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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to why we do what we do? Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to why we do what we do?

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<v Speaker 2>I am your attempting to be culturally sensitive Host Abraham.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and I'm your I remember when this happened in

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<v Speaker 3>the nineties, Host Shane.

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<v Speaker 2>We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things

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<v Speaker 2>that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we

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<v Speaker 2>talk about the ways that we communicate with one another

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<v Speaker 2>and the history of that and what it all means

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<v Speaker 2>and where it sometimes was taken advantage of for various

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<v Speaker 2>political motivations. But if you're joining us for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>then welcome. I hope that you enjoy what you hear

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<v Speaker 2>in this discussion. And if you're a returning person, then

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for checking us out again and hope that

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<v Speaker 2>you keep coming back to listen to more stuff. Either way,

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<v Speaker 2>if you found us, you're here. We appreciate that, And

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<v Speaker 2>if you'd like to support us, you can do that

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<v Speaker 2>in a variety of ways. You can leave us a

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<v Speaker 2>rating in a review, like subscribe, tell a friend, join

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<v Speaker 2>us on Patreon. I'll talk more about those things at

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<v Speaker 2>the end of this discussion. But you're here, which is great,

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<v Speaker 2>And it is June seventeenth, so Happy Bunker Hill Day.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, and this is I think our holiday Eat all

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<v Speaker 3>your Veggies Day?

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>It is Global garbage Man Day garbage person or is

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<v Speaker 2>there a man who is like he is gar he

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<v Speaker 2>is the garbage man, like Sanna the President of the

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<v Speaker 2>United States.

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<v Speaker 3>Like, yeah, he is a garbage man.

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<v Speaker 2>He is a garbage man. Yeah, yeah, made of garbage,

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<v Speaker 2>spews garbage, lives in garbage.

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<v Speaker 3>Jesus. But is it not nice to call him a

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<v Speaker 3>garbage man because that's disparaging to people who actually work

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<v Speaker 3>in like garbage reclamation work.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that called good point sanitation sanitation? Yeah, they're much better. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>so that's the thing is we would call them sanitation workers,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, and they are better people than the garbage man.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. It is lgbt Q I A

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<v Speaker 3>plus Equal Pay Awareness Day.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh it is Pride month, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 3>Happy Pride months?

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<v Speaker 2>Folks. Yeah, I don't think we mentioned this. Sorry, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's great, that's very important. Good. Yes, National Apple

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<v Speaker 2>Strudel Day.

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<v Speaker 3>I love a good strudle carrying on, It's Stuart's Rootier Day,

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<v Speaker 3>Love root Beer.

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<v Speaker 2>Two Stuart's plu. Yeah, it is World Croc Day.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know if that's the shoe or the animal,

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<v Speaker 3>but I celebrate the animal.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm not sure we should the shoes like needs

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<v Speaker 2>a holiday, but okay, I mean I like their shoes.

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<v Speaker 3>I gotta.

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<v Speaker 2>They do make a good shoes.

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<v Speaker 3>I've never worn one, so I'm am I missing out.

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<v Speaker 2>They legit are good shoes. I mean, it's like no

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<v Speaker 2>that they are. They are good shoes.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, all right, all right, all right. It's World Day

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<v Speaker 3>to Combat Desertificate, desert, desertification, desert, DESERTI fish cake and drought.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one of those. It's one of those things. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>deserts are important ecosystems too. I mean I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>that we should be trying to create them in places

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<v Speaker 2>make more Yeah yeah, not in places that like a

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<v Speaker 2>aren't already in that transition phase. But don't need to

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<v Speaker 2>demonize deserts either. Anyway, moving on, it is Animal Rights

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<v Speaker 2>Awareness Week. I love that there's so many of these.

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<v Speaker 3>That's really ah, yeah, especially because we love animals. It's

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<v Speaker 3>Islamic New Year.

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<v Speaker 2>It is Learning Disabilities Week that's very important to us.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, it's yes. It's also National Clay Week, is

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<v Speaker 3>National flag week. Interesting, that's National Hermit Week.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's National Water Safety Week. And I think we're

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<v Speaker 2>also between this episode and the next one. I think

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<v Speaker 2>maybe the summer equinox happens. I'm not totally sure.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of things happening right now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're getting right up to the longest day of

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<v Speaker 2>the year. At this point, it's like it's in here somewhere.

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<v Speaker 3>Even though in the United States every day feels like

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<v Speaker 3>the longest day, given the current circumstances.

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<v Speaker 2>It it really does. Every day was longer than the

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<v Speaker 2>last one. Yes, yes, just is what it is. Okay, anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>you are here, Thank you for joining us. This episode

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<v Speaker 2>is going to attempt to discuss something called aave, which

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<v Speaker 2>is an African American vernacular English, but there is a deep,

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<v Speaker 2>rich history related to language development and black culture and

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<v Speaker 2>so ultimately understand that this episode is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a tip of the Iceberg discussion. Like we're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to cover as much as there is to cover, because

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<v Speaker 2>there is a lot to cover, but we do want

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<v Speaker 2>to try and get into it somewhat, and hopefully an

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<v Speaker 2>outcome of this is we have peaked your curiosity enough

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<v Speaker 2>that you go learn more about it because there are

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<v Speaker 2>some great resources. Go check them out. There's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about, because AAVE is a complex linguistic discussion

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<v Speaker 2>and there is a long history related to how it

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<v Speaker 2>has developed. So go seek those things out if you

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<v Speaker 2>are curious about it, because we've given you enough of

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<v Speaker 2>an appetite that you want to go learn more. I

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<v Speaker 2>think there's a really cool history here to know.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, absolutely so. In this episode, we are going to

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<v Speaker 3>learn what mister Burns, Nina Simone, Oakland, California, asl and

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<v Speaker 3>Sligh all have in common.

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<v Speaker 2>Perfect, perfect, Yeah, that's what I'm here for.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, of course, of course, the weird relational frames that

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<v Speaker 3>we create as a result of this. Now, okay, there's

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<v Speaker 3>a couple things I want to kind of unpack before

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<v Speaker 3>we get really into the weeds in this, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's really important for us to disclose at the

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<v Speaker 3>end of the day. I mean, I'm going to disclose

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<v Speaker 3>for myself at least I am a white man and

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<v Speaker 3>we are speaking about this content, and so we encourage

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<v Speaker 3>you if you are somebody who knows more about this,

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<v Speaker 3>or has you know a particular history with this, or

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<v Speaker 3>want to share stories about this particular topic. We would

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<v Speaker 3>love to hear from you, because we are sharing this

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<v Speaker 3>from and I we really tried to attempt to come

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<v Speaker 3>at this from a very like academic, scholarly objective standpoint,

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<v Speaker 3>but again, I'm sure I'm missing some stuff, and my

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<v Speaker 3>perspective is also going to color this a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>just by the very nature of my own identity. So

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's important to kind of put that up

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<v Speaker 3>front so that there are no surprises or shocks or

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<v Speaker 3>anything like that. But hopefully we cover this the way

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<v Speaker 3>that we want to cover this and at least open

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<v Speaker 3>the doors for like Abraham said, some information information seeking

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<v Speaker 3>for you.

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<v Speaker 2>At least I also am a white man, and so yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have I don't have the history, the culture,

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<v Speaker 2>the experience to be talking about this as if I

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<v Speaker 2>was ever immersed in a situation where I could speak

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<v Speaker 2>to this from my own perspective. And as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>like I think we have an audience demographic that largely

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<v Speaker 2>reflects our own demographic, and that's understandable, and having another

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<v Speaker 2>voice helped to share what is out there to learn

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<v Speaker 2>about other cultures feels like a good gateway for you

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<v Speaker 2>to find the creators who do belong to those cultures

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<v Speaker 2>who have a lot more to say about this, to

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<v Speaker 2>speak from their own personal experiences, So don't take us

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<v Speaker 2>as an authority. We are here to hopefully to just

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<v Speaker 2>be a vessel of communication to help get more information

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<v Speaker 2>out there so that people can go learn from the

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<v Speaker 2>people who really sort of lived this history and have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot to say about it. So, yes, I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's all very important, and I'm sure that you get

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<v Speaker 2>into this, but I want to let people know when

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<v Speaker 2>you hear us say something like African American vernacular English

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<v Speaker 2>in the nineties, if you're around at that time, you

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<v Speaker 2>probably heard this called something else, which was that it

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<v Speaker 2>was called ebonics. There were probably other names for it,

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<v Speaker 2>but there was a lot of discussion happening about this

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<v Speaker 2>at the time. I think arguably there still has been

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<v Speaker 2>some versions of this that have continued to play out.

