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That's Chumbuck Casino dot com 22 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.520 and live the Chumba Laine, No, We're necessary, I Daly Voidhever, 23 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:01.079 everybody lost in terms of conditions being pless. 24 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.719 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 25 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.200 written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 27 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.920 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:42.719 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 30 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:47.760 In the late eighteen hundreds in Rochester, New York, Monroe County, 31 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.920 there were five sensational murders. The first story is about 32 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.159 the home invasion murder of a young wife and mother. 33 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:58.480 Her body was found in the cellar, a flower sack 34 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:01.560 tied tightly around her neck and her skirt hiked up. 35 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.120 At first, of course, her husband was arrested amid rumors 36 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:08.800 he and his wife were swingers. The husband's supporters protested 37 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:11.199 that he couldn't be the killer, It must have been 38 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:14.439 a transient. The husband was released in favor of a 39 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:18.199 preferable suspect, a damaged young tramp who had been floating 40 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:22.080 around the neighborhood looking for food. In the second story, 41 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:26.000 a woman's husband's head was almost severed, and she was 42 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:29.439 told that he had borrowed from her former husband a 43 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:33.360 very sharp razor and cut his own throat in a suicide. 44 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:36.599 In another story, the resort town of Charlotte where the 45 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:39.439 rich went to play along the crystal clear waters of 46 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:42.599 Lake Ontario at night. It was where the pickpockets and 47 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:45.439 the thugs went to fleece drunks who still had money 48 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:49.000 in their pockets. After our victim checks into a hotel 49 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:52.520 for the night, complaining he'd been mugged, he dies overnight 50 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:55.360 from brain swelling. But who bunked him on the head. 51 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:58.039 The answer seems to come the next day, when a 52 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:00.919 man is going around trying to sell the victims watch. 53 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:06.000 In another story, Brother Kills Brother. The book spans the 54 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.120 last years of the gallows in Monroe County and the 55 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:12.599 first of the new fangled electric chair. The book that 56 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:16.479 we're featuring this evening is Filthy Murders of Ye Old Rochester, 57 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:20.759 Monroe County Homicide in the Era of Jack the Ripper, 58 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:25.479 with my special guest historian and author Michael Benson. Good 59 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:28.719 evening and welcome back to the program. Michael Benson, how 60 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:29.439 you doing Dan. 61 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:30.800 Great to be back. 62 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.000 Thank you so much for this interview and congratulations on 63 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:35.960 this latest book. 64 00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:36.599 Thank you. 65 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:41.520 Now The Filthy Murders of ye old Rochester, Monroe County 66 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:44.719 homicide in the area of Jack the Ripper the table 67 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:48.479 of contents. The stories involved are a Stone Killer, the 68 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.759 Hayward Avenue Horror, The second one is the murder of 69 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:55.960 Charles Demico, the third is carnage at the Cottage Hotel, 70 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:59.879 and fourth is death on West Avenue and Practress I 71 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.319 rounds crossing. Now, first off, remind us of your true 72 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.759 crime origin story. Why do you write about crime and 73 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:09.080 murder in Rochester. 74 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:12.879 Well, I grew up in a rural area south of Rochester, 75 00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.039 New York, at the end of a dirt road, and 76 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:17.399 when I was nine years old in nineteen sixty six, 77 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:21.560 my babysitter, George Anne Formacola, and her friend Kathy Bernhard 78 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.839 from down the road, went swimming in a swimming hole 79 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.759 behind my house and never came back. It was the 80 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:31.079 first day of summer vacation, the night of graduation at 81 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:33.879 the high school, and they were missing for a month 82 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.680 and their bodies were found in a field to the 83 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:41.160 west of my dad's property and they disappeared from the 84 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:44.759 swimming hole which was almost directly behind my house. So 85 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:47.399 then they were found horribly butchered. It was a Jack 86 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:51.560 the Ripper type prime with sexual mutilation and parts removed, 87 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:56.439 implied cannibalism, all of the Jack the Ripper trademarks, and 88 00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.519 it changed my life horribly. And when I grew up 89 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:02.519 I became a true crime writer. Not a coincidence, Yes, 90 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:05.040 I wrote a couple of books that took place in Rochester, 91 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:08.319 Betrayal and Blood and Killer and Killer Twins, and then 92 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:11.319 went back and teamed up with a private detective in 93 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:12.959 the mom of one of the victims who was still 94 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:15.800 alive at the time, and we, as they say in 95 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:20.199 podcast land, we propelled the investigation into a startling new direction. 