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Speaker 1: So so so so.

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Speaker 2: Dire wave. Our anthropology is not derived by human psychology

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or you know, urcal data from I T or something

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like this. It's derived from the revealed aspect of what

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we see prisology, and so there's no real way to

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diagnose me. That's a problem and understand man and Man's anthropology,

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as I said, without the arright theology. Hello, hey, how

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are you being well? Excellent? So we are live? Is

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that cool?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's fine, okaytally fine, excellent. I'm an idiot.

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I had it at seven and was at nine. For me,

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I was like I was there at seven. I'm like,

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what's going on? And I realized, No, I'm I am

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living the other direction.

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Speaker 2: I did. I don't understand time zones. I'm always like

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I don't know how what who came up with that

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or how they work. It's like another dimension or something.

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I don't even know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I really struggle. I always struggle, And it's so

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it's weird because I had to do with it all

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the time, but I still forget which way it goes.

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Speaker 2: I just teld Jamie to schedule things and then everything

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gets confused because she's like me, she's no good at scheduling,

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so everything it's all screwed up. But welcome. We got

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the man himself, Jonathan Pazio finally has joined us. He's here, everybody,

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and I know a lot of people have been waiting

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a long time for this stream to actually come about,

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and so I'm really thankful for him to be here

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to join us, and I'm looking forward to this conversation.

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He suggested obviously the most logical topic, which would be

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to discuss icons, and of course Jonathan is an icon carver.

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I will read his bio for you guys if you're

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not familiar with Jonathan in this audience. It says his

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bio says he is a professional artist, writer, public speaker.

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He delivers lectures every year in universities, conferences, and other

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venues around North America. He speaks on art and especially

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the symbolic structures that underlie our experience of the world.

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His YouTube channel, of course in the podcast is Symbolic World.

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It's linked in the show description for you guys. He

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also furthers the conversation on symbolism, meaning and patterns and

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everything from movies to icons to trends. Definitely got some

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overlap there with movies and pop culture. As an artist,

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Jonathan is one of the only professional art on carvers

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in North America. That's fascinating. He takes on institutional and

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personal art commissions from all over the world. You can

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view his carving works at the Carving website, which I

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also I believe I linked. And then he is the

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editor and contributor to Orthodox Arts Journal, which looks at

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the revival and significance of liturgical art today. He also

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gives weekly carving we should me week long carving classes

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with Hexamron School with Liturgical Arts credit, which is credited

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by pont Defects University. And Jonathan, is anything else you

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want to add to that bio before we get into it.

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Speaker 1: No, that's the deluxe bio you got there. So that's good. Thanks.

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Speaker 2: Well, I always want to give people the full you know,

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like read because when people do my bio there, I

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was like, there me something really quick, dude, So you

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look talk about movies or whatever. It's like, well, I

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do some other things too, but yeah, I do talk

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about movies.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but it's hard when we have when we

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had doing so many things, like you're also someone who

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does like all these different things. So when people look

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at our our identity, they're like, who is this guy? Like,

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how what? These things don't seem like they don't fit

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in neat boxes.

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Speaker 2: Let's say, right, yeah, and the whole internet world has

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created for those of us to make our own content.

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This weird thing where like if we're talking to our

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grandparents or the boomers and they're like, what do you do?

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And then like, well, how do you describe that? Like

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I sell myself on the internet, They're like, well that

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sounds scandalous. No, not in that way. I sell myself

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in the sense of right, all right.

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Speaker 1: I need to use that one When people ask me

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what do you do? I'm like, I'm an artist, but

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I also do this YouTube thing. You know, it's hard

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to exprime. Yeah, I sell myself on the Internet. There

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you go.

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Speaker 2: So let's get into the topic tonight, which is iconography,

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the reality of symbols, symbolic reality that we did a

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couple podcasts recently on the philosophy iconography. So I want

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to get into that with you tonight. And why don't

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you start with giving us you perspective as you approached orthodoxy,

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maybe a little bit of background where you came from,

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when you got into the Orthodox Church and then what

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led to you, like applying your artistic talents to that domain,

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and then we'll get into the deep symbolism of yeah,

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of icons.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up in a Protestant background. My father

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was a Baptist minister when I was younger, but converted

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from Catholicism. And Quebec here, you know, it was like

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the most Catholic place in the world. Basically, I think

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like during World War Two, the Vatican had secret plans

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to move to Quebec, you know, if Musolini won the war.

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So it's a pretty it was like the most Catholic

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place in the world. And then the sixties there was

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this massive flip and everybody kind of went crazy, like

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everywhere else in the world as well. And but part

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of the people that kind of left the Catholic Church

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in the sixties and seventies became Evangelicals, and that was

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my parents. It was part of them. For them, it

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was like a real authentic move towards understanding Christ because

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the Catholic Church was quite superficial. Also in Quebec it

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was like just a Catholicism anyway. So I grew up

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in that Milieure, and I was a very artistic from

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my young age. You know, I thought I was going

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to do comic books, and I thought I was going

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to be a painter. And I went to college in

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fine arts and really struggled the whole time, just struggled

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all through college. I was doing really well, like I

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had really good grades, and I was doing well in

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terms of performance, but it was a struggle, like to

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a double struggle. One was being evangelical and making images,

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because there's like an implicit hostility. It's not explicit, you know.

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I mean, if you ask a Baptist if they think

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paintings are wrong, they won't say they think that, but

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don't bring them into church for sure. And also they

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struggled to kind of explain it theologically, like what role

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do these objects have in the world. So I was

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struggling with that, and then I was also struggling as

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a Christian in the contemporary art world, because contemporary art

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is so cynical and so ironic. It's just you know,

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commentary upon commentary and this kind of weird you know,

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making art about art all the time, and elitism and

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all that stuff, and so for me, it was like

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it was such a struggle that my whole art work

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art practice ended up being about that. It was making

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these images with like the bronze serpent and the Tower

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of Babble and the problem with images, and it was

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it was just kind of convoluted and crazy. Uh. And

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so it was so funny because my professor that was

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in charge of me the last day, on my last evaluation,

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she said, Johnathan, don't worry. You're getting a's. You know,

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you're doing well, You're fine, but really, what are you

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doing here? You really don't belong here. You should go

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to seminary or something. Uh. And I was cocky, so

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I just rolled off my back. But she was right.

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She was totally right. And so I finished school, got

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a studio, did the did the artist thing, got like

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a post industrial studio, you know, space with friends and

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painted and did all that. But the crisis just kept

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growing and it turned into like a spiritual crisis, I

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would say, right, it turned into a spiritual crisis where

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things just weren't connecting in terms of meaning and in

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terms of my faith, and you know, I just I

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started to perceive that it was just this weird narrative

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of Jesus dying on the cross, laid over a materialist substrate,

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and it just didn't it just wasn't making sense, and

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so I started, so I destroyed all my art to

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stop painting and just dropped it completely abandoned it and

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started to search and reading and reading and reading, and

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obviously led me into weird corners at first, reading kind

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of more, you know, reading things from other traditions, reading

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things from kind of more kind of esoteric Christianity. And luckily,

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in my kind of wild search, I discovered the Church Fathers.

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I discovered Saint Gregor Nissa, I discovered Saint Maximus. I

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discovered also Vladimirloski, who I would say Vladimirloski basically converted me.

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And and obviously with Vlatimirloski and then with Uspenski, I

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also discovered the traditional imagery of the Church. And at

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first it was like discovering kind of medieval imagery in general,

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and just falling in love with this art because I

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realized that it was really kind of this It was

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really like a language. It was more than just visual images.

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It was like this internal language, just kind of internal algebra,

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which was actually similar to scripture. It was like these patterns,

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repeating patterns and images that referred to themselves and to

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each other and kind of point to each other. And

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also in the architecture, how certain images are in certain

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places in the church, and how they kind of reflect

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each other, you know, like let's say, in the Apps

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you have certain images, in the Western Wall you have

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certain images. And so I really started to see it

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as like this amazing symphony of images, and I just

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fell in love with it. And that's really that. So that,

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let's say, the more theoretical part discovering the saints and

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discovering especially the mystical part of Christianity, and then discovering

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this amazing language of kind of medieval art, at first

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being sad because I thought it didn't exist anymore, and

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then then then discovering Uspenski and this kind of rediscovered

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the icon and thinking, yes, it does exist, and I

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need to become Orthodox. So so that's what led me

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in two thousand and one is the first time I

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went into an Orthodox church and it was during a

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it was during a vesperal liturgy. I know, it was

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a pre sanctified liturgy in the middle of the week,

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and you know, it's like presanctified. It's dark and you're

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bowing your forehead to the ground, and there's candles and

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and there's this really kind of intense, very solemn, you know, liturgy.

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And I knew right there that I was going to

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become Orthodox. It was just a question of time, you know,

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just that first time in the church. And so then slowly,

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you know, I started to I wanted to paint icons.

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Actually that's what I wanted to do. But at that time,

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and in two thousand and two, thousand and one, two

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thousand and two, there weren't any teachers. You just it

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was really people really struggling to find teachers. And I

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knew it's something. The painting is very complicated. It's it's

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it's very technical, and so I knew that I couldn't

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improvise the painting because it was like egg you have

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to learn how to make egg paint and all the

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guilding and you know, all these layers and stuff. I

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was from contemporary art, like, I had no technical skills whatsoever.

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And uh, and so my parents cut down the tree

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in their yard and they said, Jonathan, do you want

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some of this wood? Supposedly you can carve it. It

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was Linden Tree, and I thought, ah, I'm gonna make

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a blessing cross, like I was just super hyped. I

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had no tools. I had exacto knives, like carved this

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whole cross with exacto knives. Like the actual shape of

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the cross that carved with exacto knives, which is really

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embarrassing to think about now. And I showed it to

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the priests at the church where I was going. I

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was still a catechumen, and he was like, you know,

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this is okay, you should you should keep going and

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uh and then I did and I kept going. And

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you know, there's a lot more to the story. But finally, uh,

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many years later, my bishop gave me a commission for

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a panagia, for a for a pendant and then of

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a cross. And I asked him, I said, if I

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if I do this commission to me, this means that

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this is like a blessing to me for me, for

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me to do this, and he said, of course, and uh,

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and then I'll be honest. From then on, I never stopped,

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like I just always had commissions and I've been carving

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now full time since two thousand eleven. Pretty much.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah. Yeah. So there's some parallels there that

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I can recall in my journey as well, where I know,

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when I was in the Protestant world, one thing that

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always sort of entranced me was the symbolism that I

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would see in the arts. So I would see symbolism

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in film and literature, and then when you take college classes,

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you do these readings of the texts and so forth,

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and then I realized that, you know, this was everywhere

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in scripture. And then when I would go to church.

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I was at that time in a pretty hardcore Calvinist

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church that was very kind of a conoclastic, and there

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was like, there's, yeah, there's a symbolism everywhere out there

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and everything, but God doesn't like it basically, and that's

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what I and I would get into these arguments with

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my Protestant pastor because I'd be like, well, but don't

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you think even in the New Testament there's you know,

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Paul talks about Tupo host typology and don't you and

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he was like, no, no, no, you can only talk about

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symbols when it specifically stated in the New Testament or

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some weird rule that he had. Yeah, I remember that

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was kind of when I was starting to think maybe

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I need to look at you know, church fathers or

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out side of the realm of Protestantism. And at that

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time I didn't know about orthodox I just kind of

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drifted towards the Roman Catholic world. But my question would

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be there, I like that you said the scripture is

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really kind of a a lexicon of symbols that way.

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And one thing when I was Roman Catholic, I read St.

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John Damascus and his defensive icons, and I remember him

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kind of presenting iconography like another way to read everything. Right,

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So in other words, reality is kind of like an

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iconographic text that we read our experience. As we read them,

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we interpret them. The Bible is a book we read

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and interpret, and icons that we do the same thing.

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So at that stage, you know, and I was coming

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into the Roman Catholic world, I just saw, oh, well,

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icons are just you know, a neat thing that's like

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maybe another form of religious art, right, But I think

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there's something significant that I didn't know that that you know, eventually,

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as you get into Orthodoxy you kind of learned. But

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before we get into the significance and distinct set apart

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nature of iconography, could you go into maybe your take

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on how you see what John Damascus calls like an

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iconographic representation of the world, the way that we can

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we can see the world as kind of a well,

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I forget the word you use, but like a network

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of symbols or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that, you know, we realize. I think

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it's it's we're in a good moment right now. In

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terms of even secular people, like they can kind of

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understand the problem of multiplicity, right, the problem of you know,

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what is it, uh, this kind of explosion of detail,

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that everything is too complicated if you if you if

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you don't have patterns that organized reality, right then then

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everything has a million of details and it's like indefinite

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amount of details. And so what you realize is that

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even our just basic perception of the world is always

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pattern it's always it's it's teleological, right, You're always judging something,

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whether it's a good whatever it is you're looking at,

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and that lays itself out in a hierarchy. And that's

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what I think is going on in scripture and in

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icons that is it's a condensed form of your everyday experience.

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It's kind of like a map or like the most

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condensed version of something that you can actually experience every day.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so so I think that like, for example, like

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the if you really look at the text in Genesis,

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you really have this amazingly condensed, like one of the

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most condensed stories that has ever probably the most condensedory

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has ever ever existed, and just lays out this image

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of reality, this limite of heavy above and below, and

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then this hierarchy of this ontological hierarchy. Uh, and you

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know the problem of going down the ontological hierarchy and

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the possibility of of let's say, being up in the garden.

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All of these all of these things are actually related

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to our experience of the world. And then icons they

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do it in a visual way. It's, uh, it's not

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in time, but it's in space. And so in icons

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you can actually do things that you can't totally do

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in scripture because it's it's simultaneous. So you have this

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kind of simultaneous experience of of a space that's laid

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out exactly like in Genesis. So you have above, you

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have below, and it's very graphic in an icon compared

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to like let's say a baroque image, where the perspective

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can be from anywhere, it can be from underneath or whatever,

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and there's all this idiosyncrasy in an icon. You have

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you have the top part, which is Heaven, the bottom part,

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which is Earth, and then inside that things will be

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laid out in a a in an ontological hierarchy, So

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you won't have the hand of God coming from below.

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That'd be stupid. I mean, it's so intuitive, it's so

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intuitively right that we don't even question it. But nonetheless

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that's how that's how the the icon will present itself.

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The glory of God will peer above or the hand

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of God will peer above, and then the things that

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are at the bottom, you'll have this cracked earth, often

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with like openings into the darkness at the bottom of

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icons to kind of show you this cosmic image. You know,

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even in the even in an icon that's not talking

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about that, it will still have that pattern, that pattern

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within it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes me think of approximations in scripture. There's,

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like you said, not an exact one to one because

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of usually scripture, if it's not like a poetic text

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or a prophetic text, it's presenting things in a you know,

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linear storytelling model. And but if you look at Apocalypse twelve.

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You have that excellent example of with Mary. She's also

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an image of Israel. She's also an image of the Church,

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and she's also an image of the historical battle of

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the Serpent with the people of God. So you have

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basically all of time and space, you know, squished into

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this image of Mary as Queen of Heaven. And I

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think it just made me think of that when you

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were talking about how it's kind of presenting a series

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of patterns condensed into one event. I remember when I

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was Protestant or coming into it to back in the

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two thousands into rom Catholicism, I was I was having

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a problem with this. I was thinking, how as a

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Protestant could I convey what I'm understanding to you know people,

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And I thought, well, if you think about the way

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that the Bible for a Protestant is called the Holy Bible, right,

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I mean, it's like it has this notion of it

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being set apart as a special book. And but and

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then when you try to, like, uh, explain iconography to

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people who who are reticent to go down that route.

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If you think about when you read Luke one and two,

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the story of the of the of the Annunciation and

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you're you're getting this kind of image in your head.

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I'm not saying that we should, you know, come up

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with imaginary images. I'm just saying that it's kind of

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unavoidable as a human when you read the text, you

358
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kind of get this story in your head, and then

359
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when you look at the eye kind of the annunciation,

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you're looking at a like you said, like a single

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encapsulated image that's telling you the whole presentation of Loot

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one and two about the you know, the birth or

363
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the message of the incarnation of our Savior. So it

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really clicked with me one day where it was like,

365
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you know, if you can if we can convey that

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to the Protestant then and that's a huge hang up,

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you know, for so many Protestants des ideed of images.

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We can convey the fact that it's really not doing

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anything different than what scripture is doing. It's just doing

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it in a different medium, in a different.

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Speaker 3: Form, and it's creating different It does end up creating different,

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different possible insights into the mystery of Christ that scripture

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doesn't do exactly in the same way.

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Speaker 1: You know, you look at an image of the crucifixion

375
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or one of the best versions. One of the best

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images to kind of understand this is an image of

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the ascension. For example, So you have this image of

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the ascension, you have Christ up above, you know, being

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brought up by the Marcaba. He actually has wheels underneath it.

380
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And so that's not in the text, right, that's not

381
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in the text. But the icon is connecting you saying,

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you know those times where Elijah went up, you know

383
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where this chariot that Ezekiel saw. It's like, this is

384
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related to this ascension, you know. And so you have

385
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Christ going up into the heavens, and then at the

386
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bottom you have in the center you have the Mother

387
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of God often standing on a pedestal, which is interesting.

388
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So it's like Christ, the heaven is thrown and the

389
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earth is his pedestal, right, and so the Mother of

390
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God in the center, and then the disciples all gathered around.

391
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And then you look at the icon and you're like, well,

392
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why is Saint Paul there? Because Saint Paul was there,

393
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wasn't there at the ascension right point, But he's there

394
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because it's that concentration. It's like that possibility of saying

395
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this is an event that happened. It's an image of

396
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an event that happened, but we're going to show to

397
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you in a way that it is actually revealing the

398
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mystery of the Church itself and the cosmic mystery of

399
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what Christ is doing and it's and it becomes an

400
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image of both the ascension and the and the last

401
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Moment and the return of Christ at the same time.

402
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This is something that is hard to do in a text,

403
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but in an image you can create these these cosmic

404
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maps that are just astounding when you start to think

405
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about it.

406
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Speaker 2: That's a great point. There was one of the debates

407
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that was that was had at the Moscow Icon Synods.

408
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Somebody was discussing how icons can tell us things outside

409
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of time and space, they can tell us things in

410
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that higher dimension because and he used an example. I

411
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want to say, it was an example of some of

412
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the icons that present other people at at Pentecost who

413
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aren't actually at Pentecost.

414
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Speaker 1: Yeah, the same thing as as ascension. Saint Paul is

415
00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:05,000
there and the evangelist are there.

416
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Speaker 2: And yeah, that's a great point because one thing that

417
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,680
really struck me when I got into Orthodox theology was

418
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that the mysteries and the theology is being presented in

419
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time and space, but also above time and space, and

420
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so even the the the perspectabilism of icons is intended

421
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to give you that window into heaven so that you're

422
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outside of just the here and the now. So just

423
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like Christ's Cross, as Saint Maximus says, the benefits can

424
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be applied before and after the actual event. The same

425
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,400
idea is going on with iconography, where we're actually looking

426
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into the eternal realities and so their windows into heaven.

427
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And I wanted to get into the neoplatonic stuff as well,

428
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,920
if you're okay going in that direction, yeah, because I

429
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think neoplatonism has both pros and cons in this side

430
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,000
of iconography, because on the one hand, you got a

431
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type prototype relationship of the patterns that relate back to

432
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,759
their archetype. And then you've also got a misuse of

433
00:23:08,839 --> 00:23:12,440
neo platonism when you get into the icon councils, I mean,

434
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,880
excuse me, in the iconoclass, because they were trying to

435
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say there's nothing significant about an icon. Everything is just

436
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,559
an icon of the ideas. And so there's two extremes

437
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that we can go. We can like the Protestant you

438
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,200
know extreme, the iconic class extreme. And then there's I

439
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,920
think the middle position, the balance position of orthodoxy, where we,

440
00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:35,319
as Saint Gregory Palma says, we're actually affirming it's not

441
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:41,119
an either or dialectic between history versus the suprahistorical. It's

442
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a both. And because Christ is suprahistorical, he transcends, he's transcendent,

443
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but he's also imminent, and he also came into time

444
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in space.

445
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Speaker 1: And there's also all of these problems end up being

446
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,640
solved by hierarchy in general. That is, there are concentrats

447
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and you can, like I always imagine that this pattern

448
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like a mountain, right, It's like, as you go up

449
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the mountain, there's like a concentration of reality towards that

450
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space where heaven and earth meat. And let's say, the

451
00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:09,880
higher you go, the more liturgical the world becomes, the

452
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more pattern, the more like a poem, like a or

453
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like an icon the world becomes. It doesn't mean that

454
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at the bottom of the mountain God isn't manifesting himself also,

455
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but there is a reality in which even though you

456
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,559
can bring let's say, the power of the liturgy into

457
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your everyday life, into your everyday life, there is nonetheless

458
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a hierarchy in which it kind of flows through that. Right,

459
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It's like for you to be able to kind of

460
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,000
see God in like taking your cup of coffee, you know,

461
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,599
you also have to you have to be connected through

462
00:24:39,599 --> 00:24:42,839
the sacraments and through this more concentrated version of reality

463
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,279
for things to kind of lay themselves out properly. And

464
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so that the kind of argument where it's like, you know,

465
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I can pray to God on the toilet, you know,

466
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no problem, Like I get talk to God anywhere. And

467
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,720
that kind of reduction of reality is like you said,

468
00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:58,039
it is. It's almost like a kind of not like

469
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a kind of subtle narcissism where there isn't this idea

470
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that that the forms the real the forms in the world,

471
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not the forms. But let's say that the actual particulars

472
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in the world they actually do manifest God at their

473
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,039
level of reality, like sam Maximus tells us, like they

474
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,079
just kind of embodied different aspects of God to their capacity.

