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Speaker 1: If you want to get the show early and ad free,

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There you can choose from where you wish to support me.

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Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me

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about this, even though I think on the last ad

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I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed,

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audio file. So head on over to the pekan Yonashow

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dot com. You'll see all the ways that you can

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support me there. And I just want to thank everyone.

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It's because of you that I can put out the

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amount of material that I do. I can do what

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I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two hundred Years Together

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and everything else, the things that Thomas and I are

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doing together on kindinal philosophy, it's all because of you.

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And yeah, I mean, I'll never be able to thank

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you enough. So thank you the Pekanyonashow dot com. Everything's there.

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Speaker 2: So one of the really interesting things that happened among

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the socialists is that they got a lot of they

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began amassing their own weapons and munitions. The amassing of

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like dynamite stockpiles and blasting charges from the miners is

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really important. Yeah, the Asturian miners, although they had a

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huge anarchists bent, they were still incredibly important in the

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Republican military as sappers and like shock troops because of

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their familiarity with explosives.

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Speaker 3: Truly, because just during the Revolution of October, figures I

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have it here, Figures said that they destroyed fifty seven

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bridges just in one month. Yeah, and for those that

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said that might set oh, but they were like enoughing Burger.

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They had an army that was twenty thousand strong and

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they were planning on moving on Madrid, and because everyone

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in Madrid was afraid of them, they just sent the

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army to just swep them up because they said, okay,

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they might move on Madrid, but we don't know it.

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And they said, we will move on Madrid.

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Speaker 2: So the interesting thing is this was a this was

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a mess. And this is on the tail end of

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the basically Preeto being pursued because he was the front

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man for a big order of weapons that were brought

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in from overseas, so he had the fleet of France.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, his flight is funny, I will say, very very funny.

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Speaker 2: He waddles to the border.

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Speaker 3: No, they essentially at first he was hiding in the

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home of a friend. Then he went to the home

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of another friend because he was afraid they will find

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him there. And he calls for like a sergeant on

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the air force to and tell him, Okay, I have

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to flee the country.

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Speaker 4: You have to help me.

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Speaker 3: And the guy arrives. They check him in the back

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of his car, but he doesn't want to get in

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the in the goddamn it, I forgot the word the

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trunk of the car because it is too hard. So

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they have to bring like the cushions of a sofa

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for him to be comfortable. And they drive to the border,

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and because the driver is the is the sergeant of

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the air force, they just let him through and he

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flees to to Paris.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because he at the first sign of trouble,

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he just dipped out while Largo Calero, knowing that he

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handed orders. He did a lot of speeches and all that.

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Speaker 4: He remained in Spain.

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Speaker 2: Huh. Interesting, So a lot is happening in this period.

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There's a law of amnesty that is signed in the

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summer of nineteen thirty four, and the original intent supposedly

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was to pardon the people who were involved in the

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sun Hurjada, the nineteen thirty two basically coup attempt. The

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General san Juro tried to spearhead. But then it evolved

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into sweeping pardons for all kinds of political agitators.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it essentially evolved into that because it was a

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law with retroactive effect that said that political activities and agitation,

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proclamations and insurrections were essentially Nolan Boyd from this date backward. Yeah, everything,

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So it was not as specific, it was everything.

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Speaker 2: And then, as you pointed out, this is when you know,

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this is right on the tail of this is when say,

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the demands to have some positions there. You know, even

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though the left was totally opposed to allowing them into

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any government organs, not only.

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Speaker 3: The left but also the center, the Republicans, the people

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of the center except the center right were opposed because

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they said, how are we going to let an enemy

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of the republic within it?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so that triggers the revolution of October nineteen thirty four,

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which you pointed out, the Austorians going ham, the army

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goes in and Largo Cabierro, is involved in leadership of

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the socialist uprising, is arrested by the Republic. In November,

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there were again mass arrests. More than twenty thousand people

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were arrested in relation to this uprising. Again, this is

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among the socialist communists and anarchists, and the Republic is like,

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we can't really tolerate this, but the government doesn't really

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have substantial material evidence against the leaders of these parties.

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And Largo Kabierro's trial is brought to the Supreme Court.

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The High Prosecutor of the Republic, Marcellino Valentin Gamazzo, calls

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for Largo Kabiro to be you know, serve a term

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of life in prison. There's a long trial and then interestingly,

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he's cleared of all charges thanks to that law of

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Amnesty of nineteen thirty four, because all of his well

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documented demands for war and violence had become legally inadmissible

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in court. Because of that law of amnesty. We have

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a we can touch on the speech that he gave

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in nineteen thirty three, which was frankly the clearest explanation

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of his intent or like his willingness to where he

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could take things.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I have here a quote he gave in

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nineteen thirty one. By the way, it is important that

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he said, this attempt of dissolving the courtes for lack

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of majority would be assigned the Pisoi and the Ujete.

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The Jugit team would take us a provocation to start

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a new revolutionary movement. I cannot accept that possibility.

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Speaker 4: It would be like.

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Speaker 3: Challenging the party and forcing us to start the civil

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war in nineteen thirty one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he echoes those terms in his thirty three speeches. Yes,

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so again that's legally an admissible because of this law

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of amnesty. So he's released from jail in December of

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nineteen thirty five. The High Prosecutor resigns in disgust, but

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he is not forgotten by the socialists. So this is

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right when that center right coalition government is about to collapse.

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Speaker 3: Yes, what happened is that Alexandro Leroux was involving two

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corruption scandals like very quickly in just a month, and

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that caused a huge crisis within the party. And seeing

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that essentially Hill robably said Okay, if this guy cannot

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be the president, I'll be the president. And Nicetoo, which

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was the president of Parliament, said no, So he dissolved

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the courtes and for new elections.

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Speaker 2: That was what happened, and that brings us into these

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spring elections of nineteen thirty six. Yes, very quickly, which

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is what triggers you know, this is everything is just

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accelerating at this point. And so Largo Cabierro in his campaigns,

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his campaign speeches as he's essentially saying we need to

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utterly remove the right from having any power and getting

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a little more aggressive, like we have to crush the bourgeoisie.

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How do you pronounce bourgeoisie in Spanish bourges of burges? Okay,

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that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Regarding the election, have a very very short quote here,

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he said in twenty third of January, for us to

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not repeat again the events of fourteen of April, where

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the people showed their enthusiasm but not their justice, it

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is necessary for the people on the right to know

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firsthand what popular justice is and to be punished for

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their inexorable failures.

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Speaker 2: Incredible, and he essentially said, we won't accept an electoral

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defeat of the left that would result in a civil war.

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Again he said several times, yes, totally, Like he's totally saying, like,

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even if they are legally elected, we won't accept it.

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It's unacceptable to us, and we will.

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Speaker 1: Go to war.

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Speaker 2: Yet the official framing this is from he becomes the

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president of the Prime Minister rather of the Republic. And

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you know, but again it's this right wing extremists. Who

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are the ones that are that are out of line. Yeah,

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so they win in a popular Front election, which is

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essentially a vast coalition of left wingers where everyone agrees

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you're going to vote for the Popular Front candidate. There's

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a great deal of violence, coercion, destruction of property, and

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very obvious electoral fraud in many places the let's see

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so interestingly, so Asaigna ann acts the state of Emergency

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to halt local elections that are planned for April, he

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suspends the constitution. And I characterize this as creating a

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state of anarcho tyranny where the left is permitted to

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run rampant while the right was essentially legally helpless. The

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Declaration of Largo cabiiro that like they're delegitimizing and crushing

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the left, or excuse me, crushing the right is actually

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taking place under the elue of it being a legitimate

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government activity to do this.

