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Speaker 4: Host Radian, you are now listening to True Murder, The
Speaker 4: most shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors
Speaker 4: that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 4: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 4: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 5: History and the authors that have written about them. Susan
Speaker 5: Berman was reared in the lap of locke Las Vegas
Speaker 5: luxury as the daughter of Davy Berman, a notorious casino
Speaker 5: mogul and mafia leader. It wasn't until college, well after
Speaker 5: her father's death, that she learned what he really was
Speaker 5: and really did. She ultimately dedicated her life to learning
Speaker 5: about Vegas and its underworld bosses, publishing two books on
Speaker 5: the subject, Easy Street and Lady Las Vegas. Her story
Speaker 5: takes a turn for the bazaar in nineteen eighty two
Speaker 5: when Kathy Durst, the wife of college friend and heir
Speaker 5: to a New York real estate fortune Robert Durst, mysteriously disappeared.
Speaker 5: Robert Durst was the prime sussect primary suspect, but no
Speaker 5: charges were laid. Shortly after the Kathy Durst case was reopened,
Speaker 5: Susie Berman, Susan Berman was found shot in the back
Speaker 5: of the head, mob execution style, no forced entry, no robbery,
Speaker 5: nothing missing. Again, Robert is a suspect. Did Susan know
Speaker 5: her killer? Did she have knowledge about Kathy Durst's death?
Speaker 5: Murder of a Mafia Daughter The Life and Tragic Death
Speaker 5: of Susan Berman by my special guest Kathy Scott. I
Speaker 5: do not have Kathy Scott on the air. Maybe she's
Speaker 5: just late getting to the phone to be able to
Speaker 5: call in for the program. I do have, I guess,
Speaker 5: I guess a couple announcements to make as well while
Speaker 5: we wait for her to contact the program. The book
Speaker 5: we're discussing tonight is Murder of a Mafia Daughter, The
Speaker 5: Life and Tragic Death of Susan Berman by Kathy Scott.
Speaker 5: It is really the story that you have seen in
Speaker 5: Casino and more so in the movie Bugsy starring Warren Beatty,
Speaker 5: where there is a primarily involves the arrangement between Meyer, Lansky,
Speaker 5: Davey Berman and Bugsy Siegel and basically the founders of
Speaker 5: Las Vegas as the story goes, members of the Jewish mafia,
Speaker 5: Meyer Lansky being the moneyman, and Bugsy Siegell as you
Speaker 5: see in the movie, very flamboyant and outgoing person that
Speaker 5: wanted to believed in the Las Vegas idea that the
Speaker 5: mob could go and sort of clean up their act
Speaker 5: in Las Vegas, make it for everyone to make a
Speaker 5: ton of cash. And so a lot of people are
Speaker 5: fairly familiar with the story from the Bugsy Seagull movie
Speaker 5: starring Warren Beatty and from Casino starring Robert de Niro
Speaker 5: and a cast of many many reputable mob type actors
Speaker 5: or actors playing mob members. While we wait to get
Speaker 5: Kathy Scott on the line. And this is the second
Speaker 5: time she has been on the program. The first time
Speaker 5: was very early on in near the inception of the program,
Speaker 5: and her book was The Rough Guy to True Crime,
Speaker 5: a compilation of basically the most interesting notorious infamous criminals
Speaker 5: involved in true crime, primarily killers, but also she featured
Speaker 5: some infamous robbery and thieves in her book and mafia members. Anyway,
Speaker 5: what I'm going to tell you about next week is
Speaker 5: that hold onto your seats because especially for our American
Speaker 5: audience that's not as familiar with this story, and in fact,
Speaker 5: I shouldn't even say that no one is familiar with
Speaker 5: this story. Basically people have just gotten snippets from the
Speaker 5: Canadian press. This is another really, really high profile case.
Speaker 5: Robert Willie Picton accused of forty nine murders, actually charged
Speaker 5: with twenty six. Particularly grizzly and bizarre and gruesome tale
Speaker 5: of a serial killer who fed the remains of his
Speaker 5: victims to the pigs that were on his farm. There
Speaker 5: has been a publication ban for a few years till
Speaker 5: the appeal was finally concluded. Earlier this year. A very
Speaker 5: reputable journalist and author has decided to do books. Do
Speaker 5: two books about the pict In case. The first one
Speaker 5: was called The Picton Files and this one is called
Speaker 5: On the Farm Robert William Pickton and the Tragic Story
Speaker 5: of Vancouver's Missing Women. This is Stevie Cameron. She's known
Speaker 5: for writing a book about Canada's Prime minister called On
Speaker 5: the Take, exposing the German I guess arms dealer salesman
Speaker 5: his name is Schreiber, and the relationship between Canada's Prime
Speaker 5: Minister Brian mulroney and her book was called on the take,
Speaker 5: so an investigative journalists not afraid to get her get
Speaker 5: her fingers dirty. I guess looking into into stories, I'm
Speaker 5: not worried about ruffling any feathers. And she has decided
Speaker 5: to write this book on the Farm in seven hundred
Speaker 5: and fifty pages, comes out in hardcover by NONF. Kopff
Speaker 5: and incredible book.
Speaker 6: I've just started this book because I've been very busy,
Speaker 6: but it's just an amazing book. It's one of the
Speaker 6: most spectacular trials and cases in true crime history, absolutely
Speaker 6: without any exaggeration whatsoever, the details of what the police found.
Speaker 6: There are some victims that narrowly escaped death at the
Speaker 6: hands of Robert Picton. It is again, or at least
Speaker 6: another story of police ineptitude at a very very high level,
Speaker 6: ignoring one of their own and chastising them and actually
Speaker 6: demoting them because one of their own had suggested that
Speaker 6: it was a serial killer at work in the Vancouver
Speaker 6: area in British Columbia, Canada, and no.
Speaker 5: One listened to this gentleman. And sure enough, that's what
Speaker 5: they had operating in the Vancouver just outside the Vancouver
Speaker 5: area for many years. There is part of the book,
Speaker 5: and she'll talk about it on the program. I'm sure
Speaker 5: because I'll be asking you this question. There is now
Speaker 5: talk that has leaked out from various stories, and again
Speaker 5: the press has been very hesitant to report very much.
Speaker 5: There's a publication ban, but also there's great outcry in
Speaker 5: Canada over graphic detail the Bernardo Homalka case or any
Speaker 5: type of case where there's graphic testimony, evidence, ruesome details. Canadians,
Speaker 5: unlike Americans, don't want to know. We live somewhat sheltered life.
Speaker 5: And I think I've said it before, Canadians, as Canadians,
Speaker 5: we believe that we're very much different than Americans. We
Speaker 5: believe honestly that Americans much more violent than we are
Speaker 5: as Canadians from what we see, and your higher murder
Speaker 5: rates are just I guess part of that evidence for them. However,
Speaker 5: when we do see the kind of shock and shocking
Speaker 5: and gruesome and bizarre and horrific crimes like we're used
Speaker 5: to hearing somewhat routinely in America, in the bigger cities
Speaker 5: and sometimes not in bigger cities, that Canadians, I then believe,
Speaker 5: are in denial that we are very very similar to Americans.
Speaker 5: And if we were to have the kind of social
Speaker 5: situations or social problems that America has and combined with
Speaker 5: access to handguns and at Canada, very much like the
Speaker 5: United States has, experiences a lot of murder and violence
Speaker 5: as a result of current drug laws. You call it
Speaker 5: pro yes, but the current drug laws. And I won't
Speaker 5: get into any kind of debate regarding that, but the
Speaker 5: fact of the matter is there's a lot of gang
Speaker 5: related and organized crime related murders, not constantly, but certain
Speaker 5: to a certain degree. Anyway, Thank god, we've got Kathy
Speaker 5: Scott on the line, so I'm going to put it
Speaker 5: right on and we'll get going with this program. Thanks
Speaker 5: very much for being comfortable with this and Kathy, are
Speaker 5: you on the line.
