WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:03.839 This is the Startup Still Safe podcast. Thank you for 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:07.280 joining ken you as a favor like, subscribe on YouTube 3 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:09.560 or LinkedIn, and be sure to give us repeat them 4 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:13.400 Hope you enjoy this episode. Hello everyone, thanks for joining 5 00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:16.760 us on another brand new episode of Startups. They'll say, 6 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:20.320 we're joining you here after a few weeks break, And 7 00:00:20.399 --> 00:00:23.160 I'm delighted to bring to you this episode because this 8 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:26.120 is a pretty special and unique episode because we've not 9 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.679 had someone who's coming from this particular background as our 10 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:33.679 guest on this call. So I'm excited for all of 11 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:38.399 you to know our guest here. Jason Zimmerman is joining us. 12 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:40.320 And I got to know Jason a few weeks ago 13 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:43.799 through a mutual friend, and I've been super impressed at 14 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.920 what Jason's been up to. Don't worry about it, Jason. 15 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:55.119 Dogs are welcome. So Jason and his doggies on our 16 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:58.679 podcast today. And Jason, why didn't you kick us off 17 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:00.960 by telling us A oh, I should say? 18 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:04.439 I mean I know Jason as a few things. 19 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:06.640 I mean in my two or three weeks of knowing him. 20 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:09.959 Jason is an economist. That's what he studied when he 21 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:14.159 did his bachelor's program. He's a strategist. You know, he's 22 00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:18.079 focused on a lot of strategy and I mean, and 23 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.879 I must also say, given his new adventure, Jason will 24 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.680 also call himself a founder, right, so he is going 25 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:28.239 to tell us about Threefold Collective. I know three things 26 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.040 about Jason already, So how about that for a start, Jason, 27 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:34.159 So give us a little bit about a background and 28 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:35.239 we'll go from there. Yeah. 29 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.439 No, I appreciate you having me on first off, So 30 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:39.760 thank you. Yeah, the time that I got to know you, 31 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:44.239 I told you this before. I love your style. It's organic, 32 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:48.760 use your quick wit intelligence to sort of prompt up 33 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:50.640 the right questions. And so this is a real treat 34 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:54.079 for me, and so I genuinely appreciate you having me 35 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:56.200 as a guest, as well as my dog, who will 36 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.680 make an appearance at some point. So yeah, So, as 37 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:05.079 you said, I founded Threefold Collective, which is a brand 38 00:02:05.079 --> 00:02:10.680 new consulting organization that leverages my background in three specific areas. 39 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:16.280 As you mentioned economics, where I actually studied behavioral economics 40 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:19.039 and applied that to certain areas. And so there's the 41 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:22.000 research component in the research element that a lot of 42 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.599 my work is grounded. But at the same time I 43 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:27.159 used that, and I pushed it into sort of an 44 00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:32.599 applied understanding of strategy. And so I moved into consulting 45 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:36.080 and from there what we were looking at leveraging a 46 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:40.639 lot of the sort of psychological elements of the economics 47 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:46.199 background and applied it into organizational sociology and from there 48 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.240 and we'll get into this, I'm sure, but I applied 49 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.759 that directly inside of an organization of Fortune five hundred firm, 50 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.879 where I got to experiment with those ideas and really 51 00:02:55.879 --> 00:02:59.919 inform all the way back into how strategy, how recent 52 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:03.199 can approach a problem in a new way, in a 53 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.919 very holistic way. So I used that to found Threefold Collective. 54 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:10.680 And yeah, so far I've had some early successes and 55 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:12.000 I'm excited to share the journey with you. 56 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:12.400 Perfect. 57 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:15.479 So let's I think rolled back a few years, right, 58 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:20.520 I mean I've always maybe it's just me, economics was 59 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:25.280 always a boring subject, right, I mean, you know, not 60 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:27.800 a lot of people will say, you know what I 61 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.599 want to do economics, you know, and in your case, 62 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:33.280 behavioral economics. 63 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:35.960 I'm like, my goodness, I would never pick that. 64 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:41.080 So what what what made you even pick that as 65 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.719 something that you wanted to start your you know, college 66 00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:47.800 journey with and of course, I mean, you know, based off. 67 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:50.479 Of that, Yeah, you're going to build your career as well. 68 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.000 I mean, was there a pull of any sort that 69 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:55.319 kind of drew you to the adjacent. 