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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pegana Show.

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How are you doing today, Thomas.

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Speaker 2: And well, thanks as always for hosting me on this

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fine day. Yeah it's another's day, so good fortune and

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long life till the mom's up too.

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Speaker 1: Which mine was still around likewise, Yeah, all right, so

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this is long awaited. A lot of people have asked

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for this. I'm excited about this. Start talking about the

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Spanish Civil War. Just start going. I'll interrupt if I

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have any questions. Let me let me start off with

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an easy one. When was the first time you started

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looking at the Spanish Civil War?

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Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it was pretty early on, because

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it's something that was mythologized, rewatch. I remember when I

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was like a teenager in college age, you know, like

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in my late team's early twenties. There was this great

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mythology spun around the communist side, which is euphemistically referred

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to as like the Republican side. I mean that it's

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like the who was arming and equipping and providing nkvd

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UH functionaries to slaughter people behind the lines. It was

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the Soviet Union doing that. Okay, you weren't. They weren't

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fighting and create like twenty first century Sweden, not that

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would be any great shakes either, but you know then

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oh and you know, we there were some Russians there too,

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so that that didn't make any sense. And the you know,

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as I got into before, before consumer internet was a thing,

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you know, like I've said, you had to rely basically

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on the resources of your local library. And I was

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blessed in that regards. I live in Chicago, Land or

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stuff like the Institute for Historical Review and uh, the IHR.

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They they were always putting out stuff related to condor relegion. Okay,

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I mean in part because there's a lot of like

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aviation buff old guys like buying your stuff, I assume,

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but it's also guys like Mark Weber or whatever I

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guess he goes by, you know, and uh, and some

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a lot a lot of their kind of best contributors

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and editors they were. They were always coming back to

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the War in Spain, you know, the Battle in Spain,

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how that how that shaped you know, conceptual horizons strategically,

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and how it was really you know, kind of the

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precursor to everything that followed. And it was uh, you know,

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like I said, I I think it was Sleen who

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said that, you know, Stalingrad is where left and right

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had geliens met to set all their differences. That first

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time that happened was in Spain. Okay, even on their

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visioness side, though, there's misconceptions, like I I'm going to

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get into some of that today. Like David Irving is

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kind of even though people view him as this kind

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of like art revisionists, in a lot of ways, he's not.

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And I mean I think he's he's he's the historian

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of the Third Reich, and he's just like a great individual,

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but he's he mischaracterizes the political uh situation there uh

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relative to the combatants. And I'll get into what I

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mean by that, but I mean it was basically, my

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interest in the Spanish War was concomitant with you know,

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my interest in the Third Reich in the Second World

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of War, because I came to realize that these things

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were inextricably connected as well as you know, it's like

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why there's a number there's a lot of conflicts where

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people try to finesse the true nature of the combatants,

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you know, owing the ideological prejudices. Like I mean that

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that was in my own lifetime. I mean that that

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happened in you know, nicaragu when I'll sell it or

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that's what like our dear friend Dan, he's an expert

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on that. You know, he's been taking the oral histories

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of of a nationalist veterans, uh in all Salvador. You know.

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That's why I hosted him on the pot and I

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hope to again. But you know, so I pretty quickly

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realized that it was imperative the kind of deep dive

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into into the Spanish War, but also Spain. There's a

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lot of a tragic character to Spain, and Spain is

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really I mean despite the fact, or maybe because of

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the fact, I you know, and I'm not saying it

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does not a value loaded statement that you know, the

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Vatican is in Rome, like Spain, Spain kind of lived

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out in the most kind of sanguinary ways, you know,

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like uh, like the Catholic historical experience, you know, whether

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it was you know, the centuries along Riconquista against Islam,

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which like other Europeans unless you count you know, people

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in the Bulk in the in the Balkans like weren't

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dealing with that, you know, like and uh, you know,

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just the uh the relationship of the the clergy to

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the monarchy. But all so I mean again ironically, and

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we'll get into this too in a minute. The reason,

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Machiavelli you constantly invoked the example of Ferdinand and Isabella,

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it is because Spain, despite the fact that they despite

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the fact that they remain kind of feudal in like

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their sensibilities. You know, even until the the early twentieth century,

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Spain was the first truly kind of Westphalian national state,

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like before Westphalia, you know, where you had a truly

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absolute monarch and the and the borders of Spain were

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national borders, you know. It wasn't it wasn't a confederation

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of palladies, you know, where there was uh, you know

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where there was some lame duck you know, secular prime

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minister or chancellor, you know, kind of like holding the

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illusion together like it really was like an absolute monarchy

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of a national state, you know, and not as like

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a puppet of the Vatican or anything like that. So

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there's always like weird dichotomies. So it has got interested

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in like Spain like on its own terms, because like

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I you know, I'm a student of political theory, you know,

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when I isn't.

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Speaker 1: There isn't there also the in the history of Spain,

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after you have the uprisings to kick the Moors out,

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Spain falls under much like Russia would later a few

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centuries of Jewish influence to the point where Spanish Spanish

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are being made slaves are being made slaves of Jewish masters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was definitely that, that was definitely a very

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real phenomenon, and that didn't happen in Western Europe. That

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happened like Poland was basically a huge like Jewish sleeve colony,

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like Ukraine wasn't it might opinion still is today. And

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I mean not just knowing metaphoral terms, in real terms,

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particularly if you particularly you know, if you count pornography,

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which is which is literally white slavery. I mean it's

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not a u fromism. That's accurate, which is why that's

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what it used to be called. But uh, in Western Europe,

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like corrupt as the French uh uh, the Republic was,

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you know, as regards you know, being in bed with

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uh with the Jewish users and other uh you know,

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another another, an other another powerful people who were you know,

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operating and hymically to the inimical to the national interest.

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It's kind of like out and out the domination you

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know of people's you know, like like not just socially

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but physically. Yeah, I mean Spain was ground zero for

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that kind of thing in a way that was alien

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to Western Europe. I evertis Western Europe, but so yeah,

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I mean it was it was kind of like this,

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It was kind of like this collision of like the

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ancient and the very modern and you know, stuff like that.

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But to your point, you know about uh about you know,

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Spaniards and Jews, that that's going to require like a

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dedicated deep dive because it's just like too big for

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me to and I don't want to just like shoot

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from the hip on it today because if the I

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I didn't I didn't like prepare any notes or anything

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or just like refreshment recollection. I know a lot about

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the topic, but I got to be able to say

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dates and things in a linear order, and like I

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can't do it on the top of my head. It's

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not a robot or a savant. But but yeah, I

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mean that's that's important, and that's also you know, I mean, uh,

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it's just an ongoing and like the term you know,

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moranos or mono, like I don't. Uh, I don't, I don't.

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I don't know what the correct pronunciation is. You know,

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he's the one, uh the Ferdinand demanded that, you know,

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like all all Jews convert and like accept Catholicism, you know,

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as the national religion. You know, which again it's you know,

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the ironically or perhaps not, you know, Spain became the

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first truly like national state. But the point is like

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that wasn't just stuff that was That wasn't just Fernan

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trying to kind of score points with the clergy or

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something like this. This was imperative in Spain in a

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way it was not other places, or maybe not. Maybe

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imperative is not there word. This was a measure that

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had a context in Spain that it did in other places,

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even where there was you know, bed blood across ethno

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sectarian lines of a way that was any way that

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was uh, very pronounced. But I want to do two

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things today. I wanted to get just kinda briefly into

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you know, sociological features of Spain that relate to you know,

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political development that became critical variables in the War of

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nineteen thirty six thirty nine. I also want to deal

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with some like misconceptions about fascism itself, and about what

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the perspectives were of a in Berlin and in Moscow,

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and and and how Hitler viewed the situation strategically, and

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how Stolid did because this is wildly taken out of

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context by every virtually everybody, including some people who are

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very studied revisionists and should know better. But you know

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that said, I'll uh, let me, let me just let

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close out this window. Basically I'm gonna start. It's gonna

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seem like I'm jumping around a bit, but I believe

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this is the best way to present it, especially because

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you know, I'm starting something that's familiar. And also this

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is kind of the framing device as you if if

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if if that makes sense? When did uh basically Hitler

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and the the inner kind of core, the third or

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eych you know that being gearing Gebels, you know, Uh Hitler,

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they first kind of became uh, they first kind of

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became aware of Spain and strategic terms. It was July

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twenty fifth, nineteen thirty six. It seems like something out

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of a movie, but Hitler was actually attending an opera

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I think at UH by Ruth or bay royth like

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I I'm sure I'm portraying that pronunciation. But literally, at

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the intermission of this opera, it Canarious approaches a Madmial Canaris,

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who was, you know, a very conspiratorial individual and a turncoat.

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I mean it's been proven, you know, many times over,

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but he was. He was chief of the ABVIA, you know,

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the foreign intelligence service. And Canarius was strange because in

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some ways he seemed to be acting, you know, at

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critical moments in the in the interest of the Third Reich.

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You know, other times he was you know, working as

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UH just as actively the sabotage, it's strategic ambitions, beaven

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its survival. But that's a that's a subject to itself.

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But Canaras had actually introduced m Yeah Hitler to Franco's

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people and UH. Canari's UH. He approached Hitler during the

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intermation of this opera, and he brought him an urgent

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UH telegram, which was an appeal from UH to a

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Franco's emissaries, you know, asking them for immedia, asking the

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Third Right for immediate assistance. Specifically, Franco needed to transport

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the Moroccan legions were sympathetic, you know, if the nationalist

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caused from UH North Africa to the Spanish mainland, you know,

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to rapidly reinforce, and Hillar convened daring Arhard Milche Albert Kesselring,

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who I made the point, you know, kessel Ring was

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finally his final command was, you know, the defense of Italy,

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and UH he was never his forces were never defeated,

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you know, they the war ended. So I mean, the

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the Wehrmacht and the Loofaffa just just went home, you

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know it. But kessel Ring at that time was was

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the LUFA the chief of staff Milch, who was an

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absolutely brilliant guy in all kinds of ways. UH and

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in an operational term, see, he was second to none.

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But all of and this will become relevant later, all

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three of them said, yes, we've got intervened. Now. Hitler

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UH authorized a full scale LUFAFA intervention. All the men

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hasn't said, We've got to be careful here, you know,

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we're very We've got to be very careful about you know,

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the signals we send to the Soviet Union, to the UK,

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to France. Okay, Ultimately, UH getting deployed a bomber squadron

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under U von rich Toffen who along with von Toma,

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who commanded the ground element and we'll get into that later.

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We're uh they were both you know, top Uh, they

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were both top commanders, and there's someone overlooked and people

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who like the rank that acts as the generals and

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what have you. But Hitler's view was that, you know,

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there was a need to test uh, you know, German

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combined arms, you know number one, you know, and familiarize

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h familiar eyes uh you know, both Aaron ground element

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forces with with these new technologies. Secondly, there needed to

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be you know, the younger generation wasn't battle tested, you know,

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and there was that too. Garring's notion was, uh, Gearing

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at that time was still in charge of uh, you know,

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the the broad economic planning, you know, in a way

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that would later end up uh in the lap of disasters.

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He earned you that as well as Earhart and Mills,

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00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:24,440
you know, kind of in a in a more limited way.

236
00:15:24,519 --> 00:15:28,159
And some would you know be uh you know conferred

237
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,639
upon Albert Spear, you know, it was armaged minister. At

238
00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:35,759
this point. Garing was kinging of like the freer plans. Okay,

239
00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:41,240
Gearing coveted precious metals that Spain had stuff like tungsten

240
00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:47,000
stuff like copper. You know that that uh that he reasoned,

241
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,200
uh could be bartered in direct exchange for military aid

242
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:57,600
or you know, acquired fire sale prices. Okay a uh No,

243
00:15:59,519 --> 00:16:04,240
by all, a general war was underway in Spain. Okay,

244
00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:09,639
And at this point Milch kessel Ring Gerring said, we've

245
00:16:09,679 --> 00:16:11,879
got to be very careful about escaliefs unless we find

246
00:16:11,919 --> 00:16:15,679
ourselves in a general war with the Soviet Union. Okay.

247
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,600
So this idea that the Soviet Union just you know,

248
00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:23,799
owing to socialism in one country. You know, the Soviets

249
00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:26,799
weren't really involved in Spain. Stalin was in Spain one

250
00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:29,120
hundred percent. He was in it to win it. On

251
00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:31,519
his side, he didn't want to yet provoke a war

252
00:16:31,559 --> 00:16:34,200
with the Third Reich. Okay. See, you've got something of

253
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:40,080
a Mexican stand off beneath kind of you know, and

254
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:48,120
an intended subterfuge. Okay. What Stalin meant by socialism in

255
00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:50,279
one country? You've got to understand the way the Russian

256
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:56,799
Revolution developed, the way that Lenin envisioned the Bolshevik cause,

257
00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:01,759
you know, as a vanguard movement. The basic problem within

258
00:17:01,879 --> 00:17:05,960
kind of communist political theology, or rather the kind of

259
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:11,960
conceptual view of you know, like the man doesn't make history,

260
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,839
like history awaits you know, history gives man kind of

261
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,720
the clarion call, you know. And you can't force revolutionary

262
00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:25,359
conditions too early. And uh, you know this idea that

263
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,240
you know, one can just build quote build socialism in

264
00:17:29,279 --> 00:17:32,519
a backwards country like Russia, you know, and then you know,

265
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,839
Russia can catch up to the rest of the world,

266
00:17:35,279 --> 00:17:38,559
you know, and then you know, when a general proletarian

267
00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:42,599
revolution starts, you know, sweeping the developed world, well Russia

268
00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,200
will be right there. I mean, this, this is this

269
00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:48,599
is not orthodox marcis Leninism. Okay, that's what Stalin was

270
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,680
talking about. He wasn't saying, oh, I'm gonna glad hand

271
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,640
with fascism because I don't want anyone to think I'm

272
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,000
doing anything but looking inward. And you know, I'm not

273
00:17:57,039 --> 00:17:59,079
really a communist and I don't really have designs on

274
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,960
Europe like that. This nonsense. Also at Base Spain was

275
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:13,359
a political fight, Okay. Politics matters when you're dealing with

276
00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:18,920
a revolutionary fervor that is sweeping not just a key

277
00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:22,559
territory but literally the continent. Later during the Cold War,

278
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,480
arguably the planet, but we're not there yet. The Third

279
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,680
Reich had to go fight in Spain because Spain is

280
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,680
where the Communists drew line. Okay, that was that that

281
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,039
that that was eight hundred percent and vice versa. Like

282
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:43,680
Stalin this Moscow, the Soviet Union and its entire claimed

283
00:18:43,759 --> 00:18:47,039
the mantle of you know, global leadership of the proletariat.

284
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,279
That that would have totally evaporated. You know, if if

285
00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:56,079
if Stalin had not you know, set the communists whatever

286
00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:59,920
they needed to win, Okay, But at the same time,

287
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,799
abiding the need, you know, to keep up appearances. You know,

288
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,799
it's even more important to keep up appearances as you know,

289
00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:10,039
when when when when you're undermining you know, what you

290
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,079
report to be your own commitment to peace and and

291
00:19:13,079 --> 00:19:16,359
and aversion to escalation. I mean when it Boss tweets,

292
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,519
the appearance of the law is fundamental, like especially when

293
00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:22,440
it's being broken. I mean it's this shouldn't come as

294
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,000
a this shouldn't seem like outlandish anybody, Okay, But that's

295
00:19:28,319 --> 00:19:33,920
that's that's uh, you know that that's there's there's so

296
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,960
much dishonesty around the issue. That's why I emphasize that

297
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,119
a lot of people point to Hitler made a statement,

298
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,119
and I think you can find this in table talk,

299
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,440
but I found citations and Irving. I found a citation

300
00:19:47,559 --> 00:19:54,240
and Irving's The war Path also in uh after in

301
00:19:54,319 --> 00:19:57,680
early in November December thirty seven, it's about a year

302
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,960
Onward Hitler. Uh. Hitler had told Ribbon Trops chief of

303
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,279
staff or his secretary that, uh, you know, like something

304
00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:13,319
that something effected, like an outright victory of Franco. You know,

305
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,400
we actually might live to regret that because the guy

306
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,559
is such a bastard, you know, ha ha. But he

307
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,119
also said, you know, our interest is first and foremost

308
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,440
is preventing a Communist victory, but also to maintaining maintaining

309
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:28,960
existing tensions in the Mediterranean. You know, if uh, if

310
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:36,680
the UK was being uh you know, it's weighed and

311
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,440
out of the medicine, you know, uh. But also like

312
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,119
you know, the Spanish, you know, essentially preventing like neutralizing

313
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,119
the strategic benefit of the Strait of Gibraltar to the UK.

314
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,000
There that that give Germany tremendous power, you know, not

315
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:55,720
just in terms of the fact that well you know,

316
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,799
the real name the Royal Navy would then you know,

317
00:20:59,839 --> 00:21:02,599
be at war in a in a te theater, but

318
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,119
it would give Berlin, you know, bargaining power with respect

319
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,359
to London. And at that point, obviously, you know, Hillar

320
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,920
didn't view the UK as an enemy, you know. So

321
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,200
the fact that Hillar would lament the fact that Franco

322
00:21:17,319 --> 00:21:19,759
is a bastard, he's a terrible ally, he's impossible to

323
00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:22,160
work with, you know, the fact that he would say,

324
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,519
in a perfect world, you know, there'd be a guy

325
00:21:24,519 --> 00:21:29,160
who was more malleable, you know, in Madrid or fighting

326
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,680
to take Madrid. But also you know, in a perfect world,

327
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,880
you know, we'd be able to kind of keep keep

328
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,039
keep the Royal Navy forever tied down, you know, by

329
00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:43,079
some kind of friendly regime on the Iberian Peninsula. Like

330
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,079
that's not that doesn't that doesn't amount to some statement,

331
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,200
like some literal statement of you know, gee, we made

332
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,960
a mistake to back Franco. I mean, it's people have

333
00:21:54,039 --> 00:21:57,680
a real problem with literalist thinking in these days, but

334
00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:08,079
that they had aside, it's one of the things that arguably,

335
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,880
when I say arguably, I don't mean, uh, I don't

336
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,480
mean in my perspective, but you know, again, people who

337
00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:17,680
view the war in Spain is just kind of this

338
00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:24,920
like isolated occurrence where you know, the communists support for

339
00:22:25,039 --> 00:22:31,319
a you know, for the for the Republicans as they're called,

340
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,000
was was just some kind of token, perfunctory gesture or

341
00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:38,799
that you know, the Third Reich wasn't really committed to it,

342
00:22:39,559 --> 00:22:42,200
you know, other than you know, for the very limited

343
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,720
purpose of uh of of you know, cutting the combat

344
00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:52,599
teeth at Vermont. There really was a cross border momentum

345
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,160
developing behind parties of the right. Okay, no, there was

346
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,000
not a fascist International, but that would have been self

347
00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:05,319
defeating and all. So that's not got of the the

348
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,640
claimed legitimacy that these rightist movements had didn't entail you know,

349
00:23:10,759 --> 00:23:16,400
some uh, some kind of bureaucratic party apparatus, you know,

350
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,799
with an armed element, you know, that had some kind

351
00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:23,119
of like you know, abstract theory of history that sort

352
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,119
of rationalized you know, uh, its existence. I mean, his

353
00:23:27,319 --> 00:23:33,359
entire claim was, you know, something primordial, perennial and based

354
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,319
in you know, the uh, the mysteries of cultural and

355
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:43,960
racial origins. Okay, to anyone who thinks that there was

356
00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:47,880
not you know, a zeitgeist that was facilitating the war

357
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,039
in Spain. On both sides, the funeral of two men

358
00:23:54,039 --> 00:23:57,160
who died on the same day and whose funerals were

359
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,079
held in kind in January. The team nineteen thirty seven

360
00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:05,400
to Romanian Nationals the name of Vassil or Vassil, Vassili

361
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,680
Marine and Iron Mota. Ion Mota was Coachoriano's number two

362
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,039
in the Iron Guard. They'd they traveled to Spain, initially

363
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,640
with an Iron Guard delegation to present a Toledo sword

364
00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:26,720
to one of the Franco's generals. They ended up joining UH,

365
00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:31,880
the Nationalist side, and they were killed in action, and

366
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:41,920
this became a rallying cry across Europe. It UH. These

367
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,599
guys were reviewed as holy warriors in a in a

368
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:57,039
Christian jahad against communism, you know, against UH, against against

369
00:24:57,079 --> 00:25:04,240
Jewish aggression and all the iterations. Yeah, against atheism, you know,

370
00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:13,279
all these things. That their bodies were interred or were

371
00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:17,799
on their way to interment. We're put in a mortuary train.

372
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,759
It left Spain, it traveled through France and Belgium and

373
00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:26,799
reached Berlin in February. And everywhere they stopped they were

374
00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:29,839
met by you know, s s and s amen and

375
00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:34,920
national As Soldist party officials delgates to the Spanish falange. Uh,

376
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,480
you know, guys formal representatives of the Fascist Party in

377
00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:42,839
Italy obviously, you know, a huge iron guard contingent, you know,

378
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:50,319
men from the action in France. Ay, this funeral train

379
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:57,400
literally did an entire tour of Europe and uh was

380
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,480
greeted by throngs of onlookers giving it the Romans loot. Okay,

381
00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:06,480
So I can think of nothing comparable in in in

382
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:12,640
in the communist world before or after nineteen forty five.

383
00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:14,720
You know, I can think of thing. I can think

384
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,960
of people who the Communists tried to glom onto, like

385
00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:20,119
Bobby Sands, which was very misguided because Sands certainly wasn't

386
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,160
one of them. There are people like from the popular

387
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,759
frent Liberation of Palestine, you know, years after the fact,

388
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,559
they show up, uh, you know wearing uh, wearing Shay

389
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,720
Rivera badges and stuff. Before it became like an idiot

390
00:26:34,759 --> 00:26:38,240
hipster thing in like the two thousands, it was. Uh,

391
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,880
It's ironic because of like the the PFLP General Command

392
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,200
and people like that. Would you know what would employ

393
00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:48,359
his visage. But there's nothing comparable. You know, this, This

394
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:51,599
really was like a holy war of the right against

395
00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:55,319
you know, against what they perceived this jewelry against communism,

396
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:02,319
you know, against against uh you know again against godless capital.

397
00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:05,839
That was uh, you know, that was that was that

398
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,880
was supporting both those elements, you know, and that's why

399
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,400
these fools who you know from the UK and and

400
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,200
from the USA, like you know, I was, you know,

401
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,720
there were people say like they were fighting, you know,

402
00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:20,640
for for freedom against tyranny. It's like, no, you were fighting.

403
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,119
You were fighting alongside the Soviet Union and you're fighting

404
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,720
as a Soviet Union as most brutal zenith, you know

405
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,279
what I mean, So you can't it's not your alibi,

406
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,039
I think most important of ignorance, but it's you know,

407
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,680
it has got to be said. And on the other

408
00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:40,759
side of it, I know, we got into this quite

409
00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:43,559
a bit. We were doing our Second World War series,

410
00:27:43,599 --> 00:27:51,160
but it uh as the UH, the the dictates that

411
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,799
Stalin was uh issuing to the General Staff of the

412
00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:59,799
Red Army and the directives he was handing to the

413
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,599
to the main what's called the Main Administration, main administration

414
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,720
for political propaganda in the Soviet Army. You know, we

415
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:09,079
got into some of these things, but they these all

416
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,240
you know, on the eve of of war in May

417
00:28:12,279 --> 00:28:17,440
nineteen forty one, they were incessantly referencing the Spanish War,

418
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:26,440
and you know, the UH like a literal quote from

419
00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:36,640
U from Army Commissar first rank Zaporos. That's I can't

420
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,359
pronounce these like Georgian and Moldovan and Russian names, but

421
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:50,279
his uh, he quoted uh Stalin is saying, literally, the

422
00:28:50,359 --> 00:28:55,680
situation is developing. Due to the situation is developing, we

423
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,720
are compelled, in duty bound to take the initiative and

424
00:28:57,759 --> 00:29:01,960
dealing the first blow, beginning the war of attack with

425
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:05,920
the objective of expanding the borders of socialism. You know.

426
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,519
Quote the leader made it unmistakably clear that war is

427
00:29:09,519 --> 00:29:11,640
inevitable in the future. We must be prepared to the

428
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,960
complete smashing of German fascism. I mean this, this goes

429
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,359
on and on and on, you know. Like I said,

430
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:23,559
we we got into this in depth before in our

431
00:29:23,759 --> 00:29:26,759
you know, earlier series. But it's and I'm sure some

432
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:29,440
people will say that, like I rely too much at

433
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,640
direct testimony and things, But if you're talking about intent,

434
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:37,480
and you're trying to you're trying to piece together intent,

435
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:44,440
particularly of at scale, you know, you're talking about you know,

436
00:29:46,079 --> 00:29:49,440
command authorities, in a state that ended up at war,

437
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:56,240
you know, months or years subsequent to the statement. You've

438
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,119
got to take those things basically at face value, you know,

439
00:29:59,119 --> 00:30:01,920
because number one, like who who what audience would they

440
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,160
be speaking for? You know, these these these are the

441
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,000
notes that were found later in some cases after the

442
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,559
you know, decades later, at the opening of the Soviet archives,

443
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:13,400
you know, and it's you're you're talking like like mer

444
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,160
Smmer said, you know, if you're a general preparing for war,

445
00:30:17,319 --> 00:30:21,519
particularly in a system like the Soviet Union, where you know,

446
00:30:21,599 --> 00:30:28,160
there was a kind of totalitarian accountability where and and

447
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,279
and and at that at the level of these these

448
00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:35,279
apparatrics in generals, they were constantly under surveillance and and

449
00:30:35,359 --> 00:30:38,759
misspeaking could cost you your life, you know, Like I

450
00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:41,839
there's a basic honesty to that that you can rely

451
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,640
on in kind of absolute terms, you know, I mean,

452
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,279
what they say might be clouded by ideology, it might

453
00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:55,640
be misguided, but the idea that what amounts to these

454
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,680
uh eyes only statements from Stalin, you know, to his

455
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:06,119
political commissars, within the general, within the within within the

456
00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:09,359
what amounts the general staff of the Red Army that oh,

457
00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:12,400
they were just saying these things to give an appearance

458
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,480
of preparateness and and keep the Germans on their toes,

459
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,119
Like how how would the Germans even know of that?

460
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:19,599
You know, like it's I mean, I realize them preaching

461
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,839
to the choir here, but that's that's important. And you know,

462
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,039
the before UH, before ninety thirty nine, the last general

463
00:31:28,079 --> 00:31:33,119
deployment of UH of Soviet forces was was in Spain.

464
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,000
And granted, like they didn't have an infantry element there.

465
00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:37,640
They had the end k v D on the ground,

466
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:39,880
but they had you know, but they were there in

467
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:45,799
substantial numbers number one. And also, I mean Soviet weapons

468
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,240
were all over the battle theater, you know, So when

469
00:31:48,279 --> 00:31:51,920
they're referencing, when they're making when stalin is is is

470
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,759
issuing edicts, you know about you know, the future war,

471
00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:58,880
which obviously he's talking about the Third Reich, you know,

472
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,960
and when he's justscussing, when he's discussing tactical matters, identifying

473
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,960
what he's used as like strong points and weak points,

474
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,680
he's talking about the experience of Spain. Okay, I mean

475
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:17,000
this that that can't be denied. Now back to Spain

476
00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:22,559
at long last, the war in Spain happened in Spain.

477
00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:30,279
Uh not accidentally, you know, and not uh, it's not uh,

478
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,720
it's not a case of you know, revolutionary conditions owing

479
00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:36,680
to owing to some kind of you know, punctuating prices

480
00:32:36,759 --> 00:32:39,559
or ongoing emergency on the ground, you know, just kind

481
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:46,200
of made it right for for radicalization. Spain didn't develop normally, okay,

482
00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:51,039
like we were talking before we went live, you know, uh,

483
00:32:51,119 --> 00:32:56,359
for centuries, uh, Spain was uh what was what was

484
00:32:56,359 --> 00:33:02,119
was occupied, like large areas of territory were were occupied

485
00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:13,319
by Mazlem elements. When that was finally defeated, the you know,

486
00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:17,839
I mean basically the uh the the intermittent war against

487
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:21,680
against the the the Islamic Moors really began, I mean

488
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,559
it was it was Viscoth warlords who began, you know,

489
00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:30,599
the reconquista in uh in like the seven hundreds, you know,

490
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:38,759
and it like the territorial the territorial control of the

491
00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:42,359
Spaniards or the Moors, you know, like varied, depending uh

492
00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:45,200
on who had the upper hand in battlefield terms, as

493
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,799
well as you know, who was forced to make political

494
00:33:47,799 --> 00:33:51,160
concessions at any given moment. But it can be viewed

495
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,960
basically as you know, a centuries long process to liberate

496
00:33:55,039 --> 00:34:02,640
Spain from you know, from uh, from Heathen occupation, and

497
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,239
it was finally realized by Ferdinand and Isabella in fourteen

498
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,039
ninety two, which is a banner year. You know, it's

499
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,719
Ferdinand and Isabella. Like we talked about a moment ago,

500
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,760
I believe before Winna Lie. The irony is that Ferdinand.

501
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,159
The reason why he was praised so effusively by Machiavelli

502
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,880
and the Prince is that Ferdinand was in many ways

503
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:35,159
like the first the first absolute monarch of a of

504
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,440
a truly national state like Spain became a national state,

505
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:45,400
you know, despite it's uh, even at that point, despite

506
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:54,920
its backwardness. Okay, Now, Ferdinand had a remarkable mandate, and

507
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,480
so would have subsequent monarchs had they, you know, had

508
00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:02,400
they been able to retain the coalition they get around him.

509
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:11,719
But the uh that those successes, you know, were bought

510
00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:15,239
at a certain price. And if you're fighting in the

511
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:23,079
centuries long Holy War against dar al Islam, the only

512
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:26,760
way you can facilitate that is by giving the army

513
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:36,559
basically unlimited access to the national coffers, and you got

514
00:35:36,599 --> 00:35:44,719
to insinuate the church into political affairs that otherwise would

515
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,960
not be appropriate or constructive, and both of those things happened.

516
00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:54,119
I'm not saying bad things about the Roman Church at all.

517
00:35:54,199 --> 00:36:00,559
I'm saying this is reality. Okay. So the kind of

518
00:36:00,599 --> 00:36:04,719
prototype of U of state power in Spain was an

519
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,519
absolute monarchy before it really happened anywhere else, sustained by

520
00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:20,760
a warrior aristocracy that it was beholden to, uh, a

521
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:28,320
clergy that you know, had incredible power. You know. The

522
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,280
thing is, though, like all this costs a tremendous amount

523
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,360
of money, you know, and the solution during the Ricontista,

524
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,000
particular in the later phases, it's like you gotta feed

525
00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:41,280
your army, like, okay, well, you know, we're gonna seize

526
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,320
common land, you know, and uh, and we're gonna we're

527
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,440
gonna you know, we're gonna put animals out the pasture there,

528
00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:48,719
you know, if we need like wool or you know,

529
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,719
leather or anything else. You know, that's that's just what

530
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,800
we're gonna do. You know. So it was kind of

531
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,000
the it was kind of the fifteenth century equivalent of

532
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,440
like imminent domain, you know, like being silly sounds like,

533
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:00,840
but I'm not.

534
00:37:02,119 --> 00:37:07,039
Speaker 1: And a lot of that land was not being used, Yeah,

535
00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:09,519
a lot of that land was not being used at all.

536
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: So no, but that and a lot of and a

537
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:13,360
lot of these guys were happy to I mean they

538
00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:16,119
they wanted to purge Heathens from Spain, you know, for

539
00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:18,519
a lot more happy to allow access to it or

540
00:37:18,559 --> 00:37:21,079
to give it literally the crown. But the point is

541
00:37:22,039 --> 00:37:27,199
if you're if you're using it, you know, for commodities

542
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,679
to feed and outfit the army, or you're using it,

543
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,840
you know for this, like for this merino wool that's

544
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,840
coveted you know, all through Europe so you can raise money,

545
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:37,679
you know, so that you can put gold in the

546
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:42,280
coffers of uh, you know, the sex and weapons developers

547
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,039
that you need, you know, to fight the moors. Like

548
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,039
nobody's nobody's using that land, you know, to to to

549
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,800
build up uh, you know, to build up the Agraean economy,

550
00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:56,000
you know, and develop it and refine it and god willing,

551
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,840
you know, create some career they generate on surplus X

552
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,599
sport you know, like none of that is happening, you know,

553
00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:14,960
and it as uh as time went on, it created

554
00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:18,360
kind of a warfare state paradigm, you know, not in

555
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,400
like a corrupt sense. Like now, what I mean is

556
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,960
that you had this, you had this warrior aristocracy, which

557
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,320
is like interstitially kind of bound up with the clergy

558
00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:32,239
who both relied on each other, you know, like not

559
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,239
just for the sake of you know, the the optics

560
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,119
of authority or something. You know, like if you're gonna

561
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,119
if they were, if you're gonna wage a holy war,

562
00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:44,400
you better believe that, you know, the Roman Church better

563
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,199
is going to war with you, you know, like on

564
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,079
your side, and like their function is as important as

565
00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:51,320
you know, the men who wield the blade. I mean

566
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,159
that this should be obvious, but we're not used to

567
00:38:53,159 --> 00:38:55,599
thinking that. We're not used to talking about Europeans fighting

568
00:38:55,639 --> 00:39:00,559
holy wars like in Europe. But you know, if you're

569
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:03,000
gonna expect, if you're gonna expect peasants like give up

570
00:39:03,079 --> 00:39:06,840
land and give up like, you know, give up the

571
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,880
certain security they have, you know, from that kind of tendency,

572
00:39:10,119 --> 00:39:12,480
and you're gonna expect like freeholders, you know, to give

573
00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:17,480
up what they own, you know, so that you know,

574
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,480
these uh martial efforts, necessaries they may be, can can

575
00:39:23,639 --> 00:39:27,360
continue your luck with the situation where like nobles established

576
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,320
a kind of becomes the order of the day. Okay,

577
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,840
in a way it's not in in other societies, at

578
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,199
least in Europe, like it becomes it takes on an

579
00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:43,000
outsized importance, is what I'm getting at, Okay, And that's

580
00:39:43,039 --> 00:39:48,360
exactly what happened, and that endured, you know, perpetually, like

581
00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:52,920
after after the Europeans like one Spain meck, you know,

582
00:39:53,079 --> 00:40:00,960
for for christiandom it uh be for me the point too.

583
00:40:01,039 --> 00:40:04,480
And Bebo's book is great because it's larded with facts

584
00:40:04,559 --> 00:40:08,840
and he makes some great points. He's got some conceptual prejudices,

585
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,239
and but I rely on him a lot. He made

586
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,360
the point that in the Middle Ages, from the Middle

587
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,719
Ages until the end of the UH until the end

588
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,199
of the eighteenth century, Spain lost something like half its population.

589
00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:25,440
You know. Some of that was just kind of like

590
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:34,679
you know, the kind of uh yeah, you know, oh,

591
00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:38,320
changing patterns of fecunity and things. But part was because

592
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,920
like Spain literally had to downsize because like it couldn't fee,

593
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,760
it couldn't sustain the population that yone's had, you know,

594
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,719
and you've got uh an empire that's rapidly growing, but

595
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,199
its ability to feed its people is uh deterior reading

596
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,480
I mean, at its height, the Spanish empire literally owned

597
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,280
half the planet. Like people forget that.

598
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,639
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean even Spangler Spangler and like Pressianism

599
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:07,679
and socialism is all about mid fifteen, sixteen hundred and

600
00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:08,519
seventeen hundred Spain.

601
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. So again

602
00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:20,519
it was, uh, it was, it was highly unusual. I mean,

603
00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:22,119
I don't know if despite what people say, there's not

604
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,719
there's not some there's not some template for empires developed,

605
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,360
you know, Uh, I mean I realize it's mostly just

606
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,360
like basic ass people saying like oh, history repeat itself.

607
00:41:32,559 --> 00:41:37,480
I mean, even even people are more sophisticated than that

608
00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:39,960
don't need to realize there's not there's not some like

609
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,000
template or something. It's kind of like natural you know,

610
00:41:45,039 --> 00:41:48,719
developmental cycle. Other than other than I mean everything everything,

611
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,119
everything dies at some point or comes to an end.

612
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:52,800
That's not what I mean. I mean, I mean the

613
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,880
concrete particulars you know of of how an empire requires

614
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,920
its fortunes, you know, maintains it's a geminy and then ultimately,

615
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,760
you know, loses its ability to to compete with its

616
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,760
uh I don't compete with its enemy's order or to

617
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:15,000
sustain its its own existence at scale. But this kind

618
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,840
of warrior holy warrior ethos developed in Spain. But it

619
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:25,519
was it's uh, it admits it. It came to exists

620
00:42:25,559 --> 00:42:30,280
among like a real kind of perennial destabilization. You know.

621
00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:36,480
It's Isabella like one of her one of her final

622
00:42:36,559 --> 00:42:41,199
kind of acts of state, like late in life. Dasis Narrows,

623
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,280
who is uh this kind of legend. I mean you

624
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,079
probably know this because I mean you're a kidlic guy

625
00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:47,559
and like a Latin dude. I don't know anything about

626
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:50,199
since Narrows until like very recently. But he was he

627
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,280
was like this kind of he was. He was he

628
00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:54,920
was like this pious friar. You know, he's kind of

629
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,400
the guy who's credited. It was sort of a structuring

630
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,840
of the Inquisition as it came to as it came

631
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:04,320
to exist. And that's another thing that's grossing misunderstood by

632
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,239
people kind of on both sides of the the political spectrum.

633
00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:13,679
We'll get into that too, but the uh, the uh.

634
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,360
On the one hand, you had you had this kind

635
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,880
of tendency towards revolt that was burgening in Spain, especially

636
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,800
in some of these territories that you know had long

637
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,400
been you know, like discreete principalities, you know, with with

638
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,320
kind of unique cultural habits and and and political cultures.

639
00:43:33,159 --> 00:43:37,199
So there the ground, the proverbial soil was kind of, uh,

640
00:43:37,599 --> 00:43:42,199
it was kind of eager for for rebellion against central

641
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:46,079
authority anyway. But at that time too, like the papacy

642
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:49,119
in Rome was was viewed as highly corrupt, which it was,

643
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,119
and so a lot of these like friars who actually

644
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:55,679
were like, you know, radically pious, they they found themselves

645
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,400
at odds with the papacy, who in turn, you know,

646
00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:04,159
called upon on you know, the the Castilian monarchy in Spain,

647
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,079
they kind of restore the status quo. But the but

648
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,639
the monarchy had to tread lately because a lot of

649
00:44:11,639 --> 00:44:14,679
these priests were kind of like more like literally more

650
00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:19,800
Catholic than the pope, you know, and the Castilion monarchs

651
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,440
entire kind of their entire mandate to that kind of extraordinary,

652
00:44:26,039 --> 00:44:31,280
extraordinarily deep authority basically owed to their ability to you know,

653
00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:36,039
maintain like the confidence and and the absolute endorsement of uh,

654
00:44:36,119 --> 00:44:38,880
of the Catholic charity. You know. So it was it

655
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,119
was central wasn't against regionalism. It was you know that

656
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:44,960
that that weakened the structure that Ford and created. It

657
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:52,639
was the odd dynamics at play between uh, the papacy

658
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,039
and and you know, the cardinals in Spain itself and

659
00:44:57,079 --> 00:45:03,679
else where. It was there was a rising uh. There

660
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,280
there was a there was a there was a rising

661
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:10,800
uh against Charles the Fifth, who was Isabella's grandson. That

662
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,280
was uh, that was uh, you know, provoked by like

663
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,559
was viewed as like his his his abuse of of

664
00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:20,000
of public moneys and things. You know, it's just like

665
00:45:20,039 --> 00:45:26,519
typical sort of uh discontent you know with uh, I

666
00:45:26,519 --> 00:45:30,599
mean with with with rulers didn't well handle the forcenes

667
00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:33,440
of the country, like material and otherwise, but it took

668
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,320
on it, It took on and outside and often like

669
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:41,199
literally theological meaning like owing to you know, some of

670
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:48,599
the some of the uh sociological tendencies at play. A

671
00:45:48,599 --> 00:45:51,480
lot of the country had been assimilated into the in

672
00:45:51,519 --> 00:45:54,280
the in the Castilian rule through like marriage, you know,

673
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,920
so you had you had a Spanish halfspur line. You

674
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,400
know that like found itself at odds with with or

675
00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:03,320
with with a lot of the peasantry, you know, owing

676
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,960
to complicated reasons of bloodline and things that like wouldn't

677
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,599
mean anything to an American, but had deep, deep significance

678
00:46:10,639 --> 00:46:16,239
to to uh, you know, the people in that time

679
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,920
and place and pre even the days people like where

680
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,760
they as meeting them. I'm not saying that derisively, but

681
00:46:24,079 --> 00:46:26,000
and there was times when you had an officer court

682
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,480
who uh was sympathetic to you know, these kinds that

683
00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:35,599
like nascent middle class uprisings, you know in like eighteen

684
00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:39,400
thirteen and eighteen forty eight. You know, ultimately the pendulum

685
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:45,000
swung the other way, you know, and which is where

686
00:46:45,039 --> 00:46:50,480
it kind of remained into the twentieth century. And if

687
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:53,400
you'll notice that parallel between this kind of situation in

688
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,280
Spain and the kind of situation you had in uh Chile,

689
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,960
you know uh with uh with Pinochet and the officers

690
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,679
contra like civil society, like you'd be right, like there's

691
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:11,480
something there's something to how uh you know, Latin America

692
00:47:11,639 --> 00:47:13,800
like mirror Spain in the way that you know the

693
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:18,960
UK like mirrors the United States in terms of political

694
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,000
sociology and zeitgeist and other things. I find that fascinating.

695
00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:30,960
But it the uh, the uh like all these things

696
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:36,199
like Spain was basically it was uh everything that the

697
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:41,880
communists claimed about uh, you know, capitalists, like what they

698
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,840
viewed is like you know, late capitalist failure was found

699
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,719
in Spain, you know, and in their in their mind

700
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:51,199
or in their propaganda. But I mean think I think

701
00:47:51,199 --> 00:47:53,360
they also believed it. You know, they said that, like,

702
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,360
you know, the only reason why the only reason why

703
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,840
the church retained, the Roman Church retains power in Spain

704
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,320
is because, like the last the final recourse of the

705
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,920
capitalists is the is to draw upon, you know, reactionary

706
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,920
tendencies you know, within uh, with within the body politic,

707
00:48:11,519 --> 00:48:13,800
you know, who are vulnerable as such appeals, you knowing

708
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,360
to this going to the punctuated disruption of their lives.

709
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,480
You know. So it was like it was, I mean,

710
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,880
I think, you know, I'm as saying like war arrives

711
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,639
like the seasons, and there was matters of zeitgeist that

712
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:30,000
you know, made Spain kind of the battlespace as as

713
00:48:30,039 --> 00:48:32,840
it happened. But there was also in more kind of

714
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,000
and more and more kind of abstract terms, like abstract

715
00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:40,400
intellectual terms. It was like Spain was there was gonna

716
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,159
be there was gonna be a bullshitic uprising in Spain,

717
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,440
you know, and uh and and the the Soviet Union

718
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:51,079
was gonna be was gonna be insinuated into that process

719
00:48:51,079 --> 00:48:54,800
as much as it could be without provoking a general

720
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,360
war with you know, the Third Reich or something by

721
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:08,920
proxy the UH. Ironically, though, and again, you know, into

722
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:14,000
the twentieth century, Spain remained economically backwards. There was a

723
00:49:14,039 --> 00:49:19,760
basic hostility to commercial activity. Like it's like the Code

724
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,840
of Hidalgo or whatever. It really it really didn't a

725
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,800
certain it really didn't despise you know, money, you know,

726
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,159
like it went beyond you know, content for usury and things.

727
00:49:30,679 --> 00:49:33,559
There were there's something not just unbecoming a nobleman or

728
00:49:33,559 --> 00:49:37,599
any or any man who's you know, an upright Christian

729
00:49:37,679 --> 00:49:40,639
of good race and breeding, you know, taking any interest

730
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:45,920
in in money not derived you know from uh, from

731
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,679
an estate or something. And it wasn't they they couldn't

732
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:56,960
transition that into productive capital, you know, like say Prussia did.

