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Speaker 1: These two episodes combined into one is the full unedited

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hour long interview with James R. Hansen on his biography

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called A Difficult par Robert Trent Jones, Senior and the

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Making of Modern Golf. It was originally published as Golf

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Smarter episode's number four hundred thirty six and four hundred

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thirty seven from May thirteenth and twentieth, twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain

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insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the

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Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets Old. Our

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interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations

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like this that are no longer available in any podcast app.

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Speaker 3: Maybe the most interesting crediting issue that comes up relates

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to Augusta National. In the late forties, Bobby Jones brought

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Trend in to do some significant.

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Speaker 4: Remodeling of some of the holes at Augusta Number sixteen.

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Speaker 3: As we know it, one of the great par threes

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in the world, was a very different hole before Trent

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Jones came in and redid it. The tea was right

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behind the fifteenth green. It was a little creek. It

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wasn't a lake, and the green was on the left

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of where it is now over that creek.

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Speaker 4: It was a bad hole.

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Speaker 3: Trent and the membership and the people who had been

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playing the Masters thought that sixteen was a week sister.

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And Jones comes in in redesigns that hole completely. I

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mean it's his hole. He redesigns the eighteenth green and

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the mounding around it. He redesigns the thirteenth green. He's

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the one that creates the tea on eleven from a

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dog lake right three hundred and fifty yard hole with

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a green where that lake isn't there, turns it into

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a longer four hundred Part four. It really kind of

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turns to the left and the green gets extended around

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this lake. And what's interesting about this is Augusta National

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never has credited Trent Jones for the work because they

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don't want to take any attention away from McKenzie or

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Bobby Jones.

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Speaker 5: A difficult part our biography of Robert Trent Jones, Senior

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and the making of modern golf.

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Speaker 4: This is Golf Smarter.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast.

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Speaker 4: Jim, Thank you very much. Fredd. It's a pleasure to

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be with you on this podcast.

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Speaker 5: Thank you. I got a book in the mail from

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your publisher with your name on it, and I love

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the title of it, especially when I was reading what

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it meant. So why don't we just start with that.

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The book is called A Difficult par Where did that

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come from?

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Speaker 4: Well, literally, it comes from the basic principle that Robert.

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Speaker 3: Trent Jones Senior followed in the design of his golf

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courses really from the very start of his career to

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the end.

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Speaker 4: And that was the idea that every good hole should

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be a.

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Speaker 3: Difficult par but an easy bogey. So that was kind

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of the ruling architectural principle for him, and I thought

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not only not only was it a mainstay of his

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architectural strategy, but I thought the title also, in a

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more metaphorical way, conveyed some other aspects of his career,

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because he had lots of ups and downs, and it

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was an immigrant boy, you know, that had big ambitions,

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and so it's really a uniquely American dream kind of story.

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And so the difficult part conveys, I hope, more than

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just the architectural principle.

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Speaker 5: And why did you pick? I mean, I looked at

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the other titles that you've written, and I was kind

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of baffled. Tell us about the other books that you've done.

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Let you do the talking on that one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, my career. You know, I'm an academic historian.

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Speaker 3: I think history at Auburn University here in Alabama, and

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I specialize really in the history of science and technology,

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and I've written most of my books on the history

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of aeronautics or the history of the space program. My

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one previous biography was Biography of Neil Armstrong, which I

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guess is book I'm best known for.

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Speaker 4: But I always wanted to do something.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do at least one book on golf

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because I grew up playing golf from the time I

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was nine or ten. I worked at a golf course

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from that same age. All the way through college, I

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played college golf. You know, I've always loved the game,

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and I wasn't good enough.

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Speaker 4: To you know, to really play in any kind.

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Speaker 3: Of significant way. But I wanted to do something, you know,

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for a sport that I loved so much. And I

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got this idea to do a Jones book, probably in

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part because I lived in Alabama and in the early

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nineteen nineties, the Robert Trent Jones Trail was being built

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all over the state, and that, I think kind of

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that converged with just my overall interest in the game

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of golf and my interest in doing a biography. And

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I actually contacted mister Jones when he was still living

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down in South Florida.

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Speaker 4: I wrote a letter to him, and I got a.

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Speaker 3: Letter back from his lawyer saying mister Jones wanted to

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do his own biography.

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Speaker 4: That never worked.

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Speaker 3: Out, and then he died in the year two thousand

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and By that point in time, I was on to

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the Neil Armstrong biography, But as soon as that was

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published in.

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Speaker 4: Two thousand and five, I got serious again.

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Speaker 3: And I had to overcome a number of challenges related

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to the records of mister Jones and to the two

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sons of mister Jones, both of whom are prominent golf

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course architects. But yeah, it's strange that I would go

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to this topic. But if you know my own biographical

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story and the loves of my life, which one of

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which is golf, you know it's something I've really wanted

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to do for a long time.

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Speaker 5: Are you going to do biographies on your wife and children.

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You can talk about doing stories on the love of

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your life to that.

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Speaker 3: And in fact, I hope no one ever does a

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biography of me, and not that they would, but you know,

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one of the amazing things about this particular biography is

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that I had access.

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Speaker 4: To, really carblanche, all of.

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Speaker 3: Jones's papers, personal and business, even his love letters to

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his wife to be that he wrote in the early

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nineteen thirties in the midst of the depression, when he

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was trying to get his career started and you know,

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wasn't getting jobs or wasn't getting paid for the jobs

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that he did do. And so I had amazing access

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to all of his records. And you know, you don't

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usually when you get into somebody's archives.

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Speaker 4: Usually you know they've pulled out a bunch of stuff

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that they don't want you to see.

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Speaker 3: In this case, there was the sons of mister Jones

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just let all that material go to Cornell University without

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any kind of without any you know, censorship or restrictions.

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And so when I got into that archive, which was

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by special permission of Rob Trin Jones Junior, initially, I

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mean it was really verb you know, sort of.

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Speaker 4: An impact file all.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the boxes were basically the filing cabinet drawords

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that had been mister Jones's records for seventy years.

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Speaker 5: Of all the characters that have come across and walked

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across a green, why Robert Trent Jones. Yeah, well, there's

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so many great characters, yea, And I mean I understand

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everything was uphill battle for him, including that love affair

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before he got married that was a strong uphill battle,

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and even becoming a golf course architect. From the way

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you describe it, everything was an uphill battle for him.

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But was he that compelling of a human being?

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Speaker 3: Well, it got easier for him because by the nineteen fifties,

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when he was becoming known as the Open Doctor.

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Speaker 6: For his renovation of championship courses, mostly from the US Opened,

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but then for some of the other majors known notably

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the PGA, it got easier for him, and he got

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so successful and so prolific that it became kind of

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challenge just to keep up with all of his projects,

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because he was really considered to be the world's foremost

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golf architect at that point.

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Speaker 4: My choice of Jones was really based.

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Speaker 3: On partly instinct and partly I was pretty sure I

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had the information about this correct. I just didn't think

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there was anybody in American golf, and that includes all

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the professionals.

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Speaker 4: I didn't think there was anyone where you could tell

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more about.

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Speaker 3: The history of the American golf course and about American

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golf generally. And I find a matter of worldwide golf

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than Jones, because you know, here's someone that worked that

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worked as an architect from nineteen thirty, from the Calvin

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Coolidge to two thousand, you know, to George Bush. So

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I mean, he had this very very long career and

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he designed golf courses in forty three different states of

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the United States and Puerto Rico on five different continents.

