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Every 22 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:19.079 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 23 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:23.359 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 24 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:27.239 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 25 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:39.560 Good Evening. Deborah Sue Williamson was a newly married young 26 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:43.560 woman living in Lubbock, Texas. On August twenty fourth, nineteen 27 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:47.079 seventy five, one night, while her husband was away at work, 28 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.680 she was brutally stabbed seventeen times in the carport of 29 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:55.159 their home. Many suspects were investigated, but no one was charged. 30 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:58.640 The case went cold until the mid nineteen eighties when 31 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:02.159 Henry Lee Lucas, a man notorious for admitting to murders 32 00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:05.599 he didn't commit, confessed to her murder. It was profiled 33 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.800 in the Netflix dock series The Confession Killer. There was 34 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:11.759 only one problem, he didn't kill her. Her mother and 35 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:15.120 stepfather proved Lucas didn't end Debbie's life, and the case 36 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:20.039 went cold once more. True crime author and investigative journalist 37 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:24.639 George Jared teamed with his friend and former Army counterintelligence 38 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:29.199 officer and university professor Jennifer Bouscholtz to study the case 39 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:32.639 in depth. The two became acquainted while trying to solve 40 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:36.240 the unsolved murder of Rebecca Gould. In that case, they 41 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.599 were able to lure the man now charged with the 42 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:42.319 twenty two year old woman slaying onto a Facebook page. 43 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.840 Then her interactions with him prior to his arrest garnered 44 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:49.080 national attention. Their goal was to do the same in 45 00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:52.680 this case. Follow Their year long journey, they took them 46 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:56.319 from the mountains of Colorado to the deserts of West Texas. 47 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.159 Their investigation led them through roe crop fields of the 48 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.759 Mississippi Della and into the Rolling Ozark Kills in Missouri. 49 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.080 The tandem was able to track down nearly every witness, 50 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:09.840 person of interest, and suspect in the case. Along the way, 51 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:12.879 they created a massive team of citizen detectives that have 52 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:15.639 brought resources to bear on a case that is now 53 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:19.199 forty seven years old. The team created an investigative file 54 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.280 many times larger than the original police file. The goal 55 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:25.039 was to create a web that the killer could not escape. 56 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.639 Silent Silhouette is an in depth look into the work 57 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.400 that was done, complete with full interviews of every key 58 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:34.800 player in this real life tragedy. One thing became clear 59 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:38.759 as the investigation unfolded, this case is solvable and it's 60 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:42.199 only a matter of time before this killer is behind bars. 61 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:45.639 The book that we're featuring this evening is Silent Silhouette 62 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:50.000 Who Killed Deborah Sue, with my special guesting investigative journalist 63 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.159 and author George Jared Welcome back to the program, and 64 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:54.520 thank you so much for this interview. 65 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:57.800 George Jared Dan thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. 66 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:00.159 Thank you so much. Nice to have you back, and 67 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:06.319 congratulations on Silent Silhouette. Let's start off immediately with what 68 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:10.680 happens August twenty fourth, nineteen seventy five, and when you're 69 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.800 explaining the Sunday night August twenty fourth, nineteen seventy five 70 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:20.560 in Lubbock, Texas, introduced Bob Lemon, his wife Joyce Elizabeth 71 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:25.879 Liz who's eight years old, and Deborah Sue Debbie Sue Williamson, 72 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:30.199 and she had just married her fiance, Doug earlier that summer, 73 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.240 so if you could, and they also had spent that 74 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:37.120 summer in Buffalo Spring near Buffalo Springs Lake. So tell 75 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:41.439 us about all these friends and the family connections and 76 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:43.759 what they did the day before with some of those 77 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:45.920 same people introduced some of those people. 