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Speaker 1: Hello, Ero, Hey, how are you doing today, Doctor?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You have done something here that really it's almost like

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the show future Shock. You have shocked us with a

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different point of view and direction of one of the

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most tragic crimes in this nation. And I can't help

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but sit there and just think, how did you gain

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the strength to be able to go to a different

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direction and give us a different point of direction.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've been studying serial killers for over twenty five

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years and this was a way in that was very unique,

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had not really been studied much before. And Wayne Henley

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was interested in participating in it with me as in

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depth as he possibly could get.

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Speaker 2: So that was another plus for this project.

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Speaker 1: But to make that connection, that collaboration, that had to

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have been a lot of meetings before the meetings, because

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I mean, it didn't just happen, there's no way.

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Speaker 3: Well, my co author actually already knew him, so that helped.

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He also looked at my credentials. He was primed to

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want to tell his story as a way to prevent

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this kind of thing in the future, so that he'd

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be associated with at least something positive and not always

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the negative from his you know, long ago past, so

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he was ready for someone who could help him tell

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his story in that way, and I was certainly willing

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to do that.

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Speaker 1: See, that's every bit the reason why I started off

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seeing Future Shock, because there is the thing about it is, though,

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is that there are so many accomplices to these crimes,

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but we never hear the true story of them. It's

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always the main one who did the crime.

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Speaker 3: I agree with you, and that's why I thought this

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was a really important point of view, so that we

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understand better the differences among types of accomplices, which I

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do go into, but also how they deal with that, well,

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how do they try to get out if they do,

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how do they deal with it in the aftermath Because

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they're not the predator, they're not the ones who want

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to actually go in and kill. They're pulled into it

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quite often, and then they have a lot of issues afterward.

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Speaker 1: The reason why I'm so drawn to this is because

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I have a friend whose son who was basically just

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outscrewing around with his friends. They end up killing somebody

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and he says still he was innocent, he didn't know

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what was going to happen, And and you're sitting there

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going the accomplice was there. That is a serious position

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that he put himself into.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and that's why we need to understand, especially parents

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and counselors and teachers who deal with adolescents, need to

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know what some of these signals are when a kid

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is in trouble.

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Speaker 1: The Candy Man Killer Houston, Texas, Oh my god, and

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the way that everything would play out, It's just this

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is more than just true crime.

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Speaker 3: It is and he's the only accomplice to have killed

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the killer to end it, and that's I think pretty important.

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And he also led police to the bodies. Had he

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not done that, they would have never found them. So

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I think that in some ways, although he's got a

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pretty bad reputation, he needs to be recognized for doing

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something like that.

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Speaker 1: Was it a bucket list thing that, you know, I've

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got to get this story out there. Or is it

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his way of discovering himself and he needs to find

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forgiveness from something or someone.

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Speaker 3: He is full of remorse, he's horrified at what he did.

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I don't know that it was a bucket list. I

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think he hoped one day he'd be able to use

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his story for good and it just seemed to all

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work together where I was willing to because I have

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the psychological credentials to help him explore it and to

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guide him safely back into it in a way that

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would would find the things that we need to be

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able to tell people warning.

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Speaker 1: Signs, please do not move. There's more with doctor Catherine

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Ramslin coming up next, The Serial Killers Apprentice on Investigative Discovery.

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Let's get back to our talk with doctor Catherine. Let

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me ask you this question, doctor, when somebody brings out

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a story that's been trapped inside their mind, body and

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soul for so long, do they get therapy after they've

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sat down with you? Because I mean, when you let

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something go. I mean that's like you know, in your heart,

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when the plaque breaks off, that's how you get a

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heart attack.

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Speaker 2: I did a lot of counseling, for sure.

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Speaker 3: He had nightmares when he was bringing this step back

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up some PTSD. We spend a lot of time behind

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the scenes, is so to speak, working on getting him

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through this.

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Speaker 1: What did you learn because you had to have gone

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into this as a student too. I mean, we can

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all be professionals at what we do, but in order

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to ask the right questions at the right time, you

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had to have been a student.

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Speaker 3: I was.

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Speaker 2: I'm always a students. That's the part I like best.

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Speaker 3: And I learned a lot about the way the predator

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manages not just their partners and pray, but the whole community.

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Because Dean Coral was able to convince people he was

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this great big brother type. Nobody believed he could have

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been doing this, despite the fact that there were a

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number of signals that he was involved with these missing boys.

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And so for me, it was really trying to understand

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how the predator plays a long game and looks at

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all the different people he needs to persuade of his

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normalcy before he even makes a move. That was probably

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one of the biggest lessons I learned.

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Speaker 1: See, this is one of the reasons why I get

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a little freaky when I see people who are people

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watching and they're sitting there very patiently. I'm sitting there, going,

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you're up to something because everybody else is moving and

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you are not. What is going on inside that mind?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that it could be, or they could be being

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very careful and making sure that they are aware of

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their surroundings. That's what I do, so I'm always watching

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for what's going on with people.

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Speaker 2: And where can I move to where it's safe.

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Speaker 1: How does David Brooks play into this story, Well.

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Speaker 3: David Brooks was the first accomplice. He came into it

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as a kid from a broken home where both of

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his parents really wanted very little to do with him.

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And so Coral was there, respected him, gave him a

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place to stay, gave him a car, gave him money,

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and so he was highly vulnerable to someone like Coral

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who knew exactly how to play him. Once he was

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under Coral's influence, he agreed to do some of these

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things because you know, Hollis, he was a dropout, he

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didn't have a job, and here he was getting all

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kinds of benefits from being associated with Coral, so he

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could overlook what Kral was doing to these kids.

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Speaker 1: So basically he was being accepted. So therefore he felt

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like he was a part of Therefore, I'm going to

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do whatever I can so I can keep feeling.

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Speaker 3: This not just accepted respective because he was the brunt

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of bullying. He was a geeky kid and Coral treated

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him well.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever bring up the question of, you know,

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why is it that Dean Coral didn't kill these guys

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I mean because I mean it's like why the men

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that did lose their lives, but he kept the accomplices.

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Speaker 3: He they thought he would eventually kill them to shut

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them up because they knew too much. In fact, the

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day Henley shot Coral, they were about to go on

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a trip that Henley really believed was going to be

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his last days on earth.

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Speaker 1: From this point forward, what do we need to do

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as a society. I know we talked you mental health

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is a very important thing, but we and you also

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talked about awareness. But as a community, it seems like

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once it's off TV or off the front page, while

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we're back to a different thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we are, and we aren't recognizing the importance of

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the victim's stories in these trafficking situations, and we're not

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listening to them and the trauma that they're going through,

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and we're not giving them any really much support.

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Speaker 2: And I think we need to do that.

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Speaker 3: I think we need to listen, recognize the complexity of

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what has happened to them, and find ways to give

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them therapy. Like Wayne had no therapy of any kind

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for the fifty years in prison. It really was me

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coming in that helped him through a lot of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've got to come back to the show anytime

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in the future. The door is always going to be

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open for you. Doctor.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: You'd be brilliant today.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right you too.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.