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Speaker 3: But you have to consider that Athania did not do

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it because he wanted to crush the right wing or

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he wanted to aid the socialists. He just did it

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because he didn't want to lose his seat. It's essentially

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that because if the right one again, the Republic was done. Yeah,

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and he didn't want that to happen. So he would

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rather have the left run rampant in Spain than to

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let his vanity project be destroyed. And he knew that

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if he acted against the acts of the left, the

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coalition would be destroyed, new elections, the right would win

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and they would eventually destroy the Republic.

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Speaker 2: Which is a fair point. The right was completely opposed

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to the Republic at this point in time, like they

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felt that it was you know, illegitimate from the start.

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And I think we've shown how illegitimate it was, you know,

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through you know, many other podcasts, but this one in particular.

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The way that the left behaves at this point, as

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they say, we don't care like any right wing election

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is illegitimate because we say it is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, happens too often.

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Speaker 2: So it's interesting because in the spring of nineteen thirty six,

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Largo Caballero basically there's a rift between him and more

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moderate people within the PSOE, although Largo Kabiiro retains the

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support of their power base. Really he's still very popular.

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He's this very seasoned senior leader within the party. He

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proclaims a desire to formally join the Communist International as

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well as to formally establish a relationship with the Soviet regime. Again,

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this is before the military uprising, and then during his

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speeches and political events in this period he displays portraits

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of Stalin communist flags and he closes every event by

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singing the International. Again, this is just a left wing

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elected republic. He had become the de facto PSCOE Party

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leader and the more moderate socialists or sidelined completely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, mainly Juliambistato. He was the main preponderant who, by

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the way, I forgot to point this is in response

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to the revolution of October he said, and I quote verbatim,

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let it be known that the fascist threat is not

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represented by Thida but by Largo Cavallero and his supporters

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then nurture it.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Bestato was since the beginning opposed to the communists,

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and he was relegated to complete irrelevancy very quickly.

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Speaker 2: So the military uprising happened July seventeenth, nineteen thirty six.

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Largo Cabeiro was made the leader of the Republic in

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September of nineteen thirty six at the age of nineteen,

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at the age of sixty seven.

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Speaker 3: Excuse me, yes, before before he took he took possession.

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There was the two other presidents. By the way, when

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the uprising took place, casares Ki Roga essentially resigned and

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Diego Martinez Barrio to the the presidency. He tried to

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negotiate with the sublebated generals. He failed and he resigned.

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And the new one, Josse Hiral, was the guy that

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disbanded the army and handed weapons to the population, and

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when he saw that the country, the Republic, was in

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complete anarchy, he also resigned.

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Speaker 2: Oops.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a lot of the Republicans were expecting

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that by disbanding the army they sublebated would like stop.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that the uprising would just disappear. Because they had

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declared the army disbanded.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but what it did is that a lot of

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in the sized officers and soldiers defected because I have

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no more obligation to you, bye bye.

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Speaker 2: And and this it's really important to understand that like

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right right at the time of the uprising, uh, the

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the deals that the that the anglophone world, the British

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and Americans, that the the business deal that they had

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with Spain and the military in particular as it related

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to like trucks and fuel and tires and things of

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that nature. Immediately British all the British and American companies said,

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we recognize that the Spanish nationalist, the military uprising, the

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rebel forces as the people that we have to deal with,

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and so we will provide this to them on credit.

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So there was no there was no tether between the

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Republican government and the military and their kind of key

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sources of these supplies from outside of the country. It

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was over like right at the jump, and so there

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was nothing they could do about that at this point.

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Largo Cabiiro was only the leader of the republic for

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eight months. He would stay in power until May nineteen

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thirty seven. But the interesting thing is that he he

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essentially attempted direct control of the entire army. But the

252
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records of this are very unclear. There there's a there's

253
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a distinct lack of documentation, probably burned long ago, you know,

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at some point at this that or period that.

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Speaker 3: Or essentially, there are multiple sources that said that he

256
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did this. Another one said, Oh, he didn't do it,

257
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but he knew it. Another said, oh, he didn't do

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it and he didn't know about it, but he was

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informed later.

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Speaker 4: It's a lot of.

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Speaker 3: Confusion, and at the end of the day, you really

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don't know exactly what happened, like with the Gold of

263
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Moscow or the execution of Primo de Riberta, because there

264
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is multiple people that say that, oh, he authorized it,

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Oh he didn't do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And and this is where the breakdown of like

267
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the people who attempt to own the narrative or direct

268
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the narrative on the subject the Spanish Civil War, it

269
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always falls apart because during this period, the you know it,

270
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there was there was a very strong like republican government

271
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narrative that kind of shifted as soon as the Soviet

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control of it was so obvious and so they started

273
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ret conning that you know, all these kind of state

274
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socialist parties and more moderate you know people were it

275
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was it was taken over. That's kind of an or

276
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Well orientation or like the anarchic you know, they scapego

277
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the anarchists. And then in the sixties later sixties, you know,

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they you know, especially when the left and the hard

279
00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:00,759
left turned against the Soviet Union, they started attempting to

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resuscitate the anarchists. And then in the nineties and aughts,

281
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like you have Anthony Bevore, who is a you know,

282
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he's essentially playing choose your own Spanish Civil War and

283
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you know, saying, well, really like ideologically the anarchists, and

284
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like there were the subset of like cool anarchists that

285
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were that were really kind of just libertarians and hippies

286
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and like they were the really good guys, but just

287
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all these bad people and extremists for the problem. It's

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it's totally ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: Well, the way you said it explains why there was

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a resurgence in terrorist activity in the sixties in Spain.

291
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A lot of anarchist groups started to just sprout around here.

292
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It was also the time when Etta was born.

293
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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, that's right. So Largo Cabiro, again, as

294
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you pointed out, the army was essentially disbanded. There were

295
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:08,880
all these militias and random political parties and and people

296
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who were armed. Uh, you know, the workers were armed, right,

297
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,680
they just opened up the arsenals to them. They had

298
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,880
no idea what they were doing. So Largo Cabeiro attempted

299
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to centralize the army command and then put professional soldiers

300
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in charge of the leftist militias and like incorporate them

301
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,759
into the army, which really it took some time for

302
00:22:33,839 --> 00:22:37,799
that to happen, but they really started, you know, having

303
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,920
success in that area in the spring, which is around

304
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,960
the same time that the that the right did the

305
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,640
same thing where they where they unified. Yeah, with all

306
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,640
the militias under the under the central command of the army.

307
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Speaker 4: Yeah, with the CREO unification.

308
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Speaker 2: Indeed. And then but to back up a little bit,

309
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,119
the Soviet Union did. As we pointed out that there

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was not only a proclaimed relationship directly between the Spanish

311
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Republican government and the Soviet Union, but the Soviet Union

312
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their policy was that like the Republic would fall without

313
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the aid of the Soviet So by mid September nineteen

314
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thirty six, the first shipment of military material and personnel

315
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:40,240
quote unquote advisors, but literally like first round, you know, equipment, operators,

316
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,039
armored cars, tanks, aircraft, and then a hodgepodge of some

317
00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:50,440
good weapons and some like a lot of crap, frankly flowed,

318
00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:56,440
as well as the implementation the institution of the international

319
00:23:56,519 --> 00:24:03,680
Brigades managed by the Communist Inner National And we're flowing.

320
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:09,319
Speaker 3: And talking about the Communist International. The General Secretary of

321
00:24:08,519 --> 00:24:13,400
the of the International, Gregory Dimitrov, sent the twenty three

322
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,279
of July instructions to the Communist Party of Spain, and

323
00:24:17,319 --> 00:24:21,480
I read exactly, at the present we should not undertake

324
00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:26,440
the task of creating soviets and establishing a proletariat dictatorship

325
00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:30,480
in Spain. That would be a fatal mistake. Thus we

326
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,279
proclaim that we must act under the guise of defending

327
00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:35,039
the republic.