475
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,720
Let's say, and the the icons of the sacraments and

476
00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:23,160
the liturgy are just more concentrated and more kind of

477
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,279
are closer to the top of the mountain.

478
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: Let's say, Yeah, that's that, that's that great analogy of

479
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,160
you know, the life of Moses and going up the

480
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:33,880
mountain that we see in the cap of Dosians. I

481
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,640
mean one thing that I would ask, I want to

482
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,000
get your take on, because this comes up a lot

483
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:43,640
when if we're talking to Roman Catholic friends or people

484
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,319
who are in that line of thinking in which I

485
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,039
used to be in, and I would think, well, look, uh,

486
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,000
you know, Orthodoxy and Catholics does don't really differ on this,

487
00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:54,559
because we all believe in religious art and we all

488
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:58,920
believe in religious imagery. And my take would be that, well,

489
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,599
we do have actually a diference in regard to the

490
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:07,079
Seventh Ecumenical Council because we see iconography, at least in

491
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,400
my understanding, we see it as not just religious art.

492
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,200
It's actually another class of things that's particular to the liturgy.

493
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,240
And I'm not trying to be overly rigorous. I know

494
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:19,359
there's some flexibility in the liturgy, and you know, Russian

495
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,519
styles of icons versus Greek styles of icons. I'm aware

496
00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:24,680
of that, but there is I think a market to

497
00:26:24,759 --> 00:26:29,480
difference between say, Renaissance style art, which I think we

498
00:26:29,519 --> 00:26:32,559
can appreciate. I just at an interview with my priest

499
00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:35,240
who's a specialist in Renaissance art. So I have no

500
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:39,000
problem with an appreciation for Renaissance art style, but there's

501
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,599
definitely definitely a different norm and practice that we see

502
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,319
in the Orthodox world, you know, liturgically speaking, as opposed

503
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,720
to what we see in the Sistine Chapel. So even

504
00:26:49,759 --> 00:26:53,200
though we can appreciate it, could you speak to how

505
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,440
would you explain to somebody who thinks that, well, what's

506
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,039
the difference? Who cares if it's an icon or assisting

507
00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:01,240
chapel at all means a thing? Or do you think

508
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:02,640
do you think there's a significance.

509
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: There's definitely there's a there's a very significant difference. One

510
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,680
of the things we see that happens is that after

511
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,240
the Seventh Decamentical Council, the images that we use become

512
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,880
become they appear. They appear pretty fast. Actually, you know,

513
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,839
they were based on prototypes that existed before, and so

514
00:27:20,079 --> 00:27:22,960
you do find threads of many of the images that

515
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,519
we find we see today in pre uh pre seventh

516
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:29,000
Dicamenical Council art that you've seen in Rome and you've

517
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,119
seen different areas, but after the Council, you really see

518
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,079
this kind of formalization of the image, and what's going

519
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,880
on is really a it's like we realize what the

520
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,119
role of the image is like we we actually kind

521
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,640
of gave ourselves a frame for it, you know, because

522
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,599
it was a little maybe unclear before. We gave ourselves

523
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,799
a frame. And now we made those images as theological

524
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,200
as possible. They were just refined in their into their

525
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,960
most theological form. And so what happens is that there's

526
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,279
always flexibility. The Orthodoxy is not like a like a

527
00:28:00,319 --> 00:28:04,640
military operation. There's there's always a place where it's a

528
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,119
the more rigorous tradition and the flexibility of the milieure,

529
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,640
the flexibility of the even of the artists will appear.

530
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,319
But there nonetheless has to be certain things which are

531
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,839
unsaid that have to be respected, and that just comes

532
00:28:16,839 --> 00:28:19,720
from getting the mind of the of the church, right

533
00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:22,000
as once you're in the world and you start to

534
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:23,680
look at icons and look at icons and look at

535
00:28:23,799 --> 00:28:26,480
icons and have someone to teach you, or you read,

536
00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:29,079
or you you start to see what is essential and

537
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:34,480
what is idiosyncratic. But those essential things are very essential.

538
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:37,559
And what you're doing when you're participating that is it's

539
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:42,599
almost it's almost liturgical, even in a briefly sense that

540
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:45,720
is that for the liturgy to exist, like you said,

541
00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:47,680
there is a little bit of variability, but there are

542
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,119
some things which really need to be there for it

543
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,920
to be an effective liturgy. And there's the same thing

544
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,240
with icons there's certain elements which really need to be

545
00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:58,400
there for it to be for it to be let's

546
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,279
say canonical, or to participate in the liturgical life of

547
00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:04,880
the church, and so and so. I think that that's

548
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,480
something that even you can see that even as the

549
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,160
Orthodox Church went towards Western art and it did, you know,

550
00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:16,200
in the in the eighteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth nineteenth century. Nonetheless

551
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,359
you can look at a lot most of those images

552
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,160
and the elements that the iconograph, iconological elements, they still

553
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,279
had to put them in there because they instinctively knew

554
00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:29,359
that if you don't have let's say, you know, the

555
00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:31,960
skull of Atom, you know in the in the image

556
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880
of the Crucifixion, if you don't have certain things, certain

557
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,839
basic things, if you don't have Christ in the cave,

558
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,960
if you do for the Nativity, if you don't have

559
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,160
certain basic elements, then you are definitely someone's going to

560
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,559
rip your icon off the wall. Like the people are

561
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:48,279
actually going to become aggressive and are going to want

562
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:52,559
to destroy these these images, whereas in the Catholic Church,

563
00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:55,960
you know, Pope Benedict said that that the Catholic Church

564
00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:59,559
never fully accepted the Seventh Ecumenical Council. And I think

565
00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:01,880
that that it's true. And what it and what you

566
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,920
can see is that although all this say, all the

567
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,680
way up to the thirteenth century, you have an iconographic

568
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:10,960
sense and and a rich iconographic sense, but you can

569
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,599
see more variability, let's say, and then that more variability,

570
00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:17,319
which was okay at the beginning, starts to then break

571
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:20,839
down into idiosyncrasy and you know, little dogs at the

572
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,519
at the at the in the front of paintings, and

573
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:26,440
you know, wanting to show all these kind of more

574
00:30:26,519 --> 00:30:29,200
sensual images, and you know, just this just just just

575
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,240
a breakdown of theology and the image where theology becomes

576
00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:33,920
secondary to the to the effect.

577
00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:36,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, that's a great That's that summarizes it perfectly

578
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:41,039
that in the Roman mindset is the theology is subordinated

579
00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:43,759
to the practical usage of the usages of the enemy,

580
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,359
or in me, the imagery. Excuse me, I'm sorry, Roman Cathoxs.

581
00:30:48,359 --> 00:30:50,599
I'm not calling you guys. It was a slip of

582
00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:53,240
the tongue, right, they're gonna say Freudian slip exposed to

583
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,640
clip it right. No, But so the I'm glad that

584
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,759
you mentioned the beginning to the Aspensky Lawski book Theology

585
00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:05,039
of the Icon, because that volume two is great for

586
00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:10,440
going into the history of the the Icon discussions and

587
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,799
debates and councils, you know, after the Seventh Council, and

588
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:17,039
there's there's a great chapter on Palamas in there where

589
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,200
you know, before I looked at Orthodox theology, I'd never

590
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:24,880
thought about that Saints have a golden halo for a reason.

591
00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:28,240
Like it's not just because they're like an angel or something,

592
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,160
you know. I think like when I was Protestant or Catholic,

593
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,119
I was, Oh, that's just like showing that they're like

594
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,160
heavenly or whatever. Dude, No, it's actually teaching the Palamite

595
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:39,279
doctrine of the uncreated energies, that the Saints actually possess

596
00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:41,519
and participate in the uncreated light. And that's what that

597
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,960
you know, golden halo actually signifies. And then you look

598
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,079
at when you look at the icon of Christ, right

599
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:49,160
and you see him with the I am right, that's

600
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,039
the Greek letters that Christ wears in at least the

601
00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:54,920
Byzantine Icon of Christ. And so I started, really, oh,

602
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,200
so this is the the icon has to teach write theology.

603
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,359
And that was like a big thing that off in

604
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,200
my head, Like, you can't just do anything in an

605
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,640
icon because you want to convey the right theology of

606
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,279
the right meaning. And so that's what's so key here

607
00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:11,759
is that it's not so much about the I think

608
00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:14,480
the way Saint Jerome spoke of Scripture, he said, it's

609
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:16,319
not so much a matter of the of the words

610
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:18,319
that is, as it is the meaning, Right, what are

611
00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:21,480
we conveying in this That's the key point here. So

612
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,559
maybe there's flexibility and the means of the medium itself,

613
00:32:26,599 --> 00:32:28,599
but the meaning is what's key. And I think that, Yeah,

614
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,200
you talk about that quite a bit.

615
00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:33,119
Speaker 1: And one of the things that actually, I think one

616
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,920
of the things that helped preserve the meaning in the

617
00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:39,920
Orthodox Church was also the fact that the icons are

618
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,839
like I hate the word system, but let's say they're

619
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,279
like a full language, right, So it's like the images

620
00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:50,039
aren't independent from each other. The images are all talking

621
00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:52,720
to each other. And so because of that, it also

622
00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:57,160
becomes complicated to to let's say, affect one image, because

623
00:32:57,279 --> 00:33:00,920
there's like a whole underlying language which makes all these

624
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,359
images like talk to each other, like I said, and

625
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,279
so you know, and so let's say you have that said,

626
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:09,119
the image of Christ's and glory. You know, you have

627
00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:12,079
him in the Dome as you know, the Pantrocrator, as

628
00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:13,880
the one returning at the end of time. But then

629
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,359
you'll also see him in the Akonostasis as Christ in

630
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,039
the center with as with the Mother of God and

631
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:22,599
Saint John on on the side, and then you'll see

632
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:24,519
it in the Last Judgment, you'll see in the ascension.

633
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,720
And so this image of Christ's and glory becomes you know,

634
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,480
is moved from into different icons to show different aspects

635
00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:34,440
of the mystery. And that's true for a lot of elements.

636
00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:36,599
And so because of that, it's I think it's one

637
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,720
of the things that kind of held the language much

638
00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:42,039
longer because people realize that this isn't just like I'm

639
00:33:42,079 --> 00:33:45,160
just not I'm not just making like some image of

640
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,640
the you know, the transfiguration, because I you know, I

641
00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:50,160
like to and because the church asking too. It's it's

642
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,079
that that image of the transfiguration in the icons of

643
00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:55,759
the feast has to be standing next to the other

644
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,640
images of the feast, and there has to be a

645
00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:02,240
kind of theological and imagistic coherance among all these images. Uh.

646
00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:04,440
And the fact that the images were also in the

647
00:34:04,519 --> 00:34:06,720
church right as in the West there was less of that,

648
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,480
especially after the Gothic period, there was less and less

649
00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:13,440
painting on the walls and more and more, you know,

650
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,320
just kind of paintings hung up in the church. Uh.

651
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:20,119
That I think that also transformed this this kind of

652
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,400
sense of of of an entire sacred space that has

653
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,039
all these images referring to each other.

654
00:34:27,079 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: One thing that comes to mind there is the notion

655
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,639
of sacred space, and that sacred space is supposed to Uh.

656
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,360
There's a good book by Marchelia Iliada on the Sacred

657
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,119
and the Profane. He talks about the sacred space and

658
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,719
being outside of time and space. And I think that

659
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,960
the temple and the Temple's imagery and the the imagery

660
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,000
of the Ark of the Covenant, and the imagery of

661
00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:54,199
the Tabernacle, all of that was, you know, uh, preparing

662
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,800
the way for what we have in reality, you know,

663
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,280
in our temples, in our churches, and so I know

664
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,159
you you've commented on in the past as well as

665
00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:05,840
we have on this channel, say Maximus as mysticgogy of

666
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,519
the church. How does that play in it? How does

667
00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:11,760
the whole space of the church play into this in

668
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,280
relationship to the icons.

669
00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:16,559
Speaker 1: Well, if you look at like if you look at

670
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:18,400
the the image of the church, let's say the most

671
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,039
traditional version of the of the Orthodox Church, with the

672
00:35:21,039 --> 00:35:23,400
dome and with an apse and then with a square

673
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,400
or across at the at the bottom, you really have

674
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,960
an image of the of the ascension itself. It's it's

675
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,559
an image the early images of Christ up in the

676
00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:33,519
dome were actually images of the ascension.

677
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:34,159
Speaker 2: Uh.

678
00:35:34,159 --> 00:35:36,199
Speaker 1: And then you have the disciples below that were kind

679
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,559
of like the earth that was looking up towards Heaven

680
00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:42,320
and seeing Christ above. And so I think that you

681
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,840
can see that the church is a is a microcausm.

682
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,800
It's a it's one version of the human being is

683
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,800
the microcosm. But it's like one higher version of that

684
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,800
microcosm is the actual church itself, because it has a

685
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,199
square at the bottom, which is the Earth or the

686
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,360
New Jerusalem. You know, all these are the or the

687
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,679
tabernacle or the you know, the the not the Tabernacle,

688
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,639
but the Art of the Covenant, which was also this box.

689
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:12,039
So it's like receiving the glory of God below and

690
00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:15,119
then above you have the Dome of Heaven, the rainbow,

691
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,199
and you see Christ sitting on a rainbow. In some

692
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,239
of the early icons, it's like this round part and

693
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,639
so and so the church becomes really like an image

694
00:36:24,679 --> 00:36:28,440
of the entire cosmos itself, and then the icons within that,

695
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,440
within that space will then reflect their different place in

696
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,519
in the so like you wouldn't have an image of

697
00:36:35,519 --> 00:36:38,360
the DORMITIONI in the dome of the Church, right, you

698
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,639
put an image of the dormicion on the western wall

699
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,760
because it represents the end of the liturgical year, because

700
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,159
it represents the mysterious end of the life of the Virgin.

701
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,159
You know, this death that is going to move towards resurrection,

702
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,679
but it still has to be recognized as this last

703
00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:56,360
moment or the last judgment. On the western wall, for example,

704
00:36:56,519 --> 00:36:59,880
these two images are there because the western wall has

705
00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:05,039
reality in the liturgical space. You know, this image of

706
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,239
this image of Christ, you know, coming like a lightning

707
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,079
bolt from the east to the west. You know, this

708
00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:12,880
kind of imagery of moving from the beginning to the end. Well,

709
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,760
the Church has that that shape itself. And so at

710
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,079
the in the east you'll have the panagea, you'll have

711
00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:21,320
the rising of the sun you could say, with the

712
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,440
Christ coming out of the of the Virgin. And then

713
00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:26,719
in the west and you have the end of that process,

714
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,760
which is the death of the Virgin or the last judgment.

715
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,360
So those are little little images of how the Church

716
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,360
participates in this in the in the kind of cosmic image.

717
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,000
But you know, it's there are so many everything about

718
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:42,480
the way the icons are placed will have that will

719
00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:43,719
kind of have that same shape.

720
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 2: Let's say, oh yeah, that's great. One thing too that

721
00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:50,599
struck me reading Saint Maximus, which I'm sure you would

722
00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:52,280
resonate with, and I want to get your comment on

723
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,519
this is Maximus has a very positive view of nature,

724
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,079
the natural world, and so he sees the natural world

725
00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:02,159
as in fact, one of the embodiments of the Logos.

726
00:38:02,199 --> 00:38:04,480
And he speaks of, you know, three different embodiments. He

727
00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:07,519
speaks of the embodiment of the Logos in the Virgin,

728
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:11,800
the embodiment in the humanity, that he that he took

729
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,719
the Virgin, and then he speaks of the embodiment in

730
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,280
the church and in nature in the sense of he

731
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:21,400
calls it a veil that the logos wears. And I'm curious,

732
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,159
is there a relationship between iconography and the natural world

733
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:32,360
in the sense that is there a regularity to the

734
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:39,519
way iconography presents animals, tree life basically in the natural world.

735
00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:46,199
Speaker 1: Well, many of the many icons they represent the desert,

736
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,719
like most of I say, most of the icons, they

737
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,480
tend to represent the world as the desert. And so

738
00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:54,880
you can see then there's something of the wilderness, let's say,

739
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:58,480
So there's something of monastic, very monastic about you know,

740
00:38:58,519 --> 00:39:01,320
how the iconographic tradition God develops. So that's why you'll

741
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,480
see always see behind Christ these cracked earth, these these

742
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:07,320
kind of cracked earth mountains, and you see often cracks

743
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,880
at the bottom of the of the world, you know,

744
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,599
with with with holes where sometimes you can see darkness

745
00:39:12,599 --> 00:39:15,280
at the at the bottom. And so usually it's seen

746
00:39:15,559 --> 00:39:19,920
as as as wilderness. And so it's so there's this

747
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,559
ascetical there's more of an aesthetical vision in let's say,

748
00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:28,760
the way that the iconographical tradition got transmitted. But there

749
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,400
are other ways to see what sat Maximus talked about,

750
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,880
which I see it has to do with ornamentation. So

751
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,559
in a in a church, which you'll have is you'll

752
00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:42,239
have images, but then also on the between the images

753
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,400
you'll have foliage. You'll have uh, you know, foliage with

754
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,239
animals in them and all this kind of a natural space.

755
00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:53,239
So you can actually get that hierarchy of revelation in

756
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:57,000
the very structure of how images present themselves, Like if

757
00:39:57,039 --> 00:39:59,199
you look at a medieval manuscript, like even a western

758
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,559
medieval manuscript, you really get that that structure where you

759
00:40:02,559 --> 00:40:04,639
have the image in the center, and then on the

760
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,880
outskirts of the image you'll have foliage. You'll have all

761
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,480
these these these ornaments that are made of leaves and

762
00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:13,360
have animals in them and sometimes even have monsters and

763
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,360
you know, and the gargoyle type creatures. And so there

764
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,800
is this idea of this this kind of basic cosmic

765
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,119
image of everything, of everything kind of participating in this

766
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,280
in this pattern, even to the end of the world,

767
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,719
you could say. And so I think that that's probably

768
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,880
the best way to see it. And but in icons,

769
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,639
really we've developed this more of an aesthetic image. So

770
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,840
the trees are very sparse, you know, there's a there's

771
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,960
kind of like a there's more of a desert imagery.

772
00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:40,719
If you look at the icons, you'll start to notice

773
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,880
it if you haven't noticed it before, that that tends

774
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,880
to be the way that the tradition developed.

775
00:40:46,039 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, and you know this life being that passage

776
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,920
through the desert wandering too, you know, the esqaton and

777
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,280
being you know, the Promised Land. I wanted to ask

778
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,840
to you about, uh they you mentioned the We were

779
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,239
talking about neil Platonism earlier, and you know, when I

780
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,320
first met you had we had heard a lecture about

781
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:12,760
the Neoplatonic idea, the Plutonian idea of this sort of

782
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,840
journey that goes on from creatures that that sort of

783
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,519
go out from God and then they go through a process,

784
00:41:21,599 --> 00:41:24,119
a cycle, and they come back to God. Even the

785
00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:26,280
Pagans seem to have had a notion, as we know

786
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,559
from like the orphic mysteries and this kind of stuff

787
00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:33,280
of nature goes through this sort of cycle right of birth, death, resurrection,

788
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,079
and then we have a cycle obviously in the church

789
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:38,119
as well, where we have the liturgical cycle. And I've

790
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:41,599
always just found it amazing if we think about it,

791
00:41:41,639 --> 00:41:44,920
that the whole purpose of the liturgical cycle is actually

792
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,320
a commentary in a way on nature, the cycle of

793
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,360
the natural world. It's like, the real meaning of the

794
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,800
natural world is this stuff is the liturgical cycle? Would

795
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:57,960
you would you agree with that?

796
00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: I totally agree, And I think that it's actually a

797
00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:03,320
key that a lot of people want to dismiss because

798
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,760
they're afraid that they have paganism. So a lot of

799
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,039
people if you point to them, right, so you've you've

800
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:11,639
heard that argument before, right, it's like, oh, the Nativity

801
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:14,119
of Christ is just it's just the solstice. You know

802
00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:16,519
that the Christians try to take over all that kind

803
00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:18,920
of nonsense. But I think that we can we can

804
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,880
actually flip that back on us, because I do believe

805
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,920
it is about the solstice. But what it's doing, it's

806
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,840
actually revealing the cosmic mystery of the solstice, in the

807
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,440
incarnation of Christ, in the darkness of the cave, this

808
00:42:30,559 --> 00:42:34,000
hidden mystery which is not yet completely revealed, in the

809
00:42:34,079 --> 00:42:35,800
in the lowest place, you know, in the manger, in

810
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,039
the place where the animals eat, like the lowest part

811
00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:40,760
of the world. And then we'll start to reveal himself,

812
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,159
you know, as the year kind of moves on and

813
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,280
so like to me, that's not a problem at all.

