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<v Speaker 1>Eight oh six, a fifty five KRCD Talks station. A

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<v Speaker 1>very happy Friday Eve to you, Hi, and please to

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<v Speaker 1>welcome to fifty five KRC Mornings. I'm a next guest

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<v Speaker 1>author Michael Walsh. He has written quite a few books,

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<v Speaker 1>Last Stand. You probably read quite a few of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Author of Last Stands, more than fifteen other novels and

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<v Speaker 1>nonfiction book, classical music critic for Time Magazine at one

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<v Speaker 1>point received the two thousand and four American Book Awards

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<v Speaker 1>Prize for Fiction for his gangster novel There's Another One

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<v Speaker 1>You Can Read and All the Saints. He wrote popular

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<v Speaker 1>columns from National Review, which he used under a pseudonym

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<v Speaker 1>to put into the book Rules for Radical Conservatives, There's

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<v Speaker 1>One for You, and his other books Devil's Pleasure and

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<v Speaker 1>The Fiery Angel are examples of the enemy heroes and

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<v Speaker 1>triumphs and struggles of Western civilization, which allows us to

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<v Speaker 1>pivot over to the book we're talking about today, his

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<v Speaker 1>new book, A Rage to Conquer Twelve Battles that change

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<v Speaker 1>the course of Western history. Michael Walsh, Welcome to the

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<v Speaker 1>Morning Show. It's a real pleasure to have you on today.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much. Brian So.

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<v Speaker 1>There are a lot more than twelve battles, and I

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<v Speaker 1>suppose a lot of them could have impacted Western history.

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<v Speaker 1>First off, what interested you in this topic? And then

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<v Speaker 1>how did you whittle all of the wars that have

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<v Speaker 1>been waged by man over the years down to the

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<v Speaker 1>twelve that you selected.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I've been very interested in military history my whole life.

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<v Speaker 2>I was born actually on the Marine Corps base in

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<v Speaker 2>Campellshire in North Carolina, and my father was a Marine

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<v Speaker 2>officer who fought in Korea and elsewhere. So that's part

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<v Speaker 2>of my upbringing. And as you mentioned, I read a

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<v Speaker 2>book called Last Dance four years ago which was quite successful,

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<v Speaker 2>and that examined why men fight when everything seems to

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<v Speaker 2>be lost, But they don't cut and round, they fight.

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<v Speaker 2>So this book is an outgrowth of that book, and

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to look at twelve battles and the commanders

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<v Speaker 2>who led them to talk about masculinity again and talk

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<v Speaker 2>about what it takes to be successful at what is,

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<v Speaker 2>unfortunately one of the most fundamental human endeavors there is,

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<v Speaker 2>which is warfare.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I want to approach is sort of in reverse order,

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<v Speaker 1>and we could start with the Trojan War and Achilles,

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<v Speaker 1>which I'm very interested in talking with you about. But

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<v Speaker 1>the last one, the most recent challenge, the Battle of

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<v Speaker 1>nine to eleven and how it was ultimately lost by

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<v Speaker 1>the United States. Would you put a little more flesh

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<v Speaker 1>on the bones of that conclusion. I think I get

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<v Speaker 1>your point, But that was just my attention gravitated toward that,

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<v Speaker 1>considering it wasn't, you know, a traditional form of warfare

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<v Speaker 1>unless you look at sort of maybe our invasion of.

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<v Speaker 2>Iraq. Well, that's turned out to the most controversial part

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<v Speaker 2>of the book. And I remember when an author writes

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<v Speaker 2>a book, he's finished the text about a year before

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<v Speaker 2>it comes out. So it's not like blogging or anything.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's you have to into this well in advance

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<v Speaker 2>and try to figure out what readers are going to

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<v Speaker 2>be interested in. But nine to eleven struck me as

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<v Speaker 2>an example of a commander President Bush who didn't understand

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<v Speaker 2>the rules of warfare and didn't have the stomach to

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<v Speaker 2>fight the battle that needed to be fought, unlike all