70 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:58.120 Yeah, it's a great question. There is a pool behind there. 71 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.479 So if we go back to me as a child, right, 72 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.039 I was growing up with my mother and she was 73 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:09.439 a very creative type, and she, for whatever reason, could 74 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:11.520 not figure out how to balance a checkbook. That always 75 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:13.280 became finance has always became a little bit of a 76 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:15.919 struggle for her and for me. I looked at that 77 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:19.439 as a young child, and it only took me years 78 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.480 later to actually articulate what that was. But it was 79 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:26.199 simple math. It was simple addition and subtraction, and for 80 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.839 whatever reason she couldn't put those two things together. It 81 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:33.720 took me some time to realize that after injecting the 82 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:37.519 sort of psychological component of that. When you start to 83 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:39.639 think about how money plays a role in society and 84 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:42.439 you start to think about sort of the representation that 85 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:44.800 money can have in terms of status and even the 86 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:49.839 reflection of who you are, this very simple math injected 87 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:53.160 with psychology became this almost non Euclidean geometry. For her, 88 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:56.800 it became so complex that she couldn't necessarily interact and 89 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:00.199 engage with it. And so for me, money, I think 90 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:05.160 became a really fascinating topic very early on, which is economics, 91 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.120 or at least it can be market traits, and those 92 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:12.000 sort of things can really be part of what economics 93 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:15.319 is founded on. It's trade, it's bartering back and forth. 94 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.160 Right when I got out of school, you know, twenty 95 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:21.639 years ago now, behavioral economics coming out of University of 96 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:24.759 Chicago and Richard Taylor's work was just coming to the forefront. 97 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:30.279 And so when I came across that, it became sort 98 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.639 of the voice, the articulation that I was always looking 99 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:35.399 for to sort of understand at a very micro level 100 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:39.120 at this point what it was that was blocking my 101 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.040 mother and at this point a lot of people that 102 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:44.439 I saw around me when it came to money and 103 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:48.319 sort of its role not just in society, but in 104 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:49.959 terms of who we are as individuals. 105 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.759 Fearful, I mean, I always love the backstory to these things. 106 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.439 I mean, you know, yeah, more often than not, it 107 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:00.560 starts somewhere in our childhood, right right, And I mean 108 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.920 I've had twenty episodes so far. I mean, then you're 109 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.879 not the first person who said it started with my mother. 110 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.319 But I always love those stories where you know what, 111 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.839 I saw my mother doing this and it was so 112 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.759 great that she did it, or you know that triggered 113 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:17.959 me to do something like that. I mean, you know, 114 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.560 we all thank our mothers for what we are right now, 115 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:23.839 and I guess in your case it's no different. 116 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:25.839 It's exactly yeah, exactly. 117 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:31.240 Yeah, so so very cool. So, so you did your economics. 118 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:34.279 I mean I believe that's in the Indiana University. 119 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:39.399 Yeah, university to study economics. Yeah. I walked through degrees 120 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.680 in finance and accounting as well, so you can see 121 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.240 the quantitative underpinions of sort of where I began. 122 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.040 Yeah. So, and then I'm trying to build up to 123 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:49.920 what you're trying to do. 124 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:50.199 Row. 125 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:52.920 So you went on to do your MBA as well. 126 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:56.160 I mean, I'm assuming Kellogg's was a great experience. 