WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.279 Hello, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, comrades and friends. 2 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:05.759 It hasn't been that long, has it. What with that 3 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:09.000 successful re release of the original Donald Trump, I'm noticing 4 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:11.480 a lot of people are really liking that. So thank 5 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.039 you for those of you who hadn't listened before and 6 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:15.960 are checking it out now, and thank you to those 7 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:18.079 of you who were giving it a re listen. I 8 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:23.399 really appreciate that. So anyway, yeah, I wanted to first 9 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:28.320 acknowledge that and then give you this newest special episode 10 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:31.920 of History Impossible. I want to first thank my executive 11 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:37.280 producer level supporters John Andre Sather and Mike Mayleban, longtime supporters. 12 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:39.840 Really appreciate you, guys. If any of you listening like 13 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:42.320 what I'm doing and want to support at that level 14 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:45.039 or any level, I would really appreciate it. You can 15 00:00:45.119 --> 00:00:48.600 do so over on Patreon dot com, slash History Impossible, 16 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.079 or over on History Impossible dot substack dot com, or 17 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:54.600 you can send me a message via the website History 18 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:56.439 Impossible dot com if you want to support in a 19 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:58.960 different way, or if you just want to, you know, 20 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:01.719 chew me out for something I said that made you 21 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:06.719 not happy. We'll say I do appreciate any and all feedback, 22 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:09.239 especially on more contentious issues like the one that we're 23 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:11.519 about to get into. On top of that, if you 24 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:14.959 want to share this episode, or any of the episodes 25 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:17.799 you've listened to that you like, with someone you think 26 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:22.319 might find them interesting or illuminating, please do so. Promote 27 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:24.200 this show as best you can. That is a really 28 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:27.040 good way to help keep the lights on in its 29 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:30.079 own way. Leaving a review over an Apple Podcasts that 30 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:32.079 also helps. So I've noticed a lot of people listen 31 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:34.079 to this show on Spotify and I don't. I'm not 32 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:37.319 really sure if they have a review system there, So regardless, 33 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:39.560 I appreciate any and all of you who give this 34 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:42.840 show a listen. Like I said, this episode gets into 35 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:47.719 some contentious territory, namely the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas, 36 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:53.400 and it gets into my thoughts on the particular accusation 37 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:57.719 and general I would say use of the word genocide, 38 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:00.760 not just in the case of this conflict. This conflict 39 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:04.239 is the sort of centerpiece to that people who subscribe 40 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.400 to the History Impossible substack or to the Patreon probably 41 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.439 have seen the written version of this, though this has 42 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:12.680 been adapted for an audio format, as many of you 43 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:15.800 listening who have also read that piece will know and 44 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:18.800 can tell, But in this case it goes some pretty 45 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.879 dark places if you haven't gotten a chance to read that. 46 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.639 So those of you have will recognize that, but to 47 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:30.000 those of you haven't, I do want to recommend some caution. 48 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:32.840 I don't often do that with this show, as longtime 49 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:35.280 listeners likely know, but in this case, it does get 50 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:39.599 pretty unpleasant. I also want to note that this is 51 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:43.560 a bit of a It's something I'm trying because this 52 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:46.000 is going to be a bit of a polemical introduction 53 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.879 to the next sort of closer to full length episode 54 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:52.319 that I'm putting out as part of a trilogy of 55 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.919 episodes that I am doing based on the research I've 56 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:58.759 been doing in grad school. This first one we'll have 57 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:02.240 to do with the Air Revolt of nineteen thirty six 58 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:04.759 to nineteen thirty nine. It'll have a much more academic 59 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.199 feel to it, and like I said, you know, using 60 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:10.639 the word polemical, a much less polemical feel to it 61 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:13.000 than this one does. But I got to get my 62 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.319 opinions out there in some cases, guys, I guess that's 63 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:19.360 all I all I can say anyway, with all that said, 64 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:23.000 thank you again for listening, and let's get into some 65 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:24.360 impossible history. 66 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:26.639 Well, let me to tell you what you would have 67 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:27.520 seen and heard. 