WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.839 With Laurent's Segal end from London and Gerard read from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:13.080 This is redefining energy today. On redefining energy, you were 3 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.879 going to talk about cowors, not Star Wars. 4 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:22.440 Cowores during that title. Yeah, it's really about what's happening 5 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:28.679 in the car industry with electrification, autonomy, who's winning, who's losing. 6 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:31.320 But first of all, from my partner, A. 7 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.520 B Loco Energy is Europe's premier leaser of ten foot 8 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:39.600 container mobile batteries built in Europe with COTL best LFP cells. 9 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:45.479 A Bloco Energy serves fourteen European countries, including France, Germany 10 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:48.759 and the UK. A Bloco's batteries can be leased for 11 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:52.000 any duration between six weeks and six years, and they 12 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:55.840 are monitored by the Dutch award winning platform school a 13 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:59.960 Blocko Energy. Make your life easier, make your business more flexible. 14 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.000 Back to the show. So we received a year ago 15 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:08.000 Michael Dunn, and the portrait we did was pretty spooky, 16 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.599 but now it's the apocalyptic because there are so many 17 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.840 things that have happened the past twelve months. I'm not 18 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:20.120 even talking about Trump Iron crisis. This is accelerating trends 19 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:22.799 that we've seen for quite some time, but we need 20 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.040 someone to put clarite in what's going on. 21 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:27.439 For me, when I look at the industry, it's the 22 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:31.040 speed of change, which is the thing that's hard to grasp. First, 23 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:33.319 you've got to move towards autonomous cars. As I say, 24 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:36.239 I drove away More before Christmas and I played with 25 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:39.319 the way more. Just mind boggling. That's number one and 26 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:42.359 number two for me. It's just a leap forward from 27 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:44.719 a technological point of view that we're seeing with these 28 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:49.319 Chinese cars, particularly EVS. That does a two standout point 29 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:51.040 for me over the last twelve months. 30 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:55.400 Yeah, let's bring Michael on the show. Michael, welcome back 31 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:55.920 to the show. 32 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:57.840 Great to be with you guys again. 33 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.719 Great to have you in. Michael. Maybe just kick off. 34 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.280 I mean, we had a conversation a year ago in 35 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:06.480 and around the state of the odd more industry globally. 36 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.479 Let me tell us a little bit what's changed. I'm 37 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.360 not excited, you know, As you know, twenty twenty. 38 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:16.840 Six depends so much on geographies. Here in the United States, 39 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.680 we've had a complete reversal on evs. They were creeping 40 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:24.400 up into double digits, now they're back into single digits. 41 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.560 They're out of favor. The incentives to build and sell 42 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.120 EV's have gone away. So if you're living in Kansas, 43 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:34.199 the United States rights just in Michigan, EV's are an 44 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:39.039 afterthought that whatever didn't want them, government wanted us to 45 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.080 buy them. We don't like EV's, forget evs. That seems 46 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:43.840 to be the sentiment on the ground in the United 47 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:47.319 States here in May twenty twenty six. Then you go 48 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:51.199 to China, and it's a completely different story. If we 49 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.520 pull the lens back, evs as a share of total 50 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:59.199 global production, sales have just exploded in the last five years, 51 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:02.719 going from about three million in twenty twenty to more 52 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:06.960 than twenty million last year. So whatever people's opinions might 53 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.520 be about the future direction of evs, the numbers don't lie, 54 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:13.840 going from three to twenty million, so now now accounting 55 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:16.759 for more than one in four new car sales globally. 56 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.000 China is a leader, Europe coming out strong, But then 57 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:27.319 we see also big penetration levels in unlikely places like Thailand, Indonesia. 58 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:30.960 I was recently in Mexico where the infrastructure isn't great 59 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:33.520 for EV's, but you're seeing EV's poor in their phv's 60 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:38.240 poor in there. So one big trend evs are happening. 61 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:42.360 The other big trend is the explosive number of Chinese 62 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.759 cars being exported globally and put a number to it. 63 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.120 Twenty twenty it was one million cars a year. This 64 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:53.080 year will be ten. We've never seen such a transformation 65 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:55.360 in such a short period of time as we've seen 66 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:58.120 with EV's and with Chinese going global. Those are the 67 00:03:58.120 --> 00:03:59.080 two big shocks. 