127 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.120 Yeah, Northwestern calog it was a great experience. So there 128 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:01.480 is a little bit of of story between there. So, 129 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:05.839 coming out of undergrad I had intentions of going to 130 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:10.480 get my PhD in economics and really pursue the theoretical 131 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:14.279 component I always you know, even as a kid, I 132 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:18.560 just really loved thinking about a problem and that was 133 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.720 my intention. But at some point when I was applying 134 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:24.000 to PhD program, someone told me, They're like, you know, 135 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.000 you might have a better experience if you get a 136 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.480 little bit of real world experience underneath your belt. 137 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:30.800 That would help you. 138 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:34.000 Understand not just economics and the theory, but it would 139 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.360 help you understand the economics in the applied sense. And 140 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.319 so that's where I found myself. At a small research 141 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:46.000 consulting firm where we were I got very fortunate to 142 00:07:46.040 --> 00:07:48.480 get connected in with a researcher at the time who 143 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:53.639 was looking into the shift of our government clients from 144 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:57.680 defined benefit plans to define contribution plans. And what his 145 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.160 major thesis was is that benefit plans being driven by 146 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.360 professional money managers, and you know that shipped into defined 147 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:10.319 contribution plans run by individuals like my mother for instance, 148 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:15.120 had significantly lower outcomes. And what we were trying to 149 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:21.360 use or think about was how to apply economic incentives 150 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:27.600 mixed in with psychology to drive better outcomes. And so yeah, 151 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:32.559 that intervening period between getting my master's where I really 152 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:37.639 focus on organizational sociology in my MBA started out by 153 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.799 looking at the individual and its role, and that sort 154 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.000 of propelled me into consulting, where I worked at Mercer 155 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.759 on the mergers and acquisitions team, looking at both pre 156 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:53.000 and post acquisitions. And if you think about that thread 157 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:57.639 that kind of weaves through there, that thread relies on 158 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:00.840 the individual. If you take two organizations is coming together, 159 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:05.000 the success of that organization is going to be based 160 00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:08.639 off of whether those people can connect. Right, people are 161 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:11.879 a very sasset of any firm, and tapping into that 162 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:16.840 is what we were trying. Compatibility basically, precisely, precisely, yeah, yeah, 163 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.039 And so that's that thread of sort of how behavioral 164 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:22.879 economics can be extended not from the individual but more 165 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.399 to a macro view like an organization and a sociologist. 166 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.559 So fascinating, Jason. 167 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:31.799 I mean, I will admit I have absolutely no idea 168 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:34.720 into this field, but every time I speak to you, 169 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.519 I learn a lot, you know. I mean, of course 170 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.000 I understand the whole change management aspect of it, which 171 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:44.840 comes along with it, but I mean that's just a 172 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.720 miniscule aspect of what goes into this. Right to even 173 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:51.799 see to your point, is there a good fit if 174 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:55.240 it's an M and A. You know, if it's just 175 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.080 an a part of the M and A, is that 176 00:09:58.120 --> 00:09:59.840 even a good fit for them to come in Because 177 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:01.360 the end of the day, it's not. 178 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.039 About what you acquire or merge with. I mean, it's 179 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.080 about whether those people can work together. 180 00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:09.120 Right, Yeah, no, is this is what I said at 181 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:12.519 the start of this, Like your raw intelligence and curiosity 182 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:15.120 allow you to pick up on an idea and articulate 183 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:17.440 it in a beautiful way, and that's what you just did. 184 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:20.840 It really is. I like to think of it sort 185 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:24.279 of like any organization coming together or any change event 186 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:27.120 coming together, is how do you make it greater than 187 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:29.279 some of its parts. One of the things you hear 188 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:31.879 me say over and over again is I care about 189 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:34.519 one equation, and that's making one plus one equal three. 190 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:39.080 And that is you know, any change of any evolution, 191 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.200 whether it's us as individuals or an organization, that change 192 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:46.360 allows us to get to a better place. But there 193 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:50.600 is I believe a fundamental underlying conceit within that that 194 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:55.200 change is hard. Right, we don't know necessarily what we're 195 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:58.080 getting into, or maybe there's certain hurdles or barriers or 196 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.519 certain friction points that we have to get it through 197 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:06.320 and that is a purely psychological problem. And I do believe, 198 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:09.039 especially in the arena that I work in, you think 199 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.320 about it from an organizational standpoint, and now you're starting 200 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.679 to talk about how individuals interact with each other, and 201 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:19.240 so the sociological component of how that operates gets in 202 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:23.840 obviously economics. You're working within a capitalistic society and at 203 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:25.279 the end of the day, we are trying to make 204 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:29.960 money for our organization, and so it's it really is 205 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:35.919 this interdisciplinary approach to what I like to say is 206 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:43.399 just to accelerate that change, to make that change less frustrating, 207 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:45.919 to make that change, you know, less full of friction, 208 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:49.480 to allow people to sort of regain clarity and control 209 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:52.440 as they move into that new change. And by doing that, 210 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.960 I think you can benefit both the employees of an organization. 