WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.120 Hello, Welcome to the Nowey Jose podcast. Today I'm joined 2 00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:07.040 by Rat. We're digging a little bit deeper into Marsianism. 3 00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:09.720 I know we had Tiller on here last time, one 4 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:11.960 of the patrons, but had someone hit me up and said, hey, 5 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:14.560 they wanted to talk a little bit more about Martianism. 6 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:16.440 They made a compelling case for it, and so I'm 7 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.199 bringing them on now. But I look forward to seeing 8 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:21.079 you guys in the show. Make sure subscribe hit that 9 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:23.600 bell for and so will you get notifications when a 10 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:26.199 new show drops or when I'm streaming. But we'll see 11 00:00:26.239 --> 00:01:18.280 you in the show. 12 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:10.799 Story. I'm falling, nasty, don't leave, I'm starving at jos shrinking, 13 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:15.519 storm back, shore up mother. 14 00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:27.799 Why listen say that on me? To fare the word back? 15 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:48.640 Gave me see dear the sass. Oh oh. 16 00:01:53.840 --> 00:02:07.439 Oh, Hello, Welcome to the show. 17 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:07.799 Rat. 18 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:10.919 Pleasure to have you with us. You want to take 19 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:13.120 a moment to introduce yourself to my audience. Is the 20 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:15.840 first time I've had the pleasure of talking with you, 21 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.039 and I'm assuming for much of my audience it's probably 22 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:20.319 the first time I get to know you as well. 23 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:22.360 So if you who you know who you are or 24 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:24.400 what you're about and kind of the sort of project 25 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.000 you're working on, if anything, and the like, and I know, 26 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:30.680 maybe even a little bit about kind of what you're 27 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:34.840 interested and interest in the topic is today, maybe where 28 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:37.039 you're coming from. As I said in the last episode, 29 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:38.520 I don't want to lead anyone on. I know the 30 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:41.599 intro might be a little bit the implication. There might 31 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.000 be some implications, but just not to feel like I'm 32 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.960 trying to present myself with anything I'm not. I am 33 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:49.599 not particularly religious. I'm more interested in the historical aspect 34 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:51.400 and maybe the symbolic aspect of a lot of this 35 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:53.919 sort of stuff and how it dies into i know, 36 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:56.439 the sort of a creepy stuff at the tippy top, 37 00:02:57.280 --> 00:02:59.240 or just maybe how we can learn to under incorporate 38 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:00.800 it into understand our world. 39 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:05.520 But RAT, pleasure to have you on the yours. 40 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.120 Pleasure to be on. Thank you so much for having 41 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:11.479 me on. Jose, Yeah, I'm Rat. At season of the 42 00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:15.000 rat On X and I host a show with subliminal 43 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:20.080 messenger over on Rumble called Disagree to Agree. Mostly, I'm 44 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:26.800 interested in biblical scholarship. I would say I am a proto, 45 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:31.680 not proto, but sort of on the gnostic edge of things. 46 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:36.000 I look into the history of the second and third century, 47 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:40.280 mostly in terms of the Christianities that we're around there. 48 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:42.680 I look into the history of those. I try and 49 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:45.960 focus mostly on that. I do also focus on philosophy. 50 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:51.520 Occasionally I dabble my toes in conspiracy theories and they're cool, 51 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.560 they're cool. But I'm much more interested in like the 52 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:58.719 macro effect that these things have. Like recently, me and 53 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:03.360 subliminal have gotten into this, uh, this cult of cult 54 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:07.560 of Airess, this this Discordian group that uh that introduced 55 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:11.120 chaos essentially to a lot of a lot of the 56 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.719 people around, and it's very involved in like the LSD 57 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.879 LSD culture of the sixties and the seventies and and 58 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:19.879 all that. So, you know, if you come over to 59 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:22.000 our show disagree to agree on Rumble, you'll find a 60 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:25.720 lot of various things, usually usually talking about cults and 61 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.000 me particularly, I'll talk about scripture, and I'll talk about 62 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:34.279 the history behind certain behind the Bible and everything that's 63 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:36.879 kind of happened there. It's it's it's a big mess, 64 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:38.560 and I love sorting through it. 65 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:44.399 It's funny you mentioned Discordianism, and let's saybe I misunderstood you. 66 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.240 I'm pretty sure if I recalled correctly, I can't remember 67 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:48.079 that guy's name, the guy who created it, or one 68 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:49.600 of the two people who created it. I think he 69 00:04:49.639 --> 00:04:53.160 had some odd connections to uh, to Lee Harvey Oswald. 