Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Nowey Jose podcast. Today I'm joined
Speaker 1: by Rat. We're digging a little bit deeper into Marsianism.
Speaker 1: I know we had Tiller on here last time, one
Speaker 1: of the patrons, but had someone hit me up and said, hey,
Speaker 1: they wanted to talk a little bit more about Martianism.
Speaker 1: They made a compelling case for it, and so I'm
Speaker 1: bringing them on now. But I look forward to seeing
Speaker 1: you guys in the show. Make sure subscribe hit that
Speaker 1: bell for and so will you get notifications when a
Speaker 1: new show drops or when I'm streaming. But we'll see
Speaker 1: you in the show.
Speaker 2: Story. I'm falling, nasty, don't leave, I'm starving at jos shrinking,
Speaker 2: storm back, shore up mother.
Speaker 3: Why listen say that on me? To fare the word back?
Speaker 3: Gave me see dear the sass. Oh oh.
Speaker 4: Oh, Hello, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Rat.
Speaker 1: Pleasure to have you with us. You want to take
Speaker 1: a moment to introduce yourself to my audience. Is the
Speaker 1: first time I've had the pleasure of talking with you,
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming for much of my audience it's probably
Speaker 1: the first time I get to know you as well.
Speaker 1: So if you who you know who you are or
Speaker 1: what you're about and kind of the sort of project
Speaker 1: you're working on, if anything, and the like, and I know,
Speaker 1: maybe even a little bit about kind of what you're
Speaker 1: interested and interest in the topic is today, maybe where
Speaker 1: you're coming from. As I said in the last episode,
Speaker 1: I don't want to lead anyone on. I know the
Speaker 1: intro might be a little bit the implication. There might
Speaker 1: be some implications, but just not to feel like I'm
Speaker 1: trying to present myself with anything I'm not. I am
Speaker 1: not particularly religious. I'm more interested in the historical aspect
Speaker 1: and maybe the symbolic aspect of a lot of this
Speaker 1: sort of stuff and how it dies into i know,
Speaker 1: the sort of a creepy stuff at the tippy top,
Speaker 1: or just maybe how we can learn to under incorporate
Speaker 1: it into understand our world.
Speaker 4: But RAT, pleasure to have you on the yours.
Speaker 5: Pleasure to be on. Thank you so much for having
Speaker 5: me on. Jose, Yeah, I'm Rat. At season of the
Speaker 5: rat On X and I host a show with subliminal
Speaker 5: messenger over on Rumble called Disagree to Agree. Mostly, I'm
Speaker 5: interested in biblical scholarship. I would say I am a proto,
Speaker 5: not proto, but sort of on the gnostic edge of things.
Speaker 5: I look into the history of the second and third century,
Speaker 5: mostly in terms of the Christianities that we're around there.
Speaker 5: I look into the history of those. I try and
Speaker 5: focus mostly on that. I do also focus on philosophy.
Speaker 5: Occasionally I dabble my toes in conspiracy theories and they're cool,
Speaker 5: they're cool. But I'm much more interested in like the
Speaker 5: macro effect that these things have. Like recently, me and
Speaker 5: subliminal have gotten into this, uh, this cult of cult
Speaker 5: of Airess, this this Discordian group that uh that introduced
Speaker 5: chaos essentially to a lot of a lot of the
Speaker 5: people around, and it's very involved in like the LSD
Speaker 5: LSD culture of the sixties and the seventies and and
Speaker 5: all that. So, you know, if you come over to
Speaker 5: our show disagree to agree on Rumble, you'll find a
Speaker 5: lot of various things, usually usually talking about cults and
Speaker 5: me particularly, I'll talk about scripture, and I'll talk about
Speaker 5: the history behind certain behind the Bible and everything that's
Speaker 5: kind of happened there. It's it's it's a big mess,
Speaker 5: and I love sorting through it.
Speaker 1: It's funny you mentioned Discordianism, and let's saybe I misunderstood you.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure if I recalled correctly, I can't remember
Speaker 1: that guy's name, the guy who created it, or one
Speaker 1: of the two people who created it. I think he
Speaker 1: had some odd connections to uh, to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Speaker 1: So it's a weird world.
Speaker 4: You can do that sort of stuff.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, he wrote the biography.
Speaker 5: He wrote the biography of Lee Harvey Oswald before the
Speaker 5: actual shooting.
Speaker 1: Yes, basically, I mean like it's a little bit of
Speaker 1: a simplification, but yeah, it's basically some guy and yeah,
Speaker 1: you have to check it out, but it's it's basically, yes,
Speaker 1: there's plausible deniability there, but yes, it's a fictionalized account
Speaker 1: of something very very similar. But many such cases, it's like,
Speaker 1: damn near every deep event there literally is like a
Speaker 1: stand in for that exact whatever. That is so creepy.
Speaker 1: But anyways, Uh, you said you kind of look at
Speaker 1: this from a biblical scholar type of perspective. I mean
Speaker 1: you said you're a little on the gnostic side of things,
Speaker 1: So I guess we talked a little bit this last episode.
Speaker 1: Are you Is it meaningful difference to you when you're
Speaker 1: saying gnostic or you can sing yourself kind of like
Speaker 1: a Marsianist or whatever or what what do you really
Speaker 1: I don't know where are you coming at from this.
Speaker 5: I don't consider myself a mars whatsoever, mostly because there
Speaker 5: right now that currently there are two factions of two
Speaker 5: factions of Marcianite Marsianism, which is the Marcian Night brand
Speaker 5: of Christianity or it is just the Essentially, it's the
Speaker 5: Marcianite Canon which was released in the second century, and
Speaker 5: then you know the the the scripture that like the
Speaker 5: the practices of the church that evolved from that scripture
Speaker 5: and that and that family of Christianity, so that that
Speaker 5: that's more of a religious ontaking, and I'm not really
Speaker 5: interested in that. I'm more interested in the historical impact
Speaker 5: that marcian had. I'm more gnostic, and I don't I'm
Speaker 5: not really afraid of that word as I used to be,
Speaker 5: because I just am willing to look at things a
Speaker 5: little bit more deeply. I'm willing to look at the
Speaker 5: Bible symbolically, you know, I'm willing to look at what
Speaker 5: is this capital t truth? And that's honestly what I'm
Speaker 5: searching for. And I think that's what a lot of
Speaker 5: people are searching for, even if they don't really know
Speaker 5: what word to put it to it.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so but you do gnser yourself gnostic.
Speaker 1: I know there's like different forms, so you're meaning in
Speaker 1: the religious sense. So I'm just trying to get a
Speaker 1: beat on where you're coming at from this, because I
Speaker 1: know there's kind of an odd distinction between Martianism and
Speaker 1: I know they both reject the Old Testament.
Speaker 4: You know, well, they're not rejected. They believe that it
Speaker 4: like exists.
Speaker 1: There might be different conceptions within it, different you know whatever,
Speaker 1: but they do believe the Old Testament God exists, but
Speaker 1: that he's not necessarily the good God, essentially, that he
Speaker 1: might be some sort of evil something or other. I know,
Speaker 1: the cosmology gets a little bit more complicated with you know, gnostic,
Speaker 1: but it's kind of a broad open term. It's almost
Speaker 1: a catch all. So I don't know, you probably could
Speaker 1: do a whole episode and trying to hammer down on
Speaker 1: what it is exactly you believe. But I guess they're
Speaker 1: just trying to establish your connection to Martianism. But you're
Speaker 1: kind of coming from a similar obviously, I would say
Speaker 1: many gnostics would probably attribute the Marsianism as some sort
Speaker 1: of I don't know, origin story of their belief system.
Speaker 1: I would I would assume in a certain sense, and
Speaker 1: that this is where the it derived from in many ways.
Speaker 1: Maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be
Speaker 1: my assumption as a non Gnostic that just like this
Speaker 1: is Martianism came out that early, you know, kind of
Speaker 1: was this a little bit I guess you could say,
Speaker 1: obviously depends on who you believe, whether it's the Christians
Speaker 1: of today that that was the rift or if that's
Speaker 1: the real thing. But I would assume many Gnostics you
Speaker 1: would would look at that as like some sort of
Speaker 1: early formation of their belief system.
