WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.200 So Trillion is an OTC desk that provides a lot 2 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:06.519 of liquidity between stable coins and FIAC currencies across Latin America. 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:09.199 And what we've been doing from Borderali as standpoint is 4 00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:12.160 when you're building a payments network, there's two things that 5 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:14.640 matter to me. The most one is what's the breadth 6 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:17.239 of that network, and the second is what's the depth 7 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:19.399 of that network? So how much liquidity do we have 8 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.359 in all these different markets, and then how broad is 9 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:24.120 the coverage that we have across the world. 10 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.280 This episode is brought to you by Uphold, which is 11 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:34.240 a great crypto platform that I've been using since twenty eighteen. 12 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.880 Uphold makes it easy to buy, sell, trade cryptocurrencies like 13 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:40.719 bitcoin and all coins. In fact, they have three hundred 14 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:44.280 plus cryptocurrencies on their platform and a carry precious metals 15 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.359 such as gold and silver and you can swap between 16 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:49.960 these assets, so it's really unique. Uphold is safe and reliable. 17 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:52.320 I've never had any issues with them, and they are 18 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:56.200 one hundred percent reserved. 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Hey folks, I'm down here at Station three 30 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.560 NYC in New York's Financial District and joining me is 31 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:44.519 Kevin Litinity, who is the CEO of Borderless Xyz. Kevin, 32 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:46.200 I'm so happy we're doing this in person. 33 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:48.560 Thanks for having me on. It's always more exciting to 34 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.239 do things irl, you know, I'm just so tired of 35 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.959 zoom rectangles through screens. I'm excited that I'm meeting you 36 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.200 face to face, have a real genuine conversation. That's that's 37 00:01:59.239 --> 00:01:59.799 what the industry is. 38 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:03.079 And it's a perfect timing because Kevin the genius act 39 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:07.640 pass right. It's stable coin, party time, innovation and much more. 40 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:09.479 You know, we had an interview where we went through 41 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.159 all the great things Borderless is doing, and I think 42 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.000 this is a very good time for us to be 43 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:16.080 chatting posts Genius Acting. 44 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:18.759 Look pass USDC is going to two dollars. I'm calling it. Okay, 45 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:19.360 it's happening. 46 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.319 You know some people, I remember the memes are starting 47 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.960 about that someone posted I invested in USDT and it 48 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:30.080 didn't go up yet. That's well no, So Kevin, before 49 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:32.159 we get into all things genius act and the future 50 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:34.879 is stable coin payments and much more, give the folks 51 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:36.240 a quick overview of borderless. 52 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.960 So with Borderless, what we've tried to do is we've 53 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.039 tried to completely commoditize connectivity. And what I mean by 54 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:45.240 that is when you look at the liquidity that exists 55 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:48.919 between stable coins and local fiat currencies, that liquidity is 56 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:52.080 highly fragmented around the world. So you have companies which 57 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:55.840 we all know is kind of the big brands, right Bridge, BVNK, Bitso, 58 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:59.199 Yellow Car, these kind of leading orchestrators and different geographies. 59 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.639 And then you have a ton, especially in this market, 60 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.439 of startups that are getting funded that are also providing 61 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.919 liquidity in a smaller subset of regions, and the reason 62 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.319 this is so fragmented is still the regulatory landscape. So 63 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.000 blockchains are global. We all know that tokens are global, 64 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:16.080 we all know that, But regulatory frameworks are still super fragmented. 65 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:18.360 So just because you have a regulatory license in Brazil 66 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:20.599 doesn't mean that suddenly you can operate in the EU. 67 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:25.560 So you've got all these not small but fragmented local 68 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:29.520 liquidity providers. And in the traditional payment space, we've solved 69 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.520 this with networks, the Visa network, the MasterCard, the Swift network. 70 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:37.400 Nobody is licensed everywhere, even JP Morgan Chase doesn't have 71 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.400 regulatory licenses in one hundred and ninety five different countries. 72 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:44.680 And imagine a world in which every bank needs to 73 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:48.400 do an API integration into every single other bank around 74 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.240 the world in order to transact with them. Completely unscalable 75 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:54.479 and completely solved by standards. I connect to Swift. Swift 76 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.280 is connected to all these other banks. Therefore we can 77 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:01.039 transact together. That doesn't exist in stable points. If Bridge 78 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:03.840 wants to transact with yellow Card, Bridge needs to go 79 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.520 into a partnership with and an integration into Yellow Card. 80 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:09.599 So what Borderalist has done is try to build that 81 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.319 connectivity where you connect once into borderless and borderless is 82 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:17.360 connected into the borderless network which is now fifteen and growing, 83 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:22.079 regulated counterparties and all these different jurisdictions across the US, EU, 84 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:27.120 Latin Africa, Southeast Asia. So you can connect one time 85 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:29.759 and then enable all these different counterparties that you can 86 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.439 transact with to create these cross border products and global 87 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:33.240 payments products. 88 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:36.040 So you're like a hub connecting all these bangs and 89 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.199 payment service companies via stable coins. 90 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:41.720 That's exactly what we do. So pretend that you're a 91 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:46.040 payments company or an orchestrator and you're licensed in Columbia 92 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.040 and Brazil. You're like, great, I want to create a 93 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:50.800 corridor into South Africa. I want to create a corridor 94 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:53.279 into China. I want to create a corridor into the EU. 95 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:55.959 I need to now have access to a network of 96 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:01.000 regulated counterparties in South Africa, in China, in the EU 97 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:03.680 to do that other leg of that transaction. So if 98 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:05.759 I connect to the border as network, now I have 99 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:08.439 all these counter parties already built in that I can 100 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:11.199 choose from, and I'm basically the way we think about 101 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:13.800 it is, in this case, you're the originator and then 102 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:16.800 these counterparties are the beneficiaries, and now you can do 103 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:20.399 and then to end either on ramp off ramp stable 104 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:23.959 cooin sandwich, treasury management, whatever that looks like. Right, So 105 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.920 we don't work on the liquidity or the regulatory licenses 106 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.680 in any country. We work on this connectivity, messaging and 107 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.879 communications later where we say, great, there's already one hundred 108 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:35.920 companies out there that are licensed in all these different 109 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.600 countries providing the liquidity. How do we connect them all 110 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:40.519 in one platform that makes it really easy for people 111 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:40.839 to use. 112 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.600 So the real world use case, just putting myself in 113 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.519 this situation, if I wanted to send a friend in 114 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.879 Hong Kong some money and I want to send him USDC, 115 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:52.680 you could help connect that even if he's not using 116 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.560 the same bank or same payment provider that I am. 117 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.360 So let's say I send it through JP Morgan and 118 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:02.040 he has I don't know, with some bank in the 119 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:07.160 Asian markets. You essentially you're helping to build the interoperability 120 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:09.240 in the bridge to have that go through seamlessly. 121 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.439 Basically. So let me give you a great customer example. 122 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.000 There's a new kind of stable cooin focus in THEO 123 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:19.519 Bank that launched recently called Polar, and Polar is all 124 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:22.519 about and I love this example because it's a niche market, 125 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.000 which is like use cases, I don't think of that. 126 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.319 I love they're specifically targeting like cruise ship workers because 127 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:32.120 cruise ship workers have massive payments problems in the sense 128 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:36.319 that they're getting paid from us EU kind of other countries. 129 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:38.879 And the vast majority of why cruise ship workers go 130 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:40.800 into that industry, like why would you work on a 131 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:43.399 cruise ship right You're gone from home months at a time. 132 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:46.480 That's a giant sacrifice, mostly to send money back home. 133 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:50.000 So they then need to get payroll processing is straightforward. 134 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:51.639 But when I get paid to the cruise ship worker, 135 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:53.519 how do I then send that money back to the Philippines, 136 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.079 back to China, back to all those things. There's liquidity 137 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:57.680 providers in each of those regions, and the way that 138 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.439 Polar's doing it is by connecting to Borderless and then 139 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:03.160 they're using the borderless network of liquidity providers all around 140 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:04.759 the world to say great, it doesn't matter if you 141 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.439 live in country ABCD or f you can off ramp 142 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.959 your USDC balance in the Polar app to your family's 143 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.399 FIAT bank account. Basically, anywhere in the world because they're 144 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:17.839 connected to borderless, and borderless then connects them to these 145 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:19.920 regulated liquidity providers all over the world. 146 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:25.600 Interesting and so essentially you're a new modern day Swift, 147 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:27.319 if you want to call it that. 148 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:29.079 I think the VCS hate when we use the Swift 149 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.879 analogy because Swift isn't a for profit, you know, giant business. 