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Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is

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not intended for all audiences.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: Shouldn't happen.

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Speaker 3: It shouldn't happen, And anyway, I just wanted to be

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known that I didn't kill John.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Season thirteen, episode three hundred and forty two

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of Sword and Scale show the reveals that the worst

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monsters are real. In the early hours of May eighteenth,

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twenty seventeen, in Parma Heights, Ohio, a working class suburb

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twenty miles south of Cleveland, which sounds like a lovely place,

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I might add, like the rest of the state. Burrow

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Road cuts through the town in a long stretch of

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strip plazas and small storefronts, hair salons, nail studios, pizza shops.

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You know, the kind of useless strip ball that inhabits

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pretty much every city in America. Well, those shops are

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usually owned by locals in These businesses open early, close late,

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and no they're regulars by name. The strip is dark

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and small shops are locked up for the night. The

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early morning is called except for one thing. A burglar

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is ready to do his thing. He grabs a landscaping

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stone hauls it up and hurls it at the front

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door of Classic Hair Studio. The glass explodes, the stone

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breaking apart into chunks across the floor. He doesn't hesitate.

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He ducks inside, head straight for the counter, and he

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yanks the entire cash register, loose, the drawer, jerks free,

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cords snapping, and he's out in seconds. Inside the cash register,

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he finds almost three hundred dollars in cash, and the

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machine itself is probably worth a couple hundred more.

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Speaker 5: We're here, Hi, it's in Carmania. I'm not going to

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say it's an emergency, but I was driving to work

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and I noticed that the door on a beauty shop

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is totally smashed on Pearl Road. The address is sixty

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four twelve. It's called Classic Studio and their front doors

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is totally smashed. I mean anybody can go inside.

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Speaker 6: At this point.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I noticed yet, and I Turnerrund went back, thinking

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did I really see that?

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Speaker 7: And sure enough I did so.

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Speaker 1: Okay, with God, I'd recorded a.

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Speaker 4: Few doors down. He does it again, another front door smashed,

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this time at the Nail Studio. Instead of taking the

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whole register, he opens the drawer. This one has fifty

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dollars inside, but it doesn't matter. Any amount of money

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is worth it. He's desperate. The glass crunches under his

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boots as he walks away, leaving two shops in ruins

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behind him.

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Speaker 7: And I'm the store manager here. Just count drug mark

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right next to us. There is a it's sixty four

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eighty eight your road. There's the Spine Nail place right

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next to the drug mark here that I'm I'm in

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charge of. There's the glasses broken out on the front

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door here at the Nail and spa place.

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Speaker 6: All right, I believe we just clear it there.

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Speaker 7: Oh oh, okay, I'm sorry. I just I didn't know

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if anyone was out or anything.

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Speaker 8: I believe the address is.

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Speaker 7: It's just sixty four eighty eight on the door here.

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Speaker 9: Okay, then that's a different one.

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Speaker 7: It's called Spy and Nails.

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Speaker 4: By sunrise, both storefronts are cordoned off with yellow tape.

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Patrol officers sweep glass into piles while the owners pull

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up the surveillance video. A white male short with a

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bald spot and tattoos on his arms. The time stamp

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on the camera is wrong, but they already know the

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crimes happened overnight. The owners are terrified, and one vows

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to shut down the business. She wonders how this could

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happen in such a family friendly town. Parma Heights has

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one of the lowest crime rates in the nation, at

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least that's what the statistics say. Whoever the perpetrator is,

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he probably should have worn a mask. His face is

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front and center on the surveillance camera. Not only that,

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the outside cameras catch him speeding off in a white jeep.

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It doesn't take long to bring in Thomas enough for questioning.

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Speaker 10: Okay, all right, do you have any day parmaitches here

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to speak with you? No, well, I had a couple

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of breakings in my city at his spawn ales and

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then another Classic care studios.

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Speaker 11: You know anything about them? No, nothing at all?

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Speaker 10: All right, why I get surveillan's video of the vehicle

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and the person breaking into their business. Okay, so let

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me pull this stuff up here. Recognize that person looks

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like it could be all right.

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Speaker 11: So let's do this.

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Speaker 10: Recognize them Pa twos Yeah, huh yeah, do you remember

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doing this or No?

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Speaker 4: Tom seemed like your average guy next door. He just

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didn't have that typical criminal look about him. If there

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even is such a thing. You look more like a

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dad sitting on the bleaks of his son's football game.

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And Thomas did have a son, a good kid who

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unfortunately had to be raised by Tom's sister. During the

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last fifteen years he was in prison for aggravated robbery.

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So looks can be deceiving, that's what they say.

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Speaker 10: Anyway, you're running, you take a cash register from the

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one place and some cash from the second place, okay,

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and then you're in You're in a white jeep that

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looks like it blowing to you your son, but registered

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to your sister.

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Speaker 11: Maybe okay, okay, But a more more recent photo of

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be would be this. What the hell happened to it?

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Speaker 12: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Smash the window?

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Speaker 11: Did you do that?

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Speaker 2: Ever? Yeah?

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Speaker 11: Okay? What happened?

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Speaker 1: I mean, just went off road? Did a true branch?

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Speaker 11: Did you mean to go off road? Or was it

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kind of yeah, okay, trying to hurt yourself or what?

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Speaker 3: No, just just went off was off road on the

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spot where we used to go off roading.

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Speaker 11: So you're just gonna go out there and be like

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maha or what? I don't know. I don't know, man.

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I appreciate you being honest.

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Speaker 4: Tom tried to be a good dad. Well maybe not,

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but he really did love his son and old habits

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die hard that included going on benders, robbing businesses, and

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off roading. This time, it just happened to be that

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he had no vehicle, so he took his son's jeep

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and damaged it.

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Speaker 11: How messed up were you during this time?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, sir?

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Speaker 11: Okay, all right, but well there's you know what.

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Speaker 10: Unfortunately you know, due to this and the video and stuff,

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I got half of you. And then how it got

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to you is we actually the news of hold of

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it because I put something on our Facebook page and

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then your sister did action want to call it and said, hey, listen,

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that's my brother in my car.

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Speaker 11: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 10: So kind of let us see you. But I had

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some previous things allowed to you. It looks like you

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had a history of Brunswick can readily called me. He says, Hey, listen,

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I know that guy. You might you might want to

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give him a call. Everything he did is what he

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used to do when they used to deal with you

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a lot.

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Speaker 13: Huh.

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Speaker 11: So what mean when you were you were in jail

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for a little bit, you get out and what happened.

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Speaker 3: I just I don't know, man, I just got how

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and things weren't like I thought it was going to be.

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Speaker 11: You know, I had nowhere to go, Okay, no family

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was helping here.

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Speaker 1: What my mom passed?

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Speaker 4: You know, a lot had changed in the fifteen years

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he was on the inside, y'all see shawsh ink right.

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Think about how smartphones didn't even exist in two thousand

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and two. Everybody was still using a flip phone. There

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was no social media, at least not like today. Facebook

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launched in two thousand and four, YouTube in two thousand

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and five, and Twitter in two thousand and six. Instagram

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came around in twenty ten, and uh, I won't even

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mentioned TikTok. In two thousand and two, when he went

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into prison, people were still using Aol instant messenger and

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MySpace wasn't even a thing yet. If you wanted to

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go somewhere, you couldn't just tap on your phone and

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have directions show up or even rent out to you.

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You had to print something out from a site called

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map quest. I shit, you not on your ink jet

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printer and hope that the directions were accurate. Kids nowadays

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can't even figure out what gender they are. Could you

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imagine if you took GPS away from them. If Tom

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repeated as little heist today, he'd be lucky to find

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one dollar in the cash register. People don't even use

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cash anymore, just their Klarna debit cards, which they have

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no intention of ever paying back. Another big difference in

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two thousand and two is that we weren't all spying

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on each other. No one was lurking nearby to film

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you on their phone, waiting to post it somewhere for

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the world to see. Security cameras existed, but we're reserved

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for big businesses. No wonder Tom didn't wear a mask.

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Not only was he too shitfaced to even think about

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a security camera, but he just wasn't expecting these tiny

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businesses to own one. In two thousand and two, voicemail

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was still a thing and people actually checked it. Tom

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felt like he'd been swallowed up by time, but it

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wasn't just the tech that had left him behind. While

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he was on the inside, his world fell apart his

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mom died. She was the family anchor. There were some

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rough years between him and his stepdad, but his mom

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was always there for the kids, probably almost too much.

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Speaker 14: My mom struggled for the last three or four years

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before she passed, trying to keep the house afloat and

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still help my sister with bills and with her kids.

