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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good evening. In this expanded twentieth anniversary edition of Murder
Speaker 5: of a Mafia Daughter, seasoned crime writer Kathy Scott provides
Speaker 5: in depth new details of serial killer Robert durst arrest, trial,
Speaker 5: and conviction for the brutal murder of Susan Berman. Kids
Speaker 5: never before seen photos of Susan. Also included is durst
Speaker 5: forty thousand dollars mask he planned to use to elude
Speaker 5: police while on the lamb. Susan Berman grew up in
Speaker 5: Las Vegas luxury as the daughter of Davy Berman, casino
Speaker 5: mogul and notorious mafia leader. After her father died, she
Speaker 5: learned about his mob connections. Susan then dedicated her life
Speaker 5: to learning about Vegas and its underworld chiefs. Her life
Speaker 5: took a bizarre turn in nineteen eighty two, when Kathy Durst,
Speaker 5: the wife of her good friend Robert Durst, mysteriously disappeared.
Speaker 5: Kathy's husband was a prime suspect, but the case was
Speaker 5: never solved. After the Kathy Durst case reopened, the media
Speaker 5: leaked that the phone call that appeared to be Kathy
Speaker 5: calling her medical school dean saying she was sick and
Speaker 5: wouldn't be at school. The call was placed the morning
Speaker 5: after she disappeared. Soon after the Kathy Durst case was reopened,
Speaker 5: Susan Berman was found dead, shot in the back of
Speaker 5: the head. No forced entry, no robbery, nothing missing from
Speaker 5: her home. This expanded and updated book covers what led
Speaker 5: to Durst's twenty fifteen capture. Police records placed Durst in
Speaker 5: California at the time of his good friend Susan Berman's murder.
Speaker 5: HBO filmmakers discovered an envelope unknown before, written by Durst
Speaker 5: to Susan. The handwriting and spelling of Beverly Hills was
Speaker 5: dead on match to the cadaver letter police say the
Speaker 5: killer mailed to police informing them of Susan's death before
Speaker 5: her body was discovered. This new release covers Durst's lengthy
Speaker 5: murder trial and the slang of his best friend. The
Speaker 5: book we're featuring this evening is Murder of a Mafia
Speaker 5: Daughter Expanded and Updated twentieth anniversary edition, Robert Durst and
Speaker 5: Susan Berman, the shocking inside story with my special guest
Speaker 5: journalist and investigative and Gaive journalist and author Kathy Scott.
Speaker 5: Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much
Speaker 5: for this interview. Kathy Scott.
Speaker 6: You're welcome, Dan, thank you, thank.
Speaker 5: You so much, and congratulations on this new, expanded and
Speaker 5: update twentieth anniversary edition.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 5: Let's start off with what we mentioned it a little
Speaker 5: bit in the introduction, but what is included in this
Speaker 5: new updated edition.
Speaker 6: Well, there are new interviews with her family and several
Speaker 6: members of her family. She had had a lot of
Speaker 6: cousins and with their thoughts on the trial and as
Speaker 6: well as Durst died, you know, while I was still
Speaker 6: finishing the update, and I was able to include that
Speaker 6: as a final you know, as the end to the book,
Speaker 6: and there's real finality to it. But I also watched
Speaker 6: the entire trial and added some of the testimony as
Speaker 6: it was live, you know, going on. And the beauty
Speaker 6: of it is Robert Durst. You know, he thought he
Speaker 6: was the smartest man in the room, and he testified
Speaker 6: on his own behalf, and so I was able to
Speaker 6: include some of just the absurdities, and he laughed, he
Speaker 6: mocked people. It was really pretty sad, but he you know,
Speaker 6: I said he was too mean to die, but he
Speaker 6: did after the trial. But so it's gone full circle
Speaker 6: now the book, you know, the twenty fifteen I had
Speaker 6: an addition come out with his arrest and now the conviction,
Speaker 6: and then the New York District Attorney filed charges against
Speaker 6: Robert Durst before he died for the murder of his wife, Kathy,
Speaker 6: So that's also included in the book, and a whole
Speaker 6: lot more details. And Kathy Durst's brother I interviewed him
Speaker 6: for it as well, just a lot of details as well,
Speaker 6: things that like the forty thousand dollars masks that he
Speaker 6: was going to wear and go out, you know, try
Speaker 6: to go become a fugitive again. He testified about that,
Speaker 6: he admitted it. So there's a whole lot more in
Speaker 6: the book. And as I said, it's complete now. So
Speaker 6: I'm very happy about that.
Speaker 5: Let's we have to go back in this story and
Speaker 5: can't just talk about the trial and because there's too
Speaker 5: much to to really unpack. So as you do in
Speaker 5: the book, let's go back to how Susan Berman met
Speaker 5: Robert Durst, but also who Susan Berman really was.
Speaker 6: Well, Susan met Robert Durst at UCLA when she was
Speaker 6: an undergrad there and he was there for graduate school.
Speaker 6: They met in the quad and became instant friends. They
Speaker 6: had a lot in common. Bobby to her, I call
Speaker 6: him Bobby because she called him that. But Durst to
Speaker 6: her was mysterious. He was kind of a quiet, quiet guy,
Speaker 6: and they had a lot in common because he came
Speaker 6: from money, she came from money. They both lost their
Speaker 6: mothers at a young age, and it just was an
Speaker 6: instant bond and she always looked at him as as
Speaker 6: her big brother. And then Susan's background was her dad
Speaker 6: was Davey Berman, who became a He was a mobster
Speaker 6: in the Midwest and came out to Las Vegas in
Speaker 6: forty six, I think it was to nineteen forty six
Speaker 6: to be partners with Bugsy Siegel and Davy Berman ran
Speaker 6: the Riviera and the skim you know, you know, the
Speaker 6: mob gets as much the owners get that much, so
Speaker 6: he ran the casino for the skim for the mob,
Speaker 6: Chicago Mob, and she grew up in She grew up
Speaker 6: in luxury and spoiled, rotten and had an and she
Speaker 6: adored her father and he died when she was twelve,
Speaker 6: and then her mother committed suicide when she was thirteen.
Speaker 6: She went to live with her uncle, Chickie, who was
Speaker 6: also in the mob, and went to private school and
Speaker 6: then went to college and that's when she met Robert durs.