Speaker 5: Maybe I'm wrong, so it's a little bit more complicated
Speaker 5: than that. I wish I could say we could all
Speaker 5: point it back to Marcian, But Marcian released his canon
Speaker 5: and around the only date that could be securely attached
Speaker 5: to Marcian is the year one forty AD, and that's
Speaker 5: roughly around the time that his canon was published and
Speaker 5: released and sent out and about gnosticism, especially like the
Speaker 5: proto Gnostics of the of the end of the first century,
Speaker 5: like the base Ladies Valentinia, Valentinius and especially the big
Speaker 5: famous one who I don't even know I who's a
Speaker 5: real person. But this guy named Simon Magus, who was
Speaker 5: noted in the Book of Acts that's in the Biblical
Speaker 5: in the canonical Bible, this Simon Magus, this Simon of
Speaker 5: Samaria person might have been a stand in for Like
Speaker 5: all future heresies, the keep in mind that the Book
Speaker 5: of Acts was written after Marcians Canon was was printed out. Now,
Speaker 5: scholars will disagree on this dating. Scholars disagree on the
Speaker 5: dating of all the books in the Bible, of course,
Speaker 5: but the Book of Acts, I am I'm fairly confident
Speaker 5: in saying it was written after Marcians Canon was published
Speaker 5: and widely released. And that alt with the edits to
Speaker 5: the Book of Luke, which was the same source material
Speaker 5: that Marcian got his Gospel from, the Gnostics of that
Speaker 5: time were much more varied, and it generally came from
Speaker 5: the the.
Speaker 6: Mixing of.
Speaker 5: Christianity, of the Jewish Christianity that Jesus kind of represents
Speaker 5: and the Twelve Apostles kind of represent with Alexandrian philosophies,
Speaker 5: which Alexandria was a heavily Greek influenced school, a city
Speaker 5: of schools essentially that was in Egypt. So it was
Speaker 5: like the mixed bag of Greek, Egyptian and Jewish philosophies
Speaker 5: that all came about in very very many different disparate
Speaker 5: forms that we would call Gnostics. And I mean, you
Speaker 5: can't point to two Gnostics in the second entry and
Speaker 5: find anything in common between the two. You you you know,
Speaker 5: the Valentinians versus the Basiladians versus the uh Sethians versus
Speaker 5: the Proto Mannicheans, all of them. They were the number
Speaker 5: of schools of Gnostic thought at the time, probably very greatly,
Speaker 5: much greater than the number of denominations there are today.
Speaker 5: And and certainly there's much more diversity of thought in
Speaker 5: the Gnostic traditions in those Gnostic traditions. Like you you know,
Speaker 5: you you go to two different, two different churches today,
Speaker 5: and you're they're going to essentially believe the same thing.
Speaker 5: It's like acceptably different. You know, Like someone might think
Speaker 5: baptism is best done when you're a kid, and some
Speaker 5: might think, well, baptisms should be done as an adult,
Speaker 5: but really they're all they're all agreeing that baptism should
Speaker 5: be done. While you look at the Gnostics of the
Speaker 5: second century, and it's like some of them are reject
Speaker 5: Jesus outright as a person, don't They don't think Jesus
Speaker 5: was real, you know. Or you look at some of
Speaker 5: the Gnostics from the second century and they'll they'll say
Speaker 5: that salvation only comes from realizing you yourself are Jesus,
Speaker 5: you know, or or you know the you get them
Speaker 5: the famous cosmology that you would find in books like
Speaker 5: the Pistis Sophia or the or the Secret Book of John,
Speaker 5: where you have this aroma uh, the monad who is
Speaker 5: God above all, when you have these emanations, and then
Speaker 5: this the final emanation being this Sophia, this personification of wisdom,
Speaker 5: who is a woman, and she tries to create on
Speaker 5: her own because she wishes to know more of God,
Speaker 5: and so she accidentally creates this this demi, this thing
Speaker 5: that we know as the Demi. Urgent calls it yaal
Speaker 5: de Beath, and she she's so frightened by it, she
Speaker 5: throws it out into the outer abyss, so that it
Speaker 5: could never know God, and it could never know the emanations,
Speaker 5: the divinity that is beyond it, and so it's left
Speaker 5: out in the abyss. This is ye how to both thing,
Speaker 5: and it thinks it's the only thing around. So it
Speaker 5: starts doing its own emanations, which are these angels and
Speaker 5: demons that you see in the Old Testament, and then
Speaker 5: it starts creating, and it creates the physical world. That's
Speaker 5: that's I mean, that's the varieties of Gnostic thought that
Speaker 5: we have in the second century. And then Marsian comes
Speaker 5: on actually right now, mid mid point of the second century,
Speaker 5: so it's actually after Gnostics have kind of set up
Speaker 5: their own churches. You know, what we call is gnostics
Speaker 5: really if you ask to basilady and what they refer
Speaker 5: to themselves as they'd call themselves a Christian all.
Speaker 4: Right, I guess maybe we should hone it a little bit.
Speaker 1: Even What is the distinction between naism and Marcianism generally narcissism.
Speaker 1: It seems like from my understanding, I know today it's
Speaker 1: kind of started to solidify in modern days of kind
Speaker 1: of the understanding of what it is. But from my understanding,
Speaker 1: it's kind kind of nosis means to know, So it
Speaker 1: is it's a the idea is to things your knowledge
Speaker 1: being revealed. You know, this is minder seeing a lot
Speaker 1: of people make illusions to the versus like some mystery
Speaker 1: schools are born this sort of stuff, other weird sort
Speaker 1: of thing. So I don't know what is really the
Speaker 1: tie that binds between all these different gnastic groups, but
Speaker 1: it seems like perhaps uh, Martianism is maybe a little
Speaker 1: bit more doesn't go into the NOSS necessarily, uh kind
Speaker 1: of keeps the U, I guess, finds a way to
Speaker 1: kind of go that guy is a bad guy.
Speaker 4: But we're not doing this through some sort of revelation.
Speaker 1: This is through you know, something else, and you kind
Speaker 1: of are able to kind of not completely throw the
Speaker 1: baby out with the bath water without whereas nosis kind
Speaker 1: of is just like, I mean, we're being revealed out here, baby,
Speaker 1: like you know, like I don't know you you kind
Speaker 1: of lay it out for me because it is kind
Speaker 1: of a think an odd thing for people to try
Speaker 1: to wrap their heads around. And I think then, especially
Speaker 1: if you're into the conspiracy world with an some of
Speaker 1: the symboliss, some symbolism that pops up so and the
Speaker 1: and I guess like let's be real like oh to
Speaker 1: know and like you know, knowledge being revealed like this
Speaker 1: all sounds like spook language to me. So it is
Speaker 1: like and now I'm sure there's you know, there's both
Speaker 1: sides of this. Maybe there's a positive side. I'm sure
Speaker 1: there was spooky stuff that was born out of the
Speaker 1: Gnostics that kind of very much in line with that
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But I guess what we're kind of
Speaker 1: driving at is like that, maybe a little bit more
Speaker 1: clarification with the key difference is maybe what's the tie
Speaker 1: that binds Nacissism, what differentiates it from Marcianism?
Speaker 4: YadA, YadA.
Speaker 6: Sure, I think the the best way to.
Speaker 5: Bind together the Gnostics of the Gnostics of Antiquity is
Speaker 5: just to understand that they're they're a heterodox theology, Heterodox
Speaker 5: meaning different than what is established Orthodox, and what is
Speaker 5: established Orthodox wasn't really established until the fourth century.
Speaker 4: The thing that like.
Speaker 5: Ties the Gnostics to it is really just different writings.
Speaker 5: So to understand, so I could paint a picture.
Speaker 6: Jesus died.
Speaker 5: Around eight thirty Common Era thirty whatever you want to
Speaker 5: refer to it as. Then you have a bunch of
Speaker 5: apostles running around. Some claim seventy, some claim twelve, some
Speaker 5: claim five hundred. You know, it really doesn't matter the
Speaker 5: number of apostles or disciples that are running around spreading
Speaker 5: the gospel.
Speaker 6: But just know that it is getting around.