Speaker 7: I just got back from San Diego. Thank you for
Speaker 7: your patience.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Kathy, Thank you for joining the program.
Speaker 5: I was boring the audience there. Well, we waited for you,
Speaker 5: so I'm sorry. I apologize, no problem. Thank you very
Speaker 5: much for agreeing to this program. So let me start
Speaker 5: off with I guess one of my stock questions that
Speaker 5: I normally ask of the guests, because I'm very curious,
Speaker 5: what made you come to the decision to write a
Speaker 5: book about Susan Berman, the daughter of infamous Vegas mobster
Speaker 5: Davey Berman.
Speaker 7: Well, what what struck me? I mean, I remember exactly
Speaker 7: where I was when I when I heard the news.
Speaker 7: I was out on a multi day bicycle ride, actually,
Speaker 7: and we had a we had written all day, and
Speaker 7: we had a TV on in the room, everybody just
Speaker 7: kind of preparing for the next day, and the news
Speaker 7: came on. And you know, always Vegas, you know, because
Speaker 7: I live in Vegas, and there's always a Vegas related
Speaker 7: story that's interesting to me. I like to write about underdogs,
Speaker 7: and and they just couldn't seem you know. I followed
Speaker 7: the case, and they couldn't seem to find the killer,
Speaker 7: and so I gravitate towards that sort of thing to
Speaker 7: try to you know. I don't know if I can
Speaker 7: say try to help, but you know, try to get
Speaker 7: to the bottom of it and kind of investigate up myself.
Speaker 7: And I just think it's a sad case. I think
Speaker 7: it's sad that that whoever killed her has not been
Speaker 7: brought to justice. You know. It's I feel like I
Speaker 7: know Susan. I came close to meeting her, but I
Speaker 7: never did, and I think whose story needed to be told.
Speaker 5: Okay, let's go back now a little bit to give
Speaker 5: people a background Davy Berman. We need to know a
Speaker 5: little bit about him. What I thought was interesting living
Speaker 5: in Winnipeg here for the past sixteen years is that
Speaker 5: Davy Berman volunteered for the army up in Canada to
Speaker 5: fight in the Second World War. Tell us something about
Speaker 5: why he joined the Canadian Army and how did he
Speaker 5: fare in the military. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: that stories. I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 7: Yeah, America wanted to take him. You know, he had
Speaker 7: a bit of a record and they wanted you know,
Speaker 7: it was obvious. I mean he was you know, he
Speaker 7: was in the gambling and you know in Minnesota and
Speaker 7: Stephani and everybody knew he hung out with not hung out,
Speaker 7: but he was one of the monsters. He was coming
Speaker 7: up in the ranks and in the and really the
Speaker 7: Jewish mafia back then. And what was that nineteen. I
Speaker 7: think they moved to Vegas around forty five, didn't they,
Speaker 7: right forty I think the same. I think Susan was
Speaker 7: six months old when she moved here, so it was
Speaker 7: long before he'd met her mother and his brother chickie,
Speaker 7: you know, who stayed by his side, you know, his
Speaker 7: whole life. He joined up too, and he he ended
Speaker 7: up being I don't have the book in front of me,
Speaker 7: but he ended up being decorated, you know with what
Speaker 7: he did and did actually actually an exemplary job, and
Speaker 7: he wanted to fight and be part of them, you know,
Speaker 7: help and he and so the Canadians welcomed him with
Speaker 7: open armed right.
Speaker 5: It's just that, Yeah, it's an interesting.
Speaker 7: People wanted to join up in the military back then.
Speaker 7: The guys were dying to get in, sure, you know.
Speaker 5: But now so he he was the honorable discharged from
Speaker 5: the military, and then you had alluded to it a
Speaker 5: little bit. He does have a criminal background for robbery
Speaker 5: and did some time about seven years before any of
Speaker 5: this Las Vegas situation happened. But tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit more about Davy Berman, the character. I found it
Speaker 5: very interesting to say he wanted to volunteer for the military,
Speaker 5: He did an exemplary job. He was decorated. The thing is,
Speaker 5: was they tell us a little bit about his character.
Speaker 5: Was he a hard drinking, womanizing guy? Gambler tell us
Speaker 5: about who Davy Berman was. It's because it seems to
Speaker 5: be very interesting aspect of the contrast Davey Berman the
Speaker 5: gangster and.
Speaker 7: Well he actually his demeanor and whatnot. He was rather quiet, charming,
Speaker 7: but quiet, and he certainly wasn't a Tony Spilatra or
Speaker 7: anything like that. I mean, it's your gentleman, if you
Speaker 7: can call them that, gentleman mafia, you know, and it
Speaker 7: was it was the Jewish mob. And you know, Maya Lance,
Speaker 7: Mayor Lansky came here and you know, Bugsy Siegel of
Speaker 7: course took over the Flamingo and you know, hooked up
Speaker 7: with they all were hooked up together, and they brought
Speaker 7: in in people to help run it. And Davy was
Speaker 7: brought in from was he in Minnesota at that time?
Speaker 7: I think he was brought in to run the Flamingo
Speaker 7: hotel and here they I mean, he went to synagogue
Speaker 7: every Saturday. Like he told Susan, you know, you go
Speaker 7: buy the synagogue and tell her, you know, I built
Speaker 7: that for you. He did it, of course, because I
Speaker 7: verify that people in their eighties who said nope, the
Speaker 7: boys down the street may have donated some money and
Speaker 7: he may have done one of them, but he didn't
Speaker 7: build it. But he was just here in Las Vegas.
Speaker 7: They'd almost come here to legitimize himself because they'd become philanthropists,
Speaker 7: and you know, I mean they named them pillars of
Speaker 7: the community. And there was an understanding that they could
Speaker 7: come here and do business, but they couldn't kill within
Speaker 7: the borders. You want to do anything like that, you
Speaker 7: go outside the border of Nevada and across the state
Speaker 7: line and it's fine. So they they actually legitimized themselves
Speaker 7: here and they were allowed to do the rackets, and
Speaker 7: everybody knew they were skimming, you know, for the mob,
Speaker 7: and that's what he did. But he was a nice man.
Speaker 7: He was you know, Susan was in love with her father.
Speaker 7: You know, she was a daddy's girl, and he was
Speaker 7: a nice man. His father, Shaky, was a little loud
Speaker 7: of hand and not a leader. But Davy was a leader,
Speaker 7: but very quiet and kept he kept at low profile.
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Speaker 5: So a little bit about Susan's mother, Gladys. What was
Speaker 5: she really like and what was her life as a
Speaker 5: wife of a mobster? How do things work with Gladys?
Speaker 7: Well, it actually scared her to death and she you know,
Speaker 7: she didn't know, of course that he was in the
Speaker 7: mafia when she married him, and and he brought her
Speaker 7: in Susie, to Las Vegas to run you know, he
Speaker 7: was going to have a high position in the Flamenia Hotel,
Speaker 7: and of course, you know, jumped forward a little bit.
Speaker 7: Susan of course learned she hadn't learned until she was
Speaker 7: in college what he did. At least that's what she said.
Speaker 7: But there was a you know, one of her I
Speaker 7: know that. You know, her mother had a couple of
Speaker 7: nervorous breakdowns because of the pressure. And you know, they
Speaker 7: when they built their house, they had a cute little
Speaker 7: English tutor on downtown on Seventh Avenue. I believe it
Speaker 7: was six or seventh and Q and now it's a
Speaker 7: little teeny tiny law office. But the back window and
Speaker 7: you can go by it and see it on the alley.
