WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.960 Do you know what real power is? It's knowing you're 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:05.719 on the same rate for energy all day, every day 3 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:08.640 with a smart all day plan from board Gosh Energy, 4 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:11.039 save up to eight hundred and eighty euro on dual 5 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:13.519 fuel plus get a two hundred and thirty five You're 6 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:17.480 a welcome bonus. Switched today at Boardgosh Energy dot ie 7 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:20.519 board Gosh Energy. Know your Power. 8 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:22.600 Estimation Saniel Bill at twenty six hundred and twenty nine 9 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:25.039 Your new customers only thirsh of centis Kentov Smart all 10 00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:27.920 day electricity unierates in twenty nine percent of gas. See 11 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.520 porcosh Energy dot E for fulltiesncies hem oh hey, it's 12 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:35.479 it's the pair of sunglasses that you leave in the 13 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:38.119 car that's scratched. It's not your favorite, but it's better 14 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:40.960 than nothing. In a pinch, Ali ward back with a 15 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:45.159 piping hot episode of ologies. It's top of mind for 16 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:47.439 a lot of us out here up here in the 17 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:52.159 Northern Hemisphere, especially toward the west of the continent. Wildfires, 18 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:58.799 fire ecology, blazing infernos, apocalyptic nightmares. This ologist so special 19 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:02.240 got his bachelor's in zoology, a master's in wildlife ecology, 20 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:05.560 and a PhD. In Wildlife ecology statistics, all from the 21 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:09.680 University of Wisconsin and Madison. He is currently a Wildlife 22 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:14.599 and Terrestrial Ecosystems research ecologist. Such a mouthful. He's a 23 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:18.519 research scientist at the US Department of Agriculture's Forest Service, 24 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:21.319 also an adjunct professor at the University of New Mexico. 25 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:26.280 He has been published on papers about fire refuges for wildlife, 26 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:31.280 where they hide out, megafires, habitat loss. He's also just 27 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:35.439 casually the editor at the Association of Fire Ecology, so 28 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:37.480 I have been following him online for a while. I 29 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:42.560 reached out to casually ask him about pyrology versus fire ecology, 30 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.000 and before I knew it, I was begging him to 31 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.040 talk to me. So we hopped onto chat while fires 32 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.000 were raging in the West this week and I was 33 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.799 in a muggy Florida hotel room for work and it 34 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:56.879 smelled like a turtle tank. But before we dive into 35 00:01:56.920 --> 00:01:59.159 the conversation, I want to thank everyone at patreon dot 36 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.359 com slashology. It costs a dollar a month to join 37 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:05.640 and then you can submit questions to theologists. Thank you 38 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.599 to everyone listening and making us the number one podcast 39 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.560 in the science category on Spotify, and thank you for 40 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:15.199 leaving reviews on Apple Podcasts to get us seen by 41 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:18.280 other people. I truly read them all because I desperately 42 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:20.039 want to make a show that does not suck, and 43 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:21.680 to prove it, I'm going to read you a still 44 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:26.879 glowing coal of assessment from Bert Lancaster, who wrote ologies 45 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.800 is your cynicism antidote? I simultaneously feel beautifully tiny and 46 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:34.039 so expansive that I could burst after listening. Sometimes I 47 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:35.759 just have to stand there and laugh to myself for 48 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.400 a while. Sometimes I cry. Emotions are weird. Love you dad, word, 49 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:43.719 Bert Lancaster, get a hanky because your internet dad right 50 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.319 here loves you right back. Okay, everyone who left to review, 51 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:49.080 I read it. I love you also, Okay, all right, 52 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:53.199 let's fire off some questions. Yeah, okay, open your ears 53 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:57.400 for info on what fire is, how hot it burns, 54 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:03.520 fire trends, tinderboxes, lots and lots of forest fire, flim flam, 55 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:10.240 tolerant wombats, Angelina Joe Lee, movies, Cunning pine Cones, thick Bark, Tragic, 56 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:15.919 Koala's Indigenous fire Stewardship, and more with researcher Scientists of 57 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:21.479 the Woods, Desert dweller, awl cuddler, forest service employee, optimist, 58 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:25.520 and fire ecologist Doctor Gavin Jones. 59 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:48.560 Yes, Gavin Jones, and my pronouns are he him. 60 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:53.120 Got it? And you are currently in New Mexico. 61 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.120 That's right in the great city of Albuquerque. 62 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:58.319 Do you guys have trees there? 63 00:03:58.919 --> 00:03:59.639 You know we do? 64 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:00.199 Yes? 65 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:03.360 Okay, it's pretty much desert out here, so when the 66 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:05.000 trees grow, they don't grow very tall. 67 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:11.120 And now tell me how a fire ecologist from Wisconsin 68 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:15.879 and Florida and now New Mexico. Yes, how did your 69 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.920 life path lead to fire ecology? 