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<v Speaker 2>There probably was long before that, but that was I

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<v Speaker 2>think the time when that sort of name and orientation

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<v Speaker 2>to it in the zeitgeist was common and sort of

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<v Speaker 2>a big deal.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we are going to talk about that because the

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<v Speaker 3>history of that, the word of bonics is really interesting.

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<v Speaker 3>But just so just to kind of lay it out there,

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<v Speaker 3>that is not the term that's used today to describe

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<v Speaker 3>it from an academic Scholl always standpoint like a more

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<v Speaker 3>technical space. And there's reasons why not just because it

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<v Speaker 3>has like some connotations, but because it doesn't capture everything

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<v Speaker 3>about AaB. Right, So just to kind of like spoil

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<v Speaker 3>us a little bit, the big catalyst event that we

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<v Speaker 3>are probably aware of happened in nineteen ninety six, ninety six,

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<v Speaker 3>ninety seven, like right at the end of ninety six

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<v Speaker 3>early ninety seven, when people were really starting to talk

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<v Speaker 3>about this. Do you remember a lot about when this happened,

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<v Speaker 3>like when people were really freaking out about this, and

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<v Speaker 3>like the term of bonics and stuff like that started

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<v Speaker 3>to show up in the zeitgeist.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of yes, I mean I definitely remember hearing it

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<v Speaker 2>discussed a bit, but I don't I don't remember like

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<v Speaker 2>what events there were specifically around it. I think it

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<v Speaker 2>was just a little more peripheral to what I was

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<v Speaker 2>sort of hearing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So I was thinking about this as I was

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<v Speaker 3>writing the notes, and I just because learning histories I

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<v Speaker 3>think are interesting. I remember when this came up, and

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<v Speaker 3>I think I remember this being a bigger deal to

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<v Speaker 3>me in my world because I went to a predominantly

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<v Speaker 3>black middle school, and so there was a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>discussion around the terminology and some of the statements and

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<v Speaker 3>the phrases that were used. There were I mean large

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<v Speaker 3>groups of I say large groups. So we didn't have

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of a lot of white kids that went

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<v Speaker 3>to our school, but the white kids that were there

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<v Speaker 3>were pretty flippant about some of the phrases and the

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<v Speaker 3>terms and stuff. And so they would start to kind

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<v Speaker 3>of like take those terms and we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 3>about kind of like what happens when you know, a

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<v Speaker 3>group of people who don't belong to a particular culture

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<v Speaker 3>used terms that don't belong to their culture and then

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<v Speaker 3>kind of appropriate it and whatnot. And that was happening

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<v Speaker 3>a lot. What seemed to be occurring at my school

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<v Speaker 3>was there was a lot of mockery around this, or

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of dismissiveness around this from like the white

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<v Speaker 3>population towards the black student body. I remember that being

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<v Speaker 3>very present in my middle school days because those three

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<v Speaker 3>years I went to a middle school that was, like

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<v Speaker 3>in my town, was the predominantly black middle school. It

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<v Speaker 3>just seemed like it was really in our faces for

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<v Speaker 3>many years as a result of this particular, like the

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<v Speaker 3>event that we're gonna talk about. In the nineties, it

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<v Speaker 3>just seemed like it was like right there in front

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<v Speaker 3>of us the entire time.

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<v Speaker 2>Nineties ads were always in your face too.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh god, some of them were good, though, Crossfire was

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<v Speaker 3>pretty pretty rad.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, we're back. We've been setting up sort of

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<v Speaker 2>the preamble here because we want to just lay out

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<v Speaker 2>the history. I think we want to where we have

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<v Speaker 2>personal connection to this, which is not a ton because

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't really grow up in the culture there were,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, being able to reflect that in our discussion,

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<v Speaker 2>but also like just sort of where we're gonna start

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<v Speaker 2>by laying out a lot of the definitions, the descriptions,

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<v Speaker 2>and then some history here.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Okay, so I think that there is a lot

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<v Speaker 3>to unpack, and I think the one thing I want

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<v Speaker 3>to start with is talking about and laying some groundwork

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<v Speaker 3>around the linguistic part of this. So to ensure that

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<v Speaker 3>we've got our terms to find. I love good definitions.

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<v Speaker 3>There are three terms that are used that are often

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<v Speaker 3>used when when people are talking about studying AAVE, and

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<v Speaker 3>that's dialect, ethn elect and socio elect Okay, So dialect

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<v Speaker 3>is specifically a regional variety of language distinguished by features

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<v Speaker 3>of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and

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<v Speaker 3>constutent together with them a single language. So dialects often

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<v Speaker 3>refer to like variations of a particular language, not not

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<v Speaker 3>as simple as like accents. Accents and dialects are a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit different, like an accent is like the way

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<v Speaker 3>that something is nunciated. But like, for example, Spanish dialects

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<v Speaker 3>across South America are very different, like when you talk

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<v Speaker 3>about Puerto Rican, South America and Central America, I should say,

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<v Speaker 3>because you've got Mexican Spanish that has a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>of a different feel, different language, different words, different meanings

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<v Speaker 3>versus like Chilean or Argentinian. Like, there are differences there,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's what we talk about with dialect. Dialect is

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<v Speaker 3>not not a difference between somebody from Boston versus somebody

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<v Speaker 3>from from South Florida talking you know and having a

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<v Speaker 3>different twang. That's accent, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Dialect is a is like very much so a difference

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<v Speaker 3>in the language.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, almost like its own standalone version of that language. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>both a lot of cognates too, Yeah. Ethnelect is a

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<v Speaker 2>language variety specific to a particular ethnic or cultural group.

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<v Speaker 2>And so then you're talking about sort of similar to

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<v Speaker 2>a dialect, I guess in a sense, is a way

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<v Speaker 2>that a language sort of becomes incorporated into an ethnic group.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if this totally counts, but like I

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<v Speaker 2>visited Jamaica once and there they they speak English because

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<v Speaker 2>of colonization, but it has sort of turned into it's

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<v Speaker 2>there's like this own version of English there that is

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<v Speaker 2>unique to the Jamaican people that I wonder if that

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<v Speaker 2>qualifies as an ethnolect. Yeah, because they have a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of their own words and like ways of saying things

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<v Speaker 2>that if you don't know what like the history behind those,

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't know that culture, it doesn't you wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be able to understand what they were saying someone who's

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<v Speaker 2>just sort of speaking maybe American English or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>probably like England English.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, Yeah, I think I think that that aligns because

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<v Speaker 3>I think that the ethnic elect part of that is

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<v Speaker 3>like Black Caribbean is part of that. Like, so you're

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<v Speaker 3>going to have those influences across many of the islands

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<v Speaker 3>and whatnot. Okay, And there's a reason why this is important,

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<v Speaker 3>and we're going to get to that in a second. Okay, So,

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<v Speaker 3>like we're not just saying like, oh, this language belongs

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<v Speaker 3>to groups. There's also soci elect and social elect is

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<v Speaker 3>a specific dialect, jargon or slang used by a particular

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<v Speaker 3>social group, So that refers to class systems and whatnot.

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<v Speaker 3>So at this point in time, we've got dialect, which

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<v Speaker 3>is the language itself that's kind of derived from from

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<v Speaker 3>all these different things. Ethn elect is language to a

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<v Speaker 3>particular ethnic group, and socio elect is language related to

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<v Speaker 3>a particular social group. Those three things always come up

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<v Speaker 3>when we talk about AAVE, and there's a reason why.

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<v Speaker 2>This sort of a mid Atlantic accent. It feels like

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<v Speaker 2>the select Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, all right. So,

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<v Speaker 2>African American Vernacular English or AAVE is a dialect of

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<v Speaker 2>American English, also sometimes known as Black English Vernacular or

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<v Speaker 2>controversially at bon X. Oh this actually, this reminds me

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<v Speaker 2>of the thing I wanted to say earlier. Okay, there

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<v Speaker 2>you go, yes, which is one of the things we

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<v Speaker 2>have brought up multiple times when we talk about being

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<v Speaker 2>sort of politically correct in this show, is it's like

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<v Speaker 2>it's not always just like there's an element of it

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<v Speaker 2>that's like, don't be addic to other humans, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is a relevant consideration. But a lot of the times

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<v Speaker 2>when we're pointing out like why a term is being

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<v Speaker 2>changed or abandoned is because it's inaccurate, right, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>include things, or it includes too many things or whatever

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<v Speaker 2>it is, it's just is not an accurate description. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's like it is in a f effective communication to

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<v Speaker 2>describe it this way. And that's why like slurs are

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<v Speaker 2>often like it's not just that it's like rude and inappropriate,

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<v Speaker 2>it's also like not an accurate way, and it could

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<v Speaker 2>be misleading if you don't actually know the real information.

