Speaker 1: Christmas is a wonderful time of year, though it seemingly
Speaker 1: has been taken over with consumerism and the pursuit of
Speaker 1: spending as much money as possible. At its heart and
Speaker 1: has a very good meaning and value family, friends and
Speaker 1: celebrating the relationships we hold so dear. But in the
Speaker 1: Anderson Home in two thousand and seven, everything that makes
Speaker 1: Christmas what it is seemed to create a monster as
Speaker 1: it all came together in one murderous evening.
Speaker 2: My name is Ben and I'm Nicole, and you're listening
Speaker 2: to Wicked and Grim, a true crime podcast. Warning.
Speaker 1: The following podcast contains grabbing content and material intended for
Speaker 1: a mature audience. Listener discretion is advised. How many people
Speaker 1: out there have been taking advantage of the Boxing Day sales?
Speaker 1: This is not an ad. I'm just literally curious.
Speaker 2: Well seriously going into an ad.
Speaker 1: I know That's why I really changed my tone quickly.
Speaker 1: Have you been taking advantage of the sales? Well, come
Speaker 1: on down, No, it's just I'm curious. Are you buying
Speaker 1: yourself the thing you didn't get for Christmas that you
Speaker 1: really wanted?
Speaker 2: I feel like almost the Black Friday sales and that
Speaker 2: day is more about people purchasing more things. I purchased
Speaker 2: way more on Black Friday than I did on Boxing
Speaker 2: Day today.
Speaker 1: Black Friday was notoriously lackluster this year, though, Like there
Speaker 1: was like major headlines about how like shitty Black Fridays.
Speaker 1: Oh really, well yeah, corporations not actually marking things down.
Speaker 1: They mark it up and then mark it down to
Speaker 1: the prices, things like that.
Speaker 2: So I think people are thinking back to Black Friday
Speaker 2: when it was like serious smoking deals all right, and
Speaker 2: now it's not not quite as much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they don't do that anymore. Corporations just manipulate
Speaker 1: it to so they can still make money or more money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then everybody kind of has sales too, and
Speaker 2: it's nice to do some Christmas shopping then oh yeah.
Speaker 1: So but I think the best sales are probably after
Speaker 1: Christmas because that's when the stores are legitimately trying to
Speaker 1: get rid of stock.
Speaker 2: Yeah you know what I mean, but more so probably
Speaker 2: Christmas stock.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't sell out all the big screen TVs,
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, now we're sitting on all these
Speaker 1: we got to do a Boxing Day sale.
Speaker 2: I was thinking, like Christmas decor, well, that wrap and stuff.
Speaker 1: You can get those I know, a cold bot of
Speaker 1: two apparently, and I got some stuff in my Amazon cart,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna be buying some things apparently.
Speaker 2: Like this is a big shock that I didn't tell
Speaker 2: you about a sixteen dollars two.
Speaker 1: I'm disappointed. We hope you guys had an awesome Christmas
Speaker 1: or holiday or whatever you celebrate or don't celebrate. Regardless,
Speaker 1: we hope it's been awesome. We have a Christmas themed
Speaker 1: case for you today, We sure do, so. I do
Speaker 1: want to shout out Alfredo Mendina over on our Patreon
Speaker 1: who actually recommended this case to us. Okay, we put
Speaker 1: out a little thing on Patreon like, hey, does everyone
Speaker 1: anyone have a good Christmas case that I think we
Speaker 1: should do this year? And yeah, this was the one
Speaker 1: that we chose out of the list. So shout out
Speaker 1: to Alfredo there. Thank you so much for the recommendation.
Speaker 2: They never let us down over there when we're asking
Speaker 2: for recommendations.
Speaker 1: Oh no, they always got our back.
Speaker 2: Yeah they really do. Wow. Ye pretty oppressive, which I mean.
Speaker 1: I just do want to thank our patrons because they've
Speaker 1: supported us crazy this year. They they're always there for
Speaker 1: whenever we need. They're great to talk to you. They
Speaker 1: got good recommendations, so shout out to our crew over
Speaker 1: on Patreon if you want to join, links in the
Speaker 1: description below. If not totally cool, we still are awesome
Speaker 1: friends regardless, right.
Speaker 2: The most awesomest of friends.
Speaker 1: Hey, the most awesomest of awesome friends.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well should we dive into this? I'm a
Speaker 2: bit curious. Well let's do it, because I don't know
Speaker 2: much about this at all.
Speaker 1: So you don't know, okay, Well, this is the story
Speaker 1: of the Carnation murders aka Carnation massacre ak a Anderson
Speaker 1: family massacre, Anderson murders. The Carnation Murders is basically what
Speaker 1: it's generally called. Okay, and this uh starts off in
Speaker 1: a small town called, drum roll please, Carnation.
Speaker 2: Okay, It's like, what could it be? I didn't even
Speaker 2: think that. It's so funny, that's so oh man?
Speaker 1: How did you not figure out what the place would
Speaker 1: have been called?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just I've been relaxing too much today.
Speaker 2: My brain's not sharp, apparently.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're all well not all of us, I'm sure,
Speaker 1: but a lot of us are, you know, having a
Speaker 1: little too much Christmas calories lately. So I know me,
Speaker 1: I've been indulging in some chocolate too much and my
Speaker 1: brain isn't working at full capacity, so I cannot blame.
Speaker 2: You chocolate or bows.
Speaker 1: Yes, you're not wrong. Thanks for calling me out.
Speaker 2: I will always call you out well.
Speaker 1: Carnation resides in the state of Washington, and it is
Speaker 1: situated approximately twenty five miles east of Seattle, and it
Speaker 1: boasts the title of quote city despite encompassing only one
Speaker 1: point one square miles.
Speaker 2: Oh wow. It's a very small place, very small.
Speaker 1: It is home to a modest population of just over
Speaker 1: twenty one hundred people, has a nice rural charm to it,
Speaker 1: and with the majority of its residents engaging in agricultural
Speaker 1: pursuits such as farming or small forms of homesteading, the
Speaker 1: city proudly declares itself one of the most agriculturally productive
Speaker 1: regions in the north West.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's awesome. I love that.