Speaker 5: You talk about her career that once she found out
Speaker 5: about her father, she was so sheltered her life that
Speaker 5: she didn't find out about her father's past, and murderous
Speaker 5: passed and organized crime passed till she was almost she
Speaker 5: was in her teenager, almost twenty years old. So as
Speaker 5: a result of that, what did she do, as you write,
Speaker 5: what was the result of gaining this information and what
Speaker 5: should she do as a result? What did she become?
Speaker 6: Susan became a historian for her father. She wrote the
Speaker 6: book Easy Street, which was an incredible book. It's really
Speaker 6: just be you know, her entire life with her parents,
Speaker 6: and she had her father on a pedestal and bragged
Speaker 6: on when she wrote When her book came out, Easy Street,
Speaker 6: she was on Jane Pauly's show and said, and proudly said,
Speaker 6: she read it in the book she researched. She spent
Speaker 6: years researching her father and anything who was mentioned, and
Speaker 6: she devoured it. And she very proudly said on National
Speaker 6: TV that her father could kill a man with one
Speaker 6: hand behind his back. And when her body was found
Speaker 6: in her house greeting police in the house above her fireplace,
Speaker 6: Mantle was a wanted poster for murder for her father,
Speaker 6: and she carried around his police mugshot in her wallet.
Speaker 6: She was quite proud of who he was and thought
Speaker 6: he didn't get enough notice as a big monster in Vegas,
Speaker 6: that others got more notice, and he did, and she
Speaker 6: was trying to put his name out there and give
Speaker 6: him notoriety.
Speaker 5: She was trained as a journalist under some very fine journalists,
Speaker 5: and so she became a respected journalist before she wrote
Speaker 5: novels and then wrote Easy Street. Tell us what the
Speaker 5: relationship was. You mentioned that they were like brother and sister,
Speaker 5: but Susan always wanted to have children. So tell us
Speaker 5: about what happened in her life for this to become
Speaker 5: a reality.
Speaker 6: Which Susan. Susan got married to mister Margalise. His dad
Speaker 6: worked for her father, the Flamingo, and she met him
Speaker 6: in line at the Writers Guild in Los Angeles, but
Speaker 6: didn't he had substance problems, and so they divorced and
Speaker 6: she quickly met a man named Paul, and he had
Speaker 6: two children, and Sarah and Milla, and uh they were
Speaker 6: he met She met the daughter first. The boy was
Speaker 6: a little bit older and she was. She became a
Speaker 6: mother and housekeeper and you know, took care of the
Speaker 6: house away she was. She was raised until her parents died.
Speaker 6: And and because she had she had a family, you know,
Speaker 6: a core family in Las Vegas was with lots of
Speaker 6: She had a bodyguard, you know growing up you know
Speaker 6: who is a mobster who was assigned to her and
Speaker 6: he stayed with her until she graduated from high school.
Speaker 6: And so she just relished that life. But she and
Speaker 6: her husband got into a theater deal and Susan took
Speaker 6: all the money she had left. She she inherited a
Speaker 6: lot of money over the years, and she took all
Speaker 6: the money she had left and put it into this
Speaker 6: project that bombed in New York. She went and spent
Speaker 6: time in New York, and she and Paul they lived together.
Speaker 6: They did it. They weren't married. But when they splad
Speaker 6: up over the film and the loss of the money
Speaker 6: or the theater production and the loss of the money,
Speaker 6: Meli stayed with her and stayed with Susan, and Susan
Speaker 6: finished raising her until the girl entered college. So for
Speaker 6: Susan it was a dream come true meeting him because
Speaker 6: she had the children she wanted that she'd always wanted.
Speaker 5: You talk about the money that she had, and that
Speaker 5: she was spoiled when she was a kid, and every
Speaker 5: whim was entertained. Talked about Liberachi playing at her birthday party,
Speaker 5: and one time she asked if he could her father,
Speaker 5: very influential and powerful father, could get Elvis Presley to
Speaker 5: do something for her birthday, and she did get that
Speaker 5: as well. Tell us a little bit about the deal
Speaker 5: that happened where she got a lot of money from
Speaker 5: the world from the casino, so in effect, the organized
Speaker 5: crime partners that he had took care of her and
Speaker 5: then gave her a significant amount of money. You talk
Speaker 5: about five point two five million and significant. So tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about this deal. And regardless of
Speaker 5: that money. What kind of financial situation was she in
Speaker 5: most of the time.
Speaker 6: Well, Susan did inherit money from the time she was
Speaker 6: twenty one until she was thirty, and her dad owned
Speaker 6: a percentage of time shares in Las Vegas, a couple
Speaker 6: of casinos. I think the mint might have been one
Speaker 6: of them, a Flamingo, and there was one other It's
Speaker 6: in the book. And so they gave her payments and
Speaker 6: her uncle Chickie, until she was twenty one, he got
Speaker 6: paid to take care of her and provide her with things,
Speaker 6: and her cousin who she grew up with her that
Speaker 6: part of her childhood, her older childhood, her cousins were
Speaker 6: in same household where their father was doting Susan with
Speaker 6: all these things. Well, he was doing it because he
Speaker 6: was getting paid to do it and told to do it.
Speaker 6: It was part of the trust because of his interest.
Speaker 6: So it wasn't really the mobsters who were paying him.
Speaker 6: It was the casinos. He had an interest, and there
Speaker 6: was a business manager who took care of it for
Speaker 6: all of them, and so they would dole out the money.
Speaker 6: I think it was. She got three large payments, one
Speaker 6: when she was twenty one one, when she was twenty five,
Speaker 6: I believe, and then another when she was thirty, and
Speaker 6: that ended it, and it added up to the five
Speaker 6: point something million dollars. And so Susan, instead of investing
Speaker 6: the money, which she could have lived off of the
Speaker 6: interest for the rest of her life and lived very well,
Speaker 6: she spent it. She also got one hundred and eighty
Speaker 6: five thousand dollars advance for her book Easy Street, and
Speaker 6: she got a movie deal that was lucrative, fell through,
Speaker 6: but she got to keep She got to keep the money,
Speaker 6: which was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. She
Speaker 6: bought a house in Los Angeles and lost it because
Speaker 6: over after the theater deal fell through with her boyfriend Paul,
Speaker 6: she went into foreclosure and lost her house. She would
Speaker 6: hit up all of her friends, and her friends didn't
Speaker 6: know Susan didn't tell them that she was, that she
Speaker 6: had come into money, and that she had had all
Speaker 6: this money until she was thirty. And she she would
Speaker 6: go to Elaine's when she was living in New York
Speaker 6: in her in her twenties, she would go to Elaine's,
Speaker 6: you know, the big Tony restaurant there and buy everybody dinner.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: She would she would go and buy buy custom alligators
Speaker 6: shoes or boots and get three colors instead of one.
