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Speaker 1: The ass as as as ask yes, ask asks, as

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as assess.

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Speaker 2: Throughout the course of philosophy.

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Speaker 3: We can see in history when you divorce anthropology from

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this kind of a revealed framework that we're going to

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talk about, what you get.

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Speaker 2: Is basically disaster, and you get things like reductions and

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materialism and so forth that ultimately whip where it is

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to be a human person. There's no notion of a

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human person. It's like a free will volition. These all

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the way aside, and it could be your only rather

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than if the world is a determined materialistic process, then

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free will is a lust er, and so is consciousness.

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Speaker 4: Ass s s sssssss.

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Speaker 2: Thirty thousand, chat firds, thirty thousand, chad nerds thirty thousand Can.

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Speaker 5: You hear me?

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Speaker 6: Nerds?

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Speaker 2: Forty thousand of you live?

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Speaker 6: Thirty thousand chaff firs nerds?

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Speaker 5: Are we lying?

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Speaker 6: Mh welcome? Welcome? How are you? Can you hear me?

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Speaker 5: Hi? Day?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, Hi guys, Hello. Everybody.

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Speaker 6: Price has risen, indeed, indeed he is indeed.

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Speaker 7: So in the.

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Speaker 2: Father, Deacon, you're you're lagging really bad. Jay, you can

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do the Russian Father. You're cutting out? Can you turn

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off the camera? Because it just there's no, it's not

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enough bandwidth.

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Speaker 5: Sir Christos was creasy is the Russian? How is that better?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a lot better. All right. Welcome.

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Speaker 2: I'm a little tired today, so I don't have all

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my normal insane autistic spurg gusto that I usually have,

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so welcome everybody.

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Speaker 6: Today.

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Speaker 2: We are going to talk about a book that we

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wanted to talk about for a long time. It was

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due and I finally got a hold of it for

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the Deacon as well. Lewis had read it a while back.

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It is sort of the seminal work on the history

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of this controversy. It's the Shasinski Philly Oquay History of

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a doctional controversy book. So we're going to be covering

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that as best we can in the next couple hours,

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and then of course everybody can hop over to watch

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David the Real Medwhite's debate, which will be starting, I

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guess in around a couple hours or shows. So some channel, okay,

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at Craig's channel, David's debating two.

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Speaker 6: Or two coptic guys.

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Speaker 2: What's the exact topics.

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Speaker 5: He's debating two coptic guys. Craig Truglia if someone can

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link that in the description in the chat, and he's

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debating two copts at the same time on mea physis

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versus diophysis, but excellent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's going to be a fascinating debate. So

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one thing that I want to say, just kind of

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as a preliminary on my side, and then I'll let.

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Speaker 6: You guys chime in, is uh.

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Speaker 2: The book kind of reminds me of Father de vor

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Nick's kind of classic book on Photius and his sort

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of revisionist take on Philio. I mean on Photius, which

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has influenced a lot of Uniates to kind of and

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even perhaps modern Romancolic scholarship as a whole, to have

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a more positive approach to Phocius, because of course, you know,

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many Uniates revere Phocius, and so in many ways this

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is similar to that in that this is not so

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much polemical, but rather just kind of a survey of

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both sides of the debate. What was happening in the

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first millennium, the way the Latins spoke, and then what

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what their conception was, how it developed a bit differently

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in the East and into Byzantium, and then kind of

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the departure at Lions versus Blackernet and then in the

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in the west into Florence. So for me, the the

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I did the chapter on the modern stuff was not

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that interesting. I mean, I'm familiar with the characters to

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a degree, but most interesting to me was the chapters

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on like Maximus and the Franks.

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Speaker 6: But anyway, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: That definitely we can get we can definitely get into

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all that. But uh, yeah, I don't have a strong

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view on I kind of think he's kind of out there.

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Who's the Bulgakov like the bulg cost stuff. I don't

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really care about it anyway, So what do you guys think?

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What's what's your take?

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Speaker 8: Initially, so, I mean, keep in mind it's not a

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polemic piece, and so it reads simply is just good

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scholarly material on these issues in the history. And so

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I think it's good and it's it's known as one

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of the best scholarly works out there in academia on

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the issue the Philly okuay.

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Speaker 7: Between the East and.

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Speaker 8: West and the history, and so I think it's definitely

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a book that could be recommended that if people ever

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want kind to get into the meat the nitty gritty

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of the history and the arguments of the book that

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you go to.

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Speaker 7: So he presents a very kind of unbiased, just kind

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of historical.

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Speaker 8: View of the issues, which I think a lot of

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people appreciate.

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Speaker 7: What is your thoughts.

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Speaker 5: So I read this book about three or four years ago.

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It was for me the first time I could really

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understand the Filly Oquid controversy, because I know a lot

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of people usually they get into kind of popular debates online,

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and for me it was the first. You know, I

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don't really think anyone will fully understand the controversy unless

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they've done either a ton of reading in other areas

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or they've read this book. So I you'll notice a

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lot of people just don't understand it unless the issue

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the full picture, unless they understand something about the thirteenth

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and fourteenth century, fifteenth century debates, both in the East

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and in the in the in the western position. So yeah,

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I mean, this is the This is the most complete

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history and exposition of the philioque from the New Testament

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all the way to the twentieth century, last ten years.

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And he says at the end that this isn't a

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full history. But because he says such a work can't

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even be written yet. But this is like the closest

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thing I think. I can't think of anything else.

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Speaker 2: One thing I would add is that a great addendum

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to this book from the Orthodox perspective, more specifically in

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terms of how things depart after Alliance, is Pavadocus's classic book,

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which I highly recommend christis in Byzantium, which goes into

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what happened in response in the East and the importance

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of eternal manifestation and Orthodox doctrine. How that's not just

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a theol Ofgumina, but it's actually directly connected to for us,

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the essence synergy distinction. So eternal manifestation is not just like, oh, well,

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we were going to come up with a way to

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try to main being Orthodox and not unite at Florence.

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It's it's directly a result in our view of the

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usen synergy distinction. So, uh, let's start early on with

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where the book begins.

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Speaker 6: So we start with.

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Speaker 2: What we have, like the Apostolic period and the biblical texts.

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He does kind of an introductory survey of where the

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book's gonna go. Procession of Spirit in the New Testament

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one thing, yeah, and then he moves directly into the

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Greek Father. But one thing that this book doesn't go

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into is from the Orthodox perspective.

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Speaker 6: That I would add as the.

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Speaker 2: Importance of the Ordo theology for us beginning with.

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Speaker 7: With It's only mentioned once in the book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, beginning with the priority of hypostasis. And this, as

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we know, it's implicit and uh affinacious, but it really

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begins to be elucidated in the Cappadocians.

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Speaker 6: So you'll find in Basil.

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Speaker 2: Particularly letters thirty eight, I think letter of one twenty five,

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and then in Gregor and no Sianzis. In the theological

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orations particularly I think three, the one of the Son,

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and then Nisa in against Unomius and Nisa against a Pollinarius.

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There's sections where he talks about the priority of hypostasis,

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not hypstatsis is an instantiation of nature, but is not

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reducible to nature. It also is more than that, and

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hence the reality of the distinctions of the persons in

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the triad. The son isn't just a manifestation of the

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Father's nature. He truly is a proper son of the Father.

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So there is a real distinction there that goes beyond

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the level of instantiation anyway, that is very important for

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us in how we approach a triad. And anyone familiar

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with the Cappadocians, or any even of the basic scholarship

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on the Cappadocians would know that that is fundamental to

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Orthodox theology. And you have a different view that develops

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in the West. It's not always different, it's not always

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totally out of a chord, but over time it develops

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in a different way.

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Speaker 6: So what do you guys want to say there?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I'd say too that that's really important to emphasize.

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So when you read Synthew's work, it's not theological per se.

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It's taken a historical So the issues of the division

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and controversy in the philio Quay is simply presented. And

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this book mainly is historical, political and linguistic issues, and

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I think as Orthodoxy can take and see that there's

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other issues as well that it's.

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Speaker 7: Really not brought up.

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Speaker 8: There's a few kind of references to the Scholastic project,

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but it's not really brought up that the West and

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the Latins embrace of the embracing of the Greek Pagan

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Hellenistic system as a system theologically and like you said,

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the order of the algae, these various issues are some

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of the essential factors that need to be added in

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the conversation from a theological and philosophical point of view,

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not simply well, it's just you know, this historical and

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political and linguistic developments over time is what led to

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theologically irreconcilable differences.

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Speaker 7: So I would just add that that's the only thing.

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Speaker 8: But he's not presenting this as a theological work, but

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it's a historical.

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Speaker 7: Work, so he's not to be blamed for that. It's

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just something that I would add to that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that from our perspective, what's kind

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of hinted at in the beginning with Athenacious is eternal manifestation.

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Speaker 6: So I was happy to see that.

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Speaker 2: Sarshenski even notes that Athanasius does seem to speak this

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way the eternal manifestation, and this is on page thirty eight,

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and then he goes on to note that in Athenasius's works,

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there's never really any explicit reference to the hypostatic origin

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of the spirit being the son. Yeah, the closest thing

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is just the eternal manifestation.

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Speaker 6: But again, in our.

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Speaker 2: Theology that will be different and will be interpreted differently

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than the way that the Latins will interpret that.

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Speaker 5: In Athenacious, Yeah, I'm reading through his letters on the

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Holy Spirit Serapion and at this point and I've not

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seen anything Phidio quaysh. I would say though that I

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think for me, for the first so the first chapter

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is the New Testament of exegesis, and then the second

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one is the Greek Fathers, so he doesn't overview the

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Greek fathers, and the third one is the Latin Fathers,

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and for me those kind of together because so the

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point for those three chapters, one of the takeaways is

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that the Greek tradition developed two different ways of expressing procession.

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These two different Greek words. I don't want to say

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them because I'll butcher them.

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Speaker 8: I'll think, I got i Fia is procession strictly speaking,

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and then Kronia is coming forth kind of in a

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more general sense.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I read it as ethi and but anyway, yeah,

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I mean, if.

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Speaker 9: There's any correct and the the takeaway is that the

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kind of the New Testament exog proof texts, at least

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according to the first chapter, none of them used by

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the Latins, or that in all the Greek side are

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really like good arguments because it's kind of like reading

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back later degrees into the New Testament.

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Speaker 5: And so the Greeks had the Greek fathers had, you know,

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poori Usathi was to denote like the procession, that hypostatic

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procession proper, and perenni was just to denote just a

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generic going forth. But the problem was that the Latin

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fathers only had they only had one word by which

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to or They translated both of those words as just prescheddery,

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so they didn't have the same nuance. So that was

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a cause for a divergence in the traditions in terms

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of that, and the Greek tradition very much solidified using

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one term for specifically for one thing and the other

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one for another thing. And that's even admitted by Catholic

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theologians a Roman Catholic Dialogue's twentieth century which at the

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end of the book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Vatican clarification on the Philly Oquay will be

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an important addendum to this book that I recommend people

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should check out because there's a there's a key section

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later on that will be relevant into Florence, which I'll

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touch on later, but maybe a little bit of a

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prelimina and moral prolagona, or I should say there's a

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couple of things I would say if you want to

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get maybe a stronger handle on the terminology. Lewis and

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I were discussing this in our review. A lot of

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the as Father Deacon and I have talked about for

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a long time, the theological terms, the philosophical terms take

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on a kind of a theological metamorphosis. And the Pelicon

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Book if you want a good introduction to in what

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sense natural theology undergoes a transformation and Greek philosophy and

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it goes a transformation in not just the Cappadocians, but

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even later into Maximus and these kind of later fathers,

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I recommend the Pelicon Book Christology or Christianity and classical culture.

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And then in terms of what we're going to get

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into this really crucial for our side is the priority

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of person over nature. That's not in a dialectic We're

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not saying that person is dialectically in tension with nature,

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but when phrases and certain theologians are used like that

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that person has a supremacy or a transcendence or a

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going outside of that's not ever intended to accept to

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express some sort of tension or division or or weird

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existential doctrine. One of the best from a scholarly vantage point.

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Listen to what I'm saying here, don't misquote me. I'm

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not saying that everything that this theologian says is correct,

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but he is recognized as a scholar on the Cappadocians.

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And in the first chapter of Being in Communion there's

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a great section on just how the Cappadocians crystallize nature

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in person, and then beyond that, the next best book

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is Metropolitan herotheus's book person in the Orthodox tradition, and

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what we'll what you see there is not just the

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point we made earlier about Ordo, but the way that

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this debate develops centers around the way that these terms

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are understood. That's why the terminology becomes so important in

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the history of this debate. So I'm glad you pointed

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that out, Lewis, because that's where we get to the Cappadocians.

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So were immediately we get to the Cappadocians. And I

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think the most striking thing here is Skushensky's admission that

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when we look at all of Basil's authentic works. There's

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not a single place at all that supports the idea

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that Basil taught that the sun in any way participated

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in the causal relation, in the causal, in the being

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the cause of the spirit hypostasis, right, just the opposite.

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Speaker 7: So in the anti Younomium writing Appadocians, they're trying to

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make sure.

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Speaker 8: They're not confusing theology and economy with the different uses

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of procession. But I found it interesting that he was

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able to point out that, specifically against the kind of

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anti civilian polemic which made the protection of each person's

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unique hypostatic properties, especially the father's role as the soul cause.

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Speaker 7: Within the godhead. I'm glad that he pointed that out.

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I thought that was really important.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, one of the points that's important takeaway

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for me from the Greek Father's chapter with the Cappadocians

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is the Eunomians, the Eunomian argument. Yeah, that you know,

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if you know, if he is in generate, there are

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two unoriginate beings. If he has forgotten, we can have

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alternatives bigotten either from the father or from the son.

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So they're talking about the hoty Spirit. This is quote

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from page to forty two. And Gregory doesn't respond by

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appealing to relations of opposition, right, he appeals to He says, well,

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the spirit comes forth from the Father, but not in

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the same way as the son, right. And that's and

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then when they ask well can you explain that, he says, well,

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that's a mystery. He appeals to mystery, which we would

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still do today. What's the difference between begetting and proceeding?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I just sent.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually in the catechetical lectures, it's in the

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theological orations, and it's in on the Holy Spirit by Basil,

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where it's made clear that we don't know what the

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distinction between generation and the spirit's procession is in terms

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of in terms of hyposthetic origin, but we know that

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it is.

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Speaker 6: So they stress that.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, if anybody would so, if you

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so against you, Unomius by Greviness says really long and

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really technical. It's like eight or nine hundred pages if

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you were to take the shaft set and put them

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into normal pages. But but Basil does have a shorter

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work which makes all of these same arguments that we're

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talking about here from the Calvioln University of America set

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against Unomius, and Basils against Unomius is only like one

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hundred and eighty ninety pages, So it's not that it's

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it's not that much of a beast, and he kind

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of is going to make you know, all the same

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arguments in a more concise way than Sant gregor Nissa does.

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But the other thing I would stress too is that

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you know, Basil's very clear in against Eunomius that there's

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a single hypostatic source of the person of the spirit,

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and namely it's the Father, and that can only be

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the case if we're giving onto logical priority to hypostasis here.

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Speaker 5: I think another important point is Thatsky intimates that the

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cappaditions are the first ones to really properly start talking

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about an eternal relationship between the Son and the Spirit,

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which is or shining forth of the Spirit from the

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Sun from eternity, and that is later interpreted in the

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fourteenth century to be a reference to the energetic procession

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or the eternal manifestation or the energetic manifestation, whatever you

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want to call it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, let's be clear that Basil is

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very explicit about the means to distinguish the person's being

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hypostatic properties. Hypostatic properties means how it relates to the origin.

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That's what it means. You can't there's no saying as

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hyposthetic origin or hypesetic properties apart from the father as

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the origin. Why where do we begin our hypostatic properties

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with the ark of the ark of the father?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 2: He is monarchia ark and are okay? He is without

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cause auto unoriginal autogenis he doesn't have.

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Speaker 5: A general general auto.

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Speaker 2: Yeahs, I was trying to say autotheos. All of those

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different terminologies are expressing basically the same notion of picking

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out what the key characteristic, The key marker is for

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the hypostasis of the father, and that is again related

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to origin. And so you begin to see why in

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the thought of the Cappadocians there couldn't be any secondary

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co cause of the hypostaetic property of the hypesetic property

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of the spirit.

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Speaker 5: Yes, because, as is later argued, if if the father

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and the son share in a in a hyposthetic property

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of say, the power of spirating the spirit, then you

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will confuse the persons because you've begun by distinguishing them

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on the basis of these hypostatic properties in the first place.

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Speaker 6: Right exactly.

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Speaker 2: And we should note too that this is another issue

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that I've noticed is popping up in a lot of debates, well,

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a lot of times when we're interacting with Thomas or when

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we were interacting with other people that are severely confused.

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There's a confusion of the epistemic order with the ontological order. Yes, yes,

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And this is actually mentioned here in the section on

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the Cappadocians. And it's actually Basil and other people who

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bring that to the fore. I mean earlier it's in

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afthenacious about the Arians because they make the same confusion.

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But Basil is responding to this confusion when people say, well,

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if you admit number into the triad, then you're admitting

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that there are separate deities. And so Basil responds by

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saying that, well, we don't mean number in the sense

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of ontological priority.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: The father because he's numbered first, or because he's called

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the Rka or the cause, does not mean that he

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has ontological priority in the sense of created causation.

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Speaker 6: So you can't read.

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Speaker 2: The priority that a father has in terms of generating

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his son temporally right into the relations of the Godhead.

386
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It's an that's an analogy. It's an analogia between the

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Father and a son and the human realm. And the

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real pattern is the heretics do the inverse where they

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00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,039
read the created into the uncreated, and they try to

390
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:27,000
determine the uncreated on the basis of the created. But

391
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:30,079
it's the other way around, right, We are reflections of God,

392
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,000
so not everything that's true of the temporal situation of

393
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,240
causation of Father's exactly. There's not a one to one equivocal,

394
00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:44,359
unifical correspondence. So we have to be very careful to

395
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,200
distinguish logical logical ordering from from ontological ordering.

396
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Speaker 7: That's a good critique of natural as conceived in the West,

397
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because that's exactly it's no.

398
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 8: Coincidence that that actually happens that people tend to have

399
00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:09,480
kind of isomorphic relation from reading.