Speaker 1: Actually, I mean you can kind of almost picture it
Speaker 1: at this point.
Speaker 2: Kind of yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And they're actually not very.
Speaker 1: Far away from us, No they're not really Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest still for sure. I mean we're at the
Speaker 1: northern tip of it. I think they're more the southern
Speaker 1: end of it, but still yeah. Now, because of its
Speaker 1: small size, though, Carnation thrives as a very tight knit
Speaker 1: community where familiarity among the residents is kind of like
Speaker 1: the social norm, like everyone kind of knows each other
Speaker 1: sort of thing feeling. If you go to the grocery store,
Speaker 1: you're going to run into several people that you'll have
Speaker 1: conversations with along the way. Local events were more like
Speaker 1: a large gathering of friends more than anything. For example,
Speaker 1: the city's annual Fourth of July and fall harvest celebrations
Speaker 1: were times when the locals kind of came together like
Speaker 1: lifelong friends instead of just you know, oh neighbors. So
Speaker 1: to me, it almost seems like something plucked straight out
Speaker 1: of a Hallmark movie.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: Actually yes, yeah, So the overall sense of safety in
Speaker 1: this community. Community's reputation story as a family friendly place
Speaker 1: played a massive part in Carnation's appeal.
Speaker 2: Okay, so it wasn't.
Speaker 1: A perfect place. I want to start by saying that
Speaker 1: by any means, it's not a perfect place. Nowhere is
Speaker 1: quote perfect right nowhere. But there's isolated incidents of burglary
Speaker 1: and theft that did occur, and violent crimes were a rarity,
Speaker 1: if not virtually non existent in this place.
Speaker 2: I also am kind of envisioning it to as a
Speaker 2: place where probably everybody knows your business, I think, so right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so small and if everyone's kind of friends and stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a small little place, little farming, computer community,
Speaker 1: kind of rural. You kind of go to community events
Speaker 1: and it's like you know, reunions of friendship and there's
Speaker 1: not much crime going on. Everyone's just like chilling, having
Speaker 1: a good time, loving each other and like you say,
Speaker 1: probably knowing each other's business. Probably a little too much.
Speaker 2: Little too much, I.
Speaker 1: Imagine, though it is this quaint little place, there's probably
Speaker 1: some community drama being spewn back and forth. But like
Speaker 1: I said, no place is perfect. No, And with no
Speaker 1: place being perfect, this of course leads us to our
Speaker 1: incident that we are covering today. So when the tranquility
Speaker 1: of this quaint little city was shattered, it was on
Speaker 1: Christmas Eve, December twenty fourth of two thousand and seven,
Speaker 1: and it marked a very large turning point in its history.
Speaker 1: So the story focuses on the Anderson family, composed of
Speaker 1: Judy Anderson, who was sixty one Wayne Anderson, who was sixty.
Speaker 1: They had shared a happy marriage that had spanned over
Speaker 1: the course of the past thirty one years. Judy held
Speaker 1: a position at the US Postal Service, while Wayne worked
Speaker 1: as an engineer for Boeing. Together they raised three children, Mary,
Speaker 1: who from this story, as far as I can tell,
Speaker 1: was not living in the area or out of town.
Speaker 1: She's generally not involved, okay, and their other two children, Scott,
Speaker 1: who was thirty two and Michelle, who was twenty nine.
Speaker 1: Scott had married his wife named Erica, who was also
Speaker 1: thirty two, and they had expand their family with two
Speaker 1: children of their own, Olivia, who was five in Nathan,
Speaker 1: who was three. Michelle Anderson resided with her boyfriend, Joseph
Speaker 1: Mcroe Micenroe Sorry, who was also twenty nine, in a
Speaker 1: trailer situated on the ten acre property owned by Judy
Speaker 1: and Wayne. So Michelle lived with her boyfriend on a
Speaker 1: trailer on her parents' property the ten acre sort of thing.
Speaker 2: Right, and did sorry, did the son live there with
Speaker 2: his family or no?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, no.
Speaker 1: Scott and Erica with their two kids, they had their
Speaker 1: own place. I'm not too sure where, but they were
Speaker 1: off the property at their own.
Speaker 2: Home still in that town.
Speaker 1: Though as far as I'm aware, yes, now, everything in
Speaker 1: the world of the Anderson family was normal. Christmas was
Speaker 1: just around the corner. It's Christmas Eve, in fact, and
Speaker 1: everyone had planned a gathering at Wayne and Judy's home
Speaker 1: for the evening. The Anderson home was decorated festively and
Speaker 1: was cozy that afternoon. The Christmas tree lights were blinking
Speaker 1: and the smell of roast beef dinner was coming out
Speaker 1: of the kitchen. Nice Judy sat wrapping gifts and preparation
Speaker 1: for her grandchildren's arrival, and Wayne sat on the couch
Speaker 1: relaxing watching some TV. Then everything changed. The relaxed Christmas
Speaker 1: atmosphere in the Anderson home turned to complete chaos in
Speaker 1: just a matter of seconds. Michelle and Joseph entered the home,
Speaker 1: but instead of the expected Merry Christmas with hugs or
Speaker 1: maybe even presents in their arms, they instead each were
Speaker 1: armed with a handgun. Joseph distracted Judy while Michelle shot Wayne,
Speaker 1: her father. However, in that instant, while Michelle had the
Speaker 1: gun aimed, she pulled the trigger and the gun jammed.
Speaker 1: It would have only been a moment between the time
Speaker 1: when she pulled the trigger and the gun jammed, and
Speaker 1: then when Joseph turned to shoot Wayne and then Judy,
Speaker 1: ultimately killing them both. But I'm sure in that small
Speaker 1: moment of time it would have felt like an eternity
Speaker 1: as Wayne watched his own daughter aim a gun at
Speaker 1: his face, pulled the trigger only four to jam.
Speaker 2: What the actual fuck I was expecting this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is what happened.