733
00:49:57,519 --> 00:50:03,360
You know, So they're not despite what you know, despite

734
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:08,239
what liberals claim, like their Marxist counterparts, you know, it's not.

735
00:50:10,039 --> 00:50:13,440
Capitalism isn't like this fundamentally like actually or axiomatically like

736
00:50:13,519 --> 00:50:17,199
liberalizing tendency. You know, like Prussia was arguably the most

737
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:22,880
reactionary state that existed in the modern era, and they

738
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,320
were remarkably capitalists. I mean they were they were abiding

739
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:31,199
you know, the they were abiding the the economic victims

740
00:50:31,199 --> 00:50:36,840
of people Frederick List. You know obviously, you know, they

741
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,440
had the correct paradigm of you know, commercial interest being

742
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,000
subjugated to the national interests at all times. This idea

743
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:46,760
that like well, you know, if you have you know,

744
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,800
if you have like a basically kind of like you know,

745
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,000
martial cast or if you have you know, a basically

746
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,760
reactionary conservative elite, you know that they it's it's it's

747
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,079
literally impossible for them to uh, you know, transition a

748
00:51:04,039 --> 00:51:09,360
medieval economy into a modern market, modern value added economy

749
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,400
with you know, where where revenues are reinvested in a

750
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,159
productive capital like this bullshit, because I that's that like

751
00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:20,039
that is literally a story of Germany and especially Prussia. Okay,

752
00:51:20,119 --> 00:51:25,119
but a it uh, there was a certain rigidity to

753
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,239
things in Spain that that that just did not or

754
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,760
could not happen, and it was exacerbated you know, like

755
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,559
I said, the the the quote era of reform, you know,

756
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:38,400
like the mid eighteenth century. I guess until like the

757
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:47,199
Napoleonic the final Napoleonic UH defeat in eighteen thirteen, there

758
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,360
was there was a you know, you had you had

759
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,480
a nascent middle class or at least a wealthier uh,

760
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,840
you know, kind of a freehold class, you know, who

761
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,400
were attracted to the ideas of uh, of of these

762
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:08,280
Enlightenment propagandas at least superficially that put uh, that put

763
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,079
that put pressure on Charles the Third to issue reforms,

764
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,239
which in turn reduced the Church's influence over the army,

765
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,360
where a lot of officers were being you know, bought

766
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,840
off by these reforms. And incidentally a lot of those

767
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,480
officers had taken to Freemasonry. And that in large part

768
00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:28,840
is where you get the idea or the claim that like,

769
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,559
you know, well, Masonry is this revolution from the middle

770
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,159
kind of degenerate tendency that like hates Catholicism. I'm not

771
00:52:36,159 --> 00:52:38,239
saying that that's correct or not. I'm just saying that's

772
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,440
where it comes from. Okay, So don't I don't have

773
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:46,840
people sending me hate email or something. But that in

774
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:52,079
turn caused you know, like people who were you know,

775
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,119
sympathetic to the ancient regime or who were committed to

776
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:02,800
the kind of cast structure, and you know the uh,

777
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,599
the kind of paradigm of a you know, an officer

778
00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:09,320
corps that works handing love with the army, both of

779
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:15,039
whom are you know, beholden to an absolute monarch who

780
00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:21,119
uh in turn abides you know, their traditional privileges and benefits,

781
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,639
like socially materially. So this is just like a This

782
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,639
is just like a literally like a perfect storm of

783
00:53:27,679 --> 00:53:34,880
like dysfunctional tendencies. You know. It's and that's that's why

784
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,880
when things jumped off in Spain, you know, finally in

785
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,280
uh in nineteen thirty six, I mean, there was such

786
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,800
there was such hostility, and that's all you know, I

787
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,679
mean just I mean reciprocally, but it was also the

788
00:53:49,199 --> 00:53:52,480
it's easy to understand why even guys who weren't you know,

789
00:53:52,599 --> 00:54:00,960
diehard national socialists or like iron guard parisans, It's easy

790
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,599
to see why people looked at it like, look, this

791
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,559
is the communists are like, they're making an example here,

792
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,719
you know, the the body everything they hate. They want

793
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:13,480
to they want to annihilate Spain and the Spanish as

794
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,239
a people, as a culture form. They want to annihilate

795
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,880
the church in capacity to exist in the modern world,

796
00:54:20,679 --> 00:54:22,960
and and and then they were right, Okay. I mean

797
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:29,000
that's why it became so critically symbolic. I would seem

798
00:54:29,079 --> 00:54:30,519
like I was jumping around a lot, and there was

799
00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:34,880
a lot of like, I hope it's useless backstory and lore,

800
00:54:35,079 --> 00:54:37,960
but I that's the way it came off. I'm sorry.

801
00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:39,760
I think you'll thank me as we get into this

802
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,159
because I refer to things that. Okay, now, but we.

803
00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: Need that backstory because most people don't know the history

804
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,719
of Spain. They yeah, they I assume they just think

805
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:55,039
it is just another feudal country, country that went through feudalism,

806
00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:57,400
just like everyone else. And they don't realize the battles

807
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,119
that actually battles that you would see coming in the

808
00:55:02,119 --> 00:55:03,840
future actually happened there.

809
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,760
Speaker 2: No one hundred percent. And I also like, as we

810
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,639
go on, uh, there's just like too much to like

811
00:55:10,639 --> 00:55:12,920
fully cover here, Like you mentioned when we when we

812
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,800
talked the other day, Like I'll get into why the

813
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,679
Carlists were like fighting on the national side or the

814
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:21,960
patriotic side. I'll get into other stuff, you know, like

815
00:55:22,559 --> 00:55:24,880
why like the Spanish ar Modus defeat, you know, like

816
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,480
tanked everything. But we're gonna wait till we're like in

817
00:55:27,519 --> 00:55:29,760
that context and primarily though, I want to focus on

818
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,960
you know, the third or I get war on Spain

819
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,079
and like, you know, how the military situation developed. So

820
00:55:37,119 --> 00:55:41,000
I promise we'll dive into that very next episode.

821
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: All right, do some plugs and Lendon, Yeah, for sure.

822
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: Man. You can find me on Twitter for the time

823
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:54,840
being at Real Capital r E A L Underscore number

824
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,440
seven h M A S seven seven seven. You find

825
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:03,960
me a substick that's our primary home, No real Thomas

826
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,280
seven seven seven Subsey dot com. I think in good

827
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,599
progress towards the channel. I promise things are getting done,

828
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:12,719
even if it doesn't seem like it. I've been trying

829
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,639
to work my ass off money out of content, So

830
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,079
I've been trying to get people a lot of content.

831
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:19,199
I'm not being a murder like, oh I'm so great,

832
00:56:19,599 --> 00:56:23,000
but uh keep that in mind if it seems like

833
00:56:23,039 --> 00:56:26,920
I'm being idol or a nerd rather but uh I,

834
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,159
uh I've gotten more confidence like in shooting video. Uh

835
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,599
it just comes out of editing it and making it,

836
00:56:33,039 --> 00:56:38,199
you know, content worthy, and uh I I basically just

837
00:56:38,199 --> 00:56:40,519
got to decide on a format for you know, like

838
00:56:40,519 --> 00:56:43,440
my kind of like for for for Thomas TV, which

839
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,360
I think is gonna be something like a video blog,

840
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,239
but like I are are are are a video pod,

841
00:56:49,679 --> 00:56:51,719
but like I want to have like guests like sitting

842
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:53,880
there with me, and like some people like down for that.

843
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:56,519
Some people are like horrified to that prospect, but I

844
00:56:56,519 --> 00:56:58,320
think it'll be pretty lit man. But my point is,

845
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,360
like I'm working on all of these things, and I

846
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,679
really really appreciate everybody who gives me a platform, especially

847
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,840
not not just Pee who's my dear friend, but like

848
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,079
other people who just reach out.

849
00:57:07,159 --> 00:57:11,559
Speaker 1: So thank you very much, Thomas, I appreciate it. Until

850
00:57:11,599 --> 00:57:12,480
episode two.

851
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:14,280
Speaker 2: Yes, sure, thank you.

852
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,719
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show.

853
00:57:19,159 --> 00:57:21,760
We are here for part two on the Spanish Civil

854
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,079
War with Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing, Thomas.

855
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: I'm very well, thank you, but I wanted to talk

856
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,519
about some today. This is going to be a recurring

857
00:57:31,599 --> 00:57:39,599
theme conceptually throughout the series. There's a military dimension to

858
00:57:39,679 --> 00:57:42,920
the Spanish War that's important and was impactful in just

859
00:57:43,039 --> 00:57:49,280
positive ways. There's a political aspect and kind of very

860
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:55,760
concrete terms, especially relating to the Neutrality Act that had

861
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:57,960
really kind of bound with the ability of the new

862
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,719
dealers to act how they wanted in global terms. Frankly,

863
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:07,199
then we got into that, and our Second World War

864
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,159
series somewhat or a turn to that too in a

865
00:58:09,199 --> 00:58:15,039
dedicated capacity when it seems appropriate. But I'm sure that

866
00:58:15,199 --> 00:58:18,039
there's gonna be some people who say that this is

867
00:58:18,039 --> 00:58:20,639
over in my own conceptual prejudices, and I kind of

868
00:58:20,639 --> 00:58:27,000
hay Gaelian orientation and my tendency towards German storicism. But

869
00:58:28,039 --> 00:58:35,639
the the animating catalyst for the Spanish War was was Zeitgeist.

870
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,440
You know, we got we got into that in the

871
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,239
first episode. You know, I made the point that despite

872
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,639
the a lot of historians make a point of the

873
00:58:43,639 --> 00:58:47,679
conspicuous absence of a fascist international, you know, contra a

874
00:58:47,719 --> 00:58:51,880
communist international, some of that's a Cold War hangover, when

875
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:57,639
you know, you'd have you'd have progress, you know stuff.

876
00:58:57,679 --> 00:59:02,239
I don't like progressive historians, you know, with having to

877
00:59:02,519 --> 00:59:05,719
present the issue as well, see that, you know, this

878
00:59:05,719 --> 00:59:07,880
this was just you know, these are just capitalist states

879
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,440
and crisis, and they they were they were just scrambling

880
00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:13,639
to sort of confabulate some iteration of what appeared to be,

881
00:59:13,719 --> 00:59:16,679
you know, a revolutionary tendency in its own right. You know,

882
00:59:16,719 --> 00:59:21,320
to sort of rob the momentum of the left. You know,

883
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:26,239
that doesn't stand up to any real scrutiny anyway, But

884
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,880
the fact that there was this kind of outpouring of

885
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,039
support for the nationalist cause, you know, which really was

886
00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:39,159
the cabolic cause. You know, we'll get into that a

887
00:59:39,199 --> 00:59:44,400
little bit here today. I mean, you know, and like

888
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,679
I said, I I make a lot I guess of

889
00:59:48,199 --> 00:59:53,679
prime symbolic events, you know, I mean, prime symbols dominate

890
00:59:53,719 --> 00:59:58,840
in human psychology, you know, especially at scale, you know, sociologically.

891
01:00:01,239 --> 01:00:07,119
You know that that's that's why iconic events, you know,

892
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:11,480
defined civic memory. But also you know, that's why political

893
01:00:11,639 --> 01:00:16,840
symbols are so important, you know, particularly when there's there's

894
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,360
mobilization catalysts, you know, like during the Inner Warriors. But

895
01:00:20,119 --> 01:00:22,039
you know, we talked about the we talked about the funeral,

896
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:26,400
the funerals of the few, the common funeral of Ion

897
01:00:26,519 --> 01:00:30,519
Mota and that's the old Marine, you know, and how

898
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,559
you know, delegates from pretty much every European state that

899
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:37,000
had any kind of active right wing movement or anti

900
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:41,280
communist movement, you know, they turned out to literally salute,

901
01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:46,280
you know, the the funerary train. You know when they

902
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:52,519
were greeted, uh, everywhere they went by these cadres, and

903
01:00:52,599 --> 01:00:54,400
that's not something that's not something that could just be

904
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,280
you know, cobbled together for for photo opportunities. You know,

905
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,559
it was very authentic. And just the fact that there

906
01:00:59,599 --> 01:01:04,039
were Medians on the ground in the first place, you know,

907
01:01:04,079 --> 01:01:07,480
and then they're they're being greeted and saluted by you know,

908
01:01:07,719 --> 01:01:13,000
uh shoot Staffelman, you know, and you had Italian priests

909
01:01:13,039 --> 01:01:15,960
you know, like like like blessing them and things. And

910
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,840
then and then there's even like secular like French fascists

911
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:20,960
like action france as types like saluting them, you know,

912
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:25,719
who had obviously like no, no, no truck with reactionary

913
01:01:25,719 --> 01:01:28,719
Catholicism as it was perceived, you know, on his own terms.

914
01:01:28,719 --> 01:01:36,039
But that's most important in America too, because really some historians,

915
01:01:36,239 --> 01:01:40,000
including Anthony Beevor, who I I think he's overall a

916
01:01:40,079 --> 01:01:44,480
very good historian, articularly I mean he's not a revisionist

917
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,960
really at all, as far as court historians go. I

918
01:01:49,119 --> 01:01:52,960
think he's probably the best, you know, on the subject

919
01:01:53,079 --> 01:01:55,840
of the Second World War in the interwar years. But

920
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:03,000
he you know, he uh, he's got he's got a

921
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:07,800
tendency to kind of hit the mark but not really

922
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,519
understand the sort of depth of significance of some of

923
01:02:11,559 --> 01:02:16,400
these prime symbolic events. And he hits the mark. What

924
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,840
he talks about the Spanish War being you know, a

925
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,400
precursor to the Second World War. I mean, he perceives

926
01:02:23,239 --> 01:02:25,599
even a guy like him who rejects, you know, the

927
01:02:25,679 --> 01:02:28,960
kind of historicism of a guy like Novelty and and

928
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,920
you know, uh as well as you know the the

929
01:02:34,719 --> 01:02:38,119
the contrasy storicism of people like Osbam, But he doesn't

930
01:02:38,119 --> 01:02:42,719
identify you know, like a common uh nucleus of approximate

931
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,599
causation there. But it it was deeper than just you

932
01:02:47,639 --> 01:02:51,440
know what kind of a kind of opening act of

933
01:02:51,519 --> 01:02:56,599
hostilities relating to you know, extent you know, geostrategic ambitions

934
01:02:56,639 --> 01:03:01,800
and and and intentions. Know it really it really was

935
01:03:02,039 --> 01:03:05,719
apocal and and ideological and a matter of zeitgeist as

936
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,960
the why as the why why what animated Germany to

937
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,280
intervene in Spain? Why the Soviets staked it the way

938
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:16,840
they did, you know why you know, i uh, progressives

939
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,360
in America and the UK, you know, who identify themselves

940
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,159
as you know, on the side of the COO democracy movement,

941
01:03:23,239 --> 01:03:27,840
which which is incredibly misguided and deliberately it was a

942
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:31,119
deliberate lie. And we're going to get into that. So

943
01:03:31,159 --> 01:03:32,840
that that's a question that at Bar is kind of

944
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,760
like why Spain, Well, well, we think of, like speaking

945
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,840
of civic myths, so can we think of we think

946
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:40,800
of the kind of prime symbols The left likes to

947
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:43,079
trot out as like the horrors of you know that

948
01:03:43,119 --> 01:03:46,559
which came before one of the big ones is the

949
01:03:46,639 --> 01:03:52,480
Inquisition or the Crusades. They can't really, they can't really

950
01:03:53,039 --> 01:03:55,719
expand upon what they mean by that, you know, like

951
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,639
what inquisition, because there was three. There's the Portuguese Inquisition,

952
01:03:58,679 --> 01:04:01,320
there was the Italian, and there was the Spains. The

953
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:06,159
Spanish Inquisition was the most politically significant. I'd say it

954
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,840
was initiated by Isabella in fourteen seventy eight. You know,

955
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,119
when we talked about ferd in Isabella like the irony

956
01:04:13,159 --> 01:04:18,000
of a of a of them like preceding the Westphalian state,

957
01:04:18,119 --> 01:04:21,960
you know by a century and a half. But but

958
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:25,199
but Catholic Spain, like like like Ferdinand really did make

959
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:32,280
Spain and national Catholic state sight unseen, you know in

960
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:37,400
a in a way that is at odds with with

961
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:43,440
Spain's kind of stagnant and traditionalist culture. I don't mean

962
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:48,440
that punitively. That's just a fact. But the Spanish Inquisition

963
01:04:48,639 --> 01:04:55,119
endured for three hundred years. It's agreed upon now by everybody, Okay,

964
01:04:55,159 --> 01:04:57,639
by court, his story and revisionists or whatever. I could

965
01:04:57,639 --> 01:05:00,360
pull out citations, but I don't think it's an a assaria.

966
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,679
If somebody really wants them now or on any topic

967
01:05:03,719 --> 01:05:06,639
we cover, I can provide them, but contact me directly.

968
01:05:07,239 --> 01:05:09,519
I'm not being autistic or something like. People do that

969
01:05:09,559 --> 01:05:12,199
to me, They're like, that's a bullshit, figure, where's your source? Well,

970
01:05:12,679 --> 01:05:14,280
I can source everything, but I'm not going to sit

971
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:20,320
here and relay, you know, citations like a shithead. But

972
01:05:22,239 --> 01:05:25,400
between three thousand and six thousand people in three hundred

973
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,679
years of the inquisitions Spanish Inquisition were put to death, okay,

974
01:05:28,679 --> 01:05:33,719
based on convictions. That's about two point seven percent of

975
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:42,239
all cases. Okay. In one year, nineteen thirty six, the

976
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:47,280
communists and their socialist allies in Spain slaughtered about six

977
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:51,159
thousand priests and nuns, you know, just outright, they just

978
01:05:51,199 --> 01:05:57,880
massacred them. Okay. So within the first year of a

979
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,880
three year conflict, more clergy people were categorically slaughtered by

980
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:06,719
the Communists and their democratic allies. Then the total number

981
01:06:06,719 --> 01:06:09,960
of people put to death by the Inquisition or three

982
01:06:10,039 --> 01:06:13,199
centuries the Inquisition is what you're like taught, is this

983
01:06:13,239 --> 01:06:16,159
like event of abject horror in the strog of record.

984
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:17,960
Like I'm not cadaic, so I don't I don't have

985
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:19,559
some like direk dog in that fight other than the

986
01:06:19,559 --> 01:06:21,960
fact that this kind of thing is discussing to anybody

987
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:26,519
who's a don't normal, But that really jumped out at me, Like,

988
01:06:26,559 --> 01:06:28,519
as I said that, deep diving into Cali history, I'm

989
01:06:28,519 --> 01:06:32,199
findingly like twenty five years ago, No, okay, not because

990
01:06:32,199 --> 01:06:34,639
like I believe that, like you know, the Inquisition was,

991
01:06:35,039 --> 01:06:38,920
you know, this kind of horror show or this kind

992
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:43,960
of singular instance of brutality that's just unparalleled by anything comparable.

993
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:46,920
I mean, I knew that court history was histriotic, I

994
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:56,079
knew that they lied, but it's remarkable, like contra the

995
01:06:56,159 --> 01:07:02,840
violence that was instigated against you know, the CADLT clergy itself,

996
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,599
you know within really it wasnt until a few years

997
01:07:05,599 --> 01:07:09,559
ago living memory, you know, the if you if you

998
01:07:09,559 --> 01:07:12,239
want to if you want to vilify the Roman Church,

999
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:14,800
there's a lot of ways you can do it without

1000
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,320
opening yourself up to that kind of criticism. Okay, but

1001
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,840
I that's another example of some something like that particular myth.

1002
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,519
I was making the point that a bunch of people

1003
01:07:23,559 --> 01:07:25,960
lament you know, the information age and the kind of

1004
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:29,679
corrupting influence of you know, this kind of like totally

1005
01:07:29,719 --> 01:07:34,440
immersion like in screens. You know it there, it's more

1006
01:07:35,599 --> 01:07:38,519
it's more of a liberation mechanism than it is you know,

1007
01:07:38,639 --> 01:07:41,599
like one of then then then it's like a check

1008
01:07:41,639 --> 01:07:45,039
called the psychic slavery. And there's just like one example, okay,

1009
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:47,639
like forty years ago you could band you better. The

1010
01:07:47,679 --> 01:07:49,960
end position was the most horrible thing ever. And thank

1011
01:07:50,039 --> 01:07:53,280
god that you know, the Democrats in nineteen thirty six,

1012
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,199
you know, stopped it from from oppressing women and slaughtering

1013
01:07:56,199 --> 01:07:59,559
people and you know, like crucifying gay people. It's sitting

1014
01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:02,760
on fire, like you get away with that, Okay, even

1015
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,519
people wh knew it wasn't true, they couldn't just like

1016
01:08:05,559 --> 01:08:07,519
rebut you like with in seconds like from the phone

1017
01:08:07,519 --> 01:08:10,920
in their pocket. Okay. And I was making the point

1018
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:15,719
that you know, we're not. We're not running an evangelical church,

1019
01:08:15,719 --> 01:08:17,960
we're not missionaries. So I mean I I don't go

1020
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,199
out in the world and say to people like, see,

1021
01:08:20,199 --> 01:08:22,239
like this is what you've been lied too. Look at

1022
01:08:22,239 --> 01:08:30,920
the figures on my phone for the imposition, but for

1023
01:08:31,119 --> 01:08:34,680
the people who are you know, interested in real history,

1024
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,119
you know, for the people who are charged for political

1025
01:08:37,199 --> 01:08:40,560
or patriotic reasons, or just because like it feels like

1026
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,720
a calling me and like corny that sounds like I

1027
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:44,960
feel like being a revisionist is like my calling. That's

1028
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:50,640
like what God wants me to do. It. Uh, you

1029
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:53,079
don't feel so much like you're brushing up against the

1030
01:08:53,119 --> 01:08:57,880
Leviathan and trying to correct these lies of history. And

1031
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:03,760
it's also even if you think yourself basic immune to zeitgeist,

1032
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:07,359
you're not okay. You're gonna internalize features of it, even

1033
01:09:07,399 --> 01:09:09,960
if you're doing so in oppositional terms, because it's like

1034
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,600
the weather, you know, like Al's coming back, you know,

1035
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,640
like in Natural Born Killers, that might seem like a

1036
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,279
corny thing to site in a serious discussion, but it's

1037
01:09:18,319 --> 01:09:22,920
actually a pretty profound film. I think owing in large

1038
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:24,920
part of the screenplay, there's this one part where I'm

1039
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,479
you know what he harrelse and he's like he's modeled

1040
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:29,720
on stark Weather. You know. He says to the guy

1041
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,960
he's supposed to be like Heraldo, who's played by Robert

1042
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:33,800
Downey Junior. He's like, you know, he's like, media is

1043
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,199
like weather, but it's man made weather, you know. And

1044
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:41,039
and that's true, you know, And the degree to which

1045
01:09:41,359 --> 01:09:43,960
there was only the degree that there's a bully pulpit

1046
01:09:44,359 --> 01:09:49,520
for historical claims and narrative, you know, the kind of

1047
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:53,079
brief window an absolute turns brief. I mean between when

1048
01:09:53,239 --> 01:09:55,640
visual media you know, from the movie house and then

1049
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:57,720
you know, to the TV screen and then like the

1050
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,680
ubiquity of you know, the the cable media cycle that

1051
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,439
was edged out by Internet very rapidly after it reached

1052
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,119
the zenith. But there was a brief period of dizenith,

1053
01:10:07,119 --> 01:10:09,039
you know, in the eighties into like the mid nineties,

1054
01:10:09,159 --> 01:10:11,800
where we was just absolute okay, like it it was

1055
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,840
it could not be fucked with. It was like like

1056
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,359
you were like, if you were a visionist, you were

1057
01:10:18,359 --> 01:10:21,079
a proverbial ninety pound weekling, and media was Mike Tyson

1058
01:10:21,119 --> 01:10:23,800
in nineteen eighty eight. Okay, like it there's just nothing

1059
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:30,000
you could do to it, okay, and even uh, even

1060
01:10:30,239 --> 01:10:32,479
the climate was such that even even the people who

1061
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,720
are otherwise receptive you just come off like a crank okay,

1062
01:10:36,239 --> 01:10:41,800
because you know, literally like the conceptual weather system you know,

1063
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:45,680
don't invoke the metaphor again, was completely at odds with

1064
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:49,279
what you were declaring, okay, and that the degree to

1065
01:10:49,319 --> 01:10:53,319
which you know, Internet changed everything and cannot be overstated.

1066
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,119
And that's why that's why Twitter went early berzerk, you know,

1067
01:10:56,239 --> 01:10:58,960
like a few years back, and that's why Meg now,

1068
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,319
like you run an Internet. I just went in an

1069
01:11:01,399 --> 01:11:03,600
our center that searched for polio, like not even because

1070
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:05,159
I was in a discussion with a guy who does

1071
01:11:05,159 --> 01:11:08,000
a lot of research on AIDS and on like idiolog

1072
01:11:08,079 --> 01:11:14,039
itsiological like sources of disease. So I don't know, like

1073
01:11:14,119 --> 01:11:16,479
learn about polio. I didn't type in like is polio

1074
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,479
fake or something. My first result is that there is

1075
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,359
a conspiracy theory that polio was created by the government

1076
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,960
or it's like I didn't ask that, you know, It's like,

1077
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,399
so they're showing their hand, like I could probably I

1078
01:11:28,399 --> 01:11:30,640
could probably want to search like naval oranges or for

1079
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:32,479
like puppy dogs, and it would be like, you know,

1080
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:34,960
the Nazis massic puppy dogs because they were the most

1081
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:38,199
evil people ever or something like I should you not

1082
01:11:38,279 --> 01:11:41,279
it's like that extreme. But the point is like it's

1083
01:11:41,319 --> 01:11:44,640
not they're they're not even they're they're not even willing

1084
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,159
to you know, just kind of like deploy like lesions

1085
01:11:47,199 --> 01:11:51,520
of uh of like disinfo people to like you know, Twitter,

1086
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:55,760
like or do Instagram. And it's interesting and so many

1087
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,279
people doing like screen capture to like get like concepts out,

1088
01:11:59,399 --> 01:12:02,039
you know. And then I'm interested in how they're how

1089
01:12:02,039 --> 01:12:04,680
they're gonna They're already shutting stuff down into auspices of

1090
01:12:05,279 --> 01:12:07,920
you know, that's inappropriate for children or something. But it's

1091
01:12:08,159 --> 01:12:09,640
that I don't want to go too far on the topic.

1092
01:12:10,359 --> 01:12:15,119
But in the event, okay, so why is Spain and

1093
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:18,800
why did the Communists attack the clergy like this? I mean,

1094
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,760
like we know why, like in terms of you know

1095
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:24,880
why they hated the church and we know why you know,

1096
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:28,960
bullsheit at cadres if you like clergy people as standard

1097
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,840
bearers of of a counter revolutionary tendency of tremendous power,

1098
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:39,119
but just hand over fists like slaughtering clergy people. It

1099
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:45,279
seems like it's bad optics. Okay, now, for a long time,

1100
01:12:47,039 --> 01:12:50,800
what the what the elk? What the alibi was of

1101
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:55,239
the left in Spain. It was a strange transition period

1102
01:12:55,960 --> 01:12:59,239
after Franco died. Franco was elderly, but he died somewhat

1103
01:12:59,279 --> 01:13:03,800
abruptly and as you might have imagined the especially in

1104
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,159
those days, you know, in nineteen seventy five, there was

1105
01:13:06,199 --> 01:13:08,720
not a lot of news coming out of Madrid about,

1106
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:12,000
you know, the the kind of health of Franco, but

1107
01:13:12,079 --> 01:13:14,720
also too like people like like ahead of state. Now

1108
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,520
he's got he's got like doctors, like a bosass figured

1109
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:19,840
of being literally like all the time, you know, like

1110
01:13:20,399 --> 01:13:24,800
in those days, it was not like people even if

1111
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:29,319
you know, it was not clear, like what the state

1112
01:13:29,359 --> 01:13:32,399
of somebody's health was always isn't There wasn't this uh,

1113
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:36,079
there wasn't this kind of a there There wasn't this

1114
01:13:36,159 --> 01:13:39,600
kind of ongoing like revolutionary shift like there wasn't Portugal,

1115
01:13:40,039 --> 01:13:42,199
you know, like uh like sales Ar among other things,

1116
01:13:42,199 --> 01:13:44,239
averted a buddy civil war, I mean, as a topic

1117
01:13:44,239 --> 01:13:49,439
for another pod or series entirely. But Franco dies suddenly,

1118
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:51,640
it becomes clear that people aren't gonna accept you know,

1119
01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:54,800
like uh, you know, the the reinstitution of just a

1120
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:58,119
constitucial monarchy. It becomes clear that like even if Franco

1121
01:13:58,239 --> 01:14:00,560
had a successor, he wasn't gonna be up that either.

1122
01:14:01,079 --> 01:14:03,600
Spain's now like been in NATO for many years, you know,

1123
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:06,079
it was, it's been, it's been integrated, poor man in

1124
01:14:06,159 --> 01:14:08,720
Europe as it may be. It's it had been integrated

1125
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:14,960
you know for decades into the ec it uh. But

1126
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,479
there were there was like in terms like the ideological culture,

1127
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,600
there was problems, you know, especially because you know, not

1128
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,159
just going to the Cold War, but it's you know,

1129
01:14:25,399 --> 01:14:27,680
it's they weren't gonna I if they tried to pull

1130
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:31,000
like what South Africa did, you know, the Truth Reconciliation

1131
01:14:31,039 --> 01:14:35,920
Committee or something like that, that things would have deteriorated,

1132
01:14:36,399 --> 01:14:39,760
if not into you know, civil war like it would

1133
01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,560
it would it would have permanently gridlocked you know, the government,

1134
01:14:44,159 --> 01:14:46,479
the emergent government, and it would have had no legitimacy.

1135
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:50,520
But the kind of alibi was always well that was

1136
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:53,119
the Soviets doing that, you know, and the NKVD was

1137
01:14:53,159 --> 01:14:55,640
doing that, and the or these were just you know outlie,

1138
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:58,199
these these are outliers. You know, these were violent people

1139
01:14:58,239 --> 01:15:00,439
doing terrible things because this was like a bad time.

1140
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:06,319
Well interestingly, this was uh well.

1141
01:15:06,239 --> 01:15:08,640
Speaker 1: They they tried to blame they always blame it on

1142
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:10,239
the anarchists.

1143
01:15:10,079 --> 01:15:12,039
Speaker 2: That too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the that was

1144
01:15:12,079 --> 01:15:14,319
There was these anarchic cycle pass and you know, they.

1145
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 1: They were the one digging up the you know, the

1146
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:21,439
famous and taking pictures of them.

1147
01:15:22,079 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 2: But there was an incident, or there was a series

1148
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,640
of incidents, specifically from November seventh to December fourth, thirty six,

1149
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:35,399
there's this kind of a peak of of revolutionary violence, okay, uh,

1150
01:15:36,359 --> 01:15:41,760
especially in the cities and uh like the provinces immediately

1151
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:49,520
abutting the ones uh containing the cities November seventh to

1152
01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:54,239
approximate December fourth and thirty six, a bunch of political

1153
01:15:54,239 --> 01:15:57,840
prisoners helping Madrid jails. They were just spontaneously evacuated, like

1154
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:03,199
the outlying provinces. And these people were these were all

1155
01:16:03,199 --> 01:16:06,640
political prisoners, okay, like some of them had been imperisrated

1156
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:08,920
on grounds that they were anti social or something. But

1157
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,319
these these are trumped up charges. These weren't criminals, Okay,

1158
01:16:12,319 --> 01:16:16,840
that I need to make that clear. They were. They

1159
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:22,000
were evacuated over these weeks on mass and and and

1160
01:16:22,039 --> 01:16:29,119
they were they were executed. They were just exterminated. The

1161
01:16:29,159 --> 01:16:32,880
man responsible at that time for jails in public order

1162
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:38,600
was a man named Solarius, Santiago Solarius. He was all

1163
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:40,880
of twenty one years old and man he thirty six,

1164
01:16:42,119 --> 01:16:46,800
and that was part of his alibi, okay, upon return

1165
01:16:47,279 --> 01:16:51,039
from exile with the that Franco, because everybody got you know,

1166
01:16:51,119 --> 01:16:53,640
amnesty like the jury as well as like the facto.

1167
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:55,920
I mean, this was very much and then he spatter

1168
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:58,640
to live through it. We'll tell you, I'm sure this

1169
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:00,600
was very deliberate, you know, like we we've got to

1170
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,760
finesse these bad feelings and let the past become the past,

1171
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:08,399
you know, which under more ordinary circumstances would probably be

1172
01:17:08,399 --> 01:17:14,680
a laudable What the what Solario's defenders claimed the churse, Well,

1173
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:17,800
this these are just false propaganda, you know, outright, this

1174
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:23,439
just didn't happen. But then it's evidence mounted it. Uh

1175
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:29,399
you know what uh what Solarios is people themselves claimed

1176
01:17:30,039 --> 01:17:31,680
as well as kind of what the regime came to

1177
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:34,000
claim in like a soft pedaling kind of way, was

1178
01:17:34,039 --> 01:17:36,600
that well, you know there were there were there were

1179
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:40,720
extraduicial killings that were wrong, but these were arbitrary and caprecious.

1180
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:45,399
You know, extradusial killings that were were isolated incidents. You know,

1181
01:17:45,399 --> 01:17:51,680
they weren't categorical, they weren't organized well. In two thousand

1182
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:58,680
and four, historian a guy named Whereverte, Spanish historian UH.

1183
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:00,520
Kind of a right friendly guy, but like more of

1184
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:04,039
a conservative, you know, not he wasn't the guy who

1185
01:18:04,079 --> 01:18:06,920
could be just kind of dismissed as some like right winger.

1186
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:09,720
I mean it's not really that's not grounds of objective

1187
01:18:09,720 --> 01:18:12,399
grounds to dismiss somebody's findings anyway, But you don't say

1188
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:15,279
what I mean, like, this guy wasn't some idealogue with

1189
01:18:15,359 --> 01:18:20,279
the you know, the kind of milk toast regime is

1190
01:18:20,319 --> 01:18:26,600
the kind that you know can be only kind of

1191
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:29,239
regime in Europe after the Cold War? Would you can

1192
01:18:29,319 --> 01:18:34,319
kind of dismiss the He began digging into the archives

1193
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:42,880
of UH, the UH, the Iberian Anarchist Federation and the

1194
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:49,199
National Confederation of Labor which united at some point prior

1195
01:18:49,239 --> 01:18:53,560
to the onset of hostilities. And there are archives were

1196
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:56,680
house in Amsterdam where I believe and I'm not trying

1197
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:59,640
to sit Dutch people. But there's there's a lot of

1198
01:19:01,399 --> 01:19:04,720
there was a lot of communist cadre and revolutionary party

1199
01:19:07,079 --> 01:19:10,960
archives and sensitive documents housed in Holland. Okay, I don't

1200
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:13,199
know why that is, but that I don't that can't

1201
01:19:13,239 --> 01:19:18,359
be disputed. Okay, that's why these documents are located there.

1202
01:19:23,319 --> 01:19:27,319
Where Verite discovered the literal minutes of meeting, you know,

1203
01:19:27,359 --> 01:19:35,079
between the Iberian Federation field commanders and the nationally federational

1204
01:19:35,159 --> 01:19:39,439
labor like security element, and they literally described a classification

1205
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:45,079
protocol for who should be exterminated just on categorical terms. Okay,

1206
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:49,680
And these people who were evacuated, these political detainees, they

1207
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:52,239
all fell into that category. Right. These are people are

1208
01:19:52,239 --> 01:19:55,520
identified as fascist sympathetic, you know, people who were you know,

1209
01:19:56,039 --> 01:19:58,520
lay people in the calyp Church who had some role

1210
01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:03,960
people just denounced, you know. And this was something of

1211
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:06,680
a mini scandal, I mean, not just in academic quarters,

1212
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:11,479
but because even even up two, you know, and unfree

1213
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:14,720
as occupied Europe is like Spain's kind of a different thing,

1214
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:18,159
not just because it's not directly occupied by America, but

1215
01:20:18,239 --> 01:20:20,319
it's you know, it wasn't a direct combat into World

1216
01:20:20,319 --> 01:20:24,199
War Two. It's you know, there was more. I'm not

1217
01:20:24,239 --> 01:20:25,720
gonna go as far First of all, I'm not an

1218
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:28,359
expert in the culture at all, but and I'm certainly

1219
01:20:28,399 --> 01:20:30,439
not gonna go as far as to say that, you know,

1220
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:33,920
Spain is a more kind of reasoned view of historical matters.

1221
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:39,000
But it's different, you know, that can't be denied. And

1222
01:20:39,039 --> 01:20:42,279
as I've dived deeper into this, that becomes clear, Like

1223
01:20:42,359 --> 01:20:46,239
the historical controversies of Spain, you know, so they're a

1224
01:20:46,279 --> 01:20:52,880
buttle to this, uh evidence. There's a leftist historian named

1225
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:58,039
uh anghell Venas Venus claimed like, well, yeah, this happened

1226
01:20:58,239 --> 01:21:01,279
these these dimnutes from the meeting, that not that not

1227
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:05,840
you know, a forgery. However, He's like, this was we

1228
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:07,520
were on we were being ordered to do this by

1229
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,199
the Soviet you know, like our predecessors, you know, they

1230
01:21:10,199 --> 01:21:11,960
were being ordered to do this by the Soviet Union.

1231
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,479
And the man primarily colored build was a man named

1232
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:19,479
Alexander Orlov. Who's Elexander Orlov. Well he was the chief

1233
01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:25,640
of the nkv D in Spain. Okay, so, okay, there's

1234
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:28,560
problems with an alibi for a lot of reasons. It's like, okay,

1235
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:31,000
if you're under let's say, let's say that's undredercent correct. Okay,

1236
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:33,520
so you're under duress. Why was there an nkv D

1237
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:36,920
in Spain? I mean like there was there literally was

1238
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:39,880
an mkv D office in Spain, you know, and it

1239
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:45,319
you know, uh, I mean that raises questions of its own.

1240
01:21:45,399 --> 01:21:47,439
It's like, okay, well they got there somehow are he's saying,

1241
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,560
the Soviet Union invaded Spain. You know, you were powerless

1242
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:53,840
to resist them, you know, they they you invited the

1243
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:56,239
men to help you fight against a fascist coup that

1244
01:21:56,319 --> 01:21:58,239
was burgen thing, but then they took over. I mean,

1245
01:21:58,239 --> 01:22:03,039
this isn't it's not as this is preposterous, but I

1246
01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:05,119
mean in some ways it's worse than what what the

1247
01:22:05,119 --> 01:22:09,880
initial allegation was, you know. But it also it cuts

1248
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:13,359
against to your point, like the alibi for the preceding

1249
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:17,760
you know, sixty seventy years had been well that was that,

1250
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:19,640
that was these that was these anarchists who were pragically

1251
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:21,479
fascists themselves. They had nothing to do with us, and

1252
01:22:21,600 --> 01:22:24,000
these were just crazy people. You know. It's like okay,

1253
01:22:24,039 --> 01:22:26,680
so now not now you were acting under orders of

1254
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:28,880
the Soviets and not of the Soviets, but the n

1255
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:32,119
k v D. And like you had Russian officers who

1256
01:22:32,119 --> 01:22:36,159
had you know, who are cadres who who had authority

1257
01:22:36,199 --> 01:22:38,159
over your own people in the field, Like what is this?

1258
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:41,640
You know, like I weren't weren't you all a bunch

1259
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:43,720
of once you are a bunch of liberal democrats and

1260
01:22:44,560 --> 01:22:47,880
you know, uh, and that's why and people love freedom

1261
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:50,159
like joined to go to go to go fight against

1262
01:22:50,239 --> 01:22:52,960
the fascists. I mean, like it's this like, on the

1263
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:56,760
one hand, on i'd say this, I'd say that this

1264
01:22:56,840 --> 01:22:59,319
guy is not particularly credible, but again it's that in

1265
01:22:59,439 --> 01:23:02,920
some ways that's more incriminating than what than the prima

1266
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:07,840
fati inferenced one would draw from documents. But it also

1267
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,439
too when I a friend of mine made this point

1268
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:16,039
when he and I were discussing this, and uh, you know,

1269
01:23:16,119 --> 01:23:18,359
he's he's got a law background, like guy who I mean,

1270
01:23:19,039 --> 01:23:21,119
maybe this is our kind of like bias in common

1271
01:23:21,159 --> 01:23:24,119
for how we approach evidence. But he's like, you know,

1272
01:23:25,319 --> 01:23:29,760
he's like, there's a if you're that cavalier about like

1273
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:32,520
who you're gonna categorically annihilate? You know, we're talking about

1274
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:35,359
non combatants and we're not. We're not using euphemisms like

1275
01:23:35,399 --> 01:23:37,960
these people are bandits or these are you know, partisans.

1276
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:41,319
You know, we're not we're not using the language of

1277
01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:43,560
like me LII four and like saying, well, these people

1278
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:46,039
are insurgents, like conveniently like leaving out you know, like

1279
01:23:46,079 --> 01:23:49,159
their age, sex or or overall health. You're just like

1280
01:23:49,199 --> 01:23:52,479
literally talking about like, okay, people identified under these categories

1281
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:55,960
just poltical detainees, you know, there to be terminated, Like

1282
01:23:56,399 --> 01:23:59,640
you're very very confident, uh that this is never gonna

1283
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:04,359
come to life. You know, it's basically you're you're not

1284
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:08,840
worried about being taken to task after you know, General

1285
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:14,960
Franco or you know, or his German allies roll over

1286
01:24:15,039 --> 01:24:17,159
you and and then and then put you on trial

1287
01:24:17,199 --> 01:24:19,439
for this or like you know, put two rounds in

1288
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:22,520
the back of your head as payback, or just because

1289
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:25,960
you know you're you've obviously you know, you're obviously an

1290
01:24:25,960 --> 01:24:32,920
irredeemable partisan, you know. And his point was that these

1291
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:36,000
people had assurances from the Soviet Union from day one,

1292
01:24:36,199 --> 01:24:38,199
like don't worry about it, We're not going to let

1293
01:24:38,279 --> 01:24:44,560
you lose. And I think that's a correct interpretation, Okay,

1294
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:47,199
I couldn't prove it in a corel of law. But

1295
01:24:49,399 --> 01:24:51,159
you know, one thing you don't find. You don't find

1296
01:24:51,159 --> 01:24:55,439
the Soviet Union like issuing, you know, in ninety thirty nine,

1297
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,960
you know, issuing telegrams to to field commanders about like

1298
01:25:00,119 --> 01:25:04,359
annihilating a non combatants at Cantyan. You don't find Heyrich

1299
01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:08,920
Himmler saying like, you know, hey, by the way, you

1300
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:12,199
know these people this is a race war, and like

1301
01:25:12,239 --> 01:25:15,039
these people are categorical enemies. So I'm gonna put on paper.

1302
01:25:15,119 --> 01:25:17,239
I just think you should waste them all, you know.

1303
01:25:17,399 --> 01:25:19,720
I mean, this is remarkable for a lot of reasons. Okay,

1304
01:25:21,239 --> 01:25:22,399
I can I ask you a question?

1305
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:29,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that the Soviet Union was planning

1306
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:33,199
on winning the war and staying there? I mean Orloff

1307
01:25:33,399 --> 01:25:37,199
was the one who took all of the Spanish gold

1308
01:25:37,239 --> 01:25:40,760
to Moscow, right, and they and they bragged, and Stalin

1309
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:42,840
bragged about how it was going to be a robbery.

1310
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:48,079
And then Orloff in thirty eight has to defect because

1311
01:25:49,319 --> 01:25:53,479
Stalin starts his purge of you know, a certain religious group.