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<v Speaker 2>So anyway, that's another reason like that we get on

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<v Speaker 2>that is that like let's not be dicks to each

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<v Speaker 2>other and let's be accurate in our communication if we can. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>So anyway, we were talking about here. Controversially it was

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<v Speaker 2>also called a bonics and then is Black English vernacular,

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<v Speaker 2>but we're sort of calling it African American vernacular English

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<v Speaker 2>for the purposes of this discussion.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, So, like we mentioned, the term a bonics is

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<v Speaker 3>not the current use we use aave. There are lots

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<v Speaker 3>of reasons why ultimately that precise language is what matters.

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<v Speaker 3>And I will say, like, historically a bonics was and

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<v Speaker 3>we're going to talk about the history of the term

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<v Speaker 3>a bonics and where it comes from. It comes from

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<v Speaker 3>a black psychologist and linguistics professor, so like it was

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<v Speaker 3>coined by members of the group. But it just is

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<v Speaker 3>not complete as we know it today. It's just not complete.

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<v Speaker 3>So what makes AAVE unique is that it is the

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<v Speaker 3>result of an intersection of varying demographics. Members of the

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<v Speaker 3>black community, members of the working class community, and the

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<v Speaker 3>middle class community in America. So you've got three different

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<v Speaker 3>identities there, Black, working class slash middle class and Americans.

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<v Speaker 3>Those three intersections together have created the kind of perfect

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<v Speaker 3>conditions in which AAVE starts to emerge and exist. And

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<v Speaker 3>there's a history with that. But that's why it's called

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<v Speaker 3>a dialect is because it does pertain to a specific

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<v Speaker 3>ethnographic and sociographic group of people.

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<v Speaker 2>Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, So

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<v Speaker 2>one important point to note at the top of this

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<v Speaker 2>discussion is that AAV is not slang. I think you

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<v Speaker 2>might hear this and think that, oh it's slang. It's

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00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:50.039
<v Speaker 2>like altered version of language or something where it's they're

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<v Speaker 2>just sort of speaking colloquially or off the cuff, but

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<v Speaker 2>rather it actually has unique linguistic properties related to grammar

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<v Speaker 2>and structure. We'll cover that in a bit, but I

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<v Speaker 2>think people might hear this and think, oh, we're just

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<v Speaker 2>talking about sling, but that's actually not what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It is its own sort of evolved vocabulary.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, And another important note here is that AAV is

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<v Speaker 3>not a monolithic dialect for everyone who is black. I

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<v Speaker 3>can't believe that we have to say this. It's exhausting

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<v Speaker 3>to say, I'm sure, and I'm sure it's exhausting for

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<v Speaker 3>members of the community to say as well, and to

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<v Speaker 3>hear sometimes and to hear sometimes. But I think it's

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<v Speaker 3>really important to note that it's not a monolithic dialect.

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<v Speaker 3>Just because somebody is black does not mean that they

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<v Speaker 3>are using AAVE. It's like saying that, like, everyone who's

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<v Speaker 3>white speaks with a Southern accent, like I would encourage

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<v Speaker 3>you all to use your noggins, folks, like. And again,

351
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:38.319
<v Speaker 3>accent is not not necessarily the same thing as dialect.

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<v Speaker 3>But it is really important to note that AAVE is

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<v Speaker 3>not at all like representative of every single person who

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<v Speaker 3>is black. That shouldn't be a stretch to think about.

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<v Speaker 3>But people really have a hard time with that. They

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<v Speaker 3>equate those things and it's that's not a logical equation.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, just understanding those important things, or as users

358
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<v Speaker 2>sort of saying, and like, assuming that everyone who's white

359
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<v Speaker 2>speaks of the mid Atlantic accent, it looks like we would.

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<v Speaker 2>You might look at us and expect those sounds to

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<v Speaker 2>come out of our face. But yeah, not a monolith.

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<v Speaker 3>Nope.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Well, we love history here, so we're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>get into the history. So, as of this episode, the

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<v Speaker 2>origins of AAVE are closely linked to British colonization of

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<v Speaker 2>the United States and American slavery. Surprise, surprise. Sure, it

367
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<v Speaker 2>is believed to have begun in Virginia and Maryland, quickly

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<v Speaker 2>moving to the Carolinas and Georgia during this time.

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<v Speaker 3>However, it is largely debated. What has generally agreed upon

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<v Speaker 3>is that the dialect is largely shaped by varying African

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<v Speaker 3>languages and Creole variations. So this mixed with American English

372
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<v Speaker 3>aided in the development of AAVE. So you've got groups

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<v Speaker 3>of people who come to the United States, forced to

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<v Speaker 3>come to United States with their own languages that are

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<v Speaker 3>learning English and learning the like as a result of

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<v Speaker 3>being forced into these spaces. You've got Creole, You've got

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<v Speaker 3>many languages coming in from Caribbean islands. You've got all

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00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.240
<v Speaker 3>these different kinds of You've got French influence and English influence,

379
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.200
<v Speaker 3>which you're going to talk about later. All of those

380
00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.079
<v Speaker 3>things are coming together to create kind of this like

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00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.960
<v Speaker 3>unique soup or stew that is ave. And you can

382
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:12.799
<v Speaker 3>kind of see that a little bit, which is really

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00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:14.960
<v Speaker 3>really fascinating. But I think it's when it comes to

384
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:16.920
<v Speaker 3>language and we talk about language in general, like we

385
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<v Speaker 3>talked about in the American accent and the English accent,

386
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.640
<v Speaker 3>there are so many sources of information that come together

387
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.640
<v Speaker 3>that create this kind of like unique thing that happens,

388
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.319
<v Speaker 3>which is the way that people talk. Another example I

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00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:29.599
<v Speaker 3>kind of really think about too, is like how the

390
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.839
<v Speaker 3>Internet has shaped a lot of our language, and like

391
00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:35.240
<v Speaker 3>that unique culture and that unique space, that unique variable,

392
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.759
<v Speaker 3>I should say, yeah, has really influenced the way that

393
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.200
<v Speaker 3>we talk to one another and how we communicate in

394
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.519
<v Speaker 3>writing and stuff like that. It's really I think valuable

395
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:45.680
<v Speaker 3>to look at language and look at where all those

396
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:47.160
<v Speaker 3>unique pieces that kind of shape it up.

397
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's kind of funny too. Do you think

398
00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:53.480
<v Speaker 2>about the internet communication that has developed, where people will

399
00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:57.000
<v Speaker 2>something that might be more effective to communicate via text

400
00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:01.920
<v Speaker 2>using like abbreviations is actually harder to say in abbreviations

401
00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.279
<v Speaker 2>that you're saying that loud, Like there's fewer syllables to

402
00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:07.880
<v Speaker 2>just say the words that those abbreviations represent, and yet

403
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.039
<v Speaker 2>people will still speak in abbreviation. So it's not about efficiency,

404
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.119
<v Speaker 2>it's just about culture that sort of exists. And not

405
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.319
<v Speaker 2>to say that that we're describing with aav is inefficient,

406
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.559
<v Speaker 2>just to say that, like, it just evolves a way

407
00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:24.000
<v Speaker 2>that it evolves, sure, and sometimes that it just looks

408
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:27.519
<v Speaker 2>different ways. Arguably, all languages have sort of developed this

409
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.279
<v Speaker 2>way where you just have a mix of variables with

410
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:32.640
<v Speaker 2>a lot of input and influence, and that change over time.

411
00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:37.559
<v Speaker 2>As we describe, part of what happened with English turning

412
00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:41.200
<v Speaker 2>into the accented British sort of English that we hear

413
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.079
<v Speaker 2>now came a lot from French influences and from classism,

414
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.279
<v Speaker 2>which is one thing we did an episode on that recently.

415
00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:56.920
<v Speaker 2>You can go back and check out Anyway I digress therefore, ads.

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<v Speaker 3>And adds as an example of language is shaped up

417
00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:02.839
<v Speaker 3>because it's easier to say than advertisements.

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00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.279
<v Speaker 2>That is true. That is true. All right, So getting

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00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:09.200
<v Speaker 2>into it, we've been talking about the history here of

420
00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.559
<v Speaker 2>AAVE and now getting into the term of bonics. And

421
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.240
<v Speaker 2>this was actually originally used in nineteen seventy three by

422
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.839
<v Speaker 2>a group of black scholars. Doctor Robert Williams combined the

423
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:23.559
<v Speaker 2>words ebony and phonics to attempt to create a respectful

424
00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:27.160
<v Speaker 2>term for the study of a a ve so ebeni

425
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:32.640
<v Speaker 2>phonics at bonics YEP. A brief discussion of doctor Robert

426
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.079
<v Speaker 2>Lee Williams. Boy, I almost thought for a second, said

427
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:37.279
<v Speaker 2>Robert E. Lee, And I was like, who named this

428
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:38.119
<v Speaker 2>person that?

