Speaker 1: What is up everybody? Welcome back to Hobby Hotline. We
are on episode three seventy nine, here creeping up on
four hundred. Pretty crazy, you know, one of the only shows,
I think, in the industry, with this many voices, that
has had this type of longevity. I am here with
one of the you know, I would say, one of
the innovators, one of the original innovators here in the hobby,
the man, the myth, the legend. We have doctor Jim Beckett.
Doctor Beckett, how you doing today?
Speaker 2: I thought you were gonna do Victor, real innovator there
as well, and diving deep into rookie cards. But yes,
I've done a little bit of everything, Adam, thanks for
the kind words.
Speaker 1: Absolutely thank you. And then we have another, you know,
I guess, another man, myth, the legend, one of the
more knowledgeable people here in this industry, talking about rookie cards,
the definitions of rookie cards. We got Victor true r
sees Victor. How you doing today as well?
Speaker 3: I'm doing good man, But don't tell nobody, They'll never
believe you.
Speaker 2: They.
Speaker 1: I want to say hello to everybody in the chat.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 1: We've got Mad City Brew always always a staple here
in the chat. We got foul ball, another staple, even
though maybe a little bit of a maybe likes to
have fun in the chat a little bit there. We
got able from Vegas. You know a ton of people. So,
like I said at the beginning of the shows, I
always like to see where everybody is watching the show from.
So if you are watching the show, you know on
YouTube or I think it's on YouTube. I think we're
only on YouTube here on the four Collectors channel, make
sure you drop where you're watching the show from. I'm
definitely interested to see all over the world. I know
we've gone global a couple of times. We had people overseas,
we got people all over the United States. We have
some great topics here to talk about. To run through
them quick quickly before we get into them. We're gonna
be talking about the World Baseball Classic and some of
the other international competitions that have been going on over
the past few months, and then some that are coming
up in the next few months, and maybe how that's
affecting the hobby. We also have a big announcement from
TOPS this past week where they said they're going to
be including college basketball players into Bowman with NBA players
for the first time. We're going to see a fully
licensed product there. And then the hot topic that really
has kind of taken over the social media and taken
over a lot of what's going on on, you know,
all the platforms here, the interesting news that's come out
about whatnot. We're going to cover that in the second
half of the show. So first we're gonna go World
Baseball Classic Venezuela.
Speaker 2: They win.
Speaker 1: This is now. It makes Ronald Leucunya one of only
three players Buster Posey and Shoheo Tani and now Ronald
Lacunya with a World Series win and a World Baseball
Classic win. So, you know, Ronald phenomenal player. Very exciting
for them. Unfortunately, they did beat the United States. You know, Victor,
I'll ask you this first. Did you watch the World
Baseball Classic? What were your thoughts? How did you feel
about the tournament as a whole?
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 3: I did watch. I'm a big fan of the WBC.
Although it's getting harder and harder with all the streaming
different streaming services available to us. To watch the tournament
is quite the task, But I did, I did watch it,
did enjoy it. One of my favorite tournaments to watch.
My takeaways on the whole thing is really to me,
Poohos made a legitimate case for him being a manager
in the MLB at some point in the near future.
De Rosa probably did not. There's a lot of things
that I noticed with de Rosa's management style, a lot
of things on social media being murmured. Of course, you
can get away with a lot of things when you win,
but when you lose, people tend to put you under
the microscope. Right, And this is the second tournament that
the US lost three to two. Was the final score
kind of a stinger that this one, This one kind
of hurt. And I don't know about you guys, but
that quarter final matchup between the US and the Dominican Republic,
that final strike was not Yeah, it was not a strike.
Speaker 1: And those are yeah, they would have they would have
been tapping the helmet there probably, Yeah, they would have
one of the the ABS reviews on that one. If
if if we were, you know, playing in the majors. Yeah,
it was I mean Dominican Republic going into that tournament,
I thought was gonna win. Like if you look at
that roster, it's like it's like if you were playing
like MVP Baseball. I don't know if anybody in the
chat is, you know, old enough to have played MVP
Baseball on like the PlayStation, but like it's like if
you turn off all the trade the trade sliders, and
you trade all the best players to your team and
then you sign them and then you go sixty one,
sixty two and zero.
Speaker 2: It was like that.
Speaker 1: It seemed like that for the Dominican Republic. You know,
same same kind of question to you, doctor Jim, what
was your thoughts on the tournament as a whole? And
you know, we saw some of the effects of certain
players within the within sports cards, some players that maybe
weren't as expected. But like, do you think that these
international tournaments they obviously do an effect on some of
these cards, But do you think there is a future
for international terms to have more of a mainstay when
it comes to pricing here in the sports card industry.
Speaker 2: I think it's terrific. You know, it's showing the best
players in the sport, in Major League Baseball distributed out
presumably to their countries of origin. And even though North
American baseball is the best in the world, the best
players are not necessarily from America, and so Americans sometimes
can be overconfident. The other problem I have, even though
you know, March Madness is the quint essential one and
done tournament, but baseball has always been a series game.
So you don't have one pitcher that could dominate, You've
got to you know. So it to me, that's that's trumble. Well,
you some team could get on a roll one pitcher
or two pitchers or something like that. So but I'm
all for it, and I'd like to see additional for it.
In fact, some of the other sports have all star
games and other kinds of competitions that divide out by nation.
So I think that's that's good. It's also very ironic
that we were beaten by Venezuela, right right, Yeah, yeah,
we don't. We beat them last fall, right, and now
they're they're taking it back on us as well as Italy,
which I was kind of surprised about that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Italy was another team that I they were you know,
they had they had Jack hagleon as guy, you know,
Florida guy that I am a I am a fan
of place for the Royals. He was on that team.
I mean Italy. The teams were very good this year,
and I think that is one thing that is it
seemed like all the teams had you know, like three,
four or five players that were all like very solid.
And you know, this is something that I think we've
seen a little bit of a shift on. I mean,
doctor Beckett, I'll ask you this question. Do you think
we have seen sort of a shift in the international competitions?
