Speaker 1: You're listening to why we do what we do? Welcome
Speaker 1: to why we do what we do?
Speaker 2: I am your attempting to be culturally sensitive Host Abraham.
Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm your I remember when this happened in
Speaker 3: the nineties, Host Shane.
Speaker 2: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
Speaker 2: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
Speaker 2: talk about the ways that we communicate with one another
Speaker 2: and the history of that and what it all means
Speaker 2: and where it sometimes was taken advantage of for various
Speaker 2: political motivations. But if you're joining us for the first time,
Speaker 2: then welcome. I hope that you enjoy what you hear
Speaker 2: in this discussion. And if you're a returning person, then
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Speaker 2: you keep coming back to listen to more stuff. Either way,
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Speaker 2: us on Patreon. I'll talk more about those things at
Speaker 2: the end of this discussion. But you're here, which is great,
Speaker 2: And it is June seventeenth, so Happy Bunker Hill Day.
Speaker 3: Sure, and this is I think our holiday Eat all
Speaker 3: your Veggies Day?
Speaker 2: Definitely.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It is Global garbage Man Day garbage person or is
Speaker 2: there a man who is like he is gar he
Speaker 2: is the garbage man, like Sanna the President of the
Speaker 2: United States.
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, he is a garbage man.
Speaker 2: He is a garbage man. Yeah, yeah, made of garbage,
Speaker 2: spews garbage, lives in garbage.
Speaker 3: Jesus. But is it not nice to call him a
Speaker 3: garbage man because that's disparaging to people who actually work
Speaker 3: in like garbage reclamation work.
Speaker 2: Is that called good point sanitation sanitation? Yeah, they're much better. Well,
Speaker 2: so that's the thing is we would call them sanitation workers,
Speaker 2: I think, and they are better people than the garbage man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. It is lgbt Q I A
Speaker 3: plus Equal Pay Awareness Day.
Speaker 2: Oh it is Pride month, isn't it?
Speaker 3: Happy Pride months?
Speaker 2: Folks. Yeah, I don't think we mentioned this. Sorry, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's great, that's very important. Good. Yes, National Apple
Speaker 2: Strudel Day.
Speaker 3: I love a good strudle carrying on, It's Stuart's Rootier Day,
Speaker 3: Love root Beer.
Speaker 2: Two Stuart's plu. Yeah, it is World Croc Day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if that's the shoe or the animal,
Speaker 3: but I celebrate the animal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure we should the shoes like needs
Speaker 2: a holiday, but okay, I mean I like their shoes.
Speaker 3: I gotta.
Speaker 2: They do make a good shoes.
Speaker 3: I've never worn one, so I'm am I missing out.
Speaker 2: They legit are good shoes. I mean, it's like no
Speaker 2: that they are. They are good shoes.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, all right, all right. It's World Day
Speaker 3: to Combat Desertificate, desert, desertification, desert, DESERTI fish cake and drought.
Speaker 2: It's one of those. It's one of those things. I mean,
Speaker 2: deserts are important ecosystems too. I mean I don't know
Speaker 2: that we should be trying to create them in places
Speaker 2: make more Yeah yeah, not in places that like a
Speaker 2: aren't already in that transition phase. But don't need to
Speaker 2: demonize deserts either. Anyway, moving on, it is Animal Rights
Speaker 2: Awareness Week. I love that there's so many of these.
Speaker 3: That's really ah, yeah, especially because we love animals. It's
Speaker 3: Islamic New Year.
Speaker 2: It is Learning Disabilities Week that's very important to us.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's yes. It's also National Clay Week, is
Speaker 3: National flag week. Interesting, that's National Hermit Week.
Speaker 2: And it's National Water Safety Week. And I think we're
Speaker 2: also between this episode and the next one. I think
Speaker 2: maybe the summer equinox happens. I'm not totally sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of things happening right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're getting right up to the longest day of
Speaker 2: the year. At this point, it's like it's in here somewhere.
Speaker 3: Even though in the United States every day feels like
Speaker 3: the longest day, given the current circumstances.
Speaker 2: It it really does. Every day was longer than the
Speaker 2: last one. Yes, yes, just is what it is. Okay, anyway,
Speaker 2: you are here, Thank you for joining us. This episode
Speaker 2: is going to attempt to discuss something called aave, which
Speaker 2: is an African American vernacular English, but there is a deep,
Speaker 2: rich history related to language development and black culture and
Speaker 2: so ultimately understand that this episode is going to be
Speaker 2: a tip of the Iceberg discussion. Like we're not going
Speaker 2: to cover as much as there is to cover, because
Speaker 2: there is a lot to cover, but we do want
Speaker 2: to try and get into it somewhat, and hopefully an
Speaker 2: outcome of this is we have peaked your curiosity enough
Speaker 2: that you go learn more about it because there are
Speaker 2: some great resources. Go check them out. There's a lot
Speaker 2: to talk about, because AAVE is a complex linguistic discussion
Speaker 2: and there is a long history related to how it
Speaker 2: has developed. So go seek those things out if you
Speaker 2: are curious about it, because we've given you enough of
Speaker 2: an appetite that you want to go learn more. I
Speaker 2: think there's a really cool history here to know.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely so. In this episode, we are going to
Speaker 3: learn what mister Burns, Nina Simone, Oakland, California, asl and
Speaker 3: Sligh all have in common.
Speaker 2: Perfect, perfect, Yeah, that's what I'm here for.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, of course, the weird relational frames that
Speaker 3: we create as a result of this. Now, okay, there's
Speaker 3: a couple things I want to kind of unpack before
Speaker 3: we get really into the weeds in this, and I
Speaker 3: think it's really important for us to disclose at the
Speaker 3: end of the day. I mean, I'm going to disclose
Speaker 3: for myself at least I am a white man and
Speaker 3: we are speaking about this content, and so we encourage
Speaker 3: you if you are somebody who knows more about this,
Speaker 3: or has you know a particular history with this, or
Speaker 3: want to share stories about this particular topic. We would
Speaker 3: love to hear from you, because we are sharing this
Speaker 3: from and I we really tried to attempt to come
Speaker 3: at this from a very like academic, scholarly objective standpoint,
Speaker 3: but again, I'm sure I'm missing some stuff, and my
Speaker 3: perspective is also going to color this a little bit
Speaker 3: just by the very nature of my own identity. So
Speaker 3: I think it's important to kind of put that up
Speaker 3: front so that there are no surprises or shocks or
Speaker 3: anything like that. But hopefully we cover this the way
Speaker 3: that we want to cover this and at least open
Speaker 3: the doors for like Abraham said, some information information seeking
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 2: At least I also am a white man, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't have I don't have the history, the culture,
Speaker 2: the experience to be talking about this as if I
Speaker 2: was ever immersed in a situation where I could speak
Speaker 2: to this from my own perspective. And as you said,
Speaker 2: like I think we have an audience demographic that largely
Speaker 2: reflects our own demographic, and that's understandable, and having another
Speaker 2: voice helped to share what is out there to learn
Speaker 2: about other cultures feels like a good gateway for you
Speaker 2: to find the creators who do belong to those cultures
Speaker 2: who have a lot more to say about this, to
Speaker 2: speak from their own personal experiences, So don't take us
Speaker 2: as an authority. We are here to hopefully to just
Speaker 2: be a vessel of communication to help get more information
Speaker 2: out there so that people can go learn from the
Speaker 2: people who really sort of lived this history and have
Speaker 2: a lot to say about it. So, yes, I think
Speaker 2: that's all very important, and I'm sure that you get
Speaker 2: into this, but I want to let people know when
Speaker 2: you hear us say something like African American vernacular English
Speaker 2: in the nineties, if you're around at that time, you
Speaker 2: probably heard this called something else, which was that it
Speaker 2: was called ebonics. There were probably other names for it,
Speaker 2: but there was a lot of discussion happening about this
Speaker 2: at the time. I think arguably there still has been
Speaker 2: some versions of this that have continued to play out.