96 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:22.879 So it's good as good I sort of. I put 97 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:24.639 a band aid at least on a wound from my 98 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:27.759 childhood with that book, and it became very popular in Rochester. 99 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:29.240 They wanted to know what I was going to do 100 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.439 for an encore, so I wrote Nightmare in Rochester about 101 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:35.759 the double initial murders that took place there between nineteen 102 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.639 seventy one and seventy three, still one of my most 103 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.560 popular books. And then after that we took on cold 104 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.839 cases and those turned into mosquito. Point wrote in Rochester's 105 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:48.600 Most Startling Crimes, And during my stint as a cold 106 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:52.000 case investigator, I was very unhappy and wore me down 107 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:56.000 emotionally because I was dealing with brieving loved ones and 108 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.480 some seriously bad people that I was investigating. So in 109 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.560 order to get myself an emotional break and to still 110 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:07.040 please by Rochester audience, I decided to write about nineteenth 111 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:09.800 century Rochester murders, which are every bit is juicy, but 112 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.600 I don't have to feel bad about it and have 113 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.399 trouble getting to sleep, and I went to write about 114 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:14.439 them absolutely. 115 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.759 In the forward of this book you title The Sordid Underbelly. 116 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.480 You write about a killer in eighteen eighty eight London 117 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:25.000 who came to be known as Jack the Ripper, and 118 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:29.639 one of the suspects was Francis Tumblety from Rochester. 119 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:34.879 That's true, Yes, not my favorite suspect, but one of 120 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.879 the top five, I would say amongst experts. He was 121 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:43.560 a Rochesterian. As a boy, he tramped around Eerie Canale. 122 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.759 He sold snake oil that's fake medicine, usually some sort 123 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.600 of liquor that pretends to cure all your ills, and 124 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:54.519 he sold pornography along the Erie Canal. He was arrested 125 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.079 and jailed for a time for possible involvement in the 126 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.480 assassination of Abraham Lincoln. He knew John Wilkes booth I 127 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:04.160 was in London and frequented the dirty streets of Whitechapel 128 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.720 for unsavory purposes at the time of the Ripper murders, 129 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:11.120 and he was arrested as a suspect before being released 130 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:14.120 for lack of evidence and then fleeing back to America. 131 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.399 And what's always pointed out is that the murder started 132 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.319 soon after he arrived and stopped when he left. Now 133 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:23.199 December eighteen eighty eight, word got back to Rochester that 134 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:26.439 Tumbley was a jack the Ripper suspect and a fellow 135 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.120 named Edward Haywood of the Bureau of Accounts in the 136 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:32.439 State Department in Washington, DC. He's our primary source on 137 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.480 all things Tumbley. He had an uncanny ability to run 138 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.639 into this guy in different contexts throughout his life, so 139 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.040 I remember him very well. Used to run about the 140 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.600 canal in Rochester, dirty, awkward, ignorant, uncared for good for 141 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:49.040 nothing boy about eighteen fifty five, he encountered Tumbley in Detroit, 142 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:52.000 where Tumbley was pretending to be a doctor. To say 143 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:54.639 that Tumbley had no medical training wasn't quite true. He 144 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.040 worked briefly with an abortion in venereal disease doctor named 145 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.759 Lis Bernard in a downtown rocket office in the Reynolds Arcade, 146 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:04.680 but the only known responsibility he had in the doctor's 147 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.319 office was sweeping the floors. We know because a patient 148 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:09.920 undergoing an abortion died and Tumbley was arrested, but he 149 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:12.399 was quickly released and it was said that he wasn't 150 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.040 really involved. In eighteen sixty four, he's in Brooklyn, New York. 151 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:20.600 He's charged with fraud for selling snake oil, selling twenty 152 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:23.519 dollars bottle of booze that's supposed to cure people's asthma, 153 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:26.560 seven years before the Whitechapel murders. In eighteen eighty one, 154 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.839 he's in New Orleans, gets arrested for picking of pockets. 