150 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:35.920 But that's effectively what we've done right in capital markets. 151 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:38.759 A lot of this is like an ECN is one 152 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:40.319 way to think about this, right, So you connect to 153 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:42.920 the ECN, the ECN is connected to a bunch of venues. 154 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.160 Because what you can imagine after connectivity is now we 155 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:48.319 work on optimization. Right, So there's five counterparties that are 156 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:52.800 providing liquidity between USDC and BRL in Brazil. They're all 157 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.160 offering it at different rates. So now you get into 158 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:57.800 some like best execution and things like that. Of great, 159 00:07:57.839 --> 00:07:59.959 if you have a bunch of providers on a network, 160 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.279 now I can start to run Algos on top of 161 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:05.279 this network, and I can say, hey, provider A is 162 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.160 at X, provider B is at Y, Provider C is 163 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:12.920 at Z right now this second, in real time, the 164 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:15.519 best FX rate is provider B do you want to 165 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.439 route the transaction through their liquidity right now? In this 166 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:21.680 second it's provider C let me route there. And those 167 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:24.079 are the things that if you connect directly to a 168 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:27.000 provider like a bitso as an example, you get bitso's 169 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:31.160 rate no matter what. If you connect to bitso through borderless, 170 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:33.720 you can also connect to three other people and now 171 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:36.240 they're almost bidding for the order flow and you're able 172 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:38.519 to route the transaction in real time to whoever has 173 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:41.759 the best FX versus just being stuck with one person's rate. 174 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:43.559 So there's all these cool things that you get to 175 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:45.399 start to build on top of the liquidity. 176 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:48.200 Oh sure, and that's great. I mean to have that option. 177 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:52.039 And are you supporting institutions mainly or is it retail 178 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:55.000 or the retails on the end of the respective. 179 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:57.159 It's often on the end. So our entire business is 180 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.559 B to B. We're an infrastructure company. So we provide 181 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:04.480 our platform and our network to originators that look like 182 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:09.879 you know, trust companies in the US, to orchestrators around 183 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.360 the world, and to some of the like FinTechs, the 184 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:17.559 neo banks, the PSPs, people like that, and then they 185 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.919 in turn serve both corporates that are looking at like 186 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.480 treasury management repatriation. You know, SpaceX does a lot with 187 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:27.519 stable coins to repatriate funds back into the US, and 188 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:30.759 then they also serve end users, right, So think creator economy, 189 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:35.720 neo banks, think consumer cross border remittance apps, things of 190 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.320 that nature. Those are kind of the application layer is 191 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:41.879 our customer, and then they're taking it to their user 192 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:43.000 and corporate customer base. 193 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:44.320 That makes sense. 194 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:46.240 So B to B two C B two B two B. 195 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:48.440 There's a lot of bs and twos in there, but 196 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:49.879 generally that's what works. 197 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:53.759 I read recently that you point or a trillion digital 198 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:57.039 joined to borderless XYZ network. Tell us about that. 199 00:09:57.200 --> 00:09:59.840 So trillion is an o TC desk that provides a 200 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:02.679 lot lot of liquidity between stable coins and FIAC currencies 201 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:05.519 across Latin America. And what we've been doing from border 202 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:08.639 as standpoint is when you're building a payments network, there's 203 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.080 two things that matter to me. The most one is 204 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:13.679 what's the breadth of that network and the second is 205 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:15.919 what's the depth of that network. So how much liquidity 206 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.679 do we have in all these different markets? And then 207 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:21.320 how broad is the coverage that we have across the world. Right, 208 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.320 can we support every single country on planet Earth today? 209 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:26.559 The answers no. I dream of a day in which 210 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:29.120 the answer is. The Borderless Network is literally in every 211 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:34.080 non sanctioned country in the world. And you know, Trillion 212 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:37.519 is part of our you know, big push on expansion 213 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.679 where we've been doing some transaction processing with their liquidity 214 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.440 for some corporates that are repatriating funds actually from Brazil 215 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.799 back to the US, very specifically with Trillion. And the 216 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:49.240 more and more we started to talk with the team, 217 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:51.519 the more they're like, hey, we don't want to just 218 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:53.000 kind of do these one off things, like we want 219 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.360 to actually join the Borderless Network and we want to 220 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:57.960 be one of the regulated counter parties that's on the network. 221 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:00.480 And you know, when there are people that need to 222 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:02.440 consume our liquidity, and our liquidity is are the best 223 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.960 possible price. We want to be able to fill those orders. 224 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:07.440 And when we want to consume liquidity that we don't 225 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:10.039 have because they are licensed in a subset of countries, right, 226 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:12.200 They're not licensed in one hundred and ninety five countries 227 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:14.039 around the world, we want to be able to consume 228 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:16.399 that liquidity for the network. So a lot of the 229 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:18.440 people that are joining the network are joining it as 230 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:21.480 both a beneficiary where they're filling transactions when they win 231 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:24.519 from a price standpoint, and then they're also originating transactions 232 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:26.399 when they need liquidity in areas they don't cover. 233 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:31.759 That makes sense. It's exciting. And there's a question I 234 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:32.879 want to ask you, but I want to get ahead 235 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:34.840 of myself because I'm been too excited about what's happening 236 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:36.600 right now. But you know what else is new? I 237 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.480 around border lists that you want to highlight, you know 238 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:42.679 that maybe you guys recently launch or whatever it may be. 239 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:46.039 Oh, just the growth has been really really fun, right, 240 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:48.159 It's we're talking about this before the cameras were rolling. 241 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:50.279 It's it's a good time to be in the stable 242 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.480 point business, right And we just had our our quarterly 243 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.679 board meeting last week and we were pulling up like 244 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:58.360 volume graphs and things like that. Q two volume was 245 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:03.720 quite literally ten x Q one volume. That's I've been in, 246 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:08.120 you know, the blockchain world professionally since twenty sixteen, which 247 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:10.200 is kind of scary at the same time as you 248 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.879 it's weird to think that's been like nine years and 249 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:16.759 we've seen a lot of cycles and a lot of growth, 250 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:22.039 but ten x in a quarter that's kind of insane. Yeah, 251 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:23.440 And I'll be honest, I don't know how much of 252 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:25.320 that is super sustainable right like I do think the 253 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.679 market is very frothy. There's a lot of hype right now. 254 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.240 There's a ton of stable coin use cases that I 255 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:32.399 would argue not only don't make sense, but we have 256 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:35.440 the data to refute that they don't work. That people 257 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:40.639 are still super excited about, so whatever. But that just 258 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:44.720 shows the demand right now is off the charts for 259 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:47.720 people that are whether they end up doing it sustainably 260 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:51.519 or not, are legitimately looking at and trying to understand 261 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.120 should they move part or all of their transaction flow 262 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.039 to the stable coins, which to them represents, you know, 263 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:03.279 instantly settle programmable money versus kind of the legacy structures 264 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:03.879 we've had before. 265 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.120 So would the Genius Act pass into law for those 266 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:09.559 who don't know, that's a stable coin legislation that President 267 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:13.799 Trump just signed into law last week. Are you seeing 268 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.879 if your phone ringing off the hook more demand coming in? 269 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:19.879 I think, you know, when we think about the borderless network. 270 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:22.200 We started the company about a year and a half ago, 271 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:26.120 and one of the questions that we get the most often. 272 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:29.639 Now since Circle launched their payments network called CPN, the 273 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.960 question is okay, well, what's the difference between borderless and CPN? 274 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:36.799 And when we started the company, there wasn't really such 275 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.240 a thing as a payments network, right, that didn't exist. 276 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:44.039 CPN didn't exist. This concept was completely new, and it 277 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.120 was really difficult for people to understand what we did. 278 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:48.759 They're like, wait, so are you a provider or are 279 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.519 you a blockchain or are you a stable coin? Like 280 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:55.000 we're none of those things. We're a payments network. And 281 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.960 people are like, what is that? Why do I need it? 282 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:01.120 Et cetera, et cetera. Now that's will come out with CPN. 283 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.840 That's massively validated the fact that a payments network should 284 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:07.639 exist as a category. Right, Circle is, you know, the 285 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.679 publicly traded giants of the stable coin space. That there 286 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:12.799 is the market cap giants of the stable coin space. 