Speaker 5: They're all being spread mostly to the people in Jerusalem,
Speaker 5: which is where Jesus did most of his ministry work
Speaker 5: around that area. And so when these things are spreading out,
Speaker 5: and we have this this figure named Paul, who very
Speaker 5: specifically went out to gentiles, who are these non Jewish
Speaker 5: communities to spread the gospel. Because Paul was like that Jesus,
Speaker 5: Jesus's Gospel is not for Jews only, but it's for everyone,
Speaker 5: you know. So Paul started writing these letters, he went
Speaker 5: out and did missionary work and went around to these
Speaker 5: different places. So we have a whole bunch of different
Speaker 5: startup traditions, and essentially all of Christianity at the time
Speaker 5: was a bunch of disparate secret societies. Like like when
Speaker 5: when people met together for church, they were meeting and
Speaker 5: people they were meeting in backyards. They weren't meeting at
Speaker 5: large buildings that we have today. They're there, they're meeting
Speaker 5: in secret, they're they're sharing ideas. And it was an
Speaker 5: oral tradition. It wasn't really anything written in the first century.
Speaker 5: There was no gospels written there, like like the the
Speaker 5: the common belief is that the Book of Mark was
Speaker 5: written maybe in seventy a d Like that's like the
Speaker 5: earliest people are willing to give it.
Speaker 6: I'm not really that. I don't think it was that early.
Speaker 5: I think it was probably into the second century, probably
Speaker 5: around one to ten once. But that being said, like
Speaker 5: there were no writings, it was all an oral tradition.
Speaker 5: Everything was spreading around, you know, in a very very
Speaker 5: localized fashion. So these different groups started coming up with
Speaker 5: different ideas and if you as you can probably assume,
Speaker 5: like I'm going to bring to I'm going to bring
Speaker 5: to this religion my background, my cultural background. A lot
Speaker 5: of them were Jewish, but a lot of them weren't.
Speaker 5: A lot of them were come from Greek schools of philosophy,
Speaker 5: a lot of them were Hellenists, a lot of them
Speaker 5: were Pagans, you know, they were adapting Christianity into their
Speaker 5: pagan ideas. And so you get a bunch of different,
Speaker 5: very very different churches popping up, very different types of Christianities.
Speaker 5: And so the only thing that really separates the no
Speaker 5: that binds them together is the fact that the Jewish
Speaker 5: Christians really won. They won in the second century, they
Speaker 5: won in the third century. They won in the fourth century.
Speaker 5: Marcians probably in the third century, but is in the
Speaker 5: second century he was still building speed. But in the
Speaker 5: third century he was probably the only real competitor to
Speaker 5: true Jewish Christianity, which is a pro Orthodox church, which
Speaker 5: is what we have today, the Orthodox idea, which which
Speaker 5: which marries the Old Testament with the New Testament and
Speaker 5: marries Jewish traditions with Christianity. Marsianism was really the only
Speaker 5: counter to that, which was this idea that Christianity can
Speaker 5: stand on its own. It doesn't need Old Testament, doesn't
Speaker 5: need Jewish tradition, doesn't doesn't care where you're from. All
Speaker 5: the thing is this is this is Christianity.
Speaker 6: That that's it.
Speaker 5: In fact, Christianity. The term Christianity could probably be pointed
Speaker 5: back to Marcian. They weren't really using that term until
Speaker 5: Marcian made it kind of famous.
Speaker 4: Okay, So Marcian was like the last holdout, so he
Speaker 4: the it.
Speaker 1: Obviously, it sounds like there is a distinct in a
Speaker 1: sense difference between the Gnostic traditions and Marsianism, But so
Speaker 1: far as the Gnostic or the some semblance of the
Speaker 1: Gnostic representatives, it seems that Marsians are the last holdout,
Speaker 1: so they kind of get a little bit of a
Speaker 1: knucks for that. But I guess we're here to talk
Speaker 1: about Marsianism and kind of we're kind of already a
Speaker 1: little bit leaning into this, creating this conception of looking
Speaker 1: at this as the Judaic Christians and the and the
Speaker 1: Gentile Christians and how these these factions clash and coalesce.
Speaker 1: And I think that very much is the story of
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here about Nacissism and Marsianism, which
Speaker 1: is kind of the focal point here. But I guess
Speaker 1: if you want to just kind of wherever you want
Speaker 1: to start with this, you can kind of take the
Speaker 1: the history, the founding, YadA, YadA. I mean, the hell
Speaker 1: you could probably go even before that, because I mean
Speaker 1: there might even be some interesting thoughts to be had
Speaker 1: on the idea of you know, this was a Jewish
Speaker 1: religion before and now this with the inclusion of Jesus,
Speaker 1: this became a unifying like.
Speaker 4: We're bringing the goy into this now.
Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 5: For the most part, Jesus came to Jerusalem and he
Speaker 5: spoke to Jews, and well, I mean, he was born
Speaker 5: in Bethlehem or wherever he was born, I don't really know,
Speaker 5: but he's his missionary. His work was done in Jerusalem.
Speaker 5: So most of the people who were following Jesus were
Speaker 5: naturally Jews. Even Paul, who was the one who spread
Speaker 5: Christianity to Gentiles, was a Jew. But if if we
Speaker 5: want to go, we want to look at Marcy. And
Speaker 5: Marcia was born probably around the last decade of the
Speaker 5: first century, and he was he was from Pontus, and
Speaker 5: if you don't know where that is, that's the northern
Speaker 5: part of Turkey of modern day Turkey. He he's he's
Speaker 5: called Marcian of Sinope, and Sinope is the like the
Speaker 5: topmost little part of Turkey that sticks outs out into
Speaker 5: the Black Sea. And Marcian was a wealthy man. He
Speaker 5: was a ship owner, a ship runner. He had a
Speaker 5: shipping company. And during that time, Rome needed you needed
Speaker 5: a lot of ships, especially because they were going to
Speaker 5: war with the Jews. I mean that there was the
Speaker 5: the Rebellion in seventy eighty, the Jewish Roman War that
Speaker 5: ended up with the trampling of Jerusalem, the destruction of
Speaker 5: the Temple and all that. And then there was another
Speaker 5: revolt in the in the early parts of the one hundreds,
Speaker 5: and then the Barcopa Rebellion which happened around that time
Speaker 5: as well.
Speaker 6: So Marcian was not was not struggling.
Speaker 5: He was doing very well monetary wise. And to add
Speaker 5: add matters to this, the area of Pontis that and
Speaker 5: as well as Galicia and Lysonia, the this Eastern Asia
Speaker 5: part that it was well removed from Jerusalem, it was
Speaker 5: well removed from the center of Rome. There were a
Speaker 5: lot of Greek speaking Jews there. But essentially it was
Speaker 5: like after these rebellions, it became sort of like it
Speaker 5: became a bad idea to to to be a Jew, right,
Speaker 5: I mean, it's like being a Muslim after the nine
Speaker 5: to eleven attacks, I mean just uncomfortable. So keeping that
Speaker 5: in mind, Marcian had gotten a hold of presumably he'd
Speaker 5: gotten a hold of some letters from Paul and decided
Speaker 5: and converted to Christianity. And it was around one point
Speaker 5: forty when he actually moved to Rome, and his idea
Speaker 5: of Christianity had been formulating in Pontus, separated from Jerusalem,
Speaker 5: and when he moved into Rome proper, he ran into
Speaker 5: a lot of Jewish Christians and They had a very
Speaker 5: different theology than him, a theology that is based on
Speaker 5: the Jamesian idea or the jack and idea, where there's
Speaker 5: this upholding of Jewish traditional laws and also circumcision. Marcian, Paul,
Speaker 5: they all really like to talk about circumcision because it
Speaker 5: was a horrible thing, and they tried to get people
Speaker 5: stop doing that. They tried to get people stop following
Speaker 5: the Jewish law because it leads to that and also
Speaker 5: leads to a whole bunch of other things, but we
Speaker 5: won't get into that. So he moved to Rome, he talked,
Speaker 5: he gave a whole bunch of money to the church.
Speaker 5: He donated a whole bunch of money to the church
Speaker 5: in Rome, and he stayed there for about five years.
Speaker 5: And this has assumed the time that he collected a
Speaker 5: bunch of the letters and kind of got his theology
Speaker 5: together and kind of came up with this idea of
Speaker 5: a new Testament, something that could clearly delineate Christianity from
Speaker 5: Jewish Judaism. And so he got this, and then he
Speaker 5: presented his ideas to the church in Rome, and they
Speaker 5: decided that he was a bad guy, really bad guy.