400
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 7: From the natural world of the God through analogy of.

401
00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:17,039
Speaker 8: Entis because as you're pointed out earlier, the order of

402
00:28:17,079 --> 00:28:18,039
theology is different.

403
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 5: I thought it would be perton to point out which

404
00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:28,119
in the first chapter, because Shchensky cites Boris Rabinski, who

405
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,880
is again I think an orthodox theologian who I haven't read,

406
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,319
but who is cited here and mentioned later, and I

407
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,039
don't know. Well, according to the book, I wouldn't say everything.

408
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:41,720
We should agree with everything he says. But he makes

409
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,599
a good point that there's he points out three economic trinities.

410
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:51,680
So he has the Father Spirit Christ schema, which is

411
00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:55,480
like the spirit, the Father is first, and then the Spirit,

412
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,279
you know, overshadows the Virgin and then come and then

413
00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:02,000
Christ comes from that overshadowing. So you know, in a

414
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:04,720
sense you could say that the Son comes from the Spirit.

415
00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:11,799
And then there's the Christ Father spirit schema where I

416
00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:17,599
remember this, this is on page thirty. Yeah, Christ reveals

417
00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:20,160
the Father. So that's the Christ Father's spirit scheme. And

418
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,759
then there's the last one, which is the Johann nine one,

419
00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:26,839
which is the Father Christ Holy Spirit where Father sends

420
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,160
Jesus and then Jesus says the Spirit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is exactly why the so a

422
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,720
lot of times, when if you're new to this debate,

423
00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:35,119
you get into the polemics. This happened to me when

424
00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:37,319
I was a Roman Catholic. When I first encountered this debate,

425
00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:40,519
I went to some of the more introductory level of

426
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,599
polemics on it when I was a Roman Catholic, and

427
00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:44,559
they would make the argument that we'll just look at

428
00:29:44,559 --> 00:29:50,079
all these economic situations where you have this, this situation

429
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,799
of Jesus sending the Spirit. So therefore any economic situation

430
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,000
could be read back into the triad. But as you

431
00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:59,559
just pointed out, there's different schemas listed in scripture about

432
00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:03,640
what's going on in economia, and it would make total

433
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,519
madness of the triad to read all of those back

434
00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:09,960
into theology proper, the ontological Trinity.

435
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:11,839
Speaker 6: So exactly, yeah, we have to point that.

436
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Speaker 2: Out, and I would just add the statement again this

437
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:20,720
is so common page forty three, Gregory compared the epistemological

438
00:30:20,839 --> 00:30:23,960
order through which we come to know the Trinity. We

439
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,920
are led by the Spirit to a knowledge of the Son,

440
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,640
who reveals the Father with the ontological order. Where as

441
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,960
Bear says, the Father alone is in generate and without beginning,

442
00:30:33,359 --> 00:30:36,279
while the Son derives from the Father, and the Spirit,

443
00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:39,200
who also derives from the Father, is also always contemplated

444
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together with the Son. And then he goes on to

445
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:44,920
make the point that this has to be distinguished. We

446
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,640
can't confuse different orders. And this I think Father deacon,

447
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:54,400
you can say from the philosophical advantage point that this

448
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:57,400
is always necessary to keep in mind that to confuse

449
00:30:57,519 --> 00:31:00,720
categories is what leads people to out of mistakes.

450
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: Really, I just like to sorry, Okay, I just wanted

451
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,960
to pull in, just briefly, what's called the Clinging cling

452
00:31:13,079 --> 00:31:15,200
Thole Memorandum, which is in the last chapter in the

453
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,960
twentieth century the World Council of Churches meeting, and they admit, quote,

454
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,319
the memorandum states quote it would be insufficient and indeed

455
00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:26,519
illegitimate to read back into the Trinity only those New

456
00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:28,799
Testament passages which refer to the sending of a spirit

457
00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:34,720
by Jesus Christ unquote. Yeah, and this was the biggest

458
00:31:35,079 --> 00:31:38,480
in theological dialogue meeting of the twentieth century, according to Schensky.

459
00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:41,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the back and clarification on the field, okay,

460
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:43,720
would admit that as well as I think about it.

461
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,440
It's a pretty long essay, but I think it would

462
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,440
admit that kind of a point, all right.

463
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 8: So yeah, if we just sum up real quick there,

464
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,920
so if we look at the the Greek Father is

465
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:03,319
attempting to preserve the hypostatic, the unique hypostatic properties by

466
00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:07,400
having the Father as the soul cause in the strict

467
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:13,119
sense of procession, and then using different Greek words to

468
00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:14,319
protect that.

469
00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 7: And make the distinction between procession from the arcade, the monarchia.

470
00:32:22,559 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 8: The father would be equaling the thei versus the coming

471
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,759
forth and the procession and the various forms.

472
00:32:34,319 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 7: Of economy too.

473
00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:39,359
Speaker 8: That what's going to set the stage for all of

474
00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:42,759
this again is a different or theologic of starting with

475
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:49,279
person versus ousieu as you find a Greek thought. But

476
00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:52,680
I think this is going to explain too if this

477
00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:55,279
is on the Greek Father's mind, this is why they're

478
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,920
using these different words because they have a different theological project,

479
00:32:59,319 --> 00:33:02,079
and they have different concerns, and they need these words

480
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,400
to make these distinctions.

481
00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:09,359
Speaker 7: But when you get to the Latin, to simply translate

482
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,839
what all three of the different Greek words that we'd

483
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:20,519
call posession are coming forth from manifestation with procedere is

484
00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:22,160
going to obviously set up the problem.

485
00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 8: So I think that kind of sums up from my

486
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,759
point of view, with what's going on in the Greek

487
00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:31,119
follows and then what's going to lead into chapter three

488
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,559
with the Latin west starting with Augustine.

489
00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:36,759
Speaker 2: And I would add to that that Sashensky notes that

490
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:40,640
that even though there is the phraseology of the son

491
00:33:41,599 --> 00:33:45,160
of the spirit being in touch with the son, Sishensky

492
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,200
knows that Nissa does not take that to be a

493
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:52,720
co cause or a father son cause, or a one principal,

494
00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:55,680
single principal cause of the hypostasis of the spirit. In fact,

495
00:33:55,839 --> 00:33:59,519
Nissa is pretty explicit in many places that there is

496
00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:02,359
only one cause of the hypostatus of the spirit, and

497
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,920
that's the person of the Father. So in touch the

498
00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:08,920
spirit being in touch with the son is not about

499
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,360
hypostetic origin is the key here. And then we move

500
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,199
up into the period of the Creed. And then what

501
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,760
I think is relevant about the Creed here is that

502
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,760
when we understand the we're talking about the Constantinopolitan Creed, right,

503
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,079
So when we think about the notions that we had

504
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:31,480
earlier about hypostetic properties, this is how to read the Creed,

505
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,639
you see, right, the Creed does not do the move

506
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,920
of beginning with the essence right. And Sashensky will note

507
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,239
that with Augustine we have a shift. And this is

508
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,840
what we have said all along. This is why I

509
00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:48,480
many years ago changed my position on Augustine when he

510
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:51,519
was like I had too high of a position of

511
00:34:51,519 --> 00:34:54,519
Augusta when I was a Calvinist in Roman Catholic because

512
00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:59,480
I didn't realize that there is I believe a different

513
00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:05,360
developm in Augustinian metaphysics and philosophy in these questions. And

514
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,280
that's why when you look at the Creed, what does

515
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,199
it say we believe in God the Father? Right, we

516
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,119
begin with that hypostatic priority, We begin with the arcade

517
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:18,360
of the Father, and the Creed is therefore utilizing hyposthetic properties.

518
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 5: Yeah. One other thing I wanted to mention was Saint Carol.

519
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: Yes, this is important why we need to know he.

520
00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:32,199
Speaker 5: Finds he has quoted a lot in the Latin floor

521
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,639
legions apparently, and yes, he has used a law online

522
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:35,519
in means.

523
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: And he's probably their best case. I mean, I don't

524
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,920
actually think he is a supporter of what they try

525
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,679
to argue, but if they were to have to give

526
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,960
them the best possible case, it would be Cyril.

527
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,159
Speaker 5: Yes. But the problem is that well, first of all,

528
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,400
just because Carol talks about the spirit of receiving from

529
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,320
the Son doesn't mean he's receiving hypostatic existence of God

530
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,920
from the Son. Because John sixteen also talks about the

531
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,599
spirit receiving from the Sun. There's a different exegetics of that.

532
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,159
It could be about the the movement of the energies,

533
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:16,159
but it could also be about the just well the

534
00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:19,159
way that even Roman Catholic exegetes today, Scott is like

535
00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:22,239
Raymond Brown exegete. That is, by saying that it's just

536
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,199
when the Sun says that the spirit received from him,

537
00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:27,039
he's just saying that the Spirit isn't going to kind

538
00:36:27,039 --> 00:36:30,239
of bring some new revelation or some new teaching to

539
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,159
the apostles. He's just confirming what came before him as

540
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,840
the paraclet. And that's what the same Mark of Ephesus

541
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,480
responds to in the Council Florence when they bring up

542
00:36:41,519 --> 00:36:46,360
John sixteen as well. He uses that argument. But also

543
00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:47,360
there's the interesting thing.

544
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 2: That's why Sishchensky notes on forty nine that while while

545
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,000
Cyril maintained a role for the Sun and the eternal

546
00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:56,159
flowing forth of the spirit, this belief did not make him,

547
00:36:56,159 --> 00:36:59,239
as the Latins later claimed, an advocate of the spirit

548
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,920
because eternal he said that exactly.

549
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,199
Speaker 5: Yeah. And also the very important case of Theodora questioning

550
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,400
Kirol on whether or not he believes in the Father

551
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,800
being cause of the Spirit right explicitly, and Kirol is

552
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,960
saying no, that would be heresy, and then Theodoric confirming

553
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:23,760
his orthodoxy. So yeah, I mean I think that pretty

554
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,960
much puts the nail in the coffin for Kirol from

555
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:28,239
my perspective.

556
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: And by the way, I always forget this. So Shashensky

557
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,320
was a Uni e and then ended up Orthodox or

558
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,239
what was his when he wrote this? He was wrong?

559
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,719
Calolg right? Think is that correct?

560
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:43,159
Speaker 5: I don't know, Sorry, could you repeat that?

561
00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: Sorry when Sashenski wrote because people are gonna say, oh,

562
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,280
you're just quoting some Orthodox. I don't think when Sashansky

563
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,800
wrote this he was Orthodox, right.

564
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 5: I don't know. I've heard he I've heard he was

565
00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:56,920
still a Roman Catholic at the time. But it's kind

566
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,639
of irrelevant given the fact that I mean, even Ibar

567
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,559
a this book. So if it's good enough for you, Bar,

568
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:03,639
it's good enough for you.

569
00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So now we moved to the Latin fathers.

570
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:13,119
Let's move to Ertullian here. Anything relevant in uh Totullian

571
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,280
or Hillary you guys want to mention?

572
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,519
Speaker 5: Well, when I was reading the introduction, to the letter

573
00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:24,039
to Serapion. Sorry this is kind of off topic, but

574
00:38:24,559 --> 00:38:28,280
the scholar who did the translation, or who was part

575
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,239
of the translation introduction, he seemed to intimate that Totullian

576
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,840
and Origin began to depersonalize the Spirit, and but before

577
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,000
them there was a kind of concept of the Spirit

578
00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:42,199
being creator, you know, like you know, God obviously, but

579
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,960
then Totullian and Origin begin to depersonalize the Spirit.

580
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,679
Speaker 2: That that does seem plausible given the fact that Basil

581
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,239
had to combat so much of the Noumatomachi argument. I mean,

582
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,400
the Basil's got, you know, many works dedicated to offending

583
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,880
the full deity of the Spirit, and he was criticized

584
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,960
because he added this kind of a thing to the

585
00:39:05,119 --> 00:39:08,400
to the liturgy, and people say, oh, you're an innovator,

586
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,440
And you know, I think he justified his his argumentation

587
00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:16,079
because the Spirit is fully divine. So you know, I mean,

588
00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:18,000
that's what on the Holy Spirit is argument is that

589
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,440
the excuse me, well, on the Holy Spirit argues it

590
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:23,480
and then also and against you know me, as his

591
00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:25,400
argument is just simply that if the if the Spirit

592
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,760
possesses all the same energies as the Father and the Son,

593
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,559
then he has the same nature because energy signifies nature.

594
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,679
Speaker 8: And so Tertullian's presented not as somebody that it is

595
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,639
not anywhere clear that he supports philioquism.

596
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:49,519
Speaker 2: Right, let me see what he says. I mean, I.

597
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 8: Described Chewing himself as a philoquis or advocate of double procession.

598
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,280
His writings remain among the oldest witness the idea of

599
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:05,239
procession or through the son is interesting. So if you're Latin,

600
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:06,760
you better not used for Trulian.

601
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,159
Speaker 6: Yeah, I cu is not.

602
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 2: I mean, ultimately, I don't think he's that.

603
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 6: I mean he does.

604
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: I guess he matters for you know, using the terminology

605
00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:18,280
trinity early on, but for a lot of things that

606
00:40:18,519 --> 00:40:19,840
you know, it's kind of irrelevant.

607
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 5: But I mean again it comes to the question of

608
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,639
because he's because he he might just be. I think

609
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,719
Stanski intimates that he's talking about them like the sorry

610
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:34,000
not imminent, the economic But again, you another point with

611
00:40:34,039 --> 00:40:36,360
the Latin Father's chapters that seems to be made is

612
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:41,400
that we're intimated, is that you can't really exactly tell

613
00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:45,280
because because you because there's this question of whether you

614
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,199
read the Eastern Fathers and the light of the Latin

615
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,519
Fathers or the Latin Fathers and the light of the

616
00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,119
Eastern Fathers. So if you start with the idea that

617
00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:55,000
there's a strict there is a distinction between these different

618
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,360
procession terms, then when you read it which is Greek,

619
00:40:59,639 --> 00:41:01,920
then when you read the Latin Fathers, if you come

620
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,559
with that presupposition, then you're going to read the Latin

621
00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:08,519
Fathers like it's not really clear whether they mean which

622
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:11,159
procession they mean, because they just translate it all as prey.

623
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,599
Except for Saint Ambrose, who I think is notable. He

624
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,960
seems to intimate that there might be a difference. But

625
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,880
I'll find some highlight quotes from there in a second. Well,

626
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,320
you guys talk, but yeah, if you do it the

627
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,239
other way around, then then yeah, it's it's different.

628
00:41:31,599 --> 00:41:34,639
Speaker 8: So well you're gonna have to look at different times too,

629
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:38,039
because so keep in mind in the third and fourth

630
00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:46,239
century in Latin last the differences between right, the Latin

631
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:54,119
Fathers and the Greek Fathers aren't really that pronounced at all. Now,

632
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,039
I would say maybe the Greek Fathers had certain concerns

633
00:41:59,079 --> 00:42:01,679
that they were dealing with that maybe in the Latin.

634
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 7: West they wan't. But as far as I read.

635
00:42:07,559 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 8: The kind of catalysts there, and I'd even give a

636
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:12,760
sort of innocence to Augustine.

637
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,119
Speaker 7: But I think that's really where the beginning.

638
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 2: It is it is, and I Thinksky's take on Augustin

639
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,880
is correct. He sees he calls it a shift. There

640
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:30,360
is a shift with Augustine. So I would say, on Hillary.

641
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 5: I see it kind of like this whole this is

642
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,239
the whole filioquy thing. Sorry if I'm even getting it ahead,

643
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,039
but I see it kind of like for the first

644
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:42,000
five centuries, the Greek fathers are definitely way more developed

645
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:43,559
on their intrinitarian theology.

646
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I don't think it's.

647
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 5: And then, but then after Augustine and onwards, then there's

648
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:53,719
kind of a catch up. The Latin fathers catch up

649
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,039
with the Eastern fathers, and then you know, going into

650
00:42:57,039 --> 00:42:59,920
the Schism, the Latins are are ahead of the East

651
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,000
until Blackney. The Latin theology is more developed than the

652
00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:06,119
Eastern one in terms of the question of the procession.

653
00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:12,039
And then Florence happens, and the Latins are still definitely, yeah,

654
00:43:12,039 --> 00:43:15,159
they were there were definitely a lot more into it

655
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:18,159
and necessarily until later that the Greeks. So it's kind

656
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:20,280
of like two hairs racing.

657
00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:23,639
Speaker 2: Well, and that was that was because they the the eventually,

658
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,440
because of the rise of Augustine in terms of his

659
00:43:26,519 --> 00:43:30,400
dominance theologically, they were presented with the difficulty of trying

660
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,079
to make these two systems work based on you know,

661
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:36,719
the probably the limited for many centuries knowledge of the

662
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,480
Eastern fathers that they had. So even though you would

663
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,360
have councils being met after Augustine, uh, I think it

664
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,920
takes again many centuries for it to come to a

665
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,079
head to see, well, are these two different developments speaking

666
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:52,119
of the same thing, or are they two different developments

667
00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:54,960
that are incompatible. And it takes centuries to realize that.

668
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,559
And I would say on Hillary, it's good to note that,

669
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,800
like you said, Lewis, like the phrases that he uses

670
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:08,119
don't really tell don't really tell you in which way

671
00:44:08,199 --> 00:44:11,159
Hillary means them, So they don't really function as a

672
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:15,119
proof of philioque from Saint Hilary because it's unclear in

673
00:44:15,159 --> 00:44:17,440
which of the senses he means it. So it's kind

674
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,800
of it's not really it just depends on which one

675
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,119
is true. It doesn't really advocate either one. Let's see

676
00:44:25,159 --> 00:44:25,639
what's next.

677
00:44:25,679 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Yasky concludes that it's unclear whether Hillary himself

678
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,840
would have accepted the teaching quote unquote, and also that

679
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,159
he was more he was more concerned about I'm not

680
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,760
whether Hillary was quote, whether Hillary was attempting to communicate

681
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,360
the uniqueness of the spirit's eternal relation to the Father

682
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:50,519
by poreusis differentiating his procession from the Father from his

683
00:44:50,599 --> 00:44:53,360
temporal sending or receiving from the Father through the son

684
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:54,519
is still open to question.