70 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:54.319 So it's a weird world. 71 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:55.720 You can do that sort of stuff. 72 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:59.439 Yeah, yeah, he wrote the biography. 73 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:03.399 He wrote the biography of Lee Harvey Oswald before the 74 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:04.240 actual shooting. 75 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:07.279 Yes, basically, I mean like it's a little bit of 76 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:10.920 a simplification, but yeah, it's basically some guy and yeah, 77 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:13.120 you have to check it out, but it's it's basically, yes, 78 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:18.279 there's plausible deniability there, but yes, it's a fictionalized account 79 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:21.279 of something very very similar. But many such cases, it's like, 80 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:24.439 damn near every deep event there literally is like a 81 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:29.680 stand in for that exact whatever. That is so creepy. 82 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:33.199 But anyways, Uh, you said you kind of look at 83 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:37.319 this from a biblical scholar type of perspective. I mean 84 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:39.639 you said you're a little on the gnostic side of things, 85 00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:45.800 So I guess we talked a little bit this last episode. 86 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.839 Are you Is it meaningful difference to you when you're 87 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:51.360 saying gnostic or you can sing yourself kind of like 88 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:54.800 a Marsianist or whatever or what what do you really 89 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:57.240 I don't know where are you coming at from this. 90 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:04.040 I don't consider myself a mars whatsoever, mostly because there 91 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.959 right now that currently there are two factions of two 92 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.800 factions of Marcianite Marsianism, which is the Marcian Night brand 93 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:16.120 of Christianity or it is just the Essentially, it's the 94 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:21.519 Marcianite Canon which was released in the second century, and 95 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.720 then you know the the the scripture that like the 96 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.600 the practices of the church that evolved from that scripture 97 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:33.000 and that and that family of Christianity, so that that 98 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:37.800 that's more of a religious ontaking, and I'm not really 99 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:40.759 interested in that. I'm more interested in the historical impact 100 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.879 that marcian had. I'm more gnostic, and I don't I'm 101 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.480 not really afraid of that word as I used to be, 102 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.000 because I just am willing to look at things a 103 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.279 little bit more deeply. I'm willing to look at the 104 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.720 Bible symbolically, you know, I'm willing to look at what 105 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:00.360 is this capital t truth? And that's honestly what I'm 106 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:01.879 searching for. And I think that's what a lot of 107 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:04.199 people are searching for, even if they don't really know 108 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:06.120 what word to put it to it. 109 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:10.800 Okay, all right, so but you do gnser yourself gnostic. 110 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:12.920 I know there's like different forms, so you're meaning in 111 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:14.720 the religious sense. So I'm just trying to get a 112 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:16.879 beat on where you're coming at from this, because I 113 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:19.399 know there's kind of an odd distinction between Martianism and 114 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:22.600 I know they both reject the Old Testament. 115 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:25.120 You know, well, they're not rejected. They believe that it 116 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:25.800 like exists. 117 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:29.160 There might be different conceptions within it, different you know whatever, 118 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:31.759 but they do believe the Old Testament God exists, but 119 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:34.240 that he's not necessarily the good God, essentially, that he 120 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.720 might be some sort of evil something or other. I know, 121 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:39.800 the cosmology gets a little bit more complicated with you know, gnostic, 122 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:42.600 but it's kind of a broad open term. It's almost 123 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:44.480 a catch all. So I don't know, you probably could 124 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.639 do a whole episode and trying to hammer down on 125 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:52.079 what it is exactly you believe. But I guess they're 126 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:55.079 just trying to establish your connection to Martianism. But you're 127 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.360 kind of coming from a similar obviously, I would say 128 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:01.600 many gnostics would probably attribute the Marsianism as some sort 129 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:06.079 of I don't know, origin story of their belief system. 130 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.680 I would I would assume in a certain sense, and 131 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:12.040 that this is where the it derived from in many ways. 132 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.079 Maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be 133 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:17.079 my assumption as a non Gnostic that just like this 134 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.040 is Martianism came out that early, you know, kind of 135 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:22.240 was this a little bit I guess you could say, 136 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:25.639 obviously depends on who you believe, whether it's the Christians 137 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.120 of today that that was the rift or if that's 138 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:31.079 the real thing. But I would assume many Gnostics you 139 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:33.159 would would look at that as like some sort of 140 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.759 early formation of their belief system. 