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<v Speaker 1>Groutings, friends, and welcome back to the podcast of Jewish Ideas,

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<v Speaker 1>a Torah in motion production. I'm jj Kimbley. Today's podcast

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<v Speaker 1>is brought to you by Kestenbaum and Company, a boutique

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<v Speaker 1>auction house dedicated to the sale of rare books, manuscripts

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<v Speaker 1>and fine arts. The next auction is on Tuesday, the

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<v Speaker 1>eighteenth of November twenty twenty five. It features some gems

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<v Speaker 1>for the Jewish and the Bookish, and you could already

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<v Speaker 1>place your bids online. You might consider a bid on

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<v Speaker 1>Lot one hundred and ninety four, which is a fifteenth

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<v Speaker 1>century manuscript of my Monod's Mission of Torah. Or perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>if you liked that series on sharp Tit's feet, you

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<v Speaker 1>can take a look at Lots sixty three and sixty four,

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<v Speaker 1>which includes some splendid works first editions from Royaku Mden

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<v Speaker 1>and Rejannison ibishits are, including part of their Battle of Words.

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<v Speaker 1>Were my academic salary to be slightly less meager, perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>I'd run for the original copy of a fifteen ninety

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<v Speaker 1>three papal proclamation calling for the burning of the Talmud.

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<v Speaker 1>And I know that our producer Elisha here would kill

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<v Speaker 1>for lock two hundred and sixteen, the first ever English

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<v Speaker 1>language Kosher cookbook. To see the full catalog and place

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<v Speaker 1>your bids, click the link in the description, or for

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<v Speaker 1>more information visit Kestenbaum dot net. Here. On the Podcast

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<v Speaker 1>of Jewish Ideas, we are currently running a multi part

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<v Speaker 1>series on the thorny and intriguing issue of Judaism and universalism.

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<v Speaker 1>In pursuit of enlightenment and insight on this topic, we

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<v Speaker 1>will be journeying through the full sweep of Jewish intellectual history,

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<v Speaker 1>from the Bible down to our own day, inviting our

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<v Speaker 1>ergudiguests to reflect on the many questions and proposed solutions

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<v Speaker 1>that are brought to the four in the discussion of

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<v Speaker 1>these issues. On today's episode, we'll be exploring the world

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<v Speaker 1>of medieval Jewish philosophy and examining the extent to which

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<v Speaker 1>the dichotomy of universalism and particularism may be used to

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<v Speaker 1>categorize the ideas and writings of some of the most

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<v Speaker 1>important thinkers of that age. Our guest today is my

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<v Speaker 1>old teacher and mentor, doctor Manahem Kellner, who is the

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<v Speaker 1>Wolfson Professor Emeritus of Jewish Thought at the University of Haifa.

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<v Speaker 1>And was the founding chair of the Department of Jewish

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<v Speaker 1>Philosophy and Thought at Shalem College, Jerusalem. Professor Kellner is

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<v Speaker 1>the author of numerous books and articles precisely on our

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<v Speaker 1>subject today, including his recent work My Monety is the

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<v Speaker 1>Universalist The Ethical Horizons of the Mischtah, published by Lidmann

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<v Speaker 1>Library of Judicivilization in twenty twenty. It is a pleasure

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<v Speaker 1>to welcome Professor Kellner to the Podcast of Jewish Ideas today.

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<v Speaker 2>Professor welcome, Thank you very much, and masaltove on your

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<v Speaker 2>recent accomplishment. I'm talking to doctor JJ Kimkey.

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<v Speaker 1>That's very kind to your professor. And of course we'll see.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see how the rest of this conversation goes. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>see if we're still on what such good terms by

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<v Speaker 1>the end, because I intend to dig into some serious,

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<v Speaker 1>serious topics here, So let's jump in before we go

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<v Speaker 1>to the whole discussion of the Rambam and other figures.

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<v Speaker 1>I've not defined terms a little bit. I'm used the

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<v Speaker 1>term universalism very often in writing band the Rabam and

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<v Speaker 1>others in Jewish dupal philosophy. Could you perhaps give us

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<v Speaker 1>something of a definition or at least explain the parameters

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<v Speaker 1>of the time as you understand it, then as it

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<v Speaker 1>applies to medieval jewishilosophy.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me start with two introductory comments, and you'll stop

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<v Speaker 2>me if I get off the track too much. First,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is I think very important to note, universalism

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<v Speaker 2>is not a word in Hebrew, and there is no

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<v Speaker 2>way of translating it into Hebrew except for saying universaliute

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<v Speaker 2>or something like that. That has to be addressed. Secondly,

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<v Speaker 2>it is my opinion, my correct opinion, that the Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>tradition itself is neither universalist nor particularist, but rather it

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<v Speaker 2>has elements of universalism and elements of particularism, and certain

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<v Speaker 2>figures emphasize one kind of element, other figures emphasize the

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<v Speaker 2>other kind of argument. So that's the first two introductory

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<v Speaker 2>comments I wanted to make as to what I take

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<v Speaker 2>universalism to mean within the Middle Medieval context, I e.

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<v Speaker 2>What my monety's thought. Of course, what my mon's thought

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<v Speaker 2>is always a vexed issue, since there as many monities

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<v Speaker 2>as there are people read him. But luckily for you

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<v Speaker 2>and me, I've got the right mamanity, so we're okay

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<v Speaker 2>in any of it. I would start with three basic claims,

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<v Speaker 2>and then if you want, I'd be happy to expand

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<v Speaker 2>on them. The first basic claim of my monity and

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<v Speaker 2>universalism is universalism is that all human beings are created

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<v Speaker 2>in the image of God. No ifs, no butts, no,

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<v Speaker 2>wherefores no restrictions. Can I call him Rambam. It's easier

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<v Speaker 2>for me. Rambam takes the opening verses of Genesis seriously,

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<v Speaker 2>where it says that God created all human beings in

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<v Speaker 2>the divine image, whatever that means. So I think Rama

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<v Speaker 2>takes that very, very seriously. A second point is the

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<v Speaker 2>notion of chosenness is very important in Judaism, notion of

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<v Speaker 2>covenant between God and the Jewish people. But there are

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<v Speaker 2>many ways of understanding what it means to be a

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<v Speaker 2>chosen people, and certainly in the view of Rambam, it

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<v Speaker 2>carries with it no sense of an inherent superiority. In general,

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<v Speaker 2>expanding that point, Rombab's God does not endow people with gifts.

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<v Speaker 2>Rombam's God challenges people to do things, and so Faraba

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<v Speaker 2>on the idea of the chosen people is a challenge

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<v Speaker 2>to behave in a certain fashion. It's not a gift

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<v Speaker 2>that God has given to the Jewish people, the exclusion

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<v Speaker 2>of all others. And finally, a third general point is

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<v Speaker 2>and connected to all this is there is a debate

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<v Speaker 2>in the rabbinic panetic literature, the literature of the messenaics ages,

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<v Speaker 2>over to whom was the Torah actually addressed. So one

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<v Speaker 2>side of the debate says that Torab was given to Israel,

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<v Speaker 2>to the Jewish people. The other side of the debate

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<v Speaker 2>says that ultimately the Torah is addressed to call by

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<v Speaker 2>a olum all human beings. So certainly the point that

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<v Speaker 2>David Gillison I made in our book about my monitoring

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<v Speaker 2>is that Ramman thought that the terro was ultimately addressed

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<v Speaker 2>to all human beings. Those like three basic points of

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<v Speaker 2>the where I understand universalism. Since I made a professor

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<v Speaker 2>a very long time, I feel like I'll expand on that.

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<v Speaker 1>Or I will I will ask that in a moment,

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<v Speaker 1>but I want to. I want to made a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of sort of preliminary questions beforehand, and one of them

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<v Speaker 1>is a little bit that it seems to me at

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<v Speaker 1>least and Kramn fam wrong, that there's something about philosophy

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<v Speaker 1>as such that could or perhaps necessarily does push on

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<v Speaker 1>towards universalism. In other words, that because of course, the

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<v Speaker 1>medieval period that we're discussing is the time that Jewish

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<v Speaker 1>thinkers like my one of these, like Zid you're going,

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<v Speaker 1>like bas turned towards philosophy, turn towards discipline of philosophy,

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<v Speaker 1>and of course those days that included science and physicsca.

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<v Speaker 1>And in order to engage in that, you have to

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<v Speaker 1>have a basic understanding that those of other traditions have

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<v Speaker 1>wise things to say and and have some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>access to truth, and have some sort of ability to

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<v Speaker 1>to formulate truth and to discover truth in some sort

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<v Speaker 1>of way. And that seems to me ready to lead

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<v Speaker 1>or to open the door somewhat to a kind of

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<v Speaker 1>universalistic outlook. Is that how do you characterize that that claim?

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<v Speaker 1>In other words, does philosophy necessitate this? Can philosophy lead

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<v Speaker 1>to it? Is there a much more tenuous connection? What

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<v Speaker 1>do you say is the connection there?

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<v Speaker 2>I would characterize that claim is one hundred percent correct?

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<v Speaker 1>Fair enough? Okay, that's very kind of you. And then

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<v Speaker 1>then let me ask, but isn't it the case? There

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<v Speaker 1>were some who were involved in philosophy who who then

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<v Speaker 1>went down a very much a non universalistic roots. In

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<v Speaker 1>other words, how could it be the one engaged in

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<v Speaker 1>philosophy but then sort of interest towards particularism or runs

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<v Speaker 1>towards it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you're aiming at you, Huda lav Okay, let's let's

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<v Speaker 2>dive into that that's trying to get to. Let me

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<v Speaker 2>first say a few words about the other side. Why

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<v Speaker 2>philosophy leads to universalism. All the people we call medieval

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish philosophers live Phileo out of the question because he

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<v Speaker 2>had no impact on subsequent Jewish life. But starting with

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<v Speaker 2>Sadia go on and moving up until say, the the

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<v Speaker 2>Gerus Farad the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in

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<v Speaker 2>fourteen ninety two, you have a long list of people

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<v Speaker 2>who took philosophy seriously, which meant that they read philosophers.

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish philosophy in the Middle Ages is a product of

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<v Speaker 2>exposure to non Jewish sources. If it's Soagia with the

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<v Speaker 2>klam if it's you mentioned him in Pancudo, with Neoplatonism,

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<v Speaker 2>certainly Rombaum and neoplatonized aris Ittillianism, et cetera, all the

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<v Speaker 2>way through. So I guess the best way to make

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<v Speaker 2>this point briefly is that if you were not open

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<v Speaker 2>to being influenced by outside sources, you didn't do philosophy.

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<v Speaker 2>My friend and colleague Evesrabisky once pointed out before his

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<v Speaker 2>accident that there were two kinds of miemonodeans in the

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<v Speaker 2>Middle Ages. There were the Tawmudic mimonodeans and the philosophical mimonodeans.