328
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:44,279
Speaker 2: Indeed, and this balancing act is really well explained or contradiction,

329
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,440
I should say, is really well explained by some other

330
00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:55,279
material that we have in here. There's testimony from Alexander Orlov,

331
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,720
who is the leader of the NKVD in Spain and

332
00:24:59,759 --> 00:25:04,759
then Soviet ambassador Rosenberg was serving as a political liaison.

333
00:25:05,559 --> 00:25:11,200
There's all kinds of really interesting confessions that Orlov made

334
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:16,559
after you defected to the US. He provided testimony to

335
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,440
the Eastland Senate Judiciary Committee in nineteen fifty seven that

336
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:26,680
are like very good records of what Stalin's secret police

337
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:33,160
were doing in Spain, and you know, essentially reinforcing you know,

338
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,200
the testimony about what was going on in Spain under

339
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,960
the NKVD and the sim you know, what the communist

340
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:48,160
political parties were doing in Spain to everyone. And what

341
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,680
I want to do is jump down past you know,

342
00:25:53,079 --> 00:25:56,240
the gold that went to Moscow, like when all of

343
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:02,519
the precious metal reserves were sent out of Spain, seventy

344
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,119
two point six percent to Moscow, the remainder going to

345
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:13,319
France for arms purchases, a total joke, and just the

346
00:26:13,839 --> 00:26:21,079
nkv D going wild and just killing all kinds of

347
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,440
people that if you'll recall the prosecutor who had led

348
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,599
the prosecution of Largo Caballero in nineteen thirty five, Marcellino

349
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:37,920
Volentin was executed, you know, in a very like haphazard way.

350
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,799
Judges who didn't play ball to the degree, and a

351
00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:46,720
lot of times it was just revenge, not even trying

352
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:49,160
to get them to do anything. But there was a

353
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,799
big cleanup. One hundred and twenty eight judiciary magistrates were murdered,

354
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,799
two members of the Supreme Court were murdered. And sometimes

355
00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:01,400
it was done very haphazardly by just squads. Other times

356
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,599
they were like arrested and then executed.

357
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of the early executions were just impromptu.

358
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,000
The militia arrives, they take you to a desolate place

359
00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:11,480
and they.

360
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:12,319
Speaker 4: Just shoot you.

361
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 3: As the war dragged on, they became more subtle about it.

362
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:24,319
Speaker 2: And so here's where I wanted to reinforce the point

363
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:29,519
you made about the official Soviet position. And this is

364
00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:34,599
a letter from stalin December nineteen thirty six as to

365
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,839
what Largo Caberro's job was and where their framing came from.

366
00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:44,000
I'm just going to quote here and read for a bit.

367
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,440
We consider that it is our duty within our capabilities

368
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,480
to aid the Spanish government. You lead the fight of

369
00:27:51,559 --> 00:27:55,160
all workers and the forces of democracy against the military

370
00:27:55,519 --> 00:27:59,079
fascist army that are nothing more than a tool of

371
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:05,920
the international fascist forces. Remember, at this point the Germans

372
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,319
had provided airlift, and the Germans and Italians had provided airlift,

373
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,119
and there was This was just the very beginning of

374
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:21,319
you know, military aid and forces from Germany and Italy

375
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,000
going into into Spain as well, just very beginning of it.

376
00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:29,319
The Spanish revolution is taking a much different path than ours.

377
00:28:29,799 --> 00:28:34,920
The vastly different social, historical, and geographical conditions determine it.

378
00:28:35,319 --> 00:28:38,599
The international climate is vastly different than the one in

379
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,720
the Russian Revolution. It is quite possible that the parliamentary

380
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:46,960
way is a far more efficient revolutionary process in Spain

381
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:50,519
than it was in Russia, although Largo Carbeiro disagree. It

382
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:54,079
all point out you should pay special attention to peasants

383
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,079
due to the significance they have in a country like Spain.

384
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,359
It would be advisable to issue decrees relative to agrarian

385
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,000
patterns and to taxation in order to protect the interests

386
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,759
of these workers. It would also be advisable to draw

387
00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:11,240
these peasants toward the armed forces and build with them

388
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,880
a guerrilla army to fight in the rear of the

389
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,759
fascist army. As well, it would be convenient to draw

390
00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:21,920
towards the government the petty and middle bourgeoisie from the cities,

391
00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:26,799
or if possible, allow them to remain neutral. As long

392
00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:30,880
as they favor the government and protect them against confiscations

393
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,720
by ensuring within your means free take trade and commerce.

394
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,240
You must not reject the leaders of the Republican parties.

395
00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:42,599
On the contrary, you should draw them in and associate

396
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,400
them with the common efforts of the government. You need

397
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,640
to avoid being seen as a communist republic by the

398
00:29:48,799 --> 00:29:54,440
enemies of Spain. To dismantle their declared intervention fueling their

399
00:29:54,519 --> 00:29:58,119
rightful claims would be the worst danger for the Spanish Republic.

400
00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:02,279
You must seek the chance to declare, through all means

401
00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:04,920
available to the government that you will not tolerate the

402
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,160
violation of rights against the property or legitimate interests of

403
00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:16,240
foreigners in Spain. So this is Stalin telling Largo Kabeiro,

404
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:22,279
you know how his revolution is going to be, that

405
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:28,000
you know you can't. You can't do this now you can.

406
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:30,880
What you need to do is put on the facade

407
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,000
that this is a functional democratic government, because we need

408
00:30:35,079 --> 00:30:37,720
other European countries to come to the rescue of the

409
00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:42,920
republic via military aid or direct intervention. Then after the

410
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,000
war is won, you can implement your revolution. You can

411
00:30:48,039 --> 00:30:56,119
implement your communist regime or socialist regime. So interestingly, Largo

412
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,000
kabiiro formally replies in January of ninethineteen thirty seven and

413
00:31:01,119 --> 00:31:04,640
essentially says, I agree with your recommended strategies. And then

414
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,160
he says, quote, whatever may be the future of the

415
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,039
parliamentary form, it does not possess among us, or even

416
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:16,000
among the Republicans enthusiastic defenders. So at this point the

417
00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:22,119
republic and the Republicans saw the Republican model of government

418
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,160
as a failure.

419
00:31:23,759 --> 00:31:28,599
Speaker 3: In fact, most center and center right politicians started to

420
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,240
support the uprising, started to support the Nationals.

421
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: Yes, and so I'm going to skim a little more here.

422
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,000
Largo Cabeiro agreed with like the PCE and the Soviets

423
00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:55,039
that yes, I'll displace the anarchists. But then he realized,

424
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,039
by the end of January nineteen thirty seven, already and

425
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,920
along with members of his cabinet, that the Communists were

426
00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:08,400
leveraging his cooperation to destroy the power of all the

427
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,839
non communist leftist parties as well as to suppress their

428
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,440
influence among the public by incarcerating and murdering their leaders.

429
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:23,960
So that you know, Stalin's Stalin's forces as well as

430
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:30,279
their their Spanish allies in the Spanish Communist Party are

431
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:37,839
essentially violating the terms of what they said that they

432
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,839
were doing on the ground at the low level, but

433
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,599
they're keeping a handful of figureheads up at the top

434
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:49,960
while wasting everyone who goes against them. And the crazy

435
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,920
thing is in the militias and in the military, in

436
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,519
the army, out in the field. This was incredibly violent.

