1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Apologetics three fifteen podcast with 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,240 your hosts Brian Auten and Chad Gross. Join us for 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,800 conversations and interviews on the topics of apologetics, evangelism, and 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,160 the Christian worldview. 5 00:00:19,359 --> 00:00:22,679 Speaker 2: What he means is Old Testament mister mayor real Wrap 6 00:00:22,679 --> 00:00:23,640 of God type. 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,519 Speaker 3: Stoffick, Welcome to the Apologetics three p fifteen podcasts. This 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,559 is Chad Gross. I am flying solo today. Brian Auten 9 00:00:31,679 --> 00:00:34,119 is off on a mission for me. He is at 10 00:00:34,119 --> 00:00:37,560 the Public Library in New York looking for any spooks 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,759 or specters that have been reported. So welcome to today's conversation. 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,240 I am going to be joined by Christopher Clues of 13 00:00:47,359 --> 00:00:51,280 the Christian Philosophy Academy, and recently he had a really 14 00:00:51,359 --> 00:00:57,640 thoughtful debate with theologian Randall Rouser on those difficult Old 15 00:00:57,719 --> 00:01:02,399 Testament violence texts as the called and this is one 16 00:01:02,399 --> 00:01:06,920 of the most debated and difficult issues in Christian theology, 17 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:10,439 how to understand these violent commands that are attributed to 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,959 God in the Old Testament. In this conversation, we're going 19 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,879 to unpack rousers approach. We're going to look at doctor 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,599 Klues's response, and we're going to reflect on what went 21 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,920 well in the debate, what could have gone differently, and 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,879 why this topic matters deeply for anyone that's wrestling with scripture, morality, 23 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,519 and the character of God. So let's get ready. Switch 24 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:38,680 me on, doctor Klues. Welcome to the podcast. 25 00:01:39,159 --> 00:01:40,439 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. 26 00:01:40,879 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm so glad you agreed to come on. I've 27 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:46,280 been following your stuff for quite some time. Featured your 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,079 five Powerful Arguments for the Existence of God's study guide 29 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,519 on truth Bomb and I have gotten so much out 30 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,920 of that and lately, well not lately, for quite some time, 31 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,319 I guess you've been diving deeply into the difficult Old 32 00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:04,920 Testament passages, and I was just curious if you could 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,840 tell us a little bit about yourself and then tell 34 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,000 us what led you to those passages that you wanted 35 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:10,599 to divulge so much time into those. 36 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, Chad, again, thank you so much for having me on. 37 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:14,719 Speaker 3: Yeah. 38 00:02:14,759 --> 00:02:19,199 Speaker 2: Well, my background is really in philosophy, so I've got 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,840 my bachelor's degree in philosophy. Then I sort of went 40 00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:25,120 out and worked in the regular world for a number 41 00:02:25,159 --> 00:02:28,520 of years as a technical writer. Then I went back 42 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,120 got my master's in philosophy and then went on to 43 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:36,319 get my PhD from UC Santa Barbara. So my background 44 00:02:36,439 --> 00:02:39,159 is in philosophy. But the thing that happened to me 45 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,599 when I went to UC Santa Barbara was that I 46 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,639 met a lot of theists who were rigorous philosophers but 47 00:02:47,719 --> 00:02:51,840 at the same time applied that to their faith. And 48 00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:54,599 in my mind, for a number of years they were 49 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,800 just almost two separate domains, Like I did secular philosophy 50 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,039 and then I did biblical studies, and so to see 51 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:08,520 them bring together the two into analytic theology was really inspiring. 52 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:13,039 So I got my graduated, I worked as a professor 53 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,520 for a time at cal Poly a little bit, and 54 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,199 then also you see Santa Barbara, and then eventually we 55 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,919 found out we were adopting, so that kind of changed 56 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:24,759 the priorities. 57 00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:26,759 Speaker 4: And then I became a stay at. 58 00:03:26,599 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: Home dad to two young boys, and so yeah, so 59 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,479 now I'm getting a little bit more freedom. Yeah, they're 60 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,800 growing up, and so now I'm able to get back 61 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,719 in and do this as my primary way of teaching. 62 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,319 Speaker 3: So these challenging Old Testament passages probably don't seem that 63 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,319 hard after you know, caring for two young boys all 64 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:52,000 that time. 65 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,439 Speaker 2: Right, and the extra little layer was right when we 66 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,919 moved to be near Grandma and Anti and raise our boys, 67 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:02,240 the pandemic hit. 68 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:03,319 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 69 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 4: So I was raising. 70 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,319 Speaker 2: Two little boys who were very close in age, seventeen 71 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,560 months apart. During the pandemic, we we were just locked 72 00:04:11,599 --> 00:04:12,199 in the house. 73 00:04:12,439 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 3: You were quarantined. Wow. Yes, Yeah, So you have put 74 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:21,519 a significant amount of time into looking at these difficult 75 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,519 Old Testament passages, and we're talking a number of videos, 76 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,600 lengthy blog posts that are so helpful. I was just 77 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:34,800 curious what led you to decide that you really wanted 78 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:35,879 to zero in on that. 79 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 80 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:42,319 Speaker 2: So I was watching a video where Alex O'Connor was 81 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,000 interviewing William Lane Craig right. 82 00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 4: And I woke me from my dogmatic slumber. 83 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,959 Speaker 2: I heard some of the things Craig was saying, and 84 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,000 of course I have a ton of respect for him, 85 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,319 and sure I'm even reading and working on videos on 86 00:04:57,399 --> 00:05:01,519 his new systematic philosophical theology. I just sort of was 87 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:07,959 stunned by how his view seemed to neglect the moral 88 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:14,279 intuitions that Alex O'Connor kept bringing to him. And that 89 00:05:14,439 --> 00:05:16,800 was what got me thinking, wait a minute, there's there's 90 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,480 got to be a way of balancing both accounting for 91 00:05:19,519 --> 00:05:23,439 the moral intuitions but at the same time not letting 92 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,600 that completely drive the steer the ship. And so that 93 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,240 kind of got me thinking. Then I just bought like 94 00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:33,720 all the Biblical violence books or a large chunk of them, 95 00:05:33,759 --> 00:05:37,120 and listen to the podcasts and the videos and just 96 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,720 kind of and then did scripture and just kind of 97 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:41,920 deep dove into it. 98 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, well in case I forget, But at the end 99 00:05:45,319 --> 00:05:47,519 of the podcast, I want to make sure that you 100 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,240 put out there where everybody can find your stuff, because 101 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:53,560 it is it is exhaustive, and I mean that in 102 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,639 a great way, super helpful. And you know what I 103 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,800 love about your videos. And this is going to sound 104 00:06:00,079 --> 00:06:02,439 I hope this sounds like a compliment because I mean 105 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,879 it to be is. It's just you talking, and I 106 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,600 love that. It's just very straightforward, very clear, in depth, 107 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,959 and you make things accessible and so I can't I 108 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,720 can't recommend your stuff highly enough. 109 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much. 110 00:06:18,399 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: Yes, it's at Christian Philosophy Academy dot com and on 111 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,600 the blog which you're you're referencing, Chad, there are a 112 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,360 number of articles that go, as you mentioned, very in 113 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,279 depth on some of the things we'll touch on today. 114 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 3: Yes, So recently you had a debate with theologian Randall 115 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,720 Rouser on some of these difficult passages. And before we 116 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,759 get into I'm hoping to kind of hash out like 117 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,399 how his approach and your approach clash in a sense, 118 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,839 But just tell us a little bit about the debate. 