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<v Speaker 2>The Tawmudiic mimonodeans read primarily the Missionatara. That's the rob

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<v Speaker 2>bomb of the Yeshiva world today, or I should say

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<v Speaker 2>the non Zionis Yeshiva world today, and they had no

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<v Speaker 2>interest in Romam's philosophical writings. Let me illustrate that the

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<v Speaker 2>mimonodes Ramum's Missionatora, his alot of work, begins with four

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<v Speaker 2>chapters summarizing the structure of the universe has understood in

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<v Speaker 2>contemporary philosophy and science. The rest of the book is

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<v Speaker 2>all you might call straightforward dry, not dry, but straightforward

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<v Speaker 2>helaja Jewish law. Now, if you examined, say the database

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<v Speaker 2>that Barilin University put out looking for hyperlinks on my

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<v Speaker 2>monodes Missionatora, so the first four chapters have almost no

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<v Speaker 2>hyperlinks to rabbinic literature, and after that the thousands or

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<v Speaker 2>If you look at a traditional picture of the missionatora,

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<v Speaker 2>a page of the Missionatura looks like a page of Talmud,

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<v Speaker 2>a small amount of Rambamb in the middle, surrounded by many,

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<v Speaker 2>many commentaries. The first four chapters are a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>Rambam and the one major commentary there is so unimportant

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<v Speaker 2>that nobody knows who it is. It's called the commentary.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is an example of the way in which

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<v Speaker 2>the rabbinic or tom Mudich Mamanodaeans took Rambamb very seriously,

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<v Speaker 2>but did We're not interested in his philosophical work and

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<v Speaker 2>largely not aware of it. And then you have the

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<v Speaker 2>philosophical Maimonideans, who, because they were traditionally observant Jews, knew

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<v Speaker 2>about the Halakha, but it didn't didn't move them. That

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't where their heads were at. They were interested in living.

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<v Speaker 2>So they studied the Guide of the Perplexed Bokim, and

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<v Speaker 2>they were commentaries on it in respet, sponsors to it,

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<v Speaker 2>and translated it without paying a lot of attention to

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<v Speaker 2>his alohic work. So the fact that we focus on

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<v Speaker 2>people who wrote Jewish philosophy means by definition, we're focusing

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<v Speaker 2>on people who were open to the cultural world around them.

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<v Speaker 2>It's important to point out these people were not assimilated,

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<v Speaker 2>but they were definitely acculturated. The very fact that Saja

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<v Speaker 2>wrote in Arabic and Rambam wrote in Arabic, and Huda

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<v Speaker 2>Halevi of all people wrote in ra you don't liive me.

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<v Speaker 2>The great, great Hebrew poet wrote his Kuzari in Arabic,

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<v Speaker 2>which means languages carry with them a whole world of ideas.

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<v Speaker 2>As you know, you know better than me because you

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<v Speaker 2>write so well in English. But you can't just write

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<v Speaker 2>a book in Arabic and not know something about the

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<v Speaker 2>Arabic world. Rama for example, will often sort of like

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<v Speaker 2>make references to passages from the Qur'an, not because he's

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<v Speaker 2>a quote, you know, a closet Muslim, because it's part

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<v Speaker 2>of the culture in which he grew up. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>his his Hebrew, as scholars who know more about this

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<v Speaker 2>than I do have pointed out, has lots of Arabisms.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he was. I love to say that to

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<v Speaker 2>my students. Rambam and I are alike. I think in

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<v Speaker 2>English and teaching Hebrew. He thought in Arabic and wrote

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<v Speaker 2>a Hebrew so Yeah, it's no doubt that you're right.

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<v Speaker 2>Once you're interested in the in these issues, in philosophical issues,

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<v Speaker 2>you are basically part of a world, part of a culture,

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<v Speaker 2>part of a universe of discourse which includes the sciences

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<v Speaker 2>and philosophy, especially in the Middle Ages where science was

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<v Speaker 2>part of philosophy.

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<v Speaker 1>So with that introduction, now let's move before we dive

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<v Speaker 1>different into the Rumbam, into who you have portrayed as

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<v Speaker 1>the rumbums Nemesis on this particular aspect, which is Rabbi

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<v Speaker 1>Hudan Levy, a poet, philosopher of the eleventh and twelfth

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<v Speaker 1>century and great work to Kuzaris, He's major philosophical work.

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<v Speaker 1>And so let me ask you, I mean, could you

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<v Speaker 1>explain what you mean by particularism in that context? Can

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<v Speaker 1>you offer your conception of a Hallevi and his and

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<v Speaker 1>why is he the sort of archetype of medieval Jewish particularism.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, first of all, he is not the archetype. He's

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<v Speaker 2>a moderate particularist. When you get to the Zohar you

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<v Speaker 2>get to really heavy duty particularism. But Halev is a

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<v Speaker 2>particularist in the following sense. His Book of Genesis is

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<v Speaker 2>not the one with which you're familiar. In his Book

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<v Speaker 2>of Genesis, the Jewish people were chosen from the moment

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<v Speaker 2>of creation. In other words, Adam and Eve had children,

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<v Speaker 2>two boys who fought and one killed the other. Why

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<v Speaker 2>because the murderer kane Kayne was jealous of Heavil. Because

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<v Speaker 2>Heavel had inherited from his parents, answer from his father

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<v Speaker 2>for all Avi's purposes, a particular we could call a

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<v Speaker 2>genetic compliment, which made him unlike his brother. And in

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<v Speaker 2>Alevi's view, in each generation, one person inherited this special

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<v Speaker 2>genetic component, shall we call it, until he got to Jacob,

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<v Speaker 2>all of whose children inherited it, and therefore they became

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<v Speaker 2>the children of Issuel, the children of Jacob, and they

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<v Speaker 2>were they were suddenly not just individuals but people. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>why does he have this view? And that's his view, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's his picture, is his rendition of the book of

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<v Speaker 2>Book of Genesis, which shows that the Torah was designed

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<v Speaker 2>from the very beginning of creation to be given to

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<v Speaker 2>a particular kind of person. Now that particular kind of

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<v Speaker 2>person carries I have to say with him, I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>a Lev doesn't mind having women in the picture, but

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<v Speaker 2>that wasn't his stick that particular genetic component enables that

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<v Speaker 2>person to achieve prophecy in principle, nothing more than that. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>Allavi will emphasize that human beings are human beings, Gentiles

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<v Speaker 2>can be saintly, he has no problem with it, but

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<v Speaker 2>he does have a problem with the idea that gentiles

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<v Speaker 2>could prophesy. Prophecy is something a gift. For rambamb prophecy

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<v Speaker 2>is something you earn, you create basically if you work

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<v Speaker 2>hard enough. But for a levy, it's a gift, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's a gift that's only given to people who have

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<v Speaker 2>this special gene of using genetic languages, even though it's

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<v Speaker 2>inappropriate to enable them to receive the gift, and that

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<v Speaker 2>would be the Jewish people. Does he just jump out

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<v Speaker 2>of the full blown with this kind of stuff. No,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I said, there are particular elements in Judaism and

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<v Speaker 2>universalistic elements. You can find in rabbinic texts, things which

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<v Speaker 2>emphasized the particular side. Don't ask me which ones, and

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<v Speaker 2>you can find elements. Certainly the text which emphasized the

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<v Speaker 2>universalist elements. Now it's not fair to psychoanalyze Haleevi, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'll do it. Anyway, Alevi lived in a world in

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<v Speaker 2>which his colleagues were Christians and Muslims. In Spain, the

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<v Speaker 2>Christians hated the Jews and the Muslims. The Muslims hated

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<v Speaker 2>the Christians and the Jews. You know the subtidy. They

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<v Speaker 2>were friendly people. There are also, but by and large

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<v Speaker 2>they shouldn't say hated, disdained, looked down upon. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>in Muslim Spain, where Alevi was born and raised before

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<v Speaker 2>he moved to the Christian side of the peninsula, there

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<v Speaker 2>were different kinds of Muslims, because Muslims of Arabic descent

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<v Speaker 2>saw themselves as adherently superior to Muslims of North African descent.

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<v Speaker 2>To it, Johnny cum Lately's I remember once I was

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<v Speaker 2>teaching a college William and Mary in Virginia. I had

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<v Speaker 2>a student who told me that whereas he came from

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<v Speaker 2>the southern side of the James River, where he was

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<v Speaker 2>raised as a child, for his whole life on the

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<v Speaker 2>northern side of the James River, people still called him

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<v Speaker 2>a come here.

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<v Speaker 1>So, as you say this, this kind of mild chauvinism

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<v Speaker 1>is hardly unique.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. So the Arabs of Spain, the Arabs of

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<v Speaker 2>Spain as opposed to the Muslims of Spain looked down

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<v Speaker 2>on Muslims who were not you might say, come over

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<v Speaker 2>on the Mayflower. So my reading is that Levy was

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<v Speaker 2>insulted by all this. He knew that he was a

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<v Speaker 2>great poet, he knew that he was a learned man

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<v Speaker 2>and accomplished in all the sciences, and yet his colleagues there,

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<v Speaker 2>the people with whom he had dealings, looked down on

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<v Speaker 2>him because he was a Jew. Now what's going on here?

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<v Speaker 2>You have to understand I'm being very unfair. I am

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<v Speaker 2>assuming that if a Leave had not been insulted, he

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have been a universalist. But that's not fair. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>Let's just me doing my thing. Viasably poor you and

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<v Speaker 2>al av. But that's an attempt for me on my

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<v Speaker 2>part to understand why he he presents Judaism in that light. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to emphasize, because of things that happened later,

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<v Speaker 2>he was not a racist, and nobody in the Middle

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<v Speaker 2>Ages were racists in the modern sense of the term.

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<v Speaker 2>There were no racist and Halabi did not deny that

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<v Speaker 2>gentiles could convert. Look, the whole book is I had

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<v Speaker 2>a conversation between a Jewish Jewish rabbi a Jew. My father,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a Jewish rabbi, was always amused by that

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<v Speaker 2>expression of Jewish rabbis if there are other kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>rabbis in any of it. Halabi's book is about a

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<v Speaker 2>gentile king getting prophetic inspiration, talking to a Jewish stage

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<v Speaker 2>and ultimately converted, so conversion was not a problem for him. However,

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<v Speaker 2>he was enough of a particularist to think that when

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<v Speaker 2>person converted to Judaism, that doesn't mean they can have prophecy.

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<v Speaker 2>They remain in effect, you might say, second class Jews,

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<v Speaker 2>with only with respect to the issue of prophecy and

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<v Speaker 2>their descendants. He doesn't specify after how many generations, two three, whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>their children they're grandual release the great grandchildren can become

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<v Speaker 2>if they've merged with the Jewish people. They they sort

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<v Speaker 2>of speak that they could say, the tate or the

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<v Speaker 2>genetic disability of the original convert doesn't go follow through.

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<v Speaker 2>So he is much less of a of a particulars

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<v Speaker 2>and people came after him, like some of the authors

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<v Speaker 2>of the zoar Is. Certainly the morale of Prague, certainly

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<v Speaker 2>most conceded. Most Jews today, it's important to point.

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<v Speaker 1>That to your much he is let's say, the first

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<v Speaker 1>theorist perhaps of a kind of particularism, which states that

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<v Speaker 1>there is something inherently different about Jews, that they possess

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of all this transcends Hebrews in yoh, right,

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<v Speaker 1>this sort of divine entity and uh, and that's essentially

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<v Speaker 1>passed on through the genes, although or you know, parents

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<v Speaker 1>a child. Unclear exactly why and how a spiritual quality

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<v Speaker 1>like that would be necessarily passed down. But but and

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<v Speaker 1>that's what that in his mind is what marks a

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<v Speaker 1>Jew essentially correct that exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>But and I'm doing my best to present all Levi

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<v Speaker 2>in the but to my mind are the best possible terms.