814
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,280
And of course, I mean, you know the fact that

815
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,559
we have the dormssion at the fall, all of these

816
00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:52,320
things make complete sense in terms of just the natural

817
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,519
cycle of things. But like you said, it's not people

818
00:42:55,559 --> 00:42:58,320
see it in the upside down way. They think that, oh,

819
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,400
it's just Christian trying to take over these these pagan holidays.

820
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,800
And not these pagan holidays, these are just natural cycles

821
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,159
that God created, and Christians are now trying to reorient

822
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:10,039
them towards their ultimate meaning. And and and even if

823
00:43:10,079 --> 00:43:12,239
they do use and I don't even have a problem

824
00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:15,400
to the extent that sometimes Christian actually took some of

825
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,239
the pagan elements and then redirected them towards their fullness

826
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,800
of meaning. Either it doesn't it doesn't bother me at all,

827
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,960
because you know, if you tell me that Christmas isn't

828
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,079
about celebrating the nativity of Price, then you're just it's

829
00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:30,000
this is it's bull like, that's what it's that's what

830
00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:32,639
that's what we celebrate. And and if there are some

831
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,280
you know, like some like say the Christmas tree, like

832
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,320
it's some people say all this is an old pagan tradition,

833
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,800
blah blah blah blah blah. It's like, okay, fine, but

834
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,760
when I look at a Christmas tree, it's like, I

835
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,679
don't know. I see a star up there, and I

836
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,760
see all these lights going down, and then I see

837
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,480
christ below in the major and I'm like, I know

838
00:43:47,519 --> 00:43:50,159
that that's pretty good pattern. I don't actually don't have

839
00:43:50,199 --> 00:43:51,360
a problem with it at all.

840
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a kind of a basic problem that

841
00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:57,239
we always address on this channel because a lot of

842
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,559
the you know, evangelical crowd, they get upset about that

843
00:43:59,599 --> 00:44:02,280
kind of stuf. And if you use this or that symbol, Oh,

844
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,079
then symbols only have one meaning and they always mean

845
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:08,000
this occult thing. No, No, symbols have a lot of different meaning.

846
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:11,159
And the example we always give is, look, Jesus is

847
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:13,320
the lion of the tribe of Judah. Okay, Satan is

848
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,519
the lion who goes about seeking human madd apower. So

849
00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:20,119
a lion can have different reference in different senses, different contexts,

850
00:44:20,119 --> 00:44:22,599
and so in the same way. A lot of symbols

851
00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:24,880
actually work this way. So we can't have like a

852
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,360
you know, isomorphic single sense to which symbols always only

853
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,360
mean this thing. Another good example of this that you

854
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,199
touched on a minute ago is the microcosm macrocosm element.

855
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,400
This is something that it's probably debated, I would say,

856
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,480
as to the actual origins of this, because on the

857
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,679
one hand, we could say, well, now, wait a minute,

858
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:49,760
this is an esoteric, alchemical, neoplatonic thing. Well, yeah, the

859
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,920
neoplatonists talk about Man as a microcosm of the macrocosm,

860
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:59,000
but Paul speaks of Christ as the microcosm of the macrocosm.

861
00:44:59,079 --> 00:45:02,559
So it really doesn't matter who's using the argument or

862
00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:05,920
where it comes from. If it's true, it doesn't matter, right,

863
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,920
And so we can appropriate those things we can, And

864
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,360
in fact, some scholars even argue that that idea was

865
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,519
actually in Jewish theology prior to Paul. It was already there.

866
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:17,960
That you know, Israel is a kind of a body

867
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,960
of God. There's a whole tradition in Jewish theology of

868
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,760
Israel being the bride and body of God and this

869
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,559
kind of stuff. So there's fluidity in these ideas that

870
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:29,880
we don't have to have this rigid notion that if

871
00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:32,920
a pagan philosopher says this, then it must have come

872
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,320
from him, and it must have come from demons. Now,

873
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,960
you know, that's a silly kind of idea approach to

874
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,920
these things, because again, even Saint Paul right in his epistles,

875
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,840
he calls, you know, Christ the new atom, and by

876
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,360
being the new atom, he encapsulates as a divine hypostasis

877
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,199
with a human human nature. He encapsulates not just all

878
00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:55,920
of human nature, but according to Romans eight, cosmic scope

879
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,480
of all reality and some same Maximus can go so

880
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,000
far as to say that Christ not only reconciles all

881
00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:07,239
of dispersed discrete human nature that was fragmented from the Fall,

882
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,480
but he says all of cosmic reality is restored in

883
00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:11,199
the incarnation.

884
00:46:11,639 --> 00:46:15,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, and same Maximus goes, Same Maximus like, people really

885
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:17,679
just have to read him, because I mean, he really

886
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,800
talks about how the entire cosmos is meant to be divinized,

887
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,280
Like it's not even just man like through man, yes,

888
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,159
but ultimately all of creation is headed toward divinizations. That's

889
00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:30,519
the reason why I was created in the first place, basically,

890
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,480
And so I totally agree with you, and I think

891
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,760
that that's to me and I think, like you said,

892
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,920
I think what it is it's a weird thing because

893
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,960
you see the Orthodox circles too. It's like Orthodox Orthodox

894
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,679
people they kind of converted from Protestantism and were very

895
00:46:43,679 --> 00:46:46,320
anti Catholic and so saw a lot of like weird

896
00:46:47,199 --> 00:46:50,119
or interpreted a lot of Catholic things as weirdly esoteric.

897
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,880
Then they become Orthodox and they keep doing that. But

898
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:55,760
it's like you have a lot of stuff that if

899
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,960
you keep doing that, you're gonna run into major problems.

900
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,280
Like when you see your bishop with a staff that

901
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,239
has two snakes on it, You're going to run into

902
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,280
a major problem, my friend, because it's like it's like

903
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,400
you you have to drop that type of thinking and

904
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,000
rather see the image for what it is, in its

905
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,880
context and how you know, how it can be, how

906
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,000
it can be even if it was taken from some

907
00:47:16,079 --> 00:47:20,159
pagan source. It can be reoriented because Christ redeems, you know,

908
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,320
but it has to be reoriented obviously, Like you're not

909
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,440
gonna have heavy metal music playing in a in an

910
00:47:24,519 --> 00:47:27,960
Orthodox church because it just you know, it's not it's

911
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,679
not reoriented in the proper, the proper way or in

912
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,679
the proper hierarchy. But some things have been and that's

913
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,000
completely fine. Like the image of let's say a domed building. Uh,

914
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,320
you know that came from Roman. It came from Roman architecture.

915
00:47:41,599 --> 00:47:44,360
But it's an But like, who why would you deny that?

916
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,239
It's an amazing image. It's a it's a powerful image

917
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,960
that is completely coherent with biblical symbolism and the Biblical

918
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,760
way of describing reality. And so it's like, why would

919
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,599
you why would you throw it away if you can

920
00:47:55,639 --> 00:47:57,239
now reorient it towards Christ?

921
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:05,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, saying uh uh, Muslims had steeples aka minarets before Protestants,

922
00:48:05,559 --> 00:48:08,039
and so if you're a Protestant, you're getting your steeple

923
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:11,159
from a Muslim. Just joking, but yeah, I know exactly.

924
00:48:11,199 --> 00:48:13,719
You played the genetic fallacy there where it has nothing

925
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:18,320
to do with whether it's true or false. But so, uh,

926
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,119
let's see, you did bring up something there I wanted

927
00:48:20,119 --> 00:48:24,760
to ask you about. Oh so, I remember one of

928
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,800
the first things I read from you, and I did.

929
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,800
I don't think I realized at the time when I

930
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,280
had read it that that was you, And it was

931
00:48:31,559 --> 00:48:33,360
I believe an essay that you had done. It was

932
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,599
an excellent essay, by the way, on that very thing

933
00:48:36,679 --> 00:48:40,639
that the double headed snake on the staff. Could you

934
00:48:40,679 --> 00:48:44,280
maybe go into that because I actually get not not

935
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,039
a lot, but every now and then I get, you know,

936
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,360
a Protestant who say, what is this? This looks it

937
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,679
looks a cultic, and it's like, no, no, you have to

938
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,639
understand the context of the symbolis. I mean, do you

939
00:48:53,639 --> 00:48:55,679
think that the bronze serpent on a pole was it

940
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,639
was a cultic? No, it's in numbers, it's in John three.

941
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,559
So could you could you go into some of that

942
00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:03,239
because your essay was really good on that, well.

943
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,639
Speaker 1: It had it's a very it has to do it revealing.

944
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,360
It reveals very much a mystery of Christ, very much. So.

945
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,679
That is, it's not just about even understanding the staff

946
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:16,559
of the of the Bishop, of the two servants. It's

947
00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:20,199
understanding first of all the serpentine shape that Christ has

948
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,320
on the cross itself, you know, and that you can

949
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,079
understand its superficially. It's saying, okay, he's the bronze serpent,

950
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,920
you know, but this is this is there's a there's

951
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,039
an even deeper mystery to that, which is the snake

952
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:35,480
in the garden. You know, there are different ways of

953
00:49:35,559 --> 00:49:37,800
understanding the snake in the garden. Obviously, you know, you

954
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,960
can say it's satan, you can say. But a good

955
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,119
way I think of understanding it, which makes sense and

956
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,519
kind of orthodox anthropology, is to understand this the snake

957
00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:48,400
as the purveyor of death, that the one who's bringing death,

958
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,960
you know, because he's lying about the nature of reality,

959
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,519
and he's going to bring humans into fragmentation and dispersion

960
00:49:56,639 --> 00:50:00,400
and and so and so it's death. It's changed as well, o, right,

961
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,320
change in the negative sense, change in the sense that

962
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,039
here you're in the you're in the proper state, and

963
00:50:04,039 --> 00:50:06,559
now we're going to change you back into the lower state.

964
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,280
But what Christ does is he reverses that process. Right,

965
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,679
he uses death against death, you can say, right, he

966
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,159
dies to restore life. And so because of that, the

967
00:50:17,519 --> 00:50:21,639
idea that Christ becomes the serpent on the staff, Moses

968
00:50:21,639 --> 00:50:24,960
already did that. Moses already took the debt these things

969
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,719
that are bringing death at the bottom of the world.

970
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,159
So you have all these slithering things that are the passion,

971
00:50:29,199 --> 00:50:31,599
that are all of these these fragmentation of the world

972
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:34,639
at the bottom that are that are stinging you and

973
00:50:34,639 --> 00:50:36,960
and and you're dying because of that. And so Moses

974
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,280
takes that like medicine, right, medicine is is made out

975
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,239
of the poison, is made out of the disease, or

976
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,239
made out of the say a cure, cure is made

977
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,519
out of the of the poison. Right, So he takes one,

978
00:50:47,599 --> 00:50:50,519
he lifts it up on the on the on the

979
00:50:51,039 --> 00:50:53,360
stick like on the he puts it up on the

980
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,880
top of the hierarchy. And if you look to that,

981
00:50:56,079 --> 00:50:59,440
then all of a sudden that ends up curing your death.

982
00:50:59,519 --> 00:51:01,519
And it's like an image of Christ. What Christ is

983
00:51:01,559 --> 00:51:03,199
going to do. Christ is going to do exactly that.

984
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,880
He's going to turn death against itself and he's going

985
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,559
to So when you look at the image of the

986
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:12,800
staff of the bishop, that's what you're getting. It's actually

987
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,880
really related to the to the to the image of Asclepias, right,

988
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,760
it is related to that in terms of the meaning

989
00:51:19,039 --> 00:51:22,039
that is you have. There's a there's a tradition according

990
00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:26,480
to which the Asclepias what he did is that he

991
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,199
cut the gorgon in half, but didn't cut in half.

992
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,159
He would take blood from the right side of the

993
00:51:32,199 --> 00:51:36,199
gorgon in order to heal people, you know, implying that

994
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,960
blood from the left side of the gorgon would be poisonous, right,

995
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,199
So you have from one side you have the raising up,

996
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,440
and then one side you have the pushing down. And

997
00:51:45,519 --> 00:51:47,519
so that's the way to kind of understand these two

998
00:51:47,559 --> 00:51:49,920
snakes on the side of the staff, which is the

999
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,639
good thief the bad thief, right, the one that goes up,

1000
00:51:52,679 --> 00:51:55,039
the one that goes down, the two possibilities of change,

1001
00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:57,760
you could say, one which is using change to bring

1002
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,519
you up towards God, and one which is manifestation of change,

1003
00:52:01,519 --> 00:52:04,159
which brings you down into death. And so it's actually

1004
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,960
very it's very much coherent with So another way was

1005
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,440
represented in the medieval art was that you would have

1006
00:52:10,519 --> 00:52:12,440
Christ on the cross kind of s shape. Then you

1007
00:52:12,519 --> 00:52:15,079
have the serpent at the bottom of the cross coming

1008
00:52:15,199 --> 00:52:18,079
up to bite him on the like coming to bite

1009
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:21,159
his heel. And so you would have the two snakes

1010
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:23,960
on the cross as being these two aspects of death,

1011
00:52:24,039 --> 00:52:26,199
one which is bringing you towards life, and one which

1012
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,519
is trying to pull you down towards towards towards death itself.

1013
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,079
And so those two serpents end up being a similar,

1014
00:52:32,639 --> 00:52:35,039
similar version of that same that same structure.

1015
00:52:35,079 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: Let's say, interesting, Yeah, what are some other maybe top

1016
00:52:44,039 --> 00:52:47,239
if you could think of a few misinterpreted symbols, like

1017
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:48,880
what are some of the things that you think most

1018
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,440
people will get really wrong or have totally you know, overlooked,

1019
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:55,280
or what what are you know if you want to.

1020
00:52:55,559 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 1: The one that I've seen online all the time is

1021
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,800
when they see an image of the pope wearing a

1022
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:04,800
cross with a skull on it, and then people freak out.

1023
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,400
They're like, he's you know, he's a Satanist because he

1024
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:11,079
has a skull on his cross, right, And so that's

1025
00:53:11,119 --> 00:53:15,679
one of the major misunderstood, uh, misunderstood symbols because that's

1026
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,960
a that's one of the oldest traditions of how to

1027
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,519
represent the crucifixion, which is that you represent Christ on

1028
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:24,000
the cross and then you represent the skull of Atom

1029
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,320
at the bottom. It's actually similar to what I said before,

1030
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,239
So you have the death of Adam at the bottom

1031
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,280
of the cross, then you have the death of Christ

1032
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,880
at the top of the cross, which is actually restoring

1033
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,840
the death of Adam, and then you see the blood

1034
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,320
of Christ going dripping down onto the skull of Atom

1035
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,760
in this like cave uh. And so often people are

1036
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,800
confused about seeing why is their skull you know, the Crucifixion,

1037
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,679
especially like if it's on a on a cross on someone,

1038
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,599
like they just see the skull at the bottom of

1039
00:53:49,599 --> 00:53:51,199
the cross and they freak out and they wonder what

1040
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:54,119
it is. But it really is, it really is representing

1041
00:53:54,199 --> 00:53:56,960
the mystery of the really the mystery of the Crucifixion,

1042
00:53:57,199 --> 00:53:58,960
which it is hard to you know, it's like we're

1043
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,320
so used to seeing Jesus on the cross that we

1044
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,400
we we just kind of dismiss it. But man, what's

1045
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,440
going on there is is very very mysterious and very

1046
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,239
strange because it is this ultimate trick played on death

1047
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,960
of kind of taking death into into God and therefore

1048
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:20,000
you know, transforming its basically the joke of of like

1049
00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:22,760
you know, the of Hades and death thinking they've got

1050
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:24,400
God because they're bringing them down to death. And then

1051
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,880
it's like bringing a candle into the darkness. Like if

1052
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,239
you bring candle into the darkness, the opposite happens, right,

1053
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,360
you don't. Darkness doesn't win, right, Darkness loses. So so

1054
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,639
that type of so let's say, what else is? What

1055
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,599
else is a big, a big misunderstanding?

1056
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 2: What about the double headed eagle? You know, this is

1057
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,000
everywhere in Orthodoxy and people, Oh, that's a Scottish rite

1058
00:54:43,039 --> 00:54:46,320
masonic thing. Well, no, no it's not. It's that existed

1059
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,480
way before there was any Scottish writer and masonry. So

1060
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,079
I don't know if people know this, but that goes

1061
00:54:50,119 --> 00:54:51,800
back to the Byzantine Empire into the.

1062
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: Well. The double headed serpent is really the two powers

1063
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,719
of Christendom. You could say it represents the represents the

1064
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,880
Church and the state. You know, usually you see them

1065
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,280
kind of together, but it also represents the in a

1066
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,239
deeper fashion. It represents the two aspects of Christ. I've

1067
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:14,039
written some articles on that too. People are interested, which

1068
00:55:14,079 --> 00:55:17,880
is that Christ contains those two powers within himself. You

1069
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:24,719
could say one is something like a torritas direct influence.

1070
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,079
You see with his right hand he's blessing, so it's

1071
00:55:27,119 --> 00:55:29,519
like a direct influence. Right It's like I have direct

1072
00:55:29,559 --> 00:55:33,039
authority over you. And then the other side is secondary

1073
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:36,880
power or like it's the written word. It's the written text.

1074
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,239
It's like a it's like an envelope around real authority.

1075
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,679
It's like the indirect indirect authority you could say, indirect power,

1076
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,079
you could say. And so that ends up being represented

1077
00:55:47,119 --> 00:55:50,239
in different ways, you know, whether it be the Church

1078
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,840
as having the direct authority and then the state having

1079
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:58,400
this more indirect more more physical power, but less authority.

1080
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,559
You could say something like that, right, So the scripture

1081
00:56:00,599 --> 00:56:03,199
has more power in the sense that you can look

1082
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,119
at it, you can analyze it, you know, you can

1083
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,679
apply it directly, but it has less authority because it's

1084
00:56:08,679 --> 00:56:13,000
not this direct influence of the logos himself. So often

1085
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,880
that's why you'll see, for example, that two headed ego.

1086
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,039
Often see them like holding the two keys of Peter

1087
00:56:18,199 --> 00:56:21,519
sometimes because those are also this idea of like these

1088
00:56:21,559 --> 00:56:24,079
two powers that are facing each other, right, the power

1089
00:56:24,119 --> 00:56:26,599
to bind and to unbind. It really is this kind

1090
00:56:26,599 --> 00:56:30,440
of duality that exists ultimately that is ultimately united in Christ.

1091
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,559
All these dualities kind of come together into Christ.

1092
00:56:32,599 --> 00:56:38,119
Speaker 2: So yeah, another, I mean, what about the eye of Providence,

1093
00:56:38,199 --> 00:56:40,199
because this one comes up all the time. People ask

1094
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:42,159
all the time, and they'll always say, well, I was

1095
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,679
I saw at church one time that had any Well,

1096
00:56:45,039 --> 00:56:49,599
even that is not again always signifying something Illuminati or Masonic.

1097
00:56:50,119 --> 00:56:52,880
It's a symbol that goes back to the ancient world

1098
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:57,000
that just signified something like one of the divine attributes

1099
00:56:57,199 --> 00:57:01,239
like omniscientz right, God sees all, God knows all. So

1100
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,480
again it's a situation of context, giving the interpretation, giving

1101
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:06,719
the meaning. Would you agree with that?

1102
00:57:07,159 --> 00:57:10,599
Speaker 1: I mean, I totally agree, you know, because this this

1103
00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:13,719
becomes silly, like you said, where I had this experience

1104
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,719
of going into a Catholic church right here in my city,

1105
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,440
you know, like it's like a you know, it's like

1106
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,159
Quebec was a rural area. You know, it's not like

1107
00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:24,039
there was no power here. And so in this like

1108
00:57:24,159 --> 00:57:28,039
rural church, we walk in and the guide is giving

1109
00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:30,159
us a tour of this. It's still a historical church,

1110
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,280
maybe like eighteenth century paintings, and so in the in

1111
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,000
one of the one of the roof arches, there's a

1112
00:57:36,199 --> 00:57:38,320
there's an eye of providence, and the guy in the

1113
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,760
tour says, oh, it means that this church was made

1114
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,440
by the Illuminati, And like, there's no way that this

1115
00:57:43,559 --> 00:57:47,360
eighteenth century rural church in Quebec was made by the Illuminati, right,

1116
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:49,800
But it's actually an image of It was seen as

1117
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,639
an image of the Trinity because it was a triangle.

1118
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,760
And then it also had the notion of like you said,

1119
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,920
omniscience or the capacity to you know, this this eye

1120
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,199
that sees all is what it's supposed to be, and so,

1121
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,000
you know, it's just like any symbolism. It I think

1122
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:08,239
it ended up being misused. And one of the problems

1123
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,239
that people have is that people don't like, for example,

1124
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:16,400
a Freemasonry. People don't understand that Freemasons took their symbolism

1125
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,480
mostly from Christians, not the other way around. And so

1126
00:58:20,039 --> 00:58:23,280
the Freemasons at the outset, you know, we don't exactly know,

1127
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,480
you know, exactly where it comes from. They say they

1128
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,599
were the cathedral builders, that they had these this knowledge

1129
00:58:28,639 --> 00:58:31,400
of architecture and this knowledge of building cathedrals, and so

1130
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,719
let's say that that's true. It means that at some

1131
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,719
point they went off the rails and started acting in

1132
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,920
different ways, but that even their own symbolism isn't necessarily evil.