Speaker 2: There probably was long before that, but that was I
Speaker 2: think the time when that sort of name and orientation
Speaker 2: to it in the zeitgeist was common and sort of
Speaker 2: a big deal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we are going to talk about that because the
Speaker 3: history of that, the word of bonics is really interesting.
Speaker 3: But just so just to kind of lay it out there,
Speaker 3: that is not the term that's used today to describe
Speaker 3: it from an academic Scholl always standpoint like a more
Speaker 3: technical space. And there's reasons why not just because it
Speaker 3: has like some connotations, but because it doesn't capture everything
Speaker 3: about AaB. Right, So just to kind of like spoil
Speaker 3: us a little bit, the big catalyst event that we
Speaker 3: are probably aware of happened in nineteen ninety six, ninety six,
Speaker 3: ninety seven, like right at the end of ninety six
Speaker 3: early ninety seven, when people were really starting to talk
Speaker 3: about this. Do you remember a lot about when this happened,
Speaker 3: like when people were really freaking out about this, and
Speaker 3: like the term of bonics and stuff like that started
Speaker 3: to show up in the zeitgeist.
Speaker 2: Kind of yes, I mean I definitely remember hearing it
Speaker 2: discussed a bit, but I don't I don't remember like
Speaker 2: what events there were specifically around it. I think it
Speaker 2: was just a little more peripheral to what I was
Speaker 2: sort of hearing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I was thinking about this as I was
Speaker 3: writing the notes, and I just because learning histories I
Speaker 3: think are interesting. I remember when this came up, and
Speaker 3: I think I remember this being a bigger deal to
Speaker 3: me in my world because I went to a predominantly
Speaker 3: black middle school, and so there was a lot of
Speaker 3: discussion around the terminology and some of the statements and
Speaker 3: the phrases that were used. There were I mean large
Speaker 3: groups of I say large groups. So we didn't have
Speaker 3: a lot of a lot of white kids that went
Speaker 3: to our school, but the white kids that were there
Speaker 3: were pretty flippant about some of the phrases and the
Speaker 3: terms and stuff. And so they would start to kind
Speaker 3: of like take those terms and we're going to talk
Speaker 3: about kind of like what happens when you know, a
Speaker 3: group of people who don't belong to a particular culture
Speaker 3: used terms that don't belong to their culture and then
Speaker 3: kind of appropriate it and whatnot. And that was happening
Speaker 3: a lot. What seemed to be occurring at my school
Speaker 3: was there was a lot of mockery around this, or
Speaker 3: a lot of dismissiveness around this from like the white
Speaker 3: population towards the black student body. I remember that being
Speaker 3: very present in my middle school days because those three
Speaker 3: years I went to a middle school that was, like
Speaker 3: in my town, was the predominantly black middle school. It
Speaker 3: just seemed like it was really in our faces for
Speaker 3: many years as a result of this particular, like the
Speaker 3: event that we're gonna talk about. In the nineties, it
Speaker 3: just seemed like it was like right there in front
Speaker 3: of us the entire time.
Speaker 2: Nineties ads were always in your face too.
Speaker 3: Oh god, some of them were good, though, Crossfire was
Speaker 3: pretty pretty rad.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back. We've been setting up sort of
Speaker 2: the preamble here because we want to just lay out
Speaker 2: the history. I think we want to where we have
Speaker 2: personal connection to this, which is not a ton because
Speaker 2: we didn't really grow up in the culture there were,
Speaker 2: you know, being able to reflect that in our discussion,
Speaker 2: but also like just sort of where we're gonna start
Speaker 2: by laying out a lot of the definitions, the descriptions,
Speaker 2: and then some history here.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay, so I think that there is a lot
Speaker 3: to unpack, and I think the one thing I want
Speaker 3: to start with is talking about and laying some groundwork
Speaker 3: around the linguistic part of this. So to ensure that
Speaker 3: we've got our terms to find. I love good definitions.
Speaker 3: There are three terms that are used that are often
Speaker 3: used when when people are talking about studying AAVE, and
Speaker 3: that's dialect, ethn elect and socio elect Okay, So dialect
Speaker 3: is specifically a regional variety of language distinguished by features
Speaker 3: of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and
Speaker 3: constutent together with them a single language. So dialects often
Speaker 3: refer to like variations of a particular language, not not
Speaker 3: as simple as like accents. Accents and dialects are a
Speaker 3: little bit different, like an accent is like the way
Speaker 3: that something is nunciated. But like, for example, Spanish dialects
Speaker 3: across South America are very different, like when you talk
Speaker 3: about Puerto Rican, South America and Central America, I should say,
Speaker 3: because you've got Mexican Spanish that has a little bit
Speaker 3: of a different feel, different language, different words, different meanings
Speaker 3: versus like Chilean or Argentinian. Like, there are differences there,
Speaker 3: and that's what we talk about with dialect. Dialect is
Speaker 3: not not a difference between somebody from Boston versus somebody
Speaker 3: from from South Florida talking you know and having a
Speaker 3: different twang. That's accent, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Dialect is a is like very much so a difference
Speaker 3: in the language.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, almost like its own standalone version of that language. Yes,
Speaker 2: both a lot of cognates too, Yeah. Ethnelect is a
Speaker 2: language variety specific to a particular ethnic or cultural group.
