Speaker 1: Coming to you from the dining room table at East
Speaker 1: Barbary Lane, we bring you a special episode of Full
Speaker 1: Circle the Podcast. I am your host, Charles Tyson Jr.
Speaker 1: And I am thrilled to be sitting with our guest today.
Speaker 1: We have a wonderful artist, author, performer and all around
Speaker 1: fierce diva. She has written a wonderful book called The
Speaker 1: Queen Bees of Tybee County. Kyle Casey Chu, Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Full Circle Table.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that illustrious open It is
Speaker 2: a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: I am so glad to sit here with you because
Speaker 1: I just finished the book. First of all, the cover
Speaker 1: is so adorable, great.
Speaker 2: Don't you love it? I do?
Speaker 1: And you know I'm looking at I was looking at
Speaker 1: the cover art after I finished the book, and I
Speaker 1: caught all the little references in the story in the
Speaker 1: art work.
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, that's just so clever. Some work
Speaker 2: of Jay Yang, who is such an angel and genius.
Speaker 1: Wonderful work.
Speaker 2: So yeah, this book is a delightful read.
Speaker 1: And I was telling Martha, was like, every time I
Speaker 1: sit down and open this book, I just inhale fifty
Speaker 1: pages and don't realize what happened.
Speaker 2: I love to hear that.
Speaker 1: So, first of all, tell me a little bit about
Speaker 1: what The Queen Bees of Tybee County is about.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so, Hello, I am Kyle Casey to aka panthera
Speaker 2: do'l say. I am a writer, a filmmaker, and one
Speaker 2: of the founding queens of Drag Story Hour, which I
Speaker 2: definitely want to. Oh, you should come. It's a good time.
Speaker 2: They're space panning their bubbles. Sometimes there's pizza. I feel
Speaker 2: look abe and The Queen Beees of Tybee County is
Speaker 2: my debut middle grade novel, and it is about Derek
Speaker 2: Cham who is a seventh grade Chinese American basketball star
Speaker 2: who is shipped off to his grandma's house in rural Georgia,
Speaker 2: where he explores his square identity, his love for drag,
Speaker 2: and his Chinese a Chinese American heritage through participating in
Speaker 2: a local pageant.
Speaker 1: There you go, And that is the the encapsulated version.
Speaker 1: But is so it's such a wild journey, and it's
Speaker 1: such a heartwarming journey and relatable. I think any queer
Speaker 1: person can relate to so many elements of this story.
Speaker 1: So how much of your personal history is in this?
Speaker 1: In Derek in any of the characters.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to give my character an experience that
Speaker 2: I had and experience that I didn't have. And so
Speaker 2: a lot of my own childhood and upbringing is infused
Speaker 2: into the story through the adult figures who encourage me
Speaker 2: to read and encourage me to be fabulous and explore makeup,
Speaker 2: as well as a playing basketball, which is something that
Speaker 2: I haven't done and a skill set that I actually
Speaker 2: don't have. And so I find a lot of my
Speaker 2: own father and Derek's father. I find a lot of
Speaker 2: the English teachers who nurtured me in my creative voice,
Speaker 2: and Claudia and bits my mom and my grandma as well.
Speaker 2: So it's been an analcama, but both I would say.
Speaker 1: I love it, and I love how warm. Even though
Speaker 1: Derek encounters some adversity, whether it be homophobia or racism
Speaker 1: or just you know, being an outsider in general, there's
Speaker 1: that warm circle that surrounds him, be it family or
Speaker 1: chosen family. And is that also something that you've had
Speaker 1: growing up and becoming the wonderful person that we see
Speaker 1: in front of us.
Speaker 2: Oh, gosh, you flatter me, yes, I would say, so.
Speaker 2: So I game I came out very early on in
Speaker 2: the seventh grade, and this was in the early aughts.
Speaker 2: I know, I was one of the only great kids
Speaker 2: at school, and overnight I lost my whole friend's circle.
Speaker 2: It was a dark chapter. I had to reinvent myself,
Speaker 2: refine myself, find a new circul circle. And it was
Speaker 2: earth chattering for me as a twelve year old. And
Speaker 2: what saved me from that was being able to throw
Speaker 2: myself into the creative arts. At the time, it was music,
Speaker 2: and it was writing a novel that was processing my career,
Speaker 2: identity and my budding feelings for my best friend, which
Speaker 2: is such a queer like tale as old as time,
Speaker 2: and finding community and a lot of fellow artists as well.
Speaker 2: And I think ever since finding this passion of support,
Speaker 2: I've never turned away. And so you know, even today,
Speaker 2: a lot of my closest friends are writers, actors, musicians
Speaker 2: who to have found their pass of joy and healing
Speaker 2: through art.
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, you have to surround yourself with
Speaker 1: artists because otherwise your world has no color.
Speaker 2: It's true, it may play forth, living and rich. I'm
Speaker 2: actually in New York City right now because we're premiering
Speaker 2: a film at NewFest. The LGBTQ Festival Film Festival in
Speaker 2: New York, and we've made so many good friends just
Speaker 2: through sharing really vulnerable aspects of ourselves. And it's nice
Speaker 2: to be able to skip over this I'll talk of
Speaker 2: things and really get to know somebody through a really
Speaker 2: personal story that they poured themselves into.
Speaker 1: I love that's right, because you're a filmmaker as well.
Speaker 1: Films do you make if you had to put a
Speaker 1: label on it totally?
Speaker 2: You know, that's a good question. I should probably like
Speaker 2: practice what I answer this with. But right now, I
Speaker 2: focus a lot of my stories on queer and trans
Speaker 2: Asian Americans and on soft people who are put in
Speaker 2: hard situations. And so the first short that I came
Speaker 2: up with is called After what Happened at the Library,
Speaker 2: and it's auto fiction, so it's based on my experience
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two when the Proud Boys stormed my
Speaker 2: drive Story Hour in San Lorenzo. I'm fair shouting transphobic
Speaker 2: hate speech and I had to lock myself in the
Speaker 2: back until the authorities arrived. It was national news, international news,
Speaker 2: and it's about the direct aftermath of that at Variety,
Speaker 2: and so that's in the Film Festival circuit right now.