Like it feels like for a while, maybe way back
in the day, people really took the international competition seriously,
and then you kind of get into the early two
thousands and you have that like USA basketball team that
got like third place at the Olympics, and it seemed
like people weren't taking the international competition seriously. So do
you think that that is something that we will continue
to see going forward with like people wanting to play
for their you know, play for their nations and take
it a lot more seriously.
Speaker 2: Well, number, like I said ninety two, the Dream Team
in basketball that jump started the programs all over the
world to get gets get better in basketball to compete
with the USA, and they have increasingly baseball would be
the same thing. In this particular tournament and as well
as the last one, it's just like the famous statement
within the hobby. So you're saying, there's a chance, right,
So you can't just bet on the odds on favorite
of the USA. Now, two times in a row, we've
come up short, honorably short. But still we're as Americans
were used to winning, and you've got to win out
on the field. You can't win with pr You've got
to you got to have the best pitching, the best hitting,
the best defense. And many of the great players in
Major League Baseball are from other countries. Those other those
other lineups were stacked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, totally agree. And I want to bring up
this other graphic here that I think is relevant for cards.
So the top top sold a tops now set of
all of the teams in the in the tournament in
the World Baseball Classic, Japan obviously on top there. People
want to get that Otani card, they want to get
any of the rare inserts, the rare autographs that potentially
could come from the Otani card. Then Team USA there
in second with twenty thousand total orders, Dominican Republic at
four thousand, and then it kind of rounds out with Venezuela,
Puerto Rico, and Korea kind of all around one thousand,
So Victor, do you think that the do you think
that cards like this have a bit more of staying
power in the industry. And I mean this is maybe
something that as someone who is really into rookie cards,
you know, somebody like me, I am really into numbered
rookie cards that I think are more scarce. So like
with there being thirty four thousand, I don't know if
we're gonna get any rookies necessarily in there. But what
were your thoughts, I don't know, did you see these sets,
like what did you have any kind of thoughts on
the overall process of you know, Tops coming out with
these cards?
Speaker 3: I did, and I enjoy them. This to me is
more of like a commemorative set. I never really have
gotten in commemorative sets, but I do enjoy like the
tops Now where they actually highlight a moment that happened,
a big moment. That's the kind of tops now stuff
I really enjoy and appreciate. But long term, I don't know,
because nobody's interpretation of print runs. It's like, you know,
some people think that two hundred is too many, other
people think that ten thousand is here. You know, thirty
four thousand sets. I mean, that's that's a lot so right.
As far as long term sustainability, I don't think there's
anything there as far as value, But I don't think
that's what these sets are made for. I think this
is more for the commemorative collector type situation, and for
those reasons, I do think they have stained power. I
do remember when the Cubs won the twenty sixteen World Series.
I have a couple of commemorative sets from that and
I love I love those sets. I love looking at
them and looking at reading the highlights of what happened
during that World Series. And it's not for everybody, but
it is for some right.
Speaker 1: And you know, the interesting thing here with tops with
tops Now is I think it's either the third or
fourth highest tops Now card is actually the Jack Hughes
gold medal winning gold medal winning card. It hockey has not,
you know, it is it's a very cult like following here.
In sports cards, I would say that they're very die hard,
but the number of them is not as high as
maybe other sports. But we did see, you know, with
this USA card that you know, people really wanted that one.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Granted there were also different fractors, and I think they
mentioned that there was going to be a super fractor
involved with that one as well. So overall, I really
liked the World Baseball Classic. I think it's you know,
I think doctor Beckett's correct that like baseball is, you know,
we've gotten to the point where it's it's one hundred
and sixty two games, it's the longest of.
Speaker 2: All of the sports.
Speaker 1: And then each series is you know, seven games, five games,
depending on what round you're in. But one thing that
I did see, one thing that I did see was
that the World Baseball Classic championship had more individual viewers
than all seven games of the NBA Finals. So I
don't know if there is something there with these single
game tournaments for baseball or because you know, it's the
same thing with football. It's like it's these single game tournaments.
March Madness is another example. I guess maybe there's a
place for both of them. But again, I would like
to see maybe baseball continue with this trend of some
sort of single game tournament, maybe within the season or
something where there's a little bit more at stake, because
I think, you know, the NBA has tried to do
that with the NBA Cup. I don't know if it's
as I don't know if it's hit as well as
they expected, but I think you know, the the numbers
don't lie here when we're talking about amount of viewers
that are, you know, watching these games, and so you know,
doctor Jim, I'll ask you this this last question before
we move on topics. Any you know, any final thoughts
about any of the international tournaments, whether it's the Olympics
or World World Baseball Classic or the World Cup coming up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't think we doubt well, it's
let me phrase this properly. I think the betting odds
would be with the USA if it were a seven
game series, but it's not, and that's why you've got
a lot riding on one game, and the eyeballs are
focused on that so that they're not going to change that.
What I'm curious about is that when when tops Now
puts out something, the formula for direct consumer is to
put out products that have parallels, inserts, redemptions, autographs that
are that are tough to get. So that's you might
get the base card, but you might get that and
the chance. But what I'm curious about is since every
one of these different countries had a different different number
of sets that were produced. Does that make it easier
to get the good stuff for Venezuela? Then you've got
a one in thirty four thousand chants with Japan and
a one in fourteen hundred chance for Venezuela. Is that
does that kick in it get parallels? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I guess it also depends on you know, they mentioned
that certain players were going to be getting them. I
don't know if they're doing like if, for example, Japan
is going to have more parallels because there was more orders,
or if you know, like you said, if if there's
only number to five, if there's only going to be
number to five for Japan, and then if it's easier
for you know, Dominican Republic, which again I think that
that Dominican Republic team is gonna you know, it's it's
unfortunate that they had to go up against maybe one
of the best pictures of all time so far with
Paul Skans, like at least at least one of the
best pictures right now, because I think if they had
gone up against any of the other USA pitchers, I'm
not sure how close it really would have been you know,
also the picture for Detroit unfortunately didn't want to play
in any other games after. I thought that was kind
of unfortunate a little bit. I don't know it was
I thought the USA had a good shot if they
had their best players on the field, and you know,
I think things could have gone a different way easily,
like they could have lost if they lost the Dominican Republic.