70 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:19.560 Oh? 71 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.680 My goodness, it was really an accident. I do consider 72 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:25.120 myself a fire ecologist, but I was really trained and 73 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:27.680 I did my graduate work and all my studies in 74 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:30.800 wildlife ecology. And when I was in grad school, I 75 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:34.240 was doing some research out in the Sierra Nevada in 76 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:39.279 California on the cutest cuddliest creature there is, the California 77 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:50.680 spot at owl. And yeah, like pretty much anybody who 78 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:56.879 spends enough time doing science out in fire prone lands 79 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:59.959 like the Sierra Nevada, you eventually become a fire ecologist 80 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.279 because of fire happens, and then you have to try 81 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:05.279 to figure out what to do with it. So that's 82 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:08.199 exactly what happened. I was doing my master's degree. I 83 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:12.759 was at the University of Wisconsin with my supervisor, Zach Peery, 84 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:15.399 and we were doing a study out in California on 85 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:17.879 spotted owls, trying to figure out what kind of forests 86 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.480 they used, how they would respond to climate change. And 87 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:25.879 just as I was finishing my master's degree, like just 88 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:28.720 a month or two before I had defended my degree, 89 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:32.920 a big fire burned through our study area. 90 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:31.839 Yeah. 91 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:35.759 Yeah, And at the time, to be honest with you, 92 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:39.319 I was I was pretty devastated. I was like, man, like, 93 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:42.000 what does this mean for the work that I've been doing? 94 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.120 Like does this even mean anything anymore? It, you know, 95 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:49.839 changed the game a little bit, but it provided an 96 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:54.680 incredible opportunity to learn about how these animals, this owl 97 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.720 that I was studying, responded to fire. It was basically 98 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.120 a natural experiment. This fire or burned through our study 99 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:03.600 area in twenty fourteen, and it burned through about half 100 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:08.279 of it. And so, you know, in ecology, when we're 101 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:11.920 doing these field studies, we rarely get the chance to 102 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:16.680 do experiments. Like almost everything we do is observational. We 103 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:18.480 go out and we see what we see, and we 104 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:20.040 record it and we try to make sense of it. 105 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:23.439 We rarely get to do experiments like you know other 106 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:25.120 folks get to do in the lab who are doing 107 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.079 chemistry or their molecular things. But this was really a 108 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:33.120 natural experiment to see how this species of owl responded 109 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:35.759 to fire. And that's what launched me into, i guess, 110 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:38.720 being a real sucker for fire and for learning about 111 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:41.959 how it works in some of these systems, why it happens, 112 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:46.040 how it happens, what its consequences are, and I'm totally hooked. 113 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:50.959 Now, Ah, how many of your owls were latered? How 114 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:54.360 many of the owls survived that? Like, what percentage of 115 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:57.560 the impacted area half of your study area? 116 00:06:57.639 --> 00:06:59.920 So some of them didn't make it, some of them dispersed, 117 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:02.000 some of them left the fire they were able to 118 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:04.639 get out of the way. And then there's large parts 119 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:08.000 of the fire that didn't burn so severely, that burned 120 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.560 at lower severity where basically a lot of the trees 121 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.800 that the big trees in the canopy they kind of 122 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.160 you know, they survived, and some of the understory burned 123 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:19.759 a little bit more of a what we call quote 124 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:22.959 unquote good fire in some of these areas, which I'd 125 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:24.879 love to talk more about, but you know, a lot 126 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.199 of those birds did great and are still persisting in 127 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:30.879 some of those areas that experienced lower severity fire, those 128 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:32.959 lower severity effects to the. 129 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:38.319 Forest, but predictably many bit the proverbial dust and returned 130 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:41.079 to the earth. As Ash Gavin told me that one 131 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.800 of his colleagues was servying the charred land and found 132 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:48.399 a little aluminum owl leg band that they used for tagging, 133 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:52.240 and it encased a little crispy owl leg. Did not 134 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:53.360 go well for that one. 135 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.800 And how did that wildfire start? 