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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show

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for the first time. Long overdue. Darryl Cooper, how are

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you doing, Drell?

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Speaker 2: Great man, It's great to be on here with you.

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Like I told you before the show, I'm a big fan,

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so yeah, a long time coming.

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Speaker 1: Same here, same here. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 2: So I'm pretty much a regular person. I grew up

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all over California, mostly in inner cities, from the Central

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Valley down to SoCal spent a little bit of time

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my high school and college years up in Montana, which

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was nice to get a different glimpse of that. I

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come from a family of veterans, and so I joined

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the Navy after I was done with college and did

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ten years doing Aaron ballistic missile work defense work, and

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then got out and worked as a DoD civilian for

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ten more years doing the same thing, basically Aaron ballistic

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missile defense engineering stuff. In the meantime, around twenty fifteen,

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I started doing a podcast just sort of on a lark. Really,

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you know, I was a fan of Dan Carlin's hardcore

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history back then, and obviously he takes six or eight

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months between episodes, and I would always bitch about that

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and pretty much all I do. You know, I moved

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around a lot when I was a kid, and then

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in the Navy, I moved around a lot, and so

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my continuity was always books, and so ever since i've

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been a little kid, I just you know, I've had

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my nose in a book pretty much during all of

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my spare time every day. And you know, my girlfriend

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at the time and my friends were tired of hearing

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about the books that I recently read, and so they

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told me to go start a podcast, and so I did.

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I did that for a few years. You know, these

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are I do like long form five six seven hour

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long episodes, sometimes really deep dives on historical topics, and

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they're not for everybody, and I didn't really expect anybody

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to listen to it, but it's really kind of taken

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off and that's been really cool. And so last year,

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you know, I kind of was facing a point where,

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you know, I'm starting a family now, and I just

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had to realize that. You know, when I was at

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my DoD job, I was literally waking up two hours

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early before I had to get ready for work to

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read and write. I was reading and writing during my

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lunch hour. I was spending my evenings doing that just

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to get this podcast done. And that wasn't gonna fly

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anymore once, you know, I got a little screaming infant

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to deal with, plus work, and so I had to

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make a choice and decided to cut the strands of

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the safety net with a government job, and now I'm

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able to do the podcasting thing full time. I do

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a second podcast with my friend Jocko Willink, who's he's

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a retired nav CL commander. People may have heard of him.

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He's a he's an awesome dude. And we have one

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called The Unraveling as well. And so, yeah, that's that's

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what I'm doing. And what's the name of podcast, oh

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martyr made. Yeah, I'm terrible at advertising.

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Speaker 1: Well, the thing I really enjoy is you'll talk about

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things like the Bolshevik Revolution, and you'll you'll talk about

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things that are historic, but also you're not scared to

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talk about things that people might, I don't know, you know,

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good respectable people might roll their eyes at you know.

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So there was this there was this episode you did

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and it was about this vast conspiracy theory that you

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know has been put to bed and it was this

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thing called Pizzagate, and it was such a stupid conspiracy

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theory that like Ben Swan lost his job and had

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to go into hiding for a year after he reported

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on it on an Atlanta news station. I used to

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live in Atlanta, and uh, yeah, you know, and yeah,

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so why why did you look into this this silly

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conspiracy theory?

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Speaker 2: So I was doing a short little series for my

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sub stack followers on Jeffrey Epstein and focusing on the

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you know, the what looked like connections to us and

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Israeli intelligence and kind of deep diving on that in

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a way that anybody, you know, I know, you've had

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Ryan on a few times and stuff. Anybody who's listening

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to him isn't going to get anything new out of

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the first episode and a half or so, probably.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Ryan's basically done all the work for Yeah,

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He's done the work for all of us. And there's

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even somebody else out there who's like making a career

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off of Ryan's work and not really.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's kind of unfortunate because you know, it's like, well,

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this is this is always tough for someone like me

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who has you know, sort of mainstream normy connections with

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people where you know, it's hard to just say that, like,

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you know, I got this from this source Ryan Dawson

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over here, X Y, and Z just me. Then it

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would just be kind of like whatever, I would eat that,

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no problem. I don't have an issue with it at all.

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But it affects other people that I work with and

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so forth, and so it becomes a little more difficult.

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And it's unfortunate because, like you said, he's done all

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the work, and it's really impossible to talk about the

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issue without ripping him off a little bit, just because

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he did all the work, Like that's who did it,

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you know, and so he was credit for sure.

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Speaker 1: How was it making fun of you? I'm pretty sure

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you knew who I was making fun of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I do. Yeah, And you know, it's unfortunate.

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But uh, there's another example. You talk about Ben's Swan

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getting run off the rails. You know, he's another person,

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you know, got the full Alex Jones times ten treatment,

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you know, and he's not somebody you know, Ryan Dawson's

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not some dude who had millions and millions of people

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who were following him and they were like, we got

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to do something, but still they thought it was important

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enough to basically go as hard on him as they've

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gone on just about anybody, which is, you know, remarkable

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in itself.

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Speaker 1: So you started looking into this Pizzagate thing, and you,

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I don't know, it just seems so silly, right of course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the most ridiculous thing that you've ever heard about.

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I mean, there's a satan an elite satanic pedophile ring

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being run out of the basement of a pizza shop

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in Washington, DC. It's the dumbest thing you've ever heard,

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for sure. And so I kind of approached the episode,

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you know, after doing the first one on Epstein and

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his intelligence connections, the second one where I step back

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and I just talked about several other cases over the

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last several decades where things like you know, the Finders Group,

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things like the Kincora Boys Home in Northern Ireland. There

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are a lot of instances where there seem to be,

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you know, instances of childhood sexual abuse, child sexual abuse

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where there are just fingerprints of intelligence agencies all around it.

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And obviously, when you're talking about intelligence agencies, it's like

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talking about the mafia. Everything's deniable, everything is circumstantial evidence.

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That's just the nature of the beast. But at a

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certain point you start to say, you know, if any

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one of these other cases is true, well then it's

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not unrealistic anymore, and it's more likely that the second

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one's going to be true, and it makes it more

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likely that the third and the rest of them could

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very well be true. Once you know that three or

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four of these things are true. You know that British

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intelligence was monitoring the Kincora Boys Home because they knew

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that there were a bunch of powerful people coming through

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there having sex with children they could later blackmail and control.

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Once you know that has happened, then it's not really

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you know, like I think when most people heard, you know,

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Ale's Acosta, Trump's labor secretary who was the prosecutor of

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Epstein back in his first case, say on the record,

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you know, to his interviewers when he was getting vetted

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for the labor secretary job, that he was told to

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back off Epstein because quote, he belonged to intelligence. Like

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in the world where I come from, and I'm not

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a journalist, maybe I should go to journalism school and

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they correct me on this, But I would think that

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there would be reporters camped out on his lawn and

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every time he poked his head out of his house,

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there'd be a microphone in his face saying, excuse me, sir,

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what did you mean when you said that Jeffrey Epstein

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was connected to intelligence? Obviously that's not what's going on,

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And in fact, the complete opposite is what has been

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going on, where there's a very obvious effort, just a

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full spectrum effort to suppress the story, to keep questions,

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just very obvious questions from being asked. And so yeah,

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that was the second episode, and then in the third episode,

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I just wanted to kind of tie it all together.

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And I really wasn't sure when I started it. I

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didn't really plan on talking about Pizzagate exactly. But what

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I found was it's a good window into the into

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the culture in Washington, d C. And it's not just DC.

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It's the same in London. It's the same, and just

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a lot of elite circles, whether it's you know, business,

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you know, when you start picking through the Pizzagate conspiracy

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theory and think about how did this thing start, how

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did it get going? You know, I kind of remember,

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like back in the day as I was watching on

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the chans and read it and everything, watching this thing

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as it was unfolding there at the beginning, and you know,

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it starts out in twenty sixteen because John Podesta, Hillary

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Clinton's campaign manager, gets his emails leaked and people are

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going through them and finding that, you know, normal stuff

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that the Clinton campaign rob Bernie Sanders and work with

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the DNC to like set that up, all that kind

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of stuff, and people are arguing over whether this was

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Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump working together and so forth.

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But then some people came across some emails that really

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didn't seem to make any kind of sense if you

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just read them in a literal way, right, Like there

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were things like somebody writing John Podesta and saying like, hey,

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after the party from last week, we found a handkerchief

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with a map that looks pizza related, like do you

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want it back? And he says no or whatever. There's

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a bunch of little weird things like that that people

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are like, well, that doesn't even make any sense, Like

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why would there be a pizza related map on a

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handkerchief and why would it be important enough that he

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would want to like you know, return it to him whatever.

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And so they see that, and I believe this part.

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I wasn't around for somebody who's who was around for

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it told me that this was how the pizza thing

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got got started. Was it on the chans back in

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the day, like several years ago. I think people would

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come in and sometimes try to troll the board or

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get it in trouble by posting child porn or what

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looked like child porn, and so to not trip the filters,

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they would call it cheese pizza CP, and that that's

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where the pizza association came from. I'm not one hundred

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percent sure if that's true or not. That's what somebody

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who was there kind of told me. But the point

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is they read they started reading these strange emails as

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code where pizza is porn, cheese pizza's child porn, maps

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and handkerchiefs mean X, Y and Z having to do

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it this weird stuff. And then of course there's thousands

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and thousands of emails, and so if you do a

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search and you look for any time the word pizza

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shows up or map or handkerchief or whatever, it turns

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out that there's a bunch of emails in there that

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look pretty strange if you apply this cipher to it.

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And so that's how the whole thing kind of got started,

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when you know. So, yeah, that's how it got started.

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And I believe the next thing that happened, well, people

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started doing more research once they got on the trail

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of it. Somebody would bring up, for example, you know

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Andrew Breitbart's tweet from back and I want to say, like,

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what was it twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen or something

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than that.

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Speaker 1: I think it was twenty eleven.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so all the way back in twenty eleven, and

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what does he say, how Prague guru John Podesta isn't

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a household name as a world class underage sex slave

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op cover upper defending unspeakable dregs escapes me. It's like, okay, look,

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Andrew Breitbart for sure is like a bomb thrower. You know,

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he's out there like starting fights or whatever. But he's

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also a wealthy businessman who's got to worry about things

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like libel and slander suits and so coming out and

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saying something like that is that's pretty serious. And he

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never backed down from it, and you know, it's almost

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as if he was like daring Podesta to take him

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into court and go do discovery or something. You know,

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some people found that because they're talking about John Podesta,

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these are his emails, and they go back years ago,

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go and find you know, Andrew Breitbart basically accusing him

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of running an underage sex slave operation. And then after

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Anthony Weiner got busted for texting sexting with an underage girl,

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Breitbart had been out there saying that this was going on,

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that there was a scandal out there for a long time,

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and he finally got vindicated, and he was on an

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episode of Red Eye. I think it was a great

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Gutfeld and they're talking about this and you know, he's

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obviously very excited, and Greg Guttfeld says something like, you know,

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he mentioned something about ping pong, and Andrew Breitbart interrupts him

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as he's like in the middle of a sentence, and

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he goes, huh, why would you switch the subject to

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the sport of ping pong? And the guy's like, Greg

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Gutfeld says, you know, you know how it is, and

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he's like, yeah, you're weird like that, like in a

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very kind of knowing tone of voice, very strange. Well,

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the next thing, people found in those emails was stuff

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about this place in DC, this pizza place. It is

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called comet Ping Pong Pizza. And people might remember that

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from the news because a dude with an AR fifteen

257
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showed up there to search the place for, you know,

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a sex dungeon in the basement. Comet Ping Pong Pizza.

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You know it was. I mean, it's something again, like

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the as you go through all of this stuff, it's

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all it all sounds so ridiculous, and maybe the whole

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thing is completely ridiculous, like the actual story once you

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tie it all together, but when you take all the

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little bits of it, you know, comet Ping Pong pizzas

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run by a guy named Jane's alaphontis. So yeah, and.

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Speaker 1: Your tweet, your tweet this morning.

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Speaker 2: Is that something else or what I mean, Like, I don't,

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I mean, Aliphantis is a Greek name. It's a common

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Greek name, so it's fine. But like the fact that

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Jean Leon fonts it's almost spelled the exact same way,

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and it means I like children or I love children.

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It's very strange. I don't even know if that's his

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real name. If it is, then it's just a huge coincidence.

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If it's not, then you know, throw them in jail.

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And so this guy's a pizza place owner in Washington,

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d C. Place called Comet Ping Pong Pizza and he

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is listed in GQ magazine as one of the fifty

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most powerful people in Washington, d C. Which is a

279
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little strange. He used to be the boyfriend of David Brock,

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the founder of Media Matters back in the day that

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was that was years ago. And so as there people

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start going through investigating this comic Ping Pong Pizza place.

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They thought it was weird that Breitbart had had that

284
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sort of weird exchange about Ping Pong, And they start

285
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investigating this place a little and they have musical acts

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that will come and perform. This is a place that

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is advertised for children, and so as a place for kids,

288
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bring your kids to this place. It's a fun place. Well,

289
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they have these acts, these musical acts that come through

290
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that are sort of like the best way I can

291
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describe it is that it's sort of a weird surrealist

292
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like David Lynch meets Pink Flamingos kind of aesthetic where

293
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it's sort of this trashy but like surrealistic creepy sort

294
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of vibe that you get they would. There's videos, music

295
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videos and promo videos that a couple of these bands

296
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have cut that we know we're playing there because they

297
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were on advertisements. And one of them is called, oh gosh,

298
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what is the one called? I know one of them

299
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,600
is called sex Stains, and then there's another one called well,

300
00:16:39,639 --> 00:16:41,799
the lead singer is called Majestic Ape. I can't remember

301
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,639
the name of the band off the top of me.

302
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,440
It's been a while since I've really looked hard into

303
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,519
this stuff, but you know, the one there's they're they're

304
00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:52,200
on stage joking about pedophilia. They're joking about pedophilia and

305
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:58,000
their songs, and then this other band, sex Stains, that's

306
00:16:58,039 --> 00:17:00,000
performed there. They have a music video that you can

307
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,359
go watch on YouTube, and it takes place this music video.

308
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Most of it in like a child's nursery basically, and

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there's big and large toys and blocks and various things around,

310
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:19,480
and there's this very prominently featured throughout the video is

311
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,880
this large block, multicolored block, and on one side of it,

312
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the side that's always facing the camera, is this symbol

313
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,519
that looks basically like a triangular spiral like it's a

314
00:17:31,559 --> 00:17:34,920
spiral but in the shape of a triangle, right, And

315
00:17:35,599 --> 00:17:40,640
turns out that there is a released FBI document looks

316
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,599
like it's maybe like a training document or something that

317
00:17:43,319 --> 00:17:47,079
got released that you can go find this on the

318
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,039
internet as well. It says symbols and logos used by

319
00:17:50,039 --> 00:17:54,119
pedophiles to identify sexual preferences. And then it shows several examples,

320
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,319
some of them drawn, some of them on coins or

321
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,519
rings or amulets wear around your neck that are that

322
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,079
exact symbol, that triangular spiral thing that apparently this is

323
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:11,319
one of the ways that pedophiles expressed their proclivities to

324
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,359
one another, like on the downlow, I suppose. And so

325
00:18:14,759 --> 00:18:18,079
at the end of that music video, the lead singer

326
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,519
of the band is kind of she's got her hands

327
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out in like this weird position. I don't know what

328
00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:29,519
she's doing, almost some sort of like anyway she's she's

329
00:18:29,559 --> 00:18:33,279
reaching out directly toward this symbol. It's like the only

330
00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:36,039
thing really that's prominent in the thing in the foreground

331
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there is the lead singer and this big block with

332
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,079
that symbol, and she's facing it and basically obviously her

333
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,359
attention is on it and that's how the music video ends,

334
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,440
after this thing has been prominently placed throughout the entire video,

335
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,400
and so people think that's very strange. People think it's

336
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,680
strange that two doors down from Comet Ping Pong Pizza

337
00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:58,119
was a place called besta Pizza and that the logo

338
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of that place was a pizza slice, which is in

339
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,319
the form of a triangle that was done up like

340
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,440
a spiral, just like that symbol, the exact same thing.

341
00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:11,359
They changed the logo a few weeks after all this

342
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,519
stuff started popping up on the Internet and the place

343
00:19:13,599 --> 00:19:16,119
is closed now, I think, And so that was all

344
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,559
very strange. The guy James alafontis the owner, you know.

345
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:24,599
People found his Instagram page and the avatar that he

346
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,000
used for his Instagram page was a statue of Antonis,

347
00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:32,559
who was the teenage boy lover of the emperor Roman

348
00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:37,480
Emperor Hadrian. On his Instagram page, there were a lot

349
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:40,880
of pictures that in comments that if you just took

350
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,240
him out of took him out of context or very strange.

351
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,480
A child who's like taped to a table and jokes

352
00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:52,720
about things that could be interpreted that way. And so

353
00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:56,279
people think this is all very strange, especially when they're

354
00:19:56,279 --> 00:20:00,279
already listening to what Andrew Breitbart said, and there you know,

355
00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:02,759
they're already kind of three quarters of the way down

356
00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:08,839
the rabbit hole. Well, then somebody discovers an email that

357
00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:14,200
involves this. This it's an invitation from this performance artist

358
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:21,920
called Marina Abramovic, and she has an event called Spirit Cooking.

359
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,240
And everybody's probably heard of this, like at least in name,

360
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,960
but for those who haven't, John and Tony Pizzet Podesta

361
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,079
his brother were invited personally by Marina Abramovic to come

362
00:20:34,079 --> 00:20:36,640
to this Spirit Cooking event. And what it is is

363
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,759
it's a dinner that takes place in a multi roomed

364
00:20:39,839 --> 00:20:45,240
art installation that is just it's I mean, if you

365
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,039
were to tell somebody that this was some sort of

366
00:20:49,559 --> 00:20:52,440
a devil worship like ritual or something, I don't think

367
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,319
they would change much about it. Like there's white walls,

368
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,880
and the walls are covered with really cryptic, weird pre

369
00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:05,000
be messages about drinking fresh breast milk on earthquake nights,

370
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,839
a lot of sort of art school like edge Lord bullshit,

371
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,839
but it's written in pigs blood up on the walls.

372
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,680
In one of the corners, there's an effigy of an

373
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,880
infant with a bucket of pigs blood splashed all over it.

374
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,720
There's little dolls that are, you know, positioned like they're copulating.

375
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,039
And in the meal, the people who are there to

376
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,799
participate in this thing, they drink things that are they're

377
00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:33,880
supposed to pretend or human blood or semen or breast milk.

378
00:21:34,759 --> 00:21:37,160
In another spirit cooking event that took place. You could

379
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,960
find these pictures on the internet with like Lady Gaga

380
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,039
and Gwen Stefani, a lot of other people like this.

381
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:48,000
You know, they're there with like a naked body a person,

382
00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:51,200
a real person, lying in a tub of what's supposed

383
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,519
to be blood, and they're pretending to be a corpse

384
00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:56,519
and people are eating off of them. A lot of

385
00:21:56,599 --> 00:22:00,200
just very weird, strange stuff, right, And so people we'll

386
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,039
see and Abrama Vic herself, I mean, you can go

387
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,519
find you know, her pictures on the internet, and she's

388
00:22:05,559 --> 00:22:07,720
got pictures of herself all in red holding up a

389
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,880
bloody goat's head, another one with a snake around her

390
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,759
head and neck and in her mouth. She was apparently

391
00:22:13,839 --> 00:22:16,839
friends with that Brazilian cult leader John of God, who

392
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,680
is running a sex slave operation down there you can

393
00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:21,599
kind of forgive her for that. I guess Oprah and

394
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,680
a million other people were apparently good buddies with that guy,

395
00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:29,480
so surprise, surprise. But you get to this and people,

396
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,599
you know, I start asking questions, right, and so people

397
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,920
start tying all this stuff together. They say, okay, there

398
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,160
are you know, there's the code word emails that are

399
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,559
telling us that there's something to do with pedophilia going.

400
00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:44,759
And then they take it out and they say, okay,

401
00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:48,079
now there's this pizza place involved, and this guy's connected

402
00:22:48,079 --> 00:22:49,880
to a bunch of other people, and so now it's

403
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,640
this sort of sprawling pedophile ring. And then they discover

404
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,920
the spirit cooking thing and they say, okay, this is

405
00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,240
actually a ritualistic, satanic elite pedophile ring. And that's kind

406
00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:05,519
of where you get to at this point. It got

407
00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:12,599
really fun when people started looking into John Podesta's brother,

408
00:23:13,319 --> 00:23:18,279
Tony Podesta. So Tony Podesta and John Podesta, you know,

409
00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:22,480
Podesta's both of these guys like they're those you know,

410
00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:24,920
there's like a whole class of these people who never

411
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:28,559
run for office, they never run a government agency or

412
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,720
anything like that, but they just always seem to be

413
00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:34,599
around somehow you know, they're always there whenever you like.

414
00:23:34,599 --> 00:23:37,039
Speaker 1: Guys who owned pizza shops and get or like in

415
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:37,640
the top.

416
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 2: Fifty, right exactly. And so John Podesta was friends with

417
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,400
Bill Clinton going back to the early seventies. They worked

418
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,880
for the same senator together and he remained in that circle.

419
00:23:51,079 --> 00:23:53,480
And in nineteen eighty eight, he and his brother Tony,

420
00:23:54,079 --> 00:23:56,559
right as Bill Clinton is kind of deciding he's going

421
00:23:56,599 --> 00:23:59,960
to run for president, John and his brother Tony Podesta

422
00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,279
to start the Podesta Group, which, up until it closed

423
00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:06,799
a few years ago right after Hillary Clinton lost the presidency,

424
00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:12,680
was certainly one of maybe the most powerful Democrat side

425
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,640
lobbying firm in Washington, very very connected because these are

426
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,319
people who are connected to the Clinton kind of operation

427
00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:22,079
very very closely, and you know that's been running the

428
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,759
show for a long time on the Democrat side. And

429
00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:28,039
so they started that up in nineteen eighty eight, and

430
00:24:28,079 --> 00:24:31,200
then John Podesta stepped away in nineteen ninety two to

431
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,319
go work for Bill Clinton, and he worked for him

432
00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:36,119
throughout his presidency, eventually got to be his chief of staff.

433
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,279
Gets done with the Clinton administration, and I think two

434
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:43,599
thousand and three he started the Center for American progress.

435
00:24:43,599 --> 00:24:46,400
And then twenty sixteen he's running Hillary Clinton's campaign, so

436
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,960
he's just very involved in that whole circle. And this

437
00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:53,559
whole time, his brother Tony now is running the lobbying

438
00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:56,240
group by himself because you know, I think you have

439
00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:58,480
to do it that way for conflicts of interest reasons.

440
00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:01,319
But they still work closely together obviously, and you know,

441
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,279
it's it's a everybody kind of knows what's going on, right.

442
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:07,920
And so it turns out that Tony Pedesta is a

443
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:13,759
big art collector. And in twenty fourteen there was a

444
00:25:13,799 --> 00:25:18,559
profile of his house in a Washington society magazine called

445
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,880
Washington Life, and they profile his house and some of

446
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,440
his art. He's a well known art collector, I mean

447
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,920
a very very big, like multimillion dollar, you know, pieces

448
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,079
of art kind of thing, and they profile some of

449
00:25:32,079 --> 00:25:35,720
the stuff he's got in his house. The first thing

450
00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:38,640
that you notice is or that people noticed, was the

451
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:43,440
giant statue. It's like a golden colored like bronze statue

452
00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:47,200
all shined up that is a human, a headless human,

453
00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:52,400
basically in a full backward arch. And it's called the

454
00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:56,200
Arch of Hysteria and it's by an artist called Louise

455
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,119
Bourgeois and people. I don't know who found this. It

456
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,000
wasn't me, but somebody pointed out that there is a

457
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,240
picture that is a public of the aftermath of one

458
00:26:07,279 --> 00:26:12,599
of the serial killer in Cannibal, Jeffrey Dahmer's Victims, and

459
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,519
he took a picture of it because he would play

460
00:26:14,559 --> 00:26:16,599
with the corpses and do various things sometimes and take

461
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,039
pictures of him where he had the corpse in pretty

462
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,400
much the exact same position that this statue is depicting.

463
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,400
And this statue she did this a year after all

464
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,440
the Dahmer stuff became public. Now, Louis Bourgeois, apparently there

465
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,799
are sketches in books going back a long time ago

466
00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:38,279
where she was drawing this thing, so like, that's probably

467
00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:40,599
not where the concept came from. But when people noticed that,

468
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,359
obviously it continued to throw jet fuel on this fire. Well,

469
00:26:46,319 --> 00:26:48,880
then people started to look at some of the paintings

470
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,359
he had on his walls, and these you can't really

471
00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:55,279
explain away like that, Oh I should mention, by the way,

472
00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:58,119
Louis Bourgeois, she's also got like there are sketches and

473
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,960
drawings that have been made public that they show the

474
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,799
two of them in particular where it's like a page

475
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,079
or a canvas with a line drawn down the middle

476
00:27:09,079 --> 00:27:11,279
of it, and a little boy and a full grown

477
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,319
man with father and son written beneath them, kind of

478
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,079
holding on to the middle line like it's a pole

479
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,119
or reaching out toward each other something, and they both

480
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,279
have erections. And so that's a little strange, right, Not

481
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,960
everybody draws stuff like that in their spare time. And

482
00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:31,599
so people started looking at the paintings on his walls,

483
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,440
and these are pictures that are in the magazine profile, right,

484
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,920
So these are things that he I mean, if I

485
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,880
had an art collection with a bunch of pictures of

486
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,559
what we're about to talk about, I would probably take

487
00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:49,000
those down before company came over. I would certainly take

488
00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:51,599
them down before the photographers showed up to profile my

489
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,440
house in a society magazine. But apparently that's not something

490
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,960
he felt was really necessary. And so there are a

491
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,039
couple of paintings by this artist named Bill Yanna Jorjyevik

492
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,960
or Djerjivic, I'm not sure she's Serbian artist. And the

493
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,440
one you see in his living room, I'm looking at

494
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,160
it right now. He's got, you know, a big white

495
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,319
couch a nice you know rich man in DC's living room,

496
00:28:14,759 --> 00:28:17,039
and in the background there's this painting and you can

497
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,160
make it out pretty clearly. And the full resolution version

498
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,440
of this painting is available, you know online, you can

499
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,839
just google it Billiyana Jerjievic. You'll find all this stuff.

500
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,960
And it's a little girl with a sort of weird,

501
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,440
deformed looking face and black sort of almost dead eyes,

502
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:38,759
sitting on a stool with a short skirt up against

503
00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:43,000
like what looks like a tile bathroom wall or something

504
00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:46,960
like that. And that's one of them. It's like, Okay,

505
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,519
it's a little creepy. It's creepy and weird and not

506
00:28:49,599 --> 00:28:52,680
something I would have on my wall, but okay, whatever. Well,

507
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,839
then there's another picture of another room, kind of a

508
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,319
sitting room with an orange couch and a yellow chair

509
00:28:57,559 --> 00:28:59,359
in a blue chair. And there are two more of

510
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,720
this artist paintings from this same series. One of them

511
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:05,440
is this huge painting. It's about maybe looks like it's

512
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,640
about five or six feet tall by eight or ten

513
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,960
feet why it dominates the room. And it's another one

514
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,119
that you can find online. And what it depicts it's

515
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:20,440
called synchronized swimming and it's got a bunch of young

516
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,880
girls dressed in you know, different ways, laying in a

517
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,359
circle on the bottom of a swimming of an empty

518
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,079
swimming pool, and they've got that same sort of dead

519
00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:34,519
look in their eyes. They look like corpses, most of them.

520
00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:38,480
And that's the giant painting that he's got dominating this room,

521
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,000
in this other walls, a bunch of young girls that

522
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:44,000
look dead lying on the bottom of a swimming pool. Well,

523
00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:47,279
kitty corner to that is another one of these paintings.

524
00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:49,559
This one's about poster size, from the same series, and

525
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:54,440
this one is unmistakably two young girls dead, lying dead

526
00:29:54,559 --> 00:29:58,000
in a pool or a pond, rather a pond or

527
00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:00,680
river or something like that, and they're laying on their backs,

528
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,440
just looking up at the camera and their their their

529
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,359
corpses like there's really no question about it. And so

530
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:12,279
this same artist has done has done a bunch of

531
00:30:12,359 --> 00:30:15,160
others that weren't on Tony Pedesta's walls, and these pictures

532
00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:16,960
of this same series, a lot of them with the

533
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,799
tile backgrounds. One of them, there's a little girl in

534
00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:22,519
a striped white and yellow shirt in her panties up

535
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:25,279
against the wall and it's like picturing her from behind.

536
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,559
There's another one with a little boy and just his

537
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,839
underwear who's bound and tied up hanging against a tile wall.

538
00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:35,920
There's another one with a with a little girl who's

539
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,759
lying dead in a pond. Another one with a girl

540
00:30:38,799 --> 00:30:41,799
with some sort of a deformed face holding a dead baby.

541
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:47,240
And so this is uh, you know. The the artist

542
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:55,240
Billiana Jerjovic, she's been interviewed before in a in an

543
00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:59,839
art magazine and she said herself that things that she

544
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:03,559
had read about pedophilia or inspirations for this series of artwork.

545
00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:07,240
And so that's certainly the association that's being made here.

546
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,119
And it's very obvious in a lot of these things

547
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,480
that it's depicting abuse of children. That's really what the

548
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,720
theme is of all of these. One of my buddies,

549
00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:17,920
after I put that podcast down, pointed out to me

550
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,759
he's a guy who he worked in a slaughterhouse for many,

551
00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:28,559
many years, and I kind of looked at all the

552
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,759
tile backgrounds on these things and figured there was like

553
00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:34,960
a shower kind of swimming pool type thing. He pointed

554
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,119
out that that's how all slaughterhouses pretty much look on

555
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,119
the inside, and he sent me a ton of pictures,

556
00:31:40,119 --> 00:31:45,000
and sure enough, it's just tiled walls, tiled everything. And

557
00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:48,319
then I realized that one of the other paintings that

558
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,079
Djerdjievik has as part of this part of this series

559
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,319
is three or four butchers wearing hoods over their head

560
00:31:58,799 --> 00:32:02,759
with the butcher's long gloves and like high boots and

561
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,039
butcher's aprons, and they're all standing around in one of

562
00:32:06,039 --> 00:32:08,880
those tiled rooms. And so it seems like she probably

563
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,799
made that connection too. And what we're looking at in

564
00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:14,279
some of these paintings is a bunch of kids in

565
00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:21,160
really you know again like creepy, abuse oriented pictures in

566
00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:24,240
slaughter in a slaughter hus And so it's seems like

567
00:32:24,279 --> 00:32:29,440
what we're probably looking at, maybe maybe not in People

568
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,559
found an interview with Tony Podesta and he was being

569
00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:38,839
asked about some of his other favorite artists, and he

570
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,480
listed a sculptor named Patricia Piccinini as one of his

571
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,559
very favorite artists. And I don't know, it's like a

572
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:51,440
sculpture like she does, you know, the plastic arts of

573
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,680
one kind or another. Basically, she makes these statues that

574
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,880
look like concept art for like a surrealist horror movie.

575
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,799
Basically most of them are the vast majority of them

576
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:07,319
involved children with monsters or demons of one kind or

577
00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:10,519
another leering at them over like leering over them as

578
00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:14,279
they sleep in their beds. There's one with this creepy

579
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,400
monster with its long claws around standing on a bed

580
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,400
with this what looks like maybe a four year old

581
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,799
girl with its claws around her. You know, a lot

582
00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:28,359
of there's a lot of imagery of like orifices that

583
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,039
look like vaginas or anuses or mouths with things coming

584
00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:34,440
out of them and kids poking at them or playing

585
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,839
with them. There's a weird one of a deformed child

586
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,799
on top of like a horned goat. There's another one

587
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,599
where there's this weird kind of pig monster with big

588
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,599
pustules coming off of its back, with more monsters coming

589
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:54,519
out of those, and it's behind this child, spooning him

590
00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:58,359
in bed, and so that's like, uh again, this is

591
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,440
There's another one where there's a child trapped in a

592
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,000
big spider's nest that with a bunch of eggs that

593
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:07,559
are about to add So just creepy, weird stuff involving kids, right,

594
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,079
And this is somebody that Tony Podesta listed is one

595
00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:14,559
of his very favorite, very favorite artists. Well, then in

596
00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:19,000
another interview he was asked the same question, and this

597
00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:23,840
is where you just start to wonder kind of what's

598
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,400
going on. Here is another one of his favorite artists

599
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,039
that he mentioned. And I'm sure he's got a lot

600
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:31,320
of favorite artists, but when he was asked the question,

601
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:33,159
these are the ones he thought of, and so that's

602
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:36,559
probably relevant. Is this woman named Kim Noble, who's a

603
00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:41,800
British woman who spent most of her life in institutions

604
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,280
like asylums. She's schizophrenic and has dissociative identity disorder, multiple

605
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,760
personality disorder, and several of her multiple personalities are artists.

606
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:58,760
And I'll put that in quotes because so Kim Noble

607
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:07,039
was repeatedly, viciously, violently sexually abused for at least two

608
00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:10,000
years between the ages of one and three years old,

609
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,039
and the damage that that did to her mind is

610
00:35:14,079 --> 00:35:17,039
again on display. She spent her entire life in institutions

611
00:35:17,079 --> 00:35:19,400
and the content of her paintings are not something that

612
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,360
she's innocent of. This she should not be held accountable.

613
00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:26,280
This is a woman who's sick, obviously, but these drawings,

614
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,079
these paintings that she does they're sort of scratched out

615
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:33,239
stick figure kind of paintings, but it's everything's very clear

616
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,679
in all of them exactly what's going on. It all

617
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:43,440
depicts extreme violent sexual abuse of children by multiple adults.

618
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,679
In many of these things, there's kids tied to chairs

619
00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:50,000
with adults with whips standing over them, while another child's

620
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,199
on its knees covering its ears. There's another one with

621
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,519
a little girl with adults surrounding her blindfolded, and it

622
00:35:57,519 --> 00:35:59,599
looks like her spirits kind of lifting up and leaving

623
00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:03,519
her body. There's another one with kids hanging and then

624
00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:08,000
standing in line in front of this adult who is

625
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,000
sitting on a chair with a big smile on his

626
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:13,039
face and he's got his hands down forcing the child

627
00:36:13,119 --> 00:36:17,079
to give him oral sex. You can look all these

628
00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:20,199
up on the internet. They're hard to look at, especially

629
00:36:20,199 --> 00:36:21,920
when you know the history where they're coming from. There's

630
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,800
another one where, i mean, there's just a bunch of

631
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,239
adults standing around a bed and there's a child laying

632
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,480
on it and there's an adult crouched down on top

633
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,800
of the child having sex with the child. There's ones

634
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,920
where there's a bunch of adults standing around with children

635
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,800
on their knees in front of them and they're urinating

636
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,440
in the kid's mouths. This is one of the artists

637
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,199
that Tony Podesta listed as one of his very favorite artists.

638
00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:50,480
And when you think about, Okay, all this is sick,

639
00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:54,719
but what we're really talking about here is a woman

640
00:36:55,039 --> 00:36:57,719
who had all of this stuff done to her for

641
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,639
years when she was a small child, who's mind was

642
00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:05,159
shattered by that experience, and who now depicts this stuff,

643
00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:09,039
you know, just sort of again like she's not responsible

644
00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:12,599
for the content of these things. And the idea of

645
00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:18,159
some guy like Tony Podesta sitting around with a bunch

646
00:37:18,159 --> 00:37:20,920
of his you know, art friends over a thousand dollars

647
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,239
bottle of wine looking at you know, oh, look at

648
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,039
the use of color in this Kim Noble piece where

649
00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:29,639
the man is whipping and raping the child. It's just

650
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,840
really sick. And it gets to the question that I

651
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,000
that I this is the direction I took that third

652
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,920
podcast is when you go through all this stuff and

653
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,199
you lay it all out there, you can kind of

654
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,199
understand why people had the response of what the hell

655
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,239
is going on here? Whether or not you take that

656
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:54,079
and tie it all together into there's this giant conspiracy

657
00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:57,559
involving a pizza place, and you know everything, everybody's connected

658
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:00,400
and everybody's involved. You know, you don't have to do that.

659
00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:03,159
Like the thing, the direction I took the podcast, and

660
00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:09,320
the thing that just occupies my mind is well, you know,

661
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,719
I think about, like one of the questions that is

662
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,679
very strange to people like me, to people like you,

663
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,360
to people out there listening, anybody out there listening, is

664
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,440
how somebody like Jeffrey Epstein could have operated out in

665
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,400
the open for as long as he did in these circles.

666
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,199
I mean, you got to remember his private airplane was

667
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,960
called the Lolita Express, and he didn't give it that

668
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:37,400
name like other people gave it that name, you know,

669
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,079
Lolita for everybody who hasn't read it. And I don't

670
00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:42,639
really recommend it, but this is what literary people consider

671
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,360
high art. It's a nineteen fifty five novel based on

672
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,079
an event that happened in nineteen forty eight where this man,

673
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:52,400
this middle aged man, kidnapped this twelve year old girl,

674
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,360
kept her for about two years on this cross country

675
00:38:55,679 --> 00:38:57,679
trip and just raped her all the time. And that's

676
00:38:57,679 --> 00:38:59,800
what this book is about, and it portrays it in

677
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,920
a way that, like, you know, maybe they're in love.

678
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,000
It's really it's really sick. I don't want the book.

679
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 1: You know. What's interesting is the book did come out

680
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:13,360
in nineteen fifty five, but Nabokov, the author, some of

681
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,159
his early writings are some of the books that the

682
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:17,719
National Socialists burned.

683
00:39:18,679 --> 00:39:22,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's not surprising. That's not surprising at all.

684
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,599
You're not supposed to mention which books they were burning.

685
00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:26,239
Come on, yeah, you know better than that.

686
00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:31,760
Speaker 1: I did a whole episode on that, and then I

687
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,360
guess suspended from YouTube for questioning the the election results

688
00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:39,800
from two years ago.

689
00:39:41,039 --> 00:39:46,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's so. You know, so again, coming back

690
00:39:46,159 --> 00:39:48,639
to that question, how is it that if people knew

691
00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:52,159
what Jeffrey Epstein was up to, and they did. People

692
00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:54,840
knew exactly what he was up to. There's no question

693
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,960
about that. I mean, people knew that he had been

694
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,239
convicted for child prostitution, whatever that means. Back in the

695
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,719
early two thousands or mid two thousands. Everybody knew that.

696
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,639
Everybody who knew who Jeffrey Epstein was knew that. Put

697
00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:11,760
it that way. You know, they gave the other people

698
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,199
nicknamed his airplane the Lolita Express. They knew what was

699
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,480
going on on those airplanes, and so how is it

700
00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:21,320
possible that this guy could just operate like that, especially

701
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,679
in a place like Washington, where you know, people are

702
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,639
looking for anything they can find to smear somebody and

703
00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:30,440
destroy their career. If there's any little thing they can

704
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,159
take out of context, they'll do it. But nobody seems

705
00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:36,519
to be interested in saying, hey, why does Tony Podesta

706
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,960
have pictures of dead kids on his walls by artists

707
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,719
who specialize in pedophile art. It just doesn't get mentioned.

708
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,239
And in fact, he feels comfortable enough with all of

709
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,480
that that he leaves it up when people come over

710
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:52,239
for parties, He leaves it up when photographers show up

711
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,519
from a magazine to profile his house, because this is

712
00:40:55,599 --> 00:40:59,840
normal in this place, Like this is what's normal. And

713
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:02,079
so we ask, how is it that Jeffrey Epstein could

714
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:04,639
operate out in the open. It's because we're thinking like

715
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,920
normal people, you know, we're thinking that if I walk

716
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,880
onto a dude's private plane and there are a half

717
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,599
dozen teenage girls that are not related to him running

718
00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:16,840
around the plane, and he asked me if I want

719
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,639
to get a massage from one of them, Like I'm

720
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,119
certainly leaving the plane. The only question is whether I

721
00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:25,199
would get violent before I did that, And I think

722
00:41:25,199 --> 00:41:28,760
that's how most people would respond. And so they think,

723
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,320
how is it that he could have operated out in

724
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:31,960
the open like this, Well, if you just came from

725
00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:34,679
a party at Tony Podesta's house where he's showing off

726
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,599
his Kim Noble drawings, and you know, after that, you

727
00:41:38,639 --> 00:41:41,079
went and had dinner at a Marina Brahmovic thing with

728
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:44,159
pig's blood written all over the walls and everything like that,

729
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,239
then you show up to Jeffrey Epstein's plane and it's

730
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,199
not that weird, you know, it's pretty just par for

731
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:55,360
the course basically among these degenerates. And so if these

732
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,679
were people who you know, it was a guy who

733
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,239
lived down the block, it was just somebody who, you know,

734
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,800
he's into weird stuff. You know, some people like to

735
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,920
listen to heavy metal music about the Devil too. Does

736
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,280
that make him devil worshipers?

737
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: Know?

738
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,559
Speaker 2: But if this was a guy down the block, first

739
00:42:11,599 --> 00:42:13,280
of all, I don't think anybody would let their kids

740
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:19,280
hang out at that house, but maybe, you know, whatever,

741
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,119
we interpret the First Amendment pretty broadly when it comes

742
00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:27,960
to filth in America. But and so whatever, maybe the

743
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,400
cop shouldn't be sent to arrest him. Don't put me

744
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:32,280
in charge if you don't want that to happen. But

745
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:37,800
in the current setup, maybe that shouldn't be the case. Well,

746
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,480
we're talking about people who are right at the center

747
00:42:40,679 --> 00:42:45,360
of the American power structure, and we are completely within

748
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,280
our rights to demand to know. I mean, you would

749
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,320
get kicked off of a local school board for having

750
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,159
pictures of dead abused kids on your wall. And yet

751
00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:57,760
these people are at the center of the Washington power structure.

752
00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:02,000
And it's you know, so you ask yourself, like, what

753
00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:04,159
is it that's going on there that this stuff could

754
00:43:04,199 --> 00:43:06,320
be could be accepted the way it is. You remember

755
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,119
what happened. I don't know all the details on this.

756
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:10,760
I don't keep up with like just day to day

757
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,480
politics that much, but I noticed that when that guy,

758
00:43:14,519 --> 00:43:18,880
Madison Cawthorn came out and said that he'd been offered

759
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,199
to you know, since he became a congressman, people had

760
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,519
come to him and invited him to orgies and you know,

761
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:27,519
cocaine parties with orgies and everything. And man, they got

762
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:30,480
rid of him quick inn They that took no time

763
00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:31,760
at all, they got rid of him.

764
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: Well, let me let me bring this up. The former

765
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,679
Republican Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert went to jail

766
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:47,360
for pedophilia. Yeah, and the Democrats don't bring that up

767
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,000
every day?

768
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,199
Speaker 2: Isn't that weird? Yeah, like they still hammer the Republicans

769
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,800
over Richard Nixon, but that yeah, that's fine.

770
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: But you know, I said that to somebody on on

771
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,039
Twitter who was like, you know, oh, Matt Gates and underage,

772
00:44:05,559 --> 00:44:07,320
you know, because you know, you're just playing they're playing

773
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,440
left right politics. I'm like, do you find it weird

774
00:44:10,519 --> 00:44:16,159
that the former House speaker, when the Republican House speaker

775
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,360
went to jail for pedophilia, and Democrats don't bring it up,

776
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,199
and she will, And this person's like, well I bring

777
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,920
it up. I'm like, how come your politicians, you like,

778
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:29,480
don't mention it at every turn? Why isn't that a

779
00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:31,000
major talking point?

780
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? Why why don't the major you know, every time

781
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:42,000
anybody posts anything about the Epstein story. You know, my

782
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:44,239
podcast that I put out on that story. I mean,

783
00:44:44,559 --> 00:44:47,719
I don't know if they're like my top downloaded podcast,

784
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,519
but they're definitely up there. Everything that that that gets

785
00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:53,480
put out, there goes viral. I mean, you have that uh,

786
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:58,920
that leaked video from ABC News that James what's his

787
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,360
name put out the the guy does like the hidden

788
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,280
camera videos of all the James' James O'Keeffe. You had

789
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,320
that video that he got a hold of and that

790
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,920
thing went crazy viral. Everybody wanted to see it, Everybody

791
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,039
wanted to hear it. And so you would think, you know,

792
00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:18,519
because they say that that the media is run by

793
00:45:18,599 --> 00:45:20,719
you know, the rule is like if it bleeds, it leads, right,

794
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,480
So if it's just sensational and whatever gets eyeballs, and

795
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:27,599
that's what they'll go after. If that were true, every

796
00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:30,840
single media organization would have an entire department devoted to

797
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,440
Jeffrey Epstein because people all want to know about that,

798
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,400
and they refuse to address it for probably the same

799
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,920
reason that people just avoid and stay away from the

800
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,320
Denny Hastard story. Denny Hasterrick, by the way, was at

801
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,800
a a kid's summer camp with John Podesta back in

802
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,320
sixty seven or sixty eight, I think it was in

803
00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:53,039
It was in Japan. It's kind of a weird thing.

804
00:45:53,039 --> 00:45:54,960
I don't I don't know if that's a you know,

805
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:59,840
we're bringing up but that is interesting and so yeah,

806
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,079
I mean you you know, you start to ask what

807
00:46:03,199 --> 00:46:05,480
these people are, just just what it is they're doing

808
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,400
when they're not on camera, and and who these people

809
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,880
really are. And you know, there was a there was

810
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:17,000
a a New York Times. Well a lot of people

811
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,360
wrote about it, but there was this there was this

812
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:24,079
French novelist back in maybe twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen

813
00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:29,599
named Gabriel matts Neff who you wrote novels that were

814
00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:33,199
about pedophilia. And they were not about like a cop

815
00:46:33,199 --> 00:46:36,159
who's chasing down a pedophile. They were, you know, a

816
00:46:36,199 --> 00:46:39,639
book written by a pedophile. It turns out based on

817
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,280
his own experiences for other people who found that kind

818
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,039
of stuff interesting, Well, Matt's Neff was not. He was

819
00:46:46,039 --> 00:46:47,840
a this is a this guy's a big deal. I mean,

820
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,840
he had a he had a column in a major

821
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,679
French newspaper or magazine. Rather, he was friends with, you know,

822
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,880
Francois Holan, a lot of high up French people. Was

823
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,760
a French high society, very very big guy over there.

824
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,159
And finally he gets busted for being a pedophile. His

825
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:08,119
entire life, you know, his first book that he ever

826
00:47:08,119 --> 00:47:10,320
wrote was called Under sixteen years Old and it was

827
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,519
about pedophilia, right, So it was all out in the open,

828
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:14,559
and everybody kind of knew about this. Well, finally they

829
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,480
arrested him, and there was this New York Times article

830
00:47:17,559 --> 00:47:20,320
kind of about the whole situation, and it said something

831
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,119
very very very interesting that I think maybe shot shines

832
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:27,480
a fairmental light on a lot of this stuff. It

833
00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:33,719
said that, you know, in France there's always been this

834
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:39,440
tension between its professed egalitarianism and the elitism of the

835
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:44,000
people on top, and that the elites in France have

836
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:50,480
for many years distinguished themselves from ordinary people through a

837
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,679
different code of morality that was it was a status thing,

838
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,360
that it was one of the ways that you know,

839
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,679
that they mark themselves off, that they're above all of

840
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,159
you know, a beyond good and evil, above all of

841
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,880
all of those provincial kind of considerations. And I think

842
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,199
that that probably shehins a lot of light on you know,

843
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,800
why it is that could just think about it, like,

844
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,519
how many of these people are there that how many

845
00:48:14,599 --> 00:48:18,639
people out there would think it's normal, would or would

846
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,599
want a picture of a painting of dead kids lying

847
00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:26,079
on the bottom of a swimming pool, prominently featured, very

848
00:48:26,119 --> 00:48:28,880
expensive piece of art, like prominently featured in their living room.

849
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,719
And the answer is very very few, right, it's it's

850
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,199
And yet when you go to Washington, d C. When

851
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,639
you go to a lot of these circles, there doesn't

852
00:48:39,679 --> 00:48:42,239
seem to be a very few of these people. They

853
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,960
seem to be very very They seemed to be all

854
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:45,639
over the place.

855
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:53,079
Speaker 1: Think about Jimmy Seville in England. Everyone knew everybody. I

856
00:48:53,079 --> 00:48:56,880
think there's an interview of John Leiben in like nineteen

857
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,039
seventy seven or he mentioned he says something, yeah, I

858
00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:05,079
mean that's and it's like people knew that this was There.

859
00:49:05,039 --> 00:49:08,519
Speaker 2: Was a there was a police officer, a British police officer,

860
00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:11,840
who talked about something that happened to him back in

861
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:17,000
Jimmy Savill's heyday, where he came upon Jimmy Saville in

862
00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:20,719
a car with a fifteen year old girl and he

863
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,840
just let it slide, He let it pass, and you know,

864
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,920
the guy says, basically, it's like, look, I know this

865
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,800
sounds absolutely horrible and this is not going to please

866
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,239
anybody today, but this was normal back then, Like this

867
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,519
was normal among like these type of people there was.

868
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,119
It was another BBC presenter that wrote an article during

869
00:49:39,119 --> 00:49:41,360
the Me Too stuff where he said that you know,

870
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,039
these days he he and a lot of people that

871
00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:48,840
he knows lose sleep at night and have nightmares that

872
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:50,760
one day the cops are going to knock on their

873
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,480
door for a lot of the things that they were

874
00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:55,119
up to back in the sixties and seventies that you know,

875
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,960
especially that that period after the Cultural Revolution in the

876
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:02,519
sixties and after the Hill, but before AIDS. You know,

877
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:09,000
you hear about it, whether it's music bands, Hollywood, political circles, TV.

878
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,360
These people were out of control in the nineteen seventies.

879
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,760
I mean it's you hear about bands like led Zepp

880
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:17,239
and a lot of a lot of bands, a lot

881
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,119
of Hollywood parties where it was just totally normal to

882
00:50:20,199 --> 00:50:23,360
have teenage girls and teenage boys running around. I mean

883
00:50:23,679 --> 00:50:26,199
it's even like, you know, even.

884
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:31,519
Speaker 1: Even Tyler, Stephen Tyler convinced some family, a couple to

885
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,639
like take his what their thirteen fourteen year old daughter

886
00:50:36,159 --> 00:50:39,519
on tour with him and he ended up yeah, like

887
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,719
and yeah. The police wrote the song have you ever

888
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,400
Have you ever listened to the lyrics of don't don't

889
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:48,320
stand so close to me.

890
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,519
Speaker 2: By the police. No, maybe I should.

891
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, listen to that. I sang it to I

892
00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:57,000
sang it to someone once and I was and I

893
00:50:57,039 --> 00:50:58,679
was like, have you ever listened to these lyrics? And

894
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,960
they're just like, I mean, sting mentions Nabokov in it.

895
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:04,239
It's like.

896
00:51:06,079 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 2: And so and so. You know, you're talking about a

897
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,320
class of people for whom this kind of thing is

898
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:17,559
considered normal, you know, normal enough that nobody, you know,

899
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,440
nobody in Washington, d C. The most cutthroat city in

900
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,280
the entire country, bothers to take a shot at Tony

901
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,199
Podesto over having this stuff. It's just it's just totally normal.

902
00:51:26,559 --> 00:51:29,079
And then when you couple in the fact that you

903
00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:31,559
can't get the media to talk about any of I

904
00:51:31,559 --> 00:51:34,679
mean even just again the very obvious questions that really

905
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,159
need to be answered. Why did Alex Acosta say, Jeffrey

906
00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:41,559
Epstein belong to intelligence? We just we by any standard

907
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:47,719
of national security classification. I don't care what we Everybody

908
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,480
wants and deserves an answer to that question. At least,

909
00:51:50,599 --> 00:51:54,840
you can't even get the question asked, and you know,

910
00:51:55,199 --> 00:52:01,880
it just, uh, it leaves room for you know, the

911
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,639
kind of conspiracy theories that would lead to a guy

912
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,960
grabbing a gun and going down to a pizza place

913
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,119
and Washington, d C. Because when they're when when you

914
00:52:11,159 --> 00:52:14,840
see all of this stuff and you say, like, clearly

915
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:20,360
there's something strange going on in all this like but

916
00:52:20,559 --> 00:52:22,480
and so you say, well, okay, I'll turn on the

917
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:24,599
news and they'll tell me, like you know, they'll ask

918
00:52:24,599 --> 00:52:26,159
the questions about it. What I mean, you find that

919
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,280
not only is that not happening, but anybody who mentions it,

920
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:31,599
you know, it's died down a little bit now. But

921
00:52:31,639 --> 00:52:33,920
if you mention this stuff back, you know, when Ben

922
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,559
Swann got kicked off, you would get kicked off of

923
00:52:36,639 --> 00:52:39,400
like all your platforms for bringing this stuff up, for

924
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,039
asking obvious questions that any normal person would want answered

925
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,719
of people who are at the center of the American

926
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,000
power structure. And so you know that you're just you're

927
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:54,000
begging for uh, you know, people to draw their own

928
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,679
conclusions and take matters into their own hands. When that's

929
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:59,639
the situation. I mean, these people, for a million different reasons,

930
00:53:00,159 --> 00:53:06,039
belong nowhere near power. But you know, I think this

931
00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:08,920
is one of the angles that you can really you

932
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:10,880
can take this to anybody. You can take this to

933
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:15,159
a Democrat mom, you know, a Democrat soccer mom, and

934
00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:17,840
show her a lot of this stuff and she will

935
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,960
agree with you that these people belong nowhere near the

936
00:53:21,039 --> 00:53:24,159
decision making process on whether or not we should be

937
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:28,239
doing sex change surgeries on children. You know, like, if

938
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,559
you have pictures of dead, tied up, abused eight year

939
00:53:32,559 --> 00:53:36,000
olds on your wall, you shouldn't be helping make decisions

940
00:53:36,039 --> 00:53:37,639
as to whether eight year olds should be able to

941
00:53:37,639 --> 00:53:40,400
get gender reassignment surgeries. Most people could agree with that.

942
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,599
Speaker 1: Well, think about how obsessed with what these quote unquote

943
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:48,480
elites are with Ukraine, And all you have to do

944
00:53:48,599 --> 00:53:51,559
is go searching back a few years and you'll find

945
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:56,239
articles about how Ukraine is the actual not human trafficking

946
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,159
like they talk about in this country. If someone becomes

947
00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:03,639
a prostituto, that's human trafficking. No, like literally Ukrainian girls

948
00:54:03,679 --> 00:54:07,760
going to Kiev, going to go into big cities and

949
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:12,159
being kidnapped and taken to other countries to be sex slaves.

950
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:15,480
Ukraine is like the center of that. I mean, I

951
00:54:15,519 --> 00:54:18,760
have one of my one of my Patroon supporters said,

952
00:54:19,119 --> 00:54:22,440
Ukraine it almost seems like it's West World for Western elites,

953
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:25,480
you know, or why why do they want to spend

954
00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:26,719
so much time over there?

955
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:27,199
Speaker 2: Yeah?

956
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:27,599
Speaker 1: Why?

957
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 2: You know, Well, that's what Russia was supposed to be too,

958
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,639
and that's what it was in the nineties. You know, Ukraine.

959
00:54:35,079 --> 00:54:39,079
Ukraine is basically what Russia would have been if Putin

960
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:43,719
had never come along and regulated the the the oligarchs

961
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,880
and sent them packing to London, New York and Tel Aviv.

962
00:54:47,119 --> 00:54:50,360
You know, there's that famous story and right after Putin

963
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,000
took power where he ordered a bunch of the most

964
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,320
powerful oligarchs all out to this datcha and he sits

965
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,360
him down at a table. There's guys with guns around

966
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,239
and everything. He's got the full guy father likes set up,

967
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,079
and he brings them all in, sits them around the table,

968
00:55:04,679 --> 00:55:07,360
and he just informs them, Look, you guys can stay billionaires,

969
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:10,159
you can stay rich. Like I'm not going to interfere

970
00:55:10,159 --> 00:55:12,519
with that, but you guys are done having anything to

971
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:14,880
do with the Russian state. The Russian state is back

972
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,760
and it's going to be reasserting its prerogatives. Those of

973
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,519
you who can get on board with that, great. If

974
00:55:19,519 --> 00:55:22,199
you can't, then you and I are going to have problems,

975
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,119
and some of them could, you know, guys like Oleg Deripaska,

976
00:55:26,159 --> 00:55:29,320
a lot of the Russian ethnic Russian oligarchs, they were

977
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,360
kind of on board with that because you know, they

978
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,360
these were guys too. It's natural to have a certain

979
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:37,280
amount of love for your country. They didn't like exactly

980
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,320
what was going on, and so they were happy to

981
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,480
get on board with that. You know, some of them

982
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:47,079
fled to New York, London and Tel Aviv with hundreds

983
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:50,920
of billions of dollars that they've since used buying off

984
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,119
politicians and paying for media time and paying off think

985
00:55:55,159 --> 00:55:58,320
tanks to make sure that the Anglo sphere stays in

986
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,320
a permanent gehat with Russia. And you know, they're very disappointed.