141 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.399 Maybe I'm wrong, so it's a little bit more complicated 142 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.200 than that. I wish I could say we could all 143 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.320 point it back to Marcian, But Marcian released his canon 144 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.240 and around the only date that could be securely attached 145 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:53.559 to Marcian is the year one forty AD, and that's 146 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:56.679 roughly around the time that his canon was published and 147 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:02.759 released and sent out and about gnosticism, especially like the 148 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:05.799 proto Gnostics of the of the end of the first century, 149 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:12.519 like the base Ladies Valentinia, Valentinius and especially the big 150 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.000 famous one who I don't even know I who's a 151 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:18.879 real person. But this guy named Simon Magus, who was 152 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:22.320 noted in the Book of Acts that's in the Biblical 153 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.519 in the canonical Bible, this Simon Magus, this Simon of 154 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:30.480 Samaria person might have been a stand in for Like 155 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.879 all future heresies, the keep in mind that the Book 156 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:42.879 of Acts was written after Marcians Canon was was printed out. Now, 157 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.600 scholars will disagree on this dating. Scholars disagree on the 158 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:48.960 dating of all the books in the Bible, of course, 159 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:52.960 but the Book of Acts, I am I'm fairly confident 160 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:56.960 in saying it was written after Marcians Canon was published 161 00:09:57.000 --> 00:10:00.960 and widely released. And that alt with the edits to 162 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.799 the Book of Luke, which was the same source material 163 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:12.679 that Marcian got his Gospel from, the Gnostics of that 164 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:17.320 time were much more varied, and it generally came from 165 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:18.000 the the. 166 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:20.519 Mixing of. 167 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.679 Christianity, of the Jewish Christianity that Jesus kind of represents 168 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:32.159 and the Twelve Apostles kind of represent with Alexandrian philosophies, 169 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:40.559 which Alexandria was a heavily Greek influenced school, a city 170 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:42.919 of schools essentially that was in Egypt. So it was 171 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:49.960 like the mixed bag of Greek, Egyptian and Jewish philosophies 172 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:53.480 that all came about in very very many different disparate 173 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:57.200 forms that we would call Gnostics. And I mean, you 174 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:00.480 can't point to two Gnostics in the second entry and 175 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.159 find anything in common between the two. You you you know, 176 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:09.320 the Valentinians versus the Basiladians versus the uh Sethians versus 177 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:15.279 the Proto Mannicheans, all of them. They were the number 178 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:20.480 of schools of Gnostic thought at the time, probably very greatly, 179 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.559 much greater than the number of denominations there are today. 180 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:29.840 And and certainly there's much more diversity of thought in 181 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:34.559 the Gnostic traditions in those Gnostic traditions. Like you you know, 182 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:38.159 you you go to two different, two different churches today, 183 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.679 and you're they're going to essentially believe the same thing. 184 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:44.200 It's like acceptably different. You know, Like someone might think 185 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:47.480 baptism is best done when you're a kid, and some 186 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:49.840 might think, well, baptisms should be done as an adult, 187 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.600 but really they're all they're all agreeing that baptism should 188 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.639 be done. While you look at the Gnostics of the 189 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.679 second century, and it's like some of them are reject 190 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:03.799 Jesus outright as a person, don't They don't think Jesus 191 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:05.600 was real, you know. Or you look at some of 192 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:07.720 the Gnostics from the second century and they'll they'll say 193 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:13.879 that salvation only comes from realizing you yourself are Jesus, 194 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.279 you know, or or you know the you get them 195 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.279 the famous cosmology that you would find in books like 196 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:24.759 the Pistis Sophia or the or the Secret Book of John, 197 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:30.080 where you have this aroma uh, the monad who is 198 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.559 God above all, when you have these emanations, and then 199 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:39.559 this the final emanation being this Sophia, this personification of wisdom, 200 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:43.360 who is a woman, and she tries to create on 201 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.120 her own because she wishes to know more of God, 202 