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He was certainly recognized. I mean, he really made golf

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architecture as a profession what it was, because I mean

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not that there weren't very talented maybe even you can

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certainly argue that there were even better architects and McKenzie

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or Donald Ross or someone, but they weren't really household names.

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The name of the architect was not really well we

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think of today. We always know we're playing a gross

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course or a Pete Die course or whatever. But golfers

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didn't think that way. Prior to Robert Tren Jones. He

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was the first brand name in golf, and he was

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part K. T. Barnum and part Alfred Hitchcock. I mean

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was he was this really ambitious character. He was a

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great He was a great pitch man. He wasn't really

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a great businessman.

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Speaker 4: As the book points.

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Speaker 3: Out, his wife, i Owne, who he married in nineteen

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thirty four. She was a five paid, five bitakap, a

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graduate of Wells College, and she was smarter than Hack

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and she really kind of ran the.

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Speaker 4: Business operation for Jones for most of his life.

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Speaker 3: And without her, you know, he probably would have failed.

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But he was just very, very good at convincing people

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that they should build golf courses, and he got to know.

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By telling his story, you're telling the story of most

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of the well to do gentlemen of.

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Speaker 4: American society who got involved.

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Speaker 3: In golf course development, everyone from the Laurence Rockefeller, who

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was building golf courses at some of his major resorts

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around the world, including Mona Kea in Hawaii, which became

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one of jones Is more prominent golf courses. Jones had

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correspondence with Bobby Jones and a close friendship with Gene Sarason.

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He corresponded regularly with Francis who met of course, you know,

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his courses, to his courses in the fifties and sixties

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and seventies.

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Speaker 4: You know, he's having interactions with you know, with Ben

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Hogan and Palmer and Nicholas.

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Speaker 3: So I really went into it thinking that there was

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by telling Jones's story and using that as the skeleton

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of the narrative that you could really tell so many

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different story is about the development of American golf, and

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I think that, in fact, you know, proved to be

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the case.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm gonna I don't think you definitely know when

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you're on a golf course who it was. I mean, sure,

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there's a couple of names, but you know, like when

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you talk about baseball or basketball, there's a couple of names,

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you know, but then there's everybody else, right, you know,

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you don't know when you're on a Robin Nelson course

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or a Brad Brewer course, and why would you Right,

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it's never the first, But when they're famous courses in

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resorts you're going to, it's like they market that absolutely.

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Speaker 4: And that started with Robert Trent Jones. You don't the

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brand name of.

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Speaker 3: The architect nearly meant virtually nothing in the marketing of

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the golf course, the promotion of the golf course to

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the public until Jones, until Jones after World War Two,

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and then it becomes you know, he sort of sets

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the standard that made it possible.

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Speaker 4: I mean, now, when we think about.

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Speaker 3: The great designers who were really really popular, I mean

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you're thinking about Nicholas and Bozzio and Tom Doak and

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cor and Crenshaw and gil Hans. None of those guys

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honestly could have had the careers they've had if not

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for Robert.

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Speaker 4: Try Jones, because he created the.

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Speaker 3: Profession and the model by which they would be successful,

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certainly financially, because he started to get major fees, you know,

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up to up you know, he was the first to

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get a million dollar fee for a golf course design.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And before then, I mean, even though Ross and McKenzie

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were much in demand, you know, they didn't get paid

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anything like Jones would get because Jones created that profession.

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Speaker 5: It was fascinating to me, h and answer me if

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I'm right in assuming this, But it seemed like the

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depression helped get him going.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, the New Deal that Franklin Roosevelt started, you know,

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besides supporting through the public money and public relief work,

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I mean, people that were unemployed were put to work

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building roads and go the WPA right of THEPA Works

250
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Progress Administration.

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Speaker 4: The first money that Jones really started.

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Speaker 3: To make as a golf course designer was in the

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state of New York, involved with WPA programs. There were

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a number of WPA courses that were built around the country.

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I mean Jones did a couple in New York, he

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did one in Florida, he did one in Illinois.

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Speaker 4: And those jobs paid. I mean, the government was behind them.

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Speaker 3: Whereas the jobs, the few jobs that he had gotten

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between say nineteen thirty and nineteen thirty five, you know,

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they were private jobs.

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Speaker 4: And you know, he was getting stiffed on most of

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the most of his bills. I mean he was. If

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you at the book, will show and based.

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Speaker 3: On the correspondence of his business records, I mean, this

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guy's living He's living almost the life of a pauper.

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He's going into a coffee shop and ordering, you know,

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the cheapest bowl of soup and the glass of water.

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I mean, he's not making any money whatsoever. And the

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wife to be I owned, Tef Davis, who was this

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de wutant from New York City. You know, completely different

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social classes.

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Speaker 4: That Jones grew up. He was an immigrant family.

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Speaker 7: He didn't even have a high school degree. The I

274
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own's father, who was an executive at Bell Telephone in

275
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New York City, wouldn't let his precious little princess marry this,

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you know, Robert Jones until.

277
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Speaker 3: Immigrant, Yeah, this immigrant, until he could prove he could

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make some money. So the WPA really is what lifts

279
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him into So it's a government, its state supported money

280
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that gets him going. And then the great irony of

281
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it is is the end of his career, after a

282
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number of very significant bad investments, which really bankrupted Jones

283
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in the late eighties in the early nineteen nineties, what

284
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comes along for him and saves his ba the Robert

285
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Trent Jones Trail, which is financed by state by a

286
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state retirement system. So on the front end of his

287
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career at state money and on the back end of his.

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Speaker 4: Career at state money.

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Speaker 3: But in between, you know, he had a roller coaster

290
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ride through all kinds of different projects, public and private.

291
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Speaker 5: I have a dream to go do the Robert Trent

292
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Jones Trail. It's hard for me to convince any of

293
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my friends to go with me coming from the West coast.

294
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Have you played those courses? Have you played the trail?

295
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Speaker 4: There's a few of them that I've not been on,

296
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but we had.

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Speaker 3: There's a Robert Trent Jones Society, a group of clubs

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that Jones designs that have come together in the past

299
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five or six years for the annual.

300
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Speaker 4: Meeting and they go to different Jones courses and they

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played for a few days and last week or last year,

302
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I'm so I'm sorry.

303
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Speaker 3: And last year the society decided to come to Alabama,

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and many.

305
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Speaker 4: Of these members of the Robert MS.

306
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Speaker 3: Jones Society never even been in Alabama before, I don't think,

307
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came and they played a couple of different of the

308
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couple different facilities here in the state, and the reaction

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was was really I mean, they couldn't believe what they

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were seeing.

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Speaker 4: Prices and everything the state of Alabama. You know, there's

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a lot some of the stereotype is correct. I've lived

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in the state and now for twenty six years.

314
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Speaker 3: I grew up in Indiana, so some of the stereotypes

315
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,919
are correct, but many of them are not.

316
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Speaker 4: And as you know, in terms of the natural.

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Speaker 3: Beauty and the environment itself, to go from the Appalachians in.

318
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Speaker 4: Northeast Alabama all the way down.

319
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Speaker 3: To the Gulf Coast in the mobile area, I mean,

320
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and in between, there's big rivers, lakes, rolling terrain, And

321
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that's what makes the trail so interesting.

322
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 4: It's the designs are very common. I mean, they're all

323
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Jones style designs. But the terrain and topography.

324
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Speaker 3: You know that because these facilities go from top to

325
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bottom in the state. You know, the gland itself dictates

326
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a lot about golf courses. I'm everywhere, and it certainly

327
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does in the trail. So yeah, you need to convince

328
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your your friends to come down here.