211 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:57.919 You can benefit yourself as an individual, but you can 212 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:00.679 also benefit the goals of the organization. 213 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:04.799 Well, let's move on in a little bit in your journey, right, 214 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:07.320 So you did your MBA. You obviously you told me 215 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:11.000 about the real world experience. I think whoever gave you 216 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:15.279 that advice was very wise. I mean, I wish everybody 217 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:19.039 does that right, because I mean, especially before doing an MBA, 218 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:21.919 I think the real world experience really helps you connect 219 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:24.159 to a lot of the things that they teach you 220 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:24.919 in the NBA. 221 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:27.600 I found that out myself. That's why I can speak 222 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:27.879 to that. 223 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.600 And then you mentioned earlier Jason, you you were in 224 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.879 a fortune one hundred, fortune five hundred company for a while. 225 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:39.320 You did a bunch of roles. There a lot of 226 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.080 that to do with economics. You also did a lot 227 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.360 of strategy right in terms of you know what the 228 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:48.679 company should be doing or the different departments. 229 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.159 How did that experience? 230 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:53.720 Tell us a little bit about that experience and how 231 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:56.799 that has helped you to get to where. 232 00:12:56.600 --> 00:12:59.279 You are right now. Yeah. 233 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.559 The one thing that maybe think about sort of the 234 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:04.720 shape this part of the story is there's research out 235 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:08.639 there by John Cotter coming out of Harvard, and a 236 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:11.039 lot of people listening to this may know this work, 237 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:14.519 but it's John Cotter's similar work that says seventy percent 238 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:17.679 of strategies fail and when you look at the eight 239 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:21.559 reasons that he came up with, they fail at implementation, 240 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:29.480 summarized by me as employee resistance, by certain psychological factors 241 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:33.600 that individuals that companies struggle with when it comes to execution, 242 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:38.799 and so for me, because theory was always my end game, 243 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.399 because I just wanted to develop sort of the next 244 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:46.320 horizon of thinking, especially within behavioral economics, I shifted into 245 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.360 strategy thinking that was the next level down. And while 246 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.879 I was there, I brought this quote this research to 247 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:55.799 one of my global directors and I said, how do 248 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:59.440 we know that our strategy isn't part of that seventy percent? 249 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:04.799 And paraphrasing a very long conversation, I was basically told, 250 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:08.600 why do we care? We've already been paid, And that 251 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:12.759 propelled me to understand and think about that at a 252 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:17.720 deeper level. If I could understand how execution works, then 253 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:22.000 I could make better strategy, which that better strategy would 254 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.480 then go into a better theory. And so, having spent 255 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:32.360 six seven years in this research in theoretical and strategic place, 256 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.039 I had an opportunity to move in with this financial 257 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:41.279 services firm and they allowed me to really begin to 258 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.000 think about how to execute these things. I worked inside 259 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:48.919 the executive office for most of my time there, and 260 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:53.159 what I was doing is taking the strategy that that 261 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:56.679 executive office was coming up with and connecting it back 262 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:00.320 into the organization, and so I was directly close using 263 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:05.120 that gap that John Cotter identified, that seventy percent gap. 264 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.840 And so I spent thirteen years inside the organization doing this, 265 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.360 and I think had a lot of success doing it. 266 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.799 You know, I there are some failures there, which of 267 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.720 course we all learn from our failures, but by continuing 268 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:21.559 to learn and evolve from that, I ended up getting 269 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.279 to a place, given my research background, where I would 270 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:29.039 actually be much closer to a not a seventy percent 271 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:31.879 failure rate, but much closer to a thirty or forty 272 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.440 percent failure rate. So I would really be successful maybe 273 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:38.639 sixty to seventy percent of the time. And that is 274 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:43.840 not exactly reassuring, But when you think about the complexity 275 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:49.480 of a fifteen thousand percent organization and moving a firm 276 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.320 through that change, you know, the thirty to forty percent 277 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:59.200 failure rate is astronomical. It's it's really a very pusial number. 