Speaker 2: And so then you're talking about sort of similar to
Speaker 2: a dialect, I guess in a sense, is a way
Speaker 2: that a language sort of becomes incorporated into an ethnic group.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this totally counts, but like I
Speaker 2: visited Jamaica once and there they they speak English because
Speaker 2: of colonization, but it has sort of turned into it's
Speaker 2: there's like this own version of English there that is
Speaker 2: unique to the Jamaican people that I wonder if that
Speaker 2: qualifies as an ethnolect. Yeah, because they have a lot
Speaker 2: of their own words and like ways of saying things
Speaker 2: that if you don't know what like the history behind those,
Speaker 2: if you don't know that culture, it doesn't you wouldn't
Speaker 2: be able to understand what they were saying someone who's
Speaker 2: just sort of speaking maybe American English or you know,
Speaker 2: probably like England English.
Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, I think I think that that aligns because
Speaker 3: I think that the ethnic elect part of that is
Speaker 3: like Black Caribbean is part of that. Like, so you're
Speaker 3: going to have those influences across many of the islands
Speaker 3: and whatnot. Okay, And there's a reason why this is important,
Speaker 3: and we're going to get to that in a second. Okay, So,
Speaker 3: like we're not just saying like, oh, this language belongs
Speaker 3: to groups. There's also soci elect and social elect is
Speaker 3: a specific dialect, jargon or slang used by a particular
Speaker 3: social group, So that refers to class systems and whatnot.
Speaker 3: So at this point in time, we've got dialect, which
Speaker 3: is the language itself that's kind of derived from from
Speaker 3: all these different things. Ethn elect is language to a
Speaker 3: particular ethnic group, and socio elect is language related to
Speaker 3: a particular social group. Those three things always come up
Speaker 3: when we talk about AAVE, and there's a reason why.
Speaker 2: This sort of a mid Atlantic accent. It feels like
Speaker 2: the select Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, all right. So,
Speaker 2: African American Vernacular English or AAVE is a dialect of
Speaker 2: American English, also sometimes known as Black English Vernacular or
Speaker 2: controversially at bon X. Oh this actually, this reminds me
Speaker 2: of the thing I wanted to say earlier. Okay, there
Speaker 2: you go, yes, which is one of the things we
Speaker 2: have brought up multiple times when we talk about being
Speaker 2: sort of politically correct in this show, is it's like
Speaker 2: it's not always just like there's an element of it
Speaker 2: that's like, don't be addic to other humans, and that
Speaker 2: is a relevant consideration. But a lot of the times
Speaker 2: when we're pointing out like why a term is being
Speaker 2: changed or abandoned is because it's inaccurate, right, it doesn't
Speaker 2: include things, or it includes too many things or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, it's just is not an accurate description. So
Speaker 2: it's like it is in a f effective communication to
Speaker 2: describe it this way. And that's why like slurs are
Speaker 2: often like it's not just that it's like rude and inappropriate,
Speaker 2: it's also like not an accurate way, and it could
Speaker 2: be misleading if you don't actually know the real information.
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's another reason like that we get on
Speaker 2: that is that like let's not be dicks to each
Speaker 2: other and let's be accurate in our communication if we can. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So anyway, we were talking about here. Controversially it was
Speaker 2: also called a bonics and then is Black English vernacular,
Speaker 2: but we're sort of calling it African American vernacular English
Speaker 2: for the purposes of this discussion.
Speaker 3: Right, So, like we mentioned, the term a bonics is
Speaker 3: not the current use we use aave. There are lots
Speaker 3: of reasons why ultimately that precise language is what matters.
Speaker 3: And I will say, like, historically a bonics was and
Speaker 3: we're going to talk about the history of the term
Speaker 3: a bonics and where it comes from. It comes from
Speaker 3: a black psychologist and linguistics professor, so like it was
Speaker 3: coined by members of the group. But it just is
Speaker 3: not complete as we know it today. It's just not complete.
Speaker 3: So what makes AAVE unique is that it is the
Speaker 3: result of an intersection of varying demographics. Members of the
Speaker 3: black community, members of the working class community, and the
Speaker 3: middle class community in America. So you've got three different
Speaker 3: identities there, Black, working class slash middle class and Americans.
Speaker 3: Those three intersections together have created the kind of perfect
Speaker 3: conditions in which AAVE starts to emerge and exist. And
Speaker 3: there's a history with that. But that's why it's called
Speaker 3: a dialect is because it does pertain to a specific
Speaker 3: ethnographic and sociographic group of people.
Speaker 2: Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, So
Speaker 2: one important point to note at the top of this
Speaker 2: discussion is that AAV is not slang. I think you
Speaker 2: might hear this and think that, oh it's slang. It's
Speaker 2: like altered version of language or something where it's they're
Speaker 2: just sort of speaking colloquially or off the cuff, but
Speaker 2: rather it actually has unique linguistic properties related to grammar
Speaker 2: and structure. We'll cover that in a bit, but I
Speaker 2: think people might hear this and think, oh, we're just
Speaker 2: talking about sling, but that's actually not what it is.
Speaker 2: It is its own sort of evolved vocabulary.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And another important note here is that AAV is
Speaker 3: not a monolithic dialect for everyone who is black. I
Speaker 3: can't believe that we have to say this. It's exhausting
Speaker 3: to say, I'm sure, and I'm sure it's exhausting for
Speaker 3: members of the community to say as well, and to
Speaker 3: hear sometimes and to hear sometimes. But I think it's
Speaker 3: really important to note that it's not a monolithic dialect.
Speaker 3: Just because somebody is black does not mean that they
Speaker 3: are using AAVE. It's like saying that, like, everyone who's
Speaker 3: white speaks with a Southern accent, like I would encourage
Speaker 3: you all to use your noggins, folks, like. And again,
Speaker 3: accent is not not necessarily the same thing as dialect.
Speaker 3: But it is really important to note that AAVE is
Speaker 3: not at all like representative of every single person who
Speaker 3: is black. That shouldn't be a stretch to think about.
Speaker 3: But people really have a hard time with that. They
Speaker 3: equate those things and it's that's not a logical equation.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, just understanding those important things, or as users
Speaker 2: sort of saying, and like, assuming that everyone who's white
Speaker 2: speaks of the mid Atlantic accent, it looks like we would.
Speaker 2: You might look at us and expect those sounds to
Speaker 2: come out of our face. But yeah, not a monolith.
Speaker 3: Nope.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we love history here, so we're gonna
Speaker 2: get into the history. So, as of this episode, the
Speaker 2: origins of AAVE are closely linked to British colonization of
Speaker 2: the United States and American slavery. Surprise, surprise. Sure, it
Speaker 2: is believed to have begun in Virginia and Maryland, quickly
Speaker 2: moving to the Carolinas and Georgia during this time.