Speaker 5: They hated him. He's like the first person to ever
Speaker 5: really be excommunicated from the Christian Church. And they excommunicated
Speaker 5: him so hard they gave him his money back, and
Speaker 5: mind you, this was a gigantic donation. So they gave
Speaker 5: him all his money back, kicked him out, and uh,
Speaker 5: Marsion didn't stop there. He uh, he decided he's gonna
Speaker 5: keep going around and building up his own churches. Since
Speaker 5: he runs a ship company, shipping company, he can do
Speaker 5: that very efficiently, very effectively, much better than the Jews
Speaker 5: in Rome. And so he was going around, uh, starting
Speaker 5: churches and bringing this uh this direct appalling Christianity to
Speaker 5: these churches, and uh it it got really built really fast.
Speaker 5: It was the biggest contender to proto Orthodox churches in
Speaker 5: the third century. At some points it might have been
Speaker 5: even bigger than pro Orthodox Church. And that's where Marcianism
Speaker 5: kind of had its legs. And then the fourth century
Speaker 5: it kind of got all smashed away because Theodysseus and uh,
Speaker 5: what's what's his name, Augustine converted to Christianity, like Orthodox Christianity,
Speaker 5: and they figured out with the Nicene creed and the
Speaker 5: meeting and the nice meeting and Nicene they figured out
Speaker 5: how to uh put a put a stop to all
Speaker 5: these other different types of Christianity.
Speaker 4: Telling me the Jews won again by appealing to state power.
Speaker 4: Is that what you're telling me?
Speaker 1: That's what That's what I'm hearing, Uh history, Yeah, that
Speaker 1: is a although it is like I guess Christianity, but
Speaker 1: if you look at it from a depends on how
Speaker 1: you look at it, I guess.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: I did think one question that's come to mind with
Speaker 1: this Martianism and kind of including an Oscicism into this
Speaker 1: and kind of you even you mentioned how the obviously
Speaker 1: some of these and and even with Christianity, you know,
Speaker 1: the just normal Christianity, there was a lot of there
Speaker 1: was this you know, religious of other not religious as
Speaker 1: Jewish or Gentile divide, and that was also present in
Speaker 1: I assume things like Marsianism, and also in Nacissism, like
Speaker 1: you were mentioning before about a lot of these people
Speaker 1: came from Jewish traditions as well. So I'm just kind
Speaker 1: of curious on like, what are your thoughts on that
Speaker 1: dynamic where it's like, I don't know, especially maybe the
Speaker 1: world there's so many different splinter ideations where it is
Speaker 1: obviously not necessarily being Jewish would make it subter fute
Speaker 1: or change its perspective, but it would make it more
Speaker 1: amenable to the Old Testament version. Or maybe I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm reaching here, but I'm kind of curious. Is
Speaker 1: there some sort of interesting dynamic there, maybe almost subversive
Speaker 1: in a certain sense to the ultimate goal? Like, what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that dynamic I'm kind of pointing to.
Speaker 5: Okay, So, yeah, So Jesus brought to himself to Jerusalem,
Speaker 5: and the Jews, kind of the converts, the Jewish converts,
Speaker 5: picked up on it, and they they they really wanted
Speaker 5: to implement their their own traditions to Christianity, so they
Speaker 5: found a way to do it, and they wrote books
Speaker 5: that made it easier to do so, made Jesus say
Speaker 5: things like, uh, not a tittle of the law will
Speaker 5: pass away, and all this, all that stuff, all things
Speaker 5: that are unverifiable, right that these things that written in
Speaker 5: the canonical Bible, they're unverifiable things that Jesus said. That
Speaker 5: that also being said, imagine bringing to now Alexandria, which
Speaker 5: is the home of Gnosticism, also the home of Alexandrian philosophies,
Speaker 5: Greek philosophy, Egyptian philosophy. Now, imagine bringing the Old Testament
Speaker 5: to Alexandria in Egypt, where there there's a huge story
Speaker 5: at in the Torah about how the God of the
Speaker 5: Jews sent whole bunch of plagues into Egypt and killed
Speaker 5: the whole bunch of kids in Egypt and just demolished
Speaker 5: Egypt as as they knew it back then, just to
Speaker 5: take these people out of Egypt. And so these Alexandria's,
Speaker 5: these Egyptians read that and were like, oh, this just
Speaker 5: kind of shit.
Speaker 6: This is a piece of shit, This is kind of
Speaker 6: fucked up. They're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, we have
Speaker 6: a deity.
Speaker 5: We have a deity and his color is red, which
Speaker 5: happens to be the color that you guys turned the sea,
Speaker 5: you guys turned the sea red. We have a deity
Speaker 5: whose color is red, and he also does plagues and
Speaker 5: kills firstborns and all that stuff.
Speaker 6: And his name is Seth.
Speaker 5: His name is set or Seth, you know. And so
Speaker 5: this idea of uh Satan actually comes from set I mean,
Speaker 5: that's that's the name. And so Alexandrian, Alexandrian Egyptians read
Speaker 5: that and we're like, well, yeah, you guys got a
Speaker 5: little bit messed up. But Jesus is cool. And there
Speaker 5: Jesus is even talking about how no one knew the
Speaker 5: Father before him, like no one knew of God, not
Speaker 5: even those in the past, not even the prophets, and
Speaker 5: you know, so they're like, well, Jesus is talking about
Speaker 5: some greater truth than than Judaism, then obviously there's a
Speaker 5: greater truth than Judaism. And so they married Jesus' ideas
Speaker 5: into Alexandrian philosophies. You get Sethianism, you know, Greek philosophies,
Speaker 5: you get Basiladianism or Valentinianism.
Speaker 6: So you get a whole bunch of these.
Speaker 5: Different philosophies that come about because they all realize that
Speaker 5: the Jewice God kind of sucks. And you know, for
Speaker 5: for the Christians in your audience, I mean, you really
Speaker 5: don't need to go much further than the Bible to
Speaker 5: really lies that in the case you really doesn't.
Speaker 4: Wasn't one of Joshua's crusades.
Speaker 1: I believe they literally I'm sure there'll be some Christian
Speaker 1: upset in the in the comments, but uh, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure they literally killed everybody and then God told them
Speaker 1: to keep the animals and essentially any of the clean women,
Speaker 1: the women that are pure or whatever. And if you
Speaker 1: kind of look get into the weeds of what that
Speaker 1: means is that means they literally would have had to
Speaker 1: go women by women checker hymen, because that was how
Speaker 1: they the the understanding of that time was and if
Speaker 1: it was not, if it was broken, if it was not.
Speaker 4: Or if it was broken, they would murder her.
Speaker 1: So this is the sort of this is the sort
Speaker 1: of and this many times, I mean joshuaent on multiple crusades.
Speaker 1: I know we some people today go oh their nephlom
Speaker 1: or come up with some crazy reason to be like
Speaker 1: how it was okay, but like, I don't know. That
Speaker 1: sounds kind of like rampant mass slaughter to me. But
Speaker 1: who am I I'm not God.
Speaker 4: Right right right?
Speaker 5: I know, because God is. Because God is sovereign, you know,
Speaker 5: he's allowed to tell you to commit genocide. It's fine
Speaker 5: if he says it like Saul was told to commit cenocide.
Speaker 5: He was told to kill every man, woman and child,
Speaker 5: all the beasts of the beasts of the field and
Speaker 5: all the just wipe everything clean. Right, Saul didn't do that,
Speaker 5: And uh, you know it's Saul is a bad guy
Speaker 5: because he didn't do that. So that's what the Old
Speaker 5: Testament tells you. And of course, you know, you look
Speaker 5: at the New Testament and says Jesus says love your
Speaker 5: love your enemy, So there there must be some sort
Speaker 5: of problem here, right. And then of course, one of
Speaker 5: the one of the most famous Marcian claims, and he
Speaker 5: wrote the Antithesis, which is pretty much just a bunch
Speaker 5: of comparisons between Old Testament God and Jesus. One of
Speaker 5: one of his favorites is Elisha. This story of Elisha
Speaker 5: coming he'd just been appointed to be the prophet by Elijah,
Speaker 5: who was taken who knows where, and he comes back
Speaker 5: to and he comes across a group of kids. And
Speaker 5: mind you, the Bible says that these are a group
Speaker 5: of kids, and the wording you specifically is like kids
Speaker 5: ages like five to twelve, you know, like like these
Speaker 5: are kids, you know, middle schoolers, you know, not smart,
Speaker 5: just kids.