1312
01:25:54,199 --> 01:25:58,600
Speaker 2: Right. What I think is, I mean, you get the

1313
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:01,840
way the Soviet Union looked at the I basically agree

1314
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:05,640
with Suberov's hypothesis. I think jackham Hoffman makes a better

1315
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:14,199
case for it in purely strategic terms and like practical terms,

1316
01:26:14,239 --> 01:26:18,479
pragmatic terms. Okay, Stalin had to show up to fight

1317
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,279
in Spain, otherwise he would have lost all credibility, as

1318
01:26:21,359 --> 01:26:25,520
you know, like the Soviet people would have lost all credibility,

1319
01:26:25,520 --> 01:26:28,079
as like you know that the vanguard of like the

1320
01:26:28,119 --> 01:26:31,840
World Revolution and like as we discussed before, and it

1321
01:26:31,880 --> 01:26:36,119
kind of currents wey capacity people misunderstand socialism in one country.

1322
01:26:36,399 --> 01:26:38,560
And what Stalin was trying, what he meant by that

1323
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:41,880
in literal terms, and what he was trying to project

1324
01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:44,319
by that in a sort of dog whistle away, Like

1325
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:47,119
he wasn't saying like we have abandoned the World Revolution

1326
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:49,520
or that like we are some kind of like antarctic

1327
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,079
inward looking state, like a giant North Korea. You have

1328
01:26:52,159 --> 01:26:55,560
not saying those things at all. Okay, You've got to

1329
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,159
be pretty well versed to releasing the rudimentary capacity. You've

1330
01:26:58,159 --> 01:27:01,520
got to understand like what orthan like Leninism is to

1331
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:05,600
understand what he was saying, and you've got to understand

1332
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:09,640
why the Soviet people like what on what basis they

1333
01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:12,279
were claiming, you know, to to be like the first

1334
01:27:12,279 --> 01:27:15,319
among nations, like in the Social Revolution. That's the connext

1335
01:27:15,399 --> 01:27:19,239
with which to understand it. Spain was where like the

1336
01:27:19,279 --> 01:27:24,439
battle lines were drawn. Spain is where you know, the

1337
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:28,479
Bolsheviks collided, you know with the true like reactionary enemy

1338
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,640
like the Soviets had to show up to fight. What

1339
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:33,800
I think Stalin thought he could do was he thought

1340
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:38,039
the NKVD people like or a of people like Eric Milk.

1341
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:43,239
He thought that basically like uh, you know, he could

1342
01:27:43,319 --> 01:27:47,520
arm and equip uh the Reds other thing they needed. Uh.

1343
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:50,600
The Nationalists didn't really have a pot to piss in until

1344
01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:56,600
uh Milch and Gary came to rescue, you know, after uh,

1345
01:27:56,960 --> 01:28:01,720
after Canari's uh act is emissary for Franco's people, you know,

1346
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:03,600
and then and then the Reds had a problem. But

1347
01:28:04,319 --> 01:28:07,359
you know, the view from Moscow was, uh, you know,

1348
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:11,439
the the kind of revolutionaries, you know, the Falanges, uh,

1349
01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:15,239
the national Catholics, the Carlos, They're gonna get smashed. We're

1350
01:28:15,239 --> 01:28:16,840
gonna mop up. And if we have to stack a

1351
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:19,760
million bodies up, a priest non as Falangist and anybody

1352
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:23,319
else who's not with the program will do that. The

1353
01:28:23,359 --> 01:28:27,640
Germans are then gonna freak the fuck out, you know,

1354
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:32,319
uh and anything, especially because uh, you know Spain and

1355
01:28:32,399 --> 01:28:36,439
France it already like openly declared you know, sympathy if

1356
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:39,960
not you know, allegiance, you know with the with the Reds,

1357
01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:42,680
that was going to exacerbate, you know, like the war

1358
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:47,279
in the West that Stalin always believe was imminent. The uh,

1359
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:51,199
the Germans are gonna get bogged down like they did

1360
01:28:51,239 --> 01:28:56,560
in nineteen fourteen, as like Germany bleeds white, like Stalin

1361
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:58,560
and the Red Army was gonna like smash from the

1362
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:02,439
through from the east. You know. That was like ideally

1363
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:06,399
would have happened, you know, but it wasn't. But just

1364
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:10,600
Stalin wasn't ready yet. And that's that's that's something that

1365
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:15,840
the non aggression pack owes to also because there's this

1366
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:20,439
odd situation where I mean once once the Vermont actually

1367
01:29:20,479 --> 01:29:21,840
did deploy and like I said, we'll get into like

1368
01:29:21,920 --> 01:29:25,840
Montoma's uh like ground element too, which is fascinating. Like

1369
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:28,000
the Germans were the Germans were fighting in Spain, it

1370
01:29:28,039 --> 01:29:30,199
wasn't just you know, it was just like loof off

1371
01:29:30,359 --> 01:29:32,960
like hot shots, like flying a handle with sorties, like

1372
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:35,760
you know, you had very much elements like going into

1373
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:39,199
ground action against the communists they were killing Russians, Okay,

1374
01:29:39,199 --> 01:29:46,000
and vice versa. Potentially that's explosive, you know, but again

1375
01:29:46,039 --> 01:29:48,920
too like a non aggression pack, only only as a

1376
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:51,319
context that you're careening towards war anyway, I mean like

1377
01:29:51,399 --> 01:29:55,119
it Otherwise it doesn't make sense, but it I believe

1378
01:29:55,159 --> 01:30:00,840
that was Stalin's notion. But it's also the uh, the

1379
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:04,239
Soviets for the durationem of their existence. I mean, people

1380
01:30:04,319 --> 01:30:06,039
like like to look down in the Russians and like

1381
01:30:06,079 --> 01:30:08,079
make fun of them and stuff, and I mean whatever,

1382
01:30:08,239 --> 01:30:10,840
Like I I'm not gonna open up some kind of

1383
01:30:10,840 --> 01:30:13,960
general general discussion about like the character of Russians or whatever.

1384
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:17,199
But they the Russians are serious people, man, and like

1385
01:30:17,279 --> 01:30:20,560
they like whate their shortcomings are, like in war in peace,

1386
01:30:21,359 --> 01:30:24,520
they're really really good at intriguing and they're really really

1387
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:30,560
good at insinuating their people into them into proxy uh

1388
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:34,239
elements that serve their interests and kind of like fortifying

1389
01:30:34,279 --> 01:30:38,399
and shaping those interests the way they want them to develop. Okay.

1390
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:41,359
I mean examples are Legion. Okay, like right until the

1391
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:44,800
end they were doing this in in you know, in

1392
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:48,039
nicaraugu and I'll sell it or you know like they

1393
01:30:48,199 --> 01:30:51,880
which frankly was incredible because that was that that would

1394
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:55,199
have been, that would have that would have been like

1395
01:30:55,239 --> 01:30:57,319
the feather in their cap, you know, like, hey, we've

1396
01:30:57,319 --> 01:31:00,479
got you know, we've we've got actual like us Lennon

1397
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:03,399
as client regimes. You know, I got on the American continent.

1398
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:05,439
There's nothing America can do about it, you know, without

1399
01:31:05,479 --> 01:31:08,279
waging some kind of jungle war with you know, half

1400
01:31:08,319 --> 01:31:11,399
of half the country is in the Panama zone. But

1401
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:14,920
he hasn't mad like That's that's what I believe the

1402
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:21,399
Soviet notion was. And when when the Reds got the

1403
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:23,399
first of all in Germany came in like in the

1404
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,159
with when it deployed in depth the way it did,

1405
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:29,720
I don't think Stalin got very worried. I don't think

1406
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:31,520
he knew that the Germans were capable of that. I

1407
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:33,920
don't think a lot of people did. And plus it

1408
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:36,399
was that's when Gering was like his best. Arguably he

1409
01:31:36,439 --> 01:31:39,159
was an attic then and he but he he still

1410
01:31:39,159 --> 01:31:41,399
had it together like Erard Millerts, who I think was

1411
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:43,840
the best. He was Eron Mills is one of the

1412
01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,920
best field marshals the Germans had. The guy was like

1413
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:50,039
a literal genius, you know, and he later like he's

1414
01:31:50,039 --> 01:31:54,560
the guy relieved the beleaguer Hrmacht and Norway and like

1415
01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:58,079
literally saved the day, you know, like hevon Toma was

1416
01:31:58,079 --> 01:31:59,439
one of the was one of the was one of

1417
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:03,079
the armies best freaking commanders. Like these guys, these weren't

1418
01:32:03,119 --> 01:32:06,479
like second Raiders who were going to fight in Spain.

1419
01:32:06,600 --> 01:32:09,399
And you know, these were these guys who like the

1420
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:12,000
Kareama like they hear on the Loofaffa, you know, like

1421
01:32:12,039 --> 01:32:15,199
at that point, and they they they they had a

1422
01:32:15,239 --> 01:32:17,479
they very much had a sense of h and they're

1423
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:19,520
very gung hole guys. You know, they're like, hey, we're

1424
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:20,920
going to fight the Rets. You know, We're not there's

1425
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:23,399
in some stupid war rope into against France because like

1426
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:25,640
we're always dealing with the French or something or it's

1427
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:28,239
not you know, it's not making meat and border dispute,

1428
01:32:28,319 --> 01:32:30,399
like we're fighting the communists, Like this is it, you know,

1429
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:33,239
like this is this is uh, this is our chance

1430
01:32:33,319 --> 01:32:36,159
to to smash these people, you know, like after they've

1431
01:32:36,159 --> 01:32:38,479
been racking up victories, you know, for the last last

1432
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:44,119
twenty years. You know it, but it's hard to say.

1433
01:32:44,119 --> 01:32:46,399
I mean, Stalin playthings close to the chest. I mean

1434
01:32:48,640 --> 01:32:51,119
what Stalin did say, and like we've got into both

1435
01:32:51,119 --> 01:32:54,880
in the last episode on the Spanish War. But you know,

1436
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:58,800
in our UH, in our Second World War series throughout

1437
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:02,399
the nineteen thirties, Stalin addressing UH, like particularly cadres and

1438
01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:04,760
general officers in the Red Army and kind of like

1439
01:33:05,399 --> 01:33:09,119
feeling them out, you know, as as a group, you know,

1440
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:11,800
to see like really if they were like battle ready,

1441
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:16,880
you know, in a general war against Germany. I mean,

1442
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:19,439
Germany's always like Russia's proble opponent, but you know what

1443
01:33:19,439 --> 01:33:22,920
I mean, like in more concrete terms. But then it

1444
01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:25,720
was after about it was about nineteen thirty seven, ninety

1445
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:29,000
thirty eight that like suddenly Stealins are talking about like,

1446
01:33:29,159 --> 01:33:32,439
look like you know, our doctrine, our our political doction

1447
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:34,880
in our battle doctrine is anonymous, you know, like we

1448
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:37,680
we we never fight defensively, like we always fight on

1449
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:40,760
foreign soil unless like you know, we're we're affecting you know,

1450
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:43,840
like a fighting retreat because we're expstentially threatened, you know,

1451
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:47,920
like the uh, like you know, like the Bolshevik cause

1452
01:33:48,039 --> 01:33:50,920
is inextricably linked, you know, to the to the Russian

1453
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:54,720
national ambitions. We started talking like a world word, you know,

1454
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:58,439
we started talking to uh, you know, like you started.

1455
01:33:58,479 --> 01:34:01,880
He started issuing these like procles from on high, you know,

1456
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:05,560
just to Soviet people, you know about like we've got

1457
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:07,760
you know, we can we can withstand any hardship and

1458
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:11,640
you know we we we can never like lose lose

1459
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:13,960
our faith and in the Communist cause, like no matter

1460
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:16,159
how grim things are for us moving forward, It's like,

1461
01:34:16,159 --> 01:34:17,920
what was he talking about? He's not He's not He's

1462
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,520
not talking about like breadlines getting longer. He's not talking

1463
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:23,000
about it being really cold, mixt winner you know, he's

1464
01:34:23,199 --> 01:34:27,039
it's obvious what he's talking about. And it and Gearing

1465
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:35,159
it was thirty seven. I think when Gearing as uh,

1466
01:34:36,359 --> 01:34:38,079
you know, he he went with like the loof off

1467
01:34:38,119 --> 01:34:41,680
of like military liaison you know, to these to these

1468
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:44,239
to this aircraft factory in the you're alls, and like

1469
01:34:44,359 --> 01:34:48,159
the single aircraft factory had like quadrupled the capacity of

1470
01:34:48,199 --> 01:34:51,159
like all German aircraft factories combined. Like I mean, you

1471
01:34:51,199 --> 01:34:53,439
don't you don't build something like that like unless they're

1472
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:56,359
mobilizing for war, you know, I mean it's so I

1473
01:34:56,439 --> 01:35:01,920
mean taken together it and with storians, including Bevar, they'll

1474
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:03,880
always say like, well, of course the Soviet you know,

1475
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:07,279
the Soviets, they tried to cast the war. They could

1476
01:35:07,279 --> 01:35:10,439
try to guess warfare generally is like a schoolyard fight, like, oh, well,

1477
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:12,680
you know, the Germans struck first. It's like, I mean,

1478
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:14,960
it's like saying that, like as like calling somebody who

1479
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:18,159
moves first and chess the aggressor okay, like it doesn't

1480
01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:22,319
the Soviets, there's no such thing. If you've got if

1481
01:35:22,319 --> 01:35:24,720
you've got five million men out their arms and you know,

1482
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:28,479
you're building military aircraft by the hundreds, like there's not

1483
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:30,880
there's not a defensive purpose for those. I mean, there's

1484
01:35:31,359 --> 01:35:33,399
defense and an offensive war doesn't make sense anyway, but

1485
01:35:33,479 --> 01:35:36,880
it all that matters and strategic planning, his capabilities, and

1486
01:35:37,439 --> 01:35:40,760
what Stalin was doing was he was amassing he was

1487
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:43,680
amassing the mightiest military force the world has ever seen.

1488
01:35:44,359 --> 01:35:46,960
And then made the point once once the stories developed

1489
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:49,359
the bomb, even after the devastation of World War two,

1490
01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:51,720
I believe Stalin was the single most powerful man who's

1491
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:56,439
ever lived. Okay, people can't conceptualize that these days, I

1492
01:35:56,479 --> 01:36:04,399
don't think. Okay, but that's what uh, that's what I think. Uh,

1493
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:06,319
that's that's what I think we might understand it was.

1494
01:36:06,359 --> 01:36:10,520
But it's also you know, it bears noticing too that

1495
01:36:13,079 --> 01:36:17,359
there was obviously, you know, like during uh uh you know,

1496
01:36:17,399 --> 01:36:21,159
the Munich Soviet and during link the Weimar years. I

1497
01:36:21,199 --> 01:36:24,239
know that, like Trotsky's forces had gotten spanked in Poland,

1498
01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:27,760
and obviously the Soviets were like arming those cadres like

1499
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:31,640
cause you know, havoc in Germany. But it's not you

1500
01:36:31,680 --> 01:36:34,359
know that the n KVD wasn't deploying to Munich, you know,

1501
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:38,000
like I mean, it wasn't like the Soviets were, regardless

1502
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:43,319
of the fact that you know, again, uh, Soviet Soviet

1503
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:46,760
control is invoked as an alibi by apologists for communist

1504
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:51,920
violence in Spain, regardless of that, and regardless of degree

1505
01:36:51,960 --> 01:36:55,479
of culpability and relative or absolute terms between the Red

1506
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:59,800
Spaniards in between the Soviet cadres, the Soviet Union had

1507
01:37:00,359 --> 01:37:03,880
an actual NKVD branch there, you know, they had it

1508
01:37:04,079 --> 01:37:07,159
beyond like nominal like political representation just to be like

1509
01:37:07,199 --> 01:37:10,560
relaying to Moscow the battlefield situation was, you know, like this,

1510
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:13,640
this was not normal for the Soviet Union, and I

1511
01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:16,039
realized the Soviet news and the abnormal state. But in

1512
01:37:16,079 --> 01:37:20,479
terms of its power, projection, tendencies and strategy, it this

1513
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:23,439
was an outlier in terms of how it usually behaved.

1514
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:28,239
So you know, again I I think like a lawyer

1515
01:37:28,479 --> 01:37:30,920
in terms of the evidence I favor and in terms

1516
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:35,399
of the way I calculate intention, particularly in war and

1517
01:37:35,479 --> 01:37:41,119
peace terms. But motive means and motive that means an opportunity.

1518
01:37:42,159 --> 01:37:45,039
It tends to be how you convinced the try refect

1519
01:37:45,119 --> 01:37:53,159
of scientier. The court room is not uh bound by

1520
01:37:53,319 --> 01:37:56,520
formal logic or anything. But we're talking about human affairs.

1521
01:37:56,680 --> 01:37:58,600
There is something to that, you know, whether you're talking

1522
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:02,840
about individual men or were at scale. And again I

1523
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:05,840
I I don't think this can be denied. And even

1524
01:38:06,600 --> 01:38:11,159
even where their conspiguous absence of some of this, some

1525
01:38:11,279 --> 01:38:15,960
of this data of an entry data. Again, the Soviets

1526
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:18,960
couldn't afford to not fight in Spain did over the

1527
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:22,479
Third Reich. But even more so for the Soviets, the

1528
01:38:23,720 --> 01:38:29,760
uh did sit out World War One, and that interestingly,

1529
01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:35,399
that that that contributed in in oblique ways to the

1530
01:38:35,439 --> 01:38:39,560
political situation in the thirties, Spain was a weird state.

1531
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:41,319
Man Like. On the one hand, I mean, Spain had

1532
01:38:41,359 --> 01:38:44,399
an African empire, you know, they had They couldn't be

1533
01:38:44,439 --> 01:38:47,079
said that Spain wasn't like a place of high culture.

1534
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:50,800
But they became this, you know, and again like they

1535
01:38:51,039 --> 01:38:53,439
literally were like the first truly like national state in

1536
01:38:53,479 --> 01:39:02,199
Europe despite their kind of inextricable relationship to the Roman

1537
01:39:02,319 --> 01:39:06,399
Church in political terms, but they were something they weren't

1538
01:39:06,399 --> 01:39:08,479
are something of an inward looking people. You know, they

1539
01:39:08,520 --> 01:39:11,479
weren't practicing a global politique or even really a European

1540
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:16,720
power politique, you know, like they there became an an

1541
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:19,720
unprecedented demand for Spanish goods during World War One because

1542
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:22,199
they were a neutral, but the influx of capital like

1543
01:39:22,319 --> 01:39:24,880
caused all kinds of problems with they're already you know,

1544
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:30,640
kind of troubled currencies. It swelled the cities, which I

1545
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:36,880
mean is this the cities were were were you know,

1546
01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:39,000
they were the repository of red sympathy. But it's not

1547
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:40,560
as clear cut as people think, man. I mean, there

1548
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:44,600
was national districts in Madrid and in Barcelona, and uh

1549
01:39:45,039 --> 01:39:46,319
there was also I mean, there were there was a

1550
01:39:47,399 --> 01:39:50,840
there were there's people, there's guys, there's Catalan secessionists. We're

1551
01:39:50,880 --> 01:39:53,079
just like catching their wag into the Communists because like

1552
01:39:53,119 --> 01:39:54,840
they they thought that, hey, if we fight and like

1553
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,399
issue this is our demand, you know too, like the cadres,

1554
01:39:57,399 --> 01:39:58,720
they'll have to give it to us. I mean it

1555
01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:02,039
was it was kind of a alligated pastiche. But another thing,

1556
01:40:02,039 --> 01:40:04,560
guys like Beeborn mist understand it makes the point that

1557
01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:08,560
he's like, well, you know, why, why why why Spain

1558
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:11,079
gets still behind the Gallic church and gets so outraged

1559
01:40:11,119 --> 01:40:14,159
at the mask of a clergy. Only twenty percent of

1560
01:40:14,199 --> 01:40:16,479
people went to church. It's like you can't you can't

1561
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:20,319
adjudicate like the kind of the conceptual spirit for like

1562
01:40:20,319 --> 01:40:24,039
a better word of a country and a culture, like

1563
01:40:24,119 --> 01:40:26,920
by how many people are like sitting in pews on Sunday.

1564
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:31,119
Like even the way the Communists framed their propaganda was

1565
01:40:31,119 --> 01:40:33,720
like Catholic. It was like a perverted iteration of it.

1566
01:40:34,279 --> 01:40:38,159
Speaker 1: But I mean, the the Inquisition didn't end until eighteen fourteen,

1567
01:40:38,239 --> 01:40:44,279
eighteen fifteen, and the Catholic Church was basically the courts

1568
01:40:44,760 --> 01:40:49,479
up until then. You know, they weren't they weren't the executioners,

1569
01:40:49,920 --> 01:40:51,760
but yeah, they were the court. Yeah yeah.

1570
01:40:51,760 --> 01:40:54,119
Speaker 2: And it's also even a guy who like even in

1571
01:40:54,159 --> 01:40:56,000
a guy the only time he'd been in church was

1572
01:40:56,039 --> 01:40:59,039
like when he was baptized and like his mom's funeral

1573
01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:01,560
like that, I would like view the world in like

1574
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:03,920
Catholic terms, And he'd look at the church as like,

1575
01:41:04,359 --> 01:41:07,680
you know, kind of the the instantation of like, you know,

1576
01:41:07,800 --> 01:41:12,000
God's authority on earth, you know, like it's not there's

1577
01:41:12,359 --> 01:41:14,439
I don't know Bieber's background. I bet that like a

1578
01:41:14,479 --> 01:41:16,399
lot of Tories is like a Church of England type

1579
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:21,520
and he he doesn't really understand like like faith. It's

1580
01:41:21,560 --> 01:41:25,000
like a conceptual sort of orientation. He probably use Americans

1581
01:41:25,039 --> 01:41:26,880
as like a bunch of rednecks like me who like

1582
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:29,039
read the Bible all day and or idiots, and he

1583
01:41:29,119 --> 01:41:31,399
use Catholics as like well they some of them don't

1584
01:41:31,399 --> 01:41:33,840
even go to church, like not not even not understanding that.

1585
01:41:33,880 --> 01:41:37,680
It's like it's something that's like interstitially bound up with

1586
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:39,960
like your entire sense of culture, like you know, I mean,

1587
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:43,079
you understand this, but it's it didn't matter that, uh,

1588
01:41:44,279 --> 01:41:47,239
it didn't it didn't matter that like most that that

1589
01:41:47,399 --> 01:41:49,680
that most people weren't going to church. I mean it's

1590
01:41:50,119 --> 01:41:53,439
but it's also too I mean even if I mean

1591
01:41:53,479 --> 01:41:57,479
even if uh you know, the action French say, uh

1592
01:41:58,239 --> 01:42:00,479
during their zenith, you know, they kind of they got

1593
01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:03,560
they got kind of edged out by like later like

1594
01:42:03,680 --> 01:42:11,319
fascist and nationalists, uh militias in France. But you know,

1595
01:42:11,359 --> 01:42:13,760
they they always made the point that like we're we're

1596
01:42:13,840 --> 01:42:15,960
like a secular movement, but that doesn't mean you can

1597
01:42:15,960 --> 01:42:19,079
attack the Mother Church, you know. I mean they they

1598
01:42:19,279 --> 01:42:21,920
were willing to go to war to like protect uh

1599
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:25,800
you know, the Roman Church as uh as like the

1600
01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:28,720
state religion of of of like what they viewed as

1601
01:42:28,760 --> 01:42:32,159
like you know, the the ideal like French Republic moving forward.

1602
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:35,600
You know, like I'm trying to say, like Italy, where

1603
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:37,840
a lot of people did go to church, but it'll

1604
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:40,520
like the Kingdom of Italy under a Duce was basically

1605
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:43,319
a secular society. You know, it didn't matter that like

1606
01:42:43,399 --> 01:42:45,720
you know, half of Italians were like in church every Sunday,

1607
01:42:46,279 --> 01:42:48,159
you know, I mean, it's it was totally different. And

1608
01:42:48,239 --> 01:42:50,960
it's you know, like I said, it's it's something of

1609
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:54,960
a it's something of a blind spot. It's it's somewhat

1610
01:42:54,960 --> 01:42:57,960
political and like deliberate and ideological, but it's something it's

1611
01:42:58,039 --> 01:42:59,840
part of it too. It's like a cultural blind spot

1612
01:43:00,680 --> 01:43:03,039
in this thing like too like it. You know, it's

1613
01:43:03,039 --> 01:43:06,479
been redacted from this druga record that there's a huge

1614
01:43:06,560 --> 01:43:09,800
outpouring of uh support for the nationalists cause in Ireland

1615
01:43:10,520 --> 01:43:14,600
and uh the regime there of vale Era, like he

1616
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:18,760
had a problem he had to finish public opinion when

1617
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:22,079
I mean Ireland, just like the cleared outright neutrality on

1618
01:43:22,079 --> 01:43:29,000
the on the question m a lot of even a

1619
01:43:29,039 --> 01:43:32,279
lot of voters, you know, uh in the Republic who

1620
01:43:32,319 --> 01:43:34,399
are basically like liberals, like why aren't you going to

1621
01:43:34,399 --> 01:43:36,319
defend the church? What's the matter with you? You know? And

1622
01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:38,520
uh and the blue shirts, you know, Duffy's blue shirts

1623
01:43:38,560 --> 01:43:40,479
mean two and three thousand men signed up to go

1624
01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:42,600
fight on the nationalist side, like all irishmen, I mean

1625
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:46,239
Irons entire Ireland is a tiny country. That's significant, you know.

1626
01:43:46,279 --> 01:43:49,960
And in America, Cathlic media they give up signatures of

1627
01:43:50,039 --> 01:43:52,439
school kids, you know, like they they got something like

1628
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:54,720
a million and a half signatures, like kids like progo

1629
01:43:54,760 --> 01:43:57,239
school kids you know, saying like mister Rosevelt, while let

1630
01:43:57,279 --> 01:43:59,760
it while we we love our sisters and and and

1631
01:43:59,760 --> 01:44:02,479
and freeze, why why letting them be murdered by communists?

1632
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:05,199
You know, I mean like that, and and obviously like

1633
01:44:05,239 --> 01:44:07,079
New Geork types like I was just you know that

1634
01:44:07,079 --> 01:44:09,920
that that's you know that that's that that's exploitative, and

1635
01:44:09,960 --> 01:44:15,359
that's that's just you know, propaganda by by by atrocity story.

1636
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:17,880
But I mean it's what he's saying that this wasn't happening.

1637
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:20,039
I mean, you know, the the Gallix Church doesn't have

1638
01:44:20,039 --> 01:44:23,079
its own army. Stalin's famously said that, Okay, I mean

1639
01:44:23,159 --> 01:44:27,840
like if you uh, the the church militant, it has

1640
01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:30,199
to defend it, you know, I mean, and that's it,

1641
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:32,880
you know, as well as like as other as well

1642
01:44:32,920 --> 01:44:35,680
as other you know, as well as other patriotic elements

1643
01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:39,960
and and Orthodox guys and and you know in German

1644
01:44:40,039 --> 01:44:44,439
prads who you know, realized what the stakes were. But

1645
01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:48,840
it's also during the Great during World War One, there

1646
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:53,880
there became h there became like a deep uh that's

1647
01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:58,039
when the divisions originally uh kind of became like insurmountable.

1648
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:01,680
Like it wasn't until the nineteen thre already, it wasn't

1649
01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:03,600
until like the night that even the nine thirty sixth election,

1650
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,000
you actually had candidates for parliament saying, you know, like

1651
01:45:07,239 --> 01:45:10,279
we will not accept you know, like uh a nationalist

1652
01:45:10,319 --> 01:45:12,119
victory at the polls, like, well we will go to

1653
01:45:12,199 --> 01:45:21,439
war and vice versa. But the uh people uh military officers, UH, farmers,

1654
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:25,439
you know, people uh like clergy, people like laymen, we're

1655
01:45:25,439 --> 01:45:28,640
activing the church, they tended to side with uh like

1656
01:45:28,840 --> 01:45:32,199
kaiser Reich, you know, and uh and and these kind

1657
01:45:32,199 --> 01:45:35,680
of and these guys like urbanite uh Franco file types

1658
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:39,640
like tend to decide with uh, you know, with with

1659
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:43,039
with London, Paris, which is interesting. It's uh. I mean

1660
01:45:43,079 --> 01:45:44,640
I I was making the point that, like the war

1661
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:46,600
in Syria, one of the reasons, I mean, Sod's a

1662
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:48,640
hero anyway, I mean, he's just a great man. But

1663
01:45:49,039 --> 01:45:50,720
it was imperative for people on the right, you know,

1664
01:45:50,800 --> 01:45:55,359
to to back Syria anyway they could, you know, in theater,

1665
01:45:55,640 --> 01:45:57,880
uh and as well as you know, people in a

1666
01:45:57,880 --> 01:46:00,560
position to like send money to to uh you know,

1667
01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:05,600
the the the Syrians defending themselves in their gene from terrorism.

1668
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:08,439
You know, because that that that that that that that

1669
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:10,680
was not to the same degree and not to the same.

1670
01:46:11,960 --> 01:46:14,800
Not it's not impactful in the way the Spanish War was.

1671
01:46:14,840 --> 01:46:17,319
But that's you better believe that was a was a

1672
01:46:17,319 --> 01:46:22,000
war of zechdieist in ideology and thank god you thank god,

1673
01:46:22,319 --> 01:46:25,920
you know, a sad defeated is Alamic terrorism. You know,

1674
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:29,680
that's brought to his brought to his own soil by

1675
01:46:29,800 --> 01:46:32,479
by America and Israel. I mean, that's always the case.

1676
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:35,319
I mean, the you can tell, you can tell it

1677
01:46:35,359 --> 01:46:36,920
was on the right the wrong side of the things

1678
01:46:36,960 --> 01:46:38,880
by the by the Ukraine War. And that's like a

1679
01:46:38,920 --> 01:46:41,680
more that that that's a ridiculous example because it's literally

1680
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:44,079
just like this, it's literally just kind of like a

1681
01:46:44,199 --> 01:46:48,720
human trafficking like Zionis mafia like propped up by you know,

1682
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:52,600
these like degenerates in Washington, you know, and they're they're

1683
01:46:52,640 --> 01:46:55,199
just like there's like provoking a conflict against like all

1684
01:46:55,199 --> 01:46:58,079
strategic reason. But the point is, like anybody, you know,

1685
01:46:58,119 --> 01:47:00,680
you better believed that's an ideological war and that you know,

1686
01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:05,000
that's that that's like the designated battleground for you know,

1687
01:47:05,119 --> 01:47:09,159
the uh between uh the opposing camps that constitute you know,

1688
01:47:09,279 --> 01:47:13,760
both sides of the of the Zeitgeisser Press I would

1689
01:47:13,760 --> 01:47:17,079
have been far afield today on on and what I

1690
01:47:17,079 --> 01:47:19,760
wanted to talk about. I hope that was okay with people.

1691
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:23,279
Speaker 1: I got, I got, I got, I got you off

1692
01:47:23,319 --> 01:47:27,239
track with the uh with the question about the goal

1693
01:47:27,399 --> 01:47:28,840
that no, no.

1694
01:47:28,159 --> 01:47:32,760
Speaker 2: No, no, that's an import that's that's a fascinating uh.

1695
01:47:33,239 --> 01:47:35,560
That's like something like Frederick ForSight thro like John McCurry

1696
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:39,000
would have written about it. Took a fascinating little little

1697
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:45,079
side note. What I want to get into, Uh, I'd

1698
01:47:45,079 --> 01:47:46,920
like to get a little bit deeper and like theory.

1699
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:48,560
I mean, I know it's like my wheelhouse, and I

1700
01:47:48,560 --> 01:47:50,479
don't subject people to it. I think it's boring, But

1701
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:52,279
I want to get a little bit into like the

1702
01:47:52,319 --> 01:47:55,039
mice for next time, and like how like the counter

1703
01:47:55,319 --> 01:48:01,239
Reformation like impacted political thought, which ultimately made the kind

1704
01:48:01,239 --> 01:48:07,359
of like being the nationalist coalition possible. But we'll get

1705
01:48:07,399 --> 01:48:09,600
into like the actual onset of hostilities like in the

1706
01:48:09,640 --> 01:48:13,159
next episode that well, well we'll vote. There's a little

1707
01:48:13,159 --> 01:48:15,960
background time to what I just referenced, but then kind

1708
01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:18,359
of get into like the military situation and how it developed.

1709
01:48:19,920 --> 01:48:21,479
If that's okay by you, it's your.

1710
01:48:21,399 --> 01:48:25,199
Speaker 1: S That sounds great to me. Yeah, they're maestro. I'm

1711
01:48:25,199 --> 01:48:29,079
getting ready to actually go over some of his writings

1712
01:48:29,800 --> 01:48:31,520
on the Inquisition on my show.

1713
01:48:31,720 --> 01:48:36,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's what I was thinking about, like specifically,

1714
01:48:36,199 --> 01:48:40,520
but it's I mean, he he's a very like heterodox

1715
01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:44,159
like Chavoc thinker in some ways, but in terms of

1716
01:48:44,800 --> 01:48:51,399
al Catholicism, like in foreign politics especially you know, in

1717
01:48:51,479 --> 01:48:57,199
them in from from really you know, like eighteen twelve,

1718
01:48:57,199 --> 01:49:00,640
eating thirteen, like onward like it, they can't really be overstated.

1719
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:02,600
I mean you know that because you're a learning guy.

1720
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:05,359
But this was great, man, And again I really really

1721
01:49:05,359 --> 01:49:08,000
appreciate you giving me the platform.

1722
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:10,439
Speaker 1: All right to what we do every time. Get plugs.

1723
01:49:11,319 --> 01:49:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm still on I'm still on Twitter.

1724
01:49:14,439 --> 01:49:17,000
Who knows for how long I shut down my telegram

1725
01:49:17,079 --> 01:49:19,600
channel find beings and just becoming like a huge hassle.

1726
01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:24,239
I know, I made everybody upset. I will launch another one,

1727
01:49:25,159 --> 01:49:27,199
but I got to get things in order for some

1728
01:49:27,239 --> 01:49:29,800
of my other projects. I've got to catch up on

1729
01:49:30,720 --> 01:49:33,720
these long form manuscripts that I had a neglect because

1730
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:35,399
I've been you know, I mean, I've been busy with

1731
01:49:35,439 --> 01:49:38,760
them stuff. It wasn't just as neglecting things, but the

1732
01:49:40,720 --> 01:49:44,279
I am in fact shooting channel footage. It's an involved process.

1733
01:49:46,199 --> 01:49:49,279
Actual like long episodes are probably only gonna come out

1734
01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:52,720
want like bi monthly, but I'm going to start shooting

1735
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:56,279
like two and three minute videos like and will drop

1736
01:49:56,319 --> 01:49:59,399
those weekly. Okay, But there's a lot that goes into

1737
01:49:59,439 --> 01:50:00,920
what I'm not saying that play Martyr. I'm saying that

1738
01:50:00,960 --> 01:50:06,479
to people. Don't think I'm being like slack and uh,

1739
01:50:06,800 --> 01:50:12,239
season two of Mind Phaser, I I'm recording the next

1740
01:50:12,319 --> 01:50:17,199
episode with my dear friend Giles tomorrow night. That's going

1741
01:50:17,239 --> 01:50:20,359
to be the last episode of season one and season

1742
01:50:20,359 --> 01:50:23,079
two with the pod is going to change substantially, but

1743
01:50:23,279 --> 01:50:26,159
I believe everybody will approve of the ways in which

1744
01:50:26,199 --> 01:50:29,119
it's changing. Like we're not We're We're gonna stick to

1745
01:50:29,119 --> 01:50:31,000
the same as of topics. So there's other things I

1746
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:35,600
want to emphasize and you'll see, Okay, and I'll give

1747
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:39,840
it a write up on my substick so to kind

1748
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:45,279
of hit people to what I'm thinking. But yeah, and

1749
01:50:45,319 --> 01:50:47,760
you can find me on substick at real Thomas seven

1750
01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:52,239
seven seven dot substick dot com. And that's all I

1751
01:50:52,279 --> 01:50:52,720
got for.

1752
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:56,359
Speaker 1: Now, Thomas, until the next time, Thank you so much.

1753
01:50:57,039 --> 01:50:57,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man.

1754
01:50:57,640 --> 01:51:04,279
Speaker 1: Likewise, I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show.

1755
01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:08,760
I'm here with Tom seven seven seven again Part three

1756
01:51:09,319 --> 01:51:11,079
Spanish Civil War. How are you done?

1757
01:51:12,159 --> 01:51:18,600
Speaker 2: Very well man, thanks again for making this happen. I've

1758
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:23,840
been thinking a lot about the revolution in military affairs

1759
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:27,760
and what people trace its origins to. That's not just

1760
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:32,159
a discrete question of interest to military science types or

1761
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:38,159
you know, like war college types who you know, study

1762
01:51:38,199 --> 01:51:40,119
this kind of thing for its own sake, not just

1763
01:51:41,039 --> 01:51:44,520
to understand the things for the sake of posterity, but

1764
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:51,399
also you know, game future conflicts. But it relates in

1765
01:51:51,439 --> 01:52:00,840
peculiar ways to the conditions that you know, power this

1766
01:52:01,680 --> 01:52:05,399
decisions of an almost purely political nature, like the true

1767
01:52:05,720 --> 01:52:10,680
the true revolution in military affairs was something that occurred

1768
01:52:10,720 --> 01:52:13,359
on the command to control side, owing to the owing

1769
01:52:13,399 --> 01:52:16,079
to the information age and the advent of it, I believe.

1770
01:52:16,720 --> 01:52:23,800
But its origins lie in blitzkrieg or what some people

1771
01:52:23,840 --> 01:52:31,199
commonly understand is blitzkrieg and how that doctrine came to develop.

1772
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:37,199
The best explanation of what the controversy is, there's Basil

1773
01:52:37,319 --> 01:52:43,840
Ladell Hearts, who I think is something of a problematic historian,

1774
01:52:45,119 --> 01:52:48,760
but he does flesh out what the kind of the

1775
01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:56,760
key variables are in in you know, material to the

1776
01:52:56,760 --> 01:53:02,960
the question. John Mierschein, I find him more accessible. Mirshmm

1777
01:53:03,000 --> 01:53:06,319
is highly theoretical, but he's less deliberately esoteric than somebody

1778
01:53:06,399 --> 01:53:11,800
like heart. And he presents these things, uh ironically because

1779
01:53:11,800 --> 01:53:15,439
I think one of Meershimer's blind spots is the political

1780
01:53:15,439 --> 01:53:18,560
conditions which underlie warfare at all times and what what

1781
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:20,840
the interplay is. I mean, he's very much a clouset

1782
01:53:20,840 --> 01:53:24,439
whitsy and he's also very much, you know, a quantitative thinker.

1783
01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:28,239
I mean, I got all like tremendous respect for him,

1784
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:35,439
but that part ways with him in basic terms in

1785
01:53:35,479 --> 01:53:38,840
his understanding of the interplay of political and military affairs.

1786
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:42,479
But his book Conventional Deterrence, Okay, it made it was

1787
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:48,199
it was highly impactful during the late Cold War. I

1788
01:53:48,479 --> 01:53:51,680
h people always asking me for sources and things, all right,

1789
01:53:53,000 --> 01:53:56,840
The Journal of the Atomic Scientists. You can find most

1790
01:53:56,880 --> 01:53:59,600
of that the archives for free if you dig deep, okay,

1791
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:03,800
on line. Now it's become kind of this like like

1792
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:10,479
you know, pointless kind of piecen like environmentalists kind of

1793
01:54:10,560 --> 01:54:17,239
journal that no one takes seriously, but it had real relevance,

1794
01:54:18,000 --> 01:54:20,199
you know, from the eyes of our era until you know,

1795
01:54:20,279 --> 01:54:25,399
November ninetheteen eighty nine, frankly and the final phase of

1796
01:54:25,399 --> 01:54:29,840
the Cold War. It started running a lot of informed

1797
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:35,640
pieces by people like Meerscheimer about the re emergence of

1798
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:41,600
of of conventional forces as you know, a key variable,

1799
01:54:42,199 --> 01:54:46,239
you know, owing not just to to to emergent deeper parodies.

1800
01:54:46,279 --> 01:54:50,199
But you know, it's just like a more you know,

1801
01:54:50,239 --> 01:54:55,279
the the information revolution it led to just more complete

1802
01:54:55,359 --> 01:54:59,119
understanding of you know, the interplay of of conventional and

1803
01:54:59,239 --> 01:55:02,840
nuclear forces in in a few in a then future

1804
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:10,800
conflict with you know, then extant platforms. But this piece

1805
01:55:10,840 --> 01:55:13,760
that I'm site, I'm referencing and generally a time of scientists.

1806
01:55:14,039 --> 01:55:18,560
It's basically a condensed version of uh near Simmer's book

1807
01:55:18,600 --> 01:55:22,760
Conventional Deterrence, which was published in nineteen eighty two, eighty

1808
01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:29,680
two or eighty three, and obviously he the article it

1809
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:33,560
talks to from from you know, then current like from

1810
01:55:33,560 --> 01:55:35,840
the headline's issues relating to the able Archer era and

1811
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:41,359
stuff and and the person to deployment and the UH

1812
01:55:41,880 --> 01:55:46,720
the the Minuteman system and things. But the book Conventional

1813
01:55:46,720 --> 01:55:51,520
Deterrence remains relevant because it's about the best statement of

1814
01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:56,279
the controversy. The historians debate on the question of Blitzkrieg,

1815
01:55:56,439 --> 01:56:00,279
Like basically it boils down to this, you know, was

1816
01:56:00,319 --> 01:56:04,880
Blitzkrieg this revolutionary doctrine that was conceptualized in in purely

1817
01:56:04,920 --> 01:56:13,159
theoretical terms before the Battle of France, specifically you know,

1818
01:56:13,239 --> 01:56:22,039
whereby uh whereby people like Heinzkderian and uh people like

1819
01:56:22,199 --> 01:56:27,439
uh Werner Gunn Fritz, were you know, understood that masked

1820
01:56:27,560 --> 01:56:34,880
armor was gonna supplant conventional infantry, you know, as the

1821
01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:39,800
as the the spare punt of of of of ground

1822
01:56:39,800 --> 01:56:45,199
assault operations. Or was Blitzkrieg this kind of uh, you know,

1823
01:56:47,000 --> 01:56:51,039
technique that developed owing to the unique exigencies of the

1824
01:56:51,079 --> 01:56:56,159
modern battlefield conditions, and you know, as uh as as

1825
01:56:56,359 --> 01:56:59,880
as as the French collapse and as the mainline resistance

1826
01:57:00,880 --> 01:57:06,960
you know, kind of rapidly just evaporated at points where

1827
01:57:08,800 --> 01:57:12,720
masked armor was employed. The great effect, you know, was

1828
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:17,960
was that just basically like you know, German battlefield commanders

1829
01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:21,920
who who were strongly oriented towards what's called mission arrayed

1830
01:57:22,039 --> 01:57:25,000
tactics anyway, and had an inherent you know, kind of

1831
01:57:25,000 --> 01:57:29,039
tendency towards experimentation and flexibility. You know, they just adopted

1832
01:57:29,039 --> 01:57:34,079
these things like in theater, and then you know, very organically, ah,

1833
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:38,279
a combined arms doctrine developed, you know, like owing to

1834
01:57:39,159 --> 01:57:44,880
trial and error under the critical conditions of combat or

1835
01:57:45,439 --> 01:57:49,920
you know, was was it again like just a just

1836
01:57:50,039 --> 01:57:55,880
a a theoretical coup, you know, owing to kind of

1837
01:57:55,920 --> 01:58:00,439
the latent uh brilliance of the German general stat And

1838
01:58:00,479 --> 01:58:04,039
of course people favored the latter. That's really I mean

1839
01:58:04,039 --> 01:58:06,000
that that sounds on it's face it might be particularly

1840
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:09,520
credible in like general terms. But the you know, the

1841
01:58:09,520 --> 01:58:11,800
the Germans, the Prussian Army, and especially if you the

1842
01:58:11,840 --> 01:58:14,920
Wehrmacht as the direct legacy of the Prussian Army, which

1843
01:58:14,960 --> 01:58:17,560
I do and I'm not gonna be disputed. They invented

1844
01:58:17,560 --> 01:58:23,479
the staff structure, Okay, the United States, the UK, France, Japan,

1845
01:58:23,720 --> 01:58:27,680
everybody imitated the Prussian staff structure, where you know, you

1846
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:30,960
have a permanent general staff that constantly studies in games warfare.