685
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,199
Speaker 2: But it's important to note too that already at this

686
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,280
period we have i mean, the Latins do have a

687
00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:04,960
sort of a nascent conception of hypostyitic properties in some

688
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,119
of these, so they're not completely ignorant of this. But

689
00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:10,400
what they don't have is a clear development on the

690
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,840
notion of essence energy, because remember, eternal manifestation will be

691
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,760
predicated and directly connected to the essence energy distinction, and

692
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,199
there's not I mean, that's pretty it's necessary to see

693
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,760
that to understand the real issue of the debate later on.

694
00:45:26,119 --> 00:45:29,519
But again, as Bradshaw notes, the Latins didn't have the

695
00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:34,400
vocabulary and the nuance to make that level of a distinction,

696
00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:38,239
so we wouldn't necessarily immediately attribute error to all of them,

697
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:43,079
because they didn't necessarily explicate this correctly, because again it

698
00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:46,719
takes many centuries for it to be evident where exactly

699
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:53,599
the departure is. So Ambrose or let's see damasists or Ambrose,

700
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:54,880
do we anything we want to note there?

701
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 5: Damasis, he's a particular quote that I see used a

702
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,880
lot online. I can't I won't be able to quote out.

703
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,320
You can. You can read the book yourself. But he

704
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,119
says here the intention was simply to acknowledge the equality

705
00:46:13,159 --> 00:46:15,079
of the spirit, rather than delve into the question of

706
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:16,079
the procession proper.

707
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,079
Speaker 2: Oh, so this is a Galaesian decreidle, which is dubious.

708
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:23,760
A lot of people doubt the Galadian de credles. So

709
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,239
so he notes that this is part of a later

710
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,840
Profilio Oquay Florilegia, and it may be.

711
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 7: Doubted by a later editor.

712
00:46:34,119 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 2: But he says that they could signify that already there

713
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:45,079
was beginning to be a different understanding of the term.

714
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:47,519
Speaker 5: So I know that's that I was The quote I

715
00:46:47,639 --> 00:46:54,480
quote was from scholars unsure it's a either Damasus, a

716
00:46:54,519 --> 00:47:00,840
treatise by Priscilla of Avala, or some synod in three.

717
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,679
Speaker 2: I'm looking at his fifty seven where he says.

718
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 5: The oh I was looking at fifty six.

719
00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Well, he says at the end of the

720
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,000
Damasis section that it's a dubious text. Yeah.

721
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 5: Yeah. He he uses two quotes, So there's the one,

722
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,079
there's the glacious one, and the one before just above.

723
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:21,639
Speaker 8: Okay, Ambrose and Jerome, Yeah, it doesn't seem clear. And

724
00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:25,280
Ambrose the same problem too, that he doesn't seem even

725
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:30,840
though if he says proceeded potuit at o filio, he

726
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,159
also says the Holy Spirit proceeds.

727
00:47:35,159 --> 00:47:40,119
Speaker 7: From the Sun through from the Father through the Sun.

728
00:47:40,559 --> 00:47:46,079
Speaker 8: So it doesn't seem like he's actually, let's he say

729
00:47:46,119 --> 00:47:55,440
here concerned with procession per se, but rather, what does

730
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:56,039
it say.

731
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 5: The economy of salvation? Yeah? Yeah, quote. Yet in both passages,

732
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,840
it should be known that most scholars have traditionally maintained

733
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,920
that Ambrose are speaking of the first activity in the

734
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:10,599
economy of salvation, yeah, not speculating about in sharing life unquote.

735
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,159
And then he says quote. Although later Latin theology equated

736
00:48:15,199 --> 00:48:17,360
being of the sun with the idea of being from

737
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,119
the sun, it is impossible to read. It is impossible

738
00:48:20,159 --> 00:48:22,960
to read this view into Ambrose theology on quote.

739
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we see the importance of presuppositions here. And

740
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,960
then the role that Jerome seems to come to play

741
00:48:30,119 --> 00:48:33,800
is that when he translates the Volga, he I guess

742
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,480
it looks like he crystallizes the pro cheedaire prochad aera

743
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,079
I don't know Latin in terms of John fifteen twenty six.

744
00:48:42,199 --> 00:48:44,400
And that this will contribute, unfortunately, I think, to some

745
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,840
of the confusion because it neglects the nuance in the

746
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,119
Eastern conceptions of these terms. That is what he seems

747
00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:55,639
to say at the end of the Jerome section. For

748
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,519
Jerome and subsequent generations of Latin theologians, the text the

749
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,800
word that Drum uses as a broader term. So you

750
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,280
see what I'm saying. It doesn't have the precision of

751
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:14,960
the Eastern fathers. So that will contribute to the polemics,

752
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,920
because people will go to Jerome and they'll see the

753
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,159
phrase in Jerome or in the Vulgan, and they'll go back,

754
00:49:23,199 --> 00:49:25,239
and then anytime they see that in Ambrose or any

755
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,639
of these hillary and they'll say, oh, see, look, it's

756
00:49:27,679 --> 00:49:31,599
the philioquoid in our sense. So then we get to

757
00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:32,639
the section of Augustine, and.

758
00:49:32,679 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 6: He says that.

759
00:49:35,639 --> 00:49:38,599
Speaker 2: He agrees with the Bradshaw take with my take with

760
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:44,199
the modern prominent quote Palamite orthodoxyologians that tend to think

761
00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:49,960
that we do begin to see this alteration more significantly

762
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,880
and clearly and most prominently in the character of Augustine. First,

763
00:49:55,599 --> 00:50:00,519
certainly you could find predecessors, as you noted in Origins simplicity, doctrine,

764
00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:03,760
first principles. Origin is pretty clear about all the attributes

765
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,920
being strictly identical to the essence. Augustin's very clear about that.

766
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,440
And on the Trinity day trenantate he says, is a shift.

767
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,920
It is, and this is where we begin to see

768
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,519
things like relations of opposition. He even notes the problem

769
00:50:19,639 --> 00:50:24,440
of relation and how relations of opposition is a it

770
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,760
relates to diad. But the Trinity is not a diad,

771
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,960
so it doesn't even make sense to talk about relations

772
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,320
of opposition. And the problem is that it's too it's

773
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,679
too relativistic. Right, So the only reason that Augustine would

774
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,400
have to even speculate on some of these issues in

775
00:50:38,519 --> 00:50:42,800
day Trentaatee would be if he had the incorrect approach

776
00:50:43,079 --> 00:50:47,559
to absolute divine simplicity from our perspective, and he does

777
00:50:47,679 --> 00:50:56,880
because there's a consistent presentation in Augustine's triadology, Christology, anthropology, sacramentology,

778
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,840
his materiology, and his eschatology that would be consistent if

779
00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:06,239
the presuppositions were absolute divine simplicity. And if you presuppose

780
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,440
absolute divine simplicity, you get all the same conclusions that

781
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,960
Augustine gets. So I think that's a pretty I mean again,

782
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,320
how many how many scholars does it take, you know,

783
00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:18,679
showing that Augustine thought these things?

784
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 6: It's not that hard. Just you know, you can go

785
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:22,039
to on the Trinity and see what he thought.

786
00:51:22,119 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 8: So that's why he takes the whole donum the gift

787
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,320
and then reads what's the quote here?

788
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,679
Speaker 7: Not only was the Holy Spirit the mutual love the

789
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,840
father and son, but their mutual gift on them, this

790
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,320
love poured out upon community.

791
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 8: Since the Holy Spirit is something common to the father

792
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,480
and son, and thus the gift of both, Augustine can

793
00:51:42,519 --> 00:51:43,000
affirm them.

794
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,519
Speaker 7: According to the Holy scriptures, this Holy Spirit.

795
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,199
Speaker 8: Is not just the fathers alone nor the sons alone,

796
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:52,880
but the spirit of them both.

797
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 7: So there you begin, it's what is.

798
00:51:54,239 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 8: It cuscus neck part Pas asked.

799
00:52:03,559 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 2: This is where this is where energetic manifestation gets confused

800
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:17,719
with hypostatic property or hypostatic reality or or what am

801
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,079
I trying to say the Latin doctrine of confused. What

802
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:23,960
happens here is that we begin to confuse energy or

803
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,760
attribute with hypostasis, So the hypostats of the spirit gets

804
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,639
to be confused with uh with that, and then our

805
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:34,679
our take on that is just simply to say that

806
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,079
we don't have a problem as saying gravery Palomas says

807
00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:39,320
in calling the spirit the love of the Father and

808
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,079
the son, but what does it mean? It means in

809
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,000
a sense of energetic manifestation, just like we can call

810
00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:50,400
the son the reason the will of the Father. Does

811
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,239
that mean that he's ontologically strictly identical to the will?

812
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 8: So that's the reason why I brought that up is

813
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,840
if your presupposition on starting point exactly, yes, you'll read

814
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,760
the donum the gift, yes, in a way that will

815
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,960
then lead you into a double procession or exactly.

816
00:53:08,039 --> 00:53:10,519
Speaker 2: And that's why we have we always stress that love

817
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,000
is an attribute or an energy pro common to all

818
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,440
three persons. You can't reduce, you can't do a reductionist

819
00:53:18,519 --> 00:53:21,199
move where you reduce one of the attributes to one

820
00:53:21,199 --> 00:53:23,760
of the hypostaces. It leads to just all kinds of

821
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,559
silly views in this exact same move that like you

822
00:53:26,679 --> 00:53:28,280
borrow and people like that do when they go to

823
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,920
Athanasius and they see that Athenacious will call the son

824
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,039
the will or the reason of the father. And we

825
00:53:35,079 --> 00:53:39,360
would say, yeah, but not at the level of identifying.

826
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,480
It's that the it's there is a predication that is

827
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,320
of identity, right, It's two different things.

828
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 6: Lewis, do you have anything on that?

829
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:55,639
Speaker 5: Yeah? I mean, for Lewis, when we're considering can you

830
00:53:55,679 --> 00:54:00,599
hear me, yeap, when we're considering a presuppositions. I was

831
00:54:00,639 --> 00:54:03,840
mentioning earlier the reading one set of fathers in light

832
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,840
of the others, or reading the other in light of

833
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,880
the former. It seems to me that we should read

834
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,400
It seems to me, at least when I was thinking

835
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:13,840
of coming to terms with that. And you guys can

836
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,199
disagree with me if you want, but it seems to

837
00:54:16,199 --> 00:54:19,599
me that because the Kappadocians had they were there, their

838
00:54:19,599 --> 00:54:24,320
theology was the foundation of the trinitarian doctrines of constantinople

839
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,199
One and it seems to me that we should be

840
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,639
reading the earlier Latin fathers before Augustine in light of

841
00:54:32,679 --> 00:54:34,360
their theology. I agree, that's my take.

842
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 2: No, I think I think that's how we should read

843
00:54:36,639 --> 00:54:37,920
Hillary for example.

844
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

845
00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 5: Yeah. Oh and there's a great there's a great article

846
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:50,639
from Perry's blog Energetic Procession talking about Saint uh Saint Ambrose.

847
00:54:51,559 --> 00:54:54,079
I think it was Saint Ambrose about whether or not

848
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,119
whether or not he did recognize a different and energetic

849
00:54:57,159 --> 00:54:58,079
manifestation or not.

850
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, see if I I'll pull that up and put

851
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:01,719
in the chat.

852
00:55:03,039 --> 00:55:07,639
Speaker 5: It's pretty good. And yeah, Perry's Perry's blog Energetic Procession

853
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,400
dot com is like written, has a lot of amazing material,

854
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,079
especially against his Protestantism.

855
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:19,159
Speaker 2: Is it? In no way? That's not it? Do you

856
00:55:19,199 --> 00:55:20,920
know the title of the essay.

857
00:55:20,639 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 5: And I'll find it you guys took.

858
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: Okay, Uh, here's a good quote.

859
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 7: The one aspect of gust and trinitarian thought that latter

860
00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:31,679
Latin theologians.

861
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 8: Especially Anselm and Aquinas adopted and adapted with the teaching

862
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,079
that father's son and Spirit were not absolute but rather

863
00:55:39,159 --> 00:55:43,400
relative terms denoting relationships within the Trinity. Augustine had written

864
00:55:43,519 --> 00:55:47,960
that quote. Although being father is different from being son,

865
00:55:48,119 --> 00:55:52,360
there is no difference in substance because they are not

866
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,960
called these things substance wise.

867
00:55:54,679 --> 00:55:56,079
Speaker 7: But relationship wise.

868
00:55:56,199 --> 00:55:58,679
Speaker 8: For that reason, according to Augustine, the father is not

869
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,719
anything with reference to himself, and that not only has

870
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,840
being father, but also simply being is said with reference

871
00:56:08,599 --> 00:56:09,280
to the son.

872
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:15,119
Speaker 7: So notice the emphasis is different versus hypostatic.

873
00:56:15,519 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, relations and properties versus as fans. He points out

874
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:29,159
that's adopted by Anselom and Aquinas and the later Latin theologians.

875
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 7: Relative categories of relations of opposition.

876
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean again, a lot of people make two

877
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,400
simple mistakes. Well, let's make three simple mistakes that are

878
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,639
made here. Word concept fallacy, confusion of categories like ontological

879
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:56,800
as opposed to epistemological, and equivocation or univical predication. These

880
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,320
are these are or for failing to distinguish between is

881
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,559
a predication and he is an identity. These are These

882
00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:06,960
are very common mistakes that people make. Next up the

883
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:12,559
Hooper misdess. Uh Snsky dismisses this as a forgery. Modern

884
00:57:12,599 --> 00:57:14,519
scholars do not accept.

885
00:57:14,199 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 5: The all right, sorry, Jay, I'm putting in in the

886
00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:20,039
in the I'm putting in the zoom chat. It's actually

887
00:57:20,079 --> 00:57:23,480
on Saint Hilary, So I was wrong. It's not ambreys

888
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,760
o that one and then the other one is good

889
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,360
also sat Mark of ephesis on the filio also on

890
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:31,760
his blog. So I'll put I'll put both those in

891
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,159
the zoom chat. You can put them in the in

892
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:35,599
the YouTube chat.

893
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 6: Okay, okay, where are we?

894
00:57:40,039 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 2: Uh leo, No, let's see we're at like Boetheus Fulgentius

895
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:51,400
uh Gentius.

896
00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 8: Basically he wrote the spirits procession from then was the

897
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,079
same as the procession from your father.

898
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 5: Know there. Well, we start seeing forgery now, by the way.

899
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good point.

900
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:02,559
Speaker 6: That's a good point.

901
00:58:02,679 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is when this thing things start getting a

902
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,760
little harry with forgeries exactly.

903
00:58:08,079 --> 00:58:10,199
Speaker 7: And then we have the Third Council of Toledo five

904
00:58:10,239 --> 00:58:18,800
eighty nine. It's King King Ricardo.

905
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:26,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, Pope Hormiss's confession to the Emperor, I think is

906
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:32,880
most Scott has doubt it's authenticity. Think it's a forgery. Yeah,

907
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,840
you start getting forgeries now, sixth century.

908
00:58:35,639 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: Right, So now we're going to get up into Maximus.

909
00:58:39,519 --> 00:58:41,800
Is there anything else we had on Toledo? I mean,

910
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,039
Toledo is where we start getting confusion. I mean, Toledo

911
00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:50,480
in itself is a hairy one because we know that

912
00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:54,000
the intention was to try to fight arianism. The problem

913
00:58:54,039 --> 00:58:58,119
is that it begins to allow for more confusion, is

914
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:00,119
the problem with Toledo.

915
00:59:03,639 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 5: I do have this quote from a twentieth and Shield.

916
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:14,360
I think it's either Losky or Stanieloi, and he tries

917
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:15,519
to vindicate.

918
00:59:18,119 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 6: You might can make a case for that.

919
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 2: Because at this period, again we still haven't seen precision

920
00:59:27,119 --> 00:59:30,119
on what the difficulty or the departure is.

921
00:59:30,679 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 7: So you ember worried about the falling into arianism.

922
00:59:33,599 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 2: And yeah, exactly, and this is why Maximus in his

923
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,039
day will It's still not even clear in Maximus's day,

924
00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:43,880
So again it does. It doesn't become clear in my view,

925
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,840
and I'm happy with giving as much leeway as possible.

926
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,840
In my view, it's not clear until Lions. I mean,

927
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,079
I think Phocius was correct that they were beginning to

928
00:59:55,119 --> 00:59:58,639
make these serious mistakes. But in terms of dogmatic acceptance,

929
00:59:58,719 --> 01:00:01,880
we should we should point to Lions, because that's where

930
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:05,599
from the Roman Catholic vantage point, it's it's indisputable.

931
01:00:06,039 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 7: And then blatting right.

932
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 2: Lewis thing.

933
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:11,239
Speaker 6: Then you want to add on that.

934
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, while I'm on it now, I just wanted to

935
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:22,480
grab this quote from Sergez Bulgakov which Schensky quotes, which

936
01:00:22,519 --> 01:00:26,760
I think is good. He caused the idea of necessary

937
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,119
relational opposition within the trinity a theological absurdity.

938
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:31,199
Speaker 2: Yeah.

939
01:00:31,239 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 5: He says that relations are predicates and not subjects. For

940
01:00:35,599 --> 01:00:38,039
a relation arises and exists only where the things that

941
01:00:38,039 --> 01:00:40,760
are related exists. It is grounded by them and arises

942
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:45,280
between them. It does not ground them. Why.

943
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 2: This is why, Yeah, this is why hypostasis has to

944
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,000
have the notion of subject. This is this is crucial

945
01:00:51,039 --> 01:00:53,519
to Cyril and the refutation of Nestorius, as well as

946
01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:55,920
all the other arguments that we have more recently with

947
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:57,119
people the.

948
01:00:57,079 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 5: West had quote abolished the existence of the hypostat as such,

949
01:01:01,679 --> 01:01:03,719
unquote some other people are doing.

950
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 2: That's great, exactly they are.

951
01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:09,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, I thought that was a really good argument coming

952
01:01:09,639 --> 01:01:10,480
from Borgakov.

953
01:01:11,039 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 6: Where was that, by the way, which section.

954
01:01:12,599 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 5: Was that page twentieth and twenty.

955
01:01:16,039 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 10: First century in what book?

956
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 5: Well he sited, he's cited, he's citing.