Speaker 6: These kids.
Speaker 5: Know that Elijah went up to heaven, you know, and
Speaker 5: so they pick on Elisha because Elijah was the big
Speaker 5: prophet and this new guy, he's bald, and so they say,
Speaker 5: go up, baldy, go up, you know, making fun of him,
Speaker 5: which is pretty funny and Elishah so offended and hurt
Speaker 5: scared because these little kids are making fun of him,
Speaker 5: call to Yahweh and says, please please do so something
Speaker 5: about these little children that are making me so scared
Speaker 5: and making me hurt my feelings. And so God sends
Speaker 5: to she bears to mall fifty two children, killing them all.
Speaker 5: And contrast that to Jesus, who when the disciples tried
Speaker 5: to send the children away, Jesus said, no, send the
Speaker 5: children to me. You have to come to me as
Speaker 5: a child. In fact, like like, like Jesus loved the children.
Speaker 5: It's a very big contrast here. And you know, there's
Speaker 5: a whole bunch of other things too. And in fact,
Speaker 5: the reason why I stumbled across Marcie is because I
Speaker 5: found so many of these small details within the New
Speaker 5: Testament that kind of point to the Old Testament. Dad
Speaker 5: is being being the bad guy, being the ultimate bad guy.
Speaker 5: Like the Book of Jude, the Letter of Jude, which
Speaker 5: is one of my favorite letters because it illustrates things
Speaker 5: that I have been pushing at for a little while.
Speaker 5: But the Letter Jude here is mentions now I'm gonna
Speaker 5: try and find it.
Speaker 6: There is Uh.
Speaker 5: This is when when the archangel Michael disputed with the
Speaker 5: devil and argued about the body of Moses, he did
Speaker 5: not dare to bring a condemnation of slander against him,
Speaker 5: but said, the Lord rebuke you. And so I thought
Speaker 5: about that, and I had done some looking into it.
Speaker 5: What is that referencing? That is referencing a very specific
Speaker 5: event that happens in Deuteronomy. Now Moses himself is you know,
Speaker 5: he was unable to go to the Promised Land because
Speaker 5: he broke the rules. We won't get into that. It's
Speaker 5: it's just more pettiness from the deity of the Old Testament.
Speaker 6: I call him the law Bringer.
Speaker 4: He like eight man or something. Petty. He was someone
Speaker 4: like you did this and you weren't supposed to, and
Speaker 4: it's like shit, you got me.
Speaker 5: I forget what it was, all right, all right, So
Speaker 5: long story short. Moses was told once to hit a
Speaker 5: rock and water came from the rock, so he did that.
Speaker 5: The second time he was told to ask the rock
Speaker 5: to give water, and Moses hit the rock. Uh.
Speaker 6: So Moses messed up. Yeah, he broke the rule. It's
Speaker 6: petty and so.
Speaker 5: Yahweh takes Moses up onto the mountain and says, look
Speaker 5: at the Promised Land. That's the closest you're gonna get
Speaker 5: to the Promised Land. Now you have to die. And
Speaker 5: so Moses dies. We don't know how, but Jewish tradition
Speaker 5: tells us it's the kiss of death, like Yahweh gives
Speaker 5: him literally a kiss of death. Yahweh murders Moses, and
Speaker 5: of course Yahweh's sovereigns, so he could do what he wants.
Speaker 5: But but it also says that Yahweh buries Moses in
Speaker 5: a place that no one else knows. Jude here says
Speaker 5: archangel Michael argued with the devil and argued about the
Speaker 5: body of Moses and where it was located. Why would
Speaker 5: the devil know where the body of Moses is located?
Speaker 5: I thought, Yahweh only knew where the body of Moses
Speaker 5: was located. Hmm, well, obviously, yeah, we just told the
Speaker 5: devil for no reason. Why else would that happen? But
Speaker 5: it was things like this, And then what's another one? Oh,
Speaker 5: a great one is the temptation story in the in
Speaker 5: the in the Gospel of Matthew, and I pulled up
Speaker 5: real quick, I switched over and I pulled up the
Speaker 5: wrong one. But essentially this is after Jesus got baptized
Speaker 5: by John the Baptist, and he went out and to
Speaker 5: the wilderness for forty days, and he was tempted by
Speaker 5: the devil. And so the devil took him out and
Speaker 5: showed he knew Jesus was starving. It was forty days
Speaker 5: of fasting, you know, he said turn the rocks into bread,
Speaker 5: and just said, I'm not going to do that, right,
Speaker 5: And then and then the devil took him up on
Speaker 5: top of the temple and said, if you're the son God,
Speaker 5: threw yourself down right. And so you think, well, why
Speaker 5: is the devil able to go on top of the temple.
Speaker 5: I thought the temple was the holy place, the seat
Speaker 5: of God himself, right, but the devil is just allowed
Speaker 5: to freely go out there. Well, the devil is, you know,
Speaker 5: devil works for God. You know, again, apologetics ways of
Speaker 5: just blindly looking over the obvious that everyone else sees
Speaker 5: when it's pointed out. And then you know, Jesus obviously
Speaker 5: is like, I'm not going to throw myself down here,
Speaker 5: I right, And then the devil takes him up to
Speaker 5: a high place and it assumed a very high mountain.
Speaker 5: Mind you keep in mind, this whole event is fictional.
Speaker 5: We don't know if any of this happened.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 5: Now it's claimed that the Gospels are eyewitness testimonies, they're not.
Speaker 5: There's no way to know if this event actually happened.
Speaker 5: This is a fictionalized story about Jesus. This shouldn't affect
Speaker 5: Now another addendum, this shouldn't affect your faith in Jesus.
Speaker 5: The fact that these are fictionalized stories shouldn't change your faith.
Speaker 5: But if you're not mature enough in your faith to
Speaker 5: understand that, then I'm sorry. So the devil then takes
Speaker 5: them up to a very high mountain and says, look
Speaker 5: at all these lands, all these nations, and he shows
Speaker 5: them all the nations. He says, all these are mine,
Speaker 5: and I could give them to you if you just bow,
Speaker 5: you just bend your knee to me. Jesus says, I'm
Speaker 5: not going to do that, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 5: But it kind of gives away there. It's like, well,
Speaker 5: at what point in the Old Testament does yahweh give
Speaker 5: up all of the all of the nations to someone else.
Speaker 5: It's like it's like the entire Old Testament. You always like,
Speaker 5: the whole of the earth is mine, the nations are mine,
Speaker 5: everything is mine. At what point, at any of this
Speaker 5: does he always say, oh, well, the devil can you
Speaker 5: can have it instead? Or is the devil lying? If
Speaker 5: the devil is lying, then why didn't Jesus say you're lying? No,
Speaker 5: what is in fact being said here is subtle. It
Speaker 5: got past a lot of people, I'm assuming, but it's
Speaker 5: saying here that the devil is the ruler of all
Speaker 5: the nations, the god of this land. In fact, other
Speaker 5: places in the New Testament say the God of this world,
Speaker 5: and they refer to him very negatively. It's implied that
Speaker 5: the God of this world is the devil. Well, at
Speaker 5: no point in any scripture are you gonna find Yahweh
Speaker 5: referring to himself as anything but the God of this world.
Speaker 5: So the New Testament, you don't have to go farther
Speaker 5: than the New Testament, canonical New Testament to realize, oh,
Speaker 5: Yahweh from the Old Testament, this Jewish deity, this Jewish
Speaker 5: pagan war deity, this Jewish pagan war desert storm deity,
Speaker 5: is actually the devil.
Speaker 6: He's actually the the.
Speaker 5: Tempter he is the one who set out laws that
Speaker 5: are impossible to fulfill so that he can judge you
Speaker 5: and send you to hell. That's what the New Testament
Speaker 5: is saying. And uh, you don't really need to cross
Speaker 5: your eyes to figure it out. You just need someone
Speaker 5: to point these things out and say and look at
Speaker 5: him rationally and think, oh, is that what's going on?
Speaker 5: So there's already a war in the writings of the
Speaker 5: New Testament between Christians and Jews, and the proto Orthodox
Speaker 5: job in the first, second and third century is to
Speaker 5: convince people there are there is no war between the Christians.