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<v Speaker 2>the other guys in the book, which include you mentioned Achilles,

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<v Speaker 2>who's you know, quasi fictional, but obviously it's based on

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<v Speaker 2>somebody real wayback. But Caesar and Constantine the Great and

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<v Speaker 2>General Patten and the other people I talked about, And

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<v Speaker 2>so as a result, we didn't really believe that war

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<v Speaker 2>was declared on us. And if you think we won

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<v Speaker 2>the Battle of nine to eleven, go to the airport

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<v Speaker 2>and see if they let right.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great point, you know, behind all this the

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<v Speaker 1>whole idea of warfare though, Michael, I'm a profound constitutionalist,

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<v Speaker 1>little l libertarian, am I. But we end up launching

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<v Speaker 1>missiles and dropping bombs and taking people out in foreign

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<v Speaker 1>lands that we against him. We have no declaration of war.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, with technology being pervasive, more and more

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<v Speaker 1>foreign actors and folks that we might not consider friendly

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<v Speaker 1>to us have that technology and could equally do the

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<v Speaker 1>same thing to us that we're doing to them. Congress

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<v Speaker 1>never declares war. Are you get an authorization? You used

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<v Speaker 1>a military force to deal with nine to eleven and

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<v Speaker 1>it ends up lasting twenty plus years to serve as

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<v Speaker 1>a justification for conflicts literally everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's disgraceful. It's part of the forever war mindset,

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<v Speaker 2>which is true of people at both parties, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>and if you don't think so, just look at one

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<v Speaker 2>of the Senators from South Carolina John love Child, who

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<v Speaker 2>never saw war he personally didn't want to fight in,

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<v Speaker 2>but didn't want somebody else to fight in. The fact

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<v Speaker 2>is that we got more declared on us, and we

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<v Speaker 2>simply refused to accept it. So this event happened, and

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<v Speaker 2>then we refused to address the issue. We went to

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<v Speaker 2>other countries which had little or nothing to do with it.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh cut to twenty some years later, and we even

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<v Speaker 2>immediately pull out of Afghanistan. It was a disgrace. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I said in the book.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think you're probably in good company with my

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<v Speaker 1>listening audience on those conclusions, sir. Now back to Achilles again.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the reasons I was drawn to that is

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<v Speaker 1>because there is a lot of fictional element associated with Achilles,

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<v Speaker 1>like the Achilles Heel story. But what was his importance?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it?

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<v Speaker 1>Ilium?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yeah, said Troy. Yeah. The Iliad, which is one

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<v Speaker 2>of the foundational great poem along with the Odyssey of

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<v Speaker 2>Western Culture, talks about something that we now know happened.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not sure to what a steate did, and Homer

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<v Speaker 2>comes down to us himself as a semi mystical figure,

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<v Speaker 2>but something happened there. But what's great about the Iliod

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<v Speaker 2>first fall to great great work of art, and secondly,

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<v Speaker 2>it does describe in graphic and gruesome detail how warfare

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<v Speaker 2>was conducted around roughly one thousand BC. Uh, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is the beginning of the West's first clash with the East.

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<v Speaker 2>So the obviously the Greeks were on the western side

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<v Speaker 2>of this divide and the Trojans uh Troy is now

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<v Speaker 2>and where western Turkey is Uh, they were the east.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is a theme that runs throughout Western history.

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<v Speaker 2>Alexander's fight, Alexander's fighting the Persians. Uh, there's this constant

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<v Speaker 2>battle within Rome against the Parthians, who are also sort

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<v Speaker 2>of quasi Persians, which is one of the threads of

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<v Speaker 2>the book. But you have to start with the very

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<v Speaker 2>first war story and that's.

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<v Speaker 1>It understood, and fast forward over to the Crusades, the

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<v Speaker 1>first crouquete Crusades.

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<v Speaker 2>Bohemond, Yes, yeah, no one has heard of Beaulamonte except

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<v Speaker 2>for the.