119 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,720 For especially for I'm thinking of a listener who maybe 120 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,800 hasn't watched it yet. Kind of tell them what it 121 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,240 was about, and then maybe wet their appetite so they'll 122 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:04,480 go look it up and watch it. 123 00:07:05,199 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. 124 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:12,079 Speaker 2: So the debate was around the proposition that the Bible 125 00:07:12,959 --> 00:07:19,279 contains moral and theological errors due to the targeting of 126 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:25,160 noncombatants in these difficult Old Testament texts. So, as you 127 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,079 may be familiar, one of the important text is for 128 00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:32,680 Samuel fifteen, and there we get the message. 129 00:07:32,639 --> 00:07:33,439 Speaker 4: From the Lord. 130 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,439 Speaker 2: It says, this is what the Lord Almighty says, he's 131 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,199 going to punish the Amalekites. And then he goes on 132 00:07:39,279 --> 00:07:42,319 to say, do not spare them. Put to death men 133 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,319 and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. 134 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,120 So the question becomes, obviously, it's we have the intuition 135 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,759 that it's just wrong to kill infants and women and children, 136 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:01,600 noncombatants in war and so on. So how could this 137 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:07,519 square number one with a perfect God who's morally perfect, 138 00:08:07,639 --> 00:08:11,560 and then number two Jesus in particular, who tells us 139 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,360 to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek. 140 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:17,920 How how can we make sense of this if this 141 00:08:18,519 --> 00:08:21,160 God in the Old Testament is really the same God 142 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,759 as the God in the New Testament. 143 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:28,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really helpful. And so I've followed Dr Rowser's 144 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:32,519 work for some time and he puts forth what's called 145 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,440 providential in errancy theory. Am i am I getting that 146 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:37,799 correct errantism? 147 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, providential errancy theory. 148 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 149 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:43,039 Speaker 2: So it's it's like you can think of it like 150 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:47,120 God providentially allowed in errors errancy. 151 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,919 Speaker 3: Right, and those and those are for the purposes of teaching, right, 152 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,120 So God got So let me make sure I have 153 00:08:53,159 --> 00:08:56,039 it correct. And I have listened to a lot of 154 00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:58,120 your stuff. I've watched your debate with doctor Rowser a 155 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,480 couple of times, so hopefully I have this right at 156 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,120 this point. But so God providentially allows errors into the 157 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:11,240 text on the human author's part in order for pedagogical 158 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,840 or teaching purposes, correct, okay, okay. 159 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 2: And just as a slight philosophical background, Yeah, I found this. 160 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,480 I found this surprising. So maybe this will be rising 161 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:28,960 for some of our your listeners. But in particular, Rouser 162 00:09:29,279 --> 00:09:35,120 says that he embraces William Lang Craig's Mullinism, which is 163 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,679 a view called middle knowledge that God basically when he 164 00:09:38,799 --> 00:09:41,879 was creating the world had all these what they call 165 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:47,440 counterfactuals of creaturely freedom, and that's basically what people would 166 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,279 do if they were in certain situations. So for Rauser, 167 00:09:51,759 --> 00:09:56,440 God had regarding inspiration and the infallibility of the text. 168 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:01,720 God used his middle knowledge to sort of survey all 169 00:10:01,759 --> 00:10:06,200 the situations, and he fore knew the human writers of 170 00:10:06,279 --> 00:10:10,879 the Old Testament would project onto God things that aren't 171 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,159 actually of God. But in his wisdom, God chose to 172 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,440 allow that in to as you mentioned, for teaching purposes, 173 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,840 and to allow them to maybe even see what doesn't work. 174 00:10:23,919 --> 00:10:26,960 And ultimately the goal of this is to sort of 175 00:10:27,039 --> 00:10:31,559 drive everyone back to Christ. Okay, So that's his big, 176 00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:35,399 big thing is it's very much a chrystocentric hermutic. 177 00:10:35,919 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 3: Okay, So before we take a kind of zero in 178 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,879 more closely on kind of your struggles with his approach. 179 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,759 How does that contrast with how you address these passages? 180 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, thank you for asking. And that was 181 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,679 one of the things, as you mentioned, And when we 182 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,919 were talking, it wasn't until the very end of the 183 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,919 debate that we actually got my view on the table. 184 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,320 And it was one of those things I was like, Oh, 185 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:07,480 this is my last comment. Do I come, you know, 186 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:10,559 reply to everything Rouser just said, or do I finally 187 00:11:10,639 --> 00:11:13,080 just get it my view out there? 188 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,519 Speaker 3: No, I could tell. I could tell, like, I think 189 00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:19,080 you even said something like, oh so I'm just like 190 00:11:19,159 --> 00:11:21,679 kind of responding and then we're done. 191 00:11:23,159 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 4: I was sort of shocked. 192 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 3: I can tell. 193 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: I could tell, yeah, because he he originally said we 194 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:33,399 had a fixed timeline. Yeah, but Jordan the host, who 195 00:11:33,399 --> 00:11:37,080 did an excellent job hosting and summarizing the points, but 196 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,639 he originally said, we're gonna put Rouser's view out there, 197 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,879 You're going to raise some objections, then we're gonna put 198 00:11:42,919 --> 00:11:44,799 your view out there. Then he's going to raise some 199 00:11:45,639 --> 00:11:48,639 So it just the way it worked out, we didn't 200 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,080 even get to mine. So yeah, thank you for asking. 201 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:56,240 So where I start is The heart of what I 202 00:11:56,279 --> 00:12:00,600 call covenant virtue ethics is what does the Bible say. 203 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 4: About who God is? 204 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 2: And in particular, an important passage is Exodus thirty four, 205 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:12,519 and this is when God passes before Moses before reaffirming 206 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,200 the Covenant, after the Israelites had worshiped and made and 207 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,799 worshiped the Golden Calf, and Moses pleads spare them. So 208 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,919 he's before he renews the Covenant, he says, look, this 209 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,600 is who I am. And so he says, I'm loving, merciful, gracious, patient, faithful, 210 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,759 and just. And so that last thing is really important 211 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,759 because he also talks about innergenerational justice, judgment, and punishment, 212 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:48,200 and so that Christian are covenant virtue ethics basically kind 213 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,480 of takes that as a non negotiable. This is who 214 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,840 God says he is in scripture in a context, it's 215 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:59,840 very relevant to the conquest, namely the Covenant. And so 216 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:07,240 from there we have God's virtues grounding morality, grounding what's 217 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:12,360 morally good and right. And what God does with these 218 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,240 virtues is he in a particular situation. 219 00:13:16,919 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 4: There are things that call for various. 220 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: Responses, and so his target in responding in a given 221 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,799 situation is always good and because it reflects his perfect 222 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,399 virtuous nature his targets. But what he does do as 223 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,840 well is he accommodates people where they're at. So he 224 00:13:40,919 --> 00:13:44,960 will use a means or a mode that's familiar to them, 225 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,440 like amy warfare. That's what his people were doing and using, 226 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,279 so he will accommodate that, although he also tries to 227 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,480 improve as well. But that's sort of the big idea 228 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,600 is so given that we have to add for any 229 00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:05,960 of these difficult passages God, what was God aiming to 230 00:14:06,039 --> 00:14:09,600 do in this situation? What were the things he was 231 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:15,200 responding to, the reasons in play? And then how does 232 00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:19,639 this field or this domain of covenant really shape his 233 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,159 response or reaction in this given situation. Yeah, yeah, and 234 00:14:25,759 --> 00:14:28,320 just briefly when we see that when we when we 235 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,159 start there, then we see there really are no errors 236 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,799 in scripture. We don't have to posit errors because God 237 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,519 is responding faithfully to who He is in a difficult, 238 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:47,000 severe circumstance to bring about a good target, like to 239 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:51,200 fulfill his covenant promises. That's big reason why he took 240 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,879 the took the Israelites into the land of Canaan and 241 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:03,240 drove them out or actually exacting justice for longstanding unrepentant sin. 242 00:15:04,399 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 4: And so that's another piece. But that's a good target 243 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,639 that reflects his justice. 