287 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:15.840 Circle is the publicly traded giant. So that to have 288 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.200 the biggest publicly traded company and stable coins create a 289 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:20.840 product that looks very similar to ours is massively validat 290 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:23.960 into the business model. And our super simple answer now 291 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.240 is well, we're a stable coin agnostic version of CPN. Right, 292 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:29.519 CPN has no incentives and I'm sure they will at 293 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:33.279 some point, very little incentive to promote competing stable coins 294 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.039 to USDC, euroc et cetera. And now that the Genius 295 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:40.120 Acts has been passed, there's so much more interest in 296 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.720 launching new stable coins. That is perfect for us because 297 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.120 we're the stable coin agnostic version. If the entire world 298 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:50.200 collapses to USDC, there is no need for borderless just UCPN. 299 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:55.399 That's it. If the entire world doesn't collapse onto one 300 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:57.600 stable coin, which we firmly believe it won't, and right 301 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:00.559 now we're in this expansionary environment on stable coop issuance 302 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:03.559 with the Genius Act. Then the network layer needs to 303 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:05.960 be credibly neutral. It can't be built by a stable 304 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.000 coin because that stable coin will always buy us its 305 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:10.399 own token. It can't be built by a layer one 306 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.960 blockchain because that blockchain will always buy us its own network. 307 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.960 It can't be built by a wallet provider because that 308 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.480 wallet provider will always buy us the assets in its 309 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:22.240 own wallets. Right, it can't be built by any of 310 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:25.600 these market participants and be credibly neutral. So the only 311 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:29.159 way to build a credibly neutral payments network is something 312 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:32.240 like Borderless, which is not a layer one, which is 313 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.080 not a token, which is not a wallet provider, which 314 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.200 is not you know, any of these things, and is 315 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:39.360 just quote unquote a payments network. 316 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:42.919 Yeah, that that absolutely makes sense to your point of 317 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:46.399 being agnostic. There's so many stable coins out there already 318 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.919 to market, and then we have news that banks are 319 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:50.519 going to launch your own. Oh yeah, Bank of America 320 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:55.039 is just I saw I think it was yesterday Western 321 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.440 Union CEO speaking about they want to integrate stable coins. 322 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.919 So with this legisy in place, almost anyone can launch 323 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:03.799 your own stable coin. We don't know which ones are 324 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:05.480 going to be successful, but there's going to be more 325 00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:06.039 than one. 326 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:07.799 Oh there's going to be a giant explosion. 327 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:08.080 Right. 328 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:12.159 So, the more that we've talked to institutions previously about 329 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:15.080 launching stable coins, the number one thing that's been holding 330 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.600 them back. It hasn't been technology, it hasn't been kind 331 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.840 of business case. It hasn't been executive sponsorship or interest 332 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:26.759 from the leadership teams. It's been regulatory uncertainty. And companies 333 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:30.799 like Boba have basically said, look, we are going to 334 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:33.559 launch a stable coin as soon as we have a 335 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:36.919 legal framework which our compliance and risk teams can be 336 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.759 comfortable with. And now with Genius, that's all starting to happen, 337 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:42.799 right and that I think is going to see a 338 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.080 giant explosion, and we can jump into what stable coins 339 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:46.440 will win in which ones well, when I'm happy to 340 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:48.519 put some theories out there, but I think we're gonna 341 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:50.440 see a giant explosion of stable coin issues. 342 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.080 And to your point of being an agnostic, you're also 343 00:16:53.200 --> 00:17:00.519 interoperable in many different blockchains exactly, multi multi geography, multi blockchain, 344 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:06.359 multi stable coin, multi infrastructure provider. So we have integrations 345 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.960 and partnerships with like fire Blocks, Utila Defense, working on 346 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:15.519 some others. We're looking at accounting and reconciliation platforms like 347 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.559 the bitwaves and tres Finances of the world. We're looking 348 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:24.240 at compliance vendor integrations like the sok here, some subs, personas, 349 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:25.160 et cetera. 350 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.240 Of the world. So that really when you think about 351 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:29.519 building a stable coin stack, at the end of the day, 352 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:32.400 we want Borderless to be that glue that holds it 353 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:34.880 all together. It's say, great, if I'm using borderless to 354 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:36.960 connect to all of this liquidity all over the world, 355 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:40.519 why am I not also using borderless, to connect to wallets, 356 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:43.400 to connect to compliance systems, to connect to accounting and 357 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:47.319 reconciliation systems, to connect to risk systems, et cetera, et cetera. Right, 358 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.079 connectivity is more than liquidity. Maybe that's a little bit 359 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:52.920 of a of a teaser, some alpha into what are 360 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.279 you know, three or five year roadmap looks like, But 361 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:56.519 that's kind of how we view the business. 362 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:01.319 Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. Expect everybody in their grandma 363 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:03.640 to launch a stable coin now, and is this market 364 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:06.039 going to get oversaturated and it had to be some 365 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:07.240 consolidation at some point. 366 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:09.680 I think everybody in their grandma will launch a stable coin. 367 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.039 I think the vast majority of those stable coins will fail. 368 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.400 There's three models that I think may do well, and 369 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:20.079 I think the model which will fail completely across the 370 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.559 board is this like third party, single issuer model. So 371 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.480 what Circle and Tether have done. That market is dead, 372 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.240 that opportunity no longer exists. It's owned by Circle, it's 373 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.960 owned by Tether. If you're a tech startup saying hey, 374 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:33.440 you know what, I'm just going to build a stable 375 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.119 coin and that's going to be my business, that's not 376 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:39.359 gonna work. The ones that I'm bullish on are one 377 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.440 people with distribution. So if you look at Circles as 378 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:44.319 one filing when they did their IPO, and you look 379 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:46.960 at how much they paid a coinbase and others for distribution, 380 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:50.839 anybody that has a built in distribution base can avoid 381 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.839 those costs, which is absolutely massive. So in that realm, 382 00:18:54.960 --> 00:19:01.240 I'm thinking traditional payments companies, so the Western Union, the 383 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.720 money Grams, et cetera of the world, who already have 384 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:06.680 all this distribution. Super simple for them to flip on 385 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.480 a stable coin, right, Well, simple is relative, but you 386 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:13.359 get my point. Oh, you know Paypals kind of started 387 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.640 doing this with PYUSD. They own a tremendous amount of 388 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:20.680 distribution themselves. Why give that to someone else. The corporates 389 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.720 that have a large entrenched customer base, so Amazon stable coin, 390 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.359 Walmart stable coin, Samsung stable coin, you know these sorts 391 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:32.200 of companies. I'm very bullish on those because they have 392 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.279 existing giant customer ecosystems that they can push those into. 393 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:41.839 And then I'm bullish on bank owned stable coins BOVA I. 394 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.279 You know, they've made some announcements. I would imagine JPM 395 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:47.640 they tokenic deposits. I would imagine like b and Y 396 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.599 and others are also looking at this. And I had 397 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:53.880 a conversation with someone who works at a very large 398 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:56.599 US institution maybe three or four months ago, and I 399 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.599 asked him because he's the head of the blockchain stuff there, 400 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.039 and I was like, why aren't you guys doing anything 401 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:04.920 with stable coins yet? It seems so obvious. And what 402 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:07.880 he said to me was basically, Kevin, when you operate 403 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.759 at the scale at which we operate, we think a 404 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:14.599 lot around counterparty risk. And our counterparty risk today when 405 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:16.599 we hold dollars is the FED in the US government 406 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.440 our counterparty risk when we hold USDC pre IPO is 407 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.160 this tiny fintech startup that's not even public yet called 408 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:28.000 Circle And granted now Circle as ipo'd there continued to 409 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:31.480 grow and you know, Jeremy's built up a phenomenal business, 410 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:34.359 and I wish all the best to Circle. I think 411 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:37.759 a lot of the giant when we think of enterprise, 412 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.240 like the actual enterprise end of enterprise is looking at 413 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.400 this and saying, Okay, my counterparty risk profile changes from 414 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.480 the FED in the US government to Circle. I don't 415 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.920 think so, but my counterparty risk profile changes to be 416 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.880 of a or to JPM. Great, we already bank at JPM. 417 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.839 We already have two hundred million dollars in corporate cash 418 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.599 sitting at JPM. Okay, we could take a JPM coin. Now, 419 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.119 the counterparty risk profile it changes from a regulatory standpoint 420 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.039 because you know, insurance things change and liability, but your 421 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:12.559 fundamental counterparty remains JPM or BOVA or Wells or you 422 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.319 know one of the top US money center banks that's 423 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:18.400 already managing your treasury that you already have comfort with, 424 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.759 versus switching your counterparty risk to someone completely new. So 425 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:23.319 I'm really bullish on that segment. 