Speaker 2: And then I'm here at Newsaster for Betty Saint Clair,
Speaker 2: which is about a Chinese American drag queen who throws
Speaker 2: a drag performance at a senior citizen center and her
Speaker 2: yay or grandpa is in the audience, and so she
Speaker 2: has to decide whether to go on and and how
Speaker 2: she reveals her true self or not.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, for one thing. For one thing,
Speaker 1: I love your description soft people. Is it soft people
Speaker 1: that go through hard times?
Speaker 2: Is that what you said?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's beautiful. That's that's a tagline right there.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That well, you are one of the the founding queens
Speaker 1: uh your your Uh what am I trying to say?
Speaker 1: Your artistic counter part, Panda Doulce, you are one of
Speaker 1: the founding queens of Drag story Time, right, It's true,
Speaker 1: which is thank you for your service.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Chall So, because of your experience dealing with the Proud
Speaker 1: Boys and Drag Story Time, you definitely have h first
Speaker 1: person experience with triumphing over adversity, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: an integral part of being a queer person in America,
Speaker 1: especially right now. And you're like an authority on in
Speaker 1: that area, I would say.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, I think I think a lot of
Speaker 2: any resilience that I have I owe to my community.
Speaker 2: Which is such a queer answer, right, but it's real
Speaker 2: for a reason. Like after it happens, I was just
Speaker 2: inundated with press and journalists asking me over and over
Speaker 2: to to just relive it in a really expreciating way,
Speaker 2: and like asking for all these details and all the
Speaker 2: It felt like it felt like I was being quartered into,
Speaker 2: being triggered so that they could have that sound by
Speaker 2: it for what they wanted the story to be, right
Speaker 2: as well as just you know, like trauma dumps and
Speaker 2: love letters and death threats and Transphoba hate and and
Speaker 2: so in the aftermath, I couldn't really make any decisions
Speaker 2: in my life, Like my executive functioning was shot. I
Speaker 2: couldn't get out of bed. I couldn't even order food.
Speaker 2: I was just so overwhelmed. And and my friend stepped
Speaker 2: up in a really big way. And queer dreads people
Speaker 2: from across the world, Like I got letters from like
Speaker 2: Norway and Sweeten and people sending me like Tea and
Speaker 2: Crystal and like you know, organizing meal trains and coming
Speaker 2: to cook like larm for me, like Thai food and
Speaker 2: just volunteering to come watch movies with me. And it
Speaker 2: kind of clear or if I had what pride meant
Speaker 2: for me, that it's less about the ostentatious floats and
Speaker 2: it's more about this network of people who we've cultivated together.
Speaker 2: And I thought that was a really beautiful thing. And
Speaker 2: I can't be a lot of help in the future.
Speaker 2: That is it.
Speaker 1: That's it, you know, it's community, like community, chosen family,
Speaker 1: coming together through the hard times, just being there for
Speaker 1: one another. That is what pride is about. You know.
Speaker 1: I do enjoy a good go go boy and some
Speaker 1: skimpy underwear shaken on a float every now and again.
Speaker 1: But at the heart of it, you know, that's really
Speaker 1: what it is. And that's what I keep trying to
Speaker 1: get our cishead counterparts to understand. You know, everyone wants
Speaker 1: to reduce being queer to sex. It's always, well, you know,
Speaker 1: what goes on in the bedroom shouln't be blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. My argument is always, oh,
Speaker 1: so you stop being straight the moment after you come.
Speaker 1: Is that how this works? You know, It's like it's
Speaker 1: it's about community, and it's a lot of people take
Speaker 1: that for granted because they've never really had to overcome anything,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So yours is a powerful
Speaker 1: story and a powerful message. And again I thank you
Speaker 1: for you know, doing what you've done and going through
Speaker 1: what you've gone through, because it's a cornerstone of what
Speaker 1: it means to be LGBTQ in America.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much much. And honestly, I really quod that
Speaker 2: you brought that up, because I don't know. I was
Speaker 2: very critical of a lot of the queer media and
Speaker 2: culture that I have consumers in high school, and this
Speaker 2: was around the time that Prop eight was up, and
Speaker 2: it seems that our flagship issue as a community was
Speaker 2: whether or not we could get married. And I understand
Speaker 2: that's a very personal decision and very important to a
Speaker 2: lot of people. I don't necessarily believe in marriage for myself,
Speaker 2: but often our priorities and our focuses as the community
Speaker 2: are dictated by those at the top, and those at
Speaker 2: the top tend to be to stay white men. And
Speaker 2: you see this reflected in the media that we have.
Speaker 2: You see this reflected in the events that are the
Speaker 2: most resourced for pride, and it doesn't speak for everyone,
Speaker 2: and so I think that's why supporting queer trans literature
Speaker 2: from queer transfers of color is important to just add
Speaker 2: to the tapestry of who we are and to remind
Speaker 2: us that there are our voices that are fighting to
Speaker 2: get a mode to come of the same amount of
Speaker 2: spotlight and that very much deserve it.
Speaker 1: Very much so. And I also appreciate that you bring
Speaker 1: to the table your experiences as an Asian American well
Speaker 1: and as an Asian American period and as an Asian
Speaker 1: American queer person, because those are stories that don't get
Speaker 1: told as often, especially when we talk about, like say, racism,
Speaker 1: the story tends to focus on white versus black because
Speaker 1: you know, for obvious reasons, but there's so much of
Speaker 1: a tapestry under the bipoc umbrella that we don't delve
Speaker 1: into that much. And admittedly, like I try to seek
Speaker 1: out things that are centered around Asian and Asian American stories,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't happen near as much as it should.
Speaker 1: So I was so grateful that your book came into
Speaker 1: my life.
Speaker 2: I guess so much. Yeah, I think that black and
Speaker 2: white paradigms and binaries in general are such a a
Speaker 2: straight constructs because I don't know. I feel like as
Speaker 2: group people like we know that life exists on a
Speaker 2: spectrum and identities exist on a spectrum, and there's more
Speaker 2: to the world than the binaristic polar opposites on that.