244 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: Faithfulness reflects him fulfilling his promises, being true to is 245 00:15:14,159 --> 00:15:15,039 who he says he is. 246 00:15:15,879 --> 00:15:17,919 Speaker 4: So that's kind of the big idea. 247 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: Okay, yes, yeah, and it's very clear. Thank you for 248 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,279 laying those two views out. So going back to and 249 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,639 we'll revisit covenant virtue ethics as well, but going back 250 00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:33,399 to doctor Rouser's view this providential air and see theory 251 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,600 if you will. One of the things you guys discussed, 252 00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:38,360 I don't know if I want to say clash that 253 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:42,480 might be the right word over was moral intuition and 254 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:48,919 how moral intuition should inform how we interpret it these texts. 255 00:15:49,159 --> 00:15:52,559 How do you view the role of moral intuition and 256 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:59,240 for example, biblical exegesis, especially concerning these morally challenging passages. 257 00:15:59,759 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question. 258 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:07,559 Speaker 2: I think intuition is a good starting point. If we 259 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:10,320 have the moral intuition that this seems wrong, that it 260 00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:14,360 just seems wrong to command killing children and infants, then 261 00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:18,000 that should, as Christians, give us pause and we should 262 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:22,200 say what is going on here and so, and we 263 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,399 should factor in our intuitions that should be part of 264 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,039 us wrestling with these texts like they have a certain weight. 265 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,519 At the same time, we need to contextualize things in 266 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:40,720 order to understand properly what's actually happening, and so we 267 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,879 can't simply And I think this is after having hashed 268 00:16:44,919 --> 00:16:48,960 through a lot of rouser stuff. I think primarily he 269 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:54,679 takes the text at face value, almost in a I 270 00:16:54,679 --> 00:16:57,240 don't want to say wood in literalistic sense, but that's 271 00:16:57,279 --> 00:16:59,279 kind of what it is. He just says, Look, the 272 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,039 text says kill infants, so baby killing must have been 273 00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:03,679 on the agenda. 274 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:06,279 Speaker 4: That must have been what God was commanding, kill all 275 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:06,839 the babies. 276 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,519 Speaker 2: And I want to say, whoa, whoa Are we understanding 277 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:16,599 this properly? And once you really dig into the context, 278 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,680 using even tools like hyperbole, merisms and so on, you 279 00:17:21,759 --> 00:17:25,160 start to get a clear picture for what God, given 280 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:31,000 his goodness, was actually trying to achieve through a very difficult, difficult, 281 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:38,359 unrepeatable situation in order to advance his redemptive purposes. So 282 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,519 it all is pointing toward Christ ultimately, and so our 283 00:17:43,559 --> 00:17:47,720 intuitions again just sort of get us going and our factors, 284 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:51,440 but they aren't the ultimate sort of trump card, if 285 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:51,839 you will. 286 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I hope listeners are getting the appreciating what 287 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,119 I was talking about about how doctor clus is able 288 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,599 to take these challenging concepts and make them very accessible 289 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,039 and understandable. I think that was a great example of that. 290 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,720 I have a question that I was hesitating to ask you, 291 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,039 not because I think it'll be challenging, but because I'm 292 00:18:12,039 --> 00:18:14,119 afraid I will sound foolish. But I'm going to go 293 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,680 ahead and throw it out there anyway. As I've listened 294 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,799 to doctor Rouser in the past, for example, I know 295 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:21,960 I'm not sure when it was, but I listened to 296 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,960 a discussion he had with doctor Copan on these difficult 297 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,200 passages as well, and I mentioned we've had doctor Copan 298 00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:31,359 on the podcast to talk about these one of the things. 299 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,319 And I'm not quite sure how I want to articulate this, 300 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,519 but one of the things I struggle with with this 301 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,960 idea of the moral intuition is I agree with you 302 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,279 that it's a great starting point. I was listening to 303 00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:43,279 one of your videos earlier today and I thought, wow, 304 00:18:43,319 --> 00:18:45,200 that's a great way of putting it. It's like it 305 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,440 should be a great starting point, and if our moral 306 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,279 intuition says, uh, that doesn't seem right, then we shouldn't 307 00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:53,880 ignore that. I thought that was really good. But at 308 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,319 the same time, I'm almost worried, and you might be 309 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,000 able to clear this up for me about like a 310 00:18:59,079 --> 00:19:03,880 chicken and egg problem in the sense of should our 311 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,599 moral intuitions shape the way we interpret scripture or should 312 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,799 scripture shape our moral intuitions. 313 00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 4: Oh, that's a great question. 314 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 3: Okay, So that doesn't sounds as foolish as I was 315 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,119 worried that it would. Is that what you're saying. 316 00:19:20,519 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 2: No, I think so you're asking, like, look, we have 317 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:29,519 these intuitions, and should they have the capacity and ability 318 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:35,039 to change the way we interpret scripture or should scripture 319 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,400 you know, sort of change our intuitions. 320 00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's a great question. That's why you're the philosopher. 321 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,119 You put that much better than me. 322 00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: For me, I think what we do is we try 323 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:57,039 to create a match between our intuitions and principles, normative principles, 324 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:00,880 and try to align them. But we don't just stop there. 325 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:06,359 We also look at the bigger picture. So sometimes when 326 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,039 we look at the bigger picture, our intuitions might change. 327 00:20:10,559 --> 00:20:13,920 We might say, oh, I thought that passage was saying this, 328 00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:16,640 but it's not really saying this. So even though I'm 329 00:20:16,799 --> 00:20:19,440 having the intuition this is morally wrong, that was sort 330 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,920 of based on a misunderstanding of the text or a 331 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,480 partial understanding of the text. And then I do think 332 00:20:25,599 --> 00:20:28,960 other times we can have you know, we can have 333 00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:32,960 our intuitions, and that can actually shape how we read scripture. 334 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,279 Speaker 4: So I think that I don't think it's like a. 335 00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 2: Dichotomy and there are two mutually exclusive alternatives. I think 336 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,640 it can be an important dance, and especially when you 337 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,480 factor in the context, which is sort of the background. 