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<v Speaker 2>A Rabbi friend of mine once said, yes, haw Leave's

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<v Speaker 2>view is that Jews have this unique quality or characteristic. However,

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<v Speaker 2>before the coming of the Messiah, that's just theoretical, because

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<v Speaker 2>nobody else is going to become a prophet in principle, Therefore,

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<v Speaker 2>how Leave should be as welcome him to converse as

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<v Speaker 2>was Rambam, who was very welcoming. And I have no

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<v Speaker 2>idea what he thought about that. He obviously didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>a problem with converting the King of the Kasars and

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<v Speaker 2>all of his And the book says that the king

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<v Speaker 2>and all of his nation converted to Judaism, which Alb's

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<v Speaker 2>eyes was obviously a good idea. Whether or not he

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<v Speaker 2>believed it, I don't know, but that was the story

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<v Speaker 2>he told. So I've done, I've done my best just

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<v Speaker 2>now to present the most my monety in Alevia could find,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the opposite of what usually happens in most

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish circles. Rambam is converted to alv.

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<v Speaker 1>Right and uh and and well that's because they in

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<v Speaker 1>many Jewish circles, they hold Alevi's view up to be

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<v Speaker 1>a prototype of you know, or something to be, and

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<v Speaker 1>therefore Rama must be. So shoehorns into that. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>so let's cross the divide. I'd go back to Rama

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<v Speaker 1>for a moment. And okay, So for Alevi that something inherents,

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<v Speaker 1>something irreducible, something genetic, and in the soul that marks

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<v Speaker 1>a Jew. And your claim is that param is not

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<v Speaker 1>the case.

359
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<v Speaker 2>Exactly where did the Jews come from?

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<v Speaker 1>There was a guy who.

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<v Speaker 2>Lived in ancient Mesopotamia named Abraham, who, although he grew

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<v Speaker 2>grew up in a world full of idolators was smart

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<v Speaker 2>enough to realize that idolatry was nonsense, and for the

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<v Speaker 2>first forty years of his life he worried about this

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<v Speaker 2>subject and thought about it and investigated it, and then

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<v Speaker 2>had a moment of illumination when he realized that there

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<v Speaker 2>had to be a cause behind everything we see. And

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<v Speaker 2>so he discovered that there existed a one, unique God,

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<v Speaker 2>and in response to that, God made this Abraham, the

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<v Speaker 2>founder of God's people. But the important point you realize

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<v Speaker 2>is the way in which the Ramba presents this picture

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<v Speaker 2>in his work called a Loss concerning Idolatry or Pagan

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<v Speaker 2>worship Dza. It didn't have to be Abraham. Most of

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<v Speaker 2>my colleagues were secretary of hearing me say this. If

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<v Speaker 2>it had been a shaman in Nevada today, a Navajo

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<v Speaker 2>who was the first human being after the corruption of

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<v Speaker 2>humanity after the flood to rediscover God, then the Torah

378
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<v Speaker 2>would have been given in the Navajo language. The narratives

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<v Speaker 2>of the Torah would reflect the history of the Navajou people,

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<v Speaker 2>the holokhauv of the Torah, which would in its essence

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<v Speaker 2>be the same as the terra as we have it.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's outward clothing would reflect Navajo culture. Now Raba

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't say that. Okay, he never read Tony Hillermann, so

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<v Speaker 2>he doesn't know about the Navajos, But that is the

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<v Speaker 2>upshot of what he says there. God did not choose Abraham.

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<v Speaker 2>Abraham chose God, and Abraham's children had a hard time

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<v Speaker 2>with that, so much so that when they were in

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<v Speaker 2>Egypt they became idolaters. God had to in effect take

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<v Speaker 2>them out of Egypt and retrain them. All this Rambam

390
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<v Speaker 2>says was by way of it was recompensed to Abraham.

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<v Speaker 2>Because of Abraham's discovery of God. God promised him, and

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<v Speaker 2>promised Abraham that he would become the progenitor of a

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<v Speaker 2>nation especial nations, not specially in any hardware terms, but

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<v Speaker 2>especially in the sense that they were the nation meant

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<v Speaker 2>to teach God's Torah. Let me put to you like this,

396
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<v Speaker 2>Judaism was meant at first to be Abrahamic. What is

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<v Speaker 2>Abrahamic Judaism is the Judaism monotheism and Menschluchkite good behavior

398
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<v Speaker 2>and ram I'm basically in the thirty second chapter of

399
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<v Speaker 2>the third part of the Guide, he tells this story

400
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<v Speaker 2>how God gave Abraham no commandments, but you know, he

401
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:20.599
<v Speaker 2>had certain marks like circumcision and all, but there was

402
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<v Speaker 2>no there were no commandments for Abraham to obey, but

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<v Speaker 2>he was meant to be a progenitor of a holy nation.

404
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<v Speaker 2>If holiness is obviously reflects not inherent qualities, but the

405
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<v Speaker 2>way you behave I say, obviously that would be rob

406
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<v Speaker 2>BAM's view and mine as well for that matter. And

407
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<v Speaker 2>so the Jews went down to Egypt and reverted to idolatry.

408
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<v Speaker 2>So God stept them out of Egypt and brought them

409
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<v Speaker 2>to a place called Mara, where there was bitter water,

410
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<v Speaker 2>and they had to throw a log into the water

411
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.599
<v Speaker 2>to sweeten it. And there the Book of Exodus says

412
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:02.920
<v Speaker 2>that God gave the Jews to shabbat the Sabbath which

413
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.680
<v Speaker 2>teaches creation in cooring Rambam, and gave them a series

414
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:12.519
<v Speaker 2>of commandments to obey about interpersonal behavior. Do you need fine?

415
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.119
<v Speaker 2>So that's the second kind of Judaism that God was

416
00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:19.160
<v Speaker 2>aiming at my understanding of Rambam. Then we get to

417
00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Mount Sinai and the Jews and Moses failed to synchronize

418
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.200
<v Speaker 2>their watches. So Moses go up for forty days to

419
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:30.720
<v Speaker 2>Mount Sine. It disappears. The Jews keep looking at their

420
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:33.000
<v Speaker 2>what and where's Moses, Where's Moses? It doesn't show up,

421
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:41.279
<v Speaker 2>so they build the Golden Calf. That's when God says, Okay,

422
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 2>this is not going to work. I'm going to give

423
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:50.079
<v Speaker 2>them everything you need to replace Idolatrist worship, only it's

424
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:54.119
<v Speaker 2>going to be for a monotheistic God. And so you

425
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.119
<v Speaker 2>have the creation of the Tabernacle and the priests and

426
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:01.359
<v Speaker 2>the Levites and the whole apply of Jewish law to

427
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 2>keep the Jews separate so they will remain remain loyal

428
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.160
<v Speaker 2>to the notion of mantheistic notion. That's the picture Ramba

429
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:14.839
<v Speaker 2>presents in Guide three point thirty two, connecting it to

430
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:20.160
<v Speaker 2>the first chapter of Laws of Idolatry. Now that means

431
00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:24.319
<v Speaker 2>there's it could have been different, just like the laws

432
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:26.559
<v Speaker 2>of Juraism could have been different if they have been

433
00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:27.799
<v Speaker 2>given in a different period.

434
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:30.680
<v Speaker 1>And so okay, so that is that.

435
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.079
<v Speaker 2>This is yeah, I've shocked you.

436
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:39.440
<v Speaker 1>I know, I'm sorry, list, I've you took an entire course.

437
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 1>I wassusing the entire course on this subject. This is uh,

438
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.960
<v Speaker 1>this is you know, this is good stuff. But then okay,

439
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:49.519
<v Speaker 1>so with the Rambam heat so Judaism was given, aspects

440
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:52.440
<v Speaker 1>of Jewism were given, you know, in stages. I suppose

441
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.079
<v Speaker 1>as a response to the weeks of the people is

442
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.440
<v Speaker 1>fair enough, in which case I mean so. So then

443
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:01.799
<v Speaker 1>then let me ask what the RUMs is left for

444
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:05.440
<v Speaker 1>gentiles to do? And what is what is what is

445
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:09.880
<v Speaker 1>their role? Because in even levies, because sorry, it doesn't

446
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:11.240
<v Speaker 1>seem to be very much for them to do. But

447
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:14.519
<v Speaker 1>you'd expect if if indeed my mom is universalistic as

448
00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.000
<v Speaker 1>as you as you claim to them, surely as as

449
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.680
<v Speaker 1>you have claims, if you've written about and you've you've proven.

450
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:25.359
<v Speaker 1>That's a very strong word, especially in intellectual history. We

451
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:31.960
<v Speaker 1>don't use words like proven. But given you substantiated, let's say, okay,

452
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.720
<v Speaker 1>so what is the role what is the difference in

453
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:37.920
<v Speaker 1>the role of gentiles between as in these two thinkers.

454
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:41.839
<v Speaker 2>Ah, that's a really very good question.

455
00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:45.039
<v Speaker 1>It is the question that is begged by this particular difference.

456
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.319
<v Speaker 2>Right. Let me start by telling you a story. A

457
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:51.720
<v Speaker 2>friend of mine, a rabbi in America who is very

458
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:55.680
<v Speaker 2>my mind, and told me that he once asked three

459
00:28:55.720 --> 00:28:58.319
<v Speaker 2>of his teachers at you Shiv University of all places.

460
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:03.359
<v Speaker 2>Does God listen to the prayers of gentiles? So one said,

461
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 2>of course. Second rabbi said, of course not. The third

462
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.119
<v Speaker 2>rabbi says, I have no idea, and I don't care.

463
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Rab I'm agreed with the the yu rabbi who said,

464
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.119
<v Speaker 2>of course, God listens to the prayers of other people.

465
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Why why are there so many? Goam? The famous entomologist

466
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.319
<v Speaker 2>from Harvard your school, I forget his name, said God

467
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:35.960
<v Speaker 2>must be in orderly a love of beatles, because there

468
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.759
<v Speaker 2>are so many varieties.

469
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:43.599
<v Speaker 1>Of them, A shoal proof, a proof of that particular proposition.

470
00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:49.960
<v Speaker 2>That's right. So I ROBM doesn't actually address the question

471
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.359
<v Speaker 2>of why are so many gentiles? Uh, it's a fact,

472
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:55.039
<v Speaker 2>that's the way that I mean. He didn't even know

473
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.160
<v Speaker 2>about the Chinese, right, You know that India existed. You

474
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:00.640
<v Speaker 2>know they were billion of them. I guess at the

475
00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:02.480
<v Speaker 2>time that there weren't a billion, but there are quite

476
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:08.000
<v Speaker 2>a few. Certainly, He had no no knowledge of the Americas,

477
00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.799
<v Speaker 2>or of Africa or whatever. I mean. He knew that

478
00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:15.039
<v Speaker 2>Africa existed because he lived in Egypt, right, But that's

479
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:18.599
<v Speaker 2>about it. I think it's a fact. That's the way

480
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:24.240
<v Speaker 2>the world. You know, after the after the flood and

481
00:30:24.279 --> 00:30:28.240
<v Speaker 2>after the Tower of Babel, people split up. According to

482
00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:31.880
<v Speaker 2>the biblical story, I don't think they have a role

483
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:38.720
<v Speaker 2>in Rambam's view, Well, that's not fair either. In his

484
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:42.599
<v Speaker 2>discussion of the Messiah at the end of the Missionatah,

485
00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:46.359
<v Speaker 2>he makes the following surprising claim, which was by the

486
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:50.839
<v Speaker 2>way censored for most traditional texts because people couldn't handle it.