Speaker 2: I think that's what I'm kind of beautiful about who
Speaker 2: we are and how we can grow and change and
Speaker 2: experiments and not be so fixated or fixed in our
Speaker 2: conception of self in the world. And I hope that's
Speaker 2: something that I get through, but I think you do.
Speaker 1: Like I love how there are definitely, uh little cultural moments, images, words,
Speaker 1: food that are just woven through the story and it's just,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just part of the experience of Derek.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. One thing I did want to ask you,
Speaker 1: you made a point in the Book of Everyone Who
Speaker 1: Is All that I believe all the characters in the
Speaker 1: book that are LGBTQ saying queer as opposed to gay.
Speaker 1: That felt like a very definitive choice. Why did you
Speaker 1: make that choice?
Speaker 2: I mean, why not? But why?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting because I identify as a millennial, and
Speaker 2: I imagine that the vast majority of people who are
Speaker 2: going to pick up this book, are going to be Jenalfa,
Speaker 2: which is coming from the terms with and identity in
Speaker 2: a different way. And so I wanted to write something
Speaker 2: that was true to me and we'll also speak to
Speaker 2: that generation. And I think the best way to do
Speaker 2: that is to have a human centered story and that's
Speaker 2: what makes things timeless. But are you familiar with the
Speaker 2: phrase like not gay as unhappy, but queer as an
Speaker 2: f you?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes I am.
Speaker 2: Can I say that on here? Can we can we
Speaker 2: do real love?
Speaker 1: You can curse, you can say trow.
Speaker 2: So it's really just like embrace, adopting and embracing that ethos,
Speaker 2: And that's kind of a punk rock thing of, you know,
Speaker 2: one's identity not just being a similationist and acceptable and respectable,
Speaker 2: but fundamentally at odds with everything around you. And that
Speaker 2: is the predicament that Derek finds himself in when he
Speaker 2: is in the small town where he doesn't know anybody.
Speaker 2: He's coming to the terms with himself, coming to an
Speaker 2: understanding of who he is and who he is capable
Speaker 2: of becoming, and boldly decides that he needs to go
Speaker 2: in the direction that is true. And so the reason
Speaker 2: why I chose queer is because I feel like it
Speaker 2: speaks to this theme and that each of the characters
Speaker 2: in their own way embodies this based on their timeline
Speaker 2: or the plot head of album. If that makes sense, it.
Speaker 1: Does, And that definitely does make sense because queer is
Speaker 1: definitely more of an all encompassing term because you know,
Speaker 1: depending on what person is reading this book and where
Speaker 1: they fall on the spectrum, they can identify no matter
Speaker 1: where they are because you use the word queer because
Speaker 1: you know, if you had chosen the word gay, what
Speaker 1: if they're not gay? What if they're by what if that?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. So I did appreciate that choice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably any universe, like you said, I feel you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I dig it. And again it's challenging that damned
Speaker 1: binary which people have.
Speaker 4: Such a problem with.
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny because I feel like binary is okay.
Speaker 2: So I know, I said, straight people created it. It's true,
Speaker 2: and it's not true because because I feel like binaristic
Speaker 2: thinking and black and white thinking comes from like cave
Speaker 2: days where it's like you walk past a cave and
Speaker 2: you look in and it's dark and it looks scary,
Speaker 2: and you're like, am I gonna die there? Or am
Speaker 2: I going to survive in there? And it's not simple
Speaker 2: like do I go in or do I leave? And like, right,
Speaker 2: that is the sort of thinking that we regress to
Speaker 2: when we think about these things sometimes is it good
Speaker 2: that or is it bad? Is that you know, evil
Speaker 2: or whatever? And I feel like a lot of our
Speaker 2: work sometimes so really impact that and to complicate that
Speaker 2: and to get used to the ambiguity of all and
Speaker 2: that might be what leads us to having a sort
Speaker 2: of quiet beast with ourselves.
Speaker 1: You know, that's interesting, Like I never really thought of
Speaker 1: the binary as a defense mechanism. That's interesting. And so
Speaker 1: the irony of that then is that once you can
Speaker 1: embrace the spectrum, there's a level of comfort that comes
Speaker 1: with that, comfort with oneself, comfort with the world around you,
Speaker 1: and then irony again, how threatening that is to people
Speaker 1: that exist in the binary.
Speaker 2: Right, I feel like there's just it's kind of an
Speaker 2: exposure therapy tanking, because it's like the more the white
Speaker 2: spectrum from people that you're introduced to, a white spectrum
Speaker 2: of stories of different walks of life, the more taller
Speaker 2: even I hate that word, it's like, yeah, they can
Speaker 2: tolerate you, but the more open than you are to
Speaker 2: hearing somebody out or just receptive that you might be
Speaker 2: or where they come from. And it's like all, I
Speaker 2: think a lot of xenophobia just comes from just but
Speaker 2: like lack of exposure to and therefore a lack of
Speaker 2: empathy on other people who they haven't met.
Speaker 1: Right, which I mean, that's such a foreign thing to
Speaker 1: me because because I've been lucky, because pretty much my
Speaker 1: entire life, I've been surrounded by so many different kinds
Speaker 1: of people. And like my friend group from grade school
Speaker 1: through college was like the United Colors of Benatton, you know,
Speaker 1: the white ones and the black ones and the brown
Speaker 1: ones and the brown and the Beisian. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Don't people the same way. It's like hard for me
Speaker 2: to relate to that, like all I mean, but yeah.
Speaker 1: But you know, they're it. And it still boggles my
Speaker 1: mind in twenty twenty five that there are some white
Speaker 1: folks walking around that can and have live their entire
Speaker 1: life up to this point surrounded by nothing but white people. Say,
Speaker 1: how is that even possible? Like physically possible? At this point?
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like it's something I've got a
Speaker 2: lot of people aspire to, Like you think about people
Speaker 2: who get richer and what they want to do. They
Speaker 2: want to get their own place that's isolated from everyone else.