429
00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:38.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

430
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:42.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, Anyway, discussion of doctor Robert Lee Williams the second.

431
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.279
<v Speaker 2>He was a professor emeritus of psychology and African and

432
00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:48.960
<v Speaker 2>Afro American Studies at the Washington University in Saint Louis.

433
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:51.880
<v Speaker 2>He was a staunch critic of racial and cultural biases

434
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:54.000
<v Speaker 2>in IQ testing. We did an episode on that many

435
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:57.559
<v Speaker 2>years ago and went on to develop IQ test sensitive

436
00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.880
<v Speaker 2>to cultural variations, including the Black and Diligence Test of

437
00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:02.319
<v Speaker 2>cultural homogeneity.

438
00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So I think that there's something really valuable in

439
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.400
<v Speaker 3>understanding that the term of bonics was created by members

440
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:11.240
<v Speaker 3>of the black community. And I think it's also important

441
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:13.759
<v Speaker 3>to break it apart and understand that it comes from

442
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:18.079
<v Speaker 3>black sound, right, phonics, like so black ebony phonics or

443
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:20.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, like the you know, the way that we

444
00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:22.599
<v Speaker 3>say something or the way it sounds like. That's and

445
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:27.400
<v Speaker 3>that's why it's not complete today, right, because ave includes

446
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.559
<v Speaker 3>grammar and syntax and structure and not just the sounds,

447
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:32.359
<v Speaker 3>but also all the things that go along with it,

448
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:35.680
<v Speaker 3>which is why it's not accurate to use a bonics

449
00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.119
<v Speaker 3>today when we're talking about this, and that's why it

450
00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:41.799
<v Speaker 3>is an old term, right. Okay, So I'm sure that

451
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:43.119
<v Speaker 3>you picked that up as we were talking about this,

452
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:44.160
<v Speaker 3>but I think it's really important to.

453
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.119
<v Speaker 2>Say no, no, that's great. I'm glad you clarified.

454
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:48.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Now, in nineteen seventy nine, a lawsuit was filed

455
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.920
<v Speaker 3>on behalf of black children and Ann Arbor, Michigan. They

456
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:54.119
<v Speaker 3>were elementary school students an Arbor decision, this is what

457
00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:56.279
<v Speaker 3>it was called the n Arbor Decision. It upheld that

458
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.279
<v Speaker 3>the school was not providing adequate education to black students

459
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:01.960
<v Speaker 3>at the school due to their inability to recognize their

460
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.559
<v Speaker 3>home language, which they described in this lawsuit as Black English.

461
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.240
<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

462
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:09.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so this was the first educational lawsuit of its

463
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:13.279
<v Speaker 3>time where the school was basically just saying, Oh, we're

464
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:16.000
<v Speaker 3>not accounting for this language that. We're not accounting for

465
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.920
<v Speaker 3>the way that our students are speaking. We're not accounting

466
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.839
<v Speaker 3>for the unique ways and influences that language is showing

467
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:25.319
<v Speaker 3>up in our English classes. We're trying to teach English classes,

468
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.759
<v Speaker 3>but we're having a hard time teaching them because they're

469
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.680
<v Speaker 3>using different grammar and syntax and structure, and so we

470
00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.039
<v Speaker 3>are basically doing a disservice to these students. And it

471
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:38.480
<v Speaker 3>was upheld this was a lawsuit that did make a

472
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.720
<v Speaker 3>difference and actually improve educational services for many of the

473
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:42.599
<v Speaker 3>students in the area.

474
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.759
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that seems like really early for something like that

475
00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:47.319
<v Speaker 2>to have worked.

476
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:50.480
<v Speaker 3>Also, right, I was like impressed by how early it was.

477
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:54.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Okay. A couple decades later, on December eighteenth, nineteen

478
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:58.519
<v Speaker 2>ninety six, AAVE was brought into the mainstream culture and

479
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:02.079
<v Speaker 2>the form of a resolution filed in California the Oakland

480
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Unified School District pastor resolution that AAVE would be used

481
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:10.359
<v Speaker 2>as a teaching option in standard English courses. This resolution

482
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.119
<v Speaker 2>also aim to provide resources to teachers to help learn

483
00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.559
<v Speaker 2>about AAVE and how to best support its use in

484
00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:20.319
<v Speaker 2>the classroom. You know, sort of somewhat related to this

485
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:23.720
<v Speaker 2>and what I do. We do a lot of academic

486
00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>instruction as primarily sort of the job that I have.

487
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:28.920
<v Speaker 2>It's a lot of remediation. But in our practice, we

488
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:31.440
<v Speaker 2>have some standardized tests that we use that have been

489
00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:34.839
<v Speaker 2>around for quite a while. But some of them what's

490
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:38.279
<v Speaker 2>kind of interesting because as language changes and evolves over time,

491
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:41.119
<v Speaker 2>there are some of them where you have to as

492
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.279
<v Speaker 2>part of the test, like select the correct word to

493
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:48.880
<v Speaker 2>complete ascendence. And interestingly, some of them have pronouns as options,

494
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:53.880
<v Speaker 2>and so kids have started choosing they instead of he

495
00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:58.480
<v Speaker 2>or she because it might not be specifying who the

496
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:00.559
<v Speaker 2>person is talking about. And so the the sort of

497
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:04.960
<v Speaker 2>neutral selected pronoun is they instead, and the answer key

498
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.160
<v Speaker 2>you lists this as an incorrect answer. But we've sort

499
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:09.799
<v Speaker 2>of just adopted as a rule that it's like this

500
00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:13.240
<v Speaker 2>is no longer a culturally relevant way to score this,

501
00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.400
<v Speaker 2>so any option that can be counted as correct, I'm

502
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:20.359
<v Speaker 2>an account is correct because that is technically as they're

503
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:23.759
<v Speaker 2>using their language a correct answer, and so it's kind

504
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:26.680
<v Speaker 2>of interesting that those tests were even designed with that

505
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:29.400
<v Speaker 2>as like a distinction. They felt that was so important

506
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.319
<v Speaker 2>that it needed to have a scoring criteria attached to

507
00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:33.960
<v Speaker 2>it in the form of a standardized test.

508
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:34.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

509
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.759
<v Speaker 2>Then, and I've sort of been the position that I'm like, well,

510
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.160
<v Speaker 2>that's just not how they how we speak anymore. So

511
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.680
<v Speaker 2>it's like, that's just not a relevant distinction to make.

512
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.720
<v Speaker 3>Right, Absolutely, I would implore anybody who's working in a

513
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:48.920
<v Speaker 3>helping profession who's using a standardized test to always be

514
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:51.519
<v Speaker 3>critical about the standardized test itself and whether or not

515
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:55.319
<v Speaker 3>it accurately represents current social norms, whether or not it

516
00:25:55.640 --> 00:26:00.000
<v Speaker 3>accounts for cultural variation, which in psychology many of them

517
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:02.319
<v Speaker 3>do not. As a matter of fact, I know we

518
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.599
<v Speaker 3>talked about these types of tests before, but I'm going

519
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:06.359
<v Speaker 3>to get on a soapbox for a second. Many of

520
00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:09.359
<v Speaker 3>the tests that we use are normed to college aged

521
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:14.359
<v Speaker 3>white men, who are generally neurotypical and do not account

522
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.279
<v Speaker 3>for the majority of the populations, and psychology has gone

523
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:22.519
<v Speaker 3>so far as to develop uniquely culture specific standardized tests

524
00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 3>because of the fact that all of the standardized tests

525
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.799
<v Speaker 3>that are often used and widely accepted are not normed

526
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.359
<v Speaker 3>to populations that they're serving. I think it's always valuable

527
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:32.880
<v Speaker 3>and I'm going to stress this to all the behavior

528
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:35.039
<v Speaker 3>analysts that are listening to this too, is it is

529
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:38.400
<v Speaker 3>worth evaluating the standardized test that we use in our

530
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.119
<v Speaker 3>field because most of them are normed to white autistic

531
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.240
<v Speaker 3>male children. Most of them are. And so when you

532
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.480
<v Speaker 3>go look at the standardization and like the VB MAP, shocker,

533
00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:52.039
<v Speaker 3>it is standardized to white male children with autism. So

534
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:55.759
<v Speaker 3>just an important feature of understanding this as we explore

535
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.240
<v Speaker 3>and why we explore why this resolution from the Oakland

536
00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.240
<v Speaker 3>Unified schol disc was so valuable for this class because

537
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:06.240
<v Speaker 3>the curriculum that was being used for the English class

538
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:10.279
<v Speaker 3>was not normed to the population that was being served, right, okay,

539
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.000
<v Speaker 3>so and many times educational standards are missing that too.