437
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,440
It was incredibly violent, and uh and continued to be

438
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:10,000
so so so Largo Carbierro uh recognized that despite all

439
00:33:10,039 --> 00:33:16,079
this framing that, you know, the the PCE and Rosenberg,

440
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,440
the Soviet ambassador, we're just hammering him. Just do what

441
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,079
we say, Just do what we say, Just do what

442
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:24,759
we say, Just do what we say. And so, you know,

443
00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:29,720
it's really interesting that he realized that he was nothing

444
00:33:29,759 --> 00:33:36,440
but a puppet at this point. And uh, interestingly, uh

445
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:43,480
he decided to resist by expelling Rosenberg from Spain and

446
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:51,440
sending him back to the Soviet Union the in rather

447
00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:56,359
than a direct confrontation with him and his party and

448
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:03,279
the government. The response from the Soviets and the PCE

449
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:10,840
is to go after you know, the quote unquote Trotsky POUM,

450
00:34:11,559 --> 00:34:16,320
the Marxist Unification Workers Party, which was the party that

451
00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:20,079
Orwell was, you know, associated with just because of his

452
00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:28,320
international connections and Largo Caviro refused to move against them

453
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,800
because he saw them as an integral part of that

454
00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:36,800
leftist coalition in Catalonia where they were just barely hanging

455
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,159
on by a thread, keeping them working with the central government.

456
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, because a.

457
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,639
Speaker 3: Thing that not a lot of people know is that

458
00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:50,400
in Catalonia, it was because the anarchists were the main

459
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,199
ruling force there. They instorted it kind of a system

460
00:34:54,239 --> 00:35:00,639
of like libertarian anarco communism. It's hard to it's hard

461
00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:06,639
to define, like they abolish private property money. If you

462
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,159
needed something, you could you could demand it from the government.

463
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:14,199
It was all over the place, and it was at

464
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:16,840
the beginning it was enforced mainly by Ruti and the

465
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,639
Ruti column as they advanced agon but in Catalonia it

466
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,719
was mainly enforced by the agents of the CNT and

467
00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:28,000
the POEM were also an integral part of the government

468
00:35:28,039 --> 00:35:32,559
in Catalonia.

469
00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:35,639
Speaker 2: And the the need to hold this coalition together this

470
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,760
you know, this Catalonia was already on the verge of

471
00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:42,039
yeah break.

472
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 3: Another civil war was brewing up.

473
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly, so the the Soviets and Communists claimed

474
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,760
that the POUM were in contact with Franco spies and

475
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,760
were essentially uh, you know, Franco Wist collaborators, if not fascist,

476
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,199
you know, secret fascists themselves, which is obviously ridiculous. But

477
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,760
the whole, the whole idea here is that they're whittling

478
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:17,079
away this, this coalition and the authority that Largo Capilero held.

479
00:36:17,639 --> 00:36:23,639
And so in the events of May when they basically

480
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:28,280
there was a civil war in Barcelona when they went

481
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:34,239
after the the CNT and the p o u M, uh,

482
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:40,119
the you know this, this really did it and the

483
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:43,400
the anarchists fought against the Communists more than the p

484
00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:45,880
o u M did in terms of like sheer numbers.

485
00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: Uh.

486
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: Again, a lot of it being ideologically driven as well

487
00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:54,239
as understanding what the Soviets were and what the Communists

488
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,079
were and always having been opposed to them for for

489
00:36:57,199 --> 00:37:01,599
decades frankly in in their in their idiology, and so

490
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:08,320
this was used by the Communists to really be an

491
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,280
excuse to go after even more people who are their

492
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,440
enemies and the party. They took care of the POUM.

493
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:24,079
They essentially liquidated the leadership in horrific ways, andresen was

494
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:25,320
played alive.

495
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was arrested, they moved, they moved him to

496
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,880
Madrid for interrogation, and then they proceeded to torture him

497
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,840
and he died during the torture.

498
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: And this was really the way that they operated with

499
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,800
all of their enemies, totally illegitimate system. So Largo Cabierro

500
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,199
like he knew the gig was up, but he was

501
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,679
pressured too and ultimately ended up resigning in May nineteen

502
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,239
thirty seven to May sixteen.

503
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 3: Important and important to note that Largo Colero his resignation,

504
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:06,519
the main, the main, the key component of his resignation

505
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,559
was in the Letho Prieto, who stabbed him in the

506
00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:13,199
back in order to get rid of him. He was

507
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,559
a key because the moderates in the Socialist Party went

508
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,679
against against against Largo Cavallero.

509
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:30,519
Speaker 2: It's very interesting, but but it's so strange because they're

510
00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:36,519
essentially it's it's it's a reaction to a situation that

511
00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:40,719
the moderates themselves aren't going to be able to keep control. Yeah,

512
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,559
but keep under control either, right.

513
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, But the thing is that the moderates actually thought, Okay,

514
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,119
if we get rid of Largo Caballero, who is a

515
00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:55,400
radical and he's driving into this. Maybe we can fix

516
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:00,039
it with a moderate candidate. They proposed Prieto, but he

517
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:05,840
was rejected and they chose one Negatine. It was arguably

518
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:12,800
worse than Largo because he accurently collaborated with the communists willingly.

519
00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: Like, enthusiastically even, Yeah.

520
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,199
Speaker 3: To a certain degree, he did. And he also did

521
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:26,960
the thing. He crushed the Catalonian independent government and he

522
00:39:27,079 --> 00:39:33,159
jailed absolutely everyone involved with it as well. So he

523
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,320
was harsh. He was harsh, and he did everything he

524
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,760
could to keep the communists behind him.

525
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 2: So that the interesting thing is Largo Cabilero is removed

526
00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:52,559
from the government and his leadership position in the PSOE.

527
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:55,559
He was still a member of the UGT Labor Union

528
00:39:56,039 --> 00:40:00,840
at this point, and my underst standing is that he

529
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,239
ended up going to Catalonia because it was safer for him, essentially,

530
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:05,719
Is that.

531
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, he went to Barcelona essentially.

532
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he became a vocal opponent of the

533
00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:22,480
communists and was calling out what was taking place in

534
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,840
Not long later, in autumn of nineteen thirty seven, he

535
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,199
was expelled from the UGT Labor Union they claimed that

536
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,760
he was not paying his party dues. Then he was arrested,

537
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,440
put under house arrest all of his funds, documents and

538
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:42,679
properties that he had earned, you know, while working in

539
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,639
the UGT. Again, remember he had been been a politician

540
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:47,719
for what thirty five.

541
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 3: Years, between thirty and forty years.

542
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so they took everything and he was essentially penniless.

543
00:40:58,119 --> 00:41:02,239
The UGT was essentially banded at this point or dismantled it,

544
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,039
and he was just stuck there, you know, unable to

545
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:12,519
really do anything. So of course this is you know,

546
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,559
it isn't long until the nationalists were advancing on Catalonia.

547
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:22,639
So in January nineteen thirty nine, after the Battle of

548
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:30,480
the Ebro broke the military around Catalonia, he and many

549
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:35,599
many other people fled Barcelona for the French border. And

550
00:41:36,039 --> 00:41:39,199
he just had nothing at this point. And so he was,

551
00:41:39,559 --> 00:41:44,320
you know, dependent on the goodwill of wealthy friends and people,

552
00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:47,639
you know, keeping his head above water. He did not

553
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,239
steal with a huge you know, he didn't steal away

554
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,480
with a big fortune seized from you know, illicit activities.

555
00:41:56,519 --> 00:42:00,599
Speaker 3: Unlike two other people that I know about.

556
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 2: Preeto was one and Negarin was the other and was

557
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:06,159
the other.

558
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:13,639
Speaker 3: Creato essentially stole like fifty million dollars from Negreen because

559
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:21,320
niggering Santa yacht with stolen goods to Mexico and they

560
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,679
were in transit when the republic fell and they re

561
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,559
crude even knew what to do with everything. So Preeto

562
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:34,559
took the advantage and seized the money. Wild Yeah, And

563
00:42:34,679 --> 00:42:38,880
essentially after the war, each one had their own organization

564
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,400
and they were they were like, I have letters that

565
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,199
they sent each other, and you can you can feel

566
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,280
that seething resentment they have for each other reading those letters.