155 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:33.799 Now amazingly, Heywood cross paths with Tumbledy on a third time, 156 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:36.360 this time in Washington, d C. Where Tumbley was dressed 157 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:40.200 in a bogus military fatigue uniform and claiming to be 158 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.919 on a general staff now. He was arrested in Whitechapel 159 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:45.759 at the time of the murders. They're charged with gross 160 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:49.679 indecency after an incident involving a male sex worker. Records 161 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:51.159 show that he was not in jail at the times 162 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:53.399 any of the jactor for murders, and when he fled 163 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:56.600 England the murders stopped. He was later found to have 164 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:01.879 in his possession a collection of women's uteruses fascination with parts. 165 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:05.639 As they say, he fits the Ripper profile in some ways. 166 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:08.399 His wife worked as a sex worker, so he may 167 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:12.000 have had a grudge against people practicing prostitution. He was 168 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.320 a hater of women, with some medical knowledge sold pornography. 169 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:18.679 I'm an Aaron Kasminsky fan. I think he was the 170 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.440 best suspect of the time of the murders. But Tumbley's 171 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.399 a good one. No evidence that he was a killer 172 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.799 by nature, but he was certainly weird and a horrible man, 173 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:29.840 and he was there in Whitechapel when everything happened. He 174 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.840 died in nineteen oh three and is buried in Rochester, 175 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:34.879 New York, in Holy Spical Cemetery. 176 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:38.039 You write about Jack the Ripper because at the same time, 177 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:43.200 eighteen eighty eight crimes were shocking. The murders were shocking 178 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:47.519 residents in Rochester. And you talk about Rochester at that 179 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:51.879 time eighteen eighty seven. In fact, Rochester, New York, a 180 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:56.120 fifty thousand population, called it the Flower City. First it 181 00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:59.360 was flower like baking, then it was flower like the flower. 182 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.840 It was the twentieth biggest city in the United States 183 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:03.679 at that time. 184 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.120 And growing very rapidly. A lot of the industries that 185 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:13.039 would become part of Rochester's tapestry were just starting up. Sibley, 186 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.799 Lindsay and Kerr the department store was starting up, and 187 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:21.639 Kodak was just starting that course. Eventually Kodak would be 188 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.840 a major employer. Probably almost half of Rochesterterians worked for 189 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:27.840 Kodak one time or another, and that was all just 190 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:31.759 starting up. But I found that crimes in eighteen eighty 191 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:36.320 eight were a lot like I felt like an archaeologist. 192 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.360 I felt like I was peeling back changes in time 193 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:42.080 and looking at the way things used to be. You know, 194 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.480 no radio, no TV. When there's a murder, the way 195 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:48.080 people find out is because little kids would run up 196 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:51.840 and down the street shouting murder on Hayward Avenue like 197 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:55.879 town criers and crowds would gather at crime scenes because 198 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:58.840 that was the major form of entertainment on that particular 199 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:05.000 roads are not the major thoroughfares railroads and the Eerie Canal, 200 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.000 or the major thoroughface of the Canal goes right through 201 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:12.039 downtown Rochester at that time. Today and for many years 202 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:14.200 even before I was born, they diverted it so it 203 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.159 now goes around the southern border of the city of Rochester, 204 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:19.879 not through downtown. But at the time they needed the 205 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:22.720 canal to deliver goods and to take goods out. In 206 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:25.600 terms of crime fighting, well, the first thing I noticed 207 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:27.840 was that once a bullet went into a body, it 208 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.519 tended to stay there. I mean, we're used to having 209 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.679 X ray machines handy in hospitals and they can take 210 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:36.679 a picture, locate the bullet, and then take the bullet out. 211 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:39.399 Doctors had no clue where the bullet was, and sometimes 212 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:42.000 trying to find the bullet