426 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:29.640 Yeah, and even the circles, right, the small companies now 427 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.480 they come in line because they're being audited and reviewed 428 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.039 because of this legislation. So even if you had some skepticism, 429 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.559 but Circle, this is a small startup. Okay, they got 430 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.960 distribution on coinbase, but it's not like you said, JP 431 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.839 Morgan or some of these big banks. But now they 432 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:50.400 have to validate that they have US treasuries backing their reserves, 433 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.839 the audits and much more. It just eliminates that friction. 434 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:56.720 It creates the consumer protections that I have been missing. And 435 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:58.799 I think one one kind of more framework that I 436 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:02.960 think is interesting is the partnership framework. So if you 437 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.279 think about I think USDG is leading the game here 438 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:10.000 what they've done with the consortium saying Okay, going at 439 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:12.799 it alone isn't going to work in the market anymore. Right, 440 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.359 That was the twenty sixteen to twenty eighteen play. Now 441 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:20.160 we need to create critical mass, and maybe we ourselves. 442 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:21.839 We're talking about you know, people that have large amount 443 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.519 of distribution Walmart, Amazon, et cetera, launching stable coins. Maybe 444 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:28.759 we're a smaller company that doesn't have that level of distribution, 445 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.119 but if we can pool that distribution with a bunch 446 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:34.240 of other companies. So you look at USDG and it's 447 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:38.240 Paxos plus Anchorage plus robin Hood plus world Pay plus 448 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.240 I think Visa. Now I wasn't sure if that was 449 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.119 a rumor or not. Maybe it was a rumor, but 450 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.599 putting together this consortium of companies behind a stable coin 451 00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:48.440 that I think is interesting. 452 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.279 Yeah. When I saw that, I was like, wait a minute, 453 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:54.240 this this is interesting because the big names that are involved, 454 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:58.400 and it's global, you know by the name what is it. 455 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:00.480 A global dollar now global dollar? 456 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:05.640 Yeah, And I saw Mike Novagrass's firms was also involved 457 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.640 and it's very interesting. So maybe we could see more 458 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.000 of these different types of consortiums create. 459 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:13.240 I think there's going to be a consortium play and 460 00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.119 I think the consortiums are going to be a winner 461 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.720 take most and today Global Dollar Network was kind of 462 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.559 the first to move right there, the first to create 463 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:22.319 this consortion model, and they should get the credit for 464 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:25.319 kind of creating this contortion model. You know, Circle tried 465 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:27.319 to do it with Center way back in the day 466 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.880 and then it just became coinbasins, but Global Dollar Networks 467 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:34.039 actually pulled it off. And I think we're going to 468 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:35.839 see quite a few of those enter the market. And 469 00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:38.680 whether it's USGG that wins or doesn't, I don't know. 470 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:41.799 But we're you know, we've had the privilege of being 471 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:43.519 pretty close to that team and we know some of 472 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.440 the way that they're thinking about this, and I'm super 473 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.279 bullish on the way that they're thinking about it. 474 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:52.359 Yeah, it's fascinating. It's it's a stable coin wars right state. 475 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:55.759 That is you need like some Star Wars soundtrack with 476 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:59.319 the scrolling credits and the stable coin wars, but that is, 477 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:01.920 that is what's happened. Look, the most profitable business on 478 00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:06.400 planet Earth by employee is a stable coin. And I 479 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:09.079 don't care if you're bullish or bearish on crypto. You 480 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:11.880 gotta like the fact that it's the most profitable company 481 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.559 on Earth by employee, Like in any cfo's office at 482 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.839 any company around the world. That's gonna raise the attention 483 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:20.319 and that's gonna get serious consideration. 484 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:23.640 What do you think happens to Tether? You know, given 485 00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:26.079 at it's King of the Hill, has the largest market share, 486 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.920 It's had some issues in the EU with the MICA regulations. 487 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.119 It sounds like they're gonna be okay to us. The 488 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.960 CEO said they're going to have a top four accounting firm, 489 00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.480 do the full audit and all that jazz. Do you 490 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.119 think they lose market share over time? 491 00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:43.240 So for the US, yes to the top four thing. 492 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:46.759 Trump also called out Paolo by name when he was 493 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:51.000 signing the Genius Act. So I don't know what happens 494 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.640 behind closed doors. Unfortunately I was not invited to be 495 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:54.079 in the room. 496 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.599 But lut Nick came out, I think at Dablos last 497 00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:01.319 year and said Cantor is backing Tether. We review their reserves. 498 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:03.839 They have the money, so that's maybe the fix. 499 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.680 I think that's the fix. And look, I think Tether 500 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:12.359 has gone through its fair share of struggles as it's grown, Right, 501 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:14.599 I've been very critical if Tether at points in the 502 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.319 past when I maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, didn't 503 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:19.400 really believe that they were fully reserved in the right 504 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:20.759 way that they should have been, and that was kind 505 00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:23.680 of a you know, a general market feeling. I think 506 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:26.039 if that has been the case, I think Tether of 507 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:30.920 today is very different from Tether of twenty eighteen. And 508 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:35.119 you know, I think what Circle is doing is they're 509 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:40.240 making a big push around regulated environments, so Mike and 510 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.920 the eu US things like that, where they've really tried 511 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:47.640 to position themselves as and I don't mean to call 512 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:52.000 Tether unsophisticated, they're not, but Circles really positioned themselves as 513 00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:57.119 the sophisticated stable coins right for institutions, for enterprises. This 514 00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.839 is super regulated, this is super you know everything. And 515 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:03.519 where Tether's done a phenomenal job is in organic growth. 516 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:08.359 Like I always think of Circle as the stable coin 517 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.000 in the Ivory Tower and of Tether as the stable 518 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:13.640 coin for the people. Right where they've gone into emerging 519 00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:18.319 markets where dollarization is super important. Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Mexico, 520 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:24.079 parts of Latam, parts of Africa, South Africa, Kenya, other 521 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:27.799 parts there. They've gone really big into Southeast Asia, Philippines 522 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:31.119 and Thailand and those and they're kind of that organic, 523 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:34.519 grassroots stable coin where if you are outside the US 524 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.119 and the EU and you ask someone about stable coins, 525 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:39.519 I don't know if it's it's more than nine out 526 00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:41.119 of ten. I don't know if it's ninety nine out 527 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:42.799 of one hundred, but it's more than ninety out of 528 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:47.440 one hundred. People go oh USDT or oh tether and 529 00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:51.680 they have this grassroots, real world adoption by consumers everywhere. 530 00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:57.599 And then tether's gone institutions, enterprises, Wall Street, et cetera, 531 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:01.039 et cetera, And ultimately, I want to think the people win. 532 00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:04.119 That's what I want to think, you know, That's that's 533 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.160 the feel good story that we tell ourselves. But the 534 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:09.480 stable coin wars are for sure heating up and will 535 00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:11.039 be interesting to see how this market changes. 536 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.519 To add to the tether thoughts that you shared, anecdotally, 537 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:18.039 the vendors I've worked at overseas, they don't ask for USDC, 538 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:20.400 they ask for tether all the time. They're like, no, 539 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.759 we want USDT. So you're a spot on on that. 540 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:25.400 Well, the liquidity is different, right. So one of the 541 00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:27.119 things that we can do on the Borders platform to 542 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.119 show ourselves a little bit, which I think is legitimately 543 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.839 kind of interesting, is we have all these real time 544 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:35.799 price feeds from all these different people providing stable coin 545 00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:37.599 liquidity all over the world, right, and these price feeds 546 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:39.119 are not public, So this is kind of like interesting 547 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:40.960 data that we sit on that a lot that not 548 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:43.519 a lot of other people see it, especially at this extent, 549 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.440 so across I think, you know, sixty seven countries now 550 00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:52.640 we're seeing real time liquidity feeds on price. And one 551 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:53.960 of the things that we can do is we can 552 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:55.920 look at it on a per token basis and I 553 00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.119 can tell you what the usd cfx rate is versus 554 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.000 the usdtfect rate, and that's a function of how deep 555 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.000 the liquidity is in those markets. And when you get 556 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:08.839 outside of the US and the EU, there's pretty significant 557 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:12.400 price differences between USDC rates and USDT rates because the 558 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:15.039 liquidity in USDT is so much deeper, the adoption is 559 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.400 so much greater that I think that's the uphill battle 560 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.559 for circle. It's like, yes, you know, if we put 561 00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.160 everything on a level playing field, both tokens are worth 562 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:25.839 a dollar, right, But that doesn't mean that both tokens 563 00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:27.759 are worth the same amount of ZARH. 564 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.000 That is interesting, and I can see how each other 565 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:34.400 has that first move advantage there and they put their 566 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.480 stake in the ground. But not so much institutions but retail. 