567
00:42:52,320 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: It is insaneious, that's hilarious. So at this point, you know,

568
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:07,480
Largo Cabierro is stuck in France. There are people advocating

569
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:10,199
that he, you know, relocated to South America, like so

570
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,159
many people in this Spanish Republic did. The anarchists did

571
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,480
a lot of them went to Mexico. And one, on

572
00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:22,000
the one hand, he like really couldn't afford to do it,

573
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:24,320
but he also didn't want to be that far away

574
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:31,679
from Spain. So, uh, you know, Germany invades France, Largo

575
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,880
Kabierro was apprehended by French authorities. A lot of other

576
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:42,360
high profile you know, Republican political figures were also imprisoned. Interestingly,

577
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,039
so that the Franco regime UH demanded a return of

578
00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:50,480
all of their uh you know, political opponents so they

579
00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:54,480
could be tried for their crimes against the nation. But

580
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,159
the French authorities did not do so.

581
00:43:58,039 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 3: But the thing is that the French for it is extralated.

582
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 2: Some Yeah, that's a good point, like Lewis.

583
00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 3: Companies, which was the president of the Catalonian of the

584
00:44:11,079 --> 00:44:15,760
Catalonian Independent regime, and they just hand him over with

585
00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:19,320
little van Fur But they didn't do it with Largo

586
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:25,360
Cavallero or Frederica Monceni and also other anarchists and socialists

587
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:26,400
that were living in France.

588
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,679
Speaker 4: It's it's very peculiar, and.

589
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,159
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where we don't seem to

590
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,480
have good explanations as to why why the one and

591
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:38,119
not the other.

592
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:44,119
Speaker 3: Understand regarding Companies, I have a theory, it's a little

593
00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:50,079
bit her brain, and it is essentially because the French

594
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,679
really don't like the Catalonian independentists because they have pretensions

595
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:56,159
to land in France.

596
00:44:57,119 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, because of historical patterns from hundreds of years ago.

597
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, if not and I think they handed him over

598
00:45:06,559 --> 00:45:08,800
kind of because of that.

599
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,679
Speaker 2: That makes sense, That makes sense. Yeah, there's what it's about.

600
00:45:12,679 --> 00:45:19,920
A forty kilometer wide strip of the Mediterranean and north words.

601
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,000
That is the old Catalonian kingdom.

602
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: That's well, not not kingdom. Catalonia was never a kingdom.

603
00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:30,039
It was a county that were vassals.

604
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: That's that's right, that's right.

605
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,199
Speaker 3: But yeah, it is essentially that they have pretensions to

606
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,840
that land in France and also to the south in Balencia.

607
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,800
It is a I mean complicated.

608
00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 2: I never told you this, but when I was in Spain,

609
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,000
you know, many moons ago, I was on a bus

610
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:59,199
from Barcelona headed down to because I was going to

611
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,239
go to Cadiz and yeah, and so it was really

612
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,360
it was really funny because there was a very loud

613
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,480
Catalan woman on the bus and she started arguing with

614
00:46:12,559 --> 00:46:15,079
a bunch. She was talking very loudly about how the

615
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:21,159
Catalans invented everything, and so people are laughing, and the

616
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,960
funniest thing was that she claimed that they invented opera,

617
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:31,119
and everyone's laughing and they're like, that's so ridiculous. And

618
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:36,840
then she started singing opera and she had a beautiful voice,

619
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,079
and she like immediately captivated everyone and within like twenty

620
00:46:41,079 --> 00:46:45,400
seconds everyone was applauding. It was it was absolutely hilarious.

621
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,039
It was absolutely hilarious.

622
00:46:47,199 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 3: I mean, with that attitude, it's kind of a general

623
00:46:50,039 --> 00:46:55,039
attitude that some Catalonians have, and it's the reason why

624
00:46:55,079 --> 00:46:56,039
a lot of people.

625
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 4: In Spain an't like them.

626
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:02,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, even because well a little bit of sides track.

627
00:47:02,199 --> 00:47:07,880
A lot of people right now in Spain hate Catalonians

628
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:12,079
a lot because of something the government is doing. I

629
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:14,519
won't go into details because it's a very long topic.

630
00:47:16,519 --> 00:47:23,199
Speaker 2: Maybe another time, yes, So okay, So at this point,

631
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:30,360
Largo Cabierro is not sent to Spain. However, he is

632
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,840
handed over to the Gestapo and is imprisoned eventually in

633
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,920
the Sachsenhausen concentration camp at age seventy one and in

634
00:47:40,079 --> 00:47:43,679
poor health, and he spends the next several years in

635
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,480
the prison hospital until he's liberated by the Red Army

636
00:47:48,599 --> 00:47:54,119
in nineteen forty four. At this point, he is just

637
00:47:54,280 --> 00:48:04,320
like broken com Yes, he dies of kidney failure in

638
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,159
January nineteen forty or excuse me, in March nineteen forty six,

639
00:48:09,559 --> 00:48:15,280
well renal colic and is utterly. He's been utterly impoverished

640
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:19,800
and living in just horrible conditions for you know, about

641
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:23,760
six years, five or six years at this point. And

642
00:48:24,599 --> 00:48:27,280
he was buried in Paris, but in nineteen seventy eight,

643
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:33,280
in the post Franco Pact of Forgetting Era, he's reinterred

644
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:34,239
in Madrid.

645
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 3: A lot of exiles, Suspanish exiles. It happened that with

646
00:48:39,039 --> 00:48:42,599
them they died in South America, or they died in

647
00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:46,519
France and they asked to later be interred in Spain.

648
00:48:47,679 --> 00:48:52,840
It happened with way too many of them.

649
00:48:53,199 --> 00:48:55,519
Speaker 2: And I and I think that you know, you made

650
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,880
he made some interesting observations to wrap this up about.

651
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,119
You know, he was no Dolores Ibruri, who was just

652
00:49:04,159 --> 00:49:10,840
a loathsome psycho. He was. You can see, you can

653
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:15,239
see how he got radicalized. You can, and you can

654
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,920
be a little more sympathetic given you know, the way

655
00:49:20,199 --> 00:49:23,639
that he grew up. You know, his hard life, the

656
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,000
conditions that he just had to like deal with on

657
00:49:27,039 --> 00:49:33,320
a regular basis, and frankly, his very it seemingly earnest

658
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:38,079
attempts to like work with the system peacefully. And you know,

659
00:49:38,159 --> 00:49:41,880
he had some small, some small successes, but they were

660
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,599
very small successes, and he just became bitter and more

661
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,239
radical and jaded as time went by. But it's the

662
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,480
interesting the most interesting thing to me is I just

663
00:49:53,519 --> 00:49:56,920
get this impression from everything that he almost thought it

664
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:03,320
was a waste, like and he never wrote memoirs. He never,

665
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,280
you know, he wasn't uh, you know, we have we

666
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,920
have memoirs from pretty much the entire leadership of the

667
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:16,639
CNT and they're really interesting. But like Largo Cabierro, you know,

668
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,519
only biographers can take him on because we have his

669
00:50:19,639 --> 00:50:23,360
speeches and we have the testimony of other people. But

670
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:26,559
he just seems like he became a very different man

671
00:50:26,599 --> 00:50:27,199
over time.

672
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can see that change essentially with the with

673
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,000
the dictatorship, with the with his refusal to work with

674
00:50:36,119 --> 00:50:36,760
the government.

675
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 4: That is kind of.

676
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 3: It's kind of like he saw that whenever he tried,

677
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:49,920
whenever he tried to concede to aid or to collaborate

678
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,119
with the government, someone would put a roadblock in front

679
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:57,360
of him. It's the impression that he gives me that

680
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,159
no matter what he proposed, even field was good or

681
00:51:01,519 --> 00:51:05,480
maybe others considered misguided or something like that, he saw

682
00:51:05,519 --> 00:51:11,079
that there was always someone out to prevent him from

683
00:51:11,199 --> 00:51:15,800
achieving his goals, and it's probably a good part of

684
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,840
what drove him towards being more radical in general.