487
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:57.599
<v Speaker 2>He says that the job of the Christians is to

488
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:03.640
<v Speaker 2>teach the world very notions of in his eyes, quasi monotheism,

489
00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:05.960
<v Speaker 2>but the idea that there are commandments and stuff like that.

490
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.559
<v Speaker 2>The job of the Muslims is to teach the world monotheism,

491
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to make it possible for a Messianic process to take place.

492
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:20.279
<v Speaker 2>In other words, in his view, even though he thought

493
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:24.279
<v Speaker 2>that Christianity was a form of tritheism and of idolatry,

494
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:28.480
<v Speaker 2>but he thought that Christianity and Islam had a messianic role,

495
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:31.839
<v Speaker 2>and that role was to in effect monotheia is the

496
00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:35.359
<v Speaker 2>world so that the Messiah could come. Like I said

497
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:37.799
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning of our discussion, Rambom doesn't believe in

498
00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:43.440
<v Speaker 2>God giving out gifts or toys. The Messiah will come

499
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:45.480
<v Speaker 2>when the world is ready for the Messiah to come.

500
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 2>God doesn't send the Messiah. We have to earn the

501
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.200
<v Speaker 2>coming of the Messiah. We have to create a world

502
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.880
<v Speaker 2>in which the Messiah can function. So, in effect, if

503
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.559
<v Speaker 2>I'm right about that, and I am, but I am

504
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:04.240
<v Speaker 2>right about that, you can't He says, you need the

505
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Christians and the Muslims to make your world a place

506
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:09.680
<v Speaker 2>in which the Messiah can function, because the Messiah is

507
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:11.680
<v Speaker 2>also a job for Ramba is to teach the whole

508
00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:17.240
<v Speaker 2>world Judaism. So I guess that's the best I can

509
00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:19.720
<v Speaker 2>do in answering your very challenging question, why are there

510
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:21.799
<v Speaker 2>so many beetles, I mean so many gentiles?

511
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:26.119
<v Speaker 1>Right? Well? In which case that that leads to another question,

512
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:29.119
<v Speaker 1>which I you know, which is the flip side of this,

513
00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.359
<v Speaker 1>which is then, well, what is the role of the Jews?

514
00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:36.200
<v Speaker 1>In other words, or put it put it most extinctly,

515
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:38.519
<v Speaker 1>what is special about the Jews in this world view? Again,

516
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:40.920
<v Speaker 1>in the Halavii world you it's easy to see what'special

517
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:43.599
<v Speaker 1>about the Jews. They have something inherent, a part of

518
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:47.359
<v Speaker 1>the soul or something like that, which is which is

519
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 1>capable of some kind of ultimate connection to the devine

520
00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:51.839
<v Speaker 1>therefore Jews alone can have prophecy, ett et cetera. There's

521
00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:55.119
<v Speaker 1>it's easy in that world view to see what is

522
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:57.480
<v Speaker 1>special about the Jews and why. But if again, my

523
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.720
<v Speaker 1>money is a universalist, then what is then? I suppose

524
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:04.279
<v Speaker 1>the Jews are what I possessive possession of special doctrines

525
00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:06.880
<v Speaker 1>or special practices that are supposed to be told you,

526
00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:09.039
<v Speaker 1>what do they have that is different?

527
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:13.160
<v Speaker 2>First of all, there's nothing special about the Jews. Let's

528
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.880
<v Speaker 2>be rare, okay. Jews are human beings. Gentiles are human beings.

529
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:21.160
<v Speaker 2>They share that one hundred percent. What's special about Judaism

530
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:29.440
<v Speaker 2>is that teaches the truth, whereas Islam teaches close to

531
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:31.799
<v Speaker 2>the truth. Christianity teaches a little bit further away from

532
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:37.279
<v Speaker 2>the truth, but they don't teach the full truth of monotheism,

533
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:41.559
<v Speaker 2>of fulfillment to the commandments that make a community a

534
00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:49.119
<v Speaker 2>community holy by virtue of its being just. The Jews

535
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:53.759
<v Speaker 2>are not wholly in any kind of inherent sense. People

536
00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:57.880
<v Speaker 2>who behave correctly, who behave in fulfillment to the commandments

537
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:01.680
<v Speaker 2>which create a holy humunity, become a holy community which

538
00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:06.759
<v Speaker 2>is expressed by its behavior, not by its essence. My friend,

539
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.679
<v Speaker 2>Professor Danny Lasker likes to point out that the old days,

540
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:14.960
<v Speaker 2>before you were born, we used to talk about IBM

541
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:18.800
<v Speaker 2>personal computers and clones of IBM personal computers. You may

542
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:19.559
<v Speaker 2>have heard about that.

543
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:22.280
<v Speaker 1>I think we study a history of science or something like.

544
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>That, right, And the difference between them was that the

545
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:28.920
<v Speaker 2>IBM computer's hardware was considered to be better because both

546
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:32.000
<v Speaker 2>the IBM computer and the other and the clones worked

547
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:35.400
<v Speaker 2>on the same same programs, but the hardware was considered

548
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 2>to be better. So if you could afford, you bought

549
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:41.320
<v Speaker 2>an IBM PC. According to Judah Levian people like him,

550
00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:45.800
<v Speaker 2>the difference between dw and Gentiles and the hardware. According

551
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:48.440
<v Speaker 2>to Ram, the difference Drew and Gentiles and the software.

552
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Like Danny says, in the in the programs they run,

553
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:55.599
<v Speaker 2>so to speak, and programs can be changed. That's why

554
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:59.280
<v Speaker 2>for rambamb conversion, he's serious about it. Obviously, he's serious

555
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:04.599
<v Speaker 2>about everything. Is not a talent, not an issue. He

556
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:08.400
<v Speaker 2>has a very famous letter to a man named Ovaja

557
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:12.960
<v Speaker 2>who became a convert in the Muslim world and was

558
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:17.360
<v Speaker 2>offended by things that his rabbi told him. So he

559
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:21.280
<v Speaker 2>asked rambab Rama, first of all, said nasty things about

560
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.239
<v Speaker 2>the rabbi and then said, look, the bottom line is

561
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:28.679
<v Speaker 2>you have to understand we born Jews are descended or connected.

562
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:33.639
<v Speaker 2>Our yukis, our connection is to Abraia Mazagan Jacob, your yukis,

563
00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:37.960
<v Speaker 2>your connection is to God Almighty. You know you're more

564
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:41.119
<v Speaker 2>of a jewo than we are. Also, we're Jewish. This

565
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.000
<v Speaker 2>arma doesn't say I'm adding it. We're Jewish because we

566
00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:48.760
<v Speaker 2>were born Jews. You chose it. Nowadays the expression is

567
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:51.280
<v Speaker 2>Jews by choice. Clearly, from this it turns out that

568
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Rama had a great deal admiration for Jews, but whereas

569
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:59.239
<v Speaker 2>al Aby would accept them. But there was always this asterisk.

570
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, So we before you went down the path

571
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:09.199
<v Speaker 1>of my monetizing hallev and now I want to ask

572
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:12.880
<v Speaker 1>about the possibility of halleviizing my monodies in the sense,

573
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.719
<v Speaker 1>now if my monodies does have this this basic theory

574
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.599
<v Speaker 1>of a universal general knowledge and truth, and that the

575
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:25.239
<v Speaker 1>Jews specialness is derivative of the fact that they have

576
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.639
<v Speaker 1>this truth and they know this truth in this but

577
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.719
<v Speaker 1>to teach this truth, et cetera. So well, firstly, are

578
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.199
<v Speaker 1>there limits to my monodes universalism? In other words, are

579
00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:36.400
<v Speaker 1>there elements of his thought that don't quite fit with this,

580
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:39.760
<v Speaker 1>or or let's say, inconvenience to your overall reading of him,

581
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:40.400
<v Speaker 1>let's start with that.

582
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, one of them is very unfortunate. He was an

583
00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:52.159
<v Speaker 2>unbelievably harsh intellectual elitist. So my moldy is as a

584
00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:55.679
<v Speaker 2>universalist in the sense that everybody is in the club

585
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:59.760
<v Speaker 2>as long as they have a Harvard PhDe. But if

586
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.800
<v Speaker 2>they don't have that, they haven't achieved that level of

587
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:08.280
<v Speaker 2>intellectual success, then they're simply not in the club. They're

588
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:11.400
<v Speaker 2>barely Humian. This is you know, this is not a

589
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:15.719
<v Speaker 2>Jewish position. Brom Bomb is here, he's basically talking Aristotle

590
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 2>or Aristotle as he understood him. Look, it makes sense.

591
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:24.199
<v Speaker 2>Aristotle defines human beings as rational animals. Right, if you're

592
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:29.960
<v Speaker 2>not rational, you're just an animal. So that's brom Baum's view,

593
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.480
<v Speaker 2>and that's, you know, not not the view of the

594
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:35.360
<v Speaker 2>traditions of Judaism. But that's one way in which his

595
00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:41.800
<v Speaker 2>universalism is. Uh is always say unfortunate, how you would

596
00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:45.400
<v Speaker 2>not be guilty of that? Since all the Jews have

597
00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:53.199
<v Speaker 2>this inner in jan Luis Elahi attempt his quality and

598
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:57.400
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter how smart or and how educated you are. Now.

599
00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:02.119
<v Speaker 2>On the other hand, I have proven to my total

600
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:06.199
<v Speaker 2>satisfaction that ram Bump thought that women were also human

601
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:10.280
<v Speaker 2>beings and the Middle Ages, that was a striking claim.

602
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:12.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was going to say that that's not quite

603
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:12.960
<v Speaker 1>as common as it sounds.

604
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:15.360
<v Speaker 2>No, right, it's very much not as common as it sounds.

605
00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:18.679
<v Speaker 2>So there's like that's a kind of universalism. Also, he

606
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:23.480
<v Speaker 2>wasn't a feminist in our terms. He was, like might say,

607
00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:27.400
<v Speaker 2>a philosophical feminist, not a sociological feminist. But in his

608
00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:30.280
<v Speaker 2>day and age it was very unusual. He and Varois

609
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.320
<v Speaker 2>had been rushed were basically the only two people in

610
00:38:33.320 --> 00:38:36.360
<v Speaker 2>the Middle Ages. I'm exaggerating, but there were very few

611
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:39.840
<v Speaker 2>people actually agreed with this view that women are created

612
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:43.119
<v Speaker 2>in the needs of God fully my friend ral Bog,

613
00:38:43.239 --> 00:38:45.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean even been gershow in twelve eight to thirteen

614
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:50.800
<v Speaker 2>forty four it says explicitly that women are like monkeys.

615
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:52.360
<v Speaker 2>They look like human beings, but they don't have the

616
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:58.079
<v Speaker 2>intellectual abilities. That's this is a more standard view. So

617
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:00.440
<v Speaker 2>that's another version of what I would call my monitors

618
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:04.000
<v Speaker 2>and universalism. Can I continue on this riff?