Speaker 2: Holy shit.
Speaker 1: Michelle entered her parents' home on Christmas Eve and murdered
Speaker 1: them in cold blood. Though technically her gun jammed, it
Speaker 1: was her boyfriend Joseph who pulled the.
Speaker 2: Tree, but still she very much so was involved and
Speaker 2: had the intention. Wow.
Speaker 1: So to Joseph and Michelle, however, this instant would not
Speaker 1: have felt like forever. It seemed like it was almost
Speaker 1: the opposite, as they were so cold and didn't waste
Speaker 1: any time and immediately began to clean the room and
Speaker 1: dispose of Michelle's parents' bodies. Together, they dragged them both
Speaker 1: Judy and Wayne into the backyard to put them in
Speaker 1: a shed behind the house. They closed the door, went
Speaker 1: back inside, and once everything was cleaned up and taken
Speaker 1: care of, they then sat down and waited for the
Speaker 1: arrival of Michelle's brother, Scott.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, this is quite the Christmas Eve.
Speaker 2: Hey, no shit, because these are the ones that lived
Speaker 2: on the property, right correct, Holy shit. I was not
Speaker 2: thinking it was going to be an internal affair.
Speaker 1: No, you're thinking it was going to be some burglar event.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something going yeah, or they pissed someone off or something.
Speaker 2: But I was not expecting this to be like in
Speaker 2: the family. Wow.
Speaker 1: Now, this is one hundred percent within the family, one
Speaker 1: hundred percent premeditated. And I mean you can't really say
Speaker 1: much else with that. I mean, it's pretty straightforward now
Speaker 1: that her came in and killed her parents.
Speaker 2: I'm just scared shitless about the brother arriving. Holy shit.
Speaker 2: And that would have been a big mess to clean
Speaker 2: up too, It would have.
Speaker 1: Been it would have been.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: After about an hour of them waiting, her brother arrived.
Speaker 1: Nothing seemed wrong at first. Her brother entered the home
Speaker 1: with his family, and they began to get comfortable, expecting
Speaker 1: Wayne and Judy to enter the room at any moment,
Speaker 1: wishing everyone to marry Christmas. But instead, though, that's when
Speaker 1: Shell and Joseph appeared and Michelle opened fire on her
Speaker 1: brother Scott, shooting him a total of four times. His wife, Erica,
Speaker 1: managed to make a mad dash for the phone and
Speaker 1: called nine to one one around five pm and was
Speaker 1: heard screaming on the phone quoting not the kids, but
Speaker 1: before authorities were able to find out anything else on
Speaker 1: what was going on, the phone went dead.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, because they wouldn't have probably had the
Speaker 2: technology today where they could just track the phone. I'm assuming,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they definitely did. Oh this is two thousand and seven.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, they had Star six nine or tracking
Speaker 1: the phone. I mean all this sort of stuff, you
Speaker 1: name it.
Speaker 2: Okay, So that's amazing that she was able to.
Speaker 1: Call then, yes, definitely. Michelle of course then shot Erica
Speaker 1: twice and she would have more, but she ran out
Speaker 1: of bullets, and because of this, she told Joseph he
Speaker 1: needs to be the one to shoot the kids because
Speaker 1: she can't. So these kids are there currently screaming and
Speaker 1: clinging to their now deceased mother Erica on the floor,
Speaker 1: and Joseph obliged and does.
Speaker 2: What Michelle says, Holy fuck.
Speaker 1: With a total of fourteen bullets. Michelle Anderson and Joseph
Speaker 1: McEnroe wiped out all six of the Anderson family members
Speaker 1: within the home.
Speaker 2: I cannot even believe this. This is so disgusting it
Speaker 2: and I need some answers here. This is unbelievable. Wow. Wow.
Speaker 1: We'll get to kind of the quote answers here in
Speaker 1: a little bit, of course, we got some more to
Speaker 1: talk about before you do. But researching this was tough.
Speaker 1: It's hard to not picture yourself in this position, being like, okay,
Speaker 1: losing my entire family in this evening. Because whether you're
Speaker 1: sitting here thinking you're the parents and a child of
Speaker 1: mine is doing this, or I'm a sibling and a
Speaker 1: sibling is doing this, or I'm the sibling out of
Speaker 1: town and getting the news of this happening to the
Speaker 1: rest of my family, or this is my kids, whatever
Speaker 1: perspective you're putting yourself in, it's gut wrenching to say
Speaker 1: the least.
Speaker 2: And just why, like that just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: Well, we'll touch on why here in a little bit,
Speaker 1: because there is a why now. In response to the
Speaker 1: nine one one call, just as you were saying, because hey,
Speaker 1: can't they track the phone? Of course they can. Nine
Speaker 1: one one immediately was able to track the phone they
Speaker 1: knew where it was coming from, and authorities were able
Speaker 1: to dispatch to the Anderson property, but Michelle knew that
Speaker 1: the police were likely to come and had already locked
Speaker 1: the gate to the property, and the police didn't have
Speaker 1: any other option but to turn around and retreat, not
Speaker 1: realizing the carnage that was actually taking place behind the
Speaker 1: locked gate.
Speaker 2: Oh, because so they couldn't just enter kind of thing.
Speaker 1: You don't have a warrant.
Speaker 2: They had no idea.
Speaker 1: Really, they have nothing at this point. It's basically a
Speaker 1: wellness check, right, and you can't Okay, you need I
Speaker 1: think you need reason to enter, and I don't think
Speaker 1: they had reason to enter technically.
Speaker 2: I kind of feel like they did, though. If someone
Speaker 2: was screaming on the phone.
Speaker 1: I listened to that nine on one call, it's kind
Speaker 1: of hard to hear Erica actually screaming and quoting not
Speaker 1: the kids. It's kind of almost like it's in the background.
Speaker 1: You just kind of hear like a bit of a
Speaker 1: scream and that or something. Then it just goes dead.
Speaker 1: It could have been a prank call.
Speaker 2: You don't know, really, Yeah, dang.