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Speaker 1: And as soon.

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Speaker 14: As my mom dies, you know, I told my sister

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well here to take my money and paid a banknote

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all on borrowing money against the house or her court.

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Speaker 1: Her husband had allowed.

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Speaker 14: It to go into such disappeared that she didn't want

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to fuck with it all, and so she led the

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bank habit. And uh yeah, I told her, I said,

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you know, I feel like you.

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Speaker 11: You don't spit on her grains.

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Speaker 8: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 11: You should have let him.

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Speaker 14: You should have let the bank habit four years ago

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instead of moving them on the roll of stretch.

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Speaker 1: She didn trying to.

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Speaker 14: She was the only one that ever had a solid

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career and a working a steady work, you know what

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I mean, with good money. So you know she's painting

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like everybody's cell.

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Speaker 1: Phone bill, everybody build baby.

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Speaker 10: Sit or certain sys have got a good relationship or no. No.

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Speaker 4: His sister took over the money, and according to Tom,

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she mismanaged it. She also failed to get the car

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Tom had wrecked from the impound because it was too

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much trouble. Tom was pissed because the car belonged to

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his son, Tommy and still had some of his personal

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belongings in it. According to Tom, his sister helped raise

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Tommy and had been a good fluence, but ever since

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their mother passed, she was all about herself. His sister,

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of course, had a different story. There was a time

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when they partied together as teens and acted more like

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friends than siblings. But then Tom got a girl pregnant

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when he was nineteen, and things changed. His sister had

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lost a baby boy, and now she found herself stepping

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in to parent Tom's son. Tom continued to party and

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went to rehab at least once.

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Speaker 15: It was like usually every time he went to rehab,

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this stuff would come out. Missy does everything well, Missy

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has a job, Missy went to school. I paid for it.

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He always, I guess, felt like I got everything. But

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in reality, my grandparents were draining their bank account for him,

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and their whole life revolved around him. And then what

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was going on? But he always and he still will

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and recently that when my mom died, he wrote Tommy

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letters the same old stuff like Missy got.

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Speaker 4: This, and his sister Missy remembered that their mother practically

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enabled him.

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Speaker 15: She was always their form, and even if he stole

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from her, he could still come home. I don't her backward.

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I think I told you when I found out when

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she died, that she had all these check cashing and stuff.

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When I'd found all the.

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Speaker 9: Receipts commissary and to people like Latasha, Maquisha and some

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of my brother's crowd, you know, and Akron and Youngstown

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and you know wherever, and it was always, well, he

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needs hygiene products.

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Speaker 15: It's like he doesn't need three hundred dollars.

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Speaker 4: We've all experienced someone in the family like this, right.

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It always seems like the one who gets in trouble

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the most, or is the least productive, gets all the attention,

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doesn't it. Yeah, Fuck the productive one who pays his

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bills and minds his own business. Let's focus all of

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our baby bird attention on this idiot over here that

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can't get their shit together. Tom was about twenty five

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when he went to prison, and now he was forty two,

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with no home to go back to, no mommy to

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run to, and a son who was almost an adult

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now ready to live his own life. He had a

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lot to figure out and even more to make up for,

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and yet here he was back at the police station.

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Since he got out, he'd been looking for a place

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to stay, but his parole had restrictions, no guns, no drugs,

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on and on. His anxiety was increasing. In the previous

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night's drunken binge was going to land him in jail again.

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Things were about to get worse.

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Speaker 10: I don't see your son wanted to be baitchful against

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you at all, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 11: I think he just wants to had around, you know

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what I mean?

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Speaker 16: Unfortunately, listen, and like I said, I mean, this mom

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was letting me stay.

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Speaker 1: There and until I got a place and.

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Speaker 16: That didn't work out for the roll, and then she

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kind of wanted to start a relationship again.

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Speaker 1: And then when I didn't.

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Speaker 3: Because I had a girlfriend, she kind of flipped on me.

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Speaker 11: Okay.

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Speaker 1: And then, like I said, my sister, you know she enhurges.

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Speaker 11: Was that girlfriend, the girl we were looking for that

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was missing?

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Speaker 1: Oh have you heard?

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Speaker 11: Do you know where she's at? By any chance?

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Speaker 1: It's just an old friend of mine, Okay.

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Speaker 11: Still never heard any content of anything where she could be.

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She I don't know.

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Speaker 2: She was like when I was writing from jail, we

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lost contact, but she's stayed in touch with my mom.

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Speaker 11: Okay, so when my mom.

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Speaker 1: Died, she kind of come back in the picture.

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Speaker 14: Then her mom died, then she took off the Texas

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and came back and her and her friend actually picked

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me up from jail.

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Speaker 1: But who was it?

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Speaker 11: Who was her friend that came with you?

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Speaker 1: An old, same old guy, John John Mayn. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: In that clip they were talking about the mother of

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Tom's son. When he got out of prison, he was

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hoping to stay at her house, but that didn't work

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out because she wanted to rekindle the relationship and he

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had long since moved on with two different women. Forty

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nine year old Regina Capo Bianco was one of them.

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About fifteen years earlier, she had signed up for a

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prison pen pal program where she met Tom. Yeah, she

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was one of those weirdos. They constantly wrote each other

300
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and promised they would meet up once he was out.

301
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The problem for Tom, at least, was that he was

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looking for stability, and before he even got out he

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started to see that she had issues. I wonder how

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he found out. Could it have been maybe the fact

305
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she was writing inmates Maybe that was it there, Tom,

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Maybe that was the whole problem.

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Speaker 11: Anyway.

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Speaker 4: Regina had been living at home with her mother, but

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at some point in their friendship, her mother also tied,

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leaving her without a home. Her life took a downward

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turn into alcoholism. This was the last thing Tom needed,

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and besides, he had already started seeing someone else. These

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inmates can really pulse a puss, if you know what

314
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I mean. When Tom was released, Regina was living with

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a partner, an older man named John Mann. This was

316
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a quid pro quo situation, if you know what that means,

317
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a friends with benefits sort of relationship where she would

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help take care of him and his house in exchange

319
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for a place to stay. She was a househore basically.

320
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Regina and John had generously offered to let Tom stay

321
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there too until he got on his feet, But Tom

322
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could already see the writing on the wall and knew

323
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this would be the worst environment possible for him. It

324
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was true that he accepted Regina John's offer to pick

325
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,880
him up from prison upon his release, but he told

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him he planned to find his own lodging. The last

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he'd heard of Regina, she was about to celebrate her

328
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fiftieth birthday.

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Speaker 13: And one one what's the address of the emergency?

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Speaker 6: So we have a neighbor across the street and they

331
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,000
just got home and there's a lady that's like on

332
00:18:19,079 --> 00:18:21,720
the ground and can't get up, and they're like hovering

333
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,400
over her. So in the front yard, in the front yard. Yeah,

334
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,039
she's an older lady in her fifties with dark go

335
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,000
brown hair. Wait, they're picking her up and carrying her

336
00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:35,960
into the room into her white female waite female. So

337
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,079
can barely stand up, so they're walking or in carrying her.

338
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Speaker 4: Now, it's one thing to get a little carried away

339
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,359
for your fiftieth birthday, But when was the last time

340
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,160
your neighbors called nine one one on you because you

341
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,079
were passed out in your yard? And I hope you

342
00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,119
weren't in your fifties?

343
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Speaker 7: Sure, three joke ahead Regina's birthday.

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Speaker 6: She apparently had too much.

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Speaker 7: Drink, but she was up, walking around and talking, able

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00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,079
to answer some simple questions. So she's been a durle

347
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,680
guy ar and keep an eyeron for the night before me.

348
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Speaker 4: Coppy Tom remembered warning Regina to get up that day,

349
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but when she wasn't able to, he and John literally

350
00:19:16,839 --> 00:19:19,200
had to drag her into the house.

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Speaker 1: On her fiftieth birthday.

352
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Speaker 16: She got trashed and was puping up her faked teeth,

353
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and I'm like, come on, Regina, I'm like an old

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00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:28,200
lady and saw that, and I told her too, I'm like,

355
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,200
please get up. You know you're laying in your puke.

356
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,039
I'm like, it's nice area. Someone's gonna call the police. No,

357
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,079
sooner than I said it. They're coming a couple of

358
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,599
farm tops. And yeah, so it looked crazy like you

359
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,920
got an older guy and you got this guy tattoo's

360
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,480
dragging this girl in the house. I mean, especially after

361
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all that shit that happened in Cleveland with them girls

362
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being known for all that years.

363
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Speaker 1: You don't know, She's always been like that.