278 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:02.600 That yeah, I think I attribute a lot to sort 279 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.600 of my experimentation and learning back in theory and research, 280 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:08.000 but also just obviously the people surrounded with me, and 281 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.440 you know, the organization itself to really allow that experimentation 282 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:13.240 to take shape. 283 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:13.559 Yeah. 284 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:18.360 So I'm glad you said successes and failures because that 285 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:20.879 is going to be my next question, and I'm going 286 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:23.639 to make it a two part question. Right, So obviously, 287 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:27.519 I mean, like anything else, you have some wins and losses. 288 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.120 You know, you might come up with a certain strategy. 289 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.000 You said, you know that's seventy percent, I mean the 290 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:35.120 thirty percent all that good stuffs. 291 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:36.440 And to your point, you. 292 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:39.399 Know, if you can't make that one plus one equal 293 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.679 to three, I mean, you know, at least in your words, 294 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.240 I mean, it's it's a failure, you know. So you 295 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:48.120 also mentioned research, I mean, and I believe that's a 296 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.399 big part of you know, the success as well, if 297 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.159 you I mean, I've known cases where people just go 298 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:58.600 by gutfield versus research, which is such a bad. 299 00:16:58.440 --> 00:16:59.440 Thing to do. Yeah. 300 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.200 So I mean, have you done any sort of correlation Jason, 301 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:06.920 to see, oh my research was wrong or I studied 302 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.079 the wrong inputs in this case are the wrong parameters? 303 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.720 Have you seen any sort of correlation between research and 304 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:20.519 actual success of whatever program you went through or initiative 305 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:21.039 you went through. 306 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.039 Yeah, I mean it's always a complex answer, right, the 307 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:30.319 answer is yes and no. So as a a researcher, 308 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.279 I want to have this in a lab where I 309 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.000 can control all the variables and say this is exactly 310 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:40.799 what's pointing to it. And unfortunately that research, not only 311 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.440 through myself or even in the industry right now, is 312 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:47.160 still very nascent. It's still growing, and it's just not there. 313 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.480 I am engaged with a few consulting firms that I 314 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:53.440 hope to announce pretty soon where we are actually going 315 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.680 to try to run those controlled experiments in a much 316 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.240 greater way and hopefully produce some white paper so that 317 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:04.200 we can identify those So from the traditional research background, 318 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.920 it's just that's not there yet. But from a practiced 319 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:16.160 researcher who understands correlation, causation and the scientific method, I've 320 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:20.079 done my best to really try to isolate a single 321 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.839 variable and make that change. And by understanding that one 322 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.440 variable within a larger system, I can start to get 323 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:31.960 a more intuitive or experienced or even anecdotal evidence that says, yeah, 324 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.119 this is what is driving that. And so I do 325 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:39.920 have a bunch of that that I was able to 326 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:43.920 explore with and sort of understand at a deeper level. 