78 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:49.079 Sure, So, Debora Sue Williamson was eighteen years old. She 79 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:52.000 was a newlywedged She had just married her husband, Doug 80 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:55.399 in June of that year, and so they were married 81 00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.839 for roughly ten weeks. The day before the murder, they 82 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:02.560 had gone out to Buffalo Springs Lake. It's this it's 83 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.600 a recreational area just outside of Lubbock, Texas. Debbie was 84 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:08.319 an avid water skier and so they went out. They 85 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.920 had some friends that were with them, another couple Mike 86 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:14.079 and Dorothy Coffin. They were recently married as well. They 87 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.879 had a guy named Paul who Debbie had sort of 88 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:20.720 dated before Doug, and Paul was also good friends with Doug. 89 00:05:20.759 --> 00:05:23.439 They had been friends for years. And there was another 90 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:27.319 guy named Lex. He was just another friend. Debbie and 91 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.480 he had actually gone to prom together, I think maybe 92 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:32.240 when she was a junior. But they went his friends 93 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:34.040 who is kind of a friend thing. And so there 94 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:35.439 was a group of people out there, and there were 95 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:37.160 more people out of the lake, but those are the 96 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:39.360 primary people that we know of. They were all out 97 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:42.079 there water skiing. So fast forward to the night of 98 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:45.120 the murder, around seven o'clock that night, Debbie is picked 99 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.160 up at her house by her stepdad, Bob Lemons, and 100 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:52.399 her mother Joyce, and her sister Elizabeth Liz. They decided 101 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:54.839 to go to the Pizza Inn where Doug is the 102 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:57.519 manager and Paul, the friend actually had just been hired 103 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.000 as a cook there. So they go around seven o'clock. 104 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.199 At one point they get a little busy and they 105 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.079 needed change for the registered so Debbie actually left and 106 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.160 went and got changed from. We're not sure where she 107 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:09.079 went to go get the change from, but she brought 108 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:12.279 the change back and then around eight point fifteen ish 109 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:14.800 she leaves with her family. They take her back to 110 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.319 her house. Her and Doug lived in a house on 111 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.399 the south end of town. It was kind of a 112 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:22.639 rural area, but it was in the city limits. The 113 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:24.480 house was actually the house that Doug grew up in. 114 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:27.319 His parents had moved to another house, and when they 115 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.240 got married, they gave his childhood home to them as 116 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:32.480 a house to live in. And so they drop her 117 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:35.879 off around probably eight thirty ish. They go back to 118 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:39.480 their house. Around nine o'clock, Doug calls and says, hey, 119 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:41.959 we're getting pretty busy, and she was supposed to return 120 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:44.800 to the Pizza Inn that night anyway, because Doug had 121 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:47.720 borrowed one hundred and forty dollars from the cash register 122 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.600 earlier in the week by a Cebee radio. Now there, 123 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:52.959 it was kind of like an IOU system there, and 124 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:55.879 it was acceptable to do that, but the money had 125 00:06:55.879 --> 00:06:58.639 to be the register had to be reconciled before the 126 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.079 end of the business week, which the business week would 127 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:03.000 have ended that Sunday night, And so she had one 128 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:04.959 hundred and forty dollars in her purse that she was 129 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:06.879 supposed to take back up there, and it was also 130 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:11.720 inventory night, so he left Paul, Doug and Debbie were 131 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.319 supposed to do inventory that night, so she was gonna 132 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.319 come back and help with that. So she told Doug 133 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:18.879 when he called that she was going to finish watching 134 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:21.720 her show, which we believe is the movie The Odd Couple. 135 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.480 That's what the TV was turned to. It ended around 136 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:27.600 nine thirty that night, But Danie'll remember, back in those days, 137 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:29.800 you would have the feature movie of the week and 138 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:33.319 then normally the movie would actually end around nine fifteen ish. 139 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:35.319 Then they would have a very long commercial break and 140 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.240 then they would preview the movie or whatever was going 141 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:40.720 to be shown the next week, and so that's kind 142 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:43.360 of how it was back in those times. So realistically, 143 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:45.879 around not nine fifteen, she could have been walking out 144 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:49.920 the door. Well, ten o'clock comes, no Debbie. Doug starts calling, 145 