Speaker 7: The back window was really really high in her bedroom
Speaker 7: and they raised it so they're couldn't be a drive
Speaker 7: by shooting. And so Gladys knew what he did. And
Speaker 7: when there'd be mob uprising, he would send them to
Speaker 7: La or he'd go with them and they'd go hang
Speaker 7: out and see at the bel Air or the Beverly
Speaker 7: Hills Hotel and shop and that sort of thing, and
Speaker 7: take her to Sometimes they go to New York, but
Speaker 7: most part they just go to Los Angeles to get away,
Speaker 7: and then when things would settle down, they'd come back
Speaker 7: into town. So Gladys didn't take it well and she
Speaker 7: went away when she left when Susan was still in
Speaker 7: grade school. Soon they put her in what they i know,
Speaker 7: assisted living whatever it was back then, you know, arrest
Speaker 7: home too, and she had shock treatments and all of that.
Speaker 7: So her mother it was it was a sad existence
Speaker 7: for a mother. So she wasn't the typical you know,
Speaker 7: mob wise who enjoyed going to parties and stuff like that.
Speaker 7: It wasn't like that, right, and they kept a low profile.
Speaker 7: I had meetings at the house, you know, all the
Speaker 7: big guys, and there was a bodyguard who basically lived
Speaker 7: with them and took Susan everywhere. I would go to
Speaker 7: La with them.
Speaker 5: So it was it was a pretty uh protected existence
Speaker 5: for Susan and was very separate from what we might
Speaker 5: think is a mob existence or a mob lifestyle. She
Speaker 5: was very isolated like that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, she was. I mean the interesting thing is you
Speaker 7: can go to the library, and I did. I went
Speaker 7: to one of the main main libraries and you can
Speaker 7: pick up the old you can go look at the
Speaker 7: old telephone Book's going to have it in the in
Speaker 7: the book. But you go to and you sum through
Speaker 7: the telephone books and you can look up up there
Speaker 7: on seventh Avenue, sixth Avenue, fourth Avenue. All the mob
Speaker 7: guys went there, just look come up. The names are
Speaker 7: all on the phone book. And that was part of it.
Speaker 7: It was almost like a guy's you know it's it was.
Speaker 7: They were just regular Joe and they were accepted and
Speaker 7: never questioned, and you ask anybody. I did a story
Speaker 7: a while back for I think it was Israeli Light
Speaker 7: or something. It was a few years ago, and interviewed
Speaker 7: a lot of children who went to school during that
Speaker 7: time and they felt safe, and a couple of them said,
Speaker 7: you know, nothing ever happened when we had the mob
Speaker 7: run in the town. It was a safer place and
Speaker 7: people didn't lock their doors and they you know, they
Speaker 7: didn't give anybody in town any trouble. You know, they
Speaker 7: did whatever they did, but you know, nobody talked about it.
Speaker 7: Didn't make the papers much.
Speaker 5: Sure now a name everyone will recognize as that of
Speaker 5: Bugsy Siegel. I'm played by Warren Beatty in Bugsy, and
Speaker 5: please explain it to it, but please explain the actual
Speaker 5: arrangement that existed involving Seagull, davey Berman and Meyer Lansky
Speaker 5: in regards to the Flamingo. And then, as sort of
Speaker 5: an an additional question, what happened after Bugsy was killed?
Speaker 5: So maybe you can tell us about it's it's talked
Speaker 5: about in the movie. I don't you know, you did
Speaker 5: the research, so I don't know how accurate it every
Speaker 5: every aspect of it is, but talk to us.
Speaker 7: I mean I've got yeah, I've got the most most
Speaker 7: of it down. But uh, Davy wasn't the person who ran,
Speaker 7: you know, I mean he helped run the casino when
Speaker 7: he came in. And you know, Buggy Seagull was you know,
Speaker 7: he practically begged to come into into Vegas and said
Speaker 7: he could do it. And you know, they didn't really
Speaker 7: have a high end casino at that time, and it
Speaker 7: was considered the fling. Flamingo was considered way south on
Speaker 7: this strip, you know, as far as south as you go,
Speaker 7: and it was just nothing but desert all around them,
Speaker 7: and he had all these lofty ideas and it he
Speaker 7: bought it from a guy named Is Wilkins. He bought
Speaker 7: the Flamingo from a guy who went belly up. He
Speaker 7: tried to tried to build a hotel and couldn't couldn't
Speaker 7: finish building it, couldn't get it off the ground, couldn't
Speaker 7: get enough backers, and so Busy talked the mob into
Speaker 7: buying it, and you know they bankrolled and then he
Speaker 7: would run it. And you know Bugsy was, you know,
Speaker 7: kicking off a few people on the mob and you
Speaker 7: know whatever, for whatever reason, you know, they they offed
Speaker 7: him and waiting in the casino at that moment, and
Speaker 7: they got a phone call it's done or it's over
Speaker 7: or whatever, and that from the moment he was shot
Speaker 7: and they got worried. They instantly hadn't even made the
Speaker 7: news yet, of course back then wasn't in the papers
Speaker 7: for another day. And they they the moment he was dead,
Speaker 7: they took over the Flamingo and that's why and Davy started.
Speaker 7: He was the head, He was the head guy, and
Speaker 7: it was all the skim and then you know, it
Speaker 7: was the you know, the Jewish model out the Italians in,
Speaker 7: you know, so it's uh and it all sort of
Speaker 7: you know, intertwined itself. But you know, whether that was
Speaker 7: by design or not, you know, to bring him in
Speaker 7: for better appearances and not being Italian or something, I
Speaker 7: don't know, but it seemed to work very well back then.
Speaker 7: That's that's how he took over. And he was the
Speaker 7: anointed one when dougsy died, to be the one who
Speaker 7: ran the place right now.
Speaker 5: Susan's father, Davey Berman died in nineteen fifty seven. How
Speaker 5: did he die and was there any question as how
Speaker 5: as to how he had died and why?
Speaker 7: Well, he had he actually had surgery and Henderson, you know,
Speaker 7: nearby Henderson at a hospital, but he I believe it
Speaker 7: was Gobladder surgery or one of those types of surgeries.
Speaker 7: And Susie was twelve years old and it was just
Speaker 7: he was going in for surgery and he I, you know,
Speaker 7: and all the research I did, I you know, what
Speaker 7: I found was they had like left a sponge inside
Speaker 7: of him. There's something and he got an injection and died,
Speaker 7: which you know, as we know those things happened, but
Speaker 7: there it was questioned. It came up and the old
Speaker 7: newspaper articles when he died. I told all the stories
Speaker 7: when you know, the Review Journal and the Las Vegas
Speaker 7: Son and a couple of I think there was another one,
Speaker 7: uh Lats Vegas Independent or something like that shaying that
Speaker 7: some questioned it, but that there was nothing to it
Speaker 7: that he you know, he died in surgery. I don't
Speaker 7: know that he had, you know, if there was any
Speaker 7: motive to kill him, you know. But then they Susan's
Speaker 7: mother when he died, was in you know, in a
Speaker 7: sisted living place in La So they moved they moved
Speaker 7: Susan from Las Vegas to La to be near her mother,
Speaker 7: but she lived in a separate apartment away from her,
Speaker 7: I believe, and the bodyguard went with her. And then
Speaker 7: her mother died the next year. Am I jumping? Am
Speaker 7: I jumping too soon?
Speaker 5: No? No, no, that's she died, yeah, the following year.
Speaker 5: How did she die? And was there any speculation as
Speaker 5: to what happened to her?
Speaker 7: And Susan later, Susan later questioned, if you know, yeah,
Speaker 7: you have to understand Susan when she would question question
Speaker 7: it later. But you know, Susan, it's like emotionally she
Speaker 7: you know, when her parents died, especially her father, because
Speaker 7: she was so close to him, her whole world changed,
Speaker 7: you know. And Andrew, she she basically was stuck, stuck
Speaker 7: in Las Vegas, planted there firmly at age twelve, and
Speaker 7: emotionally didn't really I mean intellectually, of course, she grew up.