Speaker 2: They want to get a private driver with tinted windows
Speaker 2: so they're separated, and you know, people aspire for this
Speaker 2: level of insulation. It's just it's just not a realistic
Speaker 2: way to live, and it's not how I want to
Speaker 2: live my life. I want to be integrated into the
Speaker 2: the textures of the world. So I don't know. I
Speaker 2: think every book is kind of a gateway to invite
Speaker 2: you to be a part of the world in a
Speaker 2: way that makes sense for everyone here here.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. So one of the
Speaker 1: main components of the story is Derek discovers not only
Speaker 1: his queer identity, but his love of drag. And you know,
Speaker 1: you have your your your artistic persona of Panda Dulce.
Speaker 1: How much of a parallel is there between your discovery
Speaker 1: of drag and the embracing of the feminine. How much
Speaker 1: of a parallels that between you and Derek.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's a lot one of the ways
Speaker 2: that I was introduced to drag because I have been
Speaker 2: doing that my whole life. When I was little, I
Speaker 2: would walk around with this little face paint book that
Speaker 2: had a palette of of you know, just different colors,
Speaker 2: primary colors. And in middle school I would just make
Speaker 2: up with my friends at sepembers. We laugh about it.
Speaker 2: And in high school I was in some plays and
Speaker 2: then you know, got really serious about it as an adult.
Speaker 2: But I think the through line throughout all of this
Speaker 2: was a sense of play and wonder and also the
Speaker 2: power in the shop value of being seen and unmistakably
Speaker 2: seen and acknowledge. I feel like as growing up Asian American,
Speaker 2: there's this sort of invisibility that many of us may experience,
Speaker 2: which is being kind of regarded as dismissable or disposable
Speaker 2: or just kind of like an NPC. And this this
Speaker 2: was just a kind of dynamic that I found a
Speaker 2: lot We're always suspected growing up. But I grew up
Speaker 2: in San Francisco, which has a big Asian Recan population,
Speaker 2: but felt very sharply when I went to these because
Speaker 2: first school and was in a predominantly UHDE environment, Like
Speaker 2: it almost felt like I was invisible most of the
Speaker 2: time and then highly visible at other times, like when
Speaker 2: certain works came up and they're like, oh, can you
Speaker 2: speak on behalf of an entire racial group, Kyle, So
Speaker 2: kind of having this lack of control over one's visibility
Speaker 2: and therefore a lack of dignity and a sort of
Speaker 2: objectification of one's experience. I wanted to talk about that
Speaker 2: and sort of play with those ideas in terms of
Speaker 2: how Derek discovers himself and learns to kind of a
Speaker 2: reclaim a sense of control and authorship over that and
Speaker 2: gets to decide for him himself when he gets to
Speaker 2: dazzle and shy and when he has quieter moments with
Speaker 2: his friends. And I don't know, I think about pageant
Speaker 2: was a perfect venue for that, Oh definitely.
Speaker 1: And I love the drag name that he chose from
Speaker 1: so Be Daring. It's just like, you know, message.
Speaker 2: And I don't want to put any spoilers on there,
Speaker 2: but there's definitely a personal reason for that collection as well.
Speaker 1: And I love I love the relationship that Derek has
Speaker 1: with his best friend JJ, and I love how they
Speaker 1: have this thing where this is going to be the
Speaker 1: summer of This is gonna be the summer of X
Speaker 1: y Z and and this particular summer was the summer
Speaker 1: of Yes, and I'm like, we should all have a
Speaker 1: summer of yes and an autumn of yes and a
Speaker 1: winter yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that. I had to restrain myself
Speaker 2: from calling it summer of Yes with an A because
Speaker 2: I was just like that. But I think a lot
Speaker 2: of them came actually because this book was greenlight. Like
Speaker 2: right after the first you're in the pandemic and we
Speaker 2: were all, you know, isolated. It not to throw you
Speaker 2: back into the into that, but I feel like afterwards,
Speaker 2: when everyone started picking their heads out and gathering in
Speaker 2: public again, we all became a little awkward because we've
Speaker 2: been isolated for so long, and I was like, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: and like even some night life at and events, I
Speaker 2: haven't really bounced back from that. And for me, I
Speaker 2: was like, I craved connection, and I craved.
Speaker 3: Mug I'm sorry anyway, I craved connection and then I
Speaker 3: craved community, and I decided that when people asked me
Speaker 3: to do things, I would always say yes, and it's
Speaker 3: led to a lot of great friendships post Panini, and
Speaker 3: I want to do the same for Derek, So I
Speaker 3: love it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for real. I've that time was a moment
Speaker 1: of intense growth for a lot of people, especially folks
Speaker 1: in our community, but it also broke some folks, you know,
Speaker 1: And it's like at the same time, it's it's interesting,
Speaker 1: like at the same time that so many people are
Speaker 1: discovering themselves, so many other people are like finding ways
Speaker 1: to other everyone else. It's that that dichotomy is just
Speaker 1: it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, before I came out, I was pretty homophobic,
Speaker 2: and I remember I would call people a fag and
Speaker 2: I would say, oh, that looks gay, right, And it's
Speaker 2: like contrast provides definition in the sense that you know,
Speaker 2: you know that you are straight because you are not gay,
Speaker 2: and because you are not gay, you are straight. Right,
Speaker 2: So if you call everyone else, that makes you not
Speaker 2: that way for me.
Speaker 1: But that's that's that's how that works.
Speaker 2: I don't know. So I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: insight into homophobia, and that's why I like Republicans are
Speaker 2: shown through psychological tests to respond the most to like
Speaker 2: queer porn. Ah. I don't know, that's the whole can
Speaker 2: of worms that we don't have to go to another
Speaker 2: podcast episode. But but you know, usually when people have transphobia,
Speaker 2: have like harbor homophog use it. It usually points to
Speaker 2: some work that needs to be done that I doubt
Speaker 2: they'll embark on, but hope they do.