685
00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:28,679
Speaker 2: And I think we can wrap this up by quoting

686
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,960
from his nineteen thirty three speech and his infamous November

687
00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:40,280
nineteen thirty three speech in Badajos, where this is. Remember

688
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,280
this is in the campaign season. He was a member

689
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,440
of the provisional government, he was the head of the

690
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:53,639
Ministry of Labor. But they also saw this looming like

691
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:59,679
right wing victory that would destroy not only the republic,

692
00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:07,239
but there aspirations to implement a socialist regime. And so

693
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:15,599
the really interesting thing here is that I'm trying to

694
00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:19,039
find that the best spot to jump off on. Yeah, okay,

695
00:52:19,079 --> 00:52:21,719
here it is. So this is where we see a

696
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,880
lot of the kind of bitterness in this speech. So

697
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:31,519
I'm going to jump ahead and explain his position here

698
00:52:31,639 --> 00:52:36,440
from this speech. Quoting, he says, the Spanish people have

699
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:39,760
seen that rather than be thankful for their peaceful ways,

700
00:52:40,079 --> 00:52:43,159
the enemy comes back to enslave them. Do not be

701
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,920
surprised that history repeats itself and we must return to

702
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,480
a revolutionary movement, a violent one, and the blame will

703
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:55,719
be upon them. The Socialist Party joined the Provisional Government

704
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,159
as a minority with a duty to fulfill. We have

705
00:52:59,199 --> 00:53:03,800
accomplished all all of our objectives. Funny, even more, we

706
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,239
allowed some of our political fellows to not fulfill theirs

707
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:09,760
and for all the sake of the republic, so it

708
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,519
wouldn't fall like the first one from the nineteenth century.

709
00:53:13,519 --> 00:53:16,000
I should say. Back then, we thought that we were

710
00:53:16,039 --> 00:53:18,320
the backbone of the republic and it was our duty

711
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,519
to consolidate it, and that is why we accepted the

712
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:26,280
decision that the Provisional Government would immediately reconvene the core tests.

713
00:53:27,519 --> 00:53:30,039
That was the second mistake of the Spanish Republic. In

714
00:53:30,119 --> 00:53:33,679
other words, here's this republic. We're going to put in

715
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:40,840
place republican you know, principles in our republican form of government.

716
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,000
So he's you know, talking out both sides of his

717
00:53:44,039 --> 00:53:47,760
mouth right here. We prematurely joined the coretest before carrying

718
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,239
out our revolution, only to be cast out by the parliament.

719
00:53:53,079 --> 00:53:56,840
Nobody will be surprised if, in similar circumstances the people

720
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,480
join a premature call to parliament only to be out

721
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,119
once more. So he's essentially saying, in this election period,

722
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:09,239
like we're wasting our time by voting for parliamentarians and

723
00:54:09,559 --> 00:54:15,039
working with a parliamentarian government. Protests against us were only

724
00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:19,239
levied when we began to implement social laws or social reforms.

725
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,039
Did they think that we were in the government to

726
00:54:22,119 --> 00:54:26,400
defend partisan interests. Wasn't our duty first and foremost to

727
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,639
triumph for the working class? That is what we did.

728
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,039
But our legislation wasn't enforced, and yet we tolerated it,

729
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,199
And then we tolerated the obstruction of our reforms in parliament.

730
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:42,480
Later on we tolerated all this, convinced that the Republic

731
00:54:42,599 --> 00:54:45,880
was necessary for the working class to go above and beyond.

732
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,039
And that's when the campaign of lies and slander began,

733
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,719
a campaign carried out by those who very soon will

734
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,559
come begging us for help to defend the republic. And

735
00:54:56,599 --> 00:54:59,320
I will ask them, why are you attacking us if

736
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:02,119
you will soon be us for help. Think about it.

737
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:07,360
Don't you see that they represent nothing in Spain? You

738
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,079
do not represent anything because you aren't backed by the

739
00:55:10,159 --> 00:55:14,280
conscious working masses. Think because I will say that the

740
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,920
republic will not stand without the socialists, and you cannot

741
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,639
rule without the socialists. You made the mistake of rushing

742
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:24,440
into elections because you thought that the votes in our

743
00:55:24,559 --> 00:55:28,159
favor were from the Republicans. But as soon as parliament

744
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,639
was dissolved, you realize this was false, that the working

745
00:55:31,679 --> 00:55:35,119
classes with the Socialists more than ever, and if you could,

746
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:37,920
you would not hold elections because you know that the

747
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:43,960
Socialists would gain even more seat in parliament. So how

748
00:55:44,119 --> 00:55:48,280
interesting is it that he's complaining not about the right wing,

749
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:53,400
but he's talking about the left Republicans styming and being

750
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:58,159
the chief opposition to the socialists. We have a similar

751
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:04,519
talking points on the right that the enemy of like

752
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:12,119
are thinking is conservatives. It's incredible and incredibly interesting parallel.

753
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:15,119
He's not even talking about the real enemies. He's talking

754
00:56:15,119 --> 00:56:20,719
about being backstabbed by the moderate Republicans.

755
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 1: That just sounds way too familiar.

756
00:56:26,199 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 4: Way too familiar.

757
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's just history doesn't repeat itself.

758
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,000
But it's a scripts. If the script works, do it

759
00:56:35,039 --> 00:56:35,840
over and over again.

760
00:56:36,519 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And so this is really interesting. As he

761
00:56:42,519 --> 00:56:46,400
closes it, I'm gonna skip ahead a tiny little bit

762
00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:53,440
that he's essentially saying. He says, therein lies the mistake

763
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,760
of the Republicans. They believe that the political struggle is

764
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,239
separate from the economic struggle, and that the worker not

765
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:04,119
even collaborate with his boss and political activity. Now in

766
00:57:04,159 --> 00:57:07,320
these elections they will realize a mistake that will cost

767
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:13,800
them dearly. That sounds pretty familiar right now. And then

768
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:18,119
he says, the candidates of the anti Marxist front is

769
00:57:18,679 --> 00:57:24,119
composed of fascists, monarchists, conservatives and radical republicans. And I

770
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,400
ask you is there a difference between any of them? None?

771
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,559
Even worse. These last ones are the worst because the

772
00:57:30,639 --> 00:57:33,800
radicals are the ones facilitating the return of the monarchy.

773
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,760
You don't have to look further than who defended March

774
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:39,599
in the Cortes March being.

775
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 3: A banker, businessman, I'm as smuggler.

776
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: Yes, who was a huge financier of the uprise.

777
00:57:49,239 --> 00:57:52,079
Speaker 3: Even though during the Republic he played on both sides.

778
00:57:52,159 --> 00:57:54,960
But it was when the socialist went after him that

779
00:57:55,039 --> 00:57:58,519
he said, oh, I gotta save myself from these people.

780
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 2: March is into a Spanish surname, is it?

781
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 3: He is from Baliaris That's right? Yes, and important to

782
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,679
know he was originally a pig farmer.

783
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 4: It is.

784
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 3: It is incredible that he got to the top of

785
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,960
a Spanish economy just as a pig farmer.

786
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:32,079
Speaker 2: Amazing. So there's all this stuff about the radicals collaborating.

787
00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: And by the way, the radicals here, it doesn't mean radicals,

788
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,519
it means the center right.

789
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,159
Speaker 2: The yes, the.

790
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:46,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, because a lot of people think, oh, well the radicals,

791
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,000
they are radical, but no, it's just a center right.

792
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 2: But it's interesting because I had read some of his

793
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,199
speeches from like thirty years prior, and he was very radical.