Speaker 1: So police can't exactly just go busting down a door
Speaker 1: only to learn that, Hey, your six year old just
Speaker 1: phone the police because you told them to clean your room. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or you butt dialed nine one one and you're watching
Speaker 1: a movie that happens to have someone screaming.
Speaker 2: Not the kids, rightang, Okay.
Speaker 1: So the police didn't have any other anything to do
Speaker 1: or anything they could do, but just okay.
Speaker 2: But I mean too at that point of arriving, that's
Speaker 2: been too late too.
Speaker 1: I'm sure, oh definitely everyone would have been dead by
Speaker 1: that point anyways, because seconds after that nine on one
Speaker 1: call was placed and the phone was ended, everyone else
Speaker 1: was shot in it. Recut it just the same. So, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be until postal workers returned to work on
Speaker 1: December twenty sixth, which is today, that the horrific scene
Speaker 1: was discovered. So we are sitting here in December twenty sixth,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, when this occurred December twenty sixth, two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, so this is the anniversary date. So
Speaker 1: worker Linda Thielli reported to work that morning, and she
Speaker 1: was surprised that her best friend, Judy Anderson, didn't show
Speaker 1: up for her shift. Now I remember the mother of
Speaker 1: the family. Judy did work as a US postal worker
Speaker 1: right yep. So Lynda knew something wasn't right, and she
Speaker 1: was convinced that something was seriously wrong, so she actually
Speaker 1: left and made her way to Judy's house to check
Speaker 1: in on her personally an amazing friend, no kidding, and
Speaker 1: she arrived there shortly after eight am. When she got there,
Speaker 1: the gate to the driveway was still closed and locked,
Speaker 1: so she got out of her car, walked around it,
Speaker 1: and approached the house by foot. She walked up to
Speaker 1: the front door and knocked, but there was no answer.
Speaker 1: So she tried the front door and it was open.
Speaker 2: It was locked, okay, so she.
Speaker 1: Opens the door and takes a look inside.
Speaker 2: Shit.
Speaker 1: As she opens the door a bit wider, she was
Speaker 1: met with a very gruesome scene of the murders that,
Speaker 1: of course occurred on Christmas Eve. She immediately saw the
Speaker 1: body of Scott Anderson lying motionless in the floor. At first,
Speaker 1: she thought that he had succumbed to potential carbon monoxide poisoning,
Speaker 1: but a moment later she realized he instead had been
Speaker 1: shot in the head. Not far from Scott laid the
Speaker 1: body of Erica and three year old Nathan, who had
Speaker 1: been shot as well. Now initially She had actually confused
Speaker 1: Erica for her friend Judy as she didn't want to
Speaker 1: really look at the body.
Speaker 2: Well what a horrifying scene.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But regardless, Linda panicked and she knew she needed
Speaker 1: to call nine one one, and she didn't have her
Speaker 1: cell phone on her, so she rushed into the residence
Speaker 1: and she used the phone in Judy and Wayne's bedroom
Speaker 1: and called from their landline.
Speaker 2: I'm almost surprised. I kind of expected her to go
Speaker 2: in and it potentially just been like cleaned up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think so.
Speaker 2: That was what I was sort of expecting.
Speaker 1: Actually, I wasn't able to really figure out why it
Speaker 1: wasn't cleaned up, But I kind of agree with you.
Speaker 1: During my research, I was kind of questioning that too,
Speaker 1: like why did they just hey leave it?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I guess they cleaned up the parents
Speaker 2: so that they could still lure Scott in.
Speaker 1: Right, definitely, And that was brought up in the court case.
Speaker 1: Actually they asked like, hey, why was that the case?
Speaker 1: There wasn't really an answer either, I guess, but that
Speaker 1: is the gist of it is. Yeah, they were trying
Speaker 1: to lure in, making sure that they got them in
Speaker 1: the home without them fleeing or anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the phone call between Linda and the operator lasted
Speaker 1: around thirty minutes. Linda told the operator that Judy and
Speaker 1: Wayne's daughter, Michelle, lived on the property in a mobile home,
Speaker 1: and Michelle had been upset with Judy and Wayne over money.
Speaker 1: Linda stated that she was worried that Michelle may have
Speaker 1: actually been involved in the killings, and to quote her,
Speaker 1: she said, quote the gate is locked, which makes me
Speaker 1: wonder if her daughter did it, which is scary because
Speaker 1: then I might be up here with a murderer.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Because yeah, that she could have seen
Speaker 2: this car parked right at the gate, yep, and gone
Speaker 2: and investigated.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe she's even in the house right then, in there,
Speaker 1: Holy shit. So didn't run. She stayed on that phone
Speaker 1: with the operator for like I said, approximately thirty minutes,
Speaker 1: knowing a murderer could be anywhere near her. So props
Speaker 1: to her for that.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and I mean for surprise that she did that.
Speaker 2: She didn't flee and then like phone for help. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's kind of amazing.
Speaker 1: So she stuck it out. She checked on her friend
Speaker 1: with not a single hesitation. She knew something was wrong
Speaker 1: and drove there herself ditching work. Yeah, she made sure
Speaker 1: that she was there on the phone with the operator,
Speaker 1: potentially with a murderer around, and she didn't leave. So
Speaker 1: Linda is one hundred and ten percent our badass of
Speaker 1: the day.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and just like a friend that I feel
Speaker 2: like everyone needs.
Speaker 1: Definitely, if you have a Linda in your life, hold
Speaker 1: them close, no kidding. Police would arrive around nine to
Speaker 1: thirty am, approximately half an hour after Linda, hence the
Speaker 1: thirty minute operator call. They first fan Scott, Erica and Nathan,
Speaker 1: and after a closer inspection, they found the young Olivia
Speaker 1: as well, who was behind her mother.
Speaker 2: Oh jeez, I thought maybe she might have been alive.
Speaker 1: Okay, unfortunately no. All four had been shot in the
Speaker 1: head and they began combing the house for evidence, and
Speaker 1: when officers ventured outside to the shed, the bodies of
Speaker 1: June and Wayne Anderson were also discovered. Around three hours
Speaker 1: after the police arrived at the investigation was underway, Michelle
Speaker 1: and Joseph pulled up to the Anderson residence house.