567 00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:42.079 And because this technology obviously makes things a lot better 568 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:46.119 in moving money, settling instantly, lower fees, why would I 569 00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:49.640 even want to move over unless there's some great incentive. 570 00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:55.680 Interesting, when everyone's asking for USDT, there's going to be 571 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.079 a price difference. If you have USDC instead, you have 572 00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:00.720 the asset that people don't want. What is the price difference? 573 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.599 And we can actually quantify that in real time across 574 00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:03.519 sixty something countries. 575 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.759 Wow, So, Kevin, hard question. Are we hitting a one 576 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:12.160 trillion dollar market cap for stable coins by next year? Oh? 577 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:15.640 That is a hard question to answer. I'm gonna answer 578 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.000 a different question first, and then I promise I will 579 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.599 come back to the more speculative question I was talking to. 580 00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:26.240 I was on an NPR segment earlier last week, and 581 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:27.960 one of the things that I said that didn't make 582 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.559 it into the final edit, which I'm really mad about, 583 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:32.359 Which is what I'm saying it again, is I think 584 00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:34.599 that over the next five to ten years, the vast 585 00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:37.079 majority of commerce will operate on stable coin rails, and 586 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:41.279 I would bet almost anything on that fact being true. 587 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:44.880 I think that where we are sitting today is kind 588 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.000 of the you know, the the Internet in the nineties, 589 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:50.680 And if you went to somebody in the nineties and 590 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:54.559 you predicted glass rectangles sitting in all of our pockets, 591 00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:58.400 constantly connected with five G connections to all the world's information, 592 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:02.599 people would have thought that you were absolutely insane. But 593 00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:05.240 it wasn't one hundred years to get from the nineties 594 00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:07.440 to the twenty tents and now the twenty twenties. And 595 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:12.720 I think as people we are terrible at understanding exponential growth. 596 00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.519 We just assume that everything is linear. That's how our 597 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:21.799 brains are wired. But adoption is never linear. The pace increases, increases, increases, increases, increases, 598 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:23.720 and all of a sudden you realize three years ago 599 00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.880 this doesn't even exist. Right, Just for how long of 600 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.240 human history have humans been able to fly? It's not 601 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:32.240 that big of a part of human history. But now 602 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:35.680 we take going to the airport flying to Singapore for 603 00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:38.680 Token twenty forty nine as a completely granted thing that 604 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.359 the you know, moves all over the world about it. Yeah, so, 605 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:43.640 I you know, I think we'll hit some very interesting 606 00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:46.480 market gaps in the next twelve months. I actually think 607 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.559 we'll then see our retracing back from that. I think 608 00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:51.920 we are in a hype cycle, so I think we're 609 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:54.680 gonna see a ton of adoption. I'd love to see 610 00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:57.400 it hit those numbers, and then I think it's gonna 611 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.000 pull back for a few years. And then I think 612 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.559 we're going to see another option wave, and that next 613 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:04.319 adoption wave is going to make this look like child's play. 614 00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:07.039 You think in that's like twenty thirty, because you have 615 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:09.759 we just got the legislation. There needs to be R 616 00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:11.720 and D trial and error testing. 617 00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:15.160 Maybe the bear market wipes out some of the players 618 00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.880 who are now running your business well, but then you 619 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:20.880 know the ones who are building great tech and they 620 00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:22.400 come out of the bear market and they get the 621 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:23.680 big adoption by twenty thirty. 622 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:25.519 That's exactly what I think. I think we've got kind 623 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.920 of a yearish left on this market cycle, and then 624 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.799 we pull back and we go into a bear for 625 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:33.000 a few years, and that bear is going to be 626 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:36.279 the perfect time for R and D, for large corporate initiatives, 627 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:37.839 for a lot of large banks to be building. Right, 628 00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:40.880 the banks aren't going from legislation today to launch products 629 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.880 in twelve months. That's not the speed at which these 630 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:46.920 institutions move. They move at the speed of years. So 631 00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:48.519 that bear market's going to be a ton of building. 632 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:51.599 And then then twenty thirty ish bull run is going 633 00:31:51.640 --> 00:31:55.200 to come back, and that's going to be everybody at 634 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.200 an enterprise and institutional level getting into stables. It's not 635 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.039 just going to be the fintech startups. 636 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:03.640 Or you know, from an adoption standpoint. I'm curious about 637 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:05.839 your perspective on this because we talk about the demand 638 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.880 for USDT outside the United States, and people are familiar 639 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:11.519 with the brand. But are we gonna eventually get to 640 00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:14.440 a world where I, like, I don't think about my phone. 641 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:16.720 You know, I'm carrying all these apps, I'm connected to 642 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:19.200 the internet. I'm just gonna move money. I'm not thinking 643 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.480 this is a stable coin. Here's what I can do 644 00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:25.000 with it. But eventually, these big players getting in Western 645 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:28.279 Union and banks it's just going to move faster, cheaper fees, 646 00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:29.559 and I don't need to think about it. 647 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:32.960 Yeah, I'll flip the question back to you. What database 648 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.319 architecture does the chase app use? 649 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:35.440 I have no. 650 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:38.680 Idea and you don't care. Yeah, exact same thing. I 651 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:40.799 think in the next adoption wave that we see from 652 00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:43.240 a retail perspective, you may not even know it's a 653 00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:45.400 stable coin. To be completely honest with you, I think 654 00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:49.759 the word stable coin disappears from the lexicon. It's going 655 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.720 to be I'm sitting in an emerging markets country. I'm 656 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.160 pulling up my banking app, whether it's a traditional banking 657 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:57.319 app or an eobanking app through a fintech, Whether like 658 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.400 I pull up my bank and in my bank three 659 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.799 thousand dollars, whether those dollars are in tether, are in circle, 660 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.359 are in some bank issued stable coin, are actually a 661 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.559 deposit token, or some consortium stable coin. I'm not even 662 00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:12.519 gonna know as a consumer, nor am I gonna care. 663 00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:15.559 All I know is that I, in country X, am 664 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.799 able to hold a balance of three thousand dollars in 665 00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:20.559 USD and I'm able to do that because of stable coins. 666 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:25.599 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean we've seen the s curve 667 00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:28.519 adoption of technology and the perations. You don't eventually think 668 00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:30.559 about it, Like you said, like you don't think about 669 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:32.839 going on the internet, TCIP and all that, Right, we 670 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:33.920 don't think about those things. 671 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:39.200 I remember buying something on the internet for the first time, right, 672 00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:42.559 and like that was a big deal to buy something 673 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.359 on the internet. It was like, you're gonna get scammed. 674 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:49.359 You're never gonna get the package. It's gonna be terrible quality. 675 00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:51.359 They're gonna steal the credit card number and run up 676 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:54.759 a bunch of other charges. Like I vividly remember my 677 00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:01.079 first time making an Internet purchase. Now, not a thing, 678 00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:04.119 you know, it's the default method for how things are purchased. 679 00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:06.079 I would argue, I've never looked at the data, but 680 00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:08.920 I know in my own personal life probably ninety percent 681 00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:11.440 of the things that I buy I buy from the Internet. 682 00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:13.719 I don't go walk into a brick and mortar store. 683 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:17.599 It's not a thing anymore. Same thing stable coins today, scary, blockchain, scary, 684 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.480 big deal rug pulls, other things like that. Fast forward 685 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:22.320 ten years from now, it's gonna be the default way 686 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:22.880 to move money. 