540
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:17.400
<v Speaker 3>So shockingly the school district puts out this resolution which

541
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.599
<v Speaker 3>is going to allocate money and time and resources to

542
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:23.119
<v Speaker 3>teachers and help support students. The US blows their skin

543
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:25.279
<v Speaker 3>lid over it. For those of you who don't know

544
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.000
<v Speaker 3>how the US works, something will happen in another state

545
00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:30.400
<v Speaker 3>and then somebody who doesn't live in that state will

546
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:32.720
<v Speaker 3>be very upset about it. Like the amount of people

547
00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:35.359
<v Speaker 3>that are furious about what's happening in New York who

548
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:37.839
<v Speaker 3>don't live in New York is absurd right now, Like

549
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.200
<v Speaker 3>mayor Mom, Donnie is doing some really cool things and really,

550
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:43.880
<v Speaker 3>like I mean from a legislative standpoint, doing some really

551
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.880
<v Speaker 3>great things and really changing the face of New York

552
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.400
<v Speaker 3>at least from my perspective. Yeah, it seems like yeah,

553
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.880
<v Speaker 3>and there are people in Alabama who are losing their

554
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:55.079
<v Speaker 3>minds over it. But this is what happens, Like politics

555
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.720
<v Speaker 3>have become such an identity thing that like they're furious

556
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:01.279
<v Speaker 3>about that, and apparently it's in the case forever.

557
00:28:01.319 --> 00:28:05.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, to be fair, like Texas goes about banning books

558
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:08.160
<v Speaker 2>and Florida goes about banning books, and people I think

559
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.480
<v Speaker 2>rightfully lose their mind when they impose those things. So sure,

560
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:14.559
<v Speaker 2>it's not necessarily the fact that it's one state commenting

561
00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:17.480
<v Speaker 2>on another, but it's like the fact that people aren't

562
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.279
<v Speaker 2>stopping to consider sort of the relevance here and like

563
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:23.440
<v Speaker 2>why this matters. It's like it just becomes it's a

564
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.720
<v Speaker 2>lightning rod to attract fear and get people riled up.

565
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:33.480
<v Speaker 2>That people use to try and like push a hate agenda. Yeah,

566
00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:35.960
<v Speaker 2>that I think is maybe the complaint that we would

567
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:38.680
<v Speaker 2>have because yeah, I'm like, you know, the problem with

568
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.960
<v Speaker 2>the censorship of burning books in these conservative places where

569
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.799
<v Speaker 2>they hate education and intelligence is that like it robs

570
00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.039
<v Speaker 2>everybody else there of their ability to learn and succeed

571
00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:55.160
<v Speaker 2>and thrive, right, because they're doing as a form of oppression,

572
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:59.000
<v Speaker 2>whereas in this particular situation, they're what they were trying

573
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 2>to do is be more inclusive and accessible, and like

574
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.119
<v Speaker 2>that's what people are freaking out about it. I'm like,

575
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.200
<v Speaker 2>if you are mad about more people having better access

576
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:10.119
<v Speaker 2>to things, you are on the wrong team, right, You

577
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:13.880
<v Speaker 2>are incorrect, and you're on the losing side of history.

578
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:18.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, objectively. So yeah, so this happens, so they file

579
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:20.680
<v Speaker 3>the resolution, everybody loses their minds. It gets to a

580
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.079
<v Speaker 3>national level, federal level. And the argument was that using

581
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.200
<v Speaker 3>AAV and this is just from the argument that people

582
00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:28.920
<v Speaker 3>were making against it, right, They were arguing that using

583
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:33.079
<v Speaker 3>AAV was a drop in standards for English classes, okay,

584
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.279
<v Speaker 3>which that's a different conversation. And they called the dialect

585
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:40.960
<v Speaker 3>lazy and broken, quote unquote lazy and broken. So a

586
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:42.759
<v Speaker 3>lot of it. This comes from and I'm sure that

587
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.680
<v Speaker 3>you're picking up on this already, it comes from a

588
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:49.880
<v Speaker 3>racist and class of space where like using language is

589
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.640
<v Speaker 3>a way to oppress people, and this happens. We did

590
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.480
<v Speaker 3>an episode on names where where people would apply for

591
00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:58.880
<v Speaker 3>jobs and they would use what could be considered quote

592
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.960
<v Speaker 3>unquote ethnic name, and they were not getting the same

593
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:05.079
<v Speaker 3>jobs even though they were overqualified compared to white names.

594
00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.680
<v Speaker 3>And so this is just another way that people are

595
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:12.640
<v Speaker 3>using education standards to oppress groups of people. Instead of

596
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:15.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, raising the tide so all the boats could

597
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:17.319
<v Speaker 3>raise with the tide, you know what I mean, all

598
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:19.000
<v Speaker 3>they were doing was going, no, we're not going to

599
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:20.400
<v Speaker 3>do this, and it's a problem.

600
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.319
<v Speaker 2>So a week after the resolution passed, Secretary Riley of

601
00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:29.599
<v Speaker 2>the US Department of Education or DOE RIP DOE, they

602
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.359
<v Speaker 2>made a public statement in indicating that AAVE was not

603
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.240
<v Speaker 2>a foreign language and dismissed the movement by the school,

604
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:40.599
<v Speaker 2>making a distinction between like a foreign language and like

605
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.759
<v Speaker 2>a dialect. I guess anyway. This was quickly followed by

606
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.440
<v Speaker 2>a group of linguists who issued their own public statement

607
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.720
<v Speaker 2>characterizing AAV as its own distinct dialect. Differing in many

608
00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:53.200
<v Speaker 2>important ways from the other sort of what you might

609
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:57.000
<v Speaker 2>call American standard English, that those they were otherwise sort

610
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:00.559
<v Speaker 2>of contacting and being exposed to, or maybe a better

611
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.960
<v Speaker 2>way is being said is having it forced down their

612
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:05.240
<v Speaker 2>throat when that wasn't the way that they communicated.

613
00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:08.880
<v Speaker 3>Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, So I want to remind everybody

614
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:10.880
<v Speaker 3>this is nineteen ninety six. So this is the year

615
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:14.119
<v Speaker 3>that Green Days Insomniac comes out, which is their best record.

616
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.440
<v Speaker 3>This is the year that Ska breaks. So now you've

617
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.480
<v Speaker 3>got the SKA movement starts right before like the Latin

618
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:25.000
<v Speaker 3>music explosion occurs too, right, So, like there's a lot

619
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.119
<v Speaker 3>of things happening in the United States. We haven't got

620
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.359
<v Speaker 3>quite gotten to the future yet. And this is nineteen

621
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:32.359
<v Speaker 3>ninety six, the Clinton administration.

622
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I think Jurassic Park two maybe came out

623
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:36.039
<v Speaker 2>this year.

624
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:39.079
<v Speaker 3>Jurassic Park two comes out, which is lovely in fight

625
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:42.359
<v Speaker 3>Glove or maybe that Fight Club. Yeah that might have been. Yeah,

626
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:43.960
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, it's hard to say. You know, the

627
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:46.279
<v Speaker 3>nineties were strange, But I bring this up because, like

628
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:48.400
<v Speaker 3>when we talk about the political climate at the time,

629
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.000
<v Speaker 3>this was the Clinton administration. This was not an arguably

630
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:57.559
<v Speaker 3>a conservative or Republican administration. This was a Democratic centrist administration.

631
00:31:57.720 --> 00:31:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

632
00:31:58.039 --> 00:32:00.599
<v Speaker 3>So with that information, I would like to introduce you

633
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.519
<v Speaker 3>to an ad so you can suck on that for

634
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:04.079
<v Speaker 3>a second, and then we're going to come back and

635
00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.640
<v Speaker 3>talk about this Richard w Riley, who was the Secretary

636
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:13.519
<v Speaker 3>of the DOE.

637
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:18.480
<v Speaker 2>All right, we're back. We're continuing through the history here

638
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:22.960
<v Speaker 2>and the resolution that a school board passed to recognize

639
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:27.880
<v Speaker 2>and install some infrastructure for using a AVE in the

640
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:32.400
<v Speaker 2>classroom and then that being rejected by a Democrat Secretary Riley.