1133
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,440
Maybe some of it is, especially when when when the

1134
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,119
more occult things start coming in the nineteenth century, but

1135
00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:48,119
before that it's like a lot of it is just

1136
00:58:48,199 --> 00:58:52,480
Christian symbols, and it's and so it's not necessarily evil

1137
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,519
in itself, you know. I actually, you know, I was

1138
00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:58,760
talking to this. I met just randomly some some thirty

1139
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,079
third degree Mason who is Protestant, right, and I didn't know.

1140
00:59:02,119 --> 00:59:04,239
I didn't, like, I've never really studied Masonic sembly. I'm

1141
00:59:04,239 --> 00:59:05,960
not that interested in it. But he was telling me

1142
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,400
about how they had the cut stone and the uncut stone,

1143
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,400
and they had these two aspects of their thing, and

1144
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:15,119
I was thinking, that's actually very biblical, like, like that

1145
00:59:15,239 --> 00:59:17,760
aspect of symbolism, Like I can totally understand the idea

1146
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,199
of that. You know, you see it, like the idea

1147
00:59:19,199 --> 00:59:21,360
that some alters need to be made out of uncut

1148
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,960
stone and so are kind of pure, but are also

1149
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:27,239
not worked right, so they lack refinement. So I was like, yeah,

1150
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,559
that's interesting. I don't see evil in itself now, I

1151
00:59:29,559 --> 00:59:33,159
don't know, like I you know, obviously, you know, as

1152
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:37,000
as as these kind of western esoteric branches started joining

1153
00:59:37,039 --> 00:59:40,079
with Freemasonry, then then you know, all these weird images

1154
00:59:40,119 --> 00:59:43,519
started to become or be twisted or whatever that is.

1155
00:59:43,599 --> 00:59:45,440
But I think people just have to be careful when

1156
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,599
they look at these images and understand, like I said,

1157
00:59:47,719 --> 00:59:49,800
that a lot of them come from Christianity first, and

1158
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:51,239
then we're twisted later exactly.

1159
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean. Another example often bring up is

1160
00:59:56,039 --> 00:59:58,280
there's such a thing as the Gnostic cross, and I'm

1161
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:00,719
sure people have seen this, but this is like it

1162
01:00:00,719 --> 01:00:05,079
looks like a like a like a what you would

1163
01:00:05,079 --> 01:00:07,000
put in in the sights to shoot a gun. It

1164
01:00:07,039 --> 01:00:09,119
looks like it's a circle with a cross, and it's

1165
01:00:09,159 --> 01:00:11,840
known as the Gnostic cross. And where do you think

1166
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,679
that they got that? They took it from the church's cross.

1167
01:00:14,719 --> 01:00:17,199
I mean it's just borrowing. I mean the Celtic cross

1168
01:00:17,239 --> 01:00:20,440
looks like a Gnostic cross, right. So anyway, I'm glad

1169
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,119
that we hit on that that that that stuff comes

1170
01:00:22,199 --> 01:00:27,440
up all the time. We got I don't know, I mean,

1171
01:00:27,519 --> 01:00:29,800
you're well, I'm having a great chat with you, but

1172
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:31,840
I also don't want to take too long. If you

1173
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:32,800
had other things you want to.

1174
01:00:32,719 --> 01:00:34,719
Speaker 1: Do, fine, like it as long as you wanted. I

1175
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:36,079
think it great.

1176
01:00:36,079 --> 01:00:38,599
Speaker 2: So yeah, and we do have some super chats, are

1177
01:00:38,599 --> 01:00:41,719
you Are you okay with taking okay? And remember everybody,

1178
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:43,920
when you send your super chat that it needs to

1179
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:48,000
be within the guidelines. I'm not going to read any degenerate,

1180
01:00:48,119 --> 01:00:51,519
disgusting comments, so please keep them within the bounds of

1181
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,960
you know, what's appropriate for the topic. Tonight. What about

1182
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:02,039
liturgical abuse? Uh? And I bring that up because when

1183
01:01:02,039 --> 01:01:07,199
it comes to mostly the Roman Catholic world mostly maybe

1184
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,239
I guess you could say the Protestant world to a degree,

1185
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,440
they don't really have a liturgy. Some of them have liturgy.

1186
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:18,559
But do you see how can I phrase this? We

1187
01:01:18,679 --> 01:01:22,280
both have talked you and I both in different shows podcasts.

1188
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,880
We've talked about inversion a lot and how that's it

1189
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:28,119
seems to be a pattern that we see in dark

1190
01:01:28,159 --> 01:01:31,480
spiritual forces to take things that are good. We see

1191
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:33,800
this with symbolism and invert it. Right. If you think

1192
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,639
of the pentacle or the pentagram, that's a classic symbol

1193
01:01:36,639 --> 01:01:40,239
of man, and then the inverted pentagram is like the

1194
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,719
inversion of man. It's like man pointing down, Man die, man,

1195
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:48,039
go down? Right? So do you see that in the

1196
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,039
abuses of liturgy that seemed to be really prominent in

1197
01:01:52,079 --> 01:01:54,840
the last say fifty years in different traditions and even

1198
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:56,760
in the Orthodox Church to a degree, and maybe not

1199
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,639
as bad as the Romancalthy and Protestant worlds, But is

1200
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,480
do you see that inversion and an attack on the

1201
01:02:03,559 --> 01:02:07,559
liturgy as something that is as a demonic spirit basically?

1202
01:02:07,599 --> 01:02:11,039
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, I think yeah, I think that that some

1203
01:02:11,119 --> 01:02:14,320
of these have become so egregious that they're nothing less

1204
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,199
than just just satanic. Some of these are. And I

1205
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,079
mean I'm not saying that the people who do them

1206
01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:21,840
are Satanists or anything like that, but I think they're animated.

1207
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:26,000
They're animated by a spirit of inversion. You know. One

1208
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,440
of the craziest examples, I at, you saw that that

1209
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:33,559
they in in England. In England, they're losing their minds.

1210
01:02:33,679 --> 01:02:37,400
They put up this like carnival slide in the nave.

1211
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,840
You saw this, right, and the bishop like went up there,

1212
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:41,599
did his homily and then slid.

1213
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:43,119
Speaker 2: Down this flood.

1214
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: And I was thinking, could you get like it's like snake,

1215
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,559
It's like snakes and ladders, right, He's basically like going

1216
01:02:50,599 --> 01:02:54,039
down the snake as he's in church and it's a carnival.

1217
01:02:54,119 --> 01:02:56,320
And I'm thinking, like, so, I think that a lot

1218
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,559
of these have become so egregious that they're actually they're

1219
01:02:59,559 --> 01:03:01,639
actually so some times worth paying attention to to kind

1220
01:03:01,639 --> 01:03:05,199
of understand what the upside down looks like, because you know,

1221
01:03:05,599 --> 01:03:07,719
you could have had warnings of saints, you know, a

1222
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,519
few hundred years ago about about the Antichrist are about

1223
01:03:10,559 --> 01:03:12,599
you know what you know, and it was vague, But

1224
01:03:12,679 --> 01:03:14,960
now there's nothing of it is vague because you can

1225
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,079
actually see you know, things become you know, like these

1226
01:03:18,119 --> 01:03:20,880
clown masses that are that that the that the Catholic

1227
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,960
Church not all I means that some weird Catholic churches

1228
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:28,079
are engaging in and uh, you know this also just

1229
01:03:28,119 --> 01:03:31,719
the desire to make everything as informal as possible. Yeah,

1230
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,599
and then in the liturgical space, that's also a kind

1231
01:03:34,639 --> 01:03:37,920
of breakdown of of meeting. It's just an image of this,

1232
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,159
this kind of breakdown the disco masses. I mean, there's

1233
01:03:40,199 --> 01:03:42,480
so many, there are so many that we could that

1234
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,079
we could that we could say and obvious obviously now

1235
01:03:45,559 --> 01:03:48,039
the big one that's going to take up space and

1236
01:03:48,119 --> 01:03:50,679
is already doing it in kind of liberal Enpiscopalian type

1237
01:03:50,719 --> 01:03:54,960
churches is the celebration of of of the LGBT agenda

1238
01:03:55,199 --> 01:04:01,280
as becoming let's say, like for them like an actual

1239
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,760
image of sanctity, like an image of what is holy.

1240
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:07,440
That inclusivity is that is the image of holiness itself,

1241
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:13,239
and that openness and inclusivity and variability is the very

1242
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,559
image of of of God. And so it ends up

1243
01:04:16,559 --> 01:04:21,280
being really the the upside down of what is true,

1244
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,159
which is that God is calling us towards one, calling

1245
01:04:24,199 --> 01:04:28,559
us towards transcending our our our idiosyncrasies and our divisions

1246
01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:30,880
and our tribalism. Doesn't mean that those can't exist. That

1247
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,960
is right, We do exist in particulars, but that crisis

1248
01:04:34,079 --> 01:04:36,840
calling us to move into Him as much as possible

1249
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:40,519
and move beyond these these these uh, these idiosyncrasies. But

1250
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:44,639
now they're using this kind of weird inclusivity as an

1251
01:04:44,639 --> 01:04:46,760
image of that. Like the thing that inclusivity is an

1252
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,239
image is kind of inclusivity without judgment. I don't know

1253
01:04:50,239 --> 01:04:53,840
if you have you seen the the dancing freeze of Saints.

1254
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,840
Have you ever seen this? Oh, man, you'll have. You

1255
01:04:57,920 --> 01:04:59,400
need to look at this. You have a blast. It's

1256
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:01,519
church in calcul and it's as compared. It's actually it's

1257
01:05:01,559 --> 01:05:04,039
actually saying Gregor meets the church, which is sad, but

1258
01:05:04,719 --> 01:05:07,079
it's a there have a frieze of saints up in

1259
01:05:07,239 --> 01:05:09,159
the up in the middle of the church, and it's

1260
01:05:09,159 --> 01:05:12,599
all these saints during the can can they're all dancing, uh,

1261
01:05:13,119 --> 01:05:15,480
and and they're legitimate saints in there, you know, Let's

1262
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,599
say there's Augustine and there's the same bas or whatever.

1263
01:05:17,639 --> 01:05:20,920
But there's also you know, like Eli Fitzgerald and Harvey

1264
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:24,960
Milk and and like John Coltrane and and uh and

1265
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,239
I Albert Einstein and so they're all and they're dancing

1266
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,079
during the can can and so you can really see

1267
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:33,920
this kind of just complete breakdown of hierarchy. It this

1268
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,280
complete breakdown a meaning, you know, what it means to

1269
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,320
be a saint, when it means to be holy. You know,

1270
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:40,840
it just ends up, but it ends up looking upside

1271
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,199
down because they're actually celebrating them, right, they're actually putting

1272
01:05:43,239 --> 01:05:45,679
them up in the church as images to look at,

1273
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:47,440
you know, while you're worshiping God.

1274
01:05:47,519 --> 01:05:50,559
Speaker 2: It's like, man, it reminds me when I was eighteen

1275
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,800
and I had just began reading the Bible. At the time,

1276
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,440
I didn't really know much of anything. It's kind of

1277
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,039
getting a little bit of a sense of good and

1278
01:05:59,079 --> 01:06:03,039
evil because I been just totally a wild party, degenerate

1279
01:06:03,079 --> 01:06:05,679
guy in high school. And I took a senior trip

1280
01:06:05,719 --> 01:06:07,840
to New York and we toured a bunch of big

1281
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,079
cathedrals and churches there, and I want to say, I

1282
01:06:10,079 --> 01:06:12,440
don't remember. I want to say, this was a Methodist church,

1283
01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:15,119
and I didn't know anything about the Bible at the time.

1284
01:06:15,159 --> 01:06:18,320
I just started reading like maybe the Beatitudes, you know,

1285
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,280
the Gospel of Matthew or something. And I remember we

1286
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,079
went in this I think it was a Methodist cathedral

1287
01:06:23,199 --> 01:06:30,320
and they literally had had just installed a stained glass

1288
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,760
window that had the apostles riding around in a corvette.

1289
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,840
And I'm not joking. I was like, what and so

1290
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,559
we we did, you know, the Saint John, the Divine Cathedral,

1291
01:06:41,599 --> 01:06:44,199
the big Episcopal cathedral there too, And I remember thinking

1292
01:06:44,199 --> 01:06:46,320
how weird and kind of new agey it was, and

1293
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,599
what do you mean, what do you make of the weirdness?

1294
01:06:51,639 --> 01:06:54,760
I mean, I get like the inversion in the sense

1295
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:58,039
of like the really satanic stuff, but I don't understand

1296
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,880
the weirdness. What's with the apostles in our corvette? I

1297
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:02,199
don't get it.

1298
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it has it really has to do with, uh,

1299
01:07:07,079 --> 01:07:09,199
the end. It has to do with the end. I'm

1300
01:07:09,239 --> 01:07:12,480
sorry to say. So if you if you kind of understand,

1301
01:07:12,519 --> 01:07:14,800
you know what we talked about, the idea that I

1302
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,079
talked about the medieval manuscript, you know, and how you

1303
01:07:17,079 --> 01:07:19,119
have the image in the center and then on the

1304
01:07:19,119 --> 01:07:23,440
border you'll have the ornamentation and then you also have idiosyncrasy,

1305
01:07:23,679 --> 01:07:28,239
idiosyncrasy and monstrosity. You'll have little little monsters, little little

1306
01:07:28,239 --> 01:07:30,760
weird figures in the in the borders. And if you

1307
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,519
look at the first cycle, let's say in scripture, from

1308
01:07:33,639 --> 01:07:36,199
the Fall to the flood, you get that same image. Right,

1309
01:07:36,239 --> 01:07:40,199
you have this movement down the mountain, a mountain of paradise,

1310
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,079
moving out into the into the chaos. And then what

1311
01:07:43,239 --> 01:07:47,320
happens is you have mixture, you have giants, you have monsters, basically,

1312
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,360
and so that's the weirdness. Weirdness is just a breakdown

1313
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,920
of me and so it's a breakdown of hierarchy. It's

1314
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,519
coming to the edge of an of an identity and

1315
01:07:57,599 --> 01:08:02,199
now experimenting the idiosyncrasy of of that identity. It's like,

1316
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,360
you know, you have the central, the central, the central

1317
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:07,239
image of the garden, and then at the edge of

1318
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,119
that you have the monster. Think of like the Pliny's

1319
01:08:10,159 --> 01:08:12,719
map is like that, right, you have the uenvelopes in

1320
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:14,199
the middle, and then on the edge you have all

1321
01:08:14,199 --> 01:08:17,199
these monsters racing. That's where we are. We're where that's

1322
01:08:17,199 --> 01:08:18,880
where were We're at the edge of the world with

1323
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,920
all the monsters coming out, and it's manifesting itself in

1324
01:08:22,079 --> 01:08:25,560
all kinds, like something as silly as Sesame Street, where

1325
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:28,640
all these monsters are your friends, you know, this ideal

1326
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,640
monstrosity as as I you know, the idea of like

1327
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,319
how to train your dragon, where ultimately the dragons end

1328
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:36,680
up being better than us. Right, all of this imagery,

1329
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:39,159
it's in the zeitgeist, like it's in the it's in

1330
01:08:39,239 --> 01:08:41,720
the air because we are at the end of something,

1331
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:44,319
like we're reaching the end of something. And so because

1332
01:08:44,359 --> 01:08:47,279
of that, you know, that's why the seventy genders and

1333
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,840
you know, all this breakdown of identity into idiosyncrasy. That's

1334
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,760
the image. And so the weirdness is it's like a

1335
01:08:55,159 --> 01:08:59,439
it really is like this modern pulse, like this modern

1336
01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:05,439
in like a thrust to go against the meaning, yeah,

1337
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,880
and to manifest idiosyncrasy because because we think it's cool,

1338
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:11,760
because we think it's because we think it's edgy. You know,

1339
01:09:12,159 --> 01:09:16,119
even think about that word agg.

1340
01:09:15,079 --> 01:09:16,319
Speaker 2: Over the edge into the abyss.

1341
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:18,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, and so I think that that's what

1342
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:21,479
it is. And so that's why there's this this celebration

1343
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:25,439
of weirdness as almost like a value in itself. And

1344
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,000
it has to do with the celebration of mixture, and

1345
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,039
it has to do with the celebration of vidiosyncrasy.

1346
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it makes me think of like the like

1347
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,439
like Hieronymous Bosh paintings right where you've got these like

1348
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,600
you know, weird creatures with like that are supposed to

1349
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:40,720
signify the demonic. You know, it's like a fish head

1350
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:42,960
with like a man's body and like a giant butt,

1351
01:09:43,119 --> 01:09:45,800
you know, coming out of his chest literally like like

1352
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:49,520
like butt monsters walking around and and and Bosh was

1353
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,159
doing that too, I think make your point, right, to

1354
01:09:52,239 --> 01:09:56,039
signify that the closer that you get to the abyss

1355
01:09:56,079 --> 01:09:58,079
and to the to the realm of the demonic, it

1356
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:02,399
gets into the madness, right, the madness of the demonic

1357
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:05,239
and the chaos and and things don't make sense. You know,

1358
01:10:05,279 --> 01:10:08,239
you've got talking butt creatures to be frank I.

1359
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:11,039
Speaker 1: Agridity is an image of the edge, right, That's what

1360
01:10:11,199 --> 01:10:13,199
it is. It's an image where so that's why Look,

1361
01:10:13,239 --> 01:10:15,520
if you look at the image of Saint George killing

1362
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:19,359
the dragon, the traditional dragon in orthodox iconography is always

1363
01:10:19,399 --> 01:10:22,479
a hybrid. He's always right, he's a he's a lizard

1364
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,439
with with bird wings and with with mammal feet, and

1365
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:29,119
so he's a he's a category that doesn't exist. He's

1366
01:10:29,119 --> 01:10:32,279
a he's a breakdown of categories, right, this experience of

1367
01:10:32,279 --> 01:10:35,000
the strange, you know. And so that's what it is

1368
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:37,560
like when you experience something strange, when you experience something

1369
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,720
that you don't have a category for, it's going to

1370
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,520
present itself at first as a monster to you as

1371
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:44,720
something which is a mixture of two categories.

1372
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 2: Right.

1373
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,159
Speaker 1: So you can imagine the first the first time Greeks

1374
01:10:48,319 --> 01:10:52,159
saw hippopotamus, right, they don't have a category for it.

1375
01:10:52,199 --> 01:10:54,359
So they're like, oh, it's a river horse. But it's

1376
01:10:54,359 --> 01:10:57,079
obviously not genetically a river horse. But it's because I

1377
01:10:57,119 --> 01:10:58,520
don't have a category for it. So I have to

1378
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:00,439
take I see it's in a river and it looks

1379
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:02,840
like a horse. I'm gonna give it some name because

1380
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:04,920
it just doesn't fit in my in my word.

1381
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 2: It's an only funt, mister, it's an only funt.

1382
01:11:10,359 --> 01:11:12,319
Speaker 1: So so that's what's going on, and that's where we

1383
01:11:12,359 --> 01:11:14,760
are now, Like we are in the world, like you said,

1384
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:17,760
like a great and it is. It's upside down and

1385
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,439
it's hybrid and it's inverted. You know those images you

1386
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:23,760
probably watched Monty Python and the Holy grail, right, you

1387
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,760
know that image of like the guys blowing blowing trumpets

1388
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,680
out of their butts, Like that's an actual medieval image.

1389
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,760
They didn't make that up. Like those exist in medieval manuscripts,

1390
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:36,039
and they represent that edge, that upside down where instead

1391
01:11:36,039 --> 01:11:38,039
of air coming out of your mouth and being meaningful,

1392
01:11:38,239 --> 01:11:41,439
you have air coming from accidental, air coming from behind,

1393
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:44,039
where it's uncontrolled and it's funny and it's and it

1394
01:11:44,159 --> 01:11:46,640
makes noise instead of meaning and so it's like and

1395
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,760
so that's where we are today. We have noise, accident

1396
01:11:51,079 --> 01:11:54,560
and hybridity and mixture and all of these these images

1397
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:55,279
of the edge.