619
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

620
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Please? Another way of looking at it is the laws

621
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:17.840
<v Speaker 2>of Judaism for my monodes halaka Jewish law is not

622
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.079
<v Speaker 2>a is not a divine need meets Gomar says, God

623
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:25.159
<v Speaker 2>needs these commandments, no, their challenges to behave in a

624
00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:29.280
<v Speaker 2>particular fashion, and if you do that, you're so to speak,

625
00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:32.199
<v Speaker 2>in the in the Jewish club. But there are also

626
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.480
<v Speaker 2>seven laws for gentiles to obey, and then you're a

627
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:38.920
<v Speaker 2>very good gentile. It's not as if there's nothing gentiles

628
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:41.559
<v Speaker 2>can do to achieve a share of the world to come.

629
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 2>That's an important point. The world to come is restricted

630
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.559
<v Speaker 2>for Rambam, is restricted to people who've gotten into the club,

631
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.760
<v Speaker 2>which means JJ, after one hundred and twenty years, you

632
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.199
<v Speaker 2>and I are going to be very lonely there.

633
00:39:57.440 --> 00:39:59.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, if we could, you know, we'll just have

634
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:04.079
<v Speaker 1>a never ending us on this particular.

635
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:08.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it'll be fine, you know, it's not. There are

636
00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:12.800
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of jokes about that. The sky dies and

637
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.599
<v Speaker 2>it's being shown around heaven and they go past a

638
00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:20.239
<v Speaker 2>big corridor and I'm not hope I don't offend anybody.

639
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:23.239
<v Speaker 2>And as Saint Peter so To speaks, walking down the road,

640
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:25.760
<v Speaker 2>they passed the door and say, Peter says, should be

641
00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:28.239
<v Speaker 2>quiet here, and the guy says, why do you have

642
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:30.119
<v Speaker 2>to be quiet? He says, this is the Mormon heaven.

643
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:31.199
<v Speaker 2>They think they're alone here.

644
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.000
<v Speaker 1>You could substitute Mormon there. For for many faith traditions,

645
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.440
<v Speaker 1>it's not a moment specific joke.

646
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:44.920
<v Speaker 2>This is the philosophers. They think they're all in here, right.

647
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:48.239
<v Speaker 1>So, So this is interesting because when one says the

648
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:53.119
<v Speaker 1>word universalism, one brings to mind a more tolerant, expansive,

649
00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:58.559
<v Speaker 1>inclusive form, a worldview in which you know, everyone has

650
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:00.519
<v Speaker 1>a place, everyone has a roll, et cetera. Whereas one

651
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:02.639
<v Speaker 1>of the interesting things about my Monestine system is as

652
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:05.880
<v Speaker 1>you've presented it is that while it is more open

653
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:09.840
<v Speaker 1>and expansive towards non Jews who have correct philosophical opinions,

654
00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:15.039
<v Speaker 1>it is distinctly unfriendly for Jews who have incorrect philosophical opinions,

655
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 1>even if they are simply mistaken.

656
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:20.760
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, that's another point that is where Ramam is simply wrong.

657
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:29.719
<v Speaker 2>Jewish law allows for making mistakes. You know, you, I

658
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.760
<v Speaker 2>don't know whether you turn out a light on the

659
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Sabbath or you either cheezburger by accident, whatever you do,

660
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh grase, you made a mistake, so there are ways

661
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:43.199
<v Speaker 2>to fix it. You repent, but if you have a

662
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:47.519
<v Speaker 2>mistake about the nature of God, it's unfixable unless you retrain.

663
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:54.159
<v Speaker 2>In other words, there's no inadvertence in theology. For Ramam

664
00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.920
<v Speaker 2>there is anadvertence in Jewish Lawkaga Hebrew. There is no

665
00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:04.280
<v Speaker 2>room for that in theology. That's not a Jewish view

666
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:08.599
<v Speaker 2>as far as I'm concerned. So this is another place

667
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:14.159
<v Speaker 2>where philosophy is I think sort of taken has influenced

668
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:18.960
<v Speaker 2>him too much, But he's being consistent. You know that

669
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:23.719
<v Speaker 2>heaven is for rational animals. If you're not rational, which

670
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:26.440
<v Speaker 2>left his animal now you should be.

671
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:29.880
<v Speaker 1>It's not just rationalism, that's the most interesting thing about.

672
00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:35.079
<v Speaker 1>It's merely that you exercised your irrational faculties and came

673
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:37.840
<v Speaker 1>to some sort of inclusion. For him, the conclusions he

674
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:42.679
<v Speaker 1>comes to are in his mind so inescapable that if

675
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.079
<v Speaker 1>you have not come to them, so those very specific conclusions,

676
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:45.559
<v Speaker 1>then you have.

677
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.159
<v Speaker 2>Not used your mind properly.

678
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, it is impossible to be a good philosopher

679
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:53.440
<v Speaker 1>and comes to different conclusions than him.

680
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:57.239
<v Speaker 2>One hundred percent. Rambaum would not admit that Heydergirl was

681
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:58.039
<v Speaker 2>a good philosopher.

682
00:42:58.079 --> 00:42:59.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure I had to go return the favor.

683
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.679
<v Speaker 2>Fine, But but Heidger couldn't say to Rombaum that he

684
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:06.679
<v Speaker 2>was a lot, So there's no I mean, ram he

685
00:43:06.719 --> 00:43:09.920
<v Speaker 2>was not alone in this. You know, Perfection is not

686
00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:13.519
<v Speaker 2>a salami you can slice all into various parts. A

687
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:18.159
<v Speaker 2>perfect human being is perfect morally, and that's very important

688
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:20.679
<v Speaker 2>for Ramam. You can't become a philosopher if you're immral,

689
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:26.280
<v Speaker 2>and in his eyes, the best way to be moral

690
00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:28.800
<v Speaker 2>is to fulfill the Jewish law. It's not the only way,

691
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.360
<v Speaker 2>but it's the best way. And for Jews it's an

692
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:36.960
<v Speaker 2>obli obligatory thing. A question which he never addresses and

693
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.960
<v Speaker 2>for which I have no idea how he would handle it. Is,

694
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.239
<v Speaker 2>what do you do about a person born in a

695
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Jewish Jew, born Jew who becomes a saintly perfected philosopher

696
00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:58.880
<v Speaker 2>but doesn't fulfill the commandments? Rambaum, the rabbi would not

697
00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:02.960
<v Speaker 2>want to admit this guy to heaven. Rambam the philosopher

698
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:04.159
<v Speaker 2>has no way to keep him out.

699
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:09.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, the rumbum could simply reject the possibility, at least

700
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:11.360
<v Speaker 1>the theory to reject the possibility that someone could become

701
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:13.679
<v Speaker 1>a puffet philosopher without keeping the commandments, at least for

702
00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:14.920
<v Speaker 1>a Jew. But the problem is.

703
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:19.519
<v Speaker 2>That how is that possible? How do you you know? Aristotle,

704
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.239
<v Speaker 2>he says, reached the level of perfection just before prophecy.

705
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:27.480
<v Speaker 2>He says that explicitly in his own language and a

706
00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:31.519
<v Speaker 2>letter to his translator Samuel Libinjimmin. So he clearly thought

707
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:34.000
<v Speaker 2>they were gentiles who could achieve. I mean, he knew them,

708
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:38.199
<v Speaker 2>He had friends there. He had a wide circle of

709
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Muslim friends with whom he corresponded and who helped him out,

710
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:46.599
<v Speaker 2>who protected him. And he didn't live like a He

711
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:49.599
<v Speaker 2>didn't live in the world where only people spoke yidish.

712
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:53.800
<v Speaker 2>Far from it.

713
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:57.039
<v Speaker 1>Fair enough, Now, let me ask another question, which is

714
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:02.440
<v Speaker 1>wasn't Rumbum entirely system throughout his life and suddenly within

715
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.000
<v Speaker 1>his own the boundaries that he himself set out? In

716
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:07.239
<v Speaker 1>other words, did agree with himself?

717
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:07.480
<v Speaker 2>No?

718
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:12.159
<v Speaker 1>Or put another way? Could my money, sorry, could rum

719
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:14.400
<v Speaker 1>up gains my money just heaven or vices? I can't

720
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.480
<v Speaker 1>remember tell you how you titled it.

721
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:17.639
<v Speaker 2>I read an article with that title once.

722
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.679
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that's what I've referred to it. I just kind

723
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:23.400
<v Speaker 1>of which way around it was. But did the rum

724
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:28.719
<v Speaker 1>of himself stand up to his own very stringent categories.

725
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:34.679
<v Speaker 2>I would like to think so, but like everybody else,

726
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:38.559
<v Speaker 2>Rama was a complicated person. Now, if he took his

727
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:43.679
<v Speaker 2>own views about intellectual sophistication seriously, he would have been

728
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:50.400
<v Speaker 2>a miserable human being to the unsophisticated, to the irrational. Yeah,

729
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:52.440
<v Speaker 2>we have lots of evidence that he took his job

730
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:57.760
<v Speaker 2>as a kumul rabbi as a judge seriously. And for example,

731
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:00.360
<v Speaker 2>he first comes to our notice in letters that he

732
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:05.159
<v Speaker 2>wrote this is so appropriate nowadays. It's so sad, trying

733
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:09.639
<v Speaker 2>to raise money to free hostages. That's our first evidence

734
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.400
<v Speaker 2>of Rombaum's public behavior. We have letters in the kiro

735
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:18.239
<v Speaker 2>Genese of some guy writing home that he went to

736
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:21.039
<v Speaker 2>visit the Rombam to ask what we would call in

737
00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:24.039
<v Speaker 2>the innershek klutz contra a stupid question. I don't remember

738
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:25.840
<v Speaker 2>what the question was. We asked a really dumb question.

739
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:28.760
<v Speaker 2>And he went there with his little boy. So he writes,

740
00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:32.039
<v Speaker 2>I was taking into see the great rabby Moses, and

741
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I told him my question. He said, wait before I

742
00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:36.000
<v Speaker 2>answer your question, how was the little boy? He gave

743
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:39.320
<v Speaker 2>him some lemon cookies, and then he answered my question

744
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:41.119
<v Speaker 2>with great deal of respect and sent me on my

745
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:45.679
<v Speaker 2>happy way. So I mean that guy obviously an idiot.

746
00:46:46.599 --> 00:46:52.800
<v Speaker 2>But Rambaum certainly acted according to the quality criteria of

747
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.079
<v Speaker 2>noblesse obliges. He knew that he was of the nobility,

748
00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:01.880
<v Speaker 2>but that obligated him in certain forms of behavior, so

749
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.679
<v Speaker 2>he also he was If he was consistent, he would

750
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:07.440
<v Speaker 2>not have been a communal rabbi. He would not have

751
00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:09.719
<v Speaker 2>been a judge. He would not have led the Jewish community.

752
00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:12.239
<v Speaker 2>He would have just spent his life in the uh

753
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:17.199
<v Speaker 2>in the Cairo Palace there with the what's his name,

754
00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Saladin's nephew was running things and basically spent his time

755
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:27.000
<v Speaker 2>in their version of Widener Library. But no, he was

756
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:30.119
<v Speaker 2>deeply involved in the community, and he writes in the

757
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:33.000
<v Speaker 2>famous letter to samely been Jimming what his daily life

758
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:37.239
<v Speaker 2>was like and how much energy invested in running things

759
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:40.519
<v Speaker 2>in the community. As my wife likes to say, if

760
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:42.360
<v Speaker 2>she reminds me before I teach a course or a

761
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.480
<v Speaker 2>class in rama, she always says, remember to remind them

762
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:49.800
<v Speaker 2>that Rabbam was also a rabbi, and.