Speaker 3: However, it is largely debated. What has generally agreed upon
Speaker 3: is that the dialect is largely shaped by varying African
Speaker 3: languages and Creole variations. So this mixed with American English
Speaker 3: aided in the development of AAVE. So you've got groups
Speaker 3: of people who come to the United States, forced to
Speaker 3: come to United States with their own languages that are
Speaker 3: learning English and learning the like as a result of
Speaker 3: being forced into these spaces. You've got Creole, You've got
Speaker 3: many languages coming in from Caribbean islands. You've got all
Speaker 3: these different kinds of You've got French influence and English influence,
Speaker 3: which you're going to talk about later. All of those
Speaker 3: things are coming together to create kind of this like
Speaker 3: unique soup or stew that is ave. And you can
Speaker 3: kind of see that a little bit, which is really
Speaker 3: really fascinating. But I think it's when it comes to
Speaker 3: language and we talk about language in general, like we
Speaker 3: talked about in the American accent and the English accent,
Speaker 3: there are so many sources of information that come together
Speaker 3: that create this kind of like unique thing that happens,
Speaker 3: which is the way that people talk. Another example I
Speaker 3: kind of really think about too, is like how the
Speaker 3: Internet has shaped a lot of our language, and like
Speaker 3: that unique culture and that unique space, that unique variable,
Speaker 3: I should say, yeah, has really influenced the way that
Speaker 3: we talk to one another and how we communicate in
Speaker 3: writing and stuff like that. It's really I think valuable
Speaker 3: to look at language and look at where all those
Speaker 3: unique pieces that kind of shape it up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's kind of funny too. Do you think
Speaker 2: about the internet communication that has developed, where people will
Speaker 2: something that might be more effective to communicate via text
Speaker 2: using like abbreviations is actually harder to say in abbreviations
Speaker 2: that you're saying that loud, Like there's fewer syllables to
Speaker 2: just say the words that those abbreviations represent, and yet
Speaker 2: people will still speak in abbreviation. So it's not about efficiency,
Speaker 2: it's just about culture that sort of exists. And not
Speaker 2: to say that that we're describing with aav is inefficient,
Speaker 2: just to say that, like, it just evolves a way
Speaker 2: that it evolves, sure, and sometimes that it just looks
Speaker 2: different ways. Arguably, all languages have sort of developed this
Speaker 2: way where you just have a mix of variables with
Speaker 2: a lot of input and influence, and that change over time.
Speaker 2: As we describe, part of what happened with English turning
Speaker 2: into the accented British sort of English that we hear
Speaker 2: now came a lot from French influences and from classism,
Speaker 2: which is one thing we did an episode on that recently.
Speaker 2: You can go back and check out Anyway I digress therefore, ads.
Speaker 3: And adds as an example of language is shaped up
Speaker 3: because it's easier to say than advertisements.
Speaker 2: That is true. That is true. All right, So getting
Speaker 2: into it, we've been talking about the history here of
Speaker 2: AAVE and now getting into the term of bonics. And
Speaker 2: this was actually originally used in nineteen seventy three by
Speaker 2: a group of black scholars. Doctor Robert Williams combined the
Speaker 2: words ebony and phonics to attempt to create a respectful
Speaker 2: term for the study of a a ve so ebeni
Speaker 2: phonics at bonics YEP. A brief discussion of doctor Robert
Speaker 2: Lee Williams. Boy, I almost thought for a second, said
Speaker 2: Robert E. Lee, And I was like, who named this
Speaker 2: person that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Anyway, discussion of doctor Robert Lee Williams the second.
Speaker 2: He was a professor emeritus of psychology and African and
Speaker 2: Afro American Studies at the Washington University in Saint Louis.
Speaker 2: He was a staunch critic of racial and cultural biases
Speaker 2: in IQ testing. We did an episode on that many
Speaker 2: years ago and went on to develop IQ test sensitive
Speaker 2: to cultural variations, including the Black and Diligence Test of
Speaker 2: cultural homogeneity.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think that there's something really valuable in
Speaker 3: understanding that the term of bonics was created by members
Speaker 3: of the black community. And I think it's also important
Speaker 3: to break it apart and understand that it comes from
Speaker 3: black sound, right, phonics, like so black ebony phonics or
Speaker 3: you know, like the you know, the way that we
Speaker 3: say something or the way it sounds like. That's and
Speaker 3: that's why it's not complete today, right, because ave includes
Speaker 3: grammar and syntax and structure and not just the sounds,
Speaker 3: but also all the things that go along with it,
Speaker 3: which is why it's not accurate to use a bonics
Speaker 3: today when we're talking about this, and that's why it
Speaker 3: is an old term, right. Okay, So I'm sure that
Speaker 3: you picked that up as we were talking about this,
Speaker 3: but I think it's really important to.
Speaker 2: Say no, no, that's great. I'm glad you clarified.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Now, in nineteen seventy nine, a lawsuit was filed
Speaker 3: on behalf of black children and Ann Arbor, Michigan. They
Speaker 3: were elementary school students an Arbor decision, this is what
Speaker 3: it was called the n Arbor Decision. It upheld that
Speaker 3: the school was not providing adequate education to black students
Speaker 3: at the school due to their inability to recognize their
Speaker 3: home language, which they described in this lawsuit as Black English.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this was the first educational lawsuit of its
Speaker 3: time where the school was basically just saying, Oh, we're
Speaker 3: not accounting for this language that. We're not accounting for
Speaker 3: the way that our students are speaking. We're not accounting
Speaker 3: for the unique ways and influences that language is showing
Speaker 3: up in our English classes. We're trying to teach English classes,
Speaker 3: but we're having a hard time teaching them because they're
Speaker 3: using different grammar and syntax and structure, and so we
Speaker 3: are basically doing a disservice to these students. And it
Speaker 3: was upheld this was a lawsuit that did make a
Speaker 3: difference and actually improve educational services for many of the
Speaker 3: students in the area.
Speaker 2: Wow, that seems like really early for something like that
Speaker 2: to have worked.
Speaker 3: Also, right, I was like impressed by how early it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay. A couple decades later, on December eighteenth, nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety six, AAVE was brought into the mainstream culture and
Speaker 2: the form of a resolution filed in California the Oakland
Speaker 2: Unified School District pastor resolution that AAVE would be used
Speaker 2: as a teaching option in standard English courses. This resolution
Speaker 2: also aim to provide resources to teachers to help learn
Speaker 2: about AAVE and how to best support its use in
Speaker 2: the classroom. You know, sort of somewhat related to this
Speaker 2: and what I do. We do a lot of academic
Speaker 2: instruction as primarily sort of the job that I have.