364
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Speaker 16: She's a good heart, good girl through writing, like as

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much as we wrote.

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Speaker 4: In prison, Regina may have had a good heart, but

367
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she was a wild card. Though he did stay at

368
00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:05,279
Regina and John's a couple of times since he got out,

369
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he mostly bounced around hotels with his current girlfriend. He

370
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,599
was right to steer clear of Regina as much as possible.

371
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The last thing he needed was to get roped into

372
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another bad situation. But Tom, the guy just trying to

373
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keep his head down and reconnect with his son, was

374
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,880
about to be pulled into something a lot bigger than

375
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a stolen cash register and e wrecked jeep, something that

376
00:20:34,000 --> 00:21:17,240
would change his life forever.

377
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Speaker 11: It was late.

378
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Speaker 4: June twenty seventeen in Parma Heights, Ohio, a Cleveland suburb

379
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with a reputation for safety not violent crime. In the

380
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,559
last few weeks, police responded to a string of late

381
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,240
night burglaries. The suspect, Thomas Nuff, was quickly caught. He

382
00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:42,519
admitted to everything, saying he was broke and desperate. Hotels

383
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,680
were getting expensive. Tom had just been released from prison

384
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after serving fifteen years. Since then, he'd bounced between hotels,

385
00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:55,000
old girlfriends, and temporary stays with people willing to help,

386
00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:00,880
including a penpal named Regina Capobianco. My boyfriend even gave

387
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,920
him a ride from prison. He stayed at her place

388
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,039
a couple of nights, but mostly kept his distance. She

389
00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:11,279
had a good heart, but she was a little unpredictable.

390
00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:18,079
Then Regina stopped answering her phone. Her sister worried I.

391
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 11: Miss her every day.

392
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,559
Speaker 17: I miss sending her pictures of the girls of my grandkids.

393
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Speaker 1: And calling her.

394
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Speaker 11: That was all taken from me.

395
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Speaker 17: Anne Berkeley, can't do that anymore.

396
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Speaker 1: I call Regina Reggie.

397
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Speaker 17: Reggie had a contagious laugh. If you would ask anybody

398
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what they remember most about Reggie, it will be her laugh.

399
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Speaker 4: The police had been to her house already, but they

400
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,759
didn't execute a full search. Neighbors had seen stickers on

401
00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:56,039
the door about a potential foreclosure and just assumed John

402
00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:01,039
was evicted. Now weeks had passed, they go back, and

403
00:23:01,079 --> 00:23:05,319
what they find inside is worse than anything anyone's imagined.

404
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,400
What they walk into is a hoarder's nightmare. Trash banks, boxes,

405
00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:17,640
rotting food. The air is thick and sour, the kind

406
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,279
of stench you think is garbage until you realize it's not.

407
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,720
Specialized agents are called in along with cadaver dogs, but

408
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,759
even the dogs refuse to go inside. The odor of

409
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:38,759
decomposition is overwhelming. They stubbornly sit outside, like, no way, man,

410
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,200
I ain't going in there. We ain't touching this. That's

411
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kind of what I imagine dogs sound like. You can get

412
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,039
into their head, yo, bro, we ain't going in there,

413
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That's all I'm saying.

414
00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:50,519
Speaker 11: Dog.

415
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,559
Speaker 4: The search stops here. I think it's kind of cute.

416
00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,839
Imagine a Doberman talking like that. Anyway. Fortunately, agents come

417
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,359
prepared with full protective masks and oxygen tanks. This is

418
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,240
a full hazmat situation we got going on. They enter

419
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:11,480
through the back door of the ranch home, past the

420
00:24:11,599 --> 00:24:17,000
shattered window, dead flies, carpet the floor. The second bedroom

421
00:24:17,079 --> 00:24:20,839
is by far the worst. Flies swarm in the air,

422
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:27,000
the stench pools in the room. Maggots wriggle in a

423
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,559
disgusting puddle at the foot of the bed, a puddle

424
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:34,359
they trace to amount of trash and blankets. When they

425
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,559
start to move it, they see skin, then bone, then

426
00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:45,559
what looks like a leg, then a skull. The hallway

427
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,359
carpet has been cut away, and blood stains stretched from

428
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,079
the kitchen into the living room, where the carpet has

429
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,200
also been removed under trash and clothing. In the second

430
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,720
bedroom they find John Mann's body a mire of decomposed,

431
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:09,359
rotting flesh, unrecognizable, and behind him, up against the wall,

432
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,559
they find a second figure wrapped in a wet Harley

433
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,480
Davidson blanket. The blanket is form fitting. They can see

434
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,319
the outline of Regina's head before it's even pulled back,

435
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,680
She's face up, sweater rolled up above her eyes, one

436
00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:30,119
foot exposed, and the rest of her body hidden beneath

437
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,960
layers of filth. A purple condom wrapper is found near

438
00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:39,960
her head. At first, Tom wasn't the obvious suspect. Even

439
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,319
though he had a criminal background, his crimes didn't involve

440
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,599
violence against anyone, and he had a son he desperately

441
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,680
wanted to reconnect with. Why would he risk throwing that

442
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:55,960
all away? He already messed up by getting stupid, drunken

443
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:01,799
breaking into the salons, stupid and sloppy, but not murder.

444
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:04,920
But because he was one of the only people who

445
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,720
had a connection with both Regina and John, they started

446
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,119
to dig where else had Tom been staying since he

447
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,039
got out, who else was helping him? And that's when

448
00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:21,559
his current girlfriend came up, Alicia Stoner. She wasn't just

449
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,079
his girlfriend, she was a social worker at the prison.

450
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,000
Imagine that you realize.

451
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 12: How serious certainly last going on with him, and we

452
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,880
understand that we time to talk about it yesterday. So yeah,

453
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,599
I understand if things don't come back to he at

454
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,200
certain times, but we just want to have that line

455
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,200
of communication of what good we can get through some

456
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,200
of this information today.

457
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 11: Most of it.

458
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,559
Speaker 4: Alicia was working at the same prison that Tom was

459
00:26:50,599 --> 00:26:55,759
serving time in. Tom was attractive to her for some reason,

460
00:26:56,559 --> 00:27:00,559
probably for the same reason why some women right to inmates,

461
00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:05,400
some particular crazy bitches take that extra step and get

462
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,880
a job at the prison. It's one hell of a

463
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,200
world we're living in, I'll tell you. Maybe it was

464
00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:15,880
the bad boy prisoner thing. Maybe it was his charming

465
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,480
gift of gab who knows who cares. Whatever the case,

466
00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:23,559
he was writing to multiple women, including Regina, and they

467
00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:28,599
were all falling for it. With Alicia, he had the

468
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,799
added pleasure of interacting personally. That is until she quit

469
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,720
due to an obvious conflict of interest. She chose Tom

470
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:43,400
over her job and they continued their relationship. Imagine choosing

471
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:49,920
a criminal over your job. These two lovebirds wrote poems

472
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:55,960
to each other, long handwritten love letters. They were soul mates.

473
00:27:57,079 --> 00:28:00,720
When detectives interviewed Alicia for the first time, she didn't

474
00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:04,160
want to say much, But after she realized that she

475
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,240
could be implicated and ultimately served time, that's when she

476
00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:10,200
started to talk.

477
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,039
Speaker 8: I just want to clarify some things that I wasn't

478
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:15,359
direct with Okay, okay.

479
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,039
Speaker 12: But maybe this dream of minimizing some of this so

480
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,160
that it's oh, I did lesser issue.

481
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 8: I avoided, I minimized, irrationalized, I did all the defense mechanism.

482
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 12: Guy, Now it just comes down to telling us the truth.

483
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,839
Speaker 4: On paper, Alicia didn't look like the kind of woman

484
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,079
who'd ever be connected to a double homicide. She was

485
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,920
a mental health worker, and she was married, But somehow

486
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,400
she was charmed by this asshole. After his release in

487
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,200
April twenty seventeen, Alicia became more than just his girlfriend.

488
00:28:47,279 --> 00:28:52,200
She was his driver, his banker, and his safety net.

489
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,680
When parole rules barred Tom from living with her, she

490
00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:59,359
paid for his motel rooms. When he needed money, she

491
00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:02,920
wired it, and when he called her in the middle

492
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,839
of the night, she came. On May twelfth, twenty seventeen,

493
00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:10,880
Alicia drove to pick him up after he made a

494
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,960
desperate phone call. She remembered his left index finger was

495
00:29:15,119 --> 00:29:19,720
badly cut, a fresh wound he couldn't easily explain when.

