1: To be to the leader of this team, that that
Speaker 1: there's almost like this assumption going into the relationship that
Speaker 1: you're working from a deficit, that the person who's looking
Speaker 1: at you as the leader is thinking, oh, I've been
Speaker 1: doing this job longer than you've been with the company,
Speaker 1: or you know, since you were in high school or
Speaker 1: whatever it is, and and that that person goes into
Speaker 1: the into it thinking that they have to overcome that.
Speaker 1: And while I'm not saying that doesn't happen, I think
Speaker 1: acknowledging that sometimes can exacerbate the problem, and talking about
Speaker 1: it from a standpoint of what what is? What are
Speaker 1: the people on your team looking for from you as
Speaker 1: the leader and starting there and commonality in the job
Speaker 1: that they are doing can can break the ice from
Speaker 1: that standpoint. But I also think that you know, regardless
Speaker 1: of who a person is and what generation they are
Speaker 1: a part of, there are some commonalities between all people
Speaker 1: in terms of what they're looking for, just because the
Speaker 1: expectations of leaders have changed over time and the transparency
Speaker 1: and availability of information out there for what makes a
Speaker 1: good leader, and you know, people who've worked for different
Speaker 1: jobs and different leaders and their opinions of what makes
Speaker 1: a good leader versus a bad leader. You know those things.
Speaker 1: The availability of that information can help leaders find that
Speaker 1: commonality and focus on those things rather than focusing on
Speaker 1: the differences. And so, you know what, whether someone is,
Speaker 1: you know, twenty four years old and in their first
Speaker 1: job after college, or doing the exact same role and
Speaker 1: they are fifty two and they they been in the
Speaker 1: workforce for you know, thirty years, the things that people
Speaker 1: want are they want a leader who is supportive of
Speaker 1: their goals, which at whatever they are. So if my
Speaker 1: goal is to move up, I want a leader who
Speaker 1: supports my wanting to move up, whatever that looks like.
Speaker 1: If I'm wanting to stay exactly where I am and
Speaker 1: not move up, I want a leader who supports my
Speaker 1: belief in terms of what micromanaging versus leaving me alone.
Speaker 1: The proper level of support is for the job I'm
Speaker 1: getting done. If I am in the middle of my
Speaker 1: career and I feel like I can bring a lot
Speaker 1: to the table from a knowledge standpoint, I don't want
Speaker 1: a leader coming in and trying to prove to me
Speaker 1: that they are able to do it by their words.
Speaker 1: I want them to acknowledge the knowledge, skills and abilities
Speaker 1: that I've brought to the table for the time that
Speaker 1: I've been doing it, and leverage those things in the
Speaker 1: secution of whatever the goals are. To show me that
Speaker 1: that what I bring to the table is valued, not
Speaker 1: try to just show me that, oh you can trust me.
Speaker 1: I've been doing this a long time too. It's like,
Speaker 1: if you have to say it, then you and then
Speaker 1: at some point you'll you'll give the impression to your
Speaker 1: people that you don't have the actions or the skills
Speaker 1: to back it up. So you have to say it
Speaker 1: instead sometimes just doing it and moving through it and
Speaker 1: showing that whatever you don't have to bring with you,
Speaker 1: that you can leverage that from your team and that
Speaker 1: you know who the right people are. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of that is where leaders can can do this
Speaker 1: the right way as opposed to the wrong way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so funny you were talking through that, and
Speaker 2: I know this is to your point. It's it's the
Speaker 2: questions are around leading different generations, but the the ability
Speaker 2: to build connection and to to help, you know, to
Speaker 2: help support people wherever they are with whatever background or
Speaker 2: experience they have. That's really kind of the underlying element
Speaker 2: of this. It's rare, if ever that I ever hear
Speaker 2: somebody saying like, well, you you just can't lead me, Chris,
Speaker 2: because you don't understand what I went through thirty years ago. No, like, no, like,
Speaker 2: it's not that's not where I don't I don't ever
Speaker 2: hear that. I think you may you don't understand me
Speaker 2: because you don't maybe understand my perspective, or you're not
Speaker 2: seeing it from my viewpoint, or or you're not hearing
Speaker 2: what I'm saying as I'm explaining you know, why this
Speaker 2: would be an issue or why this could be an issue,
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm pulling this form maybe something that
Speaker 2: happened many, many, many years ago. So it can feel
Speaker 2: like it's because we're from different generations, but the reality
Speaker 2: is you're just not listening to me, right, You're not
Speaker 2: You're not giving me a response or or attention to
Speaker 2: what I'm saying, and you're not taking into account my
Speaker 2: many years of experience that can help us in the situation.