68 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.879 Two analyze a bit in numbers. There are two numbers 69 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:07.039 who really shocked me. The first one was at the 70 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:09.479 end of two twenty five is the amount of write 71 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:14.479 offs that the main USUEM passed on EV's and probably 72 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:19.040 fifty billion dollars. So that's one. And the second thing 73 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:23.879 to counterbalance is the recent Beijing Auto Show with like, 74 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:29.120 I don't know, fifty football fields full of okay, so 75 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:30.879 the bad and the good please. 76 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:34.839 Here in the United States again four GM. Stilantis went 77 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:38.759 quote unquote all in on EV's right around twenty twenty one. 78 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:41.399 If you remember, Joe Biden had an EV summit there 79 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.560 We're gonna be the world. Later in EV's Mary Barra 80 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:49.879 promising EV's or our future, Jim Farley the lightning taking 81 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:53.000 their crown jewel, the F one fifty pickup truck, making 82 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:58.160 an electric co the lightning super optimism around EV's here 83 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:02.480 in the United States. Bam, that's gone, poof, gone vanished. 84 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:05.439 So the automakers look around and go, oh, no more 85 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:09.879 ev incentives. The American customer never really wanted evs. We're 86 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.519 just going to write these down. And so how to 87 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:17.759 think about that? I see Detroit increasingly as an industry 88 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:22.680 that serves North America full stop with large SUVs and 89 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:26.879 pickup trucks powered by castleine engines full stop. That's their business. 90 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:31.319 They're not competitive in markets outside of the United States, 91 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.240 and so they'll take this right down and say, guess what, 92 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:38.680 Our profits are even higher this year because we're building 93 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:42.600 highly profitable vehicles for our consumers here in the United States. Okay, 94 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.839 that's happening in this isolated world called America. 95 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:51.120 In a way, the America is becoming the new Cuba. 96 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:54.800 They're nicer than the cars you get in Cuba. But 97 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:58.439 the idea is that there's still there. It's like we're 98 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:03.480 living in the past. Ignorance is bliss. Yeah, this is great. 99 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:08.000 We still have our big trucks in SUVs. Life is good. 100 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:09.040 Why change? 101 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:12.199 Meanwhile, the rest of the world is changing and we're 102 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:16.240 completely oblivious to it here. We just don't know about it, 103 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:20.759 don't care what no isn't that? No, so's That's the 104 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:23.480 sentiment in the United States. Now. California, where I live 105 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.360 is different teslas all over the place here in San Diego, 106 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:32.040 but Michigan, Kansas, North Carolina, it's all gastling. So yes, Cuba. 107 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:36.879 Hopefully it's not our future, but that's the status right now. 108 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:39.360 And then we go across the ocean. As you said, 109 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:43.879 Beijing Auto Show wild. When I walk through there is exhausting. 110 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:49.439 There's people everywhere, noise, cars, brands, most of which, as 111 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:51.600 my friend said, I can't even pronounce the brand, let 112 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:55.839 alone recognize, like how do you pronounce Saomi, X Punk 113 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:59.439 and these other ones. And they're going wild with electrification. 114 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:04.199 It's just wild, always innovating and improving on their range 115 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:08.839 of the evs, the capabilities, the efficiency of the batteries, 116 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.040 the number of products, the price points, everything from fifty 117 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:15.879 five hundred dollars to you wanted two hundred and twenty 118 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:19.759 one thousand dollars supercar. We have that too. Sadly, as 119 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:23.399 an American, I think, well, God, China's looking like America 120 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.600 in the nineteen fifties, where it was all about innovation 121 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.360 and creativity and the locus of action. The center of 122 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.399 the auto industry today is China full stop. 123 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:37.279 Can I ask a little bit about let's talk about 124 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.240 Japan and Europe. Give me your view on the manufacturers 125 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:42.160 there and how you see them in the future. 126 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:47.319 When I ask Chinese automakers who they respect and admire 127 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.680 in fear, they say, oh, that's easy. There's just two 128 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.800 companies left that we worry about. Who are they? Is 129 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:59.000 it Tesla Toyota. Everyone else they see as like marsupials 130 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:02.639 as the word is, I know, open savannah, like where 131 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.959 it's is gonna roll over those guys, eat them up 132 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.800 and spin them out. And so if we look at Japan, 133 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.920 let's take Japan. Toyota continues to hold its own because 134 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:17.680 they deliver quality and great service and reliability, and they 135 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:22.240 have the nice hybrids. But it's just solid for customers globally. 