Speaker 2: Just pulled the fuck up. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: They didn't seem phased by the police car surrounding the property,
Speaker 1: nor did they really ask if you know, Michelle's parents
Speaker 1: were okay, which of course raised officers suspicions right away,
Speaker 1: not that they weren't already suspicious of them, but uh yeah,
Speaker 1: Michelle and Joseph they just kind of simply walked up
Speaker 1: to the house as the investigation was unfolding, as if like, Hey,
Speaker 1: what's going on?
Speaker 2: What the nerve? Yeah, I thought for sure they would
Speaker 2: have fled or something like the pieces of shit they are.
Speaker 1: Well, they kind of did. Like the authorities right away,
Speaker 1: or they're asking them, they're questioning them about what's going on,
Speaker 1: right Yeah, so they're questioning them, and Joseph and Michelle
Speaker 1: said that they had actually been on their way to
Speaker 1: Las Vegas to get married, but then they got lost
Speaker 1: and so they turned around to come home. And Michelle
Speaker 1: told the detectives that the last time she and Joseph
Speaker 1: had seen her parents was on Christmas Eve before they
Speaker 1: went to Las Vegas, which we of course know is
Speaker 1: not a complete lie. Last time they did see them,
Speaker 1: in fact, was Christmas Eve. However, the whole Las Vegas
Speaker 1: thing was somewhat of a lie.
Speaker 2: Nothing like going in mayor in the person that just
Speaker 2: killed your fucking family, right, Gosh, that's disturbing. Now.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if their real intention was to go
Speaker 1: to Las Vegas to actually get married, but they were
Speaker 1: in fact fleeing to Las Vegas, and along the way
Speaker 1: they thought, you know what, they're just going to turn
Speaker 1: around back home, and there's gonna pretend to be innocent, like,
Speaker 1: oh what happened, okay, and they'll be like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: they'll least suspect like us, you know, the family who
Speaker 1: returned and up to the murder scene as they're like
Speaker 1: this is going on. Maybe they're even intending to go
Speaker 1: up and find the bodies and call police. So their
Speaker 1: course of action was basically to try and hide in
Speaker 1: plain sight.
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean, I don't know. That seems stupid to me,
Speaker 2: But also.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seems stupid to me too, because
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, what's like rule number one of any
Speaker 1: sort of murder investigation, the spouse, the family, like they're
Speaker 1: suspect number one people. So I mean, of course their
Speaker 1: plan didn't go as planned. When detectives asked Michelle why
Speaker 1: she thought authorities were at the house, like, he's like,
Speaker 1: why do you think we're here? Apparently, she broke down
Speaker 1: quote it's not Joe's fault, it's all mine. As soon
Speaker 1: as I shot the gun, I felt so bad, Like,
Speaker 1: what the hell have I done? I'm a monster?
Speaker 2: Okay, So her hiding it sure as hell didn't last
Speaker 2: long at all.
Speaker 1: No, she immediately started spilling it and confessing.
Speaker 2: Which I'm glad for. She was guilty as fuck.
Speaker 1: Same and as far as I can tell, she didn't
Speaker 1: really show any remorse up until this point. I don't
Speaker 1: think there was any real conversation between her and Joseph about,
Speaker 1: you know, speaking the truth confessing. She just in that instant,
Speaker 1: and as far as I'm concerned, from my perspective, it
Speaker 1: seems more out of fear than anything. When she's confronted,
Speaker 1: why do you think we're here? Shit, I'm gonna get caught.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna spill it. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: Well, and then her boyfriend was probably a bit shocked too.
Speaker 1: Probably now. The detective asked Michelle why the children had
Speaker 1: been killed, and Michelle explained that they were going to
Speaker 1: be scarred for life after seeing what happened to their parents,
Speaker 1: so they decided to kill them and save their life
Speaker 1: ahead from what they witnessed.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I mean yes, they would be scarred for life.
Speaker 2: But that is terrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that doesn't excuse you.
Speaker 2: From killing them, not even in the last No.
Speaker 1: The questioning, of course, continued, and she was asked why
Speaker 1: she felt the need to wipe out her family. She
Speaker 1: told detectives that she was quote tired of everybody stepping
Speaker 1: on her. She claimed that her brother Scott owed her
Speaker 1: forty grand and would not pay her back, and that
Speaker 1: her parents had begun pressing her about paying rent for
Speaker 1: living on the property in the mobile home after she
Speaker 1: and Joseph had already lived there for a year free
Speaker 1: of charge. Now it became clear to detectives that money was,
Speaker 1: of course the heart of this crime. She killed her
Speaker 1: family because of money, and.
Speaker 2: Not even really that much money.
Speaker 1: Not really.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I would believe that the brother
Speaker 2: owes her forty grand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't find any sort of concrete evidence on
Speaker 1: that claim. But even if we break it down to say,
Speaker 1: yes he did, oh forty grand. Yes, you are being
Speaker 1: charged rent, pay your rent, you got to live there
Speaker 1: for free for a year. I'm pretty sure everyone out
Speaker 1: there right now would love to have a free year
Speaker 1: of mortgage or rent or anything like that.
Speaker 2: Totally why not. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, when questioned about how long she had been planning
Speaker 1: the murders, Michelle replied that she had just decided two
Speaker 1: weeks ago that she would kill her family and asked
Speaker 1: Joseph to help her. So two weeks of premeditation. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like she had been drinking that night or just
Speaker 1: sudden anger over a conversation that she grabbed a gun
Speaker 1: and went over there. No, she premeditated this for two
Speaker 1: fucking weeks.
Speaker 2: Hum, and her boyfriend was just like, sure, I.