Speaker 2: So I love that you said that because I was
Speaker 2: just having a conversation with someone the the day around,
Speaker 2: like you know, do more and direct less, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, like, there's a lot of times
Speaker 2: in leadership where we want to give advice or perspective,
Speaker 2: or we feel that like giving direction on how to
Speaker 2: go do something is the best way to handle it.
Speaker 2: They don't know what they don't know sometimes, or they're
Speaker 2: showing you in their actions they actually don't know how
Speaker 2: to do it, even if they are telling you they do,
Speaker 2: like the actions show otherwise. So instead of spending so
Speaker 2: much more time continuing to direct or being more clear
Speaker 2: or whatever the case is, just say, let's go do this, like,
Speaker 2: go do it, Go show them, go be a part
Speaker 2: of it, but also be transparent enough to tell them that, say, hey, hey, Chris,
Speaker 2: you know what, Like, I've realized that I've been doing
Speaker 2: a lot of directingly. I've been telling you a lot
Speaker 2: of things that I like for you to go do,
Speaker 2: and and I know that I see you doing these things,
Speaker 2: but I also see that that you're not getting the
Speaker 2: outcome that you're looking for, like like it's not having
Speaker 2: the impact that you want. So I'm going to change
Speaker 2: into what I'm doing here. We're gonna do this together.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it with you right, And I want
Speaker 2: to make sure that I can see your vantage point.
Speaker 2: I want to make sure that I can role model
Speaker 2: for you what this would look like. I want us
Speaker 2: to do these actions together and then we're going to
Speaker 2: talk about them after each one to kind of see
Speaker 2: what did I see? What did you see? What could
Speaker 2: we have done differently? How could we adjust this? But
Speaker 2: I want us to spend more time doing this together
Speaker 2: than just talking about what we're going to go do,
Speaker 2: and let's see if that's going to have a more
Speaker 2: impactful outcome to what you're looking for in your business,
Speaker 2: Like go have that conversation, you know, I think that's
Speaker 2: that's critical and that will then you know, that will
Speaker 2: go beyond any type of a generational potential gap that
Speaker 2: might be be had in communication or perspective or experience.
Speaker 1: Right. Well, so let's let's be real here. When a
Speaker 1: person says you're not hearing me, or or you're not
Speaker 1: taking into account my experience or the years that I
Speaker 1: put into this, what what they're really saying is you're
Speaker 1: not valuing that I have put a value on that experience.
Speaker 1: I have put a value on the things that I've done,
Speaker 1: and you are interacting with me like that doesn't matter
Speaker 1: to you, which devalues my experience and now makes me
Speaker 1: feel like you don't you are grouping me in with
Speaker 1: other people who don't have that experience. And let's be honest,
Speaker 1: there could be a lot of experience that somebody has
Speaker 1: that is not relevant to the current job because the
Speaker 1: expectations of the role have changed, the expectations of your clients,
Speaker 1: your customers have changed. But that doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: can cast that experience aside and say there's no value there.
Speaker 1: It has value from a standpoint of learnings, because you
Speaker 1: learn over time, and you get better over time, and
Speaker 1: you and if a person is able to do a
Speaker 1: job for a lot of years, then hopefully that means
Speaker 1: that they've had to change over years too, they've had
Speaker 1: to acquire new skills. And I love the context that
Speaker 1: you put that in from when you said, you know,
Speaker 1: you're doing these things that I'm asking you to do,
Speaker 1: but you're not getting the outcomes that you want. And
Speaker 1: I think that's such a crucial way to put it,
Speaker 1: because the wrong way to put it would be to
Speaker 1: say you're doing these things, but you're doing them incorrectly,
Speaker 1: because now it becomes subjective. It's like oh no, oh,
Speaker 1: your ways better than my way. It's like, well, yes,
Speaker 1: technically it is, yes, my way of telling you, do
Speaker 1: this is better than your way, but I'm not going
Speaker 1: to tell you that, because the objective way to look
Speaker 1: at it is the outcomes that we're looking for. And
Speaker 1: a person might be able to come back at you
Speaker 1: and say, well, why is your way better than my way,
Speaker 1: and then you get into an argument about the subjectivity
Speaker 1: of the ways that are better, But you can't argue
Speaker 1: the outcomes. The outcomes are what they are. And so
Speaker 1: in the context of hey, you know you're doing these
Speaker 1: things exactly like I'm asking you to do, it looks
Speaker 1: like you're not getting the outcomes that you're looking for.