1847
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:35,119
And they also pioneered war gaming as we know it, okay,

1848
01:58:35,359 --> 01:58:41,600
you know, like discreet scenario building with coded variables too,

1849
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:48,600
you know, tailored to mimic likely battlefield conditions and things.

1850
01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:55,880
So in the German case, it's a more credible postulate

1851
01:58:55,920 --> 01:59:00,199
than it would be you know, as applied to there

1852
01:59:01,640 --> 01:59:05,359
as applied to other military cultures in a speculative capacity.

1853
01:59:07,119 --> 01:59:10,880
If you accept uh that blitzkrieg was a discreet doctrine

1854
01:59:11,039 --> 01:59:17,560
that emerged, you know, from theoretical quarters of the Rmoncht,

1855
01:59:19,239 --> 01:59:23,960
you also basically like like a concominant like claim they're

1856
01:59:23,960 --> 01:59:27,159
in is that well, like Hitler sabotaged this by micromanagement

1857
01:59:27,319 --> 01:59:31,520
or Hitler was basically like, you know, a siege oriented commander.

1858
01:59:33,600 --> 01:59:40,920
You know, he was uh, basically cautious in critical capacities,

1859
01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:46,079
you know, and uh, I basically agree with that, but

1860
01:59:46,119 --> 01:59:48,880
not for the reasons most people do. If you learn

1861
01:59:48,920 --> 01:59:52,920
the way Hitler behaved in in in a warlord role,

1862
01:59:54,319 --> 01:59:56,840
he wasn't this crazy, reckless gambler like a lot of

1863
01:59:56,840 --> 01:59:59,880
core historians or Hollywood like make it out, you know,

1864
02:00:00,039 --> 02:00:03,800
quite the contrary. He was basically like a conservative German

1865
02:00:03,920 --> 02:00:08,520
like siege commander, you know, and when objectives were reached,

1866
02:00:09,439 --> 02:00:13,079
you know, he he was obsessed with protecting flanks and

1867
02:00:13,479 --> 02:00:17,359
you know, constituting forces such that they could defend in depth,

1868
02:00:18,079 --> 02:00:24,000
you know, if necessary. But in any event, one of

1869
02:00:24,039 --> 02:00:26,840
the reasons why I think that the whole controversy was

1870
02:00:26,920 --> 02:00:31,720
kind of a fool's errand it's because German armored doctrine

1871
02:00:32,159 --> 02:00:36,560
it's testing ground was the Spanish Civil War. Okay, and

1872
02:00:36,680 --> 02:00:42,159
von Toma, who uh, as we'll get into. He's an

1873
02:00:42,199 --> 02:00:47,680
underappreciated German commander more so than some of the other

1874
02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:52,239
general officers which revisionists, uh, you know have kind of

1875
02:00:53,600 --> 02:00:56,640
discovered weren't higher praise than they were afforded other for

1876
02:00:56,680 --> 02:00:58,640
political reason and just because they were like overlooked in

1877
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:01,119
favor of these more kind of dashing characters like Rommel,

1878
02:01:01,239 --> 02:01:07,399
or like Drrian, or like went manach thing i'd put uh,

1879
02:01:08,640 --> 02:01:12,880
I put Vontma. I consider him the same class as

1880
02:01:12,960 --> 02:01:18,119
uh Rick Toffin, as Ferdinand Schorner with the last German

1881
02:01:18,279 --> 02:01:25,640
Field Marshall ever. But he uh, he was a tactical genius,

1882
02:01:25,680 --> 02:01:27,399
I believe. And that's the other reason I like that

1883
02:01:27,479 --> 02:01:32,399
book by Hoffman Stalins Worb Extermination. It's not just because

1884
02:01:32,399 --> 02:01:35,239
it's a it's great scholarship, but he makes that point

1885
02:01:35,239 --> 02:01:37,479
in some of his other stuff too, that Ferdinand Schorners

1886
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:42,279
it was a great battlefield commander, but in any event,

1887
02:01:44,279 --> 02:01:51,199
armor was dispositive. In the Spanish Civil War and the nationalists,

1888
02:01:51,239 --> 02:01:53,760
you know, the the Franco's forces, I mean, if you

1889
02:01:53,760 --> 02:01:56,079
want to think of them as nationalists, fascists, you know,

1890
02:01:56,720 --> 02:02:05,600
the like about the constellation of of of uh of

1891
02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:08,840
of just fascists who had general sympathy for you know,

1892
02:02:08,920 --> 02:02:13,199
the for the church and and for the you know,

1893
02:02:13,239 --> 02:02:18,800
and for the for the traditional regime political and social.

1894
02:02:19,520 --> 02:02:22,039
But they like however you want to describe on it was.

1895
02:02:23,279 --> 02:02:27,079
It was this kind of confederation of of of of

1896
02:02:27,399 --> 02:02:31,880
different forces but sometimes competing loyalties and uh, you know,

1897
02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:35,760
like we talked about before, before the loof Offa came

1898
02:02:35,800 --> 02:02:39,399
to their aid, you know, not just to literally transport

1899
02:02:39,640 --> 02:02:42,239
the forces and being they had across the entranean c

1900
02:02:42,439 --> 02:02:45,600
to the battle space, but all you know, they they

1901
02:02:45,600 --> 02:02:49,039
were they were in dire straits and one of the

1902
02:02:49,119 --> 02:02:54,319
reasons why they were just out gunned was because, uh,

1903
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:59,199
the the enemy had uh twenty six tanks provided by

1904
02:02:59,199 --> 02:03:05,000
the Soviet Union, and those tanks were obsolete by the

1905
02:03:05,000 --> 02:03:07,720
admin of World War Two, but they were they were

1906
02:03:07,920 --> 02:03:12,399
in someways perfectly suited to the combat on the Spanish battlefield.

1907
02:03:13,000 --> 02:03:16,880
And one of the reasons I emphasized Von Toma, It's

1908
02:03:16,920 --> 02:03:19,680
not just because I've got you know, sort of like

1909
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:23,680
a nerve's interest in the ground element of condor leadings.

1910
02:03:23,760 --> 02:03:27,680
I think it's cool. But out of all the men

1911
02:03:27,800 --> 02:03:33,359
that you know, Hitler and you know, the the OKW

1912
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:37,760
could have deployed, you know, to command that element, they

1913
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:40,640
chose von Toma. You know who was this guy who

1914
02:03:40,720 --> 02:03:43,840
was a student of on Sikh, who was an incredibly

1915
02:03:43,880 --> 02:03:47,800
progressive commander in terms of his understanding of combined arms

1916
02:03:48,000 --> 02:03:50,000
and just an all around like really well rounded guy.

1917
02:03:50,279 --> 02:03:52,119
You know. They didn't just drop you know, like some

1918
02:03:53,039 --> 02:03:55,640
you know some some tried and tested you know, Prussian

1919
02:03:55,640 --> 02:04:01,760
infantry commander, you know, and that's from van Tooma. Also,

1920
02:04:01,880 --> 02:04:05,640
like he was he was knighted owing to uh you know,

1921
02:04:05,720 --> 02:04:07,479
World War One, and I mean he was, he was,

1922
02:04:07,520 --> 02:04:09,800
he was granted the title for heroism, you know, like

1923
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:12,239
he wasn't born an aristocrat. So I mean this was

1924
02:04:12,279 --> 02:04:15,199
a guy who really really had a ship together in

1925
02:04:15,279 --> 02:04:21,720
command roles, you know, but he he uh he one second,

1926
02:04:25,039 --> 02:04:28,119
he fought on basically he fought literally not basically, he

1927
02:04:28,159 --> 02:04:29,960
fought in every front of the First World War two,

1928
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:32,439
which was rare. He fought he joined the Bavarian Army

1929
02:04:33,359 --> 02:04:38,199
an outside of hostilities. Uh. He fought on the Western

1930
02:04:38,239 --> 02:04:41,119
Front and remittently finally fought the Battle of the Marn

1931
02:04:41,319 --> 02:04:44,359
and was captured by American and French forces. If he

1932
02:04:44,399 --> 02:04:47,760
gave a pow for the you know, the final two

1933
02:04:47,800 --> 02:04:50,039
months of the war. But you know, he fought on

1934
02:04:50,079 --> 02:04:53,520
the Eastern Front extensively and most men had not, with

1935
02:04:53,600 --> 02:04:56,920
some exceptions, you know, spent like basically equal time like

1936
02:04:56,920 --> 02:04:58,199
in the East and in the west, you know, like

1937
02:04:58,239 --> 02:05:02,239
he fought in Romania. He fought throughout the Serbian campaign,

1938
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:07,600
you know, very well on a guy. He was awarded

1939
02:05:07,640 --> 02:05:11,760
the the the Order of Max with Joseph by the

1940
02:05:11,800 --> 02:05:17,279
Bavarian Army, which was like the you know, his equivalent

1941
02:05:17,359 --> 02:05:21,159
of the Blue Max basically, you know, but it uh it,

1942
02:05:21,159 --> 02:05:23,359
it was equivalent of the Knight's Cross. And that's why

1943
02:05:23,399 --> 02:05:27,760
he that's why he got you know, the the the

1944
02:05:27,760 --> 02:05:33,520
the honorific in his name. But he uh van Brauschich,

1945
02:05:33,800 --> 02:05:40,800
who is kind of an under examined commander, I mean everybody,

1946
02:05:41,079 --> 02:05:43,159
the falling out between him and Hitler, you know, in

1947
02:05:43,199 --> 02:05:48,560
the wake of the very much being a hall stenter

1948
02:05:48,600 --> 02:05:53,159
being halted in Moscow. It's kind of what he's most

1949
02:05:53,199 --> 02:05:56,520
known for, as well as there's some strange intrigues he

1950
02:05:56,600 --> 02:05:58,960
seems to have been involved in, you know, relating to the

1951
02:05:59,039 --> 02:06:01,760
July twentieth plot. But other than that, he's kind of

1952
02:06:01,760 --> 02:06:03,960
treated as a footnote, you know, because for the remainder

1953
02:06:04,000 --> 02:06:06,119
of the war, like you know, he'd been he'd he'd

1954
02:06:06,159 --> 02:06:10,000
been castured out, you know, owing to him. The fear

1955
02:06:10,079 --> 02:06:12,800
is loss of confidence in him. But he was a

1956
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:19,560
farmer dynamic character in at least in the terms of

1957
02:06:19,680 --> 02:06:23,199
you know, his profession and how he pursued it. Then

1958
02:06:23,960 --> 02:06:29,079
people often acknowledge so he was uh, you know, he

1959
02:06:29,239 --> 02:06:34,640
was he basically Van Brousa said, had you know, cultivated

1960
02:06:34,680 --> 02:06:39,279
Ontoma's talents by by you know, asking of him they

1961
02:06:39,279 --> 02:06:43,760
become an expert in arman warfare, which I assume Ontma

1962
02:06:44,079 --> 02:06:47,079
had been kind of pursuing his own course of learning

1963
02:06:47,239 --> 02:06:50,479
in that capacity anyway, I mean, just like going to

1964
02:06:50,520 --> 02:06:58,359
the battlefield record and everything else. He ended up commanding, uh,

1965
02:06:58,479 --> 02:07:04,279
he ended up commanding seventeen pans are later on in

1966
02:07:04,319 --> 02:07:08,600
the Operation Barbarossa, he fought at the Battle of Moscow.

1967
02:07:09,000 --> 02:07:12,199
Then he was trying. He received the Knight's Cross, the

1968
02:07:12,239 --> 02:07:16,479
Iron Cross. Subsequently he was transferred to North Africa and

1969
02:07:16,520 --> 02:07:20,359
he was captured at the in the aftermath of the

1970
02:07:20,399 --> 02:07:25,359
Second Battle of l a Lamine. And that's why like uh,

1971
02:07:26,000 --> 02:07:29,239
hearts like uh in the German General's Talk and like

1972
02:07:29,279 --> 02:07:32,000
all the hearts like uh, you know, kind of books

1973
02:07:32,039 --> 02:07:37,319
on on Hrmacht's leadership, like Montoma like features looms large

1974
02:07:37,640 --> 02:07:40,319
because he was used frankly in the custody of of

1975
02:07:40,319 --> 02:07:44,039
of the British army for years, you know, and he

1976
02:07:44,039 --> 02:07:46,520
he developed something of a rapport with these guys, you know,

1977
02:07:46,600 --> 02:07:52,159
I mean it, uh, which is interesting. So I mean

1978
02:07:52,199 --> 02:07:55,720
some people would say, like, well, you know, that gives

1979
02:07:55,800 --> 02:07:58,600
him kind of an outsized presence in the historical record.

1980
02:07:58,760 --> 02:08:03,319
I don't really think so. And there's plenty of especially

1981
02:08:03,439 --> 02:08:05,840
after the cessation of hostilities, I mean, after the day

1982
02:08:05,880 --> 02:08:09,920
of defeat, there was plenty of There's plenty of surviving

1983
02:08:09,920 --> 02:08:13,279
general officers who you know, could have been debriefed all

1984
02:08:13,359 --> 02:08:15,800
day and they would have been happy to have that

1985
02:08:16,039 --> 02:08:18,319
either a lot in lieu of the gallows or you know,

1986
02:08:19,119 --> 02:08:23,199
being unceremoniously uh. You know, it's kind of like cast

1987
02:08:23,279 --> 02:08:30,119
out as on persons. Plus to the British whatever we can,

1988
02:08:30,199 --> 02:08:33,279
whatever we can say about them, they I mean, they're

1989
02:08:33,279 --> 02:08:35,960
they're not a bunch of jokers when it comes to

1990
02:08:37,039 --> 02:08:41,119
the capacity to evaluate military talent and command level. I

1991
02:08:41,119 --> 02:08:46,600
think anybody would acknowledge that, regardless, regardless of their feelings

1992
02:08:48,079 --> 02:08:54,560
about Old Blighty otherwise. But Ontoma ended up in Spain

1993
02:08:54,960 --> 02:09:00,159
in October thirty six. The first shipment at German tanks

1994
02:09:00,800 --> 02:09:06,159
was forty one ponzer Comwagen type one pans Are one tanks. Okay,

1995
02:09:08,319 --> 02:09:11,439
and like the T twenty six tanks that they were

1996
02:09:11,439 --> 02:09:15,600
deployed to combat, they were obsolete by you know, ninety

1997
02:09:15,680 --> 02:09:19,319
thirty nine forty but it again for the for the

1998
02:09:19,359 --> 02:09:27,960
Spanish uh battlefield, they they were perfectly suited. And also

1999
02:09:28,399 --> 02:09:31,680
the Germans, as the pans Are two had already been developed.

2000
02:09:34,079 --> 02:09:37,000
The pans Are one was being used largely as a

2001
02:09:37,039 --> 02:09:42,239
training tank, like by the Wehrmacht because it, I mean,

2002
02:09:42,239 --> 02:09:45,399
for various reasons and including it was it was just

2003
02:09:45,399 --> 02:09:50,520
a simpler machine, you know, and it was uh you

2004
02:09:50,520 --> 02:09:52,960
gotta understand too, like most men at this time, like

2005
02:09:52,960 --> 02:09:55,279
it never even like driven a car, you know, so

2006
02:09:55,359 --> 02:09:59,960
it's I even today, I mean with all the Advan

2007
02:10:00,039 --> 02:10:03,720
and somebody would have and you know, learning how to

2008
02:10:03,800 --> 02:10:06,640
fight in armor and you know, like a contemporary tank.

2009
02:10:07,159 --> 02:10:09,239
I mean, imagine, imagine a guy who's never even bending

2010
02:10:09,279 --> 02:10:13,760
like an automobile, you know, like it. It's and plus,

2011
02:10:13,760 --> 02:10:16,840
fighting an armor is scary. It's claust aphobic. You're in,

2012
02:10:16,920 --> 02:10:19,920
you're inhaling diesel fumes, it's loud as hell like in

2013
02:10:19,960 --> 02:10:23,479
those days. Your visibility is compromised, like if you get hit,

2014
02:10:23,560 --> 02:10:25,720
you're probably gonna burn to death or you know, get

2015
02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:30,159
your face ripped apart by shrapnel. I mean, it's it's

2016
02:10:30,199 --> 02:10:35,680
no joke, you know. So training an armor is not

2017
02:10:35,760 --> 02:10:38,319
just like teaching somebody to fire a gun, or or

2018
02:10:38,359 --> 02:10:40,720
to dry or to drive a shitty. I mean, I

2019
02:10:40,760 --> 02:10:42,680
that should go without saying. But I maybe it's because

2020
02:10:42,720 --> 02:10:46,119
I mean maybe it's because like I I don't like,

2021
02:10:46,520 --> 02:10:50,199
I'm claust aphobic in a real way and my room

2022
02:10:50,239 --> 02:10:53,079
went on. One horror is being burnt alive. But I

2023
02:10:53,079 --> 02:10:56,359
I've always thought, uh, I've always I've always thought it

2024
02:10:56,359 --> 02:11:00,359
would be uniquely uh scary to fight in that. And

2025
02:11:00,399 --> 02:11:05,960
I don't generally have a fear of higher situations. But

2026
02:11:07,159 --> 02:11:10,960
the total, uh, the total number of pans are ones

2027
02:11:11,079 --> 02:11:17,399
to reach Spain was seventy two as regards forces and

2028
02:11:17,520 --> 02:11:19,800
being by the end of I still between nine thirty

2029
02:11:19,800 --> 02:11:21,600
six thirty nine of total one hundred and twenty two

2030
02:11:21,760 --> 02:11:24,640
were deployed, you know, including like replacements and everything else,

2031
02:11:24,680 --> 02:11:27,680
you know, like going to owing to attrition and going

2032
02:11:27,720 --> 02:11:30,239
to you know, just a mechanical failure in things. But

2033
02:11:31,399 --> 02:11:37,439
and like we mentioned, uh that the Nationalists were outgunned

2034
02:11:37,479 --> 02:11:40,840
by the Soviet T twenty six, which were fitted with

2035
02:11:40,840 --> 02:11:45,279
a forty five millimeters main gun, which was heavy heavy firepower,

2036
02:11:45,560 --> 02:11:53,079
uh for the era the pans Are one, it's armament

2037
02:11:53,359 --> 02:12:02,359
was two M thirteen light machine guns. It was a

2038
02:12:02,439 --> 02:12:05,159
truly light tank, like in fact, like pie today's metric

2039
02:12:05,279 --> 02:12:08,039
or even by the metric you know of uh of

2040
02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:10,800
you know, by the by the metric of you know,

2041
02:12:10,880 --> 02:12:12,720
four or five years later, even by the mid forties,

2042
02:12:12,840 --> 02:12:13,960
it'd be a like it'd be a like it'd be

2043
02:12:13,960 --> 02:12:16,239
a light armored vehicle. It wouldn't even be considered a tank,

2044
02:12:16,479 --> 02:12:20,960
you know, and owing to these only this disparity of

2045
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:24,000
of arms and you know, fire power rather uh, like

2046
02:12:24,159 --> 02:12:30,560
Spanish officers started agitating for the for the platform to

2047
02:12:30,560 --> 02:12:34,199
be retrofitted with a BREDA twenty millimeter main gun. You know,

2048
02:12:34,279 --> 02:12:39,119
Don Tomas strongly opposed this. You know, he said, you're

2049
02:12:39,159 --> 02:12:42,880
gonna compromise the integrity of the hull. Uh, You're gonna

2050
02:12:42,880 --> 02:12:49,159
literally have to drill holes that expose the gunner, you know,

2051
02:12:49,199 --> 02:12:53,239
the being targeted at visual range. You know, it's it's

2052
02:12:53,760 --> 02:12:56,159
it's it's it's a it's a it's a fool's errand

2053
02:12:56,840 --> 02:12:59,600
you know, and it was and that's important, you know,

2054
02:12:59,680 --> 02:13:02,800
I mean it's not the Spanish were thinking about this,

2055
02:13:03,079 --> 02:13:06,520
you know, like you know, like like like like like

2056
02:13:06,600 --> 02:13:10,920
a like an infantry commander would you know, like we

2057
02:13:10,640 --> 02:13:20,119
we just need to match firepower. You know, it's Montoma understood. Yeah,

2058
02:13:20,159 --> 02:13:27,800
I mean a lot of what goes into a lot

2059
02:13:27,840 --> 02:13:31,399
of what goes into combined arms warfare, I mean always

2060
02:13:31,439 --> 02:13:35,479
then and now, but also specifically, I mean, yeah, the

2061
02:13:35,600 --> 02:13:38,159
German General staff has oriented towards you know, warfare is

2062
02:13:38,159 --> 02:13:43,560
the advance of fire. But it's not you know, packing

2063
02:13:43,600 --> 02:13:47,880
as much firepower onto onto onto a platform, I mean

2064
02:13:47,920 --> 02:13:50,880
for its own sake, you know, because you're you know,

2065
02:13:51,039 --> 02:13:53,319
you know, it's it's some kind of it's not going

2066
02:13:53,359 --> 02:13:55,680
to caliber race with the enemy is misguided, but it's

2067
02:13:55,760 --> 02:14:00,560
understandable why they would think that way. But interesting, what

2068
02:14:00,840 --> 02:14:02,720
ultimately was agreed upon.

2069
02:14:05,479 --> 02:14:06,000
Speaker 3: Was UH.

2070
02:14:08,039 --> 02:14:16,239
Speaker 2: Montoma discovered and this was abided because he pretty rapidly

2071
02:14:16,279 --> 02:14:18,640
won the confidence of the Spaniards. We'll get into that.

2072
02:14:18,680 --> 02:14:23,199
Interesting that paradigm and kind of interplay the sociology of

2073
02:14:23,239 --> 02:14:26,119
it in a minute. But UH, what was most effective

2074
02:14:26,399 --> 02:14:33,399
was UH have one tank per section for per company size,

2075
02:14:33,520 --> 02:14:37,199
like a tank section would be you know, about fifteen

2076
02:14:38,239 --> 02:14:41,600
ten to fifteen panthers, like one for every one. UH.

2077
02:14:41,840 --> 02:14:46,119
One retrofitted thirty millimeter gun or twenty millimeters main gun

2078
02:14:46,279 --> 02:14:49,439
for every fifteen ten to fifteen panthers. Was what made

2079
02:14:49,479 --> 02:14:53,399
it most effective because you know they could you wouldn't

2080
02:14:53,399 --> 02:14:59,159
you wouldn't sacrifice you know, the your defensive armor, you know,

2081
02:14:59,159 --> 02:15:03,359
but you could bring the fight power to bear that

2082
02:15:03,560 --> 02:15:07,720
was required you know, in in in killing enemy tanks

2083
02:15:07,840 --> 02:15:14,119
or you know, assaulting hardened targets. But UH was also

2084
02:15:14,199 --> 02:15:16,960
revolutionary was Comps Group TOMA as it came to be.

2085
02:15:17,359 --> 02:15:22,319
It was reinforced by the three tank companies were reinforced

2086
02:15:22,319 --> 02:15:25,079
by an anti tank section. You know, because they think

2087
02:15:25,119 --> 02:15:29,560
of eight anti tank guns, the early models, which again

2088
02:15:29,680 --> 02:15:32,359
this is another this this platform popped up in the

2089
02:15:32,399 --> 02:15:36,079
Second World War some but it was basically, you know,

2090
02:15:36,119 --> 02:15:38,560
obsolescent because they didn't have the power to kill you know,

2091
02:15:38,640 --> 02:15:42,039
the main battle tanks like the TV four, it was

2092
02:15:42,039 --> 02:15:50,880
the Ponzer abdur Khan and uh. One of the things

2093
02:15:50,880 --> 02:15:53,680
people today, unless they're kind of students of World War

2094
02:15:53,760 --> 02:15:57,880
two or like private service type guys, the advent of

2095
02:15:57,880 --> 02:16:01,359
a main battle tank you know, which is uh, you know,

2096
02:16:01,399 --> 02:16:04,439
which which can function you know, somewhat like an assault gun,

2097
02:16:05,760 --> 02:16:07,920
you know, has the power to kill enemy tanks, you know,

2098
02:16:07,960 --> 02:16:12,319
like going to its only its penetration capabilities and things,

2099
02:16:12,640 --> 02:16:15,119
you know, like having that in on one platform. Like

2100
02:16:15,159 --> 02:16:17,680
that's that that's a post RUAR two innovation. I mean

2101
02:16:17,720 --> 02:16:20,039
it can't. It started coming about during the Second World War.

2102
02:16:20,079 --> 02:16:24,239
But you know, your tanks, your assault guns are dedicated

2103
02:16:24,239 --> 02:16:28,119
you know, anti tank platforms. They these were like discrete,

2104
02:16:29,319 --> 02:16:42,799
discreetly purposed set pieces. Which is interesting. But but Tom

2105
02:16:42,959 --> 02:16:48,559
was deployed as an obst latnant, which is a lieutenant colonels. Approximately,

2106
02:16:50,840 --> 02:16:57,520
Franco appointed him quote tank tank inspector, which seems on

2107
02:16:57,600 --> 02:17:00,639
its face largely symbolic of a title, especially when you

2108
02:17:00,680 --> 02:17:05,719
consider that there wasn't a dedicated tank element, you know,

2109
02:17:05,799 --> 02:17:07,959
armored element in the Spanish army, because there wasn't in

2110
02:17:08,040 --> 02:17:11,559
any army really except you know, France and Germany, and

2111
02:17:11,559 --> 02:17:14,479
then in both cases it was nascense in Italy too.

2112
02:17:14,680 --> 02:17:22,040
But Uh, this he Ventoma enjoyed tremendous authority, and there's

2113
02:17:22,040 --> 02:17:25,120
a lot of surviving correspondence in the form of telegrams

2114
02:17:26,200 --> 02:17:33,719
between von Toma, Franco's staff, Franco himself. One of the

2115
02:17:33,760 --> 02:17:44,200
primary liaisons between between on Toma and Uh and the

2116
02:17:44,200 --> 02:17:51,079
Spanish high command was Uh, a German guy who'd come

2117
02:17:51,120 --> 02:17:53,319
up through the ad there, but he joined up with

2118
02:17:53,360 --> 02:17:58,239
the Phalangeis outfit and he was fighting in Spain against

2119
02:17:58,239 --> 02:18:01,959
the communists before you know, the Reich even deployed forces,

2120
02:18:02,760 --> 02:18:05,719
and he ended up working as Montoma's interpreter. It's hard

2121
02:18:05,719 --> 02:18:07,680
to find out a lot about him, but he's a

2122
02:18:07,719 --> 02:18:10,600
fascinating character. If I can find out more about him.

2123
02:18:11,959 --> 02:18:16,159
Adolf Klaus was his name, I'll include it. But he

2124
02:18:16,239 --> 02:18:24,799
became onntma's official interpreter and despite the inherent tentions, frankly,

2125
02:18:24,840 --> 02:18:26,840
there was something of a classic culture is like stant

2126
02:18:27,680 --> 02:18:30,040
not just because Montoma was kind of the consummate like

2127
02:18:30,079 --> 02:18:34,559
Teutonic officer, like very uncompromising, very rigid, you know, very

2128
02:18:34,639 --> 02:18:38,399
very much a task master. The Spanish army was tough,

2129
02:18:38,639 --> 02:18:40,360
like nobody would say that it was not, and I

2130
02:18:40,360 --> 02:18:43,719
mean frankly, they would not have undertaken this crusading as

2131
02:18:43,799 --> 02:18:48,520
the Communists facing the kinds of odds that were extant,

2132
02:18:48,680 --> 02:18:52,360
like were they not very game tough men, but they

2133
02:18:52,360 --> 02:18:56,920
were all fucked up. Their army was not at all professionalized.

2134
02:18:57,360 --> 02:18:59,360
You know, you still had a lot of aristocrats in

2135
02:18:59,680 --> 02:19:02,920
in in the officer ranks who felt entitled the things.

2136
02:19:04,680 --> 02:19:09,200
You know, it was rife with corruption, you know. Uh,

2137
02:19:09,360 --> 02:19:11,760
there was all kinds of favoritism you know that had

2138
02:19:11,799 --> 02:19:15,520
nothiing to do with uh, with an actual battlefield performance

2139
02:19:15,520 --> 02:19:19,040
and suitability for command. There's vestigial trappings that code of

2140
02:19:19,120 --> 02:19:23,559
Hidalgo and on Toma issued a scathing report when he'd

2141
02:19:23,600 --> 02:19:26,840
only been in country a couple of months. Among other things,

2142
02:19:28,399 --> 02:19:32,079
he came to notice that although there's many volunteers, like

2143
02:19:32,120 --> 02:19:35,520
for the tank branch, a bunch of other men, it's

2144
02:19:35,520 --> 02:19:38,639
simply been ordered there by Spanish commanders who wanted to

2145
02:19:38,719 --> 02:19:40,879
get rid of them. You know, so I will send him.

2146
02:19:40,920 --> 02:19:43,040
This guy's a trouble maker. Were like I don't like him,

2147
02:19:43,120 --> 02:19:44,920
or like maybe I want to even screw his wife

2148
02:19:44,959 --> 02:19:47,840
or something. I know, I'll send him, to send him

2149
02:19:47,840 --> 02:19:51,879
to the Cound of Religion. And von Toma pulled no punches,

2150
02:19:52,000 --> 02:19:56,280
and he uh, he threatened to leave. He threatened to

2151
02:19:57,079 --> 02:20:00,639
in his words, uh, you know, just just just like

2152
02:20:00,760 --> 02:20:08,639
resign command and leave. And he was able to convince

2153
02:20:08,719 --> 02:20:12,559
Franco or more properly, I mean, I mean Franco was

2154
02:20:12,600 --> 02:20:15,200
a Franco new what side his bread was buttered on.

2155
02:20:15,319 --> 02:20:18,239
He recognized he needed the Germans and he needed Vontoma.

2156
02:20:18,360 --> 02:20:22,680
But the whoever in the high command were, you know,

2157
02:20:22,719 --> 02:20:26,280
his primary points of contact, he was able to finesse

2158
02:20:26,360 --> 02:20:31,440
them to you know that. Look like, whoever the men

2159
02:20:31,479 --> 02:20:33,639
you send me, they've got to be the constant the

2160
02:20:33,639 --> 02:20:35,879
Ponzer group. They've got to be comfortable with a variety

2161
02:20:35,879 --> 02:20:38,600
of functions and roles of a type that you are

2162
02:20:38,639 --> 02:20:43,719
not habituated to and probably are probably are our occupational

2163
02:20:46,159 --> 02:20:50,680
functions of first impression, you know, like I said, they

2164
02:20:50,680 --> 02:20:53,120
had to be psychologically tough and fortified to deal with

2165
02:20:53,159 --> 02:21:00,879
the inherent difficulties of fighting and armor. They uh, he

2166
02:21:01,040 --> 02:21:05,040
said that just in in in raw, like staff needs

2167
02:21:06,200 --> 02:21:09,159
or personnel needs. You know, when Thomas said there there

2168
02:21:09,200 --> 02:21:12,479
had to be at least fifty volunteer troops posted at

2169
02:21:12,479 --> 02:21:14,959
all times to the tank school, you know, the tank

2170
02:21:15,040 --> 02:21:19,399
training around on Tone was overseeing twenty five dedicated gunner trainees,

2171
02:21:19,440 --> 02:21:25,239
twenty five dedicated drivers you know, being uh you know,

2172
02:21:25,319 --> 02:21:29,520
after a after their initial training subjective, they should then

2173
02:21:31,159 --> 02:21:36,639
undertake a four week course, a combat training course, upon

2174
02:21:36,840 --> 02:21:39,360
completion of which they could be immediately posted a front

2175
02:21:39,399 --> 02:21:44,200
as needed as replacements to be a constant rotation of

2176
02:21:44,760 --> 02:21:49,000
tank crews you know, who are highly trained in every

2177
02:21:49,120 --> 02:21:57,440
every function of armored warfare. You know, the the to

2178
02:21:57,559 --> 02:22:02,120
get her, you know, they they were habituated and they'd

2179
02:22:02,159 --> 02:22:04,879
be accompanied by their officers or n CEOs you know

2180
02:22:04,920 --> 02:22:10,120
that had overseen them during the training cycle. And Montmo

2181
02:22:10,200 --> 02:22:13,600
insisted upon this too. This is a general postulate that

2182
02:22:14,719 --> 02:22:19,760
was to become doctrine squad CEOs who are who would

2183
02:22:19,760 --> 02:22:21,840
be NCOs in the Spanish Army I believe, you know,

2184
02:22:21,879 --> 02:22:24,760
like senior n c os and company commanders who would

2185
02:22:24,760 --> 02:22:27,959
be officers they they when told says they had to

2186
02:22:27,959 --> 02:22:31,360
always be present with their squad and company actively leading

2187
02:22:31,360 --> 02:22:34,280
the men from the front. This was not this could

2188
02:22:34,479 --> 02:22:41,079
you know? This was not negotiable. And he concluded this

2189
02:22:41,200 --> 02:22:49,399
report by stating openly that if the tank section cannot

2190
02:22:49,479 --> 02:22:52,159
make up for the casualties that you know they're going

2191
02:22:52,200 --> 02:22:56,440
to suffer with troops and commanders and n c os

2192
02:22:56,479 --> 02:23:01,120
who were both tactically and technically proficient, that we're going

2193
02:23:01,159 --> 02:23:03,479
to lose the war. You know, It's just there's no

2194
02:23:03,879 --> 02:23:05,799
two ways about it. You know, this war is going

2195
02:23:05,840 --> 02:23:12,000
to be one or lost with the ground element, and uh,

2196
02:23:12,040 --> 02:23:18,280
it's gonna be one by proper deployment of the of armor. Okay,

2197
02:23:21,000 --> 02:23:26,000
And now I hope it's coming into focus. Why I

2198
02:23:26,079 --> 02:23:33,959
subjected the listeners to that extended introduction about the revolution

2199
02:23:34,040 --> 02:23:40,120
and military affairs and Meersheimer's postulates they're in and the

2200
02:23:40,319 --> 02:23:41,760
you know that what's what can be thought of as

2201
02:23:41,760 --> 02:23:46,040
the Blitz Greek controversy. Okay, because what I am positing

2202
02:23:49,280 --> 02:23:52,959
is in rebuttal to both of those perspectives, as I'm

2203
02:23:52,959 --> 02:23:57,799
sure people are discerning. I'm not any kind of military

2204
02:23:57,840 --> 02:24:01,719
expert at all. Okay, but I do know something about history,

2205
02:24:01,799 --> 02:24:06,840
and I do know something about you know, the Vermont,

2206
02:24:07,360 --> 02:24:13,159
all right, and I think, uh, I know something about

2207
02:24:13,159 --> 02:24:18,879
military science as much as uh, you know, like a

2208
02:24:18,959 --> 02:24:21,520
layman who's not like a game theorist or like a

2209
02:24:21,520 --> 02:24:24,959
prior service officer type. Can you know, people are welcome

2210
02:24:25,040 --> 02:24:27,360
to take me to task for this, and I mean it,

2211
02:24:28,280 --> 02:24:31,200
you know, I make myself available anybody who wants to

2212
02:24:31,440 --> 02:24:36,840
debate these things that I propose. But you know, like

2213
02:24:36,879 --> 02:24:43,239
I said, I'm relying upon the direct testimony of the

2214
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:49,479
participants to these events and uh you know the uh

2215
02:24:49,639 --> 02:24:52,559
and relying upon you know, the conditions leading to the

2216
02:24:53,120 --> 02:24:58,639
outcome of disengagement. You know, it's I don't think it

2217
02:24:58,639 --> 02:25:05,639
can be said that I'm speculating. Lontma also, and again

2218
02:25:07,920 --> 02:25:10,399
this is something that people generally only discussed from the

2219
02:25:10,559 --> 02:25:15,159
iconics the Battle of France. I realized the first open

2220
02:25:15,280 --> 02:25:21,200
ended deployment of the Fairmacht was in Poland. But Poland

2221
02:25:21,239 --> 02:25:28,360
didn't have a meaningful uh you know, tank section. So

2222
02:25:28,520 --> 02:25:37,360
we're talking about you know, modern combined arms between you know,

2223
02:25:37,399 --> 02:25:41,520
between forces where it's like a general parody. You know,

2224
02:25:41,559 --> 02:25:48,120
technological as well as numerical are our r analysis begins.

2225
02:25:48,120 --> 02:25:55,000
In nineteen forty Lontma directed that tank companies can only

2226
02:25:55,079 --> 02:25:59,280
could not operate in isolation from one another. They had utilized,

2227
02:25:59,319 --> 02:26:03,760
they had utilized massed firepower and advance of fire and addition,

2228
02:26:04,200 --> 02:26:08,760
the transport company and the supporting mobile workshop and maintenance company.

2229
02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:12,920
You know, they had to be maintained at optimal capabilities

2230
02:26:12,959 --> 02:26:15,079
and deployed to the front at all times and support

2231
02:26:15,159 --> 02:26:19,840
the assault element, you know, regardless of the drain that

2232
02:26:20,079 --> 02:26:25,239
this is gonna you know, place on on the regular

2233
02:26:25,319 --> 02:26:31,479
infantry and on you know, the corp of engineers and

2234
02:26:31,600 --> 02:26:33,479
anybody else. You know, this is yours, this is your

2235
02:26:33,479 --> 02:26:37,319
assault element. This is the share punk of your assault element.

2236
02:26:37,440 --> 02:26:40,799
You know, it has to take absolute priority and that yeah, okay,

2237
02:26:40,799 --> 02:26:42,879
we take that for granted today. But again this is

2238
02:26:43,079 --> 02:26:46,719
this is nineteen thirty six in Spain. Okay, armored armored

2239
02:26:46,719 --> 02:26:49,600
warfare as we know it doesn't exist yet, you know,

2240
02:26:49,840 --> 02:26:54,440
and this is four years this is three three years

2241
02:26:54,440 --> 02:26:56,639
and some months before the Battle of France. Okay, so

2242
02:26:56,719 --> 02:27:03,799
this is remarkably sick. I spoke a moment ago about

2243
02:27:04,280 --> 02:27:07,840
there's a lot said, especially because you know, relations were

2244
02:27:07,879 --> 02:27:15,280
not always particularly amiable. You know, between the Germans and

2245
02:27:15,319 --> 02:27:17,680
their Latin allies, whether we're talking about you know, the

2246
02:27:17,719 --> 02:27:22,440
Italians of the Spaniards. A lot of people insinuate that

2247
02:27:22,479 --> 02:27:24,600
there was a kind of like ugly racial prejudice at

2248
02:27:24,639 --> 02:27:32,000
work there. I think that's overstated what came to be

2249
02:27:32,079 --> 02:27:37,879
known perhaps kind of you know. I mean, it's what

2250
02:27:37,959 --> 02:27:43,239
came you know as a Tomorrow affair, which seems to

2251
02:27:43,280 --> 02:27:47,920
overstate the significance of it, you know, by characterizing it

2252
02:27:47,920 --> 02:27:50,799
as with some sort of scandal. On December thirty first,

2253
02:27:50,879 --> 02:27:54,600
nineteen thirty eight, but Tolma sent an urgent telegram to

2254
02:27:57,680 --> 02:28:02,799
Infantry Colonel Ricardo from that this the tamer he was

2255
02:28:02,799 --> 02:28:07,000
the primary liaison with Franco's high command or the equivalent

2256
02:28:07,040 --> 02:28:13,079
of a general staff okay, and in some basic capacity,

2257
02:28:14,280 --> 02:28:17,200
and uh, this was going into the final phase of

2258
02:28:17,239 --> 02:28:21,360
the war. Vntoma demanded know on certain terms to be

2259
02:28:21,440 --> 02:28:26,399
infeigned beforehand of any change of an operational or logistical nature,

2260
02:28:26,840 --> 02:28:30,760
or any personnel related matter or policy. And this had

2261
02:28:30,879 --> 02:28:32,440
all these things that to be subject to his view

2262
02:28:32,520 --> 02:28:35,959
or approval, you know, And he reiterated, I, you know,

2263
02:28:36,040 --> 02:28:38,760
I was appointed by Franco his tank inspector. You know,

2264
02:28:38,840 --> 02:28:43,079
and is is a demand is not immediately obeyed, I

2265
02:28:43,799 --> 02:28:46,680
will withdraw my contribution. In his words, So again this

2266
02:28:46,760 --> 02:28:49,399
is him threatening to throw his hands up and resign.

2267
02:28:51,000 --> 02:28:53,079
You could read that as him being a prima donna

2268
02:28:53,159 --> 02:28:56,040
of a sort. I think he was entirely serious. I

2269
02:28:56,040 --> 02:29:03,280
don't think that can be disputed. And again you're looking

2270
02:29:03,280 --> 02:29:05,760
at this army, which you know in the Spaniards, which

2271
02:29:05,799 --> 02:29:08,319
again has some very core of very game tough men,

2272
02:29:08,959 --> 02:29:12,840
but it's unbelievably and most comically corrupt, you know. Uh,

2273
02:29:14,600 --> 02:29:18,000
and it's only kind of held together at the level

2274
02:29:18,040 --> 02:29:23,399
of a general officers by people like Tom Marie, who

2275
02:29:23,399 --> 02:29:26,520
were you know and later surrouno sooner who will get

2276
02:29:26,520 --> 02:29:30,079
into it. Was a great man. But uh, you know,

2277
02:29:31,520 --> 02:29:36,200
cracking the whip on these people was uh what was essential?

2278
02:29:37,000 --> 02:29:39,479
You know. It doesn't owe to some kind of like

2279
02:29:39,520 --> 02:29:43,120
Teutonic racism against you know, Latins or something, which, uh,

2280
02:29:44,360 --> 02:29:47,639
that kind of interpretation has become increasingly common. I've noticed,

2281
02:29:47,719 --> 02:29:50,399
you know, even in like military history, which is supposed

2282
02:29:50,399 --> 02:29:53,159
to be just kind of like hard and fast accounts

2283
02:29:53,200 --> 02:29:58,799
of the facts, you know, and the uh, the quantifiable

2284
02:29:58,840 --> 02:30:02,159
side of things. I think that's bullshit. You know, I mean,

2285
02:30:02,159 --> 02:30:05,719
that's why I but it's also there's what came of

2286
02:30:05,719 --> 02:30:11,600
of uh the Thomery memo was or telegram by Tomac Gott.

2287
02:30:11,639 --> 02:30:14,000
Whatever he wanted, he got everything he wanted, you know,

2288
02:30:14,040 --> 02:30:19,360
and he he basically became the de facto you know,

2289
02:30:19,440 --> 02:30:23,239
commander armored forces for nationalist Spain, you know. And that's

2290
02:30:23,559 --> 02:30:25,399
that goes to short of the degree to which the

2291
02:30:25,440 --> 02:30:30,760
Wehrmacht was the key to you know, uh nationalist victory

2292
02:30:30,760 --> 02:30:37,040
in the war. It wasn't you know, the loof Off

2293
02:30:37,280 --> 02:30:41,000
made a tremendous contribution. And and like we discussed, you know,

2294
02:30:41,319 --> 02:30:45,399
in the previous two episodes, Erhart Milch was was it

2295
02:30:45,440 --> 02:30:49,079
was a was a military genius and an incredible commander

2296
02:30:50,479 --> 02:30:52,760
and one of the greatest air commanders of all time.

