Speaker 1: The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
an idea.
Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.
Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If
I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,
not because I put my hand on a book and
made a wish and working together for a more rational world.
Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth,
Usian wisdom will come to you that way.
Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
Speaker 2: So I took a road trip. I was doing a
speaking a couple of speaking gigs. The word gig makes
it sound like I'm a band, but I was doing
an event at Metroplex Atheists in fort Worth and then
Houston Oasis, and so I decided to drive and got
up early Saturday morning about four point thirty, got myself together,
pointed the car south and then I drove to fort Worth,
spoke at an event midday, hopped in the car, drove
to Houston, spoke at Houston Oasis Sunday morning, pointed north,
drove all the way home. It was I mean, I
was exhausted by the time I got back, but it
was awesome. It was a lot of fun. But one
thing about road trips is it gives me a chance
to clear my head, to kind of get my thoughts together.
So I'm sitting there in the car, cruising along seventy
nine miles an hour in a seventy five zone. This
is my sweet spot because in my brain I'm thinking, Okay,
you can speed just a little bit. Like if a
cop sees me go by it seventy nine, I'm not
worth the trouble. I'm not the target. It's somebody cruising
by it eighty five or ninety that's the target. So
always feel kind of safe. Seventy nine miles an hour,
and I'm watching the white line and I'm thinking, and
I was just I mean, I found myself really really
thinking about hypocrisy. Throughout our history. Hasn't it almost always
been the moralizers who are the biggest hypocrites. I mean,
the people who were thumping their chests and clutching their
pearls and banging their bibles and decrying the injustice and
immorality of it all. Isn't it almost always them that
are the biggest hypocrites, okay, and I'm going to go
someplace that you may not expect. I have said before,
and I've been watching Elon Musk with increasing distaste. I
think Tesla's are great cars. I like a lot of
what SpaceX has been doing with NASA. I'm a fan
of space exploration. I think the Mars mission, you know,
colonizing Mars, that's a fantasy. That's a freaking waste. That's
a billionaire in his sandbox, a big boy with expensive toys,
total waste of resources. I think that's stupid. But a
lot of the other stuff I kind of buy and
I appreciate. And I used to really admire the billionaire
back when I was a Fox News evangelical Christian capitalist.
And I'm not opposed to capitalism as long as it's managed.
But I mean, back in the day, I would look
at the people sitting atop a mountain of money and go, yeah, yeah,
that's the dream. They climbed to the top and they
achieved the American dream. And today I just see something different.
You know, aren't most, if not all, of those people hoarders,
no matter how innovative they are, no matter how much
they have invented and innovated, no matter how hard they
have worked. And I'm not trying to diminish the innovators
and risk takers and hard workers in this world. And
I don't deny anybody the wealth that comes with success.
Good for you. I am happy for you. That's the
dream for all of us. Okay, But this idea that
their wealth was totally made by one person, and no,
it was made on the backs of others, the hard
work of others, often the exploitation of others. And what's
the average pay at Amazon? I think it's like between
fifteen and fifty or sixty an hour, depending on your position. Fine,
then CEO Jeff Bezos made two million dollars an hour. Okay,
I'm not denying he should be well paid as the
founder and CEO two million dollars every hour. When does
that become obscene? When does it become obscene? He bought
was it last year? The year before? A five hundred
million dollars super yacht? I mean you talk about luxury,
two hundred and fifty feet long, three outdoor decks. It
had two swimming pools on the yacht, a movie theater,
a bunch of meeting rooms. It had its own support boats,
so wherever the yacht would go, there'd be another yacht
behind it. And that second boat had a helipad, so
that Jeff Bezos's Beyonce could land her helicopter on the
boat number two, and then I guess get ferried over
over to the big super yacht. It's got four jet skis.
It can even lift a small submarine if Jeff decides
he wants to buy one. And the price of this
one boat, the one super yacht could build if you
called it one hundred grand for a house. So now
it's not a luxury house. And I know the housing
prizes are sky high, but let's call it one hundred
grand for a house. Okay, you could build like five thousand,
one hundred thousand dollars homes. With that money. You could
feed almost thirty thousand families of five for an entire year.
With that money, Jeff Bezos could install fifty thousand fresh
water wells in underdeveloped countries all around the world, places
that have contaminated drinking water that carry toxins and disease.
I mean, it's amazing. Maybe hundreds of millions of people
no longer getting sick from the water that they are
forced to drink. He could buy name brand shoes. I mean,
I know many of them getting to the hundreds of dollars.
But let's say you found a ninety nine dollars pair
of Nike or Adidas or whatever. He could buy five
million pairs of shoes for people around the world who
don't have shoes and are forced to go barefoot. They
can't even afford sandals. And those people exist, right. This
is insulin for diabetes, it is cancer research. It's rebuilding
neighborhoods that are locked into poverty. That's what one boat,
one toy from a billionaire might be able to accomplish.
But no, Jeff needs a couple of swimming pools on
top of a luxury yacht that can only accommodate eighteen guests.
And you know his guests are also probably be dirty, rotten, filthy, stinking,
rich and removed from the everyday problems of this world.
So here I am, and I'm watching Christians all around me,
people who supposedly follow the best teachings of Jesus Christ.
One Timothy six ' ten says the love of money
is the root of all evil. Matthew six twenty four.