Speaker 2: It's a lot of remediation. But in our practice, we
Speaker 2: have some standardized tests that we use that have been
Speaker 2: around for quite a while. But some of them what's
Speaker 2: kind of interesting because as language changes and evolves over time,
Speaker 2: there are some of them where you have to as
Speaker 2: part of the test, like select the correct word to
Speaker 2: complete ascendence. And interestingly, some of them have pronouns as options,
Speaker 2: and so kids have started choosing they instead of he
Speaker 2: or she because it might not be specifying who the
Speaker 2: person is talking about. And so the the sort of
Speaker 2: neutral selected pronoun is they instead, and the answer key
Speaker 2: you lists this as an incorrect answer. But we've sort
Speaker 2: of just adopted as a rule that it's like this
Speaker 2: is no longer a culturally relevant way to score this,
Speaker 2: so any option that can be counted as correct, I'm
Speaker 2: an account is correct because that is technically as they're
Speaker 2: using their language a correct answer, and so it's kind
Speaker 2: of interesting that those tests were even designed with that
Speaker 2: as like a distinction. They felt that was so important
Speaker 2: that it needed to have a scoring criteria attached to
Speaker 2: it in the form of a standardized test.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Then, and I've sort of been the position that I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: that's just not how they how we speak anymore. So
Speaker 2: it's like, that's just not a relevant distinction to make.
Speaker 3: Right, Absolutely, I would implore anybody who's working in a
Speaker 3: helping profession who's using a standardized test to always be
Speaker 3: critical about the standardized test itself and whether or not
Speaker 3: it accurately represents current social norms, whether or not it
Speaker 3: accounts for cultural variation, which in psychology many of them
Speaker 3: do not. As a matter of fact, I know we
Speaker 3: talked about these types of tests before, but I'm going
Speaker 3: to get on a soapbox for a second. Many of
Speaker 3: the tests that we use are normed to college aged
Speaker 3: white men, who are generally neurotypical and do not account
Speaker 3: for the majority of the populations, and psychology has gone
Speaker 3: so far as to develop uniquely culture specific standardized tests
Speaker 3: because of the fact that all of the standardized tests
Speaker 3: that are often used and widely accepted are not normed
Speaker 3: to populations that they're serving. I think it's always valuable
Speaker 3: and I'm going to stress this to all the behavior
Speaker 3: analysts that are listening to this too, is it is
Speaker 3: worth evaluating the standardized test that we use in our
Speaker 3: field because most of them are normed to white autistic
Speaker 3: male children. Most of them are. And so when you
Speaker 3: go look at the standardization and like the VB MAP, shocker,
Speaker 3: it is standardized to white male children with autism. So
Speaker 3: just an important feature of understanding this as we explore
Speaker 3: and why we explore why this resolution from the Oakland
Speaker 3: Unified schol disc was so valuable for this class because
Speaker 3: the curriculum that was being used for the English class
Speaker 3: was not normed to the population that was being served, right, okay,
Speaker 3: so and many times educational standards are missing that too.
Speaker 3: So shockingly the school district puts out this resolution which
Speaker 3: is going to allocate money and time and resources to
Speaker 3: teachers and help support students. The US blows their skin
Speaker 3: lid over it. For those of you who don't know
Speaker 3: how the US works, something will happen in another state
Speaker 3: and then somebody who doesn't live in that state will
Speaker 3: be very upset about it. Like the amount of people
Speaker 3: that are furious about what's happening in New York who
Speaker 3: don't live in New York is absurd right now, Like
Speaker 3: mayor Mom, Donnie is doing some really cool things and really,
Speaker 3: like I mean from a legislative standpoint, doing some really
Speaker 3: great things and really changing the face of New York
Speaker 3: at least from my perspective. Yeah, it seems like yeah,
Speaker 3: and there are people in Alabama who are losing their
Speaker 3: minds over it. But this is what happens, Like politics
Speaker 3: have become such an identity thing that like they're furious
Speaker 3: about that, and apparently it's in the case forever.
Speaker 2: Well, to be fair, like Texas goes about banning books
Speaker 2: and Florida goes about banning books, and people I think
Speaker 2: rightfully lose their mind when they impose those things. So sure,
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily the fact that it's one state commenting
Speaker 2: on another, but it's like the fact that people aren't
Speaker 2: stopping to consider sort of the relevance here and like
Speaker 2: why this matters. It's like it just becomes it's a
Speaker 2: lightning rod to attract fear and get people riled up.
Speaker 2: That people use to try and like push a hate agenda. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that I think is maybe the complaint that we would
Speaker 2: have because yeah, I'm like, you know, the problem with
Speaker 2: the censorship of burning books in these conservative places where
Speaker 2: they hate education and intelligence is that like it robs
Speaker 2: everybody else there of their ability to learn and succeed
Speaker 2: and thrive, right, because they're doing as a form of oppression,
Speaker 2: whereas in this particular situation, they're what they were trying
Speaker 2: to do is be more inclusive and accessible, and like
Speaker 2: that's what people are freaking out about it. I'm like,
Speaker 2: if you are mad about more people having better access
Speaker 2: to things, you are on the wrong team, right, You
Speaker 2: are incorrect, and you're on the losing side of history.
Speaker 3: Yeah, objectively. So yeah, so this happens, so they file
Speaker 3: the resolution, everybody loses their minds. It gets to a
Speaker 3: national level, federal level. And the argument was that using
Speaker 3: AAV and this is just from the argument that people
Speaker 3: were making against it, right, They were arguing that using
Speaker 3: AAV was a drop in standards for English classes, okay,
Speaker 3: which that's a different conversation. And they called the dialect
Speaker 3: lazy and broken, quote unquote lazy and broken. So a
Speaker 3: lot of it. This comes from and I'm sure that
Speaker 3: you're picking up on this already, it comes from a
Speaker 3: racist and class of space where like using language is
Speaker 3: a way to oppress people, and this happens. We did
Speaker 3: an episode on names where where people would apply for
Speaker 3: jobs and they would use what could be considered quote
Speaker 3: unquote ethnic name, and they were not getting the same
Speaker 3: jobs even though they were overqualified compared to white names.
Speaker 3: And so this is just another way that people are
Speaker 3: using education standards to oppress groups of people. Instead of
Speaker 3: you know, raising the tide so all the boats could
Speaker 3: raise with the tide, you know what I mean, all
Speaker 3: they were doing was going, no, we're not going to
Speaker 3: do this, and it's a problem.