957
01:01:24,639 --> 01:01:26,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, but by the way, I'm not there.

958
01:01:26,639 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 5: Here we go, Yeah, it's it's Lostky Losky believed that

959
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,480
while one could quote admit the possibility of the villio

960
01:01:31,559 --> 01:01:37,920
quit as it first appeared at Toledo, for example, it

961
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,320
was the idea, what kind of the big the problem

962
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,719
is the idea of this father and the son being

963
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,280
a single principle, the father and the son being aishia

964
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,320
or cause that's that's the that's what the issue is. Yes,

965
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:53,480
I wish you were going to talk about.

966
01:01:53,239 --> 01:01:54,119
Speaker 7: When we get to maximums.

967
01:01:54,159 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 2: Right, And to be clear, the quote was from Lasky

968
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,480
or from Borgakov I which one the one that you're

969
01:02:00,519 --> 01:02:02,039
talking about about how you can't?

970
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, So the Toledo one was from laws Scow on

971
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:10,280
the page just on the other side, and the one

972
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,920
about the relations is from Bulgakov on page one nine six.

973
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,559
Speaker 2: I see, so you can't, Yeah, you can't make relations.

974
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:25,119
The identic the identifier of subject doesn't make any sense. Yeah, okay,

975
01:02:25,159 --> 01:02:27,880
so there we ready for Maximus. This is where it

976
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:29,800
starts to get a little more wrapped up here.

977
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. This is the most important bit, right.

978
01:02:33,559 --> 01:02:35,920
Speaker 2: So Lewis, give us your take on this, because you've

979
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:37,599
made some really good points to me when we were

980
01:02:37,599 --> 01:02:40,119
talking about this Maximus chapter. Why is this one of

981
01:02:40,159 --> 01:02:41,840
the most important bit here.

982
01:02:43,199 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 5: So Maximus, say, Maximus is the first father from the

983
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:55,360
East to interact with the concept of the procession from

984
01:02:55,440 --> 01:03:01,639
the Sun in the west, and he in his letter

985
01:03:01,719 --> 01:03:07,559
to Marianus is some some some eastern has got caught

986
01:03:07,599 --> 01:03:11,119
wind of what was, you know, being taught in terms

987
01:03:11,159 --> 01:03:15,599
of the procession in the west. So Maximus was basically

988
01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:18,119
giving a defense of their view, and the way he

989
01:03:18,159 --> 01:03:20,559
defends them is by saying that the Latins aren't trying

990
01:03:20,599 --> 01:03:24,360
to introduce the sun has a cause, which is the

991
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,760
contentious issue. I can't remember what other points I made

992
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,320
to you. It was a while back, but if you

993
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,199
remember them then you can make them well.

994
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 2: And you were just pointing out that ultimately the letter

995
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,079
to Marhinus doesn't function really to do much, right, because

996
01:03:41,119 --> 01:03:43,880
what happens with a lot of apologetic debates is people

997
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,519
will go to the letter of Marihus and say, look,

998
01:03:46,519 --> 01:03:48,480
why don't we all just get along. Maximus said that

999
01:03:48,519 --> 01:03:53,199
the Latins weren't trying to introduce or say anything crazy.

1000
01:03:53,719 --> 01:03:57,119
But this ignores that there's centuries of debate after this, right,

1001
01:03:57,199 --> 01:03:59,320
So if you just took this section out, this is

1002
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:00,840
this is so key here is that we have to

1003
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:07,199
be careful not to mistake or not to exercise something

1004
01:04:07,239 --> 01:04:09,880
that's specific to the to the course of this debate,

1005
01:04:10,559 --> 01:04:12,960
because that these debates take many, many centuries. You know,

1006
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,639
Father Deacon, you always talk about the conversation of the

1007
01:04:15,719 --> 01:04:18,559
history of philosophy, right, I can't just go to Hume

1008
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:23,000
and grasp, Oh, Hume's got all the answers, because Hume

1009
01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:26,679
is responding to interacting with ideas before him, and people

1010
01:04:26,719 --> 01:04:31,039
after Hume will respond and critique Hume. So there's a

1011
01:04:31,079 --> 01:04:34,599
similar situation that goes on in the precision and debate

1012
01:04:34,719 --> 01:04:38,239
of theology throughout the centuries. You can't just look at

1013
01:04:39,119 --> 01:04:42,159
the letter to Marhinus as if that, you know, doesn't

1014
01:04:42,199 --> 01:04:47,599
happen centuries before the centuries the vacuum, centuries before Black,

1015
01:04:47,639 --> 01:04:48,480
Grene and Lyons.

1016
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:51,559
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1017
01:04:51,599 --> 01:04:53,679
Speaker 5: So that one of the key points now I'm just

1018
01:04:53,719 --> 01:04:57,119
looking over my highlighted sections again, is that Maximus is

1019
01:04:57,199 --> 01:05:01,079
very clear about the energetic person through the sun.

1020
01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, there's no question and yeah.

1021
01:05:05,239 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, Shshinsky says that Maximus wouldn't accept He explicitly says

1022
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,320
Maximus wouldn't have accepted the Florentine filioquid formulation.

1023
01:05:13,519 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 6: Right, that's great.

1024
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:18,519
Speaker 2: And also keep in mind that all those other contentious

1025
01:05:18,559 --> 01:05:22,400
distinctions that we talk about about the logie as energies,

1026
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:30,440
about the in hypostatic nature of divinity, that's all from Maximus. Right,

1027
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,760
It's not disputed that that's very clear in Sant Maximus.

1028
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,800
So these are issues that will will be problematic when

1029
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:43,679
we compare Maximus to say Tomists. Even von Balthazar, who

1030
01:05:43,719 --> 01:05:49,400
wants to kind of defend and make Maximus as Tomistic

1031
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,519
as possible, admits the limitations of this.

1032
01:05:51,719 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 5: Right.

1033
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 2: I mean, the things the logi are, the things around

1034
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:56,320
the essence, they're not identical to the essence.

1035
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:56,559
Speaker 7: Right.

1036
01:05:56,639 --> 01:06:04,119
Speaker 8: So anyway, here's a good quote on seventy eight. While

1037
01:06:04,159 --> 01:06:09,039
the Father, so speaking of Maximus, thought on this and

1038
01:06:09,079 --> 01:06:10,519
how we'd know there would be no.

1039
01:06:10,559 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 7: Way that he would support for the Oaklaism.

1040
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 8: While the father remains unorriginated cause of the spirit. He

1041
01:06:16,559 --> 01:06:18,400
is always the father of the son, and the spirit

1042
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:23,079
comes forth from him in such a way that this

1043
01:06:23,239 --> 01:06:26,880
eternal relationship to the son is not excluded.

1044
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 7: The father remained the soul cause. So all this.

1045
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:34,199
Speaker 8: Language and the debate is going to become important because

1046
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:37,440
as we get to the Count of Florence, they're going

1047
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:41,880
to try to the basically, anti unionists are going to

1048
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:46,800
want to emphasize soul causes and the union those supporting

1049
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:49,679
union are going to want to take that away and

1050
01:06:49,719 --> 01:06:51,239
be like, well, he can be a cause in you know,

1051
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:55,599
a different sense. So it's important that we find Maximus

1052
01:06:55,599 --> 01:06:57,760
here saying the Father remain the sole cause of the

1053
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:01,880
spirit's hypostasis as the one who spirates him. The spirit,

1054
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,880
intimately aware of the Father's beginning of the sun comes

1055
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:10,000
forth from the beginner through the begotten as the spirit

1056
01:07:10,039 --> 01:07:12,519
eternally manifesting their common nature.

1057
01:07:12,599 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 7: I thought that was a really important force right now, and.

1058
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:18,239
Speaker 8: It's going to become important once we get to the

1059
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:19,280
Council party.

1060
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:20,559
Speaker 6: Which page is that for?

1061
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:24,159
Speaker 7: That's seventy eight, Okay, I'm want to make a note

1062
01:07:24,199 --> 01:07:24,360
of that.

1063
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 5: A point, So yeah, I mentioned earlier. I'm just rereading

1064
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:36,599
my notes. So basically, what happened was that the men

1065
01:07:36,639 --> 01:07:39,960
of the Queen of Cities Constantinople attacked the Sinoda letter

1066
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,280
of the present most Holy Pope. This is from the

1067
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:48,599
letter of Maximus to Marinus, so he was people from

1068
01:07:48,679 --> 01:07:51,320
Byzantium were critiquing the Pope's letter, and so he was

1069
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:53,360
defending the Pope's letter on the basis of the procession.

1070
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:53,559
Speaker 6: Right.

1071
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,079
Speaker 5: One thing that that I didn't highlight, which I'm looking

1072
01:07:57,119 --> 01:07:59,519
at now though, is that this is from Serchenski quote

1073
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:01,920
is it's difficult to determine how much of the Latin

1074
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:05,079
theological tradition Maximus had been exposed to during his years

1075
01:08:05,079 --> 01:08:08,400
in Carthage. Certainly, as we have seen, by the mid

1076
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,679
seventh century there were more than a few Latin writers

1077
01:08:10,679 --> 01:08:13,800
who had utilized some variant of the prechederae exfilio or

1078
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:19,279
perfilium formula that proceed from the sun or through the sun. However,

1079
01:08:19,319 --> 01:08:24,239
if Alexander Alexikis is correct and Maximus is referring is

1080
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:28,119
referencing a pre existing profilio quit flora legium, then his

1081
01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:30,520
knowledge of the Western teaching and the procession might have

1082
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:34,960
been limited to just a few select quotations exactly.

1083
01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 2: I think that makes a lot of sense.

1084
01:08:41,079 --> 01:08:42,039
Speaker 6: Let's see.

1085
01:08:42,239 --> 01:08:46,600
Speaker 2: So the next section is where we begin to have clarity. Now,

1086
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:51,680
it's not dogmatic, dogmatically that clear that the two churches

1087
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:53,600
are separating, But in chapter five.

1088
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 5: Can I just give the explicit quote from Maximus where

1089
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:02,439
he said he says, if the pope considered the Son

1090
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,520
as a cause of the procession of the Holy Spirit,

1091
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,399
or believe that the Son was sort of a second cause,

1092
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,520
or even with the Father a unique cause, Maximus would

1093
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:12,520
not have considered such an opinion acceptable. Sorry, that's not

1094
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,880
from Maximus. That's from I'm like literally just looking at

1095
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:21,479
my highlighted bits. Oh, it's a scholar. Sorry, I might

1096
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:23,479
find the exact quote from Maximus while you guys talk.

1097
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:30,239
Speaker 2: So he says, by the ninth century, it's becoming clear

1098
01:09:30,239 --> 01:09:33,239
that there's two separate readings right now, it's not that

1099
01:09:33,359 --> 01:09:38,239
dogmatically clear yet. Of course, if you read the Misigagio

1100
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:41,640
Saint Photios, which which I still think holds up, I

1101
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,560
think it's pretty pretty solid, you can tell that there's

1102
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:47,239
he sees the issues.

1103
01:09:48,199 --> 01:09:52,319
Speaker 5: Sorry, here's the quote I finally find it. Quote from

1104
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:54,840
this the writings of the fathers, they as in the Latin,

1105
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,119
show that they themselves do not make the Son the

1106
01:09:57,159 --> 01:09:59,119
cause of the Spirit, for they know that the Father

1107
01:09:59,279 --> 01:10:01,039
is the one cause of the Sun and the Spirit,

1108
01:10:01,079 --> 01:10:03,279
the one by begetting and the other by procession. But

1109
01:10:03,359 --> 01:10:05,840
they show the progression through him, and thus the unity

1110
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:06,479
of the essence.

1111
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So ninth century it's becoming clear. It's not

1112
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:15,800
dogmatically clear yet, but this is where things get really

1113
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:20,760
interesting with the Franks the Carolinians. Yeah, and this is

1114
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,560
a great chapter. We'll be doing a stream in the

1115
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:28,239
next few days, by the way, with Snack about the

1116
01:10:28,239 --> 01:10:31,520
the Frankish thesis, because this is of course a controversial issue,

1117
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:35,479
but that's going to be fascinating. The term itself, to

1118
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,680
keep in mind, is still not yet quote Philly Oquay,

1119
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:39,640
that term.

1120
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 6: Is still not yet the issue.

1121
01:10:42,119 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 2: But we're going to start to see some geopolitical problems

1122
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:49,840
that arise through the Frankish papacy, through the election of Charlemagne,

1123
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,960
which the way Shashinsky words it is it becomes a

1124
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,000
declaration of independence in terms of.

1125
01:10:56,880 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 7: Well even prior to that, so Charlomne's father happened, you know, Pippen.

1126
01:11:05,039 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 2: He says, it's the old order destroyed.

1127
01:11:07,039 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 7: Right, Yeah, that's right.

1128
01:11:09,079 --> 01:11:10,199
Speaker 6: So that's very unfortunate.

1129
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 8: Now Pope is supreme authority and politically and religiously.

1130
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 6: Yes, So we have the.

1131
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 2: Debate about the level at which the procession, What does

1132
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:32,159
it mean, what is through mean? Is it hypostatic? Is

1133
01:11:32,199 --> 01:11:36,359
it energetic, Is it substantial? What does it mean to

1134
01:11:36,399 --> 01:11:38,720
say that there's a relationship with the spirit coming through

1135
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:39,039
the sign?

1136
01:11:39,319 --> 01:11:41,399
Speaker 5: Are we still from seventh to eleventh centuries?

1137
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:47,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to go small page ninety and then

1138
01:11:47,199 --> 01:11:51,840
we go to John and then we have Yeah, Saint

1139
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:54,600
JOHNA Mascus is usage here that what's interesting about this

1140
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:59,640
is the Frankish theologians and the Carolinian rejection of the

1141
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:04,399
Second Council of Nicia too. That's that's pretty significant, I

1142
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:08,359
would say, And that's why this counts as a declaration

1143
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:12,920
of independence from Byzantheum on the part of these guys.

1144
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:14,920
So it's not just a political thing. It's a political

1145
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:16,960
thing that results in the rejection of the of the

1146
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:25,800
Seventh Ecumenical Council anyway, So akin the Council of Aacon

1147
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:29,039
here is important. Coronation of Charlemagne, and then we hear

1148
01:12:29,119 --> 01:12:34,520
we have the pretty clear confusion of in our view,

1149
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:37,840
the Holy Spirit with the bond of love. I think

1150
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:43,520
that's the big problem there, because, as Palamas will later say,

1151
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:49,880
reflecting on that point, the Latins confuse the Spirit's good

1152
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:54,439
the energy of goodness that the Spirit manifest and shows

1153
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:59,399
forth with the Spirit himself, so we can't confuse energy

1154
01:12:59,479 --> 01:12:59,840
with hype.

1155
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:02,600
Speaker 7: That's the problem, by the way, just pointing out so

1156
01:13:03,359 --> 01:13:08,920
as you said that, remember Charlemagne rejects the seventh Documentical Council.

1157
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:12,600
I found it interesting.

1158
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 8: Hadrian comes to the defense of Patriarch Tarsius and claims

1159
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,880
that Tarcia had not pronounced this dogma by himself, So

1160
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:31,039
this is specifically Patriarch Tarcius stated, the Holy Spirit is

1161
01:13:31,079 --> 01:13:33,279
not from the Father and son, according to the most

1162
01:13:33,279 --> 01:13:35,840
true and holy rule of faith, but proceeds from the

1163
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:37,199
Father through the son.

1164
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:42,199
Speaker 7: So here we're getting the issue of utiliarcure getting more pronounced. Hadrian,

1165
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:44,640
since Charlemagne rejects that.

1166
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:48,279
Speaker 8: Pope Hadrian comes to the defense of Patriarch Tarsius and

1167
01:13:48,319 --> 01:13:52,199
said he didn't pronounce this dogma by himself, but quote

1168
01:13:52,239 --> 01:13:54,800
he confessed it by the doctrine of the Holy Fathers.

1169
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,880
And then he warns his readers, particularly Charlemagne, the rejection

1170
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,720
of this teaching was up them, up to rejection of

1171
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:02,800
the Ecumenical Council.

1172
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:06,159
Speaker 2: And I think I would add too that that I

1173
01:14:06,199 --> 01:14:10,800
don't think Sishensky mentioned, which might have been a little

1174
01:14:11,239 --> 01:14:14,439
a bit of a scholarly error. On his part. I mean,

1175
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:16,960
we can all make these mistakes. There's too much material

1176
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,680
out there to read. But uh, he doesn't seem to

1177
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,479
notice the Confession of Saint Sophronius, which is accepted at

1178
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:25,479
the sixth Council. And that's relevant because there's no Philly Okuay.

1179
01:14:26,199 --> 01:14:28,239
I mean it's not even really, there's not even anything

1180
01:14:28,279 --> 01:14:31,159
you could kind of hint at to find the doctrine,

1181
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:34,119
the later Latin doctrine in the six Ecumenical Council.

1182
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:37,399
Speaker 5: So he stops his Greek fathers at Carol for some reason.

1183
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 2: So if this Confession of San Sophronius, accepted at the

1184
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:44,479
sixth Council doesn't mention Philly oak Way, that's pretty significant.

1185
01:14:46,279 --> 01:14:50,840
Speaker 5: Well he did say it's not pleastories, that's the way out.

1186
01:14:51,039 --> 01:14:53,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. But the reason, the reason this matters is that

1187
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:59,159
this is a document accepted at an ecumenical council, right,

1188
01:14:59,199 --> 01:15:04,640
and the Confession of Sophronius goes into the accepted triadology. Now,

1189
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:08,359
if Philly Oquay was a doctrine taught, it would be there.

1190
01:15:08,399 --> 01:15:10,479
It should be there. It's not there. The father alone

1191
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:11,079
is the soul.

1192
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:16,039
Speaker 5: Archae It's also at the Council of archin that you

1193
01:15:16,079 --> 01:15:18,600
start getting this idea that the that the East was

1194
01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,119
an error for not having the philioquay.

1195
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 6: Good point, right, good point.

1196
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,039
Speaker 2: So that would mean that that would mean that Sophronius

1197
01:15:26,039 --> 01:15:28,000
and the sixth Council were in error for not having

1198
01:15:28,039 --> 01:15:33,520
it in the confession. That's funny. Maybe we could talk

1199
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:37,680
too about let's not forget Leo, because of course Leo

1200
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:41,199
and the famous forbidding of Leo comes into play here.