2297
02:30:53,520 --> 02:30:56,239
I take nothing away from that, but it was you know,

2298
02:30:56,319 --> 02:31:00,000
wars are won, you know, by by the ground element, Okay,

2299
02:31:00,120 --> 02:31:06,399
they are, and this was essential to that effort. And

2300
02:31:07,840 --> 02:31:11,639
we're not just talking about, you know, with without von Tolma,

2301
02:31:11,760 --> 02:31:14,319
like there is no there is no there is no

2302
02:31:14,479 --> 02:31:17,399
Spanish armored element. You know, you're throwing your you're throwing

2303
02:31:17,440 --> 02:31:19,799
Spanish industry at these t twenty six tanks, they're being

2304
02:31:19,840 --> 02:31:24,559
cut to pieces. You know, is the fact not only

2305
02:31:24,600 --> 02:31:31,120
that he was able to constitute you know, armored force

2306
02:31:31,200 --> 02:31:34,600
or before there had been nothing, but he managed to

2307
02:31:34,600 --> 02:31:37,799
do this really with a handful of of pans or ones,

2308
02:31:38,840 --> 02:31:40,920
armed with a couple of light machine guns and not

2309
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:44,680
particularly durable armor. And he was able to convince a

2310
02:31:44,719 --> 02:31:47,120
much of proud Spaniards to basically like hand him like

2311
02:31:47,200 --> 02:31:50,840
absolute authority over the over the entire enterprise. That's that's

2312
02:31:50,840 --> 02:31:55,680
nothing sort of remarkable. I don't don't think it could

2313
02:31:55,719 --> 02:32:10,799
be contested, but there's uh, subsequent and particularly in like

2314
02:32:10,840 --> 02:32:13,399
the final months of the war in ninet thirty nine,

2315
02:32:13,920 --> 02:32:18,479
they developed this kind of like genuinely amicable cordiality, at

2316
02:32:18,600 --> 02:32:22,920
least as far as you can discern through the language

2317
02:32:22,959 --> 02:32:26,239
barrier and through their you know, brevity of of these

2318
02:32:26,239 --> 02:32:32,799
written communicats and telegrams between Montona and tamer But the uh,

2319
02:32:33,719 --> 02:32:37,840
the rest of these Spanish officers too, who initially had

2320
02:32:37,879 --> 02:32:43,559
a you know, been not out and out hostile because

2321
02:32:43,559 --> 02:32:47,879
they realized the various situation and that they needed they

2322
02:32:47,920 --> 02:32:54,000
needed the Germans. But you know, they certainly Spaniards are

2323
02:32:54,000 --> 02:32:59,200
a proud people. If nothing else and it was a

2324
02:32:59,200 --> 02:33:05,520
better pill for them to swallow a seed control a

2325
02:33:05,680 --> 02:33:07,959
Veramacht officer in that way, although there's no shame in that,

2326
02:33:08,399 --> 02:33:10,920
you know, the Vermont was the best and they're they're

2327
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:18,079
the greatest of all time. By the end of the war, ultimately,

2328
02:33:18,639 --> 02:33:26,120
Spanish tankers they were undergoing a sixty day course basic

2329
02:33:26,200 --> 02:33:33,840
course for all personnel, you know, those uh, those who

2330
02:33:33,879 --> 02:33:36,120
were trained to be drivers as well as those training

2331
02:33:36,120 --> 02:33:40,600
to be gunners. It was thirty days of theoretical training,

2332
02:33:41,159 --> 02:33:47,559
thirty days of practice duration and then UH intensive combat

2333
02:33:47,600 --> 02:33:51,920
training and then deployment to the front as needed. So

2334
02:33:51,959 --> 02:33:56,239
there's a constant you know, like as has discussed a

2335
02:33:56,280 --> 02:34:00,600
moment ago, there was a constant flow of replacements, you

2336
02:34:00,639 --> 02:34:05,440
know who UH had at least cohesion within the squad

2337
02:34:05,559 --> 02:34:09,079
of a KI and that only comes from you know,

2338
02:34:09,120 --> 02:34:14,680
living and UH fighting together ordinarily because they'd gone to

2339
02:34:14,760 --> 02:34:16,799
the training cycle. And a lot of these men were

2340
02:34:16,840 --> 02:34:19,639
combat veterans too, just not of you know, obviously, not

2341
02:34:19,760 --> 02:34:22,559
of fighting an armor. You know, some were, some had

2342
02:34:22,600 --> 02:34:27,559
no no prior experience, but they were the minority. But

2343
02:34:27,680 --> 02:34:37,639
the UH what's fascinating too is that the UH, the

2344
02:34:37,680 --> 02:34:43,559
anti tank element that Montou insisted upon that particular assault gun.

2345
02:34:44,159 --> 02:34:51,760
It was a three point seven centimeter assault gun. It

2346
02:34:51,799 --> 02:34:55,879
was manufactured by Ryan Medel Borsing, and it rapidly became

2347
02:34:55,959 --> 02:35:00,280
ubiquitous like that itself, that like that making lott of

2348
02:35:00,319 --> 02:35:04,639
itself as well as reverse engineered knockoffs in the in

2349
02:35:04,879 --> 02:35:07,239
this in the Red Army, in the in the US Army,

2350
02:35:07,479 --> 02:35:14,120
the Japanese imitated it, uh, the the the Wehrmacht faced

2351
02:35:14,120 --> 02:35:16,319
them in the in the Benlux countries when they went

2352
02:35:16,319 --> 02:35:19,840
through Holland. The Italians deployed it, you know, as late

2353
02:35:19,879 --> 02:35:24,280
as uh as late as forty three, like around the

2354
02:35:24,280 --> 02:35:29,520
time the Celeronal landings. So again, like even even though

2355
02:35:29,840 --> 02:35:33,600
these uh pretty much every pretty much every weapons platform

2356
02:35:33,600 --> 02:35:35,840
we've described again it was like obsolescent, but they had

2357
02:35:35,840 --> 02:35:39,040
been a World War Two. But these were perfectly suited

2358
02:35:39,360 --> 02:35:47,200
to the Spanish battle space, and it was uh, it

2359
02:35:47,280 --> 02:35:51,120
was the experience of these platforms they're you know, in

2360
02:35:51,200 --> 02:35:55,680
heavy combat over years that led to the development of

2361
02:35:56,120 --> 02:36:01,040
you know, successor technologies. And I find that fascinating, and

2362
02:36:02,120 --> 02:36:04,760
you know, that's why, like I said, there's plenty of

2363
02:36:04,799 --> 02:36:12,120
historians who posit that the the Second World War actually

2364
02:36:12,159 --> 02:36:17,079
started in Spain from a historicis's gonna hit the Ali perspective,

2365
02:36:17,799 --> 02:36:21,600
I've got more than a little bit of sympathy for

2366
02:36:21,639 --> 02:36:31,799
that perspective. But it's also military objectives were oddly bound

2367
02:36:31,879 --> 02:36:36,719
up with policy objectives in the twentieth century in a

2368
02:36:36,760 --> 02:36:43,719
way that was not conceivable before or since. And it

2369
02:36:43,760 --> 02:36:47,040
wasn't just that, you know, the German rech and Hitler

2370
02:36:47,120 --> 02:36:55,760
himself had a concept of Laban's wrong and racial posterity

2371
02:36:55,799 --> 02:37:00,200
and the need to develop Europe into a superpower, the

2372
02:37:00,239 --> 02:37:02,680
age of the superpower. It arrived. That was part of it,

2373
02:37:03,040 --> 02:37:09,719
but it owed everybody, from Werner Sombart to George Sorell

2374
02:37:10,000 --> 02:37:15,600
to uh Ernest Younger made the point, you know, sometimes obliquely,

2375
02:37:15,799 --> 02:37:20,280
sometimes very directly that just the nature of labor and

2376
02:37:20,399 --> 02:37:25,079
production and technics in the first half of the twentieth

2377
02:37:25,079 --> 02:37:30,760
century just lent itself to warfare and organized violence at

2378
02:37:30,840 --> 02:37:38,520
scale just became something like potentialities therein like led to

2379
02:37:38,559 --> 02:37:43,479
it being a tactic of first recourse, you know, whether

2380
02:37:43,520 --> 02:37:47,319
you're talking about the internal situation of states or whether

2381
02:37:47,360 --> 02:37:53,000
you're talking about you know, resolving irridentist claims as we're

2382
02:37:53,040 --> 02:38:00,639
always you know, an ongoing issue in a European cabinet politics,

2383
02:38:02,280 --> 02:38:04,840
you know, there's not I made the point again and again.

2384
02:38:07,639 --> 02:38:11,399
It's fascinating that the German contribution to the Enlightenment, kind

2385
02:38:11,399 --> 02:38:15,120
of their only full embrace of rationalism was in military science.

2386
02:38:15,159 --> 02:38:20,040
To Clausalis, But war is not just diplomacy by their

2387
02:38:20,079 --> 02:38:24,959
means or politics by their means. There's always a political

2388
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:27,959
aspect of warfare. But going to war do unders solve

2389
02:38:28,040 --> 02:38:31,639
political problems, you know, in fact, it almost never does.

2390
02:38:33,200 --> 02:38:41,360
The twentieth century, in a rare capacity, there was a

2391
02:38:41,399 --> 02:38:47,799
perfect congruence between military power and the ability to realize

2392
02:38:48,440 --> 02:38:54,399
high political objectives, and that is kind of the moral

2393
02:38:54,399 --> 02:38:57,760
of the story here, if there is one. I realized

2394
02:38:57,760 --> 02:39:02,040
that this was a very heavy, uh, kind of technical discussion,

2395
02:39:02,159 --> 02:39:08,440
but it's important to understanding the German contribution to the war,

2396
02:39:09,120 --> 02:39:11,239
and I wanted to this is this is my dedicated

2397
02:39:11,280 --> 02:39:15,600
Condo Relegion episode. We'll get into the Flange and we'll

2398
02:39:15,600 --> 02:39:18,399
get into the ideology of the Spanish nationalist and we'll

2399
02:39:18,399 --> 02:39:21,680
get into kind of the development of the situation there

2400
02:39:22,360 --> 02:39:24,159
in the next episode. But I wanted to get this

2401
02:39:24,200 --> 02:39:26,239
out of the way. Plus I hope people find it

2402
02:39:26,319 --> 02:39:29,639
interesting because I I mean, admittedly, one of my primary

2403
02:39:29,760 --> 02:39:32,799
research areas is the Third Reich. But even were that

2404
02:39:32,879 --> 02:39:37,760
not the case, that this positive variable in the Spanish

2405
02:39:37,760 --> 02:39:40,879
Civil War was the intervention of condo religion or by

2406
02:39:40,920 --> 02:39:44,360
condo religion. So I think, uh, I think it's just

2407
02:39:44,440 --> 02:39:45,760
material on its own terms.

2408
02:39:46,399 --> 02:39:48,920
Speaker 1: Today has been a long day. Give plugs and we'll

2409
02:39:48,920 --> 02:39:49,559
get out of here.

2410
02:39:50,360 --> 02:39:54,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Man, you can find me always on substeck at

2411
02:39:54,959 --> 02:39:59,079
real Thomas seven seven seven dot subsec dot com in

2412
02:39:59,079 --> 02:40:01,280
a couple of weeks and launching season two of the

2413
02:40:01,319 --> 02:40:04,319
Mind Phaser podcast, and when I do, all the season

2414
02:40:04,399 --> 02:40:07,120
one episodes will be available for free. A lot of

2415
02:40:07,159 --> 02:40:12,399
things are gonna change in my content brand. I think

2416
02:40:12,440 --> 02:40:17,799
everybody will find that to be a positive change. I've

2417
02:40:17,799 --> 02:40:21,920
got a lot going on. I'm still on Twitter, uh,

2418
02:40:22,159 --> 02:40:24,959
but I am trying to disengage from there a bit.

2419
02:40:25,040 --> 02:40:32,520
As I've said, I've uh, I know, I said about

2420
02:40:32,520 --> 02:40:35,479
a week ago, I was gonna drop a statement of

2421
02:40:35,520 --> 02:40:38,520
my substack about moving forward, like how things is gonna

2422
02:40:38,520 --> 02:40:40,719
work relating to you know, I'm gonna make a lot

2423
02:40:40,719 --> 02:40:43,000
more stuff free. But also, like I said, I there's

2424
02:40:43,040 --> 02:40:44,719
some projects I kind of want to plug that I

2425
02:40:44,719 --> 02:40:46,680
I had to put in the back burner, like going

2426
02:40:46,719 --> 02:40:50,040
to frankly like ill health and stuff. But that's back

2427
02:40:50,079 --> 02:40:55,120
on track. I'll explicate that on my substack by this weekend.

2428
02:40:55,799 --> 02:40:57,680
I'm not going to take up Peach time when his

2429
02:40:57,760 --> 02:41:00,959
show to do that. But thanks again for the invitation

2430
02:41:01,319 --> 02:41:04,840
today and always, man, I hope everybody found this to

2431
02:41:04,840 --> 02:41:08,280
be constructive and stimulating well.

2432
02:41:08,120 --> 02:41:10,120
Speaker 1: And I just want to encourage people to go to

2433
02:41:10,159 --> 02:41:14,200
Thomas's substack and subscribe. I mean I I went there,

2434
02:41:14,280 --> 02:41:20,239
read one free article and subscribed and immediately started promoting

2435
02:41:20,719 --> 02:41:24,879
Thomas's work on Twitter. And then Thomas was nice enough

2436
02:41:24,879 --> 02:41:27,520
to come on the show and what is this U

2437
02:41:28,719 --> 02:41:29,920
forty episodes later.

2438
02:41:31,040 --> 02:41:34,159
Speaker 2: No, yeah, that's a fantastic endorsement. Man. I mean not

2439
02:41:34,239 --> 02:41:36,399
just because you're a serious guy and you're my friend,

2440
02:41:36,479 --> 02:41:40,319
but no, I really really appreciate getting me a platform,

2441
02:41:40,399 --> 02:41:44,559
and otherwise I would not have nearly the audience that

2442
02:41:44,600 --> 02:41:46,799
I have. And plus, I mean, like I said, I

2443
02:41:46,840 --> 02:41:51,680
think I hope people we'll get something else, and I

2444
02:41:51,719 --> 02:41:54,920
think they do because feedback has been you know, formally positive,

2445
02:41:54,959 --> 02:41:57,559
and it's not It's not always the case with things

2446
02:41:57,559 --> 02:42:01,000
I do. So yeah, I can't thank you enough, as

2447
02:42:01,000 --> 02:42:02,879
well as the people who tune in and you know,

2448
02:42:02,920 --> 02:42:04,799
were mean engaged. That's just great.

2449
02:42:05,280 --> 02:42:10,600
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thomas, thank you. I want to welcome

2450
02:42:10,600 --> 02:42:14,559
everyone back to the Pecanas Show, part four of the

2451
02:42:14,600 --> 02:42:17,639
Spanish Civil War series. I'm going to turn it over

2452
02:42:17,719 --> 02:42:20,840
to Thomas seven seven seven and just let him go.

2453
02:42:21,079 --> 02:42:22,799
Let me just ask how you doing.

2454
02:42:22,719 --> 02:42:27,200
Speaker 2: Thomas, and very well? Thanks. What I want to talk

2455
02:42:27,200 --> 02:42:30,399
about today? It might seem as I'm jumping around a

2456
02:42:30,440 --> 02:42:32,520
lot on the topic, and forgive me for that, but

2457
02:42:33,959 --> 02:42:35,799
there's some things that I sort of want to tie in,

2458
02:42:37,280 --> 02:42:42,319
not just to our earlier series, revisionist series that we've done,

2459
02:42:44,200 --> 02:42:46,959
but also people have been asking questions that I want

2460
02:42:47,000 --> 02:42:51,600
to kind of address now, you know, one of which

2461
02:42:51,680 --> 02:42:56,840
is to us just two things. People ask me why

2462
02:42:56,879 --> 02:43:01,000
I'm so critical of Franco, because the Franco somewhat revered,

2463
02:43:01,639 --> 02:43:04,280
and part of that owes the frankly kind of the

2464
02:43:04,360 --> 02:43:08,799
lingering kind of a lingering Cold War hangover, you know,

2465
02:43:08,879 --> 02:43:12,000
especially after Spain sort of normalides, and you know, not

2466
02:43:12,559 --> 02:43:15,159
it was brought into the the e C at least

2467
02:43:15,159 --> 02:43:17,959
in a rudimentary way, I mean ship back then it

2468
02:43:18,000 --> 02:43:19,879
was the European It was the e c S, the

2469
02:43:19,879 --> 02:43:23,079
Cold and Steel Community, you know, by Eisenhower. It wasn't

2470
02:43:23,159 --> 02:43:26,120
until much later that Spain was assimilated in the NATO.

2471
02:43:26,840 --> 02:43:32,280
But the Franco regime is always it's uh. And I

2472
02:43:32,360 --> 02:43:35,840
mean even before that officially assimilated and formally assimilated in NATO,

2473
02:43:36,879 --> 02:43:38,920
there was a lot of you know, during command post

2474
02:43:38,920 --> 02:43:41,399
exercises and stuff, you know, like Spain would you know,

2475
02:43:41,440 --> 02:43:47,159
be included in a basic way there was Spain was

2476
02:43:47,239 --> 02:43:49,879
kind of viewed as you know, the good guy, uh,

2477
02:43:50,040 --> 02:43:54,479
like quasi fascist regime during the Cold War. And I

2478
02:43:54,520 --> 02:43:57,959
think that a lot of scholarship, like otherwise pretty based

2479
02:43:58,000 --> 02:44:00,920
and pretty correct, you know, right when it's dollarship. You know,

2480
02:44:01,079 --> 02:44:04,399
that was written in like the seventies and in the eighties.

2481
02:44:04,680 --> 02:44:10,159
You know, I think people internalize that. And also you know,

2482
02:44:10,200 --> 02:44:12,120
their their kind of view of Franco is of you know,

2483
02:44:12,159 --> 02:44:15,840
the Flange movement and you know the heroics of of

2484
02:44:15,879 --> 02:44:18,559
the war and you know kind of reliegion and all

2485
02:44:18,559 --> 02:44:23,840
of that. You know, they they they don't realize kind

2486
02:44:23,840 --> 02:44:28,000
of how perfect it is and and and machiavellian Franco was.

2487
02:44:28,120 --> 02:44:30,479
And I think that could be justified if if what

2488
02:44:30,520 --> 02:44:35,840
Franco accomplished with some sort of enduring political culture, you know,

2489
02:44:35,920 --> 02:44:39,639
that of that that served you know, the Spanish as

2490
02:44:39,639 --> 02:44:41,959
a people, you know, and as as a race, you know,

2491
02:44:42,000 --> 02:44:44,600
in historical terms and things, But that that's not at

2492
02:44:44,639 --> 02:44:46,840
all what he accomplished. I mean, Franco at the end

2493
02:44:46,840 --> 02:44:49,639
of the day, accomplished nothing. I'd say that he was

2494
02:44:49,639 --> 02:44:53,879
a detriment you know, over the over the long term.

2495
02:44:53,959 --> 02:44:56,000
But you know, so people ask, I want to get

2496
02:44:56,000 --> 02:44:59,879
into a little bit like what exactly you know, Franco's

2497
02:45:00,120 --> 02:45:04,040
sensibilities were on political matters, you know, pritically at the

2498
02:45:04,079 --> 02:45:08,680
most critical junctures, you know which and the most critical

2499
02:45:08,719 --> 02:45:13,680
obviously would would be the the warriors that the Second

2500
02:45:13,719 --> 02:45:17,079
World War, I mean not the Spanish War. But also

2501
02:45:17,120 --> 02:45:19,319
people ask me like what what exactly was the nature

2502
02:45:19,360 --> 02:45:23,120
of the relationship, you know, between Madrid and Berlin and

2503
02:45:23,120 --> 02:45:26,680
and Madrid and the rest of the Access Alliance, and uh,

2504
02:45:26,799 --> 02:45:30,040
you know, I've made the point that Serrano soon there

2505
02:45:30,319 --> 02:45:32,760
was a great man, and he was very you know,

2506
02:45:32,799 --> 02:45:34,959
he was he was very very pro axis. You know,

2507
02:45:35,040 --> 02:45:37,959
he he wanted to formally join the Access Alliance. And

2508
02:45:37,959 --> 02:45:39,680
we'll get into who soon there was in a minute,

2509
02:45:39,719 --> 02:45:41,920
but so I kind of want to get into that

2510
02:45:42,559 --> 02:45:46,479
today and then we'll pivot in the next episode and

2511
02:45:46,520 --> 02:45:49,040
talk about, you know what the Falange movement was proper

2512
02:45:49,680 --> 02:45:59,600
and ye pick up as a follow up, uh, you know,

2513
02:45:59,639 --> 02:46:02,399
to the ear each a episode we just did. But

2514
02:46:02,520 --> 02:46:05,280
for now, for today, that's that's what I want to cover.

2515
02:46:05,559 --> 02:46:07,200
And plus it's like on my mind, I was, I

2516
02:46:07,239 --> 02:46:09,280
was researching this a bunch, like owing to some other

2517
02:46:09,319 --> 02:46:12,079
stuff I'm writing. So, I mean, it's convenient too, There's

2518
02:46:12,120 --> 02:46:13,600
only so much time in the day, and while it's

2519
02:46:13,639 --> 02:46:16,280
like fresh in my mind, That's kind of what I

2520
02:46:16,319 --> 02:46:23,719
wanted to get into. David Irving who I I mean,

2521
02:46:23,760 --> 02:46:25,680
it goes out saying I've got a huge esteem for him.

2522
02:46:26,360 --> 02:46:28,840
Irving lived in Spain and one of his one of

2523
02:46:28,879 --> 02:46:31,079
the one of his wives was a Spanish woman. I

2524
02:46:31,079 --> 02:46:35,239
think his first wife was a Spanish woman, and he

2525
02:46:35,280 --> 02:46:39,520
famously said life and quote life in Spain during the

2526
02:46:39,559 --> 02:46:43,479
Franco years was very cheap, very simple, and very unthreatening.

2527
02:46:43,760 --> 02:46:47,280
There's little criminality, no drugs and no street muggings. The

2528
02:46:47,399 --> 02:46:50,680
roads were primitive, the life was quiet, and the sunshine

2529
02:46:50,719 --> 02:46:52,920
meet up for everything. I mean that was kind of

2530
02:46:53,840 --> 02:46:56,479
In some ways that's like a very English like backhanded compliment.

2531
02:46:56,799 --> 02:47:00,479
In other ways it's you know, it's it's a very

2532
02:47:00,520 --> 02:47:05,040
on the nose suggestion that you know, Spain was just

2533
02:47:05,559 --> 02:47:08,319
remained a backwater, you know. I mean, I realized there

2534
02:47:08,319 --> 02:47:13,520
was a Spanish miracle and uh, you know, conspiracy conspiracy

2535
02:47:13,520 --> 02:47:15,879
minded types like say like oh that was Opus day,

2536
02:47:15,920 --> 02:47:19,920
you know, laundering money through Spain under rospices of economic development.

2537
02:47:19,920 --> 02:47:21,559
I don't even I don't have any opinion on that.

2538
02:47:21,559 --> 02:47:25,079
I don't. I don't get to know interesting Catholic fights,

2539
02:47:25,559 --> 02:47:27,799
and I'm not a biggest I don't. I don't tear

2540
02:47:27,840 --> 02:47:32,120
down the Catholic Church, you know, at every opportunity like

2541
02:47:32,159 --> 02:47:37,319
some revisionists do, pite the contrary, but regardless anyone's feelings

2542
02:47:37,360 --> 02:47:39,639
on that, I mean, Spain was not exactly lighting the

2543
02:47:39,639 --> 02:47:43,079
world on fire, okay, like in the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies,

2544
02:47:43,120 --> 02:47:48,959
you know it it Uh, it remained kind of an splendid,

2545
02:47:49,760 --> 02:47:52,959
splendid isolation. It was I think about almost as kind

2546
02:47:52,959 --> 02:47:54,719
of like a right wing version of of like the

2547
02:47:54,760 --> 02:47:58,239
Tito model, you know, like obviously like there there wasn't

2548
02:47:58,559 --> 02:48:01,239
I mean that there, I realized that Spain's you know,

2549
02:48:01,559 --> 02:48:04,319
had and has like you know, violence, separatist movements, and

2550
02:48:04,360 --> 02:48:06,959
it's ethnically diverse. But you know, obviously it's it's nothing

2551
02:48:07,000 --> 02:48:12,079
like the hostility between between populations like in the Balkans.

2552
02:48:12,120 --> 02:48:14,959
But you know, Tito's whole notion was to keep you know,

2553
02:48:15,440 --> 02:48:17,399
just kind of keep things frozen and keep this kind

2554
02:48:17,399 --> 02:48:22,440
of quarantine almost like prophylactic armor like over you know,

2555
02:48:22,479 --> 02:48:26,440
the the the nation of the Constitute of Yugoslavia like

2556
02:48:26,479 --> 02:48:28,680
contrivances it may have been as a state. You know,

2557
02:48:28,719 --> 02:48:30,879
it kept the Soviet Union out, it kept America out,

2558
02:48:31,200 --> 02:48:33,399
it kept everybody out, you know, kept the Germans out,

2559
02:48:34,360 --> 02:48:39,440
the bundesh and even even Germany was very much tethered

2560
02:48:39,440 --> 02:48:41,719
to the Balkans and not in geostrategic terms, you know,

2561
02:48:41,760 --> 02:48:43,879
as we talked about before. It's why Helmet Cole immediately

2562
02:48:43,920 --> 02:48:48,399
recognized two Jamon's independent Croatia. But the point is, uh,

2563
02:48:48,719 --> 02:48:52,120
such that Franko accomplished anything. I mean, he basically yeah,

2564
02:48:52,159 --> 02:48:56,639
he basically just uh you know, he basically just just

2565
02:48:56,639 --> 02:48:59,079
just put Spain under like lock and key, like you know,

2566
02:48:59,239 --> 02:49:03,639
in every concee sense, like figuratively and literally, but again

2567
02:49:03,680 --> 02:49:11,360
that's not that doesn't generate anything sustainable. So what what uh?

2568
02:49:12,440 --> 02:49:20,920
What exactly happened between Germany and Spain? Rib and Troup

2569
02:49:21,120 --> 02:49:25,319
was you know, as foreign minister was primarily charged with

2570
02:49:26,000 --> 02:49:34,120
finessing the Franco regime, you know, to join the war effort.

2571
02:49:34,159 --> 02:49:38,719
Speaker 3: It uh, And can ask a question before you all

2572
02:49:39,120 --> 02:49:43,040
this this this is something that people would ask were

2573
02:49:43,040 --> 02:49:45,879
they in any kind of shape to join?

2574
02:49:46,360 --> 02:49:49,479
Speaker 1: I mean they just went through three at three and

2575
02:49:49,479 --> 02:49:50,479
a half years of hell.

2576
02:49:52,440 --> 02:49:54,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're going to get into that. Like Franco ahead,

2577
02:49:55,920 --> 02:49:59,280
Franco had a list quite literally ever increasing material demands,

2578
02:49:59,360 --> 02:50:03,440
with material and political demands that had to be met

2579
02:50:03,479 --> 02:50:07,600
for Spain to join the war effort. Owing to that

2580
02:50:08,840 --> 02:50:14,639
very reality, however, it fairly quickly became clear that he

2581
02:50:14,760 --> 02:50:19,319
was not negotiating in good faith. You know. The the

2582
02:50:19,319 --> 02:50:21,120
the extent of these demands was such that they just

2583
02:50:21,159 --> 02:50:22,879
they could not be met, you know, and that was

2584
02:50:22,920 --> 02:50:25,399
the whole point. But we'll get into that in a minute.

2585
02:50:25,920 --> 02:50:32,639
But what what the Reich needed the Spain? The Reich needed, uh,

2586
02:50:33,399 --> 02:50:38,000
the Reich needed unconditional access to Gibraltar. The Reich needed

2587
02:50:38,000 --> 02:50:42,239
the Spanish to join in Africa and abandon you know,

2588
02:50:42,360 --> 02:50:47,120
the uh, the uh, the uncompromising claims they were making

2589
02:50:47,159 --> 02:50:52,959
on French Africa as well, particularly not exclusively Morocco. Finally,

2590
02:50:54,600 --> 02:50:58,159
Spain basically needed to needed to do avail itself as

2591
02:50:58,399 --> 02:51:01,600
as as part of Fortress Europe as uh. You know,

2592
02:51:01,680 --> 02:51:05,600
France that had done admittedly like post defeat, and France

2593
02:51:05,639 --> 02:51:08,479
plays into this equation more than people might think. Okay,

2594
02:51:08,559 --> 02:51:12,479
the UH, France and Germany despite what people claim, like

2595
02:51:12,879 --> 02:51:15,559
there was not like VC France and then free France.

2596
02:51:15,719 --> 02:51:21,799
I mean it's uh. Obviously the Gaul was uh, you know,

2597
02:51:21,840 --> 02:51:24,840
the Allies were suggesting that you know, de Gaul was

2598
02:51:24,879 --> 02:51:29,079
the true like you know, French president in exile and

2599
02:51:29,120 --> 02:51:33,440
that you know, Peten's regime was illegitimate. But Peten was

2600
02:51:33,440 --> 02:51:37,840
literally a national hero, okay, and the French accepted the

2601
02:51:37,879 --> 02:51:42,399
fact that they were defeated. You know, I posted up

2602
02:51:42,440 --> 02:51:46,479
the other week or the other day of my timeline

2603
02:51:46,840 --> 02:51:49,879
footage of uh. You know, the Germans like you know

2604
02:51:50,879 --> 02:51:55,719
allowing uh, allowing the defeated French like full honors and

2605
02:51:55,959 --> 02:51:58,159
allowing to like march past you know, the Wehrmacht like

2606
02:51:58,200 --> 02:52:00,639
as they were like saluted, you know, and in full

2607
02:52:00,719 --> 02:52:03,040
regalia and everything. I mean, this was very much of a

2608
02:52:03,120 --> 02:52:07,959
Westphalian paradigm at work. Okay, you know this idea that

2609
02:52:08,040 --> 02:52:10,479
you know, France just hated Germany with this kind of

2610
02:52:10,479 --> 02:52:13,440
like hell bent passion, and you know, the v regime

2611
02:52:13,600 --> 02:52:16,399
was was was completely contrived and was a fiction like

2612
02:52:16,440 --> 02:52:22,719
that's not true. And furthermore, the British immediately uh began

2613
02:52:22,799 --> 02:52:28,479
attacking French forces in Africa. You know, they killed thousands

2614
02:52:28,520 --> 02:52:31,319
of people, you know, not French touristmen, civilians. I mean

2615
02:52:31,319 --> 02:52:36,680
we'll get into that too. But essentially, what the Reich

2616
02:52:36,799 --> 02:52:41,639
needed in the West, they needed France and Spain somehow

2617
02:52:41,680 --> 02:52:47,040
come to terms, you know, on sovereign claims in Africa.

2618
02:52:48,440 --> 02:52:53,600
Spain had to you know, cooperate operationally and politically with

2619
02:52:53,760 --> 02:52:59,159
you know, a Gibraltar operation, and you know, Spain had

2620
02:52:59,159 --> 02:53:03,559
to fortify and you know, prepare for prepared to resist

2621
02:53:03,760 --> 02:53:11,280
any Anglo American assault a Spanish or Portuguese coastal soil

2622
02:53:14,399 --> 02:53:18,879
and those those you know, those were basically like what

2623
02:53:20,840 --> 02:53:25,440
the fears and ambitions were. But even then, as things

2624
02:53:25,440 --> 02:53:29,200
had developed, I mean with respect to you know the

2625
02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:33,440
pattern of hostilities between combatants, you know, regardless of ideology,

2626
02:53:33,520 --> 02:53:35,079
because you know, the war in the West was very

2627
02:53:35,120 --> 02:53:37,000
different than the war in the East. There were certain

2628
02:53:37,040 --> 02:53:43,840
complexities present there, even in purely geostrategic terms. This what

2629
02:53:43,920 --> 02:53:46,360
I just outlined is what would have what would have

2630
02:53:46,399 --> 02:53:54,239
been required, Okay, you know, notwithstanding the idiosyncracies the actually

2631
02:53:54,239 --> 02:53:58,079
were perceived of, you know, the respective regimes in place

2632
02:53:58,159 --> 02:54:06,600
and in Vase, in Berlin and in Madrid. It uh.

2633
02:54:06,959 --> 02:54:16,120
On September nineteen forty was uh when Hitler first directed

2634
02:54:16,200 --> 02:54:18,399
Ribbon traup, you know, to push as hard as he

2635
02:54:18,479 --> 02:54:23,799
could for the Spanish to cooperate with you know, Gibraltar

2636
02:54:23,840 --> 02:54:25,959
offensive and to you know, encourage him to join what

2637
02:54:26,040 --> 02:54:31,399
he called the Grand Coalition. Hitler said to Ribin Trump

2638
02:54:31,399 --> 02:54:35,239
and on certain terms every aspirant would have to be

2639
02:54:35,319 --> 02:54:37,680
left and the quote heavy belief that his wishes would

2640
02:54:37,680 --> 02:54:42,079
be largely fulfilled. Rybond Troup wrote in his own notes

2641
02:54:42,159 --> 02:54:44,760
that to accomplish this would require quote fraud on a

2642
02:54:44,799 --> 02:54:48,680
grand scale. Raymond Tropp wasn't saying, like, oh, Hitler you know,

2643
02:54:48,879 --> 02:54:52,200
was uh was you know, anticipating, you know, perpetuating such

2644
02:54:52,200 --> 02:54:54,280
a fraud. Like what he was saying was that Hitler's

2645
02:54:54,360 --> 02:54:57,520
dreaming because this can't be realized, going to the going

2646
02:54:57,559 --> 02:55:02,159
to the unwillingness of the of the the parties, to

2647
02:55:02,280 --> 02:55:09,600
the you know, to you know, to the situation, you know,

2648
02:55:09,639 --> 02:55:14,600
and their and their unwillingness to you know, compromise on

2649
02:55:14,799 --> 02:55:17,319
issues that might appear to be of secondary importance from

2650
02:55:17,479 --> 02:55:19,920
you know, where Hitler was sitting in Berlin, but you know,

2651
02:55:20,159 --> 02:55:25,840
was of paramount importance to you know, to them, and

2652
02:55:28,000 --> 02:55:30,159
looking at it too, like it wasn't just a prestige

2653
02:55:30,200 --> 02:55:33,639
thing what Spain and France were looking at in Africa.

2654
02:55:33,840 --> 02:55:39,440
I mean these particularly with the you know, the uh,

2655
02:55:39,799 --> 02:55:49,799
the realization of strategic air power. But yeah, uh, these

2656
02:55:49,959 --> 02:55:52,920
were extential matters of of of security, you know, to

2657
02:55:53,000 --> 02:55:57,879
the states that orded the Mediterranean. So I mean that

2658
02:55:57,879 --> 02:56:00,120
that should be that should be clear. And plus to

2659
02:56:00,239 --> 02:56:03,120
the you know, the Spain in France were not. There

2660
02:56:03,159 --> 02:56:05,719
wasn't the there wasn't the ongoing you know kind of enmity,

2661
02:56:05,920 --> 02:56:07,639
you know, only the kind of the tragedy of strategic

2662
02:56:07,719 --> 02:56:10,000
situation that there was between Germany and France. But France

2663
02:56:10,040 --> 02:56:13,280
and Spain weren't natural allies by any means, you know,

2664
02:56:13,280 --> 02:56:14,559
I mean, it's not it's not as if there's some

2665
02:56:14,600 --> 02:56:16,760
sort of you know, common bond owing to you know,

2666
02:56:16,879 --> 02:56:20,600
Latin heritage and the Roman Church or something. It did

2667
02:56:20,639 --> 02:56:24,559
it Really it was just absence, even between Portugal, even

2668
02:56:24,600 --> 02:56:27,159
between sales there's Portugal and Franco Spain. I mean that

2669
02:56:27,239 --> 02:56:31,879
didn't exist, you know, I mean it wasn't that might

2670
02:56:31,920 --> 02:56:34,280
seem strange on some level the people who live, you know,

2671
02:56:34,319 --> 02:56:36,879
in kind of the globalized twenty first century, but at

2672
02:56:36,920 --> 02:56:44,159
the same time, like it doesn't, you know, Europe, a

2673
02:56:44,200 --> 02:56:45,920
lot of these a lot of these political cultures were

2674
02:56:45,920 --> 02:56:48,319
still mired and kind of like the War in States period,

2675
02:56:49,520 --> 02:56:54,799
you know, which endured in Europe until nineteen fourteen. I mean,

2676
02:56:55,040 --> 02:56:58,559
you know, and not you know, in a in a

2677
02:56:58,600 --> 02:57:02,920
real sense. I'm talking about abstrac postules here. Something. There's

2678
02:57:02,920 --> 02:57:04,760
that to keep in mind too. Even a Franco was

2679
02:57:04,799 --> 02:57:08,200
more worldly. And even if the ten was you know,

2680
02:57:08,239 --> 02:57:11,920
a younger man and not you know, this kind of

2681
02:57:11,920 --> 02:57:18,840
inflexible you know, Octageneerian Field Marshal I. I don't think

2682
02:57:19,760 --> 02:57:23,840
it would have been any easier to accommodate them, you know,

2683
02:57:23,879 --> 02:57:30,920
these kind of competing egos and demands. The uh what

2684
02:57:31,040 --> 02:57:37,319
Hitler's plan was at the Berghoff. You know. He his

2685
02:57:37,440 --> 02:57:41,559
timetable was this, he was going to contact a former

2686
02:57:41,600 --> 02:57:46,879
French ambassador, Poncet or Poncet, who Hitler had always had

2687
02:57:46,879 --> 02:57:51,559
a good rapport with. He was gonna feel him out

2688
02:57:51,639 --> 02:57:54,399
about a personal meeting with the ten and basically use

2689
02:57:54,520 --> 02:57:59,920
him as kind of like his unofficial emissary. He would

2690
02:58:00,040 --> 02:58:02,280
would visited to pretend, he would make his pitch to

2691
02:58:02,319 --> 02:58:08,959
contain that, you know, the United Kingdom, regardless of the

2692
02:58:08,959 --> 02:58:11,120
outcome this war, is going to leave France out to dry.

2693
02:58:13,079 --> 02:58:18,440
You know, they've humiliated they've humiliated France not just at

2694
02:58:18,479 --> 02:58:23,520
the car but also by you know, assaulting and sinking.

2695
02:58:25,600 --> 02:58:34,399
It's a navy in uh Algeria. You know, it's it's you.

2696
02:58:34,399 --> 02:58:36,360
You have to accept the situation as it is that

2697
02:58:36,440 --> 02:58:39,879
you know, France and London are at war and you

2698
02:58:39,920 --> 02:58:43,840
know Germany is really, uh the only port you have

2699
02:58:43,920 --> 02:58:49,040
in a storm. And once he got a war guaranty

2700
02:58:49,200 --> 02:58:53,719
from Paten, he would take that to Franco and UH

2701
02:58:54,959 --> 02:59:01,319
ask Franco to advocate if not moderate Rich demands to Morocco.

2702
02:59:01,639 --> 02:59:04,520
Take that to pretend and used as the basis for

2703
02:59:04,600 --> 02:59:09,760
future collaboration, which seems somewhat hair brained, but again, a

2704
02:59:09,760 --> 02:59:13,079
lot of what Hitler got done was based on personal

2705
02:59:13,120 --> 02:59:15,440
relationships and the fact that he was able to finesse

2706
02:59:15,479 --> 02:59:20,239
these relationships into actual policy commitments. Something this precedent for this,

2707
02:59:20,520 --> 02:59:24,399
and what Hitler had accomplished in the proceeding, you know,

2708
02:59:24,799 --> 02:59:30,719
several years, including after September nineteen thirty nine, you know,

2709
02:59:30,760 --> 02:59:34,159
so this was not just a pipe dream, and people

2710
02:59:34,239 --> 02:59:36,239
can't just dismiss it out right as oh, you know,

2711
02:59:36,360 --> 02:59:38,959
that was just Hitler being crazy, because everyone knows Hitler

2712
02:59:38,959 --> 02:59:44,440
went crazy, you know, after after you know, the Battle

2713
02:59:44,479 --> 02:59:46,559
of Moscow or something or whatever they like to say.

2714
02:59:47,479 --> 02:59:56,040
But Hitler interestingly too Pierre Leval, who was the Prime

2715
02:59:56,079 --> 02:59:59,920
Minister of France, he ended up being the prime mini

2716
03:00:00,000 --> 03:00:02,719
from nineteen forty two to forty four, April forty two

2717
03:00:02,840 --> 03:00:05,719
to August forty four, you know, and he'd served previously

2718
03:00:05,879 --> 03:00:08,559
in the in the same role in the Third Republic

2719
03:00:08,799 --> 03:00:12,319
from thirty one to thirty two, and then i think

2720
03:00:12,760 --> 03:00:16,319
from ninety thirty five to thirty six thirty seven. So

2721
03:00:16,440 --> 03:00:19,479
again that and Hitler and Laval had had a basic

2722
03:00:19,559 --> 03:00:24,200
rapport or there their respective liaisons, did you know. But

2723
03:00:24,319 --> 03:00:27,440
again I raised this because it becomes somewhat significant later.

2724
03:00:27,520 --> 03:00:31,479
But it's also like Laval again, he he was serving

2725
03:00:31,520 --> 03:00:34,639
you know the quote VC government, which supposedly was you know,

2726
03:00:34,719 --> 03:00:37,719
this illegitimate regime. I mean, this was not uncommon. I mean,

2727
03:00:37,760 --> 03:00:39,040
he was one of the most he was one of

2728
03:00:39,079 --> 03:00:50,559
the more prominent you know, cabinet ministers who it's off

2729
03:00:50,639 --> 03:00:53,040
in the same role that he had before. It's like

2730
03:00:53,159 --> 03:00:54,559
the idea this was just some kind of like you know,

2731
03:00:54,639 --> 03:00:56,559
client regime that you know had no kind of like

2732
03:00:56,639 --> 03:01:06,280
organic legitimacy or something is nonsense. But Hitler, uh, Hitler

2733
03:01:06,959 --> 03:01:13,440
sent out feelers to Laval as well for the purpose

2734
03:01:13,559 --> 03:01:16,639
of h and Laval didn't have any formal office at

2735
03:01:16,639 --> 03:01:19,920
this point, for for the purpose of getting a personal

2736
03:01:20,000 --> 03:01:24,840
audience with Patent, which was no easy thing. And again

2737
03:01:26,920 --> 03:01:29,079
you know, it tells you too like Hitler's approaching Paten,

2738
03:01:29,399 --> 03:01:31,719
you know, carefully, and he's treating him with all the

2739
03:01:31,760 --> 03:01:35,680
honor and respect of a field marshal. But also as

2740
03:01:35,719 --> 03:01:37,879
you know, with sovereign had a state, you know, I mean,

2741
03:01:37,959 --> 03:01:43,120
like think about this, and especially Hitler, who was definitely

2742
03:01:43,159 --> 03:01:49,079
more kind of cultured and diplomatically cautious than people allege,

2743
03:01:49,399 --> 03:01:52,440
but who is not exactly you know, a man who

2744
03:01:52,440 --> 03:01:56,639
favored a for nests over or action sometimes brute action

2745
03:01:56,760 --> 03:01:58,920
and the threat of it. You know, it's like if if,

2746
03:01:59,280 --> 03:02:02,399
if the VC regime is this completely artificial regime, Like

2747
03:02:02,440 --> 03:02:05,000
why isn't a Hitler just directing the Tan to do

2748
03:02:05,079 --> 03:02:09,200
whatever he orders? You know? I mean it's that right there.

2749
03:02:09,399 --> 03:02:13,280
I mean kind of shoots the pieces the the narrative

2750
03:02:13,319 --> 03:02:17,079
of you know, VC being artificial or you know, France

2751
03:02:17,200 --> 03:02:20,959
just either like not existing after you know, cessation of

2752
03:02:20,959 --> 03:02:23,879
hostilities in nineteen forty, or you know being this is

2753
03:02:23,920 --> 03:02:31,799
completely astro turf like artificial edifice, you know. And I

2754
03:02:32,000 --> 03:02:34,000
bring it up to people again and again, and.

2755
03:02:35,239 --> 03:02:37,799
Speaker 1: I mean you went, you went over in in the

2756
03:02:37,840 --> 03:02:43,040
World War two series that when American troops landed in Africa,

2757
03:02:43,040 --> 03:02:45,280
who were the first people firing upon them?