496
00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 8: We discussed about initially me getting the phone call from Thomas,

497
00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:26,519
and he called me, and he did say to me,

498
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,599
if I ever meet you with now, and I know

499
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,039
he gave me, this is where I'm going to tell you.

500
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,119
Speaker 11: Just okay. I know he gave me directions at some point.

501
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:38,559
And here's what I see.

502
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:41,279
Speaker 8: When I'm driving and I'm crossing over Meander, I'm on

503
00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:43,640
the phone with him and he tells me Regina and

504
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:44,279
John are dead.

505
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 11: Okay.

506
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:49,119
Speaker 12: That helps spark so memory of the conversation, that of

507
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,440
him telling you when you got there, was there anything more?

508
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 11: That there's more?

509
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 3: Okay.

510
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,559
Speaker 8: So it's accurate with him with the hood coming out

511
00:29:55,599 --> 00:29:57,920
and he gets in my car where I tell you,

512
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,400
I me park where I tell you and does let

513
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,759
me say this The story I was supposed to tell

514
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,720
was that he got into a bar fight for the finger,

515
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,680
because he says to me, all you know is that

516
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,440
I got into a bar fight for the six Okay.

517
00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:12,119
Speaker 11: So that's what I told you.

518
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 4: Tom's version started with his relationship with John. He felt

519
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,839
sorry for John because Regina was taking advantage of him.

520
00:30:20,519 --> 00:30:23,039
What started as a partnership had turned into a one

521
00:30:23,039 --> 00:30:26,839
way street that ended with Regina being the only happy partner.

522
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,440
She came and went as she pleased. She took John's

523
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,559
money and did little in exchange. She even started seeing

524
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:37,839
other guys and bringing them back to the house.

525
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,799
Speaker 3: So when I met John, you know, he might have

526
00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:44,480
been a dirt bag and a lot of things, but

527
00:30:45,319 --> 00:30:47,640
I just took him as an old hippie, nice guy.

528
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:49,720
He was going to get kicked out of the house soon,

529
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:51,440
but he needed someone to motograss.

530
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: And first of.

531
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:55,599
Speaker 3: All, you know, I want everybody to know that, you know,

532
00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:01,480
I've never had any sexual relationships with Regina. We met

533
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,799
in two thousand and five his pen pals, and for

534
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:06,839
about a year and a half we kind of were

535
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,720
writing a lot and had ideas of getting out being together.

536
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,200
Of course, then I felt a lot different than I

537
00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:15,160
knew now about what I wanted.

538
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: In life and a woman.

539
00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 3: And she's always been super wild and told me a

540
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,759
lot of crazy stories I never realized. And of course

541
00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:25,079
she's probably progressed and got worse, you know what I mean.

542
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,680
So I never realized, you know, like until her fiftieth birthday,

543
00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:31,920
how she was drinking.

544
00:31:32,559 --> 00:31:35,319
Speaker 4: If he wasn't convinced at her fiftieth birthday party that

545
00:31:35,359 --> 00:31:39,799
she was an out of control partier, an incident that

546
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,920
happened at a gas station confirmed it she'd been drinking.

547
00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:47,200
He says she came out of the restroom with toilet

548
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,279
paper hanging out of her pants. When he politely brought

549
00:31:51,279 --> 00:31:55,200
it to her attention, she says, watch this, and she

550
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,599
pulls it out and plasters it on the chest of

551
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,200
a little old lady who's walking pie. Gross.

552
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: So we didn't talk for a while, you know, a

553
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,880
few weeks, and I ended up when I needed a

554
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,240
place to stay, and I knew that, you know, they

555
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,799
were still entertaining that idea when I was in jail.

556
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,559
So I called her up and she said, well, you know,

557
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,039
she was mad at me, but I said, hey.

558
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,279
Speaker 1: You know, what are you mad for? You know what

559
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:21,960
I mean, the way you were acting, and I can't

560
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:22,359
have that.

561
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,599
Speaker 3: Well, so I had met John a few times and

562
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,920
he had confided in me that he kind of wanted

563
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,960
her out, but she told him like, welly I get

564
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,640
mail here, so you got to evict me. And then

565
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,079
he was kind of like, well, I've known her for

566
00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:37,880
a while. I kind of love her. But at the

567
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,960
same time, he's like, you know, she don't talk my

568
00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:40,680
dick no more.

569
00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: She don't do this.

570
00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 3: And for her, you know, she i'd seen her drunk,

571
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,440
like you know, you can't get it hard, real nasty,

572
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:48,039
you know, what I mean.

573
00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: So I'm like, I feel bad for him.

574
00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 4: You know, he felt bad for John, so he started

575
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,200
coaching him on how he could get rid of Regina

576
00:32:56,279 --> 00:32:59,000
by evicting her. It would be a bonus that he'd

577
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:02,599
get to live there with John. In effect, he planned

578
00:33:02,599 --> 00:33:06,400
to replace Regina. Tom said he didn't have much, but

579
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,720
he would help him in any way he could, just

580
00:33:09,799 --> 00:33:13,759
not sexually. John wasn't getting that anyway.

581
00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: Ended up, you know, taking some of my stuff there

582
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:18,799
because you know, she didn't know it.

583
00:33:18,799 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: At the time, but John was going to try to birthday.

584
00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 11: He took some stuff there, okay, all right.

585
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,119
Speaker 3: So I took my blue bin and had my clothes

586
00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:29,039
in it, okay, And I had it like a duffel

587
00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:31,759
bag that had like my little homemade tattoo shit in it,

588
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:34,599
lived brown tan bag. And you know, I wasn't like

589
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,519
trying to like move in or nothing yet. I didn't

590
00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:39,039
know what the status was going to be as far

591
00:33:39,039 --> 00:33:41,720
as John getting her out of the house. I kind

592
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,759
of was like, I'm not gonna lie to you. I said,

593
00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:48,079
you know, I can get you good, bud, I'll keep

594
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:50,240
you smoking, I'll give you fifty bucks a week, but

595
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,480
I can't live here with her. And another reason why

596
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,079
I really blame myself is just for entertaining the idea

597
00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:57,680
and telling him about this stuff about being elderly and

598
00:33:57,759 --> 00:33:59,880
being able to evict her that.

599
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,759
Speaker 1: That's I guess why she loved the fuck out, you

600
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:02,319
know what I mean?

601
00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: And you know, I hear them outside yelling and arguing,

602
00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:08,000
and the dogs are barking and the little you know,

603
00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:11,000
they're loud, and I'm like, I could hear it outside.

604
00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 4: So the day this all went down, John had confronted Regina.

605
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,559
She laughed it off and said she was going to

606
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:19,880
go out and meet a guy at a bar and

607
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,039
they might come back to the house. While she was out,

608
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:26,079
John had fallen asleep, so she texted Tom asking him

609
00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:29,119
to put the dogs away because she was bringing this

610
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,960
guy back. Tom didn't want to be around for that,

611
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,960
so he says he left.

612
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 3: Well, I just chose to leave, you know. I took

613
00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:38,559
a walk in the neighborhood, so I didn't want to

614
00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:40,360
be there listening to him in a sex whatever was

615
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,800
going on. Well, I had come home and whoever the

616
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,800
guy she had there was gone, and hearn John were arguing,

617
00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:54,280
and she's drunk. I mean probably didn't take her musk

618
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,840
get drunk anyway. She's such a little person, you know

619
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,280
what I mean. And they're fighting and I'm out in

620
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,599
the backyard. Dogs are going crazy. I'm surprised nobody called

621
00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:08,639
the police, you know, And something just changed in the tone,

622
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,599
and I come in, you know what I mean. I

623
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,039
didn't come in, and really I didn't want to interrupt nose.

624
00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was said.

625
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,119
Speaker 3: And I came in and Regina was attacking him with

626
00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:21,800
a knife, and I stopped her. I actually got pictures.

627
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,480
It took me to believe me. As little she is,

628
00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:27,320
she was pretty strong, you know what I mean. And

629
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,079
I had a little mark here where I had a

630
00:35:30,079 --> 00:35:31,639
little cut, and I got a bunch of cuts on

631
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:33,920
my hands trying to pull the blade from her. And

632
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,840
that's actually how I ended up cutting my fingers so bad.

633
00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:41,519
Speaker 4: This is when the lies started. Every person he saw

634
00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:44,320
got a different explanation for why he got this cut

635
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,159
on his finger, from his own son, to his ex

636
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,079
at the house with his son, to his girlfriend Alicia,

637
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,320
and finally to the police who interviewed him the night

638
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,880
of the burglaries. By that point, his finger was barely

639
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,840
hanging on After he tried. I had to superglue it gross,

640
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,480
but he knew it was bad because it was trending

641
00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:10,119
green and starting to smell funny, you know what I mean.