Speaker 7: Emotional only she was she was firmly planted in Las Vegas,
Speaker 7: and she remembers things as a little girl, and you know,
Speaker 7: not all of them, you know, panned out. She wrote
Speaker 7: a beautiful book about it, Easy Street. But her her
Speaker 7: mother died, and she supposedly died, I mean, I think
Speaker 7: she died of a broken heart. But she supposedly died
Speaker 7: of an overdose or you know, she was she was young,
Speaker 7: you know, her mother was young, but but uh wasn't
Speaker 7: really she kind of checked out her motherhood, you know,
Speaker 7: and her father was raising her and then the bodyguard
Speaker 7: of course, lou who she loved, and and then you know,
Speaker 7: as soon as as soon as she died because Susan
Speaker 7: said she was killed. Her mother was killed because of
Speaker 7: the money. But they still had to pay Susan. I mean,
Speaker 7: Susan got a lot of money over the years. You know,
Speaker 7: she had trust fun with turned twenty one, you know,
Speaker 7: and Chickie actually lived off part of it. Her uncle, well,
Speaker 7: she went, he whisked her away to Oregon, then put
Speaker 7: her in Chadwick you know, private school and where she
Speaker 7: went to school with wife and Manelian people like that.
Speaker 7: And and he was taking the money. And then when
Speaker 7: she turned, you know, he put her in college and
Speaker 7: she went to use c l A and and uh,
Speaker 7: he was living off with that money. So she got
Speaker 7: a lot of money over the years. So that motivation
Speaker 7: of money to kill the mother doesn't make sense, because
Speaker 7: you know, he owned he owned part of the riviera,
Speaker 7: part of the Flamingo, Uh, some apartment buildings and things
Speaker 7: like that, and so the proceeds Susan lived, you know,
Speaker 7: had for years. So that doesn't make sense because it
Speaker 7: wasn't like they didn't pay anybody that why you know,
Speaker 7: they paid her, they paid the mother. It didn't make
Speaker 7: any difference. But there was never evidence. You know, nobody
Speaker 7: ever investigated is homicide.
Speaker 5: Right now, you talk about Susan and she chose to
Speaker 5: pursue a writing career. How did she be fair with that?
Speaker 5: You already mentioned that she wrote one book, but how
Speaker 5: what did she write about in the very beginning?
Speaker 7: Well, she she went I interviewed the dean of students
Speaker 7: because she went to well first I'm sorry, First she
Speaker 7: went to u C. L A and uh and that's
Speaker 7: where she met Bobby Durst. But she went to it
Speaker 7: would be her lifelong friend and lay there as suspect
Speaker 7: and her murder. But she met him there. And then
Speaker 7: she transferred to UC Berkeley University, California at Berkeley and
Speaker 7: went to their journalism school or as we say, JA school.
Speaker 7: And I interviewed the dean of the JA school and
Speaker 7: she was it was interesting. I interviewed a couple of
Speaker 7: people who attended school with her, and one who went
Speaker 7: on to work at the Los Angeles Times, and and
Speaker 7: she couldn't be She was bored with school and she
Speaker 7: didn't try hard, and things seemed to become easy to her.
Speaker 7: And the dean told me that she never He liked her,
Speaker 7: and he and his wife are really good friends with
Speaker 7: her and stayed friends with her, you know, up until
Speaker 7: her death.
Speaker 5: But he.
Speaker 7: Said he was very disappointed when the San Francisco Examiner
Speaker 7: offered her a job because he thought it was too easy.
Speaker 7: It came too easy, too easily to her, as so
Speaker 7: many things did. She was spoiled, and so she sort
Speaker 7: of felt entitled. There's a mob daughter, and she would
Speaker 7: tell everybody that she was, you know, that her father
Speaker 7: was a monster. But she didn't last long as the
Speaker 7: Chronicle art the Examiner, rather because she didn't get along
Speaker 7: with she didn't get along with people, and she didn't,
Speaker 7: you know, she didn't want to work hard. And while
Speaker 7: she was in San Francisco, she herb is that herb
Speaker 7: can herb con she ae n Yeah, he's a big
Speaker 7: column this stand. She used to hang out at this
Speaker 7: grille and she was in his column all the time.
Speaker 7: So she kind of became a big, big deal. You know,
Speaker 7: Susan's best years were San Francisco, and you know, after that,
Speaker 7: of course she went to New York. Her best years
Speaker 7: were there. When she went to LA everything went downhill
Speaker 7: for a very long time.
Speaker 5: Right when and exactly how, because it was very interesting
Speaker 5: part of your book. Did Susan discover who her father
Speaker 5: really was in terms of his mafia criminal background? And
Speaker 5: what did she do as a result? How did she react?
Speaker 7: So it was someone she knew, I think someone she
Speaker 7: knew from college and someone told called her and at
Speaker 7: the time she was living in I think at that
Speaker 7: time she had moved to New York. I mean, she's
Speaker 7: still in college to tell people. But in high school
Speaker 7: I talked to people she grew up with. Oh, by
Speaker 7: the way, if I can backtrack to her childhood, a
Speaker 7: kid named Pat Dailey, who I've interviewed a lot and
Speaker 7: several times, and he actually went to her father's wake,
Speaker 7: and it's true in the book that she threw herself.
Speaker 7: He was there, threw herself into her father's coffin during
Speaker 7: the funeral. She was always very dramatic and never got
Speaker 7: over it. But he said that his parents while he
Speaker 7: could play it her house. He was allowed to play
Speaker 7: at her house or take the limo down to parties
Speaker 7: and stuff. He was one of her few friends in
Speaker 7: school her parents. His parents would not allow her into
Speaker 7: their home. She's rather interesting. They let him go there,
Speaker 7: but they want to let her, you know what I mean. Interesting.
Speaker 7: But anyway, she she went met this guy at a
Speaker 7: bar that they had a you know, a planned meeting,
Speaker 7: and he wanted to tell her something. And she went
Speaker 7: there and he pulled out a mugshot or something or
Speaker 7: wanted I think it was a wanted poster that she
Speaker 7: actually hung on her wall. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm in
Speaker 7: a coffee lounge actually outside, Sorry about that, he uh.
Speaker 7: And he told her, you know, this is who your
Speaker 7: father was. And he opened up a book and in
Speaker 7: it he found a page and it said who Chicky was,
Speaker 7: and it said who her father was. And so then
Speaker 7: she she didn't believe him. So then she went to
Speaker 7: a bookstore and looked up every book she could find,
Speaker 7: and she went to the library and found every reference
Speaker 7: and then she found that her dad, but there wasn't
Speaker 7: that much written about him, but she confirmed. So she
Speaker 7: did a freedom of Information Act, pulled the foy as
Speaker 7: we call it, you paper the f by FBI, and
Speaker 7: he said, and she sent in paperwork, and she got
Speaker 7: her father's file and it was you know, several boxes
Speaker 7: and went through it. And from that, you know, she
Speaker 7: never planned to, you know, write a non fiction book.
Speaker 7: She'd you know, she'd been writing. She'd started some you
Speaker 7: know fiction, you know, novels, which she did well with those.
Speaker 8: And okay, Round two.
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Speaker 5: Up.
Speaker 7: From that came Easy Street, the book Easy Street, which
Speaker 7: they were going to turn into a movie too.
Speaker 5: That right now, what was it? What was it about?
Speaker 7: The Street is very good, by the way, Yes.
Speaker 5: This is highly acclaimed. Everyone talks about what a you know,
Speaker 5: what a great book it was. And her follow up,
Speaker 5: Lady Las Vegas, not so much. It was all what
Speaker 5: is what is the book about? Specifically? Was it completely true?
Speaker 5: And how was it accepted by critics? And how did
Speaker 5: members of the mafia react.