338 00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:53,039 Speaker 3: So it could be you're saying that in a sense, 339 00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:56,960 it's a both and it's not a neither or correct. Okay, okay, 340 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,799 because I guess my concern is, and if this is 341 00:20:59,839 --> 00:21:03,200 going to off path, please let me know. My concern 342 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,960 would be is if my like, let's imagine like we're 343 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,759 our moral intuitions are are very much shaped by our 344 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:14,079 modern sensibilities, the environment we grew up in. All of 345 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,759 those things informed those right. I mean, God's written the 346 00:21:16,799 --> 00:21:19,079 law in our heart, But at the same time, there's 347 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:24,319 factors that influence it as well. So my fear or 348 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,359 worry it would be that we would have a tendency 349 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:35,079 to almost if we're if moral intuitions are solely the 350 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,319 way that we or strongly the way that we interpret scripture, 351 00:21:38,599 --> 00:21:41,960 it's almost like we're reading scripture into our own image 352 00:21:42,319 --> 00:21:45,759 in a sense. So let me explain, like with an example. 353 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,599 So let's say that I have a very good friend 354 00:21:48,599 --> 00:21:53,359 who is in a homosexual relationship, right, and I love 355 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,319 this person, care about them very much, and yet I 356 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,640 read in scripture that that is something that God forbids. Right, Well, 357 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,240 my moral intuition or or my gut, you know, it's 358 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:08,680 it's hard for me to adhere to that. So it's 359 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,039 almost like I try to interpret that text in a 360 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:14,319 way that makes me more comfortable, if that makes sense, 361 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,079 or maybe I'm not understanding moral tuition properly. 362 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 2: Intuition properly, Okay, So tell me if I'm getting it 363 00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:22,759 right or wrong. Yeah, you have a friend who's in 364 00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:27,839 a homosexual relationship. You read scripture it says just kind 365 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,839 of reading off the surface, off the page, it seems 366 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,799 condemned or like it's a sin, right, and then what's 367 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,000 the intuition though. 368 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 3: So I'm imagining that my intuition because of the way 369 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,119 it's been shaped. It's it's like my intuition would be, Oh, 370 00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:44,720 I don't want that to be wrong. I don't. I 371 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:47,759 don't want that to be a sin ice, you see 372 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:52,200 what I'm saying, because of my personal connection to this person, right, 373 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,559 And so if I'm not if I'm not willing to 374 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,559 use proper exegesis and to understand that passage and the 375 00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:03,119 contact it was written and to say, Okay, my moral 376 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,720 intuitions are my starting point, but scripture's got to be 377 00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,920 the final authority. It could lead me into error, is 378 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:09,519 my concern. 379 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:10,319 Speaker 4: I see. 380 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: Okay, so you're worried about you get in there. You 381 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,039 do the ex to Jesus, either partially or in a 382 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:22,200 biased way, and perhaps you're motivated to get a certain outcome. 383 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,720 And let's say you do the ex of Jesus and 384 00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:30,640 you realize that on the surface it's saying that homosexual 385 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,839 relations are wrong, but as you go deeper, you realize 386 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,440 it's not. But maybe in fact you're getting it wrong right, 387 00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:43,160 and you're just sort of making the text match your intuition, right, 388 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:44,880 Is that sort of the worry? 389 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 3: Yeah? 390 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think that is 391 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,200 that is a legitimate worry. One thing you really have 392 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,640 to worry about is the amount of subjectivity you're allowing 393 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,279 to creep in to how you're reading scripture. And we 394 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,039 all have to battle this, right, sure, but a view 395 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:12,119 that makes intuition primary really has to battle this. And 396 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,599 then not only that, but a view like Rousers that 397 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,839 says we're going to use intuition not just just to 398 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,160 get an interpretation, but to actually find errors in the text. Okay, 399 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:24,599 then you really have to make sure you have a 400 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,119 strong grounding for intuition and its reliability. 401 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and my. 402 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:34,319 Speaker 2: Claim is intuition can't bear that burden. Intuition can take 403 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,720 us so far, but ultimately we need to look at 404 00:24:36,759 --> 00:24:40,440 things like archaeology. We need to look at you know, 405 00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:44,759 biblical textual analysis, We need to look at like some 406 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:50,000 of the more objective features of interpretation in order to 407 00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:52,799 not just if we're doing this with intuition, not just 408 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,400 to sort of try to get out of our studies. 409 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,160 What makes us feel better? 410 00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 3: Yes, you've brought that around perfectly perfect good okay, yeah, yeah, 411 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,880 that's a legitimate worry. Yeah, Okay, Now I want to 412 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,720 ask one more question about one of the issues that 413 00:25:09,759 --> 00:25:12,200 you guys clashed about, and then I really want to 414 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,960 get into your view because number one, I find it persuasive. 415 00:25:16,759 --> 00:25:19,480 In number two, you really, as we've mentioned a couple 416 00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:20,960 of times, didn't get a chance to kind of lay 417 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,440 it out there, and I want listeners to be able 418 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,799 to hear that. So another issue that came about that 419 00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:27,920 I thought was fascinating and I've heard you discuss it 420 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,200 in another one of your videos outside of the debate, 421 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:35,359 was this idea that your concern that when doctor Rouser 422 00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:40,680 uses Jesus and his interpretation of Jesus as a tool 423 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,720 to interpret these Old Testament passages, that that also is 424 00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:49,440 a bit of a concern, and you also even charged 425 00:25:49,519 --> 00:25:51,839 him against it it possibly being I'm not sure if 426 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,359 it was self defeating or or undermining his own point 427 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,680 or something to that effect. Could you unpack that a 428 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:58,799 little bit, Yeah. 429 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,839 Speaker 2: It was the epistemic circle gularity objection. Yes, so that's 430 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,039 kind of a fancy term, but basically it means it 431 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,720 actually sort of dovetails perfectly off what I was just saying, Like, 432 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,920 if you're going to use intuition in this way to 433 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,359 strung as a strong way of making sense of scripture 434 00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:23,960 and finding errors in the text. Then you need to 435 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,799 have a epistemically solid foundation from which you can be 436 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:36,519 doing this. And so one thing that Rouser does with 437 00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:40,319 what he calls a Jesus principle is he sort of 438 00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:45,319 reads a passage, checks his moral intuition, and then tries 439 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,359 to align that with Well, in the New Testament, what 440 00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:52,599 do we see regarding Jesus, Well, we see a lot 441 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,359 of non violent teachings, like what I said sort of 442 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,680 at the start, and so Rouser actually he makes the 443 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,640 point sort of viscerally too. Sometimes he says, could you 444 00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:08,000 imagine Jesus sort of sticking a spear into a baby? 445 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,559 Speaker 4: Like he says stuff like. 446 00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 3: That, right, yes, yes, I've heard that. 447 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, And you're like, whoa, No, it's. 448 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,519 Speaker 3: Very rhetorically powerful, yes. 449 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: Rhetorically powerful, yes, yes, And so okay, that's fine, that's powerful. 450 00:27:24,039 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 4: Not denying that. We should take that in. 451 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: And if infants were killed, this is the other part 452 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,039 of my view. If infants were killed, albeit as a 453 00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:37,960 foreseen side effect of the primary target God was aiming for, 454 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,720 which was good and aligned with his character, then that's tragic. 