136 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:26.079 So Toyotas are. But Honda, guys, Honda I grew up 137 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:28.920 in the where the Civic and the Accord phenomenal, the 138 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:33.200 engine Honda's under enormous pressure they'll record their first loss 139 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.559 since World War Two this year. Then Honda's the next 140 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:40.360 strongest after Toyota. After that it gets very shaky. Nissan's 141 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:44.759 and Mitsubishis and Mastas are barely hanging on. I think 142 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:48.240 that market cap of Moss is like three billion dollars. 143 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:53.200 It's hardly hanging around. So Japan, outside of Toyota is 144 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:57.519 under enormous pressure and they don't have answers. Europe, you 145 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:01.039 guys are there so forever it's been like, yeah, the 146 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.519 Italians and the French, you know, there could be pressure 147 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.799 in the future with Pougeot and Citroen and Fiat and Maserati. 148 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:15.720 They're vulnerable. But there was an understanding that the Germans 149 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:21.200 would always be strong, invincible, and they were having a 150 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:24.720 hell of a great time in China making records, sales 151 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:30.080 and profits. That's all vanishing and suddenly the German shares 152 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:34.000 in China are collapsing and the profits are going away, 153 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:37.039 while at the same time the Chinese are coming in 154 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:41.360 double barreled into Europe with exports, with plans to build 155 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:46.240 plants there. I see Europe as in a super crisis 156 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.360 right now. I could see the European industry just becoming Chinese. 157 00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:54.000 Michael, just on that point there my view, looking at it, 158 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.759 I think the one that's in the most jeopardy is Volkswagen, 159 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.279 and they have to probably go to radical and I 160 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:02.240 suppose that would be the kickoff of it, because we 161 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:06.039 haven't really seen serious restructuring in the industry. 162 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:10.039 Yet, No, we haven't. We've heard talks about it. Remember 163 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:12.720 Volkswagen said at one point about a year and a 164 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.440 half ago, they said, we're looking at potentially laying off 165 00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:18.679 tens of thousands of employees by twenty thirty. And then 166 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:20.879 there was discussions with the unions and they said, oh, 167 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:23.279 we'll delay that. We'll only close a couple of plants, 168 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:27.200 but will minimize the layoffs. Volkswagen, just as you say, 169 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:30.799 had tremendous growth in profits coming out of China for 170 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:35.120 so many years, for decades, and that's evaporated, so their 171 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:38.039 sales are down by more than thirty percent of their 172 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:42.320 profits there going to nothing. Volkswagen would be the bell weather. 173 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:46.759 If Volkswagen goes, what's holding the fort in Europe. In 174 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.480 the meantime, you have, of course two Chinese automakers, Beijing 175 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:55.679 Auto and Jili being the largest shareholders in Mercedes. You 176 00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:00.600 have Vovol already, of course owned by Jili. What's next? 177 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.960 Yeah, you talk about Gili, And it's interesting because the 178 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.240 view and a few months ago was that BYD in 179 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:10.879 China was the king of the game, but now it 180 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:14.840 seemed that Jili has kind of outsmarted them or is 181 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:17.399 it a good perception Gili? 182 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:20.919 We can never underestimate this guy, Li Shufu who founded Gili. 183 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:24.519 He's the entrepreneur's entrepreneur. A couple of years ago, when 184 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.720 BYD started to have explosive growth, Wang trump Fu called 185 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.320 an all hands reading. He's the chairman of BYD, and 186 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:34.399 he said, guys, we have about a two year window. 187 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:38.039 After that, Sai C, Gili and Chang'an are going to 188 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:41.320 come after us hard. And that's exactly what we've seen 189 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:44.799 play out. Chile's the best selling car last year in 190 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.879 China is called the Senior and from Gil is priced 191 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:51.559 at ninety nine hundred dollars. So they went right at 192 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.840 BYD in terms of we'll go at your pricing and 193 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.759 we'll match it or better it. And then Gile also 194 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:01.200 offers you want gasoline, you want hybrid, you want plug 195 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:04.159 in hybrid, you want evs. We have the whole gamut, 196 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:08.159 whereas BID is only PHGV and EV in a way, 197 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:12.080 they're limiting themselves at home. And they've been the target 198 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.879 for Sai, C, Changa and gi L for the last 199 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:17.519 year and a half. And it's amazing to see how 200 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.799 strong BID was and then as you say, eight months 201 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:23.960 in a row down sales in China now and if 202 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.120 it weren't for exports, they'd be in a lot of 203 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:27.720 trouble actually. 