329
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Speaker 5: And so if I get if I get a long

330
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weekend and we get a chance to play three or

331
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four of the courses there, which ones would you recommend?

332
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Because I'm taking.

333
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Speaker 4: Notes, Well I'm biased. You know.

334
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Speaker 3: I live in Auburn and nearby our sister city is

335
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Opalaika and the Grand National Facility.

336
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Speaker 4: Almost all of the facilities are fifty four holes. There's

337
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to eighteen hole courses and then a short course and

338
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:37,839
the short courses are.

339
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Speaker 3: I mean a short course at Grand National is the

340
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hardest park of the course you'll ever want to play. Really, Oh,

341
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I mean the holes are you know, everything from you know,

342
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from one fifty to two fifty in distance and.

343
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Speaker 4: It's all around this lake and the carries and bunk.

344
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I mean, it's it's a really really difficult short course.

345
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But I would start, I would come to Auburn. I

346
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mean it's we're only an hour and fifteen minutes from.

347
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,799
Speaker 8: Atlanta, so you can Atlanta Airport so you can find Atlanta,

348
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,680
get over here to Auburn real easily, and then grafts

349
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drive over a fifty minute drive from Auburn over to Montgomery.

350
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Speaker 4: Just north of Montgomery is a little.

351
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Speaker 3: Town called Prattville, And Prattville has a fifty four whole

352
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facility that's.

353
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Speaker 4: Called and it's.

354
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Speaker 3: Called the Capital, and it's kind of the home base

355
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of the trail since the retirement systems of Alabama, and

356
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is located in Montgomery. So I would do that if

357
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you only had two or three days. But if you

358
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were talking to people from Montgomery, they would say for

359
00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:40,759
you to come to Montgomery because there's two trail facilities

360
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right there. There's ross Bridge that has hosted a Senior Open,

361
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a senior event for many years, and then there's Oxmore

362
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Valley as well, and then Birmingham itself has Birmingham had

363
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:55,640
some has some great golf. Birmingham country Club is Donald

364
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Ross Courses. Of course, there's the Nicholas Course that as

365
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,920
hosted a PGA.

366
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Speaker 4: So Alabama's got a lot of great golf.

367
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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, we get to play pretty much year round, except

368
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for you, except for maybe a few weeks in the

369
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middle middle of winter when it gets a little too

370
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,279
cold or we get a dusting of snow.

371
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Speaker 5: But what about spring, summer, fall, which would be the

372
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best time to come fall?

373
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Speaker 3: I have question fall, and then you can also benefit

374
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from SEC football.

375
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Speaker 4: You can. We'll get you to a.

376
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Speaker 3: You know, an Auburn football game or an Alabama game,

377
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and you'll see what SEC.

378
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Speaker 4: Football is all about.

379
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Speaker 3: I went to Wio Date for graduate school, so I know,

380
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,400
you know, I know what Big ten football is, and

381
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,519
I know it's it's very popular, and you know it's

382
00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:46,400
got a lot of fanatics. But SEC football is such pageantry.

383
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,720
I don't think there's anything compared to it. So if

384
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you came down in the fall, sometime in October and

385
00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:53,559
we could get you at a night game, say LSU

386
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,000
at Auburn. You'd have a And we did that when

387
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,440
the Roberts and Jones society people came, and I can

388
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tell you, to a man, these gentlemen or I mean,

389
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,759
they talked as much about going to that football game

390
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,880
as they did playing the golf courses.

391
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 5: Awesome. I'm gonna I'm gonna get in touch with you

392
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,000
before we come down and you're coming with us.

393
00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,599
Speaker 4: Absolutely, you know that would be great.

394
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,759
Speaker 5: That would be so much fun. So I'm I'm curious,

395
00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:24,359
did you in writing this book and choosing him, did

396
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,799
you like him more before you started writing the book

397
00:20:28,079 --> 00:20:30,119
or after you started writing the book.

398
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,799
Speaker 3: That's a really good and tough question for me to answer,

399
00:20:34,839 --> 00:20:38,079
because I think anyone who reads it will know that

400
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,039
I've given a kind of a warts and all profile

401
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:43,000
of mister Jones.

402
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:43,559
Speaker 5: Huh.

403
00:20:44,039 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 4: He's not a perfect person. Who is? But he is?

404
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:49,839
Speaker 5: But he would tell you he is.

405
00:20:50,519 --> 00:20:50,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

406
00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 5: I got the sense his ego is enormous.

407
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, And I've.

408
00:20:55,519 --> 00:21:01,279
Speaker 5: Met I met Junior, and his ego has filled the room. Yeah.

409
00:21:01,319 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 3: Well, I think maybe even more so than the data

410
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,240
in that case, But no, I honestly like I like

411
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,160
Jones a lot. I mean, when you you know, I

412
00:21:11,319 --> 00:21:13,640
lived the life of Jones. When I write the book,

413
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,160
you know, that's just kind of what the biographer has

414
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,720
to do. You lived the life of the person. And

415
00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:22,000
there are times when you regret decisions.

416
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:22,880
Speaker 4: That he made or did not make.

417
00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 3: And I could go through you know, some of them

418
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,759
are mistakes that he made in terms of business investments,

419
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,200
you know, some were mistakes, and the ones that bothered

420
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,519
me the most were things that had to do with

421
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,599
you know, with personal issues. I mean early on, for example,

422
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,920
his career got started because he became an associate of

423
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,759
a Canadian architect by the name of Stanley Thompson, very prominent,

424
00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,079
probably the most prominent Canadian architect and one of the

425
00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,039
great architects really ever in the world. And Jones as

426
00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:58,359
a young man, because he didn't have any credentials, the

427
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,960
clubs that were interested and maybe using Jones wanted to

428
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,680
have Someboddy with experience looking over Jones's shoulder at least,

429
00:22:05,759 --> 00:22:09,279
and so Jones went into a partnership with Stanley Thompson,

430
00:22:09,599 --> 00:22:10,119
you know, as.

431
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,000
Speaker 4: Soon as he went into business in nineteen.

432
00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:15,079
Speaker 3: Thirty and Thompson really treated it with treated him like

433
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,039
a son and treated and gave him a lot of business.

434
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,319
And then there came a time after Jones, you know,

435
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,079
was getting these jobs through the New Deal money and

436
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,720
all of that, when Thompson wanted Jones's help, wanted him

437
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,240
to come down to South America to help him do

438
00:22:31,319 --> 00:22:34,160
some work down there. And it seems like Jones kind

439
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,400
of committed to doing that, and then he didn't do it,

440
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,400
and he kind of, you know, when he needed Thompson,

441
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,359
he used him, and then when he didn't need him,

442
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:42,960
he kind.

443
00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:43,759
Speaker 4: Of ignored him, you know.

444
00:22:43,839 --> 00:22:47,039
Speaker 3: And so there were certain things that happened, you know,

445
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,799
in that way as a biographer, you know, living the

446
00:22:49,839 --> 00:22:51,920
life of the person that you're studying, where you say,

447
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,319
why are you doing that? You know, I didn't go

448
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,039
ahead and do that. You had promised Stanley you were

449
00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:00,799
going to Brazil and now your opping out on it.

450
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,359
You know, So you do do things like that. But

451
00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:08,200
in the end, I mean, I certainly admire what he did,

452
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,960
and I you know, have greater appreciations or what it

453
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,720
takes to design and build golf courses. I learned a

454
00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:19,880
lot about the processes of that and do I like

455
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,440
him anymore or less. I think I probably have to

456
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,039
say I value him more because I have a greater

457
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,920
deeper understanding of the man and and what motivated him.