1201
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:43,199
You guys want to talk on that, I'm gonna pour

1202
01:15:43,239 --> 01:15:44,640
some more coffee if you guys want to talk about

1203
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:45,319
Leo a little bit.

1204
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:50,239
Speaker 8: In the Jerusalem controversy, I wanted to just quote from

1205
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:54,840
the Council of arch and oh yeah, because it's still Leo.

1206
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:58,680
Speaker 5: But are we still were ninety nine, aren't we? Yeah?

1207
01:16:00,199 --> 01:16:04,039
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1208
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 5: The addition of the Philioque by imperial fiat, this is

1209
01:16:08,039 --> 01:16:11,319
a quote seemed a direct challenge to Leo's authority as

1210
01:16:11,359 --> 01:16:18,600
head of the church, because Leo wasn't I think this

1211
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:23,800
is Leo the third. I think he wasn't happy with it.

1212
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:27,279
I said, aside from the difficulties it might cause in

1213
01:16:27,319 --> 01:16:29,600
the East, the pope knew that altering the creed was

1214
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:32,399
not something a local council was authorized to do, even

1215
01:16:32,399 --> 01:16:35,439
if it did so with the empress blessing. Like Hadrin

1216
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:40,159
before him, Leo was caught between Constantinople and Aiken, determined

1217
01:16:40,199 --> 01:16:43,840
to thwart Charlemagne's meddling in ecclesiastical affairs despite his own

1218
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:47,039
strong belief in the spirit's procession from the sun. Yes,

1219
01:16:47,079 --> 01:16:51,000
so I don't think. I don't think Leo the third

1220
01:16:51,119 --> 01:16:54,720
is such a great argument because he still believed in

1221
01:16:56,319 --> 01:16:59,079
procession from the sun. Whether or not that was the

1222
01:16:59,119 --> 01:17:05,960
Florentine version is you know, up for debate. But he

1223
01:17:06,119 --> 01:17:09,199
was concerned mostly with the lessayity of the addition of

1224
01:17:09,199 --> 01:17:11,760
the clause to the Creed. He was very much against it.

1225
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, and you can see how this issue of the coordination, right.

1226
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:19,199
Speaker 6: That was That was my point.

1227
01:17:20,239 --> 01:17:23,680
Speaker 5: Lea says, he can't add, he's not permitted to add.

1228
01:17:24,399 --> 01:17:26,880
He is quote we do not presume in our reading

1229
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:29,600
or teaching to add anything to the Creed by insersion quote.

1230
01:17:30,119 --> 01:17:33,319
And Eske says, since that was forbidden by the councils.

1231
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:35,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's appeal to ephesis.

1232
01:17:36,239 --> 01:17:43,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I put this.

1233
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:44,399
Speaker 5: Quote they acted upon divine illumination. Talking about the council

1234
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:49,680
father's the acumen who council. They acted upon divine illumination

1235
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:52,600
rather than by human wisdom. Far be it from me

1236
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:54,920
to count myself there equal unquote.

1237
01:17:56,199 --> 01:17:59,039
Speaker 2: Another relevant essay I recommend people read in regard to

1238
01:17:59,079 --> 01:18:02,920
this this issue, which I've shared many times, is father

1239
01:18:03,119 --> 01:18:07,600
of George Dionysius Drugis. He's a pretty well known Greek

1240
01:18:07,680 --> 01:18:12,000
Orthodox scholar. He has a really great essay on this

1241
01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:14,039
very issue. So I'll put that in the Chat for

1242
01:18:14,079 --> 01:18:16,319
everybody to read if they want to investigate that. It

1243
01:18:16,359 --> 01:18:18,720
will also relate to the Franks and to There's a

1244
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:22,039
great quote that to my knowledge, is not translated anywhere

1245
01:18:22,079 --> 01:18:26,600
else from Saint Photius here where Photius does explain that

1246
01:18:27,239 --> 01:18:33,079
the issue becomes the Bulgarian missionaries that are evangelizing the

1247
01:18:33,199 --> 01:18:36,880
Philioque right. So they're basically going into Orthodox territories and

1248
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:41,199
saying you have to now accept this creed at the

1249
01:18:41,199 --> 01:18:45,760
best of the Carolinians, and you can't be Orthodox anymore.

1250
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:46,560
Speaker 6: You have to accept this one.

1251
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:50,399
Speaker 2: So that what I'm getting at is that Sashynsky backs

1252
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:55,039
up that notion that the claim that Photius makes there

1253
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:03,920
okay Odius go aheads.

1254
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,079
Speaker 7: In the so called PODi Schism mm hmm.

1255
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:10,399
Speaker 5: The next Oh, it's important to mention the two shields

1256
01:19:10,399 --> 01:19:11,800
that Leo. I don't know if you guys said that.

1257
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:13,760
Speaker 2: That's why I was bringing up Leo as the shields.

1258
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:17,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, so quote it was at this time that Poplo,

1259
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,640
out of love he bore for the Orthodox faith quote unquote,

1260
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,079
placed two silver shields in Rome with the uninterpolated Creed

1261
01:19:24,159 --> 01:19:26,680
in both Greek and Latin.

1262
01:19:27,079 --> 01:19:29,159
Speaker 2: And as I understand these, these are still there in

1263
01:19:29,239 --> 01:19:34,039
Rome today. And so this purportedly was part of the

1264
01:19:34,079 --> 01:19:38,560
basis for the Vatican allowing the Uniates to recite the

1265
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,560
Creed without the philioquay, So within the Romancalic Church you

1266
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:43,680
have two different creeds read which.

1267
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:45,800
Speaker 5: And the Franks didn't listen to the Pope. They just

1268
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:49,039
kept on singing the creed with the Philio who cares

1269
01:19:49,039 --> 01:19:50,279
about for us.

1270
01:19:50,319 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 2: This signifies that there isn't really a unified belief in

1271
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:57,399
the Roman Calic communion. You have two different creeds that

1272
01:19:57,439 --> 01:19:59,640
can be recited, which I think if you read these

1273
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:02,319
fathers in the minds of the fathers of the first millennium,

1274
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:05,079
you can't have two different creeds. That's not to say

1275
01:20:05,079 --> 01:20:07,520
that there can't be theological writings like the Tone that

1276
01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:11,640
explicate the creed, but the creed itself is not subject

1277
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:14,520
to these sort of constant revisions. It's not like the Constitution,

1278
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:18,159
where we, oh, let's amend the Constitution. It is true

1279
01:20:18,159 --> 01:20:22,800
that Constantinople amended Nicea, but it's at Constantinople where we

1280
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:26,159
begin to have the canonical statement that we don't want

1281
01:20:26,199 --> 01:20:27,560
to alter this from from here on.

1282
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:35,520
Speaker 5: So, yeah, you guys can talk about the photein schism

1283
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:38,840
because I haven't read the Vaornick's book, but I will

1284
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:42,880
when I get to reading Furchas more. I've already read

1285
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:45,560
the Mystergogy, but I want to read a secondary scholarship

1286
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:50,039
or on it, because yeah, secondary scholarship is really really useful,

1287
01:20:50,439 --> 01:20:56,680
to put it that way.

1288
01:20:54,039 --> 01:20:56,560
Speaker 2: So everybody in the chat, if you would, if you

1289
01:20:57,039 --> 01:20:59,479
want to read more on this topic too. Also the

1290
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:05,520
important essay there from Dionysius Dragas on the Folks on

1291
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:08,880
the on the potune issue. And then what Dvornik does is,

1292
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:13,640
as we said, he kind of uh, I guess you

1293
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,720
could say revisionism. I mean, I don't want to over

1294
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:21,039
exaggerate revisionism, because for us it's really kind of just

1295
01:21:21,159 --> 01:21:21,760
what happened.

1296
01:21:22,199 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 5: Revisionism is, you know, it's so sometimes it's a word

1297
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:28,119
that's kind of poo pooped, but it can be good,

1298
01:21:28,119 --> 01:21:28,359
you know.

1299
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:32,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly if it's conceding points, then it could it

1300
01:21:32,279 --> 01:21:35,840
can be good. Exactly. So I think it's I mean,

1301
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:38,239
I think even William Albrick is a big fan of

1302
01:21:38,239 --> 01:21:41,760
the book. Uh he you know, it's it's a Uniate

1303
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:45,359
scholar who's basically said, look, you know, we can't say

1304
01:21:45,359 --> 01:21:47,399
that Phosius did all this wrong, you know, I mean,

1305
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:51,880
there's a lot that vindicates the position of Photius. And again,

1306
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:55,039
you know, we kind of see two different notions in

1307
01:21:55,039 --> 01:21:59,319
the Romancolic Church of Uniates who venerate Photius as opposed

1308
01:21:59,359 --> 01:22:04,079
to the or ultramontane trads that think he's a heretic.

1309
01:22:04,199 --> 01:22:07,319
So yeah, this I don't think that's really coherent. But

1310
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:13,000
obviously Photius is a very strong proponent of a single

1311
01:22:14,279 --> 01:22:16,880
cause of the person the Father. There's not much dispute

1312
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:20,720
about that. The mystigodgy is pretty clear in its argumentation,

1313
01:22:20,880 --> 01:22:23,479
and he follows a pretty strict train of logic too

1314
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:26,800
in the mystigogy, which is interesting. I still think the

1315
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:29,479
book holds up as I said. So the reason I

1316
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:34,720
argue that is because in the Vatican Clarification on the Philioquay,

1317
01:22:36,039 --> 01:22:38,479
when it gets down to the point where it compares

1318
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:43,600
the Latin and the Eastern conceptions, it admits the very

1319
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:47,680
point that Photius makes, that there's still tension between these

1320
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:50,560
two views, precisely on the point of causation.

1321
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:52,640
Speaker 6: And so that's.

1322
01:22:52,399 --> 01:22:56,640
Speaker 2: What Photius elucidates in the mystagogy, and that's precisely centuries

1323
01:22:56,720 --> 01:23:03,640
later what Florence will make the key point of the Yes,

1324
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:09,119
anybody have anything else on the Podius in this period?

1325
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 5: I mean, I think one thing that I'm going to

1326
01:23:12,560 --> 01:23:16,079
mention now that Oh, actually I won't spoil that. But

1327
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:20,239
Pope Nicholas is the first pope, and this is unanimous

1328
01:23:20,239 --> 01:23:24,239
in scholarship, Pope Nicholas is the first pope to get

1329
01:23:24,319 --> 01:23:26,800
duped by the Studiosidaurian decree tours.

1330
01:23:27,159 --> 01:23:30,079
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, that's a that's a good one. I didn't

1331
01:23:30,119 --> 01:23:30,319
know that.

1332
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:32,720
Speaker 5: So he starts doing stuff that he thinks he can

1333
01:23:32,800 --> 01:23:36,720
do that's in line with the canonical tradition that he has,

1334
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:43,279
but it's forgeries, which doesn't mean that he was bad guy,

1335
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:46,399
just means that he was in raw because he thought

1336
01:23:46,399 --> 01:23:49,920
what he had was like his an actual canonical tradition,

1337
01:23:50,119 --> 01:23:53,000
and pretty much all the majority of the canonical scholars

1338
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:55,359
back then we're getting duped by it as well. There's

1339
01:23:55,520 --> 01:23:59,520
forgeries except for a few, yeah, which which one of

1340
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:01,399
which we will be posting on Ubi Petris.

1341
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 2: Now, next few figures, I don't really they're not that important.

1342
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:06,920
They're kind of minor f minor figures. I don't really

1343
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:09,319
care that much about anything. You guys want to point

1344
01:24:09,359 --> 01:24:13,600
out about Anius or Ratrondness.

1345
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:15,439
Speaker 6: They don't really matter anything.

1346
01:24:16,359 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 5: The Pope still hasn't approved the vilio quiddition in the

1347
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,359
Cli Creed. We're in the ninth century, right.

1348
01:24:22,279 --> 01:24:25,199
Speaker 2: So then we move up to eleven to thirteen, things

1349
01:24:25,199 --> 01:24:27,840
start to get a little more interesting. This is where

1350
01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:33,079
it gets to the point of departure. So let's see

1351
01:24:35,199 --> 01:24:39,319
the key figures Peter, Peter of Peter the third of

1352
01:24:39,319 --> 01:24:42,920
Antioch Versus and then in the east. Then you've got

1353
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:45,920
in the west people like Peter Damien and anselm.

1354
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:49,680
Speaker 5: Oh and by the way, Photius died in communion with Rome.

1355
01:24:50,199 --> 01:24:52,359
Speaker 2: By the way, yeah, I think that Devornet makes a

1356
01:24:52,359 --> 01:24:54,600
good point of that. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

1357
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,600
Uh so, yeah, we know figures like Anselm, you know,

1358
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:02,199
they're going to follow the pretty Augustinian approach to these questions.

1359
01:25:02,239 --> 01:25:10,239
Peter Lombard, Richard of Saint Victor as well, if I recall,

1360
01:25:10,279 --> 01:25:13,159
they're pretty Augustinian. I don't think there's But what we're

1361
01:25:13,159 --> 01:25:18,439
starting to see is Richard began his examination examination attorney

1362
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:20,359
with the person of the Father. But you'll notice this

1363
01:25:20,399 --> 01:25:23,039
is where we start to see more and more. It's

1364
01:25:23,039 --> 01:25:26,159
in the Scholastic period where where we start to see

1365
01:25:26,199 --> 01:25:30,079
more and more focus on essentialism, more and more movement

1366
01:25:30,119 --> 01:25:33,159
away from the monarchia of the father and into the

1367
01:25:33,239 --> 01:25:37,880
sort of philosophic approach of stressing and beginning the order

1368
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:41,680
theologia with the essence of God, the substance of God. However,

1369
01:25:42,920 --> 01:25:47,000
even still in this early medieval period, the monarchia of

1370
01:25:47,079 --> 01:25:52,119
the Father is still given a place at least right,

1371
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:54,520
I mean, even Aquinas does this To be fair it

1372
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:57,880
Quanta still conceives of the monarchy of the Father in

1373
01:25:58,199 --> 01:25:59,960
a sense I don't think.

1374
01:26:01,079 --> 01:26:04,079
Speaker 5: We also see the secular powers begin to start strong

1375
01:26:04,159 --> 01:26:11,000
arming the pope a lot more. Quote Otto the First Otto,

1376
01:26:11,039 --> 01:26:15,920
the Great energetically involved himself in papal politics, which at

1377
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:19,159
this time was largely a Roman affair, bringing about the

1378
01:26:19,199 --> 01:26:22,439
deposition of both the treason us John the twelfth and

1379
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:25,239
his success of Benedict the fifth, and forcing the cardinals

1380
01:26:25,239 --> 01:26:28,159
to elect and then reconfirm that layman Pope Leo the

1381
01:26:28,239 --> 01:26:29,239
eighth as Pope.

1382
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:29,840
Speaker 6: Yes.

1383
01:26:31,159 --> 01:26:34,479
Speaker 2: And then with Anselm, if I'm getting to ahead of you, guys,

1384
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,439
let me know. With Anselm, we have the beginning of

1385
01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:39,680
the premacy of essentialism. There's one principle who is God.

1386
01:26:40,279 --> 01:26:44,720
So that statement itself implies the confusion of nature in person,

1387
01:26:45,199 --> 01:26:49,439
because the one principle is the father in the previous

1388
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:52,439
conceptions that we've discussed here. It begins to move towards

1389
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:57,399
identifying the order with the substance, and then we.

1390
01:26:57,520 --> 01:27:00,880
Speaker 5: Ad one last thing to the ecclesiastical thing. It is

1391
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:04,760
around one thousand and nine that the pope finally puts

1392
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:11,119
the filiocri clause in the creed and is never again

1393
01:27:11,199 --> 01:27:16,159
commemorated the tics that Constantinople. So there's a cessation of

1394
01:27:16,199 --> 01:27:21,720
commemoration in one thousand and nine, and then ten fifty

1395
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,920
four is the falsechism I just wanted to bring up right.

1396
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:28,680
Speaker 2: So remember, with Anselm, we get one principle.

1397
01:27:28,199 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 6: Who is God.

1398
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:32,279
Speaker 2: We get the identification of the principle of unity not

1399
01:27:32,319 --> 01:27:35,760
in the person of the Father, but in the common substance.

1400
01:27:36,359 --> 01:27:39,359
Speaker 6: And then we have the notion in Anselm.

1401
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:42,159
Speaker 2: Pretty explicitly that the spirit is strictly identical to the

1402
01:27:42,239 --> 01:27:45,079
love of the Father and the Son. So we don't

1403
01:27:45,119 --> 01:27:49,000
have that in Anselm's mind. We don't have that the

1404
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:55,319
nuance of distinguishing between hypostatic origin and eternal manifestation.

1405
01:27:56,159 --> 01:27:56,560
Speaker 6: At all.

1406
01:28:01,199 --> 01:28:03,640
Speaker 2: And by the way, I would add two, we didn't

1407
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:06,359
touch on this with Augustin, but to my knowledge, there's

1408
01:28:06,399 --> 01:28:09,800
not any notion of that distinction in Augustine either. There's

1409
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:15,079
no conception of a distinction between hypesightic origin and energetic manifestation,

1410
01:28:15,159 --> 01:28:18,720
because Augustin doesn't have any notion of energies. He's pretty

1411
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:24,159
clear about his conception of simplicity. Anything else. Anything on

1412
01:28:24,199 --> 01:28:29,479
these the next few guys, now, Bonaventure and Aquinas we

1413
01:28:29,520 --> 01:28:32,279
can speak to that. They're the probably the big figures here,

1414
01:28:34,079 --> 01:28:36,279
Lewis you have anything on these other guys.

1415
01:28:43,359 --> 01:28:50,680
Speaker 5: Well, there's the debate between uh, oh, we're not looking

1416
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:54,920
at the same Oh, there's another Anselm. There's Anselm of Havelberg,

1417
01:28:56,119 --> 01:28:58,000
which I'm looking at because he has a debate with it.

1418
01:28:58,199 --> 01:29:00,479
This is kind of one of the earliest proper debates.