That would have surprised me. And you know, same question
to you victory. Any final thoughts here on this topic
before we move on to what we got up next.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a great point about school. I can
probably go on a mini brant about him. I'm there,
but I'm not going to.
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 3: I was interested in you know, who who stood out
in the in the in the tournament, and there's so
many amazing players, so many good performers. But shout out
to Mike cal Garcia, third baseman for Kansas City Royals,
who ended up winning MVP of the World Baseball Classic,
which is pretty impressive. Like I said, with the amount
of people that the caliber of players that were in there,
but when you look at his numbers throughout the tournament,
it was pretty impressive. Slight his rookie years twenty twenty three,
slight little bump in his stuff. I was looking at
at his stuff moments ago, but definitely a player to
perhaps keep an eye up. This season could be a
breakout season for him.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And so we're actually going to be moving from one
single game tournament here to the next one. We have
got some news right before the start of the NCAA tournament.
And I mean, for first, before we get into the news,
I'll ask you guys, uh, are you like so doctor Jim,
are you or doctor Beckett? Are you a are you
are you a March Madness fan? Or how's your bracket doing?
Like that's you know, that's kind of how how how's
the bracket doing? To start off the start off the topic.
Speaker 2: SM you lost before they got in the tournament. That's
my team. Uh felt horrible. I watched that game. That
doesn't mean I'm quitting because I love to watch the games,
but yeah, I don't really fill out the bracket. It's
it's too disappointing for me. I like, I like for
the favorites to win and I like to see good basket. Yeah,
but it's right, it's just a remarkable. Again, they they
crush it into two weeks. I think it's terrific. It's
one of the highlights of the sports calendar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Victor.
Speaker 2: How about you? Are you? Are you?
Speaker 1: Is your bracket busted? Or or do you do you?
Do you even do bractic? I know, like doctor Beckett said,
he doesn't do brackets. How's your bracket looking if you
got one?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't do brackets.
Speaker 2: I don't really.
Speaker 3: I don't really get into college basketball, to be honest
with you too. Maybe like the final eight is when
I really start paying attention. I just always been more
of a of an NBA pro guy than in college.
But I do enjoy watching them final games get pretty good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I and maybe the opposite. I am
a college guy. I love College football is maybe my
favorite sport, and then and then college basketball is probably
a close second or third, you know, any of the
you know, when thee whenever a Boston team's doing well,
that's my favorite sport at the time. So like you know,
the Celtics right now, they're they're doing pretty well, so
I'm excited for them. I mean, I've got Michigan in
my one bracket that I took kind of seriously. So
you know, they play I think at noon today, so
we'll see how they do. I mean, as long as
they can keep kind of marching on through the tournament
no pun intended here with March madness. But as long
as they can keep going throughout the tournament, you know
they'll they'll be pretty good. But like I said, so
before the before the tournament started, TOPS actually announced that
they were going to include, for the first time ever,
there were going to be men's and women's college players
in with NBA players in a fully licensed Bowman product. Now,
one thing that somebody pointed out is that this is
just Bowman, not Bowman Chrome. So I think that means
we're getting a Bowman and a Bowman Chrome product potentially,
because in other nil Bowman products there was just Bowman Chrome,
I believe, so there was there was paper and chrome
versions of these cards. But I guess we'll see. So,
you know, Victor, I'll ask you this first. You know,
the combination of the NBA players with the college players,
it's obviously a little bit different than it is for
baseball when it comes to their Bowman products. So what
were your initial thoughts when you saw this news come
across the timeline.
Speaker 3: Not a fan, not a fan, Adam. To be honest
with you, we're combining a collegiate product with a pro product,
and I think there is I've always been a big
advocate for collegiate product. I think there is a segment
of the hobby that can really enjoy that type of product,
and I thought it was a great move to produce
that kind of product. But now we're we've got the
collegiate men, collegiate women mixed with the pro rookies and such,
and it's just to me, it's it's kind of similar
to the Bowman baseball product. It's kind of confusing because
they come out with a Bowman product that has like
a Bowman Chrome insert subset included, and then they come
out with a regular Bowman Chrome product that looks almost
identical to the insert set. So a lot of times
it's really really confusing to tell what those Bowman Chrome
cards came out, What product did they come out of?
And I don't know, it seems like they're going to
continue doing that here with now. So now if they
come out with Bowman, you which I'm sure they will,
you know, those first Bowman's you know, is it did
it amount of draft pick Bowman draft Picks or did
it come out of this product here? It's gonna be
very hard to tell, so really confusing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, doctor Becket, I'll ask you kind
of the same question. What were your you know, what
were your initial thoughts when you saw this news first
come out this week?
Speaker 2: Well, uh, Fanatics is still in a battle with Panini
for the hearts and minds of collector and to grab
off not perhaps not all women, uh, but to grab
to put women in this product is an attempt to
be more inclusive. And I think it's a it's a
bold move. It is confusing victory. You're totally right, but
it's it's it's the kind of ten xing kind of
a move of being more inclusive in the hobby. But
my question is if I look at the box, where
are the women, the women in the product? Where are they?
Why are they not on the on the on the
on the box, on the front of the box. Here, Yeah,
there is one, Well, she needs to wear her hair out.
Speaker 1: It looks like Madison Booker, which I know that there
are a couple players who are pretty like you know,
Juju Walkins, who I think might be hurt right now.
For USC, I would have probably liked to see her
on the cover. I mean, I know she I think
she's hurt, so I don't think she's playing. And then
I know Iowa State has another player. I forget her
name off the top of my head, but it's probably
going to be a top pick when she comes out
to you know, the WNBA.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I kind of agree with both
of you guys from the confusing standpoint. I think it's
I guess it's cool that they're including both of these,
But in my opinion, I thought the Bowman products really
stood out to me because it was a product that
was coming out while the players were still in school,
and to me, that really made the first Bowmans actually
feel a little bit more important, like the you know,
the Caitlin Clark or the Page Becker's or you know
Cooper Flag for example, any of these players that were
getting their first Bowmans. It was mirroring baseball in a way,
but also much different because you know, they're not wearing
their pro uniforms. So I don't know, I have mixed
feelings about this for sure, Like I think it's cool
that they're including these players altogether in the product. I
think it, you know, like doctor Becker was saying, it's
very it's much more inclusive. I think if you're adding
them in with NBA players, I think that's very cool.