Speaker 1: There's no way to argue that either they are or
Speaker 1: they or not. The scorecards, the results, the profits, whatever
Speaker 1: they are, whatever the measurement is you're looking at. If
Speaker 1: that's not there, by definition, they're not getting the outcomes
Speaker 1: that you're looking for, and so that kind of diffuses
Speaker 1: the situation, I think, from a standpoint of trying to
Speaker 1: tell them that they're doing something wrong and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: let's let's go work at this together, because at some
Speaker 1: point both of you, the leader and the employee, both
Speaker 1: of you want the same outcomes. You want whatever those
Speaker 1: positive outcomes are you want the expectations met, And if
Speaker 1: you can get past the idea of somebody's doing something
Speaker 1: right or wrong and move on to how can we
Speaker 1: get the outcomes you're looking for, then then you've gone
Speaker 1: about it in a way that preserves their dignity and
Speaker 1: preserves their belief that you value what they've brought to
Speaker 1: the table without kind of casting that aside, but with
Speaker 1: also not shirking your responsibility as the leader that says,
Speaker 1: you know, I have a responsibility to deliver an outcome
Speaker 1: here from each of the people on my team, and
Speaker 1: whatever it takes to get there is the right way way.
Speaker 1: So the catharsis that some leaders get from, you know,
Speaker 1: taking somebody to school. Stop stop with that. You don't
Speaker 1: need the catharsis of taking somebody to school. You want
Speaker 1: the good feeling of the win that says you got
Speaker 1: somewhere with people as a team and that they looked
Speaker 1: at you as someone who was able to support them
Speaker 1: in getting there, even if they don't even realize that's
Speaker 1: what's happening in the moment. If you've gotten the win
Speaker 1: because you've gotten them to deliver the result that is
Speaker 1: being looked for, then that's a win period. Even if
Speaker 1: they believe they got there completely on their own, that
Speaker 1: part doesn't matter. Your role as a leader is to
Speaker 1: get them there, even if you have to swallow your
Speaker 1: pride for a few minutes, honor what they brought to
Speaker 1: the table, and then figure out a way to work
Speaker 1: to get the proper result.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and with that it exists. This episode is one
Speaker 2: minute hack. But first, if you were from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: All right, for this episode one minute hackers, I want
Speaker 1: you to do write down a list of the people
Speaker 1: on your team and write down what generation that they
Speaker 1: are from approximately, and start by kind of looking at
Speaker 1: contaking inventory of the spread that you have on your team,
Speaker 1: and go into these conversations realizing that different people are
Speaker 1: going to value different things. Talk with each of them
Speaker 1: individually about what their goals are or what they want
Speaker 1: to do, not from a standpoint of trying to prescribe
Speaker 1: goals to them, but from a genuine curiosity standpoint of hey,
Speaker 1: how can I support you? Because asking somebody how you
Speaker 1: can support them is not the same thing as saying
Speaker 1: how can I help you get to your goals? Because
Speaker 1: what if their goals? What if they can't articulate what
Speaker 1: their goals are at the moment. What if they're not
Speaker 1: trying to move up, what if they're not trying to promote.
Speaker 1: What if they're just happy where they are and you
Speaker 1: want to make sure that they are delivering high performance results.
Speaker 1: Then it starts by saying how can I support you?
Speaker 1: And they will tell you whether it's they want to
Speaker 1: move up, or they're happy where they are, or they
Speaker 1: want to get better, whatever is they can say to you,
Speaker 1: But don't focus on what their goal is. Focus on
Speaker 1: what you can do to support them, and the goals
Speaker 1: will naturally come out. If it's important that everybody on
Speaker 1: your team has goals, but you can find what they are,
Speaker 1: whether it's getting better at this one skill that they
Speaker 1: may not be excelling in, or if their goal is
Speaker 1: to promote to the next role in the next six
Speaker 1: months or a year. Those are very different things, but
Speaker 1: you as a leader have to be able to bring
Speaker 1: to the table whatever you can do to support those
Speaker 1: people in accomplishing those things, while while honoring the fact
Speaker 1: that whatever they're telling you their goal is it is
Speaker 1: the right answer. Like whatever they're saying is the right answer.