987
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:03,960
They thought that they were going to be able to

988
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,559
loot that whole country forever, and they were able to

989
00:56:06,559 --> 00:56:09,960
do it throughout the entire nineteen nineties and Putin you know,

990
00:56:10,039 --> 00:56:11,480
I mean people, you don't have to be a Putin

991
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:13,679
lover or whatever. I mean. You know, whether or not

992
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:15,599
I would want to live in a country that's governed

993
00:56:15,639 --> 00:56:18,360
the way Russia's governed is really beside the point, because

994
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,440
I'm not coming from a country that was in the

995
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,079
state Russia was in in the nineteen nineties. And you know,

996
00:56:25,119 --> 00:56:26,519
if you think that you're going to go from that

997
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,360
to Bernie Sanders runs for office in Russia and then

998
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,960
turns it into Vermont like from what it was in

999
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,800
the nineties, that's just not how it works. And I mean,

1000
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,239
you had you had oligarchs that controlled major chunks of

1001
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:41,920
the country, including the natural resources, and it including the

1002
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,079
local governments that refused to send taxes to the central government,

1003
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,440
who had private military forces that were better equipped and

1004
00:56:49,519 --> 00:56:53,360
better paid than the Russian army. And so you know,

1005
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,400
if you were to say, how is the Russian state

1006
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,920
ever going to recollect itself and just re establish itself

1007
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,320
as as a going concer, you said, well, there's going

1008
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,760
to be a massive civil war first of all, and

1009
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:05,239
then someone's going to come out on top of that.

1010
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,599
Didn't happen. And that's amazing that that did not happen,

1011
00:57:08,639 --> 00:57:11,960
given where they were coming from. And you know, I

1012
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,519
don't think again, people can like or dislike Putin for

1013
00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:18,599
a million different reasons, but there's very few people who

1014
00:57:18,599 --> 00:57:20,599
could have pulled that off. And I think the Russians

1015
00:57:20,639 --> 00:57:22,199
know that, and that's why he's so popular.

1016
00:57:23,639 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, well you don't want to talk about that.

1017
00:57:26,039 --> 00:57:30,079
I mean, I'm almost convincing if you say anything positive

1018
00:57:30,119 --> 00:57:32,079
about Putin now you can get videos pulled.

1019
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,159
Speaker 2: Yes, I think so too, And I think honestly, like

1020
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:38,639
I think it if this war really escalates, like if

1021
00:57:38,679 --> 00:57:41,400
it does get to a point where you know, a

1022
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,760
tactical nuke is user, if it just if it continues

1023
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,840
to grow, if we get I think we'll be in

1024
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:50,480
full like Woodrow Wilson espionageack territory. And I'm very cognizant,

1025
00:57:50,559 --> 00:57:53,559
cognizant of that whenever I criticize our policy on the war.

1026
00:57:54,519 --> 00:57:56,119
But whatever, you know, I.

1027
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: Just I can't let's let's not discount the fact that

1028
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,119
if a new if a tactical nuke goes off in

1029
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,719
Ukraine somewhere that I mean, there's a country in the

1030
00:58:05,719 --> 00:58:08,599
world that has nukes that but they don't have nukes.

1031
00:58:08,599 --> 00:58:11,559
We're not allowed to talk about their nukes. And does

1032
00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:15,119
anybody keeping counts of how many nukes they have? Very

1033
00:58:15,119 --> 00:58:18,039
easy for one to just disappear, and you have a

1034
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:21,599
nice false flag that would you put the United States

1035
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:23,199
into a hot war with Russia.

1036
00:58:23,599 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was in I was at a

1037
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,360
conference a couple of weeks ago in Austin, and there

1038
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,920
were a whole bunch of different people. They are giving

1039
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,440
presentations and on panels. I was on a panel and

1040
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,320
one of the people who was there was Eric Prince.

1041
00:58:38,159 --> 00:58:40,719
That's another thing I didn't mention is back in twenty sixteen,

1042
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,760
Eric Prince gave an interview to Breitbart, I think it

1043
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,920
was a radio interview, and he said that he had

1044
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:52,159
sources at Won Police Plaza in New York, NYPD headquarters,

1045
00:58:53,239 --> 00:58:55,239
high well placed sources. And I believe, I mean, he

1046
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:56,960
seems like the kind of guy who probably would have

1047
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,920
those sources who told him that they had gone through

1048
00:59:01,039 --> 00:59:04,440
the fine tooth comb Anthony Wiener's laptop. And again, Anthony

1049
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,880
Wiener wasn't just a prominent congressman. He was married to

1050
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:11,360
Human Aberdeen, who was Hillary Clinton's good friend. I guess

1051
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,840
we'll just leave it at that. And if they had

1052
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:15,480
gone through this, this is Eric Prince. This is the

1053
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,559
guy who started Blackwater, a guy who was very very connected.

1054
00:59:18,719 --> 00:59:21,360
I mean, his sister ended up being the education secretary

1055
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,239
for Trump. Right, very connected guy. And he goes on

1056
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,679
the radio and says that he's got high place sources

1057
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:29,280
at one police plaza. They told him they went through

1058
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,280
the Wiener laptop and they found chaos, They found evidence

1059
00:59:33,559 --> 00:59:38,280
of child sexual abuse, money laundering, all of this stuff,

1060
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,199
and that they had sent it to the FBI. And

1061
00:59:40,239 --> 00:59:43,639
when nothing happened that the NYPD was actually started threatening

1062
00:59:43,679 --> 00:59:45,559
if you don't do something about this, then we're going

1063
00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:49,079
to go public. But then that the Obama administration, the

1064
00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:52,000
Department of Justice started threatening New York that we're going

1065
00:59:52,079 --> 00:59:54,159
to prosecute a bunch of people over the Eric Garner

1066
00:59:54,239 --> 00:59:57,440
case if you do that. And so they didn't. And

1067
00:59:57,519 --> 01:00:01,840
so Eric Prince was giving a was giving a presentation

1068
01:00:02,199 --> 01:00:03,639
or having a talk with a guy, and then there

1069
01:00:03,639 --> 01:00:06,039
were questions and answers afterwards, and you know, I had

1070
01:00:06,079 --> 01:00:08,320
to get in there. So I got up there. I

1071
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:10,920
was like, I've been waiting six years to get an

1072
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:12,800
answer to this question. I laid it out to him

1073
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,039
and I said, you know you said, and I quoted

1074
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:17,239
him exactly what he said. I was like, this is

1075
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,119
in twenty sixteen. I know this a little off topic.

1076
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,199
I don't know about anybody else in here, but I

1077
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,800
for one would love and update on this. And he

1078
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,559
didn't disavowt any of it. He said, he's stayed by

1079
01:00:29,639 --> 01:00:32,039
all of it. He said, it's he said it was true.

1080
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,519
And so then I asked him, I said, and this

1081
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:36,320
goes to what you were just talking about with Russia

1082
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:38,960
kind of is how I'm relating this is, I said, Okay,

1083
01:00:39,039 --> 01:00:41,719
So you were just up here though, telling us how,

1084
01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:44,280
you know, we need to stand with the people of Iran,

1085
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,840
we need to you know, back the people like the

1086
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:52,599
freedom fighters in Ukraine or whatever. It's like, you're just

1087
01:00:52,679 --> 01:00:56,159
you're telling me in my answer here that a bunch

1088
01:00:56,199 --> 01:00:59,039
of the most powerful people up in Washington are either

1089
01:00:59,079 --> 01:01:03,159
complicit or actively participating in child sexual abuse and money

1090
01:01:03,239 --> 01:01:06,840
laundering and all these things, and you want me to

1091
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:10,960
follow those people into a conflict with Russia or Iran

1092
01:01:11,159 --> 01:01:13,960
or anything. Said, how do you square those two things?

1093
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,239
And he just he kind of just avoided the question,

1094
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,280
you know, I mean he seemed like actually kind of

1095
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,320
a pretty normal, like good head on his shoulders kind

1096
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:23,719
of guy, but a very boomer mentality in terms of

1097
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:28,360
like just can't get past you know. Like he told

1098
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,519
us a story like when he was seven years old,

1099
01:01:30,599 --> 01:01:32,440
his family took him. They went to France on a

1100
01:01:32,519 --> 01:01:35,760
vacation and they went to Normandy Beach, and he was

1101
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,880
already like so into World War two and everything that

1102
01:01:39,039 --> 01:01:41,360
he was actually given his family it's seven years old,

1103
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:43,960
given them a tour of like Normandy Beach, right, So

1104
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,079
he's just one of those guys Team America kind of thing,

1105
01:01:47,119 --> 01:01:50,679
and you understand it. But I think even I think

1106
01:01:50,719 --> 01:01:53,239
people like him are even having a little bit of

1107
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,920
trouble with the cognitive dissonance there because I'm not following

1108
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:01,280
those people anywhere, I mean, putting all of this moral

1109
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,960
stuff aside. I mean, it just blows me away that

1110
01:02:04,039 --> 01:02:07,440
people don't seem to remember that these the people who

1111
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,079
are who are managing this conflict with Russia are the

1112
01:02:11,119 --> 01:02:14,480
same people who manage the Afghanistan withdrawal, like the exact

1113
01:02:14,519 --> 01:02:17,480
same people, and everybody seems fine with that. I mean,

1114
01:02:17,519 --> 01:02:21,800
it's really like it's late stage civilization like type of behavior.

1115
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:27,599
Speaker 1: They spent five years calling everything fake news, yeah, and

1116
01:02:27,639 --> 01:02:31,719
now when it comes to Ukraine and I think it's

1117
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,519
just one of those things. It's that Boomer truth regime

1118
01:02:34,719 --> 01:02:40,480
bullshit of where well, if we respect the military and

1119
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:42,400
the people in the military, and the people in the military,

1120
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,000
they you know, they have our best interests at heart,

1121
01:02:45,039 --> 01:02:48,960
will always respect. It's like the people in the Pentagon

1122
01:02:49,039 --> 01:02:51,639
have your best interests or the people of the CIA

1123
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:56,360
have your the NFA, these people, you know, basically the

1124
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,400
deep state, you know, I mean these are still boomers

1125
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,360
who think that the deep state or Obama holdovers. Yeah,

1126
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:06,079
you know what I mean. So and then so yeah,

1127
01:03:06,639 --> 01:03:09,719
you celebrate all these people finally realizing that the press,

1128
01:03:10,079 --> 01:03:13,960
you know, isn't biased, it actually has an agenda and

1129
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:20,159
all of a sudden military something. I Mean, here's something

1130
01:03:20,159 --> 01:03:23,719
that pisses me off the most is it's that it's

1131
01:03:23,719 --> 01:03:26,199
the whole like Whig theory of history thing, how could

1132
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:30,559
another country being how could another country invade another country?

1133
01:03:31,039 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 2: What?

1134
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: It's like, this has been hacked, This is the default

1135
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,159
of humanity. This is if this isn't happening.

1136
01:03:39,199 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 2: That's if you just look at American history for the

1137
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,280
last twenty years. Like people will say that with a

1138
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,079
straight face. Obama was like being interviewed back in twenty

1139
01:03:46,119 --> 01:03:49,360
fourteen after the crimea thing, and he just said with

1140
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,599
totally straight face that, like, you know, Russia and Vladimir

1141
01:03:52,599 --> 01:03:54,840
Putin are just going to have to learn that, you know,

1142
01:03:55,239 --> 01:03:58,880
civilized countries don't just go around invading other countries. It's

1143
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:02,760
like it's crazy, Like it really is. You think you're

1144
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:07,079
going insane listening to these people sometimes. I mean, you

1145
01:04:07,079 --> 01:04:12,679
know that specifically, the way I asked Prince that question was,

1146
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:14,639
you know, because he had said a few things he

1147
01:04:14,679 --> 01:04:17,320
seems like sort of maybe like an evangelical, like normy

1148
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:18,880
Protestant type, but I'm not sure, but that's what he

1149
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,320
kind of sounded like. You mentioned religion, Christianity a few

1150
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,960
times in his talk, and I asked him why we

1151
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:26,679
should follow the kind of people that he was describing

1152
01:04:26,719 --> 01:04:30,760
in that Breitbart interview into a war against a country

1153
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,480
that is using government funds to build hundreds of Orthodox

1154
01:04:33,559 --> 01:04:35,960
churches all over Russia? Like why should I want to

1155
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,800
go join these people to go fight them? And he

1156
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,920
didn't have a good answer for me. I mean, I

1157
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:43,639
don't think there is a good answer, you know, Like,

1158
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,920
and I will say this that it is there's been

1159
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,159
a lot of progress made, Like those boomers, a lot

1160
01:04:51,199 --> 01:04:53,079
of them kind of fell in line as far as

1161
01:04:53,639 --> 01:04:58,280
Russia and the Ukraine story and everything, but not quite

1162
01:04:58,679 --> 01:05:01,800
It's a little less than have been say pre Trump.

1163
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,039
Thank God for Tucker Carlson. I mean, I can tell

1164
01:05:05,039 --> 01:05:07,719
you Tucker Carlson is you know, he's a guy who,

1165
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:11,239
uh like I know him a little bit, and he's

1166
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:14,920
a guy who is very obviously like he's been just

1167
01:05:15,119 --> 01:05:17,840
up here for so long that he's not quite normal,

1168
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,480
you know, like nobody could really be normal when you're

1169
01:05:20,519 --> 01:05:23,719
that famous for that long. But I can tell you

1170
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:28,199
that his his politics are legit and his and his

1171
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,920
intentions are legit, like and thank God for him. I mean,

1172
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:33,559
you know, the people at Fox News, and I've heard

1173
01:05:33,559 --> 01:05:36,000
this from journalists who work with Fox News that the

1174
01:05:36,039 --> 01:05:38,360
management at Fox News they hate Tucker's guts and they

1175
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:40,800
would get rid of him tomorrow if they could. And

1176
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:43,440
that to me just is that recommends him better than

1177
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:45,719
just about anything. So but if it wasn't for him,

1178
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:47,679
you know, if they had been able to get rid

1179
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:51,079
of him, and you just had Hannity and whoever they

1180
01:05:51,119 --> 01:05:54,000
replaced him with, then you'd have Fox News and it

1181
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:57,800
would be just all pro Ukraine kill the Russians. And

1182
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,360
you know, so he provides that little wedge and you know,

1183
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,760
to the extent that I have any audience or influence

1184
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:05,800
at all, I just decided early on. I'm not going

1185
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,119
along with this. I just I don't care how big

1186
01:06:09,159 --> 01:06:12,639
it gets or what goes on. You know, I wasn't

1187
01:06:12,679 --> 01:06:15,960
going to ever get behind. I mean, you look at

1188
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,440
what happened in Syria. There's a lot of people I

1189
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,440
know that the Syrian War. Because again I came from

1190
01:06:21,559 --> 01:06:24,079
a family of veterans. I served twenty years for the

1191
01:06:24,119 --> 01:06:27,639
Department of Defense. It's in my nature to just be

1192
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:34,400
reflexively patriotic and reflexively nationalist and all that. And the

1193
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,519
Syrian War, I mean, we just have to be very

1194
01:06:37,559 --> 01:06:40,360
direct about what happened there. I mean, we ginned up

1195
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:46,920
in international jihad to go destroy a country that all

1196
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,079
of the Christians and other you know, minorities in that

1197
01:06:50,119 --> 01:06:53,360
country were hiding behind Asad's forces. He was the only

1198
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,280
thing protecting them. They were going to get completely wiped

1199
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,800
out by these animals that we sent in there. I mean,

1200
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:02,840
they did wipe out everybody they could get their hands

1201
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,440
on if they were on the outskirts of Damascus. When

1202
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:08,119
the Russians and the Iranians showed up, and the Russians

1203
01:07:08,119 --> 01:07:11,440
showed up and stopped the genocide against Christians that we

1204
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:15,639
were perpetrating, and I know a lot of people that

1205
01:07:15,679 --> 01:07:18,639
the Syrian War it really kind of like broke their faith,

1206
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:26,079
you know, it made it very hard to you know, Yeah,

1207
01:07:26,199 --> 01:07:29,119
I just I will not support this jihad against Russia.

1208
01:07:29,239 --> 01:07:32,360
I don't care what happens. If they want to, you know,

1209
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,119
throw me in jail, if things get bad enough, then

1210
01:07:35,159 --> 01:07:37,159
they can do it. But I'm not cucking on that issue.

1211
01:07:37,199 --> 01:07:37,880
I just refuse.

1212
01:07:39,119 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems like they want to. I interviewed

1213
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,119
Ben Abelow who he just wrote a really short little

1214
01:07:47,119 --> 01:07:51,199
book twenty thousand words on you know, how the West

1215
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:56,719
brought war to the Ukraine, and there are quotes in

1216
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:59,440
there from people in the State Department who are just like,

1217
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,360
we will fight and so the very last Ukrainian it's like.

1218
01:08:05,239 --> 01:08:08,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, these people don't care about Ukrainians man, And you

1219
01:08:08,119 --> 01:08:10,760
know what, the Ukrainian government doesn't care about Ukrainians. I mean,

1220
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:12,880
when you think about the fact, and this is kind

1221
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:14,840
of one of those areas that you talk about that's

1222
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,880
it's very hard to talk about without getting in trouble

1223
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,840
and without having a bunch of people just take the

1224
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,159
bits that you're giving them and then just running completely

1225
01:08:25,199 --> 01:08:28,159
off the rails with them. But still like I One

1226
01:08:28,199 --> 01:08:29,960
of the things I've been concerned about from the very

1227
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:36,680
beginning is that you know that that U Zelenski is

1228
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:41,159
a Jewish guy in Ukraine who just learned the Ukrainian

1229
01:08:41,239 --> 01:08:44,880
language like seven years ago. His Defense Minister is Jewish,

1230
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:48,439
his Prime Minister is Jewish. His campaign was funded and

1231
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:53,319
run by a Jewish oligarchy. Whoor Kolamoyski. And uh you know,

1232
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,319
now I'm not I'm not like conspiracy theorizing here. What

1233
01:08:57,640 --> 01:08:59,720
I'm what I'm worried about, and what I still worry

1234
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:03,960
about is like I don't like Ukraine is not a

1235
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:07,479
is not known as a traditionally like pro Jewish country,

1236
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,039
you know, obviously like they got a lot of these

1237
01:09:10,119 --> 01:09:13,760
oun like neo Nazi militia types, the Asov guys, and

1238
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:18,399
always you think that this government under Zelenski, they don't

1239
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:21,560
care at all about throwing these neo Nazis into the

1240
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,920
fire forever, you know, I mean, I imagine I would

1241
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,520
imagine that probably growing up as a Jewish kid in

1242
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,520
Ukraine probably wasn't always easy for Zelenski. I'm you know,

1243
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:33,920
I'm sure there were times where that wasn't easy, and

1244
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,199
so I just I worry and wonder that. You know,

1245
01:09:37,279 --> 01:09:39,520
they've got a guy in office over there who will

1246
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,279
just throw the Ukrainians into the fire until they're all

1247
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:45,199
gone because he just doesn't really care, you know, because

1248
01:09:45,239 --> 01:09:47,479
these people have been hostile to him and hostile to

1249
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,239
his people. And I could be wrong about that. Maybe

1250
01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:53,279
he's become a Ukrainian nationalist like all the Azov guys

1251
01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:58,520
like over the years. But you know, it's it's something

1252
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:02,279
to be concerned about. I think, what do they call

1253
01:10:02,399 --> 01:10:08,760
Ukraine the bread basket of Europe. Yeah, it's very rich land,

1254
01:10:10,119 --> 01:10:14,520
a lot of resources, a lot more resources than a

1255
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,800
little stretch of land in the Middle East. Yeah, it

1256
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,279
would seem like there would be some some people might

1257
01:10:21,319 --> 01:10:24,920
be interested in taking that land over, and you know,

1258
01:10:25,039 --> 01:10:27,600
because it's a little more rich and probably a little

1259
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:32,479
more stable than you know where they are. All I know, yeah,

1260
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:36,600
all I All I know is that it would be

1261
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,239
it would be terrible for the world, and I think

1262
01:10:39,239 --> 01:10:45,199
it would be terrible for America and Americans if if

1263
01:10:45,199 --> 01:10:48,840
the regime gets its way in Ukraine. I think that

1264
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:51,760
that it would be a disaster for the world, actually,

1265
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:53,600
and I think that the best thing that could happen,

1266
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:59,439
including with like to America and two Americans. Is that

1267
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:02,039
the Russians get their way in Ukraine and that and

1268
01:11:02,079 --> 01:11:04,560
that we have to take a step back from this

1269
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:09,960
global American empire. That uh, you know, we we we're

1270
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:13,520
I mean, if you look at places like Russia and

1271
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:18,720
Turkey and Israel, uh to a degree, and Saudi Arabia

1272
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:22,640
to a degree, India, China. You know, basically these sort

1273
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:26,640
of civilization states, they all have an interest in a

1274
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:30,119
multipolar world order. We're we are the only ones that don't.

1275
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:33,560
And that and that goes for the Europeans as well.

1276
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:34,920
I mean, we see what's going on over there. The

1277
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:39,359
Europeans are the Europeans are done man like their their

1278
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:44,439
economy is I saw this thing the other day, point o, yeah,

1279
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:46,680
there you go. I mean, and it's ah and there

1280
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,800
were and yet they're doing it's a d I Y

1281
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,439
morgent Tho plan like getting them to do it to themselves.

1282
01:11:52,319 --> 01:11:55,479
And you know, I mean that's I don't blame the

1283
01:11:55,520 --> 01:11:58,279
European people for being that stupid, obviously, I think their

1284
01:11:58,319 --> 01:12:01,319
leaders are compromised. NATO is not so much a military

1285
01:12:01,359 --> 01:12:04,960
alliance as much as it's just the euphemism we give

1286
01:12:05,079 --> 01:12:11,520
to the American domination of Europe. So yeah, it's I

1287
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,720
think that taking getting a bloody nose on this and

1288
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,479
getting pushed back and finding out that in fact, other

1289
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,199
major powers do have spheres of influence and you don't

1290
01:12:20,239 --> 01:12:21,880
run the world, it would be the best thing it

1291
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,119
could happen to us and certainly to the rest of

1292
01:12:24,119 --> 01:12:24,520
the world.

1293
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:30,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes getting punched in the mouth is very beneficial.

1294
01:12:30,279 --> 01:12:32,600
I think that the world would be the United States

1295
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:36,600
would definitely be a much different place if a lot

1296
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:41,680
of the men who've become adults and who become adults

1297
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:43,720
age in the last twenty years have been punched in

1298
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:46,119
the mouth a bunch As a kid.

1299
01:12:46,520 --> 01:12:49,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I had a cousin. I have a

1300
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:53,600
cousin who you know, he's always kind of a mama's boy,

1301
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,960
very soft, couldn't really and it translated over into just

1302
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,079
how he kind of lived his life. Couldn't really like

1303
01:12:59,119 --> 01:13:02,479
get motivated to do anything. One day, He's like twenty

1304
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,000
twenty one, twenty two, he was in a he was

1305
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,560
in a restaurant waiting in line with his girlfriend and

1306
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:10,800
there are these gang bangers there who like started making

1307
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:12,479
remarks to his girlfriend. He felt like he had to

1308
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:16,199
say something. They just kicked his ass and you know,

1309
01:13:16,319 --> 01:13:19,000
really gave him a good, a pretty solid beating. These guys.

1310
01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:21,279
It was the best thing that ever happened to him.

1311
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:23,399
I mean, he became a man that day. And then

1312
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,159
he just he went out and he you know, finished college.

1313
01:13:26,159 --> 01:13:28,640
He's a teacher now, he's a very successful guy. And

1314
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,800
he really like matured about ten years in fifteen minutes

1315
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:34,239
during that beating. So yeah, definitely right about that.

1316
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,399
Speaker 1: All right, Well let's get out of here.

1317
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I rambled so much. I don't know if we

1318
01:13:40,720 --> 01:13:41,319
want to cover up.

1319
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 1: I think we covered enough. Remind everybody where they can

1320
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:47,479
find your work.

1321
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 2: The podcast is called Martyr Made all one word Martyr

1322
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:58,840
as in a Lahu wak Bar made. My other podcast

1323
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:02,079
with Jocko's called Unraveling. You can find those both anywhere

1324
01:14:02,079 --> 01:14:05,199
that you get podcasts or on the Martyr Made website.

1325
01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:09,640
And then I got a substack Martermade dot substack dot com.

1326
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:11,039
And yeah, that's it.

1327
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:14,359
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Daryl, thank you, and let's do this

1328
01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:14,880
again soon.

1329
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:17,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, anytime. Pete, thanks man, thank you.

1330
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:21,680
Speaker 1: Take care. I want to welcome everyone back to the

1331
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:25,840
Pete Kenyona's show, returning to the show. I've been waiting

1332
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:27,479
for this, Darallel Cooper.

1333
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 2: They doing do good man, how are you. It's great

1334
01:14:31,039 --> 01:14:31,760
to be back on.

1335
01:14:32,520 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Last time you were on, we

1336
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,800
did a We talked about the ridiculousness of Pizzagate and

1337
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:44,159
how that was just totally ridiculous. Yeah, totally ridiculous. Nothing

1338
01:14:44,199 --> 01:14:48,279
there but this one. This one, this is a Was

1339
01:14:48,319 --> 01:14:51,560
it five parts you've written?

1340
01:14:52,239 --> 01:14:53,640
Speaker 2: I think it was five or six? Yeah. I was

1341
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,760
supposed to be one, and then I decided it was

1342
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:57,239
going to be two, and then it turned it into

1343
01:14:57,399 --> 01:15:00,560
five or six, which is what always happens with my projects.

1344
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:03,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, and it was very simply titled. I remember

1345
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:08,279
getting the emails and said Jews and Blacks and I

1346
01:15:08,319 --> 01:15:11,479
assume that's in America, because you know, that was my

1347
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:15,520
immediate assumption. And I started reading and I wanted to

1348
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:18,800
have you on so that you're doing this on your

1349
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,720
sub Sac and sub Sac is an unbelievable platform. They've

1350
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:23,800
been really good to me and good to a lot

1351
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,399
of people who believe in uh, you know, you should

1352
01:15:26,399 --> 01:15:29,239
be able to say what you want and not have

1353
01:15:29,359 --> 01:15:33,399
to suffer the consequences of the regime and their apparatus.

1354
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:39,039
But this is something that with my recent reading of

1355
01:15:39,199 --> 01:15:42,239
race War in high school, which a lot of people

1356
01:15:42,319 --> 01:15:47,479
wouldn't maybe they would see the black white conflict in it.

1357
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:52,680
But the fact that the New York City Teachers Union,

1358
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:56,000
the UFT at the time had sixty thousand members and

1359
01:15:56,159 --> 01:16:00,760
forty thousand of them were Jewish. I look at that,

1360
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:06,880
and I'm trying to also look at the historic relationship

1361
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:10,039
between the black and the jew in this country. And

1362
01:16:10,079 --> 01:16:12,079
you just started writing about it. So I want to

1363
01:16:12,119 --> 01:16:14,199
give you a chance to do an overview. So where

1364
01:16:14,199 --> 01:16:14,920
do you want to start.

1365
01:16:16,359 --> 01:16:18,640
Speaker 2: You know, the reason I started writing that series is

1366
01:16:19,279 --> 01:16:21,560
the Kanye stuff was in the news, and I knew

1367
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,680
a little bit about the history of Black Jewish relations

1368
01:16:24,800 --> 01:16:28,439
in the twentieth century, and you know, I kind of

1369
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:30,920
realized that when the Kanye thing came out, and it's

1370
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:33,359
kind of happens every time, you know, when the Nick

1371
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:36,600
Cannon thing happened, or when jay Z got introlled. Each

1372
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:40,880
time this happens, people tend to just put it in

1373
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:44,159
a jar and you know, put it up by itself

1374
01:16:44,199 --> 01:16:47,520
on display somewhere as like this ignorant rapper who made

1375
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:51,600
this ignorant remark you know, but when you look back

1376
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:55,079
at how often this has happened over the years, and

1377
01:16:55,079 --> 01:16:58,720
how often it happens specifically with black celebrities and not

1378
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:02,119
white celebrities. You know, it took a bottle of Jim

1379
01:17:02,199 --> 01:17:04,760
Beam and sleep deprivation for mel Gibson to go on

1380
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:08,960
his rant. You know, but that that you realize that

1381
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:11,600
there's a long history here and that this doesn't just

1382
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,039
come out of nowhere. It didn't erupt out of nowhere,

1383
01:17:14,159 --> 01:17:17,520
and it's just, you know, these these ideas that Kanye

1384
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:20,760
is putting out about blacks being the real Hebrews, or

1385
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:26,000
you know, Jewish executives and business owners taking advantage of

1386
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,119
black labor or black customers, or you know, any of

1387
01:17:29,119 --> 01:17:33,159
these things that he says. He's not going online and

1388
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:37,279
you know, to some hardcore right wing website reading these things.

1389
01:17:37,359 --> 01:17:40,199
These are ideas that have been circulating in the black

1390
01:17:40,199 --> 01:17:45,159
community for many decades, and you know, so I wanted

1391
01:17:45,199 --> 01:17:48,640
to give people just a little history lesson on the

1392
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:52,319
background of what happened when when Kanye was having his

1393
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:57,079
self immolation on the steps of the A d L headquarters,

1394
01:17:57,119 --> 01:17:59,920
But it ended up being like a much longer his

1395
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:02,399
history of black Jewish relations in the US, you know,

1396
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:07,079
kind of started back with the Great migration up through

1397
01:18:07,279 --> 01:18:10,119
the teachers strike, which I'm sure we'll talk about, and

1398
01:18:10,159 --> 01:18:11,760
then all the way on up through like the Crown

1399
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:16,159
Heights riot and you know, attempts by various people on

1400
01:18:16,239 --> 01:18:19,560
both sides to kind of paper over their differences and

1401
01:18:20,039 --> 01:18:23,279
smooth things over. And yeah, it was it was a

1402
01:18:23,319 --> 01:18:25,880
lot of fun. I learned a lot actually when I

1403
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:26,720
was researching it.

1404
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:34,399
Speaker 1: Well, the real migration from Europe of well, I mean,

1405
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:37,920
we know how Black scott here and then there'll be

1406
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:41,720
immigration later. But it seems like it started around eighteen

1407
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:46,880
eighty going into eighteen ninety. But there were a Jewish population,

1408
01:18:47,159 --> 01:18:51,199
it seems like predominantly German, of German Jews at the time,

1409
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:57,880
and they had integrated into the into the population. I mean,

1410
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:01,520
some will argue not very well, but hey, you know

1411
01:19:02,359 --> 01:19:03,720
pretty well though pretty well.

1412
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:07,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the German Jews, like they were pretty assimilated

1413
01:19:07,159 --> 01:19:09,479
in Germany, you know, and so when they came over here,

1414
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:13,000
they assimbly. They were pretty assimilated, right because they came

1415
01:19:13,039 --> 01:19:15,640
over you know, there was a big German migration that came.

1416
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:17,800
It kind of gets forgotten because it happened at the

1417
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,760
same time as the huge migration of Irish in the

1418
01:19:20,760 --> 01:19:24,319
mid nineteenth century. It was a pretty big German migration too,

1419
01:19:24,399 --> 01:19:27,199
and some portion of those were Jews, and they you know,

1420
01:19:27,439 --> 01:19:30,239
mostly lived up in the northern cities, and yeah, so

1421
01:19:30,239 --> 01:19:31,039
they were there before.

1422
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:38,640
Speaker 1: With the subsequent migration in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties,

1423
01:19:39,359 --> 01:19:42,960
it seems like the there was a worry with the

1424
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:46,560
group that was already here, that the assimilation here was

1425
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:48,920
not going to be as work as well as it

1426
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:50,159
did with them.

1427
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean the you know German Jews and

1428
01:19:54,079 --> 01:19:57,760
the ostudent in Poland and the Russian Empire, they there

1429
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:00,800
was a lot of animosity and mistrust there even back

1430
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:03,960
in Europe. You know, you read one of the early Zionists,

1431
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:08,079
like high In Wetzmen write about German Jews and he

1432
01:20:08,199 --> 01:20:11,239
despises them because he thinks they look down on Polish Jews,

1433
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:14,239
and maybe they did to a certain extent. You know,

1434
01:20:14,279 --> 01:20:17,319
they were German Jews were pretty well assimilated. They were

1435
01:20:17,399 --> 01:20:21,600
very successful members of German society. You know. The Eastern

1436
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:26,760
Jews in the Russian Empire were they were less certainly

1437
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:32,000
less assimilated, but just sort of less less sort of

1438
01:20:33,239 --> 01:20:36,880
integrated into the value system and the habits of like

1439
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,800
Enlightenment Europe by that point, right, And so there was that,

1440
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,479
But this is something that's actually happened. You know. You

1441
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:46,439
see the same thing when you look at the big

1442
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:49,920
Irish migration in the mid nineteenth century. There were Irish

1443
01:20:49,920 --> 01:20:52,560
who were already here, who were well assimilated and who

1444
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:56,039
were because you know, the earliest Irish migrations into the

1445
01:20:56,159 --> 01:21:00,399
United States were predominantly people with skill, are with a

1446
01:21:00,399 --> 01:21:02,560
good trade or with wealth, and they were coming over

1447
01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:04,880
and integrating pretty well. And then when you had the

1448
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:09,239
famine in in the mid nineteenth century, you started getting

1449
01:21:09,279 --> 01:21:13,359
just flooded. Our cities got flooded with just I mean

1450
01:21:13,399 --> 01:21:16,439
an unbelievable like a quarter of the entire population of

1451
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:18,880
Ireland moved to the United States in a short period

1452
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:22,920
of time. I mean, that's just unbelievable. But like you know,

1453
01:21:22,960 --> 01:21:25,039
and they pretty much all settled in cities, at least

1454
01:21:25,039 --> 01:21:30,159
at first, and you had the previous Irish residents of

1455
01:21:30,159 --> 01:21:37,520
those cities who were seeing these mostly illiterate, poor rural

1456
01:21:38,079 --> 01:21:40,960
Irish people who were coming over and they're thinking, oh

1457
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,439
my god, like these the Americans are going to hate

1458
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,039
Irish people now, and we're going to get sucked into that.

1459
01:21:46,079 --> 01:21:50,520
And so they set up benevolent associations in settlement houses

1460
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:53,359
and various things to sort of try to integrate these

1461
01:21:53,399 --> 01:21:56,000
people only did a pretty good job. And the same

1462
01:21:56,000 --> 01:21:58,960
thing happened with German Jews when Eastern Jews started coming

1463
01:21:59,039 --> 01:22:02,399
over in the eighteen eighty there was actually you know,

1464
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:05,199
if you wanted to participate, if you were a new

1465
01:22:05,319 --> 01:22:09,159
Jewish immigrant, you wanted to participate or benefit from some

1466
01:22:09,319 --> 01:22:13,239
of the like just community resources, community welfare resources, or

1467
01:22:13,279 --> 01:22:16,600
anything that were provided by the Jewish community itself, you

1468
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:20,960
had to go through this process of you know, going

1469
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:23,359
into these settlement houses and sort of you had to

1470
01:22:23,359 --> 01:22:25,760
make you had to learn English, you had you had

1471
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:28,800
to assimilate basically, and they made damn sure you did.

1472
01:22:29,399 --> 01:22:31,880
And you know, you even saw the same thing when

1473
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:34,840
you get into the twentieth century with the great migration

1474
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:37,680
of blacks out of the South. You know, there there

1475
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:40,880
were black people who lived in the northern cities, very few,

1476
01:22:41,039 --> 01:22:44,159
but they'd lived there for a long time. These are

1477
01:22:44,199 --> 01:22:46,399
people who would live there since before the Civil War.

1478
01:22:47,359 --> 01:22:50,720
And when they got up there and they started seeing

1479
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:55,199
their country cousins flooding into the cities. You know, they

1480
01:22:55,239 --> 01:22:58,640
think this is this is bad news for us, and

1481
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,039
so you know, there was somewhat less of a of

1482
01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:05,479
an attempt to help them integrate, which may have something

1483
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:08,279
to do with why you know, it didn't happen as well.

1484
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:13,079
Speaker 1: Me knowing my history and especially my New York history,

1485
01:23:13,199 --> 01:23:17,800
Harlem jazz clubs popping up. Now we're getting into the

1486
01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:23,880
early nineteen hundreds, it seems like not only did a

1487
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:25,960
lot of Jews own the jazz clubs where are the

1488
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:28,680
blacks play? But a lot of the Jews were musicians,

1489
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:32,239
were a part of that scene. How do they get

1490
01:23:32,279 --> 01:23:33,159
along at that time?

1491
01:23:35,399 --> 01:23:39,199
Speaker 2: Not bad? Not bad? Actually, you know. I mean there's

1492
01:23:39,239 --> 01:23:44,680
always a difference in how different social classes relate to

1493
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:48,279
people who are different. Right, if you're in the upper

1494
01:23:48,359 --> 01:23:53,079
upper class, you're not competing for your job with a

1495
01:23:53,119 --> 01:23:56,279
new black migrant, for example, and so there's always a

1496
01:23:56,279 --> 01:23:58,840
little bit more room for tolerance, like the higher you

1497
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:02,920
are up the social scale. But not bad, you know.

1498
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:05,960
In nineteen oh nine, I think is when the NAACP

1499
01:24:06,239 --> 01:24:11,800
was formed, and Jewish money and Jewish like executive leadership

1500
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:14,479
in that organization was. It was critical to getting that

1501
01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:18,520
organization going and remained critical to it like throughout most

1502
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:24,239
of its history. You know. It's it's interesting because you know,

1503
01:24:24,279 --> 01:24:30,119
the Jews in Europe, especially in Eastern Europe. You know,

1504
01:24:30,159 --> 01:24:33,079
the way you have to kind of think of them before,

1505
01:24:33,239 --> 01:24:36,079
like up to right around the well about the great

1506
01:24:36,119 --> 01:24:38,560
migration of Jews over here in the eighteen eighties really

1507
01:24:39,119 --> 01:24:45,720
is they were like a more advanced, more sophisticated Gypsy group. Basically,

1508
01:24:46,119 --> 01:24:49,319
you know, they were people without a home country who

1509
01:24:49,399 --> 01:24:54,319
lived everywhere, traveled around, and they engaged in trades that

1510
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:58,640
made them useful to their host populations. Right, So Gypsies

1511
01:24:59,279 --> 01:25:01,560
are a little bit more primitive in that sense. You know,

1512
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:05,359
there's a lot of art, music, dance, and fortune telling,

1513
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:08,399
you know, things like that, as well as criminal activity.

1514
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:12,560
But the Jews, you know, these were you know, they

1515
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:17,079
had the advantage of before this was common throughout Europe.

1516
01:25:17,199 --> 01:25:19,800
Most Jews were literate because it was just part of

1517
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:23,560
their social tradition. And you know, if you were if

1518
01:25:23,560 --> 01:25:27,960
you were literate in eighteen fifty, then you know there

1519
01:25:28,279 --> 01:25:30,880
was going to be something for you to do. And

1520
01:25:31,199 --> 01:25:35,479
but there were also a lot of Jewish entertainers, you know, singing, dancing,

1521
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:39,000
things that you know, were considered disreputable back in the day.

1522
01:25:39,159 --> 01:25:42,159
Like back in the day, an actor was not something

1523
01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:45,880
that anybody wanted to associate with. Like people might go

1524
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:48,760
to the shows and enjoy them, but they were considered

1525
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:52,000
it was considered a disreputable trade because they just you know,

1526
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,520
people didn't like them. And so Jews did a lot

1527
01:25:54,520 --> 01:25:56,359
of that, and when they come over to the United States,

1528
01:25:56,439 --> 01:25:58,560
they did a lot of that, a lot of Jewish comedians,

1529
01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:01,880
Jewish musicians, et cetera. And they own ended up owning

1530
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:06,680
a lot of the jazz clubs. And yeah, they you know,

1531
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:11,439
as far as I know, I mean, race relations, you know,

1532
01:26:11,520 --> 01:26:14,279
race relations in general in the North were not really

1533
01:26:14,319 --> 01:26:17,279
bad before the Great Migration because there just weren't enough

1534
01:26:18,119 --> 01:26:23,000
Black people to make anybody really feel threatened as far

1535
01:26:23,039 --> 01:26:26,199
as their job or the changing of their neighborhood.

1536
01:26:26,239 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 1: You know.

1537
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 2: The first real anti black violence, like at a real

1538
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:34,560
scale that you get other than the Civil War riots,

1539
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:39,359
draft riots, comes after the First World War, when million

1540
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:41,000
you know, I don't know, it's probably about a million.

1541
01:26:41,039 --> 01:26:45,079
Actually Black people had moved up into the cities, mostly

1542
01:26:45,119 --> 01:26:48,680
in the in the East and Midwest, and you know,

1543
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:51,439
because men, white men were over in Europe in the

1544
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:54,399
trenches and they need they needed labor to fill up

1545
01:26:54,399 --> 01:26:57,880
the industrial jobs. And so they start advertising down in

1546
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:00,960
the South. Companies are advertised down in the South to

1547
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:03,760
get black workers to come up and something that's kind

1548
01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:07,159
of it's possible now, right because there's railroads that are

1549
01:27:07,279 --> 01:27:12,239
available for mass use. And you know, so when when

1550
01:27:12,399 --> 01:27:15,560
those workers, when when the white workers start getting back

1551
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:17,920
from Europe from the First World War, they find a

1552
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:20,680
lot of their jobs all taken up by these people,

1553
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:23,680
these black people who weren't here before. And you actually

1554
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:26,520
did see some some racial violence at that time. And

1555
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,319
so I think before the Great Migration, though it was

1556
01:27:29,359 --> 01:27:32,840
not it was not so much of an issue sports.

1557
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:36,520
Speaker 1: I mean, there was a time when Jews were the

1558
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:41,319
heavyweight champion of the world and boxing and they basically

1559
01:27:41,359 --> 01:27:45,159
dominated basketball. So they still do.

1560
01:27:45,439 --> 01:27:46,319
Speaker 2: Look at the ownership.

1561
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:50,359
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it just switched a little bit. Yeah, what

1562
01:27:50,359 --> 01:27:53,840
do you know about how that because from what I understand,

1563
01:27:54,199 --> 01:27:56,920
it was another one of those things where Jewish community

1564
01:27:57,039 --> 01:28:00,520
leaders were like, this is very disreputable. We really needs

1565
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:06,439
to concentrate on academics and basically they put in their

1566
01:28:06,600 --> 01:28:12,640
neighborhood newspapers. We pushing people out and making other Jews

1567
01:28:12,680 --> 01:28:15,720
feel like they shouldn't be doing this and they should

1568
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:18,039
be concentrating on other things.

1569
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:22,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's that's definitely the case. And if you

1570
01:28:22,159 --> 01:28:24,520
look at the NBA, you know that really is like

1571
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:29,880
the NBA and the recording industry you know too, which

1572
01:28:30,119 --> 01:28:33,119
kind of come back to this topic between the relationship

1573
01:28:33,159 --> 01:28:37,239
between Blacks and Jews, right, are two areas that Jews

1574
01:28:37,279 --> 01:28:40,840
once dominated and then moved up to the ownership level

1575
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:43,359
on I think out of the thirty NBA teams, fourteen

1576
01:28:43,439 --> 01:28:47,399
or fifteen of them have Jewish owners. And you know,

1577
01:28:47,439 --> 01:28:52,840
they've had a Jewish League commissioner since I think eighty three,

1578
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:57,119
and David Stern was pretty much understood by everybody to

1579
01:28:57,119 --> 01:29:00,359
be running the show as the as the second man

1580
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:03,479
for a decade before that. So you know, we're talking

1581
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:05,880
what is that fifty years that they've had a Jewish

1582
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:10,560
commissioner basically, And yeah, I mean and that creates resentment,

1583
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,720
you know. I mean it's something that you know, you

1584
01:29:14,039 --> 01:29:18,039
see it in different ways, like in James Baldwin wrote

1585
01:29:18,079 --> 01:29:22,720
this this kind of infamous article back in sixty three

1586
01:29:23,239 --> 01:29:28,079
sixty four. I think sometimes in the sixties called negroes

1587
01:29:28,079 --> 01:29:31,680
are anti Semitic because they're anti white. And you know,

1588
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:34,680
he starts it off with, I mean, this is not

1589
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:37,560
something you could get published today, even by a black author.

1590
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:39,520
You know, he says, when I was a boy growing

1591
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,439
up in Harlem, you know, the butcher was a Jew

1592
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:44,920
and we hated him. The landlord was a Jew, and

1593
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:47,079
we hated him because he wouldn't take care of our building,

1594
01:29:47,119 --> 01:29:50,600
et cetera. You know, the our teachers were mostly Jews

1595
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:52,720
and we hated them because they talked down to us.

1596
01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:54,600
And he kind of just goes on and on like this,

1597
01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:59,039
and this is you know, I mean, it's pretty shocking

1598
01:29:59,079 --> 01:30:02,439
to like modern readers to read it, right, just like that.

1599
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:04,840
You know, around the same time that that Norman pod

1600
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:08,039
hortz h article in the Commentary that I quote a lot,

1601
01:30:08,079 --> 01:30:10,880
is really shocking to people today, you know, and I

1602
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:13,720
think we've probably really lost something, you know, by not

1603
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:16,920
allowing people to speak openly about these things. You know,

1604
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:21,439
when you read pod Hortz's article in Commentary, it's called

1605
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:25,800
it's called My Negro Problem in ours. It's a famous

1606
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:28,840
article that you know, one of the fathers of neo

1607
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:34,039
conservatism wrote and he talks about living in He grew

1608
01:30:34,119 --> 01:30:36,840
up in Brownsville, actually so right there in Brooklyn and

1609
01:30:38,159 --> 01:30:41,840
in a mixed neighborhood of primarily Jews, Italians and some blacks.

1610
01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:44,039
And when he was a boy, it was still mostly

1611
01:30:44,119 --> 01:30:49,720
Jews and Italians, but a growing black population. And he

1612
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:51,560
goes through with all these incidents when he was a

1613
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:54,760
kid of you know, once when he's a twelve year

1614
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:57,439
old boy gets attacked by a group and hitting the

1615
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:01,000
head with a baseball bat and just can consistently getting

1616
01:31:02,279 --> 01:31:06,880
you know, mugged, extorted, threatened, intimidated, and beaten like a

1617
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:09,960
lot by these black kids. And he talks about how

1618
01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:15,720
that experience growing up kind of shaped his shaped certain views,

1619
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:19,640
some of which he you know, justifies, others that he

1620
01:31:19,680 --> 01:31:22,039
doesn't justify and that he's ashamed of. But he says

1621
01:31:22,079 --> 01:31:26,119
that they're really there, you know, and those are you know,

1622
01:31:26,239 --> 01:31:29,840
that's a that's a that's an important article, an important

1623
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:32,079
perspective to get. You know, you have a twelve year

1624
01:31:32,119 --> 01:31:34,359
old boy who got beat over the head with a

1625
01:31:34,399 --> 01:31:38,680
baseball bat. That's incredibly traumatic. It's incredibly traumatic for like

1626
01:31:39,039 --> 01:31:42,239
for the parents, you know, for everybody involved to have

1627
01:31:42,319 --> 01:31:43,920
something like that happen. I mean, I grew up in

1628
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:47,880
rough neighborhoods, in mostly black, black neighborhoods, and so I'm

1629
01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:49,720
kind of used to this kind of thing. But I

1630
01:31:49,760 --> 01:31:52,279
wonder sometimes how people who are who grew up in

1631
01:31:52,319 --> 01:31:55,000
kind of middle class, stable circumstances when they read about

1632
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,119
a twelve year old boy getting attacked and beaten over

1633
01:31:57,159 --> 01:32:00,640
the head with a baseball bat. It's pretty shock, you know,

1634
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:02,760
and and and it is shocking. It was. It was

1635
01:32:02,800 --> 01:32:07,199
really traumatic. And the feelings that that that somebody like

1636
01:32:07,199 --> 01:32:10,920
pot Horts has that are an outgrowth of these, you know,

1637
01:32:11,039 --> 01:32:16,079
really difficult experiences. You know, they're important to talk about,

1638
01:32:16,239 --> 01:32:19,760
but you can't talk about them anymore, and it's unfortunate.

1639
01:32:19,840 --> 01:32:23,760
And just like in James Baldwin's case too, you know, Baldwin, Uh,

1640
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:28,399
you can call that article anti semitic. I don't really

1641
01:32:28,439 --> 01:32:31,560
think it is, uh anymore than pot Hortz's article is

1642
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:35,199
anti black, but you can read it and say that

1643
01:32:35,319 --> 01:32:37,640
this is you know, Baldwin's not somebody I have a

1644
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:39,600
lot of respect for as a writer or a thinker.

1645
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:43,520
I think he gets overplayed because of kind of who

1646
01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:47,720
he was at a certain historical moment, but you know,

1647
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:52,840
he he the reality was growing up in his neighborhood,

1648
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,239
the butcher was a Jew. His teacher's word jews, his

1649
01:32:55,359 --> 01:33:00,920
landlord's word jews, the pawnbroker's word used. And you're going

1650
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:03,640
to have a difficult relationship with those people when you

1651
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:06,960
have an outside community that owns everything, holds all the

1652
01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:11,239
professional jobs, et cetera. Which makes sense because they've been

1653
01:33:11,279 --> 01:33:13,199
here for a long time and so they've moved up

1654
01:33:13,239 --> 01:33:16,319
the social ladder and you just got here. You know,

1655
01:33:16,479 --> 01:33:18,760
your people just got here, and so it's natural that

1656
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:21,399
would be the case. But you know, at a time

1657
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:25,359
like the nineteen sixties, when identity was becoming so important

1658
01:33:25,399 --> 01:33:28,640
and black militancy was on the rise, you know, the

1659
01:33:29,039 --> 01:33:32,439
idea that kind of had held among liberals up until

1660
01:33:32,479 --> 01:33:35,119
then that blacks would kind of travel the same path

1661
01:33:35,159 --> 01:33:40,319
that previous immigrant groups had traveled, working their way up

1662
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:43,319
over the course of a few generations, you know, toward

1663
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:47,600
integration to the economy and everything. That that was not

1664
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:51,479
a proposal that was acceptable to black people anymore in

1665
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:54,319
the sixties, And you know, you can sympathize with that

1666
01:33:54,359 --> 01:33:56,239
a bit right. They've been here for four hundred years,

1667
01:33:56,239 --> 01:33:59,079
and you have second generation immigrants telling them to get

1668
01:33:59,079 --> 01:34:01,560
in line and do what they parents did, and you

1669
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:05,199
can see why they would chafe against that. But at

1670
01:34:05,239 --> 01:34:08,119
the same time, you know, that's the path, that is

1671
01:34:08,159 --> 01:34:12,319
the path towards success and integration, and when it was abandoned,

1672
01:34:13,239 --> 01:34:15,239
you know, we're still living with the consequences of that

1673
01:34:15,359 --> 01:34:18,840
shift in identity and ideology among black people in the

1674
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:19,840
nineteen sixties.

1675
01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, the intermediary, the merchant in the neighborhood that's not

1676
01:34:26,039 --> 01:34:30,640
from there. It doesn't have to be the Jew. I mean,

1677
01:34:31,199 --> 01:34:33,800
how many rap songs in the nineties were about the

1678
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,479
Korean grocer in Los Angeles.

1679
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:40,359
Speaker 2: There's and it's to society. You know, people watch it

1680
01:34:40,359 --> 01:34:42,840
today and they're like, you know, what's going on? Or

1681
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:45,560
just people watch it today. I noticed and what they

1682
01:34:45,560 --> 01:34:48,279
see is like there's a shop that happens to be

1683
01:34:48,359 --> 01:34:51,199
run by this Korean couple and you know, the black

1684
01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:54,159
kid shoots them. It's like, no, that was They're talking

1685
01:34:54,159 --> 01:34:58,279
about something that was a prevailing theme in you know,

1686
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:01,239
like you said, rap songs, other black medium, this was

1687
01:35:01,279 --> 01:35:04,039
something that was that everybody talked about in Black communities

1688
01:35:04,079 --> 01:35:08,439
all the time is the Korean grocer, you know, So, yeah,

1689
01:35:08,439 --> 01:35:10,560
it doesn't have to be at all. I mean, really

1690
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:13,479
like if you look at the La Riots, two thousand

1691
01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:18,600
Korean businesses were burned down during the La Riots two thousand.

1692
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:22,479
When you look at like the Detroit riot in nineteen

1693
01:35:22,560 --> 01:35:24,399
sixty seven where they had to call in the eighty

1694
01:35:24,439 --> 01:35:26,680
second Airborne in one hundred and first and I mean,

1695
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:29,640
it was all out war there were it was one

1696
01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:32,600
of the nastiest riots in the country's history. There was

1697
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:34,960
something like four or five hundred buildings got burned down,

1698
01:35:35,239 --> 01:35:39,079
two thousand Korean businesses got burned down. There were videos

1699
01:35:39,119 --> 01:35:42,960
of groups of black rioters saying, you know, stay away

1700
01:35:42,960 --> 01:35:45,720
from that block over there, that's all owned by our people.

1701
01:35:45,760 --> 01:35:49,079
Let's go get those fucking Koreans. And so, I mean,

1702
01:35:49,079 --> 01:35:52,560
that's a program by any definition of the word. And

1703
01:35:53,319 --> 01:35:56,640
you know that happened in ninety two. In ninety one,

1704
01:35:57,279 --> 01:35:59,680
you have the Crown Heights Riot where a bunch of

1705
01:36:00,039 --> 01:36:05,920
dominantly like Jamaican and Kribbean Island are black residents of

1706
01:36:06,279 --> 01:36:12,600
this neighborhood in Brooklyn, you know, went on what hesitates

1707
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:14,520
to call it a pugrom not a lot of damage

1708
01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:16,439
was done and only one person was killed, but you

1709
01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:19,439
did have like mobs of black people marching through the

1710
01:36:19,479 --> 01:36:23,079
streets saying Hitler didn't finish the job and get the

1711
01:36:23,159 --> 01:36:26,079
jew and stuff and so. And both of those were

1712
01:36:26,159 --> 01:36:30,239
very much driven by the animosity that led to them

1713
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,439
was driven by similar circumstances. You know, it happened to

1714
01:36:34,479 --> 01:36:36,760
be the Koreans in la who owned all the businesses

1715
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:41,720
in black communities in you know, in Brooklyn, it happened

1716
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:44,880
to be a lot of Jews, and you know it

1717
01:36:44,920 --> 01:36:47,960
is it's a yeah, it's a problem, right because I mean,

1718
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:50,159
on one hand, if you look at the New York situation,

1719
01:36:51,079 --> 01:36:53,520
it's a little different than the Koreans, because the Koreans

1720
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:57,199
moved into black neighborhoods and opened these businesses and took

1721
01:36:57,239 --> 01:37:01,199
over kind of the commerce in those areas on the

1722
01:37:01,279 --> 01:37:07,439
East coast. In the Midwest, the Catholic and Jewish Euroethnics

1723
01:37:07,479 --> 01:37:10,479
that had previously lived in those places owned the real estate,

1724
01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:13,439
owned the businesses. You know, they got driven out by

1725
01:37:13,439 --> 01:37:16,119
the influx of black migrants from the South, and so

1726
01:37:16,199 --> 01:37:18,359
they just owned what they had always owned, and they

1727
01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:21,680
just continued to own it now that the population had changed,

1728
01:37:22,359 --> 01:37:26,720
and you know, that's just something that you're you know,

1729
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:30,079
people can chant diversities our strength all they want, and

1730
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:35,640
maybe on some level and in certain ways it does

1731
01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:40,880
strengthen us. But there are also extreme difficulties with managing

1732
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:46,239
a diverse society, you know, especially when when ethnicity or

1733
01:37:46,359 --> 01:37:50,960
race corresponds with social class in an uncomfortable way. You know,

1734
01:37:51,039 --> 01:37:53,640
it's very difficult to manage these things, especially in a

1735
01:37:53,680 --> 01:37:58,720
democracy quote unquote, where there's just always going to be

1736
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:02,119
an incentive for or demagogues to rise up and say,

1737
01:38:02,159 --> 01:38:05,439
the reason you're down here is because you know those

1738
01:38:05,479 --> 01:38:08,000
people up there don't like you, and it's a very

1739
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:12,000
appealing message to people who are in rough circumstances. You know.

1740
01:38:13,119 --> 01:38:15,319
I think if the I think if the Irish or

1741
01:38:15,319 --> 01:38:17,399
the Jews when they first came and in the first

1742
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:19,800
generation or two, when they were down at the bottom

1743
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:24,159
of the social scale, if they had had, you know,

1744
01:38:24,359 --> 01:38:27,359
sort of that same level of resentment for where they

1745
01:38:27,399 --> 01:38:31,920
were starting out and everything that a lot of blacks

1746
01:38:32,119 --> 01:38:35,800
kind of embraced in the twentieth century, they probably would

1747
01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:39,319
have ended up in a similar bad situation. You know.

1748
01:38:39,439 --> 01:38:41,359
But it was really the opposite. I mean they were.

1749
01:38:42,239 --> 01:38:46,439
I mean, shoot, they we all know, like people change

1750
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:50,199
their names to make them more familiar to Americans. You

1751
01:38:50,279 --> 01:38:54,560
hear about like ethnics in the Eastern cities, who you know,

1752
01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:57,680
the parents are immigrants and they won't allow their children

1753
01:38:57,840 --> 01:38:59,680
to speak the mother tongue at home. They're like, you

1754
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:02,159
speak English in this country, and you hear about that,

1755
01:39:02,279 --> 01:39:05,439
or even even my family, like you know, on my

1756
01:39:05,520 --> 01:39:10,359
father's side, my father's side came out to California as

1757
01:39:10,399 --> 01:39:13,000
part of the Oki migration during the dust Bowl in

1758
01:39:13,039 --> 01:39:17,840
the thirties. And you know that's something that is sort

1759
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:21,439
of romanticized for most people because of John Steinbeck and

1760
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:24,800
so forth. But this was, like, it was very, very similar.