Speaker 6: And the Jews. In fact, there is There's never been
Speaker 6: a war.
Speaker 5: And so they write the Book of Acts in probably
Speaker 5: about one point fifty one sixty uh to marry this
Speaker 5: character Paul to the Jewish Christian tradition. They make Paul
Speaker 5: out to be this uh, this Salman and that you know,
Speaker 5: the whole Book of Acts reads much more like a
Speaker 5: Homeric epic than it does Jewish scripture or even an
Speaker 5: early Christian uh stylings. Right, it's it's it's all about this,
Speaker 5: this journey of Paul. He even he even climbs into
Speaker 5: a bucket and escapes down the side of a wall
Speaker 5: in a being lowered down at a bucket.
Speaker 6: It's fun.
Speaker 5: So they changed this the story of Paul. They create
Speaker 5: this character who was mind you, he Paul was famous,
Speaker 5: He was well known by this time. I take more
Speaker 5: stance of the like that there was a snowball of
Speaker 5: doctrine that came about because Paul wrote a lot of
Speaker 5: these letters in the forties through this through fifty five,
Speaker 5: which is when he died. And uh so he was
Speaker 5: sending out these letters to a bunch of churches, and
Speaker 5: these churches were rewriting them and reprinting them and sending
Speaker 5: them out to different people. So Paul got around. And
Speaker 5: it wasn't until Marciene kind of compiled it all together
Speaker 5: and presented the New Testament that the pro Orthodox were like, okay,
Speaker 5: we need to deal with this. So they wrote acts
Speaker 5: and to make Paul a flawed person. And then they
Speaker 5: rewrote all of the letters that Paul wrote, and I
Speaker 5: added a few more in order to make his ideas
Speaker 5: marry better with pro Orthodox views. This Judaeo Christian idea.
Speaker 4: Uh okay.
Speaker 1: Well, also kind of one of the one thing I
Speaker 1: was kind of driving at is kind of even further
Speaker 1: going down that like faction within factions within factions. I
Speaker 1: was kind of curious, maybe there's nothing there the dynamic
Speaker 1: of like within these you know, ones that have you
Speaker 1: forsaken the Judaic God, the essentially the Judaic components that
Speaker 1: have come come around to them were there. I'm assuming
Speaker 1: they were probably splits there where maybe they found ways
Speaker 1: to try to pull it a little bit back more
Speaker 1: toward tradition or whatever. Was there something along those lines
Speaker 1: or am I reaching there? Because I could kind of
Speaker 1: see perhaps a dabbling of certain demographics getting mixed into
Speaker 1: that and and maybe some interesting mixes there perhaps kind
Speaker 1: of similar to how we were getting at with I
Speaker 1: guess Christianity in how they kind of won over there
Speaker 1: by appealing to the state. Maybe they they kind of
Speaker 1: infiltrated some of the the ones who you know or forsook,
Speaker 1: which kind of was kind of a little bit what
Speaker 1: I was driving out earlier, were some of the weird,
Speaker 1: spooky elements out there that you can kind of get
Speaker 1: into with that you might see especially among the elite
Speaker 1: and symbolism when it comes to nacissism and stuff. So
Speaker 1: I didn't know if there was something maybe to that element,
Speaker 1: if that, you know, there was a subversion of of
Speaker 1: of sorts, that was a that occurred in a lower
Speaker 1: even lower factional level, because inevitably there are going to
Speaker 1: be in these whether it be Marsianism or whether it
Speaker 1: be narcissism that's forsaken the Old Testament God, there are
Speaker 1: going to be Jewish elements, I guess, or Judaic people
Speaker 1: who did either did used to believe or maybe even
Speaker 1: someone might be lying or whatever, or just they used
Speaker 1: to believe that, and so their innate biases might cause
Speaker 1: certain riffs, may be i'd reaching, or whether it be
Speaker 1: riffs or maybe be straight up subversion.
Speaker 4: Was there any am I reaching there? Did you see
Speaker 4: anything along those lines?
Speaker 5: I'm just kind of curious, like within Gnostic Christian traditions
Speaker 5: or within more Judaic Christian traditions.
Speaker 4: I'm talking sure, I guess maybe I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't have the the language like a when you
Speaker 1: say proto orthodox, are you meaning like the is that
Speaker 1: the that's not the Martianisms?
Speaker 4: Is that they're you talking versions?
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, what I'm talking about is the like the Gnostics,
Speaker 1: the Martianisms, the ones who have said essentially said, you
Speaker 1: know essentially don't jive with the Old Testament God Like
Speaker 1: within those elements, there's obviously going to be people who
Speaker 1: used to believe that, used to believe in the Judaic
Speaker 1: God that have come over into that line of thinking. Now,
Speaker 1: I was just kind of curious where they're interesting factions
Speaker 1: within that, within those groups that have occurred from that dynamic,
Speaker 1: where there almost becomes this gentile Jewish divide within that
Speaker 1: in and of itself on a lower level, I guess.
Speaker 5: Huh, I'll be honest, I wish I could have looked
Speaker 5: into that more. You know, a lot of these the
Speaker 5: problem with a lot of these Gnostic traditions is when
Speaker 5: you look into them, you run into a lot of
Speaker 5: brick walls. The fact that most of their writings have
Speaker 5: been burned, or their churches have been crumbled, or their
Speaker 5: congregations have been scattered. You know, the traditions that we
Speaker 5: get are very, very broken up. And we have the
Speaker 5: pleasure of having these late second century and third century heresiologists,
Speaker 5: these people whose whole job is to point out heresies
Speaker 5: and to like tear them down, and we have the
Speaker 5: pleasure of relying on these very biased works to give
Speaker 5: us an illustration of what they believed, what these Gnostic
Speaker 5: traditions believed. We have Eranius, who wrote a whole bunch
Speaker 5: against heresies, you know, and then we have the anonymous
Speaker 5: author of against all heresies. We have Tertullian. In the
Speaker 5: second century, we have Origin who wrote against a bunch
Speaker 5: of heresies, who was also himself called a heretic. But
Speaker 5: then later they were like, all right, never mind, he's okay.
Speaker 5: Now Adamantius, who was a which was the name given
Speaker 5: to this author who wrote a whole polemic against different
Speaker 5: types of gnosticism at the time. And we don't really
Speaker 5: have the Gnostics writings. We have quotes of the Gnostics
Speaker 5: writings in herosiologist texts, which is how the Marcie Knight
Speaker 5: the this New Testament, the Marcian Knight got New Testament
Speaker 5: came about which it was reconstructed entirely from quotations. Because
Speaker 5: he caused such a stir. People hated him so much
Speaker 5: they wrote out is almost, you know, almost everything in
Speaker 5: his New Testament. They wrote it all out and were like,
Speaker 5: this guy sucks, and this is why, you know, like
Speaker 5: the look at this, he's a bad He's a bad dude. Right,
Speaker 5: So we have access to those writings that are writings
Speaker 5: about Marcian same way we have access to writings about
Speaker 5: Gnostics traditions.
Speaker 6: So without the Nakhamadi.
Speaker 5: Corpus, the Nakhammadi Library, which is a whole bunch of
Speaker 5: different writings from these Gnostic traditions, without the nag Kamadi,
Speaker 5: we would actually have nearly no access to their actual thoughts,
Speaker 5: their actual ideologies, their actual theologies. That also being said,
Speaker 5: and going back to to your question, I almost feel
Speaker 5: like there was no need. Maybe there was an attempt
Speaker 5: at Jewish subterfuge, which you know we always yeah, you know.
Speaker 6: We all keep it clear.
Speaker 1: I kind of left an out too of like maybe
Speaker 1: not even necessarily subterfuge. I could just see innate biases,
Speaker 1: you know, making a play there as well.
Speaker 6: But go on, yeah, well, I mean playing on that idea.