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:51.679 and so she accidentally creates this this demi, this thing 203 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:53.919 that we know as the Demi. Urgent calls it yaal 204 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:56.080 de Beath, and she she's so frightened by it, she 205 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:58.399 throws it out into the outer abyss, so that it 206 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:02.559 could never know God, and it could never know the emanations, 207 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:06.080 the divinity that is beyond it, and so it's left 208 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.080 out in the abyss. This is ye how to both thing, 209 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.080 and it thinks it's the only thing around. So it 210 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.639 starts doing its own emanations, which are these angels and 211 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.759 demons that you see in the Old Testament, and then 212 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.720 it starts creating, and it creates the physical world. That's 213 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.240 that's I mean, that's the varieties of Gnostic thought that 214 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:26.639 we have in the second century. And then Marsian comes 215 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:30.039 on actually right now, mid mid point of the second century, 216 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.720 so it's actually after Gnostics have kind of set up 217 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:36.399 their own churches. You know, what we call is gnostics 218 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.840 really if you ask to basilady and what they refer 219 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:42.279 to themselves as they'd call themselves a Christian all. 220 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:44.279 Right, I guess maybe we should hone it a little bit. 221 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:50.799 Even What is the distinction between naism and Marcianism generally narcissism. 222 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:54.000 It seems like from my understanding, I know today it's 223 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.519 kind of started to solidify in modern days of kind 224 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:59.600 of the understanding of what it is. But from my understanding, 225 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.960 it's kind kind of nosis means to know, So it 226 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.799 is it's a the idea is to things your knowledge 227 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.720 being revealed. You know, this is minder seeing a lot 228 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:11.840 of people make illusions to the versus like some mystery 229 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:15.360 schools are born this sort of stuff, other weird sort 230 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.399 of thing. So I don't know what is really the 231 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:22.240 tie that binds between all these different gnastic groups, but 232 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.320 it seems like perhaps uh, Martianism is maybe a little 233 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:30.279 bit more doesn't go into the NOSS necessarily, uh kind 234 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.240 of keeps the U, I guess, finds a way to 235 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:35.000 kind of go that guy is a bad guy. 236 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.320 But we're not doing this through some sort of revelation. 237 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.759 This is through you know, something else, and you kind 238 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.159 of are able to kind of not completely throw the 239 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.039 baby out with the bath water without whereas nosis kind 240 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.440 of is just like, I mean, we're being revealed out here, baby, 241 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:52.480 like you know, like I don't know you you kind 242 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:53.799 of lay it out for me because it is kind 243 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:55.480 of a think an odd thing for people to try 244 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.039 to wrap their heads around. And I think then, especially 245 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:01.200 if you're into the conspiracy world with an some of 246 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:04.399 the symboliss, some symbolism that pops up so and the 247 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:07.080 and I guess like let's be real like oh to 248 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:09.679 know and like you know, knowledge being revealed like this 249 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:12.480 all sounds like spook language to me. So it is 250 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.320 like and now I'm sure there's you know, there's both 251 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:17.799 sides of this. Maybe there's a positive side. I'm sure 252 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:19.559 there was spooky stuff that was born out of the 253 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.399 Gnostics that kind of very much in line with that 254 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:24.519 sort of stuff. But I guess what we're kind of 255 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:26.600 driving at is like that, maybe a little bit more 256 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.200 clarification with the key difference is maybe what's the tie 257 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:33.559 that binds Nacissism, what differentiates it from Marcianism? 258 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:34.279 YadA, YadA. 259 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.399 Sure, I think the the best way to. 260 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:44.159 Bind together the Gnostics of the Gnostics of Antiquity is 261 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:49.080 just to understand that they're they're a heterodox theology, Heterodox 262 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:53.080 meaning different than what is established Orthodox, and what is 263 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:57.000 established Orthodox wasn't really established until the fourth century. 264 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:00.840 The thing that like. 265 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:08.639 Ties the Gnostics to it is really just different writings. 266 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.320 So to understand, so I could paint a picture. 