would hurt the patient more 213 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:45.120 than leaving it there. In one case, in filthy murders, 214 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:48.279 the victims injuries are not thought serious at first. The 215 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.279 guy's take it to the police station rather than to 216 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:53.200 the hospital, and he has to moan and slump before 217 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:55.159 somebody thinks to pull up his shirt and there's a 218 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:58.559 gaping wound. There very little consideration given to the rights 219 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:03.039 of the accused. System in which authorities can railroad someone 220 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.960 whenever they want to, not that that always happened, but 221 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:08.639 they always could if they wanted to. There was no 222 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:12.840 obviously no miranda rights. In the book's featured story, the 223 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:16.879 prisoners kept isolated in the women's jail, which is otherwise empty, 224 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.519 which because this set's a sign of the times as well, 225 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.960 no women prisoners at the time. And he's refused a lawyer, 226 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:25.799 and what he's asked. He asked to talk to somebody 227 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.200 with legal knowledge. They tell him to talk to the 228 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.080 district attorney, and the district attorney tells him, if you 229 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.519 don't confess now, you're going to be executed. So what 230 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:36.320 do you think he does now? In the courtroom, I 231 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:40.360 was pleased to find that things are not that different 232 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.799 from there the way they are today. The key difference 233 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:46.519 was there's no recording equipment in the courtroom, so every 234 00:12:46.600 --> 00:12:51.840 newspaper plus the court itself had multiple stenographers taking shorthand 235 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:55.639 during testimony, and those squiggles were later transcribed and published, 236 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:59.799 which made research ridiculously simple in some cases for me. 237 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.840 Now in the world without TV or radio or movies 238 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:06.960 even hadn't been invented yet, the murder cases became the 239 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.919 primary sources of entertainment for the residents of the city 240 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:13.360 and everything that has to do with the crime, the funerals, 241 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:18.039 the court hearings, everything. Crowd control is always an issue 242 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.919 because a lot of people in Rochester in eighteen eighty 243 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:23.799 eight had nothing better to do than to want to 244 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:25.519 be the first to find out the news when it 245 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:27.639 came to the most recent horrible thing that had happened. 246 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:32.200 Yeah, let's talk about your first story, which demonstrates and 247 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:34.559 illustrates so many of the things that you just mentioned. 248 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.159 Let's talk about Stone Killer and the Hayward Avenue horror. 249 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.679 Let's talk about the Stones and their neighbors, the Jones 250 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.480 and the August sixteenth, eighteen eighty seven. 251 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.159 Well, yeah, let's start with the Stones in the Joneses, 252 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.799 because they were two married couples that the Stones had 253 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:55.480 a little boy, the Joneses were childless, and throughout the 254 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:59.080 entire case, there's a little smirk in everything you read. 255 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:04.399 Everything everybody says, the Jones and the Stones were close friends, 256 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:09.080 really really close wink. And the implication is, and the 257 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:12.559 whispers start almost immediately following the murder, which we'll get to. 258 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.000 But they did a lot of things together. When one 259 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:17.960 couple moved, the other did two the relationships. If you 260 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.919 ask them about the relationship of the foursome, they always 261 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.480 used the word intimate, which maybe wasn't intentional, but it's 262 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.679 a word that's filled with dynamite, and it just implies, 263 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:29.519 and dirty minded people applies all sorts of things. The 264 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.080 story came out that Isabella Jones had once visited the 265 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:36.000 Stone House, which she did most days, and when she left, 266 00:14:36.279 --> 00:14:39.399 she left behind a shoe, and that forgotten shoe became 267 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.039 Rochester symbol. But they were certain was a pit of 268 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:44.039 depravity in the Stone House. 269 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:44.399 Right. 270 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.080 It reminds me a little bit about the John Dennay case, 271 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.080 where some people will just always believe that something horrible 272 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.759 was going on inside that house that led to the murder. 