1419
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:11,079
Oh okay between Anselm. It's on page and this is

1420
01:29:11,119 --> 01:29:14,840
when Photius's arguments finally get kind of brought to bear

1421
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:16,880
on the on the Latin position.

1422
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:23,000
Speaker 2: Oh okay. So yeah, my mistake, I was actually reading

1423
01:29:23,079 --> 01:29:25,000
one twenty two. I thought that was I didn't notice

1424
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:29,560
that that was the ansel of Haberberg. You're right.

1425
01:29:30,319 --> 01:29:32,359
Speaker 6: Around the same time, But yeah, it is. But he

1426
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:34,520
but he does the same thing that and some.

1427
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:40,600
Speaker 5: Yeah he does the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He

1428
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:46,039
has a debate with a Nicetis of Nicomedia. Okay, yeah,

1429
01:29:46,079 --> 01:29:50,159
and that's so good because I don't think and some's

1430
01:29:50,359 --> 01:29:53,960
so let me just read this. Nicetis asked, quote, what

1431
01:29:54,119 --> 01:29:56,159
or rather, what sort of thing do you think that

1432
01:29:56,319 --> 01:29:58,840
it is that the procession of which we speak? Does

1433
01:29:58,840 --> 01:30:00,640
it seem true to you that the Holy Spirit should

1434
01:30:00,760 --> 01:30:03,159
be said to proceed according to the common substance or

1435
01:30:03,239 --> 01:30:07,800
according to a separate individual person. Anselm realized that this

1436
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:10,000
question was something of a trap if he said that

1437
01:30:10,039 --> 01:30:12,039
procession was from the divine substance, he would have to

1438
01:30:12,039 --> 01:30:14,960
address the critique of Photius that the spirit, being consumstantial

1439
01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:16,920
with the father and the son, must then cause not

1440
01:30:16,960 --> 01:30:19,399
only his own existence but the procession of another person.

1441
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,359
If you claim the procession was the property of hypostasis,

1442
01:30:22,359 --> 01:30:25,039
then he then excluded the possibility of both the father

1443
01:30:25,119 --> 01:30:27,800
and the son's being involved without falling into the area

1444
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:30,680
of Ara of Sabellius. And so I'm basing himself on

1445
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:33,880
the Augostinian Trinitarian model claimed that as the bond of

1446
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:36,239
love between father and son, the spirit proceeded not from

1447
01:30:36,279 --> 01:30:39,720
their persons or substance, but according to their mutual relation,

1448
01:30:40,399 --> 01:30:43,279
and is the one sent by both, sending a gift

1449
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:46,600
from both, giving a love from both, loving and which

1450
01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:48,520
is like a Maga dodge in mind.

1451
01:30:48,680 --> 01:30:53,000
Speaker 2: This is where we'll get the problem of proceeding from nature,

1452
01:30:53,520 --> 01:30:57,560
proceeding from common relation, proceeding from will. Right, this is

1453
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:01,319
what's problematic in later dogmatic theology like We're Ought, for example,

1454
01:31:01,359 --> 01:31:03,680
says that the Holy Spirit that it's dogma that the

1455
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:07,239
Hoyspirit proceeds by will. Catechism of Trent also says up

1456
01:31:07,279 --> 01:31:09,399
by the way that that the Holy Spirit proceeds from

1457
01:31:09,399 --> 01:31:11,239
the will of the Father and the Son. And this

1458
01:31:11,319 --> 01:31:14,840
is problematic because remember Athanasius had argued that the generation

1459
01:31:15,039 --> 01:31:18,239
of the sun cannot be by will. The sun is

1460
01:31:18,279 --> 01:31:20,640
not a product or effect of the Father.

1461
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:23,359
Speaker 5: That's the end of discourse three. Yeah, against the Arians,

1462
01:31:23,399 --> 01:31:25,720
because it makes me wonder, know, like, how is it

1463
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:27,920
that the how is it that the spirit proceeds from

1464
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:31,399
a relation exactly, but the sun proceeds from the person

1465
01:31:31,720 --> 01:31:32,760
subsistence of the Father.

1466
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:36,319
Speaker 2: Because you have the confusion of relations with person and

1467
01:31:36,359 --> 01:31:38,800
relations with nature and relations with everything that it just

1468
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:41,960
gets confused. By the way, there's a great section in

1469
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,640
the last chapter of Stuneyeloy Volume one that makes that

1470
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:48,439
argument as well. We can't forget Stuneeloyd has all these

1471
01:31:48,479 --> 01:31:53,479
same ads anti ads arguments. So next we have for

1472
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:55,239
me I'll see bonavtchu.

1473
01:31:55,399 --> 01:31:58,239
Speaker 8: Wait a minute ahead, let's just say uh, just quickly

1474
01:31:58,319 --> 01:32:02,279
in passing to there's a short little section about the

1475
01:32:02,279 --> 01:32:06,479
fourth Crusade YEA, and this is a zach who you

1476
01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:10,359
win constable is sapped right between the from like Thersaders

1477
01:32:10,359 --> 01:32:18,000
and their Venetian mm HM lives under Pope innocent third

1478
01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:22,600
mm hmm. So, I mean it's not a large section.

1479
01:32:22,399 --> 01:32:25,399
Speaker 7: But just so we where we know where we are

1480
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:27,960
historically situated at this point.

1481
01:32:28,239 --> 01:32:30,199
Speaker 2: Father Deacon, did you did you need to head out?

1482
01:32:30,199 --> 01:32:31,520
I don't want to keep you here. If you feel

1483
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:33,399
like you need to go, you're welcome to all. We

1484
01:32:33,399 --> 01:32:34,880
want you to stay if you but if you're.

1485
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:36,560
Speaker 7: No, no, no, it's fine, I'll stand.

1486
01:32:36,720 --> 01:32:37,000
Speaker 6: Okay.

1487
01:32:37,159 --> 01:32:39,319
Speaker 7: I didn't know how long when did we start.

1488
01:32:39,920 --> 01:32:42,520
Speaker 2: We've been going for one thirty so we definitely want

1489
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:45,000
to get through. I mean we can do as much

1490
01:32:45,039 --> 01:32:46,880
as you guys want. We want to get I don't

1491
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:49,119
really care so much about the modern stuff, but I

1492
01:32:49,119 --> 01:32:51,439
mean Philly, I mean Florence is of course.

1493
01:32:51,399 --> 01:32:53,239
Speaker 7: Let's get Yeah, let's get through, get through Florence.

1494
01:32:53,319 --> 01:32:56,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, let's just skip you guys. You have to

1495
01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:59,680
read this. He will be a massive advantage if you

1496
01:32:59,760 --> 01:33:02,680
talk Catholics about the quit if you read this from

1497
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:05,960
cover to cover. If you don't read this, you're going

1498
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:10,319
to just be putting pieces of shatter glass together trying.

1499
01:33:10,039 --> 01:33:18,640
Speaker 8: To so Bonaventure, so he defends the filio oquay for

1500
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:20,800
some more argue the Holy Spirit proceeding as a mature

1501
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:23,640
gift love both the father and son, and that person

1502
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,119
is the trinity can be distinguished from one another only

1503
01:33:27,119 --> 01:33:30,039
by virtue of the origin. Every distinction of persons among

1504
01:33:30,199 --> 01:33:34,560
the divine is according to relation and origin. So this

1505
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:37,239
is more of this kind of essentialism, right, that relation

1506
01:33:37,479 --> 01:33:41,239
origin in terms of essence rather than person. Then he

1507
01:33:41,279 --> 01:33:43,479
goes on to say, therefore, if the Holy Spirit does

1508
01:33:43,520 --> 01:33:46,920
not proceed from the sun nor the other way around,

1509
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:49,439
there's no origin there. So do you see that kind

1510
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:54,039
of presupposition of essentialism is what leads him to.

1511
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:57,720
Speaker 7: Actually say what he does there. And then a quitness

1512
01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:00,640
I think is going to pick up exactly just more

1513
01:34:00,720 --> 01:34:02,800
nuanced and with more vigor.

1514
01:34:04,319 --> 01:34:07,640
Speaker 2: Right. He's also fair to Aquinas to a degree. I

1515
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:10,319
think he's Uh. What my view is that Aquinas is

1516
01:34:10,319 --> 01:34:12,560
trying to do the same thing as Augustine. There's a

1517
01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:15,000
there's a tendency where on the one time, on the

1518
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:18,239
one hand, he wants to stress unity and substance and

1519
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:22,520
kind of give it uh ontological priority to the essence.

1520
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:25,680
But then also at other places he wants to recognize

1521
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:28,920
the monarchy of the father. Uh. And but we do

1522
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:32,119
find the same mistakes that we would not accept in

1523
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:40,319
Aquinas like the you know, identifying love with a hypostatsis

1524
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:45,720
identifying attribute with hypostasis relations of opposition.

1525
01:34:45,319 --> 01:34:47,199
Speaker 6: Or in Aquinas UH. And then.

1526
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:54,439
Speaker 2: Aquinas relying on the forgery UH known as the contra recorum,

1527
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:57,079
which everybody admitses a bunch of forgeries.

1528
01:34:57,239 --> 01:34:58,520
Speaker 7: I'm glad you brought that up.

1529
01:34:59,279 --> 01:35:01,000
Speaker 2: And we covered the in the stream with me and

1530
01:35:01,079 --> 01:35:02,840
Snack and George if people want.

1531
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:03,560
Speaker 6: To go back and hear that.

1532
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,960
Speaker 2: But next we come to the key stuff with Lions.

1533
01:35:06,960 --> 01:35:10,800
So twelve seventy four Lions is of course the dogmatic

1534
01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:15,720
clear point of departure between the two because Lions makes

1535
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:21,920
clear that there is a special situation between the father

1536
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:25,720
and the son that produces the spirit in terms of

1537
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:30,119
his hypostasis. So that is the key point. John Becas

1538
01:35:31,159 --> 01:35:33,600
tries to be a kind of Latin minded figure to

1539
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:38,840
bring things together. Unfortunately he holds a unionist position exactly

1540
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:39,760
and unfortunately, and.

1541
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:42,159
Speaker 7: Then opposing that, you have Gregory of Cypress.

1542
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:44,520
Speaker 2: Right, So Gregory Cypress, we as Orthodox, we have to

1543
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:47,399
side with Gregory of Cypress. We have to we have

1544
01:35:47,479 --> 01:35:50,960
to accept the tomos against John Becos. So there's not

1545
01:35:51,079 --> 01:35:53,439
much dispute on that, and then we get that.

1546
01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:56,560
Speaker 5: I would say one thing is that Gregory the second

1547
01:35:56,560 --> 01:36:01,159
of Cypress is he does the energetic meniphest station argument

1548
01:36:01,279 --> 01:36:05,279
before long, but before Palamas. Palamas picks up from him.

1549
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:08,920
So it seems to me that it seems to me

1550
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:11,319
that if we're going to be revited, you know, rehability anything,

1551
01:36:11,439 --> 01:36:13,159
someone to be made a saying it shouldn't be origin,

1552
01:36:13,199 --> 01:36:14,239
it should be people like.

1553
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:16,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a great point, Lewis.

1554
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:20,880
Speaker 2: I wondered too, Why isn't Gregory of Cyprus a saint?

1555
01:36:22,079 --> 01:36:22,720
Speaker 6: I've wondered that.

1556
01:36:24,039 --> 01:36:25,920
Speaker 2: So again, this is the point where everybody, if you

1557
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:29,199
want to go deeper into this topic, definitely read Papadocus's

1558
01:36:29,279 --> 01:36:33,159
book Crisis and Byzantium. It's really really good on this

1559
01:36:33,279 --> 01:36:37,760
issue of Gregory Cyprus and Palomas and the Palomite Synods.

1560
01:36:38,359 --> 01:36:40,760
So yeah, we have the response. So we have Lions

1561
01:36:41,079 --> 01:36:43,880
the Latin statement, and then you have Blackerane the Orthodox

1562
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:47,279
response to the Latin statement. So this is why we

1563
01:36:47,399 --> 01:36:52,159
can't agree as Orthodox that we're all just saying the

1564
01:36:52,199 --> 01:36:52,640
same thing.

1565
01:36:53,520 --> 01:36:55,920
Speaker 5: This is what a scholar says. This is an academic scholar.

1566
01:36:56,680 --> 01:36:59,560
And yet the Synod of Blackney, whose decisions were never

1567
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:03,880
overturned and became and remained. The official Orthodox response to

1568
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:05,720
the Latin doction of the procession is to find it

1569
01:37:05,840 --> 01:37:09,439
Leon and Gregory's teaching on the procession the de facto

1570
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:15,560
teaching of the Orthodox Church. Yes, and obviously Patriarch Gnadios

1571
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:19,319
Scolarios also thinks it's dogmatic.

1572
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:24,880
Speaker 8: So great point, great point, yeah, And so those three

1573
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:33,800
points from Black Nay that let's see Gregory introduces as

1574
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:37,760
far as terminological distinctions, I thought was really important. So

1575
01:37:37,800 --> 01:37:41,520
this will become dogmatized. So our Orthodox to hold to

1576
01:37:42,119 --> 01:37:46,359
one eternal existence, the hypostatic existence of the spirit is

1577
01:37:46,399 --> 01:37:53,479
from the Father alone, eternal manifestation. The spirit's eternal illumination

1578
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:58,640
or manifestation is through the sun, but not his hypostatic existence.

1579
01:37:58,760 --> 01:38:04,640
And three oral manifestation in the colony of salvation, the

1580
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:05,520
spirit can.

1581
01:38:05,399 --> 01:38:07,560
Speaker 7: Be said to proceed from the Father and the Son.

1582
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:11,479
Speaker 8: So that's really important now that we have that terminological in.

1583
01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:17,800
Speaker 2: The energetic manifestation energetic procession is there's there's nothing the

1584
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:20,159
problem with using these phrases just now.

1585
01:38:20,079 --> 01:38:21,239
Speaker 7: That's exactly.

1586
01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:26,680
Speaker 5: Yes. So his a point to make important point is

1587
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:31,199
if you ever see a filioquay thread discussion, and you

1588
01:38:31,319 --> 01:38:35,760
think you can contribute, don't just mention the fact that

1589
01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:39,760
there's the procession from the father alone that's hypostatic, and

1590
01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:42,880
the economic procession from the father and son into the world,

1591
01:38:43,359 --> 01:38:46,199
because any any room Catholic who's been involved in this

1592
01:38:46,239 --> 01:38:48,720
debate for a while is going to start posting you

1593
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:52,359
quote minds of Fathers that mentioned the eternal relationship between

1594
01:38:52,399 --> 01:38:54,640
the son and the spirit, and you're going to get stumped.

1595
01:38:55,039 --> 01:38:57,239
So you have to remember that there is a third

1596
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:03,079
procession that is the energetic session of the son, of

1597
01:39:03,159 --> 01:39:06,039
the story of the spirit from the Father through the son.

1598
01:39:06,960 --> 01:39:10,319
Speaker 2: And remember also that that is predicated on the essence

1599
01:39:10,399 --> 01:39:13,439
energy distinction. You can't have an energetic procession if you

1600
01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:15,319
don't believe in the it's energy distinction.

1601
01:39:15,880 --> 01:39:16,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a good point.

1602
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:22,239
Speaker 5: It's not a it's not a it's not a hypostatic procession.

1603
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:26,680
It's and literally energetic procession. I think it's the best

1604
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:29,159
term to I don't think a ton of a turn

1605
01:39:29,199 --> 01:39:34,640
of manifestation kind of notionally picks out the energies beingated Greek.

1606
01:39:35,159 --> 01:39:39,520
Speaker 8: I mean that's an English word manifestation, but the Greek

1607
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:40,880
is actually procession.

1608
01:39:41,720 --> 01:39:48,319
Speaker 7: Oh okay, yeah, and energetic procession, So that's a better

1609
01:39:48,800 --> 01:39:50,000
Maybe they're just using that.

1610
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:55,079
Speaker 8: To distinguish it for us in the English, but it's

1611
01:39:55,159 --> 01:39:56,960
right there in Gregory.

1612
01:39:57,079 --> 01:40:00,000
Speaker 7: And then let's see power mass.

1613
01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:02,680
Speaker 2: Well, that has its roots not just in yeah, I

1614
01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:06,279
mean in in Dionysius, because Dionysius says that the he

1615
01:40:06,399 --> 01:40:08,880
calls the energies the divine processions.

1616
01:40:09,319 --> 01:40:11,399
Speaker 7: Right. Yeah.

1617
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:14,880
Speaker 8: But if anybody wanted the phrase where in the Father

1618
01:40:15,039 --> 01:40:19,399
is energy sessions, well we've got right here. Gregor is

1619
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:23,000
Cyprus and then Palamas, Yeah.

1620
01:40:22,319 --> 01:40:24,359
Speaker 2: Which is in the Papadocus book too, by the way.

1621
01:40:24,399 --> 01:40:27,880
So if somebody wants an orthodox explicit source, read Cristus

1622
01:40:27,880 --> 01:40:30,680
and by Ante and there's two or three chapters just

1623
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:32,840
on internal eternal manifestation.

1624
01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:34,560
Speaker 5: Yeah. I don't know what else is going to clue

1625
01:40:34,560 --> 01:40:37,119
you into this theology other than the Papadacus book and

1626
01:40:37,199 --> 01:40:37,640
this book.

1627
01:40:37,960 --> 01:40:42,840
Speaker 2: So all right, Florence, So here with the capstone if

1628
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:44,439
we want to, if we're ready to move on.

1629
01:40:44,399 --> 01:40:46,159
Speaker 6: Past this, by the way, I would add two.

1630
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:52,199
Speaker 2: Uh so the debate after like we sing, you know,

1631
01:40:52,239 --> 01:40:54,079
in the this is one of the key arguments Flerofsky

1632
01:40:54,159 --> 01:40:56,159
makes that this is dogmatic. I mean there's two days

1633
01:40:56,199 --> 01:40:58,600
you know, dedicated to this in the liturgy at least,

1634
01:40:59,359 --> 01:41:01,159
So we sing them about palam Mass and we sing

1635
01:41:01,199 --> 01:41:04,600
about the energies, and uh, you know, this is pretty

1636
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:08,840
clear confirmation that the entire world Orthodox world has accepted

1637
01:41:09,319 --> 01:41:12,279
palerm Mass and Blackerne. So that for us would constitute

1638
01:41:12,279 --> 01:41:15,960
that you know, you can't yeah, you can't really say, well,

1639
01:41:16,079 --> 01:41:18,199
you know, this is just a theologument now within a

1640
01:41:18,239 --> 01:41:18,920
bunch of things.