Speaker 1: As I'm fond of saying, the squeaky wheel wants to
Speaker 1: get bent over in greeceed. No, but but yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: Like it internalized homophobia, internalized transphobia. It's two pronged one. Obviously,
Speaker 1: it's a product of the narrative that we've been force
Speaker 1: fed our entire lives through religion, full stop period. I
Speaker 1: don't have to give another example, but you know, it's
Speaker 1: also a defense mechanism, especially when you're a kid like
Speaker 1: I get it, and you have to have a certain
Speaker 1: level of introspection to come out on the other side.
Speaker 1: And I think that's where we lose a lot of people,
Speaker 1: because introspection is not a does not appear to be
Speaker 1: a very popular trait amongst people if you go by
Speaker 1: what you see on the.
Speaker 2: Daily right, I think our world, and mediated through capitalism,
Speaker 2: is predicated on distraction and yes speaking, validation, whether it's
Speaker 2: through being beautiful or accomplished, or buying a makeup to
Speaker 2: look a certain way, social media and you know, the
Speaker 2: zombie state of Storling and all. Because I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think critical thinking and self awareness and reflect them
Speaker 2: could threaten the entire fabric, and therefore it's reviled and
Speaker 2: the lion and I don't know. And it's funny that
Speaker 2: books are getting bambacked right now, because what do books
Speaker 2: are encourage but creativity and critical thinking?
Speaker 1: Oh exactly. Knowledge equals power, and that is one thing
Speaker 1: they do not want us to have, is power, because
Speaker 1: and knowledge. Because if we spend so much time down
Speaker 1: here on the ground fighting amongst each other, we won't
Speaker 1: take the time to stop and look up at the
Speaker 1: ones who have like sown the seeds of descent, and
Speaker 1: you know, there's way more of us than there are
Speaker 1: of them, And yeah, it's best to keep us busy.
Speaker 2: That's true. I forget who the theorist is who put
Speaker 2: it this way, but they said, how many of the
Speaker 2: guards do you need for a prison of a billion?
Speaker 2: And they said you only if they are all fighting
Speaker 2: at each other, you only need one. Is that one
Speaker 2: guard is just watching it at all, in bold and
Speaker 2: their job is done for them exactly.
Speaker 1: And that's why I am so glad that we have
Speaker 1: books like yours, because you know, I feel like and
Speaker 1: we've said this on the podcast several times, like four
Speaker 1: and and Fahrenheit for fifty one and The Handmaid's Tale
Speaker 1: and Brave New World. We're supposed to be horrible warnings,
Speaker 1: not a freaking how to guide, you know. It's like,
Speaker 1: are people not reading? I feel like, because yeah, if
Speaker 1: we're not encouraged to read, then we won't encounter these books,
Speaker 1: and then we won't go hmmm, this is like the
Speaker 1: playbook that we're going through. So yeah, it's it's so
Speaker 1: the apocalypse looks so much cooler in the brochure, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean?
Speaker 2: What it's art life too closely. It's a different story,
Speaker 2: you know, my goodness.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's why I'm so glad that we have
Speaker 1: voices like yours.
Speaker 2: Thank careful.
Speaker 1: So here's a question that I always ask my author
Speaker 1: and authorist guests. I'm a huge fan of music and
Speaker 1: using music as a background element when I create, is
Speaker 1: do you have a soundtrack when you write? And if so,
Speaker 1: what was the soundtrack to the writing of this book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so funny that you asked that, because it
Speaker 2: I kind of want on a journey with those. At first,
Speaker 2: I was just listening to low fi beats to study
Speaker 2: YouTube because they just needed something in the background that
Speaker 2: could be at the reading on the sea, but didn't
Speaker 2: have any words because I can't listen to words while
Speaker 2: I write. And then I had a little bit of
Speaker 2: like cafe jazz. Oh yeah, we had in comments, and
Speaker 2: then at one point somebody said, this book feels like
Speaker 2: if Chapel runs Pony a cloud bore a book, and
Speaker 2: I realized that's true, like I just want to keep
Speaker 2: dancing thing. So not really, I had really anonymous music,
Speaker 2: but it kind of created a sort of soft bed
Speaker 2: on which I could build a foundation of a story.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I haven't thought about that too much, but
Speaker 2: I wish there were more instrumentals that were dynamic, like
Speaker 2: film scores and dramatic that I could just listen to
Speaker 2: and repeat, because I feel like that really sparks.
Speaker 1: Some I when I was an undergrad actually let me
Speaker 1: not even pigeonhole that. When I was an art student,
Speaker 1: and also when I was a quote unquote professional artist,
Speaker 1: I think there was like a two year period where
Speaker 1: all I listened to is house music, and film scores.
Speaker 2: Brought to that.
Speaker 1: I mean, watching so many movies, A really good score
Speaker 1: not only supports the film but pulls your focus to, hey,
Speaker 1: this is good music over here. And you know, when
Speaker 1: I was a professional choreographer, I'm always listening for music
Speaker 1: that tells a story that takes you on a journey.
Speaker 1: And film scores where my go to, you know, especially
Speaker 1: the more avant garde gonzo films like the score to
Speaker 1: Fight Club for instance, got me through some stuffs. Get Paul, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love and I also love you know. The element
Speaker 1: in your story about find basically finding your tribe, which
Speaker 1: is an integral part of being a human. And you know,
Speaker 1: no matter where you are on the planet, one of
Speaker 1: the keys to survival is finding your tribe. You know,
Speaker 1: however that may be, whether it's you know, talking to
Speaker 1: your next door neighbor or finding a book club or
Speaker 1: what have you. It's just it's so important. So who
Speaker 1: is your tribe right right now? Who would you say
Speaker 1: is like, this is my tribe.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you're asking that, because going back to the
Speaker 2: black and white thinking and like the drama of being
Speaker 2: a preteen and a team, when you come out or
Speaker 2: you have some sort of big revelatory moments, it can
Speaker 2: often sound like it realizes like the whole world hates me,
Speaker 2: I have no friends. These are like like all or nothing,
Speaker 2: black and white statements, right, And in reality you think
Speaker 2: it's a more complicated than that, Like your parents might
Speaker 2: not accept certain parts of you, and your friends might
Speaker 2: accept all of that, and you know I don't. I'm
Speaker 2: not I'm not prop properly articulating this, but basically, there
Speaker 2: are people in my life. I feel like I can
Speaker 2: go out with an advocate time an sam movie. There
Speaker 2: are people who I can make dinner with and talk
Speaker 2: about a book. There are people who I can think
Speaker 2: up ridiculous drag numbers with and go to drag shows
Speaker 2: and just be a little wild, right, And all of
Speaker 2: these people resonate with a different side or a different
Speaker 2: part of me, And it doesn't necessarily mean that they
Speaker 2: represent the totality of who I am at any given time.