687 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:25.760 Absolutely. Do you think though there might still be a 688 00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:29.159 segment of the market, like the early adopters who are 689 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:31.960 very knowledgeable about this technology and say, hey, I want 690 00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:34.119 to hold USDC on coin base because it gives me 691 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:37.280 this x amount of ap y YEP per year. There 692 00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:38.440 might be a segment of. 693 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.920 The Oh, yield's going to be a huge thing, and 694 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:43.840 yield's not just gonna be a pro user kind of 695 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.639 a function. I think one of the giant benefits that 696 00:34:46.679 --> 00:34:49.199 you have, especially when you think about this emerging markets perspective, 697 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.639 The biggest advantage is, hey, I can hold dollars instead 698 00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.480 of my own currency. Right, That is value proposition one. 699 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.559 Once that becomes table stakes, what's next, And the answer 700 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:00.719 is now I can even earn yield on top of 701 00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:04.840 these holdings. That's amazing, right, And as people who are 702 00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:06.719 sitting here in New York and who live in the US, 703 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:12.239 we take interest bearing accounts so much for granted, right, 704 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:14.199 we take our And this was part of the stuff 705 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.519 kind of arguments that I may when you started the company, 706 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:18.719 where people are like, I don't understand the use case 707 00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:20.559 for stable coins. I'm like, you live in the US, 708 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:24.239 your default currency is US dollars. Go talk to someone 709 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:26.599 at Argentina and go ask them why they want a 710 00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:30.159 stable coin. You just can't appreciate that because you live 711 00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:33.679 in the country that owns the global reserve currency, right, 712 00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:36.199 and that's like maybe a cop out, but that is 713 00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:39.039 a super privileged position to be in. And in addition 714 00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:41.239 to being the global reserve currency, we're also used to 715 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.960 being able to open high interest accounts in one of 716 00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.639 I don't know, ten thousand VC backed fintech apps that 717 00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:51.079 can sit on your phone. But all of a sudden, 718 00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.760 when you bring that into markets where that isn't something 719 00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:56.440 that they're used to, this is transformative for the people 720 00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.840 who live there. And I think yield is going to 721 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.800 be the second value proposition for stable coins. The first 722 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:03.760 is going to be access to dollars and the second 723 00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:06.320 is going to be accessed to yield. Yeah. 724 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:10.079 He brought up a great point because behind this genius 725 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:13.079 or another layer to this genius law being put into place, 726 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.840 is the royal reserve currency, the US dollar dominance, right, 727 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:21.880 and this providing another avenue for people to purchase US treasuries. 728 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:25.519 And you got bricks trying to compete and bypass the 729 00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:29.119 US dollar. But now that you put in a digital format, here, 730 00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.000 throw it. Throw the wide cast net out there, a 731 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:33.360 bunch of people around the world are going to be 732 00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:36.400 able to easily access to the dollar, get yield. You 733 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.840 see this boosting the adoption to the US dollar. 734 00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:42.360 Stable Coins are without a doubt, and I will argue 735 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.239 at length with anybody about this. This is a hill 736 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.559 that I will die on. Stable coins are by far 737 00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:50.639 the best way for the US to export the dollar 738 00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:54.400 around the world. That is a factual statement, and that 739 00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:58.280 is part of why, outside of whatever your political affiliations 740 00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:00.800 are and your feelings about the current administry and things 741 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:02.840 like that that can be very polarizing, I understand as 742 00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:06.440 a wide range of views, they're outside of that. As 743 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.159 a country, we need to be pro stable coin, and 744 00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:13.320 we need to be pro fully reserved, and we need 745 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:17.719 to be pro legislation and regulation around issuance. Not because 746 00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:20.800 this is political party A, your political party B, but 747 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:25.559 because this is the best way to continue and grow 748 00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:30.079 US dollar dominance around the world, and our entire economy 749 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:33.800 is based on US dollar dominance around the world. If 750 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:36.440 that is all of a sudden untrue, the quality of 751 00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.639 life that we have all come to be complacent in 752 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:41.880 and that we have all come to enjoy is going 753 00:37:41.960 --> 00:37:47.800 to look very very different from now. And there are people, countries, governments, whatever, 754 00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:51.320 who aren't in first place, who wake up every day 755 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.960 trying to figure out how they're going to be in 756 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:55.920 first place. You know, there's that there's that great saying 757 00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:59.119 that I that I love. It's like, you know, bad 758 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:03.039 times creates strong men. Strong men create good times, good 759 00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.840 times create weak men, and weak men create bad times. 760 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:11.679 And I think it's difficult to argue that the US 761 00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:15.079 for the past one hundred years hasn't been good times. 762 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.440 And we've taken a lot of things for granted that 763 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:26.000 other political nation states haven't been able to take for granted. 764 00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:28.920 And where they're hungry and they're innovative and they're trying 765 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:32.000 to get to that top spot, we're becoming very complacent. 766 00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:35.880 And as stable coins represents the best way for US 767 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.480 to export the dollar globally, we as a country, regardless 768 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.199 of political affiliation, need to all be all in on 769 00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:45.239 stable coins if we're going to have a fighting chance 770 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:46.039 over the long term. 771 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:49.239 Yeah, And there's so much history behind the US dollar 772 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:51.559 being the wild reserve currency after World War Two and 773 00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.960 how that shifted the entire world, and then they backed 774 00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:56.880 it with Goal and all the other currencies were pegged 775 00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:01.760 to US dollar. And then you have with this technology 776 00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:05.320 the ability for China or folks in the EU or 777 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:08.199 Russia or whatever to be able to try to take 778 00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:11.599 advantage because it's moving so fast, it's in digital format, 779 00:39:11.639 --> 00:39:15.119 and I can easily push it into different markets. You know, 780 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:16.519 I was talking to someone about it. You know, with 781 00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:19.280 China developing certain parts of Africa, it's easy for them 782 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.199 to push their digital you want, and everybody there, why 783 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:24.960 they may not have a computer, they have smartphones, set 784 00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:26.719 up the wallet there you go. 785 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:29.920 And these things are happening. This is not tinfoil hat 786 00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:33.360 conspiracy theory, like there are geopolitical battles that are happening 787 00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.480 on the nation state level. China is not investing tremendous 788 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:38.960 and again I'll put my tinfoil hat away, but China's 789 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:43.440 not investing tremendous amounts of capital into developing markets because 790 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:46.119 they feel like helping people. That is not what is 791 00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:49.519 going on, right, And there is a very long term game. 792 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:51.880 And it's not just China, it's others right as well. 793 00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:53.880 You've got the petro dollar stuff, You've got some like 794 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:57.880 rick stuff, and there are you know more than one 795 00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.159 nation state that are actively trying to figure out how 796 00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:03.760 do they disrupt dollar global dominance and put you know there, 797 00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.559 whether it's a controltion framework or whether it's their currency, 798 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.199 you know, how do they take that spot? And again, 799 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:12.599 it's something we don't think about, right. We think about 800 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.239 what's when's my next PTO? What am I going to 801 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:19.599 eat for dinner? When do I you know, where am 802 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.840 I going with my wife for date night? And I 803 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:25.039 think unfortunately, I think the same can be said of 804 00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:27.280 a lot of our political leaders where we're not really 805 00:40:27.400 --> 00:40:32.559 in a landscape today that's thinking about, well, what is 806 00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:34.920 the best thing for the US on one hundred year 807 00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:36.960 time horizon. And maybe part of that is because you 808 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.480 have a four year term and you're like, screw, screw 809 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:40.239 the hundred years, right, I just need to have a 810 00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:43.480 good four years, right. But I think there's you know, 811 00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:45.360 very real long term threats in the US, and then 812 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.159 stable coins are a phenomenal way to mitigate those. 813 00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:49.840 So do you think some of those risks and threats 814 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.199 have been mitigated by this law being passed? And again, 815 00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:55.400 it doesn't matter politically, why if it was another president, 816 00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:57.159 it doesn't matter, But at the end of the day, 817 00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.679 Congress got the bill through given in a president's yep. 818 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:04.599 I think that's huge for US, and I don't think 819 00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.159 it's too late. Right. Obviously, we're not the first. There's 820 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.800 been MIKA regulations, There's been a lot of other things. 821 00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:12.480 I can't make the statement that the US is leading 822 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.800 the way on stable coin innovation. But if we did 823 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:17.719 this a decade from now, it would be way too late. 824 00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:21.079 Doing this now we at least we're not first, but 825 00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:24.599 we're in the leading group. We have the ability to 826 00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:27.320 do this. Right. Our economy, in addition to being based 827 00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:29.880 on dollar dominance, also based on innovation. Right. If you 828 00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.480 look at the amount of enterprise value that's created in 829 00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:35.480 the world, a large concentration of the enterprise value is 830 00:41:35.480 --> 00:41:38.119 created in the United States. And it does so because 831 00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:41.440 we have an entrepreneurial and innovation culture that allows for 832 00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:44.800 the creation of net new things in the world. And 833 00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:48.039 we should combine that culture with the most important asset 834 00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:50.519 we have, which is the dollar. And if we put 835 00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:52.760 those two things together, we can create some pretty amazing things. 