Speaker 1: Guess so yeah, gosh. So, after the confession, which went
Speaker 1: on for nearly two hours with details on who killed who,
Speaker 1: how it happened, the two were arrested on the spot,
Speaker 1: and Michelle led detectives to where she and Joseph had
Speaker 1: discarded the two guns. I'm probably gonna mispronounce this, but
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try stilanguish river nearby, So they threw the
Speaker 1: two guns in a river. Now, on December twenty eighth,
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, Michelle and Joseph were each charged
Speaker 1: with six counts of aggravated murder. Now, though I mentioned
Speaker 1: earlier how Michelle and Joseph like kind of in the
Speaker 1: heat of their actions. They were quite cold. I do
Speaker 1: think it's important to tell how remorseful Michelle seems to be.
Speaker 1: In June of two thousand and eight, during a jailhouse
Speaker 1: interview with the Seattle Time, she confessed to the murders
Speaker 1: once again to the journalism. A journalist there we go
Speaker 1: and said this quote, I want the most severe punishment,
Speaker 1: which would be the death penalty. I think if I
Speaker 1: kill a bunch of people, I'm not sure I deserve
Speaker 1: to live. I want to waive my trial. So she's
Speaker 1: at least clearly remorseful. She maybe I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: very hard to judge someone just on the base of
Speaker 1: their actions and what they do after the fact. But
Speaker 1: she is willing to waive her trial. She is willing
Speaker 1: to accept the death penalty. That to me at least
Speaker 1: shows somewhat remorse. Someone.
Speaker 2: Oh, I know, I doesn't excuse the act. I get
Speaker 2: what you're saying, but for some reason, it's not making
Speaker 2: me feel any better right now.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, don't get me wrong. Doesn't excuse it.
Speaker 2: No, but it is good because there are people that
Speaker 2: do terrible things and then they're in jail forever whatever years,
Speaker 2: and they still don't confess or they don't give a
Speaker 2: shit what they did. So I mean it is better
Speaker 2: that she's this way. But gosh a little late here, Oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's the second she tried to pull
Speaker 1: the trigger and the gun jammed. Though it's not too late.
Speaker 1: Then it was like, in that instant, it's things are changed,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, you can only do so much even
Speaker 1: from that. But then seconds later when the gun was
Speaker 1: pulled and she and Joseph continued, you can't go back from.
Speaker 2: That, well, I mean even cleaning up the parents' bodies, yeah,
Speaker 2: and waiting for the brother that would have and that
Speaker 2: was like an hour span or whatever.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, well, and look at it this way. She
Speaker 1: had a second chance. It's almost as if there was
Speaker 1: a higher power or someone or something jamming that gun,
Speaker 1: saying don't do this, and she used her second chance
Speaker 1: to tell Joseph kill them.
Speaker 2: Right, you're right. Actually she could have taken that as okay, shit,
Speaker 2: like what am I doing?
Speaker 1: It's not too late in that instant, you can't change
Speaker 1: what you're about to do, but you can change what
Speaker 1: you are doing. Yeah, I'm sure the relationship between her
Speaker 1: and her father would never.
Speaker 2: Be the same ever, Oh, I don't know if you
Speaker 2: could ever fix something like that.
Speaker 1: But at least her family would still be there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she and Joseph wouldn't be murderers.
Speaker 2: Wow, of kids and everything.
Speaker 1: Jeez. In October of two thousand and eight, King Prosecutor
Speaker 1: Dan Staatenberg said that he would seek the death penalty
Speaker 1: for Michelle and Joseph. However, this received significant pushback from
Speaker 1: Judge Jeffrey Ramsdell, who ruled against it. Governor of Washington
Speaker 1: Jay Insley at the time also said that no one
Speaker 1: would be executed while he was in office. The process, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: was drawn on for a very significant time, which ultimately
Speaker 1: costs the taxpayers millions in the process. It would finally
Speaker 1: be on September fifth of twenty thirteen that the Washington
Speaker 1: State Supreme Court overturned Judge Ramsdell's ruling regarding the death
Speaker 1: penalty and ordered that the trials of Michelle and Joseph
Speaker 1: go ahead. They were to be tried separately, so the
Speaker 1: prosecutors were in fact seeking death penalty okay. On January twentieth,
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, Joseph was escorted to King's County Superior Court
Speaker 1: in Seattle for his trial prosecutor Scott O'Toole was pushing
Speaker 1: the death penalty, as I mentioned, while the defense attorney
Speaker 1: argued that Joseph was mentally ill and had been coerced
Speaker 1: and manipulated into killing the family by Michelle Anderson. Joseph
Speaker 1: showed little emotion through most of the trial. This changed, however,
Speaker 1: when he took the stand on April third of twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: He was barely able to string sentences together due to
Speaker 1: being so heavily medicated with anti anxiety and antidepressants. And
Speaker 1: I watched some of his trial stuff when he's actually
Speaker 1: on the stand, it is very odd footage. He's very
Speaker 1: weird up on that stand. At one point he even
Speaker 1: began laughing hysterically when describing the look on Judy Anderson's
Speaker 1: face when he shot her. Really, he put his arms
Speaker 1: over his head and began rocking back and forth uncontrollably
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Huh okay.
Speaker 1: So he claimed that Michelle had manipulated him and that
Speaker 1: he felt he had no choice but to participate in
Speaker 1: the killings. Prosecutors, however, felt that he played an equal role.
Speaker 1: At one point, on being questioned by the prosecutor o'
Speaker 1: tool Joseph was asked, quote, were you excited about it
Speaker 1: or were you not, to which he replied quote absolutely not.
Speaker 1: It was also pointed out that Michelle Anderson could not
Speaker 1: load the guns she didn't know how, so Joseph did
Speaker 1: it for her, and he had also brought extra bullets. Quote.
Speaker 1: I think we've established none of these murders would have
Speaker 1: happened without you, according to the prosecutor, to which Joseph agreed,
Speaker 1: quote unfortunately that is completely true. Yes, so whether he
Speaker 1: was coerced or not, it could not have occurred with
Speaker 1: him without him.
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't even know what to think right now,
Speaker 2: because it's so hard to just kind of like judge
Speaker 2: the situation, because was she manipulating him, like does he
Speaker 2: is he not of like sound mind but is not
Speaker 2: of sound mind? Or I don't know. It's just so weird.