794
00:58:57,239 --> 00:59:00,880
He was talking about like raping nuns and like burning

795
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:05,480
the country to the ground and stuff like that. Totally wild.

796
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:08,360
How as soon as as soon as he became a

797
00:59:08,559 --> 00:59:11,519
like a real serious political operator and manipulator.

798
00:59:11,679 --> 00:59:16,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, LaRue was a journalist, so it shouldn't surprise.

799
00:59:16,239 --> 00:59:20,039
Speaker 2: You all journeys.

800
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 3: Like I told you, almost everyone in the Second Republic

801
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,039
was a journalist, almost everyone except on the right wing

802
00:59:30,199 --> 00:59:33,519
everyone where all of them were lawyers.

803
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, that's a that's a.

804
00:59:38,239 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 4: Really good point. Was a lawyer.

805
00:59:41,559 --> 00:59:44,679
Speaker 3: Kill Reubles was a lawyer, Primo Riverta was a lawyer.

806
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,559
Manuel Falcone was a lawyer, The Count Rodethna was a lawyer.

807
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 4: Everyone was a lawyer. Incredible surprising.

808
00:59:53,840 --> 01:00:00,119
Speaker 2: Well, let's bring this home. I will go through some

809
01:00:00,199 --> 01:00:04,599
of the spiciest parts of this speech, and he says,

810
01:00:04,679 --> 01:00:09,920
here we go at that moment, everyone will unite against us,

811
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,400
but we will tell them if you do not allow

812
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,119
workers to obtain their demands through parliament, you are casting

813
01:00:16,199 --> 01:00:19,079
us out from the law. You're proving that the democratic

814
01:00:19,119 --> 01:00:23,119
institutions are unfit to achieve our goals because the working

815
01:00:23,119 --> 01:00:26,800
class will not be content with mere laws. From now on,

816
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,719
we will fight to take over political power. Don't let

817
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,599
our enemies twist our words, since I will speak frankly,

818
01:00:34,719 --> 01:00:39,400
we are going for all political power in making these statements.

819
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,960
We are not content with just having two socialist ministers

820
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,920
in the government benches. That is not enough to govern.

821
01:00:46,199 --> 01:00:47,880
And this comes from a man who has been a

822
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,639
minister for two and a half years. You don't rule

823
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,920
just by being a minister. You need more tools. Every

824
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:58,280
single minister must be socialist. We must take over the judiciary,

825
01:00:58,559 --> 01:01:01,760
which is in the hands of the bourgeois, every single

826
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,880
enforcement agency of the state, but not the current tools

827
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:08,079
created by the monarchy, but the ones created by our

828
01:01:08,159 --> 01:01:13,000
socialist regime. So he's essentially saying that the republic inherited

829
01:01:14,519 --> 01:01:17,320
tools of the monarchy, that are still run by the

830
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:24,239
bourgeoisie and their collaborators. For a proper socialist regime, we

831
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,440
must have every agency and every tool within our grasp.

832
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,119
And some will say that is nothing more than the

833
01:01:30,159 --> 01:01:32,960
dictatorship of the proletariat. But do we live in a

834
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,000
democracy today. Don't we live in a bourgeois dictatorship who

835
01:01:37,079 --> 01:01:41,079
owns the army, law enforcement, and all other government institutions.

836
01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:44,320
But the bourgeois even more, the bourgeois owned the machines,

837
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,079
the lands, the means of production, and when they see

838
01:01:47,079 --> 01:01:49,880
the working class rebel against their oppression, they have the

839
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,199
tools to doom us to starvation and poverty. That is

840
01:01:53,239 --> 01:01:56,559
why we declare we are not willing to continue this situation.

841
01:01:57,280 --> 01:01:59,719
We want to hold all political power, much like the

842
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,840
Booois have done until now. And don't anyone dare say

843
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:08,159
that the working class doesn't know how to rule. So

844
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:14,360
it is incredible, it is absolutely incredible that he that

845
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,519
he comes right out, and then he goes on to

846
01:02:16,519 --> 01:02:20,199
say we are attacked because we want to abolish private property,

847
01:02:20,239 --> 01:02:22,679
and they are right, we do not hide our intentions.

848
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,639
We will destroy the regime of private property. We are

849
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,800
attacked because we are the enemies of the family, and

850
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,880
we answer, they are the enemies of the family. They

851
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:35,920
destroy working families by forcing women and children to work

852
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,960
long hours, exploiting their fathers and husbands, and doing them

853
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,719
to starvation. We as socialists, wish families could be as

854
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:49,519
we believe they should be, free from economic burden. Pretty appealing, Yeah,

855
01:02:49,639 --> 01:02:54,800
very much, pretty appealing. And so you know, as you

856
01:02:54,880 --> 01:03:01,000
go through this, you know, he really, he really says

857
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,960
that everyone here is basically saying, if we're barred from parliament,

858
01:03:07,159 --> 01:03:11,280
we will turn against it. He says, our enemies have

859
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,440
already begun this war. Their voice Gil Roeblas says that

860
01:03:14,519 --> 01:03:17,119
if they are barred from parliament, they will turn against it,

861
01:03:17,159 --> 01:03:20,360
so be it. We respond, we are moving legally towards

862
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,599
the evolution of society. But if you wish so, we

863
01:03:23,639 --> 01:03:27,480
will make the revolution violently. This our enemies will say

864
01:03:27,599 --> 01:03:30,519
is inciting civil war. But let's be honest, we are

865
01:03:30,559 --> 01:03:33,960
already in a civil war. What else is the constant

866
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:38,639
war between employers and workers which takes place every day.

867
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,199
We are in the midst of a civil war. Let's

868
01:03:41,239 --> 01:03:50,239
not be blind to it. So, you know, despite everything

869
01:03:50,239 --> 01:03:52,079
else that he says, where he's like we just need

870
01:03:52,119 --> 01:03:55,199
to prepare and this is how we need to think

871
01:03:55,199 --> 01:04:02,719
about things, etc. But really, what he's saying, what I

872
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,039
think is most important, is that he's saying, we don't

873
01:04:06,079 --> 01:04:09,960
believe in the Republic. Our enemies don't believe in the Republic.

874
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,599
The only people who believe in the Republic don't really

875
01:04:13,639 --> 01:04:16,840
believe in the Republican are just using it to you know,

876
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:18,400
to manipulate.

877
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,119
Speaker 3: Us, or like I said, in the case of Athana,

878
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,360
is a vanity project.

879
01:04:24,519 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so like none of these people, none of

880
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:36,519
these people believed in the Republic. I just don't. I

881
01:04:36,559 --> 01:04:40,440
don't see a compelling case that there's like there was

882
01:04:40,639 --> 01:04:46,159
there were real ideological true believers who are willing to

883
01:04:46,239 --> 01:04:49,880
compromise at this point, I mean, who were promoting.

884
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,199
Speaker 3: The right, I mean at the beginning. At the beginning,

885
01:04:52,679 --> 01:04:56,639
the army was willing to give the republic a shot.

886
01:04:56,719 --> 01:05:03,960
But because the Republican politician didn't trust the generals and

887
01:05:04,119 --> 01:05:07,760
officers from the monarchy and tried to make them band

888
01:05:07,800 --> 01:05:11,199
to their will, they ended up pissing them off since

889
01:05:11,239 --> 01:05:19,000
the very start. Because remember the Republic got instituted because

890
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:24,360
the army sided with them. Just remember they were willing

891
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,280
to give it a shot, and they were essentially stabbed

892
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:27,800
in the back.

893
01:05:30,159 --> 01:05:32,840
Speaker 2: None of these people working in good faith with one another.

894
01:05:33,519 --> 01:05:35,360
That's like the biggest thing that jumps out to me.

895
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:38,679
Speaker 4: Yes, because.