458
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:31,599
Speaker 4: And you know, I certainly.

459
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 3: I can tell you one thing may seem a little

460
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,559
a little strange, But I played the Cornell course that

461
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,519
he designed, if I played by myself one evening when I.

462
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,839
Speaker 4: Was doing archival research, and I sneaked out.

463
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 3: And I think I was the only one in the

464
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,720
course that was kind of raining, and I kind of

465
00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:49,039
pretended I was playing the.

466
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,799
Speaker 4: Golf with with Robert Trent Jones.

467
00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 3: It was his golf course, and you know, I was

468
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,400
kind of just in my mind imagining what kind of

469
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,720
conversation I would have, what he would tell me about

470
00:23:57,759 --> 00:23:59,480
this hole or that bunker.

471
00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 4: And so you do sort of develop kind of this.

472
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,759
Speaker 3: Personal relationship with the person you're studying, because you just know,

473
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,240
you know, there's not much about them that you don't know.

474
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,880
And through my oral interviews, I you know, had long

475
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,559
interviews with both of his sons and with other people

476
00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:20,200
that worked for him, and with had all those love letters,

477
00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:22,720
and I had on along interviews with the man who

478
00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:25,920
was his personal physician for many years, so you just

479
00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:26,799
really get.

480
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,519
Speaker 4: To know the person.

481
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 3: And I'd have a hard time in writing a biography

482
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,359
of somebody that I just detested. I mean, like, I

483
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,799
couldn't imagine imagine writing Adolf Hitler's biography. There have been

484
00:24:36,839 --> 00:24:38,400
a bunch of them, so they don't we don't need

485
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,480
one of those. But I don't think I could write

486
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:44,200
one of someone that I just I just had totally

487
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,519
you know, despise. And that's certainly not the case with

488
00:24:47,599 --> 00:24:51,559
mister Jones. I find him, you know, very endearing. I

489
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,160
just I regret some of the foibles in his personality

490
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,160
and some of the choices that he made. But if

491
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,559
someone did my biography, they they find even more to

492
00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:02,279
complain about.

493
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 5: The prolific and very successful biographer, Doris Kruns Goodwin is

494
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,240
said that she feels like she has to go to

495
00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:19,839
bed and wake up with this person. You you like,

496
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,759
you said, you just live your life with this Harrison.

497
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,799
And so there are presidents you know that we're herd topic.

498
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,160
There are presidents that she just doesn't want to go

499
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,400
near because she just doesn't think she could go to

500
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,519
bed with them every night.

501
00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:35,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, you do, and they keep you up you know,

502
00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:37,079
they keep you from going to bed too.

503
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,519
Speaker 4: I mean, my my the working habits.

504
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: You know, I've become very obsessive in when I'm writing

505
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,839
a book and my family. I mean, I'm I can't

506
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,920
my family just so, I'm almost impossible because everything I'm

507
00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:54,119
talking about, I'm just constantly thinking about the character that

508
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,400
I'm writing about, and I want to share and you know,

509
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,920
what I'm learning, and and they, you know, and unfortunately

510
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,000
a family's been very supportive, but you know, at times.

511
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 4: I'm sure they just get Dad.

512
00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:06,599
Speaker 3: You've got to you know, You're you're going on too long.

513
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,319
Let's move on to another topic.

514
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:08,759
Speaker 4: Leads.

515
00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 5: Enough about him, what about me? No, he you mentioned

516
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,480
he didn't have credentials before he started working with Stanley Thompson.

517
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,799
I mean, he really wasn't very well educated, if at all.

518
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,960
He didn't go to college. He didn't have it. He

519
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,160
was able to convince Cornell to yeah, to start a

520
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,000
program to teach him how to do this. I mean,

521
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,519
he really was focused on wanting to be a golf course.

522
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,559
Speaker 3: Architect, absolutely, And it wasn't that they convinced him to

523
00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:40,960
start a program. It was basically that just they would

524
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,920
give him special admission status to take just those courses

525
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,640
that he thought he might need, you know, some agronomy,

526
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,759
some landscape architecture, some business courses, some public speaking was

527
00:26:50,759 --> 00:26:52,200
a course he thought he needed to take.

528
00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 4: So he took two years of courses.

529
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 3: And the way that it worked out, because remember, here's

530
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,960
a guy that doesn't have a high school degree. How

531
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,400
does he get into an ivy league school like Cornell?

532
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 4: And the way it happened, and this is what golf

533
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:04,559
can do for people.

534
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,559
Speaker 3: Jones had as a young man in his early twenties,

535
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,559
got a position up at Soda Spay on Lake, Ontario,

536
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,960
a little golf course there. And one of the members

537
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,839
at so To Spey was a man named James Bashford

538
00:27:18,279 --> 00:27:21,720
who was the owner of a vinegar factory, and he

539
00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:23,839
was kind of a wealthy man, and he had been

540
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,160
a Cornell graduate. Well, it just so happens that, you know, Jones,

541
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,160
as the club pro and manager of this course at

542
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,960
Soda Spay gets he befriends mister Bashford, tells mister Bashford

543
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,880
about his interests, and mister Bashford, you know, being a

544
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,000
wealthy and influential person and a Cornell grad, said well,

545
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:46,519
let's see what I can do for you. So he

546
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,759
takes Jones down to Ithaca in his limsine and has

547
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:53,559
an appointment made with the Dean of Agriculture. And it's

548
00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:59,359
really through Bashford's intercession that Jones is permitted to do this.

549
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,359
Jones learns from that, I mean, maybe he knew it

550
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,759
even before, but throughout his air Jones cultivates friendships with

551
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,039
powerful people, I mean the state in the state of

552
00:28:10,039 --> 00:28:14,799
New York. When he's working on these w these PWWPA projects.

553
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:17,839
Speaker 4: He needs to have James Evans, and he needs to have.

554
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,319
Speaker 3: Robert Moses, the central figures in the New York State

555
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,039
Park System. He needs to have them on his side

556
00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:30,759
to give him these jobs. So he very consciously goes

557
00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:36,519
about cultivating friendships with powerful people. It's going to be

558
00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:38,839
I mean, all through his career. You can just make

559
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:42,319
a long, long list of the important people that Jones

560
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,319
cultivates friendships with, because it all started with James Bashford

561
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:49,039
taking this young guy down to Cornell and getting him

562
00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:51,519
into some courses that he would never have gotten in

563
00:28:51,599 --> 00:28:52,119
on his own.

564
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,079
Speaker 5: Clearly, the man was opportunistic, and we've already covered the

565
00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:01,279
egotistic part. What kind of family man was he what

566
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,039
was his family life like.

567
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,079
Speaker 3: It was kind of an absentee landlord. He was gone,

568
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,720
I mean by that. The boys were born in nineteen

569
00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:12,880
thirty nine, Robert and Jones Junior in thirty nine, and

570
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,000
Rhys Jones in forty one, and Jones's career really picks up,

571
00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:21,359
you know, in the post World War Two period, and

572
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,640
by the early fifties when the boys are just turning

573
00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:24,440
into their.

574
00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:26,599
Speaker 4: Teens, he's he's everywhere.

575
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: I mean, he's designing twenty different courses a year in

576
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,519
different parts of the country, and then you know, before

577
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:36,359
long he's off into the Caribbean and then points beyond.

578
00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:40,359
So he's not home very much, honestly, and the task

579
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,559
of raising the boys really fell to his wife.

580
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,599
Speaker 4: I own and Jones. When he was home, you know, he.