204 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.600 And of course we have the crisis in the Middle 205 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:34.200 East or at one hundreds rar Baril, so I guess 206 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:39.320 this especially in Europe where we are is accelerating the 207 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:44.440 push for evs. And there was a very interesting statistics 208 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:47.440 which was noways interesting in the sense that it's the 209 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.919 most sectry fund market. So for the first time the 210 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:54.720 EV charging network made money in Norway, which is not 211 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:59.200 really the case elsewhere. You see the fact that Cassoline 212 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:01.919 has become very and save an accideration of evs. 213 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:06.519 No question that's happening globally in Europe and elsewhere. One 214 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:09.519 of the interesting things historically if we look back at 215 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.960 how EV's took off take to date twenty twenty, and 216 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:15.000 we look at what Europe was thinking. If you remember 217 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:19.279 there's a Green Deal where climate Europe said climate is 218 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:23.320 number one, Europe is number two, and national interests are 219 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.519 number three. Our goal is to reach these really super 220 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:31.200 ambitious climate targets to save the world. Quote unquote. China 221 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:34.639 is looking at the same reality and saying, oh, wealthy 222 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.840 Europe wants to save the world, how can we benefit? 223 00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:40.879 And they may have talked about we want to help 224 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:44.000 with climate, but what they're really thinking is we want 225 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.440 to enhance our own power and wealth by providing the 226 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:51.879 solutions to Europe's goals. And here we are Europe saying 227 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.360 climate targets evs and then the Chinese ready to supply those, 228 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:58.600 and then layer on top of that the oil price 229 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:02.639 going up in look and say, well, boils now through 230 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.159 the roof, so let's go EV's in the Chinese. 231 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:08.679 Towl Mike, could I just turn a little bit to innovation? 232 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.759 And I just want to say that I had a 233 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:14.919 very interesting experience a few weeks ago, which was to 234 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:20.080 drive a Chinese Neo and go to the battery swapping experience. 235 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:22.720 And it wasn't just a battery, it was just a 236 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:27.000 whole car. I just thought this thing is just unbelievable. 237 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:30.720 It is it is, It's arguably neo and tell me, 238 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:35.480 both build phenomenal products and it's stunning. So tell me 239 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.919 more about what you did. Which neo was it and 240 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:38.919 where did you drive it? 241 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.799 And I was on the road. It was in the 242 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:43.240 Netherlands on the way for Germany. And what you've got 243 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.480 is battery swapping stations along the way. What was interesting 244 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:49.320 you pull in to do the battery swapping and it 245 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:51.600 parks for you and it does everything for you within 246 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:53.440 like a minute and a half. But it was also 247 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:56.720 for me it was just the experience of driving the car. Sorry, 248 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:58.519 I was a passenge in the car. What was interesting 249 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.360 for me though, was the car is basically autonomous as well. 250 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.159 That's the other thing that was interesting for me. Everything 251 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.600 about the car in terms of the comfort the field. 252 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:10.399 I was really like, wow, this is. 253 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.399 Did you feel like it was equivalent to a Mercedes 254 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.120 or BMW and or Audi and ride quality? 255 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.000 And I did. I actually have a BMW electric car 256 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.679 and I felt it was really it was the closest 257 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:24.720 thing I've got on BMW. That's what I would say. 258 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:28.519 Yeah, the executives I know who work at Mercedes and BMW. 259 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:34.399 They say Neo is very good car, very impressive both 260 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:38.240 in driving and the electronics. So when you went to 261 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.879 this swapping station, was that integrated into your center stack screen? 262 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:45.200 Like how do we find where it's ye or all 263 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.759 of us? So you're saying, and my batteries, low bang, 264 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:52.480 I hit the button here on the navigation battery swap. 265 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:55.720 How did you pay for the swap? Do you have 266 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.159 to pay you or is that also integrated into that. 267 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.000 It's also integrated everything is, so you have different choices. 