2758
03:02:45,440 --> 03:02:47,319
Speaker 2: Yeah? It was the French and it was well it's

2759
03:02:47,360 --> 03:02:51,360
old too. Yeah, I mean Darlan, who was the you know,

2760
03:02:51,399 --> 03:02:55,159
who was the Martinette or I don't even know what

2761
03:02:55,159 --> 03:02:57,799
you'd call him, procurator, you know, maybe I mean, here's

2762
03:02:57,799 --> 03:03:02,559
the military leader of a French Africa and yeah, he

2763
03:03:02,840 --> 03:03:08,000
Darlan considered VF to be the legitimate government of France,

2764
03:03:08,120 --> 03:03:10,600
and he considered France to be at war with the

2765
03:03:10,680 --> 03:03:13,280
United States of America. So yeah, I mean it doesn't,

2766
03:03:14,840 --> 03:03:17,680
it doesn't. Yeah, you got you gotta look at France

2767
03:03:17,719 --> 03:03:20,799
as one of these not obviously they were not formally

2768
03:03:22,719 --> 03:03:24,680
part of the access to alliance and there wasn't that

2769
03:03:24,760 --> 03:03:27,520
kind of command and control integration, you know that uh,

2770
03:03:28,120 --> 03:03:31,040
you know, such was the case with you know, like Romania,

2771
03:03:31,440 --> 03:03:37,479
but or Italy. But they definitely were on the side

2772
03:03:37,520 --> 03:03:40,360
of the axis where the rubber I'm at the road

2773
03:03:40,440 --> 03:03:44,319
and the key theater of engagement such that you know,

2774
03:03:44,399 --> 03:03:48,479
France was still capable of projecting power to protect its

2775
03:03:48,479 --> 03:03:51,639
its core interests. And yeah, exactly that was in that

2776
03:03:51,719 --> 03:03:58,520
was in Africa. Now what did lebal say and is

2777
03:03:58,639 --> 03:04:03,440
uh response to Hitler? This very much emboldened to Hitler

2778
03:04:04,399 --> 03:04:08,559
with respect to you know, his Mediterranean strategy and his

2779
03:04:08,680 --> 03:04:11,680
ultimate goal of you know, bringing Frank go into the fold.

2780
03:04:11,719 --> 03:04:15,799
After his meeting with the ten, like Laval said, you know,

2781
03:04:17,440 --> 03:04:21,680
Britain the dragged France into an unwanted war then abandoned

2782
03:04:21,680 --> 03:04:25,959
her you know then you know, made war honor for

2783
03:04:26,079 --> 03:04:28,920
smirching her honor and killing her people at the Nurse

2784
03:04:28,920 --> 03:04:33,399
el Kabur a breached catapult. That was July ninety forty,

2785
03:04:33,399 --> 03:04:38,399
that's where the British assaulted destroyed the French fleet, killing

2786
03:04:39,079 --> 03:04:44,079
over twelve hundred people like French servicemen and civilians. And

2787
03:04:44,120 --> 03:04:47,920
then more recently in September as we in the as

2788
03:04:47,920 --> 03:04:50,680
we mentioned in the port of the car in French

2789
03:04:50,719 --> 03:04:56,600
West Africa, and again several hundred not just servicemen but

2790
03:04:56,799 --> 03:05:01,600
French civilians were killed. But friend force is held, you know,

2791
03:05:01,680 --> 03:05:09,440
and Lavelle promised, uh to return, you know, to see this,

2792
03:05:09,680 --> 03:05:13,440
you know, to seek audience with the ten and uh,

2793
03:05:13,479 --> 03:05:15,319
you know, return of the answer in two days time.

2794
03:05:15,959 --> 03:05:26,000
And uh that's uh, that's exactly what he did. October

2795
03:05:26,040 --> 03:05:35,600
twenty third, Hitler believed ninety forty two days subsequent. Hitler

2796
03:05:35,680 --> 03:05:40,440
believed that Franco's willingness would absolutely depend on the tenor

2797
03:05:40,520 --> 03:05:50,520
of uh of of of the approach to it. Uh

2798
03:05:51,680 --> 03:05:56,879
like what is yeah, like, what is meant by that?

2799
03:05:57,120 --> 03:05:57,600
Speaker 1: Is that.

2800
03:06:02,200 --> 03:06:04,319
Speaker 2: Spain at least had to have they had to believe

2801
03:06:04,360 --> 03:06:08,920
at least that Hitler was advocating for the legitimacy their

2802
03:06:08,920 --> 03:06:12,399
claims in Africa and the Mediterranean and treating Spain like

2803
03:06:12,399 --> 03:06:15,719
something of a great something of a great power, like

2804
03:06:15,760 --> 03:06:18,639
however preposterous that might seem. And I think in that regard,

2805
03:06:18,680 --> 03:06:23,959
like Hitler had Franco's number, and it wasn't just uh,

2806
03:06:24,479 --> 03:06:26,680
it wasn't just for sake of appearances, like the way

2807
03:06:26,959 --> 03:06:30,799
you know it was. It wasn't just like some people speculate,

2808
03:06:31,079 --> 03:06:33,520
and I mean Franco was a limited guy and and

2809
03:06:33,520 --> 03:06:35,959
and kind of a buffoon like a lot of people

2810
03:06:36,159 --> 03:06:38,280
I've read it speculated like, well, you know, this was

2811
03:06:38,319 --> 03:06:42,360
only for domestic you know, consumption, because Franco didn't have

2812
03:06:42,440 --> 03:06:44,639
an actual mandate anyway other than from this kind of

2813
03:06:44,639 --> 03:06:50,079
coterie of officers and you know, and uh and phialangists

2814
03:06:50,159 --> 03:06:51,920
who are who are a minority within the party, I

2815
03:06:51,959 --> 03:06:54,239
might add, you know who kind of agreed to cooperate

2816
03:06:54,600 --> 03:06:57,000
every sensation of hostilities. I don't believe it to be

2817
03:06:57,000 --> 03:07:00,479
true at all. I think, uh, as time went on,

2818
03:07:00,559 --> 03:07:02,399
and as we'll get into and as I mentioned this,

2819
03:07:02,440 --> 03:07:06,319
before we went live, Franco's demands we were deliberately like

2820
03:07:06,360 --> 03:07:08,920
so up tos and so unreasonable that you know, it

2821
03:07:09,000 --> 03:07:11,200
was it was kind of his way out of joining

2822
03:07:11,440 --> 03:07:16,000
the war, but these demands, like you know, Franko's obsession

2823
03:07:16,079 --> 03:07:20,280
with Morocco, you know him, you know, saying you wanted

2824
03:07:20,319 --> 03:07:24,520
like equality of status like in you know, in terms

2825
03:07:24,520 --> 03:07:27,040
of maritime passage and the Mediterranean. Like he meant all

2826
03:07:27,040 --> 03:07:29,200
these things like on their own terms, like over stupid

2827
03:07:29,239 --> 03:07:33,680
that might seem. And he uh, he actually viewed Spain

2828
03:07:33,719 --> 03:07:36,840
as some like serious major power, you know, and again

2829
03:07:36,920 --> 03:07:42,799
like raposterous? Is that? Uh? As that might seem. As

2830
03:07:42,840 --> 03:07:50,120
it happened, Hitler met with UH. Hitler and the UH

2831
03:07:51,159 --> 03:07:56,680
Ribbent troup and the UH the diplomatic contingent was the

2832
03:07:56,719 --> 03:08:00,440
diplomatic contingent respectively, of the Reich and of National Spain

2833
03:08:01,559 --> 03:08:06,520
met UH before Hiller got his audience with the ten

2834
03:08:09,479 --> 03:08:13,559
on October twenty third, ninety forty. It was the h

2835
03:08:13,920 --> 03:08:17,920
in the frontier town of Hindai, Hindi, France. I'm sure

2836
03:08:17,959 --> 03:08:26,959
I'm butchering the pronunciation. Hitler was president, obviously, Franco was president,

2837
03:08:28,040 --> 03:08:31,120
so is von Ribintrov, and so is Toronto. Sooner. Sooner

2838
03:08:31,239 --> 03:08:35,799
was the newly appointed foreign minister who was surrounding Soonior.

2839
03:08:36,319 --> 03:08:42,399
He was Franko's brother in law, but more importantly, he

2840
03:08:42,520 --> 03:08:46,159
was president of the traditional of the quote traditionalist Spanish

2841
03:08:46,239 --> 03:08:49,479
felanx and of the councils of the National Syndicalist Offensive.

2842
03:08:51,719 --> 03:08:55,280
What that was is that was the that was the

2843
03:08:55,319 --> 03:08:59,079
only legal party in Spain, and it was it had

2844
03:08:59,079 --> 03:09:02,040
come about by merging of the Palange and the Integralist

2845
03:09:02,079 --> 03:09:11,200
Catholic Traditionalist Union. Okay, part of the kind of optics

2846
03:09:11,239 --> 03:09:14,360
the Franco regime where they claim to both represent the

2847
03:09:14,479 --> 03:09:18,000
Church and represent the Falanges, which was a fiction if

2848
03:09:18,000 --> 03:09:20,479
anybody knows the history of these Tennessees, and we'll get

2849
03:09:20,520 --> 03:09:25,280
into that next episode. And there was a revolt of

2850
03:09:25,319 --> 03:09:33,200
the Phalange against uh against Franco's dictatorship, and that ultimately

2851
03:09:33,559 --> 03:09:37,079
the kind of the kind of enduring ripples of that

2852
03:09:37,159 --> 03:09:41,399
ultimately led to Snare's dismissal because Snaire actually was a

2853
03:09:41,440 --> 03:09:46,000
dedicated Falangist, you know, and had he not been related

2854
03:09:46,200 --> 03:09:48,719
to the Cuddillo, he would not have found himself in

2855
03:09:48,760 --> 03:09:53,399
this role. There's a cruel irony here too, because the

2856
03:09:53,399 --> 03:09:56,879
Acabam Ribbon shrow Up and surrounding Snare came to quite

2857
03:09:56,959 --> 03:10:02,760
literally hate one another, and they'd had quite a lot

2858
03:10:02,799 --> 03:10:07,879
of contact during the Spanish Civil War and beyond and

2859
03:10:08,000 --> 03:10:10,760
Ribbin Trump was beside himself and soon Era was appointed

2860
03:10:10,799 --> 03:10:18,920
Foreign Minister, and Ribin Trump was uh the anniversary of

2861
03:10:18,959 --> 03:10:21,440
his death, I think it was last year when the

2862
03:10:21,479 --> 03:10:23,920
university was death rolled around. I remember talking on Twitter

2863
03:10:23,959 --> 03:10:27,399
and in some other on some other platforms with people

2864
03:10:28,719 --> 03:10:30,799
they were asking me what my take on Ribbin Troup was.

2865
03:10:31,559 --> 03:10:34,559
There were some incredible diplomatic coups that Ribbon Troff pulled off,

2866
03:10:34,799 --> 03:10:39,479
and he had some remarkable insights in at key junctures.

2867
03:10:40,159 --> 03:10:41,319
But at the end of the day, he was an

2868
03:10:41,360 --> 03:10:50,479
international businessman, okay, in business a diplomats and and uh,

2869
03:10:51,440 --> 03:10:54,600
no matter what, the most prestige posting before he became

2870
03:10:54,600 --> 03:10:57,319
the Foreign Minister was his ambassador of the United Kingdom.

2871
03:10:57,520 --> 03:11:02,840
And no matter who had been in that role, you know,

2872
03:11:02,879 --> 03:11:05,920
he would he wouldn't He wouldn't have made any any headway, okay,

2873
03:11:05,959 --> 03:11:09,479
because you know, for reasons that should be obvious to anybody,

2874
03:11:09,520 --> 03:11:14,200
but that we covered extensively in our earlier series. But

2875
03:11:17,760 --> 03:11:21,040
Raymond Troup was incapable of of of coming to terms

2876
03:11:21,040 --> 03:11:25,079
with people who he developed a relationship characterized a personal

2877
03:11:25,120 --> 03:11:28,319
animus opposite. And this was the case of soon Air

2878
03:11:28,399 --> 03:11:30,120
and like you know, and Like I said, Sooner, not

2879
03:11:30,159 --> 03:11:35,680
only was he Uh a dedicated philangist, he was he

2880
03:11:35,719 --> 03:11:43,600
was he was incredibly pro Axis. The previous September, the

2881
03:11:43,719 --> 03:11:49,760
month prior UH Sooner visited Berlin, he'd sought out Ribin

2882
03:11:49,799 --> 03:11:54,639
Troup at the Foreign Ministry to discuss how Spain could

2883
03:11:54,799 --> 03:11:57,239
enter the war on the Axis side. Like now, mind

2884
03:11:57,280 --> 03:12:00,440
you like, Sooner knew that Franco was dragging his feet.

2885
03:12:01,760 --> 03:12:03,719
He knew what Hitler's demands were, and he knew that

2886
03:12:03,760 --> 03:12:08,719
those demands were sound and strategic as well as political terms.

2887
03:12:09,200 --> 03:12:13,399
He also knew that, you know, part of Franco's strategy,

2888
03:12:13,559 --> 03:12:16,559
it would be the issue demands that could would would

2889
03:12:16,639 --> 03:12:21,079
not reasonably be met either because you know, realistically, you know,

2890
03:12:21,159 --> 03:12:24,399
forces and being weren't there we're you know, and and

2891
03:12:24,399 --> 03:12:32,680
and those that were like that, you know, food stuffs, petroleum, weapons, aircraft,

2892
03:12:32,920 --> 03:12:37,120
you know that which was in being you know, Berlin

2893
03:12:37,159 --> 03:12:40,239
would never part with because it was an unconstable demand.

2894
03:12:40,799 --> 03:12:43,799
But soon they're honestly visited the Foreign Ministry in good

2895
03:12:43,840 --> 03:12:49,280
faith to try and realize terms by which uh, you know,

2896
03:12:50,479 --> 03:12:52,639
Franco would be painted into a corner. In my belief,

2897
03:12:52,760 --> 03:12:56,280
in my opinion, you know such that you know, the uh,

2898
03:12:57,000 --> 03:13:00,879
the Reich would contribute, you know, everything that possibly could

2899
03:13:01,959 --> 03:13:07,280
to facilitate Spain's entry into the war. So I mean

2900
03:13:07,360 --> 03:13:10,200
soon Air and Ribbon Trump wanted the same things and

2901
03:13:10,399 --> 03:13:16,520
uh they uh they but they couldn't they, you know

2902
03:13:16,600 --> 03:13:21,280
that they couldn't overcome this this kind of personal animus

2903
03:13:21,319 --> 03:13:24,559
what uh Ribbon Trump reported and Raybon Troup was something

2904
03:13:24,600 --> 03:13:29,079
of a haughty two ton of uh you know, a

2905
03:13:29,159 --> 03:13:34,360
caricatures sort And again that's another reason I think he

2906
03:13:34,360 --> 03:13:35,879
should not have been in the role that he was.

2907
03:13:35,920 --> 03:13:44,079
But soon There uh said that, you know, Caudillo demands

2908
03:13:44,079 --> 03:13:46,879
you know, all of French, Morocco and Algeria, you know,

2909
03:13:46,959 --> 03:13:50,639
for Laban's wrong. But this could probably be finesse if

2910
03:13:50,799 --> 03:13:55,600
you know he was offered Portugal because geographically speaking, in

2911
03:13:55,680 --> 03:13:59,159
Soonor's words, Portugal has no right to exist quote and

2912
03:13:59,200 --> 03:14:01,959
this apparently raged Ribbon Throp. You know, like, who the

2913
03:14:02,000 --> 03:14:04,200
hell is this Spandard think he is? You know, Spain

2914
03:14:04,280 --> 03:14:07,120
is a is a ship country. It's you know, he's

2915
03:14:07,360 --> 03:14:09,920
talking like he's you know, he's talking to me like

2916
03:14:09,920 --> 03:14:13,719
we're peers. And you can almost see like if you

2917
03:14:13,760 --> 03:14:17,319
read about these personages like you almost you almost like

2918
03:14:17,440 --> 03:14:19,920
feel this like outraged ribbon trop But I mean again,

2919
03:14:19,959 --> 03:14:21,840
if you're a diplomat, you've got to stay cool no

2920
03:14:21,879 --> 03:14:26,600
matter what. But again, part of the tragedy of this

2921
03:14:26,760 --> 03:14:28,639
is that a man like soon Air Well, I think

2922
03:14:28,680 --> 03:14:30,200
it was a real hero in a lot of ways.

2923
03:14:30,719 --> 03:14:34,920
But you know this, uh, this kind of a you know,

2924
03:14:34,959 --> 03:14:38,360
this this kind of self important, pompous Latin guy, and uh,

2925
03:14:38,639 --> 03:14:41,319
this kind of you know, supremacist to time type like

2926
03:14:41,360 --> 03:14:43,319
people like that are gonna mix like oil and water,

2927
03:14:43,399 --> 03:14:49,399
you know. And you can just see just kind of

2928
03:14:49,399 --> 03:14:51,719
by like like the words jump off the page, and

2929
03:14:51,879 --> 03:14:55,040
when when you read of this meeting, how you know,

2930
03:14:55,200 --> 03:15:01,879
just like what a disaster it must must must have been. Additionally,

2931
03:15:01,879 --> 03:15:05,159
Srono wanted to he wanted he want to guarantees of

2932
03:15:05,639 --> 03:15:10,280
military and economic support, you know, uh immediately to like

2933
03:15:10,319 --> 03:15:14,360
you know, this wasn't he said he wanted to go

2934
03:15:14,399 --> 03:15:17,479
back to Madrid, you know, with with the concrete offer

2935
03:15:17,600 --> 03:15:23,159
of what you know, Hitler was willing to provide, you know,

2936
03:15:23,280 --> 03:15:25,680
kind of like down to the letter, you know, and uh,

2937
03:15:25,840 --> 03:15:29,280
this is not that's not the way that that's not

2938
03:15:29,399 --> 03:15:31,680
that's not the way diplomacy has done either you know

2939
03:15:32,000 --> 03:15:39,520
it's and uh this would be the cost again of

2940
03:15:38,360 --> 03:15:44,479
uh of you know, joining the war and specifically you know,

2941
03:15:44,840 --> 03:15:55,280
immediately planning for an operation. This trilter apparently Ymntroft hit

2942
03:15:55,319 --> 03:15:59,639
the roof and he said that he'd approached the Fear

2943
03:15:59,760 --> 03:16:06,399
and talk about maybe letting uh Spain maintained territorial rights

2944
03:16:06,440 --> 03:16:10,600
to uh one of the Canary Islands, but that's it,

2945
03:16:11,000 --> 03:16:13,280
you know. He said that Spain's never going to have

2946
03:16:13,360 --> 03:16:15,920
Morocco that you know, France is an essential ally and

2947
03:16:15,959 --> 03:16:22,840
you're not. You know, this is paraphrase, you know, and uh, finally,

2948
03:16:22,920 --> 03:16:26,200
Riven trop said that you know the aid you're gonna

2949
03:16:26,239 --> 03:16:30,159
get is you know, you're you're gonna become a dedicated

2950
03:16:30,440 --> 03:16:33,879
you know, destination from German manufacturers. You know, we're gonna

2951
03:16:33,879 --> 03:16:36,639
put your people to work, you know, as we see fit,

2952
03:16:36,799 --> 03:16:39,799
you know, to sustain in the war economy. But you know,

2953
03:16:40,399 --> 03:16:43,120
basically you're a coolie, you know, go back. He basically

2954
03:16:43,159 --> 03:16:47,120
told him, like, go get his fucking shinebos and you

2955
03:16:47,159 --> 03:16:50,639
know the uh he literally insulted him by you know,

2956
03:16:50,680 --> 03:16:53,079
not just portraying Spain as you know, like a future

2957
03:16:53,120 --> 03:16:55,840
satellite state, but as like a second rate one at

2958
03:16:55,840 --> 03:17:02,920
that as uh this came is apparently a great shock

2959
03:17:03,000 --> 03:17:06,399
to soon error because it uh. I mean again, like

2960
03:17:06,440 --> 03:17:10,319
these guys weren't rob and Troup had done business in

2961
03:17:10,360 --> 03:17:14,920
America and like actually up until you know, the the

2962
03:17:15,000 --> 03:17:18,319
evil World War one and uh and then subsequent he'd

2963
03:17:18,360 --> 03:17:22,799
spent a lot of time in Canada, So I mean

2964
03:17:22,799 --> 03:17:26,280
he was worldly, but uh like not neither of these

2965
03:17:26,319 --> 03:17:30,840
men should have been negotiating anything of uh of of

2966
03:17:30,840 --> 03:17:32,959
of of the nature that they were charged with, you know,

2967
03:17:33,079 --> 03:17:40,680
like I Sigafreed Cash, I Uh, SIGRed Cash wasn't a diplomat,

2968
03:17:40,760 --> 03:17:45,200
but he he was slated to be the gall lighter

2969
03:17:45,280 --> 03:17:49,600
of the Moscow UH Commissariat, you know, had it come

2970
03:17:49,639 --> 03:17:56,600
to fruition, and he uh he was. He was the

2971
03:17:56,600 --> 03:18:01,879
military liaison uh to uh the independent State of Croatia.

2972
03:18:01,879 --> 03:18:03,440
I mean, I just think he's an interesting guy. But

2973
03:18:03,559 --> 03:18:07,879
I in in counterfactual terms, I was thinking about that,

2974
03:18:07,959 --> 03:18:11,559
like Sigarey Cash, like should have been the man negotiating

2975
03:18:11,760 --> 03:18:17,159
with Spain and uh it should have been a man

2976
03:18:17,239 --> 03:18:22,120
from the traditional uh, from the traditional aristocracy of the

2977
03:18:22,200 --> 03:18:27,399
church or the church like negotiating with with Cash. You know.

2978
03:18:27,440 --> 03:18:30,639
Again it's a. It's a it's it's a splendid example

2979
03:18:30,639 --> 03:18:33,399
of two men who basically agree on everything in terms

2980
03:18:33,399 --> 03:18:36,040
of like ideology and politics, who you know, could not

2981
03:18:36,280 --> 03:18:41,079
agree on like what day it was? It uh, And

2982
03:18:41,120 --> 03:18:45,879
it becomes Franco's private correspondence to soon error, you know,

2983
03:18:46,360 --> 03:18:50,600
and his telegrams to him, but specifically like his private letters.

2984
03:18:51,399 --> 03:18:54,680
So I mean, you know that these were intendingly for

2985
03:18:54,840 --> 03:19:00,159
Sator's eyes. He was uh, he was a Frank was

2986
03:19:00,200 --> 03:19:03,079
a fusively praising Hitler as a wise man, you know

2987
03:19:03,079 --> 03:19:05,639
and like a great man. And you know he was

2988
03:19:05,680 --> 03:19:08,479
dismissing Ribbon trow up as you know Ri Ribond Trump

2989
03:19:08,600 --> 03:19:11,879
is you know, he's a fool. He he's uh, he

2990
03:19:11,879 --> 03:19:14,159
heels to appreciate you know, what we can offer the

2991
03:19:14,239 --> 03:19:17,360
axis and you know these kinds of things, you know.

2992
03:19:17,399 --> 03:19:20,159
So again it's and if it's some like go to

2993
03:19:20,200 --> 03:19:22,799
show you how essential to I mean, if you're if

2994
03:19:22,799 --> 03:19:24,879
you're ahead of state, particularly if you're a world ord

2995
03:19:24,879 --> 03:19:28,040
as Hitler was by this point, you've got to be insulated.

2996
03:19:28,879 --> 03:19:31,959
I mean not just for you know, reasons of literal

2997
03:19:31,959 --> 03:19:36,319
physical security, but you know, because every anybody and everybody

2998
03:19:36,399 --> 03:19:37,879
is going to be you know, trying to sway your

2999
03:19:37,920 --> 03:19:40,159
opinion and make demands on you and things. I mean,

3000
03:19:40,200 --> 03:19:43,479
you just you know, you basically have to communicate through liaison.

3001
03:19:43,520 --> 03:19:46,040
But it goes to show you, like how how important

3002
03:19:46,040 --> 03:19:48,079
it is that the man in that role or in

3003
03:19:48,120 --> 03:19:53,559
those roles you know, in in discreete capacities, you know,

3004
03:19:53,680 --> 03:19:57,760
really really have to you know, be be able to

3005
03:19:57,799 --> 03:19:59,840
check their ego at the door. You know, if there's

3006
03:20:00,000 --> 03:20:02,719
there's no reason why like this, this could not have

3007
03:20:03,479 --> 03:20:10,479
developed into a real you know, a real strategic uh

3008
03:20:10,680 --> 03:20:14,879
you know, alliance, you know, in operational terms, I mean

3009
03:20:15,399 --> 03:20:24,319
uh he uh, even after when a protege as soon

3010
03:20:24,360 --> 03:20:34,159
are a guy named Pedro Gamero del Castill in nineteen

3011
03:20:34,200 --> 03:20:36,840
forty one January nineteen forty one, he reached out to

3012
03:20:37,200 --> 03:20:40,319
the press secretary of the German embassy in Spain, Hans Lasar,

3013
03:20:42,399 --> 03:20:45,760
and he he begged him basically, he's like, look, you know,

3014
03:20:47,959 --> 03:20:52,479
tell Berlin that a Serrano soonnor government in other words,

3015
03:20:52,520 --> 03:20:56,319
like Franco could be sidelined or killed. You know, a

3016
03:20:56,360 --> 03:20:59,840
Serrano sonir government, you know, it was soon are at

3017
03:20:59,879 --> 03:21:02,280
the helm and live with the Cardillo would commit absolutely

3018
03:21:02,360 --> 03:21:08,239
the access powers, you know, and This was incredibly risky,

3019
03:21:08,559 --> 03:21:12,200
you know that he was that he was talking about

3020
03:21:12,200 --> 03:21:16,399
these things in a basically above board capacity with a

3021
03:21:16,479 --> 03:21:19,680
German diplomatic representative. But I mean it goes to show

3022
03:21:19,719 --> 03:21:21,639
you Spain was a house divided. And it goes to

3023
03:21:21,680 --> 03:21:24,760
show you too how you know that the true Falange

3024
03:21:24,879 --> 03:21:27,520
like pro access element in Spain, like we're holding out

3025
03:21:27,600 --> 03:21:32,680
hope still that you know, Spain would join the access

3026
03:21:32,760 --> 03:21:36,920
as a you know, as a as a full partner.

3027
03:21:40,000 --> 03:21:47,040
It Uh, it's unclear whether Wizarre ever reached Hitler or

3028
03:21:47,079 --> 03:21:50,479
reached like the right Chancery and if he did like

3029
03:21:50,520 --> 03:21:56,319
what he said when it was said to Hitler when

3030
03:21:56,360 --> 03:22:06,559
it was like not the not by not by Castillo bout,

3031
03:22:06,639 --> 03:22:12,079
Hitler said, Uh. To Walter Hewle later on was uh,

3032
03:22:12,399 --> 03:22:15,559
he said that you know, soon air and not you know,

3033
03:22:16,719 --> 03:22:21,399
trying harder and doing whatever he could dissuay the Cordillo

3034
03:22:21,719 --> 03:22:24,760
was quote the great bigger of the new Spain and uh,

3035
03:22:26,120 --> 03:22:28,520
you know Hitler, the man always who always took the

3036
03:22:28,600 --> 03:22:32,799
long view. Whatever else he canna say about him, you know,

3037
03:22:32,879 --> 03:22:37,680
he realized more than anybody that you know, Spain's fortunes

3038
03:22:37,719 --> 03:22:43,719
were inextricably tethered to Germany's and if the axis went down,

3039
03:22:44,639 --> 03:22:46,600
that that was the end of Spain. You know, it

3040
03:22:46,879 --> 03:22:49,760
didn't matter that Franco was able to create a little

3041
03:22:49,840 --> 03:22:56,239
like you know, Garrison Uh uh, you know Disneyland, like

3042
03:22:56,360 --> 03:23:00,760
fascist Disneyland for thirty years subsequent that, you know, his

3043
03:23:00,879 --> 03:23:03,319
lasting legacy, that that of Frankoin, I mean is amounts

3044
03:23:03,360 --> 03:23:14,159
to exactly zero. Soon There uh and uh Castile proposed

3045
03:23:14,200 --> 03:23:18,600
they were the ones who proposed the Blue Division, you know,

3046
03:23:18,680 --> 03:23:24,440
after the honest of hostilities with the Soviet Union on

3047
03:23:24,600 --> 03:23:28,879
June twenty second, ninety forty one. And uh, you know

3048
03:23:28,920 --> 03:23:33,879
it's clear that uh, it's it's clear. Soon There realized

3049
03:23:33,879 --> 03:23:36,799
the opportunity that he'd missed or or or was cossing

3050
03:23:36,879 --> 03:23:45,639
his own failure. Two days after Barbarossa in June twenty there,

3051
03:23:45,760 --> 03:23:49,000
twenty four. I've seen it cited, as I've seen both

3052
03:23:49,040 --> 03:23:53,120
citations of the date. He Uh, he delivered a famous

3053
03:23:53,200 --> 03:23:59,440
uh kind of stump speech, uh, from the balcony of

3054
03:23:59,479 --> 03:24:05,520
what had been for largest party headquarters, called Russia is

3055
03:24:05,600 --> 03:24:09,440
capabal forgive me portuing Spanish, I don't speak Spanish at all,

3056
03:24:09,760 --> 03:24:16,040
but translates as Russia is guilty and it's essentially you know, uh,

3057
03:24:16,120 --> 03:24:19,559
bellicos epologia for you know, why why why Spain needs

3058
03:24:19,600 --> 03:24:21,680
to join you know, the war effort, where the flange

3059
03:24:21,719 --> 03:24:23,280
need to join the war effort, you know, like all

3060
03:24:23,360 --> 03:24:29,120
all true patriots need to slay that you deal Bolshevic beast,

3061
03:24:29,280 --> 03:24:31,760
you know. So he was, uh, he was. He was

3062
03:24:31,840 --> 03:24:36,559
like like many people, you know, like many great men.

3063
03:24:36,719 --> 03:24:39,239
You know, he was complicated. And again that's part of

3064
03:24:39,280 --> 03:24:43,760
the tragedy is that Serrano was basically a heroic type

3065
03:24:44,920 --> 03:24:47,600
and a great patriot, and you know, kind of circumstances

3066
03:24:47,600 --> 03:24:52,719
intervened to uh prevent him from realizing you know, what

3067
03:24:54,079 --> 03:24:56,559
he wanted to do. H accomplished for the sake of

3068
03:24:56,600 --> 03:25:01,280
Spain and you know, the national Socialist cause and everything else.

3069
03:25:03,600 --> 03:25:07,079
But back to forgive that, tangent I had to kind

3070
03:25:07,079 --> 03:25:10,559
of flesh out who soon there was, to make clear

3071
03:25:10,719 --> 03:25:13,559
like what the stakes were of the of the summit

3072
03:25:14,120 --> 03:25:18,680
between Hitler and Franco, but also you know, to kind

3073
03:25:18,680 --> 03:25:22,680
of understand, you know, how the personage is directly engaged,

3074
03:25:22,799 --> 03:25:31,280
you know, determine the outcome of this negotiation. The basic

3075
03:25:31,360 --> 03:25:38,079
object was to resolve you know, outstanding disagreements uh over

3076
03:25:38,120 --> 03:25:40,879
the over over conditions for Spain to join the Access

3077
03:25:40,920 --> 03:25:46,360
Powers in their war against Hi.

3078
03:25:49,680 --> 03:25:56,239
Speaker 1: Okay, Jimmy a favor you cut out. You cut out

3079
03:25:56,319 --> 03:26:00,559
there when you when you first started, you were going

3080
03:26:00,600 --> 03:26:03,360
to say right now, you cut out like like five

3081
03:26:03,399 --> 03:26:05,280
seconds ago. Can you can you restart that?

3082
03:26:06,000 --> 03:26:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, No, it's the UH to bring it back

3083
03:26:09,479 --> 03:26:14,719
to the summit between you know, Hitler and Franco at

3084
03:26:14,760 --> 03:26:20,239
the object of that meeting it was to resolve, you know,

3085
03:26:20,280 --> 03:26:24,079
the outstanding disagreements over over what conditions had to be

3086
03:26:24,159 --> 03:26:27,479
met for Spain to join the Axis Powers in the

3087
03:26:27,520 --> 03:26:31,520
war against the British Empire. Okay, because obviously, you know,

3088
03:26:32,120 --> 03:26:37,760
this is October nineteen forty, the German Reich in the

3089
03:26:37,760 --> 03:26:42,719
Soviet Union or not yet at war. Okay, France has

3090
03:26:42,760 --> 03:26:46,959
been soundly defeated. The British were defeated at you know two.

3091
03:26:47,040 --> 03:26:49,719
I mean, but you know, on to the war at

3092
03:26:49,719 --> 03:26:55,239
all costs crusade. You know, they're refusing to negotiate, and uh,

3093
03:26:56,079 --> 03:26:58,559
Hitler doesn't want to go through a sea lion. I

3094
03:26:58,600 --> 03:27:01,239
think Sea Lion was always just fertig ruse. But that's

3095
03:27:01,280 --> 03:27:06,520
another question. But the nail in the coffin of the

3096
03:27:06,520 --> 03:27:09,879
British Empire, you know, would be the seeear of Gibraltar.

3097
03:27:10,079 --> 03:27:12,079
You know, the Royal Navy would then be shut out

3098
03:27:12,079 --> 03:27:19,319
of the Mediterranean. They'd lose Africa, you know, they'd they'd

3099
03:27:19,360 --> 03:27:23,520
be they they'd be they'd be a garrison, uh state

3100
03:27:24,520 --> 03:27:28,920
on their home islands, you know, and the U boat

3101
03:27:28,920 --> 03:27:35,879
fleet could do the rest. Really Okay, the meeting endured

3102
03:27:36,040 --> 03:27:43,000
for seven hours. Uh. The Spanish wouldn't waiver, and there rather,

3103
03:27:43,639 --> 03:27:50,000
Franco wouldn't waiver and uh demands that Hitler described as extortionate.

3104
03:27:51,000 --> 03:27:55,239
His demands were. Franco's demands were the handing over of

3105
03:27:55,280 --> 03:28:00,319
Gibraltar to Spain once the British were defeated. Uh this,

3106
03:28:00,559 --> 03:28:03,079
you know, the seating of French Morocco and part of

3107
03:28:03,079 --> 03:28:09,440
French Algeria to Spain. The attachment of French Cameroon to

3108
03:28:09,520 --> 03:28:12,799
the Spanish colony of Guinea. So basically, you know, French

3109
03:28:12,799 --> 03:28:22,280
Africa becomes Spanish Afriga Okay, and finally German supplies of food, petrol,

3110
03:28:22,680 --> 03:28:27,239
arms and ammunition uh as needed, you know, to relieve

3111
03:28:27,239 --> 03:28:31,520
the critical economic and military situation to your point, faced

3112
03:28:31,559 --> 03:28:36,959
by Spain after the Civil War. And you know, and

3113
03:28:37,079 --> 03:28:42,079
subsequently as needed, you know, for long term development. Now,

3114
03:28:45,440 --> 03:28:49,479
Hitler couldn't disturb relations with with with France, Okay. I mean,

3115
03:28:49,520 --> 03:28:53,280
as we just talked about, that was the key that

3116
03:28:53,360 --> 03:28:58,760
was really the key to you know, victory in the West. Okay,

3117
03:29:00,200 --> 03:29:03,959
the key that the key to n SIG was the

3118
03:29:03,959 --> 03:29:09,760
defeat of the Soviet Union. But you know, the Barbarossa

3119
03:29:09,840 --> 03:29:14,360
hasn't happened yet, and ideally, you know, if the war

3120
03:29:14,399 --> 03:29:17,000
in the West can be won, uh first, I mean

3121
03:29:17,000 --> 03:29:21,280
that's obviously ideal, even if this was always a secondary

3122
03:29:21,319 --> 03:29:24,479
theater and you know, a war that the Germans did

3123
03:29:24,520 --> 03:29:28,680
not want to fight. These are the UK and you know,

3124
03:29:29,680 --> 03:29:34,760
the Mediterranean and Northern Africa. But the strategic landscape is

3125
03:29:34,760 --> 03:29:42,200
what it is, Okay, something that's important that doesn't nullify uh,

3126
03:29:42,479 --> 03:29:46,440
you know RHS Stofle's claim, and I mean Hitler's notion,

3127
03:29:47,799 --> 03:29:50,520
I mean the notion of Hitler himself that you know,

3128
03:29:50,600 --> 03:29:54,840
the like final like final victory is conquering is is

3129
03:29:54,840 --> 03:29:58,959
when Moscow falls. Okay, But I just wanted to reiterate

3130
03:29:59,040 --> 03:30:09,000
that for Claire. But uh, the only way that this uh,

3131
03:30:09,399 --> 03:30:14,280
the only way that this uh that this alliance, uh

3132
03:30:14,399 --> 03:30:18,280
that this Mediterranean alliance can work, is uh like like

3133
03:30:18,360 --> 03:30:23,520
Frances the Lynchkin. Okay, for reasons where we discussed Franco

3134
03:30:23,600 --> 03:30:26,479
is making that impossible for you know, for for France

3135
03:30:26,520 --> 03:30:29,479
to come to terms based on what he is demanding.

3136
03:30:33,239 --> 03:30:35,879
And Hillar was beside himself. But also he just didn't

3137
03:30:36,559 --> 03:30:40,399
he he didn't understand the abject uh you know, kind

3138
03:30:40,440 --> 03:30:46,879
of stubbornness. I mean he he view it's never deliver,

3139
03:30:48,079 --> 03:30:51,520
really sabotage the proceedings, and I believe that's true. Uh

3140
03:30:52,040 --> 03:30:54,319
said in Mussolini that he would rather have three or

3141
03:30:54,319 --> 03:30:57,360
four teeth extracted than go through that again, that being

3142
03:30:57,440 --> 03:31:03,959
negotiation or attempted negotiation with Franco soon Air, who was

3143
03:31:04,000 --> 03:31:08,559
again he was uh not habituated to being a diplomat

3144
03:31:08,920 --> 03:31:12,319
and uh he was apparently something of a boisterous, you know,

3145
03:31:12,360 --> 03:31:15,600
an impassionate person and a military man as as well

3146
03:31:15,639 --> 03:31:22,479
as uh, you know, a revolutionary type. He uh he

3147
03:31:22,559 --> 03:31:27,040
continually interrupted and in a way that apparently Hitler viewed

3148
03:31:27,040 --> 03:31:30,000
as totally tactless and stiff like that meane Hitler very

3149
03:31:30,040 --> 03:31:34,319
angry as a kind of as a kind of would

3150
03:31:34,360 --> 03:31:37,479
any sort of like old world Habsburg German. But Hitler

3151
03:31:37,639 --> 03:31:42,600
especially it was. You know, it's basically like, look, if

3152
03:31:42,600 --> 03:31:45,120
you're a definitely representative, even if you're a foreign minister,

3153
03:31:46,000 --> 03:31:48,799
you know when heads a state or talking, you don't

3154
03:31:48,799 --> 03:31:51,680
see anything, you know, I mean so it's just every

3155
03:31:51,879 --> 03:31:58,000
every conceivable sort of aspect of this of this affair

3156
03:31:58,360 --> 03:32:01,079
just came uh you know, a yasco you know, a

3157
03:32:01,319 --> 03:32:09,920
a literal comedy of errors. But uh, Hitler kept at

3158
03:32:09,959 --> 03:32:15,200
it even uh even and even even through you know,

3159
03:32:15,239 --> 03:32:23,440
when dinner was served and even afterwards, and uh it

3160
03:32:23,680 --> 03:32:26,360
uh you know it it came to nothing. And that was.

3161
03:32:26,360 --> 03:32:29,920
That was the last summit. There was the last summer

3162
03:32:29,920 --> 03:32:32,520
between Franco and UH and the fere and really like

3163
03:32:32,520 --> 03:32:37,280
any any official representatives of of of their respective office,

3164
03:32:37,879 --> 03:32:42,399
you know, it's the the Blue Division deployed, you know,

3165
03:32:44,520 --> 03:32:48,399
to the Eastern Front. You know, they fought valiantly, particularly

3166
03:32:48,399 --> 03:32:53,479
at Leningrad. But I mean that, uh, that was that.

3167
03:32:55,040 --> 03:32:58,239
You know, there was no Franco is no nearer uh

3168
03:32:58,719 --> 03:33:03,239
you know, joining the axis than he had been at

3169
03:33:04,399 --> 03:33:09,920
you know prior to the meeting soon Air. You know,

3170
03:33:09,959 --> 03:33:15,280
if anything, he probably sabotaged the proceedings in some small

3171
03:33:15,319 --> 03:33:19,280
way or possibly even a major way by his you know,

3172
03:33:19,360 --> 03:33:24,520
kind of uncouth conduct, however well intentioned it might have been,

3173
03:33:28,000 --> 03:33:32,799
you know, and it was Uh. Hitler went on uh

3174
03:33:33,559 --> 03:33:44,520
to meet Patent on the twenty fourth October. He readed

3175
03:33:44,600 --> 03:33:52,000
pretend as the victory of Verdune, you know, saluted him,

3176
03:33:53,040 --> 03:33:56,159
you know again, like treating him like, you know, with

3177
03:33:56,319 --> 03:33:57,879
all not just with all the honors do a field

3178
03:33:57,920 --> 03:34:01,000
marshal a little bit, you know, as also as the

3179
03:34:01,000 --> 03:34:07,559
president of France, you know it uh, you know, but

3180
03:34:07,600 --> 03:34:09,399
he had nothing he had you know, he had nothing

3181
03:34:09,399 --> 03:34:13,000
to offer, you know. In the French, the patience perspective was,

3182
03:34:13,040 --> 03:34:15,920
you know, we're already at war with the UK, Like

3183
03:34:15,920 --> 03:34:21,600
what more do you want from us? You know, And

3184
03:34:21,639 --> 03:34:23,760
I mean, for the record, you know that continued throughout

3185
03:34:23,799 --> 03:34:25,719
the war. You know, I don't need to remind people,

3186
03:34:26,079 --> 03:34:31,840
you know who another history that the final defenders of

3187
03:34:31,840 --> 03:34:35,239
of uh, the CHS Thug and the fear of Bunker

3188
03:34:35,319 --> 03:34:37,520
were uh, you know, the French off and SS you know,

3189
03:34:37,719 --> 03:34:44,959
Charlot Meine. You know, but it was it was a

3190
03:34:46,040 --> 03:34:48,799
you know, he just reiterated, you know containing you know,

3191
03:34:48,920 --> 03:34:52,200
it's the France can only afford the role of non

3192
03:34:52,239 --> 03:34:55,639
belligerent and official capacities, you know, over the time being,

3193
03:34:55,719 --> 03:34:59,600
you know, otherwise otherwise you know, and defend as you

3194
03:34:59,600 --> 03:35:02,120
know what we can in Africa, you know, from the

3195
03:35:02,159 --> 03:35:05,000
common enemy. But you know, beyond that, there's there's there's

3196
03:35:05,000 --> 03:35:08,079
nothing to be done unless you know, Spain's willing to

3197
03:35:08,120 --> 03:35:09,200
come to terms.

3198
03:35:09,719 --> 03:35:12,040
Speaker 1: And uh, that.

3199
03:35:14,159 --> 03:35:17,479
Speaker 2: Was that kind of the final kind of the final

3200
03:35:17,600 --> 03:35:24,479
chapter was in the final they're the nailing the coffin. Rather.

3201
03:35:26,440 --> 03:35:31,040
A month subsequent, November twenty eighth, nineteen forty, Ribbon Troup's

3202
03:35:31,040 --> 03:35:36,440
ambassador in Berlin, the foreign the German ambassador to to Madrid,

3203
03:35:36,520 --> 03:35:45,879
to Spain in Madrid Eperlin, he relayed that Frank was

3204
03:35:45,920 --> 03:35:51,399
now willing to proceed with East of Pursy preparations for

3205
03:35:51,520 --> 03:35:54,840
Spain's proposed entry into the war if you know Hitler

3206
03:35:54,920 --> 03:35:57,360
was willing to you know, if Hitler was willing to

3207
03:35:57,399 --> 03:35:59,159
now come to terms, you know, in some way that

3208
03:35:59,520 --> 03:36:05,879
you know, both men could live with. Hitler took this

3209
03:36:05,959 --> 03:36:10,680
to mean that this meant that Franco was willing to

3210
03:36:10,760 --> 03:36:16,000
enter the war immediately, you know, pending uh, the satisfaction

3211
03:36:16,040 --> 03:36:21,000
and conditions precedent. On December fourth, he sent Canarist to

3212
03:36:21,120 --> 03:36:33,319
Franco with a personal letter proposing that German troops formally

3213
03:36:33,440 --> 03:36:39,239
enter Spain and you know, prepare uh to assault Gibraltar,

3214
03:36:43,399 --> 03:36:46,479
which six was six hundred miles from the frontier. Okay,

3215
03:36:46,520 --> 03:36:49,440
so we're talking. You're talking about a real deployment across

3216
03:36:51,120 --> 03:36:54,920
across you know, the Spanish heartland, which is no small thing.