642
00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: I know shit happened.

643
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: It shouldn't have happened, And anyway, I just wanted to

644
00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:18,679
know that I didn't kill John.

645
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 4: The one part of the story that always stayed consistent

646
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,920
was that he didn't kill John. He freely admitted he

647
00:36:26,039 --> 00:36:29,480
killed Regina, just like he freely admitted several weeks later

648
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:34,199
that he robbed the salons, but he was adamant he

649
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,199
didn't kill John.

650
00:36:36,119 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 3: And none of this shit was planned or premeditated or anything.

651
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:42,400
But I ended up ripping a knife from Regina and

652
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,480
I threw up in a chair and she took off,

653
00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:47,199
and I went a night checked John and he was

654
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,920
still making sounds and on the floor, and she ends

655
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,559
up coming back with another knife, and I don't know,

656
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,880
regular stayed nice whatever from the kitchen, and that's when

657
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,400
she ended up. You know, staffn't have me cut my

658
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,760
finger real bad again. I'm tussling with her and I'll

659
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,639
get her to the group, to the ground and I'm

660
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:10,960
trying to hold her down, and you know, her other hands,

661
00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:15,039
she's clawing in my face and my eyes, and I've

662
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,480
ended up getting a knife and using honor, you know

663
00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:20,719
what I mean. And not only I'm having nightmares about it,

664
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,199
you know what I mean. It's so much to fucking

665
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,800
live with, you know. And I wish I would have

666
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,360
ran out of the house, you know what I mean,

667
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,159
because now I lived with it. She was a friend,

668
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,079
you know what I mean. And I mean I'd be

669
00:37:32,119 --> 00:37:34,360
stupid to even tell my pro officer, I'm about to

670
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:35,239
stay here at this house.

671
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,599
Speaker 4: Tom maintained he never met for any of this to happen.

672
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,800
He just wanted to get out of prison and start over,

673
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,320
be a good dad, continue his relationship with Alicia, except

674
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,159
she was still married, and get back to what he

675
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,679
loved to do. Tattoos, of course, but he also loved

676
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,599
drinking and talk it. Those two traits somehow led to

677
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,119
him committing crimes that involved the very people he loved most.

678
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,719
In the aftermath of those crimes, even his youngest son.

679
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: It was my phone. I was letting him borrow it

680
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,199
for the night that night. The next morning I woke up,

681
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:14,960
my phone was gone, my kids were gone, and my

682
00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:16,559
jeep was gone, and I didn't talk to him for

683
00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:17,320
a couple of days.

684
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 4: Tom Son thought he was helping his father, but every

685
00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:27,480
time tom took more. The next morning, Tommy's phone, his jeep,

686
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,119
and even his trust were god.

687
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,639
Speaker 2: When he did move there, he cut his finger open,

688
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,840
and he said it was from the hedgehog with my

689
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,840
mom and my ample said it was too clean of

690
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,639
a cut to be not a hedgehog, but like hedge clippers.

691
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,079
And my mom and my ample said it was too

692
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:46,599
clean of a CUTZ. I think it was from a

693
00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:47,920
knife for a glass or something.

694
00:38:48,199 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 11: What do you think.

695
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,599
Speaker 2: I'd like to believe him, but I don't know. I

696
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:53,519
haven't seen a cut like that before. It was cut

697
00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:56,440
pretty bad. Yeah, it was like hanging off and stuff.

698
00:38:56,559 --> 00:38:57,159
Speaker 11: Oh jeez.

699
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:57,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

700
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: He said he was going to try bluing it back together,

701
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,239
but when he was in the hospital, they just took

702
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:03,119
it off for him.

703
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,519
Speaker 4: Tommy Junior would later learn the truth, if he didn't

704
00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:11,559
already suspect it. The story was shady, so was his

705
00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:13,960
story about why he needed Tommy to buy him duct

706
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,960
tape and garbage bags for the finger. Poor Tommy. Since

707
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,280
his dad got out of prison, he was invading all

708
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,559
aspects of his life, and Tommy led him because he

709
00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:27,119
loved him.

710
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, since he's been out, my life's been so stressful,

711
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:31,679
Like I've been.

712
00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: Afraid at my house, an't you afraid?

713
00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: I don't know if like he got dropped off by

714
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,679
someone and he owes them money and they're gonna like

715
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,280
come inside or something. I don't know, Okay, I just

716
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,800
don't know. Like I thought I knew him a little bit,

717
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,039
but I guess I didn't.

718
00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:49,119
Speaker 4: Okay, Tommy had a right to be afraid. His dad

719
00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:53,599
was a criminal murderer. The only thing the police didn't

720
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:56,400
know was exactly why he murdered.

721
00:39:57,039 --> 00:39:59,519
Speaker 11: We think you know more to someone's telling us.

722
00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:02,199
Speaker 12: Sitting there conversation, things were brought up about what your

723
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,599
dad did. That we're pretty serious and if he told

724
00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:06,960
you what he did, then we need to know.

725
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:11,519
Speaker 1: Tom He did tell me he heard two people. Didn't say

726
00:40:11,559 --> 00:40:12,719
he killed anybody.

727
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,679
Speaker 11: He said he heard him, though, tell us what he

728
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:15,079
told you.

729
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: He said that he heard him, and he said he

730
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,159
cut his finger on the hedge clippers, and that he.

731
00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 1: Was trying to fight him back, and.

732
00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 9: I was it.

733
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 11: He told me that he took Regina.

734
00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 2: They got her a hotel, and then two black people

735
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,000
came and were beating them up, and that he was

736
00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:34,639
trying to defend themselves.

737
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 12: Say that again, when was this Did he give you

738
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,440
any time frame on when this happened.

739
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 2: He said it happened late at night, late at night,

740
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,079
and they were sitting He was in the He said

741
00:40:43,119 --> 00:40:45,920
he was in the basement cleaning, and that he heard

742
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,000
John Yellen and he went upstairs and he started like

743
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:50,400
trying to fight him with him, and then they left.

744
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,599
Speaker 11: And that's what a couple of black males, he.

745
00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: Said, two black men. He didn't he didn't use those words.

746
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:59,480
He used they.

747
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 12: Raised this turn for them, okay, And then he was

748
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,480
fighting with these blackmails and he.

749
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: Said, that's how he had a scratch on his head.

750
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:06,840
He said, that's how he got a scratch on his

751
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:07,960
head was from them.

752
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,119
Speaker 4: This was just one more version of Tom's lies. And

753
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:14,360
when he couldn't cover his tracks with his lies, he

754
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,800
simply told Tommy not to look. Like the time he

755
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,360
asked Tommy to pick him up at John Mann's house,

756
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,519
this time it was to get rid of the dogs inside.

757
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 2: He went back to the house, he went in and

758
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,880
grabbed the dogs. I didn't see the dogs, he told

759
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:30,679
me not to look, and we drove out there. He

760
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,400
hadn't pulled around the side of the street, and he

761
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,559
shussed them out. Yeah, he just told me they were

762
00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,079
John's dogs and that he didn't want him anymore. Knew

763
00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:39,280
that John was going to hurt out early, kill him

764
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,239
and get rid of them, so he was going to

765
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,440
give him a chance at life and just let him go.

766
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 4: The detectives didn't want to have to press Tommy. They

767
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,679
knew he was a good kid. In fact, one officer

768
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,079
had also been Tommy's rugby coach and had nothing but

769
00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:59,239
great things to say about him. Somebody did something right,

770
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,599
but it sure wasn't his dad.

771
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 12: And the last thing I want to see is anything.

772
00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:07,920
And this isn't trying to pit you against your dad,

773
00:42:08,119 --> 00:42:09,280
but you're in this position.

774
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 11: Sadly.

775
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,079
Speaker 12: He put you in this position, he did, and it's sad,

776
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:15,760
and we feel for you, you know, I do. You

777
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,920
know what I think of you, and it's wrong, but

778
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,039
I just want the truth one hundred percent, and you

779
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:24,280
walk out of here, and you know your conscious is clear.

780
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: If I tell you, guys now, tell us now, you're

781
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:29,760
not Eddie Trump.

782
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:33,199
Speaker 11: He said he killed him, kill Regina John.

783
00:42:33,119 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 2: Just Regina He said he was in the basement cleaning

784
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,199
and he heard John upstairs screaming, saw Regina stabbing him,

785
00:42:40,639 --> 00:42:43,920
tried giving the knife away from him, and then he

786
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:45,519
said he took the knife and stabbed her.