You can't serve God and money. The same chapter in
Matthew says not to store up treasures on earth, but
in heaven Ecclesiastes five to ten. Those who love money
practice vanity, and vanity is the sin. Proverb sixteen. Wisdom
is better than gold Hebrews thirteen five. Keep your life
free from love of money, and be content with what
you have. Matthew nineteen. The rich man walked up to Jesus,
remember the story. He walks up and he says, Teacher,
what must I do to get eternal life? And among
the many commands that Christ gave him, he told the
rich guy, go and sell your possessions and give to
the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. And
then come follow me. And Christians read those and they
hear these verses at Sunday church and they get all
misty eyed. Yes, yes, the love of money is the
root of all evil. And then these same Jesus followers
look up and there's dude stashing away and wasting away
more money than they would see in a thousand lifetimes,
living like a king, while people are starving and suffering
all over the planet. And they're like yeah. Yeah, that's
the goal, man, that's what we want, that's the dream.
That's the American way. Explain this to me. There's a
meme floating around and it articulates the problem like this.
It said, if a monkey hoarded more bananas than it
could possibly eat, while most of the other monkeys starved,
scientists would be studying the one monkey to find out
what was wrong with it. And yet when humans do this,
we put their faces on the cover of Forbes magazine,
celebrity bling jewelry, you know, the stuff you see on
the E Network and Access Hollywood, et cetera. People giving
out engagement in wedding rings.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I mean not that we shouldn't want value or seek value,
but we all know that the diamond industry is bullshit,
you know, the de Beers Company, all of it. This
is all perception. We know that these rocks and their
rocks are not worth nearly what they are priced. They're
simply selling us the notion, the perception of value. We
talked about this on a show maybe ten years ago,
and we got into the wedding industry and how it
has really branded itself onto I know, especially the American psyche,
and it may not be as true in this audience,
but in the world in general. Let's say you proposed
to someone and you give them a ring. If that
ring is worth three thousand dollars, five thousand dollars or more,
there is I don't know, there's a sense of worth,
personal worth that gets attached to that. Now they sacrificed.
What was the commercial that said, isn't this worth one
month's salary, you know, to demonstrate your love? I can't
remember the jeweler company, but it was like something about
one month's salary. It's totally worth it. Right now, If
this same person was to propose and they gave their
fiance or you know who they wanted to be their fiance,
say a ring that was worth three hundred bucks, the
recipient might be insulted. What the hell would you go
to big lots? Did you find this in a pawn shop?
Did you pick it up off the ground? Did you
see it in the street? Did you steal it? Don't
you love me? Don't you care? Am I not worth
more than three hundred dollars?
Speaker 4: Do you?
Speaker 2: I mean, we see this, We see this kind of
perception of value branded onto our brains. So then you
see the celebrities, and I'm just going through because and
they usually focus on the women, because that's how these
entertainment shows work. So I was looking and most of
the names I saw were females. But I mean, they're
both guilty of blaing. Kanye West, don't even get me started, right,
but Kim Kardashian's ring four million, Mariah Carey's ring ten million,
the ring that was once worn by Jackie Oh. Those
diamonds are worth twenty two million dollars. It's a freaking rock.
It's a rock, one little rock you stick on your finger,
twenty two million dollars. You could buy a closet full
of clothes for one hundred and fifty thousand people who
can't even afford a shirt on their back. You could,
fully you could fill a closet, a relatively moderate closet,
for one hundred and fifty thousand people suffering, needy people
in this world. Or you can wear a rock, and
you can if you want it. You can go out
and you could find a fake or something that wasn't
quite as quote unquote rare, that didn't cost nearly as much.
Get the same look, you get the same bling, but
there's something else going on, and we look at that waste.
And I've seen this in the church. I certainly see
it among evangelical conservatives, where they see this and they're
like value value. Let's say that a parent is raising
a child, son or daughter. I'll go with Sun in
this example, all right, the Sun goes to elementary school
and grabs almost all the cafeteria food while his fellow
students go hungry for the rest of the day. A
parent would be outraged by that. He gets a job,
but he demands that he gets most of the wages
while everybody else gets paid very little. He becomes the
hoa director for his neighborhood, and yet instead of doing
improvements for them, he hoards most of the money for himself.
He lives in a village. He diverts the stream so
that he gets almost all the water and everybody else
pretty much gets nothing. He powers his mansion. The others
do not get electricity and must live in the dark.
I mean you do something like you put those scenarios
out and say, Mom, Dad, I did this. The parents
would be horrified. You failed as a child, We failed
as a parent. This is not how we raised you.
You're supposed to be a person of honor, decency, and empathy,
sharing things right, sharing things, help out your fellow man
and woman. Now, these same people who would be horrified
at their children being hoarders look up and they see
Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, the Koch Brothers, whoever, billionaires,
and they're like, yeah, kids, that's the target right there. Yeah,
that's the target. That's success, that's the dream. The hypocrisy
is unreal. And I'll take this a step further. Since
we're talking about hypocrisy, how do parents train their kids
to treat people right? Tell the truth. If you give
your word, keep your word, Be a hard worker, have
a good work ethic, be diligent, Be a friend to
those who don't have friends. If you're on the playground,
don't be a bully. Stand up against the bullies and
stand for the oppressed. Heal people, don't hurt them. Be
of good character and surround yourself with people who are
of good character. And if you succeed, and when you succeed,
surround yourself with people that you can also help succeed.
Be the rising tide that raises all the ships. This
is the kind of stuff that parents rightly teach children,
and then these same parents support and enable and even
worship the most cruel and abusive people in the world.
What is maga if not a cult of cruelty? Watch
any Donald Trump's speech and listen to the chanting of
the crowds. Listen to the tone, read the signs that
they carry in the marches and the rallies, nastiness, bullying.