3217
03:36:54,959 --> 03:37:00,159
But again it I mean, considering, considering, you know, the

3218
03:37:00,200 --> 03:37:03,239
course of negotiations, this would not this was not an

3219
03:37:03,280 --> 03:37:09,079
outlandish request. And let's forget that. You know, German forces

3220
03:37:09,079 --> 03:37:12,440
spent three years fighting, you know, on Spanish soil to

3221
03:37:12,920 --> 03:37:17,159
you know, guarantee the existence of Franco and his people,

3222
03:37:17,479 --> 03:37:24,319
you know, and subsequently the government that they now you know,

3223
03:37:24,360 --> 03:37:30,040
they now they now enjoyed in Madrid. So this, uh, this,

3224
03:37:30,040 --> 03:37:34,440
this was perfectly well placed in customary you know terms

3225
03:37:34,440 --> 03:37:36,440
as well as you know, the commonly accepted sort of

3226
03:37:38,280 --> 03:37:47,440
rights and privileges of of allies. You know. Franco afforded

3227
03:37:47,520 --> 03:37:51,360
Canarius along audience on December seventh, nineteen forty as an

3228
03:37:51,360 --> 03:37:56,079
auspicious day. Auspicious day, you know, one year prior to

3229
03:37:56,479 --> 03:38:04,159
Harbor Pearl Harbor exactly. Franco said to Canaris that for

3230
03:38:04,280 --> 03:38:08,120
economic reasons relating to you know, the terrible cost of

3231
03:38:08,239 --> 03:38:14,200
the Civil War. Spain could not be ready to assault

3232
03:38:14,200 --> 03:38:17,479
the UK by January tenth. Spain could only and Spain

3233
03:38:17,479 --> 03:38:20,280
could only join the war. Furthermore, if Britain was on

3234
03:38:20,319 --> 03:38:23,280
the on the brink of collapse, you know, any kind

3235
03:38:23,319 --> 03:38:26,959
of attrition contest, you know, Spain just could not commit

3236
03:38:27,040 --> 03:38:32,239
to that, which again was just you know, uh, it

3237
03:38:32,280 --> 03:38:34,760
was it was. It was, it was, it was, It

3238
03:38:34,840 --> 03:38:38,159
was just. It was just. Frank was favorite method once

3239
03:38:38,200 --> 03:38:42,440
again of finding a way to to you know, to

3240
03:38:42,559 --> 03:38:48,200
not to not commit to the alliance while uh wrong

3241
03:38:48,239 --> 03:38:52,520
footing his enemy and in some in some way how

3242
03:38:52,559 --> 03:39:02,440
we're transparent, that might have been it. Uh. Hitler's rebuttal

3243
03:39:02,799 --> 03:39:07,360
response uh to the Canaris meeting was, uh, you know,

3244
03:39:07,559 --> 03:39:14,959
just again you know too, to reiterate, uh, you know,

3245
03:39:15,120 --> 03:39:22,319
the that Gibraltar was essential that you know, unless uh,

3246
03:39:23,120 --> 03:39:27,159
unless the United Tignam was deprived of its access to

3247
03:39:27,159 --> 03:39:32,840
the Mediterranean, you know it, Uh, it would soon prevail

3248
03:39:32,879 --> 03:39:39,120
in North Africa. Hitler had no illusions about that, and

3249
03:39:39,360 --> 03:39:43,280
ultimately that would be the end of Spain. And you know,

3250
03:39:43,639 --> 03:39:47,079
he reminded him too that without the help of you know,

3251
03:39:47,840 --> 03:39:50,760
himself and Mussolini either would be no nationalist Spain today,

3252
03:39:50,920 --> 03:39:58,000
nor they be any Cardillo, you know, and he said

3253
03:39:58,000 --> 03:40:02,159
that Franco's vacillating, added to dude, was uh not befitting

3254
03:40:04,479 --> 03:40:09,200
a general officer, which seemed to stink deep because uh

3255
03:40:09,440 --> 03:40:15,280
Franco proceeded to angrily denounce not Hitler himself, but he

3256
03:40:15,280 --> 03:40:23,200
gained close. He told Canarious that he never vacillated. Uh

3257
03:40:23,360 --> 03:40:26,079
you know that he he he was always committed to

3258
03:40:26,079 --> 03:40:31,799
the cause. But that you know, Spain has been bled white,

3259
03:40:31,920 --> 03:40:36,079
you know, because the fight against Bolshevism, you know, occurred,

3260
03:40:36,200 --> 03:40:40,360
you know, on their territory first and foremost. And you know,

3261
03:40:40,479 --> 03:40:42,879
how dare you're going to question the sacrifice of Spanish

3262
03:40:42,879 --> 03:40:50,600
manhood and all. But the theory was right and Franco

3263
03:40:50,719 --> 03:40:56,079
was wrong. And I mean it's that simple. I and

3264
03:40:56,159 --> 03:41:00,399
again too, I mean aside from that, I mean, all

3265
03:41:00,559 --> 03:41:02,680
all this which is obvious kind of who's cobol and

3266
03:41:02,719 --> 03:41:11,879
who you know was responsible for the inability of you know,

3267
03:41:11,920 --> 03:41:14,760
any any kind of real concourd to emerge between uh,

3268
03:41:14,920 --> 03:41:20,799
you know, Germany, Italy, uh, Spain and France. It's clear that,

3269
03:41:21,239 --> 03:41:23,920
I mean, Franco was a unless one puts, you know,

3270
03:41:24,440 --> 03:41:31,079
self preservation above all other goods. It's it's obvious that

3271
03:41:31,120 --> 03:41:34,040
Franco was really kind of a pox on on the

3272
03:41:34,079 --> 03:41:41,799
house proverbial house of of of all patriotic forces. Then

3273
03:41:41,920 --> 03:41:48,319
UH so mobilized and engaged against uh, you know, the

3274
03:41:48,360 --> 03:41:55,360
Bolsheviks and UH and their allies in Britain. This the

3275
03:41:55,440 --> 03:41:58,760
situation was a complicated by Mussoli jumping the gun and

3276
03:42:00,079 --> 03:42:03,879
informing Hitler that he intended to assault Greece, which in

3277
03:42:03,920 --> 03:42:07,799
turn obviously would have given the UK a pretext to

3278
03:42:07,840 --> 03:42:12,520
occupy Crete and then you know, to bring UH their

3279
03:42:12,600 --> 03:42:17,479
strategic bombers within striking distance of the Mediterranean theater. I mean,

3280
03:42:17,520 --> 03:42:21,079
there was there was other things too that were rendering

3281
03:42:23,079 --> 03:42:28,600
this the timetable, uh you know, and that we're putting

3282
03:42:28,600 --> 03:42:33,799
pressure on you know, that the strategic timetable for any

3283
03:42:33,840 --> 03:42:37,920
sort of remedial action to be taken with respect to

3284
03:42:37,959 --> 03:42:40,079
Gibraltar or anywhere else the Mediterranean.

3285
03:42:40,280 --> 03:42:45,040
Speaker 1: So go ahead was in Hitler really at that point

3286
03:42:45,159 --> 03:42:49,200
had just asked Mussolini to make sure that the Suez

3287
03:42:49,280 --> 03:42:51,040
Canal was secure.

3288
03:42:50,680 --> 03:42:55,040
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And there was an ongoing there was an

3289
03:42:55,079 --> 03:42:58,879
ongoing uh you know, controversy as to you know, to

3290
03:42:59,000 --> 03:43:06,559
what degree the uh, the North African campaign should be

3291
03:43:07,879 --> 03:43:11,399
prioritized and to what degree then you know that this

3292
03:43:11,399 --> 03:43:16,239
this was before uh you know Rammel had uh had

3293
03:43:16,639 --> 03:43:22,000
had you know, struck these great victories out and you

3294
03:43:22,040 --> 03:43:27,840
know in uh in the North African theater. I mean

3295
03:43:27,879 --> 03:43:30,280
initially it was initially the avercorre deployed, you know, to

3296
03:43:30,360 --> 03:43:34,440
relieve you know, the Italians who were you know, failing

3297
03:43:34,440 --> 03:43:38,680
in every conceivable capacity and operational terms, you know, and

3298
03:43:38,719 --> 03:43:43,840
then later when uh, you know wrong. I think it's

3299
03:43:43,840 --> 03:43:49,280
somewhat over overly praised because he's a romantic figure and plus,

3300
03:43:49,319 --> 03:43:51,239
you know, people look at him as a good guy

3301
03:43:51,360 --> 03:43:55,360
because he he he was wrongfully implicated in the July

3302
03:43:55,719 --> 03:43:58,680
twenty plot, but he was nonetheless implicated and you know

3303
03:43:58,959 --> 03:44:02,879
the sad stoppo, you know, forcing to commit suicide. But

3304
03:44:02,959 --> 03:44:05,600
he it was uh, you know, it was it was

3305
03:44:05,680 --> 03:44:11,399
Rommel's you know, uh, you know, Prussian commitment to missionary

3306
03:44:11,399 --> 03:44:14,079
and attactics like Ritt Large, which kind of you know,

3307
03:44:14,559 --> 03:44:16,959
which kind of made North Africa into like a into

3308
03:44:17,000 --> 03:44:20,159
like a you know, a real battle theater because of

3309
03:44:20,200 --> 03:44:26,319
the fact is that he kept succeeding. But yeah, the

3310
03:44:26,319 --> 03:44:32,559
the Uh. That that was basically the Italian armies. That

3311
03:44:32,559 --> 03:44:36,079
that's what that that, that's what their responsibility was, you know,

3312
03:44:36,680 --> 03:44:42,399
vis a vis the UH, the Access Alliance and that UH.

3313
03:44:42,479 --> 03:44:45,079
And yeah, the Italian army in North Africa was problematic.

3314
03:44:45,399 --> 03:44:48,159
I think the Italians fought pretty heroically on the Eastern Front,

3315
03:44:51,239 --> 03:44:56,799
but the UH and in the Balkans there their mountain troops.

3316
03:44:57,079 --> 03:45:03,399
We were real game and real tough. But the the

3317
03:45:03,440 --> 03:45:06,760
Italian forces in Africa were not. They were not good,

3318
03:45:07,280 --> 03:45:09,079
and they were a liability in a lot of ways,

3319
03:45:09,120 --> 03:45:11,559
with some exceptions. I don't I don't want like Italian

3320
03:45:11,559 --> 03:45:13,559
people to get mad or something. You think I'm saying

3321
03:45:13,559 --> 03:45:16,840
something bad about them, I'm not. But the Italian army

3322
03:45:16,840 --> 03:45:17,520
had had.

3323
03:45:17,799 --> 03:45:19,319
Speaker 1: You've already pissed off the Spanish.

3324
03:45:19,360 --> 03:45:23,319
Speaker 2: So I mean, yeah, I don't wanna I don't know.

3325
03:45:23,600 --> 03:45:25,280
It's said, I don't want a whole form of Latin

3326
03:45:25,319 --> 03:45:30,200
people who are a man at me. But the UH,

3327
03:45:31,280 --> 03:45:39,000
you know, that was that was uh, that was that

3328
03:45:39,120 --> 03:45:42,159
and a lot of this too. I mentioned, Uh. I

3329
03:45:42,239 --> 03:45:43,719
mentioned Walter.

3330
03:45:49,520 --> 03:45:52,600
Speaker 1: Right as you said I mentioned and then you cut out.

3331
03:45:52,639 --> 03:45:53,360
So what did you say?

3332
03:45:53,600 --> 03:45:58,559
Speaker 2: I said, I mentioned Walter Walter? Hewell, a minute ago. Uh.

3333
03:45:59,319 --> 03:46:02,639
A lot of this testimony comes from hewell, you know,

3334
03:46:02,680 --> 03:46:05,239
and what he what he documented in his diaries and things,

3335
03:46:05,879 --> 03:46:11,719
and hewell was he was a career diplomat, and after

3336
03:46:11,799 --> 03:46:14,399
nineteen thirty three he became chief at the East Asian

3337
03:46:14,440 --> 03:46:17,559
disc of the Foreign Ministry, and then during the war

3338
03:46:18,120 --> 03:46:21,799
he became special liaison between the Foreign Ministry and the FEAR,

3339
03:46:22,319 --> 03:46:25,520
and he and Hitler became quite close. And Hewill was

3340
03:46:25,559 --> 03:46:29,120
an interesting guy, kind of like an unassuming guy, like

3341
03:46:29,239 --> 03:46:31,200
the kind of guy who is a great diplomat. Like

3342
03:46:31,280 --> 03:46:35,920
if if Hewell could have been negotiating with soon ere,

3343
03:46:36,360 --> 03:46:38,200
there would have been a very different outcome, I believe.

3344
03:46:38,280 --> 03:46:44,520
But my point is that uh, hewles Uh, he's a credit.

3345
03:46:44,559 --> 03:46:48,719
He is a credible source on this, and he he

3346
03:46:48,799 --> 03:46:52,239
really had no observing these things in his like private

3347
03:46:52,280 --> 03:46:54,840
diary where he was talking to himself, you know, like

3348
03:46:54,959 --> 03:46:58,159
here there really would be no reason why to finesse

3349
03:46:58,200 --> 03:47:00,959
these things. And frankly too, I mean again, I don't think,

3350
03:47:01,559 --> 03:47:03,520
I don't think. I don't think anybody really looks good

3351
03:47:03,600 --> 03:47:07,360
or reasonable in this MILEU except the Hitler himself, you know,

3352
03:47:07,399 --> 03:47:10,479
Like I'm sure that take makes people mad too. But

3353
03:47:10,520 --> 03:47:15,680
speaking within you know the bound irrationality of uh of

3354
03:47:17,319 --> 03:47:22,920
you know, the strategic planning, you know, based on the

3355
03:47:22,920 --> 03:47:30,719
conditions confronted you know, by all combatant states on the

3356
03:47:30,760 --> 03:47:34,079
acts of side as of October nineteen forty. And you

3357
03:47:34,120 --> 03:47:36,399
know this that this should not had developed the way

3358
03:47:36,399 --> 03:47:40,680
it did. But it goes to show you the human factor,

3359
03:47:41,600 --> 03:47:45,680
you know, and people and there you know, idiosyncrasies and

3360
03:47:45,719 --> 03:47:50,799
personality and and everything else. I mean it is, UH

3361
03:47:51,280 --> 03:47:55,840
is like like like sabotages the best laid planned in

3362
03:47:55,920 --> 03:47:59,399
nations more than any any army could, you know, much

3363
03:47:59,440 --> 03:48:02,760
of the time. And like that's not just some dumb cliche,

3364
03:48:03,159 --> 03:48:07,840
but that's uh, that's the story of UH. This is

3365
03:48:07,840 --> 03:48:11,079
the story of you know, the Cordillo and the Furor,

3366
03:48:11,239 --> 03:48:17,280
and you know the conspicuous absence of Spain and you

3367
03:48:17,319 --> 03:48:19,600
know on the on the battlefields of World War two

3368
03:48:19,680 --> 03:48:24,840
save for the Blue Division later the Blue Legion when

3369
03:48:24,879 --> 03:48:28,079
they were reconstituted, who were very who fought heroically again,

3370
03:48:28,879 --> 03:48:32,559
But you know, that's that's why. And that's all I got.

3371
03:48:32,799 --> 03:48:36,159
Speaker 1: Par too good, Let's do plugs and get out of here.

3372
03:48:37,000 --> 03:48:40,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I realized I haven't been plugging my website.

3373
03:48:40,879 --> 03:48:45,200
I do have a website now. It's number seven h

3374
03:48:45,360 --> 03:48:47,639
M A S seven seven seven dot com, which is

3375
03:48:47,719 --> 03:48:51,159
Thomas seven seven seven dot com. It's kind of like

3376
03:48:51,159 --> 03:48:52,920
a one stop not kind I mean, it's a one

3377
03:48:52,959 --> 03:48:57,719
stop place for all my content, okay, And I still

3378
03:48:57,719 --> 03:49:00,520
gotta like tweak some stuff that, like my Twitter feed

3379
03:49:00,600 --> 03:49:03,120
like shows up there in the timely manner, but pretty

3380
03:49:03,159 --> 03:49:05,520
much all like that video stuff I do like here

3381
03:49:05,559 --> 03:49:08,639
with Pete and other things, you know, shows up here,

3382
03:49:08,680 --> 03:49:11,280
like my podcast, you can like access it there, you know,

3383
03:49:11,399 --> 03:49:13,719
just like one off streams I appear on and stuff

3384
03:49:13,760 --> 03:49:17,559
like that, you can find it there. And I'm gonna

3385
03:49:17,559 --> 03:49:19,760
sucks it up and like fix some of the glitches.

3386
03:49:19,799 --> 03:49:21,479
And but I mean you can go here now and

3387
03:49:21,520 --> 03:49:23,879
it's like up and running, okay. But the stuff that

3388
03:49:23,920 --> 03:49:27,719
doesn't work particularly well yet, that's getting worked out. Uh.

3389
03:49:28,959 --> 03:49:34,520
You can still find me on Twitter if you request

3390
03:49:35,280 --> 03:49:37,399
to follow me, I will let you follow me. I

3391
03:49:38,000 --> 03:49:40,239
I just rubber stamp, but as it were, but I've

3392
03:49:40,239 --> 03:49:42,840
got to have my tweets protected because otherwise, like a

3393
03:49:42,840 --> 03:49:45,280
bunch of freaks like Zert rush me and get me banned,

3394
03:49:46,159 --> 03:49:48,239
which just happened like twelve times I'm not just talking

3395
03:49:48,239 --> 03:49:52,479
you shit. You can find me at substack if you

3396
03:49:52,520 --> 03:49:57,440
can find my podcast, it's a real Thomas seven seven

3397
03:49:57,520 --> 03:49:59,920
seven that subseck dot com. And that's pretty much where

3398
03:50:00,079 --> 03:50:01,719
up on. Like a lot of things are happening now.

3399
03:50:01,719 --> 03:50:03,120
I know I've been saying that for a minute, but

3400
03:50:04,360 --> 03:50:06,680
I am a one man operation. Like with my dear

3401
03:50:06,719 --> 03:50:11,280
friend and editor Rake, we're a two man operation. But

3402
03:50:12,200 --> 03:50:15,200
I'm I'm working on the second season of Mind Phaser,

3403
03:50:15,799 --> 03:50:18,719
at which time the first season episodes will all become free.

3404
03:50:19,200 --> 03:50:22,120
But there's a help alot going into that. There's a

3405
03:50:22,120 --> 03:50:24,159
hell blot going into like the video we're shooting and

3406
03:50:24,680 --> 03:50:27,120
I've got a helpot of footage, but I gotta make

3407
03:50:27,159 --> 03:50:30,200
it into something and it's damn time consuming. Just please

3408
03:50:30,239 --> 03:50:32,600
continue to bear with me, like I'm getting shipped together.

3409
03:50:32,719 --> 03:50:34,799
But it's and it will be dope, but it's just

3410
03:50:34,840 --> 03:50:36,879
taking time. That's all I got.

3411
03:50:38,200 --> 03:50:42,360
Speaker 1: Well until part five. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Thomas.

3412
03:50:43,719 --> 03:50:44,799
Speaker 2: I likewise, man, thank you.

3413
03:50:47,719 --> 03:50:50,879
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peas Show.

3414
03:50:51,879 --> 03:50:54,920
We had a little delay in between episodes because Thomas's

3415
03:50:54,920 --> 03:50:56,000
life is exciting.

3416
03:50:56,440 --> 03:51:00,159
Speaker 2: How you doing, Thomas, I'm doing well. Man. Yeah, I

3417
03:51:00,159 --> 03:51:04,680
apologize for that. I want to, Like I was telling

3418
03:51:04,959 --> 03:51:10,319
Pete before we went live, a huge amount of people

3419
03:51:10,840 --> 03:51:14,239
reached out out of genuine concern and that's incredible man,

3420
03:51:14,440 --> 03:51:17,600
you know it's really that. I mean not just because

3421
03:51:17,959 --> 03:51:20,920
that you know makes anybody feel good. You know they

3422
03:51:20,920 --> 03:51:24,559
have friends that love them, But that's the essence of

3423
03:51:24,600 --> 03:51:26,799
the social capital I'm talking about all the time. It

3424
03:51:26,879 --> 03:51:30,399
is like building you know, not just pragmatic networks for

3425
03:51:31,559 --> 03:51:34,399
you know, like political action things, but in day to

3426
03:51:34,479 --> 03:51:37,319
day life, like you know, when crises emerged, you know,

3427
03:51:37,399 --> 03:51:39,799
as they always do it on personal terms because someone's

3428
03:51:39,840 --> 03:51:43,840
being terrorized by the regime. You know, there there's there's

3429
03:51:43,840 --> 03:51:46,319
a network of people that organically like springs into action,

3430
03:51:47,040 --> 03:51:49,120
you know, and that so that that's been that's kind

3431
03:51:49,120 --> 03:51:51,399
of the silver lining, man like if there if there

3432
03:51:51,479 --> 03:51:54,879
was one, because that you know that the structure very

3433
03:51:54,920 --> 03:51:59,719
much kind of like came into focus, you know, owing

3434
03:51:59,799 --> 03:52:04,000
to owing to o into something that I mean, frankly,

3435
03:52:04,040 --> 03:52:06,440
in the broad scheme like was not a big deal.

3436
03:52:06,520 --> 03:52:08,559
But it's when it's going on, it's fucked up and

3437
03:52:08,600 --> 03:52:10,559
you like disappear off the earth if you get arrested

3438
03:52:10,600 --> 03:52:13,079
because they take away all your means of communication. So

3439
03:52:13,600 --> 03:52:15,559
I just I didn't I'm not trying to eat up

3440
03:52:15,600 --> 03:52:17,879
the clock. I just I just wanted this is a

3441
03:52:17,879 --> 03:52:21,239
good opportunity to kind of like address our friends direct.

3442
03:52:21,920 --> 03:52:28,319
But today, I this is this is the last episode

3443
03:52:28,440 --> 03:52:31,959
where I'll approach it and what appears perhaps to be

3444
03:52:32,120 --> 03:52:38,319
kind of a scattershot topical orientation, and we'll get into

3445
03:52:38,680 --> 03:52:41,200
like the nuts and boats, the battlefield situation and how

3446
03:52:41,200 --> 03:52:44,680
it resolved in the next episode. But to understand the

3447
03:52:44,680 --> 03:52:48,639
Spanish War, and frankly too, understand the path that Franco

3448
03:52:49,159 --> 03:52:53,239
struck out as regards to the fear and the third rite,

3449
03:52:53,319 --> 03:52:56,200
as well as you know Spain and it's gewo strategic

3450
03:52:56,239 --> 03:52:59,959
situation generally, you've really you've got to understand how unusual

3451
03:53:00,079 --> 03:53:04,680
the state and as society Spain is. You know, it's

3452
03:53:04,680 --> 03:53:08,639
a complete outlier. And what I mean by that is

3453
03:53:08,680 --> 03:53:13,399
this even you know, I disagree. I take a strong

3454
03:53:13,440 --> 03:53:18,159
exception to people who they're trying to identify, you know,

3455
03:53:18,200 --> 03:53:19,959
and people with people, and then a lot of a

3456
03:53:20,000 --> 03:53:23,479
lot of people who abide kind of Meersheimer's perspective do this.

3457
03:53:23,600 --> 03:53:27,239
And I only reference that because generally I agree with

3458
03:53:27,319 --> 03:53:29,799
those people on certain matters, and this is one of

3459
03:53:29,879 --> 03:53:32,120
those cases where I don't. But you know, they posit

3460
03:53:32,239 --> 03:53:35,120
that there's this kind of school, there's this discreete you know,

3461
03:53:35,239 --> 03:53:39,280
sort of school of political thought, particularly strategic matters, you know,

3462
03:53:39,360 --> 03:53:42,280
of realism, and that you know, there's some there's some

3463
03:53:42,319 --> 03:53:46,959
sort of straight line, basically linear trajectory between these cities,

3464
03:53:47,200 --> 03:53:48,719
you know, all the way through the people at Kings

3465
03:53:48,719 --> 03:53:53,719
of Burnham and this nonsense. However, the first really modern

3466
03:53:53,760 --> 03:53:56,799
political theorist was was Machiavelli. Okay, and there's a reason

3467
03:53:56,799 --> 03:54:01,280
why Machiavelli he identified he had identified and Isabella as

3468
03:54:01,319 --> 03:54:04,719
the first true like you know, are architects of the

3469
03:54:04,719 --> 03:54:07,079
modern state, you know. And then then and this proceeded,

3470
03:54:07,319 --> 03:54:10,159
this proceeded not just with failure, but the thirty years

3471
03:54:10,159 --> 03:54:16,000
were itself by one hundred years. You know. So there's

3472
03:54:16,040 --> 03:54:19,120
there's this lyrid economy of Spain, because Spain, you know,

3473
03:54:19,680 --> 03:54:21,920
in living memory, it's always views either the sick man

3474
03:54:21,959 --> 03:54:25,719
of Europe or this kind of you know, backward state comparatively,

3475
03:54:26,600 --> 03:54:29,440
or the state that's you know, compromised in terms of

3476
03:54:29,440 --> 03:54:34,280
its social sociological architecture, you know, by by reactionary tendencies

3477
03:54:34,719 --> 03:54:37,280
and you know, things that are more characteristic of the

3478
03:54:37,319 --> 03:54:40,239
developing world, you know, than they are uh that, than

3479
03:54:40,280 --> 03:54:42,920
they are Europe, you know, America and North Asia. But

3480
03:54:43,600 --> 03:54:45,760
Spain was a century ahead of the curve and its

3481
03:54:45,799 --> 03:54:51,719
political development, you know, even amidst uh these arguably, you know,

3482
03:54:51,760 --> 03:54:57,840
conditions have impoverished you know, material and social capital. And

3483
03:54:57,879 --> 03:55:01,479
that's a curious question because to a lesser degree and

3484
03:55:01,479 --> 03:55:04,600
in different capacities. You know, Russia was like that too.

3485
03:55:05,120 --> 03:55:11,840
You know, there was this tremendously evolved intellectual uh climate

3486
03:55:12,040 --> 03:55:15,079
in Russia. I mean, and it had horrible outcomes. Okay,

3487
03:55:15,120 --> 03:55:17,799
I mean that's that's why communism and found such fertile ground.

3488
03:55:17,799 --> 03:55:24,479
But you know, again, right, Russia was decades ahead in

3489
03:55:24,600 --> 03:55:27,719
terms of in terms of in terms of the in

3490
03:55:27,760 --> 03:55:30,399
terms of the intellectual paradigms. It was playing with a

3491
03:55:30,920 --> 03:55:34,239
state craft. But in terms of material capital and the

3492
03:55:34,280 --> 03:55:37,760
conditions that allow, you know, for material capital to truly

3493
03:55:37,799 --> 03:55:43,079
flourish and you know, and provide technological development, those things,

3494
03:55:43,680 --> 03:55:50,559
those things were absent. And that also you know, Spain,

3495
03:55:50,840 --> 03:55:53,680
unlike most empires space to say, Spain, the Spanish Empire

3496
03:55:53,680 --> 03:55:59,280
didn't become rich. It probably in it's in the terms

3497
03:55:59,280 --> 03:56:03,159
we understand health and money. This Spain, the Spanish Remora

3498
03:56:03,239 --> 03:56:05,319
zine that was was was the well these empire that

3499
03:56:05,319 --> 03:56:09,040
ever existed. Okay, you know, it spanned his planet. It

3500
03:56:09,120 --> 03:56:12,719
was able to challenge the Royal Navy, you know it

3501
03:56:12,719 --> 03:56:14,159
it was just it was just like it was. It

3502
03:56:14,159 --> 03:56:17,639
was a juggernaut basically. You know, it was just incredibly powerful.

3503
03:56:18,360 --> 03:56:24,000
But it's social art sector didn't really become more complex

3504
03:56:24,079 --> 03:56:27,079
with that. You know, it's it's wild we overstated or

3505
03:56:27,079 --> 03:56:29,239
people to talk about this, you know, the middle class

3506
03:56:29,280 --> 03:56:32,319
like it's this ambassador class, and like it can finesse

3507
03:56:32,760 --> 03:56:38,760
these intrinsic you know, alleged hostilities you know, between a

3508
03:56:38,760 --> 03:56:42,360
master and serf, from between like aristocrat and peasant, or

3509
03:56:42,440 --> 03:56:48,000
between uh you know, proletarian and and and and a

3510
03:56:48,040 --> 03:56:52,440
high bourgeoisie and and that's nonsense. But there is like

3511
03:56:52,959 --> 03:56:55,559
something of a causal nexus there. I think it's more

3512
03:56:55,680 --> 03:56:59,959
just that, you know, as social theological architecture becomes more diversified,

3513
03:57:00,239 --> 03:57:03,360
owing to the increased complexity of economic activity and behavior

3514
03:57:03,559 --> 03:57:06,399
at scale, that there just becomes more and more kinds

3515
03:57:06,399 --> 03:57:10,040
of threads of complex integration and interdependence between institutions and

3516
03:57:10,079 --> 03:57:14,239
people's and that appears from without you know, if you

3517
03:57:14,239 --> 03:57:16,280
want to like turn into an event diagram as this

3518
03:57:16,399 --> 03:57:19,200
kind of middle class you know, being embassed, you know,

3519
03:57:19,200 --> 03:57:21,879
playing in an ambassador role, but regardless of you know,

3520
03:57:22,200 --> 03:57:25,239
the chicken or the egg and how that resolves in

3521
03:57:25,239 --> 03:57:28,840
one's own mind or in real terms. That that didn't

3522
03:57:28,840 --> 03:57:33,479
happen in Spain, Okay, you have this historically divided society

3523
03:57:34,239 --> 03:57:39,280
and they, you know, finally when the nineteenth century arrived.

3524
03:57:39,600 --> 03:57:43,040
You know, the Spanish didn't Spain had a totally earerent

3525
03:57:43,120 --> 03:57:46,159
experience in the nineteenth century than everybody else did, you know,

3526
03:57:46,280 --> 03:57:49,559
like the long Piece, they didn't experience that. Instead of

3527
03:57:49,600 --> 03:57:54,319
the experienced incredibly you know, chaotic circumstances. They were punctuated

3528
03:57:54,360 --> 03:58:00,120
by crisis after crisis after crisis after crisis, you know,

3529
03:58:00,000 --> 03:58:02,680
you know, way eighteen fourteen, you know, they were occupied

3530
03:58:02,680 --> 03:58:05,479
by Napoleon. You know, they didn't just they weren't just

3531
03:58:06,719 --> 03:58:08,040
you know, they weren't just part of you know, the

3532
03:58:08,360 --> 03:58:11,840
alliance that at the Battle of Nations or something. You know,

3533
03:58:12,159 --> 03:58:18,120
they they were they were under occupation for for for

3534
03:58:18,200 --> 03:58:23,159
close to a decade, you know, and from there it.

3535
03:58:23,959 --> 03:58:26,040
You know, like we talked about in a week or

3536
03:58:26,079 --> 03:58:31,479
two ago, really the only kind of punctuated, uh, military

3537
03:58:31,559 --> 03:58:35,520
crises in the nineteenth century in Europe were localized. You know.

3538
03:58:35,559 --> 03:58:37,479
There was like the Franco Prussian War, it was the

3539
03:58:37,479 --> 03:58:40,680
Crimean War, but neither one of those, you know, really

3540
03:58:41,440 --> 03:58:45,280
were as impactful like outside of a theater level. And

3541
03:58:45,319 --> 03:58:51,399
there's the eighteen forty eight revolutions, but that that that

3542
03:58:51,399 --> 03:58:55,079
that was nothing like nineteen seventeen or like or like

3543
03:58:55,120 --> 03:58:57,600
seventeen eighty nine. You know. But in the case of Spain,

3544
03:58:58,280 --> 03:59:04,639
they they're they they came to civil war. Conditions were

3545
03:59:04,680 --> 03:59:07,360
emerging in eighteen twenty two, eighteen twenty three, and French

3546
03:59:07,399 --> 03:59:11,440
military intervention ended that eighteen twenty seven, there was the

3547
03:59:11,520 --> 03:59:14,799
Catalan insurrection. You know, in these and these and these

3548
03:59:14,879 --> 03:59:21,280
uh these uh these secession oriented you know, the political

3549
03:59:21,319 --> 03:59:25,120
movements on sundry in Spain like always had always had

3550
03:59:25,120 --> 03:59:28,159
traction in peculiar ways. Eighteen thirty three, eighteen forty it

3551
03:59:28,239 --> 03:59:31,360
was the first Carlist War, which was incredibly bloody, you know,

3552
03:59:31,559 --> 03:59:34,680
eighteen fifty nine, you know, the Moroccan orb independence pops

3553
03:59:34,719 --> 03:59:39,040
off eighteen seventy to eighteen seventy six, there's the Second

3554
03:59:39,040 --> 03:59:43,559
Carlist War. During this whole time, Spain was fighting in

3555
03:59:43,559 --> 03:59:48,079
in in the Americas, you know, because of these Hispanic

3556
03:59:48,159 --> 03:59:51,840
American colonial revolts, you know, eighteen sixty eighteen eighteen sixty

3557
03:59:51,879 --> 03:59:54,719
eight to eighteen seventy eight, there's the Ten Years War

3558
03:59:54,760 --> 03:59:59,159
in Cuba and the subsequently Spain literally fought America, you know,

3559
03:59:59,200 --> 04:00:04,600
I mean this, this is the uh, the degree, the

3560
04:00:04,680 --> 04:00:08,920
degree with in Spain and the Two Cuban and the

3561
04:00:08,959 --> 04:00:12,680
Two Cuban Wars lost over one hundred thousand kia. You know.

3562
04:00:14,440 --> 04:00:17,559
No European power absorbed that much military attrition. There were

3563
04:00:17,600 --> 04:00:21,639
loss as much territory and so rapid its time frame

3564
04:00:21,680 --> 04:00:24,600
as Spain did in the nineteenth century. You know. Uh,

3565
04:00:24,760 --> 04:00:29,120
I'd say what happened in Spain at reduced scale and

3566
04:00:29,200 --> 04:00:35,639
adjusting for strategic conditions of the of the of the

3567
04:00:35,639 --> 04:00:39,239
power political landscape, what happened in Spain was as catastrophic

3568
04:00:39,280 --> 04:00:41,440
as what happened to the Soviet Union? Are you believing

3569
04:00:41,479 --> 04:00:45,280
more so? That Spain was quite literally violently ripped apart,

3570
04:00:45,440 --> 04:00:50,239
you know, and it was this is how the this

3571
04:00:50,559 --> 04:00:53,559
is what gave birth to the Spanish Revolutionary Left. Okay,

3572
04:00:53,600 --> 04:00:57,520
the Spanish Revolutionary Left was always more savage, more sanguinary,

3573
04:00:58,239 --> 04:01:02,600
more aggressive, more unwilling to compromise than than anybody except

3574
04:01:02,840 --> 04:01:09,840
probably the Bolsheviks who succeeded them, and uh you know

3575
04:01:09,840 --> 04:01:14,440
in the Jacobans, who inspired every every radical tendency subsequent.

3576
04:01:15,639 --> 04:01:18,479
But in eighteen twenty one is kind of viewed as

3577
04:01:18,479 --> 04:01:24,280
the year that the Spanish revolutionary Left came about. What

3578
04:01:24,360 --> 04:01:29,280
they were, the big the kind of seminal moment in

3579
04:01:29,479 --> 04:01:37,120
uh in a subsequent to you know, ferinand and Isabella,

3580
04:01:38,079 --> 04:01:41,399
you know, creating the Spanish national state was the Constitution

3581
04:01:41,639 --> 04:01:45,360
of eighteen twelve. And I'm sure gonna butcher this pronunciation,

3582
04:01:45,559 --> 04:01:48,479
but these liberal reformers, like some of them are quite radical,

3583
04:01:48,959 --> 04:01:51,879
you know, who are most responsible for structuring and authoring

3584
04:01:51,879 --> 04:01:57,799
of that constitution or they were called Doquianistas or Dosinistas.

3585
04:01:57,879 --> 04:01:59,719
I don't know if it's a hard or soft seat,

3586
04:02:00,319 --> 04:02:04,520
but they were pretty pretty rapidly moderated after they got

3587
04:02:04,520 --> 04:02:09,520
their weight, and they tried to implement a parliamentarian structure,

3588
04:02:10,079 --> 04:02:13,600
you know, of true sort of power sharing arrangements at

3589
04:02:13,680 --> 04:02:18,440
interval that by which you know, due process would be

3590
04:02:18,440 --> 04:02:22,719
abided regardless of the outcome of parliamentary elections. Okay, this

3591
04:02:22,799 --> 04:02:25,120
is the last time any faction in the left ever

3592
04:02:25,200 --> 04:02:33,520
abided that. And by eighteen twenty one, the disinfection from within,

3593
04:02:34,600 --> 04:02:39,840
you know, essentially the young Turks who came known as

3594
04:02:39,840 --> 04:02:45,399
the Exaltados. Their whole notion was, look, you know that

3595
04:02:45,520 --> 04:02:50,360
the prize in political contest, you know, within the state

3596
04:02:50,639 --> 04:02:55,360
are the state itself. Okay, if you know, if if

3597
04:02:55,360 --> 04:02:57,319
we're gonna you know, if every if every three or

3598
04:02:57,360 --> 04:02:59,959
six or eight or ten years, you know, we're gonna

3599
04:03:00,000 --> 04:03:03,719
we're gonna briefly capture, you know, we're gonna really capture

3600
04:03:03,879 --> 04:03:06,799
you know, legislative majorities and things, you know, and then

3601
04:03:06,840 --> 04:03:09,399
just rush to you know, implement as much relief to

3602
04:03:10,399 --> 04:03:13,200
you know, to uh, to our class comrades as as

3603
04:03:13,319 --> 04:03:15,760
as as possible. But then immediately, you know, hand the

3604
04:03:15,840 --> 04:03:18,559
range of state over to our enemies and watch that

3605
04:03:18,680 --> 04:03:23,000
be undone. You know, we're that that's that's uh, that's

3606
04:03:23,000 --> 04:03:26,920
beyond a fool's Errand you know, it's it's some it's

3607
04:03:26,959 --> 04:03:29,559
a it's gonna and and it's it's beyond and even

3608
04:03:29,559 --> 04:03:33,600
pointless some you know, sort of acceptance of the status

3609
04:03:33,639 --> 04:03:38,399
quo because that like obviously over time that simply grinds down,

3610
04:03:38,680 --> 04:03:42,600
you know, the revolutionary uh impetus like in in the

3611
04:03:42,680 --> 04:03:46,360
minds of of anyone who participates in the system, because

3612
04:03:46,680 --> 04:03:50,440
you know, a definition the system exists and neutralized, you know,

3613
04:03:50,959 --> 04:03:54,360
not just like like like reformist tendencies, let let alone

3614
04:03:54,360 --> 04:03:59,879
revolutionary ones. Okay, So exultatos, we're now willing to surrender

3615
04:04:00,239 --> 04:04:03,040
the ground, you know, for the sake of due process

3616
04:04:03,239 --> 04:04:08,120
or or or constidential consent, power sharing or anything else. Okay.

3617
04:04:08,840 --> 04:04:12,600
And there's a very Schmidtian concept of state, you know,

3618
04:04:12,680 --> 04:04:17,000
and not and and that I mean and that that

3619
04:04:17,040 --> 04:04:20,040
that makes sense, okay for for all kinds of reasons.

3620
04:04:20,440 --> 04:04:25,239
But the uh, the main, the main characteristic of the

3621
04:04:25,399 --> 04:04:30,639
Iseltatos and what remained as kind of the core essence

3622
04:04:31,159 --> 04:04:34,879
of the French or at the front the Spanish radical

3623
04:04:34,959 --> 04:04:40,079
left subsequent was a total rejection and moderation and an

3624
04:04:40,079 --> 04:04:44,920
employment of violence not just to secure, uh, not just

3625
04:04:44,959 --> 04:04:50,959
to secure absolute you know, majoritarian consensus, but also to

3626
04:04:51,120 --> 04:04:56,079
enforce government policy once they accomplished or captured that consensus,

3627
04:04:56,360 --> 04:04:59,040
you know, and and and a view that it was

3628
04:04:59,040 --> 04:05:03,440
perfectly legitimate to enforce, not just enforce compliance you know,

3629
04:05:03,520 --> 04:05:08,440
through use of of of a violent terror apparatus, but

3630
04:05:08,479 --> 04:05:11,399
also to crush all all resistance and the president they

3631
04:05:11,440 --> 04:05:14,799
drew upon. You know, when when when these kinds of

3632
04:05:15,040 --> 04:05:17,319
more liberal minded moderates would say, look, you know, we

3633
04:05:17,360 --> 04:05:22,120
all want the same things. You know where you're you're

3634
04:05:22,159 --> 04:05:26,799
setting us back with these kinds of sanguinary longings. The

3635
04:05:26,920 --> 04:05:29,440
rebuttal was, look, you know that our president for this

3636
04:05:29,600 --> 04:05:32,000
is seventeen eighty nine. You know, and if you think

3637
04:05:32,000 --> 04:05:34,280
the Jacobins were, you know, we're willing to come to

3638
04:05:34,319 --> 04:05:37,000
the table with royalists and and and engage in horse trading.

3639
04:05:37,360 --> 04:05:39,040
You know, you're you're you're out of your mind or

3640
04:05:39,079 --> 04:05:42,799
you're a liar, you know, and within the bound rationality

3641
04:05:42,840 --> 04:05:45,559
they're objectives. They did have a point, you can't you

3642
04:05:45,600 --> 04:05:51,040
can't transpose, you can't transpose parliamentarism to uh a body

3643
04:05:51,079 --> 04:05:54,920
politic where there's no moral consensus. And uh, you can't

3644
04:05:55,520 --> 04:05:58,559
the entire theory of of progressive as government with a

3645
04:05:58,639 --> 04:06:07,079
capital P even that itself uh you know as uh

3646
04:06:07,399 --> 04:06:11,920
it's epistemic priors are basically that you know, in conditions

3647
04:06:11,920 --> 04:06:15,639
where that consensus didn't exist before it has been achieved.

3648
04:06:16,159 --> 04:06:21,079
You know, as a conditioned precedent of of uh you know,

3649
04:06:21,239 --> 04:06:25,120
of of of of of our program. Okay, so all

3650
04:06:25,159 --> 04:06:26,799
these things, it should become clear that kind of like

3651
04:06:26,799 --> 04:06:30,000
a perfect storm. I mean, I it sound corny, but

3652
04:06:30,239 --> 04:06:35,399
a perfect constellation maybe more properly of factors, uh, you

3653
04:06:35,440 --> 04:06:40,719
know many uh many owing to an escapable precedent that

3654
04:06:41,040 --> 04:06:44,799
set Spain on a uniquely kind of tragic course.

3655
04:06:45,120 --> 04:06:48,920
Speaker 1: But also you know, just after yeah, after that uh

3656
04:06:49,159 --> 04:06:50,319
technical difficulty.

3657
04:06:50,520 --> 04:06:54,680
Speaker 2: Uh, that's all good, it's uh, it's kind of nostalgic,

3658
04:06:54,719 --> 04:07:00,200
you know. But the But at the same time, mean,

3659
04:07:00,239 --> 04:07:03,959
no matter how much you exult the you know, the

3660
04:07:03,959 --> 04:07:06,239
the kind of law of the blade and the barrel

3661
04:07:06,239 --> 04:07:09,239
of a gun over you know, that of the per

3662
04:07:09,319 --> 04:07:13,319
real pen and paper of you know, money and and

3663
04:07:13,399 --> 04:07:21,799
buying your way to to you know, policy realization. No, no,

3664
04:07:21,719 --> 04:07:26,280
no matter how much you're enthralled the violence and coercion

3665
04:07:27,280 --> 04:07:32,799
as sort of the currency of of uh, of authority,

3666
04:07:33,079 --> 04:07:35,479
at some point that that that sort of runs its course,

3667
04:07:35,879 --> 04:07:38,520
you know, and and it develops, it develops a crisis

3668
04:07:38,559 --> 04:07:41,200
of legitimacy, you know, and then people just get sick

3669
04:07:41,239 --> 04:07:46,799
of it. And this is exactly what happened, and uh

3670
04:07:47,239 --> 04:07:53,159
the the again once again to the Exultatles were overthrown

3671
04:07:53,200 --> 04:07:58,360
by by the French army on uh W, which which

3672
04:07:58,399 --> 04:08:01,879
became you know, it's it's interesting because a peculiar kind

3673
04:08:01,879 --> 04:08:06,719
of a peculiar kind of uh interdependence developed, like like

3674
04:08:06,760 --> 04:08:09,840
these multiple French military interventions. You know, this wasn't this

3675
04:08:09,920 --> 04:08:12,559
wasn't like the vermach like assaulting the Soviet Union or

3676
04:08:12,600 --> 04:08:15,360
like the Soviet Union like you know, assaulting Poland or something.