455 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,200 So I acknowledge the tragedy of non combatant deaths. My 456 00:27:47,319 --> 00:27:50,640 main point is that God is not intending those deaths 457 00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:54,759 as the primary target. But if what winds up happening 458 00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:59,519 with Rauser is because he sees air, because this doesn't 459 00:27:59,559 --> 00:28:03,119 match up with who Jesus is. A perfectly morally good 460 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,400 God wouldn't command these horrible things. 461 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 4: This looks like genocide. 462 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,079 Speaker 2: What he then does is he uses again his interpretation 463 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:20,000 of Jesus that's very nonviolent. He doesn't really include a 464 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,839 lot of the harshness and the judgment that we see 465 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:27,319 in the New Testament from Jesus, and then he basically uses. 466 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 4: That to find the years. 467 00:28:28,519 --> 00:28:31,759 Speaker 2: Well, the worry is, you have to assume the tool 468 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,119 is reliable in order for the tool to determine whether 469 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,680 the very thing you're using. 470 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:38,759 Speaker 4: It from is reliable. 471 00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:43,799 Speaker 2: So let me say that in another way, you Rosser 472 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,319 want wants to use the portrayal of Jesus in the 473 00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:51,720 New Testament as his controlled texts or his guide to 474 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,799 whether he's getting an interpretation right or wrong. Where do 475 00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:59,400 we learn about Jesus from the New Testament? Okay, but 476 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,720 then how can we be sure that the New Testament 477 00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:07,240 portrayals of Jesus, even the harsh ones are not just 478 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,279 also distorted by human projection. 479 00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 4: I mean, maybe the. 480 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 2: New Testament authors were putting things in Jesus's mouth that 481 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,799 he didn't actually say. Why Because Rouser's let in that 482 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:21,960 there can be errors in the text, So this becomes 483 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:22,480 a live. 484 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 3: Possibility, right, yes, and correct me if I'm wrong here. 485 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:30,039 It seemed to me. And again, you know you're talking 486 00:29:30,319 --> 00:29:34,480 full disclosure here. I am an elementary school teacher who 487 00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:37,759 does apologetics as a passion, you know, so I'm not 488 00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:40,119 a philosopher, so I could be totally missing this. But 489 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,400 it seemed to me I thought that doctor Rouser was 490 00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:47,119 missing your point because your point was is on your view, 491 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:50,519 correct me if I'm wrong here? On his view there 492 00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:54,200 are errors in the text, you were saying on my view, 493 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,319 because he was trying to say that you're just, as 494 00:29:56,599 --> 00:29:59,279 you know, prone to this as he is, because both 495 00:29:59,279 --> 00:30:01,880 of you have to interpret the text. But I didn't 496 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,079 think that was your point. Your point was to say that, 497 00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:07,440 but on your view, there aren't errors in the text. 498 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:08,079 Speaker 4: Correct. 499 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you can say that when I'm operating from 500 00:30:13,839 --> 00:30:16,599 interpreting using the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament, 501 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,279 or whatever it is. I'm coming at it from the 502 00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:22,119 view that that scripture is an errant. But when you 503 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,839 introduce the idea of error, how do you how can 504 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,960 you have any inclination that your interpretation of Jesus is 505 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:33,119 correct because it could be an error? Is that right? 506 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 4: Yes? 507 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,799 Speaker 2: And then and then the bigger yes, that's the starting point. 508 00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:40,200 And then the circularity is you're you have to then 509 00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:43,519 to use that tool even though it could be an error. 510 00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 4: You have to assume it's not an. 511 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 3: Error to use it, right, right, Otherwise. 512 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 2: You're using a broken tool to try to fix a 513 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,680 broken problem or sort o a broken problem. 514 00:30:53,839 --> 00:30:56,559 Speaker 3: Right. And even if we're not agreeing that it is 515 00:30:56,599 --> 00:30:58,839 a broken tool, it's at least on his view a 516 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,119 potentially or a possibly broken tool, which is which is 517 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,160 the problem? Right? 518 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: And I understanding you need it, Yeah, so you need 519 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,400 he needs whatever his interpretation of Jesus is. He needs 520 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:17,519 a very solid basis for that portrayal, and maybe he 521 00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:22,200 could give it. Look, look, the the Gospels are uniquely reliable. 522 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:25,720 They always got Jesus right or you know, got Jesus 523 00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:28,160 right on the main thing. So all these teachings I'm 524 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,400 using as my control texts, whatever they are, whatever parts 525 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:36,599 you know, the turn the other cheek and and all 526 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,759 the more nonviolent stuff. Jesus says that they got right, 527 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:44,079 and so I can have trust and faith in that 528 00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:47,000 in order to use it to sort out the rest 529 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,480 of scripture, whether it's an error or not. But my 530 00:31:50,599 --> 00:31:53,319 point was he hasn't provided that, and he's still, to 531 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,920 my knowledge, hasn't really given a sufficient answer for this 532 00:31:58,039 --> 00:31:59,079 circularity problem. 533 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, that's helpful. That's helpful. So let's turn to 534 00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:07,960 covenant virtue ethics here. Let's consider a passage like I 535 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,960 think the best way I was thinking about this today 536 00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:12,319 earlier today, kind of the best way to help our 537 00:32:12,359 --> 00:32:15,559 listeners kind of get a grasp of this is to 538 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:18,759 take a passage like you mentioned for Samuel fifteen, And 539 00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:21,519 that's one of the more like graphic you know, the women, 540 00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:25,559 the babies, you know, take them all out of course, 541 00:32:25,559 --> 00:32:30,480 paraphrasing there. How does your view address a difficult passage 542 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:30,799 like that? 543 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, so thank you for asking about that. And for 544 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:41,079 Samuel fifteen primarily focuses on Saul's disobedience regarding Amelek. 545 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 4: Now, the first thing. 546 00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:46,279 Speaker 2: We ask when we're evaluating this through the covenant virtue 547 00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:52,240 ethics framework is what was the covenantal context? So the 548 00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:57,839 command regarding Amlek and for Samuel fifteen occurred within what 549 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,480 I call the field or the domain. You can think 550 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,039 of it like the playing field where the action occurs. 551 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:09,319 And it was Israel's early monarchy, and God was ultimately 552 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,000 testing King Saul's obedience and faithfulness within that covenant structure, 553 00:33:14,519 --> 00:33:20,279 the mosaic covenant, and Saul as acting explicitly also as 554 00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:25,519 God's agent. Now what within this context, this field, what's 555 00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,240 the basis? Now, that's basically the reasons for God acting, 556 00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:36,240 and so the basis is God's long standing to creed 557 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,079 judgment against Amelek. This goes all the way back to 558 00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:45,359 Exodus seventeen when they attacked the Israelites when they were 559 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:50,559 weak and coming out of slavery. And so we have 560 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,119 to ask what was the purpose there? 561 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,599 Speaker 4: Well, he said. 562 00:33:53,559 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 2: Back then, I'm going to blot out the memory of Amelek. 563 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,160 So this wasn't like in first Samuel fifteen. This isn't 564 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,039 like a rash off the cuff. God's just vengeful and 565 00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:08,519 all of a sudden prone to anger. This is a 566 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,360 sort of a long time coming judgment that is reaching 567 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:17,239 its coming to fruition, and then we have to ask 568 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,280 the second stage is the character, like, what is the 569 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:28,440 intended target God's trying to hit. Well, it's a retributive 570 00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:33,800 punishment given the basis, given the attack they did on 571 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:36,960 Israel when they were coming out of Egypt. 