1761
01:39:25,640 --> 01:39:28,079
It was a smaller scale, but you know, you got

1762
01:39:28,119 --> 01:39:34,079
these people who were like rowdy, hard drinking, fighting, rural

1763
01:39:34,159 --> 01:39:39,000
Southerners who were used to being basically sharecroppers or just

1764
01:39:39,039 --> 01:39:42,319
above sharecroppers, who are now moving over into California, and

1765
01:39:42,359 --> 01:39:44,600
people did not like them. You know, they thought of

1766
01:39:44,640 --> 01:39:48,640
them as vulgar, and the tent cities that sprang up

1767
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:53,640
to house them were you know, considered like just dens

1768
01:39:53,680 --> 01:39:58,840
of vice and crime and just disorder. You know, there

1769
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:02,640
there was a famous incident where the LAPD actually took

1770
01:40:02,720 --> 01:40:07,560
up positions on a freeway or a highway coming into

1771
01:40:08,399 --> 01:40:10,079
I guess it wouldn't have been a freeway, but a

1772
01:40:10,239 --> 01:40:13,479
road coming into Los Angeles County to prevent a caravan

1773
01:40:13,680 --> 01:40:16,720
of OKI's from coming into La County because they didn't

1774
01:40:16,720 --> 01:40:20,640
want them there. And so, you know, these are these

1775
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:23,319
are the kind of things that these are the kind

1776
01:40:23,359 --> 01:40:26,199
of things that happened in a country like ours. You know,

1777
01:40:26,239 --> 01:40:29,760
there's a reason that the Russians, for example, the Russian

1778
01:40:30,039 --> 01:40:33,239
the Russian Empire. You know, people hear about how you know,

1779
01:40:33,359 --> 01:40:37,479
Jews were restricted to the pale offf Settlement. They could

1780
01:40:37,479 --> 01:40:39,359
only live in the palist Settlement, which is a huge,

1781
01:40:39,439 --> 01:40:43,000
huge piece of territory. But you know, the Russians understood

1782
01:40:43,039 --> 01:40:45,600
that they were running an empire. The fact that they

1783
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:48,640
had all these different people, by definition, you're kind of

1784
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:52,199
running an empire by that point. And so you know,

1785
01:40:52,319 --> 01:40:53,920
it wasn't just the Jews who had to stay in

1786
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:57,239
the pale of settlement. The Tatars had to stay over there.

1787
01:40:57,319 --> 01:40:59,560
Everybody had to stay because they knew that once they

1788
01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:03,359
start all everybody just move around, you're going to get conflict,

1789
01:41:03,359 --> 01:41:04,960
and they didn't want to deal They didn't want to

1790
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:08,960
have to deal with that, you know, And I mean,

1791
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:13,920
you know, after they started to loosen those rules actually

1792
01:41:14,039 --> 01:41:16,399
in the late nineteen hundreds, he did start to get

1793
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:18,840
a late eighteen hundreds, he did start to get conflict.

1794
01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:22,399
And that conflict was I had a lot to do

1795
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:25,239
with the Jews starting to move over to the United States.

1796
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:28,439
So you know, you read about like a lot of

1797
01:41:28,439 --> 01:41:32,880
the pugroms that happened in the Russian Empire starting in

1798
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:36,560
the eighteen eighties, and you get the impression sometimes from

1799
01:41:36,600 --> 01:41:38,880
reading them, unless you read like a deep history of it,

1800
01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:41,000
that these are just like a bunch of Russians who

1801
01:41:41,079 --> 01:41:45,359
hate Jews attacking the Jews, and when a lot of

1802
01:41:45,359 --> 01:41:48,079
the times it was actually like you know, like you're

1803
01:41:48,079 --> 01:41:53,119
in Odessa and it's the Greek community there that is

1804
01:41:53,600 --> 01:41:56,600
in direct competition with the Jews who have now moved

1805
01:41:56,640 --> 01:41:59,159
in there for all of these industries that they used

1806
01:41:59,159 --> 01:42:00,960
to dominate, so that it's the source of the conflict,

1807
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:03,199
and they were the ones kind of leading a pogrom there.

1808
01:42:03,239 --> 01:42:05,880
You see that a lot. You know, these are just

1809
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:09,359
the difficulties again of trying to manage a diverse society.

1810
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:14,760
And you know when you when you're way of trying

1811
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:17,279
to manage that is to just not let anybody talk

1812
01:42:17,319 --> 01:42:21,079
about it, not let anybody voice their frustrations or their fears.

1813
01:42:22,079 --> 01:42:25,760
You know, things build up under the surface until enough

1814
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:27,399
pressure builds up that they blow out.

1815
01:42:28,359 --> 01:42:31,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've talked about the the Odessa program and of

1816
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:36,039
nineteen oh five before, and how the United States government

1817
01:42:36,199 --> 01:42:43,720
sanctioned Zar Nicholas over that. And you're like why, It's

1818
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:47,880
like who who in the government is telling who's manned

1819
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:51,199
into the government? Is like, we neeed to sanction this country,

1820
01:42:51,399 --> 01:42:54,399
this little city because of this something that happened halfway

1821
01:42:54,399 --> 01:42:56,520
around the world. But I wanted to go back to

1822
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:58,399
something that you had talked about. You had talked about

1823
01:42:58,439 --> 01:43:02,800
how the NAACP was basically started by Jews, funded by Jews,

1824
01:43:02,920 --> 01:43:04,640
and why.

1825
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:10,159
Speaker 2: You know, that's a good question. It's an interesting one.

1826
01:43:10,239 --> 01:43:15,920
I mean, on one level, you can understand why Jews

1827
01:43:15,920 --> 01:43:19,760
were involved with the civil rights movement, sort of identified

1828
01:43:19,800 --> 01:43:22,840
with the plight of black people in America before anybody else.

1829
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:29,399
A huge part of their of Jewish identity is tied up,

1830
01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:34,479
excuse me, in their sense of being like history's victims.

1831
01:43:34,880 --> 01:43:38,119
You know, that's a you know, before the twentieth century,

1832
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:41,079
that was their religious identity. You know, there were slaves

1833
01:43:41,079 --> 01:43:44,479
in Egypt and then they kept getting exiled and chased around,

1834
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:47,960
and that really was like the basis of their group

1835
01:43:48,039 --> 01:43:50,279
identity in a lot of ways. You get up to

1836
01:43:50,319 --> 01:43:53,239
the twentieth century and I saw a it's like a

1837
01:43:53,279 --> 01:43:56,399
pew or gallop pull that took place several years ago

1838
01:43:57,000 --> 01:44:00,920
where they were asking Jews around the cunt what they

1839
01:44:00,960 --> 01:44:04,239
thought the basis of like Jews, the primary basis of

1840
01:44:04,319 --> 01:44:08,039
Jewish identity was it was like, you know, belief in

1841
01:44:08,079 --> 01:44:13,279
the Torah, you know, affinity for the state of Israel,

1842
01:44:13,560 --> 01:44:16,399
the Holocaust, remembering the Holocaust was like it got like

1843
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:19,920
seventy percent. And so you have like an identity that

1844
01:44:20,039 --> 01:44:23,039
is that is very much based on a sense of victimhood.

1845
01:44:23,079 --> 01:44:27,239
And you can understand why they would identify with another

1846
01:44:27,279 --> 01:44:29,920
group of people who were you know, clearly second class

1847
01:44:29,920 --> 01:44:32,279
citizens as they were you know in certain ways in

1848
01:44:32,319 --> 01:44:38,079
the Russian Empire, although that gets overplayed in many many ways,

1849
01:44:38,560 --> 01:44:41,880
but you can understand where that certain sympathy would come from.

1850
01:44:43,039 --> 01:44:44,800
Part of it probably also has a lot to do

1851
01:44:44,880 --> 01:44:47,319
with the fact that the Eastern Jews who were coming over,

1852
01:44:47,399 --> 01:44:50,960
you know, they were coming at a time when when

1853
01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:55,439
like revolutionary and socialist revolutionary politics had just consumed the

1854
01:44:55,520 --> 01:45:00,479
Jewish community, especially the young people. You read about another

1855
01:45:01,279 --> 01:45:04,520
there was a letter from that same Zionist leader, High Invitzman,

1856
01:45:05,119 --> 01:45:08,520
who's writing to another Zionist leader about how he was

1857
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:12,920
over in Poland trying to get people to trying to

1858
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:15,199
find young Jews to convince him to be Zionists, why

1859
01:45:15,239 --> 01:45:17,239
they need to come down to Palestine and so forth.

1860
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,319
He says, I can't find any. Says every stutle I

1861
01:45:20,399 --> 01:45:22,920
go to, every village I go to, there's a bunch

1862
01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:25,399
of kids, there's a bunch of old people. All the

1863
01:45:25,479 --> 01:45:28,079
young people have left. They're all Communists now, or they're

1864
01:45:28,119 --> 01:45:31,199
all you know, involved in some movement like this now.

1865
01:45:31,239 --> 01:45:34,600
That's why, you know. In nineteen twenty five, Winston Churchill

1866
01:45:34,640 --> 01:45:42,279
wrote that that article Communism versus Bolshevism versus Zionism, and

1867
01:45:42,319 --> 01:45:44,119
it's pretty hilarious to read today.

1868
01:45:44,439 --> 01:45:47,319
Speaker 1: It reads like, well, especially when you know, especially when

1869
01:45:47,319 --> 01:45:48,520
you know the history of World War two.

1870
01:45:49,319 --> 01:45:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, in Churchill specifically, right, but you know he

1871
01:45:54,600 --> 01:45:57,119
you read it today and just with the level of

1872
01:45:57,159 --> 01:46:00,640
knowledge most people have about these issues today reads like

1873
01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:05,039
an insane John Birch conspiracy screed or something, but it's

1874
01:46:05,079 --> 01:46:08,680
really not, you know. And he was presenting the question

1875
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:12,760
to English readers the way that Jews, like Zionist Jews,

1876
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:16,159
were presenting it to them to their own people, which

1877
01:46:16,199 --> 01:46:20,560
is that everybody there was not a neutral Jew young

1878
01:46:20,680 --> 01:46:22,520
a young person. As far as the young people went

1879
01:46:22,640 --> 01:46:26,079
left in the Palist settlement, that's probably an exaggeration, but

1880
01:46:26,119 --> 01:46:28,960
not much of one. They were all either going over

1881
01:46:29,000 --> 01:46:31,560
into like communists and left wing politics, or they were

1882
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,039
becoming Zions And it really was like a battle for

1883
01:46:34,119 --> 01:46:38,960
the Jewish soul in a way. And you know, uh,

1884
01:46:39,279 --> 01:46:41,800
that sense of that sense of being history as victims,

1885
01:46:42,119 --> 01:46:44,800
I think probably did have a lot to do with

1886
01:46:45,039 --> 01:46:48,239
the sympathy that they that they had for blacks, but

1887
01:46:48,359 --> 01:46:52,000
it also ended up becoming the source of a lot

1888
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:56,439
of you know, black animosity toward Jews, because the simple

1889
01:46:56,479 --> 01:46:58,840
fact of the matter was that you know, for everything

1890
01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:04,159
we hear today about university quotas and some social club

1891
01:47:04,239 --> 01:47:06,720
that you know didn't allow Jewish members or something that

1892
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:09,760
Jews did find in the United States from the time

1893
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:14,520
they got here, you know, there were they certainly didn't

1894
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:21,399
face any any more obstacles to their integration and success

1895
01:47:21,479 --> 01:47:27,000
than like the Irish or the Italians did, and they integrated.

1896
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:28,800
By the time you get up into the twentieth century,

1897
01:47:28,840 --> 01:47:31,680
when the civil rights movement really gets going, you know,

1898
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:36,399
it could really grate on like a black activist to hear,

1899
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:39,640
you know, a Jewish student who had come down to

1900
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:43,119
Mississippi from the summer off from Columbia, you know, or

1901
01:47:43,159 --> 01:47:46,079
Harvard coming down and being like, yeah, you know, I'm

1902
01:47:46,119 --> 01:47:48,680
just like you, like I totally understand what you're going

1903
01:47:48,680 --> 01:47:52,520
through because I'm Jewish and you know, so it eventually

1904
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:54,840
ended up leading to a lot of the problems, you know,

1905
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:57,279
that sense of like, you know, who are you kidding?

1906
01:47:57,439 --> 01:47:59,359
Like that's that's ridiculous.

1907
01:48:00,079 --> 01:48:04,319
Speaker 1: You had mentioned earlier the Great Migration. Can you say

1908
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:10,880
when that was? And the numbers and yeah, so.

1909
01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:17,000
Speaker 2: When the First World War broke out, you know, all

1910
01:48:17,039 --> 01:48:19,399
those cities in the North that you think of today

1911
01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:25,159
as being like centers of black life in America, you know, Baltimore, Philly,

1912
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:31,319
New York, Chicago, Detroit, Saint Louis, all of them. The

1913
01:48:32,359 --> 01:48:36,319
black populations of those cities was typically between like one

1914
01:48:36,479 --> 01:48:40,399
and at the highest like maybe five percent, very small populations.

1915
01:48:40,680 --> 01:48:42,920
Ninety five percent of all the black people in the

1916
01:48:42,960 --> 01:48:47,840
country still lived in the rural south. And the First

1917
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:50,640
World War comes along, and we send millions of men,

1918
01:48:51,359 --> 01:48:54,560
white men over into the trenches in Europe and working

1919
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:58,239
administrative jobs for the military, and they have to leave

1920
01:48:58,399 --> 01:49:02,800
their industrial jobs right at a time when the industrial

1921
01:49:02,840 --> 01:49:06,359
base is expanding hugely because of the war. And so,

1922
01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:09,520
you know, everybody hears about Rosie the Riveter during World

1923
01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:11,680
War Two. You know, the women moving into the workforce,

1924
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:15,199
and that did happen to a degree, but the black

1925
01:49:15,319 --> 01:49:19,439
population being brought up into the north to be integrated

1926
01:49:19,479 --> 01:49:23,079
into the industrial workforce was really the primary way that

1927
01:49:23,119 --> 01:49:27,359
they filled it. And so starting with the First World

1928
01:49:27,399 --> 01:49:31,520
War in nineteen seventeen, you start getting a large migration.

1929
01:49:31,680 --> 01:49:34,239
It kind of becomes a flood very quickly, because you know,

1930
01:49:34,319 --> 01:49:36,199
one goes up there and he finds a job, and

1931
01:49:36,239 --> 01:49:39,199
he sends for others, and you know, they write back

1932
01:49:39,279 --> 01:49:41,199
about how great it is up there with no Jim

1933
01:49:41,279 --> 01:49:45,239
Crow or whatever. Because things really hadn't started to deteriorate

1934
01:49:45,279 --> 01:49:46,960
the way they would by the time you get to

1935
01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:50,960
the fifties and sixties, and so it becomes a big flood.

1936
01:49:51,000 --> 01:49:55,960
You know. You read like Isabella Patterson's book The Warmth

1937
01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:58,560
of other Sons, which is about the Great Migration, and

1938
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:03,199
it you know, it portrayed. It's a totally very like

1939
01:50:03,319 --> 01:50:06,199
Its angle is like this was the experience of these

1940
01:50:06,239 --> 01:50:09,199
black families and stuff as they were making this trip

1941
01:50:09,239 --> 01:50:11,159
and this transition, right, and so that's what it is,

1942
01:50:11,199 --> 01:50:12,840
and you get you know, one of the things she

1943
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:16,600
talks about is how once this got going and started building,

1944
01:50:16,600 --> 01:50:18,399
I mean, it was just a mad rush out of

1945
01:50:18,399 --> 01:50:21,359
the South and you had big spikes during the First

1946
01:50:21,359 --> 01:50:24,600
World War, continued you know, lowered a little bit, but

1947
01:50:24,640 --> 01:50:28,319
continued until the Second World War, and then you know,

1948
01:50:29,319 --> 01:50:32,000
I think we had something like sixteen or seventeen million

1949
01:50:32,680 --> 01:50:35,880
men called up for the Second World War, serving in

1950
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:39,159
various capacities, and most of those were white men because

1951
01:50:39,720 --> 01:50:43,760
the you know, the armed forces were still segregated, and

1952
01:50:43,800 --> 01:50:46,920
so that created a huge hole. Part of it was

1953
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:49,880
filled by Rosie the Riveter. A much larger part of

1954
01:50:49,920 --> 01:50:53,640
it was filled by a huge influx of black people

1955
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:55,520
coming from the South. I mean, you read about like,

1956
01:50:57,199 --> 01:51:00,279
you know, like that neighborhood of Brownsville, where Podhort was

1957
01:51:00,279 --> 01:51:04,239
from and where that teacher strike took place in. I

1958
01:51:04,239 --> 01:51:07,119
won't get the year exactly right, but it's like nineteen

1959
01:51:07,199 --> 01:51:10,800
fifty five. As late as nineteen fifty five, it's still

1960
01:51:10,840 --> 01:51:14,199
like seventy percent Jewish and Italian. You get up to

1961
01:51:14,279 --> 01:51:16,880
nineteen sixty five or I think nineteen sixty seven, so

1962
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:20,359
like a decade later, it's ninety six percent black in

1963
01:51:20,399 --> 01:51:24,800
Puerto Rican. I mean, you're talking about a massive influx,

1964
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:28,359
you know, eight hundred thousand people moving into New York

1965
01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:30,239
over the course of like a decade and a half.

1966
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:37,079
Just huge, and it obviously overwhelmed the city's ability to

1967
01:51:37,159 --> 01:51:39,319
absorb these people. You know, they didn't have places for

1968
01:51:39,359 --> 01:51:45,319
them to live, they didn't have you know, enough school facilities,

1969
01:51:45,319 --> 01:51:47,680
they didn't have the infrastructure to handle all this, you know,

1970
01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:50,960
especially since these people were coming up like the Irish

1971
01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:54,000
in the mid nineteenth century. You know, these are primarily

1972
01:51:54,159 --> 01:51:58,359
like illiterate sharecroppers from the rural South, many of whom

1973
01:51:58,359 --> 01:52:02,760
had never seen a big metropolis like New York City,

1974
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:06,439
you know, and let alone lived in one or participated in,

1975
01:52:07,039 --> 01:52:09,960
you know, the complex credit economy that was developing in

1976
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:13,079
the cities or you know, being subject to sort of

1977
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:20,199
regimented industrial labor, you know, and they struggled, you know,

1978
01:52:20,319 --> 01:52:24,119
just like the Irish struggled. And you know, by the

1979
01:52:24,159 --> 01:52:26,680
time you get up to the to the fifties and sixties,

1980
01:52:27,000 --> 01:52:31,359
as white flights like really taken hold the you know,

1981
01:52:31,399 --> 01:52:34,279
you have these neighborhoods that are again like ninety ninety

1982
01:52:34,319 --> 01:52:38,079
five percent black and a smattering of Puerto Ricans in them.

1983
01:52:39,119 --> 01:52:43,239
And you know, all of the businesses, primarily all of

1984
01:52:43,279 --> 01:52:46,880
the professional jobs like teachers and civil servants and various

1985
01:52:46,880 --> 01:52:49,399
things that are still in those places. Most of the

1986
01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:57,640
cops are still white. And you know, it's a if

1987
01:52:57,640 --> 01:53:00,399
somebody were to ask me, like, could this have gone

1988
01:53:00,439 --> 01:53:03,800
any differently? I don't know if it really could have

1989
01:53:03,880 --> 01:53:08,000
gone any better than it did. I mean without without

1990
01:53:08,439 --> 01:53:11,119
our political system just being completely different than it was.

1991
01:53:11,319 --> 01:53:13,960
You know, if we had a political system that in

1992
01:53:14,079 --> 01:53:19,680
nineteen sixty one, you know, through a hood over Malcolm

1993
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:21,520
X's head and dump them off in the middle of

1994
01:53:21,520 --> 01:53:24,800
the ocean, maybe you could deal with this a little

1995
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:27,920
bit differently. But in our society where it's sort of

1996
01:53:27,960 --> 01:53:31,000
open two demagogues and people who were going to stir

1997
01:53:31,119 --> 01:53:34,279
up anger for their own sort of for their own reasons.

1998
01:53:34,359 --> 01:53:38,920
Very very difficult, I think too, you know, especially because

1999
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:42,800
like it was just it was inevitable that the black

2000
01:53:42,840 --> 01:53:45,920
people who were coming up from the rural South, it

2001
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:47,800
was inevitable they were going to be at the bottom

2002
01:53:47,840 --> 01:53:49,920
of the social scale. You know, they didn't have any

2003
01:53:50,039 --> 01:53:53,720
skills that were applicable to city life. Most of them

2004
01:53:53,720 --> 01:53:58,319
couldn't read, you know, taking taking discrimination like completely out

2005
01:53:58,359 --> 01:54:00,399
of the picture. Like they were going to be at

2006
01:54:00,439 --> 01:54:02,399
the bottom, just like the Irish were at the bottom

2007
01:54:02,439 --> 01:54:05,720
when they came in the eighteen fifties. And you actually

2008
01:54:05,800 --> 01:54:08,760
see like before you get up to the era that

2009
01:54:08,920 --> 01:54:11,159
you know, the build up toward the sixties, it started

2010
01:54:11,159 --> 01:54:12,880
in the fifties, but before you get to that air

2011
01:54:12,960 --> 01:54:17,680
Have you ever seen that show Boardwalk Empire? Yes, yeah,

2012
01:54:17,720 --> 01:54:22,840
so you know that black white right, Yeah, So the

2013
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:26,119
way his wife behaves with her kids and stuff. You

2014
01:54:26,119 --> 01:54:27,920
remember that that was That's a real thing.

2015
01:54:28,039 --> 01:54:28,399
Speaker 1: There was.

2016
01:54:28,640 --> 01:54:31,600
Speaker 2: There was that immigrant mentality of like we need to

2017
01:54:33,279 --> 01:54:36,039
we need to assimilate into this society. We need to

2018
01:54:36,039 --> 01:54:39,880
be more prim and proper and more orderly and everything

2019
01:54:39,960 --> 01:54:42,640
than the whites. So that we can like assimilate into

2020
01:54:42,640 --> 01:54:46,439
this society. But her husband, who's like kind of more

2021
01:54:47,039 --> 01:54:51,239
more street, you know, uh, he goes along, he lets

2022
01:54:51,239 --> 01:54:53,399
her kind of run the household. But every time something

2023
01:54:53,439 --> 01:54:56,880
like this comes up, you know he did, he voices

2024
01:54:56,920 --> 01:54:59,520
his displeasure. You know, he sees it as you know,

2025
01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:02,359
selling out and bowing to the white man and everything.

2026
01:55:02,359 --> 01:55:06,159
And it's like, you know, look, given the history of

2027
01:55:06,239 --> 01:55:10,399
blacks in this country, like I understand where that mentality

2028
01:55:10,439 --> 01:55:13,960
comes from. You know, like there's there's a certain level

2029
01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:21,159
of like inevitable historical shame that comes with the fact,

2030
01:55:21,319 --> 01:55:25,520
you know, the simple fact that you know, your your whole,

2031
01:55:25,960 --> 01:55:28,680
your whole, all of your ancestors were slaves of the

2032
01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:31,880
people who you now live around in whose society you're

2033
01:55:31,920 --> 01:55:35,159
trying to integrate into, right, and so you can understand

2034
01:55:35,159 --> 01:55:37,680
where that resentment comes from. But it's very it's very

2035
01:55:37,720 --> 01:55:40,720
counterproductive and in his mentality when you get up into

2036
01:55:40,760 --> 01:55:43,119
the fifties and sixties, you know, of resenting all that

2037
01:55:43,239 --> 01:55:45,399
is selling out to the white man and everything became

2038
01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:48,520
dominant by the time you get to the sixties, and

2039
01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:52,199
so I mean you really start to see like you

2040
01:55:52,279 --> 01:55:56,119
start to see, uh, just writings from very prominent like

2041
01:55:56,199 --> 01:55:59,640
black intellectuals in the nineteen sixties. Who are you know

2042
01:55:59,720 --> 01:56:01,640
they say this stuff today, But it all started in

2043
01:56:01,640 --> 01:56:06,399
the sixties about how, you know, things like kids disruptive

2044
01:56:06,439 --> 01:56:09,520
behavior in schools, like well, that's you're holding them to

2045
01:56:09,600 --> 01:56:13,399
white standards or just all of these other different things.

2046
01:56:13,399 --> 01:56:17,840
It's like that is just an objectively like you're going

2047
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:20,279
down a very bad road, you know, and you're not

2048
01:56:20,359 --> 01:56:23,359
going to make much progress with that kind of mentality.

2049
01:56:23,439 --> 01:56:25,800
Even if it even if you can sympathize with or

2050
01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:28,479
understand where it came from, it definitely derailed them. I mean,

2051
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:31,800
if you look at pretty much any statistic you want

2052
01:56:31,840 --> 01:56:34,720
to look at for Black Americans from the Civil from

2053
01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:39,439
the end of the Civil War up through about like

2054
01:56:39,520 --> 01:56:43,960
the mid fifties to the early sixties, everything you want

2055
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:48,119
to look at, from wealth to just everything, it's up, up, up, up,

2056
01:56:48,199 --> 01:56:51,159
up up up. And then you hit the sixties, when

2057
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:54,680
you get the Civil Rights Act, you get the Voting

2058
01:56:54,760 --> 01:56:58,399
Rights Act, you get this sort of mass consciousness among

2059
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:01,720
white America that this is an issue that maybe needs

2060
01:57:01,720 --> 01:57:04,760
to be addressed. And you know, so you would expect

2061
01:57:04,840 --> 01:57:08,520
if it was going up before it would just skyrocket

2062
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:11,199
at this point. But you can look at those graphs

2063
01:57:11,239 --> 01:57:14,720
and you start with the sixties and everything just collapses,

2064
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:19,279
and it's collapsed, you know really to the present day.

2065
01:57:19,479 --> 01:57:23,520
I mean, it's you know, things like crime rates obviously

2066
01:57:23,560 --> 01:57:28,000
have decreased since the nineteen nineties, but you know the

2067
01:57:28,399 --> 01:57:32,439
proportion of who's committing the crimes really is not changed.

2068
01:57:33,520 --> 01:57:36,560
And you know that's something that like we talk about

2069
01:57:36,560 --> 01:57:40,239
white flight. You know, people just people today really don't

2070
01:57:40,239 --> 01:57:44,560
have any they don't have like a real understanding of

2071
01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:47,159
what it's like. I mean, you just have to imagine,

2072
01:57:47,159 --> 01:57:49,640
like my wife's Armenian, right, and so over here in

2073
01:57:49,680 --> 01:57:53,319
Glendale and Los Angeles, that's the Armenian neighbor There's buildings

2074
01:57:53,319 --> 01:57:55,560
with Armenian writing all over them, and you know there's

2075
01:57:55,600 --> 01:57:58,840
other people there, but that's there are more Armenians in

2076
01:57:58,880 --> 01:58:02,199
Glendale than there are in any place in the world

2077
01:58:02,279 --> 01:58:04,680
other than Yerevon. And you know the capital of Armenia,

2078
01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:07,319
it's little Armena. It's what it is. And so you know,

2079
01:58:07,359 --> 01:58:09,840
you just imagine a place like that or a China town.

2080
01:58:10,079 --> 01:58:13,079
You know, something that over the course of ten years

2081
01:58:13,319 --> 01:58:18,319
is ninety five percent plaque and all the crime is

2082
01:58:18,319 --> 01:58:22,199
being committed by this new group of people. All of

2083
01:58:22,239 --> 01:58:25,319
the disorder, you know, is being committed by these this

2084
01:58:25,640 --> 01:58:28,760
new group of people, and you're gonna have real issues.

2085
01:58:28,800 --> 01:58:35,359
I mean, you know, and you know, people were people

2086
01:58:35,359 --> 01:58:37,399
were afraid. I mean, you know, like it doesn't matter

2087
01:58:37,439 --> 01:58:40,520
how how liberal you are, when your when your kid

2088
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:43,520
comes home with, you know, having taken a baseball bat

2089
01:58:43,560 --> 01:58:45,319
to the head at school that day, you're going to

2090
01:58:45,359 --> 01:58:48,960
start looking for you know, for rental or real estate

2091
01:58:49,000 --> 01:58:51,560
ads in the suburbs, you know. And that's really what

2092
01:58:51,640 --> 01:58:54,239
happened in the sixties. Well started in the fifties, but

2093
01:58:55,159 --> 01:58:57,479
but was completed by the sixties.

2094
01:58:58,479 --> 01:59:02,199
Speaker 1: When you look at Brown Versus of Education nineteen fifty four,

2095
01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:06,520
we know who wrote it. They have Jewish last names.

2096
01:59:06,760 --> 01:59:11,880
They wanted to for whatever reason, not going to point

2097
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:15,840
any fingers and say anything, you know, say it was

2098
01:59:15,840 --> 01:59:20,720
for nefarious reasons, but they wanted to integrate the schools.

2099
01:59:21,199 --> 01:59:29,199
And almost immediately it became evident that that was a really,

2100
01:59:29,319 --> 01:59:35,840
really bad idea. And I mean, how do we how

2101
01:59:35,840 --> 01:59:37,760
do we talk about that? I mean I've been talking

2102
01:59:37,760 --> 01:59:40,960
about it by reading a book that takes place in

2103
01:59:41,000 --> 01:59:43,640
the late sixties, but starts in nineteen fifty eight talking

2104
01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:49,720
about the formation of the New York City Teachers' Union

2105
01:59:49,920 --> 01:59:56,000
the UFT, and what happened, I mean, what happened. It

2106
01:59:56,079 --> 02:00:00,239
was sure there were crime rates that were out of control,

2107
02:00:00,720 --> 02:00:06,920
but there was not this the military. It's the militancy

2108
02:00:07,039 --> 02:00:11,119
that really really did this in And where did that

2109
02:00:11,159 --> 02:00:12,720
militancy come from?

2110
02:00:12,800 --> 02:00:17,439
Speaker 2: Though, you know, I think part of it had to

2111
02:00:17,479 --> 02:00:25,600
do with before the before the mid sixties. You know,

2112
02:00:25,720 --> 02:00:29,159
the whole focus of the black rights movement in America

2113
02:00:29,239 --> 02:00:33,439
was all on the South, and this was you know

2114
02:00:33,479 --> 02:00:35,439
that that was a problem that you could look at,

2115
02:00:35,520 --> 02:00:38,880
and it was a very concrete problem, right from the

2116
02:00:38,920 --> 02:00:41,439
standpoint of like the people who were pushing integration, like

2117
02:00:41,479 --> 02:00:44,000
it was a very concrete problem to fix. And the

2118
02:00:44,039 --> 02:00:48,039
black people in the South, you know, they may have

2119
02:00:48,119 --> 02:00:51,079
resented Jim Crow, they may have resented, you know, just

2120
02:00:51,239 --> 02:00:54,960
the whole situation down there, but just over the years

2121
02:00:55,920 --> 02:00:57,920
had kind of learned to live with it a little

2122
02:00:57,920 --> 02:01:01,760
bit and learned, you know, like there was I was

2123
02:01:01,800 --> 02:01:06,000
reading recently this story of this book about the Black

2124
02:01:06,039 --> 02:01:09,239
Liberation Army, and in the early seventies they were running

2125
02:01:09,239 --> 02:01:12,000
around killing cops and one of them, mentions that he's

2126
02:01:12,039 --> 02:01:14,520
interviewing one of them, and he talks about how he

2127
02:01:14,560 --> 02:01:17,680
would always drive whenever they were going somewhere because him,

2128
02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:19,880
being from the South, had manners when it came to

2129
02:01:19,880 --> 02:01:22,279
white people because he's yes, sir, no, sir, you know

2130
02:01:22,319 --> 02:01:25,399
how to talk like that. Whereas his buddies who were

2131
02:01:25,399 --> 02:01:27,439
in the car with them, who grew up in you know,

2132
02:01:27,479 --> 02:01:30,640
the Bronx, they didn't have any of that. And you

2133
02:01:30,760 --> 02:01:33,159
kind of get an this is something that like, I

2134
02:01:33,199 --> 02:01:35,640
don't I don't think I've ever seen anybody else really

2135
02:01:36,079 --> 02:01:38,960
point out, but I think it. I think it's definitely

2136
02:01:39,079 --> 02:01:41,359
got a lot to do with it is you know,

2137
02:01:41,399 --> 02:01:44,800
any group of immigrants, and I'm gonna call the blacks

2138
02:01:44,800 --> 02:01:48,439
of the Great Migration immigrants just because I mean, shoot,

2139
02:01:48,439 --> 02:01:52,720
when you're moving from Louisiana to Los Angeles or Oakland,

2140
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:56,560
I mean, that's a much larger migration than moving from

2141
02:01:56,840 --> 02:01:59,399
you know, Greece to Italy or something, right in terms

2142
02:01:59,399 --> 02:02:04,840
of and it's probably just as culturally shocking. And you know,

2143
02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:10,079
the when when other immigrant groups would come in, Oh gosh,

2144
02:02:10,119 --> 02:02:13,920
I lost my train of thought. Put that aside. I

2145
02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:20,079
was gonna say that bail me out here. I'll think

2146
02:02:20,079 --> 02:02:20,359
of it.

2147
02:02:22,399 --> 02:02:25,600
Speaker 1: Well, we were talking, we're talking about segregation, well we're

2148
02:02:25,640 --> 02:02:28,760
talking about integration. Integrating the schools said it was easier

2149
02:02:28,760 --> 02:02:32,199
on the side. Then you started talking about the about

2150
02:02:32,239 --> 02:02:35,119
the book you were reading, and how.

2151
02:02:35,319 --> 02:02:37,960
Speaker 2: Right right, right, right right, So you know that he

2152
02:02:38,039 --> 02:02:41,560
had those Southern manners. And I haven't seen anybody else

2153
02:02:41,600 --> 02:02:44,560
really kind of put this out in a direct way,

2154
02:02:44,600 --> 02:02:47,560
but I think people have probably thought about it at

2155
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:50,800
least is you know, any any immigrant group that comes

2156
02:02:50,840 --> 02:02:53,439
into a place, usually you hear this all the time

2157
02:02:53,479 --> 02:02:56,159
when people point out, like today they're talking about Latin

2158
02:02:56,199 --> 02:02:58,319
American immigrants and they say, oh, they have a lower

2159
02:02:58,399 --> 02:03:03,279
crime rate than, you know, than American citizens. And it's like, okay,

2160
02:03:03,319 --> 02:03:06,319
that's true, but what about their kids, because that's a

2161
02:03:06,319 --> 02:03:08,720
different situation. That is when you really start to see

2162
02:03:08,720 --> 02:03:10,359
that kind of thing. And you really saw that with

2163
02:03:10,479 --> 02:03:12,720
the you know, because immigrants, you come into a place

2164
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:14,640
and you're trying to get along. You know, you're trying

2165
02:03:14,680 --> 02:03:17,520
to find your little place and keep your head down

2166
02:03:17,640 --> 02:03:20,800
and you know, work and raise your family. Plus if

2167
02:03:20,840 --> 02:03:23,640
you are an immigrant who's coming from a place, you know,

2168
02:03:23,800 --> 02:03:27,560
as a refugee of some kind, you know, even an

2169
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:31,600
economic refugee or something. Whatever things are like in the

2170
02:03:31,600 --> 02:03:33,840
new country is probably somewhat better than it was in

2171
02:03:33,880 --> 02:03:35,800
the old country, So you don't you know, that's what

2172
02:03:35,840 --> 02:03:39,439
you have to compare to. And so the black migrants

2173
02:03:39,600 --> 02:03:44,000
who came up into the North and South from the South,

2174
02:03:44,399 --> 02:03:46,880
you know, these are people who had lived their lives

2175
02:03:46,920 --> 02:03:49,159
and their parents had lived their lives in the South

2176
02:03:49,239 --> 02:03:52,760
where they understood that there were you know, the bad

2177
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:55,359
things happened if you pissed off the white people, and

2178
02:03:55,479 --> 02:03:58,000
there was just a certain level of deference that they

2179
02:03:58,039 --> 02:04:02,920
may have resented but had sort of learned to just

2180
02:04:03,479 --> 02:04:05,119
it was just a part of the way they approached

2181
02:04:05,159 --> 02:04:05,520
the world.

2182
02:04:05,600 --> 02:04:05,800
Speaker 1: Right.

2183
02:04:06,600 --> 02:04:10,159
Speaker 2: And their kids, you know, were the kids who grew

2184
02:04:10,239 --> 02:04:14,119
up beating the shit out of Norman pod Hortz at school, right,

2185
02:04:14,439 --> 02:04:18,039
and and they realized that, you know, they didn't have

2186
02:04:18,079 --> 02:04:21,000
to be afraid of white people that you know, most

2187
02:04:21,000 --> 02:04:23,920
of the time white people were afraid of them. You know,

2188
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:26,079
that's one of the dirty secrets kind of of like

2189
02:04:26,199 --> 02:04:29,159
modern America, is that most white people are afraid of

2190
02:04:29,199 --> 02:04:32,800
black people. Liberals, conservatives, they really are. You don't see

2191
02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:35,479
it as much in the South, Southerners, it's not so true.

2192
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:37,640
But up in the up in the in the cities,

2193
02:04:38,039 --> 02:04:41,319
your average white person is afraid of black people, and

2194
02:04:41,359 --> 02:04:43,479
not just because they could call them, you know, a

2195
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:45,439
racist and get them in trouble or something. There's just

2196
02:04:45,479 --> 02:04:49,720
a certain you know, there's a fear there that a

2197
02:04:49,720 --> 02:04:51,439
lot of people have, you know, and I noticed it

2198
02:04:51,479 --> 02:04:53,720
because I grew up around black people and so I

2199
02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:57,159
have a comfort with them that is kind of bone deep.

2200
02:04:57,239 --> 02:05:01,479
But you know that second generations started to come of

2201
02:05:01,520 --> 02:05:06,680
age in the late fifties, early sixties, and so now

2202
02:05:06,720 --> 02:05:10,840
you have these young adult black kids who never lived

2203
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:14,520
in the South, who grew up watching their parents kind

2204
02:05:14,560 --> 02:05:18,039
of be deferential to the white people, and you know,

2205
02:05:18,439 --> 02:05:23,439
didn't like seeing that. But now they're eighteen, nineteen, twenty

2206
02:05:23,520 --> 02:05:26,399
years old, and they grew up you know, again in

2207
02:05:26,479 --> 02:05:29,680
the mix mixed race schools with white kids who were

2208
02:05:29,680 --> 02:05:32,000
afraid of getting beaten up by them, and they didn't

2209
02:05:32,039 --> 02:05:36,039
have any of that fear, and so there was you know,

2210
02:05:36,079 --> 02:05:39,239
you would never have seen a I want to say never,

2211
02:05:39,319 --> 02:05:41,199
but like it would have been very rare for a

2212
02:05:41,239 --> 02:05:45,680
first generation black migrant from the South to you know,

2213
02:05:45,920 --> 02:05:48,880
to talk back to or let alone get violent with

2214
02:05:48,920 --> 02:05:51,239
a police officer in the north, just like would be

2215
02:05:51,319 --> 02:05:56,199
very rare because they understood, like you know, or they

2216
02:05:56,319 --> 02:05:59,279
probably they assumed something. It probably wasn't so true that

2217
02:05:59,319 --> 02:06:02,520
they would be real consequences for that, and you know,

2218
02:06:02,560 --> 02:06:04,439
their kids just didn't think that way, and they were

2219
02:06:04,520 --> 02:06:08,479
much more willing to uh to just yeah, get wild.

2220
02:06:08,520 --> 02:06:10,319
I guess let's.

2221
02:06:10,079 --> 02:06:12,840
Speaker 1: Get into it. Let's get into the riots in the sixties.

2222
02:06:14,159 --> 02:06:17,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, the first the first real race, right, I think, like,

2223
02:06:17,600 --> 02:06:19,840
you know, at least at a real scale, was probably

2224
02:06:19,880 --> 02:06:23,239
Harlem in nineteen sixty four, and it wasn't huge compared

2225
02:06:23,279 --> 02:06:26,199
to what you'd see the next year in Watts or

2226
02:06:26,600 --> 02:06:30,600
or the rest of the decade, but you know, that happened.

2227
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:32,880
You asked, like, where the militancy came from? This, you know,

2228
02:06:32,960 --> 02:06:35,239
something I've been reading about lately, and it's hard to

2229
02:06:35,279 --> 02:06:37,680
find really good stuff on it, but I have been

2230
02:06:37,920 --> 02:06:42,039
finding a few things. There was certainly like an element

2231
02:06:42,319 --> 02:06:46,359
in the rise in black militancy. How great of a

2232
02:06:46,399 --> 02:06:48,439
factor it was, I'm still trying to hash out. But

2233
02:06:48,520 --> 02:06:52,960
an element was definitely a communist subversion, you know, like

2234
02:06:53,000 --> 02:06:56,319
the American Communist Party in that nineteen sixty four Harlem riot.

2235
02:06:56,840 --> 02:06:59,760
You know, there's a there's a famous black activist who

2236
02:07:00,800 --> 02:07:03,199
you know, he told a reporter or he was given

2237
02:07:03,239 --> 02:07:05,359
a speech maybe in a reporter heard it that if

2238
02:07:05,359 --> 02:07:09,439
he had one hundred dedicated black militants who were black guerrillas,

2239
02:07:09,439 --> 02:07:12,039
who were ready to die for the cause, they could

2240
02:07:12,079 --> 02:07:13,920
burn the whole city down. And like they were talking

2241
02:07:13,920 --> 02:07:16,640
about that guy was one of the leaders of the

2242
02:07:16,800 --> 02:07:19,560
New York branch of the Communist Party of America, right,

2243
02:07:19,880 --> 02:07:21,600
And you see this a lot in a lot of

2244
02:07:21,600 --> 02:07:24,920
these riots where the people who are primarily inciting them

2245
02:07:25,399 --> 02:07:32,239
have not sort of indirect but direct affiliations with the CPUSA,

2246
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:34,680
And so that might be I have something to do

2247
02:07:34,720 --> 02:07:37,640
with it as well when you get up to you know,

2248
02:07:38,199 --> 02:07:41,800
a book by Rick Pearlstein Nixon Land, who you know,

2249
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:44,640
I don't agree with his politics or anything, but sometimes

2250
02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:48,359
you still find good historical anecdotes. You know, he talks

2251
02:07:48,399 --> 02:07:51,880
about how he talks about this period in nineteen sixty four,

2252
02:07:52,000 --> 02:07:55,800
sixty five when burned sixty five, when Lyndon Johnson had,

2253
02:07:55,880 --> 02:08:00,520
you know, won the presidency easily and they're about to

2254
02:08:00,560 --> 02:08:02,640
pass the Voting Rights Act, and there's this peer you

2255
02:08:02,680 --> 02:08:07,600
read the rhetoric from Lyndon Johnson from you know, just senators,

2256
02:08:07,640 --> 02:08:10,720
other you know, major leaders, and they're still talking like

2257
02:08:10,760 --> 02:08:15,760
the future that's coming is this star trek Jetson's just utopia,

2258
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:18,239
you know, and they really still thought that up till

2259
02:08:18,279 --> 02:08:21,319
like sixty five. And it's very interesting because you know,

2260
02:08:21,680 --> 02:08:24,479
Lyndon Johnson gave like the most famous speech of his

2261
02:08:24,600 --> 02:08:27,319
career on the eve of the passage of the Voting

2262
02:08:27,399 --> 02:08:32,319
Rights Act and in sixty five, which was happening at

2263
02:08:32,319 --> 02:08:35,079
the same time that the Selma marches were going on,

2264
02:08:35,800 --> 02:08:40,279
and it's just a I mean, it's almost like a

2265
02:08:40,399 --> 02:08:42,840
it's a sermon more than it is a speech, really,

2266
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:44,880
you know, I mean, it really is just this soaring

2267
02:08:44,960 --> 02:08:49,760
rhetoric and everything. And one week later, the Wats riot

2268
02:08:49,840 --> 02:08:52,760
and Los Angeles broke out. And this was something that,

2269
02:08:52,920 --> 02:08:55,520
like you know, the Harlem riot in sixty four didn't

2270
02:08:55,520 --> 02:08:58,039
get a lot of national publicity. It was something that

2271
02:08:58,079 --> 02:09:00,880
New Yorkers knew about, but most people outside of there didn't.

2272
02:09:01,239 --> 02:09:03,640
The watch were right. It was so huge, and the

2273
02:09:03,680 --> 02:09:09,359
aggression was so intense, and the level of devastation that

2274
02:09:09,399 --> 02:09:13,319
people were seeing was so overwhelming. I mean, you had

2275
02:09:13,399 --> 02:09:16,039
you know, because this was a uh, this was a

2276
02:09:16,079 --> 02:09:19,159
televised riode. It was the first major televised ride in

2277
02:09:19,159 --> 02:09:22,239
America you had, you know, So people were glued to

2278
02:09:22,279 --> 02:09:26,359
their screens for four or five days watching live footage

2279
02:09:26,399 --> 02:09:30,039
of you know, firefighters trying to put out fires and

2280
02:09:30,119 --> 02:09:33,720
getting attacked by mobs, and the mobs dancing around the

2281
02:09:33,720 --> 02:09:38,640
burning building, you know, and you know, or watching footage

2282
02:09:38,680 --> 02:09:41,960
from a from a TV news helicopter that suddenly has

2283
02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:44,720
to veer away because it's taking small arms fire from

2284
02:09:44,760 --> 02:09:46,600
the ground, you know. And so people are watching this

2285
02:09:46,760 --> 02:09:50,199
and they're like, you know, if you read like Christopher

2286
02:09:50,199 --> 02:09:53,840
Colwell's book Age of Entitlement, for example, he really does

2287
02:09:53,840 --> 02:09:57,039
a great job of showing how when Americans passed the

2288
02:09:57,079 --> 02:10:00,600
Civil Rights Act, they looked at that almost is like

2289
02:10:00,640 --> 02:10:04,319
a foreign policy issue. There was this very specific problem

2290
02:10:04,439 --> 02:10:08,640
in the South where you know, the southern institutions, the

2291
02:10:08,640 --> 02:10:12,920
governments and stuff down there were denying black people rights

2292
02:10:12,960 --> 02:10:16,039
that the Supreme Court had said that they have, and

2293
02:10:16,520 --> 02:10:19,840
you've got to give the federal government certain special emergency

2294
02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:22,800
powers to deal with this crisis. Basically, right, That's how

2295
02:10:22,800 --> 02:10:26,640
people saw it, and they didn't understand they were bringing in,

2296
02:10:26,880 --> 02:10:29,800
you know, the way Caldwell puts it, is a rival constitution,

2297
02:10:30,079 --> 02:10:34,319
you know, and just a whole new approach to politics

2298
02:10:34,359 --> 02:10:37,399
in America. Really was was inaugurated with the passage of

2299
02:10:37,399 --> 02:10:41,920
the Civil Rights Act, and you know, so that happened.

2300
02:10:41,920 --> 02:10:44,279
You have, like, you know, the Civil Rights Act passes

2301
02:10:44,319 --> 02:10:47,600
in sixty four. Again, most people outside the South see

2302
02:10:47,600 --> 02:10:50,199
that as almost a foreign policy issue for those people

2303
02:10:50,239 --> 02:10:52,880
over there. And then you have the Voting Rights Act,

2304
02:10:52,920 --> 02:10:55,119
same thing, that's how people are seeing it. And then

2305
02:10:55,159 --> 02:10:57,359
you have one week after the Voting Rights Act, you

2306
02:10:57,399 --> 02:11:00,359
have the Watch Riots and it's nationally televised and are

2307
02:11:00,439 --> 02:11:04,359
starting to realize that like, oh, this is actually, you know,

2308
02:11:04,439 --> 02:11:07,479
this isn't just a Southern problem, This isn't everybody problem.

2309
02:11:08,119 --> 02:11:12,039
And you know, the way the Wats riots were covered

2310
02:11:12,880 --> 02:11:17,159
and the way they were sort of taken up by

2311
02:11:17,199 --> 02:11:20,399
black militants at that point, and the fact that the

2312
02:11:20,439 --> 02:11:23,800
older civil rights leaders, you know generation, the Martin Luther

2313
02:11:23,880 --> 02:11:26,279
King generation, by the time you get up really after

2314
02:11:26,279 --> 02:11:28,720
the passage of the Voting Rights Act, really was on

2315
02:11:28,760 --> 02:11:33,319
the decline, you know, because what could be achieved in

2316
02:11:33,359 --> 02:11:35,960
the South had been achieved by those two laws. You know,

2317
02:11:36,000 --> 02:11:39,199
that was the thinking, and so they shifted their focus

2318
02:11:39,239 --> 02:11:41,640
to the North, and it was just clear immediately that

2319
02:11:42,199 --> 02:11:47,520
you know that these guys were not prepared for they

2320
02:11:47,560 --> 02:11:49,520
didn't have any answers for the black people in the

2321
02:11:49,560 --> 02:11:52,159
North because these weren't problems of like you can't vote,

2322
02:11:52,319 --> 02:11:55,880
or you're not allowed to go in to that, to

2323
02:11:55,960 --> 02:11:58,520
that establishment or something. I mean, these were much more

2324
02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:04,800
complicated socio economic and social friction issues that a march

2325
02:12:05,000 --> 02:12:07,119
was really not going to do a whole lot to fix.

2326
02:12:07,199 --> 02:12:07,359
Speaker 1: Right.

2327
02:12:07,399 --> 02:12:10,319
Speaker 2: So you see, like in nineteen sixty six when King

2328
02:12:10,399 --> 02:12:14,279
goes up to Marquette Park in Chicago, they didn't achieve

2329
02:12:14,359 --> 02:12:18,359
anything there. You know, the white people, or I think,

2330
02:12:18,399 --> 02:12:21,880
as I understand it, the neighborhood he was trying to integrate.

2331
02:12:22,399 --> 02:12:24,279
You know, people think of it as a white neighborhood today,

2332
02:12:24,319 --> 02:12:26,920
and the white people came out and counter protested and everything,

2333
02:12:27,159 --> 02:12:29,720
but that really it was actually a Lithuanian neighborhood. It

2334
02:12:29,720 --> 02:12:33,680
was a Lithuanian Catholic parish neighborhood. And I think King

2335
02:12:34,119 --> 02:12:36,640
probably didn't even understand that, I think, because in the

2336
02:12:36,680 --> 02:12:39,039
South that's not how it was. You know, in the South,

2337
02:12:39,199 --> 02:12:43,000
racial politics was the order of the day, right, I mean,

2338
02:12:43,039 --> 02:12:45,920
because that's just how people thought based on you know,

2339
02:12:46,000 --> 02:12:48,359
I mean the you know, because mainly because all of

2340
02:12:48,359 --> 02:12:51,119
the Euroethnics that started to mass immigrate into the US

2341
02:12:51,119 --> 02:12:53,439
in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, they didn't move to

2342
02:12:53,479 --> 02:12:55,880
the south. They moved to the northern cities. And so

2343
02:12:55,880 --> 02:12:58,319
whereas you had ethnic politics in the north, you had

2344
02:12:58,399 --> 02:13:01,920
racial politics in the south. And so when you know,

2345
02:13:02,079 --> 02:13:05,720
King goes up to Chicago into this Lithuanian Catholic parish

2346
02:13:05,960 --> 02:13:10,920
and he's trying to you know, integrate the neighborhood, you know,

2347
02:13:11,039 --> 02:13:14,159
they they see this as an attack on them specifically,

2348
02:13:14,279 --> 02:13:17,279
and and it you know, the really interesting thing is,

2349
02:13:17,319 --> 02:13:19,000
I'm working on a piece about this right now, is

2350
02:13:19,119 --> 02:13:21,319
in a lot of ways it really was, you know,

2351
02:13:21,439 --> 02:13:26,640
the the wasp establishment in the country. You know, they

2352
02:13:26,760 --> 02:13:30,000
really did see John Lindsay, the mayor of New York

2353
02:13:30,000 --> 02:13:34,399
in sixty five, his first Welfare commissioner, guy named Morris,

2354
02:13:34,520 --> 02:13:37,079
He actually uses the term battering ram. He says, We're

2355
02:13:37,079 --> 02:13:39,399
you going to use the black migrants as a battering

2356
02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:43,560
ram to break up these little ethnic enclaves that creates

2357
02:13:43,600 --> 02:13:45,960
so much you know, political corruption. As they see it

2358
02:13:46,039 --> 02:13:48,760
and all this stuff, and so they really they really

2359
02:13:48,800 --> 02:13:51,960
did view it that way. And there's a lot there.

2360
02:13:52,079 --> 02:13:55,359
I got a whole list of quotes and examples and

2361
02:13:55,359 --> 02:13:56,880
stuff that I'm going to put out in this piece

2362
02:13:57,720 --> 02:14:01,800
about how direct and aggressive like this was an attack

2363
02:14:02,000 --> 02:14:06,119
on primarily Catholic but ended up in New York at

2364
02:14:06,199 --> 02:14:10,760
least being Jewish communities as well. And you know, so

2365
02:14:10,800 --> 02:14:15,439
what ended up happening eventually just partly because you know,

2366
02:14:15,479 --> 02:14:18,760
the like we were talking about this before we got

2367
02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:21,600
on the air, you go to a place like New York,

2368
02:14:21,640 --> 02:14:24,600
which is so fascinating if you want to learn about

2369
02:14:24,640 --> 02:14:29,720
the history of like American ethnic politics, right, it's you know,

2370
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:32,239
you had if you go back to the nineteen fifties

2371
02:14:32,239 --> 02:14:35,399
and you read the liberals in New York talking about

2372
02:14:36,000 --> 02:14:38,960
what do we do about this huge influx of black migrants.

2373
02:14:38,960 --> 02:14:41,840
You know, these people are struggling, there's all these things.

2374
02:14:42,000 --> 02:14:43,760
How are we going to deal with this? And they

2375
02:14:43,760 --> 02:14:48,640
were all very optimistic that, Okay, you had Jews, they

2376
02:14:48,640 --> 02:14:52,840
had their neighborhoods and their interests and certain elements of

2377
02:14:53,319 --> 02:14:56,680
you know, the social service jobs like the teachers for example,

2378
02:14:56,760 --> 02:15:00,399
that were theirs. The Irish there got their neighbor hoods,

2379
02:15:00,399 --> 02:15:03,279
and there's certain like parts of the government that everybody

2380
02:15:03,359 --> 02:15:05,319
kind of understands the Irish or kind of you know,

2381
02:15:05,640 --> 02:15:08,199
and they were the cops and the firefighters. The Italians

2382
02:15:08,199 --> 02:15:10,680
got the construction contracts with the city, and they ran

2383
02:15:10,800 --> 02:15:13,520
waste management, and that the Blacks would come in and

2384
02:15:13,600 --> 02:15:15,960
kind of take their place as one of the ethnicities

2385
02:15:16,039 --> 02:15:20,239
in New York City. And what happened was the influx

2386
02:15:20,319 --> 02:15:25,319
was so big and ended up being so disruptive and

2387
02:15:25,479 --> 02:15:29,159
so traumatic for all of the people who were affected

2388
02:15:29,199 --> 02:15:33,640
by it that it really, you know, it like the

2389
02:15:34,119 --> 02:15:36,399
Great Migration kind of really put an end to ethnic

2390
02:15:36,520 --> 02:15:40,760
politics in America, which again was part of part of

2391
02:15:40,760 --> 02:15:42,840
that was on purpose, like that's something that the WASP

2392
02:15:43,000 --> 02:15:45,800
wanted to accomplish, you know, and it really did put

2393
02:15:45,800 --> 02:15:48,319
an end to it. You don't really hear anything about,

2394
02:15:48,680 --> 02:15:51,119
you know, there's little things here and there, with the

2395
02:15:51,119 --> 02:15:53,199
exception of Jews actually because they you know, they're the

2396
02:15:53,199 --> 02:15:56,119
one group that didn't when they moved out to the suburbs,

2397
02:15:56,159 --> 02:15:58,880
didn't just become kind of white people, you know, Like

2398
02:15:58,920 --> 02:16:02,239
there's Irish American now who are going to be celebrating

2399
02:16:02,319 --> 02:16:06,960
drinking green beer this weekend. But you know, I mean

2400
02:16:07,000 --> 02:16:10,079
it's not there, it's not the core of their identity.

2401
02:16:10,119 --> 02:16:12,800
And in a way that being like a like a

2402
02:16:13,119 --> 02:16:16,520
Jewish American is so important to their identity. And so,

2403
02:16:17,239 --> 02:16:21,279
you know, it imported the sort of southern racial perspective

2404
02:16:21,359 --> 02:16:24,359
into the northern cities where previously there had been like

2405
02:16:24,399 --> 02:16:27,680
an ethnic perspective on how politics works. And you had

2406
02:16:27,720 --> 02:16:31,119
all of these people who you know, lived in the

2407
02:16:31,159 --> 02:16:35,040
neighborhoods where the black people were moving in. And you know,

2408
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:37,000
of course, you know, these are poor black people, and

2409
02:16:37,040 --> 02:16:39,559
so they're moving into neighborhoods that they can afford to

2410
02:16:39,600 --> 02:16:42,360
live in. And so those are typically the neighborhoods that

2411
02:16:42,520 --> 02:16:46,159
immigrants of the previous generation, you know, lived in. A

2412
02:16:46,159 --> 02:16:48,920
lot of them just buying their first house after their parents.