Speaker 2: And so what I wanted to introduce through Derek's journey
Speaker 2: is this idea that he belongs to a basketball team,
Speaker 2: and he he belongs to basketball and feels like he
Speaker 2: belongs in a certain way there, and he feels the
Speaker 2: same way about drag for different reasons, and that's perfectly legitimate.
Speaker 2: And the more that we can introduce the complexity of
Speaker 2: these things. I think the closer to someone finding communities
Speaker 2: that they belong to, and the closer that young readers
Speaker 2: can feel that they belong in this world in many
Speaker 2: ways is for men different reasons.
Speaker 1: Exactly. We contain multitudes.
Speaker 2: It's true, Yeah, that was.
Speaker 1: That was a poignant part of the story. Like Derek
Speaker 1: being in the small town where he's with his grandmother
Speaker 1: and he has his new friends, and he referred to
Speaker 1: himself as it was a heritage Derek, and then there's
Speaker 1: like his back home Derek, and he was afraid that
Speaker 1: those two had to be separate. And you know that's
Speaker 1: as someone who was a queer child who you know
Speaker 1: wasn't you're always afraid of not being accepted, having all
Speaker 1: different parts of you not being accepted, and having a
Speaker 1: compartmentalized And when you can find those people that overlap that,
Speaker 1: then died. I agree. It's so wonderful and.
Speaker 2: Sometimes rare, you know, definitely rare. Yeah, I think just
Speaker 2: the idea that there can be two or more conflicting truths.
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is like an age appropriate analogy,
Speaker 2: but it's this idea that you know you are married
Speaker 2: to somebody and then you meet someone else who you
Speaker 2: have feelings for, and then you think, well, because I
Speaker 2: have feelings for this new person, does this mean that
Speaker 2: I no longer love the person that I'm married to?
Speaker 2: And you know, you can be in love with those
Speaker 2: people at once and share that, and they don't. They're
Speaker 2: not mutually exclusive. Theyn't can't say each other's out or
Speaker 2: they don't have to, right, And so I think the
Speaker 2: same sort of logic can be applied to your interests
Speaker 2: or the people you enjoy hanging with, or your different
Speaker 2: identities like I remember when I first started studying or
Speaker 2: recent sexuality, there's this prevailed dignotion and that I think
Speaker 2: you know what you know what it was. It was
Speaker 2: around the Obama election and numbers. We're going around asking
Speaker 2: people like, so are you going to vote for Obama
Speaker 2: or Hillary? Like would you choose your blackness or your
Speaker 2: femaleness first? And it's like an impossible intersectionality to disentangle, right,
Speaker 2: And it's true that you could be both at once.
Speaker 2: You are both at once simultaneously out at all times.
Speaker 2: They're not at break And I think the more comfortable
Speaker 2: we get with this idea, the more we can embrace
Speaker 2: the world for what it is, which is just a big,
Speaker 2: complicated and messy place.
Speaker 1: Yes, and we have to embrace the mess, which I
Speaker 1: think is the hard part. We want everything to be
Speaker 1: neat and tidy and fit into a box with a
Speaker 1: nice label on it, just one box, and no one
Speaker 1: is that.
Speaker 2: I remember as a kid people would ask me like,
Speaker 2: what do you want to do when you grow up?
Speaker 2: And I was like, I want to be a figure
Speaker 2: skater and a detective and an author and like a
Speaker 2: performer and a director. And they're just like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll share whatever, and like I'm not tooting my own horn,
Speaker 2: but like I do all those things, like I wrote
Speaker 2: a book and I have a film, and I do
Speaker 2: drag and I have a day job, and like I
Speaker 2: never had to choose, and I never had to or
Speaker 2: should have been pressured to do that. It's just like
Speaker 2: we just so I situated to this idea that we
Speaker 2: must be like one sound right of a thing. I
Speaker 2: don't know. We all contained so many stories and so
Speaker 2: many bet dimensions and we should really learn how to that.
Speaker 1: Come on, renaissance woman.
Speaker 5: Yeah right, yeah, I'm I am always.
Speaker 1: Saying no one is ever always anything. You know what
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know that's my clever way of
Speaker 1: using absolutes to say that there are no absolutes. But yeah,
Speaker 1: no one is ever just all one thing. And the people,
Speaker 1: anyone that tells you that they are is either lying
Speaker 1: or trying to tell you something, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like your most rigid Republican who's you know, got the
Speaker 1: three piece suit and is you know anti this that?
Speaker 1: And the third I bet you money there's a guard
Speaker 1: belt under that suit. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: This is proven to be true.
Speaker 1: You know, everyone has layers and there is more to everyone,
Speaker 1: and the more you try to hide things, the more
Speaker 1: that thing comes to the surface. And you know, if
Speaker 1: we would just learn to embrace all the parts of
Speaker 1: ourselves and stop trying to act like you know, this
Speaker 1: is evil, this is bad, the happier will be again.
Speaker 1: Get rid of the binary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm the production surrounding it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it serves no one.
Speaker 2: It just for longger Baye. It just makes those same
Speaker 2: feelings come up later, but with presentment.
Speaker 1: Exact to skip up, you know, skip to the good part.
Speaker 1: So what okay, here we go. If there were a film,
Speaker 1: whether you were to make the film or not about
Speaker 1: the queen Bees of Tybee County? Did you do you
Speaker 1: have a cast in mind in the Bay.