1641
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:19,720
Speaker 6: No, it's not.

1642
01:41:20,560 --> 01:41:20,760
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1643
01:41:20,920 --> 01:41:23,680
Speaker 8: Typically one of people want to make this is if

1644
01:41:23,720 --> 01:41:25,960
Palamas is one tradition among many that you get to

1645
01:41:25,960 --> 01:41:29,279
pick from.

1646
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:33,560
Speaker 5: Yes, I'd like to say one thing before we start.

1647
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:40,680
Florence the quote although none of the patriarchs could attend

1648
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:44,840
because of Turkish occupation, so this is Florence. They did

1649
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:48,439
appoint proxies to act in their steads, like legates anthonya

1650
01:41:48,479 --> 01:41:53,560
Heracle and Mark of Ephesus of Alexandria and Joseph of

1651
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:58,680
Ephesus and Gregory the Empress Confessor for Antioch and the Sadists,

1652
01:41:58,720 --> 01:42:02,079
and it's for is so Mark of Ephesis is representing

1653
01:42:02,319 --> 01:42:08,680
one of the patriarchal sees, so his signature matters. Do

1654
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:11,439
people argue about that, Well, yeah, they'll say, well, all

1655
01:42:11,479 --> 01:42:12,760
the patriarchs signed on to it.

1656
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That's the common sort of immediate track Catholic response.

1657
01:42:18,119 --> 01:42:21,520
Speaker 5: And also an interesting point, not not that it's particularly matters,

1658
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:26,680
but Aquinas didn't get to attend Leon because he unfortunately

1659
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:30,119
diedge I actually think it would have been a good thing.

1660
01:42:30,399 --> 01:42:32,000
Speaker 7: I think it would have been a good thing too.

1661
01:42:32,079 --> 01:42:37,239
I mean, you have kind of a.

1662
01:42:35,319 --> 01:42:37,760
Speaker 8: As much as you know, we can dig into Aquinas,

1663
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:41,439
you have an economical spirit that I think, yeah, for

1664
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:43,000
the innosdence that we wanted to bring.

1665
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:47,039
Speaker 2: Well also too, if he had, you know, if the

1666
01:42:47,239 --> 01:42:49,960
probably part of what would have been maybe hashed out

1667
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:52,000
would be if he had, if he had been relying

1668
01:42:52,039 --> 01:42:54,600
on against the airs of the Greeks. A lot of

1669
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:58,359
what they debate at Florence is the validity of texts. Yeah,

1670
01:42:58,479 --> 01:43:01,399
and so the Greeks know pretty well which ones are

1671
01:43:01,399 --> 01:43:04,279
authentic and which ones are fake, as much.

1672
01:43:04,199 --> 01:43:07,880
Speaker 5: As there's lots of unfortunate historical things that happened that

1673
01:43:08,159 --> 01:43:13,119
sort of exacerbate the union like that, and also even

1674
01:43:13,159 --> 01:43:16,000
before that, the what was it, Charlemagne wanted to marry

1675
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:19,199
Bysantine Empress or something like that, and it just didn't happen.

1676
01:43:19,359 --> 01:43:19,560
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1677
01:43:19,560 --> 01:43:22,720
Speaker 2: Another unfortunate thing was the forbidding of debating and energies

1678
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:23,199
at Florence.

1679
01:43:23,399 --> 01:43:24,079
Speaker 5: That was the other one.

1680
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:30,079
Speaker 8: Well, what was interesting too about Florence is that because

1681
01:43:30,159 --> 01:43:34,079
the Greeks weren't the best position know about corrupted or

1682
01:43:34,159 --> 01:43:37,960
forged texts, I found it very interesting that they they

1683
01:43:38,039 --> 01:43:41,640
didn't even allow that argument. It kind of reminded me

1684
01:43:41,680 --> 01:43:43,960
of like when people shut down people were saying, that's

1685
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:47,760
a conspiracy theory. It's like, do you remember that through

1686
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:51,119
Florence they were saying, yeah, that's crazy. They were like,

1687
01:43:51,520 --> 01:43:55,279
and you can't use the argument that these are species

1688
01:43:55,399 --> 01:43:58,359
texts or forgeries. And it's like, well, but what if

1689
01:43:58,399 --> 01:44:02,359
they are they are, wouldn't that make all the difference. Yeah,

1690
01:44:02,399 --> 01:44:05,479
you're not allowed. You're not allowed to do that. And

1691
01:44:05,560 --> 01:44:10,039
we'll get into this all the things that beyond just

1692
01:44:11,039 --> 01:44:14,119
the theology that seemed to be problematic about Florence and

1693
01:44:14,159 --> 01:44:15,199
what the Latins we're doing.

1694
01:44:18,039 --> 01:44:20,520
Speaker 2: All right, So I would add too, there's another great

1695
01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:23,319
book that's a little older. It's kind of out of print,

1696
01:44:23,319 --> 01:44:27,920
so you can if you want something just on Florence

1697
01:44:27,920 --> 01:44:30,640
from the Orthodox perspective, it's history of the Counts of

1698
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:36,720
Florence by Oustromov, and that one's good because what Sishensky

1699
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,640
does is in a lot of the texts here he

1700
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:43,439
actually vindicates Oustromov. So Ostromov's Books is an older text

1701
01:44:43,880 --> 01:44:46,439
that discusses this as maybe one hundred years old or

1702
01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:50,039
something like that, but a lot of what Sishensky says

1703
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:55,359
vindicates Ostromov. So that's worth noting showing that that text

1704
01:44:55,359 --> 01:44:58,319
is still readable and relevant. So what we get, of

1705
01:44:58,359 --> 01:45:01,560
course is the stressing that the father is the soul

1706
01:45:01,800 --> 01:45:05,960
cause by saint mark of emphasis. Of course, because for

1707
01:45:06,119 --> 01:45:09,359
us Mark of emphasis becomes a saint because of what

1708
01:45:09,439 --> 01:45:10,319
happens at Florence.

1709
01:45:12,399 --> 01:45:13,279
Speaker 7: Yes, good point.

1710
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:17,319
Speaker 2: He stresses that the difference between generation and procession is

1711
01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:20,039
beyond us knowing. We know, we don't know what the

1712
01:45:20,039 --> 01:45:22,439
difference is, but we know that that there is a difference.

1713
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:25,560
And so he says the Latins are confused, and that

1714
01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:30,119
they are confusing these different senses of through the sun

1715
01:45:30,319 --> 01:45:34,159
and from the sun and hypothetic origin, and that there's

1716
01:45:34,199 --> 01:45:36,880
no procession from the substance. So he will repeat a

1717
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:41,800
lot of the arguments of Saint Phosius and again he

1718
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:48,239
stresses the soul Monarchia. Florence does cite Augustine to try

1719
01:45:48,239 --> 01:45:51,399
to argue that the father and the son together are

1720
01:45:51,399 --> 01:45:54,079
the cause of the hypostatus of the spirit. That's the

1721
01:45:54,159 --> 01:45:58,640
key point of departure because we stress hyposthetic origin and

1722
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:02,479
eternal manifestation. And in the final negotiations on page one

1723
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:06,119
sixty two and one sixty three, anything else you guys

1724
01:46:06,119 --> 01:46:06,600
want to bring.

1725
01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:14,479
Speaker 5: Up, we start seeing forgeries.

1726
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:19,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, the text.

1727
01:46:19,079 --> 01:46:22,560
Speaker 5: Of the creed from the Seventh Council has the phrase

1728
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:23,920
ex filio added to the creed.

1729
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:28,640
Speaker 2: Oh that's a good one.

1730
01:46:29,119 --> 01:46:31,079
Speaker 7: Let's see, we've got some debates about basil.

1731
01:46:32,359 --> 01:46:32,520
Speaker 5: Oh.

1732
01:46:32,560 --> 01:46:36,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, they had to debate which text basil were authentic

1733
01:46:36,119 --> 01:46:38,079
and which ones weren't. And I think modern scholarship has

1734
01:46:38,159 --> 01:46:40,800
vindicated that the what is it the books four and

1735
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:44,680
five of what against the Eunomius, they're not authentic?

1736
01:46:46,159 --> 01:46:47,560
Speaker 5: Oh cool, less for me to read.

1737
01:46:48,399 --> 01:46:51,720
Speaker 8: So because the Latins were using that to say, like,

1738
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:53,000
see basils on our side.

1739
01:46:53,039 --> 01:46:57,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So, once again, for the virtue of the chat,

1740
01:46:57,479 --> 01:47:00,880
I will put in the saint mark of Ephesus peace

1741
01:47:01,159 --> 01:47:06,239
at innergetic procession. That's a great read on the union.

1742
01:47:06,319 --> 01:47:08,199
And by the way, one thing I've noticed too that

1743
01:47:08,319 --> 01:47:10,439
came to before for me when I was reading the

1744
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:14,319
Austromo book was that what's happening at Florence at the time,

1745
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:19,720
it's very close and mirrors the problems of the Cumanism

1746
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:23,840
in our day. It's like a mirror problem of an attempt,

1747
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:25,119
an attempt at union.

1748
01:47:25,199 --> 01:47:26,640
Speaker 5: There's nothing new under the sun.

1749
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:29,680
Speaker 2: As Ecclesiastics, I mean, when I was reading Austromo, I

1750
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:31,239
mean notes on that, like, this is a mirror to

1751
01:47:31,319 --> 01:47:34,680
our day, right, and what is the warning of Ganaudia's

1752
01:47:34,720 --> 01:47:37,840
right saying Ganadias says, uh, this is going to lead

1753
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:43,439
to the collapse of Byzantium, and it did, right, Yeah.

1754
01:47:43,279 --> 01:47:44,520
Speaker 7: That's an excellent point.

1755
01:47:47,520 --> 01:47:52,800
Speaker 8: Should we talk of just about some of the what

1756
01:47:52,920 --> 01:48:03,720
I found disturbing so beyond the uh, the just the

1757
01:48:03,720 --> 01:48:10,840
theological arguments, was that, so what do you have You

1758
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:14,880
basically have you know, these geopolitical issues going on too,

1759
01:48:15,520 --> 01:48:21,640
and so you have you have the cause of aples

1760
01:48:21,640 --> 01:48:25,960
surrounded by the Turks, and so from Byzantium you want

1761
01:48:26,159 --> 01:48:27,279
union because.

1762
01:48:29,399 --> 01:48:30,880
Speaker 7: You want help.

1763
01:48:30,680 --> 01:48:36,159
Speaker 8: From the West, from the Muslim automn Turks m and

1764
01:48:36,319 --> 01:48:40,439
so what you see throughout the Council of Florence. Is

1765
01:48:40,479 --> 01:48:50,600
this kind of pressure from the Yeah, the Emperor and

1766
01:48:51,039 --> 01:48:56,520
the patriarch too, I would say, in some sense, and.

1767
01:48:56,439 --> 01:49:00,319
Speaker 5: The Pope the Pope. Let us make this point clear,

1768
01:49:00,600 --> 01:49:05,319
lesch Chesskey makes is that Popging the fourth genuinely wanted

1769
01:49:05,359 --> 01:49:08,119
a reunion, like he wasn't just trying to you know,

1770
01:49:08,479 --> 01:49:10,720
political He obviously it would have been good for him

1771
01:49:10,720 --> 01:49:12,680
to have the political union, but he did want a

1772
01:49:12,760 --> 01:49:13,960
union of the churches as well.

1773
01:49:16,520 --> 01:49:19,560
Speaker 8: So what it seems like the problem is is that,

1774
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,800
so especially with Mark, he wants to hold the view

1775
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:29,640
that the Father is the sole cause of the spirit.

1776
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:35,880
Then you've got those all in between. Who, well, let's

1777
01:49:35,960 --> 01:49:38,359
just clarify this. So there ends up being this kind

1778
01:49:38,399 --> 01:49:43,239
of compromising language. Okay, well we just reiterated this way.

1779
01:49:43,279 --> 01:49:44,520
Would you be happy with that?

1780
01:49:45,439 --> 01:49:45,680
Speaker 6: Right?

1781
01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 8: And then there's arguments and like no, so there's this

1782
01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:53,319
kind of tension. No, we've got to have it exactly

1783
01:49:53,600 --> 01:49:58,319
like that the Father is the sole arcade cause of

1784
01:49:59,439 --> 01:50:07,079
And then actually Mark loses out and they agree, and

1785
01:50:07,119 --> 01:50:09,760
then watch what the Latins do. Well, that's not good enough.

1786
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:11,479
Then they moved the gold cost. Well, you have to

1787
01:50:11,479 --> 01:50:14,000
say it this way now, so then there's this like

1788
01:50:14,439 --> 01:50:17,319
falling apart, and then they'd have to come back together.

1789
01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:24,479
And then they said, okay, can we agree to this?

1790
01:50:24,560 --> 01:50:27,359
So they agree to that, and of course Mark and

1791
01:50:27,399 --> 01:50:30,560
then who else is it that the one other person

1792
01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:34,279
that doesn't ever sign off on this? It's a Saint

1793
01:50:34,359 --> 01:50:38,600
Mark of emphesis, and he's got these two heroes from

1794
01:50:38,600 --> 01:50:39,279
the Orthodox.

1795
01:50:43,359 --> 01:50:43,920
Speaker 7: Do you remember?

1796
01:50:46,640 --> 01:50:48,720
Speaker 5: Sorry, can you repeat that lastpit? Remember what?

1797
01:50:49,119 --> 01:50:52,079
Speaker 2: So we have Saint Mark, the two that didn't sign off.

1798
01:50:53,319 --> 01:50:56,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh, we're already at the end. I wanted to

1799
01:50:56,640 --> 01:50:59,560
bring up the fact that marenis Let's to Marinus was

1800
01:51:00,319 --> 01:51:01,479
rejected as a forgery.

1801
01:51:02,159 --> 01:51:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1802
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:07,600
Speaker 5: It was originally proposed as a formula of union and

1803
01:51:07,640 --> 01:51:09,359
the Latins didn't like it, and then it was.

1804
01:51:09,399 --> 01:51:11,399
Speaker 7: Later rejected as a fortint.

1805
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:12,680
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's a good point.

1806
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:21,159
Speaker 5: It was too changing. The proposition was that the creed

1807
01:51:21,199 --> 01:51:24,680
could say proceed from the father through the son, but Eugene,

1808
01:51:24,920 --> 01:51:26,960
Pope Eugenie was like, no, it's too vague.

1809
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:36,760
Speaker 10: That's right, all right?

1810
01:51:36,880 --> 01:51:43,560
Speaker 7: So oh, I was gonna say lastly, So eventually they

1811
01:51:43,600 --> 01:51:44,079
get to.

1812
01:51:46,199 --> 01:51:49,520
Speaker 5: Yes, sorry, sorry here Bisarion Mark tried to bring forward

1813
01:51:49,560 --> 01:51:53,079
the letter to Marinus's testimony on his behalf Bisarion, who

1814
01:51:53,079 --> 01:51:55,520
had suggested that as a reunion formula only a few

1815
01:51:55,600 --> 01:51:58,439
days ago, simply refused to accept its authenticity.

1816
01:51:59,800 --> 01:52:01,800
Speaker 8: That that's what I'm talking about, So thank you was

1817
01:52:01,840 --> 01:52:04,199
for bringing up that example. So a few days later,

1818
01:52:04,560 --> 01:52:08,479
if you produce this, we'll accept union. You produce it,

1819
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:11,439
and it's like, now that's a forgery. So is this

1820
01:52:11,600 --> 01:52:15,600
not the theme that you keep noticing? They set forward a standard,

1821
01:52:16,199 --> 01:52:18,279
the Laptins. So I mean, just apart from all the

1822
01:52:18,279 --> 01:52:20,800
theological issues, what I thought was really interesting about the

1823
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:24,039
Council of Florence was it seems that the Latins set

1824
01:52:24,079 --> 01:52:30,600
forth a particular theological standard, asked for that you produce it,

1825
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:33,159
and it's like, no, that's not enough, and then pushed

1826
01:52:33,239 --> 01:52:39,399
out and eventually I think that that's what the causes.

1827
01:52:39,520 --> 01:52:43,119
Even those unionists that sign it, when they go back

1828
01:52:43,119 --> 01:52:49,079
to Constantople, they repent, like we betrayed our faith. They

1829
01:52:49,199 --> 01:52:52,119
probably thinking back on what the Latins actually did to

1830
01:52:52,199 --> 01:52:53,079
the Council Florence to.

1831
01:52:53,119 --> 01:52:55,640
Speaker 7: Keep moving the goal post. Among other things.

1832
01:52:55,680 --> 01:52:55,840
Speaker 5: Too.

1833
01:52:55,920 --> 01:53:00,760
Speaker 8: You have the whole stuff with the mass being celebrating

1834
01:53:00,800 --> 01:53:05,399
the feast that they're prepared for them on their fasting.

1835
01:53:07,279 --> 01:53:10,720
Speaker 2: All right, I'm gonna move on to the superchats, and

1836
01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:13,159
then I guess David's debate is going to be starting

1837
01:53:13,159 --> 01:53:18,079
here pretty soon. Let's see David g for five dollars,

1838
01:53:18,079 --> 01:53:20,520
he says, thank you for this exposition. It really appreciate

1839
01:53:20,560 --> 01:53:22,319
what you guys are doing and clarifying. Well, thank you,

1840
01:53:22,399 --> 01:53:26,399
David much appreciate it, and I will aid these guys

1841
01:53:26,439 --> 01:53:29,520
with these mirror pittance superchats.

1842
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:31,560
Speaker 6: But I thank you guys for the mere pittance that

1843
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:32,079
you've given.

1844
01:53:33,119 --> 01:53:36,279
Speaker 2: Max Power for fifty knocks, he says, good evening, dudes,

1845
01:53:36,439 --> 01:53:40,119
good evening to you, Max Power. Why we fight with

1846
01:53:40,279 --> 01:53:43,199
Justin stam ten dollars? Thank you Justin? He says, guys,

1847
01:53:43,199 --> 01:53:46,199
thank you for the stream question. Why does my hair

1848
01:53:46,399 --> 01:53:51,039
light on fire? When Thomas say quote Palaminism and when

1849
01:53:51,119 --> 01:53:53,000
do you think it will be outlawed from being you?