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.040 calls his house, Mike. He calls Mike and Dorothy, the 146 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.560 couple that they'd gone out with, the day before. He 147 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.680 calls Bob and Joyce. No one knows where Debbie's at. Again, 148 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:02.240 it's nineteen seventy five, there's no cell phones. Obviously, it's 149 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:03.720 a different time. You know, people could be out of 150 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.879 pocket and it wouldn't have been suspicious, you know. But 151 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.959 then eleven o'clock comes, she doesn't show up. Midnight comes, 152 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:13.759 they shut the store down, and then finally at one 153 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.480 o'clock he tells Mary and the waitress who's been working 154 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:18.079 with him all night, I'm going to go home and 155 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.439 check on Debbie. I gotta see what's going on here. 156 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.199 So he leaves. As he's leaving, Paul Head is coming 157 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:26.879 back to the pizza in. Paul had asked to leave 158 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.720 earlier to go on a date, so he left around 159 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:32.799 eight forty five that night, and so as Doug leaves, 160 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.399 Paul is coming back in and then their friend Lex 161 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.240 had been there probably for about an hour and a half, 162 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.440 just waiting, and Lex didn't work at the pizza in 163 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:43.200 Lex would come and help them do things at the store, 164 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:45.320 and they and then Doug would like give him a pizza. 165 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.320 It's one of those kind of arrangements, so it's just 166 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:48.759 kind of helping a friend out and then he would 167 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:50.480 get a free pizza out of the deal. So Mary 168 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:53.159 and the waitress, Paul and Lex a there. Doug drives 169 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:56.360 to his home. He immediately notices something that is amiss. 170 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:58.840 The back door is wide open, so he gets out 171 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.200 of his pissed car. He starts to walk up to 172 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.399 the backstep and he stumbles upon Debbie's body. She had 173 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:08.519 been stabbed seventeen times, her pants had been pulled down, 174 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:09.799 and her shirt had been pulled up to make it 175 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:13.240 look like she'd been raped, but later her autopsy indicated 176 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:15.919 that she had not been sexually assaulted. The kitchen window 177 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:20.559 right above or right near the porch had been knocked 178 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:22.960 out with a garden hoe. It was kind of strange 179 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.360 because the back door was left wide open, and this 180 00:09:25.480 --> 00:09:28.600 window most like human, an average sized man, it'd be 181 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.159 really hard for him to fit through there, and it's 182 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:32.720 kind of high, so it'd be hard to get in there. 183 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.120 And then if you do go through the window, you're 184 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:37.960 gonna there's a kitchen sink right there, So that was 185 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:39.879 obviously a ruise. It was just just trying to throw 186 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.240 the investigators off, especially since there's also a sliding glass 187 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:44.720 door right there. If you're going to shatter a door, 188 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:47.399 you could shatter that and walk right through it. So 189 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.240 Doug panics. He gets back into his car. He drives 190 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:53.039 back to the pizza ind which the pizza end was 191 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:55.600 only about probably four minutes away, so it wasn't that far. 192 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:00.159 He comes back, he goes inside and he tells them Hi, 193 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.200 he said Debbie's been raped, and so he gets on 194 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.399 the phone and he tells the dispatcher that his wife 195 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.840 has been raped and that he needs a police officer now. 196 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:12.440 Lex and Paul jump into Lex's car. They drive out 197 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:15.480 there and Lex actually checks Debbie for a polse and 198 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:19.559 of course she's obviously dead, and then Doug arrives moments later, 199 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.440 and then they wait for the police. A little bit 200 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.120 later that night, not much later, Bob and Joyce show up. 201 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.080 Interesting thing about Bob is Bob at this point in 202 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.919 his life was legally blind. He couldn't even drive, and 203 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.519 as soon as he finds out that something's happened to Debbie, 204 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:38.080 they're trying to keep him away. He quite literally knocked 205 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:40.919 two police officers to the ground and rushed to her. 206 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:43.639 And then he said, he said for the rest of 207 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.240 his life. He immediately regretted that decision because he saw her. 208 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:48.799 And so that's how this odyssey started. 