But I do think I personally like the college specific products,
especially the way that TOPS is doing them now, because
I think that we've seen a big shift in what
college products have become, like, you know, going back to
twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, maybe even twenty twenty. You know,
Zion for example, he didn't get a college licensed duke
card until he was drafted, So once the players off
the team, some of the excitement, in my opinion, kind
of goes away. So I don't know, I liked that
way they were doing it with the players that were
in school. You know, Victor, I'll ask you that question.
Do you think that really makes that much of a
difference between like when if the cards are coming out
when the player is at school versus I guess I
don't know when this was going to come out, but
for some of these players, they're not going to be
playing on their college team when the product comes out.
Do you think that makes a difference.
Speaker 3: It makes a difference with today's nil These kids can
probably jump two three teams before they even before the
cards even come out, right, but it can perhaps, Adam,
I'm not one hundred percent sure.
Speaker 2: If I can speak for Victor. I mean, this really
messes up Victor's world, you know, in terms of what's
the true rookie car not I'm very sympathetic. Victor puts
in so much hard work as I did back in
the day of coming up with some guidelines. But the
car companies don't go by the guideline r They just
do what they want to do and doing this product
and then doing a chrome version. It's not a cash
grab in one sense, it's good business. They're gonna make money.
But then Victor and other people are going to try
to figure out what which are the best ones, and
the market will dictate. We already know that almost always
chrome is better than paper, and we know for the
same card, we always know that serial number is better
than base, you know, non serial number of the base
of the same card, and so there'll be a hierarchy.
But from one product to a next Victor, good luck,
good luck.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's going to be on this product.
And this is what I don't like about when they
when they advertise, they don't show the back of the card.
But I'm assuming now this product, the collegiate players are
going to have a collegiate license instead of an NBA
League license in the back, and that's a differentiator for
me as far as figuring aro out what's what. And unfortunately, yeah,
the rome the chrome stuff carries more weight. But at
the end of the day, really what the hobby is
really going to want is they autograph low serial number
stuff and the rest right seems to like not matter.
And unfortunately, hopefully we can get that ship to churn someday.
Speaker 2: Adam.
Speaker 3: Before we move on to the next topic, I'd like
to catch up with the with the chat. They got
some some good stuff in there. Let's let's catch up
with the chat if we can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, so we got Able. I think Able in
Vegas had a good one. When will Fanatics introduce the
tournament patches to Bowman basketball now? I do think that
they have done some sort of NCAA patch in some
sort of tops now card that's coming out. I might
be potentially mistaken about that. I know that they have
cards for the tournament, which I think again, both Tops
Now gives I think the opportunity for TOPS to come
out with you know, like players at high Point for example,
like they you know, that was one of the upsets
from this past couple of days that I think they
beat Wisconsin potentially, So you get you're gonna be able
to include players who maybe aren't going to be in
that Bowman set. And I don't know, I know, I
know that TOPS has done it where if you're in
the Tops Now set, you then get included in the
next Bowman set. They've done that in the past. I
don't I guess I don't know how they're going to
do it this time. But but either way, then we
have Bob. I'm not a fan of mixed NBA in college.
I think, yeah, it'll give Victor, It'll give Victor ahead.
I kind of like what doctor Beckett was said with
with just the amount of the amount of different types
of rookie cards like pre rookie cards and Bowman Next
and all of these things. I think, you know, we're
getting into a point where maybe things are getting a
little bit too confusing for an average person who wants
to come in and just you know, collect cards, like
if they want to just collect the best card, it's
almost it's almost a conversation of like how much do
you want to spend and like where do you think
the best card is? Because it really, it almost is
becoming a little bit subjective. I mean, you know, Victor,
I'll keep going through the comments here if you want
to talk about, you know, the subjectiveness that it seems
like with rookie cards nowadays. Doesn't I don't think it's
good for the hobby in my opinion, but what's good
and what's bad is kind of I know, you know
that's subjective. But for for you, like as a rookie
card guy, do you like that they are sort of
muddying the water here with all these different types of
rookie cards and pre rookie cards.
Speaker 3: I'll be honest with you, Adam, the longer and more
and more I'm digging into this sort of thing, I
don't think it's the manufacturer's muddying it as much as
the hobbyist muddying it. The new rules were set in
place around two thousand and five two thousand and six,
and in hindsight, what they established makes really good sense.
The problem is is that hobbyists don't want to align
themselves with that concept. And I think the more and
more I dig into this, the more and more I
start to believe that's more the issue, because what they
established makes sense if you take the time to learn it.
Now it is a little you know, it makes you
scratch your head, but if you take your time to
learn what's been established, it actually makes sense. It's just
there's there was a long void of time there where
nobody was teaching it, nobody was understanding it, so everybody
just made up their own interpretation of what a rookie
card is. And I think that's where the water's getting
muddied the most. I do want to circle back to
what Abel was saying with his question about the debut
patch made me want to look up what Bowman offers.
As far as chase, they are showing three tiers of autographs.
There is a gold which is obviously the superfractor, and
then there's a red and a blue autograph version. As
far as case hits are concerned, there is an anime
type card set, insert set, and then garbage Pail Kids
is also going to be included as a case hit.
So I just wanted to share that no debut patches
in this product.
Speaker 2: But what Fanatics has done subtly, I think subtly is
it by if they were going to put debut patches,
they'd have to be redemptions in the twenty twenty six
Baseball product with their seventy five best A lot of
those best cards are redemptions. What they've single handedly done
is make redemptions cool again, not kicked off that you
got a redemption. Especially if if twenty twenty six had
some redemption cards in there for these for these debut patches,
people would do backflips. They would say, Oh, it's a redemption,
I've got to send in. They would be excited.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I think redemptions are back with a vengeance, and
that allows the set to live and breathe and to
be even like we're saying more inclusive of what's going
on right now. Like I said, the high point guys,
these other you know, if some of this stuff may
hit and we're right in the beginning of March Madness now,
but there're gonna be some other breakout stars.