2413
02:16:48,920 --> 02:16:53,120
You know, you're some Italian. Your father was an Italian immigrant,

2414
02:16:53,760 --> 02:16:56,120
worked on the docs his whole life, you know, and

2415
02:16:56,159 --> 02:16:59,399
now you, as his son, you work in like waste

2416
02:16:59,399 --> 02:17:01,920
management this city. And you bought a house, you know,

2417
02:17:02,040 --> 02:17:03,879
your fall you grew up in a tenement building with

2418
02:17:03,920 --> 02:17:06,719
like all the other Italian immigrants. Now you bought your

2419
02:17:06,760 --> 02:17:09,280
own house, and that's what your whole neighborhood is it's

2420
02:17:09,319 --> 02:17:13,280
a bunch of your people, you know, Italian Catholics with

2421
02:17:13,319 --> 02:17:16,079
an Italian Catholic church like in the center of the

2422
02:17:16,120 --> 02:17:18,840
neighborhood that everybody goes to and it's a center of

2423
02:17:18,879 --> 02:17:22,520
community life. And you know, all of this, and then

2424
02:17:22,719 --> 02:17:26,280
all of a sudden, you get this massive influx of

2425
02:17:26,319 --> 02:17:31,680
people from the South who again are just very you know,

2426
02:17:31,719 --> 02:17:35,840
their their habits were It's not just black people. Like again,

2427
02:17:35,879 --> 02:17:39,520
you go back to the Okis, you know out in California,

2428
02:17:39,559 --> 02:17:43,200
everybody saw them as disruptive and they they were. You

2429
02:17:43,280 --> 02:17:46,600
had the big apple Achian migration up into some of

2430
02:17:46,639 --> 02:17:49,760
the Midwestern cities like Detroit in the mid twentieth century,

2431
02:17:49,799 --> 02:17:52,239
and it's the same thing. They were disruptive. You know,

2432
02:17:52,239 --> 02:17:55,639
these are rural Southerners had more of like an honor culture,

2433
02:17:55,840 --> 02:17:58,600
you know, so if you if they you know, you

2434
02:17:58,639 --> 02:18:00,600
insult them, you're more likely to get punched in the

2435
02:18:00,639 --> 02:18:04,000
face than reported to the principle. And the blacks were

2436
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:06,159
like that too, you know, they had that mentality, and

2437
02:18:06,200 --> 02:18:09,319
then they had some racial resentment and animosity built on

2438
02:18:09,360 --> 02:18:11,840
top of that. So you got all these people who

2439
02:18:11,840 --> 02:18:15,120
lived in these neighborhoods who you know, they all scattered,

2440
02:18:15,159 --> 02:18:18,079
they all moved out to the suburbs which were being

2441
02:18:18,079 --> 02:18:20,840
thrown up after the war. And now you know, you

2442
02:18:20,840 --> 02:18:22,760
don't live in a parish community you're in you're a

2443
02:18:22,760 --> 02:18:26,399
second generation Italian and over here is like a wasp

2444
02:18:26,479 --> 02:18:29,680
neighbor and over there is you know, just your whole

2445
02:18:29,680 --> 02:18:32,000
neighborhood's mixed, and your kids go to a public school

2446
02:18:32,040 --> 02:18:35,879
that's not primarily anything, and all of those people, the

2447
02:18:35,920 --> 02:18:40,200
exception of Jews, you know, kind of stopped being Irish

2448
02:18:40,239 --> 02:18:43,079
or Italian or anything like that and became white people.

2449
02:18:44,079 --> 02:18:47,959
And you know, that's really kind of the shape that

2450
02:18:48,040 --> 02:18:51,399
politics has kept ever since then, where you know, now

2451
02:18:51,399 --> 02:18:55,360
there's more more more people other than blacks who are

2452
02:18:55,479 --> 02:18:57,639
non white people in the country, whereas back then it

2453
02:18:57,719 --> 02:18:59,879
was like pretty much ninety percent to ten percent of

2454
02:19:00,159 --> 02:19:04,440
smattering of others. And so you have like the you know,

2455
02:19:04,520 --> 02:19:07,000
the very phrase people of color. I mean, that's something

2456
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:10,159
that divides the world into two halves. You got white

2457
02:19:10,159 --> 02:19:14,840
people and you got everybody else. And you know, again

2458
02:19:14,879 --> 02:19:17,399
it's it's it's a really interesting thing to read about.

2459
02:19:17,399 --> 02:19:21,680
How you know, the the we talk about like segregation

2460
02:19:21,799 --> 02:19:23,879
in the northern cities, and we think, like of racial

2461
02:19:23,879 --> 02:19:28,440
segregation in the northern cities, that this was like just

2462
02:19:28,520 --> 02:19:32,680
this profound evil that had to be eradicated and changed.

2463
02:19:32,920 --> 02:19:34,799
The people who lived in those cities. The way they

2464
02:19:34,799 --> 02:19:37,239
sawt is, the city's always been segregated. You know, the

2465
02:19:37,239 --> 02:19:39,360
Italians live over the air, the Irish live over the air,

2466
02:19:39,399 --> 02:19:42,479
the Jews live over there in between, you know, there's

2467
02:19:42,840 --> 02:19:45,280
mixed neighborhoods and so forth. But like that's how it

2468
02:19:45,360 --> 02:19:50,760
has always worked. And you know, so they they just

2469
02:19:50,760 --> 02:19:54,360
didn't under they didn't understand like why where this push

2470
02:19:54,559 --> 02:19:57,319
was coming from, you know, to break up their neighborhoods

2471
02:19:57,360 --> 02:20:00,680
like this, and uh yeah, I mean, and it's you know,

2472
02:20:00,719 --> 02:20:06,280
the consequences of the Great Migration, the problems that resulted

2473
02:20:06,280 --> 02:20:09,360
from it, you know, et cetera, like have pretty pretty

2474
02:20:09,440 --> 02:20:14,040
much defined domestic politics in the US since the early

2475
02:20:14,079 --> 02:20:16,799
twentieth century, so like since the First World War. I mean,

2476
02:20:17,239 --> 02:20:21,120
just there's been other issues, obviously, but the overriding issue

2477
02:20:21,479 --> 02:20:26,639
in the country domestically speaking, has been the racial question

2478
02:20:26,799 --> 02:20:28,520
ever since then. And it's you know, and that's a

2479
02:20:28,559 --> 02:20:33,479
result of like people, you know, people have this idea

2480
02:20:33,520 --> 02:20:36,559
that because like you know, New York City or something

2481
02:20:36,680 --> 02:20:40,559
was run by by white people that they just didn't

2482
02:20:40,559 --> 02:20:42,760
care about the black people that were in those cities,

2483
02:20:42,760 --> 02:20:45,399
and that's you know, why they didn't get social services

2484
02:20:45,440 --> 02:20:47,719
or why their schools were bad or whatever. That is

2485
02:20:47,799 --> 02:20:50,120
just not true at least in most of the big cities.

2486
02:20:50,159 --> 02:20:53,520
I mean, when you look at the amount of attention

2487
02:20:53,719 --> 02:20:56,600
and in local politics that was spent on how do

2488
02:20:56,639 --> 02:20:59,079
we fix this, the amount of money that was spent,

2489
02:20:59,399 --> 02:21:03,799
you could really get like the Great Society Programs in

2490
02:21:03,920 --> 02:21:06,719
sixty five was really like an attempt. It was like

2491
02:21:06,760 --> 02:21:09,600
it was almost a bailout of the cities by the

2492
02:21:09,639 --> 02:21:11,600
federal government. They were like, we need to take some

2493
02:21:11,680 --> 02:21:14,520
of the burden and cost that this is imposing on

2494
02:21:14,600 --> 02:21:17,319
these cities up to the federal level, because you know,

2495
02:21:17,360 --> 02:21:20,479
we're better equipped to handle it. And it's really been

2496
02:21:20,520 --> 02:21:23,600
the case for you know, one hundred years, is this,

2497
02:21:23,840 --> 02:21:26,000
you know, is what to do about it? How to

2498
02:21:26,040 --> 02:21:28,840
fix it? And we've gone through different permutations, right where

2499
02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:32,760
you go through the nineteen sixties and you know, we

2500
02:21:32,799 --> 02:21:35,600
can maybe talk about this next but you know, by

2501
02:21:35,639 --> 02:21:36,920
you get but by the time you get up to

2502
02:21:36,959 --> 02:21:40,760
the late sixties, you have a split between the Jewish

2503
02:21:40,840 --> 02:21:42,399
and Black activist communities.

2504
02:21:43,239 --> 02:21:45,040
Speaker 1: First, that's exactly where I wanted to go.

2505
02:21:45,120 --> 02:21:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, So for several reasons, you know, partly

2506
02:21:47,639 --> 02:21:54,239
because you know, there were real resentments that resulted from

2507
02:21:54,399 --> 02:21:55,760
you know, you got to you just have to put

2508
02:21:55,799 --> 02:21:57,600
yourself like you go to act like the Freedom Summer,

2509
02:21:57,600 --> 02:21:59,879
and you read about you read the criticisms of some

2510
02:22:00,040 --> 02:22:02,360
and like Stokely Carmichael, you have all these Jewish students

2511
02:22:02,360 --> 02:22:05,840
who come down from the University of Wisconsin and you know,

2512
02:22:05,959 --> 02:22:09,360
Harvard and Columbia and everything. Graduate students, you know, taking

2513
02:22:09,399 --> 02:22:11,520
their summers off to go work in the Freedom Summer

2514
02:22:11,879 --> 02:22:14,399
and they go down there and for every one of them,

2515
02:22:14,440 --> 02:22:17,399
you know, there's thirty black activists who are down there

2516
02:22:17,399 --> 02:22:19,280
in the South community members who were part of this

2517
02:22:19,479 --> 02:22:22,239
part of this thing. And they come down a lot

2518
02:22:22,239 --> 02:22:25,239
of these people, you know, they're illiterate or they're certainly

2519
02:22:25,280 --> 02:22:27,559
not educated, you know at all. They don't have any

2520
02:22:27,600 --> 02:22:32,600
experience running movements or organizations like these, you know, university

2521
02:22:32,639 --> 02:22:35,319
activists do. And they would come in and you know,

2522
02:22:35,399 --> 02:22:38,719
like Stokely Carmichael's the big one who he you know,

2523
02:22:38,760 --> 02:22:42,520
he says these people are just pushy, they're condescending, they're

2524
02:22:42,559 --> 02:22:45,520
coming in like trying to I mean, like the SNICK

2525
02:22:45,799 --> 02:22:48,479
Student Non Violent Coordinating Committe, which is the biggest black

2526
02:22:48,520 --> 02:22:54,440
youth movement in the country back then. You know, they

2527
02:22:54,479 --> 02:22:58,079
when they were asking for white students to come down

2528
02:22:58,120 --> 02:23:02,319
and participate, they he didn't want any more than one

2529
02:23:02,399 --> 02:23:06,840
hundred to come down, and they screened the ones that

2530
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:10,239
came in for what SNICK called They didn't want anybody

2531
02:23:10,280 --> 02:23:13,159
with a John Brown complex. You know, somebody who was

2532
02:23:13,200 --> 02:23:16,120
coming in to save the Southern Negro They didn't want that.

2533
02:23:16,920 --> 02:23:19,959
And you know, word kind of spread what was happening,

2534
02:23:20,000 --> 02:23:22,200
and they got way more than one hundred people, and

2535
02:23:23,120 --> 02:23:25,120
a lot of them had the John Brown complex, and

2536
02:23:25,120 --> 02:23:27,479
that really did kind of happen. It created that resentment

2537
02:23:28,399 --> 02:23:31,479
and as you start to get into the mid sixties, well,

2538
02:23:31,520 --> 02:23:34,399
I think in sixty seven is when The Crisis of

2539
02:23:34,440 --> 02:23:37,840
the Negro Intellectual was published. In that book, I mean,

2540
02:23:37,840 --> 02:23:41,280
he gets pretty direct about how you know, he talks

2541
02:23:41,319 --> 02:23:44,600
about how there's too much Jewish involvement in our movements

2542
02:23:45,079 --> 02:23:47,680
and we're never going to get anywhere until black people

2543
02:23:47,760 --> 02:23:50,680
run the black rights movements. And so there's that and

2544
02:23:50,680 --> 02:23:52,920
then also in nineteen sixty seven, that's when the Sixth

2545
02:23:53,000 --> 02:23:57,959
Day War happened and the global left kind of you know,

2546
02:23:58,000 --> 02:24:04,159
on Moss turned on Israel, and you know, the by

2547
02:24:04,159 --> 02:24:09,799
that point, the the sort of integrationist Martin Luther King

2548
02:24:10,879 --> 02:24:14,680
angle on the black rights movement had really surrendered the

2549
02:24:14,719 --> 02:24:18,159
field to the black power movement that very much identified

2550
02:24:18,159 --> 02:24:21,559
with the Third World. You know, they the rhetoric back

2551
02:24:21,600 --> 02:24:24,399
then was, you know, the French or attacking the Arabs

2552
02:24:24,399 --> 02:24:29,000
in Algeria, were attacking the Vietnamese over in Vietnam, and

2553
02:24:29,879 --> 02:24:32,159
you know right here in America, like we're part of

2554
02:24:32,239 --> 02:24:34,920
all that. When they identified with the Vietnamese, the Algerians

2555
02:24:34,959 --> 02:24:36,760
and so forth as part of the Third World, that

2556
02:24:36,840 --> 02:24:41,239
they were this captive population in America, right And which

2557
02:24:41,319 --> 02:24:44,440
was you know, which was not the approach of the

2558
02:24:44,680 --> 02:24:47,440
of like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference guys. I mean,

2559
02:24:47,479 --> 02:24:49,920
they were very American if they were anything, you know,

2560
02:24:51,959 --> 02:24:54,639
but you know, it's again, it's another thing that's understandable.

2561
02:24:54,680 --> 02:24:56,879
You go, you know, if you're if you were a

2562
02:24:56,920 --> 02:25:00,200
black person in America from the end of the Civil

2563
02:25:00,200 --> 02:25:03,360
War on up until you know, around the fifties or sixties,

2564
02:25:03,639 --> 02:25:08,120
in the twentieth century. You know, your history is not

2565
02:25:08,399 --> 02:25:12,760
really something to write home about. You know, it's something

2566
02:25:12,799 --> 02:25:17,280
that you've been subjugated, You've been second class citizens, You've

2567
02:25:17,319 --> 02:25:20,239
been discriminated against. And you know, now even where you're

2568
02:25:20,280 --> 02:25:22,959
not discriminated against, you're the poorest people in the city.

2569
02:25:23,079 --> 02:25:26,680
And like it's just and so when and then even

2570
02:25:26,719 --> 02:25:29,159
back before slavery, like nobody had ever even heard of

2571
02:25:29,200 --> 02:25:32,440
like an independent black African country. You know, they've been

2572
02:25:32,440 --> 02:25:35,479
colonized for hundreds and hundreds of years, right, and so

2573
02:25:35,559 --> 02:25:38,920
when you started to get these post colonial nationalist movements

2574
02:25:38,920 --> 02:25:44,600
in Africa, you know, uh, leaders like Patrice Lamumba, you know,

2575
02:25:44,639 --> 02:25:47,520
all these were they were idolized in the black community,

2576
02:25:47,600 --> 02:25:50,719
especially in Harlem. And you can understand why. I mean,

2577
02:25:50,719 --> 02:25:52,639
it's like it's you know, you see it today when

2578
02:25:52,680 --> 02:25:55,399
the Black Panther movie comes out, right, that will kind

2579
02:25:55,440 --> 02:25:57,440
of stuff and people laugh at it. I'm laughing a

2580
02:25:57,440 --> 02:25:59,799
little bit now, but I sympathize with it. You know,

2581
02:26:00,040 --> 02:26:05,479
these are a people who you know, Tyrone Jackson is

2582
02:26:05,520 --> 02:26:08,680
not an African name. You know, Tyrone is a county

2583
02:26:08,719 --> 02:26:12,479
in Ireland, Jackson, you know, and so these people lost everything,

2584
02:26:12,479 --> 02:26:15,600
they lost their identity, they lost their religion, they lost

2585
02:26:16,159 --> 02:26:18,440
you know, everything that kind of tied them together, and

2586
02:26:18,520 --> 02:26:21,799
so they're trying to put something back together. I mean,

2587
02:26:21,799 --> 02:26:24,040
I think you see this white people a lot these days,

2588
02:26:24,040 --> 02:26:27,239
because white people have been so deracinated and lost their

2589
02:26:27,280 --> 02:26:31,520
own any sense of their own history or heritage that

2590
02:26:31,600 --> 02:26:33,399
you see people going. I mean, you know, whether it's

2591
02:26:33,440 --> 02:26:36,879
a neo pagan movement or just there, there's a million

2592
02:26:36,879 --> 02:26:39,680
different varieties, and I sympathize with all of them, including

2593
02:26:39,799 --> 02:26:43,120
you know, Wakanda forever, because people need an identity, you know.

2594
02:26:44,159 --> 02:26:48,959
And yeah, so you know, when anyway I was talking

2595
02:26:48,959 --> 02:26:51,639
about Israel Six Day War happens, the global left turns

2596
02:26:51,639 --> 02:26:55,879
on Israel and they start to be viewed as you know,

2597
02:26:55,959 --> 02:26:59,760
not this ragtag state, like refugee state, you know, of

2598
02:26:59,760 --> 02:27:02,159
these people who've been persecuted and carved out a homeland

2599
02:27:02,159 --> 02:27:04,799
for themselves. The global left really started to look at

2600
02:27:04,840 --> 02:27:11,280
them as you know, the front line of white imperialism

2601
02:27:11,479 --> 02:27:16,319
in the colored countries in the global South. And you know,

2602
02:27:16,600 --> 02:27:18,760
by that point again, you know, the third world is

2603
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:21,760
kind of black militant view of things had really taken

2604
02:27:21,799 --> 02:27:24,360
over in America, and so they went along with that,

2605
02:27:24,639 --> 02:27:27,399
you know, and they absorbed that anti Zionism and that

2606
02:27:27,559 --> 02:27:30,959
really was like the big break because back then, even

2607
02:27:31,079 --> 02:27:33,680
like liberal Jews like today you have, you know now

2608
02:27:33,680 --> 02:27:37,079
that Lekud has been in power for basically forty years straight.

2609
02:27:37,680 --> 02:27:41,520
You know, liberal Jews in America are kind of, at

2610
02:27:41,600 --> 02:27:43,680
least when they're not in a moment of crisis, are

2611
02:27:43,760 --> 02:27:47,079
kind of like touch and go about their relationship with Israel, right,

2612
02:27:47,479 --> 02:27:49,639
But back then that wasn't the case. You know, other

2613
02:27:49,719 --> 02:27:52,159
than some extreme far left Jews like the ones who

2614
02:27:52,280 --> 02:27:55,360
you know made up the Weatherman Crew and everything, which

2615
02:27:55,399 --> 02:28:00,159
were very small in number, all Jews in America were

2616
02:28:00,159 --> 02:28:03,479
affectionate toward toward Israel, and you know, for obvious reasons.

2617
02:28:03,520 --> 02:28:07,360
And so when black people started turning very you know,

2618
02:28:08,040 --> 02:28:11,040
very violently against Israel, that was a huge break. And

2619
02:28:11,040 --> 02:28:14,680
that happened, you know, in sixty seven. That's when SNICK

2620
02:28:14,920 --> 02:28:19,559
expelled all of its white members. And at that point

2621
02:28:19,680 --> 02:28:22,399
those white members were still seventy or eighty percent Jews,

2622
02:28:22,440 --> 02:28:25,680
and they were really expelling their Jewish members, and you know,

2623
02:28:25,719 --> 02:28:28,399
there was actually like at the SNICK conference in sixty seven,

2624
02:28:28,440 --> 02:28:32,239
there was some of the Panthers who were there insisted

2625
02:28:32,239 --> 02:28:35,639
on a vote that the organization take, you know, a

2626
02:28:35,680 --> 02:28:39,159
negative position towards Zionism and Israel. And of course the

2627
02:28:39,159 --> 02:28:42,159
white students protested and stuff, and they expelled them, they

2628
02:28:42,200 --> 02:28:44,719
just kicked them out, and so that starts to happen.

2629
02:28:44,760 --> 02:28:47,719
And I tend to think that, and I may be

2630
02:28:47,840 --> 02:28:50,159
over I may be kind of imposing my own view

2631
02:28:50,200 --> 02:28:51,920
on this. But you know, by the time you get

2632
02:28:51,959 --> 02:28:55,559
you get up to sixty eight and Nixon is elected,

2633
02:28:56,719 --> 02:29:00,680
and you know, he turns this again, and this question

2634
02:29:00,719 --> 02:29:02,799
that really has been the dominant domestic question of the

2635
02:29:02,879 --> 02:29:08,559
last hundred years in America, the racial question. He I said,

2636
02:29:08,559 --> 02:29:11,120
we go through permutations and like variations of how it works.

2637
02:29:11,159 --> 02:29:13,000
We had been in like a period of like how

2638
02:29:13,000 --> 02:29:15,719
do we solve this in a way that brings these

2639
02:29:15,760 --> 02:29:18,600
people into the fold and helps solve all these problems.

2640
02:29:19,000 --> 02:29:21,159
Nixon came in and by that point people were so

2641
02:29:21,319 --> 02:29:26,360
fed up with the riots, with the crime, with you know,

2642
02:29:26,520 --> 02:29:30,440
just everything that it for From that period like on,

2643
02:29:30,760 --> 02:29:33,159
like Nixon approached it as this is primarily a law

2644
02:29:33,200 --> 02:29:36,319
enforcement problem. This isn't a problem for social workers, this

2645
02:29:36,360 --> 02:29:39,559
isn't a problem for you know, psychology. This is this

2646
02:29:39,600 --> 02:29:41,399
is a law enforcement problem, and that's what we're going

2647
02:29:41,479 --> 02:29:44,040
to focus on. So all the Great Society stuff, everything

2648
02:29:44,079 --> 02:29:47,159
that all went away. The cities, of course, had become

2649
02:29:47,280 --> 02:29:50,079
dependent on that federal money from the Great Society by

2650
02:29:50,079 --> 02:29:53,959
that point, and all the cities just you know, they

2651
02:29:54,200 --> 02:29:56,079
were already in bad shape. But you know, you get

2652
02:29:56,120 --> 02:29:59,040
up to the late sixties and they just absolutely fall apart,

2653
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:04,159
and you see this steady rise in crime through the seventies,

2654
02:30:04,319 --> 02:30:07,079
eighties and up into the early nineties that I think,

2655
02:30:07,159 --> 02:30:10,959
you know, people today, like younger people today, like I

2656
02:30:11,000 --> 02:30:13,520
lived in South LA in nineteen ninety two. I wasn't

2657
02:30:13,559 --> 02:30:15,600
in a riot zone or anything, but I was close enough,

2658
02:30:15,639 --> 02:30:18,280
and I went to school with kids who were. And

2659
02:30:18,440 --> 02:30:20,760
you know, people don't realize that. For example, like the

2660
02:30:20,920 --> 02:30:24,600
in the three years before the La riots, three years

2661
02:30:25,399 --> 02:30:28,360
there were over sixty five hundred drive by shootings in

2662
02:30:28,399 --> 02:30:31,680
Los Angeles County. They didn't all result in deaths or anything,

2663
02:30:31,719 --> 02:30:36,040
but that's like five a day, okay. And when you

2664
02:30:36,079 --> 02:30:39,239
think about the fact that like ninety percent of LA

2665
02:30:39,399 --> 02:30:41,840
had zero drive by shootings, you know, these are all

2666
02:30:41,879 --> 02:30:45,879
taking place in a very tightly concentrated area that is

2667
02:30:46,000 --> 02:30:49,840
as dangerous as you know, the worst part of El

2668
02:30:49,920 --> 02:30:53,479
Salvador before you know, the current president took over, I guess,

2669
02:30:54,040 --> 02:30:56,200
and so you know, people were looking at that and

2670
02:30:56,239 --> 02:30:58,879
they just sort of, you know, the white people who

2671
02:30:58,920 --> 02:31:01,639
had moved out to the suburbs to get away from

2672
02:31:01,639 --> 02:31:04,239
all this, you know, they just didn't want to hear

2673
02:31:04,280 --> 02:31:05,959
about it. They just were like, keep it over there,

2674
02:31:06,079 --> 02:31:08,319
I don't care, and unless it starts to spill out,

2675
02:31:08,520 --> 02:31:11,719
like just have the police deal with it. And it

2676
02:31:11,760 --> 02:31:13,200
gets to the point where again you get up to

2677
02:31:13,280 --> 02:31:17,600
nineteen ninety one, nineteen eighty nine, ninety ninety one, and

2678
02:31:17,639 --> 02:31:20,520
then culminating with the La riots, you know, you have

2679
02:31:22,079 --> 02:31:24,840
like I think New York City today, or I'll use

2680
02:31:24,840 --> 02:31:27,280
Los Angeles because I know that one. Los Angeles had

2681
02:31:27,280 --> 02:31:30,719
like three hundred and fifty murders last year. It had

2682
02:31:30,799 --> 02:31:34,719
like eighteen hundred murders in nineteen ninety one. I mean,

2683
02:31:35,200 --> 02:31:39,760
insane levels of crime and like and it was you know,

2684
02:31:40,799 --> 02:31:42,799
if you look at like the crime statistics, I know

2685
02:31:42,840 --> 02:31:46,079
people always talk about that. You know, you can look

2686
02:31:46,079 --> 02:31:48,879
at it and say, well, yeah, like it's only half

2687
02:31:48,959 --> 02:31:52,079
I mean, it's certainly disproportionate to the population. Like the

2688
02:31:52,159 --> 02:31:56,440
number of murders committed by blacks. Half is a lot

2689
02:31:56,479 --> 02:31:58,959
when you're only fourteen percent of the population or whatever

2690
02:31:59,000 --> 02:32:03,680
it is. But you know, it's it's a very different

2691
02:32:03,719 --> 02:32:05,840
problem than the other half, which are like white or

2692
02:32:05,879 --> 02:32:08,440
Latino murders or something, because you know, like the white

2693
02:32:08,520 --> 02:32:11,000
murders in the country. It's like, all right, this guy

2694
02:32:11,040 --> 02:32:13,600
over in Great Falls, Montana found out his wife was

2695
02:32:13,680 --> 02:32:15,479
cheating on him with this guy and he killed him.

2696
02:32:15,879 --> 02:32:19,200
And then over here in like, you know, northern California,

2697
02:32:19,280 --> 02:32:20,959
there was this white guy who got into a fight

2698
02:32:21,000 --> 02:32:22,280
at a bar and killed the guy.

2699
02:32:22,360 --> 02:32:22,719
Speaker 1: Whatever.

2700
02:32:23,479 --> 02:32:27,879
Speaker 2: This distributed thing whereas you know, and it can't be

2701
02:32:27,920 --> 02:32:31,799
addressed or solved with the same tools that you need

2702
02:32:31,879 --> 02:32:36,360
when you have this very tight concentration of just total chaos,

2703
02:32:36,920 --> 02:32:38,920
which is what the black neighborhoods had become by the

2704
02:32:38,920 --> 02:32:42,799
early nineties, and you get to like, you know, ninety two,

2705
02:32:43,000 --> 02:32:45,639
like the La riots really were like a kind of

2706
02:32:45,680 --> 02:32:48,120
a last straw kind of moment where people had just

2707
02:32:48,200 --> 02:32:50,680
had enough. And then when you get up to the

2708
02:32:50,719 --> 02:32:53,280
second kind of last straw following right on that, on

2709
02:32:53,360 --> 02:32:56,079
the heels of that was I think people don't today

2710
02:32:56,120 --> 02:32:59,239
don't recognize how important this was that, you know, the

2711
02:32:59,319 --> 02:33:03,360
whole country's attention was glued to the oj Simpson trial

2712
02:33:03,360 --> 02:33:06,360
while that was going on. Everybody was watching that. And

2713
02:33:06,399 --> 02:33:09,719
when it became this situation where you had this guy

2714
02:33:09,719 --> 02:33:14,239
who obviously killed these people, who gets off because you know,

2715
02:33:15,120 --> 02:33:18,239
one of the investigators may have made a comment or

2716
02:33:18,280 --> 02:33:22,040
something at some point in the past unrelated to him

2717
02:33:22,200 --> 02:33:25,840
when that happened. And then after the trial when he

2718
02:33:25,840 --> 02:33:27,920
gets acquitted and you have the news cameras out in

2719
02:33:27,920 --> 02:33:30,719
front of the courthouse and you have just crowds of

2720
02:33:30,719 --> 02:33:33,879
black people out there cheering, we won, We won. I

2721
02:33:33,920 --> 02:33:36,120
really think that was like a major breaking point where

2722
02:33:36,120 --> 02:33:37,959
people were like, you know what, we're We're not dealing

2723
02:33:37,959 --> 02:33:40,440
with this anymore. And you saw a huge turn, you know.

2724
02:33:40,799 --> 02:33:42,120
I mean, I think if you go back to like

2725
02:33:42,200 --> 02:33:44,280
nineteen eighty five, there was something like four hundred and

2726
02:33:44,280 --> 02:33:49,760
fifty thousand people incarcerated in the United States, and it's

2727
02:33:49,799 --> 02:33:51,920
like two million now. And when you count like the

2728
02:33:51,920 --> 02:33:54,200
people who were on probation, in parole and in some

2729
02:33:54,440 --> 02:33:58,200
level of the criminal justice system, I mean, you know,

2730
02:33:58,360 --> 02:34:01,200
it's a uh. I mean, crime has gone down for

2731
02:34:01,239 --> 02:34:04,520
a reason, and it's gone down because we you know,

2732
02:34:04,559 --> 02:34:06,959
and this might be an ugly thing to say, but

2733
02:34:07,079 --> 02:34:11,600
I mean it went down because we you know, put

2734
02:34:11,920 --> 02:34:15,159
a good percentage of the worst people in the black

2735
02:34:15,239 --> 02:34:18,719
underclass in prison or in some level of the criminal

2736
02:34:18,840 --> 02:34:21,920
justice system. I mean, that's what happened. And it's unfortunate,

2737
02:34:21,959 --> 02:34:24,559
I guess, because there's a lot of downstream effects that

2738
02:34:25,079 --> 02:34:27,159
you know, that that causes that are not good. But

2739
02:34:27,639 --> 02:34:29,920
you know, this was a response to a crisis. You know, again,

2740
02:34:29,920 --> 02:34:32,120
you had five drive by shootings a day in la

2741
02:34:32,239 --> 02:34:35,520
over the three years before the ninety two riots, and

2742
02:34:37,079 --> 02:34:38,920
it kind of stayed that way, like all the way

2743
02:34:39,000 --> 02:34:42,920
up until I guess, like Trayvon, you know, or maybe Ferguson,

2744
02:34:42,959 --> 02:34:45,399
when everything started to change again and you start to

2745
02:34:45,399 --> 02:34:50,319
get this nineteen sixties kind of version of how these

2746
02:34:50,319 --> 02:34:55,520
things are approached. And you know, I hope that we

2747
02:34:55,559 --> 02:34:57,639
don't have to go through the same process they went

2748
02:34:57,680 --> 02:35:01,120
through in the sixties, which is that everything just falls

2749
02:35:01,159 --> 02:35:04,600
apart for twenty or twenty five years and gets worse

2750
02:35:04,639 --> 02:35:07,920
and worse, and the city has become unlivable until finally, people,

2751
02:35:08,559 --> 02:35:11,319
you know, decide to throw out John Lindsay and replace

2752
02:35:11,360 --> 02:35:17,959
him with Ed Koch or Juliani or something. But you know, yeah,

2753
02:35:18,000 --> 02:35:19,879
it's gonna be it's gonna be interesting to see how

2754
02:35:19,920 --> 02:35:20,600
that does develop.

2755
02:35:20,639 --> 02:35:23,959
Speaker 1: Actually, well, I think yeah, the one thing I'm very

2756
02:35:23,959 --> 02:35:30,079
interested in seeing going forward is just how Black and Jewish,

2757
02:35:30,879 --> 02:35:34,879
how they relate to one another. Still. I mean green Blat,

2758
02:35:34,959 --> 02:35:39,159
Jonathan green Blatt, the president of the ADEL. I don't

2759
02:35:39,280 --> 02:35:43,360
say this because I don't like I say this because

2760
02:35:43,360 --> 02:35:47,120
it's just obvious. He's not the smartest person who ever

2761
02:35:48,040 --> 02:35:52,319
has headed the ADL. His tweets are just insane. I mean,

2762
02:35:52,360 --> 02:35:57,239
the guy is he's pandering to the black community. I've

2763
02:35:57,239 --> 02:36:00,760
seen many many we're in this together, we're in the

2764
02:36:00,840 --> 02:36:05,559
same boat. And then you just see one comment after another.

2765
02:36:05,959 --> 02:36:09,360
Who owned those boats? Talking about the slave ships? Who

2766
02:36:09,399 --> 02:36:11,879
owned those boats? Who owned those boats? Why were the

2767
02:36:11,920 --> 02:36:15,680
slave markets closed on Saturday? And it's like, well, I mean,

2768
02:36:16,520 --> 02:36:21,840
if a billionaire black man is asking questions, and then

2769
02:36:21,840 --> 02:36:25,079
you have Dave Chappelle go on you know, Saturday Alive

2770
02:36:25,120 --> 02:36:30,040
and say there's two words you can't say together, the well,

2771
02:36:30,120 --> 02:36:34,479
I mean, it's gonna it's interesting. It's because if those

2772
02:36:34,520 --> 02:36:38,399
two groups start going to war with one another again,

2773
02:36:38,760 --> 02:36:41,079
and of course this is only on social media now,

2774
02:36:41,079 --> 02:36:44,520
which is probably a good thing because it's not in

2775
02:36:44,559 --> 02:36:50,159
the streets yet, but it's the future is very is

2776
02:36:50,200 --> 02:36:52,239
going to be very interesting when it comes to those

2777
02:36:52,239 --> 02:36:52,959
two groups.

2778
02:36:53,280 --> 02:36:56,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, because because one of those is going to say

2779
02:36:56,799 --> 02:36:59,760
that back sorry, in the sixties of one of the

2780
02:36:59,799 --> 02:37:01,399
things I was just going to say, and I'll be

2781
02:37:01,479 --> 02:37:04,920
quick with this one, is that I suspect that the

2782
02:37:05,040 --> 02:37:08,120
loss of Jewish support for the black movement around sixty

2783
02:37:08,120 --> 02:37:13,280
seven sixty eight is like that was a critical part

2784
02:37:13,399 --> 02:37:16,639
of their political support that they really needed to keep

2785
02:37:16,760 --> 02:37:19,200
like a Nixon from going ham on them and stuff.

2786
02:37:19,200 --> 02:37:21,239
And so that's one of the things that I could

2787
02:37:21,239 --> 02:37:23,879
see happening. If there is like a big break, then

2788
02:37:23,920 --> 02:37:26,440
we could maybe go back, you know, in a direction

2789
02:37:26,639 --> 02:37:29,920
of addressing this as a law enforcement problem and kind

2790
02:37:29,920 --> 02:37:33,239
of like more of a nineteen nineties version of addressing

2791
02:37:33,639 --> 02:37:36,280
black crime in the cities and stuff, because they you know,

2792
02:37:36,360 --> 02:37:41,799
the pretty much unanimous support of politically active Jews for

2793
02:37:41,959 --> 02:37:44,120
the black cause. I mean, it's I think that's a

2794
02:37:44,200 --> 02:37:46,639
critical element of the support they need to keep the

2795
02:37:46,680 --> 02:37:50,680
rest of the society from you know, fixing the problem

2796
02:37:50,719 --> 02:37:51,600
in a very different way.

2797
02:37:52,239 --> 02:37:56,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, correct, And if they lose that support now, and

2798
02:37:56,799 --> 02:38:01,920
you know, with it seems wherever any major institution, you

2799
02:38:01,959 --> 02:38:06,959
look at, any major industry, there are Jews at the

2800
02:38:07,000 --> 02:38:10,479
top of it. That money. If that money and that

2801
02:38:10,559 --> 02:38:15,760
support stops going into the Black community, then we are well,

2802
02:38:15,799 --> 02:38:18,000
I guess said. The only word I can use is interesting,

2803
02:38:18,079 --> 02:38:21,120
because it's very hard at this point to try to

2804
02:38:21,159 --> 02:38:25,200
figure out exactly how that would play out, considering so

2805
02:38:25,399 --> 02:38:28,639
much of our lives are and so much debate is

2806
02:38:28,760 --> 02:38:33,399
online now instead of at city hall, on the steps

2807
02:38:33,399 --> 02:38:36,600
of city hall, or in the streets in a march.

2808
02:38:37,920 --> 02:38:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, yeah, you know, I guess The last thing

2809
02:38:43,239 --> 02:38:45,600
I'll say is I think that, like, you know, black

2810
02:38:45,600 --> 02:38:48,159
people in America right now are really kind of on

2811
02:38:48,200 --> 02:38:51,639
the edge of a precipice. I think in a way

2812
02:38:51,719 --> 02:38:55,440
that they haven't been you know, really ever, just because

2813
02:38:56,840 --> 02:39:00,280
you know, the changing demographics of this country, you know,

2814
02:39:01,440 --> 02:39:04,200
due to immigration. I mean, there's a lot of people

2815
02:39:04,280 --> 02:39:06,959
and pretty soon enough, probably a majority of people in

2816
02:39:07,000 --> 02:39:09,360
this country, certainly a majority of people in the cities

2817
02:39:10,120 --> 02:39:13,000
who don't care about slavery, they don't care about Jim Crow,

2818
02:39:13,040 --> 02:39:15,520
they don't identify any of that with themselves. You see

2819
02:39:15,520 --> 02:39:18,319
it in Los Angeles specifically, where you know, you have

2820
02:39:18,360 --> 02:39:20,840
black what used to be black neighborhoods, like back in

2821
02:39:20,879 --> 02:39:23,079
the early nineties, Compton and stuff, those are all Latino

2822
02:39:23,120 --> 02:39:26,559
neighborhoods now. And that transition was not a peaceful one.

2823
02:39:26,639 --> 02:39:30,520
The Latino gangs drove those people out. They firebombed apartment buildings,

2824
02:39:30,559 --> 02:39:32,799
they were just random murders of black people trying to

2825
02:39:32,879 --> 02:39:36,559
drive them out. And you know, the black gangs and

2826
02:39:36,639 --> 02:39:39,280
the black community in general doesn't have the numbers or

2827
02:39:39,319 --> 02:39:41,920
the organization that the Latinos do, and so they got

2828
02:39:42,399 --> 02:39:45,600
you know, when all of the Latino on black violence

2829
02:39:45,600 --> 02:39:48,760
started to subside around like the early to mid two thousands,

2830
02:39:49,280 --> 02:39:51,719
people looked at that as like they celebrated as a victory,

2831
02:39:51,719 --> 02:39:53,920
but it was really just because that job of cleansing

2832
02:39:53,959 --> 02:39:56,040
had been accomplished by that point, you know, and so

2833
02:39:56,120 --> 02:39:59,319
it died down. There's you know, you have situations where

2834
02:40:00,360 --> 02:40:05,479
these things would be going on and Latino local politicians

2835
02:40:05,479 --> 02:40:08,200
in LA would be providing cover for these Latino gangs

2836
02:40:08,200 --> 02:40:10,799
that were driving these people out. They were you know,

2837
02:40:10,959 --> 02:40:13,879
there was a situation in LA where there was this hospital.

2838
02:40:14,000 --> 02:40:17,280
Actually it's a reverse situation of like the thing that

2839
02:40:17,479 --> 02:40:20,040
you know, people were complaining about in the sixties Black

2840
02:40:20,079 --> 02:40:23,000
people were coplaying about in the sixties, which is, you

2841
02:40:23,040 --> 02:40:25,200
had a neighborhood that used to be black. There was

2842
02:40:25,239 --> 02:40:28,120
a hospital there, and most of the employees there were

2843
02:40:28,159 --> 02:40:32,000
black because they were from the community. Over a pretty

2844
02:40:32,000 --> 02:40:36,760
short period of time, that neighborhood became predominantly Latino. Still

2845
02:40:36,760 --> 02:40:39,239
a bunch of black people working at the at the hospital,

2846
02:40:39,440 --> 02:40:43,920
and the Latinos there. The Latino community successfully used affirmative

2847
02:40:43,920 --> 02:40:46,840
action laws to say there shouldn't there, there needs to be

2848
02:40:46,840 --> 02:40:48,719
more Latinos here, and so they used it to drive

2849
02:40:48,840 --> 02:40:52,879
black people out of these good jobs. And so, you know,

2850
02:40:53,040 --> 02:40:56,520
I mean, for all the problems that you know, black

2851
02:40:56,520 --> 02:40:58,479
people have had to face over the over the over

2852
02:40:58,479 --> 02:41:00,799
the years in America, when you got up to the

2853
02:41:00,879 --> 02:41:03,719
nineteen sixties, for all the trouble and all the problems,

2854
02:41:04,239 --> 02:41:07,719
you know, white America as a whole, you know, had

2855
02:41:07,799 --> 02:41:09,760
kind of come around to the idea that like, Okay,

2856
02:41:09,799 --> 02:41:12,000
there needs to be some kind of a resolution of this,

2857
02:41:12,200 --> 02:41:15,840
Like you know, these people have been enslaved, they have

2858
02:41:15,959 --> 02:41:20,239
been second class citizens, and you know, we got to

2859
02:41:20,239 --> 02:41:21,840
do something here, Like something needs to be done and

2860
02:41:21,879 --> 02:41:24,799
people like really were ready for that conversation in the

2861
02:41:24,879 --> 02:41:28,799
nineteen sixties in the America that's coming. You know that

2862
02:41:28,920 --> 02:41:32,600
are nobody is going to care about that. Nobody will

2863
02:41:32,639 --> 02:41:36,760
care they can you know, talk about historical oppression or

2864
02:41:36,799 --> 02:41:40,879
whatever it is. And you know, I think maybe actually,

2865
02:41:41,399 --> 02:41:45,280
like the uh, maybe the tipping point, like something you

2866
02:41:45,280 --> 02:41:48,639
can probably look for is when you start to see

2867
02:41:48,680 --> 02:41:50,920
a lot of Jews really start to take the side

2868
02:41:50,920 --> 02:41:54,840
of Latinos when they come into conflict with Blacks, because

2869
02:41:54,879 --> 02:41:57,440
that's sort of like sticking your finger in the wind

2870
02:41:57,479 --> 02:42:00,200
and seeing which way it's blowing, you know, And so

2871
02:42:00,280 --> 02:42:02,840
you know, I feel bad for you know, I feel

2872
02:42:02,840 --> 02:42:05,040
bad for black people in this country right now in

2873
02:42:05,079 --> 02:42:06,479
a lot of ways because you know, I look at

2874
02:42:06,520 --> 02:42:09,319
something like Wakanda Forever or Black Lives Matter, and it's

2875
02:42:09,360 --> 02:42:12,600
so ridiculous in so many ways. But these people are

2876
02:42:12,639 --> 02:42:15,079
in like a pretty desperate situation and their future does

2877
02:42:15,120 --> 02:42:18,319
not look good, and you know, I look at those things,

2878
02:42:18,319 --> 02:42:21,760
it's like almost last gasps of a of an attempt

2879
02:42:21,760 --> 02:42:26,760
at creating some kind of a coherent identity and you

2880
02:42:26,760 --> 02:42:29,159
know a certain amount of political cohesion that'll help them

2881
02:42:29,280 --> 02:42:33,879
kind of withstand and you know, just help them survive

2882
02:42:34,200 --> 02:42:36,520
in a country that is going to be completely defined

2883
02:42:36,559 --> 02:42:40,360
by ethnic politics again, you know, where people who are

2884
02:42:40,440 --> 02:42:42,879
unrelated to any of our history of race relations in

2885
02:42:42,920 --> 02:42:45,479
this country are really running the show. And it's not

2886
02:42:45,520 --> 02:42:48,040
going to be you know, it's not gonna be very good.

2887
02:42:48,079 --> 02:42:50,479
I mean, talk about the Great Migration. Over the last

2888
02:42:50,479 --> 02:42:53,239
fifteen twenty years or so, there's been a reverse Great migration.

2889
02:42:53,559 --> 02:42:55,920
You know, the Blacks are getting driven out of the

2890
02:42:55,959 --> 02:42:58,719
cities because of rising real estate prices and everything, and

2891
02:42:58,719 --> 02:43:01,920
they're moving back to the South, and in some ways,

2892
02:43:01,920 --> 02:43:04,440
I mean that's kind of a you know, it's kind

2893
02:43:04,440 --> 02:43:06,520
of a tragic thing, right. You have like that uh,

2894
02:43:07,600 --> 02:43:10,600
what's that Midnight Train to Georgia? You know that old

2895
02:43:10,639 --> 02:43:12,959
song and it's about like this black dude who went

2896
02:43:13,000 --> 02:43:16,600
out to I think Los Angeles, Hollywood or something and

2897
02:43:16,760 --> 02:43:19,159
just couldn't really make it and so he ended up

2898
02:43:19,200 --> 02:43:21,639
going back to Georgia, taking the midnight train back to Georgia.

2899
02:43:21,680 --> 02:43:24,239
And it's like kind of a sad song. And uh,

2900
02:43:25,040 --> 02:43:28,719
that's happening like on mass now, you know. And so yeah,

2901
02:43:28,719 --> 02:43:31,360
it'll be very interesting, it'll be very interesting to see

2902
02:43:31,399 --> 02:43:33,479
how it develops. But I'm not optimistic.

2903
02:43:34,559 --> 02:43:35,559
Speaker 1: Plug anything you want.

2904
02:43:37,200 --> 02:43:41,920
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't have anything you come. I mean I

2905
02:43:41,920 --> 02:43:46,719
have a podcast Martyr Maide focuses primarily on like like

2906
02:43:47,000 --> 02:43:51,680
broader his historical topics, and then uh, I've got a

2907
02:43:51,719 --> 02:43:56,920
substack martyrmade dot substack dot com where I talk about

2908
02:43:57,040 --> 02:44:01,559
things that are you know, more current usually So yeah, sorry,

2909
02:44:01,600 --> 02:44:03,879
I don't like self promotion. I'm not good at it.

2910
02:44:05,120 --> 02:44:06,760
Speaker 1: I need to get better at it. I've been doing

2911
02:44:06,799 --> 02:44:08,360
this long enough that you think I would be a

2912
02:44:08,360 --> 02:44:11,479
lot better at it. But Darryl, thank you very much.

2913
02:44:11,520 --> 02:44:12,280
I appreciate it.

2914
02:44:12,639 --> 02:44:13,239
Speaker 2: Thanks man.

2915
02:44:14,680 --> 02:44:17,440
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pequnana Show.

2916
02:44:18,399 --> 02:44:20,559
I'm here with Darryl Cooper once again. How are you doing,

2917
02:44:20,639 --> 02:44:23,440
Daryl good Man. It's always good to be here with you.

2918
02:44:23,479 --> 02:44:26,959
Thanks well, thank you for joining me today. This is

2919
02:44:27,000 --> 02:44:30,760
a week where an announcement came down that for those

2920
02:44:30,799 --> 02:44:35,399
of us who actually know who runs foreign policy and

2921
02:44:35,440 --> 02:44:38,760
who influences foreign policy, it was a huge announcement that

2922
02:44:38,879 --> 02:44:44,319
Victoria Nolan was stepping down as I think was she undersecretary?

2923
02:44:47,000 --> 02:44:50,479
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, people like her, you know, their titles come

2924
02:44:50,520 --> 02:44:53,440
and go, but she's sort of one of those undead

2925
02:44:53,479 --> 02:44:57,920
creatures in Washington that no matter who's the Republican Democrat,

2926
02:44:57,920 --> 02:45:00,360
Dick Cheney, you know, Joe Biden, doesn't matter her like,

2927
02:45:00,399 --> 02:45:03,440
she kind of always hangs around and they maintain that

2928
02:45:04,479 --> 02:45:07,639
consistency of policy over the course of you know, many

2929
02:45:07,680 --> 02:45:13,200
administrations that has not ended well. And you know, hopefully

2930
02:45:13,239 --> 02:45:15,559
the fact that she's stepping down, I mean, she's going

2931
02:45:15,600 --> 02:45:17,639
to land on her feet. Don't worry about that. I'm

2932
02:45:17,639 --> 02:45:19,959
sure she'll have a nice gig at Harvard or something soon.

2933
02:45:20,079 --> 02:45:25,319
But it may signal that the policy that she's headed

2934
02:45:25,399 --> 02:45:29,239
up in Eastern Europe since you know, she was hired

2935
02:45:29,280 --> 02:45:32,280
to her current position in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, when

2936
02:45:32,319 --> 02:45:37,559
might Dan happened, that maybe we're deciding that we've got

2937
02:45:37,600 --> 02:45:40,399
to accept defeat on that front and move on. So

2938
02:45:40,680 --> 02:45:41,799
hopefully that's the case.

2939
02:45:42,840 --> 02:45:45,600
Speaker 1: When you see someone like her step down, someone who's

2940
02:45:45,639 --> 02:45:49,399
such a permanent fixture in what you would call the

2941
02:45:49,440 --> 02:45:53,200
administrative state, really what's your reaction.

2942
02:45:55,840 --> 02:45:58,959
Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's a lot of sort of musical

2943
02:45:59,040 --> 02:46:01,079
chairs going on with the like this, and so you

2944
02:46:01,120 --> 02:46:05,639
have to look at who she's replaced by, and you know,

2945
02:46:05,680 --> 02:46:08,319
the guy that they brought in I don't know a

2946
02:46:08,360 --> 02:46:10,319
whole lot about him except that he used to work

2947
02:46:10,319 --> 02:46:14,239
for Strobe Talbot, and you know, Strobe Talbot was one

2948
02:46:14,280 --> 02:46:20,079
of Clinton's main Russia guys back in the nineties. And he,

2949
02:46:20,200 --> 02:46:22,920
you know, he's not a he's not an idiologue like

2950
02:46:23,000 --> 02:46:26,120
someone like like Victoria Newland in her set is like

2951
02:46:26,159 --> 02:46:30,239
with regard to Russia. He's more pragmatic. He was always

2952
02:46:30,239 --> 02:46:34,399
somebody though who ah. You know, when he he may

2953
02:46:34,399 --> 02:46:36,719
have thought something was a bad idea or he was

2954
02:46:36,719 --> 02:46:39,159
pushing for something he thought was a good idea. But

2955
02:46:39,239 --> 02:46:41,840
when Clinton told him, no, you're going to go do

2956
02:46:41,959 --> 02:46:44,399
this and endorse it fully and push it on everybody else,

2957
02:46:44,440 --> 02:46:47,559
he would follow orders and go do it. So you know,

2958
02:46:47,799 --> 02:46:51,280
he he uh all all things told, I'd rather have

2959
02:46:51,799 --> 02:46:56,000
a pragnant, pragmatist like that in there than somebody like Newland.

2960
02:46:57,600 --> 02:46:59,719
But yeah, it's hard to read these things because again,

2961
02:46:59,840 --> 02:47:03,040
like you know, new Ones not leaving the foreign policy scene.

2962
02:47:03,159 --> 02:47:05,799
She's gonna go get hooked up at Brookings or CSIS

2963
02:47:05,840 --> 02:47:09,520
and you know, teach classes at Georgetown about how we

2964
02:47:09,520 --> 02:47:13,040
ought to conduct their foreign policy. So you know, it's

2965
02:47:13,040 --> 02:47:16,280
not some giant victory. But as far as the immediate

2966
02:47:16,559 --> 02:47:19,600
policy with regard to Russian and Ukraine. It hopefully signals,

2967
02:47:19,639 --> 02:47:21,440
you know, an improvement in that area.

2968
02:47:23,159 --> 02:47:26,799
Speaker 1: When you look at all of this. I was listening

2969
02:47:26,840 --> 02:47:30,479
to Scott Rider the other day, was saying he believes

2970
02:47:30,479 --> 02:47:34,840
that as many as four hundred thousand Ukrainian men could

2971
02:47:34,840 --> 02:47:39,399
be dead, and what they're judging that bias. They're looking

2972
02:47:39,440 --> 02:47:43,000
at obituaries. They're kunt of obituaries for the last two

2973
02:47:43,079 --> 02:47:46,719
years that have appeared. He says, another one hundred thousand

2974
02:47:46,840 --> 02:47:52,159
could be missing. Do those numbers seem in the ballpark

2975
02:47:52,159 --> 02:47:53,159
of what you've been looking at?

2976
02:47:54,399 --> 02:47:57,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously it's hard to say, but you know, when

2977
02:47:57,600 --> 02:48:00,959
I look at you, I think these numbers came from

2978
02:48:01,319 --> 02:48:05,440
Ukraine or if not Ukraine, US officials, but one of

2979
02:48:05,479 --> 02:48:08,920
the two that the average age of a Ukrainian infantryman

2980
02:48:09,000 --> 02:48:11,079
on the field right now is forty three years old.

2981
02:48:12,079 --> 02:48:16,280
I mean, you know, that's like Germans in February of

2982
02:48:16,319 --> 02:48:20,399
nineteen forty five numbers. You know, because you know, again

2983
02:48:20,440 --> 02:48:24,399
it doesn't mean that everybody on the battlefield is forty three.

2984
02:48:24,479 --> 02:48:26,719
Some of them are twenty five, But they got fifty

2985
02:48:26,760 --> 02:48:28,319
five and sixty year old guys out there.

2986
02:48:28,319 --> 02:48:28,520
Speaker 1: Now.

2987
02:48:28,600 --> 02:48:30,360
Speaker 2: And if you're scrape in the bottom of the barrel

2988
02:48:30,440 --> 02:48:34,000
like that, then you know a country of pre war

2989
02:48:34,239 --> 02:48:37,559
was it thirty five forty million people or something, and

2990
02:48:37,639 --> 02:48:39,879
you're scraping the bottom of the barrel like that, then

2991
02:48:40,399 --> 02:48:44,040
you're hurting for manpower, no question about it. And you'd

2992
02:48:44,040 --> 02:48:45,440
have to kill a whole hell of a lot of

2993
02:48:45,639 --> 02:48:48,440
Ukrainian men to get them to that point. So you know,

2994
02:48:48,479 --> 02:48:51,280
whether it's four hundred thousand or five hundred thousand, or

2995
02:48:52,079 --> 02:48:54,360
it's a lot, it's a hell of a lot.

2996
02:48:55,639 --> 02:48:59,920
Speaker 1: Go back to Maidan and what is your take on it?

2997
02:49:00,079 --> 02:49:05,879
What's your take on why? Why a coup took place?

2998
02:49:06,079 --> 02:49:09,680
Why the yep, everybody wants to talk about the house.

2999
02:49:09,719 --> 02:49:12,680
Everybody wants to talk about snipers here there. I've read,

3000
02:49:12,879 --> 02:49:15,559
I've read it all. To me, it's always the why.

3001
02:49:16,239 --> 02:49:19,399
So why you know?

3002
02:49:19,399 --> 02:49:23,959
Speaker 2: I uh? I read this anecdote from the former ci

3003
02:49:24,079 --> 02:49:28,639
director and Defense Secretary Bob Gates, who you know, obviously

3004
02:49:28,760 --> 02:49:33,120
is a swamp creature, but uh, relative to his colleagues,

3005
02:49:33,159 --> 02:49:35,360
you know, is more sensible, I think than most of

3006
02:49:35,360 --> 02:49:37,719
the people who've been in those positions for quite a while.

3007
02:49:39,040 --> 02:49:42,440
And he was asked about our difference in approach toward

3008
02:49:42,520 --> 02:49:46,639
Russia and the Soviet Union versus our approach to China

3009
02:49:47,079 --> 02:49:49,239
over over the years, and this was, you know, a

3010
02:49:49,280 --> 02:49:52,959
little this was a handful of years ago before a

3011
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:55,000
lot of people have started to talk about, you know,

3012
02:49:55,040 --> 02:49:58,120
our need to start focusing on China more. But you know,

3013
02:49:58,200 --> 02:49:59,920
he said it was very interesting because you go back

3014
02:50:00,159 --> 02:50:03,200
nineteen eighty nine and you have these two communist powers

3015
02:50:03,479 --> 02:50:08,200
and one of them agrees to let their empire go voluntarily,

3016
02:50:08,600 --> 02:50:13,639
agrees to have a bloodless democratic revolution, essentially agrees to

3017
02:50:13,719 --> 02:50:17,200
end the Cold War without a fight. The other side

3018
02:50:17,799 --> 02:50:20,479
had Tianum and Square, and you know, I know there's

3019
02:50:20,639 --> 02:50:22,760
sort of some revisionism going on about that, and I

3020
02:50:22,760 --> 02:50:25,680
haven't really sort of through any of that yet, but

3021
02:50:26,120 --> 02:50:28,479
there's something going on in nineteen eighty nine in China

3022
02:50:28,559 --> 02:50:31,959
that was, you know, trying to put pressure on that regime,

3023
02:50:31,959 --> 02:50:36,120
and they squashed it. And from that point on, you know,

3024
02:50:36,200 --> 02:50:39,559
we've pretty much been treating China like a good buddy

3025
02:50:39,559 --> 02:50:41,840
and somebody we can trust and work with and so forth,

3026
02:50:41,879 --> 02:50:45,840
and we've been just like rabid dogs when it comes

3027
02:50:45,879 --> 02:50:48,319
to Russia, at least after they stopped taking orders from US,

3028
02:50:48,319 --> 02:50:52,120
in the nineteen nineties, and so Gates was asked about this.