209 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.919 Paul Neil, Let's go back to Doug who he was 210 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.360 the assistant manager. Paul Neil, but he had only been 211 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.080 working for a couple of weeks with Doug. He had 212 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.759 spent the summer and missed the wedding between Debbie and Doug, 213 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.919 and some question that he'd been working out of town. 214 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.799 But it was odd some people thought that he had 215 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:11.440 missed this wedding. At eight o'clock he had asked Doug 216 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.039 if he could leave and go on a date. He 217 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:17.600 had shown up for work, clocked in after five o'clock. 218 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:21.120 Tell us about why he was asking to leave and 219 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.159 the timeline of when he actually did leave. 220 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.080 So, Paul Neil, he was he dated Debbie and then 221 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:29.840 she split up with him to go out with Doug 222 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:33.440 and it was pretty obvious that he was upset by this. 223 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:36.480 It was it was in the contemporaneous police reports that 224 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:38.320 we were able to get our hands on that they 225 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:40.960 talked to him about this several times. Joyce the mom 226 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.519 had said, you know that Paul that At one point 227 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.480 Paul even asked, Joyce, you know, why doesn't Debbie love me? 228 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:48.919 And so there was obviously some friction there when she 229 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.200 decided to date one of his best friends, and so 230 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:53.720 he was not invited to their wedding. I guess it 231 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:57.200 had been contentious enough. Even Actually, since we wrote the book, 232 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:00.200 we've actually had a couple more witnesses approaches that we 233 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.759 didn't even know about, who could speak to it a 234 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:05.360 little bit more. And so Paul was out of town 235 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:08.399 all summer working I think, like in the ool fields 236 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:10.360 or something like that in Texas well. A couple of 237 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:13.399 weeks before the murder, he comes back to town and Doug 238 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.879 hires him to be an assistant manager slash cook at 239 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.039 the Pizza Inn, and so on the night of the 240 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.480 murder he's there cooking. Well, at eight o'clock he asked Doug. 241 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.039 He said, hey, can I leave early? I've got a 242 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.799 date with a woman named Tina, and Doug says that's fine, 243 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:29.759 And Doug didn't have a problem with it because the 244 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:33.039 manager's bonus there. This way the system worked, he got 245 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:35.399 a bigger bonus every month depending on how much money 246 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:37.360 he saved on labor. So letting him go on a 247 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.399 Sunday night was actually perfect because they're normally not busy. 248 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:44.039 So when Paul's interviewed by police a couple of days later, 249 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:46.919 they asked him, they say, so when did you leave? 250 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.000 He said, I left at nine to ten, and then 251 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:52.519 he arrived for his date with Tina at around ten o'clock. 252 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:55.039 The problem is is that we got a copy of 253 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.799 his time card, and his time card said he clocked 254 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:00.399 out at eight forty three, and so there's that's a 255 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.799 difference of almost thirty minutes. Another thing happened right around 256 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.200 the time that he ended up leaving too. Remember I 257 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.240 told you that Doug had called Debbie to tell her 258 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:09.840 that they were busy and that he may need some 259 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:11.879 help if she needed to maybe come early. Well, there 260 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:13.840 was one other thing that Doug had to talk to 261 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:17.519 her about. Paul asked Doug if he could take a 262 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:20.879 shower at their house, and his reasoning was was that 263 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.879 Debbie and Doug's house was much closer to Tina's house, 264 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:25.799 the woman he was going on a date with, and 265 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:28.000 so he wanted to know if he could go by 266 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:30.720 there and take a shower. Well, Doug told Debbie this, 267 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.879 and this is one thing we don't know for certain. 