787
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 4: Tommy's story matched the version his father gave police that

788
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:55,239
Regina had attacked Jawn, that Tom wrestled the knife away

789
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,039
and stabbed her. There were no other people at the

790
00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:04,159
house that day, black white or otherwise. If they could

791
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,920
just get Tom to admit to killing both Regina and John,

792
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,880
it was their gut feeling, and the coroner's reports backed

793
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,559
it up. John Man's body was pierced with multiple sharp

794
00:43:15,599 --> 00:43:20,639
force injuries, including to the neck, ribs, collarbone, and defensive

795
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:25,159
wounds on his hands and arms. Regina stood under five

796
00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:29,119
feet tall and didn't weigh much. Besides. Tom's version was

797
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:33,599
that he intervened after only one or two stabbings. Then

798
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:36,880
there was the elaborate cover up, including commissioning a guy

799
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,119
named de Lugo to burn the house down after he'd

800
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:45,320
remove the dogs and the carpeting. He used Alicia for

801
00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:50,280
contact because he was already in jail. Delugo said no,

802
00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:54,039
he wouldn't do it, and the defensive wounds on Tom

803
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:57,719
indicated a serious altercation where Tom lost control of the blade,

804
00:43:58,519 --> 00:44:03,960
not to mention the lie. The overwhelming number of lies,

805
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:09,519
so detectives had one more card to play with Tom,

806
00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:13,559
the polygraph, and when the subject turned to John Mann,

807
00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:51,039
Tom's story started to crack. It was May of twenty

808
00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:55,559
seventeen in a suburb of good old Cleveland, Ohio, the

809
00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:58,840
home of the Browns and a whole lot of killers

810
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:04,360
and even wor Ohioans. Tomis Enough had been out of

811
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,239
prison for just a few weeks. He was drifting between motels,

812
00:45:08,519 --> 00:45:12,719
borrowing from his sons and leaning on his girlfriend, Alicia Stoner,

813
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,320
who drove him, gave him money, and even picked him

814
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,559
up the morning after he killed at least one person

815
00:45:18,639 --> 00:45:22,760
inside the house on nell Wood Road. So yeah, you know,

816
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,920
Tom was just living his best life. John Mann lived

817
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,039
in that house with his partner, Regina Capobianco. By then,

818
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,199
Regina had long since given up her part of the

819
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,440
bargain for living there and was dating other men. She

820
00:45:38,519 --> 00:45:41,599
had also been writing to Tom while he was in prison.

821
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,000
In fact, it was Regina and John who picked him

822
00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:48,280
up on the day he was released. Regina may have

823
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,719
expected to carry on a relationship with Tom, but he

824
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,320
already had Alicia, and he also realized that Regina's drinking

825
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,480
and other bizarre behaviors could land him right back in

826
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:03,760
prison on parole violation. John was fed up with her too,

827
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,559
he wanted her gone, and Tom was all too happy

828
00:46:07,559 --> 00:46:10,760
to help. If Regina were out of the picture, it

829
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,800
meant Tom couldn't move in and finally have a stable

830
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,000
place to reconnect with his son and have a girlfriend.

831
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,920
On the night of May eleventh, twenty seventeen, something violent

832
00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:24,760
happened inside that house. John and Regina were both killed,

833
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,400
their bodies hidden away. Police wouldn't discover their decomposed remains

834
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,719
until June. In the meantime, Tom was getting rid of

835
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,920
evidence and roping his loved ones into helping him cover

836
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:37,800
his tracks.

837
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,039
Speaker 3: You know, I've always tried to tell him, even though

838
00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:43,360
I've done fucked up shin or I've been in jail,

839
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:44,519
I always try to.

840
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:46,199
Speaker 1: You know, do the right thing.

841
00:46:46,199 --> 00:46:47,599
Speaker 3: A lot of things that you know I did with

842
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,239
past it was reckless, you know, out drunk and doing

843
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:52,840
stupid shit and just being wild.

844
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,079
Speaker 1: But you know, for the most part, you know he knows.

845
00:46:57,039 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 3: To do the right thing, you know, so that's I

846
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:01,519
just if I can only be that example to him,

847
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:02,679
you know what I mean, that's what I want to

848
00:47:02,679 --> 00:47:03,280
do for him.

849
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 4: What he wanted to do for his son and what

850
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,760
he actually ended up doing were two vastly different things.

851
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,119
By May seventeenth, his life was spiraling. He was walking

852
00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:17,719
around with a finger that was barely hanging on, and

853
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,760
his freedom was also barely hanging on. In the weeks

854
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,320
that followed, Tom didn't lie low. He went right back

855
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,239
to his old ways. He broke into two salons, leaving

856
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,320
a trail that would put him back on police radar.

857
00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:35,639
At the same time, he told everyone a different story.

858
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,000
He told his son, he told Alicia, He told the

859
00:47:39,039 --> 00:47:43,480
police a story about a drug dealer, a fight, Regina

860
00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:47,920
stabbing John, and Tom stabbing Regina in self defense. But

861
00:47:48,079 --> 00:47:52,559
there was one part he never changed. He swore he

862
00:47:52,599 --> 00:47:56,920
didn't kill John Man. You know how you've heard that

863
00:47:57,039 --> 00:48:03,199
polygraphs are unreliable. Well, police departments across the country insists

864
00:48:03,199 --> 00:48:05,960
they yield a success rate of eighty six to one

865
00:48:06,039 --> 00:48:10,599
hundred percent, and Brunswick police were counting on its reliability

866
00:48:11,119 --> 00:48:11,599
and listening.

867
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 10: I don't want your son to be around this, but

868
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,440
right now, he is smack in the middle of it.

869
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: You know, listen, I know, but that's why as much as.

870
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,079
Speaker 10: You know, if he's telling us, you can fight it

871
00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:25,159
in him, then you know you killed two people, and

872
00:48:25,199 --> 00:48:27,719
then you know you're confiding in him.

873
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:30,119
Speaker 11: As both both the people we found in the house.

874
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 1: Okay, I told him the black people.

875
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:35,280
Speaker 3: And then when I ended up telling him the truth

876
00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:38,639
after the truck incident, I told him what it was,

877
00:48:38,679 --> 00:48:40,840
and I told him I was just embarrassed because I

878
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,639
had killed the girl, and.

879
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 1: That's when I told him the truth of the matter.

880
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 10: No, I want to bring this thing back up from

881
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,760
this machineer. Okay, it says you me and your failed.

882
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,719
They say you'd stick John. All right, So I want

883
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,360
to talk about some similarities and some stuff in the

884
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:56,440
injuries of both.

885
00:48:58,159 --> 00:48:59,039
Speaker 11: I want to talk about that.

886
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 18: This is gonna be exactly what I was told, all right, Okay,

887
00:49:06,679 --> 00:49:10,599
Regina stab wound in the back, two stab wounds to

888
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:14,320
the right side of the neck, crushed Adam's apple. Right

889
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:20,599
corotid artery was cut her left hand near her index figure.

890
00:49:20,639 --> 00:49:22,239
The webbing was cut.

891
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 11: Cause him down.

892
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 18: The defensive booms caused this sharp force injury and a

893
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,159
crushed damn sample, neck compression, strangulation.

894
00:49:32,159 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 4: All of these injuries included or were in addition to

895
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,239
the stabbings, and the polygraph had confirmation.

896
00:49:40,079 --> 00:49:41,679
Speaker 11: Didn't you mentioned that?

897
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: Uh?

898
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 10: You know you several times that John was over there

899
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,360
making gurglings as they did, and stuff like that. Okay,

900
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:52,480
this machine says that you had had stabbed John. Yeah, okay, something.

901
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:58,960
John had one stable right here? Did you help him

902
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,719
stop every by doing it?

903
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 11: Is it the one?

904
00:50:01,519 --> 00:50:03,559
Speaker 10: Did you do one stay up woman of John to

905
00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:05,000
help him out, to put him out of measurement?

906
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 11: If you did that, you couldn't understand.

907
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 1: If I did.

908
00:50:08,159 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 4: Detectives kept giving Tom an out. They told him maybe

909
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,599
it was an accident, an act of mercy, self defense,

910
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,400
and maybe things got out of control. Any of those

911
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,639
versions could have given him a softer landing, even a

912
00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:26,400
shot at claiming self defense. But Tom wouldn't take it.

913
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,320
He stuck to his one line over and over. I

914
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:32,960
didn't kill John.

915
00:50:33,519 --> 00:50:34,199
Speaker 11: You've got to.