3029
02:50:52,200 --> 02:50:54,760
He says, you know, it is interesting, he said, if

3030
02:50:54,760 --> 02:50:58,600
you go back to like World War Two, this is

3031
02:50:58,600 --> 02:51:00,639
hard for us to even really imagine in these days

3032
02:51:00,680 --> 02:51:03,399
because we're just we've grown up in the Empire. You know,

3033
02:51:04,920 --> 02:51:07,360
when the OSS was stood up, when America came into

3034
02:51:07,360 --> 02:51:11,079
the war, like, we had no presence overseas, we had

3035
02:51:11,120 --> 02:51:14,120
no intelligence presence overseas, we had nothing, to the point

3036
02:51:14,159 --> 02:51:20,239
where Dulles was actually bringing in recent immigrants from like

3037
02:51:20,319 --> 02:51:23,399
Holland and stuff to ask them to draw diagrams of

3038
02:51:23,440 --> 02:51:26,280
like where the port is and stuff. That's where our

3039
02:51:26,799 --> 02:51:29,319
you know, our foreign intelligence presence was at the time.

3040
02:51:30,079 --> 02:51:32,639
And so you know, you start out like that, we

3041
02:51:32,680 --> 02:51:36,360
have to stand up a Soviet Union desk at this

3042
02:51:36,440 --> 02:51:38,920
new intelligence agency, or you know, we have to beef

3043
02:51:39,000 --> 02:51:40,959
up the Soviet desk at the State Department. We have

3044
02:51:41,040 --> 02:51:43,639
to build out these institutions now to deal with these

3045
02:51:44,040 --> 02:51:46,760
these things that are emerging. And he said, when we

3046
02:51:46,799 --> 02:51:51,559
started doing that with China, the people that we hired

3047
02:51:51,719 --> 02:51:55,559
to fill all the seats at the China desk, whether

3048
02:51:55,600 --> 02:52:01,120
it's State Department or DD or the intelligence agencies mostly

3049
02:52:01,799 --> 02:52:07,319
like overwhelmingly they were the children of missionaries who had

3050
02:52:07,319 --> 02:52:10,840
spent a lot of time in China, and they liked China.

3051
02:52:10,879 --> 02:52:13,319
They like Chinese people, they like Chinese culture, and they

3052
02:52:13,360 --> 02:52:18,000
sort of saw their role as you know, facilitating peaceful

3053
02:52:18,040 --> 02:52:20,520
mediation between their country and this country that they had

3054
02:52:20,520 --> 02:52:25,479
a lot of respect for with regard to the Soviet Union.

3055
02:52:25,520 --> 02:52:27,520
When we started doing that, and even before that, when

3056
02:52:27,520 --> 02:52:29,799
we had like, you know, our diplomatic corps in the

3057
02:52:29,879 --> 02:52:32,680
Russian Empire before the Soviets, small as it was, wasn't

3058
02:52:32,799 --> 02:52:37,079
you know, ah, we filled that up almost entirely with

3059
02:52:38,159 --> 02:52:41,159
non Russian refugees who had come over who did not

3060
02:52:41,440 --> 02:52:44,920
like Russians, they did not like you know, and they

3061
02:52:44,959 --> 02:52:48,760
saw their role as helping the United States, United States

3062
02:52:48,760 --> 02:52:51,520
fight this beast, or using the United States to fight

3063
02:52:51,600 --> 02:52:56,280
this beast, and that you know, Gates said that when

3064
02:52:56,360 --> 02:52:58,799
you start, you know, bureaucracies have a lot of sort of, uh,

3065
02:52:59,200 --> 02:53:01,639
just inertia behind them, and so when you start out

3066
02:53:02,399 --> 02:53:05,879
with a certain attitude, a certain approach, it stays that

3067
02:53:05,959 --> 02:53:08,280
way for you know, unless you have some sort of

3068
02:53:08,719 --> 02:53:11,000
conscious cleanup of it. It's going to stay that way

3069
02:53:11,040 --> 02:53:14,719
because everybody there's like it. You hire somebody new, they

3070
02:53:14,719 --> 02:53:17,639
get integrated into that culture, the old people retire, you

3071
02:53:17,680 --> 02:53:20,600
bring in new people, and it just maintains that culture

3072
02:53:20,639 --> 02:53:24,479
and that approach. And you know, I think that that's

3073
02:53:24,479 --> 02:53:32,360
something we've really seen pick up, you know, in spades

3074
02:53:32,559 --> 02:53:35,520
since the Soviet Union fell, or really since like I

3075
02:53:35,520 --> 02:53:37,639
guess the eighties is when we started taking in like

3076
02:53:37,680 --> 02:53:39,680
a lot of refugees, and then in the nineties, like

3077
02:53:39,719 --> 02:53:45,440
a whole lot where you know, if you and not

3078
02:53:45,479 --> 02:53:49,159
only refugees, just foreign nationals and you know, recent immigrants

3079
02:53:49,159 --> 02:53:50,879
and stuff. If you look back at the nineteen nineties

3080
02:53:50,920 --> 02:53:55,000
for example, like whether you're talking about Madeline Albright, whether

3081
02:53:55,000 --> 02:53:57,639
you're talking about the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs in

3082
02:53:57,680 --> 02:54:02,559
the in the mid nineties under Clinton, General Salakashvili, just

3083
02:54:02,600 --> 02:54:05,799
across the board, you see the same thing you saw

3084
02:54:06,000 --> 02:54:11,280
during the first Trump impeachment hearing it's just one emigrat

3085
02:54:11,440 --> 02:54:14,440
after another from Eastern Europe or from from that region

3086
02:54:15,000 --> 02:54:17,399
going up, and you're like, you know, you kind of

3087
02:54:17,399 --> 02:54:21,600
realize that these people are they're bringing their priors with

3088
02:54:21,639 --> 02:54:23,840
them when they come to the United States and join

3089
02:54:23,920 --> 02:54:28,600
up for that, and you know, you can understand what look.

3090
02:54:28,719 --> 02:54:34,520
I mean, if you need somebody to work intelligence or

3091
02:54:34,639 --> 02:54:38,559
or in your diplomatic corps for uh, you know, Nigeria,

3092
02:54:38,719 --> 02:54:42,120
the child of a Nigerian immigrant is probably a good

3093
02:54:42,120 --> 02:54:44,639
candidate to do that. You know, they understand the culture

3094
02:54:44,719 --> 02:54:47,479
and can bring that to it. But there's down there's

3095
02:54:47,520 --> 02:54:50,040
downsides to it, you know, especially when the other side

3096
02:54:50,079 --> 02:54:51,680
really comes with a chip on its shoulder.

3097
02:54:53,600 --> 02:54:55,920
Speaker 1: I guess listening to what you just said, I get

3098
02:54:56,000 --> 02:55:00,280
some people could say, well, because they chose people who

3099
02:55:00,319 --> 02:55:03,399
were more sympathetic to China, maybe that's why we have

3100
02:55:03,479 --> 02:55:04,879
so many China problems now.

3101
02:55:06,559 --> 02:55:09,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean for sure, although I would say our

3102
02:55:09,879 --> 02:55:13,200
China problems really didn't start until you know, the late

3103
02:55:13,280 --> 02:55:15,840
nineties or so. I mean when we when we decided

3104
02:55:15,840 --> 02:55:17,840
to let them into the WTO and just kind of

3105
02:55:18,440 --> 02:55:21,079
through that open you know, before that. And this really

3106
02:55:21,120 --> 02:55:23,959
goes to like US hoeign policy as a whole. You know,

3107
02:55:23,959 --> 02:55:28,040
if you go back to even the even the eighties,

3108
02:55:28,040 --> 02:55:32,440
I'll say, up through the eighties even you know, you

3109
02:55:32,559 --> 02:55:35,520
still had this sort of this sort of old school

3110
02:55:37,079 --> 02:55:41,040
wasp attitude, post warlike kind of wasp attitude where you know,

3111
02:55:41,079 --> 02:55:43,440
you had guys like James Baker. You had these people

3112
02:55:43,440 --> 02:55:47,520
who had enough heft in gravitas, not just in Washington,

3113
02:55:47,600 --> 02:55:51,239
but just sort of in general that they could control

3114
02:55:51,280 --> 02:55:53,159
the fanatics and hold them back a little bit and

3115
02:55:53,159 --> 02:55:57,760
overrule them a bit. You know, you get up into

3116
02:55:57,799 --> 02:55:59,959
the nineteen nineties after the fall of the Soviet Union,

3117
02:56:00,120 --> 02:56:02,280
and you know, a lot of those people really started

3118
02:56:02,319 --> 02:56:04,360
to fade away, to the point where you get up

3119
02:56:04,399 --> 02:56:07,040
to the Bush administration and like, you know, our foreign

3120
02:56:07,120 --> 02:56:10,639
policy is just totally hijacked by a bunch of second

3121
02:56:10,680 --> 02:56:13,799
and third generation neo cons that somebody like George Kennon

3122
02:56:13,879 --> 02:56:16,159
never would have even allowed into his office, you know,

3123
02:56:16,280 --> 02:56:20,399
and so that that sort of consistent hand on the

3124
02:56:20,440 --> 02:56:23,559
steering wheel leadership at the very, very very top level

3125
02:56:24,319 --> 02:56:28,239
has sort of evaporated. You know, it really doesn't exist anymore.

3126
02:56:28,040 --> 02:56:30,399
There is like a there's a ruling class, but it's

3127
02:56:30,399 --> 02:56:32,520
sort of amorphous, and people come and go, and you

3128
02:56:32,559 --> 02:56:35,000
can come in and be cast out. And it's not

3129
02:56:35,120 --> 02:56:38,319
this you know, it's not the Sons of Cincinnatis anymore,

3130
02:56:38,600 --> 02:56:41,600
you know, the children of the American Revolution or something.

3131
02:56:41,680 --> 02:56:44,040
And so you know, there's nobody who has like a

3132
02:56:44,079 --> 02:56:47,840
real sense of proprietorship over the country and feels like,

3133
02:56:48,520 --> 02:56:53,040
you know, by thinking about the long term future of

3134
02:56:53,079 --> 02:56:55,680
the country, they're looking after the long term future of

3135
02:56:55,719 --> 02:56:58,799
their own grandkids and great grandkids in a very real sense,

3136
02:56:58,840 --> 02:57:01,559
because this is their legacy that they're going to inherit,

3137
02:57:02,600 --> 02:57:05,360
you know. Now, it's there's nobody like that for the

3138
02:57:05,360 --> 02:57:07,280
most part, and so it's just a big free for all,

3139
02:57:07,760 --> 02:57:12,239
you know, And it's whichever interest group is the best

3140
02:57:12,360 --> 02:57:15,159
organized and the best funded and the most ruthless and

3141
02:57:15,280 --> 02:57:18,680
just the best at getting their way through all the

3142
02:57:18,760 --> 02:57:22,920
various you know, levers that we provide for that they

3143
02:57:22,959 --> 02:57:26,120
tend to get their way, you know. And it's not

3144
02:57:26,200 --> 02:57:29,879
a conspiracy necessarily. It's not something that you know, there's

3145
02:57:29,879 --> 02:57:34,200
a there's this sort of you know, deep seated sort

3146
02:57:34,200 --> 02:57:38,159
of conspiracy against Russia that keeps US in this belligerent

3147
02:57:38,280 --> 02:57:42,120
attitude toward them. That I mean, it's that when I

3148
02:57:42,159 --> 02:57:44,440
say there's not some conspiracy, I mean it's not something

3149
02:57:44,440 --> 02:57:47,120
that like pervades the whole government. It's not like the

3150
02:57:47,200 --> 02:57:50,040
regime is like this. It's that the people who feel

3151
02:57:50,079 --> 02:57:52,360
that way, they know how to work the system. They're

3152
02:57:52,399 --> 02:57:56,159
extremely well organized, they're extremely well funded, you know, especially

3153
02:57:56,200 --> 02:57:59,760
since Putin throughout all the billionaires I mean or a

3154
02:57:59,760 --> 02:58:03,200
lot those oligarchs, those guys have been spending their money

3155
02:58:03,239 --> 02:58:07,399
in London and New York to get you know, NATO

3156
02:58:07,479 --> 02:58:10,280
and our countries to remain belligerent toward Potin ever since

3157
02:58:10,319 --> 02:58:13,239
they got run out of town. So you know, there's

3158
02:58:13,239 --> 02:58:15,000
a lot of money behind it, a lot of organization.

3159
02:58:15,159 --> 02:58:17,120
And then you have on top of that sort of

3160
02:58:17,159 --> 02:58:20,799
the long term institutional approach that you know, I just

3161
02:58:20,959 --> 02:58:22,280
that Gates described so.

3162
02:58:23,559 --> 02:58:26,159
Speaker 1: Well, that's what part of them being the manager being

3163
02:58:26,200 --> 02:58:30,280
under a managerial regime does, right. You you can have

3164
02:58:30,399 --> 02:58:34,319
these little special interest groups, unelected special interest groups, you know,

3165
02:58:34,360 --> 02:58:38,440
people who they can be fired, but if they do

3166
02:58:38,520 --> 02:58:40,879
their job well, they can be there for for a

3167
02:58:41,040 --> 02:58:45,000
very very long time. Even after the administrations come and go,

3168
02:58:45,120 --> 02:58:49,760
they stay around. And you can have these where it's

3169
02:58:49,840 --> 02:58:52,879
not really a conspiracy. All it is is there is

3170
02:58:53,040 --> 02:58:55,920
one group inside the government that's like, Okay, this is

3171
02:58:55,959 --> 02:58:58,440
what we want to do. We have the power to

3172
02:58:58,600 --> 02:59:03,680
do it, so let's trade. Let's work with this NGO whomever,

3173
02:59:04,280 --> 02:59:08,799
and let's you know, institute a coup and put our

3174
02:59:08,799 --> 02:59:12,159
guy into place. And you can have you know, you

3175
02:59:12,200 --> 02:59:16,319
can have audio on YouTube with the proof where you

3176
02:59:16,319 --> 02:59:19,040
know they're like, oh what what, what was it?

3177
02:59:19,120 --> 02:59:19,520
Speaker 2: You EU?

3178
02:59:19,639 --> 02:59:22,840
Speaker 1: Going to say? Well, fuck the EU. I mean, that's

3179
02:59:22,920 --> 02:59:25,040
that's what we get, right when we have a managerial regime.

3180
02:59:25,120 --> 02:59:28,840
We can have two or three people who decide, let's

3181
02:59:28,879 --> 02:59:31,520
funment a war on the other side of the planet,

3182
02:59:31,600 --> 02:59:33,120
and there you go.

3183
02:59:34,719 --> 02:59:39,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know, I think maybe in one of

3184
02:59:39,280 --> 02:59:43,799
your one of your conversations with with Thomas something he said,

3185
02:59:43,840 --> 02:59:47,799
he said that the American government is a machine that

3186
02:59:47,920 --> 02:59:50,760
has been built, was built to fight the Cold War, right,

3187
02:59:51,239 --> 02:59:54,079
And you know, and I would I would say the

3188
02:59:54,079 --> 02:59:55,719
Cold War in World War two, because if you go

3189
02:59:55,760 --> 02:59:58,959
back to like December sixth, nineteen forty one and look

3190
02:59:58,959 --> 03:00:01,079
at the size and the funk of the federal government,

3191
03:00:01,239 --> 03:00:04,360
it was ninety nine percent of what we have now,

3192
03:00:04,440 --> 03:00:06,680
Like it was one percent of what we have now.

3193
03:00:07,079 --> 03:00:09,280
And so it grew up in that environment and the

3194
03:00:09,360 --> 03:00:14,120
environment of total war and global conflict with the Soviet Union,

3195
03:00:14,879 --> 03:00:18,520
and you know, that's just not something you can necessarily

3196
03:00:18,559 --> 03:00:22,079
shut off. You know, I'm doing a series on my

3197
03:00:22,120 --> 03:00:25,079
substack right now about the history of like slavery, going

3198
03:00:25,120 --> 03:00:26,680
back a long ways and taking it up to the

3199
03:00:26,760 --> 03:00:29,200
lead up to the American Civil War, and I was

3200
03:00:29,200 --> 03:00:32,239
talking about the Spanish and the Portuguese and how you know,

3201
03:00:32,559 --> 03:00:36,840
if you're gonna when you want to talk about the

3202
03:00:36,879 --> 03:00:39,319
approach they took when they when they came over into

3203
03:00:39,399 --> 03:00:41,159
the New World, or any of the other places that

3204
03:00:41,200 --> 03:00:43,479
they ended up. You know, these people had been in

3205
03:00:43,680 --> 03:00:48,280
war for hundreds and hundreds of years. For six hundred years,

3206
03:00:48,520 --> 03:00:52,360
they had been at continual war against the Moors, pushing

3207
03:00:52,360 --> 03:00:54,959
them out of Iberia, and so it was built into

3208
03:00:55,000 --> 03:00:57,200
their culture. It was built into the very way that

3209
03:00:57,280 --> 03:01:00,760
like the incentives that led to certain people being promoted

3210
03:01:00,799 --> 03:01:03,719
and receiving sort of you know, and you can't just

3211
03:01:03,760 --> 03:01:06,239
turn something like that off. And so we have a

3212
03:01:06,360 --> 03:01:08,760
we have a government that's built to fight a war

3213
03:01:08,879 --> 03:01:13,360
like that, and you know, it's it's I mean, look,

3214
03:01:13,360 --> 03:01:15,479
Samuel Huntington did not have to be a genius to

3215
03:01:15,559 --> 03:01:17,879
know that after the Soviet Union fell, we were going

3216
03:01:17,959 --> 03:01:20,399
to go look for another enemy, and it was probably

3217
03:01:20,440 --> 03:01:22,559
going to be Islam, you know, he called that one.

3218
03:01:22,799 --> 03:01:26,000
Islam proved to be sort of an unworthy adversary in

3219
03:01:26,040 --> 03:01:29,000
a certain at least for our purposes. And so we

3220
03:01:29,159 --> 03:01:30,879
you know, we sort of moved back to trust the

3221
03:01:30,920 --> 03:01:32,840
old Russia.

3222
03:01:32,959 --> 03:01:38,959
Speaker 1: It really seems like that that Russia can be made

3223
03:01:39,120 --> 03:01:44,040
into the enemy at any given time. It because when

3224
03:01:44,079 --> 03:01:48,200
you when you had a standoff for so long, even

3225
03:01:48,239 --> 03:01:51,920
before that under the Cizar there were issues. You can

3226
03:01:51,920 --> 03:01:55,200
go to the Civil War and the argument could be

3227
03:01:55,239 --> 03:01:59,280
made that the North wouldn't have one without Russia. There's

3228
03:02:00,040 --> 03:02:04,440
it seems like Russia is definitely a whipping boy someone,

3229
03:02:06,000 --> 03:02:13,440
especially a country that's so resource rich that you're if

3230
03:02:13,479 --> 03:02:17,079
you're in a perpetual war state, they're an easy enemy.

3231
03:02:17,559 --> 03:02:19,959
They're not they're slav they're not most A lot of

3232
03:02:20,000 --> 03:02:22,479
people say they're not like us, they're not like Westerners,

3233
03:02:22,959 --> 03:02:25,680
and yeah, there is all there are all of these

3234
03:02:25,799 --> 03:02:30,520
riches there, and yeah, it just it seems like it's

3235
03:02:30,559 --> 03:02:36,040
the perfect the perfect country to pick on, especially when

3236
03:02:36,079 --> 03:02:43,559
you're when you've done so much to basically defeat and

3237
03:02:43,600 --> 03:02:46,799
demoralize the countries that surround it that you can insinuate

3238
03:02:46,840 --> 03:02:50,639
yourselves into those countries and basically surround them much like

3239
03:02:50,719 --> 03:02:51,639
they did what they're in.

3240
03:02:53,399 --> 03:02:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know you talk about the money that's there.

3241
03:02:56,079 --> 03:02:58,680
I think that really gets kind of at the at

3242
03:02:58,680 --> 03:03:01,559
the deepest part of it, let's say, the most proximate

3243
03:03:01,639 --> 03:03:05,040
cause of why we've taken the approach we have since

3244
03:03:05,440 --> 03:03:07,520
Putin came to power. You know, if you if you

3245
03:03:08,680 --> 03:03:10,719
look at you know, after the collapse of the Soviet

3246
03:03:10,799 --> 03:03:15,079
Union in ninety one, most people out there probably know

3247
03:03:15,159 --> 03:03:18,200
things were not good in the former Soviet world, especially

3248
03:03:18,200 --> 03:03:21,680
in Russia. You know, and you just put that in

3249
03:03:21,719 --> 03:03:24,799
some kind of context. I mean, you know, in twenty twenty,

3250
03:03:25,040 --> 03:03:30,799
twenty twenty one, with COVID, with record numbers of people

3251
03:03:30,959 --> 03:03:35,879
in America committing suicide, record numbers of people dying from

3252
03:03:36,040 --> 03:03:38,920
death to despair, alcohol and drugs and things like that,

3253
03:03:39,879 --> 03:03:43,120
the life expectancy in America dropped. It dropped by about

3254
03:03:43,159 --> 03:03:45,360
six months or something, six to eight months, I think.

3255
03:03:46,319 --> 03:03:49,920
And that's a big deal. That's a very traumatic thing

3256
03:03:49,959 --> 03:03:51,520
to happen. You look at all the death that you

3257
03:03:51,600 --> 03:03:54,280
know that's happening. You know, record numbers of suicides and

3258
03:03:54,319 --> 03:03:56,440
death to despair is no joke. People feel that, and

3259
03:03:56,440 --> 03:03:59,559
it affects the culture in a very deep way. The

3260
03:03:59,600 --> 03:04:03,559
life expectancy in Russia, you know, from nineteen eighty nine

3261
03:04:03,559 --> 03:04:06,399
when the Berlin Wall came down to nineteen ninety five,

3262
03:04:06,520 --> 03:04:08,959
just six years, dropped about a decade, a little over

3263
03:04:09,000 --> 03:04:12,079
a decade, actually, you know, And when you look at

3264
03:04:12,120 --> 03:04:17,479
the distribution of who was affected, it wasn't that you know,

3265
03:04:17,920 --> 03:04:21,559
a lot more babies were dying at birth. It wasn't

3266
03:04:21,600 --> 03:04:28,000
that a lot of women were dying that women life expectancy.

3267
03:04:28,399 --> 03:04:31,360
Female life expectancy was not affected all that much. And

3268
03:04:31,399 --> 03:04:34,399
the people who were already like fifty or sixty years old,

3269
03:04:34,520 --> 03:04:37,479
like theirs, wasn't affected too much. It was pretty much

3270
03:04:37,600 --> 03:04:41,360
all just hyper concentrated in that group of men, like

3271
03:04:41,600 --> 03:04:44,879
you know, fifteen to forty years old, and they weren't

3272
03:04:44,959 --> 03:04:49,000
dying of you know, because of an increase of cancer rates,

3273
03:04:49,040 --> 03:04:56,360
like the life expectancy dropped ten years because of malnutrition, alcoholism,

3274
03:04:56,799 --> 03:05:02,319
drug addiction, and violence. And so when you think about again,

3275
03:05:02,399 --> 03:05:03,920
like what I just said about COVID and the deaths

3276
03:05:03,959 --> 03:05:06,360
of despair over here, which are all at records, for

3277
03:05:06,440 --> 03:05:09,159
it to drop six eight months, for it to drop

3278
03:05:09,200 --> 03:05:12,920
a decade, I mean, you need you know, it was

3279
03:05:12,959 --> 03:05:15,159
a nightmare. It was an absolute nightmare for these people.

3280
03:05:15,680 --> 03:05:17,920
You know, you when you you know, there's a there's

3281
03:05:17,959 --> 03:05:21,440
an element to it. It's sort of like Germany after

3282
03:05:21,479 --> 03:05:25,719
the First World War. You know, people, even people who

3283
03:05:25,760 --> 03:05:29,639
are sort of pro Russia and you know, against the

3284
03:05:29,760 --> 03:05:34,799
US approach there, they don't necessarily like this analogy because

3285
03:05:34,959 --> 03:05:38,239
you know, the end result is that they end up

3286
03:05:38,280 --> 03:05:40,319
where the Germans are ending up. But I think it's

3287
03:05:40,319 --> 03:05:42,479
a solid analogy in a lot of ways. You know,

3288
03:05:42,920 --> 03:05:47,879
if you think about how, you know, the Germans fight

3289
03:05:47,959 --> 03:05:52,319
this long, hard war, and people can, you know, historians

3290
03:05:52,360 --> 03:05:55,239
can debate how the whole thing ended and whether they

3291
03:05:55,239 --> 03:05:58,520
were stabbed in the back or lied to whatever. But

3292
03:05:58,559 --> 03:06:01,000
the fact is, like they certainly felt that way, and

3293
03:06:01,040 --> 03:06:03,479
they weren't just being bitchy about it, Like they really

3294
03:06:03,520 --> 03:06:05,920
felt that way, like, and they had good reason. Even

3295
03:06:05,920 --> 03:06:08,200
if you don't agree, you have to like listen to

3296
03:06:08,239 --> 03:06:13,120
their reasoning and admit it's consistent right that they felt

3297
03:06:13,639 --> 03:06:17,440
that they had agreed to lay down their arms. Churchill

3298
03:06:17,600 --> 03:06:20,319
kept the British Navy cutting off their food. You know,

3299
03:06:20,559 --> 03:06:22,760
tons of Germans were starving to death, and then they

3300
03:06:22,799 --> 03:06:26,920
were basically forced knife at their throat to sign just

3301
03:06:26,959 --> 03:06:30,760
an unbelievably punitive treaty. And so you know, you have

3302
03:06:30,840 --> 03:06:34,600
the hyperinflation in twenty three and you go into the twenties,

3303
03:06:35,079 --> 03:06:38,079
and you know, you have to try to put yourself

3304
03:06:38,079 --> 03:06:42,639
in like the in this place where you're observing this

3305
03:06:42,680 --> 03:06:45,239
happened to your own society and how it would radicalize

3306
03:06:45,280 --> 03:06:49,360
and affect you right where. You know, the middle class

3307
03:06:49,440 --> 03:06:52,959
due to the inflation just got completely and totally wiped out.

3308
03:06:53,120 --> 03:06:56,159
I mean, you know, people out there on who listened

3309
03:06:56,159 --> 03:06:58,239
to your show know what hyperinflation is, and they know

3310
03:06:58,319 --> 03:07:01,200
that the middle classes are the ones who get annihilated

3311
03:07:01,239 --> 03:07:04,959
by that. You know, the poor they have nothing and

3312
03:07:05,000 --> 03:07:08,239
there in debt, and their debts are worthless now, so

3313
03:07:08,600 --> 03:07:11,239
in a way they're better off. The rich people have

3314
03:07:11,319 --> 03:07:15,440
international connections, connections to you know, international currencies, they own

3315
03:07:15,479 --> 03:07:18,360
hard assets and other things, and they sort of ride

3316
03:07:18,399 --> 03:07:20,840
the inflation wave up to a degree. But the middle class,

3317
03:07:21,000 --> 03:07:24,799
who has their money in annuities and savings, you know,

3318
03:07:25,000 --> 03:07:26,959
when all of a sudden you've got to go to

3319
03:07:27,000 --> 03:07:28,840
the store to buy a loaf of bread with a

3320
03:07:28,840 --> 03:07:32,920
wheelbarrow full of cash, those people just lost everything like immediately.

3321
03:07:33,120 --> 03:07:37,639
And you literally had like respectable middle class German women

3322
03:07:38,399 --> 03:07:41,200
who were having to resort to turning their homes into

3323
03:07:41,239 --> 03:07:44,000
brothels because they just had no other way to feed

3324
03:07:44,040 --> 03:07:47,680
their children or feed themselves, and this was epidemic across

3325
03:07:47,719 --> 03:07:52,000
the country, you know, and you have to again think about, like,

3326
03:07:52,120 --> 03:07:55,239
how if that were going on, especially if you felt

3327
03:07:55,280 --> 03:07:57,440
like the reason you're in this position is because you

3328
03:07:57,440 --> 03:08:00,680
were tricked and misled and the you could have kept

3329
03:08:00,719 --> 03:08:02,559
fighting if you knew they were going to do this,

3330
03:08:02,639 --> 03:08:07,200
and you would have, but that they lied to you,

3331
03:08:07,200 --> 03:08:11,399
you know, it would be extremely radicalizing. And so you know,

3332
03:08:11,559 --> 03:08:16,000
if you if you want to follow that an analogy further,

3333
03:08:16,040 --> 03:08:18,360
I mean, shoot, after the First World War, we sheared off,

3334
03:08:19,040 --> 03:08:21,120
you know what, fifteen percent or whatever it is of

3335
03:08:21,159 --> 03:08:26,360
the German population. And from the moment, you know, from

3336
03:08:26,360 --> 03:08:29,479
from the moment that happened, the new German government, even

3337
03:08:29,520 --> 03:08:32,840
the Weimar government, was expressing a lot of concern about

3338
03:08:32,879 --> 03:08:35,440
the fate of those people. Because you know, you have

3339
03:08:35,479 --> 03:08:37,879
a country like Poland that hasn't been a country for

3340
03:08:37,920 --> 03:08:40,559
a long time, and now it's a country, and so

3341
03:08:40,559 --> 03:08:43,360
you're going to have this upsurge of nationalist feeling and

3342
03:08:43,440 --> 03:08:45,319
you know, and all this kind of thing, and that's fine,

3343
03:08:45,399 --> 03:08:49,680
that's totally natural, but you know, how are they going

3344
03:08:49,760 --> 03:08:52,719
to look at the German minority over in the West

3345
03:08:52,840 --> 03:08:57,559
and it wasn't necessarily good. Same with Czechoslovakia and other places.

3346
03:08:57,639 --> 03:08:59,799
And so eventually, like the Germans got to the point

3347
03:08:59,799 --> 03:09:01,559
of like we got to we got to get these

3348
03:09:01,600 --> 03:09:05,440
people back. And I mean that's exactly what happened with Russia.

3349
03:09:05,600 --> 03:09:09,079
You know, even Boris Yeltsen, our total you know, just

3350
03:09:09,200 --> 03:09:13,920
puppet throughout the nineties, Like even the very very early

3351
03:09:14,040 --> 03:09:16,920
nighties when we were trying to negotiate the withdrawal of

3352
03:09:17,239 --> 03:09:22,079
Russian forces from Estonia and Latvia things like that. You know,

3353
03:09:22,399 --> 03:09:25,680
even Yeltsen, who again we controlled like a like a marionette,

3354
03:09:26,799 --> 03:09:29,520
was resistant. He was like, we got to wait until

3355
03:09:29,600 --> 03:09:32,799
I can verify that the Russian people who live over there,

3356
03:09:32,840 --> 03:09:35,440
who woke up one day and now they're foreigners in

3357
03:09:35,799 --> 03:09:38,840
minorities in a foreign country. I got to make sure

3358
03:09:38,840 --> 03:09:41,479
that they're okay and that they're going to be treated okay.

3359
03:09:42,120 --> 03:09:44,840
And from the beginning, I mean there were signs of trouble,

3360
03:09:45,040 --> 03:09:47,440
you know, and in almost all of these countries, you know,

3361
03:09:47,600 --> 03:09:51,559
in Estonia, for example, they started passing citizenship laws that

3362
03:09:51,639 --> 03:09:54,680
made it very very difficult for like native Russian speakers

3363
03:09:55,440 --> 03:09:58,120
and ethnic Russians to get citizenship, and I think to

3364
03:09:58,159 --> 03:10:01,520
this day there's a large percent the Russian population still

3365
03:10:01,559 --> 03:10:04,639
can't vote or anything like that. You can say that's like,

3366
03:10:05,319 --> 03:10:08,879
you know, sort of sort of a that's maybe a

3367
03:10:08,920 --> 03:10:12,399
bit of a minor inconvenience. But when you look at

3368
03:10:12,440 --> 03:10:15,000
what's happening in Ukraine and what's been going on since

3369
03:10:15,440 --> 03:10:18,520
twenty fourteen into a certain degree since two thousand and four,

3370
03:10:20,600 --> 03:10:22,360
you know, you can see why Yelsen would have been

3371
03:10:22,360 --> 03:10:26,360
concerned and putin finally, now that Russia's back on its

3372
03:10:26,360 --> 03:10:31,239
feet and able to actually do something, has has done

3373
03:10:31,319 --> 03:10:35,000
something because they never stopped considering those Russians their responsibility

3374
03:10:35,000 --> 03:10:40,879
and their people, you know, and rather than rather than

3375
03:10:41,319 --> 03:10:45,760
respect that and understand how you know, a country might

3376
03:10:45,799 --> 03:10:49,559
feel about that, we've sort of used those people as

3377
03:10:49,600 --> 03:10:55,280
foils to to you know, drive up the intensity of

3378
03:10:55,760 --> 03:11:01,840
nationalist feelings in the post Soviet countries and to direct

3379
03:11:01,840 --> 03:11:05,399
them against Russia, you know. And you read about this

3380
03:11:05,520 --> 03:11:08,159
in like in two thousand and four during the Orange Revolution,

3381
03:11:10,360 --> 03:11:14,799
which obviously we had a hand in as well. Before that,

3382
03:11:14,879 --> 03:11:16,840
you go back even two thousand and three and you

3383
03:11:16,840 --> 03:11:19,920
look at Poles in even western Ukraine, you look at

3384
03:11:19,920 --> 03:11:23,200
Poles about how people feel about Russia and Russians, and

3385
03:11:23,239 --> 03:11:29,399
it's fine, it's you know, a large majorities totally approve there.

3386
03:11:29,959 --> 03:11:33,840
Everything good. Two thousand and four comes along and you're

3387
03:11:33,840 --> 03:11:35,559
gonna have a revolution like that, you got to have

3388
03:11:35,600 --> 03:11:37,760
some energy to drive it. And where's that going to

3389
03:11:37,840 --> 03:11:39,680
come from? And you start to see all of these

3390
03:11:40,040 --> 03:11:44,760
NGO funded and led media outlets that popped up and

3391
03:11:44,879 --> 03:11:48,079
everything else start putting out a lot of propaganda demonizing

3392
03:11:48,079 --> 03:11:51,360
the Russian people, calling them the problem in Ukraine and

3393
03:11:51,399 --> 03:11:53,799
they're the reason we're having these issues and so forth,

3394
03:11:54,360 --> 03:11:56,879
and that really started to pick up. And you know,

3395
03:11:57,200 --> 03:12:02,680
now twenty twenty four years later, you know the kids

3396
03:12:02,719 --> 03:12:07,200
who were who were in elementary school when that started happening,

3397
03:12:07,239 --> 03:12:11,520
that change in attitude and approach started happening. You know,

3398
03:12:11,680 --> 03:12:14,600
they're the guys who joined as of battalion later on.

3399
03:12:15,040 --> 03:12:19,680
And yeah, it's it's it's you know, it's not good.

3400
03:12:19,840 --> 03:12:23,239
I mean, you know. And the thing is, actually, you can

3401
03:12:23,280 --> 03:12:25,079
go ahead and redirect this because I'll keep.

3402
03:12:24,920 --> 03:12:27,959
Speaker 1: Going, Okay, well, let's go back to the nineties. Then,

3403
03:12:29,639 --> 03:12:32,159
to me, everything I've read about what was happening there,

3404
03:12:32,239 --> 03:12:36,760
it was basically a looting operation Okay, so now this

3405
03:12:37,200 --> 03:12:43,239
empire falls essentially no one's in charge except the oligarchs,

3406
03:12:43,760 --> 03:12:48,600
and they're just looting. And to the point, I know,

3407
03:12:48,639 --> 03:12:51,120
I was reading about ninety four and ninety five, people

3408
03:12:51,159 --> 03:12:56,280
are buying stuff with coupons. Their money isn't even in existence,

3409
03:12:56,840 --> 03:13:00,600
and basically all of the wealth is being than out

3410
03:13:00,639 --> 03:13:04,040
of the country. That's what you understand, right.

3411
03:13:04,520 --> 03:13:08,120
Speaker 2: One hundred Yeah, and that was happening in Ukraine as well,

3412
03:13:08,159 --> 03:13:11,559
by the way, And the difference between the two countries is,

3413
03:13:11,719 --> 03:13:15,159
you know, Russia got its putin and Ukraine never got

3414
03:13:15,159 --> 03:13:19,959
its putin, and so those oligarchs still run the country.

3415
03:13:20,079 --> 03:13:22,200
You know, they were running it when the war started,

3416
03:13:22,200 --> 03:13:24,239
they were running it when might on happen. They're still

3417
03:13:24,360 --> 03:13:26,639
running it now, although a lot of them, you know,

3418
03:13:26,840 --> 03:13:29,559
the bulk of their wealth and assets were tied up

3419
03:13:29,600 --> 03:13:32,360
in the industrial East that is now controlled by Russia.

3420
03:13:32,520 --> 03:13:35,399
So you know, that's probably one of the reasons they're

3421
03:13:35,600 --> 03:13:38,200
continuing to feed their young men into the wood chipper,

3422
03:13:38,799 --> 03:13:41,280
even past the point where it makes much sense to

3423
03:13:41,280 --> 03:13:45,639
any outsiders. But yeah, absolutely, and I mean, you know,

3424
03:13:45,680 --> 03:13:47,840
you can kind of see how see it working when

3425
03:13:47,920 --> 03:13:50,440
in this there's another here's Another parallel the Germany in

3426
03:13:50,479 --> 03:13:54,399
the twenties is you know, people who were in Russia

3427
03:13:54,440 --> 03:14:00,319
in Ukraine who had access to you know, like you

3428
03:14:01,000 --> 03:14:04,399
if you had access to a foreign financial institution that

3429
03:14:04,520 --> 03:14:07,799
was willing to back you, I mean, you know, you

3430
03:14:07,879 --> 03:14:09,879
could buy up the whole country. It literally got to

3431
03:14:09,879 --> 03:14:13,280
that point where, you know, seven oligarchs in the mid

3432
03:14:13,399 --> 03:14:15,840
nineties seven just there were a bunch of them, but

3433
03:14:15,920 --> 03:14:20,280
seven oligarchs owned fifty eight percent of the entire Russian economy,

3434
03:14:20,760 --> 03:14:25,639
which is an insane number, you know, and Ukraine, you know,

3435
03:14:25,840 --> 03:14:29,680
very similar and in both of those countries, you know,

3436
03:14:30,760 --> 03:14:32,719
we don't have to go too far down this road,

3437
03:14:32,760 --> 03:14:35,200
but you know, in both of those countries, the vast

3438
03:14:35,239 --> 03:14:38,680
majority of the of the big oligarchs were all Russian

3439
03:14:38,719 --> 03:14:42,639
and Ukrainian Jews, right, which these are people who had

3440
03:14:42,680 --> 03:14:45,399
cousins and relatives in other countries and they were able

3441
03:14:45,440 --> 03:14:47,680
to sort of draw on those resources at a time

3442
03:14:48,520 --> 03:14:50,520
when there was a kind of free for all within

3443
03:14:50,600 --> 03:14:54,520
the country itself. And you know, when you have a

3444
03:14:54,559 --> 03:14:58,000
situation again where you go back to Germany where the middles,

3445
03:14:58,000 --> 03:15:01,760
respectable middle class women are having to you know, sell

3446
03:15:01,760 --> 03:15:06,920
their bodies to put food on their table, and people

3447
03:15:06,959 --> 03:15:11,719
with foreign connections and foreigners themselves are not just getting rich,

3448
03:15:11,760 --> 03:15:17,000
but I mean becoming just fabulously insanely wealthy bye by

3449
03:15:17,280 --> 03:15:20,600
looting your economy. That starts to draw up a certain

3450
03:15:20,639 --> 03:15:24,600
amount of resentment. You know. It's it's very fortunate in

3451
03:15:24,639 --> 03:15:27,280
a lot of ways that you know, you haven't seen

3452
03:15:28,639 --> 03:15:31,399
so much of that in Russia and Ukraine, specifically with

3453
03:15:31,440 --> 03:15:35,120
regard to the Jews, because you know, it's something that

3454
03:15:35,159 --> 03:15:37,760
you could have seen happening. You know, like in Russia,

3455
03:15:38,200 --> 03:15:40,719
you know, those seven oligarchs who won fifty eight percent

3456
03:15:40,840 --> 03:15:44,479
of the entire economy, six of them were Jewish. And

3457
03:15:44,559 --> 03:15:48,719
when Putin came along and sat the oligarchs down and

3458
03:15:48,799 --> 03:15:51,200
told them that you know, look, you guys are going

3459
03:15:51,280 --> 03:15:53,600
to stay billionaires. You're going to keep your businesses, you're

3460
03:15:53,600 --> 03:15:57,319
going to do all these things, but you're not part

3461
03:15:57,360 --> 03:16:01,719
of politics anymore. Like that's not yourusinessman, and that's it. Uh.

3462
03:16:01,959 --> 03:16:05,639
And if you are okay with that, then we're friends

3463
03:16:06,200 --> 03:16:08,600
and you're rich. If you're not okay with that, then

3464
03:16:08,600 --> 03:16:11,239
you're gonna have a problem with me. And the ones

3465
03:16:11,280 --> 03:16:13,520
who fled the country to New York. In London, in

3466
03:16:13,559 --> 03:16:18,719
Tel Aviv were primarily those non Russian oligarchs, and you know,

3467
03:16:18,840 --> 03:16:22,639
it's a it's it kind of goes to you think

3468
03:16:22,639 --> 03:16:25,680
about somebody like Bill Browder. You know, there's a guy

3469
03:16:25,719 --> 03:16:28,920
who was working with Sergei Magnitsky, the biggest to want

3470
03:16:28,959 --> 03:16:34,120
to talk about, like the biggest scam. Just it's mind blowing,

3471
03:16:34,200 --> 03:16:37,040
like how well this operation is worked because that guy,

3472
03:16:38,040 --> 03:16:40,360
that guy was a straight up criminal stealing from the

3473
03:16:40,399 --> 03:16:45,000
Russian government and Sergai Magnitsky was his accountant who was

3474
03:16:45,040 --> 03:16:49,040
helping him do that. I don't you know, the conditions

3475
03:16:49,040 --> 03:16:53,360
in Russian prisons are probably bad, and you know it's

3476
03:16:53,360 --> 03:16:55,600
not good that Magnitsky goes in there and ends up

3477
03:16:55,639 --> 03:17:02,200
dying of you know, sort of you say negligence, but

3478
03:17:02,520 --> 03:17:04,600
you know, who am I to talk when you look

3479
03:17:04,639 --> 03:17:07,200
at the condition of our prisons and you know the

3480
03:17:07,200 --> 03:17:10,840
conditions we throw people into. So but the point is,

3481
03:17:10,920 --> 03:17:13,879
like you know that Browder was one of these guys.

3482
03:17:13,920 --> 03:17:17,399
You know, people descended on that country like vultures, and

3483
03:17:17,440 --> 03:17:19,760
they went and they found local agents that they could

3484
03:17:19,840 --> 03:17:23,360
work with, people who were happy to exploit everyone around

3485
03:17:23,440 --> 03:17:26,879
them and do this, and you know, whoever they could

3486
03:17:26,879 --> 03:17:29,639
find was the most unscrupulous, you know, people around. It

3487
03:17:29,680 --> 03:17:32,479
was the most ruthless people around. You know, there's people

3488
03:17:32,639 --> 03:17:36,680
like these oligarch guys like Kotarkovsky, who you know is

3489
03:17:36,719 --> 03:17:39,719
held up as sort of some type of a human

3490
03:17:39,840 --> 03:17:44,520
rights icon, a dissident. That guy is a gangster who

3491
03:17:45,000 --> 03:17:47,719
if he had you know, lived the life he led

3492
03:17:47,719 --> 03:17:51,079
in the nineties in Texas instead of Russia, they'd have

3493
03:17:51,079 --> 03:17:53,399
put him in the gas chamber, you know, he would

3494
03:17:53,399 --> 03:17:56,520
he would have gotten the death penalty for that. And

3495
03:17:58,639 --> 03:18:01,760
you know, but it was a great gravy train. I mean,

3496
03:18:01,760 --> 03:18:05,000
you have like a giant, giant country with resources galore,

3497
03:18:05,600 --> 03:18:09,639
and every big financial institution across the West is just

3498
03:18:09,719 --> 03:18:13,479
making huge amounts of money, you know, pulling that wealth

3499
03:18:13,520 --> 03:18:16,920
out of the country. And in one country, you know,

3500
03:18:16,959 --> 03:18:18,639
a guy stepped in who put a stop to that.

3501
03:18:19,639 --> 03:18:22,200
Ukraine is what Russia would have looked like if Putin

3502
03:18:22,280 --> 03:18:25,000
never came along and the entire place was still I mean,

3503
03:18:25,000 --> 03:18:28,079
you look at like the people who were appointed as

3504
03:18:29,319 --> 03:18:32,719
governors of the different provinces in Ukraine after the Maidan Revolution.

3505
03:18:32,840 --> 03:18:34,959
There was a whole bunch of the oligarchs, you know,

3506
03:18:35,079 --> 03:18:37,319
often in control of the zones where a lot of

3507
03:18:37,319 --> 03:18:40,559
their particular industries were, you know, the rest were like

3508
03:18:40,680 --> 03:18:46,719
US State Department assets like Sakishvili and stuff. But yeah,

3509
03:18:46,799 --> 03:18:48,959
I mean, you know, Putin cut the gravy train off

3510
03:18:49,200 --> 03:18:52,719
and that was his great sin, and we've not forgiven

3511
03:18:52,760 --> 03:18:57,399
him for it. And you know, I think we had

3512
03:18:57,440 --> 03:19:00,280
this pipe dream, people like Victorian Newland had this pipe

3513
03:19:00,360 --> 03:19:04,920
dream that maybe we could we could we could open

3514
03:19:04,959 --> 03:19:07,440
them back up and maybe bring them back down a

3515
03:19:07,520 --> 03:19:09,360
notch or two so that we could we could get

3516
03:19:09,399 --> 03:19:14,319
the gravy train flowing again. Uh. But you know, it's

3517
03:19:14,360 --> 03:19:16,680
a very like like the people in Russia. They remember

3518
03:19:16,719 --> 03:19:19,920
what the nineties were like. They remember what it was like,

3519
03:19:20,000 --> 03:19:22,079
and their parents at least remember what it was like.

3520
03:19:22,280 --> 03:19:26,600
And they know that whether they there's you know, whether

3521
03:19:26,639 --> 03:19:29,120
they agree with the Ukraine War, whether they like Putin

3522
03:19:29,280 --> 03:19:32,079
or anything like that, what they know is ever since

3523
03:19:32,120 --> 03:19:35,399
Putin came along, the way things were in the nineties,

3524
03:19:35,399 --> 03:19:37,559
it's not like that anymore, you know, And they can

3525
03:19:37,600 --> 03:19:41,239
live normal lives in their country, and you know, those

3526
03:19:41,280 --> 03:19:43,319
people are going to stick by their leader when that's

3527
03:19:43,360 --> 03:19:47,319
the case, you know, because they know the downside. And uh,

3528
03:19:47,760 --> 03:19:50,799
you know, especially as time has gone on, and our

3529
03:19:51,799 --> 03:19:54,719
belligerence toward them and really are I mean our hatred

3530
03:19:54,799 --> 03:19:58,040
towards them, you know, And like we see things over

3531
03:19:58,079 --> 03:20:00,120
here that sort of go in and out of the news,

3532
03:20:00,159 --> 03:20:05,319
like when you know, some Russian tennis stars getting banned

3533
03:20:05,360 --> 03:20:09,719
from tennis tournaments and you know, Dostevsky's getting pulled from

3534
03:20:09,760 --> 03:20:12,159
the curriculum of some Harvard class or something like. We

3535
03:20:12,159 --> 03:20:14,360
see that and it's like, oh, it's so stupid and whatever.

3536
03:20:14,760 --> 03:20:17,040
That stuff is plastered on the six o'clock news in

3537
03:20:17,120 --> 03:20:20,479
Russia and everybody sees it and they think this is crazy.

3538
03:20:20,559 --> 03:20:24,920
These people are crazy, like they really hate us and

3539
03:20:26,479 --> 03:20:29,399
seek our destruction. And you know, and again I think

3540
03:20:29,440 --> 03:20:34,440
that most Americans don't naturally feel that way. But the

3541
03:20:34,520 --> 03:20:38,239
people the group who do feel that way, you know,

3542
03:20:38,319 --> 03:20:41,120
they're very well organized, very well funded, and they know

3543
03:20:41,159 --> 03:20:41,760
what they're doing.

3544
03:20:43,159 --> 03:20:45,399
Speaker 1: So it's a safe to say that those people who

3545
03:20:46,200 --> 03:20:48,959
the gravy Train stopped, that putin put a stop to

3546
03:20:49,000 --> 03:20:55,879
the gravy train in the nineties were probably behind everything

3547
03:20:55,920 --> 03:20:58,719
that was happening in twenty thirteen, in twenty fourteen.

3548
03:21:00,920 --> 03:21:05,040
Speaker 2: You know, they supported it, you know, financially, they backed

3549
03:21:05,040 --> 03:21:08,000
the think tanks that employ the people like Victoria Newland

3550
03:21:08,000 --> 03:21:10,479
when they are out of government, and they exert a

3551
03:21:10,479 --> 03:21:13,399
lot of influence in that sense, Like I don't think

3552
03:21:13,399 --> 03:21:16,719
that they're you know that that that you know, Roman

3553
03:21:16,760 --> 03:21:20,399
Abramovich is meeting with the president or the Prime Minister

3554
03:21:20,440 --> 03:21:23,600
of England and sort of giving him marching orders or

3555
03:21:23,639 --> 03:21:26,239
anything like that, but they exert the influence that they have.

3556
03:21:27,719 --> 03:21:31,440
And given the fact that the US and NATO sort

3557
03:21:31,440 --> 03:21:36,319
of foreign policy approach or Eastern Europe Russia approach, it's

3558
03:21:36,360 --> 03:21:38,920
kind of already geared in that direction. Like really, they're

3559
03:21:38,959 --> 03:21:41,040
just giving it sort of an extra push. You know,

3560
03:21:41,559 --> 03:21:44,920
it doesn't need much more of a push, and but

3561
03:21:44,920 --> 03:21:46,719
it's definitely a part of it. I mean, you're talking

3562
03:21:46,719 --> 03:21:50,760
about hundreds of billions of dollars, maybe trillions of dollars

3563
03:21:51,000 --> 03:21:53,159
they got pulled out of that country. They got pulled

3564
03:21:53,200 --> 03:21:55,520
out of Russia. I mean, we hear about the big

3565
03:21:55,559 --> 03:21:59,000
ones like Abramovic who left the country with forty billion

3566
03:21:59,040 --> 03:22:01,600
dollars or whatever, but they were hundreds of these people ultimately,

3567
03:22:01,799 --> 03:22:06,280
and you know, and that's not counting like the money

3568
03:22:06,280 --> 03:22:09,280
that got siphoned out to Western financial institutions as all

3569
03:22:09,319 --> 03:22:10,879
this was going on. So, I mean, you're talking about

3570
03:22:10,920 --> 03:22:14,120
a massive chunk of the Russian economy that was just

3571
03:22:14,159 --> 03:22:21,079
straight up looted. And you know, that's a it's a

3572
03:22:21,120 --> 03:22:23,120
hard thing to give up, you know. And when you

3573
03:22:23,159 --> 03:22:24,840
have a lot of in when when you're on that

3574
03:22:24,879 --> 03:22:27,200
gravy train and you've got a lot of influence with

3575
03:22:27,239 --> 03:22:31,959
the United States government, you're gonna try to pull that

3576
03:22:32,079 --> 03:22:34,319
lever to get it to act on your behalf. You know,

3577
03:22:34,360 --> 03:22:35,360
It's always been that way.

3578
03:22:36,879 --> 03:22:43,639
Speaker 1: So the narrative when the Russia, when Russian invaded Ukraine,

3579
03:22:43,879 --> 03:22:46,360
was one of the narratives was that in the Donbas

3580
03:22:46,479 --> 03:22:53,559
region ethnic Russians had been slaughtered since twenty fourteen. Here

3581
03:22:53,680 --> 03:22:58,280
numbers anywhere from twelve thousands to thirty two thousand. Is

3582
03:22:59,520 --> 03:23:01,040
what do you know about that? I mean, how is

3583
03:23:01,079 --> 03:23:04,000
it happening? Were they bombing them? Were what was going on?

3584
03:23:04,719 --> 03:23:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of artillery, mortars, things like that, primarily

3585
03:23:08,360 --> 03:23:11,520
as far as I know, aircraft weren't weren't primarily doing it,

3586
03:23:12,040 --> 03:23:15,120
but but yeah, I mean they were just sort of

3587
03:23:15,120 --> 03:23:19,920
indiscriminately targeting civilian areas and laughing about it. You know,

3588
03:23:20,000 --> 03:23:23,799
you had Poroshenko, who you know, gave that speech, and

3589
03:23:23,840 --> 03:23:26,520
he was bragging about how Russian children are going to

3590
03:23:26,520 --> 03:23:29,159
be hiding in basements or down Bass children are going

3591
03:23:29,239 --> 03:23:31,959
to be hiding in basements, you know, to avoid our

3592
03:23:32,200 --> 03:23:34,760
artillery while our kids are going to eat breakfast and

3593
03:23:34,799 --> 03:23:38,479
go to school. And it's just you know that we

3594
03:23:38,559 --> 03:23:41,120
have a word for that. When you know Arabs do

3595
03:23:41,200 --> 03:23:45,799
it or something, it's called terrorism. And you know, if

3596
03:23:45,840 --> 03:23:49,760
you look at the immediate aftermath of the Maidan coup,

3597
03:23:50,920 --> 03:23:54,719
there was essentially a nationwide pugrom against Russians, you know,

3598
03:23:54,840 --> 03:23:59,760
against Russian speakers and by you know, again a lot

3599
03:23:59,760 --> 03:24:01,680
of the you know, I've actually read like some of

3600
03:24:01,719 --> 03:24:04,879
the memoirs of these hardcore as of types. You know,

3601
03:24:04,920 --> 03:24:07,360
there's a few of them in English, and you kind

3602
03:24:07,399 --> 03:24:09,440
of feel for these guys in a way when you

3603
03:24:09,479 --> 03:24:11,280
read them, even if you think that you know, it's

3604
03:24:11,319 --> 03:24:14,440
sad that they're you know, puppets of a regime that

3605
03:24:14,520 --> 03:24:17,120
really does not care about them or their country at all,

3606
03:24:18,760 --> 03:24:22,479
and that they're you know, they're they're they're ignorant or

3607
03:24:22,520 --> 03:24:25,360
whatever for allowing themselves to be used that way. But

3608
03:24:25,399 --> 03:24:27,920
these are you know, these are hardcore like right wing

3609
03:24:28,000 --> 03:24:32,239
patriots in their country and in the context of their lives.

3610
03:24:32,280 --> 03:24:34,040
This is the way that it makes sense for them,

3611
03:24:34,120 --> 03:24:39,520
you know. And so when when you know twenty fourteen happened,

3612
03:24:40,479 --> 03:24:42,280
I mean you you know the famous ones, you know,

3613
03:24:42,399 --> 03:24:45,040
with a few dozen people getting burned alive in the

3614
03:24:45,079 --> 03:24:49,440
trade building uh in Odessa. But that was something that

3615
03:24:49,479 --> 03:24:52,840
was happening all over the place, people getting kidnapped because

3616
03:24:53,159 --> 03:24:55,760
they were ethnic Russians who were considered, you know, politically

3617
03:24:55,799 --> 03:24:59,520
unreliable in this new regime. And you're talking about hundreds

3618
03:24:59,559 --> 03:25:03,040
or thousand of people getting kidnapped and abused and tortured

3619
03:25:03,360 --> 03:25:08,920
and killed. And again we sort of, you know, we

3620
03:25:09,000 --> 03:25:11,000
sort of look at that. If it gets mentioned at

3621
03:25:11,040 --> 03:25:13,879
all over here, it sort of gets mentioned as like, well, yeah,

3622
03:25:13,959 --> 03:25:16,879
there was a violent there was a revolution, and revolutions

3623
03:25:16,879 --> 03:25:20,440
are crazy and bad things happened, and you know in

3624
03:25:20,479 --> 03:25:24,239
any revolution, and that's true enough. But you know, this

3625
03:25:24,440 --> 03:25:30,000
is if if you look at that from the Russian perspective,

3626
03:25:30,559 --> 03:25:33,000
you know, from the perspective I was talking about earlier wherever,

3627
03:25:33,040 --> 03:25:37,319
since the early nineties, somebody like Yeltsin was expressing concern

3628
03:25:37,479 --> 03:25:40,120
over the fate of ethnic Russians in these countries, whether

3629
03:25:40,159 --> 03:25:42,440
the nationalist fervor was going to get out of control

3630
03:25:42,520 --> 03:25:46,959
and make their lives too hard, and just continually expressing

3631
03:25:46,959 --> 03:25:51,440
concern about that over the years, and then watching that happen,

3632
03:25:51,600 --> 03:25:56,239
watching all of those kidnappings and murders happen, watching down

3633
03:25:56,319 --> 03:26:01,360
Bass neighborhoods get get you know, bombarded by our artillery.