Watched them cheer the man whose family used to deny
housing two black people who lawyered passed having to pay
his own vendors. Right, he made a business deal, and
then he just decided not to pay because he could
imagine you and I doing that in full view of
family and friends. They think we were a piece of shit.
The man who's hot for his own daughter, he's hot
for his daughter. I mean, it's creepy. Our loved ones
would be horrified if we were that way. Hey, mom, dad, family, friends. Today,
I kind of gave myself permission to just waltz into
the dressing room of a teen USA pageant so I
could get a look at the hot young girls. Oh man,
I mean it was awesome, and they let me do
it because of who I am. I'm a convicted sex offender. Everybody.
Can you imagine the embarrassment and shame they would feel.
I faked out my investors. I built fake universities. I
stole from a children's charity. I told my followers they
should be bullies, people of revenge. I mocked disabled people. Today,
I blatantly tell everyone within earshot that I'm the most
important person. In fact, I am far above them all.
I have never seen hypocrisy at this level. I've never
seen anything like it. Imagine a teenage boy going home
and telling his mother, you know, Mom, today I grabbed
a girl by the pussy and they let me do it.
Because I'm me. They let me do it. I moved
on her like a bitch. Everybody within earshot would be
horrified and devastated. They would launch into immediate condemnation and intervention.
Donald Trump says it, and there are some mothers attending
Trump rallies wearing t shirts that say Trump can grab
my pussy. I cannot believe it. Back before the election,
Donald Trump said he could go out on Fifth Avenue
shoot another human being and he wouldn't lose any votes.
And he was absolutely right. I say you know what,
I could go out and murder somebody and I'd be
just as popular. How fucked up would that be to
the people we said it to in our lives? But
when Trump does it, it's strength. Yeah, yeah, you know what.
That's power, that's influence. That's somebody who can make up
his his own rules, beholden to no one. That's the dream.
Why would hoarding and lording and cruelty be terrible and
then suddenly be awesome? Is it all about money and power?
Is it all transactional? You know, you got to break
some eggs if you want to make an omelet. And
as long as it's the other person who's exploited and
not us, I mean, what do we care? You know,
if they're that week, if they're exploitable, you know, I mean,
maybe this is like a Darwinian thing, survival of the fittest.
Maybe it's a chance to weed out the undesirables. So yeah,
go ahead and exploit them. Ah whatever, as long as
it doesn't negatively impact me. What the hell kind of
talk is that? It's like that old question. I don't
know if you've heard this one, but someone goes up
to a married person that say, hey, could I get
you to cheat on your spouse for a million dollars?
And the person says million bucks. Hell you, I'd shoe
it on my spouse for a million? Okay, Well would
you do it for one dollar? And the person gets
indignant and says a dollar What kind of person do
you think I am? And the questioner says, we already
know what kind of person you are right now, we're
just haggling over the price. At what point does morality
get bought? Does a dollar figure change what is right
and what is wrong? And we live in a country
that worships celebrity and money. We love it celebrity and money.
The dumber it is, the better it is, the more
we lap it up. And I suspect that there's a
whole culture of people that thinks it's just fine to
destroy anything and everything standing between you and the pot
of gold. In the case of Maga, totally unaware. These
people are totally unaware that Donald Trump, the man they worship,
holds them in contempt. You think Donald Trump would give
Magas the time of day in real life. You think
he'd have them over for dinner. You think he would
speak to him in any sort of relevant personal way.
Are they going to come over and be wined and
dined at marl Lago and join them for a round
of golf? Blah blahh. Of course not. These people would
never be accepted in the land of Trump. They would
never be given the keys to the big skyscraper with
the golden toilet in the bathroom. They are just resources
to be exploited by the hoarder. They are grist for
the mill. The oligarchs are crushing them on their own
climb to the top, and those being crushed you're like,
thank you very much. That's the dream. One day we
like to not be the crushy. We want to be
the crusher. Unbelievable hypocrisy. I'm just struck by it. I've
been using this conversation in my own life, this tactic
if someone talks about the I don't mean to be crass,
but I'm going back to the grab them by the
pussy line, because it's probably the most famous and was
pre election, so everybody knew what it was and knew
who he was, and they voted for him anyway. Right
The evangelicals said, ah, yeah, that's cool, no problem, it's
locker room talk. Nobody's perfect. I elected a president, not
a pastor. They've got a whole laundry list of excuses
for why they can enable this predator. But I'd like
to attach a proper name to it. What if it
was your daughter that he grabbed? What if it was
your mother or your sister? What if it was your
wife that he grabbed? How quickly would you check that box?
And it always gives people pause, It always stops them
in their tracks, and they get uncomfortable, and sometimes the
conversations have gotten uncomfortable and ended rather abruptly. But I
know I gave him something to think about, because then
it becomes real. Right, then it becomes real. What if
the person he moved on like a bitch was your wife?
And I think that's a very effective way to bring
this home because otherwise they're just allowing it, enabling it,
or they're wearing the T shirts that celebrate it. I
just can't believe it. In this world where there are
so many resources, what if the hoarders and the abusers,
what if they committed all that energy to bettering the
world around them, to lifting up instead of tearing down.
I know it sounds like a John Lennon song. But
why not? It's a beautiful song. This is the kind
of thing I was thinking about recently, and I thought
maybe you might be thinking the same things as well.
I am interested in what you're thinking about this or
whatever else is on your mind. Let me take a
short break. We'll take your calls after this. Are you
a fan of true stories, interesting history, celebrity trivia, true crime,
weird news? And you're gonna love my podcast True Stories
with Seth Andrews And I'm your host, Seth Andrews, releasing
five minute podcast vignettes three times a week. Search True
Stories with Seth Andrews on Speaker and all major podcast apps,
or visit the website True Stories podcast dot com. Today
we're talking about the hoarding of resources on a planet
where we should have enough for everybody, but somehow don't. Anyway,
that's been my rant, But I'm going to the phones
now to find out what you would like to rant about.