Speaker 1: Right yep, exactly. And I think unfortunately de Bonsta, who
was one of the BYU players. I think BYU lost,
so it may be similar to like a John Morant
when he played I forget what college he played for,
but I think he was wanted done in the NCAA tournament.
I think also Ben Simmons was another one that was
kind of a high draft pick that was one of
the best players and then gets wanted done in the
in the tournament. So yeah, I think the the debut
patches would be pretty cool. Like I could see them
doing that maybe next year, but I do think I
don't know, I think that there's too many teams and
there's too many random players maybe potentially to to do
that unfortunately, but I think some sort of patch would
be you know, would be very cool. And like you said,
doctor Beckett, it probably it would have to be a
redemption because they wouldn't be able to have the product
and then because if they're promoting the product assume assuming
that probably means it's gonna be coming out fairly soon,
but they wouldn't be able to do the tournament and
then be able to put those patches in there. They
would have to be you know, they would have to
be redemptions.
Speaker 2: Obviously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of a lot of a lot of
concern in the a lot of concern in the chapter
Victor and his channel here, so shout out, shout out
to the shout out to the comments. You know, we
got uh, we got, We've got Orlando, we got UH.
Speaker 2: So any any go ahead needs more controversy, Victor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I'm going to put the I'm gonna
put the link in the chat, which admittedly not something
I necessarily always do, uh, you know, but we have
a topic here that I think I would be interested
to see if anybody wants to call in and kind
of give their thoughts on this topic. We are going
to be getting into sort of the big news from
this past week, which was what not UH is facing
some legal issues over potential uh you know, back end
stuff that they were they were doing with breaking and repacking.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So, Victor, what were your kind of initial thoughts here
for UH when you saw this news? Was it surprising
to you? Were you not surprised? What were kind of
what were your thoughts on it?
Speaker 3: I'm just going to give you an initial thought and
then I want to hear I want to hear more
of what doctor Beckett has to say about it. But
I will say this, I am I've never dealt with
whatnot in any capacity, either buying or selling. I don't
get into breaks, so to me, I really can't speak
on what is happening inside of whatnot because I don't know.
But with that said, I'll pass it to Gym and
then I'll come back and give some remarks.
Speaker 2: I think each of these very large players in the
industry has a demographic, you know. I think the demographic
for Whatnot probably skews a little bit younger, and so
that's what you're dealing with. Where whereas collectors, Fanatics, these others,
they also have their ecosystems, their worlds that they want
to keep the collectors in. They want a one stop shop.
Once you come into Fanatics, collect or whatever, there's going
to be an adjacent offering of you know, They've got
all these different things, send you to their breakers, send
you to their approved shops, whatever, but mainly to keep
you spending money with them. And frankly, it might be
the whatnock Not is maybe doing a better job of that.
If you read the complaints that they pulled people in
and they are enticing them with kind of quasi or
legit gambling stuff. Not expressly illegal, but some of these
younger people, perhaps collectors and are are are falling into
a trap of getting pulled in sucked in. Now Here's
the big issue here is that whatnot the big company
really smart? They have forced arbitration, which is not like
going to court. You know, I used to be used
to do litigation, consulting and testifying in court as an
expert witness, and I had some arbitrations there. They're very
different than being in court in terms of the discovery
and the depositions and the affidavits and the amount of
time you have to make your case. So these are
going to be complicated cases, some of the ones I've
been involved with of things like that. The attorney that
represents the plaintiffs is a key decision. I've been in
situations where attorney was not very good, not really up
to speed. This is amazing. You have the pre eminent
attorney in the industry in our hobby all less go
representing these fifteen complainants. You know, they'd be like plaintiffs,
and so he already knows and is passionately in favor
of what's good for this hobby, and so this can
be the tip of the Iceberg, because this isn't just
some attorney out there that you know that we haven't
heard about. This is a guy we've tracked with for
years who's opined on all these different cases and whatnot.
Is in a tough position because if they say, you know,
we yeah, we we're just going to quietly give each
of these persons that Paul is representing, these fifteen we're
going to give me five thousand dollars to go away, Well,
that will spread like wildfire all kinds of other people.
So they're gonna have trouble giving money unless it is
so super confidential, and even giving money to Paul, who
is worth getting something out of this. But Paul's reputation,
if he handles this right, he's just gonna go on
the Mount Rushmore if he's the if he's the protector
of the of the of the average collector who was
who was pulled into something in over his head. But
I think, I think, I think whatnot. It's gonna take
this very seriously. They're gonna close the barn door, They're
gonna they're gonna resolve some of the non financial complaints.
They're gonna do that, probably with great fanfare. But I
don't think they're gonna if they offer even one hundred dollars.
There's thousands of people that have participated whatnot they're gonna say,
I want a hundred bucks. But if and if, and
some are can say I want one hundred thousand dollars.
You know when Paul was when I heard him interviewed
on something, there are people that have been hurt to
the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Now, there's
some level of personal responsibility a person has, but and
an arbitration hearing is not like a judge in a
jury where there's sympathies. It's more about the law, what
did you do? And many of these arbitrators are known
for being a little bit establishment leading, in other words,
siding with the big company, and so it'll be an
uphill struggle. But I think they're in good hands with Paul.
I think this is something that will be settled. I
don't think it's going to go to the arbitration, because
if you went to the arbitration and you lost, then
all of a sudden, there's going to be this huge
line of people say I want some of that, But
they might give the only way they could do it,
as I'm just thinking out loud here, is that they
could They could not give cash, but they could give
some what not bucks, you know, some kind of thing
that you know what We're we're not admitting we did
anything wrong, and we're not going to be doing this anymore.
But for your for bringing this to attention, we're going
to give you a credit against future business with US
of reduced fees on something you would do. But they're
in a pickle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And I mean I think foul Ball
actually makes a good point here. Live shopping or live
selling is the future. I definitely, I totally agree with that.