3634
03:26:01,479 --> 03:26:04,440
It's gonna be very provocative, you know, and especially when

3635
03:26:04,479 --> 03:26:09,799
you have larger geopolitical reasons to want to draw a

3636
03:26:09,799 --> 03:26:13,680
line in the sand, you know, which which obviously was

3637
03:26:13,840 --> 03:26:16,879
you know, was probably like the stuff I just talked

3638
03:26:16,879 --> 03:26:19,440
about the ethnic Russians. I mean that probably gave the uh,

3639
03:26:20,120 --> 03:26:23,200
you know, the sort of emotional impulse and the it

3640
03:26:23,319 --> 03:26:26,440
sort of drives the enthusiasm for the war effort and

3641
03:26:26,479 --> 03:26:29,840
the cohesion in Russia maybe to a large degree. But

3642
03:26:29,920 --> 03:26:32,239
I mean, make no mistake, They're in this war because

3643
03:26:32,280 --> 03:26:36,479
they felt, from a geopolitical standpoint like they had no choice,

3644
03:26:36,680 --> 03:26:39,520
and you know, and I think we knew that, and

3645
03:26:39,559 --> 03:26:42,440
I think we put them in that position on purpose.

3646
03:26:44,239 --> 03:26:44,319
Speaker 1: It.

3647
03:26:44,479 --> 03:26:48,840
Speaker 2: You know, I do think that that probably we thought

3648
03:26:49,200 --> 03:26:51,920
that they would continue to back down forever because we're

3649
03:26:51,959 --> 03:26:55,639
America and they won't. Dare we overestimated our own capability

3650
03:26:55,680 --> 03:26:59,239
to cripple them and underestimated their capability to sustain a war.

3651
03:27:01,559 --> 03:27:04,000
But we knew we were putting him in that position.

3652
03:27:04,120 --> 03:27:06,360
You know, the current CIA director was the ambassador to

3653
03:27:06,399 --> 03:27:09,600
Russia back in two thousand and eight, and in January

3654
03:27:09,600 --> 03:27:11,639
of two thousand and eight he wrote this, you know,

3655
03:27:11,760 --> 03:27:15,040
kind of famous now memo back to Condoleeza Rice, who

3656
03:27:15,040 --> 03:27:17,920
was Secretary of State at the time, called neet means

3657
03:27:18,000 --> 03:27:22,440
net and in it he, I mean, it's so it's uncanny,

3658
03:27:22,520 --> 03:27:25,120
like how specific he is about the whole thing. He says, Look,

3659
03:27:25,719 --> 03:27:29,120
I'm over here talking not just forget putin, I'm talking

3660
03:27:29,159 --> 03:27:33,719
to everybody in the upper echelons of Russian power, military people, civilians.

3661
03:27:34,200 --> 03:27:39,840
It doesn't matter. They are unanimous that. You know, they

3662
03:27:39,879 --> 03:27:42,639
put up with NATO expansion in the Baltics and these

3663
03:27:42,680 --> 03:27:44,920
other places, you know, because they had no choice because

3664
03:27:44,920 --> 03:27:49,399
they couldn't do anything about it. But that expanding NATO

3665
03:27:49,520 --> 03:27:53,680
into Ukraine and expanding it into Georgia are absolute red

3666
03:27:53,719 --> 03:27:57,040
lines that they just they simply cannot tolerate and they

3667
03:27:57,079 --> 03:27:59,680
will be forced to act. And then he said specifically,

3668
03:27:59,680 --> 03:28:05,879
he said they're concerned in Ukraine, is that if like

3669
03:28:05,879 --> 03:28:08,559
like our movement to try to to try to push

3670
03:28:08,600 --> 03:28:11,799
that idea and try to get them in there would

3671
03:28:11,879 --> 03:28:14,200
lead to tension between the Russian ethnic Russians in the

3672
03:28:14,280 --> 03:28:18,319
east and the Ukrainians in the west who you know,

3673
03:28:18,440 --> 03:28:21,159
as that debate over whether they should join NATO or

3674
03:28:21,159 --> 03:28:24,280
could they join NATO and everything heat it up, that

3675
03:28:24,319 --> 03:28:26,600
it would lead to conflict between those two peoples and

3676
03:28:26,639 --> 03:28:30,680
possibly even civil war and that and this is remarkable,

3677
03:28:30,680 --> 03:28:33,719
he said, and that Russia would have to decide whether

3678
03:28:33,840 --> 03:28:37,120
or not to intervene, which is a decision they do

3679
03:28:37,280 --> 03:28:40,760
not want to have to face. And I mean, so

3680
03:28:41,760 --> 03:28:44,079
the State departments kind of lesa. Rice gets that memo

3681
03:28:44,200 --> 03:28:47,840
from her ambassador to Russia, and three months later, in

3682
03:28:47,959 --> 03:28:51,159
March of that same year, just three months later, at

3683
03:28:51,159 --> 03:28:53,639
the NATO summit, we come out and say, yeah, Ukraine

3684
03:28:53,680 --> 03:28:57,920
and Georgia are going to join NATO. And so you know,

3685
03:28:58,239 --> 03:29:03,959
it didn't take long obviously before the president in Georgia

3686
03:29:04,159 --> 03:29:07,239
saka's Vili, because we had the short Georgia War over there.

3687
03:29:07,600 --> 03:29:09,280
You know, sakes Vili is a guy who you know,

3688
03:29:09,319 --> 03:29:12,440
he's educated in the United States. Literally like was over

3689
03:29:14,280 --> 03:29:16,559
like as part of a State Department program you know,

3690
03:29:16,600 --> 03:29:19,280
and he's he's a Georgian. But for some reason after

3691
03:29:19,319 --> 03:29:21,319
the Midon coup, he got put in charge of the

3692
03:29:21,319 --> 03:29:25,319
Odessa Oblast in Ukraine as the governor there. For nobody

3693
03:29:25,440 --> 03:29:29,360
can really explain why, but everything everybody knows why. And so,

3694
03:29:29,959 --> 03:29:32,479
you know, Georgia had a problem when it came to

3695
03:29:33,159 --> 03:29:35,600
joining NATO, which is, you can't join NATO if you

3696
03:29:35,600 --> 03:29:39,920
have an ongoing territorial dispute, because it essentially would immediately

3697
03:29:39,959 --> 03:29:42,440
require NATO to get involved with that territorial disview. So

3698
03:29:42,440 --> 03:29:44,600
you have to clear that up first. And he had

3699
03:29:45,040 --> 03:29:49,000
that problem up in Ostya and the northern region of

3700
03:29:49,000 --> 03:29:51,280
his country that had been sort of in an uneasy

3701
03:29:51,360 --> 03:29:55,239
but steady peace since the early nineties where they sort

3702
03:29:55,239 --> 03:29:57,799
of governed themselves with some autonomy and there were peacekeepers

3703
03:29:57,799 --> 03:30:00,520
in there and stuff, and it was fun. You know,

3704
03:30:00,920 --> 03:30:05,120
it wasn't resolved, but it was fine, and he needed

3705
03:30:05,120 --> 03:30:06,920
to clear that up, and so he moved to clear

3706
03:30:06,920 --> 03:30:10,600
it up. And so the Russians moved in and kicked

3707
03:30:10,600 --> 03:30:12,959
their ass and pushed them back. And you know, you

3708
03:30:13,000 --> 03:30:17,079
had John McCain like telling us like he was literally

3709
03:30:17,159 --> 03:30:21,000
John McCain was calling for us to to bomb the

3710
03:30:21,040 --> 03:30:23,719
tunnels that the Russians were driving their tanks and their

3711
03:30:23,799 --> 03:30:26,680
armored vehicles through, and like just attack the Russians directly,

3712
03:30:26,879 --> 03:30:31,719
Just madman for for what, you know, to bring Georgia

3713
03:30:31,840 --> 03:30:37,239
into Ukraine something that doesn't improve or rather to bring

3714
03:30:37,280 --> 03:30:41,760
Georgia into NATO, something that doesn't improve NATO's fighting ability,

3715
03:30:41,799 --> 03:30:45,520
its ability to extend nothing like that. Like all Georgia

3716
03:30:45,760 --> 03:30:48,360
would be to NATO is an out of the way

3717
03:30:49,079 --> 03:30:54,000
new obligation that really didn't provide any kind of countervailing

3718
03:30:54,040 --> 03:30:56,920
benefits to NATO itself. And you know, it kind of

3719
03:30:57,000 --> 03:30:59,559
shows what the purpose of a lot of this NATO

3720
03:30:59,600 --> 03:31:04,200
expansion is. And you know, if Georgia, like Georgia is

3721
03:31:04,239 --> 03:31:09,399
not anywhere near the North Atlantic. You know, I asked

3722
03:31:09,440 --> 03:31:11,280
a question when I was I was talking to a

3723
03:31:11,399 --> 03:31:14,760
Lavian guy I know who's very very anti Russian, pro Ukrainian,

3724
03:31:16,040 --> 03:31:19,040
and he denied that you know this, the NATO expansion

3725
03:31:19,079 --> 03:31:21,920
was sort of targeting Russia, that it was directed at Russia,

3726
03:31:22,319 --> 03:31:25,360
something that I think is sort of self evidently silly.

3727
03:31:25,440 --> 03:31:27,479
But I said, why don't why aren't we trying to

3728
03:31:27,479 --> 03:31:33,200
bring uh Brazil into NATO. Brazil's at least on the Atlantic,

3729
03:31:33,280 --> 03:31:35,639
you know, but we're trying to bring Georgia INTONATO. Why

3730
03:31:35,719 --> 03:31:37,840
is that, like, why is it only countries that are

3731
03:31:37,840 --> 03:31:41,079
pushing in and surrounding this one country? And I think

3732
03:31:41,079 --> 03:31:45,879
the you know, the answer is pretty obvious. And you know,

3733
03:31:46,280 --> 03:31:49,639
a certain point, you know, a leader of a country

3734
03:31:49,760 --> 03:31:55,280
has to has to you know, you come to a

3735
03:31:55,520 --> 03:31:59,840
Meersheimer talks about this right where you can you know,

3736
03:32:00,959 --> 03:32:05,440
you can believe like Vladimir Putin can believe that the

3737
03:32:05,559 --> 03:32:08,799
United States and NATO don't want to attack Russia, that

3738
03:32:08,840 --> 03:32:12,200
they can expand into Ukraine and Georgia and everywhere else.

3739
03:32:12,280 --> 03:32:16,000
And that does not mean and probably and almost certainly

3740
03:32:16,040 --> 03:32:18,920
doesn't mean that one day they're going to wake up

3741
03:32:18,920 --> 03:32:21,040
and it's going to be June nineteen forty one again

3742
03:32:21,079 --> 03:32:24,719
in American tanks are just Russian Like, he doesn't think

3743
03:32:24,760 --> 03:32:29,319
that's going to happen, but he's responsible for national security

3744
03:32:29,319 --> 03:32:31,959
in Russia. And so unless he can say for sure

3745
03:32:32,040 --> 03:32:34,360
that's not going to happen, you know, you have to

3746
03:32:34,360 --> 03:32:37,920
take steps to protect yourself. And we just haven't respected

3747
03:32:37,959 --> 03:32:43,079
that at all. You know, we've treated Russia like like

3748
03:32:43,159 --> 03:32:45,680
al Qaeda or something ever since you know, the mid

3749
03:32:45,680 --> 03:32:49,440
two thousands, as if none of their concerns nothing, they

3750
03:32:49,479 --> 03:32:52,680
say nothing, they worry, none of those have any legitimacy,

3751
03:32:52,719 --> 03:32:56,639
Like we're not concerned with what isis' you know, grievances are,

3752
03:32:56,760 --> 03:33:00,600
what their security concerns are. Just kill them that right,

3753
03:33:00,879 --> 03:33:03,079
And we treated Russia that way like just they have

3754
03:33:03,200 --> 03:33:07,360
no legitimate interests or concerns whatsoever. And look, if you

3755
03:33:07,399 --> 03:33:10,280
treat a country that's been around for a thousand years

3756
03:33:10,399 --> 03:33:15,280
and has, you know, a strong sort of cultural base

3757
03:33:15,399 --> 03:33:17,920
to build a sense of strong nationalism out of, if

3758
03:33:17,920 --> 03:33:21,600
it comes down to it, eventually they're gonna buck. And

3759
03:33:21,920 --> 03:33:26,280
you know, Russia bucked and and again hopefully with the

3760
03:33:27,079 --> 03:33:30,079
with the resignation of Victoria Newland, we maybe coming to

3761
03:33:30,159 --> 03:33:32,440
the end of at least this current cycle of that.

3762
03:33:33,520 --> 03:33:42,079
Speaker 1: Obama sent Ukraine money, Trump sent money and guns. Why

3763
03:33:42,319 --> 03:33:43,959
why do you think Putin waited so long?

3764
03:33:46,559 --> 03:33:50,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean, look, part of it is that Putin,

3765
03:33:51,399 --> 03:33:56,399
I think it's clear that he genuinely wanted to find

3766
03:33:56,399 --> 03:33:59,639
a peaceful resolution of this. You know, the Russians were

3767
03:34:01,319 --> 03:34:04,239
coming to the table to negotiate the Minsk agreements in

3768
03:34:04,319 --> 03:34:07,280
good faith. You know, let's work something out where like

3769
03:34:07,399 --> 03:34:12,159
look at the beginning of the war. The Russian military

3770
03:34:12,200 --> 03:34:15,319
did move in like for a while in twenty fourteen fifteen,

3771
03:34:15,600 --> 03:34:19,000
and they routed the disorganized Ukrainian forces at the time,

3772
03:34:19,079 --> 03:34:20,799
and they could have pushed them back, but they didn't,

3773
03:34:21,399 --> 03:34:24,600
you know, they stopped their progress and then they went

3774
03:34:24,639 --> 03:34:26,799
back to Russia, you know, other than some special forces

3775
03:34:26,799 --> 03:34:31,559
little green men or whatever. And when you know, they

3776
03:34:31,760 --> 03:34:35,479
annexed Crimea, and the leaders in the separatist area of

3777
03:34:35,559 --> 03:34:38,719
don Bass, they said, well, do us like we do

3778
03:34:38,799 --> 03:34:41,159
us next, you know, we want to be annexed to Russia.

3779
03:34:41,200 --> 03:34:43,760
And Putin said, no, you know, we did it with

3780
03:34:43,879 --> 03:34:48,520
Crimea because like that's just so strategically critical for us

3781
03:34:48,559 --> 03:34:51,600
that you know, we can't risk losing our navy base

3782
03:34:51,639 --> 03:34:55,600
and so forth. But no, he told them, no, you

3783
03:34:55,680 --> 03:34:58,559
literally had okay, like and this was what's really crazy.

3784
03:34:58,559 --> 03:35:02,479
It's a great documentary that PBS series Frontline put out

3785
03:35:02,520 --> 03:35:08,000
back in twenty fourteen. I think it's called Yeah, I

3786
03:35:08,000 --> 03:35:10,000
can't remember, but it's like a thirty five to forty

3787
03:35:10,000 --> 03:35:13,040
minute documentary about what's going on in what was going

3788
03:35:13,079 --> 03:35:16,079
on in Ukraine at the time, and it's remarkably balanced.

3789
03:35:16,120 --> 03:35:19,319
You would never see anything like this on like American media,

3790
03:35:19,440 --> 03:35:23,559
mainstream media today, it's quite balanced. And they there's a

3791
03:35:23,680 --> 03:35:29,600
scene where the reporter is in Kharkiv and you know

3792
03:35:29,639 --> 03:35:32,559
there's like an old woman and a crowd of people,

3793
03:35:32,559 --> 03:35:35,479
but like an old woman specifically who's on her knees

3794
03:35:35,680 --> 03:35:38,840
and she's crying and saying Putin, please save us, Please

3795
03:35:38,879 --> 03:35:41,840
save us from you know, from the fascists. They hate us,

3796
03:35:41,840 --> 03:35:44,000
they're going to kill us, Please save us. And so

3797
03:35:44,079 --> 03:35:47,879
those people asked Putin to annex them and protect them,

3798
03:35:47,879 --> 03:35:51,040
and he said no because he thought like that was

3799
03:35:51,079 --> 03:35:54,159
a bridge too far. And you know, with the state

3800
03:35:54,200 --> 03:35:56,440
that the Ukrainian military was in at that point, he

3801
03:35:56,479 --> 03:35:58,959
easily could have done it. There's nothing Ukraine. There were

3802
03:35:58,959 --> 03:36:02,200
a bunch of militias, you know basically at that point.

3803
03:36:02,239 --> 03:36:04,680
You know, they're totally disorganized. We hadn't trained them, we

3804
03:36:04,680 --> 03:36:06,520
hadn't armed him, anything like that. And he said no.

3805
03:36:07,559 --> 03:36:12,600
And so he spends years, you know, participating in these

3806
03:36:12,639 --> 03:36:17,280
in these min's negotiations, which would have kept the don

3807
03:36:17,360 --> 03:36:21,239
Bassist part of Ukraine, but you know, had a sort

3808
03:36:21,239 --> 03:36:25,280
of semi autonomous governance system that would allow them to

3809
03:36:25,360 --> 03:36:27,840
kind of do their own thing within the context of

3810
03:36:27,920 --> 03:36:30,879
Ukrainian government to make sure that those people were protected

3811
03:36:31,000 --> 03:36:35,719
from you know, a Ukrainian government that was was like

3812
03:36:35,920 --> 03:36:38,319
literally their parliament was full of people who had just

3813
03:36:38,440 --> 03:36:41,440
led pogroms against Russians, like all across the country. And so,

3814
03:36:43,600 --> 03:36:47,479
you know, I think he just genuinely wanted to find

3815
03:36:47,520 --> 03:36:51,600
a peaceful solution to the whole thing, maybe partly because

3816
03:36:51,600 --> 03:36:53,280
you know, I think Putin and you saw this a

3817
03:36:53,280 --> 03:36:57,559
little bit in that Tucker interview, I think he's probably

3818
03:36:57,799 --> 03:37:00,200
he seems like he's at the point now where he's

3819
03:37:00,239 --> 03:37:02,559
done with the United States, like there's nothing we can

3820
03:37:02,600 --> 03:37:05,639
say that he can trust, there's no deal we can

3821
03:37:05,680 --> 03:37:09,600
make that he would consider reliable anymore. But I think

3822
03:37:09,719 --> 03:37:13,120
long term, he does still care about his relations with

3823
03:37:13,159 --> 03:37:17,360
Europe and he's looking forward to a possible future where

3824
03:37:17,799 --> 03:37:21,680
you know, Europe is something more than just an American

3825
03:37:21,760 --> 03:37:26,319
base and he can start to repair those relations at least.

3826
03:37:26,319 --> 03:37:30,159
And so maybe he pursued the Minsk Ac courts because

3827
03:37:30,159 --> 03:37:32,079
of that. But then you know, you go through all

3828
03:37:32,120 --> 03:37:35,680
that trouble, all that trouble, and then you know, you

3829
03:37:35,719 --> 03:37:40,959
see the German Chancellor as a French official, like people

3830
03:37:40,959 --> 03:37:43,200
coming out and saying that was all that was all

3831
03:37:43,680 --> 03:37:46,479
BS like, we didn't the whole Minsk thing was just

3832
03:37:46,520 --> 03:37:48,879
to drag things out and to make sure Russia didn't

3833
03:37:48,879 --> 03:37:52,000
move in and take over, to give us time to

3834
03:37:52,040 --> 03:37:54,920
build up the Ukrainian forces and get them armed and trained.

3835
03:37:55,239 --> 03:37:58,920
And could you imagine hearing that like as a Russian official,

3836
03:37:59,680 --> 03:38:05,000
I mean mean, yeah, it's uh, because I can, and

3837
03:38:05,319 --> 03:38:08,399
it would it would pretty much permanently break you know,

3838
03:38:08,479 --> 03:38:12,200
my ability to take any any negotiation with these people

3839
03:38:12,239 --> 03:38:17,040
seriously again. And so you know, I think when he invaded,

3840
03:38:17,360 --> 03:38:22,200
it's when it became clear to him that the peaceful

3841
03:38:22,200 --> 03:38:24,520
solutions that that he had been pursuing up to that

3842
03:38:24,600 --> 03:38:27,719
point were just not going to happen. You know, if

3843
03:38:27,760 --> 03:38:32,360
you look at the week or two right before, right

3844
03:38:32,360 --> 03:38:38,760
before the invasion, from day to day to day, if

3845
03:38:38,799 --> 03:38:40,239
you look at it, you know, there's a there's a

3846
03:38:40,360 --> 03:38:45,319
UN organization over there that was monitoring the ceasefire. Right

3847
03:38:45,360 --> 03:38:48,159
they had a ceasefire where you know, you could use

3848
03:38:48,159 --> 03:38:50,799
small arms and stuff, and so the Ukrainians could do

3849
03:38:50,879 --> 03:38:54,120
counter terrorism stuff with like small arms, tactics and stuff,

3850
03:38:54,120 --> 03:38:57,399
but you couldn't use a whole range of heavy weapons, artillery,

3851
03:38:57,479 --> 03:39:00,479
and mortars and all these other things, and there were violets,

3852
03:39:00,600 --> 03:39:04,000
you know, one way and violations the other way occasionally,

3853
03:39:04,159 --> 03:39:07,840
like as like the Minska agreements were being negotiated and

3854
03:39:07,879 --> 03:39:09,959
so forth. And then in a couple of weeks just

3855
03:39:10,040 --> 03:39:13,280
prior to the invasion, you know, it goes from like

3856
03:39:14,120 --> 03:39:16,079
and they're all on one side, they're all coming from

3857
03:39:16,159 --> 03:39:20,879
the Ukrainian side, firing toward the Donbass. It goes from

3858
03:39:20,959 --> 03:39:27,120
like thirty violations, eighty violations, the next day, three hundred violations,

3859
03:39:27,159 --> 03:39:30,239
a thousand violations. I mean, they're just ramping this up.

3860
03:39:30,280 --> 03:39:34,719
And then Russia invades, and you know, the sort of

3861
03:39:34,719 --> 03:39:38,840
defenders of US policy over there will try to convince

3862
03:39:38,879 --> 03:39:42,559
me that that had nothing to do with Russia invading,

3863
03:39:43,319 --> 03:39:47,120
but you know, to me, like the default position should

3864
03:39:47,120 --> 03:39:51,799
be to assume that it did, and that you know, that,

3865
03:39:51,959 --> 03:39:55,799
along with a lot of other things, just led up

3866
03:39:55,840 --> 03:39:58,079
to a point where Russia realized that if we wait

3867
03:39:58,120 --> 03:40:02,680
another year, then they don't have to bring Ukraine into NATO.

3868
03:40:02,760 --> 03:40:05,479
They're making it a NATO country right now, right before

3869
03:40:05,520 --> 03:40:08,440
our eyes. They're not calling it that, they're not moving

3870
03:40:08,559 --> 03:40:13,120
forty thousand US troops in there yet or anything but

3871
03:40:14,399 --> 03:40:18,879
you know, they're in every other way imaginable. They're essentially

3872
03:40:18,920 --> 03:40:21,000
turning this into what it would be if it was

3873
03:40:21,040 --> 03:40:23,040
a NATO country, and they're going to get to a

3874
03:40:23,079 --> 03:40:25,479
certain point where we're not going to be able to

3875
03:40:25,479 --> 03:40:28,559
do anything about it, you know, because if it gets

3876
03:40:28,600 --> 03:40:31,760
to to a certain point and they continue to think

3877
03:40:31,799 --> 03:40:35,520
that we're just not going to act, and then, you know,

3878
03:40:35,920 --> 03:40:38,319
in a very short period of time, you know, an

3879
03:40:38,360 --> 03:40:42,399
executive order comes down and thirty thousand American troops are

3880
03:40:42,479 --> 03:40:44,959
landed in Ukraine and take up residence in a base

3881
03:40:45,000 --> 03:40:47,600
that we're calling permanent. Now Russia has to face the

3882
03:40:47,639 --> 03:40:51,399
decision of whether to invade and attack American troops. Like

3883
03:40:51,440 --> 03:40:53,760
that's a whole different ballgame, and I think he just

3884
03:40:53,799 --> 03:40:57,719
decided that we can't wait any longer. We just can't,

3885
03:40:57,840 --> 03:41:00,719
you know. And also actually around the same time, like

3886
03:41:01,079 --> 03:41:03,799
a little bit beforehand, is when you had that attempted

3887
03:41:03,840 --> 03:41:08,200
color revolution in Belarus, and that may have had something

3888
03:41:08,239 --> 03:41:10,920
to do with like him just you know, deciding like

3889
03:41:10,959 --> 03:41:13,639
these the Americans are never going to stop, Like these

3890
03:41:13,639 --> 03:41:19,280
people are just absolutely relentless, and at a certain point,

3891
03:41:19,360 --> 03:41:22,680
you just you know, there's even if you think you're

3892
03:41:22,719 --> 03:41:25,280
gonna get your ass kicked. Sometimes you have no choice

3893
03:41:25,319 --> 03:41:27,079
but to plant your feet and punch the bully in

3894
03:41:27,120 --> 03:41:27,479
the mouth.

3895
03:41:29,799 --> 03:41:35,159
Speaker 1: Oh, they're not getting their ass kicked. They're you know, unfortunately,

3896
03:41:35,280 --> 03:41:39,440
the I know that putin immediately after the invasion started

3897
03:41:39,520 --> 03:41:42,559
asking for you know, hey, let's talk about this, let's

3898
03:41:42,639 --> 03:41:46,000
let's find a piece, and it's just going on and on.

3899
03:41:46,760 --> 03:41:50,799
And I think what we found out, I don't know,

3900
03:41:50,840 --> 03:41:53,040
maybe maybe you can correct me if you think I'm

3901
03:41:53,079 --> 03:41:56,959
wrong on this is that, well, at least against the

3902
03:41:57,079 --> 03:42:02,200
Ukrainian military, the Russian military is pretty form Yeah.

3903
03:42:02,200 --> 03:42:04,399
Speaker 2: And I would even add to that a bit by

3904
03:42:04,600 --> 03:42:07,120
you know, I think a lot of people in the

3905
03:42:07,120 --> 03:42:10,479
West have this, have this idea of like, yeah, but

3906
03:42:10,520 --> 03:42:14,479
it's the Ukrainians, you know, it's just the Ukrainians. This

3907
03:42:14,559 --> 03:42:17,159
is a this is an army. Now, I mean, they're

3908
03:42:17,200 --> 03:42:19,639
they're again scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point.

3909
03:42:19,719 --> 03:42:22,479
But you know, in the in the meat of this war,

3910
03:42:23,440 --> 03:42:25,920
this was an army that was trained and equipped up

3911
03:42:25,959 --> 03:42:31,399
to NATO standards. And I would say, you know, look,

3912
03:42:32,040 --> 03:42:36,280
I think your average Ukrainian male, you know, who joins

3913
03:42:36,280 --> 03:42:41,639
the military voluntarily, that he is not a hell of

3914
03:42:41,680 --> 03:42:45,360
a lot tougher than like your average guy in France

3915
03:42:45,760 --> 03:42:49,120
or Germany or America for that matter. You're damn right.

3916
03:42:49,120 --> 03:42:51,399
Ideas like those guys are no joke. These guys are

3917
03:42:51,520 --> 03:42:55,440
are motivated, they're serious, they're well trained, they're well equipped,

3918
03:42:55,680 --> 03:42:59,360
and other than honestly, like other than the US and

3919
03:43:00,479 --> 03:43:04,520
maybe Turkey and Poland you go back to like just

3920
03:43:04,559 --> 03:43:08,040
before the war started in twenty twenty two, and Ukrainian

3921
03:43:08,079 --> 03:43:10,079
military probably would have kicked the hell out of any

3922
03:43:10,159 --> 03:43:13,719
NATO country one on one, you know, in a straight

3923
03:43:13,760 --> 03:43:17,000
up fight. I mean, this is a formidable force. And

3924
03:43:17,159 --> 03:43:19,399
you know, people talk about the difference in population, which

3925
03:43:19,440 --> 03:43:21,479
obviously is coming into play at this point. But at

3926
03:43:21,520 --> 03:43:24,399
the same time, you know, Russia doesn't look at Ukraine

3927
03:43:24,440 --> 03:43:26,840
and say, oh, this is such a tiny country that

3928
03:43:27,120 --> 03:43:30,479
Ukraine's got about the same ratio of population to Russia

3929
03:43:30,520 --> 03:43:33,280
now that Germany did in nineteen forty one to the

3930
03:43:33,280 --> 03:43:36,239
Soviet Union. I mean, and they know how much damage

3931
03:43:36,280 --> 03:43:39,239
you know, a small country can do they if they

3932
03:43:39,280 --> 03:43:43,760
bust loose and break out, and so you know Ukraine

3933
03:43:43,959 --> 03:43:46,639
is I mean, they showed it. Look, you take nothing

3934
03:43:46,680 --> 03:43:49,680
away from the actual guys on the ground who were fighting.

3935
03:43:49,719 --> 03:43:53,680
They showed their willingness for a long time. And it

3936
03:43:53,840 --> 03:43:56,159
looks like the edges are starting to fray now. But

3937
03:43:56,200 --> 03:43:59,280
these guys showed their willingness to die in place, you know,

3938
03:43:59,399 --> 03:44:01,840
to hold their ground and fight to the last man,

3939
03:44:01,959 --> 03:44:05,399
very often not surrender when it was obvious that there

3940
03:44:05,440 --> 03:44:07,280
was nowhere to go and that the fight was over.

3941
03:44:07,959 --> 03:44:12,920
And you know, these guys are very motivated game fighters

3942
03:44:13,000 --> 03:44:16,879
who who gave the look I mean Putin did not.

3943
03:44:18,600 --> 03:44:22,879
People look at like the initial invasion when Putin supposedly

3944
03:44:22,879 --> 03:44:24,879
thought he was going to conquer all of Ukraine and

3945
03:44:24,920 --> 03:44:27,280
take Kiev and all that kind of stuff, and you know,

3946
03:44:27,319 --> 03:44:29,559
it's so silly, like when you look at the amount

3947
03:44:29,559 --> 03:44:32,840
of troops and specifically like which troops, A lot of

3948
03:44:32,879 --> 03:44:35,079
a lot of Wagner troops and stuff who were brought in.

3949
03:44:36,840 --> 03:44:40,520
You know, it was the whole country coming in on

3950
03:44:40,559 --> 03:44:45,319
five different axes. Was barely enough troops to throw at

3951
03:44:45,399 --> 03:44:48,360
one of Ukraine's secondary cities. I mean, if you're really

3952
03:44:48,360 --> 03:44:51,360
going to take it like you know, it was clear

3953
03:44:51,399 --> 03:44:53,639
from the beginning that that was not what they were

3954
03:44:53,680 --> 03:44:57,079
trying to do. I think that they probably severely miscalculated

3955
03:44:58,639 --> 03:45:02,000
and thought that is one. As we show that we're serious,

3956
03:45:02,440 --> 03:45:05,360
than the ukrainians'll panic can come to the table and

3957
03:45:05,399 --> 03:45:08,680
then they'll sign a real deal and we can you know,

3958
03:45:08,760 --> 03:45:10,520
get this done. And so you see it, and like

3959
03:45:10,520 --> 03:45:13,040
the in the tactics they employed with you know, you

3960
03:45:13,040 --> 03:45:18,000
have columns of armor just rolling down country roads with

3961
03:45:18,239 --> 03:45:21,959
no infantry support, no nothing, and they end up getting shredded.

3962
03:45:22,000 --> 03:45:24,000
And it's because I don't, you know, they weren't they

3963
03:45:24,000 --> 03:45:27,719
weren't expecting a fight. They weren't expecting the kind of

3964
03:45:27,760 --> 03:45:30,000
resistance that they got, so they didn't go in prepared

3965
03:45:30,040 --> 03:45:33,719
for it. But then even for months after that, you know,

3966
03:45:33,799 --> 03:45:36,159
for months and months after that, it was very apparent.

3967
03:45:36,280 --> 03:45:40,399
I think that Putin like he didn't want to admit

3968
03:45:40,559 --> 03:45:42,840
that this was even a war. You know, they call

3969
03:45:42,879 --> 03:45:45,479
it a special military operation for a long time, and

3970
03:45:45,520 --> 03:45:49,440
it took them a long time to mobilize. And uh,

3971
03:45:49,719 --> 03:45:52,879
you know, even to this day, Uh, you know, Putin's

3972
03:45:53,000 --> 03:45:56,479
rockets could have flattened Kiev a long time ago. You know,

3973
03:45:56,479 --> 03:45:59,079
at the beginning of the Iraq War, both the Iraq wars,

3974
03:45:59,319 --> 03:46:01,360
the first thing we did, we knocked out their entire

3975
03:46:01,360 --> 03:46:05,399
communications grid, destroyed all their power all their clean water,

3976
03:46:05,760 --> 03:46:08,079
they're all their infrastructure. We just wiped it out like

3977
03:46:08,120 --> 03:46:11,239
the first night, you know, in Iraq. Putin didn't do

3978
03:46:11,239 --> 03:46:13,680
any of that. For like a year, he wasn't doing

3979
03:46:13,719 --> 03:46:16,799
any of that, and uh, you know, and he still

3980
03:46:16,879 --> 03:46:19,280
is not attacking Kiev when he could be. He could

3981
03:46:19,280 --> 03:46:21,920
be doing that and he's not. And I think, uh,

3982
03:46:22,600 --> 03:46:26,040
you know, he he for up until the mobilization, which

3983
03:46:26,040 --> 03:46:28,959
I think was probably driven by internal pressure from people

3984
03:46:29,000 --> 03:46:33,559
to his right in the Russian establishment. Uh you know

3985
03:46:33,719 --> 03:46:38,000
that that he was still trying to find some way

3986
03:46:38,040 --> 03:46:42,280
to get this done with minimal damage to both sides,

3987
03:46:42,319 --> 03:46:45,360
you know, and then he finally just had to admit, Okay, no,

3988
03:46:45,600 --> 03:46:49,479
this is a war, and I can't sign a deal

3989
03:46:49,559 --> 03:46:51,879
with the Americans or with NATO nothing that they say

3990
03:46:51,959 --> 03:46:55,120
is reliable. I just have to, you know, fight this

3991
03:46:55,200 --> 03:46:57,719
thing to the to the end until this country is

3992
03:46:57,760 --> 03:47:00,159
no longer a threat to me and and not an

3993
03:47:00,159 --> 03:47:04,360
asset to NATO. And you know, at this point, like

3994
03:47:05,040 --> 03:47:07,079
I don't, I don't know, you know, it's very unfortunate

3995
03:47:07,079 --> 03:47:09,360
for the Ukrainians themselves, right, because you go back you

3996
03:47:09,440 --> 03:47:12,879
mentioned that Zelenski and Putin were negotiating at the like

3997
03:47:13,079 --> 03:47:15,479
in the opening months of the war, uh and that

3998
03:47:15,600 --> 03:47:19,120
they had a verbal agreement, like a tentative verbal agreement

3999
03:47:19,559 --> 03:47:21,760
that was gonna it was gonna bring it to a halt,

4000
03:47:22,280 --> 03:47:24,799
and that Boris Johnson flew over there, it's all infamous

4001
03:47:24,879 --> 03:47:26,840
now and told them, you know, oh no you're not.

4002
03:47:27,879 --> 03:47:30,040
And you think about that. I mean, it's really that's

4003
03:47:30,120 --> 03:47:32,719
really evil. I mean, this is because this is a

4004
03:47:32,760 --> 03:47:36,680
country that you know, Ukraine, like we had the power

4005
03:47:36,680 --> 03:47:39,959
to tell them, like, you end this war and we're

4006
03:47:40,000 --> 03:47:42,799
just gonna leave you hanging, and you can you know,

4007
03:47:43,000 --> 03:47:46,600
you're you're blown up cities and you know, you're destroyed

4008
03:47:46,639 --> 03:47:48,639
economy and all that. You guys can just have fun

4009
03:47:48,719 --> 03:47:52,040
with that because we're not helping even though you got

4010
03:47:52,040 --> 03:47:55,840
into this whole thing largely because of you know, policies

4011
03:47:55,879 --> 03:47:58,200
we were using you as a proxy for we could

4012
03:47:58,239 --> 03:48:00,000
just abandon them and really put the hurt on them.

4013
03:48:00,079 --> 03:48:04,200
We essentially blackmailed them into continuing to throw their young

4014
03:48:04,280 --> 03:48:07,360
men into this, into this meek grinder, and you know,

4015
03:48:07,399 --> 03:48:14,200
it's really awful. But yeah, I think that at this point, unfortunately,

4016
03:48:15,840 --> 03:48:18,200
you know, the Russians probably feel like they have to

4017
03:48:18,239 --> 03:48:20,559
fight this thing to the end, which is not what

4018
03:48:20,559 --> 03:48:24,000
Putin wanted to do. I think that's clear. And I'm

4019
03:48:24,040 --> 03:48:27,959
not like, look man like. Putin is not like some

4020
03:48:29,120 --> 03:48:32,639
fuzzy friendly fella, you know. I mean, he's a he's

4021
03:48:32,639 --> 03:48:37,440
a hardcore, ruthless dude, and nobody but a hardcore ruthless

4022
03:48:37,520 --> 03:48:40,200
dude was going to pull Russia out of the condition

4023
03:48:40,280 --> 03:48:43,680
it was in in the nineties, when you know, the

4024
03:48:43,719 --> 03:48:47,360
government is controlled by the guys who own the entire economy,

4025
03:48:47,559 --> 03:48:50,920
They control regions of the country with their own private armies.

4026
03:48:51,440 --> 03:48:55,520
And he managed to you know, re establish the prerogative

4027
03:48:55,559 --> 03:48:58,799
of the Russian state and put that society back together

4028
03:48:59,040 --> 03:49:01,719
and clip the wings of all those oligarchs without a

4029
03:49:01,760 --> 03:49:05,479
civil war. I mean, it's amazing, It really is amazing

4030
03:49:05,520 --> 03:49:09,879
that that happened. And you know, some guy who was

4031
03:49:10,120 --> 03:49:12,719
you know, Bernie Sanders was not going to be able

4032
03:49:12,719 --> 03:49:14,760
to do something like that. He's a he's a hard

4033
03:49:14,799 --> 03:49:17,879
man who came up in a very very hard time

4034
03:49:20,040 --> 03:49:24,159
and so but you know, yeah, I think that, But yeah,

4035
03:49:24,159 --> 03:49:27,000
I think that's where we're at. I think that Russia

4036
03:49:27,079 --> 03:49:30,840
is finally kind of you know, reached a point of

4037
03:49:30,879 --> 03:49:34,600
exasperation where it's affected you know, over the long term,

4038
03:49:35,399 --> 03:49:38,159
I think that they have accepted that, you know, we're

4039
03:49:38,200 --> 03:49:41,719
never really going to fully accept them and we're never

4040
03:49:41,760 --> 03:49:44,120
going to let them in. And so that's why you know,

4041
03:49:44,159 --> 03:49:49,040
they've solidified their relationships with China and Iran and India.

4042
03:49:49,200 --> 03:49:52,159
You know, India didn't abandon Russia and a lot, you know,

4043
03:49:52,200 --> 03:49:53,799
a lot of the countries around the world. I mean,

4044
03:49:53,799 --> 03:49:56,719
that's what you want to talk about, like the failures

4045
03:49:56,760 --> 03:50:01,159
of the New end policy. I mean, the Russian military

4046
03:50:01,280 --> 03:50:05,079
is way stronger now than it was beforehand. The Russian

4047
03:50:05,079 --> 03:50:09,799
military has a ton of experience fighting NATO tactics and

4048
03:50:09,879 --> 03:50:14,520
NATO weapons systems that it didn't have before. It's Russia

4049
03:50:14,559 --> 03:50:18,920
has had a long and brutal war to advance their

4050
03:50:19,040 --> 03:50:23,680
understanding of drone tactics on the battlefield. You know, probably

4051
03:50:24,079 --> 03:50:28,040
a decade or two worth of like military advancement in

4052
03:50:28,079 --> 03:50:31,000
that space has probably been compressed into like two years.

4053
03:50:31,040 --> 03:50:32,399
And you know, they've had to learn a lot of

4054
03:50:32,399 --> 03:50:35,200
that the hard way, but they've learned it now. And

4055
03:50:35,239 --> 03:50:36,920
if you look at the United States, like what we

4056
03:50:37,040 --> 03:50:42,959
gained from this, you know what, like you know, our

4057
03:50:43,000 --> 03:50:46,840
other rivals around the world. You know, China Indian just

4058
03:50:46,959 --> 03:50:49,079
not not rivals, but the other powers around the world

4059
03:50:49,440 --> 03:50:52,040
have seen that there are limits to what we can

4060
03:50:52,079 --> 03:50:56,120
actually do, which you know, maybe they believe that before,

4061
03:50:56,159 --> 03:51:00,120
but they weren't sure. You know, they saw Iraq or

4062
03:51:00,639 --> 03:51:03,239
or Libya or something and they say, okay, they you know,

4063
03:51:03,239 --> 03:51:05,760
Americans weren't able to achieve their goal or whatever, but

4064
03:51:05,760 --> 03:51:08,200
they can sure as hell cause a hell of a

4065
03:51:08,239 --> 03:51:10,319
lot of problems, you know, for us that we don't want.

4066
03:51:10,840 --> 03:51:13,440
But they see that there's limitations to that is to

4067
03:51:13,680 --> 03:51:17,639
you know, what we can actually do. A lot of

4068
03:51:17,639 --> 03:51:21,239
countries that were you know that we're friendly with and

4069
03:51:21,319 --> 03:51:25,280
we're still friendly with, you know, India, Brazil, uh, Mexico,

4070
03:51:25,520 --> 03:51:28,600
a lot of these countries. We told them, you know,

4071
03:51:29,200 --> 03:51:32,000
you have to, uh we we need you to be

4072
03:51:32,079 --> 03:51:35,120
with us on this. Cut Russia off, you know, uh

4073
03:51:35,319 --> 03:51:38,040
follow these sanctions. And most of those countries said no,

4074
03:51:38,879 --> 03:51:42,000
and you know, outside of outside of NATO said no.

4075
03:51:42,319 --> 03:51:44,440
And there were no consequences for that, you know, we

4076
03:51:44,440 --> 03:51:47,399
we weren't able to impose any consequences on them. And

4077
03:51:47,479 --> 03:51:54,040
the fact that you know, the these financial institutions that

4078
03:51:54,079 --> 03:51:57,479
the United States has really used as as instruments of

4079
03:51:57,600 --> 03:52:00,639
global control for you know, since in the post war period,

4080
03:52:00,719 --> 03:52:03,040
like the like the IMF and all all these others,

4081
03:52:03,079 --> 03:52:06,760
the Swift system and so forth. You know, these are

4082
03:52:06,799 --> 03:52:10,239
things that before countries had to worry like what actually

4083
03:52:10,280 --> 03:52:12,440
will happen if they cut us off the swift system?

4084
03:52:12,520 --> 03:52:14,559
Like that could be armageddon, Like that could be all.

4085
03:52:15,680 --> 03:52:19,440
But now everybody's seen it that actually, you know, you

4086
03:52:19,479 --> 03:52:22,479
can get by. You can get by just fine, and

4087
03:52:23,239 --> 03:52:26,000
you know, we're in a much weaker position now. We

4088
03:52:27,440 --> 03:52:29,639
Europe is in a much weaker position. Although you know,

4089
03:52:29,760 --> 03:52:34,360
I've heard people hypothesize that maybe that was, you know,

4090
03:52:34,479 --> 03:52:36,680
kind of part of the goal of this whole thing

4091
03:52:36,840 --> 03:52:41,520
was to you know, was to make sure that you know,

4092
03:52:41,559 --> 03:52:44,440
Europe didn't I mean, if you go like everybody knows

4093
03:52:44,479 --> 03:52:49,000
that Russia asked Yeltsin and Putin one time, asked about

4094
03:52:49,040 --> 03:52:51,680
Russia joining NATO because that was one of their solutions.

4095
03:52:51,719 --> 03:52:54,360
They were like, in fact, Yeltsin said, look, why don't

4096
03:52:54,399 --> 03:52:56,639
we This is when we were talking about the first

4097
03:52:56,639 --> 03:52:58,760
tranch of expansion in the mid nineties, and he was like,

4098
03:52:58,760 --> 03:53:01,280
I'll tell you what, why don't we join NATO first?

4099
03:53:02,559 --> 03:53:04,600
And then we'll bring in all the countries between US,

4100
03:53:04,639 --> 03:53:06,719
and we won't have anything to worry about because we're

4101
03:53:06,799 --> 03:53:08,920
part of the program. And of course we said no,

4102
03:53:09,440 --> 03:53:11,360
you know, we were. That was never on the table

4103
03:53:11,479 --> 03:53:16,600
because ah, you know, NATO is it's just the dealing.

4104
03:53:17,000 --> 03:53:20,399
It's it's it's the you know, it's it's the instrument

4105
03:53:20,440 --> 03:53:23,639
of American control over Europe. That's what it is. We're

4106
03:53:23,639 --> 03:53:26,600
not going to you know, share the share the room

4107
03:53:26,760 --> 03:53:30,840
with another large power that we can't control and has

4108
03:53:30,920 --> 03:53:33,799
ideas of their own. But then also it was you know,

4109
03:53:34,079 --> 03:53:39,479
if Russia's our friend, then Europe might start looking around

4110
03:53:39,559 --> 03:53:42,719
and say, well, wait, okay, what do we need you know,

4111
03:53:43,040 --> 03:53:45,719
an American military base in Germany for If Russia is

4112
03:53:45,719 --> 03:53:48,000
our friend, what do we need to continue to like

4113
03:53:48,639 --> 03:53:51,520
take dictations from Washington, d C. On our foreign policy?

4114
03:53:51,840 --> 03:53:54,639
If the only country that's even feasibly a threat to

4115
03:53:54,719 --> 03:53:57,319
US is now not just not a threat, but an

4116
03:53:57,360 --> 03:54:03,959
ally and you know, so uh, it's uh, it's dark

4117
03:54:04,000 --> 03:54:06,399
and crazy to think that you know that that that

4118
03:54:07,120 --> 03:54:10,559
planners might have been thinking that way. But at the

4119
03:54:10,559 --> 03:54:12,440
same time, it would be in keeping with you know

4120
03:54:12,520 --> 03:54:16,840
a lot of their behavior where you use controlled chaos,

4121
03:54:17,399 --> 03:54:20,040
you know, a lot of times, chaos is the goal.

4122
03:54:20,760 --> 03:54:24,120
You know, if you look at like this is something

4123
03:54:24,159 --> 03:54:26,680
Putin talks about all the time, and most Americans are

4124
03:54:26,719 --> 03:54:30,120
just like, huh, what's he talking about? But uh after

4125
03:54:30,600 --> 03:54:34,319
during as well, but uh then even after the second

4126
03:54:34,319 --> 03:54:38,159
War with Chechnya it was over, we were over there

4127
03:54:38,280 --> 03:54:42,479
like funding training you know, these jihadists who were there.

4128
03:54:42,479 --> 03:54:44,680
This is after the war's over, Like they're not gonna

4129
03:54:44,840 --> 03:54:47,280
retake you know, Gros near anything like that's all over.

4130
03:54:47,799 --> 03:54:51,399
But what we wanted was just to keep enough chaos

4131
03:54:51,440 --> 03:54:54,600
going in that region so that you know, a pipeline

4132
03:54:54,639 --> 03:54:57,200
couldn't get built down to the Black Sea that Russia

4133
03:54:57,280 --> 03:54:58,680
was trying to do for years, and a lot of

4134
03:54:58,680 --> 03:55:01,680
these other things you couldn't develop, you know, the region

4135
03:55:01,719 --> 03:55:05,920
strategically because there's just too much chaos popping off. And

4136
03:55:05,959 --> 03:55:08,520
then by the way, and I and I uh, you

4137
03:55:08,520 --> 03:55:10,799
know some of this is public knowledge, but you know,

4138
03:55:11,319 --> 03:55:14,799
I have like confirmation from a marine who was a

4139
03:55:14,840 --> 03:55:18,680
part of the training operation working out at Istanbul when

4140
03:55:18,719 --> 03:55:24,760
Marsak was was training these jihadis and arming them. One

4141
03:55:24,799 --> 03:55:27,399
of them, one of our main guys was there were

4142
03:55:27,440 --> 03:55:29,799
four main warlords that we were like really working with

4143
03:55:29,840 --> 03:55:32,840
on their own militias, and one of them his group,

4144
03:55:33,799 --> 03:55:36,959
you know, and as far as I know, uh, you know,

4145
03:55:37,000 --> 03:55:40,079
we were not working directly with them anymore at this point,

4146
03:55:40,840 --> 03:55:42,479
but it was his group that went and did the

4147
03:55:42,520 --> 03:55:48,440
Beslan school attack in Russia. And so I mean, you know,

4148
03:55:49,319 --> 03:55:51,319
you just again you have to try to put yourself

4149
03:55:51,319 --> 03:55:55,040
in the in the position of the Russians and you

4150
03:55:55,079 --> 03:55:58,000
see something like that, you know, and think of how

4151
03:55:58,040 --> 03:56:04,120
we would respond to it. And you know, I think

4152
03:56:04,159 --> 03:56:07,840
about like you know, you've heard like Dan Crenshaw, Lindsey Graham.

4153
03:56:08,639 --> 03:56:12,319
You guys just total maniacs. You know, they go on Twitter,

4154
03:56:12,479 --> 03:56:15,319
they go in public. Dan Crenshaw actually said this is

4155
03:56:15,360 --> 03:56:17,840
almost word for word. I think he said, you know,

4156
03:56:17,920 --> 03:56:20,639
I don't understand why people have a problem with what

4157
03:56:20,719 --> 03:56:23,799
we're doing over in Ukraine. A bunch of Russians are

4158
03:56:23,879 --> 03:56:27,799
dying and it's not costing us anything but money. Like

4159
03:56:27,879 --> 03:56:30,520
that's literally what he said. And so imagine like we're

4160
03:56:30,520 --> 03:56:36,040
in Iraq and the Russians are just training, arming and

4161
03:56:36,120 --> 03:56:39,000
not even on the sly They're just like basically leading

4162
03:56:39,079 --> 03:56:42,319
the insurgency against US, and Russian politicians are out there

4163
03:56:42,319 --> 03:56:45,159
in public saying, oh, yeah, we don't. Our only goal

4164
03:56:45,239 --> 03:56:47,120
is to kill Americans, Like we just want to see

4165
03:56:47,120 --> 03:56:50,200
more dead Americans. Like other than that, like if that happens,

4166
03:56:50,239 --> 03:56:52,959
we're you know, we're happy. Dead Americans is cool in

4167
03:56:53,000 --> 03:56:55,799
our book. That's enough for us. You think these people

4168
03:56:55,840 --> 03:57:00,239
are fucking maniacs, you know, And and I think that's

4169
03:57:00,280 --> 03:57:03,520
where the Russians are with us at that at this point.

4170
03:57:03,639 --> 03:57:07,399
And it's unfortunate because you know, I love Russia. I

4171
03:57:07,440 --> 03:57:10,280
mean I you know, I started reading Russian literature when

4172
03:57:10,280 --> 03:57:13,120
I was a teenager, and you know, I've always loved it.

4173
03:57:13,159 --> 03:57:16,479
I love the culture, and I find it to be

4174
03:57:16,760 --> 03:57:20,639
a real tragedy that that our relationship to that country

4175
03:57:20,639 --> 03:57:23,680
has been dragged down by a few, you know, really

4176
03:57:23,719 --> 03:57:25,280
malicious interested parties.

4177
03:57:26,639 --> 03:57:30,840
Speaker 1: Well, let's finish on that. I mentioned before we started

4178
03:57:30,879 --> 03:57:36,040
recording that we talked about managery early interested parties that

4179
03:57:36,040 --> 03:57:39,840
they can get they can they can start wars, they

4180
03:57:39,840 --> 03:57:43,319
can foament wars, they can fund wars that that even

4181
03:57:43,360 --> 03:57:47,399
Americans don't have to fight in. And Colonel McGregor, Douglas

4182
03:57:47,479 --> 03:57:51,600
McGregor has been running around basically saying that he believes

4183
03:57:51,639 --> 03:57:55,559
that there's an the people who are doing this in

4184
03:57:55,600 --> 03:57:58,120
the United States government are doing it out of an

4185
03:57:58,159 --> 03:58:06,000
ethnic and ethnic vendetta. Basically that Victoria Nowlan her husband

4186
03:58:06,040 --> 03:58:10,520
Robert Kagan Kagan is Russian for kne that it's a

4187
03:58:10,600 --> 03:58:16,680
Jewish animosity for the pale of settlement, stettles, the pogroms.

4188
03:58:18,000 --> 03:58:21,200
How do you answer? What do you think of McGregor

4189
03:58:21,319 --> 03:58:22,680
saying that, what's your opinion?

4190
03:58:23,399 --> 03:58:28,120
Speaker 2: I think that there's there's definitely something to it, But

4191
03:58:28,159 --> 03:58:30,959
it's not just the Jews, you know, like you you

4192
03:58:31,040 --> 03:58:33,879
listen to the polls, like I think the polls, they're

4193
03:58:33,959 --> 03:58:35,840
like if we go to nuclear war, we go to

4194
03:58:35,920 --> 03:58:39,120
nuclear war. Like as long as Moscow gets flat and

4195
03:58:39,120 --> 03:58:40,680
as part of that deal, I'm cool for like the

4196
03:58:41,159 --> 03:58:42,159
just absolute manium.

4197
03:58:42,319 --> 03:58:45,440
Speaker 1: And mind you and mind you, there are four thousand

4198
03:58:45,559 --> 03:58:49,280
Jews in Poland. Yeah, look I looked that up recently

4199
03:58:49,319 --> 03:58:54,319
when that whole when that one Polish politician extinguished a minora,

4200
03:58:54,840 --> 03:58:57,479
I look to see what the Jewish population of Poland was,

4201
03:58:57,520 --> 03:58:59,639
and it's like four thousand right now.

4202
03:58:59,719 --> 03:59:03,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, and I mean look like there's this,

4203
03:59:03,360 --> 03:59:06,159
there's this, there's this good joke. See if I can

4204
03:59:06,200 --> 03:59:09,799
get it right, where this this Polish peasant is out

4205
03:59:09,840 --> 03:59:12,479
in his field and he finds a magic lamp, the

4206
03:59:12,559 --> 03:59:15,239
Genie lamp, and so he gives it a rub. He's

4207
03:59:15,239 --> 03:59:17,120
gonna have his wishes. The genie pops out and says,

4208
03:59:17,120 --> 03:59:20,000
you get three wishes. What's your first wish? And he says,

4209
03:59:20,040 --> 03:59:25,399
I want China to invade Poland. He says, huh do

4210
03:59:25,440 --> 03:59:26,920
you want to repeat that? And he tells him. He's

4211
03:59:26,920 --> 03:59:31,479
like whatever, it was fine, and so you know, a

4212
03:59:31,479 --> 03:59:34,920
few hours later, or however long later, see smoke on

4213
03:59:34,959 --> 03:59:37,559
the horizon and tanks start rolling in and the air

4214
03:59:37,600 --> 03:59:40,520
force rolls in. The Chinese military comes in, just flattens Poland,

4215
03:59:40,680 --> 03:59:44,000
just wipes out the guy's village, everywhere else destroyed. And

4216
03:59:44,040 --> 03:59:47,680
then they go home and he says, all right, so

4217
03:59:47,719 --> 03:59:50,040
I want my second wish, and he's like, what do

4218
03:59:50,040 --> 03:59:52,280
you want this time? You want me to rebuild the country.

4219
03:59:52,559 --> 03:59:55,120
What is it you want? He said, I want China

4220
03:59:55,120 --> 03:59:59,639
to invade Poland again, and he's like okay, And so

4221
03:59:59,719 --> 04:00:02,680
the whole who same thing happens again, and third wish

4222
04:00:02,760 --> 04:00:05,559
he wants China to invade Poland again, and so it

4223
04:00:05,600 --> 04:00:08,159
happens again. He says, I got to ask you, like,

4224
04:00:08,280 --> 04:00:10,680
why is it that you want. Don't you love your

4225
04:00:10,719 --> 04:00:13,159
country like or do you really hate your country? Why

4226
04:00:13,159 --> 04:00:15,159
do you want want China to come destroy it?

4227
04:00:15,399 --> 04:00:15,600
Speaker 1: Said?

4228
04:00:15,600 --> 04:00:18,319
Speaker 2: Are you kidding? I love my country. I love Poland

4229
04:00:18,319 --> 04:00:21,399
more than anything. But to come to Poland three times,

4230
04:00:21,520 --> 04:00:25,799
China's got to go through Russia six times. And you know,

4231
04:00:26,200 --> 04:00:31,479
on one level, like I think that, And you know,

4232
04:00:31,639 --> 04:00:35,120
I've got friends in the Baltics especially, but in Poland

4233
04:00:35,120 --> 04:00:37,719
as well, and they would all fight me on this,

4234
04:00:38,680 --> 04:00:42,159
but I think there's a certain level, a certain a

4235
04:00:42,159 --> 04:00:46,479
certain way in which you know, those countries were part

4236
04:00:46,520 --> 04:00:49,520
of the Soviet Union, some more willingly than others. You know,

4237
04:00:49,639 --> 04:00:51,840
Poland honestly is one of the one of the ones

4238
04:00:51,879 --> 04:00:54,920
that was part of the Soviet Union much more unwillingly.