Speaker 7: Mafia didn't seem to care, you know, about the book,
Speaker 7: because I mean Susan didn't know anything. And you know,
Speaker 7: this was how many years later, you know what, fifteen
Speaker 7: years later or something, but or ten whatever it was,
Speaker 7: and she had because of who she was, she had,
Speaker 7: you know, entree into you know Vegas, you know the
Speaker 7: people who run Vegas. You know, including Steve When and
Speaker 7: his wife Elane. They helped her on the A and
Speaker 7: E special she was on later, she helped produce that,
Speaker 7: helped write it, and also in her later you know
Speaker 7: Lady Las Vegas. She had you know, entree into and
Speaker 7: to that whole whole group of people that other people
Speaker 7: can't penetrate, and so actually it helped her and they
Speaker 7: didn't care because she didn't know anything and nothing new
Speaker 7: was happening. But she was on a Jane Pauley interviewed her.
Speaker 7: I think she was on CBS or something, and she
Speaker 7: she had a full on book tour. And you know,
Speaker 7: nobody owns the rights to that book right now. A
Speaker 7: few people are trying to get it, but dial Press,
Speaker 7: I think nobody knows who owns it. So the book
Speaker 7: is out of print and hasband for a long time.
Speaker 7: A lot of people have tried to grab it up
Speaker 7: and can't. But yeah, it's But the interesting thing on
Speaker 7: that is she had a book, she had a movie
Speaker 7: deal come through, and Susan collected people, and she collected
Speaker 7: people who could be useful to her in her career,
Speaker 7: people in the music industry, publishing industry, and she knew
Speaker 7: a guy at a record company, and so he kind
Speaker 7: of acted as as a quasi agent and she was paid,
Speaker 7: Oh I don't remember. It was one hundred and eighty
Speaker 7: seventh found and or something is and it's as a
Speaker 7: movie option, you know. And then she was so difficult
Speaker 7: to work with that they killed the.
Speaker 5: Movie deal, right right.
Speaker 7: She never she never got over that. She didn't have
Speaker 7: to pay the money back, but she never got over that,
Speaker 7: And she grew more and more eccentric as she got older.
Speaker 5: What was the Easy Street?
Speaker 2: Was it?
Speaker 5: Memoir? Ask? What was Easy Street? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Memoir? Ask a little you know, through the rose rose
Speaker 7: colored glasses of a twelve year old, but written by
Speaker 7: an adult. I mean the style is just such a
Speaker 7: nice Stylini quote from it in the book. But she
Speaker 7: there was like saying, you know, my dad, my dad
Speaker 7: built the first synagogue in Las Vegas. Well no he didn't.
Speaker 7: You know, they may have attended it, but no, no
Speaker 7: they didn't. You know, that's shalom and the things that
Speaker 7: she kind of forget, you know, she like she said
Speaker 7: she was kidnapped. I could find no you know, court
Speaker 7: records or criminal records on it. She said she was
Speaker 7: kidnapped out front of you she was at Fifth Avenue High.
Speaker 7: Fifth Avenue School is where she attended school, which was
Speaker 7: just two blocks from her house, two short blocks. And
Speaker 7: some man opened the door and grabbed her and tore
Speaker 7: her in the back seat, and there were a bunch
Speaker 7: of comic books on the back seat with her. And
Speaker 7: as he started to drive, I guess he drove away
Speaker 7: and stopped at the stoplight, and she kicked in the
Speaker 7: door and she's eight years old and got out. And
Speaker 7: I mean, that's her side of the story. We don't know,
Speaker 7: but things like that she has in it, and it's
Speaker 7: just interesting about her mom and her dad and she,
Speaker 7: you know, she kind of downplays the in some respects.
Speaker 7: She downplays the role of her father because she knew
Speaker 7: that he was you know, he was he at one
Speaker 7: point had been a hit man apparently, but she downplays
Speaker 7: that sort of thing about him. It's kind of it's
Speaker 7: very rose colored glasses, but a good read and you
Speaker 7: learn a lot. If anybody wants to get you can
Speaker 7: buy it off. You can buy it used doctor Amazon.
Speaker 7: It's expensive, but you can buy it.
Speaker 5: Interesting. Yeah, going back with the FBI too, what I
Speaker 5: thought was interesting is that one of the things that
Speaker 5: was said to her, either through the FBI or the
Speaker 5: reporter that blabbed his mouth about the father, or the
Speaker 5: person that told her about her father's background, was that
Speaker 5: they said, matter of factly, Oh yeah, he was a trained.
Speaker 7: Killer, got kill it and he could to kill a
Speaker 7: man with one arm behind his back and the other Yeah.
Speaker 7: And that's a famous line that she'd said it on
Speaker 7: the Jane Pauly Show. She set it on radio show later,
Speaker 7: you know, This American Life. I think she was on
Speaker 7: with a couple of other mob kids or you know,
Speaker 7: relatives of monsters, and she always would quote that line
Speaker 7: because it was in a book that he was. He was,
Speaker 7: but it wasn't a hardened He didn't have that hardened
Speaker 7: look or you know, he didn't have if you didn't know,
Speaker 7: if you saw him on the street, you wanted to
Speaker 7: have thought that he didn't have, you know, the Vegas look,
Speaker 7: you know, the ft back here and kind of I mean,
Speaker 7: it's just sort of the thug look. He in, the
Speaker 7: type of suits and stuff. It was quite a sharp
Speaker 7: dresser too, apparently, but he didn't have that and he
Speaker 7: didn't He wasn't a tough guy. And people who worked
Speaker 7: for him loved him. I interviewed Bill Miller, who was
Speaker 7: a couple of years uh, I think he was a
Speaker 7: couple of years younger than Uh. Then Susan and he
Speaker 7: became actually governor and his father went to prison for
Speaker 7: I forget what, but he was kind of hooked up
Speaker 7: with the mob a little bit. And and uh it
Speaker 7: was Bob Miller. And Bob Miller was a lifeguard, you know,
Speaker 7: at the at the Flamingo, and he would always be
Speaker 7: invited to Susan's party. They'd always be kids of the
Speaker 7: workers who were invited to her parties. Kid she didn't
Speaker 7: know very well. And he and he said, you know,
Speaker 7: everybody loved Davy that that he was. He was a
Speaker 7: gentleman and treated treated employees with respect. So he didn't
Speaker 7: you know, he didn't pushing weight around or anything like that.
Speaker 7: He was like a gentle gentleman monster.
Speaker 5: And Susan had no problem. I guess you could call
Speaker 5: it exploitating, but exploiting that relationship she had with that
Speaker 5: information she had in those behind the scenes people in
Speaker 5: Vegas and romanticizing the entire mafia as well on the
Speaker 5: mob in Vegas, which included her father. So she had
Speaker 5: no problem doing that now nobody.
Speaker 7: Nobody, Yeah, that's what she did, and nobody seemed to care.
Speaker 7: Like she bragged about Elvis cent a birthday party and
Speaker 7: labaraci and birthday parties and Jimmy Duranty giving her gifts
Speaker 7: and you know, she was Susan was a name dropper.
Speaker 7: And it's interesting that she she tried to hook up.
Speaker 7: The people she stayed friends with were famous or infamous,
Speaker 7: you know what I mean, But she was if somebody
Speaker 7: wasn't useful to her, for the most part, she didn't
Speaker 7: keep them as friends. It was interesting kind of what
Speaker 7: she definitely had an effect on her growing up in
Speaker 7: that environment as really a mob princess because she was spoiled,
Speaker 7: you know, spoiled spoiled girl. Yes, and then the rest
Speaker 7: of her life she felt entitled.
Speaker 5: Sure, now you you talked about Robert or Bobby Durst,
Speaker 5: and they met in college, but you could tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit more about when and how they met.
Speaker 5: You said about college, But how did they meet? Was
Speaker 5: the relationship intimate or what kind of relationship was it?