And I think I think when you are a company
like Whatnot and you have grown to this massive, you know,
this massive size in you know, only like four or
five years, Like I'm sure that they were probably around
before pre pandemic or you know, but they are, if
not the biggest, one of the biggest live selling you know,
collectibles platforms. There is so like you know, also the
problem with some of the sellers doing what is alleged
if what Not did know that they were doing that,
that's obviously an issue. But with the amount of sellers
and I've heard people talk about about the vetting process
of sellers on whatnot is not very stringent. It's very
much just hey, what are you selling, when are you
going to sell it? What's your name, what's your tax information?
And then they're kind of on the platform. It's one
of the good things about sports cards and one of
the bad things.
Speaker 2: Potentially.
Speaker 1: It's anybody can really start a business within the sports
card industry. But you know, for some times that's maybe
potentially the worst. You know, that's not that's not as
good because you have people who want to, you know,
scam like they are doing here.
Speaker 2: So if what we can't say it's a scam, I mean,
I don't think they're doing anything illegal. What they're doing
is they're playing on people's sympathies and they're and the
passion of the collector, and so that's it doesn't mean
they're scamming. In fact, the live selling may not even
be their biggest money maker, but what it might be,
it might be their gateway drug that pulls people into
there that get enamored of the live selling platform. They're
having a great time. Oh yeah, and we got some
breaks over here, and we get some mod things over here,
and you know, you're you're part of our our family here,
and we got some gambling quote unquote kind of stuff.
But fanatics may wind up doing the same thing. They've
got gambling, they've got breaking, they've got auctions, they've got
they're making the cards, all that stuff. So but if
it's a gateway drug that the live selling is getting
people into, hey what not's my friend? That's a lot
of fun there, And hey, I could just I can
just click over here and get into this. I made
some money on that. I'll put it over here. You
have to be a discerning collector. There are too many choices.
You can't say yes to everything, right.
Speaker 1: I think I'm sorry, and I just want to say something.
I think I was when I use the words game.
I think maybe I was using that a little bit
too liberally. I was. It was more of just an
overall I don't know, this word scam was maybe used
a little bit, uh, you know, in jest. I wasn't
necessarily calling it a scam. I suppose, just to just
make that clear. So sorry, go ahead, Victor.
Speaker 3: No. I wanted to go going back to foul Ball's
comment live selling the future and so then I asked myself, well,
why is life selling the future? And I've never again,
I've never dove into that arena, so I really don't know.
But keeping my ear to the rail like I typically do.
Here's the problem that I have with certain things is
the popularity of life selling is in the going back
and forth with the bids. Right, people are are kind
of like sending this card up in value, and you
have a lot of people purchasing cards. They're purchasing a
five dollars card for twenty to thirty dollars or a
ten dollars card for forty fifty dollars. And how long
do you think that's going to last before that collapses?
Before people realize, man, wait a minute, here, I spent
I spent X amount of dollars here, but it's only
worth this much. How long before they actually figure out
that they've gotten burned and it's burned.
Speaker 2: They didn't get burned. They went to the movies, they
saw a reality show. They were entertained, and the price
of the movie ticket was eighteen dollars And a lot
of stuff goes for less. So it's not a sure thing.
And that's excitement. I might get a good deal. I
might not, but I'm gonna enjoy the process. So they've
created something that is our whole culture all over the
world is short attention span and in immediate gratification. They're
playing into that. And so again, Adam, it's not a scam.
It's it's playing to what people are doing and really
perfecting it. But now they're finding out they've been so
good at marketing these other quasi gambling products, they're they're
gonna have some explaining to do in front of Paul
LESCo and these other I believe there'd be a lot
more than fifteen.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, eventually, Well right, and I you know, if
I'm gonna be honest, I had never really thought of
it that way. I have thought of, you know, gambling,
because I do, you know, bet on sports occasionally, and
if you know you're going to a game or you're
watching a game, you know, it's it's if you are
if you're spending five, ten, fifteen, twenty dollars on gambling,
that's you know how I sort of did view it
like you said, like if you're going to out to dinner,
you're not sitting there being like oh my god, I
can't Well you probably are when you dinner, but for
the most part, you know, you know what you're expecting.
You're not like expecting to get any money back if
you're going out to dinner, you know, go into the
movies or stuff like that. I do think that the
live selling platforms need to implement some sort of like
comping system from eBay or something, or card Ladder one
of these platforms, because you know, on one hand, I
agree with you, doctor Beckett, like you're paying for the
entertainment and you're buying a card. But I also think
that if the seller is saying that this card is
worth two or three x, which I have seen many
videos on Twitter of people talking about how certain sellers
will say, oh, this is a two hundred dollars card,
when it's on eBay it's selling for fifty dollars pretty regularly.
That I don't really like if the you know, if
the seller's not moding how much the person should be
spending on the card and it just happens to, you know,
sell for more. I also think that there should be
some sort of safe net for people who maybe are
maybe they don't know as much, maybe they don't know
how to look up comps. But you know, the other
part of this, just from my last point here is
the urgency and the short term auctions. I think it
activates something in our brain that you know, scarcity and
the quickness that you have to buy. I mean, you
go to websites and you see, oh, there's this offer
you can only get for the next twenty minutes or
something like that, and that's you know, that's a pretty
that's a pretty often used marketing tool. So it's potentially
the same thing here with the cards. So I mean,
it's kind of it's a give and take here, you know, Doc,
go ahead, doctor makettyeh Adam.
Speaker 2: When I read the complaint, that's not the essence of
the complaint. From what I can see, it's not about
that I overpaid a in a live selling platform auction
where it got carried away. It said, I get sucked
into these other things where I had to go in
to debt and all that. And like I say, if
you're paying double or triple off, something's worth and if
it's ten bucks instead of three bucks, or thirty bucks
instead of fifteen bucks, that's not the essence of this complaint.
It's that they were they were buying into big things,
and that's the problem because you're not nobody's gonna nobody's
gonna look them up. They're not gonna They're just in
the moment.