267 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:14.600 Jesus died. 268 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:20.480 Around eight thirty Common Era thirty whatever you want to 269 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:23.320 refer to it as. Then you have a bunch of 270 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.879 apostles running around. Some claim seventy, some claim twelve, some 271 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.799 claim five hundred. You know, it really doesn't matter the 272 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:35.519 number of apostles or disciples that are running around spreading 273 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:36.360 the gospel. 274 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:38.799 But just know that it is getting around. 275 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.080 They're all being spread mostly to the people in Jerusalem, 276 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.919 which is where Jesus did most of his ministry work 277 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:50.120 around that area. And so when these things are spreading out, 278 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:54.759 and we have this this figure named Paul, who very 279 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.480 specifically went out to gentiles, who are these non Jewish 280 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:03.960 communities to spread the gospel. Because Paul was like that Jesus, 281 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:09.160 Jesus's Gospel is not for Jews only, but it's for everyone, 282 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:11.720 you know. So Paul started writing these letters, he went 283 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:15.279 out and did missionary work and went around to these 284 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:17.839 different places. So we have a whole bunch of different 285 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:23.680 startup traditions, and essentially all of Christianity at the time 286 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.640 was a bunch of disparate secret societies. Like like when 287 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:30.319 when people met together for church, they were meeting and 288 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.720 people they were meeting in backyards. They weren't meeting at 289 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:38.079 large buildings that we have today. They're there, they're meeting 290 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:41.079 in secret, they're they're sharing ideas. And it was an 291 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.799 oral tradition. It wasn't really anything written in the first century. 292 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.079 There was no gospels written there, like like the the 293 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:51.960 the common belief is that the Book of Mark was 294 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:57.039 written maybe in seventy a d Like that's like the 295 00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:58.759 earliest people are willing to give it. 296 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.200 I'm not really that. I don't think it was that early. 297 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:07.279 I think it was probably into the second century, probably 298 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.519 around one to ten once. But that being said, like 299 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.200 there were no writings, it was all an oral tradition. 300 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:17.359 Everything was spreading around, you know, in a very very 301 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.920 localized fashion. So these different groups started coming up with 302 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.680 different ideas and if you as you can probably assume, 303 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:28.839 like I'm going to bring to I'm going to bring 304 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:31.720 to this religion my background, my cultural background. A lot 305 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.160 of them were Jewish, but a lot of them weren't. 306 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.359 A lot of them were come from Greek schools of philosophy, 307 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:39.000 a lot of them were Hellenists, a lot of them 308 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:44.039 were Pagans, you know, they were adapting Christianity into their 309 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:48.160 pagan ideas. And so you get a bunch of different, 310 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:54.119 very very different churches popping up, very different types of Christianities. 311 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:59.640 And so the only thing that really separates the no 312 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.039 that binds them together is the fact that the Jewish 313 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:08.160 Christians really won. They won in the second century, they 314 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.640 won in the third century. They won in the fourth century. 315 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:16.039 Marcians probably in the third century, but is in the 316 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:19.400 second century he was still building speed. But in the 317 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:22.240 third century he was probably the only real competitor to 318 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.359 true Jewish Christianity, which is a pro Orthodox church, which 319 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:31.079 is what we have today, the Orthodox idea, which which 320 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.160 which marries the Old Testament with the New Testament and 321 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:40.400 marries Jewish traditions with Christianity. Marsianism was really the only 322 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:46.119 counter to that, which was this idea that Christianity can 323 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:49.640 stand on its own. It doesn't need Old Testament, doesn't 324 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.279 need Jewish tradition, doesn't doesn't care where you're from. All 325 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:55.839 the thing is this is this is Christianity. 326 00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:57.440 That that's it. 327 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:02.559 In fact, Christianity. The term Christianity could probably be pointed 328 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.000 back to Marcian. They weren't really using that term until 329 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.519 Marcian made it kind of famous. 