68 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.240 If will not be pleasant listening, if you're at lunch, 69 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:31.919 or if you have no appetite, now it is a 70 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:33.199 good time to switch auth the radio. 71 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.680 An ancestor of mine main Chaine that if you eliminate 72 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:56.000 the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable. I wish I could 73 00:03:56.039 --> 00:04:00.199 say tonight that a lasting piece is inside. I mean 74 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:03.120 the alopping dream I feel anpping night more. 75 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:12.159 If we share pressure to kill, If we share pressure 76 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:12.719 to kill. 77 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.800 Some say the world will end empire, some stay a 78 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.079 night for what I've tasted. Of desire, I hold with 79 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.759 those of favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, 80 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:26.920 I think I know enough of hate to say that 81 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.160 the destruction ice is also great, and would suffice. 82 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:39.399 This is history or hustle. 83 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:44.560 No du. 84 00:04:46.160 --> 00:05:07.000 Matin h m hm, yell when hell whenne let s 85 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:10.920 u Sierra into Samisburgh. 86 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:20.920 Sierra us haleaki actory defund the. 87 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:22.439 Man m. 88 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:35.399 It's a bed win. Yeah, it's abe jump co Tara 89 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:48.600 Wollops had them in huh tr rock Hexamer Sierra, Lamer Sierra. 90 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:54.079 He's a. 91 00:05:55.800 --> 00:06:08.120 The hire one thing she mm hm, but never than. 92 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:08.680 A half. 93 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:13.319 And am yam. 94 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:29.959 And am I and Aki had a yacht. Yeah look 95 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:33.959 Aki attonman in Mahaddan. 96 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:35.759 A year. 97 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:47.680 This officer had the intill this not hop must nots 98 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:49.160 ymri so. 99 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:55.240 Having them. I came and I'm stating you never. 100 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:01.160 A letter kick, Yes, that's. 101 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:08.079 Eb. 102 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:20.240 I've torn alpeis allah. 103 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.279 Amina. 104 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:34.079 Early on in twenty twenty four, a story from the 105 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.160 Israel Hamas War emerged that did not just tug on 106 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:42.000 the heartstrings, it ripped them free and threw them on 107 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:47.759 the ground. On January twenty ninth, a family including five 108 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:52.600 children was fleeing part of northern Gaza by car. According 109 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:57.000 to a Palestinian Red Crescent Society or PRCS report, the 110 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:00.480 car was struck by an IDF tank, killing everyone side 111 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.759 except a five year old girl named Hindri Job and 112 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:09.759 her fifteen year old cousin, Lyon Hamidae. According to an 113 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:14.680 investigation by Goldsmith's University of London research Group Forensic Architecture, 114 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.759 the tank and fire three hundred and thirty five rounds 115 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:23.600 into the black Kia that carried her, Job and her Family. CNN, 116 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.360 which led the reporting on this incident, described what happened 117 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:32.879 after the initial strike as follows quote. Heine's cousin, fifteen 118 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.960 year old Lion Hamiday, made a desperate call for help 119 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:39.799 to emergency services that was recorded by the PRCS and 120 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:44.320 shared on social media. Audio of gunshots heard during the 121 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:48.519 call revealed that Hamiday was killed while making the call. 122 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:52.279 They are shooting at us. The tank is right next 123 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.799 to me. We're in the car. The tank is right 124 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:59.279 next to us. Lyon screams amid intense gunfire in the background. 125 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:03.720 Lyan then goes quiet and the rounds of fire stop. 126 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:07.919 The paramedic on the phone tries to speak to her, 127 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:15.440 repeatedly saying hello, Hello, but there is no response. Alone, 128 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:18.879 terrified and trapped in the car with the bodies of 129 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.440 her relatives around her, Hind makes a desperate call for help. 130 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.360 Come take me. Will you come and take me? I'm 131 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:32.000 so scared, Please come, Hind can be heard saying in 132 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.240 a recording of the call to the responders released by 133 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:44.960 the PRCS unquote. Rajab and her family were not discovered 134 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.399 until two weeks later, all of them dead, along with 135 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.039 two of the paramedics. Dispatched to rescue them nearby in 136 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:58.039 their destroyed ambulance. According to the PRCS quote, the occupation 137 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:02.720 deliberately targeted the Red Crescent despite obtaining prior coordination to 138 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.320 allow the ambulance to reach the location to rescue the 139 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:10.879 girl Hind. According to the IDF, they initially were quote 140 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:17.600 unfamiliar with the incident described unquote, and the weeks and 141 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:20.840 