Speaker 1: Right, No, But yeah, that's maybe just a secondary part
of you know, my thoughts on whatnot.
Speaker 2: And but it's what you go into and I go
into because I think, hey, that's where that's really wrong.
But people are not complaining about that that they're gonna
win some lose some. They're complaining that they're losing their
homes and marriages and families because they're getting deep into
debt because they lost lost the next one. I'm sure
I'm gonna win, and so they double down and all
that stuff, and at the end of the end of
the all of a sudden their credit cards are maxed
out and all that stuff. So to me, that's the
essence of what these fifteen and others might be saying,
not that I paid a little bit too much. I
got swept away in that. No, I got swept away
that what not is my friend, and whatnot is the
way I need to concentrate my hobby passion in in
their system, because it's not what's not in any way
playing into the logic or the analysis. They're completely bypassing that.
And so when people sign up for it, they're admitting,
I'm going to go into a live selling platform. Anything
could happen, and I'm okay with that.
Speaker 3: Right, Jim, let me ask you this on this topic.
I read somewhere in an article I forget where, but
it's said that Whatnot in October of twenty twenty five
had a company valuation of eleven point five billion dollars
is what this company's worth. Now you couple that to
the investigation that Congressman pat Ryan is. It's gotten the
attention of the politicians, and and that's a separate issue
as far as p s a UH is concerned. That's
what pat Ryan was looking at. But could this lawsuit
raise a red flag even more for government regulation?
Speaker 2: To me, this is more serious. I think the Pat
Ryan thing isn't going to go anywhere. But we're being
challenged as we become, uh, you know, self aware that
we need to do our own regulation and that and
then and part of this arbitration, UH, these proceedings that
Paul Lesco's bringing are an attempt for us to bring
attention to our industry that we don't like the way.
We don't like the way whatnot is is uh handling
their business within their ecosystem. They don't want to let
us leave. They they get you know, it's like all
these gambling sites give you free free money for your
first bet, pull you in now again, Adam, I don't
think that's a scam. But if again with a younger demographic, say, hey,
somebody's get give me free money. Hey, I mean, and
that was fun. I lost this time, but I'm gonna
win the next time and all that. So so I'm
I'm I'm I'm more concerned about this. But I do
think that I just think Whatnot is going to clean
up their act to a degree, at least give the appearance.
Speaker 1: Of doing that, right, Yeah, I mean, And in even
the thing that you were saying, doctor Beckett, like the
free money, I saw an interesting statistic that I think
a lot of people were overlooking that. The It was
something along the lines of like the female demographic of
gamblers has increased like by like three hundred percent. But
like what I think maybe people aren't realizing from looking
at that statistic, it's the It's just it's not it's
people signing up for it under their spouse's accounts so
they can get more money.
Speaker 2: Like that's probably more likely that part of no, no, no, no.
They've made gambling a community event. Women are more drawn,
you know, very generalizing. Women are more drawn to community
that everybody's doing it and my my friends are doing
it and all that stuff. So anything that's community. You know,
men frequently zominave, I've got an idea, I'm going to
do this, and all self reliance, all this stuff. Women
frequently do things in groups, and more power to them.
But if it's a bad deal, it's a bad deal.
Whether it's for a man or a woman and whatnot.
Is in the business of don't consider whether it's a
good deal or a bad deal. It's available right now.
You might win, you might lose, and have some fun,
right exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean we're moving really towards you know, doctor Beck,
I'll ask you this question, the I guess the gambling
nature within sports cards. Is that something that is more
of a recent phenomenon or is this something that you
have seen kind of throughout the history of cards and
maybe now that everything is online it's just easier. Is
it something that has always been in the industry or
is this maybe a newer phenomenon from what you've seen
being in the industry for so long.
Speaker 2: No, it's it's like Josh louveris in the blind boxification
of everything. If you open a pack, you're you're kind
of gambling. You're you know, you're you're gonna pay whatever
for the pack and you're gonna open it up and
you might get more, you might get less. So that's
not but that's there's no cheating in that, there's no
an edge. It's just you just do it. You open
it up and you might win, you might lose. But
what they've done, which is very insidious and is happening
right now as we speak in the participation markets with
you know, polymarket and uh what's Calshi, those have figured
out a way to make it not be gambling. So
the definition of gambling has being brought as being narrowed
to where it so this So what whatnot is doing
is that's going to be a big issue in the
case for Paul LESCo is this, are they gambling without
gambling without a license and they're gonna say no, we're
doing just like these others. Everybody's coming into it It's
not like if you buy a lottery ticket and if
you you lose, you just tear up the lottery ticket. No,
you bought a card. The card still has value. So
there's all these ways to jerry mander the definition. And
that's gonna be the battle for Paul LESCo. And it's
gonna it'll help. It will help because I think, you know,
Josh talked about the game of the blind boxing. There's
a gamblification of everything. Now Fanatics is moving into that.
Maybe the Fanatics does this same playbook of you know
of you know, we got you with the jerseys now
and we got you with the lids, we got you
with the cards. We have gambling now, you already have
an account, we already know what your favorite teams are.
We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna send you some tips
right right now. I'd like to see this settlement that
that hopefully Paul, caring deeply about the industry, would would
put some guardrails there. I mean, Victor and I you
probably are to Adam, but you know, guardrails are important.
They don't have to be so narrow that you can't
do anything, but they need to you know, kind of
this is acceptable. This is not right. Yep.
Speaker 1: And and look, I mean gambling is fun. I'll like,
I mean it's fun. It's going to a casino's fun.
Betting on sports is fun. But I think unfortunately it
is an activity that some people don't know how to
stop doing. And I think that in the sports card
industry or just maybe just in general, we're not gonna
go We're not going backwards. I think now that the
toothpases out of the tube here, Like, I think the
next step is just going to be education on whether
it's you know, the you know gamblers anonymous or any
any of these things for to help people with you know,
maybe people that have addictions to gambling or any of
these things. I just think the education process is going
to continue to be as important as it has ever.
And you know, Victor, for someone like you who you know,
I don't know if you have I guess, I don't
know if you have an education background, but your YouTube
channel is very educational. Do you think that we're you know,
I guess I asked, I said the question, We're not
going backwards, but where do you think we go next?