Speaker 2: You know, this is making my head think a little
Speaker 2: bit too hard.
Speaker 1: Well, it's always hard to get in the head of
Speaker 1: someone like this, and it really makes you second guess
Speaker 1: whatever your thoughts could be when you're dealing with a
Speaker 1: person who could have potentially been coerced or manipulated, and
Speaker 1: more so, if this is a relationship where he is
Speaker 1: kind of being puppeted by Michelle. You kind of got
Speaker 1: to take a step back and say, Okay, if that
Speaker 1: is the case, how much of this is his own action?
Speaker 1: And unfortunately we just don't know, and I don't think
Speaker 1: we'd ever be able to know. But what we do
Speaker 1: know is the extent that he played a role in it,
Speaker 1: would he have like, at what point could he have
Speaker 1: taken himself out of there? If he's sitting here loading
Speaker 1: the guns for her, maybe that's the moment where he says, Okay,
Speaker 1: I have the power. She doesn't have guns. I have guns.
Speaker 1: So I don't think his safety was really being threatened.
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but from my perspective, he has
Speaker 1: the weapons, so I don't think there's any harm being
Speaker 1: threatened against him. If he's got these guns, loading the bullets,
Speaker 1: I think he has the power in my opinion. Now
Speaker 1: that's not to say he's not being manipulated mentally. I'm
Speaker 1: sure he could. Maybe she's holding something above him. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's blackmail, or maybe even breaks down. Maybe she's like, hey,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna get laid tonight. Maybe it's something mundane
Speaker 1: like that. I don't know, but that doesn't excuse the
Speaker 1: fact that he had the power and he could have
Speaker 1: said no.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, at some point. I mean, even when in
Speaker 2: this in the act, when she's like, you know, yelling
Speaker 2: at him to pull the trigger or whatever, could have
Speaker 2: been another moment, right, Like, there's so many her.
Speaker 1: Gun jammed, she had a jammed gun, an inoperable gun.
Speaker 1: His was working.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is just arable.
Speaker 1: So again, he held the power, not her.
Speaker 2: In a lot of instances he did, for sure.
Speaker 1: So it's really hard to judge. But is he a
Speaker 1: complete victim, certainly not. He certainly played at least an
Speaker 1: equal role in my opinion. Oh yeah, maybe not complete equal.
Speaker 1: I would say at very at least like forty percent.
Speaker 1: He killed, he loaded the guns, he was there, he acted.
Speaker 1: He may planned this with her, you know, maybe she
Speaker 1: manipulated him, which puts a little more onus on her.
Speaker 1: But he had many options to reach out for help.
Speaker 1: He's in a house with the two people they're about
Speaker 1: to kill. She does not have a weapon. He does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in that moment, he has people right there to help
Speaker 1: him as well. If he helped them, yep, but he didn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Again, it's so hard to judge these situations. Who knows
Speaker 1: what was going on. That's strictly just my opinion. But
Speaker 1: either way, in the Washington state, for the jury to
Speaker 1: recommend the death penalty, all all twelve jurors must be
Speaker 1: in favor. In the case of Joseph, eight jurors ruled
Speaker 1: in favor of sentencing to death while four did not.
Speaker 1: This meant the death penalty was not an option. So
Speaker 1: on March twenty fifth, twenty fifteen, the juror found Joseph
Speaker 1: McEnroe guilty of six accounts of aggravated first degree murder.
Speaker 1: On May thirteenth, twenty fifteen, he was sentenced to life
Speaker 1: in prison without the possibility of parole, so he will
Speaker 1: be in prison for life, okay. As a result of
Speaker 1: the outcome of Joseph's trial, King County Prosecutor Dad Strattenberg
Speaker 1: announced that Michelle Anderson would not face the death penalty either,
Speaker 1: and to quote him to proceed with the death penalty
Speaker 1: against defendant Anderson in light of the sentence imposing on
Speaker 1: the defendant mecenroe would not be in the interest of justice,
Speaker 1: So it would basically be unfair if one got the
Speaker 1: death penalty and the other did not. It would not
Speaker 1: be justice. So on January twenty fifth of twenty sixteen,
Speaker 1: Michelle's trial began. In his opening statement, prosecutor O'Toole stated that,
Speaker 1: quote the motive for these murders is pure, unadulterated greed,
Speaker 1: referring to the interview in which she brought up money
Speaker 1: more than a total of apparently thirty five times in
Speaker 1: her explanation as to why she killed her family.
Speaker 2: Oh, that is not a reason.
Speaker 1: Not a reason whatsoever, but it was her reason. Holy shit,
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's okay, But that was her reason.
Speaker 2: Thirty five times. She brought that up.
Speaker 1: Thirty five times in her explanation. Yes, so there was
Speaker 1: a tape of her confession that and it sent mixed
Speaker 1: messages to the jury as she called herself quote a
Speaker 1: monster and quote a bad person for murdering her family.
Speaker 1: Then would also say her mother, father, and brother had
Speaker 1: abused her for over or over the course of years.
Speaker 1: It was also revealed during the trial le that Michelle
Speaker 1: reportedly hated her sister in law, Erica, because she felt
Speaker 1: that Erica had pushed out her brother from her life.
Speaker 1: Quoting the prosecutor, he said, quote Erica was the person
Speaker 1: that Michelle Anderson truly, truly hated. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: of mixed things going on with her confession money. Apparently
Speaker 1: they abused her and that her sister in law took
Speaker 1: her brother out of her life. But I don't think
Speaker 1: she would be too upset with that if her brother
Speaker 1: was abusing her, like, yeah.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't think that she would want him in her life.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So there was a lot of mixed things going
Speaker 1: on that certainly confused the jury. But on March fourth
Speaker 1: of twenty sixteen, Michelle Anderson, like Joseph McEnroe, was convicted
Speaker 1: of six accounts of aggravated murder in the first degree,
Speaker 1: and on April twenty first, she was sentenced to life
Speaker 1: in prison without the possibility of parole.