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<v Speaker 1>First time, sir. This is it man, I've just been

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<v Speaker 1>introduced to Bauhemont.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, he's an amazing figure and he is the

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<v Speaker 2>hero of this particular chapter because he won two critical

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<v Speaker 2>battles in the First Crusade, which was recalled by the

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<v Speaker 2>Pope in response to the Byzantine Emperor, the emperor of

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<v Speaker 2>the eastern part of the old Roman emperor Empire, to

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<v Speaker 2>liberate the holy sites of Christianity. So this was in

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<v Speaker 2>the very late eleventh century, and Beauma was a great,

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<v Speaker 2>big Norman. The Normans had just conquered England like thirty

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<v Speaker 2>years before, and many of the Normans joined the Crusade

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<v Speaker 2>and went to the Holy Land to fight. And Beaumont

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<v Speaker 2>himself was a Norman from southerns had conquered the lower

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<v Speaker 2>part of Italy and Sicily and ruled it for many,

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<v Speaker 2>many years. So Beaumont led his troops, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>a giant of a man. He was a tactical genius

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<v Speaker 2>and was able to stave off defeat in the very

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<v Speaker 2>first battle the Crusaders fought against the Turks, and he

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<v Speaker 2>was able to win and keep a whole the siege

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<v Speaker 2>of Antioch and caused that city which was crucial to

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<v Speaker 2>the path to Jerusalem, which he then took for himself.

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<v Speaker 2>And he kind of drops out of the crusading narrative.

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<v Speaker 2>But in two places he really stepped up and shows

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<v Speaker 2>the superiority of Western arms and also the size that

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<v Speaker 2>the Franks were much bigger than the Turks, and they

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<v Speaker 2>had a problem. The Turks were very mobile, kind of

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<v Speaker 2>like American Indians against the cowboys or the cavalry in

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<v Speaker 2>the American West that come in, shoot run away, come

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<v Speaker 2>in and shoot run away. And the crusaders were frustrated

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<v Speaker 2>they could never get their hands on them. Well, Bowman

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<v Speaker 2>finally did and fend it off. This ambush. They could

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<v Speaker 2>have ended the crusade at a little place called Dora

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<v Speaker 2>Lam and then regrouped and they marched Bellvoid Antioch and

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<v Speaker 2>in a brilliant siege took Antioch against vastly, vastly superior numbers.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, in terms of the crusades, you said, the Pope

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<v Speaker 1>issued this, you know, request, and everybody needs to go

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<v Speaker 1>there to help out. And I understand this was was

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<v Speaker 1>it largely viewed by people as a legitimate, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>calling from God, like that this was a necessary religious

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<v Speaker 1>thing to do, because you know, over the years, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of speculation that well, now there's there's a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of Europeans that wanted to go plunder and look

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<v Speaker 1>for treasure as opposed to liberate the country.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well there's an answer for that, which is but

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<v Speaker 2>the first crusade was successful, most of them went home.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't stay. Himself was a Lackland who took part

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<v Speaker 2>of the turf that was conquered, and so did the others,

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<v Speaker 2>But most of them went home. And a point I

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<v Speaker 2>make over and over again in the book is that

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<v Speaker 2>almost all these wars have some religious component, and from

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<v Speaker 2>the earliest time, success in war was contributed to your God,

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<v Speaker 2>and failure meant that you had not lived up to

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<v Speaker 2>the demands of your God. You hadn't prayed hard enough,

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<v Speaker 2>sacrificed hard enough, you had you lost because of insufficient fabelity.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a constant theme throughout Western history. It's very

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<v Speaker 2>very interesting and it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, if you'd believe in a supreme power and

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<v Speaker 1>you're beholden to them, and you actually have a belief

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<v Speaker 1>system that involves you know, God and acts of God,

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<v Speaker 1>then yeah, you're going to step up to the plate

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<v Speaker 1>because basically your soul is contingent upon it where you're

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<v Speaker 1>going to end up in the afterlife.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, Well, you also got a complete remission of

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<v Speaker 2>sins if you went on the cru that was part

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<v Speaker 2>of the deal. And also what's interesting is the Church