273 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:54.840 That there wasn't in this case. It wasn't announce of 274 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:58.159 evidence to support any of it, but the community's beliefs 275 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:01.679 always was there, and it didn't helped that these Stones 276 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.519 were showbiz types Missus Stone was a singer with the 277 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:08.720 Rochester Opera Company that appeared in the Musketeers, and her 278 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:10.679 husband was in the course, and that was how they met. 279 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:14.919 And do show people had a reputation for not being 280 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:16.879 the most Christian and moral. 281 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:21.320 Now tell us about Aida and Alonzo Stone. But right 282 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.639 away you open to Ada in a cellar, and two 283 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:29.840 detectives in that cellar, and the examination of Alonzo by police. 284 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:34.279 Right well, on August sixteenth, eighteen eighty seven, there was 285 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:37.320 a warm, perfect day in Rochester, not a cloud in 286 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.759 the sky, temperature in the high seventies. And Ada Stone 287 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:44.960 is doing her laundry, tending to her three year old 288 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:49.360 boy when they live in a cream colored cottage with 289 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.799 a cluster of well tended nestertiums on either side of 290 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:55.519 the door. A lovely little place. And even though it's 291 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:59.279 Hayward Avenue, very urban now pretty a rural spot. That time, 292 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:04.960 there's a pond in a woods. The Alonzo is an 293 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.240 industrious young mechanic, the wife's good looking, and they've only 294 00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:11.240 been living in that house since May. And of course 295 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.600 the Joneses moved so they could be nearby. The police 296 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.679 noticed that the cottage was somewhat isolated. The nearest building 297 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.200 was one hundred and fifty feet away rather and there 298 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:24.240 was a house nearby where the construction crew had been working, 299 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:27.960 and that was where mister Stone had been working that day, 300 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.799 so he was never very far away from the house. 301 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:34.919 The body of Missus Stone was found on the dirt 302 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:38.240 cellar floor. She'd been interrupted while doing the laundry. A 303 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.720 bag had been tied very tightly around her neck with 304 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.759 a single knot. Under the right ear was a flower 305 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:47.000 sack blood stained. Detectives assumed the sack must have been 306 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:49.559 one of the items eight had washed that day, because 307 00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:51.879 there was not a trace of flour found inside it. 308 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:54.840 The body was dressed in ordinary working clothes, which were 309 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.200 soiled with sand, coal and charcoal, mostly things you would 310 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:00.799 find on the floor of the cellar, and the soiling 311 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:05.160 significantly was on both the victim's inner and outer clothing on. 312 00:17:05.319 --> 00:17:07.279 Her hair had been pulled out of its dew or 313 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:09.920 loose hair pins in it, and her clothes were all 314 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.119 still on, but her dress and skirt had been pulled 315 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:16.440 up somewhat. Her head was lying on its right side 316 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:20.640 facing left, and body was on its back. Right arm 317 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.000 was stretched out towards the west, over her head hand clenched. 318 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.759 This will give you an idea of the euphemistic manner 319 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:31.079 which newspapers reported the facts back then. It's a quote 320 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.079 the left leg. The left leg was flexed slightly at 321 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.480 the knee, and the right leg was flexed nearly at 322 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.839 a right angle, so in other words, her legs were open. 323 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.920 Face was discolored as dirty yellow color, eaches were swollen, 324 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:47.160 tongue protruded slightly bloody froth exuding from the mouth. There 325 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:49.799 was a puddle of blood under her head, mostly coming 326 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:51.839 from a large gash down to the bone on the 327 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.240 right side of her forehead at the hairline. There was 328 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.400 no blood on the victim's hands, but there was bruising 329 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:00.319 around the forehead wound, which the detectives asked made it 330 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:02.640 to be about three inches from her eye. The wound 331 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:05.920 appeared to have been made by a roundish blunt instrument. 332 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.960 Mister Stone was promptly jailed. Alonzo was taken and put 333 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.039 in a cage. Their son, Raymond, was whisked away by 334 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:16.759 relatives and he was arrested basically because police figured the 335 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:19.440 husband always did it. Nobody else cared enough to kill 336 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:19.799 the woman. 