572 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,159 Speaker 4: This is a retributive. 573 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,079 Speaker 2: Judgment against Amelek and a demonstration of his faithfulness to 574 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:48,920 his prior word. So God gave his word. He's going 575 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,320 to blot out Amelek and make them pay for what 576 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,760 they did to Israel at a very crucial weak point. 577 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,880 And so this is partially God. His character is hitting 578 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:04,480 target of faithfulness. Now the command mode, this is really important. 579 00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:10,559 The mode or the means is herrim, and that's a 580 00:35:10,599 --> 00:35:15,440 fancy word that's often translated as total devotion to destruction. 581 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,880 And what God is signaling by using this harrim mode 582 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,880 is complete judgment. So you need to separate everything from 583 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,559 the profane. You're going to dedicate everything to me and 584 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:35,039 you're going to leave no room for human profit or compromise. 585 00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:39,679 And remember the big picture is testing Saul. Will he 586 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,679 be faithful to my word? Next we look at the 587 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,599 means end relationship. So what does that mean? Well, the 588 00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:52,840 text presents that hairim mode that herrim means, as the 589 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:59,159 necessary and commanded means to achieve that target of definitive 590 00:35:59,159 --> 00:36:05,880 divine judgment and separation from this persistent enemy against Israel. Now, Saul, 591 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:10,519 of course, maybe, as you know, disobeyed God. He's spared 592 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:14,840 a gag and the best of the livestock. And why 593 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,000 was this a failure? Well, Saul used a different mode. 594 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,800 God commanded use the mode of herrim, devote everything to 595 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,000 total destruction. And Saul thought, you know what I know better, 596 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,199 I'm gonna spare the king and I'm gonna you know, 597 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,159 God's gonna love this, and then I'm gonna devote to 598 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,199 him the. 599 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,639 Speaker 4: Livestock and da da da. 600 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 2: But that's within covenant virtue ethics, we can see why 601 00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:43,800 that's a problem. He's using a different mode, driven by 602 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:49,079 a different target. Those Saul's target doesn't align with God's target. 603 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,320 Why Well, Saul was swayed by his people to do this, 604 00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:59,639 and it was likely Saul's self glory, perceived economic benefits, 605 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,519 or misplaced piety in wanting, you know, to give God sacrifices. 606 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:10,840 So basically that substitution breaks the men means in linked 607 00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:14,480 that God specified in the divine command when he actually 608 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:18,960 gave the command hit this target. Faithfulness to my word 609 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,840 and long standing judgment through herm sall comes along uses 610 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,360 a different means to hit a different target. So now 611 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,920 we can look and we can see, well, but wait 612 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,519 a minute, isn't her rim really brutal? Isn't this like, 613 00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:41,800 you know, just totally disproportionate, or isn't that of the 614 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,039 killing of innocence as the target? 615 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 4: And there's a lot I could. 616 00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 2: Say there, but let me just briefly say sort of 617 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,840 the big takeaway. The big takeaway is that it was 618 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:59,079 proportional and God did minimize harm, but at the same time, 619 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:06,559 it wasn't the target. So the Harim mode wasn't God 620 00:38:06,679 --> 00:38:10,719 saying this is my target killing babies, qua billing killing 621 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,960 babies or something like that, or like killing children to 622 00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:19,159 killing to kill children is somehow like what I'm trying 623 00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:23,840 to achieve. No, God was working within this very harsh environment, 624 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,400 working with a mode they understood and knew, and he 625 00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:31,480 was trying to achieve a good target. Now on covenant 626 00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:36,199 virtue ethics, he foresaw that there would be innocence killed, 627 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:42,320 but that wasn't his primary target. And ultimately, the last 628 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,000 thing we can ask with Covenant virtue ethics is is 629 00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:48,679 this hitting the long term te loss or end of 630 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,679 God's redemptive plan that he's working. 631 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 3: Is real long term purpose, right right, right right? 632 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 2: And so hitting that target of executing judgment on Amelek 633 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,519 using the Harim mode serves his broader tilS by establishing 634 00:39:05,679 --> 00:39:15,320 boundaries against forces persistently opposing his redemptive plan and reinforcing 635 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:21,239 this is the takeaway for all the kings, the necessity 636 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,800 of complete obedience for the covenant people and their king. 637 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,360 And then Saul's failure basically underscores the importance of aligning 638 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:38,599 with God's target and mode over having like human rationalizations 639 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,079 or ritual substitutions. 640 00:39:41,519 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 4: And so that's that's the big picture of how CVE 641 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:46,679 would handle this. 642 00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:51,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is very helpful, very helpful. And now, now 643 00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:54,400 what role does hyperbole play in your view? Kind of 644 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,920 the ancient the ancient near Eastern hyperbole if you could 645 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,280 just explain what that is to the listener and then 646 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,519 kind of what role it plays in your view. 647 00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for asking. 648 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 2: That's this is a really important point, and I think 649 00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:09,639 this was something that because my view didn't get fully 650 00:40:09,679 --> 00:40:10,239 on the table. 651 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,599 Speaker 4: I think Randall missed this in our debate. 652 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 2: But that's why I put out other videos and I 653 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,440 try to, you know, kind of get my view more 654 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,039 so on the table. With First Samuel fifteen, in particular, 655 00:40:22,639 --> 00:40:28,519 we see a merorism that is a standard rhetorical device 656 00:40:29,199 --> 00:40:32,519 that was common in these times, in the ancient Near 657 00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:38,360 East and in particular in warfare, that signaled a totality 658 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,800 by just simply mentioning pairs of contrasting opposites. So, for instance, 659 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,400 in First Samuel fifteen, we have you know the target. 660 00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:53,239 The command says to target men, women, children, and infants, 661 00:40:53,519 --> 00:40:56,360 young and old or you know any So that what 662 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,599 that is expressing is on the coven virtue ethics isn't 663 00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:07,239 a literal commanded hit list. It's not God saying you 664 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,800 need to go in and kill all the babies, you 665 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,920 need to go in and kill all What it's doing 666 00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:15,039 in that contest is saying this is a total judgment. 667 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,599 And so what that is doing in covenant virtue ethics 668 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:26,400 is it's not the target, right, So what this is 669 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,159 is it's part of the mode. So it's using this 670 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,920 rhetoric that would have been understood in those times to 671 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,880 communicate definitive judgment. It isn't the target, it's the mode, 672 00:41:39,119 --> 00:41:42,960 and it's not a definitive like I say, like you've 673 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,360 got to wipe out all these demographics. Now, Rouser actually 674 00:41:48,119 --> 00:41:53,199 just sort of takes the text to face value and says, look, 675 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:59,280 this is what it is, or he confuses the laying 676 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,079 out of these rorisms this rhetorical device as like, like 677 00:42:03,159 --> 00:42:06,199 I said, like a targeted hit list God saying literally 678 00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:08,519 go in and kill the infants, kill the children, kill 679 00:42:08,559 --> 00:42:12,400 the data DA and that's his target. Well, and Covenant 680 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,360 virtue ethics says, that's not his target. That wouldn't align 681 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,960 with his good character. And so this is just the 682 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,400 mode by which he's doing this. And he foresees that 683 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,079 some non combatants will be killed, but that's not that's 684 00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:31,079 not what he's saying here in this this command, right. 