136 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:00.839 Well, So that particular wildfire that was a huge started fire, 137 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:02.879 and it's actually a kind of a sad story. Is 138 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.519 some guy, I'm trying to remember the details. You should 139 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:10.800 look this up ally, but some guy was I think 140 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:13.759 taking a video for his ex girlfriend or something and 141 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.439 like lit some house on fire and then that started 142 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.560 this gigantic it was like, at the time, one of 143 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:23.040 the largest fires that had burned in the state of California. 144 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.079 Okay, buckle up, here's a story. So this was twenty 145 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:30.879 fourteen's King Fire, and it started in Pollock Pines and 146 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:34.120 the Sierra Nevadas. And I already knew of this fire 147 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:38.559 because my parents lived in Pollock Pines in twenty fourteen, 148 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.120 and my sisters and I had to plead with them 149 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:46.679 to heed the emergency evacuation orders as pyrocumulus clouds billowed 150 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.519 over their hill. We're like, please get to safety. I'm 151 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:51.519 sweating a lot. Don't make me come up there. 152 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:53.159 I can't. The roads are closed. 153 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:56.080 So I booked my mom and dad a hotel in Reno, 154 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:59.639 out of harm's way. And the hotel turned out to 155 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:04.879 have a mirrored ceiling and a very thrifty but sensual vibe. 156 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:07.320 They tell me. I get the feeling that there were 157 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.120 also hourly rates available at this hotel. 158 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:10.919 I got them. 159 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:14.279 I didn't read the reviews. Okay, it was an emergency anyway. 160 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:19.200 The Kingfire that reduced homes to ashes and dashed people's 161 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:23.759 dreams at Flambayed Gavin's Owls. It was all started by 162 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:26.200 a guy named Wayne Huntsman, who was not a Huntsman 163 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:31.960 but an arsonist, a formerly incarcerated firefighter actually, who that 164 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:37.960 sweltering September day had set several fires to impress a paramore. 165 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:42.759 He took video for her standing between two small smoldering 166 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:50.279 blazes that were just starting to take off. I'm not 167 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.159 sure how their relationship turned out, but as proof that 168 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.919 we're living in a simulation the burn area, the burn 169 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:02.519 scar is absolutely shaped like a perfect ninety seven thousand 170 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.159 acre dick in balls, all ablaze in one of the 171 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:11.200 state's most infamous literal thirst traps. Okay, so how much 172 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.879 is our horny, greedy species to blame? 173 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:16.200 Oh man? 174 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:18.600 And that's another thing is a lot of the ignitions 175 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:23.840 are human ignitions, you know, people accidentally starting fires, machinery 176 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.600 getting too hot, people driving over dry grass, and things 177 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:28.000 like that. 178 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:31.120 So Gavin says that eighty to ninety percent of all 179 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:37.200 wildfires are human caused ignitions. Half of California's largest fires 180 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.399 in the last century happened in the past five years. 181 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.840 By the way, a complex fire means a cluster of 182 00:10:44.200 --> 00:10:47.360 related fires in one area. But what's the difference between 183 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:49.799 a wildfire and a forest fire? 184 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:54.799 We talk about wildfires. Typically when we're talking about wildfires, 185 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:57.759 those are unplanned, so fires that we as people don't 186 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:00.399 don't plan. So you can kind of juck to pose 187 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:04.000 that with a prescribed fire or a cultural fire. So 188 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.960 prescribed fire is often fire that is purposely set and 189 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:13.120 then managed by teams to achieve some type of objective. 190 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:16.919 Maybe they're trying to restore some area, restore fire. You know, 191 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:19.200 you probably hear a lot about you know, people burning 192 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:21.960 prairies and things like that. It's the same thing in forests, 193 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.120 they go in and do prescribed burns. And then there's 194 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:28.879 also a really important component of cultural burning, So indigenous 195 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.919 communities using wildfire for their purposes, which until you know, 196 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.799 about one hundred two hundred years ago, made up the 197 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:42.399 overwhelming majority of the fire activity that was happening in 198 00:11:42.440 --> 00:11:44.399 a lot of these areas. For you know, the last 199 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:48.120 ten thousand years or so, indigenous peoples have been using 200 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:53.879 fire in a really important cultural way, and that has 201 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.720 really changed in the past couple of centuries with colonization, 202 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:01.240 but that is an increasingly important part of the solution 203 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.519 to sort of this modern wildfire problem. 