4239
04:00:54,959 --> 04:00:59,440
But you know, the Soviet Union was a was a

4240
04:00:59,520 --> 04:01:03,719
multi f multinational project, especially early on before Stalin kind

4241
04:01:03,760 --> 04:01:06,760
of reconverted it into a sort of a Russian empire.

4242
04:01:06,879 --> 04:01:09,920
But you know, this is a multi ethnic, multinational project

4243
04:01:10,479 --> 04:01:14,479
that had participation, you know, from strong communist parties like

4244
04:01:14,520 --> 04:01:17,559
across Eastern Europe who were who were doing this. You know,

4245
04:01:17,799 --> 04:01:21,319
it was not it was not a bunch of Russians

4246
04:01:21,440 --> 04:01:27,479
who were going into you know, country A and you know,

4247
04:01:27,680 --> 04:01:30,120
attacking the ethnic people over here. It was their own

4248
04:01:30,120 --> 04:01:32,840
communist parties who were leading those efforts, you know, and

4249
04:01:32,959 --> 04:01:36,200
taking leadership from Moscow obviously, and so this went on

4250
04:01:36,239 --> 04:01:38,440
for a long time, and I think like, uh, you know,

4251
04:01:38,479 --> 04:01:41,959
there's some there's something of once the Soviet Union fell,

4252
04:01:42,000 --> 04:01:45,120
and these countries are sort of reckoning with their own past,

4253
04:01:45,799 --> 04:01:49,319
their own the fact that you know, you're a country

4254
04:01:49,319 --> 04:01:51,360
that that was part of the Soviet Union. Now you're not,

4255
04:01:51,840 --> 04:01:54,680
but you're still living in the you know, next door

4256
04:01:54,760 --> 04:01:56,639
to a guy who was part of the Secret Police.

4257
04:01:56,840 --> 04:02:00,000
You're living next door to a you know, a communis

4258
04:02:00,360 --> 04:02:03,280
apparatchic over here is something and you have to figure

4259
04:02:03,319 --> 04:02:05,680
out how are we gonna knit this society back together?

4260
04:02:05,799 --> 04:02:07,959
Like how are we gonna And I think one of

4261
04:02:07,959 --> 04:02:10,079
the ways that they've done it is they just think, now,

4262
04:02:10,159 --> 04:02:14,200
like the Soviet Union was Russia, Russia is the Soviet Union.

4263
04:02:14,680 --> 04:02:19,520
US we're pure victims of Russian imperialism and that was

4264
04:02:19,559 --> 04:02:22,159
our role in the Soviet Union, just as victims, and

4265
04:02:22,200 --> 04:02:23,920
so even our people who are a part of that

4266
04:02:24,040 --> 04:02:26,440
or whatever, like you know, we really had no choice,

4267
04:02:26,440 --> 04:02:28,040
and we can all kind of come together, and so

4268
04:02:28,399 --> 04:02:32,159
I think it's been like a mechanism for pulling, you know,

4269
04:02:32,200 --> 04:02:34,639
those societies back together in a cohesive way. I don't

4270
04:02:34,639 --> 04:02:35,920
want to say it's the beginning and end of it,

4271
04:02:35,959 --> 04:02:37,159
but I think there's something to that.

4272
04:02:38,360 --> 04:02:40,559
Speaker 1: Cool. It's all everybody where they can find your work.

4273
04:02:42,479 --> 04:02:45,360
Speaker 2: So I've got a podcast where I do long form

4274
04:02:45,639 --> 04:02:50,200
history stuff. It's called Martyr Made, and you can find

4275
04:02:50,239 --> 04:02:54,040
that on iTunes or Spotify or whatever. I've got another

4276
04:02:54,079 --> 04:02:57,719
podcast with my buddy Jocko Willink called The Unraveling where

4277
04:02:57,719 --> 04:02:59,959
we talk about sort of more recent history and contemp

4278
04:03:00,040 --> 04:03:04,639
prairiy events. And then I've got a substack Martyrmade dot

4279
04:03:04,680 --> 04:03:07,959
substack dot com where I kind of go into a

4280
04:03:07,959 --> 04:03:10,239
lot of these things even more in depth.

4281
04:03:11,319 --> 04:03:13,360
Speaker 1: Subscribe to all of them. I do.

4282
04:03:14,040 --> 04:03:16,520
Speaker 2: Thank you, Daryl, Thanks brother. Always a good time.

4283
04:03:18,840 --> 04:03:21,959
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone to Part one, the official

4284
04:03:22,360 --> 04:03:27,520
Part one, first part of my reading of Kudeta and

4285
04:03:27,600 --> 04:03:31,200
I have a special guest here, Daryl Cooper, Hey doing.

4286
04:03:31,159 --> 04:03:34,040
Speaker 2: Daryrol doing great man. It's always good to be on.

4287
04:03:34,719 --> 04:03:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so tell me. I asked John when I

4288
04:03:39,440 --> 04:03:43,799
had him on before, when did when did kuditab come

4289
04:03:43,840 --> 04:03:44,639
on to your radar.

4290
04:03:46,319 --> 04:03:48,959
Speaker 2: I think I read this book maybe, gosh, it must

4291
04:03:48,959 --> 04:03:53,719
have been must have been fifteen years ago now, yeah,

4292
04:03:53,760 --> 04:03:57,399
around two thousand and nine, twenty ten, and I was

4293
04:03:57,479 --> 04:03:59,040
reading a lot of that kind of stuff, you know,

4294
04:03:59,079 --> 04:04:02,559
I was reading a lot of Peter Dale Scott and

4295
04:04:02,600 --> 04:04:04,760
you know, reading a lot about just like the Banana War,

4296
04:04:04,920 --> 04:04:07,200
just all the twentieth century kind of kind of Cold

4297
04:04:07,239 --> 04:04:10,559
war stuff. And I read through it back then. But

4298
04:04:10,600 --> 04:04:13,479
I'll tell you it's one of those books that I

4299
04:04:13,479 --> 04:04:15,920
think the last fifteen years that have passed since that

4300
04:04:16,079 --> 04:04:20,120
time have really given the book a new flavor in

4301
04:04:20,159 --> 04:04:22,319
a way, because you know, I read it back then

4302
04:04:22,360 --> 04:04:25,920
and I enjoyed it. I've been rereading it because we're

4303
04:04:25,959 --> 04:04:28,520
going to talk about it, and I've been getting a

4304
04:04:28,559 --> 04:04:30,799
lot more out of it. There's a lot more to

4305
04:04:30,920 --> 04:04:32,639
draw on, for sure, So I'm looking forward to.

4306
04:04:34,440 --> 04:04:37,600
Speaker 1: Cool. So what we're going to do is the preface

4307
04:04:37,639 --> 04:04:40,440
to the first edition is one page. I'll read it

4308
04:04:41,200 --> 04:04:43,399
and then skip to the first chapter. If there's anything

4309
04:04:43,440 --> 04:04:45,520
you want to comment in on a comment on here

4310
04:04:45,559 --> 04:04:48,079
on the preface, just let me know. Right, let's go.

4311
04:04:49,920 --> 04:04:53,040
This is a handbook. It is therefore not concerned with

4312
04:04:53,079 --> 04:04:56,200
the theoretical analysis of the coupdhata, but rather with the

4313
04:04:56,239 --> 04:04:59,159
formulation of the techniques which can be employed to seize

4314
04:04:59,159 --> 04:05:03,239
power with in a state. It can be compared to

4315
04:05:03,280 --> 04:05:05,920
a cookery book in the sense that it aims at

4316
04:05:06,079 --> 04:05:10,760
enabling any lay person, equipped with enthusiasm and the right ingredients,

4317
04:05:11,120 --> 04:05:14,280
to carry out his own coup. Only a knowledge of

4318
04:05:14,319 --> 04:05:18,239
the rules is required. Two words of caution. In the

4319
04:05:18,239 --> 04:05:21,280
first place, in order to carry out a successful coup,

4320
04:05:21,559 --> 04:05:25,360
certain preconditions must be present, just as in cooking Bullyabase,

4321
04:05:25,840 --> 04:05:28,959
one needs to needs the right source of fish to

4322
04:05:29,040 --> 04:05:33,639
start with. Second, readers should be aware that the penalty

4323
04:05:33,680 --> 04:05:36,479
of failure is far greater than having to eat out

4324
04:05:36,520 --> 04:05:41,879
of a tin. The rewards, too, are greater. It may

4325
04:05:41,879 --> 04:05:45,600
be objected that should such a handbook be inadequate or misleading,

4326
04:05:45,879 --> 04:05:48,879
the readers will be subject to great dangers, while if

4327
04:05:48,920 --> 04:05:51,479
it is an efficient guide to the problems, it may

4328
04:05:51,600 --> 04:05:56,040
lead to upheoples and disturbances. My defense is that coups

4329
04:05:56,159 --> 04:05:58,879
are already common, and if as a result of this

4330
04:05:58,959 --> 04:06:01,719
book a number of people learn how to carry them out,

4331
04:06:02,079 --> 04:06:05,360
this is merely a step towards the democratization of the coup,

4332
04:06:06,000 --> 04:06:11,559
the fact that all persons of liberal sentiments should applaud. Finally,

4333
04:06:11,559 --> 04:06:14,719
it should be noted that the techniques here discussed are

4334
04:06:14,719 --> 04:06:18,639
politically neutral and concerned only with the objective of seizing

4335
04:06:18,959 --> 04:06:23,200
control of the state, and not at all with subsequent policies.

4336
04:06:26,079 --> 04:06:29,360
When jump into chapter one, let's do it all right?

4337
04:06:29,600 --> 04:06:33,760
Chapter one? What is a coupd'tas? I shall got a

4338
04:06:33,760 --> 04:06:36,719
couple quotes here. I shall be sorry to commence the

4339
04:06:36,799 --> 04:06:39,040
era of peace by a coup de ETAs such as

4340
04:06:39,079 --> 04:06:43,559
that I had in contemplation, Duke of Wellington, eighteen eleven.

4341
04:06:44,639 --> 04:06:48,760
No other way of salvation remained except for the army's intervention.

4342
04:06:49,159 --> 04:06:55,360
Constantine Collius, April twenty first, nineteen sixty seven, Athens, all right.

4343
04:06:55,959 --> 04:06:59,559
Starting with the text. Though the term coupdata has been

4344
04:06:59,639 --> 04:07:03,079
used for more than three centuries, the feasibility of the

4345
04:07:03,120 --> 04:07:07,239
coup derives from a comparatively recent development, the rise of

4346
04:07:07,239 --> 04:07:12,040
the modern state, with its professional bureaucracy and standing armed forces.

4347
04:07:13,280 --> 04:07:15,799
The power of the modern state largely depends on this

4348
04:07:15,920 --> 04:07:20,440
permanent machinery, which, with its archives, files, records and officials,

4349
04:07:20,799 --> 04:07:24,399
can follow intimately and if it so desires, control the

4350
04:07:24,440 --> 04:07:30,799
activities of lesser organizations and individuals. Totalitarian states merely use

4351
04:07:30,920 --> 04:07:36,760
more fully the detailed and comprehensive information available to most states. However,

4352
04:07:36,879 --> 04:07:40,680
democratic the instrument is largely the same, though it is

4353
04:07:40,799 --> 04:07:44,479
used differently. Right off the bat, when you start reading this,

4354
04:07:44,680 --> 04:07:48,920
it really seems like he's describing the managerial state, right,

4355
04:07:49,600 --> 04:07:52,719
what has existed since let's call it the late twenties

4356
04:07:52,719 --> 04:07:53,479
to early thirties.

4357
04:07:53,920 --> 04:07:56,360
Speaker 2: You're muted, Yeah, I forgot about that. There's like a

4358
04:07:56,360 --> 04:08:00,000
Babarian aspect to it too, right, Like Max Weber describes

4359
04:08:00,280 --> 04:08:03,600
three forms of like organizational or political authority. You got

4360
04:08:03,600 --> 04:08:07,239
like the charismatic or the traditional or the legal rational,

4361
04:08:07,280 --> 04:08:11,319
and that's what he's talking about here. And you know,

4362
04:08:11,840 --> 04:08:15,079
for Lootwalk, the coup is really only possible with the

4363
04:08:15,159 --> 04:08:19,120
legal rational when you get that distinction between the political

4364
04:08:19,280 --> 04:08:21,920
authority and the state machinery where there's sort of two

4365
04:08:22,000 --> 04:08:24,879
distinct things and you can swap people out at the

4366
04:08:24,920 --> 04:08:29,760
top and they are conferred genuine power from their position,

4367
04:08:30,559 --> 04:08:34,040
you know, in a traditional authority structure, which is just

4368
04:08:34,040 --> 04:08:38,639
basically like a patronage system. Everything from you know, say

4369
04:08:38,680 --> 04:08:43,760
Saudi Arabia today to feudal systems in the past, you know,

4370
04:08:43,959 --> 04:08:47,600
these things were built on organic relationships, like that's what

4371
04:08:47,639 --> 04:08:51,040
the system of power represented was the totality of these

4372
04:08:51,159 --> 04:08:56,159
organic relationships. And a coup. You can't really pull off

4373
04:08:56,159 --> 04:08:59,239
a coup unless you're maybe you know, a brother taking

4374
04:08:59,280 --> 04:09:01,559
out the you know, the crown prints and taking his

4375
04:09:01,639 --> 04:09:03,520
place or something like that. But that's about it. And

4376
04:09:04,159 --> 04:09:08,639
same with charismatic authority, where leader, you know, leadership sort

4377
04:09:08,680 --> 04:09:12,639
of coalesces around the person of a single charismatic individual.

4378
04:09:13,719 --> 04:09:15,559
A lot of times you don't have much of an

4379
04:09:15,639 --> 04:09:19,840
organization to go with that. The organization is, you know,

4380
04:09:19,879 --> 04:09:22,920
the gathering of people around the man, and it's very

4381
04:09:22,920 --> 04:09:26,440
hard to pull off a coup in that environment. Once

4382
04:09:26,559 --> 04:09:31,479
the legal rational system gets in place, though, and especially

4383
04:09:31,520 --> 04:09:35,319
once it gains a sort of autonomy and self awareness,

4384
04:09:35,360 --> 04:09:37,920
you know, of itself as a class and as a

4385
04:09:37,920 --> 04:09:42,879
as a as a as a function, it starts to

4386
04:09:42,959 --> 04:09:45,559
learn how to defend itself and it'll start to, uh,

4387
04:09:45,840 --> 04:09:49,840
you know, fend off challenges from charismatic leaders or traditionalist

4388
04:09:50,239 --> 04:09:54,719
you know, patronage type type networks, and you know, and

4389
04:09:54,799 --> 04:09:56,920
it's only that type that, yeah, that that you can

4390
04:09:57,000 --> 04:09:57,879
run a coup against.

4391
04:09:59,040 --> 04:10:05,319
Speaker 1: Ye right onward The growth of modern state bureaucracies has

4392
04:10:05,360 --> 04:10:08,280
two implications that are crucial for the feasibility of the coup.

4393
04:10:08,719 --> 04:10:12,239
The emergence of clear distinctions between the permanent machinery of

4394
04:10:12,280 --> 04:10:15,200
state and the political leadership, and the fact that state

4395
04:10:15,239 --> 04:10:20,120
bureaucracies have structured hierarchies with definite chains of command. The

4396
04:10:20,200 --> 04:10:23,120
distinction between the bureaucrat is an employee of the state

4397
04:10:23,520 --> 04:10:25,719
and as a personal servant of the ruler is a

4398
04:10:25,760 --> 04:10:28,440
new one, and both the British and the American systems

4399
04:10:28,440 --> 04:10:34,879
so show residual features of the earlier structure. The importance

4400
04:10:34,920 --> 04:10:37,000
of this development lies in the fact that if the

4401
04:10:37,040 --> 04:10:40,000
bureaucrats are linked to the leadership an a legal seizure

4402
04:10:40,040 --> 04:10:42,600
of power must take the form of a palace revolution,

4403
04:10:43,280 --> 04:10:46,760
which essentially concerns the manipulation of the person of the ruler.

4404
04:10:47,559 --> 04:10:49,920
That ruler may be forced to accept new policies or

4405
04:10:49,959 --> 04:10:53,200
new advisors, or may be killed or held captive. But

4406
04:10:53,319 --> 04:10:56,319
whatever happens, the palace revolution can only be conducted from

4407
04:10:56,360 --> 04:11:00,159
the inside and by insiders. An insider might be be

4408
04:11:00,200 --> 04:11:02,840
the commander of the palace guard, as in ancient Rome

4409
04:11:03,479 --> 04:11:06,600
or the Ethiopia of the nineteen sixties, and if the

4410
04:11:06,719 --> 04:11:09,680
dynastics system is preserved, the aim is to replace the

4411
04:11:09,760 --> 04:11:15,239
unwanted ruler with a more malleable descendant. The coup is

4412
04:11:15,280 --> 04:11:18,040
a much more democratic affair. It can be conducted from

4413
04:11:18,079 --> 04:11:21,040
the outside and operates in the area outside the government

4414
04:11:21,280 --> 04:11:24,600
but within the state, the area formed by the permanent

4415
04:11:24,639 --> 04:11:29,120
professional civil service, the armed forces, and the police. The

4416
04:11:29,159 --> 04:11:31,879
aim is to detach the permanent employees of the state

4417
04:11:31,920 --> 04:11:35,280
from the political leadership, and usually this cannot be done

4418
04:11:35,280 --> 04:11:39,680
if the two are linked by political, ethnic, or traditional loyalties.

4419
04:11:42,399 --> 04:11:45,319
I don't know that people saw, like when you read

4420
04:11:45,360 --> 04:11:50,639
that last paragraph, how clearly you can see what he

4421
04:11:50,719 --> 04:11:53,760
talks about with The aim is to detach to permanent employees,

4422
04:11:53,799 --> 04:11:56,799
which would we would call the deep state now, from

4423
04:11:56,840 --> 04:12:00,040
the political leadership, and usually this cannot be done. I

4424
04:12:00,040 --> 04:12:04,520
don't know that when he wrote this, it was even sure.

4425
04:12:04,719 --> 04:12:08,120
Burnham had written the manager or Revolution thirty years thirty

4426
04:12:08,120 --> 04:12:12,360
three years earlier, or thirty years earlier, But I don't

4427
04:12:12,399 --> 04:12:19,000
know that that was as widely understood as it is now.

4428
04:12:19,040 --> 04:12:24,079
The fact that we're basically run by managerialism.

4429
04:12:24,200 --> 04:12:29,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting given that the people who kind

4430
04:12:29,399 --> 04:12:32,760
of put over that revolution, were quite explicit about their

4431
04:12:32,799 --> 04:12:37,600
goal in doing that, in detaching political authority and government machinery. Right,

4432
04:12:37,680 --> 04:12:40,399
if you go back to like the late eighteen hundreds,

4433
04:12:41,559 --> 04:12:46,360
most American cities, local and even state governments, which the

4434
04:12:46,399 --> 04:12:48,680
federal government was much smaller and weaker back then, so

4435
04:12:48,719 --> 04:12:51,600
that meant most of government in America, you know, it

4436
04:12:51,600 --> 04:12:56,280
was run by ethnic patronage networks that sort of emerged

4437
04:12:56,680 --> 04:12:59,680
more or less organically as a way of organizing people

4438
04:13:00,159 --> 04:13:06,000
for political activity. And the Progressive movement was a very explicit,

4439
04:13:06,040 --> 04:13:08,639
you know, the Good Government Movement, very explicit sort of

4440
04:13:08,719 --> 04:13:13,639
attack on those patronage networks. And you know, you can

4441
04:13:13,680 --> 04:13:16,920
take that all the way up to like like Colonel

4442
04:13:16,920 --> 04:13:21,000
House's book, or all the way eventually in the apotheosis

4443
04:13:21,040 --> 04:13:23,559
obviously in the New Deal Revolution when that all really

4444
04:13:23,600 --> 04:13:27,840
came together, and they're quite explicit about it. But for

4445
04:13:27,879 --> 04:13:31,000
some reason, Yeah, it's something that's that's been lost a

4446
04:13:31,000 --> 04:13:35,319
bit today. You know, when you when we were kids,

4447
04:13:35,360 --> 04:13:39,040
we watched Schoolhouse Rock. They had that little commercial, you know,

4448
04:13:39,200 --> 04:13:42,280
where there's like the piece of paper and he's like, hey, folks,

4449
04:13:42,319 --> 04:13:45,120
I'm a bill and here's how I get passed. There's

4450
04:13:45,159 --> 04:13:47,920
three branches of government and so forth, and like you know,

4451
04:13:47,959 --> 04:13:52,280
and this is how your government works, and that you know,

4452
04:13:52,399 --> 04:13:54,840
that's that's not how the government works at all, right,

4453
04:13:54,920 --> 04:13:57,280
I mean the government ninety nine percent of the government

4454
04:13:57,280 --> 04:14:00,280
and certainly all of the functional parts of the government,

4455
04:14:00,479 --> 04:14:05,760
the ones that actually take action. It's this unelected bureaucracy

4456
04:14:05,799 --> 04:14:09,799
that that that's purpose is to be completely detached from

4457
04:14:09,840 --> 04:14:13,719
political authority, which is to say, you know, quote, you know,

4458
04:14:13,799 --> 04:14:16,680
in an ideal world, or if our system worked the

4459
04:14:16,680 --> 04:14:18,360
way it was supposed to, which is to say that

4460
04:14:18,760 --> 04:14:23,840
it's detached from accountability from from the you know, the population.

4461
04:14:25,479 --> 04:14:29,840
Speaker 1: All right onward. In the last dynasty of Imperial China,

4462
04:14:30,040 --> 04:14:32,760
as in present day African states, it was primarily an

4463
04:14:32,760 --> 04:14:35,719
ethnic bond that secured the loyalty of the state apparatus.

4464
04:14:36,000 --> 04:14:39,920
The Manchu dynasty was careful to follow native Chinese customs,

4465
04:14:40,200 --> 04:14:42,760
and it employed Han Chinese in the civil service at

4466
04:14:42,760 --> 04:14:49,520
all levels, but the crucial posts in the high magistracy, magistracy,

4467
04:14:50,120 --> 04:14:52,639
and the army were filled by the descendants of the

4468
04:14:53,360 --> 04:14:57,559
Jurchens who had entered China with their chiefs the founders

4469
04:14:57,559 --> 04:15:01,840
of the dynasty. Similarly, after and rulers typically appoint members

4470
04:15:01,920 --> 04:15:04,120
of their own tribe to the key posts in the

4471
04:15:04,239 --> 04:15:09,600
armed forces, police and security services. When a party machine

4472
04:15:09,639 --> 04:15:12,799
controls civil service appointments, either as part of a more

4473
04:15:12,879 --> 04:15:16,360
general totalitarian control or because of a very long period

4474
04:15:16,360 --> 04:15:19,799
in office, as in postwar Italy till the late nineteen eighties,

4475
04:15:20,319 --> 04:15:24,040
political associates are appointed to the senior levels of the bureaucracy,

4476
04:15:24,479 --> 04:15:26,959
partly in order to protect the regime and partly to

4477
04:15:27,079 --> 04:15:31,879
ensure the sympathetic execution of policies. In the communist countries

4478
04:15:31,920 --> 04:15:35,639
of yesteryear, all senior jobs were of course held by

4479
04:15:35,680 --> 04:15:42,399
party appoatrics. Saudi Arabia provides an instance of traditional bonds.

4480
04:15:42,879 --> 04:15:45,200
In this case, the lack of modern know how on

4481
04:15:45,280 --> 04:15:47,799
the part of the traditional tribal affiliates of the royal

4482
04:15:47,840 --> 04:15:51,399
house has meant that what could not be done individually

4483
04:15:51,520 --> 04:15:55,399
has been done organizationally. The modern army, manned by some

4484
04:15:55,440 --> 04:15:59,159
one hundred thousand unreliable city dwellers, is outnumbered by one

4485
04:15:59,200 --> 04:16:01,760
hundred and twenty five thousand or so enrolled in the

4486
04:16:01,760 --> 04:16:05,079
White Army of the Bedouin, or at least nominally be

4487
04:16:05,959 --> 04:16:09,799
followers of the Saudis officially known as the Haras al

4488
04:16:09,879 --> 04:16:14,040
Watshani Guard of the Homeland or National Guard, the so

4489
04:16:14,120 --> 04:16:16,879
called the White Army. It includes a tribal militia of

4490
04:16:16,920 --> 04:16:22,559
some twenty five thousand official official officially designated the Iman

4491
04:16:23,079 --> 04:16:29,239
Imam Muhammad bin Saud Mechanized Brigade based in the capital

4492
04:16:29,280 --> 04:16:33,319
of Riad and plainly ment as an anti coup force.

4493
04:16:34,079 --> 04:16:35,040
Have you been to Saudi?

4494
04:16:37,319 --> 04:16:39,680
Speaker 2: I have been to Riyad once and other than that,

4495
04:16:39,799 --> 04:16:43,200
I got stuck on a tarmac and a helicopter in

4496
04:16:43,200 --> 04:16:45,680
one hundred and twenty degree heat for about eight hours

4497
04:16:45,680 --> 04:16:46,239
one time.

4498
04:16:49,600 --> 04:16:53,639
Speaker 1: I keep going. Such ethnic or traditional bonds between the

4499
04:16:53,639 --> 04:16:56,200
political leadership and the heads of the bureaucracy and the

4500
04:16:56,319 --> 04:16:59,399
armed forces are not typical of the modern state, while

4501
04:16:59,440 --> 04:17:03,159
looser or ethnic affiliations will tend to embrace groups large

4502
04:17:03,280 --> 04:17:06,479
enough to be successfully infiltrated by the planners of the

4503
04:17:06,520 --> 04:17:10,799
coup as a direct consequence of its sheer size. In

4504
04:17:10,920 --> 04:17:14,559
order to achieve even a minimum of efficiency, the state

4505
04:17:14,600 --> 04:17:17,440
bureaucracy has to divide its work into clear cut areas

4506
04:17:17,440 --> 04:17:22,600
of competence, which are assigned to different departments. Within each department,

4507
04:17:22,920 --> 04:17:25,520
there must be an accepted chain of command and standard

4508
04:17:25,520 --> 04:17:29,000
procedures have to be followed. Thus, a given piece of

4509
04:17:29,000 --> 04:17:31,639
information or a given order is followed up in a

4510
04:17:31,680 --> 04:17:35,159
stereotyped manner, and if the order comes from the appropriate

4511
04:17:35,280 --> 04:17:40,079
source at the appropriate level, it is carried out. In

4512
04:17:40,159 --> 04:17:43,319
the more critical parts of the state apparatus, the armed forces,

4513
04:17:43,479 --> 04:17:47,079
the police, and the security services, all these characteristics are

4514
04:17:47,079 --> 04:17:50,559
intensified with an even greater degree of discipline and rigidity.

4515
04:17:51,399 --> 04:17:55,239
The apparatus of this state is, therefore, to some extent,

4516
04:17:55,319 --> 04:17:58,840
a machine that will normally behave in a fairly predictable

4517
04:17:58,879 --> 04:18:05,719
and automatic miss manner. What happens if it stops operating

4518
04:18:05,719 --> 04:18:07,680
in a predictable and automatic manner?

4519
04:18:08,959 --> 04:18:11,559
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think what Luboks saying here is that,

4520
04:18:11,639 --> 04:18:15,239
you know, he's pointing out that I think he's probably

4521
04:18:15,239 --> 04:18:18,920
setting up to defend his thesis that you can actually speak,

4522
04:18:19,319 --> 04:18:22,840
for lack of a better word, like scientifically about these processes.

4523
04:18:23,479 --> 04:18:26,520
You know that this is something that that that these

4524
04:18:26,559 --> 04:18:29,639
are systems that have certain rules and laws and guidelines

4525
04:18:29,680 --> 04:18:32,360
that they run by, and so you can actually speak

4526
04:18:32,360 --> 04:18:35,399
about them in general terms. But what happens if they

4527
04:18:35,440 --> 04:18:39,239
start if they stop reacting in a predictable manner? I mean,

4528
04:18:39,280 --> 04:18:42,440
at that point you're very very very close to the edge.

4529
04:18:42,719 --> 04:18:47,760
You know, the whole uh, the whole purpose of that.

4530
04:18:47,840 --> 04:18:51,440
I mean, if you think about the base level of

4531
04:18:52,360 --> 04:18:54,760
all government, right, and maybe this has something to do

4532
04:18:54,840 --> 04:19:02,440
with Weber's traditional you know, patrimony based system of authority,

4533
04:19:02,479 --> 04:19:05,959
but at the bottom of it is whoever can provide

4534
04:19:06,600 --> 04:19:11,159
physical security and whoever can distribute resources that people need

4535
04:19:11,200 --> 04:19:14,200
to live or secure and distribute those resources, then that's

4536
04:19:14,239 --> 04:19:17,680
gonna that's the government in time. Like it might not

4537
04:19:17,719 --> 04:19:20,079
be today, but eventually, if the government that you think

4538
04:19:20,120 --> 04:19:23,239
you have can't do those things, then that's not gonna

4539
04:19:23,239 --> 04:19:24,879
be the government for long. You know. You see this

4540
04:19:25,040 --> 04:19:28,280
with like terrorist organ I mean we had to come

4541
04:19:28,319 --> 04:19:30,719
to terms with this, Like in Iraq for example, right

4542
04:19:30,760 --> 04:19:34,319
when we went into Iraq, people really did go in

4543
04:19:34,360 --> 04:19:38,040
with all of these for all the cynicism of the

4544
04:19:38,079 --> 04:19:41,520
neo cons and everything, like these people when they you know,

4545
04:19:41,559 --> 04:19:45,440
they really had sort of pioped themselves into believing that

4546
04:19:46,360 --> 04:19:49,840
the people of the world are just Americans in embryo.

4547
04:19:49,920 --> 04:19:52,159
And as soon as they're given the opportunity we get

4548
04:19:52,239 --> 04:19:54,479
rid of at Am Hussein or whoever, then they're gonna

4549
04:19:54,520 --> 04:19:57,040
throw roses at our feet and be happy to become

4550
04:19:57,440 --> 04:20:00,600
because they were thinking of you know, Poland in nineteen

4551
04:20:00,639 --> 04:20:03,799
eighty nine, you know, Czechoslovakia in nineteen eighty nine, like

4552
04:20:04,040 --> 04:20:06,280
just take that boot off their neck, and they want

4553
04:20:06,319 --> 04:20:09,360
to wear blue jeans and basically be Americans, like if

4554
04:20:09,399 --> 04:20:11,559
they're given the opportunity, And they really did sigh off

4555
04:20:11,600 --> 04:20:14,760
themselves into believing that to a degree. But then once

4556
04:20:14,799 --> 04:20:17,639
we got in there, we had to deal with the

4557
04:20:17,719 --> 04:20:22,360
reality which the terrorist organization, the insurgents understood much better

4558
04:20:22,399 --> 04:20:24,840
than we did it first, which was, you know, they

4559
04:20:24,920 --> 04:20:29,040
knew that if they could prove that the Americans could

4560
04:20:29,079 --> 04:20:33,959
not protect you, could not provide physical security, and that

4561
04:20:34,520 --> 04:20:37,120
the Americans weren't able to ensure that you and your

4562
04:20:37,159 --> 04:20:41,360
family could eat or have water or then we weren't

4563
04:20:42,040 --> 04:20:44,680
going to be governing that country for very long, you know.

4564
04:20:45,000 --> 04:20:47,799
And the people who are capable of turning those things,

4565
04:20:47,879 --> 04:20:50,799
the violence spigot or the resource pigot on and off,

4566
04:20:50,840 --> 04:20:53,520
if the insurgents, through violence could make that be them,

4567
04:20:53,879 --> 04:20:56,879
then they would, you know, replace us. And they understood

4568
04:20:56,920 --> 04:20:59,000
that we had to kind of we had to kind

4569
04:20:59,040 --> 04:21:01,120
of adapt to that, and we got to the point

4570
04:21:01,760 --> 04:21:03,840
once you got up to like six o seven, where

4571
04:21:03,879 --> 04:21:07,040
we did kind of just accept that, you know, Betraeus

4572
04:21:07,079 --> 04:21:09,239
went out with like hundreds of millions of dollars and

4573
04:21:09,280 --> 04:21:12,639
just started paying off tribal cheeks. Not so much so that,

4574
04:21:12,760 --> 04:21:15,360
you know, it wasn't so that they could go stuff

4575
04:21:15,360 --> 04:21:17,760
it in their Swiss bank account and flee the country

4576
04:21:17,799 --> 04:21:20,159
if things go bad later on. It was so that

4577
04:21:20,399 --> 04:21:24,120
we were conferring upon them the legitimacy they needed as

4578
04:21:24,600 --> 04:21:27,680
distributors of resources. You know, they could actually give their

4579
04:21:27,719 --> 04:21:32,879
people things that they needed, while we provided physical security

4580
04:21:32,920 --> 04:21:34,959
to actually get them on our side. You know. It's

4581
04:21:35,000 --> 04:21:37,840
that's that's like really the fundamental kind of base level

4582
04:21:37,840 --> 04:21:40,920
of all of all government and so at that. I mean,

4583
04:21:41,200 --> 04:21:45,479
in that sense, if it started starts acting unpredictably at

4584
04:21:45,479 --> 04:21:47,639
that point, then you're already in a period of you know,

4585
04:21:47,719 --> 04:21:48,879
of severe breakdown.

4586
04:21:50,280 --> 04:21:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember a couple of years ago, my friend

4587
04:21:53,360 --> 04:21:57,000
Rachel and I were discussing, texting back and forth asking about, well,

4588
04:21:57,040 --> 04:22:00,280
if everything collapsed, who's in charge? And she said, well,

4589
04:22:00,319 --> 04:22:02,760
obviously whoever can feed whoever can feed you.

4590
04:22:04,200 --> 04:22:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I mean that's you know, I think if

4591
04:22:07,040 --> 04:22:10,280
you go back even to the just the origins of

4592
04:22:10,360 --> 04:22:15,360
human government, you know, once you get past the sort

4593
04:22:15,360 --> 04:22:18,799
of band level of organization, you know, where the guy

4594
04:22:18,840 --> 04:22:23,559
in charge is your grandfather or whatever. You see this,

4595
04:22:23,680 --> 04:22:25,760
I mean, it's built into our myths. You see it

4596
04:22:25,799 --> 04:22:28,120
in history where you know, where we have access to

4597
04:22:28,159 --> 04:22:30,520
it is that the basic form of government is a

4598
04:22:30,559 --> 04:22:34,000
warrior and his friends. You know, if you're a farmer

4599
04:22:34,319 --> 04:22:36,719
and you're out here and you have a bunch of

4600
04:22:36,840 --> 04:22:42,120
lions terrorizing your livestock, and you know, threatening your children

4601
04:22:42,159 --> 04:22:44,799
when they go outside, and it's a pack of lions,

4602
04:22:44,799 --> 04:22:48,799
and you're a farmer, you know, in the days before firearms,

4603
04:22:48,840 --> 04:22:51,079
you know, that's a real problem for you. In fact,

4604
04:22:51,120 --> 04:22:53,360
that's like a that's a that's a life or death

4605
04:22:53,399 --> 04:22:55,399
problem for you, not just whether or not you get

4606
04:22:55,440 --> 04:22:57,479
killed by a lion, but whether you can actually do

4607
04:22:57,520 --> 04:23:00,239
the things you need to do to eat. So a

4608
04:23:00,280 --> 04:23:02,120
guy shows up on a horse with six of his

4609
04:23:02,239 --> 04:23:04,440
friends and says, where are the lions there? That way?

4610
04:23:04,479 --> 04:23:08,440
And he goes and kills those lions. That dude's in charge.

4611
04:23:08,520 --> 04:23:12,760
And you're fine with that, you know, And that's a

4612
04:23:12,879 --> 04:23:15,840
legitimate basis of human government in a lot of ways.

4613
04:23:17,200 --> 04:23:20,319
Speaker 1: All right, A coup operates by taking advantage of this

4614
04:23:20,479 --> 04:23:25,120
machine like behavior both during and after the takeover. During

4615
04:23:25,159 --> 04:23:27,959
the coup, because it uses parts of the state apparatus

4616
04:23:28,000 --> 04:23:31,840
to seize the controlling levers, over the rest and afterward,

4617
04:23:31,920 --> 04:23:34,760
because the value of the levers depends on the degree

4618
04:23:34,879 --> 04:23:39,000
to which the state really functions as a machine. We

4619
04:23:39,040 --> 04:23:41,719
will see that some states are so well organized that

4620
04:23:41,760 --> 04:23:46,280
the machine is sufficiently sophisticated to exercise discretion according to

4621
04:23:46,360 --> 04:23:48,879
a given conception of what is proper and what is

4622
04:23:48,920 --> 04:23:52,639
not in the orders that it executes. This is the

4623
04:23:52,719 --> 04:23:56,680
case in the most advanced countries, and in such circumstances

4624
04:23:56,799 --> 04:24:00,559
a coup is very difficult to carry out. In a

4625
04:24:00,559 --> 04:24:03,719
few states, the bureaucracy is so small that the apparatus

4626
04:24:03,760 --> 04:24:07,280
is too simple and too intimately linked with the leadership

4627
04:24:07,319 --> 04:24:10,879
to allow room for a coup, as as is still

4628
04:24:10,920 --> 04:24:15,639
the case perhaps in the ex British protectorates of Southern Africa, Botswana,

4629
04:24:16,000 --> 04:24:22,120
Lesotho and Swaziland. Fortunately, most states are between those two extremes,

4630
04:24:22,399 --> 04:24:26,719
with bureaucratic machines both large and unsophisticated, and thus highly

4631
04:24:26,879 --> 04:24:30,479
vulnerable to those who can identify and seize the right levers.

4632
04:24:32,959 --> 04:24:35,559
One of the most striking developments of the twentieth century

4633
04:24:35,719 --> 04:24:39,559
was the great decline in general political stability. Since the

4634
04:24:39,559 --> 04:24:43,959
French Revolution, governments have been overthrown at an increasing pace.

4635
04:24:44,639 --> 04:24:47,920
In the nineteenth century, the French experienced two revolutions and

4636
04:24:48,000 --> 04:24:53,079
two regimes collapsed. Following the military defeat in nineteen fifty eight,

4637
04:24:53,120 --> 04:24:55,719
the change of regime that brought Charles de gaul to

4638
04:24:55,920 --> 04:24:59,760
enduring power was a blend of those elements. People every

4639
04:24:59,799 --> 04:25:02,760
whe have followed the French example, and the lifespan of

4640
04:25:02,799 --> 04:25:05,520
regimes has tended to decrease while the life span of

4641
04:25:05,559 --> 04:25:10,840
their subjects has increased. This contrast sharply with the relative

4642
04:25:10,840 --> 04:25:14,479
attachments to the system of constitutional monarchy displayed in the

4643
04:25:14,559 --> 04:25:19,079
nineteenth century. When Greeks, Bulgarians and Romanians secured their freedom

4644
04:25:19,120 --> 04:25:22,360
from the Turkish colonial system, they immediately went over to

4645
04:25:22,479 --> 04:25:27,440
Germany in order to shop around for a suitable royal family. Crowns,

4646
04:25:27,559 --> 04:25:32,520
flags and decorations were designed and purchased from reputable English suppliers.

4647
04:25:33,280 --> 04:25:37,520
Royal palaces were built, and where possible, hunting lodges, royal

4648
04:25:37,600 --> 04:25:42,479
mistresses and a local aristocracy were provided as fringe benefits.

4649
04:25:44,760 --> 04:25:47,799
Twentieth century peoples have on the other hand, showed a

4650
04:25:47,840 --> 04:25:51,559
marked lack of interest in monarchies in their paraphernalia when

4651
04:25:51,600 --> 04:25:54,440
the British kindly provided them with a proper royal family.

4652
04:25:54,920 --> 04:25:58,639
Unhappy Iraqis made numerous efforts to dispense with it before

4653
04:25:58,680 --> 04:26:03,360
finally succeeding by mass in nineteen fifty eight. Military and

4654
04:26:03,399 --> 04:26:06,760
other right wing forces have meanwhile tried to keep up

4655
04:26:06,760 --> 04:26:10,280
with violent mass movements, using their own illegal methods to

4656
04:26:10,319 --> 04:26:15,719
seize power and overthrow regimes. Why did the regimes of

4657
04:26:15,719 --> 04:26:19,079
the twentieth century prove to be so fragile? It is,

4658
04:26:19,120 --> 04:26:23,319
after all, paradoxical that this fragility increased while the established

4659
04:26:23,319 --> 04:26:27,319
procedures for securing changes in government were becoming more flexible.

4660
04:26:28,079 --> 04:26:31,680
The political scientists will reply that although the procedures became

4661
04:26:31,719 --> 04:26:35,600
more flexible, the pressures for change were also becoming stronger,

4662
04:26:35,959 --> 04:26:38,719
and the increase in flexibility did not keep up with

4663
04:26:38,760 --> 04:26:45,520
the increased social and economic stresses. Violent metho you want

4664
04:26:45,520 --> 04:26:45,879
to say.

4665
04:26:45,840 --> 04:26:47,879
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I actually wanted to go back a little

4666
04:26:47,879 --> 04:26:52,360
bit too. I was thinking about when he was talking

4667
04:26:52,360 --> 04:26:54,760
about you know that you have to kind of have

4668
04:26:54,840 --> 04:26:59,920
this Goldilock's bureaucracy, right, this goldilocks state where it is

4669
04:27:01,479 --> 04:27:05,120
developed enough that it's worth taking the reins of you know,

4670
04:27:05,200 --> 04:27:07,520
if you that if you get the control of it,

4671
04:27:07,680 --> 04:27:10,639
then you actually have power that you know, it's developed

4672
04:27:10,719 --> 04:27:14,079
enough for that, but that it's not so mature that

4673
04:27:15,120 --> 04:27:18,840
it can exercise self will you know, if it doesn't

4674
04:27:18,920 --> 04:27:21,239
like who the leader is or what the leader wants

4675
04:27:21,280 --> 04:27:25,440
to do. And you know, there's a there's a sense

4676
04:27:25,479 --> 04:27:30,079
in which if you think of like the National Socialist

4677
04:27:30,120 --> 04:27:33,159
Revolution in Germany, you know, obviously that wasn't a coup

4678
04:27:33,239 --> 04:27:35,520
or kup atah or anything, but it really was like

4679
04:27:35,559 --> 04:27:37,479
a I mean, it was a revolution and the system

4680
04:27:37,520 --> 04:27:40,559
of government there for sure that if you were to

4681
04:27:40,600 --> 04:27:45,479
go back, you know before that, well it was something

4682
04:27:45,479 --> 04:27:50,159
that like it like not understanding this. The this part,

4683
04:27:50,440 --> 04:27:52,520
I think kind of led to it was part of

4684
04:27:52,559 --> 04:27:58,680
what led to the conflict that eventually emerged between the

4685
04:27:58,719 --> 04:28:03,639
regime and the sort of the old school hardcore revolutionaries

4686
04:28:03,639 --> 04:28:06,600
of like the Essay for example, right, because once Hitler

4687
04:28:06,639 --> 04:28:09,479
got into power, he had to he had to deal

4688
04:28:09,520 --> 04:28:13,719
with the fact that this machinery existed that he was

4689
04:28:13,760 --> 04:28:16,719
now at the controls of that he had to compromise

4690
04:28:16,799 --> 04:28:20,319
with on someone you know, because it was developed enough

4691
04:28:20,520 --> 04:28:23,120
to resist anything he wanted to do if he couldn't

4692
04:28:23,159 --> 04:28:24,680
co opt it like that, and he had to make

4693
04:28:24,719 --> 04:28:29,799
certain compromises to accommodate it. And you know, the ernst

4694
04:28:29,840 --> 04:28:32,440
Rome's of the world and stuff. These were hardcore, like

4695
04:28:32,479 --> 04:28:34,639
street revolutionaries, and they didn't like that. And you see

4696
04:28:34,639 --> 04:28:36,559
that in a lot of these revolutions, and it's why,

4697
04:28:37,239 --> 04:28:41,079
you know, in revolutions all over the world throughout the

4698
04:28:41,079 --> 04:28:45,159
twentieth century, the first thing that happens is the revolutionary

4699
04:28:45,200 --> 04:28:47,840
seized control of the government. And the second thing that

4700
04:28:47,959 --> 04:28:51,200
happens is most of the revolutionaries get killed off by

4701
04:28:51,200 --> 04:28:52,319
the boss. You know.

4702
04:28:54,440 --> 04:28:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and if you study you know, if you study

4703
04:28:59,120 --> 04:29:02,399
the rise of then socialists and they're taking power, it's

4704
04:29:02,440 --> 04:29:06,159
pretty clear why Thomas went over that. We did a

4705
04:29:06,159 --> 04:29:10,559
whole episode on that, and he just liked that. I

4706
04:29:10,600 --> 04:29:13,280
from a real politic standpoint, it's like, yeah, these are

4707
04:29:13,280 --> 04:29:15,879
the guys who brought you here. But I mean, some

4708
04:29:16,559 --> 04:29:19,040
of these guys just they weren't going to be along

4709
04:29:19,079 --> 04:29:20,799
for the ride and they were not going to let

4710
04:29:20,840 --> 04:29:21,440
go on their own.

4711
04:29:22,000 --> 04:29:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a this is a total off topic

4712
04:29:26,559 --> 04:29:28,639
digression real quick, but I'm just going to throw it

4713
04:29:28,639 --> 04:29:30,479
out there in case you have anybody who wants to

4714
04:29:30,520 --> 04:29:32,600
pick this one up, Like if I was if I

4715
04:29:32,639 --> 04:29:35,280
had any talent as a fiction writer, like as a novelist,

4716
04:29:35,680 --> 04:29:37,719
you know, the book I would write. I would love

4717
04:29:37,799 --> 04:29:43,399
to read a book that is about It's a biography

4718
04:29:43,479 --> 04:29:47,719
or a mini biography of the period of Hitler's life

4719
04:29:48,360 --> 04:29:50,879
from the rise to power, like through the twenties, you know,

4720
04:29:51,079 --> 04:29:55,399
from the Puts and on its way up, all the

4721
04:29:55,399 --> 04:29:58,479
way up and ends in nineteen thirty four when he

4722
04:29:58,559 --> 04:30:01,239
had to kill Rome and a of these essay guys,

4723
04:30:01,879 --> 04:30:05,559
and just the inner turmoil that he had to have

4724
04:30:05,600 --> 04:30:09,000
gone through, you know, having to having to take out, uh,

4725
04:30:09,239 --> 04:30:11,159
so many of the people who had you know, been

4726
04:30:11,280 --> 04:30:13,200
who had ridden with him up to that point and

4727
04:30:13,280 --> 04:30:16,120
been through everything with him, and coming to the conclusion

4728
04:30:16,879 --> 04:30:19,840
and having to carry out uh something that you know

4729
04:30:20,120 --> 04:30:23,840
that was necessary but but maybe very distasteful to him.

4730
04:30:23,840 --> 04:30:25,399
I think I would. I think that would be a

4731
04:30:25,399 --> 04:30:26,040
great story.

4732
04:30:27,360 --> 04:30:32,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think most people, uh most people hear that

4733
04:30:32,760 --> 04:30:36,000
story just think he was an absolute mad man and

4734
04:30:36,079 --> 04:30:40,959
done taken a consideration, you know, what he thought, what

4735
04:30:41,040 --> 04:30:44,600
he believed was coming, and what needed and you know

4736
04:30:45,159 --> 04:30:47,040
what the what the fight was actually going to be,

4737
04:30:47,120 --> 04:30:52,920
and well, yeah, well let's go, let's go on. We

4738
04:30:52,920 --> 04:30:56,360
we get detorted on that one for a while, all right.

4739
04:30:58,200 --> 04:31:01,520
Violent methods are generally used when legal methods of securing

4740
04:31:01,600 --> 04:31:05,520
a governmental change are useless because they are either too rigid,

4741
04:31:05,799 --> 04:31:08,159
as in the case of ruling monarchies where the ruler

4742
04:31:08,239 --> 04:31:12,879
actually controls policy formation, or not rigid enough. It was

4743
04:31:12,920 --> 04:31:16,000
once remarked, for example, that the throne of Russia was,

4744
04:31:16,360 --> 04:31:22,559
until the seventeenth century neither hereditary nor elective, but occupative occupative.

4745
04:31:23,920 --> 04:31:29,920
The long series of abdications forced by the Great Boyar

4746
04:31:30,040 --> 04:31:36,079
landlords and the Streltsi the Kremlin Palace guards had weakened

4747
04:31:36,079 --> 04:31:39,680
the hereditary principle so that whoever took the throne became czar.

4748
04:31:40,280 --> 04:31:44,920
Precedents by birth counted for little. Some contemporary republics have

4749
04:31:45,040 --> 04:31:47,719
ended up in this position, which comes about when a

4750
04:31:47,719 --> 04:31:50,680
long series of illegal seizures of power leads to a

4751
04:31:50,719 --> 04:31:54,399
decay of the legal and political structures needed to produce

4752
04:31:54,479 --> 04:31:58,360
new governments. Thus Syria went through more than a dozen

4753
04:31:58,440 --> 04:32:02,440
coups before the Assad family dynasty was established by Hafez

4754
04:32:02,559 --> 04:32:06,399
A la Sad's nineteen seventy coup, and the provisions for

4755
04:32:06,520 --> 04:32:12,000
all open general elections written in the Harani Constitution could

4756
04:32:12,159 --> 04:32:16,799
no longer be applied because the necessary supervisory machinery decayed

4757
04:32:16,799 --> 04:32:21,120
and disappeared. Assuming, however, that there is an established procedure

4758
04:32:21,159 --> 04:32:24,879
for changing the leadership, that all other methods must fall

4759
04:32:25,000 --> 04:32:29,479
within some category of illegality. What we call them depends

4760
04:32:29,479 --> 04:32:32,639
on what side we are on, but skipping some of

4761
04:32:32,639 --> 04:32:37,760
the details, we use one of the following terms. All right,

4762
04:32:37,840 --> 04:32:40,200
so a bunch of lists of terms here, though with

4763
04:32:40,520 --> 04:32:43,479
brief explanations. Revolution.

4764
04:32:43,920 --> 04:32:45,799
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, I was just going to jump in real

4765
04:32:45,840 --> 04:32:51,040
quick and say, like, you know, there's a look the

4766
04:32:51,079 --> 04:32:55,280
obvious geopolitical reason that the post colonial states in the

4767
04:32:55,280 --> 04:32:59,440
twentieth century were the places where, you know, coups happened

4768
04:32:59,440 --> 04:33:02,079
more than any their places. One part of its geopolitical

4769
04:33:02,120 --> 04:33:06,080
and it's obvious, right that was the those are the

4770
04:33:06,080 --> 04:33:08,439
places that were up for grabs in the Cold War, right,

4771
04:33:08,479 --> 04:33:10,840
and so they had both sides sort of vuying for them,

4772
04:33:11,639 --> 04:33:15,159
but also from like a lootwalk perspective, you know, it's

4773
04:33:15,200 --> 04:33:17,959
interesting because they those those were the countries that kind

4774
04:33:17,959 --> 04:33:21,240
of fit the model that he's talking about here the

4775
04:33:21,279 --> 04:33:24,759
best in the sense that you had these say in Africa,

4776
04:33:24,840 --> 04:33:28,639
you had these countries that really were only countries because

4777
04:33:29,000 --> 04:33:31,759
the French and the British drew some lines on a map.

4778
04:33:31,840 --> 04:33:32,000
Speaker 1: Right.

4779
04:33:32,040 --> 04:33:36,240
Speaker 2: That's why it's a country that has a state machinery

4780
04:33:36,599 --> 04:33:40,159
that is somewhat well developed because it was either left

4781
04:33:40,159 --> 04:33:45,119
in place or put in place as the colonizers were leaving.

4782
04:33:45,720 --> 04:33:48,119
And so there's this machinery that can kind of run

4783
04:33:48,159 --> 04:33:52,360
the country, kind can kind of defend itself against interlopers

4784
04:33:52,360 --> 04:33:55,799
and so forth. It exists and whoever controls it, you know,

4785
04:33:56,040 --> 04:33:59,200
is sort of in charge. But there's no you know,

4786
04:33:59,240 --> 04:34:02,279
the population itself is just broken up into tribes. They

4787
04:34:02,279 --> 04:34:05,479
don't identify with each other. There's no nation underlying this thing.

4788
04:34:05,520 --> 04:34:09,720
In other words, the power of structure doesn't actually represent

4789
04:34:10,400 --> 04:34:13,639
any organic power. It's just this thing that's there that's

4790
04:34:13,639 --> 04:34:16,680
sort of that that's sort of imposed on people. It's

4791
04:34:16,720 --> 04:34:20,639
not it's not representative of anything that really like on

4792
04:34:20,720 --> 04:34:23,639
the ground. Right, Like if you look at Afghanistan, for example,

4793
04:34:24,360 --> 04:34:26,799
you know, there are people who are we going to

4794
04:34:26,840 --> 04:34:29,279
call them geniuses or anything. There's people with basic common

4795
04:34:29,319 --> 04:34:31,240
sense who back in two thousand and one we're saying,

4796
04:34:31,240 --> 04:34:33,360
this is a this is just never going to work

4797
04:34:33,400 --> 04:34:36,040
in the long term for the very simple reason that

4798
04:34:36,080 --> 04:34:38,560
the Northern Alliance, all these people that like, we're going

4799
04:34:38,560 --> 04:34:42,560
over there and wanting to ally with that, these people,

4800
04:34:42,799 --> 04:34:44,840
it's a it's a big coalition of all the different

4801
04:34:44,840 --> 04:34:48,240
minority groups in Afghanistan, and you want to bring this

4802
04:34:48,319 --> 04:34:51,200
coalition together. They have nothing in common. They really don't have,

4803
04:34:51,680 --> 04:34:55,959
you know, any anything that they share other than their

4804
04:34:56,240 --> 04:35:00,799
opposition to the postune majority. And so it's going to

4805
04:35:00,840 --> 04:35:04,040
make them completely dependent on the United States occupation forces.

4806
04:35:04,040 --> 04:35:07,080
And once that occupation forces leave, whether it's now, whether

4807
04:35:07,080 --> 04:35:10,520
it's in a hundred years, those people are are going

4808
04:35:10,599 --> 04:35:14,279
to scatter to the winds because the real power, the

4809
04:35:14,479 --> 04:35:17,479
organic power in this country is the postune majority that

4810
04:35:17,639 --> 04:35:21,279
is organized under the Taliban, and you know, and that's

4811
04:35:21,639 --> 04:35:23,840
real power, whether or not, whether or not they are

4812
04:35:23,880 --> 04:35:27,240
represented in the government or not. Usually, uh, you know,

4813
04:35:27,360 --> 04:35:29,680
reality wins out. And so you have a lot of

4814
04:35:29,680 --> 04:35:33,000
these African countries and other post colonial countries that had

4815
04:35:33,000 --> 04:35:37,000
that state machinery with nothing underneath it. And even a

4816
04:35:37,000 --> 04:35:39,720
place like Liberia. Liberia is actually a great example because

4817
04:35:39,720 --> 04:35:42,159
it was never a colony. You know, it was like

4818
04:35:42,759 --> 04:35:46,159
you had essentially like Monrovia was like a city state

4819
04:35:46,759 --> 04:35:49,319
where you know, a bunch of former American slaves had

4820
04:35:49,360 --> 04:35:51,759
gone to had gone to live. And they never really

4821
04:35:51,840 --> 04:35:55,319
even left Monrovia or the immediate environs of Monrovia much.

4822
04:35:55,360 --> 04:35:58,599
They didn't go out to the hinterlands, you know, or anything.

4823
04:35:59,119 --> 04:36:01,400
But then once the Wrench in the British really started

4824
04:36:01,400 --> 04:36:05,840
to get on their colonization spree in Africa, we started

4825
04:36:05,840 --> 04:36:09,840
putting pressure on the Americo Liberians in Monrovio. We're like,

4826
04:36:09,880 --> 04:36:11,799
you need to become a country. You can't just be

4827
04:36:11,840 --> 04:36:13,680
a city state. We need you to form the country

4828
04:36:14,240 --> 04:36:16,880
of Liberia, and we're going to define its borders so

4829
04:36:16,919 --> 04:36:19,360
that we can say to the French and British, like,

4830
04:36:19,479 --> 04:36:21,200
you can't come in here, you have to stay out

4831
04:36:21,240 --> 04:36:23,720
of this area. And so they did, and they went

4832
04:36:23,759 --> 04:36:27,360
and they created a quote unquote country of Liberia with

4833
04:36:27,479 --> 04:36:30,599
a government of Liberia, you know, and they created a

4834
04:36:30,639 --> 04:36:34,799
sort of national quote unquote police force that went out

4835
04:36:34,840 --> 04:36:38,840
and found which tribal authorities and chiefs could be co opted,

4836
04:36:38,880 --> 04:36:42,200
getting rid of the ones that couldn't, and then reinforcing

4837
04:36:42,200 --> 04:36:44,840
the co opted ones authority with the national you know,

4838
04:36:44,880 --> 04:36:48,400
security forces. But it was it was always just very

4839
04:36:48,520 --> 04:36:51,520
very very inorganic, you know, it never had any purchase

4840
04:36:51,639 --> 04:36:54,279
like on the ground. In most of the country. It

4841
04:36:54,319 --> 04:36:57,240
was something that they existed on paper to a large degree.