268 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.360 You can buy the car with the battery in other words, 269 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.679 it's your battery and you don't change it. Or you 270 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.320 can have the battery where you can swampush by the 271 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:12.360 way and you can charge it normally as you would 272 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.639 as well, or either. 273 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.440 Way, either way, just like wow, okay, well. 274 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:24.399 Michael, you introduce autonomous I can pronounce that. Sorry, not 275 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:29.559 a native autonomous autonomous autonomous car. So a lot of 276 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.480 podcasts also has been done in autonomous. So it seems 277 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:38.360 that Tesla now finally good, is up together. There's way 278 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.720 more a lot of things in China as well, So 279 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:44.639 how do you see that old autonomous landscape? 280 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.639 Seems like a two country race United States and China. 281 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:51.320 And on the US side you have way Motor, so 282 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.639 you said Zooks is a smaller player interesting to watch, 283 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:57.759 and then you have some specialists in trucking like Wabi, 284 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:01.600 but it's Tesla Way More really the two leaders in 285 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:05.720 the US, and then on the Chinese side there's Baidu, 286 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:10.440 We Ride, Pony, Momenta are the big players. The way 287 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.799 to think about it is that the Americans are still 288 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.759 more advanced in terms of innovation and overall sophistication of 289 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.759 the technology when it comes to autonomy. The Chinese, as 290 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.839 is their strength is they'll copy paste and iterate. So 291 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.599 in the past they copy pasted and people go, well, 292 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.000 they're always going to copy paste, but they're copy pasting, 293 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:34.759 making a little bit better and then going to market 294 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.240 very quickly, and so who is going to win out. 295 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.240 Part of that we're seeing in places like London and 296 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.000 the Middle East now where both Baidu and Way More 297 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.400 are getting in there and working with partners, and we 298 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.480 may see how it's going to be decided in Europe 299 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.839 and the Middle East and other places in the world. 300 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.759 Whereas the US and China block each other, No Baidu 301 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:01.400 in the US, no Way MOO and the two governments 302 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.359 just don't want the other players in their respective markets. 303 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:06.720 So as a result of this, we may see the 304 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:10.039 competition play out more aggressively in places like Europe between 305 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:11.279 the two systems. 306 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.079 What about all the technologies out there that you're looking 307 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:16.319 at there, I mean, if you look the last twelve months, 308 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:19.400 what's the big sort of technology forward you've seeing? 309 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:23.960 It seems like autonomy is first, second and third These days. 310 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:29.440 There are iterations around software updates and over there updates 311 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:33.759 and batteries and being more efficient and different chemistries. But 312 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.519 the most exciting thing, the ultimate goal is who can 313 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:42.279 crack autonomy? And so you see Elon saying redefining his 314 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:46.359 company as an AI robotics company. He's discontinued production of 315 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:49.720 the S and the X, leaving just the three and 316 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.519 the Y and the cyber truck, and he's all like, 317 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:59.160 our company is all about the cyber caps. So globally 318 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:01.839 and within the industry, I think the most exciting innovations 319 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:06.319 right now are all around autonomy and their applications. 320 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.559 Another exciting development for me is going to be trucks 321 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.240 especial as usually as in China. But I think the 322 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:21.559 truck industry who doesn't have an emotional connection with the car, 323 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:25.480 and that was designed. It's really what's the cost poculometer 324 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.960 or mile period and the advancements in batteries and make 325 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.240 it that. Now the economics looks pretty good and we 326 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:37.079 start to see somebody else. My personal opinion is that 327 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:40.400 in the next eighteen months, each trucking is really going 328 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:41.880 to explode. Do you see the. 329 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:46.079 Same Definitely, We've seen it happen in China already, where 330 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:49.599 electric share of new truck sales, even the big heavy 331 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.799 trucks is above twenty five percent. Now maybe thirty percent. 