Speaker 7: Yeah, they were, they were. She always referred to him
Speaker 7: as her as the brother she never had. They met
Speaker 7: at the was he was a year or two older
Speaker 7: than her. I think that they He only attended UCLA
Speaker 7: for a year and he was there for a graduate
Speaker 7: degree which she didn't finish, and Susan was there for
Speaker 7: her undergraduate and they met in the quad, you know,
Speaker 7: outdoors and you know the city in areas where the kids,
Speaker 7: you know, the students, and they met out there and
Speaker 7: their their their common interests were that their mothers had died.
Speaker 7: He actually witnessed his mother committing suicide by jumping off
Speaker 7: the family roof and he was on the ground when
Speaker 7: she landed. And every yeah and every you know, profiles
Speaker 7: have been done on him and said that that affected him.
Speaker 7: So right then they had she was she was you know,
Speaker 7: her mother died as well and when she was young,
Speaker 7: and so they had that that commonality and just sort
Speaker 7: of intellectually he was, you know, he came from a
Speaker 7: really you know, the Dursk Corporation and and the huge
Speaker 7: real estate owners and developers in Manhattan, and which came
Speaker 7: in handy for durs later when his wife is missing,
Speaker 7: and but never romantic. She wasn't interested in him, and
Speaker 7: vice versa, but they they were they see each other,
Speaker 7: and then she basically followed them to New York because
Speaker 7: that's where he lived. So she after working at the Examiner,
Speaker 7: she freelanced at City Lights. Wrote a wrote ah in
Speaker 7: an article how to get laid in San Francisco, and
Speaker 7: back then it was a big deal and that kind
Speaker 7: of made her famous, and she she used that to
Speaker 7: get into New York and get with New York Magazine
Speaker 7: hired her. So she and then she saw Bobby a lot.
Speaker 7: They'd go to Elaine's and a whole group of people
Speaker 7: would go and Larraine Newman from Saturday Night Live was
Speaker 7: one of their friends, and they just had the whole
Speaker 7: following of people.
Speaker 5: Now it was Bobby Durst a real eccentric character at
Speaker 5: that time. And also you didn't mention that you mentioned
Speaker 5: that she was a mob princess and felt she was entitled.
Speaker 5: But she felt entitled and she, like you say, she
Speaker 5: knew people that were powerful and or famous and or wealthy.
Speaker 5: So Bobby Dursky her money, but but there's other people
Speaker 5: that gave her money as well, so that wouldn't be
Speaker 5: so unusual. But tell us about uh, tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about that, and and tell us because you
Speaker 5: don't talk too much about it, but about the behavior
Speaker 5: of Bobby Durst at that time. Was he a real
Speaker 5: eccentric guy, because later his behavior is quite different.
Speaker 7: No, he was. He was quiet. You know, sometimes you
Speaker 7: have to watch out to the quiet people. You know,
Speaker 7: still watters run deep, and in Bobby Durt's case, that
Speaker 7: was it. But he met he met Kathy Durst in
Speaker 7: in New York, and she was very sweet and normal
Speaker 7: and wanted to go to medic was attending medical school,
Speaker 7: and he became There were people who who you know,
Speaker 7: I interviewed for the book who said that, you know,
Speaker 7: at parties when Kathy would go and Susan would be
Speaker 7: there too, and she was Kathy's friend, but she was
Speaker 7: Bobby's friend. First, that Bobby was controlling over her about
Speaker 7: you know, where she'd go and who she talked to
Speaker 7: and that sort of thing. It was never that way
Speaker 7: with Susan. But then Bobby's you know, they had a
Speaker 7: fight and Bobby's wife ends up missing and and someone
Speaker 7: called the medical school to say that she wouldn't to
Speaker 7: be attending. It was a woman. And everybody believes, and
Speaker 7: I believe it too, that Susan was his alibi and
Speaker 7: and was the because she you know, she I forget
Speaker 7: what the alibi was that she she confirmed something and
Speaker 7: then was the one they believe who called in seeing
Speaker 7: that the wife wanted to be attending school. So it's uh,
Speaker 7: and that's a deep, deep secret to hold for someone,
Speaker 7: you know, if you and she filled the media request
Speaker 7: for him, which was a big deal after Kathy Durst.
Speaker 7: It was a huge story in Manhattan after she was missing,
Speaker 7: and you know, she's never been found and her body
Speaker 7: hasn't been and they declared her dead. You know, years
Speaker 7: later that Susan filled it and did all the interviews
Speaker 7: for Bobby, so the media.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so she was very supportive. But when did police
Speaker 5: didn't find out immediately though that the actual time of
Speaker 5: death or they didn't put together that someone had made
Speaker 5: a call and it certainly wasn't Kathy and it must
Speaker 5: have been some other woman. So this is this doesn't
Speaker 5: happen right away. Bobby Durst has the ability to avoid
Speaker 5: and charges. Initially, Yeah, yeah, he didn't report.
Speaker 7: He didn't report that his wife is missing for I
Speaker 7: don't know, three four or five days something like that.
Speaker 7: He went to walk into Manhattan. It wasn't living in Manhattan,
Speaker 7: but they had an apartment in Manhattan and they lived. Oh,
Speaker 7: excuse me, I don't I can't remember where they lived,
Speaker 7: but it wasn't in the city that they had an
Speaker 7: apartment there and she would stay there sometimes when Kathy
Speaker 7: would when she'd have to attend classes. And so he
Speaker 7: didn't report it right away, and I went to the
Speaker 7: Manhattan station and interviewed, you know, a couple of people there,
Speaker 7: the cops, and asked why, you know, why wasn't this investigated?
Speaker 7: They did not investigate it as a homicide. They didn't.
Speaker 7: They took his word for it, didn't do any searches
Speaker 7: for a while, and didn't ever really look at it
Speaker 7: as a homicide. It was just a missing person. They
Speaker 7: said she ran off, which, of course, you know, they
Speaker 7: had a terrible side. She was visiting her friend that
Speaker 7: night at a party, and you know the captain, the Jamie,
Speaker 7: who is very good friends with too with Kathy Durst,
Speaker 7: and believed in her heart of hearts that that Bobby
Speaker 7: Durst that's her killer. And you know, people try to
Speaker 7: connect that scusan murder later. You know that she was
Speaker 7: going to spill the beans and so Bobby offed her
Speaker 7: because of it.
Speaker 5: Now, explain that you did, Bobby, and you know, for
Speaker 5: the logic of that, Bobby has a relationship with with Susan. Uh,
Speaker 5: he's the prime suspect in the death of his murder,
Speaker 5: in the murder of his wife and Susan you talk
Speaker 5: about in the book. Susan told at least one person,
Speaker 5: if not more, that he had admitted that he had
Speaker 5: killed his wife. So that's why, Yeah, that's the largest person.
Speaker 7: Yeah, she told, Yeah, she told, and you know, she
Speaker 7: kept a secret. You know, if it's true, she kept
Speaker 7: a secret for a very long time. And she was
Speaker 7: Susan wasn't good with money. She would come into lots
Speaker 7: of money and she never told her friends that. You know.
Speaker 7: At one point she was given like what was at
Speaker 7: one point three million dollars or something. She's given it
Speaker 7: an increment's twenty one, which you know her uncle bought her,
Speaker 7: you know, in college. He bought her a convertible Mercedes
Speaker 7: fans and she you know, is middle of the Vietnam
Speaker 7: era too, it is kind of out of place at
Speaker 7: UC Berkeley, and she u twenty one. She got a
Speaker 7: lot of money to pay for her education too, and
Speaker 7: her support and then twenty five she got it chunk
Speaker 7: and thirty I think was when out twenty five or
Speaker 7: thirty is when she got to one point three million.