1398
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 2: I remember when I was in high school, I liked

1399
01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,359
a lot of really weird music and you know, just

1400
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:03,359
being People might not know, but I was actually an

1401
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:05,640
artsy person in high school and I almost went to

1402
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:08,520
art school, and all my buddies were you know, artsy

1403
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:10,920
type guys, and I remember, you know, we sort of

1404
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:13,319
celebrated that weirdness and we thought it was cool. And

1405
01:12:14,159 --> 01:12:16,239
I remember one time when I started going to church

1406
01:12:16,279 --> 01:12:17,680
back then, it was a prosiscent church. But there was

1407
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:19,800
a guy I remember, I don't remember his name, but

1408
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,159
he was a pretty philosophically astute guy. And I was

1409
01:12:22,199 --> 01:12:25,000
just getting into a philosophy and and he was looking

1410
01:12:25,039 --> 01:12:27,680
through you know, like my CD collection or something like that,

1411
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:29,920
and he's like, oh, you got back, You've got they

1412
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:32,039
might be giants. He's like, you have a lot of

1413
01:12:32,079 --> 01:12:34,640
nonsense music in here, and I was like, what do

1414
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:37,479
you mean nonsense music? He's like, it's all postmodern, and

1415
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:41,760
I was like, I was like, But then I realized

1416
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:44,279
the more that I learned, you know, got into into philosophy,

1417
01:12:44,359 --> 01:12:46,199
later on, I thought that that guy was actually right,

1418
01:12:46,319 --> 01:12:48,399
like the music. And I'm not saying that it's always

1419
01:12:48,399 --> 01:12:51,279
wrong to listen to secular music or to enjoy you know,

1420
01:12:51,319 --> 01:12:53,319
absurdity and comedy and that kind of stuff, but I

1421
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,159
did eventually come to realize, no, he actually had a

1422
01:12:56,199 --> 01:12:59,960
point that in those kinds of musical trends, even though

1423
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:01,920
we can to a degree I think I appreciate them,

1424
01:13:02,239 --> 01:13:04,920
there is the notion of the breakdown of meaning, and

1425
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:07,640
it is postmodern music because most of those songs are

1426
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:09,960
actually intentionally absurd and meaningless.

1427
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 1: Exactly. You know, you're right, a good way to understand

1428
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:15,439
it traditionally, Like you said, it's not that it's wrong

1429
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:17,920
in itself. It's all about place. It's all about things

1430
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:21,640
being in their proper place. So traditional societies always had

1431
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,800
their carnival, right. You know, we had Marty Graw, we

1432
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:28,479
had meat fair. You know, the Jews have Poorim, which

1433
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:30,960
is even freight out of the Bible, where you have

1434
01:13:31,039 --> 01:13:34,560
a festival where meeting breaks down right and pour them.

1435
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,399
For example, the Jews dress up, they wear weird costumes,

1436
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:39,439
and it said that they have to drink and turn

1437
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:41,680
on themselves until they fall down right. So that's a

1438
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,960
great example like getting drunk, losing meaning everything kind of

1439
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,760
falling down. And so you see that in the West,

1440
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:50,319
for example, they had the Feast of Fools, which was

1441
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,319
around the New Year's where they would you know, elect

1442
01:13:54,399 --> 01:13:56,520
someone to like a child to be a bishop, or

1443
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:58,760
they would they would have a mock king and then

1444
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:00,840
everybody would would kind of that he's the king and

1445
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:02,840
it would be this upside down that. They had even

1446
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:05,880
a crazier liturgical practice in the West in the Middle Ages,

1447
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:09,199
which was the Feast of the ass they would bring

1448
01:14:09,239 --> 01:14:11,159
a donkey into the church all the way up to

1449
01:14:11,199 --> 01:14:14,159
the altar, and then at the end of the Mass,

1450
01:14:14,159 --> 01:14:17,399
instead of saying Amen, they would actually break, people would break,

1451
01:14:17,399 --> 01:14:20,439
but it was just this one time, right, And so

1452
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:23,239
it was these festivals of inversion. And then it's like

1453
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:25,880
it's that moment at the end of the world, at

1454
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:27,319
the end of the cycle, at the end of the

1455
01:14:27,399 --> 01:14:31,359
year where meaning breaks down and then there's a resurrection

1456
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:33,520
and then things kind of come back up. And so

1457
01:14:34,039 --> 01:14:35,840
there has always been a there was always been a

1458
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:37,720
little bit of room for that. Like if you think about,

1459
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:42,359
like in the Orthodox tradition, for example, the meat fair

1460
01:14:43,239 --> 01:14:46,439
the day before the carnival. That's what carnival means, right,

1461
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:49,319
Carnival means meat fair. Meatfair is on the same day

1462
01:14:49,319 --> 01:14:51,520
as the last judgment. We celebrate the lad judgment and

1463
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:53,560
meet fair on the same day, which has to do

1464
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:56,279
with this idea of the end. Right, it's like the end,

1465
01:14:56,359 --> 01:14:59,199
the breakdown of meeting, then the judgment, and then the

1466
01:14:59,239 --> 01:15:01,720
world starts. It's up again, you could say. And so

1467
01:15:02,079 --> 01:15:04,319
that's the pattern everything. So now you can understand it

1468
01:15:04,359 --> 01:15:07,560
that we're basically in a NonStop carnival, Like our whole

1469
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,399
world is just a carnival that's been going on for like,

1470
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:12,439
you know, since World War two, just be kind of

1471
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:15,680
increasing since World War two. It's like massive carnival. Uh

1472
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:19,439
and and it's getting insane. It's getting more and more

1473
01:15:19,439 --> 01:15:22,560
insane and more and more apparent that it's a it's

1474
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:24,800
a kind of a crazy carnival, and then it turns

1475
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,560
into like a you know, like those like horror carnivals.

1476
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,479
Like that's what it's becoming, right, this kind of imagery

1477
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:33,199
of the horror carnival when you all where it all

1478
01:15:33,239 --> 01:15:36,039
goes wrong and then the kind of zombie clowns come

1479
01:15:36,039 --> 01:15:39,119
out to devour us all. You know. That's that's pretty

1480
01:15:39,199 --> 01:15:39,920
much where we are.

1481
01:15:40,119 --> 01:15:42,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what you're saying is basically, there's a time

1482
01:15:42,359 --> 01:15:44,720
and a place for when you're gonna release your mumble

1483
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:47,840
rap CD. Right, that's what that's right, there's a place

1484
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:50,479
for mumble rap, and it's a certain year, a.

1485
01:15:50,359 --> 01:15:54,159
Speaker 1: Certain once once a year, and then we then we

1486
01:15:54,279 --> 01:15:57,199
go back to use it. But now it's non stop mumbling.

1487
01:15:57,399 --> 01:15:57,600
Speaker 2: You know.

1488
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,560
Speaker 1: It's been like that since the nineteen sixties at least.

1489
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:07,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I don't spend a whole lot of

1490
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:13,399
time in the notion of the prophetic or in the

1491
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:15,600
sense of the like when the saints have visions in

1492
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:16,880
this kind of So I'm not saying there's not a

1493
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:18,960
place for it. It's just that we don't talk about

1494
01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:21,439
that a lot here because it's very speculative. But one

1495
01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:24,640
of the visions of the saints that did strike me

1496
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:28,520
as pretty prophetic over the years was the dream that

1497
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:33,399
Saint John Across had had where he saw this what

1498
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,920
sounds like a clown mass. And it's amazing because this is,

1499
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:39,560
you know, eighteen eighties nineties when he had this vision,

1500
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:42,199
so far, it was even before you know, the socialists

1501
01:16:42,239 --> 01:16:45,479
in Russia, it was before you know, the liturgical revolution

1502
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:47,720
about it in two and he talks about people dancing

1503
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:49,880
around the altar. It sounds like a liturgical dance. You

1504
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:53,119
know that this kind of weird stuff. Have you ever

1505
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:55,920
looked at that kind of of an analysis or.

1506
01:16:56,119 --> 01:16:58,359
Speaker 1: Well, I've never heard of that vision, So so I'm

1507
01:16:58,359 --> 01:17:03,199
pretty impressed by he said he saw like a clown mass.

1508
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 2: Right literally. I mean, some people will say the vision

1509
01:17:05,039 --> 01:17:09,199
is just predicting, like the Bolshevik or the socialist revolutions

1510
01:17:09,239 --> 01:17:12,720
in Russia, but it actually sounds it sounds like it

1511
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:14,840
does connostantly, but it sounds like more than that. It

1512
01:17:14,920 --> 01:17:17,560
sounds like because he doesn't say that the enemies of

1513
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:19,720
the church, like coming to the church and they defile

1514
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:24,840
the church. He says, the church adopts, Yeah, this liturgical

1515
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,199
dance clown and he says, they're painted like clowns and

1516
01:17:27,239 --> 01:17:31,039
they're doing that. They're doing a dance liturgy. That's amazing.

1517
01:17:31,279 --> 01:17:32,279
That that's pretty amazing.

1518
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:34,720
Speaker 1: And so the best way that for me to kind

1519
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:37,680
of understand it, it's it's also like I always I'm

1520
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:40,199
always careful, Like I i'd like to tell people that

1521
01:17:40,239 --> 01:17:42,319
we're at the end of something. I'm not saying it's

1522
01:17:42,359 --> 01:17:43,560
like the end of the world necessarily.

1523
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1524
01:17:44,079 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: Only God knows, but I think that we can recognize

1525
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:49,560
the end of patterns and what they look like like

1526
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:53,159
the edge of the world has an objective reality to it.

1527
01:17:53,159 --> 01:17:56,000
It looks like something and and and it looks like

1528
01:17:56,039 --> 01:17:57,960
a breakdown of meeting, looks all the things, the carnival,

1529
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:00,159
all the things we're talking about, and so you can

1530
01:18:00,199 --> 01:18:02,960
see like for example, like in Weimar, for example, that's

1531
01:18:03,039 --> 01:18:05,920
what happened, Like Weimar was a version of that moved

1532
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:09,000
into this kind of chaotic, this chaotic space, and then

1533
01:18:09,319 --> 01:18:12,199
it went too far and then it brought a beast.

1534
01:18:12,239 --> 01:18:14,079
Let's say it brought about a beast. That's like you

1535
01:18:14,079 --> 01:18:16,520
could say something like the beast killed the whore, right rule,

1536
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:18,720
the horror was riding the beast, and then at some

1537
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,359
point the beast kills the whore and the beast takes over.

1538
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,039
And so you can kind of see that that, Like

1539
01:18:24,279 --> 01:18:26,800
you get a sense that that's what's going on now,

1540
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:28,880
Like you get a sense that we're at the end

1541
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:31,920
of the carnival and the beast is coming to devour

1542
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,880
the horror, and we have these systems of control which

1543
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,760
are looming in our face. Uh, and you know, this

1544
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:40,239
system of identification and control which are kind of looming

1545
01:18:40,239 --> 01:18:42,920
on us. And look like this moment which is described

1546
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:46,199
in Revelation as this flip between the moment of the

1547
01:18:46,279 --> 01:18:49,199
horror and the beast. And so I think that these patterns,

1548
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:51,800
like I think these are the patterns of reality and

1549
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:55,000
so and so I think they have little manifestations and

1550
01:18:55,039 --> 01:18:58,359
we can recognize them as they as they happen and

1551
01:18:58,399 --> 01:19:00,479
without and you don't have to say, like, okay, at

1552
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:02,159
the end denies the end of the world. Everything is

1553
01:19:02,319 --> 01:19:04,239
like you know, Christ is returning tomorrow, Like I don't

1554
01:19:04,279 --> 01:19:06,439
know any of that, but I do know, like and

1555
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:10,359
recognize that moment, let's say that moment where the beast

1556
01:19:10,399 --> 01:19:12,479
is about to kill the horror. I can see it coming,

1557
01:19:12,520 --> 01:19:14,359
and it's like it's coming very fast.

1558
01:19:16,079 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 2: A little bit off topic, but I just remember that

1559
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,560
I wanted to mention this, maybe about twenty minutes ago,

1560
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:22,640
when we were talking about sort of the cycles of

1561
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:26,399
birth and death and the liturgical cycle, A movie comes

1562
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:28,840
to mind. I don't know if you've seen it. Did

1563
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:31,079
you ever, by chance see the original Wickerman?

1564
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:33,399
Speaker 1: No? I didn't see that.

1565
01:19:34,279 --> 01:19:38,119
Speaker 2: Now, it is a pretty relatively intense horror movie, so

1566
01:19:38,159 --> 01:19:40,439
I'm not I don't typically recommend it. Everybody go out

1567
01:19:40,439 --> 01:19:42,880
watch a bunch horror movies. However, this one is interesting

1568
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:47,640
because you have this character who is the police chief

1569
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:50,039
who represents law and order, and he's actually a Christian,

1570
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:53,560
and he is tasked with going to this island off

1571
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,079
the coast of Scotland somewhere, and it's like this island

1572
01:19:56,079 --> 01:19:58,920
that's kind of removed from the rest of civilization and

1573
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:01,680
they're doing their own thing there. And as I won't

1574
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:04,479
spoil the movie, but as it turns out, it's essentially

1575
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:07,960
they're doing a kind of human cult sacrifice there and

1576
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,960
they've kept the old ways of the old pagan religion.

1577
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:13,680
But it's just odd that because they have this notion

1578
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:17,600
that we owe a sacrifice, we owe this, this debt,

1579
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:20,239
this sacrifice to the earth. We have to pay Mother

1580
01:20:20,319 --> 01:20:24,039
Earth the blood or else we won't get the harvest. Basically. Yeah,

1581
01:20:24,079 --> 01:20:27,760
and they also have this weird it's like old English

1582
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:33,199
folk traditions and Scottish folk traditions that include all these

1583
01:20:33,279 --> 01:20:35,960
characters I've never even heard before, like John Barleycorn have

1584
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:37,920
you heard of this this guy? So this is this

1585
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,279
weird idea that you make a little bread man and

1586
01:20:40,319 --> 01:20:42,800
the bread man is like, he's a he's a a

1587
01:20:43,039 --> 01:20:45,199
if you can't do a human sacrifice, he's the best

1588
01:20:45,199 --> 01:20:48,119
thing that you do when you don't have a human sacrifice.

1589
01:20:48,119 --> 01:20:51,960
And he bake of this little bread man, you eat

1590
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:54,239
the right. So it's just it's odd to me because

1591
01:20:54,239 --> 01:20:57,520
even in this goofy pagan you know, horror movie, it's

1592
01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:00,319
a famous horror movie. But by the way, if you're

1593
01:21:00,399 --> 01:21:03,760
a good laugh, watch the Nicholas Cage remake of it.

1594
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:06,319
It's it's Nicholas Cage just goes.

1595
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:08,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was like, are we gonna have a conversation

1596
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:10,479
where Nicolas Cage isn't even mentioned once.

1597
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:14,119
Speaker 2: I guess never know that this is all I talk about.

1598
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:16,760
I can't even get away from it. Like last night,

1599
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:18,479
I was on a guy's podcast and we were and

1600
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:20,720
then sure enough, when you're gonna do the Nicholas Cage

1601
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:23,760
and person do I have to do it every time

1602
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:27,039
I'm on somebody's park anyway, But I just want to

1603
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:30,840
what do you think about maybe that kind of a thing, Like,

1604
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:33,640
isn't interesting that even in sort of paying religions, we

1605
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:36,000
have this notion that we we seem to sort of

1606
01:21:36,279 --> 01:21:39,720
even if they don't have a direct personal knowledge of God,

1607
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:42,920
there's like this implicit sense that we kind of owe

1608
01:21:43,039 --> 01:21:45,479
something to something out there. We gotta we have to

1609
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,199
pay this thing. And I'm not trying to reduce Christianity

1610
01:21:48,199 --> 01:21:51,439
to a payment debt model of personism, but you get

1611
01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:53,279
what I'm saying. And there's society that we have to

1612
01:21:53,279 --> 01:21:55,039
partake of this thing, we have to eat it, right,

1613
01:21:55,079 --> 01:21:55,760
this kind of thing.

1614
01:21:56,239 --> 01:21:58,039
Speaker 1: No, I think you're right. I think that you know,

1615
01:21:59,159 --> 01:22:02,960
I think that sacri is the let's say the world

1616
01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:06,439
is built on sacrifice. You know, the Lamb was slain

1617
01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:08,439
before the foundation of the world. It's something that's hard

1618
01:22:08,479 --> 01:22:11,640
to understand because we tend to understand sacrifice is just

1619
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:14,279
a consequence of sin and all that. But I think

1620
01:22:14,319 --> 01:22:18,439
there's a deeper element according to which for reality to exist.

1621
01:22:19,159 --> 01:22:21,880
That we talked about this problem of multiplicity, right and

1622
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:24,319
so and so this is a real problem. Like in

1623
01:22:24,399 --> 01:22:27,600
order for let's say, a team to exist. Let's say

1624
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:29,920
if you wanted playing soccer, in order for a team

1625
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,000
to exist, all the players in that team have to

1626
01:22:32,079 --> 01:22:36,560
sacrifice some idiosyncrasy of themselves in order to participate in

1627
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:36,920
the team.

1628
01:22:37,159 --> 01:22:37,279
Speaker 2: Right.

1629
01:22:37,279 --> 01:22:39,199
Speaker 1: They have to stop thinking about the girlfriend, they have

1630
01:22:39,279 --> 01:22:41,439
to stop you know, they have to stop doing other

1631
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:45,039
things in order to participate. So unity of a group

1632
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:48,520
always involves sacrifice. This is a this is a necessary

1633
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:51,720
aspect of it. And I think that it's also normal

1634
01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:55,039
that that would become ritualized to a certain extent, that

1635
01:22:55,039 --> 01:22:57,640
that would become that would ultimately become ritualized. I think

1636
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:00,239
Renra is kind of right on. I think some of

1637
01:23:00,279 --> 01:23:02,840
the things that he talks about in terms of memetic

1638
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:07,520
desire and this the problem of being together and then

1639
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:09,760
and then also wanting what other people want, and then

1640
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:12,760
this whole scapegoad mechanism that the kind of that sets

1641
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,840
itself up. So I think that this is something which

1642
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:17,680
is just like you said, it's inherent to being human

1643
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:20,680
and to being intelligent and to having and to seeing

1644
01:23:21,399 --> 01:23:24,880
how these things come together and how there's a need

1645
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:29,439
to to compress and to sacrifice things and uh. And

1646
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:33,560
then ultimately that leads to to Christ as the final

1647
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:36,960
solution to that and as a Christian as a self sacrifice. Right,

1648
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:39,239
that's what ends up being the ultimate solution to the

1649
01:23:39,239 --> 01:23:42,239
problem of sacrifice, is that you don't sacrifice others, you

1650
01:23:42,279 --> 01:23:45,560
sacrifice yourself. That's how you solve this problem. But as

1651
01:23:45,680 --> 01:23:50,119
Christianity breaks down, sacrifice is gonna come back. There's no

1652
01:23:50,199 --> 01:23:52,239
way around it. You know, there's no way around it,

1653
01:23:52,239 --> 01:23:55,439
and it's gonna It can happen informally like like things

1654
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:59,520
things like abortion. Like abortion is an obvious human sacrifice

1655
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:02,119
because that's what it is. It's like someone says, I

1656
01:24:02,159 --> 01:24:05,199
want to have a certain life and here's this and

1657
01:24:05,239 --> 01:24:08,119
I'm gonna sacrifice my child to have that life. It's

1658
01:24:08,119 --> 01:24:10,159
just a it's just a basic trade off of what

1659
01:24:10,199 --> 01:24:13,760
a human sacrifice is. It's not it's not ritualized, but

1660
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:17,600
it nonetheless participates in the same pattern as ritual sacrifice,

1661
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:20,880
and so it seems inevitable that that these types of

1662
01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:24,880
images will will appear just more and more. You know,

1663
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:28,520
Like the whole George Floyd thing was really about that.

1664
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:32,600
Like it was all about a weird, a weird mimetic

1665
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:37,199
sacrifice and and and like uh, watching someone die, you know,

1666
01:24:37,319 --> 01:24:39,279
killed by an authority and then having like a weird

1667
01:24:39,319 --> 01:24:42,680
ecstatic communion you know after that. It's very strange. It was.

1668
01:24:42,720 --> 01:24:46,319
It was a very strained religious influx of kind of

1669
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:51,319
misunderstood religious religious patterns. But that's gonna happen more and more.

1670
01:24:51,399 --> 01:24:54,359
Right as Christianity wanes. People think they're just gonna hold

1671
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:57,560
on to their nice little Christian morality and uh and

1672
01:24:57,560 --> 01:24:59,520
and that you know, without Christianity, we're still gonna be

1673
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,479
nice and and have you know, the Sermon on the Mound.

1674
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:04,479
But that's not that's not what's going to happen, you know.

1675
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:06,239
Pagan is it going to come flooding back.

1676
01:25:06,439 --> 01:25:10,720
Speaker 2: Paganism will fill the void exactly, all right, So let's

1677
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:13,000
get to some of these super chats. Remember, guys, Uh,

1678
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:18,279
if you would keep them in you know, civil and clean, uh,

1679
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:20,960
pallunteer for five dollars. Now, the way we usually do

1680
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:25,079
it here, Jonathan is that I let the guests reply

1681
01:25:25,199 --> 01:25:27,399
and then I'll give a comment. So most of the

1682
01:25:27,479 --> 01:25:30,079
questions are are probably going to be for you, volunteer

1683
01:25:30,199 --> 01:25:32,800
five dollars. Can you comment on the idea that Christ

1684
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:37,359
embodies reconciliation of opposites? For example, we read of Christ

1685
01:25:37,399 --> 01:25:41,159
as king and outcast, victim and victor critic and fulfillment

1686
01:25:41,159 --> 01:25:44,000
of the law. What is the orthodox understanding of this

1687
01:25:44,119 --> 01:25:46,399
pattern if we can trust it or excuse me, compare

1688
01:25:46,399 --> 01:25:47,039
it to Jung.