months that followed the story of Hind and her family's 142 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:25.279 death reverberated through activist circles and among those invested in 143 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.879 the outcome of the ongoing war, with everyone from Hamas's 144 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.519 Foreign Ministry to the rapper Maclamore Weiane in on Israel's 145 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:39.879 alleged crime. Heine's death likely served as a major catalyst 146 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:44.080 for the growing agitation on many of the United States's 147 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.480 college campuses in the spring of twenty twenty four, though 148 00:10:47.559 --> 00:10:50.480 there were certainly many other factors at work during those 149 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:56.000 fevered months. Some reactions were blunt, with the Euromediterranean Human 150 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:00.559 Rights Monitor calling Heine's death quote a planned execution carried 151 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.840 out by the Israeli army in Gaza City in broad daylight, 152 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:10.320 while some were more diplomatic, with the Washington Post writing 153 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.279 that after a thorough review of the evidence by six 154 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.960 munitions experts, it was clear that while none quote could 155 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:20.120 definitively say what munition caused the damage or killed the 156 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.320 paramedics based on the ambulance alone unquote, it was also 157 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:27.960 clear that quote the damage to the ambulance sent to 158 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:31.159 rescue the family was consistent with the potential use of 159 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:34.559 a round fire from Israeli tanks that matched the vehicles 160 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:39.399 captured on satellite imagery in the area that day unquote. 161 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:46.039 But amid all of this analysis and opining, there was 162 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:51.000 a word that kept being repeated. That word was genocide. 163 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.200 We've been hearing that word genocide well at this point 164 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:58.919 for over a year, but at that point we'd been 165 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.240 hearing it since the beginning. But it was when this 166 00:12:02.480 --> 00:12:07.879 happened that many people started saying genocide with much more ferocity. 167 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:13.960 This event was evidence, one piece among many supposedly that 168 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:18.440 Israel was committing a genocide against the Palestinians of Gaza. 169 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.159 It was not just student activists or ideologically possessed opinion 170 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.519 writers saying this either. By this point, you went special 171 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:32.919 reporter on human rights in the Palestinian territories, Francesca Albanese 172 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.159 said much the same thing just a month after Heine's 173 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:41.320 body was discovered. And as I just said, this phrase, 174 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:45.559 this accusation of genocide continues to be said many many 175 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.279 months later, and will likely continue to be said for 176 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.399 many months, if not years to come. It's a very 177 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:55.200 common tread when it comes to discussing this conflict in 178 00:12:55.279 --> 00:13:01.399 certain circles. But this begs the question and is it 179 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:11.200 Is it truly a genocide? This question has been asked many, 180 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:14.639 many times before, especially in the decades following the Second 181 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.600 World War and the revelations of the Holocaust. This general 182 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:25.360 question is this genocide? Perhaps the best known case, at 183 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:30.480 least in very modern history, is a Srebernita massacre, sometimes 184 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:34.399 actually called the Srebrenica genocide, that occurred in the chaotic 185 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:38.759 post yugoslaviyears of the nineteen nineties in Bosnia Herzegovina. 186 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:46.840 The genocide indictment against General Ratcom Maladic divides his crimes 187 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:51.039 into various phases, the early part of the war around 188 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:54.960 pried Or northwest Bosnia, then the siege of Sarajevo in 189 00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:00.559 the center, and then finally the enormous catalog of crimes 190 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:05.440 that took place in this place in nineteen ninety five Srebrenitza. 191 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:17.120 The UN had declared the Srebernitza enclave to be a 192 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:21.159 safe area, but in fact, as Mladich planned its capture, 193 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:24.039 the Dutch UN troops who were meant to defend it 194 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:32.320 had been abandoned by their higher commanders. Srebrenita was overrun 195 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:36.480 and more than twenty thousand frightened Muslim women and children 196 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:40.960 crammed into the Dutch base. Laddich guaranteed the women and 197 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:45.159 children's safe passage, but meanwhile his troops hunted the men 198 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:54.399 of sre Bernitza. They were gathered in places like this school. 199 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:01.919 The man who told us that Melide and Norawich went 200 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:04.799 back with us for only the second time since Serb 201 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:09.039 troops brought him and hundreds of others here to kill them. 202 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:19.000 Kay. 203 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:29.120 Oh thought, yeah, I was okay, just a liseral. 