332 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.119 Let's come out of nowhere. And for the longest time 333 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.119 the debate was well with heavy trucks, batteries don't make 334 00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.400 sense because long distance and heavy. But the Chinese have 335 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:05.240 found a way to make it work. As an American, 336 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.640 what's I'm coming to terms with is that the trends 337 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:12.799 are being set by China. China is the new California, 338 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:16.759 where if it's happening in China and it's happening at scale, 339 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:20.440 it's likely that it's going to happen elsewhere in the world. Eventually. 340 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.319 That's like a one in one hundred years change. That 341 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.440 the world has to get accustomed to. And so if 342 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.880 the Chinese are using electrics for trucks with success NX 343 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.640 scale and at low cost, then we have to wonder 344 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.720 why wouldn't it happen everywhere else in the world now? 345 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.880 And Europe would be a great candidate for it because 346 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.839 of the cost of the drivers and you have autonomous 347 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:48.640 trucks powered by electric vehicles. Oil diesel is through the roof. Wow, 348 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.319 it looks like a solution just looking for a place 349 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:54.400 to apply itself. You guys are in Europe, so I'm 350 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:57.640 always a little bit from the outside looking in. It 351 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:02.160 looks like China's number one prior globally right now is Europe? 352 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:05.720 How do we concrete? Europe looks so delicious. It's such 353 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.279 a big market, there's so much money to be made, 354 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:13.200 and the industry itself is not at its peak of power. 355 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.680 Let's go capitalize on it. 356 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:17.920 There's only one thing about here's me coming out from 357 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.960 European side. At least you've got Tesla and Weimo. What 358 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:22.359 do we have. 359 00:21:24.039 --> 00:21:27.960 Why haven't we seen a Tesla or a Weymo materialized 360 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:32.440 in Europe? It isn't for lack of smart people, resources, money, 361 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:36.359 it's all there, but somehow we haven't seen it. 362 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:38.960 I think we're stuck in the old world of the 363 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.759 combustion engine, and it's just the culture of these businesses 364 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.400 have they've been so dominant for so long and they've 365 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.559 lost the ability to innovation. That's it. 366 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:52.279 They're maintaining rather than innovating. 367 00:21:53.319 --> 00:22:00.319 Innovation has come from very aggressive and hungry entrepreneurs, come 368 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.960 from FALL or from GM or you know the type 369 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.039 of guys. So when you are sitting on a mud 370 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.920 ad which has proven lucretive for decades and white. 371 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:14.200 Change, let me follow it because it's very interesting to me. 372 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.599 So you guys are in Europe. Where would something like 373 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.839 that come from? Now, let's be optimistic, like there's young people, 374 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:25.279 smart people who look at Tesla and go, damn, I 375 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.480 want to build one of those. What country do you 376 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:28.440 think that's going to come out? 377 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:32.359 Well, listen, the only sort of new brand ev company 378 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.079 that we have, as Rymack, it can come out of Croatia. 379 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:37.640 So if you ask me where does it come from? 380 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:42.200 The innovation, the entrepreneurship, et cetera comes out of Eastern Europe. 381 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.200 But there's an issue. Probably the capital is not there 382 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.920 for that that's the issue. But we definitely see massive 383 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.720 innovation across the Eastern Europe, and not just in this 384 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:53.319 and in lots of different sectors. 385 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.200 We see that, but they need capital. 386 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.960 They need capital, and Europe has a lot of capital, 387 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.119 but it doesn't go into businesses. It goes in a 388 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.759 property and it goes into government bonds. And say we 389 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:04.799 have no California. 390 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.920 That's what I would just say, No Silicon Valley, No 391 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:12.039 Silicon Valley some days. Coming from the Midwestern United States, 392 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.119 it wasn't until later when I went to California I 393 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:17.480 saw Silicon Valley up front. If I'm being honest with myself, 394 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:20.720 it wouldn't occur to me that you could have such 395 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:25.160 a culture that welcomes risk and willing to take risks 396 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.000 and is entrepreneurial and the chances of failure are pretty high. 397 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:32.920 That wasn't the education I got in the Midwest America. 398 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.279 So it is unusual and maybe hard to duplicate, but 399 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.920 that's what seems to be necessary for Europe to have 400 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:43.440 a renaissance, is just go back to that model of risk. Yeah, 401 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:47.519