1689
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:50,560
Speaker 1: I don't know much. People think that I know a

1690
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:52,840
lot about Jung, but I don't. I'd be interesting. I find

1691
01:25:52,880 --> 01:25:56,000
Young very uninteresting. Uh, But I think that definitely that's

1692
01:25:56,039 --> 01:25:58,600
what Christ is doing. And you see, you see that

1693
01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:01,920
he he's really you know, Sam Maxwis talks about Man

1694
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:05,640
as the as the laboratory, the mediator of extremes, you

1695
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:09,279
could say. But then that culminates into Christ. And so

1696
01:26:09,359 --> 01:26:12,880
if you read his story, it's crazy, like there's so

1697
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:17,319
many there's so much reconciliation happened in his story. And

1698
01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:20,119
it's also it also it's funny because scholars struggle to

1699
01:26:20,199 --> 01:26:22,560
kind of classify his story because they're like, how does

1700
01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:24,800
this work? You know, he's a he's a shepherd, but

1701
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,720
he's also you know, uh, he's he's also a farmer,

1702
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,439
like in terms of so it's like Cain and Abel,

1703
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,600
he's a you know, he he's a he says, they say,

1704
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:35,479
he's a priest, but he's also a king, and then

1705
01:26:35,479 --> 01:26:38,680
he's also like a technician, like a carpenter's son, and

1706
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,359
then he's also So it's like he's just all these

1707
01:26:41,399 --> 01:26:45,000
things kind of brought in together into into one person.

1708
01:26:45,399 --> 01:26:48,239
And so I think that that's really what it's an

1709
01:26:48,239 --> 01:26:51,600
image of what it's an image of of what it

1710
01:26:51,680 --> 01:26:54,439
is to be called into God. That is, even in yourself.

1711
01:26:54,439 --> 01:26:56,680
That's what you end up having to do, is that

1712
01:26:57,119 --> 01:27:00,319
you know your you and yourself have these opposite that

1713
01:27:00,319 --> 01:27:04,079
are pulling you apart. Everybody experiences it, and it's experienced

1714
01:27:04,119 --> 01:27:06,079
as the passions you can hate and love somebody at

1715
01:27:06,079 --> 01:27:07,800
the same time. It's like, what is going on being

1716
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:10,800
ripped apart by this? And and that's what Christ is

1717
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:13,319
kind of calling us to do, is to bring all

1718
01:27:13,319 --> 01:27:17,760
this multiplicity into unity. It doesn't deny the duality, and

1719
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:20,920
it doesn't deny the multiplicity, but it is nonetheless, it

1720
01:27:21,039 --> 01:27:24,239
kind of it ends up being more like a yeah,

1721
01:27:24,279 --> 01:27:26,159
like a feast. You know, all these images that Christ

1722
01:27:26,239 --> 01:27:29,760
uses like this is joined together of all these the

1723
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:32,520
this multiplicity, the band of apostles that are joined together

1724
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:35,039
in the boat or you know at the you know, uh,

1725
01:27:35,119 --> 01:27:37,800
when you see at the ascension, this band of apostles

1726
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:40,880
or pentecost. That's what we're called to do. And I

1727
01:27:41,199 --> 01:27:43,399
think that we need to not shy away from that

1728
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:47,760
understanding because you'll struggle to understand Christ's story if you

1729
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:50,600
don't want to see him as reconciling everything in himself.

1730
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:54,279
Because like I said, for modern literary critics, they just

1731
01:27:54,319 --> 01:27:58,079
see it as this weird, chaotic, like broken story. But

1732
01:27:58,119 --> 01:28:00,840
it's like, no, it's not. It's actually winning together all

1733
01:28:00,880 --> 01:28:01,840
the stories into one.

1734
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. One confusion too from a philosophical perspective that people

1735
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:10,279
who are I'm not talking about you, I'm saying people

1736
01:28:10,319 --> 01:28:14,600
who ask this question perhaps the questioner is that they

1737
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:19,800
will confuse the idea of the opposites in the sense

1738
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:23,960
of metaphysical or existent opposites. For example, good and evil

1739
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:28,159
are opposites, So in that sense, Christ doesn't reconcile good

1740
01:28:28,199 --> 01:28:32,039
and evil, because evil is not a thing to be reconciled.

1741
01:28:32,079 --> 01:28:35,479
To have a kind of unification requires that both things

1742
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:39,600
have some notion of ontology being existence. Evil doesn't have

1743
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:42,760
being evil as a privation of being in both Neoplatonism

1744
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:46,000
and in Christianity. So there's no sense in which Jesus

1745
01:28:46,079 --> 01:28:48,800
like makes good and evil come together. Right, that would

1746
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:51,159
be like Charles Manson theology. Okay, we're not doing Charles

1747
01:28:51,159 --> 01:28:54,560
Manson theology. And for I mean and for Carl Young,

1748
01:28:55,279 --> 01:28:59,319
you know Young as a kind of Platonist or as

1749
01:28:59,359 --> 01:29:03,960
a kind of gnostic. Ultimately, Carl Jung believes that that

1750
01:29:04,119 --> 01:29:08,279
evil and the opposite of evil actually have a real existence.

1751
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:10,680
He has an essay called aon where he says that

1752
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:13,479
Jesus and Satan are really just flip sides of the

1753
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:16,640
same coin. So I would just say that it's two

1754
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:19,720
different notions of what it means to reconcile opposites. So

1755
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:22,640
what Jesus reconciles According to Saint Maximus, I think it's

1756
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:26,479
ambigu ten and mbigua forty one or two. He says

1757
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:29,960
that Jesus gathers together all of the things that the

1758
01:29:30,039 --> 01:29:34,520
fall kind of split and fractured into himself. That's not evil.

1759
01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:37,199
It's the things that have being that are split and

1760
01:29:37,239 --> 01:29:40,720
fractured against each other. So he takes you versus gentile,

1761
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:44,520
fractured and split, brings them back. That's what it's talking about, too,

1762
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:48,199
quote reconcile opposites as well as the things that Jonathan

1763
01:29:48,239 --> 01:29:52,000
talked about, right like these these sort of different types

1764
01:29:52,399 --> 01:29:55,920
of roles in Christ's life as humble poverty, you know,

1765
01:29:56,439 --> 01:30:01,920
carpenter versus you know, royal. Okay, so yes, he reconciles

1766
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:06,520
those things. Eric, Wow, a hundred bucks. Eric, And as

1767
01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:08,720
we know, I will give Jonathan a portion of these

1768
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:11,760
super chats. I give the guess a portion. John He says,

1769
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:15,119
thank you, Jonathan and Jay. You guys are both pointing

1770
01:30:15,159 --> 01:30:20,760
people to the light exactly. Uh pallunteer five dollars with

1771
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:23,760
the rollout of Okay, so I'm gonna have to talk

1772
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:25,520
and code because you guys know, we can't talk about

1773
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:27,359
all this stuff in here. So with the rollout of

1774
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:31,039
tech things that are coming, are we beginning to enter

1775
01:30:31,119 --> 01:30:36,079
into a sort of global order or a six y

1776
01:30:36,119 --> 01:30:41,439
sixty six type of system as we see in Revelation.

1777
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:43,640
So I think he's asking, is this something in revelation?

1778
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:46,279
I would say, well, I'm gonna let Jonathan answer first.

1779
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:48,199
Dum' that's his question.

1780
01:30:48,359 --> 01:30:51,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think so. I think that the

1781
01:30:51,239 --> 01:30:53,640
furtherm like, I've been very cautious about talking about this.

1782
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:55,439
If you go on my channel, you'll find I did

1783
01:30:56,119 --> 01:30:58,920
a video called The Mark of Kin recently when which

1784
01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:01,760
starts to address this, and I've got a video coming

1785
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:04,239
up called The Mark of the Beast, which I'm hesitating

1786
01:31:04,239 --> 01:31:05,920
to put out just because I don't want to put

1787
01:31:06,039 --> 01:31:08,880
pour all on the fire or anything. But there is

1788
01:31:08,920 --> 01:31:13,479
a sense in which the idea of the idea of identification,

1789
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:16,399
just the idea of of of identification as a means

1790
01:31:16,399 --> 01:31:20,600
to participate in society, is moving us towards a serious problem,

1791
01:31:21,039 --> 01:31:24,000
you know, in terms of this six six six symbolism,

1792
01:31:24,279 --> 01:31:26,920
the idea of accounting for everything. You know, I talked

1793
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:28,800
I did a video on six sixty six, and I

1794
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:31,720
talked about this that six x six symbolism seems to

1795
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:34,720
be about perfection, actually seems to be about the idea

1796
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:37,920
of trying to account for for for all things. And

1797
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:39,840
it's like it's actually like a perfect number in the

1798
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:42,239
in the bad sense that it's it's it tries to

1799
01:31:42,279 --> 01:31:45,359
be all inclusive, and that seems to be what's what's

1800
01:31:45,399 --> 01:31:48,119
going on. You can see six six six symbolism in

1801
01:31:48,159 --> 01:31:51,560
the desire to include all these all these freak identities,

1802
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:54,000
to name them right, to actually name them, and to

1803
01:31:54,119 --> 01:31:56,960
make them part of a system. And then ultimately that

1804
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:01,560
comes to this problem of of tracking and identification as

1805
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,760
means to participate in the world. So it's like it's

1806
01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:07,439
a desire to have perfect control over things. And I

1807
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:10,199
think that we're definitely seeing that, whether it's thus six

1808
01:32:10,279 --> 01:32:13,359
sixty six, you know that's described in scripture, it's participating

1809
01:32:13,359 --> 01:32:15,319
in that pattern for sure, and it's something we need

1810
01:32:15,359 --> 01:32:17,000
to be very attended to and cautious about.

1811
01:32:17,119 --> 01:32:22,560
Speaker 2: I would agree. Uh, Jay Broad ten dollars, thank you

1812
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:25,600
both for your work in the Church. Fathers. We sometimes

1813
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:31,680
see the phrase nature as scripture or nature as a

1814
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:34,640
witness to the Creator. Would you care to comment on

1815
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:37,800
that and the patrictic view of creation and also would

1816
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:40,119
you suggest any books on this topic.

1817
01:32:41,199 --> 01:32:46,520
Speaker 1: Glory to God, Yeah, for sure, I think I mean

1818
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:49,880
although the you know, creation sings things to the Creator

1819
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:52,800
and all of creation is full of His glory, and

1820
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:56,800
it's it's actually dependent on us too in our own

1821
01:32:56,880 --> 01:32:59,840
process of sanctification to be able to perceive it. And

1822
01:33:00,039 --> 01:33:02,960
so for sure it's somewhat veiled for us because we

1823
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:05,640
are because we're distracted, because we're sinners, because we're all

1824
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:08,399
these things. But if you read, if you read the

1825
01:33:08,399 --> 01:33:10,880
testimony of the saints, and you read stories of some

1826
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,960
of the saints that reach theosis, you really get a

1827
01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:16,199
sense in which you know they see the world as

1828
01:33:16,319 --> 01:33:20,720
as as bright, as blowing, as just as a theophany basically.

1829
01:33:21,279 --> 01:33:24,039
And so I think that that's definitely not only possible,

1830
01:33:24,079 --> 01:33:26,800
but that's ultimately one of the things we're supposed to

1831
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:27,479
be aiming towards.

1832
01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:32,119
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. Specifically to the guy that asked, I would say,

1833
01:33:33,159 --> 01:33:35,760
if you're looking for introduction to Saint Maximus, this little

1834
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:38,760
blue book from Saint Vladimir's is what I would recommend.

1835
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:43,720
The specific Ambiguou is Ambigua ten that goes into a

1836
01:33:43,760 --> 01:33:46,880
lot of detail about how he sees creation manifesting the

1837
01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:50,840
logie uh. And then there is a good book that

1838
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:53,840
goes into the philosophy of the Cappadocians by Yarislav Pelicon.

1839
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:59,720
It's called Christianity and Classical thinking the metamorphosis of natural theology,

1840
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:02,119
but by Pelicon, which is really good on how the

1841
01:34:02,239 --> 01:34:06,760
Cappadocians viewed quote the theology of nature or natural theology.

1842
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:10,039
And then doctor Bradshaw just put out this book which

1843
01:34:10,079 --> 01:34:12,640
I'm not done with but working through. If you're looking

1844
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:19,239
for an inter dialogue between some Roman Catholics and Orthodox

1845
01:34:19,319 --> 01:34:24,159
theologians on natural theology, So thank you for that, Jay Broad.

1846
01:34:24,279 --> 01:34:27,520
Josh Anderson for five dollars. I love that I'm seeing this. Well,

1847
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,279
we love you too, Josh, and we love that you're

1848
01:34:29,319 --> 01:34:34,319
seeing this and that you love us. We love that

1849
01:34:34,359 --> 01:34:37,359
you love us, and we love you. Joan Anon. Five dollars,

1850
01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:41,760
thank you, John, and no, he says silence, he says

1851
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:45,479
nothing awesome, frage one dollar. Jay. I'm a fan. I trust,

1852
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:48,199
I'm a trusted member in your discord Server. I've been

1853
01:34:48,199 --> 01:34:50,760
in the server for a year and I strive to

1854
01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:54,359
be to be a dire court policeman. For those that

1855
01:34:54,439 --> 01:34:58,079
don't know, we have instituted these new sort of police

1856
01:34:58,119 --> 01:35:02,159
officers due to some scandals that we've had in our discord.

1857
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:06,880
Please keep making good videos and I will add more

1858
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:09,720
donations well thank you for that, osiphrage osif rage for

1859
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:13,840
five dollars. Jay. I heard you say that statuary was

1860
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:17,079
banned in the Seventh Ecumenical Council. I don't remember saying that.

1861
01:35:17,159 --> 01:35:22,000
I remember saying that there were bans on quote, pagan art,

1862
01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:25,039
but I don't think it was intended to be this

1863
01:35:25,560 --> 01:35:28,319
across the board banning of all statues. I mean Orthodox

1864
01:35:28,399 --> 01:35:31,359
churches at times, I've had statuary, although I don't think

1865
01:35:31,359 --> 01:35:34,760
they're typically you know, like in the sanctuary. They might be,

1866
01:35:34,920 --> 01:35:38,560
but I don't I don't recall saying that the Seventh

1867
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,960
Council specifically mentioned statuary.

1868
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:44,680
Speaker 1: If you wanted to know where that comes from. In

1869
01:35:44,840 --> 01:35:48,520
the in the Ecamenical Council, it doesn't ban statuary, but

1870
01:35:48,680 --> 01:35:52,039
it comes from the rudder, Yeah, in the rudder. He

1871
01:35:52,039 --> 01:35:57,079
He interprets the canon of the Seventh Decamentical Council as

1872
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:03,560
saying that the image represents something else whereas a statue,

1873
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:07,239
because it's three dimensional, it's the thing in itself, and

1874
01:36:07,319 --> 01:36:09,680
so I don't know, like I find I find that

1875
01:36:09,720 --> 01:36:15,239
type of argumentation a little difficult. But in reality, statuary

1876
01:36:16,079 --> 01:36:18,560
never took on in the Orthodox tradition. It's just not

1877
01:36:19,079 --> 01:36:21,399
just not a part of the tradition, and so there's

1878
01:36:21,439 --> 01:36:24,560
no reason to go against the tradition, right, there's no

1879
01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:27,199
reason to innovate. To innovate, we just you know, once

1880
01:36:27,239 --> 01:36:29,760
in a while, there are idiosyncratic statues which have appeared,

1881
01:36:29,760 --> 01:36:33,520
it ain't even been venerated in the church, and we

1882
01:36:33,560 --> 01:36:35,520
can just let them be, and it's fine, we don't.

1883
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:38,000
But we also don't have to make a church full

1884
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:39,800
of statues. It would just be silly because it's just

1885
01:36:39,880 --> 01:36:42,319
not just not the way that the church ended up

1886
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:45,800
manifesting it. And the difficulty with statues that you also

1887
01:36:45,840 --> 01:36:48,640
often have is that because of this the structure that

1888
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:50,960
I talked about, like because the icon, let's say the

1889
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:55,000
card icon, like two dimensional or a painted or mosaic icon,

1890
01:36:55,359 --> 01:36:58,119
you can have this whole pattern of the top of

1891
01:36:58,119 --> 01:37:00,720
the image with Heaven and the bottom of the with Earth,

1892
01:37:00,920 --> 01:37:03,279
and you can kind of lay out the image together

1893
01:37:03,359 --> 01:37:05,920
with all these elements coming, you know, kind of relating

1894
01:37:05,960 --> 01:37:08,720
to each other, whereas it's harder to do that with statuary.

1895
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:10,880
You'd almost have to create like a diorama with like

1896
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:14,199
all these statues. And when you see a statue from behind,

1897
01:37:14,239 --> 01:37:16,840
it's weird because you're not encountering the saints. So there's

1898
01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:19,680
all these problems in terms of the way that we

1899
01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:22,960
treat icons and the way that we venerate them and statuary.

1900
01:37:23,039 --> 01:37:26,159
So it's not I've made statues for Catholic patrons, like

1901
01:37:26,199 --> 01:37:29,039
I've accepted to do that, But if an Orthodox person

1902
01:37:29,079 --> 01:37:32,119
asked me to make a statue, I'd ask a lot

1903
01:37:32,119 --> 01:37:34,479
of questions, Like I'd ask a lot of questions before

1904
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:36,039
I'd said yeah. They're like why do you want this?

1905
01:37:36,159 --> 01:37:38,880
Like what are you're trying to accomplish, Like what's the

1906
01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:39,359
point here?

1907
01:37:40,399 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 2: So there's by the way, there's also nuance on the

1908
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:48,399
seventha Medical Council because, for example, the Sonatacon, it actually

1909
01:37:48,439 --> 01:37:51,000
gets things added to it over time. And I don't

1910
01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:54,159
even know if everybody, if anybody even knows exactly what

1911
01:37:54,319 --> 01:37:58,800
the original sonatacons list of things that were prohibited are.

1912
01:37:58,960 --> 01:38:03,039
I just recall that in my reading, there's the idea

1913
01:38:03,279 --> 01:38:06,800
that the Sonoticon had the intention of banning quote, pagan art,

1914
01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:11,000
but exactly what constitutes pagan art there's probably some flexibility there.

1915
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:14,159
So I wasn't trying to be a rigorous on that Osifrage.

1916
01:38:14,319 --> 01:38:16,159
Speaker 1: For sure, like you wouldn't have you wouldn't have pagan

1917
01:38:16,199 --> 01:38:19,279
statues or pagan images inside the church. And the fact

1918
01:38:19,319 --> 01:38:21,840
that that maybe they said that shows you, you know,

1919
01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:24,319
maybe some of the some of the things that were

1920
01:38:24,359 --> 01:38:26,119
out of out of whack at the time. You know,

1921
01:38:26,239 --> 01:38:29,199
in Constantinople you had pagan art, it was there. You

1922
01:38:29,239 --> 01:38:32,039
would have pagan statues in the gardens, out in the streets.

1923
01:38:32,079 --> 01:38:35,159
There were statues of hercules of different heroes in that

1924
01:38:35,279 --> 01:38:39,119
were even remainders from Roman time. But they were always lower,

1925
01:38:39,239 --> 01:38:42,520
let's say, they're always lower than the churches, always lower,

1926
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:45,399
and never in the churches, never, you know, So it

1927
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:48,760
was more like a hierarchy of imagery. You remember the

1928
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:51,159
the ancient past. We we you know, we have some

1929
01:38:51,159 --> 01:38:53,159
some sympathy for it and some affection for it, but

1930
01:38:53,199 --> 01:38:55,960
we also know what it's placed. It's in the court,

1931
01:38:56,239 --> 01:38:57,399
it's not in the church.

1932
01:38:58,079 --> 01:39:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and osofrage you if you didn't see the interview

1933
01:39:02,319 --> 01:39:05,439
with Fallaer, Vladimir I would recommend that too, because we

1934
01:39:05,479 --> 01:39:07,800
go into that as well, and he makes the point

1935
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:10,439
that Jonathan just made about how if you look at

1936
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:13,640
Russian cities like Saint Petersburg, they kind of had the

1937
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:16,479
same notion that there's there's certain art that's you know,

1938
01:39:17,199 --> 01:39:20,600
applicable to museums and palaces, and then certain things that

1939
01:39:20,600 --> 01:39:24,079
are only really appropriate in the church that wouldn't be

1940
01:39:24,119 --> 01:39:26,560
those things, all right. So so, uh.

1941
01:39:26,680 --> 01:39:30,039
Speaker 1: There was a statue of Justinian in Constantinople, a huge

1942
01:39:30,039 --> 01:39:32,359
statue on a pillar which was I don't know, like

1943
01:39:32,439 --> 01:39:34,399
his leg was the size of a man. There's this

1944
01:39:34,640 --> 01:39:37,159
massive statue of Justinian up on a pillar that was

1945
01:39:37,199 --> 01:39:39,680
there until the fall of Constantinople. And so it's like,

1946
01:39:40,359 --> 01:39:44,079
you know, Orthodox were used to seeing statues, just not

1947
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:45,159
not too much in church.

1948
01:39:45,960 --> 01:39:50,479
Speaker 2: Also, Fradgigain says, Jay, I'm a fan of Preschism Western Orthodoxy.