204 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:33.360 H h. 205 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:36.159 M hmmm. 206 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:47.399 Yeah. 207 00:15:49.679 --> 00:16:03.799 Video, what's there? H's once? 208 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:05.159 I'm be. 209 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.799 Mevludin survived by playing dead among the corpses, and at 210 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.320 night he escaped over the mountains to government territory. 211 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:28.200 Oh mhm. 212 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.360 Mevludin Owich is haunted by the loss of his father, 213 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:39.279 brother and numerous cousins, and also by the fact that 214 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:43.879 he still recognizes Serbs around here from those killing fields, 215 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:52.559 it has. 216 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.960 Taken on a level of symbolic horror for countless Bosnian Muslims, 217 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:01.200 and for a good reason. Occurring during the final year 218 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:03.919 of the Bosnian War, which was part of the long 219 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.480 running disintegration of the former Yugoslavia. In the years that 220 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.799 followed jos bros Tito's death in nineteen eighty, forces from 221 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.319 the Army Republica Serpska or the Army of the Serbs 222 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:19.680 of Bosnia, under a man named Rad Komladitch, captured the 223 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:23.920 town of Srebenita on July eleventh, nineteen ninety five, after 224 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.880 overwhelming the Dutch soldiers of the UN Protection Force that 225 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:31.480 were stationed there. Despite the town of Srebinita being declared 226 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:36.720 a humanitarian quote unquote safe area for civilians, the days 227 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:41.240 that followed that initial occupation were an orgy of death 228 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:47.799 and destruction. From July thirteen through the twenty second of 229 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:51.720 nineteen ninety five, groups of men and boys were taken 230 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:55.960 to various sites near Serbenita and executed by gunshot in 231 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:00.720 batches of a few hundred at a time. Sometimes these 232 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:05.960 executions were out in picturesque meadows. Sometimes it was near rivers, 233 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:10.599 and sometimes it was over predug graves, oftentimes dug by 234 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:16.359 the victims themselves. Not all of them were killed, with 235 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.720 some survivors managing to create a picture of the horror 236 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:24.079 that befell the Bossian Muslims of Srebenitza and the surrounding area. 237 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.599 One survivor of the men and boys killed at Branjevo 238 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:35.119 between July fourteenth and July sixteenth would recall the following quote. 239 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.119 When they opened fire, I threw myself on the ground 240 00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:42.839 and one man fell on my head. I think that 241 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:46.000 he was killed on the spot, and I could feel 242 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.519 the hot blood pouring over me. I could hear one 243 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:53.160 man crying for help. He was begging them to kill him, 244 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:57.839 and they simply said, let him suffer, we will kill 245 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:05.240 him later unquote. On the first day of the killing, 246 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.319 another survivor would describe his attempt to escape after several 247 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:13.559 farm sheds in Kravitza were used as killing centers. Quote, 248 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:16.839 I was not even able to touch the floor, the 249 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:21.119 concrete floor of the warehouse. After the shooting, I felt 250 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:24.440 a strange kind of heat, warmth, which was coming from 251 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.440 the blood that covered the concrete floor. And I was 252 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:31.160 stepping on the dead people who were lying around. But 253 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:33.920 there were even men, just men who were still alive, 254 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.279 who were only wounded. And as soon as I would 255 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.160 step on him, I would hear him cry moan. Because 256 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:42.880 I was trying to move as fast as I could. 257 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:47.400 I could tell that people had been completely disembodied, and 258 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:49.359 I could feel the bones of the people that had 259 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.599 been hit by those bursts of bullets or shells. I 260 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.119 could feel their ribs crushing. Then I would get up 261 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:08.200 again and continue. This cruelty exacted upon the people of 262 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:15.079 Strebernita had no discrimination for age either, oftentimes mirroring the 263 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:18.960 savagery visited upon the Serbs by the Croatian Mustasia during 264 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:20.880 the Second World War, which we have talked about on 265 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:25.680 this show. Public torture and murder for the amusement of 266 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:33.160 the occupying soldiers was carried out against children. Survivor Zumra 267 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:38.359 Shejometowitz later testified that at one point the soldiers attempted 268 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.759 to force a boy to rape his nine year old 269 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:46.440 sister and was killed when he refused, and the same 270 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:51.279 rid of summons Kadahochich testified that she saw a baby 271 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:54.200 get its throat cut because its mother could not silence 272 00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:00.279 its cries. And Ramiza Gerdych testified that a urb in 273 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.240 a Dutch uniform, presumably taken from the overwhelmed un forces, 274 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.480 killed a ten year old boy sitting next to his mother, 275 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:11.400 cut his head off, and quote placed the head of 276 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:16.240 the young boy on his knife and showed it to everyone. Quote. 