581
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,839
Speaker 3: Would be Golf was always kind of part of it.

582
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,680
You know, he would take the boys to the driving

583
00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:54,240
range in the evening where if they were having a

584
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:57,279
family vacation, it would really be down to a work side.

585
00:29:57,359 --> 00:29:59,559
Speaker 4: If he was working on a course at Myrtle.

586
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 3: Beach or you know, down in Florida, the family would

587
00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:05,079
jump in the car with him, but he would still

588
00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:09,000
be basically working. So you know, and not a father

589
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:12,319
that was you know, really hands on very much with

590
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,039
his boys, and the whole issue of the few that

591
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,480
develops between the two sons, and it gets very very

592
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,519
and it still is. It's something that will never get resolved,

593
00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:26,400
and the book sort of goes into the some of

594
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,559
the issues of how this family sort of becomes dysfunctional.

595
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,160
Jones not being there, not being hands on, I think

596
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:37,240
is part of is part of the explanation for that.

597
00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:38,960
I don't I don't think he was a bad father.

598
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:41,440
I think he was just like a lot of fathers

599
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,880
maybe of that generation in particular.

600
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 4: Who who you know, where a career.

601
00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: Was put first and his love of golf was put first,

602
00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:54,319
and his ambitions which required all kinds of travel. The

603
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,359
boys just you know, they they just sort of grew up,

604
00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:00,759
you know, on their own with their other but then

605
00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:02,160
they went to work for their dad.

606
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like, how did it get to the point

607
00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:07,880
where they're both going, that's what I want to do dad,

608
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,960
you know. Yeah, that's amazing to me that if they

609
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,799
don't have a close relationship and he's an absentee guy,

610
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:16,720
that they still see this as glamorous enough to I

611
00:31:16,759 --> 00:31:17,720
want to go do that too.

612
00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.

613
00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: That is a very interesting issue. I think for the

614
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,279
oldest son it's maybe a little bit easier to understand.

615
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 4: He is the namesake. He's Robert tren Jones junior.

616
00:31:28,599 --> 00:31:31,559
Speaker 3: He's quite a good golfer as a young as a boy,

617
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,440
he plays in a lot of tournament events, and plays

618
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,839
high school golf on a championship team, and goes to

619
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,640
Yale and plays on the Yale team.

620
00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:42,519
Speaker 4: So he's and the two boys. In fifty four.

621
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,279
Speaker 3: When the openers played at Baltus Royal, Jones took the

622
00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:49,359
two boys as teenagers. And one thing that Jones did,

623
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,920
which was unprecedented for the USGA at the time, was

624
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,240
he was keeping track of driving distances for the pros.

625
00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:01,279
Very systematic measurements and record kept of how far the

626
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:04,240
pros were driving the ball, because Jones wanted to know

627
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,759
when he was remodeling a course or designing a new one,

628
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:09,759
where those fairway bunkers.

629
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 4: Needed to be.

630
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,559
Speaker 3: You know, if they some of the in the old

631
00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:16,279
classic courses of ross, for example, or chillinghasts, the bunkers

632
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,640
might have been out between two hundred and two twenty. Well,

633
00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:22,039
you know, all the pros are driving over that and

634
00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:24,359
so when Jones came in to redo the courses, he

635
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,759
had to have measurements. Well, he would take the boys

636
00:32:26,759 --> 00:32:28,680
along and they would sort of chase the balls down

637
00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:31,400
for him, you know, they would help he was. They

638
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,960
were allowed inside the ropes when ropes were first used,

639
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,039
I think, which was at Valdskaul, and so the boys,

640
00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:40,359
you know, they got to see they were taken to

641
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,599
the Masters a couple of times, so they got to experience.

642
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: Golf at a very high level.

643
00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:49,279
Speaker 3: But Bobby wasn't, you know, oldest wasn't planning to be

644
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,359
a golf architect. He went to law school at Stanford,

645
00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:57,200
and you know his version is that he you know,

646
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,720
he kind of lost lost interest in and another version

647
00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:04,759
might be that he funked out. But he decided at

648
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:07,160
that point that he was going to you know, that

649
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,759
he was going to go to work for his dad,

650
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:12,119
but not on the East coast where the Jones operation

651
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:14,799
was based, which was in Montclair, New Jersey. But he

652
00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:16,880
was going to stay out in California and create a

653
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,319
West coast office in Palo Alto, which is what he did.

654
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:21,119
Speaker 4: Uh.

655
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: And it didn't take long for Jones Junior to sort

656
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,200
of go his own way. You know, he learned it,

657
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,599
learned it from his dad, but he, you know, he

658
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:32,720
wanted to be out on his own. And the book

659
00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:35,559
goes into some detail about the process by which Bobby,

660
00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:39,319
you know, uses this West Coast office which was ostensibly

661
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,119
to be you know, an expansion of Robert turn Jones, Inc.

662
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,119
Speaker 4: The parent company, while Bob.

663
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,759
Speaker 3: Goes on to use that base to create his own,

664
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,599
you know, his own company. Reese is the more interesting question,

665
00:33:53,839 --> 00:33:56,720
you know, the younger brother. Why would the younger brother,

666
00:33:56,799 --> 00:34:00,440
who's having issues with the older brother, why would he

667
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,559
try to become a golf architect too.

668
00:34:03,759 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 4: I mean, I have an older.

669
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,799
Speaker 3: Brother and the last thing I tried to do when

670
00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:08,760
I grew up is, you know, I needed to do

671
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,480
something very different from him.

672
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 4: And yeah, but Reese wasn't like that.

673
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,199
Speaker 3: In fact, Reese, honestly he he had the idea of

674
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:20,119
being a golf course architect, probably before Bobby did, and

675
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,199
because when he went after he graduated from Yale, he

676
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,280
decided to go into a landscape architecture.

677
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 4: Program at Harvard, which which he did, and.

678
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: So he was intending even I saw his letter when

679
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,000
he was applying for college, and he was talking to

680
00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:40,000
golf course architect and following his father's footsteps even then.

681
00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:43,440
So Reese kind of just has decided to do this

682
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,039
even before Bob. But Bob, you know, because things didn't

683
00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:50,159
work out with the law, Bob decides, well, and he's

684
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,519
got the name after all, I mean, he's got he's

685
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:56,880
right there with Robert Trent Jones, so he decides that

686
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,519
that's the best career for him as well.

687
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,599
Speaker 5: Are there three distinct different styles between the Joneses on

688
00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:11,039
their on their design work.

689
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 4: Well, that's really a great question. I think that you know,

690
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,199
I've played all a.

691
00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 3: Number of all three, and there's certainly some things in

692
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,559
common between the father and the two sons, but there

693
00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:27,639
are also some clear distinctions, and there's some clear distinctions

694
00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:28,800
between Reese.

695
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:30,199
Speaker 4: And and and Bobby.

696
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:35,039
Speaker 3: I think Bobby, you know, is is you know, probably

697
00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:39,079
he's he's less into doing the championship courses, although he

698
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:41,360
did in Chambers Bay, out.

699
00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 4: In Jugit Sound, Washington.

700
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 3: You know, it's going to host the Open in a

701
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,599
couple of years, and so it's not that he's uninterested

702
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:50,559
in championship designs. But Reese, you know, kind of took

703
00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:53,079
on the mantle of his father of the Open Doctor

704
00:35:53,199 --> 00:35:55,519
and has been used by the u U, s g

705
00:35:55,639 --> 00:35:57,440
A and the p g A, you know a number

706
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,880
of times to to redo championship courses. One thing that's

707
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,679
really interesting about Reese's courses, the redesigns that he does

708
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,039
of his dad's, is that, uh, he changes his dad's

709
00:36:09,079 --> 00:36:11,199
courses in some pretty significant ways.