330 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:11.440 Okay, So Marcian was like the last holdout, so he 331 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:12.000 the it. 332 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.039 Obviously, it sounds like there is a distinct in a 333 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:18.480 sense difference between the Gnostic traditions and Marsianism, But so 334 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:21.240 far as the Gnostic or the some semblance of the 335 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.200 Gnostic representatives, it seems that Marsians are the last holdout, 336 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:25.640 so they kind of get a little bit of a 337 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.640 knucks for that. But I guess we're here to talk 338 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:32.720 about Marsianism and kind of we're kind of already a 339 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:36.240 little bit leaning into this, creating this conception of looking 340 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:39.559 at this as the Judaic Christians and the and the 341 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:45.599 Gentile Christians and how these these factions clash and coalesce. 342 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:48.119 And I think that very much is the story of 343 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.119 what we're talking about here about Nacissism and Marsianism, which 344 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:55.359 is kind of the focal point here. But I guess 345 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:56.839 if you want to just kind of wherever you want 346 00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:59.480 to start with this, you can kind of take the 347 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.359 the history, the founding, YadA, YadA. I mean, the hell 348 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:06.039 you could probably go even before that, because I mean 349 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.000 there might even be some interesting thoughts to be had 350 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:11.559 on the idea of you know, this was a Jewish 351 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:15.680 religion before and now this with the inclusion of Jesus, 352 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:18.200 this became a unifying like. 353 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:19.960 We're bringing the goy into this now. 354 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.079 So yeah, yeah, So. 355 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:29.400 For the most part, Jesus came to Jerusalem and he 356 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:34.960 spoke to Jews, and well, I mean, he was born 357 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:38.000 in Bethlehem or wherever he was born, I don't really know, 358 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:43.119 but he's his missionary. His work was done in Jerusalem. 359 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.359 So most of the people who were following Jesus were 360 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:51.359 naturally Jews. Even Paul, who was the one who spread 361 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.519 Christianity to Gentiles, was a Jew. But if if we 362 00:21:57.640 --> 00:21:59.640 want to go, we want to look at Marcy. And 363 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:04.440 Marcia was born probably around the last decade of the 364 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:09.519 first century, and he was he was from Pontus, and 365 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:12.799 if you don't know where that is, that's the northern 366 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:16.720 part of Turkey of modern day Turkey. He he's he's 367 00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:21.160 called Marcian of Sinope, and Sinope is the like the 368 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:24.880 topmost little part of Turkey that sticks outs out into 369 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:29.440 the Black Sea. And Marcian was a wealthy man. He 370 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:32.680 was a ship owner, a ship runner. He had a 371 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:38.400 shipping company. And during that time, Rome needed you needed 372 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:40.880 a lot of ships, especially because they were going to 373 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:44.200 war with the Jews. I mean that there was the 374 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.559 the Rebellion in seventy eighty, the Jewish Roman War that 375 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.480 ended up with the trampling of Jerusalem, the destruction of 376 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:53.640 the Temple and all that. And then there was another 377 00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:56.079 revolt in the in the early parts of the one hundreds, 378 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:01.160 and then the Barcopa Rebellion which happened around that time 379 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:01.640 as well. 380 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:07.599 So Marcian was not was not struggling. 381 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:13.200 He was doing very well monetary wise. And to add 382 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:21.440 add matters to this, the area of Pontis that and 383 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:27.759 as well as Galicia and Lysonia, the this Eastern Asia 384 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:33.319 part that it was well removed from Jerusalem, it was 385 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.880 well removed from the center of Rome. There were a 386 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:41.119 lot of Greek speaking Jews there. But essentially it was 387 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:47.480 like after these rebellions, it became sort of like it 388 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:50.960 became a bad idea to to to be a Jew, right, 389 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:54.400 I mean, it's like being a Muslim after the nine 390 00:23:54.440 --> 00:24:01.559 to eleven attacks, I mean just uncomfortable. So keeping that 391 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:08.240 in mind, Marcian had gotten a hold of presumably he'd 392 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:12.319 gotten a hold of some letters from Paul and decided 393 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:16.680 and converted to Christianity. And it was around one point 394 00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:21.799 forty when he actually moved to Rome, and his idea 395 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:26.680 of Christianity had been formulating in Pontus, separated from Jerusalem, 396 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:29.839 and when he moved into Rome proper, he ran into 397 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:33.279 a lot of Jewish Christians and They had a very 398 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.559 different theology than him, a theology that is based on 399 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:42.759 the Jamesian idea or the jack and idea, where there's 400 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:50.160 this upholding of Jewish traditional laws and also circumcision. Marcian, Paul, 401 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:52.559