268 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:37.960 We don't know if because Paul said at the time 269 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:39.919 he said, well, if she's there by herself, I don't 270 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:42.639 want to go there. He said that, But we don't 271 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:45.240 know that Debbie knew that he wasn't coming, because we 272 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.200 think Doug just told her, Hey, Paul's going to swing 273 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.039 by and take a shower. And so this detail really 274 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:52.399 jumped out to us because we thought it was very odd. 275 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:55.399 I've asked a lot of people, and again not blaming anybody, 276 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:57.519 not saying it that he had anything to do with it, 277 00:13:57.559 --> 00:14:01.159 but I haven't found anybody who who could plausibly come 278 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.840 up with a reason why an ex boyfriend would be 279 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.960 coming over to take a shower to married woman's house. 280 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.480 You talked to Tina McBride the date that he went 281 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.879 on that night, and it was a very enlightening conversation 282 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.320 you had with her. Tell us what she noted and 283 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:20.360 what was the timeline for her when he had called 284 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.919 her about the date. Give us those details and the 285 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:27.840 description of his appearance and his behavior by Tina Sure. 286 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.480 So tracking her down was a challenge. She lives, I 287 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:33.120 hate to say it. She lives in the middle of nowhere. 288 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.799 She lives out in the Texas desert. So we I mean, 289 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.360 at one point when we went to Lewck in August 290 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:41.799 of twenty twenty one, she was on not at the 291 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:43.600 top of our list of people, but she was one 292 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.399 of the people that we really wanted to talk to, 293 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.000 right And so we finally found an address for her. 294 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:49.919 And it was out in the middle of nowhere. Like 295 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.799 I drove my car like eight miles down. It's not 296 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:54.840 even gravel road, it was a trail, and there were 297 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.480 oil jacks bobbing up and down. There was you know, 298 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.320 I don't know what was the terms prop vista. You know, 299 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:02.720 it was like it was like a desert, you know, pumbleweeds, 300 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:06.639 one eyed, Susan's everywhere, cows everywhere. So we get to 301 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.639 their house and her husband was outside playing with a 302 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.399 dog in their front yard, beautiful ranch style house, and 303 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:14.440 he looked at me kind of weird. He was looking 304 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:15.919 at my car. I know he was thinking. He was thinking, 305 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:17.440 how in the world did you get this card here? 306 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:20.240 And so we said, can we talk to Tina? And 307 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:22.240 he goes, well, yes, she's inside making lunch. And so 308 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:24.159 we opened the door and as soon as she sees us, 309 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:26.759 she says, you want to talk about Debora c. Williamson, 310 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.799 don't you? And we said yes, and she goes and 311 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:30.879 you want to know how Paul Neil acted that night? 312 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:34.879 And we said yes, And so she invited us into 313 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:36.360 her home and we sat and talked to her for 314 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:39.240 a couple hours. She said she was very agitated that night. 315 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.399 And Dan, the thing of it is is that told 316 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.960 Jennifer this later, I said, you was watching her body language, 317 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.320 and even all these years later, I could tell that 318 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:49.799 she was aggravated that he was late picking her up 319 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.600 because they were supposed to go on a date. It 320 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:54.960 wasn't it. He was supposed to arrive before ten o'clock 321 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.200 and he didn't. And when he did arrive, she said 322 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.559 he was covered in water. It was so like he 323 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:02.360 had just got out of the shower. And she said 324 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:03.879 he didn't smell at pizza at all, like he had 325 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.200 really scrubbed himself. Off, and so they get in this 326 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.080 car and they're driving around and he did not want 327 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:12.320 to go. Like, she worked part time at that pizza 328 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.559 Inn and she was getting ready to go to college 329 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:16.159 at Texas A, and m like, we're going to leave 330 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.679 the next week. So she wanted to go by there. 331 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.600 And you know, it was a thing to do in 332 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.679 the seventies, you go hang out parking lots at you know, 333 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.039 restaurants and stuff like that. And so she wanted to 334 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:26.799 go to Pizza Inn because she knew people there and 335 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.679 people who hung out around there at night. He wanted 336 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.559 to go to the McDonald's down the street, and he 337 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.080 would not go to the Pizza Inn. So that was 338 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.039 aggravating her. And she also said that he was acting 339 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:37.200 very very nervous. 