I've got David at three three zero. David, Are you there?
Speaker 4: Hi?
Speaker 5: Can you hear me?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 2: I can? Indeed, what's on your mind?
Speaker 5: Well, everything you've talked about so far in your introduction
is something that has passed through my mind at some
time in the past several years. Thank you very much
for voicing it. I was thinking because I dialed in
right at the beginning of something a bit topical is
the recent news of Biden passing the torch to Kamala Harris.
And he was one of the last people on my list,
behind Pete Bootage Edge and Bernie Sanders. But he's done
a fantastic job. I thought he would be maybe a
good custodian, but he's really become one of our probably
most respectable presidents. But one of the jobs I always
thought he I need to do is to pass the
torch to the next generation. And I think he's finally
done that. And now we've got a prosecutor who is
going up against a convicted selling And I don't mean
it necessarily changed the topic, but that was what was
on my mind.
Speaker 2: No, I think it's totally valid. You bring up Joe
Biden and people want it to be binary, right, He's
either the greatest or the worst. And I just think
that's not how life is, it's not how politics is.
It's just not how this whole thing works. I'm frustrated
with how he has handled Israel. Palestine. I have been
in the past frustrated with his religiosity and the National
Prayer breakfast and some of that language. But I'll tell
you a time and again, whenever he has made a
public statement, it has been one of inclusion. He's been
the person who has said you are valid and you
should be equal. He has stood up for LGBT people.
He stood up for the rights of women. And whenever
Donald Trump gets shot in the ear, Joe Biden calls
Donald Trump and says, I'm glad you're okay, right, I'm
glad you survived. I'm glad the assassin wasn't successful. Well,
that's a character thing. I mean, that is something that
Donald Trump would have never done in reverse, and I
agree this is not even remotely equivalent, especially when after
that phone called Donald Trump glibly truth social a photograph
of Biden tripping down the stairs to make fun of him.
This man has no idea what compassion looks like. And
I'm convinced Biden is a man of values. Is a
perfect no. But I have been impressed with him. I
have also been monumentally frustrated with him as a candidate.
I do find myself saying, is this the best we have,
and so whenever he decided to step down, I was
relieved and I would definitely Takeamala Harris. She's tough, she's smart, refreshingly,
she's not an old white guy in the long history
of this country, never having not once a female president,
and just shows you how much catching up we have
to do. And it wouldn't be a token president. If
anybody's qualified, I think Kamala Harris is, so I'm actually
excited to see if she's going to officially be the nominee.
I don't know what to look like whenever this show
airs in a few days, but I myself, I think
it's a step forward and I think she would destroy
Donald Trump in terms of credibility and delivery in a
one on one exchange.
Speaker 5: Thanks a lot for your comments. It's nice to have
somebody who has a voice and the attention of others
to make the comments. So thank you, Seth. It's been
a pleasure to talk to you. I've been watching you
for quite a while. I've been a converted atheist for
about fair thirty years now my sixties, and I've followed
your story and I hope you get to do this again.
Sometimes It's the first time I've gotten in touch with you,
but thanks for the topical conversation. It's been a lot
of fun and wishing you the best for the rest
of your show.
Speaker 2: You very kind. Thanks for coming. We'll see you later, David,
see you later. Hell, Joe Biden could have stayed in
the race, been on life support and I still would
have voted for him because I'm voting for a platform,
and I'm voting to stop Trump cult before it completely
destroys the country I live in. I've got Jared two
six ' nine. Are you there? Hey, Seph, thanks for calling.
What's on your mind?
Speaker 7: Beig fan and a patron.
Speaker 2: Very kind.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I wanted to talk about hippie Christians with you,
but a couple thoughts. If Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos
paid their Texas and maybe America could afford a penis
shape rocket you know.
Speaker 2: You know what, though, I had this conversation with the believer.
I don't mean to hijack you, but you brought something
up and I'm sitting on the edge of my chair. Okay,
I brought this up with another evangelical and I said,
these people are able to use their power to avoid
social responsibility.
Speaker 7: But the thing is they're profiting off of things the
government provides, a stable workforce, a legal framework, like all
this stuff, and if they don't pay into the system,
they're just robbing us. I mean, we know what's wrong
on the right, and you know, beat that horse, but
I feel it's important to call it up people on
our own side. And I realized that I call them
hippie Christians, the kind of Christians who ignore ninety nine
percent of the Bible and say love of Jesus. And
I realized most of them are our allies. You know,
they're for the most part, for secular government, which is
where we need to be. But you see them doing
the no Scotsman's fallacy. They point at the evangelical they said, oh,
they're not real Christians. Well, I don't know how you
define a Christian, but I guess one metric would be
how much of the Bible you ignore? So by that metric,
these hippie Christians aren't Christians at all. They ignore ninety
nine percent of that book. I got to tell you,
I see the maga type Christians as being Christians because
they actually believe those things the Bible says, like persecuting gays,
stony adulters, things like that. So I don't know what
you think of that.
Speaker 2: I'm of two minds. I go back and forth, and
I think both positions are valid. I'm not trying to
be a politician on this, but on one side, I'm
thankful for the moderate. I would take a wishy, washy
moderate Christian any day over the hateful, bigoted, fundie Bible literalist. Right.