Speaker 6: She'd get four silk shirts for her south blouses instead
Speaker 6: of one. So she spent lavishly, and I think it
Speaker 6: was because of her childhood. No one ever gave her
Speaker 6: the tools to manage her life. Everything was always taken
Speaker 6: care for her. She had drivers, she had you know,
Speaker 6: everything was done for her. And she was you know,
Speaker 6: she was a poor, little rich girl basically, and who
Speaker 6: should have been able to maintain an incredible lifestyle with
Speaker 6: the money she was given. But she squandered at all.
Speaker 6: And she lived her house when she died was sad.
Speaker 6: I mean she she had pulled the carpet up in
Speaker 6: the floor. She was living on concrete floors and unfinished,
Speaker 6: and the heat didn't work, and her half furniture was
Speaker 6: gone or broken, and she had a bed that wasn't
Speaker 6: even on a box spring that was on the floor.
Speaker 6: It was sad. But Robert Durst, she'd turned to him
Speaker 6: for money, and we know that twice he gave her
Speaker 6: twenty five thousand dollars payments. One right before she died
Speaker 6: because her car died and she needed a new new car.
Speaker 6: So it's a story of I mean, she joked in
Speaker 6: a letter that she had written to Robert Durst, which
Speaker 6: became part of the court record in this trial. She
Speaker 6: joked that she was going to write a new book
Speaker 6: and it was going to be called rich Girl Broke.
Speaker 6: She didn't mind that people knew that she was broke.
Speaker 6: She hit up all her friends for fifteen hundred, five hundred,
Speaker 6: you know, one thousand. They would give her money, not
Speaker 6: knowing that she at one time had a lot.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about Robert Durst. Now again, the friend that
Speaker 5: has comes from billionaire real estate magnates. This guy has Holmes.
Speaker 5: This guy has lived very similar to Susan Berman, probably
Speaker 5: in much more affluence as well. But Robert Durst marries
Speaker 5: a woman named Kathy, and so the relationship between Susan
Speaker 5: and Robert Durst is different. Why is that? And how
Speaker 5: did Kathy and Susan get along?
Speaker 6: Well, Susan did a lot with Bobby and and Kathy.
Speaker 6: They would go places together and their photos of them together.
Speaker 6: When she had her book signing, Bobby was still married
Speaker 6: to Kathy, and he put he paid for her book
Speaker 6: launch and for Easy Street. I think there was another
Speaker 6: book signing that he did for one of her novels,
Speaker 6: What is it, Soldier, Give me a gun? Or what
Speaker 6: give me a lift? Soldier Give me a lift? And
Speaker 6: she had a book book signing in New York as
Speaker 6: well for that, and Bobby was a part of it.
Speaker 6: So I don't she got along with Kathy from from
Speaker 6: all appearances people said that they got along. She wasn't
Speaker 6: really a friend of Kathy. She was, you know, he
Speaker 6: was a wife of her best friend and of Susan's
Speaker 6: best friend. I've talked to friends who got together and
Speaker 6: saw them together, her with Bobby and Kathy, and she
Speaker 6: always voted on Bobby, but Kathy didn't seem to mind.
Speaker 6: But at the same time, Kathy was going through a
Speaker 6: period where she was being abused by Robert Durst and
Speaker 6: was reached out to a couple of friends, but felt
Speaker 6: very isolated and was kind of into herself quite a bit,
Speaker 6: going to medical school and trying to survive her marriage
Speaker 6: at the same time. And I think she had plans
Speaker 6: to leave Robert Durst, and that that's why ultimately Kathy
Speaker 6: Durst got killed.
Speaker 5: You talk about her being killed, but the thing is
Speaker 5: she disappears in nineteen eighty two. Just tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit of theirircumstances that police were aware of at
Speaker 5: that time in this disappearance.
Speaker 6: Well, Calthy Durst disappeared in nineteen eighty two and Robert
Speaker 6: Durst didn't report it for a week. She was supposed
Speaker 6: to be It was her finals week, she was in
Speaker 6: medical school and so it was a very important day.
Speaker 6: The next she had a fight with Bobby Durst over
Speaker 6: her attending a party at a friend's house, and he
Speaker 6: said he took her to the train so she could
Speaker 6: go stay in their New York penthouse and go to
Speaker 6: school the next day in New York. And she never
Speaker 6: made it on the train. She never made it to school.
Speaker 6: And Susan's role in that and ultimately I believe got
Speaker 6: her killed. And maybe I'm jumping ahead, but Susan was
Speaker 6: his media person. So when the media wanted to talk
Speaker 6: to Robert Durst because he's with this great, big real
Speaker 6: estate mogul family, I mean, his family built a towers
Speaker 6: in New York, and Susan he needed to talk to
Speaker 6: the media. They were requesting, you know, interviews with him
Speaker 6: over his missing wife, and Susan became his media spokesperson.
Speaker 6: Also a phone call was made to the school, which
Speaker 6: is unusual for a medical student at her level. She
Speaker 6: was about to graduate, and Kathy Durst was about to
Speaker 6: graduate for a medical student to call in sick. And
Speaker 6: so a woman called in sick the next morning on
Speaker 6: behalf of saying she was Kathy Durst. Only she called
Speaker 6: the wrong office. So obviously whoever called in didn't know
Speaker 6: the right place to call, and the police believed for
Speaker 6: years that it was Susan who made that call, and
Speaker 6: because she would have done anything for Bobby Durst.
Speaker 5: So you're right that police had Durst as a suspect,
Speaker 5: but very much, especially because of the high powered attorneys
Speaker 5: that his family could afford him. The district attorney was
Speaker 5: hesitant to do anything against him since they couldn't even
Speaker 5: get an official interview with him. They talked to him
Speaker 5: on the phone after a bunch of days, so needless
Speaker 5: to say, they suspected him, but couldn't do anything about
Speaker 5: that suspicion.