641
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.839
<v Speaker 3>Yes, so I would like to share some quick background

642
00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:39.039
<v Speaker 3>on Secretary Richard w Riley because I think it's important

643
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:43.640
<v Speaker 3>to the players in this situation. Yeah, Richard Dick w Riley. So,

644
00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:46.559
<v Speaker 3>interestingly enough, Riley was a Democrat working underneath the Clinton

645
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.960
<v Speaker 3>administration at the time of this statement that he made

646
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:51.680
<v Speaker 3>that said that AAVE was not its own foreign language.

647
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:53.960
<v Speaker 3>He was actually named one of the top ten best

648
00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:58.079
<v Speaker 3>cabinet members in US history by Time magazine. Wow, and

649
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.319
<v Speaker 3>here's why. He Actually he had some accomplishments. So one

650
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.960
<v Speaker 3>thing that he did during his time as the Secretary

651
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:06.680
<v Speaker 3>of DOE He's made Internet and telephone pricing affordable for

652
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:10.680
<v Speaker 3>public schools so that people could access stuff at the schools,

653
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:12.720
<v Speaker 3>which I don't understand why it's not free, who knows,

654
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:13.880
<v Speaker 3>But like that's a different problem.

655
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:16.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I guess it's something better than nothing,

656
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:16.839
<v Speaker 2>but better.

657
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:18.279
<v Speaker 3>Than nothing, it's a move in the right direction. I

658
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:21.119
<v Speaker 3>think he developed a direct student loan program in federal

659
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:23.799
<v Speaker 3>student loans, which didn't exist before, So like that was

660
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:26.799
<v Speaker 3>also maybe not so bad, not great, but like a

661
00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:28.759
<v Speaker 3>move in the and it's kind of been bastardized since then.

662
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:32.640
<v Speaker 3>He advocated and actually allocated resources to providing additional training

663
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.079
<v Speaker 3>and support for teachers so they had better training for

664
00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:38.559
<v Speaker 3>their jobs, and he took steps to strengthen provisions in

665
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.160
<v Speaker 3>the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act or IDEA Act.

666
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.039
<v Speaker 3>So he did do a lot of things that were

667
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:49.480
<v Speaker 3>seemingly good for the education space. It just so happened

668
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:51.720
<v Speaker 3>that one image I found of him makes him look

669
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:54.480
<v Speaker 3>like mister Burns. And despite all of his accomplishments, his

670
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:57.720
<v Speaker 3>stance on AAV was clearly a misstep. So people can

671
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.599
<v Speaker 3>accomplish good things and still mess up. And I think

672
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:03.079
<v Speaker 3>that's a really important thing to note that, you know,

673
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:05.440
<v Speaker 3>while he did some things that seemed great. He did

674
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:08.440
<v Speaker 3>like it looked like mister Burns himself, which was horrifying

675
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:10.920
<v Speaker 3>to pull up his picture and he messed up here.

676
00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, people are complicated. Most people are not just

677
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:18.280
<v Speaker 2>one thing, and they often have a lot of things

678
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.199
<v Speaker 2>going on. Except Stephen Miller, to that man is pure evil.

679
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 3>Please tell me you saw the response from the Democratic

680
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:28.199
<v Speaker 3>Twitter response It called him the ugly. Their response from

681
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.800
<v Speaker 3>the official Twitter was shut up, you ugly.

682
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I did not, but I did see Hunter Biden's response

683
00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:38.719
<v Speaker 2>to something about this.

684
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:41.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, also great, also.

685
00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:46.039
<v Speaker 2>Great, yes, which have been very entertaining. Yes, yes, yes,

686
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 2>so all right. Well followed the January nineteen ninety seven

687
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.760
<v Speaker 2>was a series of political maneuvers where resolutions were passed

688
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:59.920
<v Speaker 2>stating AAVE was not distinct, stating aave distinctions were absurd

689
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:03.719
<v Speaker 2>a strong word, and then hearings occurred through March nineteen

690
00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:06.599
<v Speaker 2>ninety seven. Unfortunately, the resolution did not stand due to

691
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:08.800
<v Speaker 2>the intense national backlash.

692
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Ultimately, what the school landed on was that they

693
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.159
<v Speaker 3>were using it as supplemental material instead and not as

694
00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:20.039
<v Speaker 3>like formal structure and like optional supplemental material. So it

695
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:23.320
<v Speaker 3>became an optional thing for teachers, rather than being something

696
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:25.920
<v Speaker 3>that was going to be required. Now, now here's the thing.

697
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:30.840
<v Speaker 3>Movements like this and resolutions like this, they often are

698
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:34.199
<v Speaker 3>a single spark that ignites a flame. Right, So, while

699
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:37.079
<v Speaker 3>this original resolution didn't pass, it did lay groundwork for

700
00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:40.679
<v Speaker 3>a more academic study and scholarly work around AAV for

701
00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:43.840
<v Speaker 3>the next several decades. So there were actually several legal

702
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:46.760
<v Speaker 3>precedents that occurred, like not right after, but pretty soon

703
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 3>after that included AAVE specifically. One of them was the

704
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.039
<v Speaker 3>United States versus Arnold in two thousand and seven. Hey Arnold,

705
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:56.880
<v Speaker 3>Hey Arnold. I love that show. So they actually highlighted

706
00:35:56.880 --> 00:36:00.760
<v Speaker 3>the problem with dialectical misunderstanding. Specifically, there was like a

707
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.440
<v Speaker 3>criminal case, and as a result of this criminal case,

708
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:08.400
<v Speaker 3>the charges were dropped because the dialectical misunderstanding came down

709
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.480
<v Speaker 3>to AAVE grammar tense, which we're going to talk about

710
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:12.960
<v Speaker 3>and I think at this point in time, we're going

711
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:15.119
<v Speaker 3>to do a second part of this episode, yeah, because

712
00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:16.360
<v Speaker 3>I think it's going to take a little bit of

713
00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:19.920
<v Speaker 3>time to do that. But the grammar tense was misinterpreted

714
00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:22.559
<v Speaker 3>in the court of law, and as a result, there

715
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.679
<v Speaker 3>were some new precedents set around understanding and recognizing AAV

716
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:27.599
<v Speaker 3>as its own dialectical process.

717
00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.800
<v Speaker 2>Wow, uh huh, so that's two thousand and seven. In

718
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:34.320
<v Speaker 2>twenty sixteen, Rickford and King wrote extensively about the lack

719
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:39.239
<v Speaker 2>of translation support among jurors and stenographers, which ultimately led

720
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:44.320
<v Speaker 2>to unfair trials where AAVE was used. And so you

721
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.280
<v Speaker 2>can see, like when it starts getting into the devil's

722
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.800
<v Speaker 2>in the details thing here, it starts becoming clear why

723
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:53.400
<v Speaker 2>it's important to consider these things and not just dismiss

724
00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:56.679
<v Speaker 2>them as people were trying to do so. Trayvon Martin's

725
00:36:56.760 --> 00:37:00.719
<v Speaker 2>case was used as an example where Rachel Well I,

726
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:01.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't remember this name.

727
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:04.000
<v Speaker 3>Gene tells, I think gent Tel.

728
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Gentell's sorry, where Rachel john Tell's testimony was perceived as

729
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:13.480
<v Speaker 2>incomprehensible due to the jury's ignorance of a a VE dialect,

730
00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:18.960
<v Speaker 2>meaning that that testimony could not be really effectively used

731
00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:22.320
<v Speaker 2>and in part because of the fact that there was

732
00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:26.840
<v Speaker 2>so much misunderstanding and lack of education around that dialect

733
00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:30.039
<v Speaker 2>that did exist and was being treated as if it didn't.

734
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.360
<v Speaker 3>Yes, And the reason that it was incomprehensible was not

735
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.119
<v Speaker 3>because of what she was saying it was because there

736
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:41.440
<v Speaker 3>were no translators or supports or resources around AVE to

737
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:44.519
<v Speaker 3>make it comprehensible to the jury. So at the end

738
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.119
<v Speaker 3>of the day, it wasn't her fault that her testimony

739
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:50.400
<v Speaker 3>couldn't be understood. It was a system's issue. Whenever people

740
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:52.920
<v Speaker 3>say language barriers, it always drives me nuts. It's like

741
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:56.360
<v Speaker 3>the language barrier is on the service or the system.