204 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:08.919 And obviously indigenous cultures and just the planet at large 205 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:14.000 saw the benefit of prescribed burns. So what good do 206 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:18.320 fires do, either in prescribed burns or just in nature. 207 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.120 Yeah, that's such a good question. I mean, fires are 208 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:27.799 a critical piece of ecosystems around the world. Every square 209 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:30.759 inch of land that has vegetation has some type of 210 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:34.639 fire regime, It has some sort of natural fire cycle, 211 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.399 and fire is kind of a restorative process. There's many 212 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:41.039 benefits of fire from we can think about it from 213 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.000 a human perspective, we can think about it from a 214 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.559 sort of an ecosystem perspective, you know, from the human perspective. 215 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:51.240 You know, fires create more resilient forests when they burn 216 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:53.720 the right way. When we have sort of a natural 217 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.919 kind of lower intensity fire in some systems, like in 218 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:58.919 the Sierra Nevada, where I've spent a lot of my time, 219 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:03.919 that reinforces is healthy water supplies, It reduces erosion. 220 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:09.360 Side note, A fire regime sounds like Satan's cabinet members 221 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.120 farting flames in a hades boardroom, but it's actually just 222 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.679 a gentle term. A fire regime describes a pattern of fire, 223 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.759 how frequent, how intense, what kind of fuel of gobbles 224 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.080 And maybe me just calling it Satan's cabinet members farting 225 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.600 in hades. Maybe that's part of the root of europeans 226 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:32.679 fear of fire, and thus this historical fire suppression by colonists. 227 00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:34.919 I wondered this, and I begged myself not to google 228 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.039 it because this aside would be like forty five minutes long. 229 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:39.519 But snap, I found a twenty fifteen paper from the 230 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:44.480 journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, be title Fire 231 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:49.240 in the Mind, Changing Understandings of Fire in Western Civilization. 232 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:53.879 What in which author Stephen J. Pirn writes you ready 233 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:56.200 for this quote? The Old Testament is in fact a 234 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:59.840 cauldron of stories, rights, and beliefs simmering over a mix 235 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.200 of religious fires. He goes on to say the heartland 236 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.679 of European forestry new fire only as a human artifact, 237 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:12.440 not a natural process. Most new and colonized lands were 238 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:17.080 burned lands naturally, but the agencies found themselves in a 239 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:21.080 continuous firefight, so fire became a political as well as 240 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:27.519 practical challenge. He continues, the upshot has generally been disastrous. Okay, 241 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:31.679 So what does the land miss out on when natural 242 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:37.279 fire is suppressed and indigenous populations are fined, imprisoned, or even, 243 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:40.120 up until the nineteen thirties in the US shot for 244 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:45.279 fire stewardship. Well, from an ecology standpoint, those fires can 245 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:49.320 help the water supply by eliminating excess vegetation and thus 246 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:54.639 increasing runoff into streams, and by preventing huge fires with 247 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:58.840 more frequent smaller ones. Also, erosion doesn't get out of 248 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:01.759 control when there were a regu fires like you see 249 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:06.240 with post megafire mud slides. Also, the charcoal after a 250 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:10.840 burn could trap carbon for millennia, and the recovery of 251 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.519 vegetation takes more excess carbon from the atmosphere. According to 252 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.759 the twenty nineteen paper how wildfires trap carbon for centuries 253 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:23.679 to millennia. Okay, but wildfires burn at eight hundred degrees celsius. 254 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:29.559 That's fourteen seventy two fahrenheit America. So the animals hate 255 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:33.559 natural and cultural burns too, right, No animal wants to 256 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.200 be trapped in a blaze. But I'm just going to 257 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.720 stop myself from singing about the circle of life in 258 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:39.240 your ears. 259 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.600 And then from an ecosystem perspective, and from what I 260 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:45.639 like to think about a lot is the biodiversity perspective. 