Speaker 6: Correct. Well, the interesting thing I think the clout with
Speaker 6: the family Seymour Durst. His father was very powerful and
Speaker 6: he made phone calls to the police. But the interesting thing,
Speaker 6: the interesting angle is Robert Durst did not report his
Speaker 6: wife missing from Westchester Salem in Westchester County, New York.
Speaker 6: He reported her missing in Manhattan, and he waited five
Speaker 6: days to go. He walked into the Manhattan Bureau. I
Speaker 6: went there and interviewed them, the detectives in Manhattan, and
Speaker 6: he walk in with his dog and told him his
Speaker 6: wife was missing and from Manhattan from their apartment in Manhattan.
Speaker 6: And there was no follow up with the New York
Speaker 6: Police Department Manhattan and then Westchester County was she lived there,
Speaker 6: but she wasn't reported missing from there And basically the
Speaker 6: case just stalled.
Speaker 5: With this case stalling and with the police not be
Speaker 5: able to do much with this cold case, what was
Speaker 5: Robert Durst doing in the meantime? Again, police suspected him,
Speaker 5: but he went on and was living his life. But
Speaker 5: he didn't become a serious suspect at all, even in
Speaker 5: the disappearance of his wife. What happens with the person
Speaker 5: named Morris.
Speaker 6: Black So the Westchester Police Janine Perro was the district
Speaker 6: attorney at the time. She launched an investigation uh a
Speaker 6: few a few years later and Durstcott and Susan in
Speaker 6: the meantime quickly Susan Berman. In the meantime, quickly left
Speaker 6: New York and went to La, saying she wanted to
Speaker 6: be a screenwriter. Susan was freelancing for New York Magazine
Speaker 6: and a few others. She was, you know, a good
Speaker 6: writer and had excellent writing gigs and worked for them.
Speaker 6: She worked with Nicholas Plagy at a magazine, and she
Speaker 6: could have had an incredible career had she continued on
Speaker 6: but in writing books. But I think she got spooked
Speaker 6: because of Kathy Durst, and she knew what happened to her,
Speaker 6: I believe, and she went to New La shows liked LA.
Speaker 6: Susan did because her dad took her there on weekend trips.
Speaker 6: And in the meantime, the police were investigating Durst. He
Speaker 6: was walking, you know, walking as a free man, and
Speaker 6: he was supposed to take over the Durst organization, but
Speaker 6: he was getting, you know, crazier and crazier. His behavior
Speaker 6: was odd. Durst was in his family and his father
Speaker 6: didn't want to give him the business anymore and wanted
Speaker 6: to give it to his brother. So Durst, as as
Speaker 6: the police in Westchester close in on him, just takes
Speaker 6: off and goes to Galveston Bay and lives as a woman,
Speaker 6: a mute woman, in a three hundred dollars a month bungalow,
Speaker 6: and his next door neighbor is Morris Black. Morris Black
Speaker 6: figures out who Durst is and then he gets dead.
Speaker 6: So Durst chops him up his body, shoots him, says
Speaker 6: it was self defense because they were fighting over a
Speaker 6: gun and accidentally went off. So Durs chopped up his
Speaker 6: body and dumped it in bags in Galveston Bay. Well,
Speaker 6: it floated up, so he got charged with murder, and
Speaker 6: a Galveston, a Galveston jury believed him that it was
Speaker 6: self defense, and he was acquitted of murder.
Speaker 5: Yes, you say that he was represented by famed attorney
Speaker 5: Dick Degurin, and you can see the skills that Dick
Speaker 5: de Gurin had if under those under this circumstances and
Speaker 5: all of the evidence that they had for him to
Speaker 5: be acquitted was incredible lowering.
Speaker 6: I think it was an incredible moment, yes, because I
Speaker 6: mean the man he admitted killing him, there were no
Speaker 6: witnesses discarding the body the way he did it was
Speaker 6: pretty unbelievable. But yes, he had the best attorney money
Speaker 6: can buy and was very active in his own defense.
Speaker 6: You know, he's very talkative when he's sitting at the
Speaker 6: defense table and tells his attorneys what to do. They
Speaker 6: believed him, and so he went on and you know,
Speaker 6: he ends up being you know, killing three people. Meantime,
Speaker 6: in two thousand, Susan was killed and Durce was supposed
Speaker 6: to visit her house, visit her in la and go
Speaker 6: to her house sometime before the holidays. She was killed
Speaker 6: on December twenty third, we think at night or in
Speaker 6: the twenty fourth in the morning, and her dogs were
Speaker 6: out for twenty four hours, and that's how that's how
Speaker 6: her body was found. Neighbors complained about her dogs and
Speaker 6: called police and said something was wrong. Her back door
Speaker 6: was open and she was rigor Mortis was already gone
Speaker 6: when her body was found, so they figure it was
Speaker 6: anywhere from twelve to twenty four hours earlier. Durst happened
Speaker 6: to be in town and the LAPD though didn't They
Speaker 6: said he wanted to cooperate, they couldn't get him to
Speaker 6: interview with them. There was a funeral waiting for him
Speaker 6: to attend his best friend's funeral. He didn't show and
Speaker 6: the case went cold. So Bobby Durst continued living a freeman.
Speaker 5: What was it about the what prompted the police to suddenly,
Speaker 5: after all this time, want to talk to Susan Berman
Speaker 5: when essentially she had provided some sort of alibi for him. Essentially,
Speaker 5: you don't really point out what exactly that was. But
Speaker 5: being the spokesperson, well, what was it that prompted the
Speaker 5: police after all this time to want to speak to
Speaker 5: Susan Berman.
Speaker 6: Well, the alibi was her calling school. I'm saying she
Speaker 6: was Kathy Durst, that's the belief, and she gave Bobby
Speaker 6: an alibi, and she placed her murder in Manhattan rather
Speaker 6: than then in Westchester County. What happened then with Robert
Speaker 6: Durst is why he got off for so many years.
Speaker 6: Seymour Or Durst called the district attorned to Los Angeles
Speaker 6: District Attorney and said, trying to contact my son, and
Speaker 6: they did. They stopped trying to contact his son, Robert Durst.
Speaker 6: And so Robert Durst lived a free man, had property
Speaker 6: in San Francisco, bought houses in New York, harassed his brother.