710
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,159
Speaker 4: And when the father was still living.

711
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 3: There's some correspondence, for example, about Congressional that that mister

712
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,000
Jones had redesigned back in the sixties, and then Reese

713
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,280
comes in and does a couple you know, major remodelings

714
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,320
at Congressional in the eighties and nineties that when mister

715
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,079
Jones is still living, he's writing letters to to Reee

716
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:35,480
kind of complaining about what Reese is doing to his courses.

717
00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:39,480
And so there is you know, Bobby suspects, I don't

718
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:42,079
really take it quite this far, but you know, Bobby

719
00:36:42,679 --> 00:36:48,039
suspects that Reese was sort of consciously or unconsciously undoing

720
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:49,760
some of his dad's designs.

721
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:50,639
Speaker 4: You know that he was.

722
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 3: He was he wanted them different, he wanted them to change,

723
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,559
he wanted them to be distinctive of his own style.

724
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,519
And and I think there is there is some truth

725
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:02,840
truth to that. So yeah, you can tell the differences

726
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,480
between between the three, but there are also some some

727
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,320
similarities as well, because they all kind of learned.

728
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:11,559
Speaker 4: I mean, the boy learned a.

729
00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 3: Lot about courses are not just from their dad, but

730
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,800
from the super from the men who were in charge

731
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,159
of building Jones's golf courses, a man by Bill by

732
00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:24,880
the name of John Schmeiser and Bill Baldwin. And since

733
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,199
the boys didn't want to listen to the dad that much,

734
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,760
that wasn't especially true. In the case of Reese, the

735
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,039
father put his construction form in charge of basically showing

736
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,639
recent body how how you build golf courses, and so

737
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,920
they learn, you know, the logistics and the nuts and

738
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,159
bolts of golf course construction really from the same same people,

739
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,360
and that that meant a lot of carryover.

740
00:37:50,159 --> 00:37:53,079
Speaker 5: So then what happened between the two brothers.

741
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 4: Well, it goes it goes back to their boyhood. I

742
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,480
I you know, I don't.

743
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 3: I would have to be a professional psychologist really to

744
00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:07,519
explain what it is. I think Bobby as a young

745
00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:11,239
as a boy and going into his teenage years, I

746
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,880
think Bobby just became Bobby, and you know, Bobby had,

747
00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:19,800
has a strong ego, has strong ambitions of his own,

748
00:38:20,039 --> 00:38:23,079
and he's not the kind of you know, he would

749
00:38:23,119 --> 00:38:24,880
be a hard you know, he would be a hard

750
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,719
older brother to have. And I think it was hard

751
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,599
for Reese from the beginning because Bobby wasn't a protecting,

752
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:36,760
you know, supportive, you know, he was just a difficult

753
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,440
older brother to have in a lot of ways. And

754
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:43,079
it just got worse and worse once they started, you know,

755
00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:46,280
once they were in business with their dad, the differences

756
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,840
they had, the differences of opinion that they had over

757
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,360
how the parent companies.

758
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,159
Speaker 4: Should be should be handled, and then when they both.

759
00:38:53,039 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 3: Separated, they there were really hard feelings about how those

760
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,199
separations took place. I mean, Reese was very upset with

761
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,280
the way Bobby. He feels Bobby had taken advantage of

762
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,239
his dad when he went out on his own.

763
00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:08,519
Speaker 4: And then it just continues.

764
00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:12,159
Speaker 3: I mean that they've suit each other a number of times,

765
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,280
and they don't really have anything to do with one

766
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,639
another at all. And that made my book very challenging,

767
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,440
you know, because here I am in the middle of

768
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:24,519
the two of them trying to write an objective, you know,

769
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:28,000
third party account of their father's life, and I can't

770
00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:30,400
really tell that story without telling the story of the

771
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,119
whole family.

772
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 4: And somehow I've got.

773
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: To walk the tightrope between you know, two very talented

774
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:43,679
and experienced men in their field. But somehow I have

775
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,000
to be able to work with both of them and

776
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:49,320
get them to both help me understand what their father's

777
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:50,320
life was about.

778
00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:53,159
Speaker 4: And understand what's going on in the family. So it was.

779
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,559
Speaker 3: It was by far the most difficult book, you know,

780
00:39:55,679 --> 00:39:59,719
I've ever I've ever written. And there are people that

781
00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:02,800
know a bit about the Jones stories, either because they're

782
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,320
golf writers or a fellow golf architects, who have sort

783
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,599
of said to me in private, they just never thought a.

784
00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 4: Book like this could ever get done.

785
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,679
Speaker 3: That you know, there had been earlier attempts and the

786
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,119
problems dealing with Bobby and Reese on a project like this,

787
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,199
or you know, some people felt were just insurmountable, and somehow,

788
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,400
some way I was able to do it. I you know,

789
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,239
I have to. I could write a book about writing

790
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:29,599
the book.

791
00:40:29,679 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 4: Honestly, Wow, the stories that.

792
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 3: I could tell, maybe someday I'll I'll.

793
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:40,039
Speaker 5: That's why you're here, my friend. I want the stories.

794
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 4: Well, there are some real, real stories.

795
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 5: And do you write as you're doing your research, or

796
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,119
do you combine, do all your due diligence and gather

797
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,320
all the information, throw it down and start writing at

798
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:55,159
that point.

799
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of a combination of the two.

800
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 3: Certainly, when you're writing, you know, it's the fighting process

801
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,239
shows you where you have gaps in the story that

802
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,880
you need to fill in, So you know, I often

803
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,000
have to pause, you know, and reconsider and go back

804
00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:13,760
and find more documents, or call you know, somebody up

805
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,280
that's call one of the brothers up, or call you.

806
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 4: A key figure that I.

807
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 3: That was important to the book is a man named

808
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,280
Roger Rulwich, who was who worked for mister Jones from

809
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,039
nineteen sixty one into the mid nineties when he was

810
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,280
let go, and so he worked as Jones's chief junior

811
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,199
designer for thirty years, and of course worked with the

812
00:41:36,199 --> 00:41:40,000
brothers closely for a long time and is a friend

813
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,159
of Reese's, not so much a friend of Bobby's. So

814
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,400
there would be times when you know, a question about

815
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,119
a golf course came up, and I would get on

816
00:41:47,159 --> 00:41:50,400
the phone and call Roger up in Massachusetts and ask

817
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:53,199
him if he could answer this or that. So it's

818
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,239
kind of an ongoing thing. You start with a base

819
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,480
of research, and you know, I spent three summers in

820
00:41:57,559 --> 00:42:01,679
Cornell going through what really as a massive collection. I mean,

821
00:42:02,639 --> 00:42:06,159
it's equivalent to like if you had three hundred file

822
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,880
cabinet drawers stuffed full of stuff.

823
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 4: That's it's essentially what I had to look.

824
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 3: Through and not and beyond that, you know, since it's

825
00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:18,960
we're talking about an architect you know, they have these

826
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,679
cardboard tubes.

827
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,119
Speaker 4: You know, that are six feet long that are that

828
00:42:23,199 --> 00:42:25,480
are full of drawings, you know, rolled up.

829
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 3: Sketches and blueprints and so forth, of all the different courses.

830
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 4: Now I didn't use that kind of I didn't use those.

831
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,679
Speaker 3: Architectural drawings nearly as much as I use the regular documents.