Speaker 2: Okay, just like him, like him.
Speaker 1: Now, Michelle's older sister, Mary, who is her only surviving
Speaker 1: immediate family member, had this to say to Michelle.
Speaker 2: Okay, I was going to ask about Mary. Holy shit.
Speaker 1: To quote her quote, it kills me. I loved you
Speaker 1: so much. Just know they loved you.
Speaker 2: Oh that gave me goose bumps instantly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh wow. Not only using the word loved for
Speaker 1: the family deceased, but using the word loved for herself currently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that is the Carnation murders.
Speaker 2: Could you imagine being Mary hey wo and like just
Speaker 2: getting that call saying that six family members are deceased,
Speaker 2: which would be a call and a half in itself,
Speaker 2: but then that they were deceased at the hands of
Speaker 2: your sister and her boyfriend. Yeah, I don't know. I
Speaker 2: think I would lose my mind from that call, like
Speaker 2: that is that is just too much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially around that time of year. I can only
Speaker 1: imagine she was probably waiting for maybe a Christmas call.
Speaker 1: She probably tried to call her family for Christmas where
Speaker 1: she married Christmas, but couldn't get through. She was probably
Speaker 1: wondering what's going on? And then Yeah, I would have
Speaker 1: heard the news very shortly.
Speaker 2: After yikes, holy shit. And also that sure took a
Speaker 2: long time. Yeah, and so the fact that that also
Speaker 2: costs millions of dollars to get these two huh into
Speaker 2: prison for life is another thing that's kind of disgusting
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: It really is, But I mean that's kind.
Speaker 2: Of the system to make it is that it is. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, wow, that is a story and a half.
Speaker 1: So here we are, sixteen years later to the day
Speaker 1: when this horrendous act was discovered.
Speaker 2: Huh, I have not heard of this.
Speaker 1: No, I have heard of this. I come across this
Speaker 1: one a couple times, but I forgot about it for
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably a good year here until Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was mentioned again in Patreon.
Speaker 2: And I mean, like we kind of have said, we
Speaker 2: don't really know, but just like listening to the story,
Speaker 2: it seemed like it was just like such a nice family.
Speaker 2: Like she's making food and wants all our family to
Speaker 2: come over, and wrapping gifts that she went and picked out,
Speaker 2: and like allowing a kid a kid to live on
Speaker 2: the property, and oh my gosh, huh, Like you.
Speaker 1: Said, though we don't know, maybe the family was abusive.
Speaker 2: I know, we don't know.
Speaker 1: That's not an excuse to kill them. That's not an
Speaker 1: excuse to kill anyone. Money is at an excuse to
Speaker 1: kill anyone. Money is money. It doesn't dictate your life
Speaker 1: as much as you think. I know, money makes the
Speaker 1: world spend, but it's not worth a life.
Speaker 2: But I also find it a bit hard to believe
Speaker 2: that if it was, like if they were all abusive,
Speaker 2: and then but she's living on the property, you think
Speaker 2: that she just want nothing to do with them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know forrick hole is shit w a story.
Speaker 1: What we do know is that she did, in that
Speaker 1: instant have a second chance mm hmm, and she used
Speaker 1: that second chance to go through with it. She killed
Speaker 1: her family along with Joseph helping her. Whether she was
Speaker 1: manipulating him, the family abusing her, it's all up for debate.
Speaker 1: The fact remains the family was murdered unnecessarily.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but honestly, when you're in that heat
Speaker 2: of the moment and you've made this decision, I can't
Speaker 2: I feel like not very many people would take that
Speaker 2: as a signal shit, like I'm not going to do this.
Speaker 2: You care about that when people are say kid emitting suicide,
Speaker 2: but not necessarily like killing their family or own people.
Speaker 1: But that's exactly what that was. It was a second chance.
Speaker 1: A lot of people, when they pull that trigger, there
Speaker 1: is no going back. There is. It's done. She pulled
Speaker 1: that trigger and there was an opportunity to go back.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How how many people out there who have pulled the trigger?
Speaker 1: Maybe even say it's a war veteran who's defending a
Speaker 1: country something like that, that's going to affect them. I'm
Speaker 1: sure many people out there after the second that trigger
Speaker 1: was pulled and a life was taken, they wish they
Speaker 1: could take it back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what a buzzkill.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, kidding, a buzzkill of.
Speaker 2: An episode for Christmas.
Speaker 1: Hopefully you guys are having a merry Christmas, spending good
Speaker 1: time with your family. Hopefully this is just putting the
Speaker 1: cherry on top of your holidays.
Speaker 2: I mean that would be a buzzkill at any moment,
Speaker 2: but I feel like shit like this during the holidays.
Speaker 2: It does kind of add to it, you know, it
Speaker 2: makes it a bit worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So no, you're right, You're definitely right. Thank you
Speaker 1: guys for being here though, thank you for listening. Sorry
Speaker 1: came out a little bit late today. We did take
Speaker 1: a little bit of extra time enjoying our Christmas time
Speaker 1: with our family, so we had to do a bit
Speaker 1: more research and recording a little bit prolonged, but we
Speaker 1: are still getting this episode out today. Hopefully you are
Speaker 1: having a great Christmas, Boxing Day holiday all the above.
Speaker 1: If you want to check out our social links all
Speaker 1: down below, you can join Patreon, where maybe you can
Speaker 1: get a chance to recommend a case to directly us
Speaker 1: and we can be doing a case like this because hey,
Speaker 1: you told us to never know. If not, you're here.
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. You're awesome, You're wicked.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, ditt oh, just kidding. Happy holidays, We're all said. Honestly,
Speaker 2: Happy holidays. I hope everyone's kind of getting a chance
Speaker 2: to sit back, reflect and enjoy, you know, enjoy their
Speaker 2: life here. Yeah tomorrow, wait, promise to anyone.
Speaker 1: No it's not. And if you're ever given a second chance,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe reflect on that for a moment.
Speaker 2: Well done, ben So, until next time, stay wicked.