Speaker 6: He became really a strange from his own family and
Speaker 6: kind of just did his own thing. And Susan had
Speaker 6: difficult time getting a hold of him when he was
Speaker 6: in Galveston and being living as a mute woman trying
Speaker 6: to hide from the Westchester County police, and her case
Speaker 6: went cold until a deputy district attorney by the name
Speaker 6: of David Lewin came along and wanted to reinvestigate the case,
Speaker 6: and then everything turned upside down for Robert Durst. Also
Speaker 6: Durst because he was a narcissist and thought he was
Speaker 6: the smartest person in the world. He wanted a documentary
Speaker 6: done about himself. So he approached a documentary filmmaker who'd
Speaker 6: done the book, who'd done a movie was based on
Speaker 6: a true story Kathy Durst's disappearance. Robert liked it. Robert
Speaker 6: Durst liked that movie, and so he approached a producer
Speaker 6: and said, hey, you know, would you do a movie?
Speaker 6: Would you do a documentary on my life? And they did,
Speaker 6: and that's when he made a partial admission in the film.
Speaker 6: And then the police at the same time in Los
Speaker 6: Angeles were closing in on him, and he admitted on
Speaker 6: a documentary that I killed them all and he he
Speaker 6: was still Mike, and he was in a bathroom and
Speaker 6: said that, and then he was rested I think two
Speaker 6: days later in twenty fifteen, and he was never released
Speaker 6: until and then went to trial. It was supposed to
Speaker 6: go to trial in two thousand and nineteen, started the trial,
Speaker 6: COVID happened. They put it on hold for at least
Speaker 6: a year. He went back to trial.
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Speaker 5: com slash Murder. Now, Cathy, you talked about finally closing
Speaker 5: in on Robert Durst. The thing is that many and
Speaker 5: you you explain this in the book. You talk about
Speaker 5: that many people that watched that documentary called the Jinks
Speaker 5: and where on the as you mentioned, the last episode,
Speaker 5: he was already in custody, but in the episode he
Speaker 5: he has this mic as you as you mentioned, and
Speaker 5: he says things, what have I done? How did I
Speaker 5: What did I do? I killed all of these? I
Speaker 5: guess something to that effect. The thing is is that
Speaker 5: police didn't really look at that JINX documentary and get
Speaker 5: the information that a lot of people thought was derived
Speaker 5: from that. You talk about two other women that they
Speaker 5: were police were seriously investigating in other jurisdictions that had
Speaker 5: it looked like the signature of Robert Durst. Tell us
Speaker 5: about that, please.
Speaker 6: Okay, First, the Jinks on the fifth episode of The
Speaker 6: Jinks was where he made that admission what did I Do?
Speaker 6: Killed them?
Speaker 3: All?
Speaker 6: The district attorney and police were already headed to New Orleans.
Speaker 6: They knew that he was there and we're getting ready
Speaker 6: to question him. They were going to question him with
Speaker 6: the Jinks and admission that came out because they the
Speaker 6: interview with him was the day after coincidentally, because you're right,
Speaker 6: they didn't have all the goods yet, but they were
Speaker 6: on him with that Jinks admission. Then they went ahead
Speaker 6: and they held him in custody and they arrested him
Speaker 6: and charged him. So there's kind of a nebulous It
Speaker 6: depends on who you talk to what came first, the
Speaker 6: police or Jinks. So the problem is Dick Dick de Geary,
Speaker 6: the attorney. He said to me, and I included in
Speaker 6: my book that Durst was in the air at the
Speaker 6: time Susan was killed. No, Durst was in the air
Speaker 6: twenty four hours after Susan was killed. He was in California,
Speaker 6: had plenty of time to drive back and forth to
Speaker 6: from San Francisco to La kill her, turn around, go
Speaker 6: write the letter about a body being in her house
Speaker 6: cadaver letter, and then have enough time to drive back
Speaker 6: to San Francisco and fly out to New York a
Speaker 6: day later. So, yes, two girls were missing, and that
Speaker 6: gave and one girl who was seen with Durst. I
Speaker 6: interviewed the police in both towns where those girls were missing.
Speaker 6: They're pretty sure of the one. They didn't have enough
Speaker 6: evidence on the other. But that gave the Los Angeles Police,
Speaker 6: working with other police departments to hone in a little
Speaker 6: bit more on him and question him. So they were
Speaker 6: the walls were closing in on Durst, which is why
Speaker 6: he left. The reason the reason he took off for
Speaker 6: New Orleans was because, as someone leaked to the media
Speaker 6: that Westchester County was reinvestigating the murder of Kathy Durst
Speaker 6: or the miss disappearance of Kathy Durst, and they wanted
Speaker 6: to talk to Susan Berman because she was his spokesperson,
Speaker 6: and they wanted to talk to her about whoever called,
Speaker 6: claiming they were, you know, Kathy Durst to the UH
Speaker 6: to the school. That was the alibi she made for him.
Speaker 6: They wanted to talk to Susan. That was all that
Speaker 6: came out, Susan. It came out in court, Susan told
Speaker 6: when she finally was able to reach Durst, she told
Speaker 6: him what do I do? Westchester County police have called
Speaker 6: me and want to interview me and about Kathy's disappearance.
Speaker 6: What do I do? And Durst said, well, do what
Speaker 6: you want. And on the stand when he was testifying
Speaker 6: in Susan's murder case, he said, what was I supposed
Speaker 6: to do? Say no, don't talk to them. So that
Speaker 6: Susan saying the police had called her, they hadn't called her.
Speaker 6: They put out the word that they wanted to reach her,
Speaker 6: but they hadn't called her, and that I believe is
Speaker 6: the reason he killed her. And that's what the deer
Speaker 6: believes as well.
Speaker 5: And also the district attorney. Despite the fact that she
Speaker 5: would get money from all of her friends, that she
Speaker 5: had rent free at a place for five years and
Speaker 5: then another place for a year, and so she was
Speaker 5: benefit from the largess of her friends. But the thing
Speaker 5: is that Robert Durst, and especially the timing of these payments,
Speaker 5: had sent twenty five thousand dollars and then another twenty
Speaker 5: five thousand dollars and saying that it was not alone,
Speaker 5: it was a gift, so that it did feed into
Speaker 5: the idea that there was a motivation for Susan to
Speaker 5: be able to be his spokesperson, his alibi and to
Speaker 5: keep her mouth shut all those years.