896
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I could talk at length about what happened,

897
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:49,000
because there is a lot a huge web of intrigues

898
01:05:49,079 --> 01:05:53,639
between the politicians and the army during the Republic. And

899
01:05:54,519 --> 01:05:57,440
one thing is, of course, you wonder, okay, why did

900
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:02,159
the men that essentially swore obedience to the presence of

901
01:06:02,159 --> 01:06:06,440
the republic proclaim a coop the ta on two years

902
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,760
after after he essentially said Hail the Republic? Like you

903
01:06:12,119 --> 01:06:17,719
gotta think because on Urho essentially at first he was

904
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,599
obedient to the to the Republic, but the Republicans didn't

905
01:06:21,599 --> 01:06:26,719
trusted him and started closing his medic literary academies. They

906
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:32,480
they discharged him, they discharged him, they set him to reserve,

907
01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:36,480
they stripped him of rank, and I mean, you see

908
01:06:36,519 --> 01:06:39,679
that happening, and are you not going to be angry?

909
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:45,159
Speaker 2: Exactly, it's it's it's amazing.

910
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:49,559
Speaker 3: And they did the same with essentially almost all of

911
01:06:49,559 --> 01:06:55,280
the sublebated generals. They did the same to them. Then

912
01:06:55,320 --> 01:07:00,159
you wonder, okay, they hadn't coming because they pissed of

913
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:01,679
the people that they shouldn't.

914
01:07:05,079 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 2: It's it's they couldn't help themselves. Is It's like everyone

915
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:12,320
thought it was the all patriots go moment, you know,

916
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:15,880
and and all the different factions were competing with one another.

917
01:07:16,599 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 3: But you gotta you gotta think that. At first, the

918
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,840
army just came out of that period what they they

919
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,079
were at odds with the king, and they said, okay,

920
01:07:26,119 --> 01:07:29,360
we're going to give a shot to these guys if

921
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,519
they don't mess with us too much, because politicians before

922
01:07:33,639 --> 01:07:36,880
were messing a lot with the army. We're going to

923
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:40,159
give it a shot. And they discovered, unfortunately, that the

924
01:07:40,159 --> 01:07:43,559
politicians of the Republic were even worth than the ones

925
01:07:43,599 --> 01:07:49,639
before because between the religious laws, they also forced them

926
01:07:49,719 --> 01:07:56,440
to to swear allegiance to the Republic. They foreclosed military academies.

927
01:07:56,639 --> 01:08:04,440
They also raised the the requirements to access in certain

928
01:08:04,599 --> 01:08:06,760
ranks in the army, like you needed to have a

929
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:11,559
college degree to reach certain ranks. It was huge, and

930
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:19,600
of course they needn't like and also that is not

931
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:23,960
counting all the new people that the Republic and also

932
01:08:24,039 --> 01:08:27,039
the socialists and communists were shoveling in the army.

933
01:08:30,359 --> 01:08:31,039
Speaker 2: That makes sense.

934
01:08:31,239 --> 01:08:37,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really hope that people. You know, we're two hours,

935
01:08:37,079 --> 01:08:42,119
fifteen minutes into this, Karl and I have done hours

936
01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:46,039
on this subject, and I hope that people If people

937
01:08:46,079 --> 01:08:48,960
haven't figured it out by now, I hope they can,

938
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:52,479
you know, really figuring it out now. Why this is

939
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:56,359
a subject we're talking about because you know, I'm sitting

940
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:58,680
here and listening to you guys have a conversation to you,

941
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,600
guys who know a lot more about the subject than

942
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:04,119
I do, and I'm just going, well, that's that's today,

943
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:10,880
that's today exact, that's relevant to today, that's relevant to today. Okay,

944
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,520
So you know, I guess the question comes down to,

945
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:20,079
is you have this information, it's happened before you get

946
01:09:20,079 --> 01:09:23,159
an idea of where this can lead to, Well, what

947
01:09:23,159 --> 01:09:28,439
do you do about it? And you know that's probably

948
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:30,520
not something we want to talk about on a podcast,

949
01:09:32,199 --> 01:09:34,479
but you know, it's something that people have to start

950
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:35,000
thinking about.

951
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,159
Speaker 3: I mean, that is why I think this is the

952
01:09:39,279 --> 01:09:43,199
articles that I've been doing are a public service announcement.

953
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:45,640
Speaker 4: You know, it is.

954
01:09:46,159 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 3: It is an interesting period of time, but you have

955
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,239
to know, you have to know, and then you will.

956
01:09:52,079 --> 01:09:58,479
Speaker 2: See absolutely well, Thank you again for not only writing

957
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:01,399
these pieces, doing all the work that you do to

958
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:06,199
find the material through Spanish sources, which we're just constantly,

959
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,520
you know, reading everything that we can find about this topic,

960
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:14,319
but we're constantly finding new stuff just has never been

961
01:10:14,319 --> 01:10:17,159
in English, or or if it is, it's incredibly obscure

962
01:10:17,239 --> 01:10:18,479
and out of print.

963
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:22,359
Speaker 3: I mean, in some cases even in the Spanish is obscure,

964
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,399
and I sometimes can only find part of the text

965
01:10:26,399 --> 01:10:29,840
and not the full text. Like I've been trying to

966
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:34,840
find the instruction unity for serbadas the private instructions, which

967
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:41,760
were the the letter with the fundamentals for the sublivation.

968
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,359
I was trying to get them translated, but I only

969
01:10:45,399 --> 01:10:47,399
can find only can find.

970
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,359
Speaker 4: Parts of it, not the full text.

971
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:54,359
Speaker 2: It's a shame, very very interesting.

972
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 1: Well, it's still a valuable what you're doing here is valuable,

973
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:03,319
and yeah, we we appreciate it. You know, you can

974
01:11:03,720 --> 01:11:07,680
you can only machine translate so much, you know, you

975
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:11,800
have to be able to the idiom Idioms are the

976
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:15,720
hardest thing to figure out when you're translating, which is

977
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,159
why I like German is one of those languages it's

978
01:11:19,159 --> 01:11:21,680
almost impossible to translate into English.

979
01:11:22,159 --> 01:11:27,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, and I'm thankful that it's it's appreciated, it's

980
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:32,159
it really motivates, motivates me to keep going.

981
01:11:34,079 --> 01:11:39,159
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, Well, head on over to uh it's a

982
01:11:39,239 --> 01:11:44,680
Carl Substack. It's got it open somewhere right here. But

983
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,359
that was it called again Carl. I thought I had Carl.

984
01:11:47,279 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 2: All dot substack dot com. Yeah, a R L D

985
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,399
a h L dot substack dot com. And if worker

986
01:11:54,319 --> 01:11:57,960
is the author of an article, I always lead with that.

987
01:11:58,079 --> 01:12:02,399
But it's generally the now and then series is his series.

988
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:04,600
So we have another one coming up that I'll put

989
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:05,800
up this week.

990
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

991
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,199
Speaker 3: That also took me a while to make because I

992
01:12:10,279 --> 01:12:14,520
had to sift through quite a few a few things

993
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:20,279
while doing it. In some cases I had to like

994
01:12:20,399 --> 01:12:24,479
hunt for them for the news articles, because I knew

995
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,720
there were some of them and I wanted to get

996
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,359
them done, get them there.

997
01:12:31,279 --> 01:12:33,520
Speaker 2: Well, it's great that we have the Internet and not

998
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,760
only can we meet each other that way, but we

999
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:43,159
can find this incredibly important historical material. So yeah, thanks

1000
01:12:43,199 --> 01:12:46,439
again for your collaboration. Appreciate your time here. Well done,

1001
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,760
by the way, Thanks so much, and I look forward

1002
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:51,239
to working with you more.

1003
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 4: It will be my pleasure.

1004
01:12:54,199 --> 01:13:11,319
Speaker 1: All right, gentlemen, thank you very much. S.