Speaker 7: I think she got large amounts. And then later there
Speaker 7: was some property that sold that her dad partially owned,
Speaker 7: and she got a payment from that too. And she
Speaker 7: always complained that she didn't get any money from the mob,
Speaker 7: and it wasn't true. And because I pulled up all
Speaker 7: the financial records, they're all filed with the state and
Speaker 7: Davy's name is on him, and then her name is
Speaker 7: on it too, you know, as a dare. But she
Speaker 7: went to Bob. She was she didn't have any money,
Speaker 7: she couldn't get work. It was when she was in
Speaker 7: LA and she went to Bobby for money. She needed
Speaker 7: a car and she needed support. She was being booted
Speaker 7: out of the place she lived in the house she
Speaker 7: lived in and Bobby made that's when he was missing
Speaker 7: in Texas, but she didn't know it. And I'm jumping
Speaker 7: the gun, but he's living as a woman, a mute woman.
Speaker 7: And he sent her two separate checks for twenty five
Speaker 7: thousand dollars each And people say, well, that was payal,
Speaker 7: but that was Bobby. We don't know what he gave
Speaker 7: her over the years. He could have given her other
Speaker 7: large checks that she never told anybody about.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: Right now, the thing is what I don't know if
Speaker 5: it's clear, but is that the murder case was reopened,
Speaker 5: that Kathy Durst murder case was reopened, and then and then.
Speaker 7: It was a bounce to they wanted to interview Susan. Yes,
Speaker 7: that's an integral part of the story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So Gilbierta Najami said that there was a leak
Speaker 5: by police and she blamed police because Bobby Durst. She
Speaker 5: claimed that Bobby Durst then knew that Susan was going
Speaker 5: to be questioned about the Kathy Durst case. And obviously
Speaker 5: there was information that was known to police or they
Speaker 5: believe that someone had made a call in which was
Speaker 5: a woman. And so that makes a lot more sense
Speaker 5: for a motive for Bobby Durst to have this murder.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and there's yeah, and he doesn't he doesn't have
Speaker 7: an alibi, which I'm reveal in the book. You know,
Speaker 7: his attorney, dip to Garan, who you know, Bobby Durst attorney,
Speaker 7: who is a very good one, you know, one of
Speaker 7: the top one hundred. He's been named in the defense
Speaker 7: attorneys in the country.
Speaker 5: Yes, she was.
Speaker 7: Shortly before Susan's death, a newspaper article came out citing
Speaker 7: that the case that Kathy Durst disappearance case was being
Speaker 7: reopened and Susan was a person of interest that they
Speaker 7: were trying to get a hold of to interview. And
Speaker 7: then Susan had told a couple of her friends that
Speaker 7: the stuff was going to hit the fan, that there
Speaker 7: was some information she had, And then they assumed those
Speaker 7: who's in it's just another mob story. You know, nobody
Speaker 7: cares anymore that that part the mob is so old.
Speaker 7: But in retrospect they looked at it and said she
Speaker 7: was probably talking about Bobby. You know, would Susan have done?
Speaker 7: I mean, she was loyal to a tea. That's one
Speaker 7: thing she learned from her father is you know, you
Speaker 7: don't you don't you know, knock on people you you know,
Speaker 7: you keep secrets. I mean she if it's true, she
Speaker 7: kept a secret for a very long time for Bobby.
Speaker 7: So what would motivate her He just gave her money.
Speaker 7: What would motivate her to you know, turns, you know,
Speaker 7: become a become a witness for the state. I mean,
Speaker 7: I don't, I don't. Maybe he worried she would, but
Speaker 7: whoever came to her house that night, she let that
Speaker 7: person in. And she had also another another clue to
Speaker 7: putting Bobby durs next to the murder. Is he she
Speaker 7: told some friends that Bobby was going to come and
Speaker 7: visit her. He was in San Francisco. Who's going to
Speaker 7: be in San Francisco because he had a place there,
Speaker 7: a condo in the city, and he was going to
Speaker 7: go to La and visitor. That's and he was going
Speaker 7: to take her back to San Francisco's what she told France.
Speaker 5: Now, what you haven't explained, and I'm just very curious,
Speaker 5: is that you just allude You just talk about his
Speaker 5: cross dressing and and and posing as a mute woman.
Speaker 5: Did he just all of a sudden start cross dressing.
Speaker 5: Did he start cross dressing just because he needed the disguise?
Speaker 5: Is this just part of the behavior? What is going on?
Speaker 7: I think I think it's a little bit of both.
Speaker 7: I mean, the guy was definitely as he got older,
Speaker 7: was eccentric, But you know, so with Susan, So I
Speaker 7: think that was part of the appeal with each other,
Speaker 7: is they both were eccentric and he and I think
Speaker 7: they were damaged. She was damaged by the loss of
Speaker 7: her parents. He was damaged by the you know, suicide
Speaker 7: in front of him at age seven, so they both
Speaker 7: were damaged. But yeah, he went to Galveston Bay too,
Speaker 7: because I think he went there in disguised because the
Speaker 7: Kathy Durst investigation was closing in. Uh And so he
Speaker 7: goes to Galveston Bay, to a little crummy area of
Speaker 7: the of the of town and near the near the water,
Speaker 7: near Galveston Bay and rants this little motel kind of
Speaker 7: a you know, weekly rental or whatever. They are a
Speaker 7: little just imagine a little beach place. And his neighbor
Speaker 7: is uh more as Black and an older guy, and
Speaker 7: they befriend each other, and apparently he pissed off uh Bobby,
Speaker 7: and he said that there was a gun and and
Speaker 7: it was drawn but he didn't mean to he didn't
Speaker 7: mean to pull the trigger, and that he accidentally killed
Speaker 7: one Morris Black. And so to get rid of him,
Speaker 7: he got a saw chainsaw and he sawed him up
Speaker 7: in the in in the rental and put him in
Speaker 7: bags and dropped him in Galveston Bay. And then a
Speaker 7: fisherman and his twelve year old son were out fishing
Speaker 7: and came across body parts, body parts. I think it
Speaker 7: was the head first and can you imagine that? Poor kid?
Speaker 7: And uh, and then he went on that he went
Speaker 7: on the lamb after after he dropped the you know,
Speaker 7: dropped the body parts.
Speaker 4: Into the bay.
Speaker 7: He then you know, went on the lamb and he
Speaker 7: was caught shoplifting shocklisting a sandwich and they pulled him. Yeah,
Speaker 7: they pulled him up and they let him go. So
Speaker 7: he was on the lamb for He was on the
Speaker 7: lamb for a little while until they finally finally got him.
Speaker 7: So while she was but in between, you know, I
Speaker 7: talked to Dick de Gearon. It was interesting, and you know,
Speaker 7: I love it when things like this happened as we're
Speaker 7: writing our stories. It's like a gift to an author,
Speaker 7: you know. But I was interviewing Dick de Garon and
Speaker 7: and said, you know, I mean, you know, Bobby was
Speaker 7: never interviewed by the by the police for Susan's murder.
Speaker 7: So the lapd kind of dropped the ball in a
Speaker 7: couple of ways. Who's never interviewed Dick was, And so
Speaker 7: I asked, I asked mister de Geran if if Bobby
Speaker 7: had an alibi because he's got an alibi. He was
Speaker 7: in San Francisco. He was in the air headed from
Speaker 7: San Francisco to New York when she was killed. Well,
Speaker 7: that wasn't accurate. He was in the air when her
Speaker 7: body was found, but she'd been dead for twenty four hours,
Speaker 7: which gave him Appleton. That's an hour flight from sep
Speaker 7: Francisco to LA that's a four hour drive, five hour drive,
Speaker 7: four and a half. And I've done it, and uh
Speaker 7: so he actually had plenty of time. There's what what
Speaker 7: was he doing the day before, you know, Friday night?
Speaker 7: You know, and whoever whoever left And Bobby was also
Speaker 7: one of the things he had in common, huge animal lover,
Speaker 7: and he apparently had an Afghan dog and she was
Speaker 7: she had three god Wire terriers and hyper little dogs.