685 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, And in regard to hyperbole, the example that I've 686 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,719 heard doctor Coopen use just for clarity for listeners and 687 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,360 see if you agree with this. For example, when the 688 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,880 Bible might say something along along the lines of like 689 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,000 wipe them all out, just generically, right, it's kind of 690 00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:49,000 like the modern equivalent of like the I don't know, 691 00:42:49,039 --> 00:42:51,519 I don't watch a ton of I watch hockey, So 692 00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:56,639 I'll say that, you know, the oilers annihilated the Kings, 693 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,559 right well, they nobody thinks they really annihilated them, like 694 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:03,679 there's dead people out on the ice. It just means 695 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,079 they beat them really badly. It's it's a totality. Right well. 696 00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:10,039 Speaker 4: So, actually this is where I differ with Copan. 697 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 3: Oh okay, well I'm glad I mentioned that. Yeah, I'm glad. 698 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you said that, because I saw the debate. 699 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,920 I watched this several times between him and Rouser, and 700 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,079 Rouser's response is going to be, h are you saying 701 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,559 no noncombatants were killed? That this is like like so 702 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,920 much hyperbole that like no innocence were caught up and 703 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,039 killed in the battle. 704 00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:40,639 Speaker 3: You know what a is you're saying that? Sorry, sorry, 705 00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:43,519 real quick as you're saying that, that is refreshing my 706 00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:47,360 memory of doctor Copin had to work very hard in 707 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,320 that debate to try to demonstrate that that totally refreshed. Yes, 708 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:52,880 go ahead, I'm sorry. 709 00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 4: It Actually I'm glad you said that. 710 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,760 Speaker 2: It's actually a little bit worse because he seemed to 711 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,440 avoid it because I'll start kept pressing up on that way. 712 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,039 Speaker 4: You say, are you using hyperbole. 713 00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:09,440 Speaker 2: To say no non combatants were killed? And he as 714 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,639 best I remember, he sort of went on to something 715 00:44:12,679 --> 00:44:15,519 else and didn't fully address it. And I want to 716 00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:19,840 offer coopana tool. I want to say, you've got the tool. 717 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,760 I mean, he's done so much work, and I really 718 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,360 respect all he's done, but I think he just needs 719 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:31,239 to situate it properly within the mode and say no. 720 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,199 I'm not saying no when I use hyperbole or merisms. 721 00:44:35,199 --> 00:44:37,519 I'm not saying no non combatants were killed. 722 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,679 Speaker 4: For all I know they were. We don't know. 723 00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:44,679 Speaker 2: You know, this isn't like precise military reports or something 724 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:46,440 like in a modern sense. 725 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:48,800 Speaker 4: I'm not saying there were none killed. 726 00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 2: What I am saying is that they weren't intentionally targeted 727 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,039 because that wasn't the target. That was the mode by 728 00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:58,440 which God was hitting the target, but it wasn't the 729 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,920 target itself. Innocence, we're not being targeted as an end 730 00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:04,119 in themselves. 731 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,159 Speaker 4: So that's the important. 732 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,599 Speaker 2: Thing, because if you don't situate hyperbole properly in the 733 00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:15,320 mode in the harim and put it to work, then 734 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,920 what you wind up and say it's not an intentional 735 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,199 targeting of non combatants, then you're just sort of left 736 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,840 with like having to say, no, no non combatants were 737 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,920 killed because of this hyperbole, and that just seems like, 738 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,639 on the face of it, really problematic and unlikely given 739 00:45:33,679 --> 00:45:36,239 the brutal nature of any warfare. 740 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I'm recalling now too that he tried 741 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,039 to argue that only military outposts were hit and that 742 00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:48,280 non combatants would have been gone by then or something. 743 00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:50,079 Speaker 4: And just on that point, that's a great point. 744 00:45:50,119 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 2: He uses Richard Hess's reading of that, and that I 745 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,840 think is really important because it tells us that this 746 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:03,920 isn't a genocide, This isn't like just mass slaughter of 747 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,920 indiscriminate slaughter of everyone, right, right, So it was targeted, 748 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,000 it had a good military The mode itself was was, 749 00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:18,599 you know, using good military means to hit this broader 750 00:46:18,679 --> 00:46:22,519 target that God is trying to hit. But even so, 751 00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:25,760 here's the problem though, even if you say military fort 752 00:46:26,159 --> 00:46:29,440 then Rouser comes back and says, wait a minute, Rayhab was. 753 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 4: There and her family. 754 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 2: And then and then Rouser says, well, that just shows 755 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,239 that there were some noncombatants in this sportified city, and 756 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,079 I would add there must have been more to support 757 00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:46,000 the functioning of the city. I mean, I'm sure a 758 00:46:46,039 --> 00:46:47,960 lot of the military did a lot of things, but 759 00:46:48,039 --> 00:46:50,760 it's not I would be shocked if Rayhab was the 760 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:55,159 only non military personnel in this fort city. So then 761 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,079 it's very becomes very likely that some non combatants were killed. 762 00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:01,960 And that's still a problem. And that's where I think 763 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,599 Copan's view doesn't go far enough and acknowledge, Yeah, this 764 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,199 happened probably, and this is horrible, and that's what covenant 765 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,159 virtue ethics acknowledges. This probably happened. 766 00:47:14,199 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 4: It was horrible. 767 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,079 Speaker 2: God foresaw it what happen, But he had good targets 768 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:24,679 that ultimately using this means necessitated this this way of 769 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,480 operating in order to communicate his definitive judgment, in order 770 00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:33,760 to enact his definitive judgment, in order to make a statement, Hey, 771 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,559 you got to follow what I'm saying. 772 00:47:35,639 --> 00:47:37,280 Speaker 4: You can't like make up your own. 773 00:47:37,159 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 2: Script here when I give you explicit command for my profit. 774 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:41,599 Speaker 4: Right. 775 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,360 Speaker 3: I'm so glad I brought that up because that was 776 00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:49,199 that was great, That was super helpful what you shared there. 777 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:53,480 In response to that praise the Lord. That was great. 778 00:47:54,159 --> 00:47:56,519 So let me see if you agree with this statement. 779 00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,199 And then I have just like a couple like one 780 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,480 kind of a question about your approach when you approach 781 00:48:04,559 --> 00:48:08,039 other views that differ from your own. Would you say 782 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:14,000 that the reason the key difference between your view and 783 00:48:14,119 --> 00:48:17,960 doctor Rowser's view and trying to reconcile these texts is 784 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:24,599 that your view preserves God's good moral character without having 785 00:48:24,679 --> 00:48:31,039 to introduce errors into the text, whereas Rowser's view preserves 786 00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:35,920 God's good moral character but introduces errors into the text. 787 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,199 And therefore years would be at least on that for 788 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,199 that one reason, yours should be preferred. 789 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:46,199 Speaker 4: Correct. That's an excellent yes, okay, excellent clear statement. 