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<v Speaker 2>guaranteed your property because the Church was the only power,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the Roman Empire having fallen five hundred years earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>six hundred years earlier. Uh, and you were immune from lawsuits.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was there was a bunch of upside. A

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<v Speaker 2>lot of them died on the route trip France and

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<v Speaker 2>what's now Germany, uh, all the way to the east,

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<v Speaker 2>to the eastern edge of the Mediterranean. But there were

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<v Speaker 2>some some bennies, shall we say, uh with it, But

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<v Speaker 2>I would say it was mostly fueled by religious ardor.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was true with the Muslim side too. They

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<v Speaker 2>believed in the prophet. They were they were undefeated up

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<v Speaker 2>to that point. They had never encountered any opposition that

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<v Speaker 2>stood up. They rolled through the remnants of the Roman Empire,

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<v Speaker 2>they rolled over Persia, conquered Iran, Islami sized Iran. They

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<v Speaker 2>were they were used to success. And the first time

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<v Speaker 2>they came up against the Franks and got walked and

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<v Speaker 2>they were it taught them something to and and this war,

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<v Speaker 2>now that particular war has been going on for a

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<v Speaker 2>thousand plus years, that's the Israel Gaza conflict. That's where

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<v Speaker 2>that starts.

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<v Speaker 1>It's amazing that that has been raging for that long.

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<v Speaker 1>And you did bring up the travel. I was going

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you about that in terms of the the

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<v Speaker 1>the crusades, that that distance in the time it would

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<v Speaker 1>take to get from point A to point B to

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<v Speaker 1>fight and then come back home. I'm just I suppose

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<v Speaker 1>that we're still under a feudal system then, correct.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, more or less, the kings of Europe had not

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<v Speaker 2>really quite emerged yet. So what that's called the Princess

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<v Speaker 2>Crusade because remember, there's no France, there is no Germany

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<v Speaker 2>right as we know it. So these were little princeings

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<v Speaker 2>of various little principalities around Europe that that got together

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<v Speaker 2>and organized an army, uh and they had specific leaders

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<v Speaker 2>and they accomplished that. It's an amazing logistical feat when

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<v Speaker 2>you stopped to think about it, that they came all

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<v Speaker 2>that way by land and sea, over a terrible terrain,

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<v Speaker 2>and lost a lot of their people, but they just

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<v Speaker 2>kept going. And there were times they didn't want to go,

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<v Speaker 2>but they felt they had to go, and so they

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<v Speaker 2>seized upon any sign that God was with them, most

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<v Speaker 2>famously at Antioch, where they were getting They were having

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<v Speaker 2>a very hard time with the giant Turkish army, and

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<v Speaker 2>then one of them discovered what he purported to be

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<v Speaker 2>the holy the tip of the Holy spear that had

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<v Speaker 2>pierced Christ's side at the time of the crucifixion, and

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<v Speaker 2>using this rusty piece of iron, they went into battle

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<v Speaker 2>holding it up and won. So naturally they thought God

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<v Speaker 2>was on their side. At the Crusader motto was DEUSLOVL

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<v Speaker 2>God wills it, and they would shout at us they

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<v Speaker 2>would move into battle. Fascinating stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Fascinating stuff, Michael Walsh, the name of the book, A

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<v Speaker 1>Rage to Conquer twelve battles that changed the course of

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<v Speaker 1>Western history. Michael, what we've done for you and for

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<v Speaker 1>my listeners problem primarily because they're going to want to

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<v Speaker 1>get a copy of the book. It's on my blog

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<v Speaker 1>page of fifty five carosee dot com. My listeners know

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<v Speaker 1>where to go and get a copy of the book.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a link to to where to buy it. And

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<v Speaker 1>it's well received on Amazon and if a fascinating range

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<v Speaker 1>of topics again from the Trojan War all the way

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<v Speaker 1>through nine to eleven. I appreciate you talking with my

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<v Speaker 1>listeners and me today Michael and spending some time here,

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<v Speaker 1>and thanks for writing the book and documenting this important history.