Speaker 2: So a week after the resolution passed, Secretary Riley of
Speaker 2: the US Department of Education or DOE RIP DOE, they
Speaker 2: made a public statement in indicating that AAVE was not
Speaker 2: a foreign language and dismissed the movement by the school,
Speaker 2: making a distinction between like a foreign language and like
Speaker 2: a dialect. I guess anyway. This was quickly followed by
Speaker 2: a group of linguists who issued their own public statement
Speaker 2: characterizing AAV as its own distinct dialect. Differing in many
Speaker 2: important ways from the other sort of what you might
Speaker 2: call American standard English, that those they were otherwise sort
Speaker 2: of contacting and being exposed to, or maybe a better
Speaker 2: way is being said is having it forced down their
Speaker 2: throat when that wasn't the way that they communicated.
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, So I want to remind everybody
Speaker 3: this is nineteen ninety six. So this is the year
Speaker 3: that Green Days Insomniac comes out, which is their best record.
Speaker 3: This is the year that Ska breaks. So now you've
Speaker 3: got the SKA movement starts right before like the Latin
Speaker 3: music explosion occurs too, right, So, like there's a lot
Speaker 3: of things happening in the United States. We haven't got
Speaker 3: quite gotten to the future yet. And this is nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety six, the Clinton administration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think Jurassic Park two maybe came out
Speaker 2: this year.
Speaker 3: Jurassic Park two comes out, which is lovely in fight
Speaker 3: Glove or maybe that Fight Club. Yeah that might have been. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's hard to say. You know, the
Speaker 3: nineties were strange, But I bring this up because, like
Speaker 3: when we talk about the political climate at the time,
Speaker 3: this was the Clinton administration. This was not an arguably
Speaker 3: a conservative or Republican administration. This was a Democratic centrist administration.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So with that information, I would like to introduce you
Speaker 3: to an ad so you can suck on that for
Speaker 3: a second, and then we're going to come back and
Speaker 3: talk about this Richard w Riley, who was the Secretary
Speaker 3: of the DOE.
Speaker 2: All right, we're back. We're continuing through the history here
Speaker 2: and the resolution that a school board passed to recognize
Speaker 2: and install some infrastructure for using a AVE in the
Speaker 2: classroom and then that being rejected by a Democrat Secretary Riley.
Speaker 3: Yes, so I would like to share some quick background
Speaker 3: on Secretary Richard w Riley because I think it's important
Speaker 3: to the players in this situation. Yeah, Richard Dick w Riley. So,
Speaker 3: interestingly enough, Riley was a Democrat working underneath the Clinton
Speaker 3: administration at the time of this statement that he made
Speaker 3: that said that AAVE was not its own foreign language.
Speaker 3: He was actually named one of the top ten best
Speaker 3: cabinet members in US history by Time magazine. Wow, and
Speaker 3: here's why. He Actually he had some accomplishments. So one
Speaker 3: thing that he did during his time as the Secretary
Speaker 3: of DOE He's made Internet and telephone pricing affordable for
Speaker 3: public schools so that people could access stuff at the schools,
Speaker 3: which I don't understand why it's not free, who knows,
Speaker 3: But like that's a different problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's something better than nothing,
Speaker 2: but better.
Speaker 3: Than nothing, it's a move in the right direction. I
Speaker 3: think he developed a direct student loan program in federal
Speaker 3: student loans, which didn't exist before, So like that was
Speaker 3: also maybe not so bad, not great, but like a
Speaker 3: move in the and it's kind of been bastardized since then.
Speaker 3: He advocated and actually allocated resources to providing additional training
Speaker 3: and support for teachers so they had better training for
Speaker 3: their jobs, and he took steps to strengthen provisions in
Speaker 3: the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act or IDEA Act.
Speaker 3: So he did do a lot of things that were
Speaker 3: seemingly good for the education space. It just so happened
Speaker 3: that one image I found of him makes him look
Speaker 3: like mister Burns. And despite all of his accomplishments, his
Speaker 3: stance on AAV was clearly a misstep. So people can
Speaker 3: accomplish good things and still mess up. And I think
Speaker 3: that's a really important thing to note that, you know,
Speaker 3: while he did some things that seemed great. He did
Speaker 3: like it looked like mister Burns himself, which was horrifying
Speaker 3: to pull up his picture and he messed up here.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, people are complicated. Most people are not just
Speaker 2: one thing, and they often have a lot of things
Speaker 2: going on. Except Stephen Miller, to that man is pure evil.
Speaker 3: Please tell me you saw the response from the Democratic
Speaker 3: Twitter response It called him the ugly. Their response from
Speaker 3: the official Twitter was shut up, you ugly.
Speaker 2: I did not, but I did see Hunter Biden's response
Speaker 2: to something about this.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, also great, also.
Speaker 2: Great, yes, which have been very entertaining. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: so all right. Well followed the January nineteen ninety seven
Speaker 2: was a series of political maneuvers where resolutions were passed
Speaker 2: stating AAVE was not distinct, stating aave distinctions were absurd
Speaker 2: a strong word, and then hearings occurred through March nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven. Unfortunately, the resolution did not stand due to
Speaker 2: the intense national backlash.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Ultimately, what the school landed on was that they
Speaker 3: were using it as supplemental material instead and not as
Speaker 3: like formal structure and like optional supplemental material. So it
Speaker 3: became an optional thing for teachers, rather than being something
Speaker 3: that was going to be required. Now, now here's the thing.
Speaker 3: Movements like this and resolutions like this, they often are
Speaker 3: a single spark that ignites a flame. Right, So, while
Speaker 3: this original resolution didn't pass, it did lay groundwork for
Speaker 3: a more academic study and scholarly work around AAV for
Speaker 3: the next several decades. So there were actually several legal
Speaker 3: precedents that occurred, like not right after, but pretty soon
Speaker 3: after that included AAVE specifically. One of them was the
Speaker 3: United States versus Arnold in two thousand and seven. Hey Arnold,
Speaker 3: Hey Arnold. I love that show. So they actually highlighted
Speaker 3: the problem with dialectical misunderstanding. Specifically, there was like a
Speaker 3: criminal case, and as a result of this criminal case,
Speaker 3: the charges were dropped because the dialectical misunderstanding came down
Speaker 3: to AAVE grammar tense, which we're going to talk about
Speaker 3: and I think at this point in time, we're going
Speaker 3: to do a second part of this episode, yeah, because
Speaker 3: I think it's going to take a little bit of
Speaker 3: time to do that. But the grammar tense was misinterpreted
Speaker 3: in the court of law, and as a result, there
Speaker 3: were some new precedents set around understanding and recognizing AAV
Speaker 3: as its own dialectical process.