1850
01:53:55,439 --> 01:53:56,239
Speaker 7: That's pretty good.

1851
01:53:56,600 --> 01:53:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think that they look at it like

1852
01:54:00,279 --> 01:54:02,960
the way, you know, within Catholicism you can have a

1853
01:54:02,960 --> 01:54:05,920
lot of different schools, so to speak, and so Pallemism

1854
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:08,880
is viewed as like a you know, theologumina, like an

1855
01:54:08,880 --> 01:54:12,199
intellectual school, like you said, father, deacon. But I think

1856
01:54:12,039 --> 01:54:15,760
that the case is pretty in my view, pretty pretty strong,

1857
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:18,520
pretty open and shut. That palmism, it actually just is

1858
01:54:18,520 --> 01:54:22,079
the expression of Orthodoxy from our perspective.

1859
01:54:22,439 --> 01:54:26,000
Speaker 7: Especially because the use of it that you see within

1860
01:54:26,319 --> 01:54:31,079
the debates in the philio way. Yeah, that that it's

1861
01:54:31,159 --> 01:54:31,600
used as.

1862
01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:34,479
Speaker 8: Dogma and it comes dogmatized because the philioquay is a

1863
01:54:34,479 --> 01:54:35,520
dogmatic issue.

1864
01:54:35,760 --> 01:54:38,000
Speaker 2: And its passage into the liturgy, I mean it's just

1865
01:54:38,039 --> 01:54:38,399
so cool.

1866
01:54:38,479 --> 01:54:39,159
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's great.

1867
01:54:39,319 --> 01:54:42,600
Speaker 2: I mean the liturgy that the day, you know, within

1868
01:54:42,720 --> 01:54:45,960
lant of Saint Geria Palomas.

1869
01:54:45,319 --> 01:54:47,479
Speaker 5: Well also in the at the end of Florence. So

1870
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:54,600
Unadius Scolarious I think attended Florence, but he succeeded mark

1871
01:54:54,640 --> 01:55:00,000
of ephesis to uh the patriarchal throne, and he said

1872
01:55:00,199 --> 01:55:03,920
the black Canae is the de facto position of the

1873
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:07,279
Church on the procession. And he says gregorve Cyprus. The

1874
01:55:07,279 --> 01:55:11,560
second is, you know, he's no lesser than any of

1875
01:55:12,239 --> 01:55:16,039
our of our holy writers on the procession phra.

1876
01:55:16,319 --> 01:55:19,119
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, remember who are the pillars of Orthodoxy?

1877
01:55:19,479 --> 01:55:20,520
Speaker 6: You know, keep that in mind.

1878
01:55:20,600 --> 01:55:23,399
Speaker 2: We have the icon of the pillars, so we have

1879
01:55:23,479 --> 01:55:26,560
to agree with the teaching of those fathers in the

1880
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:30,520
icon of the Pillars of Orthodoxy, right, we can't say, oh, well,

1881
01:55:30,520 --> 01:55:36,039
they just had neat opinions. Friend with trees ten Canadian,

1882
01:55:36,079 --> 01:55:38,279
thank you for that heart. We like that little heart

1883
01:55:38,399 --> 01:55:41,560
and the ten Canadian much appreciate email for five. He says,

1884
01:55:41,560 --> 01:55:44,439
off topic, but do you think father Deacon, could you

1885
01:55:44,560 --> 01:55:50,479
address the Bradshaw Gough debate discussion earlier today? It would

1886
01:55:50,479 --> 01:55:54,119
be useful if you could break that down. That'd be great. Oh,

1887
01:55:54,159 --> 01:55:56,119
by the way, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, David's debate is

1888
01:55:56,159 --> 01:55:59,960
on Craig Trillia's channel, so not go ahead, father Deacon,

1889
01:56:00,079 --> 01:56:02,239
do you think you could Would you be interested in

1890
01:56:02,279 --> 01:56:04,199
addressing that discussion they had?

1891
01:56:04,800 --> 01:56:05,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, I thought that was great.

1892
01:56:07,439 --> 01:56:08,960
Speaker 8: I did see in the chat it seemed like a

1893
01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:15,159
lot of people were confused. So perhaps presenting kind of

1894
01:56:15,199 --> 01:56:19,600
a more summary and concise explanation would be helpful for

1895
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:23,119
the listeners about what was actually going on.

1896
01:56:23,199 --> 01:56:24,760
Speaker 7: And this would be a jay This would be a

1897
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:27,880
continuation of our kind of thing about Schotis.

1898
01:56:29,600 --> 01:56:33,079
Speaker 8: And I could get more into the tomism about what

1899
01:56:35,199 --> 01:56:42,159
a formal versus virtual distinctions versus real ontological distinctions are

1900
01:56:43,319 --> 01:56:47,319
and ultimately I'm going to argue that these really don't matter,

1901
01:56:49,199 --> 01:56:55,079
that you're going to have the same problem. So I

1902
01:56:55,159 --> 01:56:57,359
didn't conclude as they did that.

1903
01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:01,880
Speaker 7: There for because of this, the.

1904
01:57:01,840 --> 01:57:07,079
Speaker 8: Two positions are reconcilable. As you see, as we went

1905
01:57:07,119 --> 01:57:09,399
through here, I think we find out.

1906
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:14,239
Speaker 5: Thought that they were, you know, reconcilable in the sense

1907
01:57:14,239 --> 01:57:16,960
that they were the same. Like I don't think that

1908
01:57:17,000 --> 01:57:17,760
was what he was saying.

1909
01:57:18,079 --> 01:57:21,680
Speaker 8: No, no, I know, Brad, But I think that Michael

1910
01:57:21,920 --> 01:57:24,439
was trying to suggest that, well, we could just adapt

1911
01:57:24,479 --> 01:57:26,640
our language and ye, the more.

1912
01:57:26,680 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 7: Scholasticism, and then we can just unifory. That's what it was.

1913
01:57:32,159 --> 01:57:37,640
Is it a church dividing issue, Well, it's the same

1914
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:40,159
arguments that's going on with the phil Is it a

1915
01:57:40,239 --> 01:57:41,520
church dividing issue?

1916
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it ultimately it does become exactly it becomes.

1917
01:57:45,600 --> 01:57:48,039
Speaker 7: I don't think it started off that way. And like

1918
01:57:48,079 --> 01:57:52,079
you said, because of the different the.

1919
01:57:51,199 --> 01:57:54,399
Speaker 8: Type of theological project that they take by embracing kind

1920
01:57:54,439 --> 01:58:00,439
of the phil Hellenistic project and the order theol day

1921
01:58:00,920 --> 01:58:05,960
and the geopolitical, the linguistic differences, all these factors, and

1922
01:58:05,960 --> 01:58:08,640
then the things kind of double down on the debates

1923
01:58:08,640 --> 01:58:13,000
and stuff like that pushes things into a point of

1924
01:58:13,079 --> 01:58:17,159
no return and right a real church dividing issue.

1925
01:58:17,239 --> 01:58:23,520
Speaker 7: I would say that with the energies distinction and absolutely

1926
01:58:23,560 --> 01:58:24,560
mind simplicity as well.

1927
01:58:24,760 --> 01:58:26,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely all right.

1928
01:58:27,079 --> 01:58:31,720
Speaker 5: I say two things. First of all, let it be

1929
01:58:31,800 --> 01:58:34,079
said that this is my opinion. You guys may just

1930
01:58:34,079 --> 01:58:38,760
scree with. But I liked Old reason and Theology Reason

1931
01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:45,399
and Theology before Patchamma, because it was really just about

1932
01:58:45,439 --> 01:58:48,159
getting people on to talk, like on a forum. But

1933
01:58:48,199 --> 01:58:50,960
then when they pushed Crag out, it became very obvious

1934
01:58:51,079 --> 01:58:54,760
what was going on behind the scenes in my opinion

1935
01:58:54,800 --> 01:58:58,039
at least, and I think it's unfortunate. So I really

1936
01:58:58,079 --> 01:59:02,560
liked that particular interview because with BRA because it reminded

1937
01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:04,159
me of the old times.

1938
01:59:04,640 --> 01:59:07,039
Speaker 2: Well, I would say that also that one good thing

1939
01:59:07,079 --> 01:59:10,159
out of today was they get to reach out to

1940
01:59:10,279 --> 01:59:13,279
mathomat and classical theists. So we have we have met,

1941
01:59:13,359 --> 01:59:16,640
we have mended our all the personal issues, and we

1942
01:59:16,680 --> 01:59:20,600
have decided that we could you know, have fruitful discussions

1943
01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:23,840
if we we we simply recognize that we all know

1944
01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:26,840
we disagree. We don't have to go into the sort

1945
01:59:26,880 --> 01:59:30,439
of the personal invective and the way that we could

1946
01:59:30,479 --> 01:59:34,760
approach discussions is to say, look, uh, let's both sides.

1947
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:37,439
Just try to understand why you have the position that

1948
01:59:37,479 --> 01:59:39,479
you do. And so what I told them was, look,

1949
01:59:39,520 --> 01:59:41,239
anything that you guys want to send me that you

1950
01:59:41,319 --> 01:59:44,159
want me to read, uh, you know we can do that.

1951
01:59:44,399 --> 01:59:46,479
I don't have any anything personal against you guys.

1952
01:59:46,560 --> 01:59:47,680
Speaker 6: So that was good.

1953
01:59:48,439 --> 01:59:52,279
Speaker 5: We're all passionate about theology. Yeah, because of that, sometimes

1954
01:59:52,279 --> 01:59:57,800
it gets heated and that's okay. And please, guys, for

1955
01:59:57,840 --> 02:00:01,119
those of you listening, please all the books J recommends.

1956
02:00:01,119 --> 02:00:03,279
He doesn't just recommend, just so you can like try

1957
02:00:03,279 --> 02:00:07,880
and absorb this gloss we do on stream like biobs muses,

1958
02:00:08,640 --> 02:00:13,279
actually read them, like actually read them, because that's where

1959
02:00:13,279 --> 02:00:16,359
you're going to get the knowledge, not from It's good

1960
02:00:16,359 --> 02:00:19,119
what we do here, but you need to read the books.

1961
02:00:19,800 --> 02:00:21,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of nuance that, like Lewis said,

1962
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:25,159
that you'll get in the secondary scholarship, but you also

1963
02:00:25,239 --> 02:00:27,560
need to be familiar with the primary sources too. And

1964
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:29,640
the more that you dive into this stuff, you know,

1965
02:00:29,680 --> 02:00:32,720
it takes a long time. There's no shortcut around, you know,

1966
02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:35,279
doing the readings. If you are into this, I mean

1967
02:00:35,319 --> 02:00:37,840
some people you're not into this, that's fine. Not everybody

1968
02:00:37,880 --> 02:00:40,720
is called to do the same stuff. But I think

1969
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:44,800
that if we maybe rather than being excessively polemical the

1970
02:00:44,800 --> 02:00:47,079
way I have been in the past, maybe a better

1971
02:00:47,119 --> 02:00:49,760
approach for me would be to say things I'm not saying.

1972
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:51,760
I won't do formal debates, but maybe a better approach

1973
02:00:51,840 --> 02:00:53,960
would would be for me to say, look, you know,

1974
02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:57,119
if you have a disagreement with me, here's the book

1975
02:00:57,159 --> 02:00:59,920
that I would recommend you read. You recommend to me

1976
02:01:00,079 --> 02:01:01,840
what book you want me to read. So maybe that'll

1977
02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:05,359
be a more fruitful approach than the excessive polemics.

1978
02:01:05,439 --> 02:01:11,560
Speaker 5: So anyway, it leaves more doors open for sure, because

1979
02:01:11,880 --> 02:01:13,760
you know, now you might be able to have another

1980
02:01:13,840 --> 02:01:16,880
chat with classical theist, which, like I said to you,

1981
02:01:16,960 --> 02:01:20,640
I mean like classical theist and Mathoma the basic metaphysics stuff.

1982
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:24,560
I learned a lot from listening to them in terms of,

1983
02:01:24,680 --> 02:01:28,600
you know, the philosophy one I want, metaphysics what I want.

1984
02:01:29,079 --> 02:01:31,920
So I was sad when you guys were you know, fighting.

1985
02:01:31,760 --> 02:01:34,239
Speaker 2: Well, when you said to me too that when you

1986
02:01:34,279 --> 02:01:37,159
were talking about phaser and when you were talking about Tomism,

1987
02:01:37,239 --> 02:01:38,920
and you know, we had a lot of chats in

1988
02:01:38,960 --> 02:01:42,479
the discord about the areas that there are. There's plenty

1989
02:01:42,520 --> 02:01:46,520
of places where we would agree with these metaphysical structures

1990
02:01:46,520 --> 02:01:49,319
being real in the world. And you know, Maximus is

1991
02:01:49,359 --> 02:01:52,840
a great character because he does a similar thing to

1992
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:58,119
Aquinas where he tries to synthesize ideas from the Neoplatonists,

1993
02:01:58,159 --> 02:02:04,159
ideas from Aristotle, ideas from Stoics, different the Porphyrian tree.

1994
02:02:04,439 --> 02:02:08,239
He tries to utilize truth in these different systems, but

1995
02:02:08,399 --> 02:02:10,760
not necessarily in a n isomorphic way. So what you

1996
02:02:10,840 --> 02:02:13,079
realize the deeper that you get into the topics is

1997
02:02:13,119 --> 02:02:15,840
that it gets more and more nuanced. Doesn't mean there's

1998
02:02:15,880 --> 02:02:19,039
not truth. It just means that it's not always as

1999
02:02:19,159 --> 02:02:21,760
easy as you know, just pull this quote out and

2000
02:02:21,800 --> 02:02:22,319
then you're done.

2001
02:02:22,439 --> 02:02:22,600
Speaker 6: Right.

2002
02:02:22,600 --> 02:02:26,600
Speaker 2: It's just more nuanced than that. So I don't have

2003
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:28,960
any problem. I mean, there's probably areas plenty of areas

2004
02:02:29,000 --> 02:02:31,159
where I'm sure Mathamone knows more than I do. I

2005
02:02:31,159 --> 02:02:33,920
don't have a problem being corrected. You know, he said

2006
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:37,640
something correct in the chat today that that he was

2007
02:02:37,680 --> 02:02:39,600
correct about. So if somebody's right, we just need to

2008
02:02:39,600 --> 02:02:41,039
be you know, we need to be right. And another

2009
02:02:41,079 --> 02:02:44,159
thing too, like it's okay to be wrong about something like,

2010
02:02:44,199 --> 02:02:46,720
it's not that big of a deal any of these topics.

2011
02:02:46,720 --> 02:02:48,319
Speaker 6: There's no way anybody can.

2012
02:02:48,199 --> 02:02:52,000
Speaker 2: Like automatically be right on all these topics. It's part

2013
02:02:52,039 --> 02:02:54,840
of the normal process that we're all going to be

2014
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:58,960
making mistakes, we're going to get things wrong. And I

2015
02:02:59,000 --> 02:03:00,359
think that if we can just stru I have to

2016
02:03:00,399 --> 02:03:03,239
be on good terms with people, that's at least the

2017
02:03:03,319 --> 02:03:04,279
approach I'll want to take.

2018
02:03:06,640 --> 02:03:11,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's the that's the best way in my opinion.

2019
02:03:12,920 --> 02:03:16,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, cool beans. Anything else anybody wants to add?

2020
02:03:16,319 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 2: Remember, here is the So the debate is about to

2021
02:03:18,680 --> 02:03:21,640
happen over on Crags Channel in forty five minutes.

2022
02:03:22,439 --> 02:03:24,880
Speaker 7: By the way, this is the book. Did we pop

2023
02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:26,119
that up for everybody to see?

2024
02:03:27,479 --> 02:03:27,680
Speaker 4: Uh?

2025
02:03:28,159 --> 02:03:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll put a link. Well, I've mentioned it in

2026
02:03:30,680 --> 02:03:33,000
the description. But there you can see Father Deacon is

2027
02:03:33,039 --> 02:03:33,560
showing the.

2028
02:03:35,319 --> 02:03:38,760
Speaker 7: How read I'm getting. Now see the divine energies.

2029
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:41,680
Speaker 2: You know they're cooking, getting.

2030
02:03:41,479 --> 02:03:43,239
Speaker 7: Book phase turning red.

2031
02:03:43,159 --> 02:03:44,000
Speaker 6: You're getting cooked.

2032
02:03:44,720 --> 02:03:49,640
Speaker 5: H So the Debates has another book. He has another

2033
02:03:49,640 --> 02:03:52,399
book called It's kind of supposed to be similar style.

2034
02:03:52,680 --> 02:03:56,239
It's the Papacy and the Orthodox. I haven't read it.

2035
02:03:56,439 --> 02:03:58,199
I don't know how good it is. I've heard it's

2036
02:03:58,199 --> 02:04:02,840
a bit a bit two conciliatory in places, Okay, but

2037
02:04:03,239 --> 02:04:06,039
read it yourself, don't take my word for it.

2038
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:07,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2039
02:04:07,079 --> 02:04:10,479
Speaker 2: There's also a similar book to from the Orthodox perspective.

2040
02:04:10,520 --> 02:04:12,880
Papa Doccas has a great book on the Eastern Church

2041
02:04:12,880 --> 02:04:17,399
and the schism so separate from the Crisis and Byzantium book.

2042
02:04:17,399 --> 02:04:20,560
Speaker 6: That's also another good book for this. All right, thank you, everybody.

2043
02:04:20,680 --> 02:04:22,800
Speaker 2: Be sure to go over to Craigs Channel there and

2044
02:04:22,880 --> 02:04:26,560
get ready for the Big David, the real med White

2045
02:04:26,640 --> 02:04:30,840
versus two Coptics. This is going to be fascinating, so uh,

2046
02:04:30,960 --> 02:04:32,760
thank you all, Thank you all. God bless everybody. Have

2047
02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:33,239
a good night.

2048
02:04:33,479 --> 02:04:34,640
Speaker 7: God bless guys.

2049
02:04:35,000 --> 02:04:35,840
Speaker 5: God bless