Speaker 2: So, first of all, the book got options and so
Speaker 2: Lambert Production is interested in turning this into a UK episodic,
Speaker 2: which is amazing. I think there are a lot of
Speaker 2: hoops to jump through before it heads a television, but
Speaker 2: it's still nice to be like, oh, what was optioned?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Cast. I love Sandra Oh work. I'm not sure if
Speaker 2: she would be old enough to be a grandmother. I
Speaker 2: love her Michelle Oh, but I feel like Sondra Oh
Speaker 2: could kind of bring some of the comedy of Claudia.
Speaker 1: I can see it.
Speaker 2: I can see that.
Speaker 1: And there's some like fierce young grandmoms out there.
Speaker 2: They're around, they need to be past right cast. And
Speaker 2: for the dad, I feel like Daniel day Kim could
Speaker 2: be Derek's dad Carlo my god, Yes, that's like the
Speaker 2: gravity that you need. That he can bring the drama
Speaker 2: and can be kind of reserved and a little withholding,
Speaker 2: but also.
Speaker 1: And a hot dad never hurts, and a hot dad
Speaker 1: never hurts, and.
Speaker 2: A hot dad, you know, I swear, And so I
Speaker 2: feel like he would play that as well. And in
Speaker 2: terms of the protagonist that does yet to reveal itself,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Some cool up and coming young actor, which reminds me like,
Speaker 1: I hope I'm not being too squaaly. But there's a
Speaker 1: moment where we find out that Derek's father wanted to
Speaker 1: be an actor and basically gave it up because someone said,
Speaker 1: no one wants to see an Asian Romeo. And that
Speaker 1: was so real because you know, I know, it made
Speaker 1: me stop and think about how many Asian leading actors
Speaker 1: I've seen in my life that weren't doing kung fu.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this is not a large enough heart
Speaker 2: of right, not in a cute way like this gets
Speaker 2: to the heart of why I started writing and started
Speaker 2: doing FELL because I realized how profile the media had
Speaker 2: affected my sense of self growing up, because I was
Speaker 2: largely absent from screening when I said, I mean Asian
Speaker 2: American characters, and when I was seeing on the screen,
Speaker 2: I was basically in the butt of a joke or
Speaker 2: a pint of humiliation. I remember how we talked about
Speaker 2: contrast providing definition and like, I am straight, and I
Speaker 2: know I'm straight because I'm not gay, right, I feel
Speaker 2: like the reason Asian Americans often appeared on the screen
Speaker 2: was to provide comic relief or failed masculinity, to reflect
Speaker 2: white masculinity and a better late yep, which is why
Speaker 2: we don't see Asian Americans in leading roles or romantic leads,
Speaker 2: because they're the foil so often and for a long time,
Speaker 2: especially in middle school, I was ashamed of my race,
Speaker 2: and I even once led to my friends in the
Speaker 2: sixth grade and told them that I was half white
Speaker 2: and that, you know, I was adopted and I'm not
Speaker 2: really Asian. And I really reveled when they told me
Speaker 2: I was practically white. And I've said something this, but
Speaker 2: I realized a lot of that shame came from the
Speaker 2: movies I had consumed at a really young age. And
Speaker 2: so right now I want to correct the record, and
Speaker 2: I want to create representations that actually reflect me with pride,
Speaker 2: and that's what I have to do through Queen Bees.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. I'm here for it
Speaker 1: because there's so much rich just richness there to tell.
Speaker 1: And you know, you don't have to go on this
Speaker 1: like historical journey to tell these stories. There's so many,
Speaker 1: like real American stories centered around Asian lives, you know,
Speaker 1: and damn it tell the stories.
Speaker 2: You know, that's true. And there are a lot of
Speaker 2: exact saying these things simply are profitable and like it's
Speaker 2: too risky, and like it won't work in the squadron
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, won't like it. And it's like everything
Speaker 2: everywhere all at once. I supposed to run with my success,
Speaker 2: you know, at the end of I think this is
Speaker 2: just you. But there's a new way of storytellers coming
Speaker 2: through on me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, everywhere, everything everywhere, all at once, parasite, uh crazy
Speaker 1: rich Asians, Like it's starting to make the ups. What's
Speaker 1: the one?
Speaker 2: Ah, oh oh damn, mm hmmm, joy Ryan, that was
Speaker 2: really fun.
Speaker 1: Yes, which I didn't see Beef, which I haven't seen yet.
Speaker 4: No, the one.
Speaker 2: A lot of controversy with that thought. That was a
Speaker 2: great show.
Speaker 1: That's what I heard, the one with.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, why am I not?
Speaker 1: Oh well, yes, that was that was beautiful. That was
Speaker 1: I always said, that's like that's black Panther for Asian folks,
Speaker 1: Like it was the same level of beauty and respect
Speaker 1: and badass, Like I love that film.
Speaker 2: What is that child?
Speaker 1: If I can think of the names, I can think
Speaker 1: of Oh damn, what is that comedian woman comedian? No,
Speaker 1: she was Ali Wong, Thank you, my God.
Speaker 2: Of course it was.
Speaker 1: It was what was it? You're the one that I want?
Speaker 2: Was that? What it was?
Speaker 1: Always be like, maybe thank you my brain was not braining.
Speaker 2: Thank you for going on that journey with.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad we didn't. Yeah, that was I watched
Speaker 1: that every now and again, just just because because it's
Speaker 1: such a fun story. And so, yeah, there are we're
Speaker 1: getting there, but you know, hopefully we'll get to a
Speaker 1: place where folks don't feel like they have to fit
Speaker 1: into a certain box to have Asian representation. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: trying not to say be too white, but.
Speaker 2: I mean, let me say it, because I feel like
Speaker 2: we're on the same page. What it does, which is
Speaker 2: like the whole diverse fide media movement. I feel like
Speaker 2: a lot of times, and I experienced this as an
Speaker 2: artist applying for grancunds, A lot of times they want
Speaker 2: you to put your identity in your culture first, and
Speaker 2: they want you to situate yourself off as a representative
Speaker 2: who's speaking on behalf of this whole thing. There's a
Speaker 2: whole politics into this, but I feel like we're getting
Speaker 2: to a place where we don't need all Asian americond
Speaker 2: stories to be like my grandmama and I'm making dumplings
Speaker 2: by the Majong sets and like, you know, these are
Speaker 2: all about the stories and it's not to be important
Speaker 2: like ye with my name, and it's just like it's
Speaker 2: just like a pulpy love story. That's it, right, Like
Speaker 2: give us dad movies too, And I can't wait for
Speaker 2: the renaissances out of exactly.