277 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:24.319 With the exception of horrifying events like these, the men 278 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:26.759 and boys had been separated from the women and girls, 279 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:30.119 but the latter did not escape the torment of their captors. 280 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:37.880 By the thousands, women and girls as young as seven 281 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:43.400 years old were frequently and repeatedly raped by the Serb soldiers. 282 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.680 In April nineteen ninety two, Pakira was having coffee at 283 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:57.079 home in Vichigrad with her husband and two teenage daughters 284 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.839 when the local police officer Velko asket in with two 285 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:01.920 Serbian soldiers. 286 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:23.759 Nimble prostitute is about it that was lost, Kadasai scatt 287 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:27.039 the Malja to Niko Koch. 288 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:34.279 You could not hear exactly what this woman was saying 289 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:38.480 in this interview, and what she said does not matter, 290 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.400 particularly as much as the feeling that you could no 291 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:49.440 doubt hear in her voice. This is unfortunately not uncommon 292 00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:55.079 when watching the testimonies of women who survived the Cerebrinita 293 00:22:55.160 --> 00:23:02.440 genocide or the Bossian War in general. What she experienced, 294 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.880 witnessing the rape of her own daughter and then experiencing 295 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:13.680 rape herself was all too common throughout Bosnia during those 296 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:19.160 horrible years of the early nineteen nineties. We can see 297 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:22.279 this in all the testimonies that came out in the 298 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:29.200 years that followed the end of the Bosnian War. A 299 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:33.880 Dutch medical orderly would testify during the prosecutor viv Radaslav 300 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:40.039 Kerstitz judgment the following quote. We saw two Serb soldiers. 301 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.319 One of them was standing guard and the other one 302 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.559 was lying on the girl with his pants off. And 303 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:50.240 we saw a girl lying on the ground on some 304 00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:55.559 kind of mattress. There was blood on the mattress, even 305 00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.119 she was covered with blood. She had bruises on her lefele, 306 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:05.200 there was even blood coming down her legs. She was 307 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:15.680 in total shock. She went totally crazy. Other survivors testified 308 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:18.799 that many rapes like this occurred, and many women often 309 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:24.319 killed themselves by hanging afterward, oftentimes to avoid the shame 310 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:29.480 of being impregnated by their rapist, and this was not 311 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:35.240 unreasonable for them to fear. The systematic nature of the 312 00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:39.240 rapes was made even clearer by the fact that they 313 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:45.519 often occurred in specially designated zones, including gymnasiums, camps, and 314 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:51.279 most disturbingly, the infamous Velinovlas Spa that came to be 315 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:57.960 known as Bosnia's Rape Hotel. This hotel was the headquarters 316 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:01.359 of the White Eagles, headed by the now imprison for 317 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:08.359 life Milan Lukich. Lukitch himself was accused of multiple rapes, 318 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.119 including of a woman who accused him of doing so 319 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:18.400 before killing her sixteen year old son with a knife. Ultimately, 320 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:23.200 the Srebrinita genocide claimed the lives of up to eighty 321 00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:26.680 three hundred and seventy two people, with six thousand, eight 322 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:31.000 hundred thirty eight being identified through DNA analysis as of 323 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:38.279 twenty twelve. However, this figure does not include the estimated 324 00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:42.880 twenty to fifty thousand women who were systematically raped during 325 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:48.160 the three year war. This also does not include the 326 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.039 multitudes of children who were born and who lived to 327 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:55.480 this very day, many of them adopted in the UK 328 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:59.000 and other places thankfully, and have been able to live 329 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:05.480 relatively normal lives despite the circumstances of their conception. You 330 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:08.640 can actually find that interviews of these young people I 331 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:11.880 shouldn't even say that young, they're barely younger than I am. 332 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:16.960 Talking about their experiences. Learning about this disturbing nature of 333 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:23.559 their family's background, one can understand why they would not want, 334 00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.319 or at least their mothers would not want them raised 335 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.680 under such circumstances, especially given the fact that many of 336 00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:34.720 the rapists, the ones at least who were not prosecuted 337 00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.519 and put in prison for their crimes, are walking free 338 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:43.640 to this day, living among the Bosnians that they tormented 339 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:47.119 for years. And this is to say nothing of the 340 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:52.799 intense shame felt by the women who experienced this unthinkable crime. 