Speaker 5: It's almost as if it didn't matter because the whole traditions,
Speaker 5: these whole traditions, these whole families of Christianities were demolished
Speaker 5: and wiped out by the by the end of the
Speaker 5: third century and going into the fourth century, they're no
Speaker 5: longer a thing. So without an Orthodox Church, without this
Speaker 5: Catholic Catholic Church without this singular institution kind of taking
Speaker 5: up the entirety of Christianity. It could be that the
Speaker 5: diversity was the way to go in terms of preventing
Speaker 5: all sorts of these breakups, because I mean, if your
Speaker 5: intent is to undermine a group of people, you can
Speaker 5: do it if they're all one group of people. But
Speaker 5: if they're thousands of different groups of people, it's a
Speaker 5: little bit trickier, you know. I mean, I imagine from
Speaker 5: the perspective of some sort of cabal or you know,
Speaker 5: sort of insidious actors. You know, you're gonna have a
Speaker 5: lot more trouble influencing a vast amount of groups than
Speaker 5: you are if you get every group into one umbrella,
Speaker 5: if you get all of them to come to the
Speaker 5: niceing table and agree on a specific thing like this
Speaker 5: is how we're gonna go about it from now on.
Speaker 5: You get them all in and then oh then you
Speaker 5: got free access to aeroone. But until then you don't
Speaker 5: really have access to them. And that also leads into
Speaker 5: another little point. I mean, we can see that there
Speaker 5: were it wasn't one group of Jewish Christians, right, It
Speaker 5: wasn't one group of these proto orthodox people, right, it
Speaker 5: was more than one group, because we have four different Gospels,
Speaker 5: and there have four different interpretations of the events that
Speaker 5: happened to Jesus, and we have a bunch of different
Speaker 5: letters that don't necessarily agree on all sorts of things.
Speaker 5: In fact, I could go back to Jude the letter
Speaker 5: of Jude, which I have theorized that Jude is calling
Speaker 5: Paul directly homo and is referring to the Pauline crowd.
Speaker 5: That is unproven, un unprovable, but I mean, I feel
Speaker 5: like I have a strong case for it. So Jude's
Speaker 5: calling Paul a homo. And you know, and this is
Speaker 5: in the first century. You know, the Apostles themselves don't
Speaker 5: even get along with each other. And they're all Jewish
Speaker 5: christ Jewish Christians. So looking at at the canonical Bible,
Speaker 5: we have four different gospels. They were not written by
Speaker 5: the same author, They were written in the second they
Speaker 5: were written between the first and second century, they were
Speaker 5: finalized within the second century, edited, and all that stuff.
Speaker 5: So you have four different Jewish Christian traditions. And John,
Speaker 5: the Book of John, is much more gnostic than the
Speaker 5: other three, but the other three are are are quote
Speaker 5: unquote biographical. I don't know why I do quote unquote
Speaker 5: and do air quotes, but you know, they they they're
Speaker 5: different groups of these proto orthodox Christians that came together
Speaker 5: at the Nicene create at the in Nicia, and they
Speaker 5: came to a conclusion like this is how we can
Speaker 5: marry all of these ideas together and kick out all
Speaker 5: the folks that are saying that that my God is bad.
Speaker 5: You know, It's like it was a multi purpose committee,
Speaker 5: and one of those purposes was to get all the
Speaker 5: juice together, speak out all the non juice are the
Speaker 5: people who don't play along, and then get the emperor
Speaker 5: to give us the okay to make it a state religion,
Speaker 5: and then the Odysseus later on finalize it put into action.
Speaker 1: All right, kind of one less and this is a
Speaker 1: little bit less about Marsianism, but kind of I guess
Speaker 1: it is probably more about narcissism and and kind of
Speaker 1: a little bit on kind of what I was driving
Speaker 1: at in the previous question. I just kind of want
Speaker 1: to get your thoughts and kind of what I've teased
Speaker 1: that a little bit is I've noticed from some of
Speaker 1: my some of the conspiracy stuff I've dug into kind
Speaker 1: of like peeking behind the veil of like the weirdness
Speaker 1: when you get into like, am I seeing the weird elite, pedophile,
Speaker 1: satanic whatever the fuck? Like, Once you start into that realm,
Speaker 1: sometimes gnostic symbolism does seem to rear its head for
Speaker 1: some weird reason. And that's kind of what I was
Speaker 1: driving a little bit with that question, like was there
Speaker 1: some sort of subversion?
Speaker 4: Was there is there? Who knows?
Speaker 1: Maybe even just ironic thing this like as above so
Speaker 1: below for example, like one one example that comes to
Speaker 1: mind is the church of a Brassis or a Praxis
Speaker 1: that was in the dude you know, involved in the
Speaker 1: True Treaux Affair, which you know was literally child trafficking
Speaker 1: and like the most the most sinister of things you
Speaker 1: can imagine.
Speaker 4: But who knows.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's some sort of weird inversion where like maybe
Speaker 1: a Braxis is the bad guy. I don't evenmb who
Speaker 1: in practice he really even is in gnocissism, particularly depending
Speaker 1: on your flavor, But at my point being who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe this is their reversal of it, their way, like, oh,
Speaker 1: we are worshiping the bad guy, but we're gonna look
Speaker 1: at it through the lens of these people who tried
Speaker 1: to break away from us. And there's so many different
Speaker 1: ways that you could conceptualize why this would peek out.
Speaker 1: I mean, hell, they it is this like skin suit
Speaker 1: like you see with cargo cults, where they kind of
Speaker 1: they take the same thing and the same thing. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you'll even see similar things with a with they might
Speaker 1: use Greek or Roman god motifs, and it's the same
Speaker 1: concept Like it may not necessarily be through the lens
Speaker 1: of narcissism. You do see this lots of different times
Speaker 1: present itself in different I mean, you know, different weird
Speaker 1: conspiracies or whatever, where this sort of symbolism peaks through
Speaker 1: this religious overtones, and it may sometimes be directly of
Speaker 1: clearly gnostic influence. So I'm just kind of curious what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that? Just kind of is that
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think I mean, there are so
Speaker 1: many different branches of it. So that's kind of what
Speaker 1: I was driving with that question. Perhaps this is some
Speaker 1: sort of outgrowth of some sinister parts, or maybe this
Speaker 1: is just a you know, they're playing with symbolism, dabbling,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of pulling from all over the place
Speaker 1: kind of I guess a bit of a cultural appropriation
Speaker 1: from our Satanic elite.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I like Satanic elite as a term because
Speaker 5: when presented in this way, it kind of makes a
Speaker 5: lot of sense. But Satan, as we know it, is
Speaker 5: the god of this world and the according to the
Speaker 5: New Testament, right, Satan is the god of this world
Speaker 5: lower case G, and gnosticism is is ah is no
Speaker 5: Sis means knowledge is just the Greek word for knowledge.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: Demiurge means creator is just the Greek word for creator.
Speaker 5: And so when people refer to the demiurge, they're really
Speaker 5: referring to the Creator whatever they whatever that may be.
Speaker 5: And the Gnostic idea is that this demiurg is the
Speaker 5: god of this world. This world belongs to the demiurg,
Speaker 5: and gnostics also understand that dude's not good. I mean,
Speaker 5: you could look at it and I like the I
Speaker 5: like the fine tuning argument. It's this whole idea that
Speaker 5: the universe was set perfectly so that we can establish
Speaker 5: life and all of that and then and your but
Speaker 5: then it's like, oh, but why is it so messed up?
Speaker 5: Why is the world so fucked up? Well, it's because
Speaker 5: the creator is kind of fucked up. Creator's imperfect. So
Speaker 5: so the gnostics take that idea and they are, you know,
Speaker 5: the there's a choice at that point. We live in
Speaker 5: this reality where the God of this world is the
Speaker 5: God of material wealth, is the God of sacrifice, is
Speaker 5: the God of of law, is the God of is.