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I was so happy with the show
Speaker 1: Fresh off the Boat, because like I went to school
Speaker 1: with that kid Eddie, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: I know that kid, well no, but I'm saying like
Speaker 1: I was, like I went to school in West Philly,
Speaker 1: and West Philly has this wonderfully vibrant Asian community, so
Speaker 1: I some of my first friends were like Vietnamese and Korean.
Speaker 1: So it's like I know that kid. You know, he
Speaker 1: likes hip hop, he likes you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: So I love that those are this like any real person.
Speaker 4: And I think that's what what I get out of
Speaker 4: storytelling is being able to share the people who I
Speaker 4: know exists in real life and have made my life
Speaker 4: colorful and being able to actually see them on screen,
Speaker 4: and especially the people we haven't seen before, like a
Speaker 4: grandpa who is clunkily trans allied to Betty, the protagonists
Speaker 4: of the shor what I did to you know, well, well,
Speaker 4: meeting a punk rock.
Speaker 2: Social worker who is in a hot light house, like
Speaker 2: another feature that I'm working on with my stand machine.
Speaker 2: It's just like it just fills out our world. And
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm just excited for us to continue
Speaker 2: consuming and creating real ass stories because I think we
Speaker 2: need that.
Speaker 1: Real ass stories. Indeed, you know, because you know what
Speaker 1: authenticity you can you can taste it and more to
Speaker 1: the point inauthenticity. You can feel it, and it's that
Speaker 1: whole thing like real recognizes real and the queen Bees
Speaker 1: of Tybee County that's real. I can tell. Like it
Speaker 1: feels like it comes from a real place. There's no artifice.
Speaker 1: It's like even if like you, Kyle, didn't experience this
Speaker 1: particular thing, you're drawing from someone or something that you know,
Speaker 1: you know, like none of it feels like made up
Speaker 1: whole cloth. It comes from a real place. And I
Speaker 1: appreciate that, and I think young readers will get a
Speaker 1: lot out of this book. And it's not just for
Speaker 1: you know, queer folks in fact, like you know, put
Speaker 1: this book in the hands of your sist, white child.
Speaker 1: Damn it, you.
Speaker 2: Were talking about Black Panther. I'm not black, but that
Speaker 2: movie made a chears and started walk on it forever, okay,
Speaker 2: because it was so beautiful to see it, and it's
Speaker 2: something not it's like Blacktopia. It did something for me. Right,
Speaker 2: You don't have to be I thought I do to
Speaker 2: appreciate that and for it to really around out your
Speaker 2: world exactly.
Speaker 1: And you know, shang Chi, even though like the original
Speaker 1: character was a little bit problematic, you know, it's like right,
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, so you center a comic book around
Speaker 1: an Asian person and he's automatically got to be the
Speaker 1: best at kung fu because that's what he does. But
Speaker 1: at least in the move and this and and and
Speaker 1: this is a testament to the actor. He felt like
Speaker 1: he did not feel like a caricature. Well right, exactly, dignity,
Speaker 1: you know, coming from a real place, not asking for
Speaker 1: too much.
Speaker 2: I don't think.
Speaker 1: Well, Kyle Casey Chow, this has been fabulous.
Speaker 2: I could sit and talk with you all day. It up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again I love, love, love love your book,
Speaker 1: and I cannot recommend it highly enough. It's a delightful story.
Speaker 1: It's an easy read. You get in, you get enveloped
Speaker 1: and engrossed in the story so easily. And like I said,
Speaker 1: you know, every time I picked it up, Bam, fifty
Speaker 1: pages done went by.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'll say it to you, it's like kind
Speaker 2: of betrayed, just like queer joy gay hug, big gay hug.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I love it. Okay, So if we wanted
Speaker 1: to learn more about you and your goings on, and
Speaker 1: more important, most importantly, where to buy the book, where
Speaker 1: would we go?
Speaker 2: Well, here's the book catch. I'm just kidding. You can
Speaker 2: buy my book anywhere books are sold, so Amazon Bookshop,
Speaker 2: Barnes and Noble, or a beloved local indie bookstore. And
Speaker 2: you can find more about me at kylecaseychu dot com
Speaker 2: or on Instagram at at Panda Dulce Fabulous.
Speaker 1: And I will make sure to include all of that
Speaker 1: information in the notes to this episode, because we should
Speaker 1: all know more about you and what you do because
Speaker 1: you're fascinating period. Oh likewise, that's right, and so I
Speaker 1: can't wait to have you back on the show. To
Speaker 1: talk about the series that comes from it. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, So let's do it, I mean, or
Speaker 1: whatever the hell else you're doing next, because you know,
Speaker 1: I see nothing but great things for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's a second book coming out, a sequel
Speaker 2: to Queen bee Us really. Yeah. It's about a celebrity
Speaker 2: drag queen and goes missing and Derek and JJ have
Speaker 2: to find her work. I know it's not cool. And
Speaker 2: then there's a picture book about drag legend Jose Sorry,
Speaker 2: who founded the Imperial Court System which is a network
Speaker 2: drag Royalty who raised money for LGBG causes. So I
Speaker 2: think both are coming out next year or some time.
Speaker 2: That's okay, It's a lot.
Speaker 1: I'm down. Oh I'm really looking forward to the sequel.
Speaker 1: By the way, so Gila, I'm hooked. Well, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us at the Full Circle table
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to chat again.
Speaker 2: Charles, thank you and you have a wonderful day too.
Speaker 1: Full Circle is a Never Skurred Productions podcast hosted by
Speaker 1: Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, produced and edited by
Speaker 1: Never Scurred Executive Produced by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal.
Speaker 1: Our theme in music is by the jingle Mary's All Names, pictures, music, audio,
Speaker 1: and video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of
Speaker 1: their respective copyright holders.