Speaker 6: Yes, when he and he'd given her money at other times,
Speaker 6: but people, you know, she didn't talk about it that much,
Speaker 6: so people didn't realize how much. But the twenty five
Speaker 6: thousand dollars and two separate payments one was you know,
Speaker 6: she was she was being evicted from her her rental
Speaker 6: house in Benedett Canyon near la and she was desperate
Speaker 6: for money and was desperate to reach him, and so
Speaker 6: he sent it to her. She also, and this is
Speaker 6: a key point that came out in the trial and
Speaker 6: hadn't been known until then until Dur's testimony, she sent
Speaker 6: when he told her he was going to come to town,
Speaker 6: which was going to go there and kill her. But
Speaker 6: when that's what police believe in that seems to be
Speaker 6: the motive is and then paying her money to try
Speaker 6: to keep her quiet. He was afraid though she would
Speaker 6: talk and his I mean, but that does that does
Speaker 6: appear to be the I'm sorry, I got a track
Speaker 6: he sent She sent him a set of keys. And
Speaker 6: that's one thing. No, I couldn't figure it out. The
Speaker 6: police couldn't figure out. How did he get in the house?
Speaker 3: Did he not?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 6: And then he shot her in the back of the head.
Speaker 6: But he had a key to her house and she
Speaker 6: had gone out to dinner with a friend. And I
Speaker 6: believe and I think the DA's office believes the same,
Speaker 6: that he went into the house and waited for her,
Speaker 6: and then when she walked down the hallway toward her
Speaker 6: room where she kept her dogs. Created that's the room
Speaker 6: she was shot in, he shot her in the back
Speaker 6: of the head. She didn't see what was coming. He
Speaker 6: parked his he uh. Then he returned to the house
Speaker 6: the next morning, he said, and parked his car in
Speaker 6: front of the driveway. Just odd, just odd circumstances all
Speaker 6: the way around. But her telling him that, you know,
Speaker 6: police wanted to talk to her. I think is what
Speaker 6: God had killed, and then he was trying to give
Speaker 6: her money to pay her off. But Susan talked a lot.
Speaker 6: She talked too much sometimes and sort of stream of
Speaker 6: consciousness told him what she was thinking. And I think
Speaker 6: he thought she was going to talk to the police
Speaker 6: and spill the beans, and the money he gave her
Speaker 6: didn't shut her up, and so he did the dirty d.
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Speaker 5: Now you talked about the trial. You write about the
Speaker 5: trial extensively in this new updated edition very interesting that he,
Speaker 5: against the advice of his attorneys, he takes the stand
Speaker 5: to testify, and you know, it's a very interesting to
Speaker 5: see how many days they keep him on the stand.
Speaker 5: Fourteen days. So when we talk about some of these
Speaker 5: things that you learn, we all learn about this case,
Speaker 5: it's from that fourteen days of a blistering cross examination
Speaker 5: that he puts himself under that some of this information,
Speaker 5: a lot of this damning information leaks out during that testimony,
Speaker 5: doesn't it It does.
Speaker 6: It was eye opening. I mean it was you could
Speaker 6: have dropped a pin. I wish I'd been in the courtroom,
Speaker 6: but even on TV watching it, and he was his
Speaker 6: own worst enemy. But like I said before, he thought
Speaker 6: he was the smartest person in the room. He thought
Speaker 6: he was smarter than everybody. And he actually was in
Speaker 6: such decrepit condition. I mean, he looked like a walking skeleton.
Speaker 6: But there are people who believe in the district attorney
Speaker 6: had said it at one point that they were making
Speaker 6: him his attorneys the way they dressed him, the way
Speaker 6: you know, he was in a wheelchair, he slouched down,
Speaker 6: trying to look pitifall at times, you know, and he was,
Speaker 6: but he have a really strong voice during the trial,
Speaker 6: and then sometimes his voice would go up like he
Speaker 6: didn't have enough error to speak. But I do believe
Speaker 6: it was he was his own worst enemy because he
Speaker 6: thought he was so smart, smart as a fox. He
Speaker 6: did himself in because I don't know if that testimony.
Speaker 6: Without his testimony, I don't know that he would have
Speaker 6: been convicted. He was not. He was not as sympathetic
Speaker 6: sympathetic witness at all. He laughed at people, he made
Speaker 6: fun of them. He's a very unlikable person. And it
Speaker 6: came across real well to the jury.
Speaker 5: You taught you write about a secret witness in this
Speaker 5: trial named Nick Chauvin. He was an advertising executive in
Speaker 5: New York that said that he testified that he spoke
Speaker 5: to Robert Durst after Susan Berman's death. What did he say, apparently,
Speaker 5: what did he say that Robert Durst said?
Speaker 6: He said he had to do it, you know, it
Speaker 6: was either him or her, and he didn't have a choice.
Speaker 6: It was quite a moment and it was shocking, shocking
Speaker 6: to his friend, and he ended up speaking. He was,
Speaker 6: you know, he was afraid for his own life, which
Speaker 6: is why he was so clandestine until until the trial
Speaker 6: who he was, who that witness was. It was all
Speaker 6: kept under under wraps before then, but basically he said
Speaker 6: it was either her or me, so took her out.
Speaker 6: And you know one thing, you know, murder, as you know,
Speaker 6: you cover it so much, and it is it is
Speaker 6: the ultimate thing you can do. It is just taking
Speaker 6: someone's life is a huge thing for the person who
Speaker 6: commits it sometimes and and for Durst was so monumental.
Speaker 6: I think he just had to share it. And then
Speaker 6: that guy was the one who testified against him was
Speaker 6: one of his closest friends. Bobby didn't have very many friends,
Speaker 6: and it stunned him so much that he had to
Speaker 6: tell someone.
Speaker 5: You talk about the LAPD Lieutenant Tom Thompson and who
Speaker 5: oversaw this Susan Berman investigation in twenty twelve, but he
Speaker 5: got a call from Eureka police and that's when they
Speaker 5: really zeroed in on Robert Durst because now they realize
Speaker 5: that there are other people that fit his mo and
Speaker 5: in regards to that, they then zeroed in on on
Speaker 5: Robert Durst in this trial. Which I found was very
Speaker 5: interesting too, is that they were allowed to bring up
Speaker 5: the Morris Black murder, Well Morris Black Murder dismemberment. Regardless
Speaker 5: of the acquittal. That couldn't have helped Robert Durst look
Speaker 5: sympathetic or less guilty at all at that trial.