I'll take the happy, clappy Jesus loves everybody. I'll take
that if you give me a choice. But those people
are giving cover to a dogma that is false and
destructive by saying, well, true Christianity is all loving and
it's all this and it's all that. Well, I'm like, well,
you haven't read your Bible, and by protecting the Christian
brand in this way, you're giving cover to people who
are doing real harm.
Speaker 7: Well, my bigger frustration is with the political discourse right,
because if we're going to argue about which flavor of
Jesus we want in charge, we're not actually debating the policy.
I remember, back when they were jailing children and family
separation at the border, they quoted Romans whatever on the right,
but then people on the left are like, oh, that's
not what my Jesus would do. Okay, can we stop
discussing which flavor of Jesus we want here and talk
about the actual issues. That's my problem with those kind
of Christians. They're legitimizing that form of debate. So I
guess that's my big beef.
Speaker 2: With it, and it's a legitimate one, Jared, and I
appreciate you bringing it to the table. Hey, thanks roy DUSA,
thanks for colling. Gotu later, Laura at six six what's
on your mind?
Speaker 3: Honestly, I've been having really bad anxiety in thinking it's life,
and then I had this total tiffany while I was waiting, like, no,
this is completely because Trump and Naga like I as
somebody who feels like she is an impact just some
stuff I've done, and I feel like since I have
deconstructed from Christianity, I am the most Christian I've ever been,
and so I can feel the turmoil in the country,
in the world. It's hard because I my job, I
work with kids with special needs. I feel more like
when I started working with kids with special needs, everybody
I worked with was an atheist, a non Christian, that
was had nothing to do with how I was giving
back and the people that were leading it, how there
was no mention of God Christianity. And I actually used
that time because that was the first year of Trump's presidency,
because my anxiety had thyrocketed when the man that said
grabbed a woman by its pussy was running the country,
and the Republicans in my life were trying to tell
me that this man who said that was chosen by God.
At the same time, I learned at that moment what truly,
if there was a God or Jesus or whatever, what
it felt to give back and to move forward, and
it truly feel wonderful and the blessing to see lives change.
And how I have this juxtaposition of losing faith but
gaining faith in humanity because I actually consider myself a
humanist because that's the way I feel like I feel.
I love everybody. We are one huge family. It does
sound hippity dippity, and you say about John, you know Lennon,
Actually Yoko wrote those words actually for Imagine, but that's
truly his. The hippany is like what true geath and
love and everything? And what is the song called Imagine? Imagine, Yes,
it would be an amazing place.
Speaker 2: I think anxiety. I think fear for the future, wondering
how bad it's going to get, because every time we
think we've hit bottom, there's a new bottom. I think worrying,
you know, about the safety in every way of ourselves
and our fellow human beings. I don't think that's hyperbole.
I think it's warranted, and I think it means you
are a moral person who wants morality to win the day.
So just know you're not alone.
Speaker 3: Laura, Thank you, And I love hearing other people with
the same I don't feel as alone, so that's why
I'm very glad that I always do Oh trust me
and try to participate in this conversation.
Speaker 2: I have been speaking out on the road and we'll
sometimes do some Q and A after my presentation, and
this kind of thing inevitably comes up, and everybody's articulating
how jacked up this country is and how scared they
are for the future, and how did we get here,
and what does it mean and what's going to happen.
You are not alone, so just remember that, but also
remember the good because there are many good people fighting
that fight with you.
Speaker 6: Okay, thank you.
Speaker 3: Have a great rest of today.
Speaker 2: Thanks Laura Catu. Later the lyrics to imagine, I pulled
up to imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try.
No hell below us, above us, only sky. Imagine all
the people living for today. Imagine there's no countries. It
isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die for,
and no religion too. Imagine all the people live in
life and peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but
I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join
us and the world will be as one. Imagine no possessions.
I wonder if you can no need for greed or hunger.
A brotherhood of man. Imagine all the people sharing all
the world. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm
not the only one. I hope you'll join us and
the world will live as one. Becky at nine to
eight zero, Thanks for waiting. Are you there?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm here.
Speaker 2: Appreciate your calling. I'm doing well, but on your mind.
Speaker 4: I didn't have a question for you, but first I
want to address what young lady that you just spoke with.
I feel it, I mean absolutely, the anxiety has been weird.
I mean I've been knowing this was coming down the
pipe since twenty fifteen. The way I've handled my anxiety
was that in November twenty sixteen, I started smoking marijuana again.
Hadn't spoken in thirty years. I've been hitting that pipe
hard for eight years now. My question, though, to you,
is you can't be a hardcore thinking atheist all the time.
Set now when you're relaxing, when sometimes you need to
go a little place somewhere else just to feel better
about the future and our place in this planet, on
this planet, our eight.
Speaker 2: The thinking atheist obviously is an aspiration, it's an icon.
It's not a person. I'm not a great thinker. You
know I'm pretty slow. You know I am not a
great mind. No, this is not false modesty. Trust me.
I've shared this show with guests who are really, really,
really smart. I'm the guy that took thirty years to
figure out that men could not live to be a
thousand years old. So this is an honest statement. I
don't know. I'm interested in mindfulness. That's mostly what I've
been focused on in the past few years. If I
was any religion right now, I would probably be a Buddhist,
like a secular Buddhist the idea of mindfulness, trying to
center yourself away from anxiety, being in the moment, meditation,
clearing all of that stuff outs as a force of will,
you know, creating an atmosphere where you can focus on
your breathing and sort of lock out the rest of
the world. Natalie and I started to do yoga a
few months ago, and there's some of that woven in there.
It's not like wacky Maharishi light crystals and incense yoga.