1949
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:52,960
I've never attacked it. I don't know where people somebody

1950
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:54,319
said that I was against.

1951
01:39:54,359 --> 01:39:54,439
Speaker 1: No.

1952
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 2: I went to a Western right liturgy literally two months ago,

1953
01:39:57,039 --> 01:40:00,199
So I'm not against Western right liturgy. What is your

1954
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:04,520
view of the Western right being resurrected. I don't see

1955
01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:07,159
anything wrong with it. We one of my good friends

1956
01:40:07,159 --> 01:40:09,399
who was a uniate just came into the church and

1957
01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:12,760
he's in the Western Right. So shout out to to

1958
01:40:12,760 --> 01:40:16,760
to justin Third Eye News. So don't have any problem

1959
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:20,560
with it. I don't think that certain devotions that are

1960
01:40:22,039 --> 01:40:26,079
like Jesuit Nestorian devotions which I see the Sacred Heart

1961
01:40:26,119 --> 01:40:28,640
as are appropriate. I don't think those things are appropriate

1962
01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:30,119
North right. So but my problem is not I don't

1963
01:40:30,119 --> 01:40:33,319
have any problems with the Western right. I don't know

1964
01:40:33,359 --> 01:40:34,720
if you have any comment on Western right.

1965
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:38,000
Speaker 1: No, I really I don't. I mean I think that

1966
01:40:38,239 --> 01:40:42,600
it's I've seen some some do it successfully and others

1967
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:44,960
go off, go off the rails. It's it's a little

1968
01:40:45,000 --> 01:40:47,600
harder because the hierarchy is not that it's like, it's

1969
01:40:47,640 --> 01:40:49,760
kind of like trying to implant something in a different hierarchy.

1970
01:40:50,399 --> 01:40:52,159
But if anybody pulls it off, then I, you know,

1971
01:40:52,199 --> 01:40:53,159
I'll be happy to see it.

1972
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:57,880
Speaker 2: Jmail fifty dollars. Orthodox art and iconography all seems to

1973
01:40:57,920 --> 01:41:01,479
be the same style of art. Does it all go

1974
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:04,880
back to the Byzantine Empire? And thank you for this

1975
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:06,159
fantastic conversation.

1976
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:09,960
Speaker 1: I think that there are two things going on here.

1977
01:41:10,239 --> 01:41:15,279
One is that we always see things that we don't

1978
01:41:15,399 --> 01:41:18,279
understand as being the same. Let's say, can I say that,

1979
01:41:18,479 --> 01:41:20,399
like when we're not used to looking at things, we

1980
01:41:20,840 --> 01:41:23,239
tend to see them as the same. So there's actually

1981
01:41:23,319 --> 01:41:26,000
quite a bit of variability in the style of images

1982
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:30,039
in the Orthodox tradition from you know, from the early

1983
01:41:30,079 --> 01:41:32,680
centuries up until now. So there's actually quite a bit

1984
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:36,000
of variability. But there's also a flavor. There's also something

1985
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:39,279
which united together which makes you recognize it as as

1986
01:41:39,359 --> 01:41:42,840
Eastern art. And so so I think that that's the

1987
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:44,760
way to see it is to understand that there is

1988
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:47,760
and it's also about, you know, just how you kind

1989
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:50,960
of interact with the Church, Like you don't want to

1990
01:41:51,199 --> 01:41:53,399
rock the boat, Like why would you want to create

1991
01:41:53,399 --> 01:41:56,920
something that will be recognized by the church as something

1992
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:59,319
that they recognize, like it's something that they can participate

1993
01:41:59,319 --> 01:42:01,520
in and that they don't it doesn't jar them. So

1994
01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:05,640
because of that, it tends to kind of slowly change

1995
01:42:05,720 --> 01:42:08,840
and you know, get adapted to different Like Russian art

1996
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:10,880
looks very different from Byzantine art, but you can see

1997
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:13,760
that they that they have the same spirit, i'd say,

1998
01:42:13,560 --> 01:42:15,680
but visually they can be quite different.

1999
01:42:17,039 --> 01:42:19,960
Speaker 2: Muster Tiger thirty dollars. Thank you Jonathan and Jay. This

2000
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:23,000
is incredible work that you're doing for Christ in this

2001
01:42:23,119 --> 01:42:26,399
turbulent time and history. You've been blessing Lord God. Thank

2002
01:42:26,399 --> 01:42:30,439
you very much Muster Tiger, appreciate that. J Mel again

2003
01:42:30,560 --> 01:42:33,800
ten dollars. I don't know this. I'll ask this, Jonathan,

2004
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:36,199
what is the meaning of the mushroom in the Throne

2005
01:42:36,199 --> 01:42:36,520
of Peter.

2006
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:40,319
Speaker 1: I never seen any I never seen that. The mushroom

2007
01:42:40,359 --> 01:42:42,439
and the Throne of Peter. There's a lot you have

2008
01:42:42,479 --> 01:42:45,319
to be careful with. How can I say it. You

2009
01:42:45,359 --> 01:42:47,439
have to be really careful with a lot of people

2010
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:49,920
that look at things and see things in them, you know,

2011
01:42:50,119 --> 01:42:53,880
like they you have that stupid book about how how

2012
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:55,920
you know Christianity the mushroom or whatever where it's like

2013
01:42:55,920 --> 01:42:59,039
all the cross oh yeah, yeah, and and so you

2014
01:42:59,119 --> 01:43:00,880
really have to be careful. And I saw I don't

2015
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:03,800
know what image you're referring to, but you know, I

2016
01:43:03,840 --> 01:43:06,159
would be very surprised that there would be I mean,

2017
01:43:06,239 --> 01:43:08,199
unless it's like in the ornamentation that there's a much

2018
01:43:08,279 --> 01:43:12,319
room in the ornamentation, that's possible. But I do, like I.

2019
01:43:12,239 --> 01:43:15,319
Speaker 2: Did ask it one time, and I realize, like that's

2020
01:43:15,399 --> 01:43:21,600
what Ezekiel is seeing, Like yeah, you see, like Nectaria,

2021
01:43:21,720 --> 01:43:24,720
fifty dollars. Wow, thank you keep up the work for

2022
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:28,439
the Kingdom of God. Thank you, Nectaria, much appreciated. Pano.

2023
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:32,680
What's up, Pano? He says, for five dollars, Jay, Uh,

2024
01:43:33,199 --> 01:43:36,520
you forgot to link Jonathan's only fans in the description.

2025
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:40,399
I'll add Jonathan's only fans later. He's just joking, Joseph,

2026
01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:46,640
five dollars, Jonathan. How do you navigate a largely heterodox audience?

2027
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:49,800
Do you feel that you need to maybe at times

2028
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:52,439
tone down your power level in order to help reach

2029
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:55,239
your audience, to bring a proper relationship to Christ and

2030
01:43:55,279 --> 01:43:55,720
his church.

2031
01:43:57,640 --> 01:43:59,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like if you watch if you watch

2032
01:43:59,359 --> 01:44:01,479
my video, Jols see that I kind of it's like

2033
01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:04,159
a difficult it is a difficult balancing I feel because

2034
01:44:04,159 --> 01:44:06,319
I would say, like half of the people watching my

2035
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:09,560
content or are are atheists or kind of post Christian

2036
01:44:09,960 --> 01:44:12,640
and so so what I end up doing is I

2037
01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:15,520
end up separating it by videos. And so like some

2038
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:18,720
videos you'll see, you know, like codings and Ephraim and

2039
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:21,600
quotings and Gregory and I'm really or I'm just doing

2040
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:24,920
an interpretation of a biblical text and then or I'm

2041
01:44:24,920 --> 01:44:27,199
talking about icons whatever, and then other videos will be

2042
01:44:27,239 --> 01:44:30,359
on more let's say, kind of more bridge subjects where

2043
01:44:30,359 --> 01:44:33,119
I'm talking about culture in general. I'm talking about political

2044
01:44:33,279 --> 01:44:37,079
phenomena or you know, explaining the symbolism in the movie.

2045
01:44:37,560 --> 01:44:39,159
And so that's how I tend to do it. And

2046
01:44:39,199 --> 01:44:41,079
so what I hope is that people can kind of

2047
01:44:41,119 --> 01:44:44,800
move from the more uh, you know, or I'll use

2048
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:47,840
words that aren't from the Fathers. I could talk about consciousness,

2049
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:50,039
which obviously the Fathers never talk about consciousness, but you

2050
01:44:50,039 --> 01:44:52,439
can use these words to kind of help people slowly

2051
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:57,159
come closer to what the Fathers are talking about and

2052
01:44:57,199 --> 01:44:59,920
then move them, move them that way. So it is

2053
01:45:00,079 --> 01:45:03,079
it is sometimes I because sometimes some person who just

2054
01:45:03,079 --> 01:45:05,600
started watching my videos will watch a video where I

2055
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:08,640
basically take for granted that, you know, what the life

2056
01:45:08,640 --> 01:45:10,560
of Moses is like, you know these things, you take

2057
01:45:10,560 --> 01:45:13,520
them for granted, and then they think I'm spouting gibberish.

2058
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:16,880
So it's difficult, right, because you can't be always starting

2059
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:19,000
from the beginning every time you talk to people. So

2060
01:45:20,079 --> 01:45:21,079
we do what we can, you know.

2061
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:25,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have similar challenges here as well, with

2062
01:45:25,399 --> 01:45:28,199
different audiences. But Pano says again, three dollars, Jonathan, do

2063
01:45:28,239 --> 01:45:31,359
you see any glimmer of hope in the culture for

2064
01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:34,560
a cosmic flip towards a proper view of hierarchy on

2065
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:35,239
the horizon.

2066
01:45:37,359 --> 01:45:40,479
Speaker 1: I think that we can start actually start to see that.

2067
01:45:40,640 --> 01:45:43,319
I think there's a little there's some glimmer. I think

2068
01:45:43,359 --> 01:45:46,319
that the one of the things that I find interesting

2069
01:45:46,399 --> 01:45:50,159
is to notice, let's say something like like they say

2070
01:45:50,159 --> 01:45:52,479
this Jordan Peterson phenomena right that I've been kind of

2071
01:45:52,880 --> 01:45:57,079
associated with somehow. What you see in that is there's

2072
01:45:57,119 --> 01:45:59,600
a lot of error, and there's a lot of problems

2073
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:02,600
with he says and how people receive it. But in

2074
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:04,680
that there's definitely a bunch.

2075
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:09,039
Speaker 4: Of people who never could have understood what God, nothing

2076
01:46:09,039 --> 01:46:12,239
about God, nothing about religion, nothing about liturgy, nothing about

2077
01:46:12,239 --> 01:46:15,880
anything religious, who all of a sudden have this capacity

2078
01:46:16,319 --> 01:46:19,279
to even understand what we're talking about, like when we

2079
01:46:19,319 --> 01:46:22,000
talk about potential, when we talk about LOGI, when we

2080
01:46:22,039 --> 01:46:22,960
talk about.

2081
01:46:22,920 --> 01:46:25,159
Speaker 1: These words that that people used to think is just

2082
01:46:25,199 --> 01:46:26,720
a bunch of gibberish, and now all of a sudden

2083
01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:29,720
they're like, wait a minute, he's actually talking about my experience.

2084
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:32,600
He's actually talking about something which I experience every day.

2085
01:46:33,439 --> 01:46:36,600
And so I think that in this kind of strange moment,

2086
01:46:37,760 --> 01:46:39,920
I do see a glimmer of hope, and I think that,

2087
01:46:40,239 --> 01:46:42,119
you know, I think that Jay, you probably have a

2088
01:46:42,159 --> 01:46:44,159
similar experience where all of a sudden we're seeing in

2089
01:46:44,199 --> 01:46:46,920
the past few years, like you know, thousands of young men.

2090
01:46:46,960 --> 01:46:48,800
It's not a young men for some reason kind of

2091
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:51,880
returning to Christianity, a lot of them converting to Orthodoxy

2092
01:46:52,359 --> 01:46:54,920
and so and so. In that, I do see a glimmer.

2093
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:58,640
I don't necessarily see it as like the entire culture

2094
01:46:58,680 --> 01:47:00,800
is gonna flip. I see it more like maybe an

2095
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:04,039
art that will kind of take us through the dark times.

2096
01:47:04,119 --> 01:47:06,319
I see a lot darker times ahead, but I do

2097
01:47:06,399 --> 01:47:08,399
see that in that there's going to be some kind

2098
01:47:08,439 --> 01:47:11,720
of seed or something that will be bright and we'll

2099
01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:14,479
be able to kind of carry us through the.

2100
01:47:14,479 --> 01:47:17,159
Speaker 2: Master for two dollars, do you have any thoughts on

2101
01:47:17,279 --> 01:47:19,960
Jordan Peterson converting to Orthodoxy.

2102
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:24,199
Speaker 1: I can just I just I just decide. I mean,

2103
01:47:24,239 --> 01:47:26,560
at this point, I really just kind of said, you know, God,

2104
01:47:26,640 --> 01:47:29,399
this is your thing. Really like, this is what I've done.

2105
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:32,079
I feel like I feel like I've talked to him

2106
01:47:32,119 --> 01:47:36,960
and I presented things to him, and he came really close,

2107
01:47:37,960 --> 01:47:40,920
you know, he he talked about baptism, We talked about

2108
01:47:40,960 --> 01:47:43,720
it privately, like he came very close. But in the end,

2109
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:46,039
you know, it's his, it's his story, it's his journey,

2110
01:47:46,039 --> 01:47:48,000
and I can't I don't know what's going to happen.

2111
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:51,880
All I can do is I can really thank God

2112
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:55,720
that despite his no matter what his own personal journey

2113
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:58,319
ends up bringing him towards, I can thank God that

2114
01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:00,880
in that I've seen a lot of people come to

2115
01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:03,199
Christ and come to the church, and so so to me,

2116
01:48:03,279 --> 01:48:05,720
I just try to remain grateful for that and pray

2117
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:08,000
for his soul and pray for him and his and

2118
01:48:08,039 --> 01:48:11,279
his condition because he's obviously not still not doing very well.

2119
01:48:11,359 --> 01:48:14,439
So so yeah, so just pray for pray for Jordan Peterson,

2120
01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:17,000
you know, pray for those that follow him also, because

2121
01:48:17,399 --> 01:48:20,000
a lot of them have that first little glimpse where

2122
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:22,720
they can maybe move closer to the church.

2123
01:48:23,039 --> 01:48:25,960
Speaker 2: I get when people ask me when is Alex Jones

2124
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:27,760
going to become Orthodox? When is sam Hi going to

2125
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:30,680
become Orthodox? And I feel like it's a similar situations, like, well,

2126
01:48:31,079 --> 01:48:32,920
hopefully soon, keep praying for them.

2127
01:48:32,800 --> 01:48:36,760
Speaker 1: Right, we've seen like we've seen some crazy stuff happened before, right,

2128
01:48:36,840 --> 01:48:39,159
and so like Rouge like who would have who would

2129
01:48:39,239 --> 01:48:42,039
have thought? Right, Like, you know, five years ago like,

2130
01:48:42,079 --> 01:48:44,039
who who could have predicted something like that? And so

2131
01:48:44,439 --> 01:48:47,520
like we have these we have these crazy surprises, and

2132
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:49,680
so I think we'll see more of them on the horizon.

2133
01:48:50,359 --> 01:48:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Panos says three dollars Jonathan. Would you consider

2134
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:58,800
Saint John Chris system Pascal homily as a kind of inversion?

2135
01:48:59,239 --> 01:49:04,159
I always feel always found his insistence on everyone stuffing

2136
01:49:04,239 --> 01:49:08,640
themselves with the fallen table as striking compared to the

2137
01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:10,199
usual stress on fasting.

2138
01:49:11,279 --> 01:49:13,880
Speaker 1: Well, it's a feast, what do you expect. The way

2139
01:49:13,920 --> 01:49:16,520
to understand Saint John Chris System's homily is actually to

2140
01:49:16,760 --> 01:49:22,800
read to first read the the the Holy Saturday homily,

2141
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:25,039
the homiy that came the day before. Like if you

2142
01:49:25,079 --> 01:49:27,760
read the homily that came before, he talks about the

2143
01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:30,600
fire of health, and he talks about he just like

2144
01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:33,359
lays it out to you like this is this is

2145
01:49:33,439 --> 01:49:36,520
the hardest moment, Like this is talks about all the

2146
01:49:37,000 --> 01:49:39,000
punishment and all of this, Like he talks about that,

2147
01:49:39,439 --> 01:49:42,560
and then then he then he comes to Pasca and

2148
01:49:42,600 --> 01:49:44,920
then he opens the doors and says and so you

2149
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:47,000
have to be able to see those two kind of

2150
01:49:47,000 --> 01:49:50,000
held intention as a as the mystery of salvation and

2151
01:49:50,079 --> 01:49:52,399
the mystery of because we don't know how all of

2152
01:49:52,399 --> 01:49:54,159
this is going to play out, or we don't totally

2153
01:49:54,239 --> 01:49:57,000
we get it. But we have these two these two images,

2154
01:49:57,079 --> 01:50:00,520
let's say, of one, which is this image of of

2155
01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:04,119
punishment and hell and of you know, of the fire,

2156
01:50:04,199 --> 01:50:06,359
and then this image of God being all in all

2157
01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:09,399
and feeling all of reality, and we don't totally understand

2158
01:50:09,399 --> 01:50:10,680
how it's going to play out. So I think that

2159
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:12,600
that's how you have to see it. And when we

2160
01:50:12,640 --> 01:50:15,000
get to the Pascal hoamily, and when we get to

2161
01:50:15,039 --> 01:50:18,960
that moment where Chris system opens the doors and says

2162
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:21,560
all come and eat of the feast, we have to

2163
01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:24,720
be able to be there and to rejoice in that

2164
01:50:24,880 --> 01:50:27,000
and to participate in that in the same way that

2165
01:50:27,039 --> 01:50:29,199
we were there when we saw Christ on the cross

2166
01:50:29,279 --> 01:50:32,279
and we wept, we and we participated in that. And

2167
01:50:32,279 --> 01:50:34,359
so but we always always have to see it in

2168
01:50:34,560 --> 01:50:37,319
the whole, the whole of the story. Let's say, we

2169
01:50:37,319 --> 01:50:40,840
can't just separate it and have just that moment and

2170
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:42,439
think that that's all all there is.

2171
01:50:44,159 --> 01:50:47,239
Speaker 2: Made by Jim Bob fifty bucks, Thank you for that. Wow.

2172
01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:52,039
Is it possible that veganism is an unconscious response to carnivall,

2173
01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:56,560
making it metaphorically correct but not literally.

2174
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:01,439
Speaker 1: There, I understand what you means. What he means is

2175
01:51:01,760 --> 01:51:06,439
that there is an intuition in us, and I think

2176
01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:09,840
it's a true intuition, which is that somehow we are

2177
01:51:10,039 --> 01:51:14,159
above the carnal world. Let's say, you know, and then

2178
01:51:14,199 --> 01:51:19,199
that's why that's why monks are vegetarian. Like monks are vegetarian,

2179
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:22,840
they don't eat meat. And so I think that that's

2180
01:51:22,880 --> 01:51:25,239
the kind of intuition that people have. But I think

2181
01:51:25,279 --> 01:51:28,199
it's it's understood, and it's and it's wrong. There's nothing

2182
01:51:28,239 --> 01:51:30,399
wrong with eating meat. We should, you know, if you're

2183
01:51:30,439 --> 01:51:32,399
not a monk, you should eat meat. There's no there's

2184
01:51:32,399 --> 01:51:35,039
no issue. There's no issue about it. But but I

2185
01:51:35,079 --> 01:51:37,000
think that people have this kind of weird intuition and

2186
01:51:37,039 --> 01:51:39,319
then they turn it into a That's why they are

2187
01:51:39,319 --> 01:51:42,239
able to turn it into religion, because it feels like

2188
01:51:42,279 --> 01:51:44,520
it's some kind of spiritual purity that they're engaging with.

2189
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:48,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. But I would say remember too, Paul

2190
01:51:48,399 --> 01:51:50,760
says to Timothy that there will be false teachers that

2191
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:53,800
will come along and will forbid the eating of flesh.

2192
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:56,600
And I bring that up because Veganism, remember, guys, as

2193
01:51:56,640 --> 01:52:00,319
we've done many shows and podcasts with Tristan, vegans is

2194
01:52:00,359 --> 01:52:04,000
an ethical position which is that all animal products are

2195
01:52:04,039 --> 01:52:06,640
inherently wrong and evil to you. So it's not just

2196
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:09,359
about your diet. In fact, the vegans will get on

2197
01:52:09,399 --> 01:52:12,560
to you if you try to be a vegan for

2198
01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:18,079
diet issues. Veganism is an ethical position distinct from vegetarianism,

2199
01:52:18,199 --> 01:52:19,760
so keep that in mind as well.

2200
01:52:20,319 --> 01:52:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. And the monks, they monks, they

2201
01:52:22,720 --> 01:52:26,239
do it out of contrition and astheticism, right, They're not

2202
01:52:26,279 --> 01:52:28,680
saying everybody should live like that. They're saying I'm actually

2203
01:52:28,680 --> 01:52:32,159
sacrificing something which I would like to be able to

2204
01:52:32,279 --> 01:52:35,439
kind of, you know, gather my body into prayer. And

2205
01:52:35,479 --> 01:52:37,479
that's different from, like you said, this kind of ethical

2206
01:52:37,520 --> 01:52:40,600
position where it's like, you know, this finger wagging veganism,

2207
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:41,880
which always ends well.