742
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.280
<v Speaker 3>The language barrier is not on the person who's speaking

743
00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:01.840
<v Speaker 3>the language. Like in a situation, she's speaking what she

744
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:04.480
<v Speaker 3>was taught and what she's fluent in, and the system

745
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:08.880
<v Speaker 3>around her was not supportive in understanding and providing resources

746
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:12.440
<v Speaker 3>to ensure that it was translated or correctly shared. Right,

747
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.079
<v Speaker 3>And that actually goes into another study. In twenty nineteen,

748
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:17.159
<v Speaker 3>there was a study that found that forty percent of

749
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:22.039
<v Speaker 3>sentences transcribed by Philadelphia stenographers were inaccurate and specifically related

750
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:25.679
<v Speaker 3>to AAVE with ultimately an eighty three percent word accuracy.

751
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:27.840
<v Speaker 3>And you might be going, well, eighty three percent word

752
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:31.360
<v Speaker 3>accuracy sounds pretty decent. Stenographers are certified at ninety five

753
00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:34.400
<v Speaker 3>percent accuracy or greater. If they don't have ninety five

754
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.800
<v Speaker 3>percent accuracy or greater, then it is not a usable transcription.

755
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.960
<v Speaker 3>So at this point in time, it's just they've lost

756
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.400
<v Speaker 3>so much of the language in these transcriptions.

757
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Also, I make the jokes sometimes because I talk about

758
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:52.159
<v Speaker 2>how like eighty percent as like a criteria for mastery

759
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:55.599
<v Speaker 2>is just asinine to me. I'm like, try listening to

760
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:59.599
<v Speaker 2>or understanding language that is eighty three percent accurate. I

761
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:04.239
<v Speaker 2>you heard this podcast with seventeen percent of the words

762
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:07.719
<v Speaker 2>like just garbled or mashed or replaced with something else, Like,

763
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:10.960
<v Speaker 2>it would be incomprehensible. You wouldn't be able to understand

764
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.760
<v Speaker 2>a huge amount of what was being said. Like, that

765
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.559
<v Speaker 2>level of accuracy is just it is ineffective for communication.

766
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:21.760
<v Speaker 2>So if they're transcribing court testimony in these documents in

767
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:25.119
<v Speaker 2>this way with that level of accuracy, like it's going

768
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:28.760
<v Speaker 2>to be so inaccurate it will not be able to

769
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.079
<v Speaker 2>be understood by looking at historical records.

770
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:35.360
<v Speaker 3>Right, and ultimately, if it's not understood, it can't be

771
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:37.760
<v Speaker 3>reviewed again in the event of an appeal or a

772
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.920
<v Speaker 3>retrial or in the case of like setting a precedent

773
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.840
<v Speaker 3>for future legal cases. Like if you can't understand what

774
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:48.360
<v Speaker 3>is being discussed or transcribed in the court, it's lost

775
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:53.840
<v Speaker 3>and again it speaks to an unbalanced system where the

776
00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:58.280
<v Speaker 3>legal system benefits certain groups of people and it unfairly

777
00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:02.440
<v Speaker 3>maligns and sets people back who don't belong to that demographic.

778
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:04.760
<v Speaker 3>And so that's just another example of how how our

779
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:06.440
<v Speaker 3>legal system screws people over.

780
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:10.239
<v Speaker 2>It certainly raises some concerns about the fairness of the

781
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:13.920
<v Speaker 2>trial that they received, too, if like the if the testimonies,

782
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.519
<v Speaker 2>if what was described and what happened what transpired in

783
00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:20.280
<v Speaker 2>that courtroom was not accurately captured, like, was it also

784
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:24.400
<v Speaker 2>inaccurately understood at the time that the communication took place, right,

785
00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:26.360
<v Speaker 2>And we've already seen a couple of examples where that

786
00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:29.199
<v Speaker 2>definitely happened, which means there probably are a lot more

787
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:33.519
<v Speaker 2>like we're seeing some like that's just barely scratching the.

788
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:36.079
<v Speaker 3>Surface one percent.

789
00:40:36.679 --> 00:40:38.559
<v Speaker 2>All right, we have a ton of things to talk about,

790
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:44.199
<v Speaker 2>including understanding the various characteristics of AAVE and how that works.

791
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.440
<v Speaker 2>So we are going to turn this into a two parter.

792
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:50.039
<v Speaker 2>We thought that that was a possibility, but I didn't

793
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:51.679
<v Speaker 2>know for sure that's that's where we would be. But

794
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:54.440
<v Speaker 2>it's a it's great. So this will be a part

795
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:57.079
<v Speaker 2>one next time. We'll come back with a part two.

796
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.159
<v Speaker 2>We'll jump into, as we said, some of the characteristic features,

797
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:03.280
<v Speaker 2>looking at this from sort of a scientific view and

798
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:05.960
<v Speaker 2>unpacking it and then getting into, of course, some interesting

799
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:09.159
<v Speaker 2>tidbits if you will, tid boints, as we sometimes like

800
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:10.960
<v Speaker 2>to call them. Yes, yes, yes, So thank you for

801
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:12.800
<v Speaker 2>joining us for this one. Please come back for part

802
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.159
<v Speaker 2>two so you can hear the things that you might

803
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.800
<v Speaker 2>have been wondering this whole time, Like it is like

804
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:19.920
<v Speaker 2>what so we've been talking about Aeve. What is that like?

805
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:22.719
<v Speaker 2>We'll tell you next time, so come back around in

806
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:24.920
<v Speaker 2>the meantime. If you would like to support us, you

807
00:41:24.920 --> 00:41:27.239
<v Speaker 2>can join us on Patreon, leave us a rating and review,

808
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 2>like subscribe, or tell a friend. All of those things

809
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:32.199
<v Speaker 2>really help us out, and we do appreciate anything that

810
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:34.360
<v Speaker 2>you are willing and able to do to help us

811
00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:37.159
<v Speaker 2>be a podcast, reach a nice audience, get ad revenue,

812
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.039
<v Speaker 2>and just generally communicate with people. Because we do this

813
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.079
<v Speaker 2>because we're trying to like be educational. We're trying to

814
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 2>provide a free service out there to people to just

815
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, do some some teaching things. People who have

816
00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:50.880
<v Speaker 2>taken the leap and really helped us do this are

817
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:54.039
<v Speaker 2>our patrons. They receive some bonus content early episodes, add

818
00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:56.880
<v Speaker 2>free episodes, and we also at the end of each

819
00:41:56.920 --> 00:41:59.159
<v Speaker 2>of our full lengths, we'll shout them out for just

820
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:01.840
<v Speaker 2>being wonderful people and helping us do our things. So

821
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:05.599
<v Speaker 2>a giant shout out thank you and welcome to not welcome,

822
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:09.320
<v Speaker 2>but just thank you to Mike, em Omegan, Mike t, Justin,

823
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.840
<v Speaker 2>Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie. Thank you

824
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:16.320
<v Speaker 2>all for continuing to help us do our thing.

825
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:18.239
<v Speaker 3>Y'all are lovely, all right.

826
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:21.760
<v Speaker 2>We actually do like to end our discussions with some recommendations.

827
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:23.719
<v Speaker 2>If you have not been with us before, that might

828
00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:25.280
<v Speaker 2>come up as a surprise that we're going to do

829
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:27.559
<v Speaker 2>the credits, and then we recommend some things that are

830
00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:29.519
<v Speaker 2>just fun, but things that have brought us joy recently,

831
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:31.960
<v Speaker 2>so stick around through those. But I'd like to tell

832
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.679
<v Speaker 2>you first that I cannot do this without the help

833
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:37.239
<v Speaker 2>of my team writing and fact checking from Shane and myself.

834
00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for recording with me today, Shane, and for

835
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:40.840
<v Speaker 2>your fantastic work on these notes.

836
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:43.880
<v Speaker 3>Hey, thank you. I really tried hard on this one.

837
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:45.519
<v Speaker 3>I mean not that I don't try hard at all

838
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:46.559
<v Speaker 3>of them, but I try.

839
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:51.199
<v Speaker 2>To know this one and uh oh yeah. Our social

840
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.320
<v Speaker 2>media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person who stitches

841
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:57.239
<v Speaker 2>all of this together, including long pauses where I'm thinking

842
00:42:57.320 --> 00:43:00.199
<v Speaker 2>very hard but not saying anything that does not end

843
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:03.519
<v Speaker 2>up in the final episode. Luckily for you, it is

844
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:09.079
<v Speaker 2>justin our God Emperor producer extraordinary wonder kind, yes, who

845
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:10.000
<v Speaker 2>is so good at his job.

846
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:14.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he's just a gem.

847
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:15.079
<v Speaker 2>All right. If you'd like to tell us your thoughts

848
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:17.679
<v Speaker 2>on aav you can write to us directly by emailing

849
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.559
<v Speaker 2>us at info at WWDWWD podcast, and on the social

850
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:24.599
<v Speaker 2>media platforms, and we do look forward to hearing from you.