It's more about reward yourself, protect yourself, be mindful, and
be thankful. There's a lot of that kind of language.
That's the place I go, Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 4: Yeah, all right, I'll tell you a question.
Speaker 2: Oh you're good, thanks, appreciate you, see you later. I
don't know now that I think about it, like how
do I center myself? Where do I go? Where do
I retreat? Exercise has been good for me. I go
out and play tennis in the sun. It's good to
get outdoors, sweat it out, expend some energy, you know,
blow off some steam. That's been good. I'm a big
movie buff. I'll tell you if I really if I
feel kind of stuck, like emotionally creatively. Oh my gosh,
this sounds so cornball, but I like to get in
a car, usually when it's dark out, and I drive
listening to film music, instrumental movie scores, stuff like The
Village Soundtrack by James Newton Howard always transports me into
kind of a zen place just I don't know, it
just feeds me in some way. Or maybe if I'm
feeling a little more aggressive, I put in tron Legacy
by Daft Punk. I mean, it could be almost anything
but music. We all know, music that transports us and
sort of sweeps us up and takes us on a journey. Well,
now I'm no longer being pounded over the head by
the worst of what's going on in the headlines. Now
I'm able to just breathe and chill and center and
imagine and create. And That's been good medicine for me.
Time with Natalie and the dog. You know, I don't know.
I mean, I think we all have our our safe places,
our havens that allow us to plug in and recharge
the battery. Rich from Rochester at five eight five.
Speaker 6: Are you there, Yes, Sam, sir? How you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm doing well? What's on your mind?
Speaker 6: Rich here in notister Tom Gallasano. He built an empire
on it's called paychecks. They do everybody's hr their taxes,
and they do their their finances and do their payroll.
That's especially payroll is the big thing. And he, you know,
he's this hero around the town and he'll get on
he gets on the public radio Clay and he talks
about how hard he works when he was younger and
all that. But he had all these friends and bankers
who helped him. And when I call him being a
black man, I say to him, so what about you
know what happened to black people?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 6: I don't believe that they you know, they could have
worked hard like me. And I said to him, you know,
but you just said because of the friends you had
and the connections you had, you were able to get
to support. But that's not the worst thing about this man.
This man moves to Cannondego, actually in the same area
the finger like so you were. He moves to Cannondega,
Buise's biggest state, beautiful acres of lawn. This asshole who
was worth ten billion dollars, he's probably worth one hundred
times the amount that entire town is Mith. He sues
the town because the geese are shitting on his lawn
and they won't and the town won't take the geese
off his lawn. Yet they make him a hero because
he puts his name on hospitals and you know, children's wards,
and he puts his names on the School of Business
in rit Rochester, Institute of Technology or whatever school he puts.
So he's this fucking hero, and I think he is ghastly.
I think he's the most one of the most immoral
people around. Can you imagine with his resources, suing this
town because the geese are shitting on his lawn.
Speaker 2: On I think these people become detached from the real world.
Speaker 6: When you are worth that much money, the amount of
revenue and resources you take out of a society and
an economy and see fit it's stagnant in your stocks
or whatever it is. But they are doing nothing. So
the old days, where a guy like that or someone
like that had that amount of money, if they kept
this stash it was taxed at eighty percent, it would
force them to invest it in the society. So therefore
it makes the society better. Also, when you give welfare,
if you give someone thirty thousand dollars a year, and
they spend twenty eight of it in your society. Guess
what does better for society? Why do you think Walmart
supports food stamps because they know those people will spend
that money. There are so many ways. I even look
at all the isms sexism, racism and stuff.
Speaker 2: When you are.
Speaker 6: Using the energy it takes to keep people down, draw
because it is a it is a conscious decision to
keep people in a certain position, you are wasting energy time.
I always ask people how much money and how stronger
would if Hitler would have been if he had not
spent time killing six million Jews and six million others.
The resources, the logistics and everything it took to do that.
Not only did he turn to people that he had
in a society against him, he used resources that could
have otherwise been sent into the work. These are the
things that people don't think about. Then I think about.
You know, I always ask this question of wealthy. You
know people who are conservatives, I says, we know in
a capitalist society they will always be poor. There's no
way you can do it. I said. We call full
employment four percent, so we know that there's in the
United States at four percent. There's going to be these
forty million people or whatever million people who will never
have a job. You know, factually, they will always exist.
What are we to do with him?
Speaker 2: When I was younger and a little more naive, I
remember thinking, well, it's their own fault they don't want
to work or they're late. Not that laziness doesn't exist.
We know it does. We know there are people who
simply refuse to participate in a society, and they will.
There are people who are producers and takers, and that's
a whole other conversation. But I used to write it off,
you know. I used to be like, ah, you know,
if you don't have a job, it's your own fault.
This America, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Which was
absolutely a position of privilege, and it was a way
to take all these people who were disadvantaged with a
deck stacked against them, and I can just write them
off and blame them, right. It was victim blaming.
Speaker 6: There's so much of this going on in this country,
and to the anxiety of Trump getting in the White
House again, tell me what great nation and great empire
doesn't end up in a place that they self destruct.
From Rome to China to all of them, and even
the British, and you know, the one thing, that telling
thing that you see and all these looking at it.
Historically they all end up with the barbarians, the outsider.
They all become greater than everybody else. Everybody else is
worse than they are, and when they get to that
level of entitlement, they self destruct. What makes people think
we won't do the same thing. The americanceptionalism is going
to be our downfall. And you know when people say, well,
both sides. Anytime someone tells me both sides, that means
that they are in a morally indefensible position. So they says,
well both sides. Do it. When you hear that kind
of language, be wary of that person of what they're saying.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes people who are weary of all the
noise and they simply are not engaged, they are ignorant,
don't know the facts, or maybe they're just resentful and
are looking for an excuse not to participate in any solutions.