Speaker 1: You just have to know that it can change at
Speaker 1: a moment's notice. Maybe they don't want to promote because
Speaker 1: they've never worked for a leader that was able to
Speaker 1: support them, and now in the face of a leader
Speaker 1: who is supporting them and accomplishing these little things, maybe
Speaker 1: they decide they want to promote or they want to
Speaker 1: move up with an organization. You'll never know that unless
Speaker 1: you start with us from the standpoint of just, hey,
Speaker 1: I want my entire team to be high performing. How
Speaker 1: can I support you in in accomplishing that goal together?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's it's great advice. And and again
Speaker 2: it goes I like the intention of understanding that you're
Speaker 2: you know, if you've got lead people on your team
Speaker 2: that are from different generations, like number one, recognize that,
Speaker 2: right number two, going into those conversations and making sure
Speaker 2: that you're attuned to what the individual needs and asking,
Speaker 2: you know, thoughts and advice. And I mean, I've been
Speaker 2: in situations where simply I've just said, like, look, I
Speaker 2: you know, I can tell you that you've got more
Speaker 2: life experience than I have. I know that you've you know,
Speaker 2: had an opportunity to see other organizations, other jobs, other careers,
Speaker 2: other industries, right, and so I want to have a
Speaker 2: different conversation with you than I would maybe some of
Speaker 2: the newer employees that this is their first job or
Speaker 2: the something new to them, Like like, what do you
Speaker 2: see in our business that you know we could adjust
Speaker 2: that could help us to be better? Like what do
Speaker 2: you see in my leadership that could be adjusted to
Speaker 2: be more inclusive of the entire team, Like I I
Speaker 2: want to leverage somebody who has seen, you know, and
Speaker 2: experience more life than I have to help to make
Speaker 2: sure that I'm aware of my blind spots and that
Speaker 2: I can see things through a different lens from time
Speaker 2: to time. So I just love that intention of those conversations,
Speaker 2: but I think it will always boil down to just
Speaker 2: that individual connection and individual interaction and making sure that
Speaker 2: people feel seen and hurt right right.
Speaker 1: But that level of humility that you're talking about is
Speaker 1: necessary to do that, and I think sometimes leaders who
Speaker 1: are trying to lead teams of people that where there
Speaker 1: might be people on their team that are two generations
Speaker 1: older than they are. I think a lot of times
Speaker 1: leaders can have difficulty bringing that level of humility to
Speaker 1: the table because they can think, oh, I need to
Speaker 1: show my strength as a leader because this person's going
Speaker 1: to be judging me and saying, you know that, thinking
Speaker 1: naturally that I don't have the ability to do this
Speaker 1: because I'm twenty years or thirty years younger than they are.
Speaker 1: And if you go into it thinking that that's where
Speaker 1: where they're gonna come from, then you'll make it happen anyway,
Speaker 1: and you'll end up killing the relationship or at least
Speaker 1: starting from a massive deficit. So if you go into
Speaker 1: it by kind of just disarming that whole thing by
Speaker 1: coming in with the humility, then that stops the person
Speaker 1: from interacting with you from a standpoint of thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: this person thinks that they know more than me. It's like,
Speaker 1: maybe you do know more than them. Actually, maybe you
Speaker 1: know more than them even though you're twenty years younger
Speaker 1: or thirty years younger. But it doesn't matter. If they
Speaker 1: think that you think that, then that is a problem
Speaker 1: in terms of what they will do to operate at
Speaker 1: a high performing level or to engage fully with the team.
Speaker 1: And so that humility is just so important. There's no
Speaker 1: other way to do that. It's kind of like the
Speaker 1: kill them with kindness kind of thing to kind of
Speaker 1: allow people to disarm themselves from those defense mechanisms and
Speaker 1: instead focus on, Oh, this might be a different kind
Speaker 1: of leader, someone who's approaching this differently than the people
Speaker 1: I've reported to in the past.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and with that it brings us to the end
Speaker 2: of this episode. This is hacking your leadership. I'm Lorenzo
Speaker 2: and I'm Chris, and we'll talk to you all next time.