916
00:50:34,119 --> 00:50:37,039
Speaker 10: Help yourself out in this. You gotta tell us what

917
00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:38,519
the hell happened in that house?

918
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 12: You know.

919
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 10: He brings up a good point. I'm gonna let you

920
00:50:41,519 --> 00:50:44,079
explain him to about it. Where he thinks something happened

921
00:50:44,119 --> 00:50:46,199
in the argument. I'm gonna let him go ahead with that.

922
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,280
You know, it brings up a good point as we talked,

923
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:54,360
You don't, Mike, wouldn't be getting beat up with you.

924
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 18: Tell me a little bit about your your stepfather right

925
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:03,000
right and your mom abusive relationship, Yeah, something about.

926
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 11: Hap him quite frequently.

927
00:51:06,039 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 1: Well, when we were younger.

928
00:51:07,599 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 11: You know, what's your feelings on that.

929
00:51:09,519 --> 00:51:12,119
Speaker 3: I just loved my mom and I hated him at

930
00:51:12,119 --> 00:51:14,039
the time. You know, even though there was times where

931
00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:17,519
he was a good guy and I liked him, you know,

932
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,840
for certain things, he would drink and used drugs, and

933
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,360
you know, he took all his aggression on her, and

934
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:30,960
you know, she's just such always a good person and.

935
00:51:29,639 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 1: Being a kid.

936
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 3: You know, that really hurt you know, I want to

937
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,000
see her go back to him.

938
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,559
Speaker 13: You know, how did that make you feel? It hurt me,

939
00:51:38,119 --> 00:51:40,639
you know, make you angry? Well, sure, I mean it

940
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,840
wouldn't be angry. You know I was angry that. You

941
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:44,920
know she put up with it, but I mean obviously

942
00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:45,760
she felt it.

943
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,559
Speaker 3: You know, she loved him and worked through it, you know,

944
00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:53,719
and they'd separated for like a year and we got

945
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:54,719
back together.

946
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 18: And what do you think should happen to somebody that

947
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,599
beats their their wife or their girlfriend?

948
00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 10: George, no woman to jump one with you.

949
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:05,079
Speaker 11: What do you think should happened to somebody?

950
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:08,119
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't feel like they should hie, you know,

951
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,960
I mean I could understand why some women do that,

952
00:52:11,639 --> 00:52:13,440
you know, because they feel like there's.

953
00:52:13,199 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: No other way out.

954
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 11: They feel tripped.

955
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I feel like, you know, women even

956
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,599
deserve that to when a man does that.

957
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, that they should be able to.

958
00:52:25,639 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 11: So, so what was John doing in Virginia? What was John?

959
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:30,599
Speaker 1: He wanted her out?

960
00:52:30,679 --> 00:52:31,519
Speaker 11: What really happened?

961
00:52:31,559 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 1: He wanted her out? He wanted her out?

962
00:52:34,599 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 11: Was her? I don't know her.

963
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 1: I don't know.

964
00:52:38,519 --> 00:52:39,159
Speaker 11: Did you see him?

965
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: I never seen him, Herbert.

966
00:52:41,159 --> 00:52:43,199
Speaker 11: Did she tell you here's her?

967
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:44,039
Speaker 2: No?

968
00:52:44,519 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 3: She told me many stories about punching on her boyfriends.

969
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,159
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. She never said John heard her.

970
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,639
You know, she said he was dirty and never changed

971
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:55,239
its clothes.

972
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 11: And I think you know that he. I think she

973
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,159
could fighting and.

974
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:02,639
Speaker 19: You were trying to protect her, and then she get

975
00:53:02,639 --> 00:53:04,599
angry with you for what was.

976
00:53:04,599 --> 00:53:10,679
Speaker 11: Going on with your Joss. Is that what happened? Listen? Man,

977
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:11,960
I get it.

978
00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 4: This was their best hypothesis. It was the only time

979
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,840
they'd seen Tom get this emotional, other than when he

980
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,360
was talking about his son. They had tapped into his

981
00:53:23,559 --> 00:53:28,119
past to find a trigger. John was abusing Regina and

982
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,360
Tom was going to stop him. But Regina was used

983
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,840
to the chaos and abuse, so she tried to stop Tom.

984
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,559
Speaker 10: You do realize come Monday morning during this ring to me,

985
00:53:39,639 --> 00:53:41,639
he's gonna be there. They're gonna paint you his monster,

986
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,519
don't you Yeah? Do you want them to paint.

987
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:46,519
Speaker 1: Do you want you're gonna have any money?

988
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,519
Speaker 11: The difference is if we if we can tell our story.

989
00:53:49,519 --> 00:53:50,559
We're gonna have news conference.

990
00:53:50,639 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 10: We're gonna give a press conference Monday morning before you're raingment.

991
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,880
We're telling everybody you're here, you're being arranged. The news

992
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,960
is gonna be there. How's it gonna be? You know

993
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:01,280
what I mean?

994
00:54:01,599 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 11: Did you sit in this chair with us?

995
00:54:03,039 --> 00:54:04,599
Speaker 10: Did you talk to the detectives, and did you tell

996
00:54:04,639 --> 00:54:08,920
us everything that happened one hundred percent to the team.

997
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:11,679
Speaker 11: Which right now I don't believe. Okay, And your son

998
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,360
is going to watch this news conference. Sure, you know

999
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,639
what I mean? Your son is gonna watch this news conference.

1000
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 10: Pretty soon he may be watching it with you somewhere

1001
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,920
else because of the trouble he's in and Alicia as well.

1002
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,000
They're both in trouble right now with this. Too much

1003
00:54:27,119 --> 00:54:29,440
is going on because you put them in this position.

1004
00:54:30,079 --> 00:54:32,920
The only way for you to help them and not

1005
00:54:33,119 --> 00:54:35,960
paint yourself as a monster. I mean, come on, I

1006
00:54:36,119 --> 00:54:38,800
know that you love your kid, and your kid does

1007
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,840
love you, Okay, he does, but he's going to have

1008
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,360
to live with this cloud of the immediate pain in

1009
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:46,280
my father as a monster, and people know that you're

1010
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:46,719
his father.

1011
00:54:47,079 --> 00:54:49,599
Speaker 11: Would you rather just have them him be known as

1012
00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:52,280
my dad made a mistake. He fessed up to it.

1013
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,360
He did, He did jak who he is. I still

1014
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,840
talk to my dad in jail. Do you want Dad

1015
00:54:57,159 --> 00:55:00,159
or do you want everybody going on look at as

1016
00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:00,559
a monster?

1017
00:55:01,119 --> 00:55:05,199
Speaker 4: If Tom had accepted their version of what happened, would

1018
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,039
he have gotten away with it? I mean, there was

1019
00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:11,119
no way he wasn't going back to prison. He robbed

1020
00:55:11,159 --> 00:55:15,719
two salons and killed a woman. These were indisputable facts.

1021
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:21,639
But was it chivalry gone way wrong? Or was it

1022
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,280
a premeditated attempt to secure a place of his own.

1023
00:55:26,199 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 11: It's possible.

1024
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,519
Speaker 4: No one will ever know, but the jury would seal

1025
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,480
his fate. No matter what. Tom would probably spend the

1026
00:55:33,559 --> 00:55:36,960
rest of his life in jail. But Ohio also has

1027
00:55:37,119 --> 00:55:40,000
the death penalty, which is a good thing, but they

1028
00:55:40,039 --> 00:55:43,719
should use it a lot more. The relationship Tom wanted

1029
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,360
with his son was never going to happen, at least

1030
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:52,480
not outside of prison walls. Thomas Enough Junior was convicted

1031
00:55:52,519 --> 00:55:56,320
of two counts of aggravated murder for killing John Mann

1032
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:02,239
and Regina Capo Bianco, along with multiple other charges aggravated burglary,

1033
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:07,079
gross abuse of a corpse, kidnapping, conspiracy, tampering with evidence,

1034
00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:09,480
and theft related offenses.

1035
00:56:10,199 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 20: There was, of course, a jury recommendation that the sentence

1036
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,599
of death be imposed. The court finds by proof beyond

1037
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:21,679
a reasonable doubt that the aggravating circumstances the offender was

1038
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:26,920
found guilty of committing outweigh the mitigating factors. Therefore, on

1039
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:30,639
count two, the sentence of death will be imposed upon

1040
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:31,239
the offender.

1041
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 4: This met Tom's son lost to father.

1042
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,079
Speaker 3: Well, and that's what I hope just by being you know,

1043
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,079
straight up with you guys, it the things that you

1044
00:56:40,159 --> 00:56:42,599
can control to help with, you know, I appreciate.