790 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,039 Speaker 3: Yep, okay, all right. So one of the things that 791 00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:52,039 attracted me to your work even before you started doing 792 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,760 the work that you're doing on these difficult old Testament 793 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,159 passages is the way you engage with people, particularly on 794 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,840 social media. I'm thinking here of X on X. Even 795 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,199 in these videos response videos that you've done with doctor Rouser, 796 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,760 you go out of your way to be charitable, to 797 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,079 call him a brother, to thank him for engaging with 798 00:49:13,159 --> 00:49:16,480 your work. And I find that to be something in 799 00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:21,199 some apologetic circles, if I'm being honest, is lacking. And 800 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:27,559 I love your demeanor, your charitability, and your willingness to 801 00:49:27,679 --> 00:49:31,360 engage with other views so respectfully and to even I 802 00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,440 could even tell during the debate that there were a 803 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,639 couple things doctor Rouser said that surprised you, For example, 804 00:49:36,679 --> 00:49:39,360 that he was a divine command theorist, and I could 805 00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,559 tell that that surprised you, and you said, I really 806 00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:44,480 want to hear more about that, and I could tell 807 00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:48,239 you meant that like you really wanted to get him, 808 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,159 And to me, that's just rare. So how do you 809 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:58,000 encourage other thinkers, apologists, Christian philosophers, whatever their stripes might be, 810 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,519 how do you encourage them to engage age in these 811 00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:03,199 types of discussion in the manner that you do. 812 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:05,000 Speaker 4: Well. 813 00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:08,159 Speaker 2: First, I have to just I say thank you, and 814 00:50:08,199 --> 00:50:12,679 I'm glad that that you've noticed that, because I'm very 815 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,599 much trying to aim for that in where it comes 816 00:50:16,599 --> 00:50:21,480 from is both my past failures and wanting to represent 817 00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:26,199 Christ well, not just by quote unquote defending the truth, 818 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,239 but how I defend the truth? Am I defending the 819 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:34,079 truth in a loving way? Am I really trying to 820 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,280 seek the truth? In an honest and open way. And 821 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,119 I in my background doing philosophy, I have made so 822 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:49,880 many mistakes where I got heated and I was coming 823 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:51,880 at it for the wrong reasons, and I was trying 824 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:57,000 to score points. And through many many seasons of doing 825 00:50:57,039 --> 00:51:00,599 that and realizing that is definitely not the best approach, 826 00:51:01,679 --> 00:51:05,320 and then coming back to my faith, which happened many 827 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,320 many years ago, but that was also a big thing. 828 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:14,880 I realized, you know, I'm not trying to win anything here. 829 00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:19,880 I'm trying to get people to think. I'm trying to 830 00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,559 explore truth in a in a posture of humility. And 831 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,280 I would what I would say to others that are 832 00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,360 struggling with that, and just feel like you got to 833 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,159 win the point and do it in a way that 834 00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,320 kind of almost puts the other person down or snarky. 835 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:40,400 Speaker 4: And you don't have to do that. You can. 836 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:46,079 Speaker 2: You have everything you need in Jesus. We are full 837 00:51:46,519 --> 00:51:49,760 and complete in Jesus. You don't have to get anyone's 838 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:55,000 approval other than God ultimately, and I struggle with seeking 839 00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:58,519 human approval as well. But you can just speak the 840 00:51:58,559 --> 00:52:02,920 truth and love, and when you do that, then you'll 841 00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,920 find you go way further in the dialogue, and you 842 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,480 make friends along the way. So, for instance, I debated 843 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:17,159 Justin Sheeber, who is an atheist, and I seriously feel 844 00:52:17,199 --> 00:52:19,559 like he's a good friend of mine for as much 845 00:52:19,599 --> 00:52:25,840 as we've talked. And right, yep, yeah, And then and 846 00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,760 my discussion with Randall Rausser could have really gone sideways 847 00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:33,719 because we both care, we're both passionate about our position, 848 00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:37,880 and it's a very heated issue and very important issues. 849 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,800 So I just praise God that I was able, we 850 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,840 both were able to maintain our posture of humility and 851 00:52:46,559 --> 00:52:49,000 seeking the truth in love. And I would say, don't 852 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,440 beat yourself up if you're an apologist who's made those mistakes. 853 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,519 You're in good company from so many others. But just strive, 854 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,719 strive to be open, strive to ask questions, strive to 855 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:08,559 seek understanding, and ultimately strive to represent Christ well by 856 00:53:08,679 --> 00:53:12,920 how you search for the truth, not just that you 857 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:13,920 search for the truth. 858 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,039 Speaker 3: Thank you. That was very well put, and just thanks 859 00:53:16,039 --> 00:53:19,679 for being a great example. I really appreciate it. So 860 00:53:20,119 --> 00:53:24,039 I'm imagining here somebody listening, and if anything, I hope 861 00:53:24,039 --> 00:53:27,239 we've piqued their interest in this topic, or maybe they 862 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,079 struggle with this topic and they're thinking, Wow, this sounds great. 863 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:33,639 I want to learn more about this. I want to 864 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,360 learn more how to understand these passages. Where would you 865 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,440 point them to? Where would you say? Here's where I 866 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,199 would start if I were you. 867 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, So thanks for the question. I would give a 868 00:53:45,679 --> 00:53:50,360 couple different resources. I would give three. First, I would 869 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,280 actually start out with Paul Copan's Is Got a Moral Monster? 870 00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:58,159 I think that's a great place to start. It goes 871 00:53:58,199 --> 00:54:00,480 over a lot of the ground that gets covered in 872 00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:04,440 the later literature, and yet it's pretty accessible. So I 873 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,320 would start with Copan's book. And then, actually, if you 874 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,039 wanted a step up from that, I would recommend Copan 875 00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:18,320 and Flanagan's book Did God Really Command Genocide? It's a 876 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:24,119 little bit more advanced, but it's still relatively accessible. And then, last, 877 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,599 if you really want to do this in a class 878 00:54:26,639 --> 00:54:30,480 type situation, I am working on a course that will 879 00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:30,920 do this. 880 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,000 Speaker 4: So I'm working on a course where we'll go. 881 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,840 Speaker 2: Through the passages, We'll look at the context deeply, and 882 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,719 then try to come up with a way of interpreting 883 00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,960 these that's faithful both to Scripture's authority and God's perfect goodness. 884 00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:48,800 Speaker 4: So again you mentioned my website. 885 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,920 Speaker 2: You can go to Christian Philosophy Academy dot com and 886 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,360 you can get on the wait list for the course, 887 00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,880 so that that would be another great resource. 888 00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,920 Speaker 3: Excellent doctor Clues. Thank you so much for coming on 889 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,000 the podcast. This has been so helpful and it's been 890 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:04,960 great to meet you. 891 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,039 Speaker 4: You're welcome, Chad, thank you, and thank you for all 892 00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:07,840 the work you're doing. 893 00:55:08,079 --> 00:55:08,960 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. 894 00:55:10,039 --> 00:55:12,519 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the podcast. If you have a 895 00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:14,920 question you'd like us to address, or just a message 896 00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,639 for us feedback good or bad, you can either email 897 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,519 us at podcast at apologetics three fifteen dot com or 898 00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:24,800 leave a voice message for us using speak pipe. Just 899 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,880 go to speakpipe dot com slash apologetics three fifteen to 900 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,760 leave us a message. 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Find Chad's apologetic stuff over 909 00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,440 at truth Bomb Apologetics That's True, truthbomb dot blogspot dot com. 910 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:04,599 This has been Brian Aughton and Chad Gross for the 911 00:56:04,639 --> 00:56:07,519 Apologetics three fifteen podcast, and thanks for listening