Speaker 3: Would it?
Speaker 6: No, didn't, But they had to be careful what they
Speaker 6: said though about the trial they were. You would see
Speaker 6: Dick de Garan, the defense attorney for Durs, jump out
Speaker 6: of his out of his seat quite a lot. I
Speaker 6: saw Durst, I saw Geron in court in in Las
Speaker 6: Vegas in action Dick de Garon, and he was not
Speaker 6: as energetic during this trial as he was during the
Speaker 6: Galveston trial. And during the trial I saw him in
Speaker 6: in the courtroom in Las Vegas for an unrelated case.
Speaker 6: But the judge they had certain things they were allowed
Speaker 6: to say, in certain things the defense was not allowed
Speaker 6: to say. Otherwise it could have very easily turned into
Speaker 6: a mistrial. But the Eureka case, and I interviewed all
Speaker 6: the people up in that area too. The Eureka case
Speaker 6: was important for because there was a lot of evidence.
Speaker 6: Was important for the Los Angeles investigation because it basically
Speaker 6: called them a serial killer. You know three or more
Speaker 6: and you're a serial killer, and so wide, and if
Speaker 6: they couldn't get them on Susan they would help Eureka
Speaker 6: and try to get them on another case. But what
Speaker 6: it also did for them is that it gave them
Speaker 6: because they were investigating diursts up in the San Francisco
Speaker 6: area and the Eureka area in northern California, they were
Speaker 6: able to follow his footsteps a little bit more and
Speaker 6: that gave them They shared evidence, and that gave them
Speaker 6: more fodder to bring an indictment against Durch. So two
Speaker 6: departments working together was greatly in favor of the Susan
Speaker 6: Berman case.
Speaker 5: What helped, too was that he had he was a
Speaker 5: flight risk, so regardless of the money that he had
Speaker 5: in this regard, there was not going to be any
Speaker 5: kind of bond. What we didn't talk about in this
Speaker 5: case was that when he originally was charged for the
Speaker 5: Morris Black murder and he had marijuana on him and
Speaker 5: a handgun, they didn't know who he was. Authorities didn't
Speaker 5: know who he was.
Speaker 6: Tell us about that, right, and then he ends up
Speaker 6: you know, one point, he gets arrested in Pennsylvania and
Speaker 6: as college town they didn't know who he was either.
Speaker 6: So when Galveston first got him, he goes in and
Speaker 6: they was either shoot Pennsylvania or Galveston, they get him
Speaker 6: into a room, you know, to interview him, ask him questions.
Speaker 6: And in Pennsylvania, of course, he was arrested for stealing
Speaker 6: the band aid and the tune of Fish Sandwich, and
Speaker 6: they didn't know who he was. And he left and
Speaker 6: he thought it was funny because he had fake IDs,
Speaker 6: he was fake identities, he was fake masks and all
Speaker 6: kinds of things and wigs that he would wear. So
Speaker 6: Durst was actually getting to kick out of the fact
Speaker 6: that police had him and they let him go. But eventually,
Speaker 6: of course they you know, he did end up in
Speaker 6: the Galveston courtroom.
Speaker 5: You talk about the trial of Susan Berman and then
Speaker 5: the trial of Kathy Durst. Obviously, is he is convicted.
Speaker 5: You said, this case started in twenty nineteen, but then
Speaker 5: with the COVID so he only had a weekend at
Speaker 5: trial originally and then it was postponed. So the interim
Speaker 5: you say, like he did wheeled him in with a
Speaker 5: wheelchair and his health was failing. He sure looked like,
Speaker 5: you know, he had aged quite a bit while he
Speaker 5: was in custody. Uh, just tell us about the how
Speaker 5: many how much, how long it was and what he
Speaker 5: did die from in prison.
Speaker 6: It was about a year. There were lots of delays
Speaker 6: in the case and it was about a year before
Speaker 6: they tried him at the La Airport court court room,
Speaker 6: and he he had cancer of the bladder and he
Speaker 6: had I think copd Ye had lung problems. But he
Speaker 6: had a cathain er in court which he proudly, smilingly
Speaker 6: lifted and said, you know, judge asked a question about
Speaker 6: it or something. He lifted and showed it to the
Speaker 6: judge with the smile on his face, and you know,
Speaker 6: the bag was urine in it, and he was just
Speaker 6: he liked to shock people. But so he his health
Speaker 6: continued failing. They actually he was hospitalized and the trial
Speaker 6: had to stop again, and then he got COVID and
Speaker 6: couldn't have attend some of the hearings, and everybody thought
Speaker 6: he was going to die of COVID and he did it,
Speaker 6: and he ended up being convicted and then sent to
Speaker 6: the correction Center's hospital, which was far worse than you know,
Speaker 6: he was at the UCLA hospital before that, I think,
Speaker 6: right well, in La But then then he was in
Speaker 6: prison until he wh when did he die in December
Speaker 6: tenth January tenth. So the trial ended and he went
Speaker 6: to prison for a couple of well a few weeks,
Speaker 6: a couple of months, and they were taking him for
Speaker 6: an appointment. He was in the Priston Hospital. They wheeled
Speaker 6: him over and took him to an appointment for testing
Speaker 6: and for some sort of medical tests. And in the
Speaker 6: testing in the in the in the doctor's office is
Speaker 6: when he went into cardiac arrest and they couldn't they
Speaker 6: couldn't revive him, and he died. So he died in custody,
Speaker 6: which is what the family wanted. But but they were
Speaker 6: I mean, I talked to families with Kathy, theirs family
Speaker 6: and Susan Berman's cousin several times, and they were so
Speaker 6: afraid he was going to die during the trial and
Speaker 6: that there would be no conviction. And and it was
Speaker 6: a relief when he was he was convicted and he
Speaker 6: was still alive. And then he Westchester County Whorking because
Speaker 6: some evidence came out during his own testimony into Kathy
Speaker 6: Durst's case and they were able to take that new
Speaker 6: evidence for themselves and and file file charges in a
Speaker 6: diet Robert Durser Kathy Kathy Durst murder and so for
Speaker 6: the family, for the McCormick family, which was Kathy Durst
Speaker 6: made a name. I talked to her brother. For the family,
Speaker 6: they can now that nobody ever has to ever refer
Speaker 6: to Kathy's case, Kathy Dursts case as the disappearance of
Speaker 6: Kathy Durst, because he was charged with murder, not convicted,
Speaker 6: but charged. Now they officially can call it the murder
Speaker 6: of Kathy Durst, and that gives them, you know, quit
Speaker 6: calling you couldn't saying she disappearedly knows she was murdered
Speaker 6: now matter of fact, and that brought great, great relief
Speaker 6: to the family and some closure for Kathy Durst's family.