836 00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:54.400 And that's what the entables. 837 00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:59.760 I want to explore just the perspective of someone, let's 838 00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:02.679 say Venezuela or in some country in Africa. So let's 839 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:07.039 say I have a friend in Venezuela and he's like, hey, 840 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:09.679 any help to get something done in my house or whatever. 841 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:12.159 Maybe I send him one thousand dollars worth of us 842 00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:16.519 DC or USDT with the infrastructure that's being built. Now, 843 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:19.440 can he spend some of that but also hold some 844 00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:21.559 of that and earn yield, but also put it into 845 00:42:21.559 --> 00:42:23.559 some sort of DeFi protocol and do more. 846 00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:25.880 Yep, that's exactly kind of what the what the off 847 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.360 ramping part and the DeFi ecosystem's worth. So what you 848 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.679 don't want to do in these markets is you don't 849 00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:34.119 want to do like the old school Western Union thing. 850 00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:36.239 And what the old school Western Union thing is is 851 00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:39.079 I send you one thousand dollars and you in Venezuela 852 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:43.800 receive Venezuelan currency. Right, One, the transfer is slow, to 853 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:46.960 the transfer is expensive, and three the transfer fully converts. 854 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:50.400 And the fully converts piece is actually the biggest issue. Right, 855 00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:52.679 What you want to do in an emerging market that 856 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:54.840 doesn't have a super stable currency or has a lot 857 00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:57.719 of inflationary issues is you want to be able to 858 00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:01.239 retain as much of that balance as possible dollars. So now, 859 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:03.000 all of a sudden, if I send you a thousand dollars, 860 00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:04.719 then you need to use a hundred of it. It 861 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:07.880 doesn't fully convert on receipt. Right, you can say, Okay, 862 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.480 I've gotten a thousand dollars, I'm going to convert a 863 00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:15.000 hundred of it for groceries, rents, fixing the house, whatever 864 00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:16.639 it is that I want to do. I'm going to 865 00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:19.079 hold the other nine hundred dollars still in dollars in 866 00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:21.960 stable coin form, and then talking about yield as the 867 00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.960 second giant use case, I'm now going to go and 868 00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:25.880 I'm going to earn yield on this right. And I 869 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:28.159 may do that through a yield bearing stable coin. I 870 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:30.840 may do that through a DeFi protocol. I may do 871 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.360 that through some sort of like a lending protocol. Granted 872 00:43:33.400 --> 00:43:35.760 there's counter party, the risk profile change is very differently 873 00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:39.280 on that. But I can start to do things with 874 00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:41.719 these dollars that I haven't been able to do before. 875 00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:45.039 And I think one of the questions is, okay, well, 876 00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:48.320 if you extrapolate this out a decade, would you ever 877 00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:51.079 need to convert it back to Venezuelan currency or would 878 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:54.199 you be able to pay for everything in dollars, And 879 00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.239 there's a really strong narrative going around in the stable 880 00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.599 coin space around dollarization that's like, hey, off ramps are 881 00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:01.920 completely meaningless because in the long run everything's gonna be 882 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:07.079 dollar based stable coins. I don't like that narrative, and 883 00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:09.960 I'll tell you why. When you think about these nation states, 884 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:13.599 whether it's Venezuela or anything else, a large amount of 885 00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.880 the power that the government has comes from the central 886 00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.920 bank and controlling their currency. And if you look at markets, 887 00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:22.360 especially markets with strong capital controls, look at India, look 888 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:23.800 at Turkey, look at these places, there's a lot of 889 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:26.519 stable cooin adoption happening there. I just don't see a 890 00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:29.719 world in which the Indian government, as an example, wakes 891 00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:31.760 up ten years from now and is like, oh wow, 892 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:33.800 nobody uses ion R anymore when as well sunset it 893 00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:36.679 and just adopt dollars as a country, That's not happening. 894 00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:40.079 So I do think in the long term there is 895 00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:43.239 probably a digital I in R that things convert to, 896 00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:46.760 but there's still gonna be a need for the infrastructure 897 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.920 that takes that USDC and that converts it to a 898 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.159 local central bank controlled currency. Whether it's a CBDC or 899 00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:56.599 an independent stable coin, doesn't really matter. The point is 900 00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:00.239 countries aren't going to throw their own currency away in 901 00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:02.679 favor of the US dollar. They haven't done that historically. 902 00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:04.000 They're not going to do that in the future. That 903 00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:08.360 completely erodes their country's identity. 904 00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:11.159 I mean literally, wars were fought over it. Yes, Like 905 00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:12.239 I said, no, one's going to be. 906 00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:14.599 Like, yeah, armies have died over this. They're not going 907 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:17.239 to randomly wake up one day and change their mind. Right, 908 00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:21.480 We're still going to have fragmentation. Fragmentation exists by currency, right, 909 00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:24.400 Most countries have their own currency, Most countries have their 910 00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:28.519 own regulatory frameworks and regulatory licenses. So no matter what 911 00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:31.960 the end state is from a blockchain technology standpoint, the 912 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:34.480 reality of nation states is that we're still going to 913 00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.679 have global fragmentation. Right. We also have fragmentation by language. 914 00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:40.159 There was an attempt to create a universal language a 915 00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:43.280 while back, right, Like, these things don't work because there's 916 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:49.519 so much national identity, national pride, and most importantly, governmental 917 00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:54.360 power that's tied to creating that fragmentation and owning these 918 00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:54.960 things yourself. 919 00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:59.920 Absolutely, yeah, well put and I don't see the European Union, 920 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:02.679 and they're creating the digital Euro. They're not going to 921 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:04.519 give that up. Say oh yeah, just use US dollars. 922 00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:07.719 China digital yuwan are no way. 923 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.159 China is not replacing the yuon with dollars. If I'm 924 00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:14.559 wrong about that, the world will be a very different 925 00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:16.199 place than it is today. 926 00:46:18.199 --> 00:46:20.760 But it's fascinating because now you know, I could be 927 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.000 in any part of the world and have a US 928 00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:26.840 dollar savings account, which is going to be game changing. 929 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:28.840 That is game changing, and that's why it's the best 930 00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:31.079 way to export the US dollar around the world. Right. 931 00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:33.239 And not only can you have a US dollar savings 932 00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:39.159 account as a consumer, think about companies in these different areas. Right. So, yes, 933 00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:41.199 there's been a little bit more access to dollar banking 934 00:46:41.239 --> 00:46:42.599 on the corporate side around the world, and there has 935 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:44.400 been on the consumer side, but it's still a hard 936 00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:47.480 problem from a corporate standpoint. And if you think that, 937 00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:50.639 you know, your thousand bucks of savings in an emerging 938 00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:53.000 market country is a big deal to you, imagine what 939 00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:55.000 the corporate balance sheet is as a big deal to 940 00:46:55.039 --> 00:47:00.320 that corporate right. And now stable coins are also simply 941 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:04.519 changing the treasury game because all these companies in emerging 942 00:47:04.519 --> 00:47:07.800 markets that haven't been big enough to get multi currency 943 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:10.280 accounts and things of that nature, but have considerably more 944 00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:13.719 dry powder than the average retail individual. They're also looking 945 00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.920 at it going, wait a minute, we can protect against 946 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:18.119 inflation on our entire balance sheet by going to a 947 00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:20.360 stable coin, and then we can start to create yield 948 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:22.920 bearing programs on top of that, with interest sparing things 949 00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:26.119 with tokenized tea bills, with like you know, Benji and 950 00:47:26.199 --> 00:47:29.280 Biddle and all those different things. The work that Ondo's doing, 951 00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:31.320 and a lot of the tokenizing yield and money market 952 00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.679 fund side that's game changing for corporates. And now those 953 00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:38.000 are multimillion dollar ticket sizes versus on hundred dollar ticket sizes, 954 00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:39.719 right wow. 955 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:43.280 You know in El Salvador and some other countries, they 956 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:46.559 tried to do the payments infrastructure with bitcoin, but it 957 00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:48.920 seems like that's all going to be replaced by stable 958 00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:50.719 coins because I don't I have bitcoin. I don't want 959 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:52.719 to spend my bitcoin. Now bitcoin goes to like two 960 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.159 million dollars and I spend a few said towshe's okay, 961 00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:57.960 but sif like stable coins. 