763
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:53.800
<v Speaker 1>He was the perpetual temptation of philosophy professors to forget

764
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:56.519
<v Speaker 1>that convenient, that important fact exactly.

765
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:59.880
<v Speaker 2>My colleagues very often forget that he was also a rabbi.

766
00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:03.760
<v Speaker 2>So so that's the sense in which he was not

767
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:07.119
<v Speaker 2>really consistent with his own theories. And remember when he

768
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:11.960
<v Speaker 2>committed time to the Jewish community, he was harming himself

769
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:15.800
<v Speaker 2>because his understanding of the world to come and you

770
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:19.639
<v Speaker 2>earned what you earned there is what you learned here.

771
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:24.960
<v Speaker 2>So if he spent one minute less on his philosophical meditation,

772
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:30.639
<v Speaker 2>he was harming his eternal life right the set in

773
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:36.440
<v Speaker 2>the theory. So so he's a complicated He was also, Look,

774
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:40.880
<v Speaker 2>he was very proud of his son Abraham, a very

775
00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:45.239
<v Speaker 2>proud father, and we have letters to that effect as well.

776
00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:49.119
<v Speaker 2>This way, he was a proud father. But he never

777
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:50.079
<v Speaker 2>mentioned his wife.

778
00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:52.960
<v Speaker 1>You must have had a wife, I mean, I don't

779
00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.960
<v Speaker 1>think it was the style in those days, tom among.

780
00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:58.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, and we know who his fall in law was.

781
00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:00.000
<v Speaker 2>We have no idea who his wife was.

782
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:03.519
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to move a little bit too to maybe

783
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:08.360
<v Speaker 1>other parts of the medieval Jewish philosophical world and simply

784
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:13.280
<v Speaker 1>ask whether those who out did Halevi on the particular

785
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:16.320
<v Speaker 1>side or out did my monoties on the universalist side,

786
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:18.880
<v Speaker 1>and one of you set up these two major thinkers

787
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:21.400
<v Speaker 1>as of good I don't know archetypes is the right word,

788
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:24.639
<v Speaker 1>but but things who exemplify these two strains of thought.

789
00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:27.000
<v Speaker 1>But you know neither of them.

790
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:32.360
<v Speaker 2>It's well, I our mutual friend Marty Miller, who by

791
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:35.159
<v Speaker 2>the way, just got an article accepted to HTR.

792
00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:39.360
<v Speaker 1>The ultimate achievement, I should think absolutely uh.

793
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:42.840
<v Speaker 2>He has written a lot about the picture of gentiles

794
00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:50.480
<v Speaker 2>and capitalistic in Zohar literature, and it is a complicated book.

795
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.960
<v Speaker 2>You can't you can't still to speak, says, But there

796
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:59.199
<v Speaker 2>are passages in the Zor which say that gentiles are

797
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:03.760
<v Speaker 2>born with defective souls and there's nothing that can be

798
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.360
<v Speaker 2>fixed about that. That's the that's that's the nature of

799
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.920
<v Speaker 2>being a gentile. Is your soul comes from the realms

800
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:16.000
<v Speaker 2>of impurity. And that's way beyond anything Hale ever had

801
00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:22.599
<v Speaker 2>nightmares about. So and there's many such passages in UH

802
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:25.960
<v Speaker 2>in cabalistic literature. Not only there are also other aspects

803
00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:30.079
<v Speaker 2>of cowbola that make it sound almost my monody in

804
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:34.440
<v Speaker 2>but the the part that got accepted by the Jewish

805
00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:38.599
<v Speaker 2>people is largely that aspect of it. As to your

806
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:41.920
<v Speaker 2>other question, where there are more more my monornity and

807
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:42.639
<v Speaker 2>than my moderity.

808
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:46.519
<v Speaker 1>Is my mind us within h Yeah.

809
00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. In other words, there are people like

810
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:53.679
<v Speaker 2>motion our Boni, who uh was a I don't know

811
00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:56.840
<v Speaker 2>what he thought about universalism. He was he thought that

812
00:50:57.519 --> 00:51:01.079
<v Speaker 2>rob Bum held the world was uncreated, for example, which

813
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:04.000
<v Speaker 2>made his Drama was not also a rabbi, that's for sure.

814
00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:08.079
<v Speaker 2>So there were certainly people who Look, why was this

815
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:11.679
<v Speaker 2>such a huge debate about philosophy in general and Ramam

816
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:16.079
<v Speaker 2>in particular after his death. Look, he died in twelve

817
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:20.039
<v Speaker 2>oh four, and soon thereafter the Jewish world, at least

818
00:51:20.679 --> 00:51:23.480
<v Speaker 2>first of all the jew the world in the Middle

819
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:26.079
<v Speaker 2>East was torn over the question did he believe in resurrection?

820
00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:30.840
<v Speaker 2>But then the world of Europe was torn over the

821
00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:34.760
<v Speaker 2>questions can you study him at all? Remember his books

822
00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:38.159
<v Speaker 2>were burned, the whole question about who did it and why?

823
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:41.559
<v Speaker 2>But it happened. There were people who were very sensitive

824
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:44.679
<v Speaker 2>to the aspects of my monody and thought, which made

825
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:50.119
<v Speaker 2>it uncomfortable for them. One example, which I think would

826
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:54.719
<v Speaker 2>be helpful. Whereas Rama never says this explicitly, he clearly held,

827
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:59.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm convinced of this that in order to be a

828
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:02.400
<v Speaker 2>good Jew, you had to be a scientist. In his

829
00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:06.480
<v Speaker 2>terms of science, the secrets of the Torah were physics

830
00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:10.599
<v Speaker 2>and metaphysics. And in order to love God, he says

831
00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:15.519
<v Speaker 2>that this He says explicitly in the first two paragraphs

832
00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:18.880
<v Speaker 2>of the second chapter of Mission of Torah the Laws

833
00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:22.840
<v Speaker 2>Foundations of the Torah, Chapter two, that in order to

834
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:26.679
<v Speaker 2>love God, you have to study God's works. Now, Bob

835
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:31.519
<v Speaker 2>makes the point very helpfully. In Exodus thirty two, God

836
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:34.039
<v Speaker 2>says to Moses, I'm sick and tired of these Jewish people.

837
00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Let's wipe them out and start the whole story over

838
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:40.320
<v Speaker 2>again from you. Your descendants will be the new Jewish people,

839
00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:43.920
<v Speaker 2>which is sort of funny because moses descendants are never mentioned,

840
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:47.719
<v Speaker 2>but leave that aside. And so Moses says, no, if

841
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:53.079
<v Speaker 2>you're going to destroy the Jewish people, Mia, wipe me

842
00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:58.000
<v Speaker 2>erased me from the book that you wrote. So Bob says, well,

843
00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:01.920
<v Speaker 2>what book could write. Most see that and think it

844
00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:05.519
<v Speaker 2>means that Torah. No, Robot says, it means kill me,

845
00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:09.880
<v Speaker 2>remove me from the world that you made. The world

846
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:12.559
<v Speaker 2>that you made is the is the book that God wrote.

847
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:16.960
<v Speaker 2>This became a motif later on in the just before

848
00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:18.960
<v Speaker 2>the Enlightenment, a lot of people talked about God as

849
00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:23.679
<v Speaker 2>the author of the universe. So here we see robot

850
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:26.400
<v Speaker 2>basically adopting a mind and in view, to be a

851
00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:32.199
<v Speaker 2>good Jew, you have to keep the commandments, et cetera,

852
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:36.960
<v Speaker 2>and study the book that God wrote. There are two

853
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:39.159
<v Speaker 2>bad God wrote two books. I think rob Bam held

854
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:44.159
<v Speaker 2>us clearly, Torah and science. Now there are a lot

855
00:53:44.199 --> 00:53:49.239
<v Speaker 2>of Jews then and today who would tell me you

856
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:53.880
<v Speaker 2>can't possibly believe that, And that's why some of them said,

857
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:57.840
<v Speaker 2>don't study Rambam. I mean to this very day. I

858
00:53:57.920 --> 00:53:59.599
<v Speaker 2>used to visit Lakewood quite often. I have a lot

859
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:02.360
<v Speaker 2>of family the Liquid New Jersey. It's a you're it's

860
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:04.960
<v Speaker 2>just scheduled from Europe. That stills somehow managed to get

861
00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:06.760
<v Speaker 2>to the to the.

862
00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:09.280
<v Speaker 1>East, pointed chet Settle.

863
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:13.480
<v Speaker 2>These days, yeah, now it's really yes, they it used

864
00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:17.079
<v Speaker 2>to be a lot less nicely appointed. But in any event,

865
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:20.199
<v Speaker 2>I went into the very big Jewish bookstore they're looking

866
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:23.679
<v Speaker 2>for asked where they have the guide copies of the

867
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:25.639
<v Speaker 2>Guide of the perplex They sent me to it like

868
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:33.440
<v Speaker 2>a side aspect, aside whatever, And they're in a section

869
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:38.639
<v Speaker 2>called Kabbala Jewish bitsticism. That was the only copy of

870
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:43.159
<v Speaker 2>the Guide in the perplex and now Kabala in the

871
00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:48.239
<v Speaker 2>Shiva world is not something you study. The Ashkenazi chival world,

872
00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:53.199
<v Speaker 2>the smartishchival world. It is certainly much more widely studied.

873
00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:56.360
<v Speaker 2>So clearly they thought that it wears on the other

874
00:54:56.440 --> 00:54:59.079
<v Speaker 2>side of the room. There were like twenty five different

875
00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:02.760
<v Speaker 2>editions of the mission Torah. Do you go into any

876
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:05.719
<v Speaker 2>standard you shiver in the world today, any standard Ashkenazi,

877
00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:09.079
<v Speaker 2>non Zionist y Shiva, and there'll be the bit be

878
00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:11.000
<v Speaker 2>drash will be full of copies of the Mission of

879
00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Toura and the commentaries on it, and the commentaries on

880
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:16.800
<v Speaker 2>the commentaries on the commentaries on it. You will never

881
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:21.000
<v Speaker 2>find the Guide of the perplexed. Whereas you go into

882
00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:24.360
<v Speaker 2>a Zionist y Shiva here in Israel and extent in

883
00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the United States, you'll find lots of copies of Alavi

884
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:32.199
<v Speaker 2>the Kuzari, and also a few rumbums, a few guys

885
00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:37.199
<v Speaker 2>of the perplexed. So, yeah, how did I get onto that?