3677
04:08:15,680 --> 04:08:19,319
I mean, yeah, there's always like the deserts, categorical hostility

3678
04:08:19,600 --> 04:08:22,799
like the jury in defecto when you're talking about you know,

3679
04:08:23,159 --> 04:08:30,079
armed men of you know, understatus of alienage, you know,

3680
04:08:30,120 --> 04:08:36,159
crossing a sovereign frontier. But after uh, after Waterloo, it

3681
04:08:36,760 --> 04:08:42,000
there they just became you know, like the one of

3682
04:08:42,040 --> 04:08:47,440
the checks on h on anarchy. As Spain you know,

3683
04:08:47,559 --> 04:08:53,120
kind of went through this painful nineteenth century was uh,

3684
04:08:53,479 --> 04:08:58,040
you know, a tolerance if not you know, out and

3685
04:08:58,040 --> 04:09:04,319
out acceptance of uh a French interventionism, uh you know,

3686
04:09:04,440 --> 04:09:08,760
beyond their their common border. When you know, things appear

3687
04:09:08,840 --> 04:09:12,159
to be careering towards open civil war, and I mean

3688
04:09:12,200 --> 04:09:14,399
that that's that's a tangent, but it is it is

3689
04:09:14,479 --> 04:09:18,840
interesting and it goes to show you that, uh, some

3690
04:09:18,920 --> 04:09:24,079
of the Westphalian paradigm, uh in condition to peace between

3691
04:09:24,159 --> 04:09:27,000
states is a myth like this idea that you know,

3692
04:09:27,920 --> 04:09:30,319
borders are rigid to the point that you know, we

3693
04:09:30,319 --> 04:09:34,239
can't even talk about you know, complex interdependence as having

3694
04:09:34,280 --> 04:09:37,879
any you know sort of sort of high high concern

3695
04:09:37,920 --> 04:09:43,840
and high politics. But to put this in perspective, like

3696
04:09:43,920 --> 04:09:46,159
a dear friend of ours who came to visit me

3697
04:09:46,239 --> 04:09:49,879
the other week, uh he uh, he was kind of

3698
04:09:49,879 --> 04:09:53,239
have to mail me Stanley G. Paynes, p A Y

3699
04:09:53,520 --> 04:09:58,440
N E. Like I guess like Max Pain for the

3700
04:09:58,479 --> 04:10:02,920
for the for the gamer bros on the But this

3701
04:10:03,000 --> 04:10:05,360
is a this is a very like storied book that

3702
04:10:06,239 --> 04:10:09,360
and and our friend like mailed it to me, which

3703
04:10:09,440 --> 04:10:13,559
is great. So I read it after I got back

3704
04:10:13,559 --> 04:10:18,000
from jail, and it's shocked full of facts and figures

3705
04:10:18,280 --> 04:10:22,360
and it basically deals with uh like the book itself,

3706
04:10:22,920 --> 04:10:27,159
it basically deals with, you know what, like the unraveling

3707
04:10:27,159 --> 04:10:32,280
of the Spanish Republic, you know, especially the especially the

3708
04:10:32,319 --> 04:10:36,399
critical months through nineteen thirty five and in nineteen thirty

3709
04:10:36,479 --> 04:10:40,680
six before I'm not at the point of the formal

3710
04:10:41,399 --> 04:10:42,719
onset of hostilities.

3711
04:10:42,760 --> 04:10:48,120
Speaker 1: But people are going to ask, people are going to

3712
04:10:48,159 --> 04:10:49,399
ask what the name of the book is.

3713
04:10:49,440 --> 04:10:54,639
Speaker 2: So oh it's uh the Collapse of the Spanish Republic. Yeah,

3714
04:10:54,760 --> 04:10:59,000
I'm sorry, by Stanley G. Payne again, p A Y

3715
04:10:59,239 --> 04:11:02,840
n E. It's got nothing to do with like Marky

3716
04:11:02,959 --> 04:11:06,040
Mark though, like in Max Pain, but that's like.

3717
04:11:05,959 --> 04:11:09,600
Speaker 1: I have like six books by him, so yeah.

3718
04:11:09,239 --> 04:11:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he he's written some great stuff. And like

3719
04:11:11,559 --> 04:11:15,360
I it's not I mean everybody, especially like all I

3720
04:11:15,399 --> 04:11:17,840
really do is is research, man, you know, like it's

3721
04:11:17,840 --> 04:11:20,799
not me like paying myself on the back about like

3722
04:11:20,879 --> 04:11:24,040
what a good boy I am or something, but even

3723
04:11:24,079 --> 04:11:29,680
somebody like me who's kind of stock in trade is

3724
04:11:29,840 --> 04:11:34,479
uh is academic research. There's there there are certain authors

3725
04:11:34,520 --> 04:11:36,840
that you're you know, you're going to rely on more

3726
04:11:36,879 --> 04:11:38,479
than others, and there's gonna be some that just aren't

3727
04:11:38,520 --> 04:11:41,200
really in your personal cannon. And like not only any

3728
04:11:41,440 --> 04:11:46,799
conceptual prejudice or something or judgment on quality, you know,

3729
04:11:46,959 --> 04:11:53,399
punitive or or praising. But for whatever reason, uh, Pain

3730
04:11:53,600 --> 04:11:58,639
never sort of entered into my personal canon. So uh again, uh,

3731
04:11:59,040 --> 04:12:01,920
dude knows who he is who sent us this book?

3732
04:12:02,000 --> 04:12:06,840
And that's awesome, and it's been a huge help for

3733
04:12:07,399 --> 04:12:09,520
one of the reasons why it's shocked full of of

3734
04:12:09,719 --> 04:12:13,600
data that you know, is not i mean not data

3735
04:12:13,600 --> 04:12:16,719
for data's sake, but you know, data of a material

3736
04:12:16,719 --> 04:12:19,920
of entering nature that helps put things into you know,

3737
04:12:19,959 --> 04:12:24,719
kind of high relief as regardless perspective and kind of

3738
04:12:24,719 --> 04:12:31,399
the sequences after from from the Napoleon occupation and or

3739
04:12:31,440 --> 04:12:37,000
Waterloo onward. They got the phases in in in modern

3740
04:12:37,040 --> 04:12:39,760
Spanish politics were you know, from eighteen to white to

3741
04:12:39,799 --> 04:12:44,079
eighteen fourteen, there was a there there there there was

3742
04:12:44,120 --> 04:12:47,239
a leftist regime in power, you know, And it's that

3743
04:12:47,239 --> 04:12:50,959
that that'd be worthy of an entire episode or a

3744
04:12:50,959 --> 04:12:55,520
couple of episodes, like what the relationship was of Napoleonism

3745
04:12:55,600 --> 04:13:01,040
to or Bonapartism to Jacobinism, and that's that, that's that's

3746
04:13:01,120 --> 04:13:05,239
that is a Gailian processes written all over it. But

3747
04:13:06,879 --> 04:13:10,159
make no mistake, uh, this this was this this this

3748
04:13:10,239 --> 04:13:14,200
wasn't Neo Jacobin regime at the reins during the occupation

3749
04:13:15,799 --> 04:13:18,559
again from eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty five

3750
04:13:18,680 --> 04:13:23,440
and thirty eight, eighteen fifty and fifty six, sixty eighteen

3751
04:13:23,559 --> 04:13:26,559
seventy three, nineteen seventeen, ninety twenty three, and then of

3752
04:13:26,600 --> 04:13:29,000
course in nineteen thirty one, ninety thirty nine. You know,

3753
04:13:29,079 --> 04:13:31,680
these were the the these are the these are the

3754
04:13:31,719 --> 04:13:36,520
phases of the or the or the electoral cycles or

3755
04:13:36,559 --> 04:13:40,920
constellation of cycles wherein the radical left essentially controlled the

3756
04:13:41,079 --> 04:13:46,719
entire national government. Okay, and again you know, as soon

3757
04:13:46,760 --> 04:13:51,200
as one as soon as as soon as one faction

3758
04:13:51,319 --> 04:13:55,200
would would lose to the other. You know, they have

3759
04:13:55,360 --> 04:13:59,000
every every everything there everything they're outgoing enemy had done

3760
04:13:59,159 --> 04:14:01,920
what was sabotage, you know, I mean, so it was

3761
04:14:01,920 --> 04:14:04,680
this it was just kind of like stalemate by design

3762
04:14:04,760 --> 04:14:07,040
and government, you know, and I mean that that's the

3763
04:14:07,079 --> 04:14:09,120
case of the center not being able to hold Also,

3764
04:14:09,879 --> 04:14:13,280
even uh if conditions aren't such that, you know, civil

3765
04:14:13,319 --> 04:14:17,399
war is uh inevitable. You're you're dealing event You're you're

3766
04:14:17,399 --> 04:14:19,040
dealing with the state that eventually is going to become

3767
04:14:19,040 --> 04:14:25,360
a failed state. Okay, the uh, the right wing control

3768
04:14:25,360 --> 04:14:28,600
of the regime, you know, whether it was you know,

3769
04:14:28,639 --> 04:14:31,760
whether whether it was you know, gonna get get conventional

3770
04:14:31,799 --> 04:14:35,600
Spanish nationalists, you know, like Carloss you know, uh, like

3771
04:14:35,719 --> 04:14:44,239
there's like various right wingers. You know, they're they're their

3772
04:14:44,239 --> 04:14:48,600
tenure or there. The other phases of of of government,

3773
04:14:48,719 --> 04:14:54,559
you know, dominance was uh, you know post Water eighteen fourteen,

3774
04:14:54,600 --> 04:14:58,959
eighteen twenty, eighteen twenty three, eighteen thirty three, eighteen thirty nine,

3775
04:14:58,959 --> 04:15:05,200
eighteen fifty four, which is interesting because again staining an outlier.

3776
04:15:05,360 --> 04:15:08,920
You know, they avoided the eighteen forty eight revolutions because

3777
04:15:10,079 --> 04:15:16,520
you know, the right had the country locked down eighteen fifties,

3778
04:15:16,680 --> 04:15:20,399
eighteen fifty six to eighteen sixty eight, eighteen seventy four,

3779
04:15:20,600 --> 04:15:23,879
ninety seventeen, nineteen twenty three to ninety thirty one, and

3780
04:15:23,920 --> 04:15:27,719
of course nineteen thirty nine to nineteen seventy five. I

3781
04:15:27,799 --> 04:15:31,840
take some exception to that. I don't think we can

3782
04:15:31,879 --> 04:15:36,959
talk about the Franco regime after about nineteen fifty four

3783
04:15:37,559 --> 04:15:44,280
as being rightest. I just don't. Okay. Again, it was

3784
04:15:44,319 --> 04:15:50,959
in another example of Spain being a remarkable outlier. But

3785
04:15:51,360 --> 04:15:57,120
I accept what Pain is getting at. And again that

3786
04:15:57,280 --> 04:16:02,840
same paradigm was re emergent. Uh, it wasn't you know,

3787
04:16:02,879 --> 04:16:09,319
there was it wasn't bloody and uh and and who

3788
04:16:09,879 --> 04:16:13,440
almost apocalyptic like as is the case with the sales

3789
04:16:13,479 --> 04:16:17,200
are regime, you know which uh and Seals are the

3790
04:16:17,239 --> 04:16:20,200
fascinating guy, and you know, and the and the and

3791
04:16:20,239 --> 04:16:24,079
the the Portuguese were we're fighting alongside the Rhodesians against

3792
04:16:24,120 --> 04:16:28,200
the communists, you know, for for decades in Africa. You

3793
04:16:28,239 --> 04:16:34,280
know Ian Smith, who who is It's not like his

3794
04:16:34,440 --> 04:16:39,159
pros is particularly elegant or like edifying. And I'm not

3795
04:16:39,200 --> 04:16:42,920
saying that Ahead of State should bother with that. But

3796
04:16:43,120 --> 04:16:45,879
if people are looking for a book that provides that

3797
04:16:45,920 --> 04:16:49,280
sort of inspiration and kind of pleasurable reading, that's not

3798
04:16:49,360 --> 04:16:53,559
the book for you. But there's key insights into the

3799
04:16:53,600 --> 04:16:56,319
mind of Ian Smith. And Smith talks about sales Ar

3800
04:16:56,399 --> 04:16:58,760
is a truly great man. You know. He said, if

3801
04:16:58,639 --> 04:17:01,280
a Slider could have hung on, you know, for two

3802
04:17:01,319 --> 04:17:04,399
or three more years, we probably could have you know,

3803
04:17:04,399 --> 04:17:07,239
we probably could have smashed you know, like Zany upf

3804
04:17:07,399 --> 04:17:10,959
and you know, and and you know and and and

3805
04:17:11,040 --> 04:17:15,559
the proxies of the the wars off hects. But it's

3806
04:17:17,680 --> 04:17:21,159
it's uh, but again that you know, they're they're like

3807
04:17:21,159 --> 04:17:26,319
like Franco wasn't Salizar and Uh there was no Carnation

3808
04:17:26,520 --> 04:17:33,079
Revolution or whatever the uh the Progressive Uprising against Salazar

3809
04:17:33,280 --> 04:17:35,639
was branded. Memory fails me at the minute. I'm still

3810
04:17:35,680 --> 04:17:38,559
kind of shaken off the weekend. But I don't mean

3811
04:17:38,600 --> 04:17:40,799
I go was out like chasing skirt and like guzzling

3812
04:17:40,959 --> 04:17:43,120
Scotch or something. I mean like I got my ass

3813
04:17:43,200 --> 04:17:47,159
kicked this weekend and it hurt my brain. But the

3814
04:17:47,319 --> 04:17:54,040
uh another thing to consider too, you know, the uh,

3815
04:17:54,639 --> 04:17:59,760
the strong suit. I think inarguably in every other state

3816
04:18:00,360 --> 04:18:07,559
where you know radicals and or Bolsheviks and or you know,

3817
04:18:07,920 --> 04:18:11,680
ideological offshoots, you know, whether they were you know, left

3818
04:18:11,680 --> 04:18:17,520
wing syndical lists, you know, uh, anarcho syndical lists, like anarchists.

3819
04:18:18,440 --> 04:18:20,639
I mean, even among the anarchists, there was a kind

3820
04:18:20,680 --> 04:18:26,239
of rigid cadre structure whereby the inner discipline of the

3821
04:18:26,280 --> 04:18:30,440
party and it's cadres was what carried the day and

3822
04:18:30,559 --> 04:18:33,959
allowed them to allow you know, and carry them to victory.

3823
04:18:35,520 --> 04:18:40,719
In Spain, uh, the Spanish left, it was even more naked,

3824
04:18:40,760 --> 04:18:47,920
least sectarian personal like characterized by the faux messianic delusions

3825
04:18:47,959 --> 04:18:53,239
of of individual like players within it. You know, it

3826
04:18:53,280 --> 04:18:56,520
was it was pointlessly like inwardly directed, secretive like these

3827
04:18:56,520 --> 04:18:59,360
guys were constantly at war with each other. You know,

3828
04:19:00,280 --> 04:19:04,079
far far far more than in far more fractious than

3829
04:19:04,079 --> 04:19:06,840
the right wing was, you know. And that's the only

3830
04:19:06,920 --> 04:19:11,239
state like that. And that's not me saying like I mean,

3831
04:19:11,239 --> 04:19:14,479
the right wing is a lot more organic, okay, and

3832
04:19:14,719 --> 04:19:19,360
uh and that you know, and and and it's it

3833
04:19:19,399 --> 04:19:22,120
doesn't emerge. It didn't. It doesn't emerge from some you know,

3834
04:19:22,159 --> 04:19:27,280
from from a literal central committee. Okay. It's that there's

3835
04:19:27,280 --> 04:19:31,239
there's there's reasons of a structural and sociological and historical nature.

3836
04:19:31,719 --> 04:19:36,799
Like conventionally, you know, the modern uh radical left has

3837
04:19:36,840 --> 04:19:44,000
more internal discipline than the right. Okay. But that's why

3838
04:19:44,000 --> 04:19:46,719
it's so striking that in Spain like this was it

3839
04:19:46,799 --> 04:19:51,840
was literally the opposite, you know. And it also explains

3840
04:19:51,879 --> 04:19:55,760
why there this thing started when the Hrmacht intervened, you know,

3841
04:19:55,799 --> 04:19:59,559
invon Toma's u uh you know, counter legion and von

3842
04:19:59,639 --> 04:20:04,760
Tona's tanks and you know these uh and and he's

3843
04:20:04,799 --> 04:20:09,000
been and he stud like battlefield commanders, and Franco had

3844
04:20:08,879 --> 04:20:12,680
had a great eye for for like company level officers,

3845
04:20:12,799 --> 04:20:14,280
I don't know their equivalent to be in the Spanish

3846
04:20:14,319 --> 04:20:17,079
duvery of the day, but like like junior officers. So

3847
04:20:17,200 --> 04:20:19,360
you need you know, to be like platoon leaders and

3848
04:20:19,399 --> 04:20:24,239
company commanders like Franco and Franco's staff, like they knew

3849
04:20:24,239 --> 04:20:27,440
how to culture that kind of talent. Okay, So by

3850
04:20:27,440 --> 04:20:31,200
the time these pressures came to bear, like politically, like

3851
04:20:31,239 --> 04:20:34,959
the French left is like falling apart, you know, and

3852
04:20:35,120 --> 04:20:37,680
not even uh, not even you know, not even the

3853
04:20:37,760 --> 04:20:39,520
n k v D on the ground, not even dudes

3854
04:20:39,559 --> 04:20:42,200
like Eric Milk, like you know, just like whacking people

3855
04:20:42,280 --> 04:20:44,639
who just like you know, just cause like he was

3856
04:20:44,680 --> 04:20:48,639
probably an asshole anyway, and you know he his is

3857
04:20:48,799 --> 04:20:51,200
you know, he wasn't doing what he had to do too,

3858
04:20:51,879 --> 04:20:56,120
you know, sustain like internal discipline you know, within his

3859
04:20:56,159 --> 04:20:58,440
own chain of command and stuff like even with all

3860
04:20:58,639 --> 04:21:03,000
that like conventionally like almost comically it's not common when

3861
04:21:03,000 --> 04:21:05,440
they're talking about like extreme brutality, but that kind of

3862
04:21:05,440 --> 04:21:07,639
like you know, even even a kind of like ridiculous

3863
04:21:07,680 --> 04:21:11,239
level of like stalinists like you know, like compliance through

3864
04:21:11,280 --> 04:21:13,959
like massive brutal violence, like this is still couldn't even

3865
04:21:14,000 --> 04:21:17,479
like phase like this function of the process that they

3866
04:21:17,639 --> 04:21:25,040
just enumerated. And towards the end two you know, talking

3867
04:21:25,079 --> 04:21:31,920
about Spain being ironically you know, decades and in the

3868
04:21:31,959 --> 04:21:35,319
case of the Spanish mountern state emergence, you know, a

3869
04:21:35,479 --> 04:21:38,959
century you know, ahead of the rest of the continent.

3870
04:21:41,040 --> 04:21:44,719
The first uh, the first the first attempt to truly

3871
04:21:44,840 --> 04:21:50,159
organize like a trade like a trade union that you know,

3872
04:21:51,040 --> 04:21:54,799
with an eye for the ability to ultimately you know,

3873
04:21:55,879 --> 04:21:59,719
extoric concessions to general strike h that occurred as really

3874
04:21:59,760 --> 04:22:03,159
is the eighteen thirties, okay, like decades before the American

3875
04:22:03,200 --> 04:22:05,879
War between the States. You know, there's guys in Spain,

3876
04:22:06,520 --> 04:22:08,920
you know, who were talking like a narcocynic list and

3877
04:22:08,959 --> 04:22:12,120
like talking talking like Marcus Atlantis. You know, that's pretty

3878
04:22:12,159 --> 04:22:18,040
crazy and pretty remarkable, all right, especially again we consider that,

3879
04:22:18,799 --> 04:22:21,559
you know, it's I'm not like trading Spain like Spain.

3880
04:22:21,719 --> 04:22:24,600
Spain is fucking incredible. But you know, we're not talking

3881
04:22:24,600 --> 04:22:26,920
about like terrorists, and we're not talking about like Berlin,

3882
04:22:27,559 --> 04:22:29,639
and we're not talking about like London. You know, we're

3883
04:22:29,639 --> 04:22:32,799
talking about Spain. In some cases, you know, like very

3884
04:22:32,840 --> 04:22:36,959
provincial places in Spain that you know, not only weren't

3885
04:22:37,000 --> 04:22:40,239
known for their their kind of cosmopol and embrace of

3886
04:22:40,799 --> 04:22:43,879
exotic ideologies, you know, and things that just kind of

3887
04:22:43,920 --> 04:22:46,360
like tickle the fantasy of aristocrats just you know, thought

3888
04:22:46,399 --> 04:22:52,840
experiments that can be played out with real people. You know. Uh,

3889
04:22:53,479 --> 04:22:57,120
these guys were thinking and absolutely in like twentieth century terms,

3890
04:22:57,239 --> 04:22:59,520
but they were doing so a century early, you know,

3891
04:22:59,559 --> 04:23:02,920
and they were wing still I missed uh uh you

3892
04:23:02,959 --> 04:23:07,319
know a state that was that was still like you know,

3893
04:23:07,639 --> 04:23:10,680
almost entirely like a greery and in terms of its

3894
04:23:10,799 --> 04:23:19,159
local uh, his local economic output that, as Cyrus says

3895
04:23:19,200 --> 04:23:26,559
in The Warriors, is a miracle. But Giuseppe Finelle he

3896
04:23:26,680 --> 04:23:30,040
was an early uh figure of of of advance of

3897
04:23:30,079 --> 04:23:36,360
importance within uh the post Jacobin but pre Leninist left

3898
04:23:37,159 --> 04:23:41,600
and he arrived in Spain and in eighteen sixty eight

3899
04:23:42,840 --> 04:23:46,799
he'd been a great admirer of Bakunin. You know who

3900
04:23:46,840 --> 04:23:52,600
is Marx uh great opponent in the First International Josette

3901
04:23:52,639 --> 04:23:56,399
Finelle he were here out to Madrid without speaking any Spanish.

3902
04:23:56,680 --> 04:23:59,399
He basically had no money. But he said, look, and

3903
04:23:59,399 --> 04:24:01,840
and people like he was crazy, but he said, look,

3904
04:24:02,200 --> 04:24:05,079
he's like the idea as he called it, you know,

3905
04:24:05,200 --> 04:24:09,200
because guy, you know, uh, paris of thought. You know,

3906
04:24:09,239 --> 04:24:11,200
we'd call it the faith even though that's what it is.

3907
04:24:11,239 --> 04:24:16,000
It's an airs faith, he said, the idea, uh he said,

3908
04:24:16,079 --> 04:24:18,719
he said, look, this is the most fertile, like, this

3909
04:24:18,840 --> 04:24:24,840
is almost fertile ground. You know, we can find for

3910
04:24:25,319 --> 04:24:28,559
you know, for for Marxism on the content. Okay. Uh

3911
04:24:28,719 --> 04:24:32,120
there's literally no more like fertile proverbial fertile soil than

3912
04:24:32,120 --> 04:24:37,159
the Spanish body politic to embrace Marxism. Okay, and uh

3913
04:24:37,360 --> 04:24:43,600
he was right, Okay, rapidly Uh uh this got a

3914
04:24:45,159 --> 04:24:48,920
this this abundance of sex just popped up, you know,

3915
04:24:49,040 --> 04:24:53,399
like anarchists, libertarian, you know, anarcho cynic list, you know,

3916
04:24:54,239 --> 04:24:57,319
independent socialists, like every everything you can possibly think of. Okay,

3917
04:24:59,120 --> 04:25:03,520
and again that ultimately served like the like the the

3918
04:25:03,600 --> 04:25:08,319
inherent fractiousness and and sort of anarchic nature of that

3919
04:25:08,799 --> 04:25:13,760
political culture of uh the post Jacob and left in Spain.

3920
04:25:14,319 --> 04:25:17,440
I mean that cost him the war. And it's not

3921
04:25:17,959 --> 04:25:21,399
I I don't accept the kind of Thomas Pain idea

3922
04:25:21,479 --> 04:25:24,440
that like the more the more you hold an endless conversation,

3923
04:25:25,000 --> 04:25:27,000
you know, the more like marvelous things just kind of

3924
04:25:27,000 --> 04:25:31,200
like emerge out of motherfucker's mouths. But uh, but my

3925
04:25:31,319 --> 04:25:35,120
point is that there was a there was a remarkably

3926
04:25:35,280 --> 04:25:40,840
developed intellectual culture on the ground as regards politics and uh,

3927
04:25:41,760 --> 04:25:49,559
you know, political theory unless you're talking to the like,

3928
04:25:49,680 --> 04:25:52,000
unless you're really talking about like Straussian types are just

3929
04:25:52,000 --> 04:25:55,879
like you know, positing like you know, like values, claims

3930
04:25:57,200 --> 04:25:59,719
and and and trying to mind cloud from the fact that,

3931
04:25:59,799 --> 04:26:02,760
you know, they call themselves philosophers or something like. If

3932
04:26:02,760 --> 04:26:04,959
you're talking about if you're talking about polable theory, you're

3933
04:26:05,000 --> 04:26:09,239
talking about you know, you're you're talking about it imagining

3934
04:26:09,360 --> 04:26:12,760
the architecture of the state as an instrumentality of what

3935
04:26:12,840 --> 04:26:17,000
you want to accomplish, and you're imagining, you know, how

3936
04:26:17,040 --> 04:26:20,959
that can be structured in order to accomplish those objectives. Okay,

3937
04:26:22,440 --> 04:26:26,159
so it is essential to any revolutionary enterprise. Okay, Yeah,

3938
04:26:26,200 --> 04:26:29,520
there can be too many theorists and too few uh

3939
04:26:30,159 --> 04:26:34,879
you know, partisans. But the the converse is just as

3940
04:26:35,479 --> 04:26:39,319
self defeating. Okay, I'm sure there's those who are gonna

3941
04:26:39,319 --> 04:26:42,120
say that's like my egghead prejudice. It's not. It's not,

3942
04:26:42,319 --> 04:26:49,000
I don't it's but it's inarguable. Okay, it's not. It's

3943
04:26:49,000 --> 04:26:52,200
not something that it's not something that playable theory yeeks

3944
04:26:52,319 --> 04:26:56,520
just insist upon as as a cope or whatever. But

3945
04:26:58,280 --> 04:27:03,079
the uh, what did prevail initially in terms of the

3946
04:27:03,120 --> 04:27:08,680
dominant strain A bear in mind epistemic priors that informed

3947
04:27:08,799 --> 04:27:11,719
everyone in the radical left were one hundred percent Marxist

3948
04:27:11,799 --> 04:27:19,959
in nature. But the practical tendency, ideological tendency that became,

3949
04:27:20,680 --> 04:27:26,760
you know, most dominant, very rapidly, was we're things of

3950
04:27:26,760 --> 04:27:33,120
an anarchist nature, okay. And in the early days it

3951
04:27:33,280 --> 04:27:37,680
was the largest force within the urban working class of Spain.

3952
04:27:37,840 --> 04:27:42,000
Small that as it was, but again it was it

3953
04:27:42,040 --> 04:27:45,319
was the it was supposed to act as the vanguard. Okay,

3954
04:27:45,760 --> 04:27:50,239
it wasn't you know, a question of taking a head count.

3955
04:27:50,879 --> 04:27:53,440
And there's a lot of reasons why anarchism appealed so

3956
04:27:53,559 --> 04:27:56,520
much to this population, you know, a lot of which

3957
04:27:56,520 --> 04:28:01,079
we just got into. But also something that the left

3958
04:28:01,120 --> 04:28:04,559
in Spain realized very early on, was there, like, look, okay,

3959
04:28:04,959 --> 04:28:08,600
the structure of this state entails things, you know, like

3960
04:28:08,680 --> 04:28:13,879
the Roman church, you know, and uh entails things you

3961
04:28:13,920 --> 04:28:17,719
know like uh like chartered like chartered companies you know,

3962
04:28:17,760 --> 04:28:20,719
that are bound up with the private fortunes of aristocrats.

3963
04:28:21,120 --> 04:28:25,399
You know. The very architecture for the state is like

3964
04:28:25,479 --> 04:28:29,440
teams with teams with the hostility to our objectives. So

3965
04:28:29,680 --> 04:28:34,239
we've got to create parallel institutions. Okay, So we're gonna

3966
04:28:34,280 --> 04:28:36,479
have you know, like the workers Relieve organization. You know,

3967
04:28:36,479 --> 04:28:38,280
We're not We're not We're not gonna go to you know,

3968
04:28:38,639 --> 04:28:41,840
like the monastic order is to like help out widows

3969
04:28:41,600 --> 04:28:44,120
of like the men of ours who die. Okay, Like

3970
04:28:44,479 --> 04:28:48,399
you know, we're not We're not. We're not gonna We're not.

3971
04:28:48,399 --> 04:28:51,000
We're not gonna try and capture you know, the like

3972
04:28:51,000 --> 04:28:56,520
the local constables office and in Catalonia or whatever. You know,

3973
04:28:56,559 --> 04:28:59,399
Like we're gonna we're gonna maintain our own country discipline,

3974
04:28:59,799 --> 04:29:01,559
you know, and we're also going to like handle our

3975
04:29:01,600 --> 04:29:04,239
own like justice. You know, we're never going to rely

3976
04:29:04,360 --> 04:29:08,079
upon you know, the state or any of it's some

3977
04:29:08,600 --> 04:29:13,040
affiliated institutions and bureaucracies, you know, to guarantee as a

3978
04:29:13,159 --> 04:29:15,399
justice or anything else. And we started as we started death.

3979
04:29:15,479 --> 04:29:19,520
But that's the way it's going to be. And that

3980
04:29:19,840 --> 04:29:25,360
is something enduring too that basically everybody imitated, even even

3981
04:29:25,440 --> 04:29:27,799
even even the fascist and the National Socialist to some

3982
04:29:27,920 --> 04:29:33,760
degree imitated that, okay, because it's just in a in

3983
04:29:33,760 --> 04:29:37,920
a political warfare situation, especially during a long struggle, like

3984
04:29:37,959 --> 04:29:42,079
you you just have to do that, okay. And also

3985
04:29:42,239 --> 04:29:46,319
then you know you have you have new institutions and

3986
04:29:46,399 --> 04:29:48,799
being that you know, have never had sort of the

3987
04:29:48,879 --> 04:29:52,559
sovereign authority of the state behind them, but they have.

3988
04:29:52,799 --> 04:29:56,440
They have acted in authoritative capacities on matters of life

3989
04:29:56,440 --> 04:29:59,719
and death. And in some cases their existence is going

3990
04:29:59,799 --> 04:30:02,920
back decades. And you know, they had existed as you know,

3991
04:30:03,440 --> 04:30:07,399
floating like sovereigns and to themselves, you know, in the

3992
04:30:07,399 --> 04:30:09,680
fact that they commanded, you know, they commanded and controlled

3993
04:30:09,719 --> 04:30:12,479
you know, tens of thousands of men under arms. You know,

3994
04:30:12,600 --> 04:30:16,280
they had operational areas that constituted like you know, territory

3995
04:30:16,319 --> 04:30:19,399
they literally held. You know, at some point people are

3996
04:30:19,440 --> 04:30:23,479
talking symantics when they're like, oh, that's not really a government,

3997
04:30:23,559 --> 04:30:26,959
So what are you talking about? Why, you know what,

3998
04:30:27,000 --> 04:30:29,120
why would you even care about you know, why would

3999
04:30:29,120 --> 04:30:32,520
you gonna go to that trouble trying to replace the

4000
04:30:33,920 --> 04:30:37,680
you know, pre pre existing institutions of of of state.

4001
04:30:37,879 --> 04:30:45,600
Well that's that's why this shouldn't be It shouldn't be mysterious.

4002
04:30:46,319 --> 04:30:51,440
And finally, uh or I mean not relatively, It wasn't

4003
04:30:51,520 --> 04:30:53,959
just that the church and in Spain we can talk

4004
04:30:54,000 --> 04:30:56,479
about the Church, because I mean Spain, the Spanish are

4005
04:30:56,639 --> 04:31:05,159
Catholic people, you know it Uh, the uh, the Spanish

4006
04:31:05,319 --> 04:31:07,440
left view they view they viewed the church and they

4007
04:31:07,559 --> 04:31:11,239
viewed UH. Despite the fact that I mean that there's

4008
04:31:11,239 --> 04:31:14,440
a delicious irony to fern in Isabella, you know, basically

4009
04:31:15,559 --> 04:31:20,559
removing the mandate of U of the Holy See to

4010
04:31:20,760 --> 04:31:24,520
render a judgment on power political questions of war in peace.

4011
04:31:25,200 --> 04:31:30,280
Well at the same time you know, enforcing uh, you know,

4012
04:31:30,319 --> 04:31:34,280
the moral law according to the understanding of of uh,

4013
04:31:34,719 --> 04:31:37,239
the papacy in a way sight and scene probably for

4014
04:31:37,280 --> 04:31:42,440
five hundred years. And there's also there's also a uh,

4015
04:31:43,680 --> 04:31:46,600
there's also a real irony in guys, you know, like

4016
04:31:46,799 --> 04:31:49,799
waving a red banner as they charging the combat, you know,

4017
04:31:49,920 --> 04:31:54,280
demanding you know, social justice basically you know, assigning the

4018
04:31:54,360 --> 04:31:59,120
Marxist gobbledygook. They're basically saying, like, we're Catholic people, you

4019
04:31:59,159 --> 04:32:02,200
know who need you know, who need a Calolic church

4020
04:32:02,719 --> 04:32:05,159
to sort of act as an air mediory between us

4021
04:32:05,520 --> 04:32:08,920
and there would be class oppressors or aggressors, you know.

4022
04:32:09,159 --> 04:32:11,600
Yet we reject the Kalok Church and want to destroy it.

4023
04:32:12,920 --> 04:32:17,520
But again, the internal logic of it, of the enterprise.

4024
04:32:18,559 --> 04:32:20,879
That's what they would have had to do, Okay, and

4025
04:32:20,879 --> 04:32:23,520
that's one of the reasons people recognize us on some level,

4026
04:32:23,879 --> 04:32:27,959
even people who aren't, you know, ultra sophisticated. Now that

4027
04:32:28,000 --> 04:32:29,920
I'm so sophisticated, but I mean, do spend all day

4028
04:32:29,920 --> 04:32:34,520
like reading about this stuff. But you know, the uh,

4029
04:32:35,200 --> 04:32:41,040
it's it should uh it should become clear, you know,

4030
04:32:41,360 --> 04:32:47,159
at least in part why some of these so of

4031
04:32:47,159 --> 04:32:52,360
these peculiarities became you know, not just sort of you know,

4032
04:32:52,479 --> 04:32:57,959
quirkly identified with the Spanish modern state, but somehow inextricably

4033
04:32:58,079 --> 04:33:00,760
bound off with like it's it's it's it's you know,

4034
04:33:03,520 --> 04:33:08,159
and that's and that's about all I got for today. Man. Again,

4035
04:33:08,200 --> 04:33:14,119
I'm still kind of recovering from my from my my

4036
04:33:14,200 --> 04:33:20,200
vacation the Cook County, at the Cook County Resort and hotel.

4037
04:33:21,200 --> 04:33:24,400
But I thought it was important to cover because we're

4038
04:33:24,400 --> 04:33:27,520
gonna come back to a lot of these aspects and

4039
04:33:27,560 --> 04:33:29,279
I didn't want it to be I didn't want them

4040
04:33:29,319 --> 04:33:33,360
to be issues the first impression, you know, as they

4041
04:33:33,439 --> 04:33:38,720
kind of re emerged. But I promise when we record next,

4042
04:33:39,040 --> 04:33:44,040
we'll we'll get into you know, general Franco arriving back

4043
04:33:44,080 --> 04:33:48,240
from Morocco and you know kind of how battle resolved

4044
04:33:49,319 --> 04:33:55,799
between uh, you know, between the Nationalist element and UH

4045
04:33:55,959 --> 04:33:59,759
counter Legion and the Hermacht and and Thomas tanks, you know,

4046
04:34:00,319 --> 04:34:04,000
and the UH and and the Reds and and Republicans

4047
04:34:04,560 --> 04:34:06,200
all in Sundry. Does that sound good?

4048
04:34:06,720 --> 04:34:10,240
Speaker 1: Sounds great? Plug away?

4049
04:34:10,840 --> 04:34:20,159
Speaker 2: What? Yes, sir, I'm still playing catch up, but I'm

4050
04:34:21,240 --> 04:34:24,759
as I've disclosed the people, you know, the last few weeks,

4051
04:34:25,880 --> 04:34:29,560
me and my my crime partner Rake, where we're We're

4052
04:34:30,799 --> 04:34:33,599
We're trying at a feverish pace to get season two

4053
04:34:33,599 --> 04:34:36,479
of the podcast up and running, and I promise it

4054
04:34:36,479 --> 04:34:39,599
will be in the next few weeks, you know. In

4055
04:34:39,639 --> 04:34:42,720
the meantime, I'm gonna be uploading a lot of free stuff,

4056
04:34:43,599 --> 04:34:47,639
you know, to the sub stack, Like today, I just

4057
04:34:47,759 --> 04:34:51,119
uploaded an interview with a friend of mine, like, you know,

4058
04:34:51,159 --> 04:34:53,840
an older dude who uh who knew Jeff Ford and

4059
04:34:53,880 --> 04:34:58,040
he banged with the l Ruken here in Chicago. I'm

4060
04:34:58,040 --> 04:35:00,000
gonna be I'm gonna when I you know, I'm gonna

4061
04:35:00,159 --> 04:35:02,880
dropping a lot of that kind of stuff until we

4062
04:35:02,959 --> 04:35:06,400
kind of formally relaunched the brand. I've been doing. I've

4063
04:35:06,400 --> 04:35:09,040
been recording a lot with Nico Kloud, who's a fascinating guy,

4064
04:35:09,720 --> 04:35:13,720
an artist and a very controversial figure that's gonna he's

4065
04:35:13,720 --> 04:35:17,840
gonna feature heavily in season two. But you can find

4066
04:35:17,840 --> 04:35:22,599
the substick in the pod at real Thomas seven seven

4067
04:35:22,720 --> 04:35:27,279
seven that substick dot com. Uh. You can find me

4068
04:35:27,319 --> 04:35:30,959
on Twitter, but my tweets are protected. People tell me

4069
04:35:31,000 --> 04:35:34,119
Twitter is not censoring as aggressively as before, but I've

4070
04:35:34,119 --> 04:35:38,439
literally hit my accounts nuke so many times for you know,

4071
04:35:39,240 --> 04:35:41,000
and number once if I.

4072
04:35:40,599 --> 04:35:43,000
Speaker 1: I got suspended for twelve hours yesterday and they didn't

4073
04:35:43,000 --> 04:35:43,919
even tell me why.

4074
04:35:44,279 --> 04:35:46,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean if there's just like crazy bullshit,

4075
04:35:47,000 --> 04:35:49,799
even when the commissars aren't, you know, like busily like

4076
04:35:50,439 --> 04:35:51,959
and excited, I mean, it's like it's like it's like

4077
04:35:52,119 --> 04:35:54,479
born to them or something to just like censor people,

4078
04:35:54,520 --> 04:35:57,919
I think, because they're fucking freaks. But a point being

4079
04:35:58,000 --> 04:36:00,880
like I do protect my tweets because I is to

4080
04:36:00,919 --> 04:36:03,880
be the only way to like not be fucking nuke them,

4081
04:36:04,240 --> 04:36:08,599
you know, just arbitrar early. But you can find you

4082
04:36:08,599 --> 04:36:11,360
can always find me in my website. It's just Thomas

4083
04:36:11,360 --> 04:36:14,439
seven seven seven dot com number seven eight twenty seven

4084
04:36:14,479 --> 04:36:17,599
seven seven dot com. That's where all my like fresh

4085
04:36:17,639 --> 04:36:21,080
stuff like appears. It's still like somewhat under construction, but

4086
04:36:22,680 --> 04:36:27,840
you can that will always be around. Okay. And as uh,

4087
04:36:28,840 --> 04:36:31,599
people keep asking about the channel content that is coming

4088
04:36:31,639 --> 04:36:34,040
to I haven't figured out exactly how I want to

4089
04:36:34,040 --> 04:36:37,159
integrate it with the pod. I want some I don't

4090
04:36:37,159 --> 04:36:38,759
want to just be like a mirror of the pod.

4091
04:36:38,840 --> 04:36:41,639
But with video, I mean, if people want sign some

4092
04:36:41,680 --> 04:36:43,799
people like that and they just like listening to stuff,

4093
04:36:43,799 --> 04:36:47,200
I like to see your YouTube, I'll do that, but

4094
04:36:47,400 --> 04:36:50,360
I do want some original video content. I don't want

4095
04:36:50,360 --> 04:36:53,240
primarily that the channel to be that like one thing

4096
04:36:53,240 --> 04:36:58,639
at a time. And I'm uh, I want to I'm yeah,

4097
04:36:58,720 --> 04:37:01,360
and it's but that's the basically where we're at. Okay,

4098
04:37:01,959 --> 04:37:06,319
and just keep uh, just keep your eyes peeled for

4099
04:37:06,639 --> 04:37:09,959
like fresh stuff because I'm gonna be uploading I'm gonna

4100
04:37:09,959 --> 04:37:12,000
be uploading a ton of like just free stuff like

4101
04:37:12,119 --> 04:37:16,680
it today every several days. And when when the season

4102
04:37:16,680 --> 04:37:19,479
two of the pod launches, all season one content is

4103
04:37:19,479 --> 04:37:24,119
going to become free immediately and it will be dope

4104
04:37:24,240 --> 04:37:27,599
like and when I say like rebranding, like we've got

4105
04:37:27,639 --> 04:37:30,520
the resources and and kind of the knowledge as well

4106
04:37:30,520 --> 04:37:32,560
as you know, sort of like the you know, a

4107
04:37:32,680 --> 04:37:35,000
higher profile in terms of people who are willing to

4108
04:37:35,000 --> 04:37:38,919
work with us, you know, like like Nego klout like yourself,

4109
04:37:39,240 --> 04:37:42,080
I'm not seeing you guys are like similar people and

4110
04:37:43,479 --> 04:37:48,000
understand okay, okay, but and uh and and people like

4111
04:37:48,200 --> 04:37:50,599
you know, my friend Big d you know, who drops

4112
04:37:50,599 --> 04:37:53,720
his system when you're honest about the old rouken But uh,

4113
04:37:54,159 --> 04:37:58,959
like we're popping quite splendidly, and and that that that's

4114
04:37:59,000 --> 04:38:02,159
you know a lot for other potentialities. So yeah, I

4115
04:38:02,200 --> 04:38:06,439
won't I won't hold up the recording anymore. Man. That's

4116
04:38:06,479 --> 04:38:08,560
that's all I got. Thank you so much. And thank

4117
04:38:08,599 --> 04:38:11,520
you again for like the trans love and concern for

4118
04:38:11,680 --> 04:38:15,799
me when you know I went dark and accounted being arrested,

4119
04:38:17,080 --> 04:38:19,439
Like I really mean that. I got huge love for

4120
04:38:19,599 --> 04:38:21,400
all of our friends a.

4121
04:38:21,599 --> 04:38:23,000
Speaker 1: Man, I appreciate it. Thank you,