Speaker 2: Wow, uh huh, so that's two thousand and seven. In
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, Rickford and King wrote extensively about the lack
Speaker 2: of translation support among jurors and stenographers, which ultimately led
Speaker 2: to unfair trials where AAVE was used. And so you
Speaker 2: can see, like when it starts getting into the devil's
Speaker 2: in the details thing here, it starts becoming clear why
Speaker 2: it's important to consider these things and not just dismiss
Speaker 2: them as people were trying to do so. Trayvon Martin's
Speaker 2: case was used as an example where Rachel Well I,
Speaker 2: I don't remember this name.
Speaker 3: Gene tells, I think gent Tel.
Speaker 2: Gentell's sorry, where Rachel john Tell's testimony was perceived as
Speaker 2: incomprehensible due to the jury's ignorance of a a VE dialect,
Speaker 2: meaning that that testimony could not be really effectively used
Speaker 2: and in part because of the fact that there was
Speaker 2: so much misunderstanding and lack of education around that dialect
Speaker 2: that did exist and was being treated as if it didn't.
Speaker 3: Yes, And the reason that it was incomprehensible was not
Speaker 3: because of what she was saying it was because there
Speaker 3: were no translators or supports or resources around AVE to
Speaker 3: make it comprehensible to the jury. So at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, it wasn't her fault that her testimony
Speaker 3: couldn't be understood. It was a system's issue. Whenever people
Speaker 3: say language barriers, it always drives me nuts. It's like
Speaker 3: the language barrier is on the service or the system.
Speaker 3: The language barrier is not on the person who's speaking
Speaker 3: the language. Like in a situation, she's speaking what she
Speaker 3: was taught and what she's fluent in, and the system
Speaker 3: around her was not supportive in understanding and providing resources
Speaker 3: to ensure that it was translated or correctly shared. Right,
Speaker 3: And that actually goes into another study. In twenty nineteen,
Speaker 3: there was a study that found that forty percent of
Speaker 3: sentences transcribed by Philadelphia stenographers were inaccurate and specifically related
Speaker 3: to AAVE with ultimately an eighty three percent word accuracy.
Speaker 3: And you might be going, well, eighty three percent word
Speaker 3: accuracy sounds pretty decent. Stenographers are certified at ninety five
Speaker 3: percent accuracy or greater. If they don't have ninety five
Speaker 3: percent accuracy or greater, then it is not a usable transcription.
Speaker 3: So at this point in time, it's just they've lost
Speaker 3: so much of the language in these transcriptions.
Speaker 2: Also, I make the jokes sometimes because I talk about
Speaker 2: how like eighty percent as like a criteria for mastery
Speaker 2: is just asinine to me. I'm like, try listening to
Speaker 2: or understanding language that is eighty three percent accurate. I
Speaker 2: you heard this podcast with seventeen percent of the words
Speaker 2: like just garbled or mashed or replaced with something else, Like,
Speaker 2: it would be incomprehensible. You wouldn't be able to understand
Speaker 2: a huge amount of what was being said. Like, that
Speaker 2: level of accuracy is just it is ineffective for communication.
Speaker 2: So if they're transcribing court testimony in these documents in
Speaker 2: this way with that level of accuracy, like it's going
Speaker 2: to be so inaccurate it will not be able to
Speaker 2: be understood by looking at historical records.
Speaker 3: Right, and ultimately, if it's not understood, it can't be
Speaker 3: reviewed again in the event of an appeal or a
Speaker 3: retrial or in the case of like setting a precedent
Speaker 3: for future legal cases. Like if you can't understand what
Speaker 3: is being discussed or transcribed in the court, it's lost
Speaker 3: and again it speaks to an unbalanced system where the
Speaker 3: legal system benefits certain groups of people and it unfairly
Speaker 3: maligns and sets people back who don't belong to that demographic.
Speaker 3: And so that's just another example of how how our
Speaker 3: legal system screws people over.
Speaker 2: It certainly raises some concerns about the fairness of the
Speaker 2: trial that they received, too, if like the if the testimonies,
Speaker 2: if what was described and what happened what transpired in
Speaker 2: that courtroom was not accurately captured, like, was it also
Speaker 2: inaccurately understood at the time that the communication took place, right,
Speaker 2: And we've already seen a couple of examples where that
Speaker 2: definitely happened, which means there probably are a lot more
Speaker 2: like we're seeing some like that's just barely scratching the.
Speaker 3: Surface one percent.
Speaker 2: All right, we have a ton of things to talk about,
Speaker 2: including understanding the various characteristics of AAVE and how that works.
Speaker 2: So we are going to turn this into a two parter.
Speaker 2: We thought that that was a possibility, but I didn't
Speaker 2: know for sure that's that's where we would be. But
Speaker 2: it's a it's great. So this will be a part
Speaker 2: one next time. We'll come back with a part two.
Speaker 2: We'll jump into, as we said, some of the characteristic features,
Speaker 2: looking at this from sort of a scientific view and
Speaker 2: unpacking it and then getting into, of course, some interesting
Speaker 2: tidbits if you will, tid boints, as we sometimes like
Speaker 2: to call them. Yes, yes, yes, So thank you for
Speaker 2: joining us for this one. Please come back for part
Speaker 2: two so you can hear the things that you might
Speaker 2: have been wondering this whole time, Like it is like
Speaker 2: what so we've been talking about Aeve. What is that like?
Speaker 2: We'll tell you next time, so come back around in
Speaker 2: the meantime. If you would like to support us, you
Speaker 2: can join us on Patreon, leave us a rating and review,
Speaker 2: like subscribe, or tell a friend. All of those things
Speaker 2: really help us out, and we do appreciate anything that
Speaker 2: you are willing and able to do to help us
Speaker 2: be a podcast, reach a nice audience, get ad revenue,
Speaker 2: and just generally communicate with people. Because we do this
Speaker 2: because we're trying to like be educational. We're trying to
Speaker 2: provide a free service out there to people to just
Speaker 2: you know, do some some teaching things. People who have
Speaker 2: taken the leap and really helped us do this are
Speaker 2: our patrons. They receive some bonus content early episodes, add
Speaker 2: free episodes, and we also at the end of each
Speaker 2: of our full lengths, we'll shout them out for just
Speaker 2: being wonderful people and helping us do our things. So
Speaker 2: a giant shout out thank you and welcome to not welcome,
Speaker 2: but just thank you to Mike, em Omegan, Mike t, Justin,
Speaker 2: Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie. Thank you
Speaker 2: all for continuing to help us do our thing.
Speaker 3: Y'all are lovely, all right.
Speaker 2: We actually do like to end our discussions with some recommendations.
Speaker 2: If you have not been with us before, that might
Speaker 2: come up as a surprise that we're going to do
Speaker 2: the credits, and then we recommend some things that are
Speaker 2: just fun, but things that have brought us joy recently,
Speaker 2: so stick around through those. But I'd like to tell
Speaker 2: you first that I cannot do this without the help
Speaker 2: of my team writing and fact checking from Shane and myself.