Speaker 2: Here?
Speaker 1: With maybe some of this stuff with whatnot, or you know,
any of the live platforms when it comes to I
guess the gambling, but just in general, like, where do
you think we go next here in the sports card industry?
I guess from from this standpoint with maybe this lawsuit
or some of the arbitrations going on.
Speaker 3: Well, I, for one, I'm a big I want to
support Paul Esco in his endeavor in what he's doing
to me. He's got an obligation to win a settlement
for his clients. But I hope that it goes beyond
just that. I'm really hoping for change to happen. And
I know as a hobby we've been debating whether the
hobby needs regulation or not regulation, or something needs to happen,
something needs to change. I think this is a good
first step in that process. What happens next, man, it's
it's it's all in the hands of the arbitrator. I
do know that I think it's gonna be a huge
decision because that gonna it's gonna set the tone for
the rest of the industry, I believe, right. So what
happens next, I don't. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Adam, go ahead, Jim again, Paul being a seasoned attorney.
He has fifteen clients. I believe it is his choice
of which one he wants to put forth first. These
are separate. This is not a class action, and so
he could put a very strong case first, or a
weak case first, whatever he wants to do. He's an
experienced litigator and he's gonna he's gonna know because he
understands the hobby, what what is going to put perhaps
whatnot on the defensive to bring them to the table,
because I don't think they're kind of do fifteen arbitration hearings.
They're gonna they're gonna do one, and both sides are
gonna hear each other out and say, hey, we got
a problem. And the plaintiffs are going to say, you know,
we're not going to get very much money out of them,
but we could get some institutional change that'd be for
the betterment of the hot and and maybe, like I said,
maybe they get some what not bucks. But it can't
be a public settlement where everybody got a big, big
amount of money or that. That's that's no point o right.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I I you know, it's it's definitely going
to set a precedent. I think here in the industry
that maybe in need, maybe we need some sort of
precedent set where companies are gonna need to make some
changes to how they're running their business, potentially to you know,
I don't know, safeguard or add add some sort of
thing that you know, can't allow companies to I don't know,
you know. I At this point, it's really comes down
to what ends up happening. We don't really know what
the next steps are. Like Victor was saying, we are,
you know, kind of coming up here on the top
of the hour as well. Uh So I'm gonna kind
of wrap things up. I'm gonna send it back around
the horn here. Uh you know, Victor, I'll start with you.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Any final thoughts here, any shout outs you want to give,
let everybody know where they can find you, all that
kind of good stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got I was reading a question here by
Able in Vegas. He was asked in a question while
you were He says, if will you have to be
twenty one to buy into repacks? Will they lower the
age to eighteen prepacks? That's that's that's a good place
to I don't know what it is now. Can an
underage person get into a repack. I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine. Probably, I mean there's probably some sort
of age verification on whatnot, because you need to put
in money. But it's you know, who's to say some
I don't. I don't know. I'm not sure actually, so yeah,
but that's that's definitely a good question.
Speaker 2: Problem is repacks or have a higher floor then you
get with opening boxes and packs. If they're digital repacks,
then you know what's in the product. Everything's on the
up and up. You can see what you're gonna get.
You're paying one hundred bucks, you're gonna get between seventy
five and five hundred dollars, and you know one person
can get five hundred bucks and a lot of people
can get seventy five. So you're you're you know, you
have a limitation in the loss, whereas with some of
these packs you can get So they're that's the problem.
They're not going to say, hey, you've got to be
at least eighteen to buy a pack of cards. Right,
So Bob.
Speaker 3: Boozel wants to know how do we pay off the arbitrator?
Speaker 2: If you know, Bob boozl trouble. But you know, Bob
Booz will come on and defend yourself with that outrageous. Now,
the arbitrators they get stuff like that, but here's the thing.
They're not paid off and they're paid by both, but
they have more frequent business with the large company. They're
never going to get another case with plaintiff ABC. But
they're libel if the play if. Because these arbitrators are chosen,
then they have to be mutually acceptable. So they're not
paid off per se, but their bread is more buttered
on one.
Speaker 1: Side, right yeah, And I mean I guess so, doctor
Beckett'll ask you the same question I have for Victor here,
Any any last thoughts, any shoutouts you want to give
what you got coming up? I know you, you know,
I know you got the podcast, and if you want
to give that a shout out, go for it as well.
Speaker 2: You just did. But I always like to say thank
you Adam for being the quarterback and handing off to
Victor and me appropriately and it's it's been a great saturday.
Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And actually just jump back to you right quick, Victor,
you want to give a shout out to any of
your channels, any of that stuff.
Speaker 3: I give a shout out to you, Adam, got to
check you out on TikTok. You like taking over to
TikTok world. You got job promotion with Sports Card Nonsense.
Mayn remember me on your way up? Is what I say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, trying my best over here. Yeah, I guess true
r sees. I am going to shout out you Victor,
true r sees. I think that's the handle everywhere correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, everywhere right, true r sis.
Speaker 1: Go check out uh, go check out all the stuff
that Victor's got. Go check out Doctor Jim's Doctor Beckett's podcast.
If you want to check me out on TikTok it's
just you know, Adam, Drew Palmer or Instagram or uh
posting videos on the Sports Cards Nonsense YouTube channel, So
go check that out. I appreciate everybody in the chat here.
We will be back next Saturday here on four Collectors
for another episode of Hobby Hotline. Thank you everybody in
the chat. Thank you to everybody leaving their comments today.
Appreciate y'all and I'll see you in the next one.
Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to this episode of Hobby Hotline.
Just want to remind everyone we are a live show
every Saturday morning eleven am eastern eight am Pacific on
the four Collectors channel on YouTube. That's the number four
the word Collectors channel on YouTube. We hope to see
many of you live on a future Saturday. We have
a great interactive chat room and we always provide a
link for anyone that wants to come on the show
and chop it up with us. So that's a reminder
every Saturday, eleven am eastern eight am Pacific only four
Collectors channel on YouTube. Hope to see you on the show.