886
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:40.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, it was it was going down various lines of

887
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:43.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, are there more mimonode than my Monotheans? And

888
00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:45.760
<v Speaker 1>and and why it was the truth is that Rambam's

889
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:49.159
<v Speaker 1>reception is an important is important part of this part

890
00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:51.840
<v Speaker 1>of the story, because, of course, in many ways the

891
00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Rumbam does win out in the sense that his works,

892
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:58.119
<v Speaker 1>especially the Missister, are eventually given private place on the

893
00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:01.440
<v Speaker 1>Jewish bookshelf. But do you think, let me ask you,

894
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:04.360
<v Speaker 1>are there any aspects of my monody and universalism that

895
00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:06.559
<v Speaker 1>get adopted in later generations? Because you seem to be

896
00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:09.039
<v Speaker 1>You've implied several times your opinion is that essentially the

897
00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Haleve view one out. And I want to ask him,

898
00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:14.719
<v Speaker 1>is that is that the case? Is that was the

899
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:18.760
<v Speaker 1>victory total and comprehensive? Or are there aspects of run

900
00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:23.480
<v Speaker 1>mother's universalism which which sort of ends it into the mainstream.

901
00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:28.440
<v Speaker 2>I would be happier if I could say, yes, Look,

902
00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:35.880
<v Speaker 2>there are obviously people who agree with me. There may

903
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:37.519
<v Speaker 2>be only ten of the whole world, but there are

904
00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:43.639
<v Speaker 2>those ten ominion more. But uh by and large, No,

905
00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean there are people like say Hermine Cohen, who

906
00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:57.719
<v Speaker 2>certainly appreciated my monorites, but was not Sabbath observant. True

907
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:02.920
<v Speaker 2>his my minorities. He was very Jewish Harmon gohn Ah,

908
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:06.199
<v Speaker 2>but he grew up in an observant tone, but he

909
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:09.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't keep it, so he was not. He was certainly

910
00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:12.480
<v Speaker 2>of my monor d and universalists, but not the kind

911
00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:20.639
<v Speaker 2>of universalists my Monotyes himself, would have preferred. Uh I

912
00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:26.440
<v Speaker 2>met a loss to think of. Look, his influence was vast.

913
00:57:28.599 --> 00:57:32.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm right now writing an article about why while there

914
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:35.519
<v Speaker 2>are many my Monoradeans today, there are no Gersonadeans.

915
00:57:36.840 --> 00:57:39.440
<v Speaker 1>What would characterize a gus D in this sense.

916
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:47.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, anyone who takes them seriously beyond you know, every people. Look,

917
00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:52.519
<v Speaker 2>I just a new book came out. I think it's

918
00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:56.440
<v Speaker 2>called The Rootlets Companion to Jewish Philosophy. I don't know exactly.

919
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:00.639
<v Speaker 2>I have an article there where try with our friend

920
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:04.679
<v Speaker 2>Marty Miller, So I sort of skimmed the whole book.

921
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Rama was mentioned, I know, let's say it, almost every

922
00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:15.760
<v Speaker 2>other article. There are thirty or forty articles there. So

923
00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:20.440
<v Speaker 2>in that sense, his impact, his philosophical impact remains huge.

924
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:26.039
<v Speaker 2>Or thirty forty years ago, Arthur A. Cohen and Paul

925
00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Mendis Floor put out a book of essays on Jewish theology.

926
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:32.079
<v Speaker 2>I forget what it was called, And actually I read

927
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:33.480
<v Speaker 2>the whole book. You know, one of the few people

928
00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:38.800
<v Speaker 2>in the world who did it my sympathy and there

929
00:58:39.119 --> 00:58:44.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, each the articles on all kinds of subjects, death, life, love, purity, whatever,

930
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:49.000
<v Speaker 2>almost every single article says my monety says. That's how

931
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:52.440
<v Speaker 2>they start. And one of the reasons is is very important.

932
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Another reason is that he had seems to say about

933
00:58:55.000 --> 00:59:00.960
<v Speaker 2>every topic, but I would say, here, I think I'm

934
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:05.320
<v Speaker 2>on firm ground. Rambam is one of those few people

935
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.719
<v Speaker 2>who if he held a position, that position thereby becomes

936
00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:17.880
<v Speaker 2>jewishly legitimate. Interesting, you cannot take a sentence a position

937
00:59:17.960 --> 00:59:20.639
<v Speaker 2>held by Rambam and say that it is jewishly illegitimate,

938
00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:25.880
<v Speaker 2>which is why so many people have to interpret him

939
00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:28.320
<v Speaker 2>to say things he didn't say. May I tell you

940
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:30.679
<v Speaker 2>one story along those lines, please please?

941
00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:31.039
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

942
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Many years ago I was teaching at the University of Kaife,

943
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:36.480
<v Speaker 2>of course on Rambam. We were reading the chapters in

944
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:39.639
<v Speaker 2>the Guide of the Rebels to deal with Providence, and

945
00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:42.079
<v Speaker 2>in my class was a woman who was one of

946
00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:45.880
<v Speaker 2>the first people who became a calal employer in the

947
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:48.719
<v Speaker 2>rabbinic courts. It was very unusual at the time. And

948
00:59:52.159 --> 00:59:54.639
<v Speaker 2>to end it, Rabanite and her husband was a Diana

949
00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:59.280
<v Speaker 2>reminted court judge. So I met him once at some

950
00:59:59.400 --> 01:00:01.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of event in the city. I don't remember what

951
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:04.360
<v Speaker 2>it was, and he says in typical Rabbinic language, he says, hey,

952
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:10.840
<v Speaker 2>meaning me, because third person taught the Rabbani to my

953
01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:15.800
<v Speaker 2>wife that according to Rambam, divine providence doesn't extend to everybody.

954
01:00:16.639 --> 01:00:19.920
<v Speaker 2>And I said, that's true. And that's what he says

955
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:21.960
<v Speaker 2>in the seventeenth chapter of the third part of the

956
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:25.599
<v Speaker 2>Guy that the perplex and this guy, this guy, this

957
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:30.400
<v Speaker 2>rabbi says, well, there are three possibilities here. One is,

958
01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:35.239
<v Speaker 2>we all know that the Raman wrote his book in Arabic,

959
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:39.239
<v Speaker 2>and maybe this translation that you're using is simply wrong.

960
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:46.639
<v Speaker 2>The second possibility is perhaps people who were produced the

961
01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:52.480
<v Speaker 2>text garbled it. And a third possibility he says, of course,

962
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:54.239
<v Speaker 2>then he asks, He says, of course, I don't think

963
01:00:54.280 --> 01:00:57.320
<v Speaker 2>this is possible, but just fill up the picture. Maybe

964
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:02.079
<v Speaker 2>his honor naming me is wrong. Doesn't understand the text.

965
01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:07.960
<v Speaker 2>He couldn't handle what Rambam wrote black on white, right.

966
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:10.000
<v Speaker 1>He couldn't. He didn't want to add in the rather

967
01:01:10.119 --> 01:01:12.440
<v Speaker 1>obvious fourth possiblity, which is that he himself was wrong.

968
01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:17.199
<v Speaker 2>Exactly that couldn't be. Or briefly, a very good friend

969
01:01:17.199 --> 01:01:20.880
<v Speaker 2>of mine was teaching in a synagogue in a town

970
01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:23.960
<v Speaker 2>in New Jersey called dot Teck. He gave a hold

971
01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:25.880
<v Speaker 2>of me on the Sabbath. Here he gave a long

972
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:29.079
<v Speaker 2>talk about my monitory and universalism. And after the Sabbath,

973
01:01:29.079 --> 01:01:31.760
<v Speaker 2>the young man took him aside, and we say, in

974
01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:35.920
<v Speaker 2>the nick language hawk Demagini for an hour how the

975
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:38.199
<v Speaker 2>Rambamb could not possibly have held the views that this

976
01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:42.679
<v Speaker 2>guy attributed to him. And so my friend ripped out

977
01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:45.599
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of relevant texts to show them in The

978
01:01:45.679 --> 01:01:47.920
<v Speaker 2>man was himself the son of a of a Russian

979
01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:51.239
<v Speaker 2>ship at Yu himself will learned a Jew. So he

980
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:54.599
<v Speaker 2>finally had to admit, yes, that's what Rambam said. But

981
01:01:54.639 --> 01:02:00.800
<v Speaker 2>then he said, but so what we accept talvi not rombum.

982
01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:03.320
<v Speaker 2>At least he was willing to admit that's what Rambam said,

983
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:05.159
<v Speaker 2>but made a difference to him.

984
01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:08.159
<v Speaker 1>But here's the thing. But the very fact that he

985
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:11.800
<v Speaker 1>questioned about the Rumbam, and trying so hard to fight

986
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:14.800
<v Speaker 1>that the Rumbam said what he thought he said daily

987
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:19.440
<v Speaker 1>belies that idea that, oh, we don't hold the rubb no. Obviously,

988
01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:22.360
<v Speaker 1>my monodese is significant enough that they continue to be

989
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:25.920
<v Speaker 1>arguments to this day, debates on which you have participated in.

990
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:28.440
<v Speaker 1>What exactly my monodese said meant?

991
01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:30.679
<v Speaker 2>Like I said, he is so important that he can't

992
01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:35.760
<v Speaker 2>be ignored. He has to be I love this. The

993
01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:41.079
<v Speaker 2>story is told that when Shakespeare was first translated into Yiddish,

994
01:02:41.280 --> 01:02:43.280
<v Speaker 2>the title page says that you know, all the plays

995
01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:48.320
<v Speaker 2>William Shakespeare are tuched when far Bessert translated and improved

996
01:02:48.599 --> 01:02:51.599
<v Speaker 2>by the name of the translator. I must try to

997
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:53.840
<v Speaker 2>find out if that was actually true or simply an

998
01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:55.880
<v Speaker 2>urban myth. And I got all kinds of answers from

999
01:02:55.880 --> 01:02:57.880
<v Speaker 2>friends on the internet, so I'm saying, yes, we saw

1000
01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:00.480
<v Speaker 2>the book. I'm saying it's an urban myth. In any

1001
01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:03.519
<v Speaker 2>of ate. Rambam has been for thousand as well, since

1002
01:03:03.559 --> 01:03:07.760
<v Speaker 2>twelve o four, subjected to translated and improved over and

1003
01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:12.760
<v Speaker 2>over and over again. His text the Bistrata, has been rewritten.

1004
01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:19.239
<v Speaker 2>Various passages have been excised or simply changed a little bit.

1005
01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Doesn't take a lot of work to change them to

1006
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:25.480
<v Speaker 2>make them sound from more religious, which is why it's

1007
01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:32.199
<v Speaker 2>important to use a correct text, because very often his

1008
01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:35.960
<v Speaker 2>text has been subjected to for Titians for our bessert

1009
01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.960
<v Speaker 2>translated and improved.

1010
01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:44.199
<v Speaker 1>And see see the upshots of your answer seems to

1011
01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:46.840
<v Speaker 1>have been of the questions I asked how many minutes

1012
01:03:46.840 --> 01:03:51.719
<v Speaker 1>ago that indeed HALEEVI has won and the Rambamb you know,

1013
01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:54.440
<v Speaker 1>difficulty to amount or that he hasn't really enswered so

1014
01:03:54.519 --> 01:03:58.360
<v Speaker 1>much to the mainstream. Is that is that still the

1015
01:03:58.360 --> 01:04:03.039
<v Speaker 1>case today? Can you there shall we say Jewish thinkers

1016
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:05.880
<v Speaker 1>or streams of judas and today that you think accurately

1017
01:04:05.920 --> 01:04:10.599
<v Speaker 1>represent the Rombam's blend of universalism coupled with very strict

1018
01:04:10.599 --> 01:04:15.559
<v Speaker 1>adherence to the law, coupled with a philosophically minded pursuit

1019
01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:18.400
<v Speaker 1>of closest with God. Something like these various components that

1020
01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:22.239
<v Speaker 1>you've pointed out on my monety's position, do they simply

1021
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:23.039
<v Speaker 1>don't exist anymore?