832
00:42:35,679 --> 00:42:37,320
But from time to time I would have a question

833
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,000
about a course design and how it might have changed,

834
00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:41,719
and I would have to, you know, go back into

835
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,880
the architectural drawings as well.

836
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 4: So it's just a you know, it took.

837
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 3: It took those three summers, and even then, you know,

838
00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:52,639
I can't say that I looked at everything. You sort

839
00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:57,599
of have to sample, you know, the files, and sometimes

840
00:42:57,599 --> 00:43:02,159
you see a file, and it's and its title is

841
00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:04,880
something you don't think is really going to help you much, and.

842
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 4: So you might skip that one.

843
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: But you know, I suppose out if you say, here's

844
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,800
one hundred percent of the Jones material, I suppose I

845
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,440
looked at eighty percent of it, you know, and hopefully

846
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,039
the twenty percent that.

847
00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 4: I didn't look at, you know, either.

848
00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 3: Somebody else can make use of it someday or it

849
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:25,400
really wasn't you know that bible to me telling the story.

850
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:28,960
It's a five hundred page book anyway, so you know,

851
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,800
more research would have just resulted in more pages.

852
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 5: So from the time you decided to write the book

853
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,199
until you handed the final draft of the publisher, how

854
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,599
long a period was that, I.

855
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 4: Would say just less than two years, and.

856
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 5: Your full time job in the interim.

857
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,559
Speaker 3: Well, fortunately I had just come out of a six

858
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:57,800
year term as the director of the Honors College at Auburn,

859
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,079
and thanks to that administrative service, I had earned a

860
00:44:01,159 --> 00:44:04,599
year of paid leave. Wow, and so the university haging

861
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,239
and so I made Without that, I couldn't the book

862
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,320
wouldn't have been done yet. So I had a year

863
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,239
and and you know, and I work. When I start

864
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,880
to write, you know, it's it can be. You know,

865
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:19,239
I don't necessarily get up too early, but I had

866
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,800
lots of nights that were till three and four in

867
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,599
the morning. And as Doris Currins Goodwin said, you you know,

868
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,639
you go to bed and sometimes even dream. You know,

869
00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:29,960
there are things in your dreams that are related to

870
00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:32,639
what you're doing. Your mind is just so full of

871
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:36,880
the facts and questions. You know that you're just constantly

872
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:39,239
it's constantly agitating.

873
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:40,119
Speaker 4: In your mind one way or the other.

874
00:44:40,199 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 3: And it's an interesting it's a very interesting process to

875
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:43,440
go through.

876
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 4: But it's also it's somewhat tortuous, you know, it really is.

877
00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 3: You know, it's a difficult I give I gave up

878
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:54,639
golf through most of that.

879
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 4: I didn't know.

880
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 5: That's you know, I was thinking, I'm listening do you

881
00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:00,599
explain this and saying you had a year off? How

882
00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:02,559
diligent were you? How many days you just want to

883
00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:03,960
go I'm just going to forget it. I'm just going

884
00:45:04,039 --> 00:45:04,840
to go play golf today.

885
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 4: There weren't many days like that. Oh my god, you're

886
00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:10,400
the well.

887
00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:14,199
Speaker 3: No, I think manic maybe either, you know, I kept

888
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,039
looking down the road. I kept saying when this book's done,

889
00:45:17,199 --> 00:45:19,599
I should be have I should be having a lot

890
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:23,559
of opportunities, you know, hopefully getting invitations to go play

891
00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:26,599
some of these golf courses that I'm writing about. And

892
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:29,400
and so I'm hoping, and I think it's it's starting

893
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,079
to happen. I'm already getting some invitations from some of

894
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:33,599
the Jones clubs to.

895
00:45:33,559 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 4: Come and talk about the book.

896
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: And yeah, and I'm more than willing to come. So

897
00:45:39,039 --> 00:45:43,000
if you haven't contacted me yet, please do so, because

898
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,239
I'd love to. I haven't played Hazel Team, I haven't

899
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,719
played Bell Reeve. You know, There's just so many Jones

900
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,239
courses that I haven't played. And and I you know,

901
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,920
so I'm going to try to make up for some

902
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,039
of those golf rounds I didn't get to play.

903
00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 5: As prolific as he was. And as we established how

904
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,960
full of himself he may have been, are there courses

905
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,800
that he takes credit for that he shouldn't.

906
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,679
Speaker 3: Well, his sons would say courses that they designed rather

907
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:14,119
than him.

908
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 5: Is it the other way around? It's like the sounds

909
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:19,280
these are ours?

910
00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, there's there's there's a little bit of both.

911
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,199
Speaker 3: I mean, it was very at the end of the book,

912
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,639
there's an appendix where I list all the golf courses

913
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,719
that Joan Design designed or remodeled, and the trying to

914
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,360
define which ones to use is really is really challenging.

915
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,519
And what I ended up using as a criterion for

916
00:46:38,599 --> 00:46:43,000
that appendix was, was the course done under contract to

917
00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:45,960
Robert Trent Jones Inc. You know, that's the main company,

918
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,920
that's the New Jersey based company. And if it was

919
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,559
done by Robert Trent Jones, Inc. You know, then I

920
00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:54,239
think it deserves to be on the list. And Roger rule,

921
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,199
which you agreed with me, that that was the only

922
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,360
sensible way to do it. Of course, doing it that

923
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:05,039
way it means that a course, say like Eugene Country

924
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:09,039
Club or the renovation was done there, or a number of.

925
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 4: Courses that Bobby was involved with.

926
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:13,159
Speaker 3: You know, Bobby would have done most of most of

927
00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:16,000
the work, but it was done under contractor Robert Trent Jones, Inc.

928
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,239
So my position is, well, they both can.

929
00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 4: Count them, you know if they want.

930
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,599
Speaker 3: If you're counting courses, you know, if you want to

931
00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:25,400
do something like that, then if it's under contract to

932
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,679
the main company, you know, in most of those cases, Jones,

933
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:30,960
mister Jones would have done something. I mean, he would

934
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,920
have visited the property, produced them sketches that he would

935
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,239
have given the Bobby. If we're talking about, you know,

936
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,000
the West Coast courses or courses in Japan that they

937
00:47:40,039 --> 00:47:43,159
did together, he would have had some input, but he

938
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:45,800
wouldn't have He might have only visited the property once

939
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,280
or twice, and Bobby might have been there thirty times.

940
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,400
And so there are a number of courses that are

941
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,440
credited to mister Jones that really are done by either

942
00:47:55,519 --> 00:47:57,960
his one of his two sons, or by Roger Rulitz,

943
00:47:58,159 --> 00:48:02,719
or by Cavil Robinson, who headed up Jones's European operation.

944
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,159
But I don't really I mean, I don't begrudge him

945
00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:11,119
those really at all. And I think maybe the most

946
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:15,880
interesting crediting issue that comes up is relates to Augusta

947
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:21,280
National Agusta. In the late forties, Bobby Jones brought Trent

948
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,519
in to do some significant remodeling of some of the

949
00:48:24,559 --> 00:48:27,360
holes at Augusta Number sixteen, as.

950
00:48:27,199 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 4: We know it, one of the great par threas in

951
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:30,960
the world, was a very.

952
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 3: Different hole before Trent Jones came in and redid it.

953
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,000
It was just a little The tea was right behind

954
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:38,800
the fifteenth green. There was a little creek. It wasn't

955
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,400
a lake. There was just a little creek, and the

956
00:48:42,079 --> 00:48:44,119
green was on the would have been left of wards.