337 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:24.079 Right, how did they proceed? You talk about the coroner's inquest, 338 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:28.279 but how do police proceed and what is the result 339 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.759 from the coroner's inquest in terms of any kind of 340 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:32.640 sexual assault? 341 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:36.559 Well, Corner determines that no sexual assault was completed, but 342 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:39.440 because of the state of the clothes, District Attorney was 343 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:43.440 determined to include attempted sexual assault as part of the 344 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:48.559 indictment package. What happens after Alonzo Stone is arrested is 345 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.400 that there is there's a meeting held in the town, 346 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:55.519 an indignation meeting they called it, and it was led 347 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:59.839 by a fellow named Professor Coates, the learned Professor co 348 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.119 It's a theological scholar, and he holds this meeting in 349 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.279 a church, and they decide that it's ridiculous that Alonso 350 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:08.680 has been put in jail for this shocking and horrible crime. 351 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:13.000 Could not possibly have been committed by any by a Rochesterian. 352 00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.519 That's out of the question. Rochester was too Christian and 353 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:20.119 moral for anything like this to have occurred one of them. 354 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:24.160 And they kind of stormed the police station and the 355 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:28.079 next morning the crowd into the courtroom chant and the 356 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:31.279 judge says, well, there's really no evidence that Alonzo did it, 357 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.960 so they let him go. Now Coats had the year 358 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:37.400 of the Press by that time. The voice from the 359 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.759 press all standing around scribbling notes, and he reminded them 360 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:45.000 and all Rochesterians that the gross cornfields and nurseries on 361 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.799 the outskirts of the city were infested by scores of tramps, 362 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:53.640 whose only visible means of support is theft. Authorties heard that, 363 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:56.039 and a light bulb went on over their head. Now 364 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.960 there's an idea, a tramp, a no good, dirty tramp 365 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:01.599 that fit the bill. But they went looking for tramps 366 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.920 and arrested the woman who was too slow to run away. 367 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.119 You right, that he didn't even fit the description. And 368 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:12.960 yet they found an older tramp, and then two boys, 369 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.559 they said, and then like as you right, they tried 370 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:17.680 to arrest them, and two of them ran away, and 371 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.039 they were left with one boy, and he fit the bill. 372 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.400 And yeah, and the boy they catches a pathetic creature. 373 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:25.920 I mean, it turns out he's only sixteen years old. 374 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:29.279 They never stopped and asked themselves. I think this would 375 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:31.559 be the first thing I would have asked myself if 376 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.240 I had been an arresting officer back then, is this 377 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:37.680 guy capable of doing the crime. He had been beaten 378 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.559 as an infant. He had a caved in ribcage, had 379 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:45.240 trouble breathing, had one side of his face was badly battered, 380 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.759 nearly one eye no longer faced in the right direction, 381 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.799 gave people the creeps, and he was scrawny, and he 382 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.680 looked like a fellow who mostly crept around here, a 383 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.880 funny way of shuffling when he walked, probably also due 384 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:01.559 to childhood injuries. And he looked like he was trying 385 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.799 to avoid confrontations rather than start them. The thing that 386 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:07.680 he had going against him was that he was a tramp, 387 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:10.200 He was an outsider, and he admitted being in the 388 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:12.720 area at the time of the murder. The primary piece 389 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:15.480 of evidence against him at the trial was his confession, 390 00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:18.680 when he repeated a few times because he was told 391 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.759 that he would be executed if he didn't confess, during 392 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:24.400 which time he said he entered the stone house seeking food, 393 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.319 ran into an angry aid of Stone who called him 394 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:29.480 names and tried to push him out. He angered and 395 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:31.799 hit her over the head with his stick. He choked 396 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:35.559 her until she was unconscious, and maintained through all of 397 00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.640 his confessions that he never intended to kill her and 398 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:42.200 never never planned to sexually attack her. He admitted to 399 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.960 dumping her in the basement. He later claimed that the 400 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.559 confession was false and that he'd been told that confessing 401 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:50.480