1022
01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:29.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Well, look, Lord Rabbi Jonathan Sachs was not a

1023
01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:33.880
<v Speaker 2>specialist in Rambamb, but a very smart man, and he

1024
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:38.000
<v Speaker 2>was without constantly citing Rambam. He was very my manager.

1025
01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:44.559
<v Speaker 2>He was a rabbi, He was a chief rabbi, very

1026
01:04:44.599 --> 01:04:47.280
<v Speaker 2>concerned to divert himself to the needs of the Jewish

1027
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:57.239
<v Speaker 2>community and deeply acculturated. That's so without relying upon Rambam explicitly,

1028
01:04:58.199 --> 01:05:00.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't think Rambam shows up all that often in

1029
01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:02.480
<v Speaker 2>his writings, but he was. That's an example of a

1030
01:05:02.599 --> 01:05:09.360
<v Speaker 2>very Mimoitian figure. Another example could be a rabbi solo

1031
01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:12.920
<v Speaker 2>Agic who does quote Ra momb A lot, but he's

1032
01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:16.559
<v Speaker 2>rama of the mission tour is, he's all over the place,

1033
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:21.880
<v Speaker 2>but he himself was a communal leader. He was a

1034
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:28.039
<v Speaker 2>rabbi and very very acculturated. So that being my monody

1035
01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:30.559
<v Speaker 2>in the sense that we've described him here this afternoon

1036
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:35.400
<v Speaker 2>or by in your case, by this morning, he was

1037
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:39.800
<v Speaker 2>also my monity in that sense, the sense of being

1038
01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:45.119
<v Speaker 2>a Jewish leader who was swam comfortably in the currents

1039
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:50.079
<v Speaker 2>of the philosophy around him, who held his own in

1040
01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:54.079
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing. So they're many such less well

1041
01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:56.800
<v Speaker 2>known individuals whom I think we could call them, you know,

1042
01:05:57.519 --> 01:06:04.119
<v Speaker 2>modern Mimnodians in that sense, But in terms of universalism

1043
01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:13.280
<v Speaker 2>that's a harder sell. Resolvation was very open, but he

1044
01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:16.239
<v Speaker 2>certainly was more hall Avian than Rambambian. And the questions

1045
01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:24.320
<v Speaker 2>of the Jewish people, I do my senses that are

1046
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:27.360
<v Speaker 2>by sex was more more of my wand and than

1047
01:06:27.400 --> 01:06:28.719
<v Speaker 2>hall Avian in that question.

1048
01:06:30.519 --> 01:06:33.239
<v Speaker 1>But and you never had the opportunity to ask him.

1049
01:06:33.360 --> 01:06:35.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, I've met him on several occasions and we talked

1050
01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:38.119
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of things, but I don't remember that

1051
01:06:38.199 --> 01:06:43.440
<v Speaker 2>this particular question came up. But he he he liked

1052
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:44.199
<v Speaker 2>b bumb.

1053
01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:48.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, fair enough, We'll have to do the final question

1054
01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:50.480
<v Speaker 1>I like to pose, which is a question I like

1055
01:06:50.480 --> 01:06:52.320
<v Speaker 1>to post to many of my audiences that if you

1056
01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:56.119
<v Speaker 1>had to sit down for dinner with the stund to

1057
01:06:56.119 --> 01:06:58.679
<v Speaker 1>dinner with the subject of your study, namely in this

1058
01:06:58.719 --> 01:07:01.800
<v Speaker 1>case thrombam Uh, what would you be asking him? What

1059
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:03.639
<v Speaker 1>would you want to approach? Firstly, what do you think

1060
01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:06.159
<v Speaker 1>the experience would be like? Would you enjoy it? And

1061
01:07:06.199 --> 01:07:09.000
<v Speaker 1>more than that, what what would you what would you

1062
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:09.559
<v Speaker 1>want from him?

1063
01:07:10.039 --> 01:07:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's an embarrassing question.

1064
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:14.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

1065
01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:17.599
<v Speaker 2>I often say I wouldn't want to meet the Rambum

1066
01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:22.599
<v Speaker 2>because he would expect me to be thinner than I am.

1067
01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Yes, he would. Then all of us I would have

1068
01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:29.760
<v Speaker 1>to be much more disciplined and and what's the word

1069
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:32.639
<v Speaker 1>like sparing in our physical lives than we are.

1070
01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Secondly, I would have a hard time speaking to him in Arabic.

1071
01:07:39.800 --> 01:07:43.039
<v Speaker 2>We could we could converse in Hebrew. That's the amazing

1072
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:48.039
<v Speaker 2>thing about the mission of Dora. I translated one of

1073
01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:50.480
<v Speaker 2>the fourteen volumes. Say for Ah, the Book of Love,

1074
01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:56.719
<v Speaker 2>it's all about prayer. But he writes so clearly, Unlike

1075
01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:02.719
<v Speaker 2>my friend Roald bog who's who loved ambiguous santecedents. Rarely

1076
01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:04.719
<v Speaker 2>do you have a question about what Arama was saying.

1077
01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:08.199
<v Speaker 2>Because Hebrew is so pellucid, and I use that word

1078
01:08:08.280 --> 01:08:12.639
<v Speaker 2>crystal clear. So we could correspond in Hebrew him in me.

1079
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:17.920
<v Speaker 2>You wouldn't know all the slang I know, but we

1080
01:08:18.039 --> 01:08:20.720
<v Speaker 2>really could. It's amazing how as good as Hebrew was.

1081
01:08:21.279 --> 01:08:29.760
<v Speaker 2>But to answer your question, what would I ask the rahmbum?

1082
01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:32.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I would want to convince him that you

1083
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:34.399
<v Speaker 2>don't have to be a philosopher to be a good person.

1084
01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:38.520
<v Speaker 2>I would want to convince him that the Jewish tradition

1085
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:41.840
<v Speaker 2>is right, and that you can be a saintly fool.

1086
01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:46.000
<v Speaker 1>And and you can be a foolish philosopher as well

1087
01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:48.439
<v Speaker 1>or a scoundrel on the philosopher.

1088
01:08:47.920 --> 01:08:50.319
<v Speaker 2>Oh, absolutely right, you could. You'd also be a scount

1089
01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:53.560
<v Speaker 2>you could be I mean, I don't know. I've read

1090
01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:55.920
<v Speaker 2>little bits of Heider. Girl. You don't understand a word.

1091
01:08:56.079 --> 01:09:01.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't see why people find them so important. But yes,

1092
01:09:01.720 --> 01:09:05.520
<v Speaker 2>there are plenty of foolish philosophers good philosophers. There's a

1093
01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:08.199
<v Speaker 2>famous story told about an expert on Jewish ethics who

1094
01:09:08.239 --> 01:09:11.399
<v Speaker 2>beat his wife at the university many years ago. So

1095
01:09:11.439 --> 01:09:13.000
<v Speaker 2>when he has called out her and he says, look,

1096
01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:17.399
<v Speaker 2>mathematicians are are not expected to become triangles.

1097
01:09:18.119 --> 01:09:21.359
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I've heard that story many guys, in many forms,

1098
01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:26.680
<v Speaker 1>so the version of sory, but essentially, and okay, let

1099
01:09:26.720 --> 01:09:29.760
<v Speaker 1>me ask you think the Rambum would be possibly receptive

1100
01:09:30.119 --> 01:09:33.039
<v Speaker 1>to your to overtures.

1101
01:09:33.319 --> 01:09:36.039
<v Speaker 2>I can't look it. Them died in twelve o four.

1102
01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:40.159
<v Speaker 2>A few things have happened since then. One of the

1103
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:42.239
<v Speaker 2>many reasons I try not is if people ask me

1104
01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:44.279
<v Speaker 2>what I'm say about X, Y or Z, I usually

1105
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:46.760
<v Speaker 2>say I don't know. I can tell you what he

1106
01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:49.199
<v Speaker 2>actually said about similar subjects, but what he would say

1107
01:09:49.239 --> 01:09:53.720
<v Speaker 2>today in our reality, that's not a fair question. It's

1108
01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:56.039
<v Speaker 2>not fair to ask him either. First we have to

1109
01:09:56.079 --> 01:10:02.560
<v Speaker 2>give him eight hundred years worth of updating. I mean,

1110
01:10:02.560 --> 01:10:09.800
<v Speaker 2>this is a guy me, a guy who revers rombum right.

1111
01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:12.960
<v Speaker 2>That should have been clear from their conversation.

1112
01:10:13.840 --> 01:10:16.199
<v Speaker 1>But even though you spend a fair amount of the

1113
01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:18.279
<v Speaker 1>conversation saying how you don't think the rama is rights

1114
01:10:18.279 --> 01:10:19.640
<v Speaker 1>about this, So do you think he's right about that?

1115
01:10:19.720 --> 01:10:23.479
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm not on my Ownerdan right. I hope to

1116
01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:27.399
<v Speaker 2>be Rambaum was. I think like my teacher Stephen Schwarzschild

1117
01:10:27.560 --> 01:10:32.439
<v Speaker 2>was not looking for cosidium. So he would have taken

1118
01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:36.319
<v Speaker 2>criticism in stride because he will He wanted people to

1119
01:10:36.399 --> 01:10:41.119
<v Speaker 2>use their brains. He himself is always like he's constantly

1120
01:10:41.119 --> 01:10:44.960
<v Speaker 2>correcting what he wrote and asking people send him corrections

1121
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:48.920
<v Speaker 2>if they found mistakes, and that's an important aspect of

1122
01:10:49.720 --> 01:10:53.600
<v Speaker 2>his personality, one of many reasons to admire him.

1123
01:10:53.680 --> 01:10:56.319
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I think at this point we shall have to

1124
01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:59.000
<v Speaker 1>draw the cutting down. Professor Monachal Kelna, thank you so

1125
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:01.760
<v Speaker 1>very much. But Johnny yesterday on the podcast Jewish Ideas,

1126
01:11:01.760 --> 01:11:06.439
<v Speaker 1>this has been a splendid conversation and I recommend the

1127
01:11:06.439 --> 01:11:08.840
<v Speaker 1>readers to peruse many of the excellent books that written

1128
01:11:08.840 --> 01:11:11.199
<v Speaker 1>in particularly the subject, and we look forward to seeing

1129
01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:13.920
<v Speaker 1>your future output on these issues.

1130
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.039
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for Johnny, Thank you and good

1131
01:11:16.119 --> 01:11:17.079
<v Speaker 2>luck with your job.

1132
01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:21.359
<v Speaker 1>This has been the podcast of Jewish ideas by Tora

1133
01:11:21.479 --> 01:11:25.720
<v Speaker 1>in Motion, produced by Alisha Kellman and myself Jjkimbri, edited

1134
01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:28.199
<v Speaker 1>and mixed by Alisha Kelman. You can stay up to

1135
01:11:28.279 --> 01:11:31.039
<v Speaker 1>date by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. To support

1136
01:11:31.079 --> 01:11:33.640
<v Speaker 1>the more thoughtful Jewish content like this, please visit Toro

1137
01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:35.640
<v Speaker 1>in motion dot org. Slash donated