851
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:28.199
<v Speaker 2>I think with that we're ready to transition to some recommendations.

852
00:43:28.280 --> 00:43:29.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

853
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Recommendations.

854
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:48.280
<v Speaker 3>So I'm gonna recommend a book. It's a short book.

855
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:50.280
<v Speaker 3>It's a collection of short stories. So if you do

856
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:55.079
<v Speaker 3>not like short stories, then grow up. Short stories are fun. No,

857
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:57.519
<v Speaker 3>You're allowed to like what you like. So this is

858
00:43:57.519 --> 00:44:00.199
<v Speaker 3>an author I've always really enjoyed because I think he

859
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.280
<v Speaker 3>does a really great play. He's a great satirical author.

860
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:06.719
<v Speaker 3>His name is David Saidaris and the book I'm recommending

861
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.840
<v Speaker 3>is Holidays on ice. Yes it is June. Yes, these

862
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:12.719
<v Speaker 3>stories are about Christmas. And yes, I've had this book

863
00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:15.440
<v Speaker 3>for like twenty years and just finally read it. So

864
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:17.920
<v Speaker 3>he does these short stories, and he's known for being

865
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:22.360
<v Speaker 3>i mean, very cutting, but very very satirical. One of

866
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:24.679
<v Speaker 3>the stories I was telling Abraham before the show was

867
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:27.559
<v Speaker 3>about two neighbors who were trying to like, you know,

868
00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:30.559
<v Speaker 3>outdo each other giving on Christmas, to the point where

869
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:32.880
<v Speaker 3>they end up giving away their kids and their lungs

870
00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:35.480
<v Speaker 3>and like their scalps and stuff like just very ridiculous

871
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.239
<v Speaker 3>and over the top. He tells a story about how

872
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:40.760
<v Speaker 3>he worked as a Christmas elf during Christmas at Macy's

873
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:43.239
<v Speaker 3>in New York and how ridiculous that was. And some

874
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.199
<v Speaker 3>of the stories, and all of his stories are very

875
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:51.239
<v Speaker 3>silly and very I feel like they have a There's

876
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:52.599
<v Speaker 3>some of it that's like right, you know, there's a

877
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:54.400
<v Speaker 3>sense of cynicism that goes along with some of them.

878
00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:56.760
<v Speaker 3>But when he writes about his family, there's always like

879
00:44:56.800 --> 00:45:00.760
<v Speaker 3>this like adoration that goes along with the weirdness that

880
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:03.079
<v Speaker 3>is his family. There's one there's one story in here

881
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:05.960
<v Speaker 3>called Dinah, the Christmas whore, and it's about how her

882
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:09.280
<v Speaker 3>his sister, his sister has to go pick up her

883
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:13.360
<v Speaker 3>friend from work who is a sex worker, and how

884
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:15.480
<v Speaker 3>they go pick her up and like get her out

885
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:18.039
<v Speaker 3>of this abusive situation, and then the family just has

886
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:20.159
<v Speaker 3>like all these questions about what it means to be

887
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:22.880
<v Speaker 3>a sex worker, and how the whole family comes together

888
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:26.679
<v Speaker 3>and just has the best time with her. So like

889
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:28.679
<v Speaker 3>it's it's one of those things where it's like they're

890
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:30.800
<v Speaker 3>all kind of unified in their weirdness, which is a

891
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:33.400
<v Speaker 3>lot of fun. And it just I don't know, I

892
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:36.719
<v Speaker 3>just really enjoy David Sedara's stories, and I feel like

893
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:39.360
<v Speaker 3>if you have a sense of humor and you have

894
00:45:39.400 --> 00:45:41.440
<v Speaker 3>strange families, then I think you'll appreciate it.

895
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:44.559
<v Speaker 2>The name caught me off guard, but the name of

896
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:49.880
<v Speaker 2>that short story, yeah yeah, yeah, uh huh yep. So cool.

897
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.480
<v Speaker 2>All right, very intrigued. I do enjoy me some short stories,

898
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:56.400
<v Speaker 2>and I would be curious to check this one out.

899
00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:00.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm recommending an album that actually came out maybe like

900
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.679
<v Speaker 2>seven or eight months ago. I forget when it's been

901
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:05.840
<v Speaker 2>out for less than a year. But this is Hailey Williams,

902
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:06.840
<v Speaker 2>one of her solo albums.

903
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:06.960
<v Speaker 3>Now.

904
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:10.119
<v Speaker 2>I really like Paramore and generally they're my preference, but

905
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:13.360
<v Speaker 2>Hailey Williams put out this album called Ego Death at

906
00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:17.360
<v Speaker 2>a Bachelorette Party, and man, this album is so good.

907
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:19.039
<v Speaker 3>It's so good.

908
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:21.480
<v Speaker 2>I have just been listening to it like over and

909
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:25.760
<v Speaker 2>over and over again. It is fantastic. So and the

910
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:28.039
<v Speaker 2>sort of the title track on here has a music

911
00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:32.079
<v Speaker 2>video that's very weird and fun and is an enjoyable

912
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:34.800
<v Speaker 2>tune as well. So I would say most of the

913
00:46:34.840 --> 00:46:37.440
<v Speaker 2>tracks on this album I really really really like, and

914
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:39.599
<v Speaker 2>there's like five or six that is always have in

915
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:43.320
<v Speaker 2>my head these days. But yeah, so strong recommend is

916
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:46.639
<v Speaker 2>Hailey Williams Ego Death at a Bachelorette Party. Right now.

917
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:49.119
<v Speaker 2>The song I've been listening to the most is called

918
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:52.119
<v Speaker 2>Love Me Different. My other favorite on here is called

919
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Whim Disappearing Man is really good. Ego Death at a

920
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Bachelorette Party is really good. There's just great tracks on here,

921
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:00.480
<v Speaker 2>so anyway, go check that one out. It is it's

922
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:03.159
<v Speaker 2>long in the sense that I think there's like eighteen tracks,

923
00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:05.920
<v Speaker 2>but all of them are like three minutes, so it's

924
00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:08.199
<v Speaker 2>not Yeah, they're not super long songs. For the most

925
00:47:08.199 --> 00:47:09.000
<v Speaker 2>part well, and.

926
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:12.760
<v Speaker 3>She does an excellent cover, a shockingly great cover of

927
00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:14.760
<v Speaker 3>Discovery Channel by Bloodhound Game.

928
00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:19.000
<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's right, Yeah, she totally does. And it's

929
00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:22.679
<v Speaker 2>like it makes the Dare I say it makes the

930
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:23.719
<v Speaker 2>original song better?

931
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

932
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:28.400
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, it's very strange.

933
00:47:28.559 --> 00:47:30.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I probably wouldn't choose that song. But then you

934
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:32.320
<v Speaker 2>hear her singing, You're like, oh, this is this is

935
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:33.800
<v Speaker 2>this is nice? Nice?

936
00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:36.280
<v Speaker 3>I wait I heard it and I went, I know

937
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.039
<v Speaker 3>this song? Why do I know this song? And then

938
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:39.840
<v Speaker 3>it got to the chorus and I went, oh.

939
00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:42.159
<v Speaker 2>No, middle school, that's yeah, middle school.

940
00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:45.320
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely. It blew my mind. I was like, this is

941
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:47.960
<v Speaker 3>this is absurd? But she does a great job with it.

942
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:48.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah it's fun.

943
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, she's fantastic. All right. So that is Shane's recommendation.

944
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:56.480
<v Speaker 2>David Sidaris a book of short stories called Holidays on Ice,

945
00:47:56.519 --> 00:47:59.280
<v Speaker 2>and then Hayley Williams solo album Ego Death at a

946
00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:02.599
<v Speaker 2>Bachelorette Party. Anyway, I think that's what I would say

947
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:04.679
<v Speaker 2>about those things. Anything you'd like to add that I

948
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:06.800
<v Speaker 2>forgot before we say our goodbyes.

949
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:08.159
<v Speaker 3>Nope, I think that covers it. Cool.

950
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Thank you all for listening. Check us out next week

951
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:11.159
<v Speaker 2>for the part two of this.

952
00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:13.039
<v Speaker 3>But this is Abraham and this is Shane.

953
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:13.519
<v Speaker 2>We're out.

954
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:16.639
<v Speaker 3>See yup, you've been listening to Why We Do What

955
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:17.000
<v Speaker 3>We Do.

956
00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:20.199
<v Speaker 1>You can learn more about this and other episodes by

957
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:24.280
<v Speaker 1>going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com.

958
00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:42.760
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.