962 00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:02.320 Yeah, I think the way that I have always looked 963 00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:05.440 at adoption curves is that they happen a step at 964 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:09.559 a time and to convince people. And I'm long term 965 00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:13.719 super bullish on bitcoin. One of the things that I 966 00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:15.800 think has been challenging is to get people to adopt 967 00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:18.719 a whole new technology paradigm and to get people to 968 00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:20.960 accept a new form of money, even if it is 969 00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.480 harder money. To do those two things at the same 970 00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:27.719 time is massively, massively difficult. To get people to adopt 971 00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:32.039 a dollar on a new technology is a much much 972 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:34.719 easier lift. And once we get people to adopt a 973 00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:38.119 dollar on this crazy new technology, then all of a sudden, 974 00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:40.559 it's a much smaller lift to get them to adopt 975 00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:43.719 a better form of money on that new technology. And 976 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:46.840 I think, you know, maybe long term that's where that goes. Again, 977 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:48.639 I think you're gonna have a lot of nation states 978 00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:51.840 disinterested in that. Right. What else Salvador has done is 979 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:55.119 very unique in the world, and I don't think that 980 00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:57.000 we're going to see a bunch of nation states adopt 981 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.840 a bitcoin standard. Unfortunately, maybe they do, but I do 982 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:03.880 think that it certainly if stable coins represents a form 983 00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:07.679 of digital payments, I definitely think that bitcoin represents the 984 00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:11.800 best form we have of kind of digital value storage. 985 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:14.360 But I agree with you. It's you know, it's not 986 00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:16.280 going to become the default payments mechanism. 987 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:19.199 And it's like you said, the store of value digital goal. 988 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:21.639 If I have a goal bar, I'm not spending them 989 00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:24.400 that carrying it around to distort it, right, But I 990 00:49:24.519 --> 00:49:28.639 use my local currency, but that goal bar stays in 991 00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:30.920 my safe. I definitely want to keep it, and I 992 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:33.440 wanted to appreciate in value over time, but I want 993 00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:37.679 to spend my local currencies just easier. And I feel 994 00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:39.840 like it's the same thing happening with bigcoin. 995 00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:41.440 Exact same thing. And I think there's massive treasury use 996 00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:43.400 cases for bitcoin right, not in terms of like a 997 00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:46.880 leverage thing like you know some other companies have been doing, 998 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:48.519 but but I do think that every company, if you've 999 00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:51.199 got a long term treasury strategy, it's going to include 1000 00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:52.760 T bills, it's going to include things like that. A 1001 00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:55.000 lot of that is dollarizing with stable coins. I think 1002 00:49:55.039 --> 00:49:57.199 it really would behove most people to have a long 1003 00:49:57.280 --> 00:50:00.280 term treasury strategy that revolves around bitcoin. Right, need to 1004 00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:03.480 do the whole micro strategy, like complete dive into the 1005 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:06.039 deep end. But if you're a corporate that's holding one 1006 00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:08.599 hundred million dollars in treasury that represents you know, ten 1007 00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:11.400 years of lifespan. Why wouldn't you take twenty million of 1008 00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:12.840 that and if you don't need it for ten years, 1009 00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:15.880 hold it in bitcoin. Right, It really is to use 1010 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:18.320 your digital gold narrative. Like, it's a much better way 1011 00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.440 to store long term funds. Now. If you need liquid availability, 1012 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:23.239 stable coins are going to be way better for that. 1013 00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:24.679 But if you have a long term treasury, I think 1014 00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:26.079 it belongs to most people's bounce sheets. 1015 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:29.679 Yeah, all right. I want to get your thoughts on 1016 00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:32.480 the Clarity Act, the market structure bill that is expected 1017 00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:35.559 to pass late September early October. What do you think 1018 00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:37.360 the impact is going to be on the market for that. 1019 00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:41.679 I think, for lack of a better word, we're finally 1020 00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:45.360 gonna have regulatory clarity. Well named act. I guess you know, 1021 00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:48.039 cryptoek guy gave us not just genius, but it also 1022 00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:50.960 gave us gave us some clarity. And I think one 1023 00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:53.199 of the things that's been really difficult for digital assets 1024 00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:55.320 here in the US it's been what is the regulatory 1025 00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:56.159 framework that applies? 1026 00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:56.639 Right? 1027 00:50:56.679 --> 00:50:58.800 Is it a security, is it a commodity? Kind of 1028 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:03.400 what what happened here and kind of under under Gensler. 1029 00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:05.920 I think there was some overreach, right. I think maybe 1030 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:07.920 that's a polite way to put it. There are a 1031 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:10.199 lot of arguments that were made that like, hey, everything's 1032 00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:12.440 a security like it just went a little bit nuts. 1033 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:17.159 But fundamentally, that is a very good question, and it's 1034 00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:19.239 a question that nobody yet has been able to answer 1035 00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:22.360 because we haven't given it regulatory clarity. And if we 1036 00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:25.360 can get clarity passed, I really like the concept of 1037 00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:27.239 the dual market structure, right, I think that makes a 1038 00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:29.800 lot of sense. You know. One of the analogies that 1039 00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:31.159 I love to use for like, oh, how do you 1040 00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:33.400 regulate a token? Is like, great, how do you regulate 1041 00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:35.920 a pdf? Right? A pdf can be an image of 1042 00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:38.559 my cats, a PDF could be the title to my car, 1043 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:42.119 a pdf could be a legal agreement. Regulating a pdf 1044 00:51:42.440 --> 00:51:47.000 makes no sense. Regulating what the PDF represents that makes 1045 00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:49.159 a lot of sense, right. And I believe the same 1046 00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.360 thing about tokens, and how do you regulate a crypto token? 1047 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:54.599 I think is a horrible question to ask because there's 1048 00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:57.760 so many different structures of token. A token is just software, 1049 00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:01.079 that's all it is, how do you regulate software? Well, 1050 00:52:01.079 --> 00:52:03.639 what does the software do? If the software makes payments, 1051 00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:06.719 you probably regulate it like payments. If the software lets 1052 00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:09.360 you post funny JPEGs of your cat, you probably regulate 1053 00:52:09.400 --> 00:52:12.440 it like a social network. Right, And I think clarity 1054 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.079 is some really good first steps of doing that, of saying, Okay, 1055 00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.880 we're not just going to regulate a piece of software 1056 00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:22.079 as this blind overarching thing. We're going to look at 1057 00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:24.519 the characteristics and we're gonna say, okay, what does this 1058 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:27.360 actually do? And then based off of what it actually does, 1059 00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:29.199 then we're going to regulate it as a commodity or 1060 00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:31.199 as a security. And I think we can take that 1061 00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:33.039 framework a lot further. And I really hope that this 1062 00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.559 evolves over time, but I think that's a great place 1063 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:35.920 to start. 1064 00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:39.119 Yeah, I'm so excited to have that in the market. 1065 00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:41.760 I know it's not perfect, but it's going to really help, 1066 00:52:42.039 --> 00:52:45.320 you know, give the market and builders and innovators clarity 1067 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:47.199 and they can, you know, stop looking over at their 1068 00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:49.239 shoulder and just put their heads down and start working. 1069 00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:51.880 Right, that's what we need to do. Short term number 1070 00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:56.480 go up, long term builders building, that's what's actually sustainable. 1071 00:52:56.920 --> 00:53:00.440 Yeah, and it's funny. You know, along with stable coins, 1072 00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:03.199 we see a lot of banks and big institutions are 1073 00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:06.840 now looking to launch crypto services DeFi trading, custody and 1074 00:53:06.920 --> 00:53:11.119 so forth, and this bill might spark a huge adoption run. 1075 00:53:11.599 --> 00:53:14.679 Just yesterday, Jpmore reports that JP Morgan wants to launch 1076 00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:17.039 crypto lending. P and C Bank is partnering with coinbase 1077 00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:20.159 to launch crypto trading. It's incredible what's happening. 1078 00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:25.519 These giant institutions that make tremendous amounts of money are 1079 00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:29.719 not dumb. They haven't been on the sidelines of this 1080 00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:33.760 market because they didn't see opportunities to make money. They've 1081 00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:36.039 been on the sidelines of this market because they haven't 1082 00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:39.280 had their regulatory clarity to enter that market. And they 1083 00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:41.639 understand the size of the target that is on their 1084 00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:44.039 backs versus the size of the target that is on 1085 00:53:44.119 --> 00:53:49.719 other people's backs. And it's you know, I would imagine 1086 00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:53.039 that once those regulatory frameworks are in place, and again 1087 00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:56.440 Fleck better word, the clarity exists, we are going to 1088 00:53:56.519 --> 00:54:01.159 see over the next year every significant traditional finance market 1089 00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:05.039 participants come into this space, and I think that will 1090 00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:12.440 rock some of the current incumbents. The level of volumes, connections, technology, 1091 00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:15.239 sophistication of some of these Wall Street and kind of 1092 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:20.719 like traditional finance firms is insane. And some of the 1093 00:54:21.400 --> 00:54:24.280 you know, like crypto brokerage apps and things like that 1094 00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:27.000 that have great volume today. I would argue one of 1095 00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.840 the only reasons they have volume today is because people 1096 00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:33.960 can't do this in JPM or Schwab or e Trade 1097 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:37.039 or other places. As soon as that turns on, I 1098 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:38.280 would not want to be in their. 1099 00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:41.519 Business spot on. I've been talking about this that, you know, 1100 00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:45.199 crypto native companies, they better up their game because. 1101 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:47.519 And I think that's good. I think that's healthy for 1102 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:50.960 the market. Crypto native companies should be winning because they're 1103 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.800 providing the best products and services to their customers. They 1104 00:54:53.800 --> 00:54:56.599 shouldn't be winning because the competition is sidelined by fear. 1105 00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:59.840 Right. Well put man, I'm excited. I think it's going 1106 00:54:59.880 --> 00:55:01.800 to be a great Q three Q four for the 1107 00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:04.840 Q three And we got to do another round of this. 1108 00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:06.480 Since you are close by, You're. 1109 00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:08.360 Like, it's right up the street. It's perfect. 1110 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:11.320 Awesome, Kevin Pleasure, thank you for joining me. 1111 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:21.119 Thank you for the time. Am m H