Their way out is to say, eh, everything's screwed. They're
all equally bad, they're equally correct, they are no different.
So I'm going to take my ball and go home.
And I think people are motivated in a lot of ways,
different ways for taking that position. But you're right, it's
either a position of privilege, or it's I think it
can be laziness, or you know, just bad reasoning. This idea,
you could look at both candidates, both parties, both situations
and make any kind of an equivalence argument to me
makes my brain explode. Rich That's good stuff. Thanks for
being a part of today's conversation, my friend.
Speaker 6: Thank you, sir.
Speaker 2: I had a couple of thoughts. First of all, I
posted this and several people pushed back. I borrowed this
idea from somebody else, but I memed it and it
said this, I think we should outlaw billionaires instead. At
nine hundred ninety nine million, nine hundred ninety nine, nine
hundred ninety nine dollars, we can give them a plaque
that says congratulations, you've won capitalism. Then we name a
dog park after them, and we use their surplus to
house clothe, feed, and medically treat needy and hurting people.
And I do I advocate you. I mean, if you
get to some certain point in this society, knowing that
this society helped you to make the money. You do
have a responsibility, and I think there should be a
cap and we take the rest of it and we
distribute it to the needy to benefit the society that
benefited you. I agree with that. Some people came in
and they were like, well, do you really want to
limit people or do you want to take away their rights?
You know, everybody talks about rights, but they don't talk
about responsibilities. On the other side of the coin. Have
you heard about this guy, and this is several years old,
the CEO of Japan Airlines, Haruka Nishimatsu. This man cut
his own salary. He's CEO of Japan Airlines, or he
was at the time of the story. He cut his
salary to ninety thousand dollars a year. He eats lunch
in the cafeteria with the employees. Because they had to
make company white reductions. He knew his time to tighten
the purse strings. He decided he was going to do
the common man approach. He was going to lead by example.
He took the walls out of his office so that
his employees could approach him. He buys his clothes at
a discount store. He doesn't wear ARMANI or VERSACEI or whatever,
and he jumps on planes from time to time to
help out the flight attendance and talk to the passengers
because he wants to engage with the company that he manages.
This guy made global news because he was saying, you
know what, we're all in this together, and ninety thousand
dollars a year in two thousand and five a solid
living man, I'll be I can pay my bills with that,
and I'm going to lead by example. I found that
story so refreshing. It just blows my mind. It makes
me think, well, maybe not all CEOs of big organizations
are hoarders. We've got more time, that means more calls,
short break, be right back. Thanks for your support on Paytreon.
Really does make a difference. If you like what you hear,
you'd like the show two days early and commercial free
paytreon dot com. Slash Seth andrews Keith at nine to
seven zero, Thanks for waiting? Are you there, Hey, Seth?
Speaker 8: How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm well? Thank you? Keith? What's going on?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 8: I have been going through my own faith journey as
we all do. I grew up in the Mormon faith
and later got the Evangelical Christianity, and in the last
few years, I've really, as I've researched, come to a
point where I've developed very serious questions about my faith.
I don't think I'm quite to the point you are,
but I certainly don't believe in God as espoused in
the Christian Bible or in the other Holy Book. And
as I go down this road, my struggle is in
trying to balance being authentic versus keeping the peace when
it comes to talking with family and friends, because most
of them don't know that I have essentially lost my faith,
and I know that if I were to have those
conversations with a lot of them, it would cause a
lot of hurt. And there are you know, there are situations, Okay,
you know, parents want to have a prayer before dinner.
Probably not a big deal, right, But there are other
situations where I feel like I've become really fake. And
so I'm just very curious. As you've gone through your journey,
what has been and is your approach to balancing being
your authentic self versus trying to keep the peace with
people who still have a very strong faith.
Speaker 2: A couple of things come to mind. First, of all,
I used to say I lost my faith. I phrased
it that way, and I just heard you phrase it,
and there's nothing wrong with it except that it might
subliminally be saying that we lost something that we needed.
And so I started changing and saying that, well, actually
I rejected a bad idea. You know, I realized it
was not true. So instead of saying I lost my faith,
meaning I hope I find it, instead I thought, well,
I realized that, you know, it doesn't work, and so
I moved on. Robert Ingersoll says, the more false we destroy,
the more room there will be for the true. So
it's important if something is not true that we're able
to sort of take that out and remove it to
create oxygen, you know, space for oxygen and the new ideas,
the better ideas can come in. The Second thing that
comes to mind is the difference between peace and an
absence of conflict. I remember times in my own family
and if they want to pray, if I'm in their space,
they want to pray and talk about Jesus and do
their thing whatever. I mean, it's their house, their rules.
I usually don't engage unless they engage me in some
way or they say something blatantly offensive, and I feel
like I need to stand up for a marginalized person
or group, you know, as a matter of principle. But
beyond that, whatever, it's your house, your rules. But if
they're coming after me or I feel like they are
not willing to accept me for who I am because
I don't toe the line and validate them and line
up with them, then I have to have a conversation.
What's the collateral damage going to look like? And is
it worth it to me? And I can't answer that
question for you. You know, are their kids in play?
And you know, will that mean that the kids don't
see the grandparents? And what about your spouse if you
have one, And what if your employer finds out and
he is a believer? Might you lose your job meaning
that you can't pay the mortgage so now you're homeless.