327 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.400 And a lot of those cases, including the early success 328 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:51.359 of threefold collective is on our website for people to explore, 329 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:53.880 and so a lot of that comes down to just 330 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:58.640 looking at sort of communication patterns and how individuals communicate 331 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.119 and how silos may be for and what interjections you 332 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:08.799 can play in order to drive that communication forward in 333 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:12.200 order to close that communication silo. Right At the same time, 334 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:16.640 some of the greater success that we've had is thinking 335 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.519 about and learning about the adoption curve and what it 336 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:24.440 is that allows people to embrace change as opposed to 337 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.559 reject change or to resist change. A lot of those 338 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:29.960 things come down to more of the psychological factors that 339 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.799 are heavily researched and we can point back to in 340 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:38.799 terms of just loss of clarity, loss of control, and 341 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.759 just the general nature of influence that we can tap into. 342 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.920 And so there are some interesting tools and techniques that 343 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:49.279 allow us to measure and quantify how an organization might look, 344 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:55.519 and by doing that, we're able to retest those measures 345 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.960 and see how these interventions can sort of drive a 346 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:01.200 certain outcome that we're looking to have. So yeah, we 347 00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:04.200 we we've definitely approached this as scientifically as we can. 348 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:10.839 But yeah, yeah, I mean again, you know, frameworks, I 349 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:15.279 love frameworks because at least they put some discipline in 350 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.880 your thought process, you know, I mean, some of them work, 351 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.480 some of them don't work, but at least there's some 352 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:23.000 sort of organization to it. 353 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.319 And to your point, I mean, you know, based on 354 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:26.039 what you said, I. 355 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:28.319 Mean, that is the way to go, right, I mean, 356 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:31.440 and even even with Threefold, maybe that's a good segue 357 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:35.880 for us to get in the research strategize and execution 358 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:40.880 of that is super important. So why did we jump 359 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:42.119 into your pet project then? 360 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:43.440 Jason? What? What? 361 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.720 What made you move on from what seems to be 362 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.160 like a pretty exciting role at the Fortune five hundred 363 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:53.119 company to do your own thing? I mean, what what 364 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:54.319 was the trigger? 365 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:55.000 Yeah? 366 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:59.720 So Threefold Collective exactly as you said, it's a whole 367 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:05.279 stick strategy consulting firm in which we focus on organizational transformation. 368 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:07.640 We focus on bringing a company from point A to 369 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.920 point B. And our skill set, I think our trait 370 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:16.480 is really focused on some of the tools within sociological research, 371 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:19.960 things like social network analysis that will allow us to 372 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:24.519 quantify an organization and sort of their fingerprint, if you will, 373 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.960 the informal network behind the formal network, in order to 374 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:34.440 accelerate change, and as I mentioned earlier, by accelerating change, 375 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:36.240 there a certain benefits that both the employee and the 376 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:42.240 organization will reap from accelerating through that change. So in 377 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.960 my time at this Fortune five hundred firm, I was 378 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.640 fortunate enough to stand up three different organizations to guide 379 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:54.079 this organization to set up these divisions and drive that 380 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:58.000 change from the ground up. So there was one failure, 381 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.119 as I mentioned that we stood it up been it 382 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:03.880 survived for about twelve to eighteen months, but it actually 383 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:06.319 came out just before the COVID nineteen pandemic, and so 384 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:09.319 it didn't have enough time to really take route. But 385 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:11.759 we did learn from those things, and so the next 386 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:16.039 two iterations of this we were able to get better, smarter, 387 00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.640 be more thoughtful about how we went through that, and 388 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.200 by applying those lessons on this third launch, we were 389 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:25.599 actually working with one of the big bulge bracket consulting firms, 390 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:29.000 and they told us that by going through this change, 391 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:33.119 which affected fifteen thousand people across the organization, it would 392 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.319 take anywhere from five to ten years, which anybody who's 393 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.839 worked with the consulting firm knows they're going to be 394 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:42.720 more on the optimistic side of those timelines, But having 395 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.039 worked in those firms myself, I said, hey, listen, we 396 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:50.920 need your expertise. That knowledge sharing of what other organizations 397 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.200 have done and sort of the friction points that they've 398 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.680 come up with is important. We also sort of need 399 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.240 the traditional change management techniques that these firms are are 400 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.920 really known for. But let's interject this social network analysis. 401 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.920