341 00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:59.240 Because the crime did not just stop at rape. As 342 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.240 bad as that it is, much of that rape, it 343 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:07.519 has been suggested very compellingly, was done in service of 344 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:14.559 what could be called genocide. The use of rape as 345 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:21.079 an ethnic cleansing strategy or even genocide is unbelievably shocking 346 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:26.759 and disturbing, especially to modern readers. So it requires a 347 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:32.119 deeper examination because it provides insight into the most contentious 348 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:39.000 aspect of genocide accusations that is, of the intent to 349 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:45.200 destroy a population at its very root. While it is 350 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:49.319 extremely difficult to apply this standard to every conflict in 351 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.480 history that has involved sexual assault as well as genocide, 352 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:56.559 it is much easier to do so when looking at 353 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.799 the Bosnian War, thanks to the explicitly genericidal nature of 354 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:06.400 the mass rapes that occurred between nineteen ninety two and 355 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:10.720 nineteen ninety five. It had been known that Bosnian Serb 356 00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.480 troops were using rape as an explicit weapon of ethnic cleansing. 357 00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:19.119 According to the remembran Srebred needs to Charity in England, 358 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.880 which was who was interviewing that woman from a couple 359 00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:26.920 moments ago. They write that quote, the rapes were carried 360 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:29.799 out in fulfillment of official orders as part of the 361 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:34.720 Bosnian Serb strategy of ethnic cleansing in the region. Several 362 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:37.960 victims recalled how Serb soldiers re marked that it is 363 00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:47.039 better to give birth to Chetniks than to Muslim filth quote. However, 364 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.119 while rape was certainly involved from a legal and even 365 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.920 philosophical perspective, calling it genocidal in and of itself is 366 00:28:56.119 --> 00:29:00.920 not quite accurate. In fact, the icidal nature of the 367 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:05.400 crime is like all genocide in the intent behind the 368 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:12.119 rapes themselves. That intent is the goal of forced impregnation. 369 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:18.519 As legal scholar Cybin K Fisher wrote in a paper 370 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:24.519 explaining this phenomenon quote, the conflict in the former Yugoslavia 371 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.200 also raises a question beyond the criminal treatment of rape 372 00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:32.359 during war. For perhaps the first time in modern history, 373 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.359 an aggressor in a military conflict may have used rape 374 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.240 not only as a tool of war, but also to 375 00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:42.759 implement a policy of impregnation in order to further the 376 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:47.279 destruction of one people and the proliferation of another, a 377 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:54.480 policy of genocide by forced impregnation. Forced impregnation, as an 378 00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:57.480 intentional policy of an aggressor to destroy a group of people, 379 00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:00.680 is distinct from the crime of rape, and is at 380 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:06.440 its core a crime of genocide. Genocide, as defined in 381 00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:10.240 the Genocide Convention of nineteen forty eight, involves the destruction 382 00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:14.599 of a group of people. It may seem counterintuitive that 383 00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.799 impregnation the creation of new life, can in fact be 384 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:25.119 an instrument of genocide, but force impregnation interference with autonomous 385 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:30.799 reproduction can destroy a group. This interference in the group's 386 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:36.200 reproduction may take a number of forms. First, women may 387 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.000 be psychologically traumatized by the pregnancy and unable to have 388 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:43.799 normal sexual or child bearing experiences with members of their 389 00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:48.640 own group. Second, women who are raped and bear the 390 00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:51.920 children of the aggressors may no longer be marriageable in 391 00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:57.960 their society. Third, the women, simply because they are pregnant 392 00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:01.119 with the children of the aggressors, cannot bear their own 393 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:10.160 children during this time their wombs are occupied. It is 394 00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:15.279 indeed counterintuitive, and yet that is what makes this interpretation 395 00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:23.599 of force impregnation via rape so chilling. It is also 396 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:28.880 illuminating because the aforementioned intent behind the rape, the deeper intent, 397 00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:31.920 the desire to eliminate or at to very least curtail 398 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:36.799 an entire population of people based on ethnic and religious characteristics, 399 00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:41.359 lines up with the most important part in the definition 400 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:46.359 of genocide. The hard truth for so many to accept, 401 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:51.440