340 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.639 You talk about too, that the timeline that he told 341 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.480 her or she said that he had called and said 342 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:47.080 he was still at work, was nine thirty. So very 343 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:48.879 very interesting development there. 344 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.399 Yes, I forgot about that detailed Dan. So he called 345 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.679 her at nine thirty and said that he was still 346 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.360 at work. That's correct, and so and again this was 347 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.600 in the contemporaneous police report. You know, one advantage that 348 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:04.319 we had in this case was because of the Henry 349 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.400 Lee Lucas fiasco that you noted at the beginning, the 350 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.599 Lobboit Police Department or the DA, not the Loved police department, 351 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:13.279 but the DA in the case got really aggravated with 352 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:15.839 Bob Lemmons because they had fought so hard to prove 353 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:17.720 that Henry le Lucas didn't kill the daughter. 354 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:18.079 Right. 355 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.519 Well, there was a moment where Bob was sitting across 356 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.559 a desk from the DA, and the DA had the 357 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:26.559 entire case file sitting in front of him, and he 358 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:28.680 pushed the entire thing to Bob and says and says 359 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.319 something to the effect of, well, if you don't think 360 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.039 we can solve it, maybe you can. And so Bob 361 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:35.960 took the entire case file and so the family has 362 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.640 had this case file since then. So this provided us 363 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.559 access to the original reports. 364 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:46.000 Now the Lubbock, Texas how police responded to this is 365 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.920 obviously part of your investigation. Almost all the people that 366 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.079 you were able to interview were interviewed by police, but 367 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.839 as you write that, despite anything, they were never reinterviewed again. 368 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:00.839 People like Tina was interviewed once, and some of these 369 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:05.039 interviews were very brief, and so tell us about your investigation, 370 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.759 and as you write, there was how you and Jennifer 371 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:13.319 and your relationship plays into this. So explain your working 372 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:18.400 relationship with Jennifer Bousholt and how it contributed to this 373 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:19.880 investigation greatly. 374 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.079 So Jennifer and I became friends back in twenty nineteen. 375 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:26.720 She was a counter intelligence agent in the US Army. 376 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:31.119 Her job was basically to she worked in Afghanistan and South 377 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.240 Koreas some places like that, and her job was to 378 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.720 vet people who work on these bases to see if 379 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:38.359 they're terrorists or not. And she was very good at 380 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.119 what she did well. When she got out of the Army, 381 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.559 she became a professor of criminology at AMU University in 382 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.720 Colorado Springs, Colorado, and she had heard me on a 383 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:50.319 podcast talking about the Rebecca Gould murder case, so she 384 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:54.559 contacted me. Her and I became fast friends, and we 385 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.279 noticed that like I'm an investigative journalist, I'm a true 386 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:00.640 crime author. I have certain skills like she has, like 387 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:03.160 her skill sets exactly the opposite of mind in a 388 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:05.680 lot of ways. So we actually we're pretty good partners 389 00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.519 like that. So we formed a Facebook page in Rebecca's 390 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:10.519 case to make a long story short, and we were 391 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.720 able to lure a guy named William Miller onto this page. 392 00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:16.039 Rebecca was a twenty two year old college student who 393 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:19.119 was murdered on September twentieth, two thousand and four, Melbourne, Arkansas. 394 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.759 The case went unsolved for sixteen years. Well, we earned 395 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:24.799 this guy onto the page and he started communicating with 396 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.319 us and again, to make a long story short, and 397 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:29.400 it turns out that this guy was the first cousin 398 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:32.000 of her sort of ex boyfriend and she was actually 399 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:35.519 murdered in the sort of ex boyfriend's home. She was 400 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.319 kind of an on again, off on again, off again relationship. 401 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.359