261 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.840 So you know what kinds of animals there are, and 262 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:53.519 the richness of animal life and plant life. Fires create 263 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:59.279 this template for wildlife and plants to thrive. And also 264 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:04.519 this that creates this natural dynamic where you have places 265 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:06.799 that burn in one year and then don't burn for 266 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.320 a while, and places that burn frequently, in places that 267 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.759 burn at high severity and low severity. You can kind 268 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.519 of think about it as this patchwork, this mosaic of 269 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.639 different ages of forests that burned at different times, and 270 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:24.919 that creates a really diverse landscape that generates the habitat 271 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.320 for lots of critters. It can be a really regenerative 272 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:32.159 and restorative process to the land, both from a ecosystem 273 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.279 perspective and also really fire is a necessary part of 274 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:38.159 these systems, and so when we can put the right 275 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:40.879 kind of fire on the landscape, it really benefits us 276 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:42.960 to as people as society. 277 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:47.559 So fire mosaic paints a beautiful picture of land in 278 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:51.799 different states of recovery. And if you're looking to learn 279 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:55.440 more about it, don't google fire mosaic unless you want 280 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.240 to see a lot of tiling crafts that seem to 281 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.039 be an homage to burning man. But look up the 282 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:06.000 official term. It's patch mosaic burning. So let's talk different 283 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.640 flavors of fire, because it does matter. 284 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:13.240 So you can think this is a really overly simplistic 285 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.519 way to think about fire, because fire is a really 286 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:22.079 complicated process. But the way that we often sort of 287 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.559 describe it and think about it within fire ecology world 288 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:32.559 is we think about natural low severity fire regimes. You know, 289 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.599 in a given area, you might expect fires to sort 290 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:38.519 of burn a lower severity, not too hot, not too 291 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:41.880 all consuming. They burn along in the understory, nice and happy, 292 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.240 crawl along and burn some logs here, burn some trees there, 293 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:49.240 but generally don't destroy or consume the big trees in 294 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.599 the overstory of the canopy. So that first end of 295 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.960 the system, that's kind of frequent low severity fires. And 296 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:58.160 then on the other end of the whole spectrum you 297 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:03.359 can think about infrequent high severity fires or fire regimes rather, 298 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.599 So these are places in that area is for fires 299 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:09.920 when they do burn, to burn pretty big and pretty hot. 300 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:13.680 And those are both natural, but they're natural in those 301 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:16.519 different places. And so why why is it that you 302 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:21.519 have some places that naturally burn low severity and generally 303 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:24.759 I'm talking about forest fires here and then other places 304 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:27.480 of the forests that naturally burn it really high severity 305 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.279 and really large. We can think about those two ends 306 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.960 of the spectrum also in terms of what's limiting the system. 307 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:38.680 So in these low severity fire systems, those are generally 308 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:43.079 systems that are limited by fuel. And so what I 309 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.519 mean by that is the climate is such that on 310 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.920 any given year, the conditions are right for fire, Like 311 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:53.759 if there's a lightning strike or another ignition, fire is 312 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.759 going to burn and the fuel is dry, and the 313 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.720 only thing that's keeping that fire. One of the primary 314 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.160 things it's controlling that fire and where it burns is 315 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.960 where the fuel is, where the trees are, where the 316 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:10.079 kindling so to speak is. And because those fires those 317 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:13.480 places they ignite every year, there's ignitions all the time, 318 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.440 and the conditions are right for fire, they burn really frequently. 319 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:18.759 And so you can think about places where the fires 320 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:22.000 burn every couple of years, and when they do burn, 321 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.720 they kind of clean out or you know, burn in 322 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.960 that understory, so sort of below the forest canopy. It's 323 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.519 burning the smaller trees, it's burning some of the medium trees, 324 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:36.880 and it's burning some of the big trees. But mostly 325 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:38.960 it just every time a fire burns, it burns all 326 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:42.359 that fine fuel or a lot of it, right, And 327 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:48.319 so that's the primary sort of control on how fire burns. 328 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:52.119 In some of these dry fuel limited systems. 329 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:55.039 So in these areas, the way it's supposed to be 330 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.799 is that fires don't get mega because blazes are more frequent, 331 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:02.799 so burning all of the fallen wood and the understory, 332 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:05.799 so an excess of fuel doesn't build up. So that's 333 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:09.960 one way that these giant, devastating fires can be avoided. 