1045
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,199
Speaker 1: So I'm not here to fuck nobody around or be

1046
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:45,880
a bad guy.

1047
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 11: And no, no, nobody's nobody's things said at all. You

1048
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:51,760
know what I mean.

1049
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 3: I'm saying, it's enough to have to live with my

1050
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:56,400
faults and all the mistakes I've had in the past

1051
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,719
and letting my family down, and you know, not being

1052
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,239
there through my son's high school years when you know

1053
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,320
other people had her dad's there at the football game.

1054
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,599
Speaker 4: And because of Tom's actions, he would never get the

1055
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,639
chance to go to one of his kid's games and

1056
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,000
walk him out onto the field. But his son wasn't

1057
00:57:15,039 --> 00:57:19,719
the only one who suffered. Two lives were lost. Regina

1058
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,679
may have been a bit of a wild card, but

1059
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,719
she mattered to her family, to her friends. She was

1060
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,360
a person and no matter what her life choices, she

1061
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,599
didn't deserve what happened to her.

1062
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 19: This monster took my sister from me.

1063
00:57:38,519 --> 00:57:40,119
Speaker 11: My heart is broken.

1064
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:44,599
Speaker 1: I don't know if I will ever reap here.

1065
00:57:48,079 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 17: I miss her every day. She would not get to

1066
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,320
see her sons get married, she would not get to

1067
00:57:54,639 --> 00:57:55,719
call her Grandma.

1068
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:57,719
Speaker 2: And his.

1069
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 17: Oh because of trying to help somebody that I told

1070
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:06,039
her that I thought.

1071
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:07,199
Speaker 1: She should stay away from.

1072
00:58:09,159 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: I have.

1073
00:58:11,679 --> 00:58:14,119
Speaker 11: Horrible visions, and I hope someday will get out of

1074
00:58:14,239 --> 00:58:16,559
my head of the murder.

1075
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,119
Speaker 17: And no one should ever have to have these visions

1076
00:58:22,119 --> 00:58:26,559
of a family member. I am glad he has the

1077
00:58:26,679 --> 00:58:33,159
death penalty. I think he deserves the death penalty. He's

1078
00:58:33,239 --> 00:58:36,760
had a chance to plead for his life, and I'm

1079
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,320
sure my sister pleaded for her life that.

1080
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:41,639
Speaker 1: He chose to ignore.

1081
00:58:42,679 --> 00:58:46,559
Speaker 4: John Man's son and sister both gave incredible heartfelt statements,

1082
00:58:46,639 --> 00:58:49,760
and John's son spoke for more than ten minutes.

1083
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 19: My dad was a goofy, bright and sensitive man. He

1084
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,440
loved the Cleveland Browns, watching Mash re runs, and doing

1085
00:58:58,519 --> 00:59:02,000
community theater. He had a full scholarship offer from Heidelberg

1086
00:59:02,159 --> 00:59:06,159
University in astrophysics. He ended up floating into electrical contracting

1087
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,800
from his interest in solar power. He loved the idea

1088
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,880
of cheap, renewable energy. He even studied to be an

1089
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,760
architect because he thought it would help him develop solar powerselves.

1090
00:59:16,599 --> 00:59:20,079
Later life, he became a computer programmer. He truly had

1091
00:59:20,079 --> 00:59:22,400
a gifted mind and could do just about whatever he

1092
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,559
wanted to with properly motivated people tended to like my

1093
00:59:26,679 --> 00:59:30,840
dad he had a gregarious and colorful personality with an

1094
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:31,880
oddball sense of humor.

1095
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 11: You took my dad from me.

1096
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:37,679
Speaker 19: You robbed him of the golden years of his life

1097
00:59:38,159 --> 00:59:41,280
and the time we had together. I miss him terribly.

1098
00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:45,239
Speaker 4: He proceeded to lay out how Tom had failed as

1099
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:48,480
a man, as a human being, and as a father.

1100
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,039
He sympathized with Tom's son and thanked him for his

1101
00:59:52,199 --> 00:59:56,159
bravery and enduring the trial and doing the right thing

1102
00:59:56,280 --> 01:00:00,280
by testifying against his own father, whom he loved. But

1103
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,559
then he's surprised everyone.

1104
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,159
Speaker 19: You do not deserve to live. You do not deserve

1105
01:00:06,199 --> 01:00:09,280
a humane death. You butcher two people for reasons I

1106
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,760
cannot begin to comprehend. I have wanted you to die,

1107
01:00:13,599 --> 01:00:16,480
yet I am faced with the reality that it will

1108
01:00:16,599 --> 01:00:19,679
not and cannot be enough. In order to heal, I

1109
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,079
must accept this and find a way to reconcile it.

1110
01:00:22,119 --> 01:00:25,639
Against my own a feelings. I will continue to beg

1111
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,519
for his life to be spared. However, if possible, I

1112
01:00:29,639 --> 01:00:31,159
want you all to hear it from a man that

1113
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:36,440
wanted him dead, as a son to a man whose

1114
01:00:36,519 --> 01:00:41,079
life was ended his father. I will beg to anyone

1115
01:00:41,079 --> 01:00:44,320
who will listen to spare his life. I don't think

1116
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,679
we should do it for me or him. I think

1117
01:00:46,719 --> 01:00:48,320
we should do it because it's the right thing to

1118
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:49,559
do for our society.

1119
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:54,079
Speaker 4: Of course, Tom is appealing, and the legal fight will

1120
01:00:54,119 --> 01:00:58,559
go on for years. But what lingers isn't just the

1121
01:00:58,639 --> 01:01:03,280
courtroom drama and a peals. That's the contradiction. Tom wanted

1122
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:05,840
to be a good father. He wanted to prove he

1123
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,199
could do right by his son. He stayed in touch,

1124
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:12,760
leaned on him, even dreamed of settling down in a

1125
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,960
house where they could reconnect. But instead he fell back

1126
01:01:17,079 --> 01:01:22,239
into every pattern he swore he'd left behind, the lies,

1127
01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:27,159
the violence, the selfishness that burned through everything in his path.

1128
01:01:28,199 --> 01:01:31,119
And maybe the hardest part to make sense of is

1129
01:01:31,199 --> 01:01:34,039
the question of whether Tom could have been telling the

1130
01:01:34,119 --> 01:01:39,159
truth about John Mann. Maybe John was abusing Regina like

1131
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,679
the detectives had suggested, and it triggered a traumatic reaction

1132
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:49,239
from Tom. Or maybe what happened is exactly as Tom described.

1133
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,199
John tried to do evict Regina, and she went at him,

1134
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:57,639
so Tom intervened. Even if parts of his story are

1135
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:03,360
true and noble, all following actions say the most Tom's

1136
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:08,280
choices after that night, spoke the loudest, He hid the bodies,

1137
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,119
tried to hire someone to burn the place down, dumped

1138
01:02:12,159 --> 01:02:16,079
the dogs into someone else's neighborhood, manipulated and lied to

1139
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:21,159
those he loved, dragged them into something horrible, and most importantly,

1140
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,639
never called police. Whatever happened in that house might have

1141
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:30,679
started with good intentions, but what followed were really, really,

1142
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,760
really bad choices, and only a complete fucking idiot would

1143
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,079
make Then again, this is Ohio. At the end of

1144
01:02:40,119 --> 01:02:43,800
the day, we all have to be accountable for our choices.

1145
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:48,400
We all have to be responsible for what we decide

1146
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:52,880
to do. Otherwise, what the fuck are we doing here today?

1147
01:02:53,159 --> 01:02:57,840
Thomas Nuff's son is brown. He's built a life that

1148
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,199
has nothing to do with Parma Height or with the

1149
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:06,239
crimes his father committed there. He's well adjusted, stable, and

1150
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,000
in twenty twenty three he got married. Whatever cycle Tom

1151
01:03:10,159 --> 01:03:14,280
was trapped in, his son has escaped it good for him,

1152
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:19,920
And maybe that's the real ending here, Not the death sentence,

1153
01:03:20,159 --> 01:03:24,679
not the deaths, not the appeals, but the fact that

1154
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:29,320
even out of something so violent and tragic, like a

1155
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,920
phoenix rising from the ashes, a different kind of life

1156
01:03:35,480 --> 01:04:24,679
is actually possible. That's gonna do it for another one.

1157
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:26,679
Thanks for joining us. If you like the show, head

1158
01:04:26,719 --> 01:04:29,239
on over to sword and Scale dot com, get the app,

1159
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:31,320
get Plus. We'll see you next week.

1160
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 11: Stay safe,