Speaker 5: You know, he's probably pretty broken after having lost this
Speaker 5: fight against Jesus. You know this, this this in the
Speaker 5: gnostic world view, that he had lost this fight to
Speaker 5: Jesus because he could not kill Jesus. Jesus came back,
Speaker 5: you know. So gnostics now have this choice. They they
Speaker 5: they either give up physical reality, give up physical material
Speaker 5: possessions and they worship, well, not necessarily give up physical
Speaker 5: material possessions, but they understand that like the physical realm
Speaker 5: is not the end all be all. Gnostics say, well,
Speaker 5: God is above the physical and is above this world
Speaker 5: and is not the God of this world, but is
Speaker 5: it completely different God entirely, and we want to live
Speaker 5: for that God. Right. And then there's the other side
Speaker 5: where these gnostics are saying, well, I understand all of this,
Speaker 5: but I want to appease the God of the material world,
Speaker 5: and so I will do so by following extremely closely
Speaker 5: what the god of this material world wants, which is
Speaker 5: a temple to his name, sacrifices to his name, burnt
Speaker 5: offerings to his name, murders to his name, and you know,
Speaker 5: devotion to his name. So if I want to get
Speaker 5: along with the god of this world, I got to
Speaker 5: get along with the god of this world. If I
Speaker 5: want to make get big in this world, well it
Speaker 5: just appease to the guy in charge. And the guy
Speaker 5: in charge is the demiurge is Yahweh is the Creator,
Speaker 5: is the Jewish God, and so they This gnosticism is
Speaker 5: kind of dangerous in that it kind of reveals sort
Speaker 5: of this this this this very black and white sort
Speaker 5: of thing like this like be good, understand that this
Speaker 5: is a simulation or this is not reality real and
Speaker 5: give up the things of this world, or understand that
Speaker 5: this is the simulation. And you can kind of you
Speaker 5: can just ask the boss say hey, give me a
Speaker 5: credit card, you know, give me give me a raise,
Speaker 5: and the boss will say, well, I'm gonna.
Speaker 6: Need some children. It's been a minute, yeah, and I
Speaker 6: need some blood.
Speaker 5: Right, And.
Speaker 6: So you have these not sticks who.
Speaker 5: And it is gnostics, right, I'm not I'm I'm not
Speaker 5: gonna front like they're they're gnostics, like the the Masons
Speaker 5: their gnostics. The the capitalists they're Jewish gnostics. They're they're
Speaker 5: using these this knowledge of the divine for their own
Speaker 5: gain in this physical reality. And the probably goes back
Speaker 5: for a long time. You know. Uh, it's uh an
Speaker 5: unfortunate reality.
Speaker 6: But it's kind of it's it's what I see.
Speaker 5: It's in terms of of these capitalist groups. Now I
Speaker 5: may have strayed a little further away from your question
Speaker 5: than initial, but yeah, that's the Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1: You got the main the main beats kind of what
Speaker 1: I was getting at that kind of answers answer that
Speaker 1: there's almost this bifurcation between them.
Speaker 4: Yes, you're giving, you're giving this ultimate choice.
Speaker 1: Uh, you can have temporary comfort or eternal whatever eternal Uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 4: What's a fulfillment.
Speaker 1: Perhaps eternal fulfillment I think would probably be the best
Speaker 1: way to look at it.
Speaker 4: Uh, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, even even if you think life's temporary, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Just I find it to be gross christ
Speaker 1: very iggy.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird, it's I know, you see these people
Speaker 1: who live for themselves, and it's like, it's funny because
Speaker 1: technically my worldview is like egoism. It is like, but
Speaker 1: it's like, also there's this weird paradox that comes in play.
Speaker 1: But it's like, but to be fulfilled and to have
Speaker 1: a happy life as an individual, it's like when it
Speaker 1: just makes sense to just have a wife, have my kids, Like,
Speaker 1: I know, that seems like and it's kind of held
Speaker 1: true so far, it's been the most fulfilling thing for me.
Speaker 1: Uh So, I don't know, the idea of gobbling up
Speaker 1: children and giving them to my overlords doesn't really I
Speaker 1: don't know, seems like I'd feel pretty bad amount myself.
Speaker 4: At the end of the day. It's I don't know
Speaker 4: how I would live myself even with a self centered philosophy.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's kind of whatever, it's a weird paradox, I guess,
Speaker 1: but like, I don't know, that doesn't seem like what
Speaker 1: I want to do.
Speaker 5: Right, right, and it's it's it's so it's sickening. But
Speaker 5: it's like, I mean, if you want to be a billionaire,
Speaker 5: you gotta you gotta do the billionaire things you know
Speaker 5: you want to. You want power in this world, you
Speaker 5: gotta go to the person who has power over this world.
Speaker 5: And that's that's essentially where this whole gnostic thing steps in,
Speaker 5: is this knowledge that, yeah, the God of this world
Speaker 5: is evil and I can say I worship the God.
Speaker 6: I worship God because it's the only God of this world.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: Uh So all of these billionaires can get away going
Speaker 5: to church knowing that they're worshiping yahweh. And unfortunately most
Speaker 5: of the people in church don't understand who they're worshiping
Speaker 5: because they are never pointed out.
Speaker 6: These things that I see is.
Speaker 5: Obvious, but a lot of a lot of it's very
Speaker 5: easy to apologetics your way out of seeing these obvious things. Now,
Speaker 5: Marcian himself came to this conclusion by taking a literal
Speaker 5: reading of the Old Testament, and that's kind of how
Speaker 5: I came to the conclusion I found Marcian after I
Speaker 5: found out these things. Marcian himself said that, uh he
Speaker 5: was talking when it when in talking about Jews. Now,
Speaker 5: mind you, this is after three failed rebellions. You got
Speaker 5: the Jewish Roman War, the I forget what the second
Speaker 5: one is in the early second century, and then the
Speaker 5: Barcopa in the middle of the second century. Uh, you
Speaker 5: have these three Jewish wars, and they're like, and Martian's
Speaker 5: just like, they're just doing the thing that their god
Speaker 5: tells them to do. I mean, they've always done it.
Speaker 5: Look at their look at their look at their scriptures.
Speaker 5: They're just a warring nation. And then he's and then
Speaker 5: he also said, but but their god is the god
Speaker 5: of this world, so it makes sense that they're gonna
Speaker 5: win out in the end. So why do why are
Speaker 5: we associating with that? We as should just remove ourselves
Speaker 5: from that, not be violent, not participate in any whatever
Speaker 5: that is, and just have our own thing. But even
Speaker 5: Marcian himself was like, yeah, the je's kind of got
Speaker 5: a leg up on us in terms of who runs
Speaker 5: this whole thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well, I appreciate having you on today.
Speaker 1: Let people know where they can find you at and
Speaker 1: if you have any final thoughts, anything you really want
Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, any any questions that you
Speaker 1: felt like we should have addressed today, you can you
Speaker 1: can hit that now as well.
Speaker 4: But floor as yours.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So, Marcian is deeply fascinating, and unfortunately we didn't get
Speaker 5: really into how much his existence breaks up entire the
Speaker 5: entire history of biblical scholarship. But just know that because
Speaker 5: of and you could look up modern scholarship. I can't
Speaker 5: go to deep into it right now or at a time.
Speaker 5: But Marcian's edition of the New Testament came with the
Speaker 5: Book of Luke and ten letters from Paul. Those are
Speaker 5: all written before. Those are all forms of those books
Speaker 5: prior to canonical Bible. So whatever we have in the Bible,
Speaker 5: he has an earlier version of them. The Bible that
Speaker 5: we have is an edited version of those letters and
Speaker 5: the Book of Luke or the Avgel the Evangelian, which
Speaker 5: is what Marcian called it, or the Gospel. So because
Speaker 5: of that, all scholarship on Paul is wrong. All messages
Speaker 5: we get from on Paul's letters are wrong. Everything we
Speaker 5: know about Paul is wrong. Marcians existence shows to us
Speaker 5: that the Bible and all the churches out there are wrong. Look,
Speaker 5: it's it's very unfortunate, it's very crazy, it's huge, But
Speaker 5: that Marcian. So I want to thank you so much
Speaker 5: for having me on Jose, giving Marcian a second chance,
Speaker 5: a second look through, because I think the setting around
Speaker 5: him is so fascinating the history of the church and
Speaker 5: the splinters that existed in it from the beginning of
Speaker 5: its creation till now. Even I think it's so deeply
Speaker 5: interesting and thank you again for giving it a second chance. Guys,
Speaker 5: if you want to find me and see a little
Speaker 5: bit more about what I do and I do, go
Speaker 5: deeper into Marcian on my own channel. You can find
Speaker 5: it Season of the Rat on Rumble. I do have
Speaker 5: a show with Subliminal Messenger on Rubble as well called
Speaker 5: Disagree to Agree. We were recently on Neffhlom Death Squad
Speaker 5: talking about the Discordian cult and this idea of the
Speaker 5: Golden Now check that out if you're all at all
Speaker 5: interested and give me a follow on x at Season
Speaker 5: of the Rat and uh Oh. I am a musician.
Speaker 5: I have an album by my album escape Saturn dot
Speaker 5: bandcamp dot com. It's called Where We Are and that's
Speaker 5: it for my plucks.
Speaker 4: Awesome.
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