957
00:48:44,199 --> 00:48:47,119
It is now over that creek. It was a bad hole.

958
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:49,960
Trent and the membership and the people who had been

959
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,440
playing the masters thought that sixteen was a week sister.

960
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,639
And Jones comes in and redesigns that hole completely.

961
00:48:56,679 --> 00:48:57,559
Speaker 4: I mean, it's his hole.

962
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 3: He redesigns the eighteenth green in the mounding around it,

963
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:07,280
he redesigns the thirteenth green. He's the one that creates

964
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,280
the tee on eleven. He changes eleven from a really

965
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,159
a dog leg right three hundred and fifty yard hole

966
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,679
with a green where that lake that you know.

967
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,199
Speaker 4: Isn't isn't there to know.

968
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,679
Speaker 3: He finds a tee area back to the left, turns

969
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,760
it into a longer four hundred yard part four that

970
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,039
really kind of turns to the left and has that

971
00:49:28,679 --> 00:49:31,719
and the green gets extended around this lake. And what's

972
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,320
interesting about this is Augusta National doesn't want to it

973
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,159
never has credited Trenton Jones for the work because they

974
00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:39,440
don't want to take any attention away from McKenzie or

975
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:45,000
Bobby Jones, Clifford Roberts, longtime director of the of the Club,

976
00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:47,400
President of the Club and director of the Masters Tournament,

977
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,679
you know, never wanted to give Trent that credit. But

978
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:53,840
you know, I've got documents that are letters. I mean,

979
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,039
I have letters from Bobby Jones to Trent Jones, which

980
00:49:56,079 --> 00:49:58,760
is all about this remodeling work that Trent was involved

981
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:01,760
with in the late forties early fifties. So to me,

982
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,360
that was more interesting than maybe courses that he shouldn't

983
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,320
get the credit for. Here's maybe the most famous course

984
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,920
in the world except for the old course at Saint Andrews,

985
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,480
and he deserves some credit that Augusta.

986
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 4: Never gives him.

987
00:50:16,159 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 3: And so I mean, I'll be kind of interested to

988
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,440
see what the reaction is from Augusta, uh to what

989
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,719
I write about this in the book. But it's I

990
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,320
have undeniable documentation from in the hand of Bobby Jones himself.

991
00:50:29,159 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 5: Wow, did he have a course that was his show piece?

992
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,760
They're his favorite that he would like to you know

993
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:37,960
that he would say to people, this is mine.

994
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, he had an answer to that every time they

995
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,920
asked him, and the answer was the next one is

996
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,239
gonna be the next one.

997
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it's like when someone's to me, it's like,

998
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,920
what is the hardest shot in golf? The next one, the.

999
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 4: Next, the next one. Oh.

1000
00:50:55,559 --> 00:50:58,679
Speaker 3: He definitely had some favorites, but he you know, he

1001
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,199
always had that one line or you know, when to

1002
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,360
come back when anybody really asked him. But I think

1003
00:51:04,639 --> 00:51:07,599
Spyglass with a course that he was very very proud

1004
00:51:07,639 --> 00:51:11,400
of out on the Monterey Peninsula. I think he was

1005
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,079
very proud of the Dunes Club down of Myrtle Beach.

1006
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:17,719
I mean Myrtle Beach wasn't Myrtle Beach until I mean

1007
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:19,519
there was I think there was one course at Myrtle

1008
00:51:19,559 --> 00:51:22,519
Beach when Jones designed the Dunes Club in the in

1009
00:51:22,599 --> 00:51:24,840
the late forties. And how many courses are there Myrtle

1010
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,159
Beach now, I mean over well over one hundred, I think,

1011
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,599
so Jones is and so that's one of these designs

1012
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,960
that is well, very well known. I think he's proud

1013
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,880
of hazel Teine, even though it had a lot of

1014
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,400
controversy when seventy Open was played there and Dave Hill

1015
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,480
you know, said call it a Kyle pastor and said

1016
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,440
he would drive around into you know, drive a tractor

1017
00:51:47,559 --> 00:51:50,239
under the course if he if he won the tournament

1018
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,800
and and so. But I think Jones had they made

1019
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,199
some changes, and he had strong feelings about Hazelteen, Bell

1020
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,039
Reeve and Saint Louis. I think he was proud of

1021
00:51:59,039 --> 00:52:02,360
that one courses. I think of all of courses, maybe

1022
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,280
the course that's rated highest.

1023
00:52:04,639 --> 00:52:06,119
Speaker 4: If there was a recent.

1024
00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 3: Poll that the golf architects were raiding golf courses around

1025
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,880
the world, and I took a real close look at that,

1026
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,360
and the very top rated golf course by Jones.

1027
00:52:18,039 --> 00:52:19,599
Speaker 4: Was Valderama in Spain.

1028
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 3: Jones that was where the Ryder Cup was played in

1029
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,960
ninety seven. And before he did Valderama, in the same property,

1030
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,440
he did a course called Soda Grande and it was

1031
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,400
the first course where American turf grass was introduced into

1032
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:35,199
Southern Europe.

1033
00:52:35,679 --> 00:52:38,679
Speaker 4: And so it's a very significant course historically.

1034
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 3: And so Soda Gronde Valdorama, or certainly two of his

1035
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,960
better known It's Mona Kea in Hawaii. I think that's

1036
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:51,599
another one early on in the Hawaii the popularity of

1037
00:52:51,639 --> 00:52:54,480
Hawaii as a tourist destination. That was part of a

1038
00:52:54,599 --> 00:53:01,119
Lawrence Rockefeller resort development. I think those are all really

1039
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,239
in the you know, in the ballpark of his of

1040
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:03,960
his favorites.

1041
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 5: Excellent. Wow, what an amazing story.

1042
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah it is, and uh it's you know, it's going

1043
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,840
to be challenging for me as I go around the

1044
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,320
country giving talks and try and keep it to twenty

1045
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,800
minutes if I can, Uh, you know, well, how to

1046
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,320
focus it because it is really an epic It's an

1047
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:26,119
epic American story, you know.

1048
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:27,119
Speaker 4: That's why I hope.

1049
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 3: People will give it, will read it that are not

1050
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,079
maybe not even huge fans of golf or golf architecture,

1051
00:53:33,079 --> 00:53:36,360
because it's a it's an incredible story of an immigrant

1052
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,159
coming to America with big dreams, big ideas, and and

1053
00:53:40,159 --> 00:53:44,719
and doing different things and finding ways to achieve his goals,

1054
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:46,800
but at a price, always at a price.

1055
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, and big is an understatement.

1056
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah it is.

1057
00:53:51,559 --> 00:53:53,559
Speaker 5: Well the name again, the name of the book is

1058
00:53:54,199 --> 00:53:57,719
a difficult part. Robert Trent Jones, Sr. And the Making

1059
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,920
of Modern Golf by James R. Hands, also the author

1060
00:54:02,039 --> 00:54:07,280
of First Man, The Life of Neil Armstrong. What boy,

1061
00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:09,639
what a dichotomy of going you have to write on

1062
00:54:09,679 --> 00:54:13,960
that one. That's amazing. Jim, thank you so much for

1063
00:54:14,039 --> 00:54:17,000
your time, and for the explanation and for your work here.

1064
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:21,280
This is spectacular. And I hope that I get together

1065
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:22,880
with you in Alabama and play some golf.

1066
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 4: You call me anytime.

1067
00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 5: Fred Well, thank you so much. Jim, thanks a lot,

1068
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:28,920
you

1069
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 4: Bet, thank you very much,