Speaker 2: Thank you for recording with me today, Shane, and for
Speaker 2: your fantastic work on these notes.
Speaker 3: Hey, thank you. I really tried hard on this one.
Speaker 3: I mean not that I don't try hard at all
Speaker 3: of them, but I try.
Speaker 2: To know this one and uh oh yeah. Our social
Speaker 2: media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And the person who stitches
Speaker 2: all of this together, including long pauses where I'm thinking
Speaker 2: very hard but not saying anything that does not end
Speaker 2: up in the final episode. Luckily for you, it is
Speaker 2: justin our God Emperor producer extraordinary wonder kind, yes, who
Speaker 2: is so good at his job.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's just a gem.
Speaker 2: All right. If you'd like to tell us your thoughts
Speaker 2: on aav you can write to us directly by emailing
Speaker 2: us at info at WWDWWD podcast, and on the social
Speaker 2: media platforms, and we do look forward to hearing from you.
Speaker 2: I think with that we're ready to transition to some recommendations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2: Recommendations.
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna recommend a book. It's a short book.
Speaker 3: It's a collection of short stories. So if you do
Speaker 3: not like short stories, then grow up. Short stories are fun. No,
Speaker 3: You're allowed to like what you like. So this is
Speaker 3: an author I've always really enjoyed because I think he
Speaker 3: does a really great play. He's a great satirical author.
Speaker 3: His name is David Saidaris and the book I'm recommending
Speaker 3: is Holidays on ice. Yes it is June. Yes, these
Speaker 3: stories are about Christmas. And yes, I've had this book
Speaker 3: for like twenty years and just finally read it. So
Speaker 3: he does these short stories, and he's known for being
Speaker 3: i mean, very cutting, but very very satirical. One of
Speaker 3: the stories I was telling Abraham before the show was
Speaker 3: about two neighbors who were trying to like, you know,
Speaker 3: outdo each other giving on Christmas, to the point where
Speaker 3: they end up giving away their kids and their lungs
Speaker 3: and like their scalps and stuff like just very ridiculous
Speaker 3: and over the top. He tells a story about how
Speaker 3: he worked as a Christmas elf during Christmas at Macy's
Speaker 3: in New York and how ridiculous that was. And some
Speaker 3: of the stories, and all of his stories are very
Speaker 3: silly and very I feel like they have a There's
Speaker 3: some of it that's like right, you know, there's a
Speaker 3: sense of cynicism that goes along with some of them.
Speaker 3: But when he writes about his family, there's always like
Speaker 3: this like adoration that goes along with the weirdness that
Speaker 3: is his family. There's one there's one story in here
Speaker 3: called Dinah, the Christmas whore, and it's about how her
Speaker 3: his sister, his sister has to go pick up her
Speaker 3: friend from work who is a sex worker, and how
Speaker 3: they go pick her up and like get her out
Speaker 3: of this abusive situation, and then the family just has
Speaker 3: like all these questions about what it means to be
Speaker 3: a sex worker, and how the whole family comes together
Speaker 3: and just has the best time with her. So like
Speaker 3: it's it's one of those things where it's like they're
Speaker 3: all kind of unified in their weirdness, which is a
Speaker 3: lot of fun. And it just I don't know, I
Speaker 3: just really enjoy David Sedara's stories, and I feel like
Speaker 3: if you have a sense of humor and you have
Speaker 3: strange families, then I think you'll appreciate it.
Speaker 2: The name caught me off guard, but the name of
Speaker 2: that short story, yeah yeah, yeah, uh huh yep. So cool.
Speaker 2: All right, very intrigued. I do enjoy me some short stories,
Speaker 2: and I would be curious to check this one out.
Speaker 2: I'm recommending an album that actually came out maybe like
Speaker 2: seven or eight months ago. I forget when it's been
Speaker 2: out for less than a year. But this is Hailey Williams,
Speaker 2: one of her solo albums.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I really like Paramore and generally they're my preference, but
Speaker 2: Hailey Williams put out this album called Ego Death at
Speaker 2: a Bachelorette Party, and man, this album is so good.
Speaker 3: It's so good.
Speaker 2: I have just been listening to it like over and
Speaker 2: over and over again. It is fantastic. So and the
Speaker 2: sort of the title track on here has a music
Speaker 2: video that's very weird and fun and is an enjoyable
Speaker 2: tune as well. So I would say most of the
Speaker 2: tracks on this album I really really really like, and
Speaker 2: there's like five or six that is always have in
Speaker 2: my head these days. But yeah, so strong recommend is
Speaker 2: Hailey Williams Ego Death at a Bachelorette Party. Right now.
Speaker 2: The song I've been listening to the most is called
Speaker 2: Love Me Different. My other favorite on here is called
Speaker 2: Whim Disappearing Man is really good. Ego Death at a
Speaker 2: Bachelorette Party is really good. There's just great tracks on here,
Speaker 2: so anyway, go check that one out. It is it's
Speaker 2: long in the sense that I think there's like eighteen tracks,
Speaker 2: but all of them are like three minutes, so it's
Speaker 2: not Yeah, they're not super long songs. For the most
Speaker 2: part well, and.
Speaker 3: She does an excellent cover, a shockingly great cover of
Speaker 3: Discovery Channel by Bloodhound Game.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, Yeah, she totally does. And it's
Speaker 2: like it makes the Dare I say it makes the
Speaker 2: original song better?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's very strange.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I probably wouldn't choose that song. But then you
Speaker 2: hear her singing, You're like, oh, this is this is
Speaker 2: this is nice? Nice?
Speaker 3: I wait I heard it and I went, I know
Speaker 3: this song? Why do I know this song? And then
Speaker 3: it got to the chorus and I went, oh.
Speaker 2: No, middle school, that's yeah, middle school.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. It blew my mind. I was like, this is
Speaker 3: this is absurd? But she does a great job with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah it's fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's fantastic. All right. So that is Shane's recommendation.
Speaker 2: David Sidaris a book of short stories called Holidays on Ice,
Speaker 2: and then Hayley Williams solo album Ego Death at a
Speaker 2: Bachelorette Party. Anyway, I think that's what I would say
Speaker 2: about those things. Anything you'd like to add that I
Speaker 2: forgot before we say our goodbyes.
Speaker 3: Nope, I think that covers it. Cool.
Speaker 2: Thank you all for listening. Check us out next week
Speaker 2: for the part two of this.
Speaker 3: But this is Abraham and this is Shane.
Speaker 2: We're out.
Speaker 3: See yup, you've been listening to Why We Do What
Speaker 3: We Do.
Speaker 1: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
Speaker 1: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.