334 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.400 And then on the other end of the spectrum, you 335 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:17.440 have these climate limited systems, so rather than the system 336 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:21.039 being limited by fuel, it's limited by climate. And so 337 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.880 this is a place like the Pacific Northwest, where it's 338 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:28.119 really wet, right, it's generally wet most of the time, 339 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:32.039 it's cool. There's maybe quite a few ignitions, but when 340 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:35.680 those ignitions occur, the fuel is not really ready to burn. 341 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.480 It's too wet, and maybe it burns a small fire 342 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:41.960 or something like that, but it just kind of extinguishes itself. 343 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:47.000 And you think about that system, those kind of areas, 344 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:51.359 and when you end up getting those really big, infrequent, 345 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.960 severe fires that occur there, it's because there's been a 346 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:59.640 some sort of climate activity, like a drought that's caused 347 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.200 all that fuel that hasn't burned in a really long 348 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:05.759 time to dry out, and then it burns, and when 349 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:07.480 it does burn it burns really big because there's tons 350 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.200 of fuel available, right, And so those are that's kind 351 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:11.920 of the two ends of the spectrum. And you know, 352 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:14.400 I was trying to think about this today. How do 353 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:18.839 I describe that that like spectrum in a way that's 354 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:24.799 not so dry and academic. And I was thinking about, like, Okay, 355 00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.720 like the haircut that I get is like a frequent 356 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:31.200 fire system. Okay. You know, I go to Great Clips 357 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:33.559 or Sport Clips or whatever just down the street from me, 358 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.640 and I get my haircut every few weeks, maybe every month. 359 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:39.559 It's it kind of maintains the general structure. It never 360 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.200 kind of goes super long, and I never buzz it 361 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.519 super short either. I just kind of keep it, you know, tamed, 362 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:49.759 so to speak. You know, I go in there frequently. 363 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.359 I clean out sort of the growth, right that's happened 364 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:56.839 in between each cut. And on the other end of 365 00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:58.920 the spectrum, you could have somebody and I did this 366 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:00.960 once when I was in college, which I think you're 367 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:04.039 right after college, you know, grow out your hair super 368 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:06.960 duper long, Like I didn't cut it for I don't 369 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.039 remember exactly how long it was, but let's say so 370 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:11.319 you grow your hair for a year, five years or something. 371 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:16.480 You know, get some pretty floppy, pretty pretty crazy hair, 372 00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:18.359 at least if you've got hair like me, and then 373 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.000 you say I'm gonna buzz it, and so then you 374 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.319 buzz it right off. That's kind of the I don't know, 375 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.000 you can kind of kind of think about that as 376 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.480 the two ends of the spectrum. Right, You've got like 377 00:22:26.519 --> 00:22:30.960 your frequent haircut system, and you've got your infrequent, high 378 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.799 severity haircut system, where you know, you just let it 379 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.279 grow and then you cut it all off. 380 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:39.240 Okay, So in this analogy, the regular maintenance cuts are 381 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.960 the low intensity fires, the ones that burn the undergrowth, 382 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:47.039 that don't spread too far, or that extinguish themselves because 383 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:50.480 there's enough moisture to keep things from being straight bone 384 00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:55.000 dry powder, keg kindling. But if those small fires don't happen, 385 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:59.440 or if the fire resistant older trees are logged out, 386 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:03.319 or if the climate is just super hot, then you 387 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.319 get a situation that's much more dramatic. I've had got 388 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.559 and is that like long main to buzz cut? 389 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:13.279 Is that what a mega fire is? 390 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:13.839 Then? 391 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:17.440 Yeah, So that term, I would say, that's a good 392 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:19.200 way to think about it. Yeah, from the long man 393 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:22.000 to the buzz cut. The term megafire is a really 394 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.039 interesting term, and it really doesn't have a great definition. 395 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.480 A lot of people when they talk about megafires, they're 396 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:33.720 thinking about these basically really big fires, just fires that 397 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:36.599 are giant in size. But you can have a really 398 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:43.319 really large fire that doesn't necessarily create that forest buzz cut, right. 399 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:46.799 It doesn't necessarily kill all the trees within its path. 400 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.440 It may kill some trees in some parts, but not 401 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:51.799