Speaker 5: It's interesting too when you talk about relief for Kathy
Speaker 5: durst family, but when Susan Berman was first murdered, it
Speaker 5: took days for people to find out, friends to find
Speaker 5: out what had happened, and it seemed like and you
Speaker 5: write that, it seemed like that the police already realized
Speaker 5: or the media at least concluded that this was a
Speaker 5: mob hit, and so maybe not. She was not afforded
Speaker 5: the same kind of attention and care as somebody else
Speaker 5: because of this past involving her father. But at least
Speaker 5: with Robert Durst's conviction of her murder, that was all
Speaker 5: put to rest at the mob or anything she said
Speaker 5: or wrote about the mob or was going to say
Speaker 5: about the mob had really nothing to do with this.
Speaker 5: And it was just the murderous Robert.
Speaker 6: Durst exactly, and it was it was quite stunning actually
Speaker 6: when they said the mob did it because they saw
Speaker 6: the poster, you know, above the fireplace, that wanted poster
Speaker 6: for her dad for murder. And and I think her,
Speaker 6: you know, she sort of lived in Squalor, and I
Speaker 6: think that it was just another murder her. And then
Speaker 6: it took off, you know, the media got a hold
Speaker 6: of it. It was Susan Berman, daughter of you know,
Speaker 6: Davy Berman, who was a mobster in Las Vegas, and
Speaker 6: the story took off. But then they they didn't when
Speaker 6: they couldn't get a hold of Robert Durst. And I mean,
Speaker 6: you don't give up just because you can't get a
Speaker 6: hold of somebody, the person who's assesspect. And they looked
Speaker 6: at other they looked at one of her friends and
Speaker 6: manager is that he was a person of interest for
Speaker 6: a little while. And he didn't do it, of course,
Speaker 6: and Susan had some relationships that she you know, she
Speaker 6: fell out. You know, she would she would cut people off,
Speaker 6: or she'd have a falling out with someone, either they
Speaker 6: really liked her or they didn't like her. She was
Speaker 6: quirky and eccentric, and those who really stuck with her
Speaker 6: were diehard fans or friends, and so they looked at
Speaker 6: different people. But then it just sort of they didn't
Speaker 6: because they couldn't reach him. You know, why does that
Speaker 6: stop an investigation? Because you've got a powerful man with
Speaker 6: money and his father makes phone calls. They should have
Speaker 6: continued pursuing it. And I can tell you over the years,
Speaker 6: I would follow up regularly. I went to Parker Center
Speaker 6: where they used to be the LAPD and it would
Speaker 6: interview the new homicide cop because her case. The homicide cops,
Speaker 6: I've never counted them, but there were a lot of
Speaker 6: them on her case. And it's like, oh, we're continuing,
Speaker 6: we're doing this, we're doing that. But nothing was being done.
Speaker 6: And it really did take that latest detective who jumped
Speaker 6: on it. And because of the phone call from Eureka
Speaker 6: Police and David Lewin, the Deputy District Attorney, gets a
Speaker 6: huge credit along with the detective they are the men
Speaker 6: responsible for getting the conviction for Robert Durst. It's a
Speaker 6: monumental moment that this was finally put to rest and
Speaker 6: Kathy durst murder along with it, because everything sort of
Speaker 6: has gone hand in hand. So it's quite a full circle.
Speaker 5: It's interesting, you say, too, forty years after he killed
Speaker 5: his wife in nineteen eighty two, he dies in prison
Speaker 5: almost to the day. What's somewhat reassuring is that after
Speaker 5: you do right, that, after this whole thing, is that
Speaker 5: the there is a not a resurgence, but a renewed
Speaker 5: interest in the writings and a respect for the writings
Speaker 5: of Susan Berman, their journalism, her novels, and her highly
Speaker 5: acclaimed book and the subsequent documentary Easy Street. So at
Speaker 5: least that legacy, the thing that she wanted to be
Speaker 5: known for, the thing that she tried to achieve her
Speaker 5: whole life, this recognition for writing in death and post death,
Speaker 5: at least she has some of that respect that she
Speaker 5: tried to earn throughout her career.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you put that very well, Dan. It is very
Speaker 6: true that finally she was recognized for the thing she
Speaker 6: thought so hard for. She tried to become a screenwriter.
Speaker 6: She didn't succeed. Her financial problems, you know, weighed her
Speaker 6: down a lot. She always had a new deal coming.
Speaker 6: She was energetic and excited and loved writing. And now
Speaker 6: you know, people are taking a new look at what
Speaker 6: she did and her breadth of work. Actually, you know,
Speaker 6: she went to Berkeley Journalism School, which was a very
Speaker 6: fine school, and stayed in touch with her. She got
Speaker 6: a master's degree in journalism, and you know, and made
Speaker 6: a big splash in San Francisco as a journalist there.
Speaker 6: You know, she rose to the top if there's a
Speaker 6: pecking order and when it comes to journalism careers. So
Speaker 6: it is nice to see that she's looked at as
Speaker 6: a person instead of the person who got murdered by
Speaker 6: Robert Durst.
Speaker 5: Yes, I want to thank you very much Kathy Scott
Speaker 5: for coming on and talking about your new Murder of
Speaker 5: a Mafia Daughter expanded an updated twentieth anniversary edition Robert
Speaker 5: Durst and Susan Berman, the shocking inside story For those
Speaker 5: that might want to take a look. Is there a
Speaker 5: Facebook page or a website they might take a look at.
Speaker 6: I think can go to Kathyscott dot com. But all
Speaker 6: my books and this latest twentieth anniversary edition are on
Speaker 6: Amazon dot com, but make sure they put twentieth anniversary
Speaker 6: so they don't get the earlier editions.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, thank you so much, Kathy Scott. It's been a
Speaker 5: fascinating interview. Thank you so much, and you have a
Speaker 5: great evening.
Speaker 6: Good night, My Pleasure YouTube, bybye, by bye,