4842
04:36:57,279 --> 04:37:00,599
And you saw in the twentieth century that you know,

4843
04:37:00,680 --> 04:37:04,000
with the slightest push, a place like that comes apart.

4844
04:37:06,479 --> 04:37:12,959
Speaker 1: All right. First one, revolution the action is conducted initially

4845
04:37:13,000 --> 04:37:17,240
at any rate, by uncoordinated popular masses, and it aims

4846
04:37:17,240 --> 04:37:20,759
at changing the social and political structures, as well as

4847
04:37:20,799 --> 04:37:24,759
the personalities and the leadership. The term revolution has gained

4848
04:37:24,759 --> 04:37:28,200
a certain popularity and many coups are graced with it

4849
04:37:28,639 --> 04:37:31,840
because of the implication that it was the people rather

4850
04:37:31,880 --> 04:37:35,040
than a few plotters who did the whole thing. Thus,

4851
04:37:35,080 --> 04:37:41,000
the obscure aims abd Abd al Karim Kassim had in

4852
04:37:41,080 --> 04:37:44,200
mind when he overthrew the Iraqi regime of King Faisal

4853
04:37:44,520 --> 04:37:49,439
the Second and Prime Minister nourri said are locally known

4854
04:37:49,520 --> 04:37:56,479
as the Sacred Principles of the July fourteenth Revolution. Next

4855
04:37:56,479 --> 04:38:00,520
one is civil war. Civil war is outright warfare between

4856
04:38:00,560 --> 04:38:05,279
elements of the armed forces and or the population at large.

4857
04:38:05,400 --> 04:38:08,919
The term is perpetually unfashionable. Whenever there is a civil war,

4858
04:38:09,319 --> 04:38:13,680
all sides typically deny its existence, variously passing it off

4859
04:38:13,720 --> 04:38:16,959
as an international war, such as the war between the

4860
04:38:17,000 --> 04:38:21,799
states of the Confederacy, or more often as a foreign aggression.

4861
04:38:22,200 --> 04:38:25,000
Though in Franco's Spain, the civil war of nineteen thirty

4862
04:38:25,000 --> 04:38:29,040
six to nineteen thirty nine was always la Cruzada the

4863
04:38:29,119 --> 04:38:40,959
Crusade siamiento. This is an essentially Spanish and South American

4864
04:38:41,040 --> 04:38:44,520
version of the military coup de'ta, but many recent African

4865
04:38:44,560 --> 04:38:48,919
coups have also taken this particular form. In its original

4866
04:38:48,959 --> 04:38:52,720
nineteenth century Spanish version, it was a highly ritualized process.

4867
04:38:53,319 --> 04:38:57,200
First came the trabajos, literally the works, in which the

4868
04:38:57,279 --> 04:39:00,720
opinions of army officers were sounded. The next step was

4869
04:39:00,759 --> 04:39:05,720
the compromisos, in which commitments were made and rewards promised.

4870
04:39:06,119 --> 04:39:08,919
Then came the call for action, and finally the appeal

4871
04:39:08,959 --> 04:39:12,479
to the troops to follow their officers in rebellion against

4872
04:39:12,560 --> 04:39:19,200
the government. The pronunciamanto was often a liberal rather than

4873
04:39:19,200 --> 04:39:23,279
a reactionary phenomenon, and the theoretical purpose of the takeover

4874
04:39:23,479 --> 04:39:29,919
was to ascertain the national will. A typical liberal concept. Later,

4875
04:39:29,959 --> 04:39:33,360
as the army became increasingly right wing while Spanish governments

4876
04:39:33,400 --> 04:39:37,479
became less so, the theory shifted from the neoliberal national

4877
04:39:37,520 --> 04:39:42,279
will to the neo conservative real will theory. The latter

4878
04:39:42,400 --> 04:39:47,080
postulates that the prospulates the existence of a national essence,

4879
04:39:47,200 --> 04:39:52,279
a sort of permanent spiritual structure which the wishes of

4880
04:39:52,360 --> 04:39:56,680
the majority may not always express. The army was entrusted

4881
04:39:56,720 --> 04:40:00,439
with the interpretation and preservation of this essential s Spain,

4882
04:40:01,080 --> 04:40:03,799
and the obligation to protect it against the government and,

4883
04:40:04,159 --> 04:40:11,959
if need be, against the people. Siamiento was organized and

4884
04:40:12,040 --> 04:40:15,200
led by a particular army leader, but it was carried

4885
04:40:15,240 --> 04:40:17,959
out in the name of the entire officer corps. Unlike

4886
04:40:18,000 --> 04:40:21,119
the pusch, which is carried out by a faction within

4887
04:40:21,200 --> 04:40:24,520
the army, or the coup, which can also be executed

4888
04:40:24,520 --> 04:40:29,680
by civilians using some army units, the pronounciamiento leads to

4889
04:40:29,759 --> 04:40:33,560
a takeover by the army as a whole. Many African

4890
04:40:33,639 --> 04:40:36,599
takeovers in which the army had participated as a whole

4891
04:40:36,680 --> 04:40:42,560
were therefore very similar to the classic pronouncmento what do you?

4892
04:40:43,319 --> 04:40:48,240
How do you? This was written before before Chile nineteen

4893
04:40:48,319 --> 04:40:51,919
seventy three would how would that be How would that

4894
04:40:51,959 --> 04:40:52,840
even fit into that?

4895
04:40:53,840 --> 04:40:55,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it would fit into what he's saying,

4896
04:40:56,240 --> 04:40:59,319
you know, in the sense of representing at least the

4897
04:40:59,360 --> 04:41:00,959
majority of the armed forces.

4898
04:41:02,080 --> 04:41:02,240
Speaker 1: You know.

4899
04:41:02,240 --> 04:41:08,319
Speaker 2: It's Another interesting example is like when CECI in Egypt

4900
04:41:08,360 --> 04:41:12,840
throughout the Muslim Brotherhood, and you know, you saw in

4901
04:41:12,880 --> 04:41:14,919
that situation. I mean, in a way you could say

4902
04:41:14,959 --> 04:41:17,840
that wasn't it wasn't quite a coup in the sense

4903
04:41:17,880 --> 04:41:22,720
that what was really happening was the real power in

4904
04:41:22,799 --> 04:41:27,040
the in the country was revealing itself. You know that

4905
04:41:27,040 --> 04:41:29,959
the that the deep state there was always in charge

4906
04:41:30,400 --> 04:41:33,080
election or no election, and it was it was making

4907
04:41:33,119 --> 04:41:36,200
that clear. But still like that's how it played out.

4908
04:41:36,959 --> 04:41:41,119
But when that happened, you know, sure Mubarak was in

4909
04:41:41,200 --> 04:41:43,279
jail and everything, but if you looked at it, I mean,

4910
04:41:44,680 --> 04:41:46,560
every time CEC was on stage, like he was on

4911
04:41:46,639 --> 04:41:50,200
camera somewhere, it's just nothing but four stars flanking him

4912
04:41:50,200 --> 04:41:52,720
on either side. And if you look at something like

4913
04:41:52,799 --> 04:41:57,319
the twenty was it fifteen or sixteen attempt against ern

4914
04:41:58,240 --> 04:42:01,840
and I remember when they first went on the people

4915
04:42:01,840 --> 04:42:04,959
who were pushing the putch or coup, whatever you want

4916
04:42:04,959 --> 04:42:06,119
to call I guess this would be a putch in

4917
04:42:06,200 --> 04:42:09,360
Lutwalk's terms. And I remember watching it and seeing like

4918
04:42:09,599 --> 04:42:12,439
I think there was like a two star on stage talking,

4919
04:42:12,880 --> 04:42:15,200
but then there was like a couple of colonels and

4920
04:42:15,240 --> 04:42:17,680
then there was like a captain on stage. I'm like,

4921
04:42:18,080 --> 04:42:21,080
if you got a captain on stage for your coup,

4922
04:42:21,279 --> 04:42:23,639
like it's over. This is not gonna work. There's just

4923
04:42:23,680 --> 04:42:27,400
no he should be like getting coffee for somebody, for

4924
04:42:27,479 --> 04:42:29,200
all the four stars that are or else. This is

4925
04:42:29,279 --> 04:42:31,200
not gonna work. And sure enough it didn't work.

4926
04:42:33,080 --> 04:42:36,159
Speaker 1: All right, Let's move on to the puch. Essentially a

4927
04:42:36,200 --> 04:42:41,680
wartime or immediately postwar phenomenon, a pusch is attempted by

4928
04:42:41,840 --> 04:42:45,479
a formal body within the armed forces under its appointment,

4929
04:42:46,279 --> 04:42:51,240
under its appointed leadership. Excuse me. The corny Love putsch

4930
04:42:51,400 --> 04:42:54,400
is a clear example. Lavera Korni Love, a general in

4931
04:42:54,520 --> 04:42:57,639
charge of an army group in northern Russia, attempted to

4932
04:42:57,680 --> 04:43:02,279
seize the then Petrograd Petersburg in order to establish a

4933
04:43:02,279 --> 04:43:06,360
fighting regime that would prosecute the war. Had he succeeded,

4934
04:43:06,400 --> 04:43:10,040
the city would perhaps have borne his name instead of Lenin,

4935
04:43:10,279 --> 04:43:17,319
as it did until nineteen ninety one liberation. A state

4936
04:43:17,400 --> 04:43:20,240
may be said by supporters of the change to be

4937
04:43:20,360 --> 04:43:24,319
liberated when its government is overthrown by foreign military or

4938
04:43:24,360 --> 04:43:28,639
diplomatic intervention. A classic case of this was the installation

4939
04:43:28,759 --> 04:43:32,360
of the communist leadership in Romania in nineteen forty seven.

4940
04:43:33,040 --> 04:43:36,080
The USSR forced to then King Michael to accept a

4941
04:43:36,119 --> 04:43:41,000
new cabinet by threatening direct military force by the Soviet Army.

4942
04:43:42,119 --> 04:43:46,599
You ever read what Evela had to say about the

4943
04:43:46,639 --> 04:43:47,240
Iron Guard.

4944
04:43:48,959 --> 04:43:51,720
Speaker 2: No, I've read a lot of Evela, but I can't

4945
04:43:51,720 --> 04:43:52,759
remember anything about that.

4946
04:43:53,319 --> 04:43:55,319
Speaker 1: It's like a ten page article. And he said that

4947
04:43:55,759 --> 04:44:00,319
if anybody was going to defeat Bolshevism in your it

4948
04:44:00,360 --> 04:44:02,479
would have been it would have been the Romanian Iron Guard.

4949
04:44:02,520 --> 04:44:04,799
It would have been Clergiano and the Romanian Iron Guard,

4950
04:44:04,840 --> 04:44:12,360
he said, just because not only a nationalistic feeling, but

4951
04:44:12,360 --> 04:44:16,080
also the Orthodox, the Orthodox feeling, and then just a

4952
04:44:17,040 --> 04:44:22,759
they had recognized the influence of certain groups in Bolshevism

4953
04:44:23,000 --> 04:44:26,000
very early on, and we're and we're writing about it.

4954
04:44:26,479 --> 04:44:30,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe that's why, you know, the Legionnaires probably

4955
04:44:30,240 --> 04:44:33,840
got it worse than just about every other anti communist

4956
04:44:33,880 --> 04:44:36,599
group in Europe, you know, in Poteste prison, in some

4957
04:44:36,639 --> 04:44:38,000
of the other places.

4958
04:44:38,959 --> 04:44:41,720
Speaker 1: Man, all right, let me keep doing. I don't want

4959
04:44:41,759 --> 04:44:44,279
to talk about that. That makes it, that makes me ill,

4960
04:44:46,959 --> 04:44:51,000
war of national liberation, insurgency, et cetera. In this form

4961
04:44:51,040 --> 04:44:54,080
of internal conflict, the aim of the initiating party is

4962
04:44:54,080 --> 04:44:56,919
not to seize power within the state, but rather to

4963
04:44:56,959 --> 04:45:00,439
set up a rival state structure. This can be politically,

4964
04:45:00,639 --> 04:45:04,439
ethnically or religiously based, as with the Taliban, whose aim

4965
04:45:05,000 --> 04:45:09,759
is in Afghanistan wholly converted to their own Deobandi or

4966
04:45:09,840 --> 04:45:13,880
Wahabi Islam, which contrives to be both the official state

4967
04:45:13,919 --> 04:45:18,040
religion of Saudi Arabia and a rigorously fanatical ideology that

4968
04:45:18,119 --> 04:45:21,759
denies any legitimacy whatsoever. It's any other form of Islam,

4969
04:45:22,279 --> 04:45:28,720
let alone non Muslim faiths. As for secessionist insurgencies, they

4970
04:45:28,759 --> 04:45:34,000
are necessarily ethnically based, though ethnicity can be all in

4971
04:45:34,040 --> 04:45:38,200
the mind, as with the Eritreans and Ethiopians, as with

4972
04:45:38,279 --> 04:45:41,599
the Kurds of Iraq as well as Iran and Turkey,

4973
04:45:41,720 --> 04:45:45,080
the Somalis of Kenya and Ethiopia, the current people in

4974
04:45:45,119 --> 04:45:51,959
Burma and formerly the Nagas of India. All Right, the

4975
04:45:52,040 --> 04:46:02,159
definition of the coudetat drink real quick. A kudata involves

4976
04:46:02,200 --> 04:46:05,680
some elements of all these different methods by which power

4977
04:46:05,720 --> 04:46:08,639
can be seized, but unlike most of them, the coup

4978
04:46:08,720 --> 04:46:12,080
is not assisted by the intervention of the masses or

4979
04:46:12,119 --> 04:46:16,040
by any large scale form of combat by military forces.

4980
04:46:17,000 --> 04:46:20,080
The assistance of these forms of direct force would no

4981
04:46:20,159 --> 04:46:22,919
doubt make it easier to seize power, but it would

4982
04:46:22,919 --> 04:46:25,560
be unrealistic to think that they would be available to

4983
04:46:25,599 --> 04:46:29,200
the organizers of a coup. Because we will not be

4984
04:46:29,599 --> 04:46:34,040
in charge of the armed forces. We cannot hope to

4985
04:46:34,080 --> 04:46:37,639
start planning of a coup with sizable military units already

4986
04:46:37,720 --> 04:46:41,200
under our control, nor will the pre coup government usually

4987
04:46:41,240 --> 04:46:44,439
allow us to carry out the propaganda and organization necessary

4988
04:46:44,479 --> 04:46:48,200
to make effective use of the broad masses of the people.

4989
04:46:50,159 --> 04:46:53,200
A second distinguishing feature of a coup is that it

4990
04:46:53,240 --> 04:46:59,319
does not imply any particular political orientation. Revolutions are usually leftists,

4991
04:46:59,639 --> 04:47:03,680
while the which and the pronunciamiento are usually initiated by

4992
04:47:03,799 --> 04:47:08,240
right wing forces. A coup, however, is politically neutral, and

4993
04:47:08,279 --> 04:47:11,599
there is no presumption that any particular policies will be

4994
04:47:11,639 --> 04:47:14,959
followed after the seizure of power. It is true that

4995
04:47:15,000 --> 04:47:17,799
many coups have been of a decidedly right wing character,

4996
04:47:18,560 --> 04:47:23,959
but there is nothing inevitable about that. If a coup

4997
04:47:24,000 --> 04:47:26,880
does not make use of the masses or of warfare,

4998
04:47:27,159 --> 04:47:29,880
what instrument of power will enable it to seize control

4999
04:47:29,919 --> 04:47:33,040
of the state. The short answer is that power will

5000
04:47:33,080 --> 04:47:36,279
come from the state itself. The long answer makes up

5001
04:47:36,319 --> 04:47:39,479
the bulk of this book. The following is our formal

5002
04:47:39,799 --> 04:47:45,279
and functional definition of a coup. A coup consists of

5003
04:47:45,319 --> 04:47:48,520
the infiltration of a small but critical segment of the

5004
04:47:48,560 --> 04:47:52,240
state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government

5005
04:47:52,319 --> 04:47:59,040
from its control of the remainder. And there is footnotes

5006
04:47:59,080 --> 04:48:03,520
for chapter one, start chapter two and cefr we get.

5007
04:48:04,880 --> 04:48:04,919
Speaker 2: No.

5008
04:48:06,560 --> 04:48:08,279
Speaker 1: Whenever you need to break off, just let me know

5009
04:48:09,919 --> 04:48:16,479
Chapter two, when is a kudeta possible? Quoting the Bolsheviks

5010
04:48:16,520 --> 04:48:18,840
have no right to wait for the Congress of Soviets.

5011
04:48:18,919 --> 04:48:22,240
They must take power immediately victory is assured, and there

5012
04:48:22,319 --> 04:48:24,919
are nine chances out of ten that it will be bloodless.

5013
04:48:25,319 --> 04:48:29,119
To wait is a crime against the revolution. That's Vladimir

5014
04:48:29,240 --> 04:48:38,119
ilitch Ilyanov lenin October nineteen seventeen. The process of decolonization

5015
04:48:38,240 --> 04:48:40,439
that started soon after the end of the Second World

5016
04:48:40,520 --> 04:48:43,639
War first doubled and then more than triple the number

5017
04:48:43,680 --> 04:48:47,000
of independent states, so that the opportunities open to us

5018
04:48:47,000 --> 04:48:51,720
have expanded in a most gratifying manner. We have to recognize, however,

5019
04:48:52,000 --> 04:48:54,880
that not all states make good targets for our attentions.

5020
04:48:55,400 --> 04:48:57,520
There is nothing to prevent us from carrying out a

5021
04:48:57,639 --> 04:49:00,799
kup and say the United Kingdom, but we would probably

5022
04:49:00,840 --> 04:49:02,799
be unable to stay in power for more than a

5023
04:49:02,799 --> 04:49:06,159
short time. The public and the bureaucracy have a basic

5024
04:49:06,240 --> 04:49:09,040
understanding of the nature and legal basis of the government,

5025
04:49:09,279 --> 04:49:13,279
and they would react in order to restore a legitimate leadership.

5026
04:49:15,200 --> 04:49:18,959
This reaction renders any initial success of the coup meaningless,

5027
04:49:19,240 --> 04:49:21,720
and it would arise even though the pre coup government

5028
04:49:21,840 --> 04:49:25,599
may have been unpopular and the new faces may be attractive.

5029
04:49:26,560 --> 04:49:29,959
The reaction would arise from the fact that a significant

5030
04:49:29,959 --> 04:49:33,240
part of the population takes an active interest in political

5031
04:49:33,279 --> 04:49:37,560
life and regularly participates in it. This implies a recognition

5032
04:49:37,639 --> 04:49:40,799
that the power of the government derives from its legitimate origin,

5033
04:49:41,279 --> 04:49:43,959
and even those who have no reason to support the

5034
04:49:44,000 --> 04:49:47,680
old Guard have many good reasons to support the principle

5035
04:49:47,919 --> 04:49:52,159
of legitimacy. I guess that's really important when you have

5036
04:49:54,400 --> 04:49:58,040
so many people, a good percentage of your population who's

5037
04:49:58,159 --> 04:50:01,720
actually employed by the governm or living off of its teeth.

5038
04:50:03,799 --> 04:50:06,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. And I think you see exactly what

5039
04:50:06,159 --> 04:50:09,959
he's talking about in how the way a lot of

5040
04:50:10,080 --> 04:50:14,919
conservatives in the United States today, you know, they can

5041
04:50:14,959 --> 04:50:20,000
be blocked up for fifteen years for trespassing in the capital,

5042
04:50:20,159 --> 04:50:23,639
they can be spied on for their political activity, whatever,

5043
04:50:23,720 --> 04:50:26,720
all of these things, and they still will fall back

5044
04:50:26,799 --> 04:50:29,479
on a constitution, you know. And it's because they do.

5045
04:50:29,799 --> 04:50:33,400
And that's look, that's a that's a noble impulse, you know,

5046
04:50:33,439 --> 04:50:36,560
I mean, it's it's a sense that they have that

5047
04:50:37,360 --> 04:50:39,919
you know, we have this this bolwark that if we

5048
04:50:40,000 --> 04:50:42,840
give up and we give that up, then there's going

5049
04:50:42,919 --> 04:50:44,439
to be real chaos on the other side of it.

5050
04:50:44,479 --> 04:50:46,680
And so we have to suffer what we must in

5051
04:50:46,799 --> 04:50:50,319
order to sustain it. But but that's that you know,

5052
04:50:50,439 --> 04:50:53,599
principle of legitimacy that people hold on to long after

5053
04:50:54,240 --> 04:50:56,720
it really has any any reality to it.

5054
04:50:59,080 --> 04:51:01,880
Speaker 1: We are all familiar with the periodic surveys which show

5055
04:51:02,080 --> 04:51:05,360
that say twenty percent of the sample failed to correctly

5056
04:51:05,439 --> 04:51:07,919
name the prime minister. And we know that a large

5057
04:51:07,919 --> 04:51:12,720
part of the population has only the vagus contact with politics. Nevertheless,

5058
04:51:12,759 --> 04:51:15,759
in most developed countries, those who do take an active

5059
04:51:15,799 --> 04:51:19,799
interest in politics form in absolute terms a very large group.

5060
04:51:20,799 --> 04:51:25,400
Controversial policy decisions stimulate and bring to the surface this participation.

5061
04:51:26,080 --> 04:51:28,959
Pressure groups are formed, letters are sent to the press

5062
04:51:29,119 --> 04:51:33,080
and the politician, and the press and the politicians. Petitions

5063
04:51:33,080 --> 04:51:35,919
and demonstrations are organized, and this adds up to a

5064
04:51:35,959 --> 04:51:41,080
continuing dialogue between the rulers and the ruled. I automatically

5065
04:51:41,119 --> 04:51:44,759
think of Uncle ted over socialization when I read those

5066
04:51:44,799 --> 04:51:49,759
two paragraphs right there. This dialogue does not depend necessarily

5067
04:51:49,799 --> 04:51:53,680
on the existence of a formally democratic political system. Even

5068
04:51:53,799 --> 04:51:56,639
in one party states where power is in the hands

5069
04:51:56,840 --> 04:52:00,000
of a few self appointed leaders I muted, But nevertheless,

5070
04:52:00,159 --> 04:52:04,200
active dialogue can take place. The higher organizations of the

5071
04:52:04,200 --> 04:52:08,040
party can discuss party decisions, and in time of relative relaxation,

5072
04:52:08,799 --> 04:52:11,799
the discussions extend to the larger numbers in the lower

5073
04:52:11,799 --> 04:52:16,680
echelons and to publications reflecting different currents. Though only within

5074
04:52:16,720 --> 04:52:19,639
the wider framework of the accepted ideology and the broad

5075
04:52:19,720 --> 04:52:24,159
policy decisions of the leadership. The value of the dialogue

5076
04:52:24,279 --> 04:52:28,279
from that takes place in non democratic states. Let me

5077
04:52:28,319 --> 04:52:30,639
repeat that again. The value of the dialogue that takes

5078
04:52:30,639 --> 04:52:36,880
place in non democratic states varies greatly. In the former Yugoslavia,

5079
04:52:37,119 --> 04:52:41,040
for example, the Communist Party contrived. Okay, so I'm assuming

5080
04:52:41,119 --> 04:52:43,680
this is these are updates that he wrote in the

5081
04:52:44,119 --> 04:52:46,159
He wrote in the new edition. I think what is it?

5082
04:52:46,200 --> 04:52:47,520
The twenty sixteen edition?

5083
04:52:49,400 --> 04:52:51,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, twenty sixteen.

5084
04:52:51,880 --> 04:52:56,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the former Yugoslavia, for example, the

5085
04:52:56,159 --> 04:53:00,400
Communist Party contrived to remain in control for decades while

5086
04:53:00,520 --> 04:53:04,080
nevertheless functioning to an increasing extent as a semi open

5087
04:53:04,200 --> 04:53:08,319
form for increasingly free, increasingly wide ranging debates on major

5088
04:53:08,319 --> 04:53:13,360
political issues that press, though unable to assert truly independent opinions,

5089
04:53:13,599 --> 04:53:17,080
at least echoed those debates. In the process, while there

5090
04:53:17,119 --> 04:53:22,080
was still no democracy, the population evolved from subjection to participation,

5091
04:53:22,680 --> 04:53:26,439
learning to scrutinize and question orders instead of simply obeying them,

5092
04:53:26,840 --> 04:53:30,200
so that they were increasingly likely to resist a coup.

5093
04:53:32,520 --> 04:53:36,880
In the Arab world, by contrast, the nominal ruling parties

5094
04:53:38,119 --> 04:53:41,639
that function from the nineteen sixties, the Arab Socialist Union

5095
04:53:41,759 --> 04:53:44,759
of Egypt and the Bath Party of Syria and Iraq

5096
04:53:45,279 --> 04:53:48,560
very soon degenerated into mere rubber stamps for the ruling

5097
04:53:48,599 --> 04:53:56,000
dictators Damal Gamal abdel Nasser, Havez al Asad and Saddam Hussein.

5098
04:53:56,959 --> 04:54:01,360
As time went on, their pretended deference to parties councils dissolved,

5099
04:54:01,720 --> 04:54:05,799
but all along they made every significant decision by themselves,

5100
04:54:06,080 --> 04:54:09,520
while the parties could only cheer them on. When the

5101
04:54:09,599 --> 04:54:13,479
question came up of whether Egypt's ASU dominated National Assembly

5102
04:54:13,479 --> 04:54:17,080
would accept now sirs withdrawal of his resignation following the

5103
04:54:17,159 --> 04:54:20,240
June nineteen sixty seven debacle known as the Sixth Day War,

5104
04:54:20,759 --> 04:54:24,080
an observer pointed out that the Assembly will jolly do

5105
04:54:24,520 --> 04:54:27,720
what it is told. You want comment on that at all?

5106
04:54:29,279 --> 04:54:30,840
Speaker 2: I think it's safe to say that that was an

5107
04:54:30,880 --> 04:54:32,200
English observer.

5108
04:54:37,599 --> 04:54:41,080
Speaker 1: With the Yugoslav Communist Party, the ASU and the Rolling

5109
04:54:41,119 --> 04:54:43,680
Bath Party now but a memory. The very greatest of

5110
04:54:43,759 --> 04:54:47,560
questions across the entire horizon of global politics is, of course,

5111
04:54:48,119 --> 04:54:49,680
the future of the Jianguo.

5112
04:54:52,400 --> 04:54:54,759
Speaker 2: The Communist Party of China can help.

5113
04:54:54,720 --> 04:55:01,040
Speaker 1: The Communist Party of China until the twoth twelve appointment

5114
04:55:01,040 --> 04:55:04,560
of Jijing Peng as Party General Secretary, President of the

5115
04:55:04,599 --> 04:55:07,720
People's Republic, President of the People's Republic of China and

5116
04:55:07,759 --> 04:55:11,159
the chairman of the Central Military Commission, significantly the most

5117
04:55:11,159 --> 04:55:14,959
powerful of all three. The party's future seemed quite predictable.

5118
04:55:15,520 --> 04:55:18,360
It was becoming a holding company for all the public

5119
04:55:18,439 --> 04:55:21,639
wealth and much of the private wealth of China, whereby

5120
04:55:21,680 --> 04:55:25,159
officials continued to receive their modest salaries, they did not

5121
04:55:25,319 --> 04:55:30,000
exceed R and B eleven three hundred and eighty five

5122
04:55:30,119 --> 04:55:34,560
or basically eighteen hundred and fifty four dollars US dollars

5123
04:55:34,560 --> 04:55:39,360
per month in twenty fifteen, even in the very highest rank. Meanwhile,

5124
04:55:39,400 --> 04:55:42,840
the party officials collected large amounts of bribes, ensuring a

5125
04:55:42,880 --> 04:55:46,119
degree of affluence even at the village level, rising to

5126
04:55:46,240 --> 04:55:50,319
sometimes very great wealth at the top. As a faithful

5127
04:55:50,360 --> 04:55:53,720
fan of Beijing's top discos, I grew accustomed to seeing

5128
04:55:54,040 --> 04:55:56,680
the young sons of party officials driving up in their

5129
04:55:56,720 --> 04:56:01,200
Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Little aside by Ludwak.

5130
04:56:01,599 --> 04:56:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of those young sons of party officials

5131
04:56:04,000 --> 04:56:08,279
who were driving Ferraris and Lamborghinis are the people we

5132
04:56:08,360 --> 04:56:12,799
call political prisoners in China. Right now that g had

5133
04:56:12,840 --> 04:56:18,000
locked up for corruption. So you know that previous part

5134
04:56:18,040 --> 04:56:19,880
you read too, It's like, you know, it's an interesting

5135
04:56:19,919 --> 04:56:24,439
point because you know it kind of it speaks to

5136
04:56:24,479 --> 04:56:26,799
the fact, like we have this bias over here in

5137
04:56:26,880 --> 04:56:30,279
most of the West, I mean definitely in America that

5138
04:56:31,439 --> 04:56:35,400
representative government, you know, the people being gaining having representation

5139
04:56:36,880 --> 04:56:40,840
is synonymous with democracy. And I think that, you know,

5140
04:56:40,840 --> 04:56:43,279
if you really think about it for more than two seconds,

5141
04:56:43,439 --> 04:56:47,279
you know, we can see that there are functional democratic

5142
04:56:47,360 --> 04:56:50,360
systems like ours, like so many in Europe that don't

5143
04:56:50,360 --> 04:56:53,560
represent their people at all, that everybody's very unsatisfied with,

5144
04:56:53,680 --> 04:56:56,040
and that go their own way. But that even in

5145
04:56:56,159 --> 04:56:59,799
one party states or dictatorial states, that there are other

5146
04:57:00,000 --> 04:57:03,720
means of allowing people the dialogue with the government and

5147
04:57:03,759 --> 04:57:06,119
express their needs and their interests. There are other ways

5148
04:57:06,159 --> 04:57:09,000
to do it other than you know, mass democracy. And

5149
04:57:09,080 --> 04:57:11,959
I think you know, there have been plenty of examples

5150
04:57:12,119 --> 04:57:17,959
of governments throughout the twentieth century. Usually you know, they

5151
04:57:17,959 --> 04:57:21,400
didn't they didn't last too long, partly because we placed

5152
04:57:21,479 --> 04:57:23,720
him in the crosshairs for one reason or another. Who

5153
04:57:23,759 --> 04:57:27,479
managed to represent their people and involve them in the

5154
04:57:27,520 --> 04:57:31,040
participation of their own governments without having everybody go to

5155
04:57:31,080 --> 04:57:32,639
the polls every two or four years.

5156
04:57:34,759 --> 04:57:37,560
Speaker 1: All right, moving on, We're going to finish up this

5157
04:57:37,639 --> 04:57:42,279
section before he breaks off into before he breaks off

5158
04:57:42,680 --> 04:57:44,560
starts breaking off down like he did in the last

5159
04:57:44,599 --> 04:57:47,200
section where he's doing revolution and he was doing and

5160
04:57:47,319 --> 04:57:50,599
we'll just finish this and I'll let you go, right.

5161
04:57:51,400 --> 04:57:54,119
But the continued transformation of the Communist Party of China

5162
04:57:54,200 --> 04:57:57,959
into a mega corporation man by the ambitious duly rewarded

5163
04:57:58,319 --> 04:58:02,279
with increasingly overt payoffs was interrupted by the decision of

5164
04:58:02,360 --> 04:58:05,479
Jijingping's high party colleagues to elevate him to a seat

5165
04:58:05,479 --> 04:58:09,799
of unprecedented power. They did so, most likely because they

5166
04:58:09,840 --> 04:58:13,360
feared that the party's further degeneration into an open, corrupt

5167
04:58:13,520 --> 04:58:17,319
enterprise would lead to an outright collapse. The problem with

5168
04:58:17,439 --> 04:58:21,599
bribes is that their distribution is very uneven, generating corrosive

5169
04:58:21,639 --> 04:58:28,799
resentments and embarrassing leaks. As a result, Jijingping is left

5170
04:58:27,880 --> 04:58:31,880
with the pretty problem of finding a substitute for both

5171
04:58:32,040 --> 04:58:36,119
a putrefying ideology and the lost and sensive of corruption,

5172
04:58:36,400 --> 04:58:40,319
with only Han nationalism ready at hand. Still, for the

5173
04:58:40,360 --> 04:58:45,560
time being, the Communist Party persists, as does subjection rather

5174
04:58:45,680 --> 04:58:46,599
than citizenship.

5175
04:58:48,880 --> 04:58:51,840
Speaker 2: I think that's pretty insightful. I think.

5176
04:58:53,400 --> 04:58:56,000
Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty clear description of what's happening

5177
04:58:56,080 --> 04:59:02,360
right yeah. The running dialogue between rulers and the rule

5178
04:59:02,479 --> 04:59:05,479
that precludes any coup can only exist if there is

5179
04:59:05,720 --> 04:59:09,759
large enough section of society that is sufficiently literate, well fed,

5180
04:59:09,880 --> 04:59:13,880
and secure enough to talk back. Even then, certain conditions

5181
04:59:13,880 --> 04:59:17,200
can lead to the deterioration of the relationship, and this

5182
04:59:17,240 --> 04:59:21,279
sometimes generates sufficient apathy or outright distrust of the regime

5183
04:59:21,599 --> 04:59:25,479
to make a coup possible. The events of nineteen fifty

5184
04:59:25,520 --> 04:59:28,000
eight in France were marked by a formal adherence to

5185
04:59:28,159 --> 04:59:33,200
the then constitutional rules, but were nevertheless analogous to a coup.

5186
04:59:34,919 --> 04:59:39,200
Twenty years of warfare, which had included the ignanimous defeat

5187
04:59:39,360 --> 04:59:43,360
of nineteen forty, the German occupation, the installation of the

5188
04:59:43,400 --> 04:59:48,159
authoritarian Vishi regime, and from nineteen forty six, long and

5189
04:59:48,240 --> 04:59:52,319
losing continual wars in Indo, China and Algeria, had thoroughly

5190
04:59:52,439 --> 04:59:57,680
undermined the country's democratic consensus. The continual changes of government

5191
04:59:57,720 --> 05:00:00,799
had dissipated the interest and respect of most, and left

5192
05:00:00,799 --> 05:00:05,159
the bureaucracy leaderless. Because the complex business of the ministries

5193
05:00:05,439 --> 05:00:07,880
could not be mastered by ministers who were only in

5194
05:00:07,959 --> 05:00:12,000
power for months or weeks. The French army was left

5195
05:00:12,040 --> 05:00:14,720
to fight the bitter Algerian War with little guidance from

5196
05:00:14,840 --> 05:00:19,200
Paris authorities, because more often than not, the ministries were

5197
05:00:19,240 --> 05:00:22,159
too busy fighting for their survival in the Assembly to

5198
05:00:22,240 --> 05:00:26,880
worry about the other, bloodier war. The cost of the

5199
05:00:26,919 --> 05:00:30,279
Algerian War, in both money and lives antagonized a general

5200
05:00:30,319 --> 05:00:32,959
public from both the army and the government, and many

5201
05:00:33,040 --> 05:00:35,319
of the French felt a growing fear and distrust of

5202
05:00:35,319 --> 05:00:40,720
the army's leadership, whose national sentiments and martial ideology seemed

5203
05:00:40,759 --> 05:00:43,680
alien to many of them and against the spirit of

5204
05:00:43,680 --> 05:00:49,159
the times. While the structures of political life under the

5205
05:00:49,200 --> 05:00:52,840
Fourth Republic were falling apart, Charles de gaul the grand

5206
05:00:52,880 --> 05:00:57,919
heroic figure long and simulated retirement, gradually emerged as the

5207
05:00:57,959 --> 05:01:01,680
only alternative to the chaos that threat. When the army

5208
05:01:01,680 --> 05:01:03,959
in Algeria appeared to be on the verge of truly

5209
05:01:04,080 --> 05:01:06,919
drastic action and yet another government was on the verge

5210
05:01:06,959 --> 05:01:11,080
of collapse, de Gaull was recalled. He was able to

5211
05:01:11,119 --> 05:01:15,119
impose his own terms on May twenty ninth, nineteen fifty eight,

5212
05:01:15,439 --> 05:01:18,599
when Rene Coti, the last President of the Fourth Republic,

5213
05:01:18,680 --> 05:01:22,360
called on him to form a government which was invested

5214
05:01:22,439 --> 05:01:26,319
on June first, to Gaul was given extraordinary powers to

5215
05:01:26,439 --> 05:01:28,560
role by decree for six months and to write a

5216
05:01:28,599 --> 05:01:33,200
new constitution. Under the terms of this constitution, presented for

5217
05:01:33,279 --> 05:01:37,360
consultation in mid August and approved by referendum in September,

5218
05:01:37,799 --> 05:01:41,000
elections were held in which de Gaul's newly formed Union

5219
05:01:41,080 --> 05:01:46,680
for the New Republic UNR party won a majority. On

5220
05:01:46,720 --> 05:01:49,639
December twenty first, De Gaull became the first president of

5221
05:01:49,680 --> 05:01:53,360
the Fifth Republic. He was an American style president with

5222
05:01:53,439 --> 05:01:57,599
wide executive powers, but without an American style congress to

5223
05:01:57,680 --> 05:02:02,599
restrain them. Nineteen fifty eight, France had become politically inert

5224
05:02:02,680 --> 05:02:06,400
and therefore ripe for a coup. The circumstances were unique,

5225
05:02:06,439 --> 05:02:09,439
of course, But while the political structures of all highly

5226
05:02:09,439 --> 05:02:13,240
developed countries may seem too resilient to make them suitable targets,

5227
05:02:13,560 --> 05:02:16,720
if acute enough, even temporary factors can weaken them fatally.

5228
05:02:17,840 --> 05:02:22,880
Of those temporary factors, the most common r A severe

5229
05:02:22,919 --> 05:02:27,400
and prolonged economic crisis with large scale unemployment and runaway inflation.

5230
05:02:29,119 --> 05:02:32,680
B A long and unsuccessful war, or a major defeat,

5231
05:02:32,720 --> 05:02:38,319
whether a military or diplomatic c Chronic instability under a

5232
05:02:38,400 --> 05:02:43,639
multi party system. Italy is an interesting example of an

5233
05:02:43,680 --> 05:02:49,880
economically developed, socially dynamic, but politically fragile country. Between nineteen

5234
05:02:49,959 --> 05:02:53,119
forty eight and circa nineteen ninety end of the Cold War,

5235
05:02:53,240 --> 05:02:56,560
the persistence of a large communist party that opposed Italy's

5236
05:02:56,599 --> 05:03:00,720
alignment with the West, if less vehemently after this Soviet

5237
05:03:00,720 --> 05:03:04,479
invasion of Czechoslovakia in nineteen sixty eight, forced the moderate

5238
05:03:04,560 --> 05:03:09,919
majority to keep voting for the increasingly corrupt Democrazia Christiana DC,

5239
05:03:10,759 --> 05:03:14,439
which itself ruled with the smaller but even more corrupt

5240
05:03:14,439 --> 05:03:18,720
Socialist Party. Its leader, Mattino Krazzi, would die a fugitive

5241
05:03:18,799 --> 05:03:23,639
outlaw in Tunisia. Because even the two parties did not

5242
05:03:23,680 --> 05:03:27,880
attain a parliamentary majority, every government required a broader coalition,

5243
05:03:27,959 --> 05:03:32,240
whose formation amounted to an intricate puzzle. The DC was

5244
05:03:32,279 --> 05:03:34,840
the largest party, but with only thirty percent of the votes,

5245
05:03:34,959 --> 05:03:38,639
it could not rule alone. Even with the Socialists, it

5246
05:03:38,680 --> 05:03:42,119
only reached a forty percent mark if it brought in

5247
05:03:42,200 --> 05:03:45,319
the two small left of center parties, the social Democrats

5248
05:03:45,319 --> 05:03:48,439
and the Republicans. The right of center parties, including the

5249
05:03:48,560 --> 05:03:52,759
MSI neo fascists, would not join in, but if the

5250
05:03:52,840 --> 05:03:55,279
latter were invited to join the coalition, the left would

5251
05:03:55,279 --> 05:03:58,799
break away and no government could be formed. In the end,

5252
05:03:58,880 --> 05:04:02,319
of course, were procured one way or another, mostly by

5253
05:04:02,360 --> 05:04:04,599
handing over control of parts of the vast array of

5254
05:04:04,799 --> 05:04:08,840
state owned businesses, everything from oil and gas to ice cream,

5255
05:04:09,159 --> 05:04:13,279
in exchange for parliamentary support. The votes, however, did not

5256
05:04:13,439 --> 05:04:17,319
stay bought for long and coalitions had short lives. Between

5257
05:04:17,360 --> 05:04:20,040
nineteen forty five and nineteen ninety four, there were thirty

5258
05:04:20,159 --> 05:04:23,959
three governments until the nineteen ninety four election victory of

5259
05:04:24,000 --> 05:04:29,680
the television and advertising tycoon Silvio Burlasconi, whose brand new

5260
05:04:29,720 --> 05:04:35,439
party Forts Italia was originally formed by its own employees

5261
05:04:35,479 --> 05:04:39,119
and the Milans football team fan club. Do you remember that?

5262
05:04:40,680 --> 05:04:45,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember, yeah, Italian politics. You know, my

5263
05:04:45,919 --> 05:04:50,799
buddy Danielle Blilli, he doesn't fall I mean, he's been

5264
05:04:50,840 --> 05:04:53,000
in America for a long time, but he still can

5265
05:04:53,080 --> 05:04:56,599
talk about it, and he knows the twentieth century pretty well.

5266
05:04:56,799 --> 05:04:59,799
And he starts describing telling me stories just you know,

5267
05:05:00,080 --> 05:05:02,240
different eras in the twentieth century, and I just get

5268
05:05:02,279 --> 05:05:04,919
lost immediately because it's just like you said, it's like

5269
05:05:04,959 --> 05:05:08,560
a new government every two years, different players, it's very

5270
05:05:08,599 --> 05:05:09,319
hard to follow.

5271
05:05:11,040 --> 05:05:14,159
Speaker 1: And I did two hours on the years of lead

5272
05:05:14,919 --> 05:05:18,159
and it was I mean, you're you're jumping from governments

5273
05:05:18,159 --> 05:05:21,520
to government while you're while you're explaining exactly what they

5274
05:05:21,520 --> 05:05:22,200
were doing.

5275
05:05:22,279 --> 05:05:24,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And all of these countries in Italy is

5276
05:05:24,479 --> 05:05:28,360
obviously such a perfect example of this. You know, they're

5277
05:05:28,479 --> 05:05:31,599
they're countries that are are battlegrounds in the Cold War,

5278
05:05:31,759 --> 05:05:35,040
and so they're facing like forces of destabilization from the

5279
05:05:35,080 --> 05:05:38,200
outside that are kind of amorphous and hard to identify,

5280
05:05:38,279 --> 05:05:40,520
but often you know, very very powerful with you want

5281
05:05:40,520 --> 05:05:43,040
to talk about you know, Gladio and the and the

5282
05:05:43,240 --> 05:05:48,000
and the Soviet control of the Communist Party there. You know,

5283
05:05:48,040 --> 05:05:49,639
that's what you've seen in a lot of these countries

5284
05:05:49,720 --> 05:05:51,919
is that a lot of the chaos and instability is

5285
05:05:52,000 --> 05:05:54,240
caused because because they're being vibe.

5286
05:05:54,000 --> 05:05:59,520
Speaker 1: For while the DC was unable to modernize Italy's increasingly

5287
05:05:59,560 --> 05:06:04,560
outdated state institutions, it nevertheless presided over decades of economic growth.

5288
05:06:05,560 --> 05:06:08,919
The combination of communists and Catholic anti capitalism made it

5289
05:06:08,959 --> 05:06:13,680
impossible to introduce either American style higher and fire labor

5290
05:06:13,720 --> 05:06:20,159
flexibility or German style economic discipline enforced by sophisticated trade unionists,

5291
05:06:20,279 --> 05:06:23,599
but the DC had its own remedy. Every time wage

5292
05:06:23,680 --> 05:06:26,560
rates were pushed too high, it devalued the Lira to

5293
05:06:26,639 --> 05:06:32,919
restore the competitiveness of Italian exports. Equally, the inability to

5294
05:06:32,959 --> 05:06:36,040
make the state efficient was offset by the lax enforcement

5295
05:06:36,080 --> 05:06:41,119
of tax collection. Thus Italian entrepreneurs, ill served by an

5296
05:06:41,159 --> 05:06:44,159
inefficient state, only had to pretend that they were paying

5297
05:06:44,240 --> 05:06:48,080
tax paying their saxes first one and then the other.

5298
05:06:48,159 --> 05:06:51,200
Of these practices came to an end once Italy adopted

5299
05:06:51,200 --> 05:06:55,080
the common European currency, the Euro, in nineteen ninety nine,

5300
05:06:55,080 --> 05:06:59,880
prohibiting competitive devaluations, and since then its economy has stagnated,

5301
05:07:00,119 --> 05:07:05,919
with little or no growth and chronically high unemployment. Politically,

5302
05:07:05,919 --> 05:07:10,319
on the other hand, Berlusconi's combination of a economic power

5303
05:07:10,400 --> 05:07:15,200
his enterprises could offer very many jobs, consultancies and contracts,

5304
05:07:15,720 --> 05:07:19,400
b media influence through the control of publishing houses, newspapers,

5305
05:07:19,439 --> 05:07:23,959
magazines and three television channels, and c of course, electoral

5306
05:07:24,000 --> 05:07:26,159
power through the votes he won by vigorous and well

5307
05:07:26,279 --> 05:07:31,479
organized campaigning ensured his political preponderance from nineteen ninety four

5308
05:07:31,680 --> 05:07:36,279
until twenty eleven, even went out of office as of

5309
05:07:36,360 --> 05:07:40,560
twenty fifteen, the government of Matteo Renzi is sustained by

5310
05:07:40,599 --> 05:07:44,439
a parliamentary majority that still requires Berlusconi's votes.

5311
05:07:45,200 --> 05:07:47,639
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting that it looks like you're about

5312
05:07:47,639 --> 05:07:48,479
to at the end of a section.

5313
05:07:48,520 --> 05:07:51,759
Speaker 1: I'll let you get there, yeah, yeah, and then we'll

5314
05:07:51,799 --> 05:07:56,560
be done. We'll you can close this out. Berlusconi's leading

5315
05:07:56,639 --> 05:07:59,560
role in Italy's public life over more than twenty years,

5316
05:07:59,639 --> 05:08:02,639
hiss co existed with the most blatant conflicts of interest.

5317
05:08:02,959 --> 05:08:06,240
He was operating state regulated businesses, a long series of

5318
05:08:06,319 --> 05:08:10,000
trials for tax evasion and vote buying, and numerous personal

5319
05:08:10,040 --> 05:08:12,840
scandals arising from his delight and cavorting with young and

5320
05:08:13,000 --> 05:08:17,479
very young or very young prostitutes. Hence, his prominence in

5321
05:08:17,520 --> 05:08:21,319
Italian politics is quite enough to describe the country's political

5322
05:08:21,479 --> 05:08:24,439
order as fragile. He could not have survived in a

5323
05:08:24,479 --> 05:08:28,000
fully functioning democracy that requires of its leader some semblance

5324
05:08:28,040 --> 05:08:32,040
of discretion in their personal conduct and the careful concealment

5325
05:08:32,319 --> 05:08:34,360
of significant conflicts of interest.

5326
05:08:35,479 --> 05:08:37,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, in the case of

5327
05:08:37,560 --> 05:08:42,040
de gaul and even Berlusconi, I think you can speak

5328
05:08:42,080 --> 05:08:44,680
of in the same way you have two You had

5329
05:08:44,680 --> 05:08:48,319
two countries where to go back to Max Weber's terms,

5330
05:08:48,360 --> 05:08:52,200
where that legal rational authority system is breaking down or

5331
05:08:52,240 --> 05:08:57,520
becoming decrepit and having to turn back to a charismatic

5332
05:08:57,639 --> 05:09:00,599
leader who can come in and actually be the organizing

5333
05:09:00,599 --> 05:09:04,119
principle for the state because you know, the machinery itself

5334
05:09:04,240 --> 05:09:06,720
is too gummed up. And I think both of those,

5335
05:09:06,759 --> 05:09:09,119
I mean, especially de gaul, you know, where they were

5336
05:09:09,200 --> 05:09:11,360
very aware of the fact that they were they were

5337
05:09:11,400 --> 05:09:15,279
reaching this this point of crisis in the in the government,

5338
05:09:15,400 --> 05:09:18,040
and they they turned to him almost in a you know,

5339
05:09:18,119 --> 05:09:21,080
periclean sort of Cincinnatus type type of way, to be

5340
05:09:21,200 --> 05:09:23,840
the guy who has the weight, who can come in

5341
05:09:23,959 --> 05:09:27,639
and and be that guy. And Berlisconi wasn't quite that direct,

5342
05:09:27,720 --> 05:09:30,040
but you know, just the fact that he stayed in

5343
05:09:30,119 --> 05:09:32,159
power as long as he did in a system that

5344
05:09:32,200 --> 05:09:36,159
had previously been so unstable and just changing out all

5345
05:09:36,200 --> 05:09:37,959
the time, it kind of shows you that he played

5346
05:09:37,959 --> 05:09:42,200
that role as well. You know, you see that very

5347
05:09:42,200 --> 05:09:43,840
often where I mean you see that in a person

5348
05:09:43,919 --> 05:09:47,439
like Putin right for example. You know, people in the

5349
05:09:47,560 --> 05:09:50,639
United States who watch regime media, you know, often have

5350
05:09:50,799 --> 05:09:54,159
this idea of Putin and all dictators really and even

5351
05:09:54,240 --> 05:09:56,840
like historical monarchs or whatever. But they have this idea

5352
05:09:56,880 --> 05:09:59,880
that you know, these are like god emperors who can

5353
05:10:00,279 --> 05:10:04,119
just you know, order the general top generals of the

5354
05:10:04,240 --> 05:10:06,720
army to be tortured and executed with their families and

5355
05:10:06,759 --> 05:10:09,720
nothing will happen because they're in charge. And obviously that's

5356
05:10:09,919 --> 05:10:12,720
that's never been reality. It's not reality. You look at

5357
05:10:12,720 --> 05:10:15,599
somebody like Putin. Why is Putin there? Putin is there

5358
05:10:15,720 --> 05:10:20,799
because he's the only person in Russia who all the

5359
05:10:20,880 --> 05:10:25,599
different power centers, all the different interest groups that have

5360
05:10:25,680 --> 05:10:30,279
and can wield organize power. He's the only person that

5361
05:10:30,319 --> 05:10:34,279
they actually trust to mediate and arbitrate their you know,

5362
05:10:34,400 --> 05:10:37,560
their conflicts of interests and their disputes, and they know

5363
05:10:37,639 --> 05:10:39,959
that if they get rid of that guy, you know,

5364
05:10:40,040 --> 05:10:42,040
maybe I want to take his place. You know, I'm

5365
05:10:42,040 --> 05:10:44,159
from this interest group or that power center, and I

5366
05:10:44,159 --> 05:10:45,840
want to be Putin. I want to take his place.

5367
05:10:45,880 --> 05:10:48,639
But I know that if I get up there, I'm

5368
05:10:48,639 --> 05:10:50,319
not going to have the buy in of all of

5369
05:10:50,319 --> 05:10:52,439
these people, and my power is not going to last.

5370
05:10:52,479 --> 05:10:55,959
And so you know, that's that's the source of like

5371
05:10:56,119 --> 05:10:59,000
real sustainable power in a person like that, doesn't you know,

5372
05:10:59,040 --> 05:11:01,439
you can you can extra size, all the force you want,

5373
05:11:03,680 --> 05:11:07,599
but unless you're well, I wouldn't even say in less

5374
05:11:07,599 --> 05:11:09,279
because I was going to cite Stalin, but that's not

5375
05:11:09,360 --> 05:11:11,880
even really true, Like you can exercise all the force

5376
05:11:11,959 --> 05:11:14,759
you want if you're not if you're not able to

5377
05:11:14,880 --> 05:11:18,520
occupy that central position as the one that's recognized as

5378
05:11:18,520 --> 05:11:20,959
like if we get rid of that person, then we're

5379
05:11:21,000 --> 05:11:23,560
all going to fall into chaos. Then you're not going

5380
05:11:23,599 --> 05:11:24,639
to sustain your power.

5381
05:11:27,400 --> 05:11:31,319
Speaker 1: Well, let me conclude by asking you a question. So,

5382
05:11:32,240 --> 05:11:35,959
say there is this we're looking at an election this year,

5383
05:11:36,720 --> 05:11:44,479
and one side has this plan, let's call it Project

5384
05:11:44,479 --> 05:11:50,919
twenty twenty five, and anyone who someone may have looked

5385
05:11:50,959 --> 05:11:53,040
at it and been like, huh, this looks like it

5386
05:11:53,080 --> 05:11:59,040
wants to dismantle the administrative state with dismantling the administrative

5387
05:11:59,080 --> 05:12:02,680
state in the United States and giving power back to

5388
05:12:03,439 --> 05:12:08,319
the three branches of government and basically like return even

5389
05:12:08,360 --> 05:12:13,119
returning the power of the presidency to FDR levels. Would

5390
05:12:13,119 --> 05:12:14,159
that be considered a coup?

5391
05:12:15,400 --> 05:12:20,000
Speaker 2: I think Luke Walcke would say no, But the uh,

5392
05:12:21,599 --> 05:12:26,360
sort of the level of almost extraord the level of

5393
05:12:26,360 --> 05:12:30,599
extraordinary action that would really be necessary to carry that out,

5394
05:12:31,560 --> 05:12:35,200
would would meet the threshold, you know what I mean, Like,

5395
05:12:35,240 --> 05:12:37,840
it's something that would face so much resistance that you

5396
05:12:37,880 --> 05:12:42,200
would have to be willing to override you know, technical

5397
05:12:42,360 --> 05:12:45,560
rules in legal boundaries in order to carry it out.

5398
05:12:46,000 --> 05:12:48,680
And so in that sense, you know, I suppose you

5399
05:12:48,680 --> 05:12:50,720
could call it a coup. You know, it's an illegal

5400
05:12:50,759 --> 05:12:54,400
seizure of power, illegal exercise of power for the purpose

5401
05:12:54,439 --> 05:13:00,000
of transferring the center of gravity and the government from

5402
05:13:00,119 --> 05:13:01,959
from one place to another. So I guess you could

5403
05:13:02,000 --> 05:13:06,840
maybe say that cool, and by saying that, I'm totally

5404
05:13:06,880 --> 05:13:08,959
okay with it and they should do it, by the way.

5405
05:13:09,200 --> 05:13:13,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm one hundred percent. I mean, of course, you

5406
05:13:13,279 --> 05:13:15,119
can be so black pilled to the point where it's

5407
05:13:15,119 --> 05:13:17,919
just like, just get some of it done, please. I mean,

5408
05:13:17,959 --> 05:13:20,599
I'll be happy with some of it. But you know, really,

5409
05:13:21,840 --> 05:13:24,000
I think, as Jarvin has said over and over again,

5410
05:13:25,799 --> 05:13:27,840
if you're going to cross the rubicon, you can't wait

5411
05:13:27,919 --> 05:13:31,240
on the other side, and you can't you can't you

5412
05:13:31,279 --> 05:13:33,400
can't wait in the water on the other side. And

5413
05:13:33,439 --> 05:13:36,240
if you do climb on to the shore, you can't

5414
05:13:36,400 --> 05:13:39,720
set up camp there. You have to keep going. And

5415
05:13:39,959 --> 05:13:42,319
the only way you're going to dismantle. The administrative statu

5416
05:13:42,360 --> 05:13:43,720
is to keep going, so.

5417
05:13:44,439 --> 05:13:46,479
Speaker 2: Never take the black pill. Despair is a sin.

5418
05:13:47,319 --> 05:13:49,959
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, So everybody where they can find your work.

5419
05:13:51,319 --> 05:13:54,360
Speaker 2: I have a podcast, the Martin Made Podcast if you

5420
05:13:55,000 --> 05:13:59,119
if you like really long form, deep dive historical podcast,

5421
05:13:59,200 --> 05:14:01,599
then that's the one for you. I do another one

5422
05:14:01,639 --> 05:14:04,919
with my friend Jocko Willink called The Unraveling where we

5423
05:14:05,000 --> 05:14:08,639
talk more about contemporary and it's sort of more recent

5424
05:14:08,720 --> 05:14:11,639
historical stuff, twentieth century things and stuff like that. And

5425
05:14:12,119 --> 05:14:14,439
I've got a substack. If you really really like those things,

5426
05:14:14,479 --> 05:14:18,959
you can come support me at Martyrmade at substack dot com.

5427
05:14:19,319 --> 05:14:20,200
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

5428
05:14:20,799 --> 05:14:21,840
Speaker 2: Always good Pete.

5429
05:14:22,479 --> 05:14:23,520
Speaker 1: Keep pushing boundaries.

5430
05:14:24,240 --> 05:14:24,759
Speaker 2: Later, brother,