Speaker 7: And whoever killed her left the back door open so
Speaker 7: those dogs could come and go, and that's how they
Speaker 7: found out her body was in there, because her dogs
Speaker 7: were running in the front yard on Denied at Canyon Road.
Speaker 7: So yeah, I mean, it all points to him, But
Speaker 7: they say they don't have enough evidence, and I'm like, God,
Speaker 7: wasn't there less evidence in the OJ case?
Speaker 5: Well, but you do explain though, too, that someone commented
Speaker 5: at least theorized. And I see examples of this where
Speaker 5: you already have them on a first degree murder charge
Speaker 5: doing life without parole. It takes a lot of effort
Speaker 5: to mount the case and a lot of money, and
Speaker 5: you have to have a lot of evidence.
Speaker 7: So yeah, with them in the circumstantial evidence too, they
Speaker 7: can they can use circumstantial I mean, they didn't really
Speaker 7: pursue him. They didn't. They should have immediately. It's like her,
Speaker 7: you know, and then you've got another person of interest
Speaker 7: at the time they say he's no longer a person
Speaker 7: of interest, but her manager. And you know, if you
Speaker 7: want to call him a manager, he was a friend.
Speaker 7: She met him a apartment complex when she lived off
Speaker 7: of Sunset was for free, by the way for five
Speaker 7: years and actresses as singers. Apartment who who offered her
Speaker 7: when she, you know, filed bankruptcy, she offered that Susan
Speaker 7: could live in that apartment with her as a boyfriend's daughter.
Speaker 7: And Susan stayed for five years. Can you imagine she
Speaker 7: just had a way of people. People did things for her,
Speaker 7: you know, I mean, people want people who knew her
Speaker 7: and they loved her. But they were also exasperated by her,
Speaker 7: you know, I mean she offers her someplace to live
Speaker 7: temporarily and she stays five years and they had to
Speaker 7: do quite some cleaning because she had three dogs in there,
Speaker 7: and I guess and nobody had been in there in years,
Speaker 7: and I guess the place was the mask But that's
Speaker 7: where she met her manager and walking her dogs down
Speaker 7: the street and he was walking his and he just
Speaker 7: kind of took over managing her that she never paid him,
Speaker 7: and he was upset with her because she owed him money.
Speaker 7: And he actually broke into the house the day Susan's
Speaker 7: body was found, and he broke into the house looking
Speaker 7: for her bank records. So but they didn't search his
Speaker 7: house or office for two months. So they they dropped
Speaker 7: the ball in some respects because they didn't get Bobby Durst.
Speaker 7: Never interviewed him, just his attorney and you know, never
Speaker 7: checked for you know, fingerprints or whatever, you know, matching
Speaker 7: whatever they could on him. And well, you know, when
Speaker 7: his his when he was ultimately arrested for the Morris
Speaker 7: Black murder, he when he got off, you know, dickta
Speaker 7: Garon got him acquitted on self defense and he in
Speaker 7: his the trunks of his car were two guns and
Speaker 7: one was a nine millimeter. Susan was shot with a
Speaker 7: nine millimeter and the ballistics on that because Susan, Susan
Speaker 7: was shot once in the back of the head coming
Speaker 7: out of her coming out of going into her spare room,
Speaker 7: and I felt like somebody was following her into the room,
Speaker 7: you know, but it was someone she knew. And uh,
Speaker 7: the ballistics on on that gun and the bullet at
Speaker 7: her house were inconclusive. So there you go. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Interesting. So what's what's the latest update on this whole case,
Speaker 5: Bobby Durst, What's what's the latest wrap up on this
Speaker 5: on this thing here?
Speaker 7: Well, I don't, you know, I don't know that they're
Speaker 7: ever gonna, you know, do anything. I mean, I talked
Speaker 7: to to the lead you know, investigator in the case,
Speaker 7: and there you know, they get leads periodically, but nothing major.
Speaker 7: And they admit that mistakes were made. But even if
Speaker 7: Bobby Durst that he told me, Paul Coulter, even if
Speaker 7: Bobby Durst came in and said I did it, they'd
Speaker 7: still have to have evidence that he did. So they
Speaker 7: don't have the evidence too, they say, I mean, I've
Speaker 7: seen circumstantial cases come in with Wes and you let
Speaker 7: the jury decide or you let the grand jury decide
Speaker 7: whether they want to and die them. But they never
Speaker 7: put this thing forward. I mean, he got a pass
Speaker 7: from Manhattan because of who his father was, you know,
Speaker 7: Seymourgers huge, I mean, owned half of Manhattan and he
Speaker 7: seems to have gotten the past ever since. And you know,
Speaker 7: he had one of the best criminal defense attorneys in
Speaker 7: the country. You can't blame him, really, you know. I mean,
Speaker 7: the guy's not been convicted of murder, you know, and
Speaker 7: he's connected. He's tied to three murders and he's never
Speaker 7: never been convicted. So I don't know, you know, I
Speaker 7: think it's a I think it's one of two people
Speaker 7: in the case. But there I don't, you know, short
Speaker 7: of finding the smoking gun, I don't know that this
Speaker 7: case will ever be solved.
Speaker 5: Yeah, to Bobby Durst, though it looks points to yeah.
Speaker 7: The manager a little. He was acting strange and you know,
Speaker 7: you know, so I don't use his name, but he, uh,
Speaker 7: he just kind of some things that just don't add
Speaker 7: up with him. But yeah, Bobby, it looks like Bobby
Speaker 7: did it, but it I mean it would be the
Speaker 7: biggest double cross of the century if he if he
Speaker 7: did do that, I mean the way I look at it.
Speaker 7: You know, just because he killed someone else doesn't mean
Speaker 7: he killed her, you know what I mean. Sure, but
Speaker 7: it's it's hard to it's hard to say the case
Speaker 7: wasn't handled, you know, as as it could have been. Yeah,
Speaker 7: we'll never know certain certain points. But fascinating. I think
Speaker 7: her and I think it's sad. I think it's sad
Speaker 7: that no one has has has you know, come to
Speaker 7: justice in her case. She was sad character, wasn't she?
Speaker 5: Yeah, she was. And it's it. It's a fascinating tale
Speaker 5: because of all of its historical background, that information that
Speaker 5: you're providing, and it's almost biographical about a mob princess
Speaker 5: and person trying to write. So it's very interesting too,
Speaker 5: her whole life, Like you say, Liberashi and Elvis come
Speaker 5: into her birthday party. It is a real glimpse into
Speaker 5: the real story, not you know, the Hollywood version. So
Speaker 5: it's a it's a great book.
Speaker 7: It's a whole thank you, and it's a whole different
Speaker 7: and it's a whole different era that's gone that is
Speaker 7: not the Vegas of today.
Speaker 5: You know, and so it is.
Speaker 7: It is a real snapshot into what it was like
Speaker 7: back then.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's about the only part of the mob that
Speaker 5: they could be romanticized because there was some aspect of
Speaker 5: a little bit of charm and a little bit of
Speaker 5: class despite being thugs, you know. So it's definitely definitely
Speaker 5: the good old days of crime and when crime was
Speaker 5: a little more civilized. Unbelievable if it could be.
Speaker 7: But I will on the boys on the street. I
Speaker 7: love the way that one woman said, Yeah, the boys
Speaker 7: down the street, those are the guys the mob on
Speaker 7: this trip. But anyway, you're welcome. I'm happy to be
Speaker 7: here and I appreciate you giving me the time.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you very much for a great interview and
Speaker 5: about a great book. People have been listening to Murder
Speaker 5: of a Mafia Daughter, the life and tragic death of
Speaker 5: Susan Berman with my guest Kathy Scott. Thank you very much. Kathy,
Speaker 5: have yourself a good evening.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Dan, you two.
Speaker 5: Good night. You've been listening to the program True Murder,
Speaker 5: the most shocking killers in true crime history and the
Speaker 5: authors that have written about them, with your host Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Join me next week.
Speaker 4: Good night,