I mean, there's all these other things that only you
can really assess. I do think, though, that the goal
is authenticity. The people in your family, they're not walking
on eggshells trying to keep you comfortable. You're the one
walking on eggshells to keep them comfortable. And I think
the goal is to give ourselves, the respect, the self
respect to be able to apply the same rules to
us that they get to apply to themselves. Do you
worry about fallout, blowback, collateral damage.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I absolutely do, and I think in my own
situation it's not so much. I don't worry about blowback
in terms of being disowned or not having relationships or
losing a job. And I'm very fortunate in that regard.
I'm fortunate in that I actually have some wonderful relationationships
with family and friends. But in that regard too, it
makes the fear more so because I fear losing their
I don't know that respect is the right word, but
just the closeness of those relationships. You know, again, they
would never push me away from being around them or
from being a part of their lives, but that there
wouldn't be a closeness, or maybe it's a veneer of closeness.
Speaker 2: We're talking about distance, And I think it makes total sense.
What happens if they don't fully lean into me as
a friend anymore? What happens if they become guarded or
even distrustful, And you know, those types of conversations are
totally valid. The thing is is if you are authentic,
and I think there's a way to approach that you
don't walk in with it. There is no God t
shirt on Thanksgiving in front of family. I mean, that's
you and I both know that that's not the way
to go. But if you don't participate in religious rituals,
they notice that you're not going to the church anymore.
And maybe you aren't comfortable leading the prayer over the
mashed potatoes tomorrow or whatever. You say, you know what,
I think I'm good. I'd like someone else to handle
that today. And you are able to softly communicate that
your comfort zone is changing and you are on a
journey and you're asking some questions and you may have
some doubts, but you're working through it and you're still
a good person and those types of things. I think
that's a great way to approach it. If they still
lean away from you and that defense comes up and
they become distant, it's sad, it's tragic, but it's not
your fault. And I worry that you're maybe taking the
responsibility on you. Like if if your friends or family
became Buddhist tomorrow, or Hindu or even Muslim or whatever,
would you distance yourself from them. I wager you would
still be the same loving connection person you always were,
wouldn't you?
Speaker 8: I would, Which actually raises an interesting point, because you know,
as I consider that I am fortunate, very fortunate to
have some wonderful relationships and just truly good people in
my life, it may also be not giving them enough
credit to make a presumption that if I was authentic,
if I was honest, that they would pull away. Maybe
that's essentially downplaying their goodness, and I need to give
them the opportunity to show that they're not that person.
Speaker 2: Another layer to that is that you might become an
opportunity for their world to expand, because they would see
in someone that they already know in three dimensions, kind
of an evolution of thought, and they might become curious,
and it might humanize the whole thing. Whether you're secular,
you're on a journey, you're seeking, your agnostic, your spiritual, whatever,
you can call yourself nothing, I don't care. But if
they want you, it totally humanizes it, and it's very
difficult for them, I think, to put you in a box.
We love you, You're a great guy, You're still moral,
you still want to go out and make a better world.
You're awesome to hang with, and whether or not you
believe in my God or not doesn't seem I mean,
you're still the same you. You have expanded their worlds
in a lot of ways, and I think that's totally
valid and necessary in my own life. When I get
to know people and then afterward they find out I'm
a professional heathen, it blows their mind. As someone said
earlier in the show about being a better Christian, I
had a buddy of mine on the tennis team. He said,
you know, Seth, you're a better Christian than most of
the Christians I know, and he knows what I do.
But what he was trying to say is you're a
really good guy who does the right thing, and it
expanded his horizons. You never know what might happen in
your circle of influence when you do live authentically. But
I don't feel rushed, don't feel like a coward for
not doing it quickly. But just watch the people around
you and ask yourself, would they be sitting on their hands,
would they be tiptoeing on eggshells? And if they wouldn't, well,
why am I applying a different set of rules to me.
I don't know, does that make any sense? Does that
help it all?
Speaker 7: It does?
Speaker 8: Absolutely, this is great. I really appreciate your insights and
this helps me. It helps to talk it through and
I think gives me some good things to think about.
So thank you.
Speaker 2: Oh, thanks so much for calling. Much appreciated.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, have a good even accessing.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the answer, but I think
he said it right. We're talking it out to equals
friends who were saying, well, what if what about that?
Here's my opinion. That's how I'm approaching it. I'm not
a licensed counselor, but I've had a lot of these
conversations and I've certainly been through it myself. It's hard
in my own family. I'm I'm related to people I
don't relate to in so many ways, and I've had
to scratch the family itch with you. And when I
go out and speak on the road, I'm surrounded by
people who do love and respect me, and they lean
into me and they challenge me, and sometimes we disagree,
and those disagreements get heated and we're you know, having
those discussions about the world and whatnot. But there's never
disrespect there's never judgment. They don't diminish me. I don't
diminish them, you know. And man to have that, and
to deny yourself that by saying, well, I'm just gonna
be quiet, because man, they're going to flip out and
make my life hell and we sure don't want that. Well,
I understand it, but I also lament it a little bit,
and I think, you know, maybe you should just say it,
if you can, maybe just say who you are, what
you think, why you think it, what your values are.
Be you without apology, at the volume you choose, and
if other people don't like it, that's their problem, not yours.
That's all I got today, it's all I have time for.
I am so thankful for you and for your calls
and your input. Go give something to somebody today. There
are no hoarders in this audience. I'm sure orders of resources,
but I think maybe we have a little something extra
that we can do for someone else. So pay it
forward out there, and let's try to show these oligarchs,
the spoiled, rotten manchild billionaires, how human beings ought to
behave And until next time, be good. I'll see you.
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