2208
01:52:41,640 --> 01:52:45,039
Speaker 2: I mean if a monk has a leather sandal, that's

2209
01:52:45,039 --> 01:52:49,880
not vegan, that's right. Ex So go boy East Saw

2210
01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:52,079
twenty dollars. Thank you for all that you do, mister

2211
01:52:52,600 --> 01:52:57,279
Diar Hail Jesus, so thank you appreciate that. Jay Poopy

2212
01:52:57,439 --> 01:53:00,600
fifty dollars. I just want to thank you, you both

2213
01:53:01,159 --> 01:53:03,960
both of you, gentlemen, for your aid. I would if

2214
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:05,119
it was not for you, guys, I would still be

2215
01:53:05,159 --> 01:53:06,520
an atheist. Oh that's great to hear.

2216
01:53:07,319 --> 01:53:07,439
Speaker 1: Uh.

2217
01:53:07,880 --> 01:53:10,079
Speaker 2: I've been going to an Orthodox church every week for

2218
01:53:10,239 --> 01:53:12,880
the last the last six months and will be getting

2219
01:53:12,920 --> 01:53:15,760
baptized soon, God willing. Wow, thank you, glad. I always

2220
01:53:15,800 --> 01:53:19,680
love hearing the atheists that that convert and shout out

2221
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:23,479
to Seraphim, because we've even got people, uh that will

2222
01:53:23,479 --> 01:53:26,079
be in the clergy soon that were former atheists. So

2223
01:53:26,119 --> 01:53:29,600
it's amazing to hear that. Contu Yeah, roll stakes ten bucks.

2224
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:33,720
How is the church? I'll let Jonathan answer this. How

2225
01:53:33,760 --> 01:53:35,520
how would you see the church as the body of

2226
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:37,359
Christ but also the bride of Christ.

2227
01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:43,279
Speaker 1: I struggled to see how you find that difficult in

2228
01:53:43,319 --> 01:53:47,199
the sense that that's actually that's actually the that's actually

2229
01:53:47,479 --> 01:53:51,439
a very normal relationship. That is the See, if you

2230
01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:54,479
understand the body as this that say, the capacity to

2231
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:57,279
kind of manifest in the world and to kind of

2232
01:53:57,279 --> 01:54:01,079
have extensions and to have that's what that's what happens

2233
01:54:01,079 --> 01:54:04,239
when you when you have children with a woman, it's

2234
01:54:04,239 --> 01:54:07,039
like your body gets bigger, you could say, So the

2235
01:54:07,119 --> 01:54:09,199
father is the head, and then the family kind of

2236
01:54:09,239 --> 01:54:14,199
extends out of the father, and the woman becomes the vessel.

2237
01:54:14,399 --> 01:54:18,239
She's the arc, she's the womb, and then and then

2238
01:54:18,479 --> 01:54:21,119
the fruits of that will kind of manifest in the world.

2239
01:54:21,399 --> 01:54:24,039
And so that's why the body and the bride are

2240
01:54:24,039 --> 01:54:26,800
completely related in terms of their their symbolism. It's like

2241
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:28,920
heaven and earth. You know, it's that which is above,

2242
01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:31,239
that which is below that which is below, which takes

2243
01:54:31,239 --> 01:54:34,760
the seed and then manifests it, makes it fruitful and

2244
01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:37,479
makes it appear as you know, as body.

2245
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:42,239
Speaker 2: So, oh yeah, great answer be stap five dollars. Do

2246
01:54:42,279 --> 01:54:44,399
you have any thoughts on the symbolic meaning? I think

2247
01:54:44,399 --> 01:54:46,039
this is a joke or a troll comment. Do you

2248
01:54:46,039 --> 01:54:47,960
have any thoughts on the symbolic meaning of the word

2249
01:54:48,039 --> 01:54:52,720
Nicholas cage since since Nicholas means victory of the people

2250
01:54:52,840 --> 01:54:55,720
and a cage means confining structure, I think that's got

2251
01:54:55,760 --> 01:54:58,239
to be a joke. But that's actually pretty funny. Rolf

2252
01:54:58,319 --> 01:55:00,319
Stakes five dollars. You guys should do a lot stream

2253
01:55:00,319 --> 01:55:04,640
on rockfin to discuss symbolism and iconography in terms of

2254
01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:10,279
the Kouf that we will definitely discuss that possibility since

2255
01:55:10,319 --> 01:55:14,119
a lot of things on here YouTube you can't talk about. Also,

2256
01:55:14,119 --> 01:55:17,680
perhaps you could discuss the stabs and how it relates

2257
01:55:17,720 --> 01:55:21,640
to the secular world, maybe like a secular sacrament could be.

2258
01:55:21,960 --> 01:55:24,439
Speaker 1: I think so. I think that's definitely something which is

2259
01:55:24,439 --> 01:55:26,680
because there is this idea of sacrifice. It's presented to

2260
01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:30,159
us as a sacrifice saying it's like you have to

2261
01:55:30,399 --> 01:55:33,079
it's like it's danger it is dangerous, you need to

2262
01:55:33,119 --> 01:55:37,079
sacrifice yourself to participate in the in the community. That's

2263
01:55:37,079 --> 01:55:40,079
how it's presented. And it's a yeah, and it's painful.

2264
01:55:40,239 --> 01:55:41,960
So it's a nice little image of kind of like

2265
01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:43,279
circumcision or something like that.

2266
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:43,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2267
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:45,720
Speaker 1: No, So all of this, all of this makes it

2268
01:55:45,760 --> 01:55:49,760
completely completely coherent in terms of a kind of secular

2269
01:55:49,840 --> 01:55:51,880
sacrament exactly.

2270
01:55:52,000 --> 01:55:55,880
Speaker 2: Not Scotty twenty dollars. Will the two of you discuss

2271
01:55:56,079 --> 01:56:00,399
patriarch Bartholome You, Well, that's a controversial subject. I've done

2272
01:56:00,479 --> 01:56:06,199
multiple podcasts, multiple interviews with well known public figures Jim Johntras,

2273
01:56:06,199 --> 01:56:09,199
Metropolitan Jonah, So you can go listen to those interviews

2274
01:56:09,520 --> 01:56:12,159
to get my take on that. I don't know if

2275
01:56:12,399 --> 01:56:15,600
Jonathan has a take or position on pet pigrot Bartholomew.

2276
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:16,239
That's up to him.

2277
01:56:16,600 --> 01:56:21,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've kind of decided early on that that I,

2278
01:56:21,119 --> 01:56:24,279
although I don't think that church politics are unimportant, I

2279
01:56:24,319 --> 01:56:28,760
think that that they're just not my venue to speak about.

2280
01:56:28,840 --> 01:56:31,760
And as I tried to concentrate on the things that

2281
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:33,520
I talk about, so I try to kind of avoid

2282
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:36,439
talking about the you know, the sad politics of the

2283
01:56:36,479 --> 01:56:37,479
of the Orthodox Church.

2284
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:40,640
Speaker 2: John and Non five dollars. What is the Orthodox perspective

2285
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:44,920
and symbolism concerning honoring your parents, elders, spiritual fathers, and

2286
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:51,800
clergy And how does disparaging boomers relate to the invert

2287
01:56:51,840 --> 01:56:54,479
the divine order? Okay, it's a joke I've been doing.

2288
01:56:54,560 --> 01:56:57,760
It's like a shtick I do. I'm not literally disparaging boomers.

2289
01:56:58,079 --> 01:56:59,880
We have boomers come on the channel all the time.

2290
01:57:00,000 --> 01:57:02,319
Any boomers I respect. My godfather is a boomer, right,

2291
01:57:02,359 --> 01:57:05,560
I love my godfather, Dean, great guy, Metropolitan Jonah, we

2292
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:08,520
love him, Doctor Bradshaw. So it's just a stick. I'm

2293
01:57:08,560 --> 01:57:11,920
not literally intending to subvert the divine order. But no,

2294
01:57:12,520 --> 01:57:16,119
do you have any perspective on honoring father, elder, spiritual

2295
01:57:17,039 --> 01:57:19,800
authorities and how that relates to the divine order.

2296
01:57:20,680 --> 01:57:23,600
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, it's definitely. It's very important because one

2297
01:57:23,640 --> 01:57:26,560
of the things that we have is especially a lot

2298
01:57:26,560 --> 01:57:28,319
of it that come from Protestantism. We have this idea

2299
01:57:28,359 --> 01:57:30,560
of this like pure relationship with God. Right, it's like

2300
01:57:30,800 --> 01:57:33,000
just me and God and I just need to honor God.

2301
01:57:33,039 --> 01:57:35,039
But that's not how it works. We want the world

2302
01:57:35,079 --> 01:57:37,640
to hold together. That Let's say there's a kind of

2303
01:57:37,640 --> 01:57:40,119
a hierarchy of honor that we offer, you know, to

2304
01:57:40,560 --> 01:57:43,039
those that came before us, to the saints, to our

2305
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:46,800
to our authorities, to our fathers, and that that doesn't

2306
01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:48,920
take away from the worship we have of God. It

2307
01:57:49,000 --> 01:57:51,840
actually becomes a way in which that kind of lays

2308
01:57:51,840 --> 01:57:55,079
itself out in the world and holds reality together. But

2309
01:57:55,119 --> 01:57:57,079
in terms of making fun of boomers, I think that

2310
01:57:58,239 --> 01:58:00,520
I think that that there's a sense in which we

2311
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:03,680
also have we also understand that the sixties were a

2312
01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:07,319
real thing, Like the sixties really were a break. I mean,

2313
01:58:07,319 --> 01:58:09,359
there were many breaks before, but that they really were

2314
01:58:09,439 --> 01:58:14,000
a break, and that in the same way that the

2315
01:58:14,119 --> 01:58:16,920
hippies made fun of the people who game before them,

2316
01:58:17,119 --> 01:58:20,199
there's like a funny kind of double inversion and making

2317
01:58:20,239 --> 01:58:22,760
fun of those that broke the system and showing how

2318
01:58:22,880 --> 01:58:26,039
kind of cringey that that ends up looking. I think

2319
01:58:26,039 --> 01:58:28,600
that it's kind of like Babylon B type humor, where

2320
01:58:28,960 --> 01:58:32,199
you know, you're basically making fun of the person that's

2321
01:58:32,239 --> 01:58:35,039
that's that's supposed to make fun and then you you

2322
01:58:35,119 --> 01:58:38,319
bring it back to just like normal, normal order. So

2323
01:58:38,319 --> 01:58:40,439
so I think that I kind of I totally get it,

2324
01:58:40,439 --> 01:58:42,960
and I think it's you know, I understand why it's

2325
01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:45,960
part of Jay's Sticklet's say say it that way.

2326
01:58:46,159 --> 01:58:48,760
Speaker 2: Well, by the way, I oftentimes we invite people to

2327
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:53,840
make the best millennial and zenial. I think I'm on

2328
01:58:53,880 --> 01:58:57,319
the cusp of millennial and zenial or whatever whatever. I'm

2329
01:58:57,359 --> 01:58:59,600
on the cusp, But we invite people to bring those

2330
01:58:59,680 --> 01:59:01,159
jokes as well. I don't mind it. I think it's

2331
01:59:01,159 --> 01:59:03,600
actually funny. There's plenty of things in my generation to

2332
01:59:03,600 --> 01:59:08,079
make fun of. Wu de wu one dollar. How does

2333
01:59:08,159 --> 01:59:17,000
pure act reduce or limit the omnipotence of God?

2334
01:59:18,079 --> 01:59:19,199
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you answer that.

2335
01:59:19,239 --> 01:59:25,000
Speaker 2: Jay, Well, just simply, I would say that it's not

2336
01:59:25,239 --> 01:59:29,520
really a limitation of omnipotence. It's more so a position

2337
01:59:29,560 --> 01:59:31,800
that kind of confines God to only being able to

2338
01:59:31,880 --> 01:59:37,560
do one thing at all times. And so in the

2339
01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:41,600
way that for example, Thomistic theology conceives of pure act,

2340
01:59:42,079 --> 01:59:45,960
omnipotence would literally be identical to pure act. So in

2341
01:59:45,960 --> 01:59:49,479
that sense it would limit the omnipotence, and so it

2342
01:59:49,479 --> 01:59:53,119
would prevent things like God freely creating or God the

2343
01:59:53,199 --> 01:59:56,720
Sun incarnating, et cetera. Jared sends five dollars and he

2344
01:59:56,720 --> 02:00:01,720
says nothing. Stoke it. Since ten many of my students

2345
02:00:02,479 --> 02:00:07,880
from Mexico are wearing a Saint Christopher necklace and icons

2346
02:00:07,920 --> 02:00:11,640
on their shirt, that's weird. Why is there a resurgence

2347
02:00:12,279 --> 02:00:16,079
in terms of devotion to Saint Christopher that I don't know?

2348
02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:19,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I talk about that a lot. Actually, I've

2349
02:00:19,960 --> 02:00:22,239
I've really kind of talk quite a bit about Saint

2350
02:00:22,319 --> 02:00:25,279
Christopher as something like the patron saint at the end

2351
02:00:25,319 --> 02:00:29,520
of the world, because Christopher is in both traditions, like

2352
02:00:29,520 --> 02:00:31,800
there's one tradition according to which he's a giant, he's

2353
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:34,760
a Canaanite, and there's another tradition according to which he's

2354
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:37,800
a he's a dog headed man, he's a cenocephally, and

2355
02:00:37,880 --> 02:00:40,319
so in that sense, Saint Christopher is that image of

2356
02:00:40,359 --> 02:00:43,119
ibridity on the edge, which is why he's the He's

2357
02:00:43,159 --> 02:00:46,159
the patron saint of travelers. He was represented on bridges,

2358
02:00:46,239 --> 02:00:49,439
on these, on these in between spaces, let's say, you know,

2359
02:00:49,520 --> 02:00:53,479
connecting spaces between two identities, and so he's actually something

2360
02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:57,840
of the craziness of the world right now. But that's

2361
02:00:57,880 --> 02:01:01,359
why I emphasize Saint Christopher, because he actually shows us

2362
02:01:01,640 --> 02:01:04,680
the way that that can be flipped and transformed into

2363
02:01:05,159 --> 02:01:08,000
carrying Christ. That is that the edge actually acts as

2364
02:01:08,039 --> 02:01:11,159
a possibility of bringing Christ further. Right in the legend

2365
02:01:11,199 --> 02:01:15,399
of Saint Christopher, he ends up carrying Christ across the river,

2366
02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:17,800
and so that I think that's one of the reasons

2367
02:01:17,840 --> 02:01:20,880
why I think Saint Christopher is important right now and

2368
02:01:21,039 --> 02:01:24,239
is popular, and why that's one of the reasons why

2369
02:01:24,319 --> 02:01:28,880
I emphasize his imagery is to balance out the negative

2370
02:01:29,199 --> 02:01:32,000
aspect of the edge and to try to point towards

2371
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:35,239
something which is actually Christ carrying Interesting.

2372
02:01:35,560 --> 02:01:38,680
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about that. That's cool. Conrad three dollars.

2373
02:01:38,800 --> 02:01:42,680
Have you read cosmocent Transcendence by Wolfgang Smith. This is

2374
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:45,119
a great conversation. I hope to see more in the future.

2375
02:01:46,199 --> 02:01:48,880
Speaker 1: If I have no I haven't read much by Wolfgang Smith.

2376
02:01:50,479 --> 02:01:53,039
Speaker 2: I think Conrad is a he's from our discourse, so

2377
02:01:53,279 --> 02:01:55,560
he knows I like that book. So yes, it is

2378
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:59,680
a good book. Hickory Dickory eighty six twenty bucks. Saint

2379
02:01:59,760 --> 02:02:02,079
John tells us that six six six is the number

2380
02:02:02,079 --> 02:02:03,840
of a man. Do you have any thoughts or opinions

2381
02:02:03,880 --> 02:02:09,680
about Romanesque iconography, John re J, I don't know, and yes,

2382
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:10,199
he does say.

2383
02:02:10,279 --> 02:02:12,560
Speaker 1: Those are two questions. I imagine, like I guess it.

2384
02:02:13,680 --> 02:02:16,760
I think Romanesque iconography is wonderful. I think Romanesque means

2385
02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:20,119
it's like it's like the Western Medieval style. I think

2386
02:02:20,159 --> 02:02:22,239
it's I think it's wonderful. I think it's completely in

2387
02:02:22,279 --> 02:02:26,760
line with Byzantine tropes and Byzantine let's say so, I

2388
02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:31,560
think that for a Western version of Orthodoxy, I think

2389
02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:33,720
that it's appropriate to kind of bring in some of

2390
02:02:33,760 --> 02:02:37,279
that Romanesque style. You see that in England, people like

2391
02:02:37,319 --> 02:02:41,239
aiden Hart and many of the British iconographers are really

2392
02:02:41,279 --> 02:02:45,399
doing it very deliberately, but also very thoughtfully. Obviously not

2393
02:02:45,479 --> 02:02:47,439
just it's not just about copying, but it really is

2394
02:02:47,479 --> 02:02:52,359
about kind of thoughtfully integrating kind of Western Medieval tropes

2395
02:02:52,399 --> 02:02:55,640
into our iconography in order to be able to celebrate

2396
02:02:55,680 --> 02:02:56,159
that as well.

2397
02:02:58,479 --> 02:03:02,359
Speaker 2: Jpoopy again five dollars. Could it be argued symbolically that

2398
02:03:02,479 --> 02:03:08,800
the Reformation, emphasis on the individual understanding of God's commands

2399
02:03:08,840 --> 02:03:12,560
more closely follows the path in which Adam took, rather

2400
02:03:12,600 --> 02:03:17,239
than Jesus emphasis on following the guidelines of hierarchy that

2401
02:03:17,319 --> 02:03:18,680
he promised to leave us.

2402
02:03:20,960 --> 02:03:23,119
Speaker 1: I think I kind of understand what you mean. I

2403
02:03:23,159 --> 02:03:25,840
think that we I think that we really can understand

2404
02:03:25,880 --> 02:03:30,239
the Reformation as a revolution, you know it really I

2405
02:03:30,279 --> 02:03:33,159
always kind of say that. You know, all the time

2406
02:03:33,199 --> 02:03:36,079
that Luther was criticizing the church and was complaining about

2407
02:03:36,239 --> 02:03:38,720
the excesses of the church, I'm there, I'm with you, Luther,

2408
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:41,119
like I'm fine with you. But then the day that

2409
02:03:41,239 --> 02:03:44,399
he named priests, I think that's the day when he

2410
02:03:44,479 --> 02:03:47,279
went completely off his off the rails, Like he had

2411
02:03:47,279 --> 02:03:49,399
no authority. He was a lay monk, he had no

2412
02:03:49,479 --> 02:03:53,159
authority to name priests, he had no authority to declare

2413
02:03:53,239 --> 02:03:55,800
himself the authority in the church. And so I think

2414
02:03:55,800 --> 02:03:58,119
that from that from there he just I mean, then

2415
02:03:58,159 --> 02:04:01,439
he started becoming completely mad in terms of even in

2416
02:04:01,439 --> 02:04:03,920
the way that he perceived the church and everything, and

2417
02:04:03,960 --> 02:04:06,319
so I think that I think that it is appropriate

2418
02:04:06,359 --> 02:04:09,720
to kind of understand the Reformation as a revolution and

2419
02:04:09,760 --> 02:04:13,000
as even one of the earliest revolutions that led to

2420
02:04:13,079 --> 02:04:16,159
the to the further revolutions that we see the secular

2421
02:04:16,199 --> 02:04:17,800
revolutions which came afterwards.

2422
02:04:18,239 --> 02:04:20,720
Speaker 2: I agree. I would say that there is a move

2423
02:04:20,840 --> 02:04:25,920
towards anatomized individual christian and an individual Christianity, even if

2424
02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:28,840
the classical reformers didn't intend that to be the case,

2425
02:04:28,880 --> 02:04:31,920
that's kind of where the logic led. So I think

2426
02:04:31,960 --> 02:04:35,199
that is true. Devotional Heart five dollars, she says nothing.

2427
02:04:35,560 --> 02:04:39,359
Thank you for Devotional Heart victory five dollars. Can I

2428
02:04:39,439 --> 02:04:43,199
make this happen now? I've been having problems before testing

2429
02:04:43,319 --> 02:04:46,399
it worked. Your five dollars, they come through and you

2430
02:04:46,439 --> 02:04:48,159
did get it read. So thank you for that, Jay

2431
02:04:48,199 --> 02:04:51,640
Brod five dollars. Saint Johnamascus says the whole earth is

2432
02:04:51,680 --> 02:04:54,520
a living icon of the face of God. Thank you

2433
02:04:54,600 --> 02:04:58,079
for answering my last question. I will read those books. Yes,

2434
02:04:58,359 --> 02:05:01,720
that's I think Jonathan was making that point earlier, that

2435
02:05:01,800 --> 02:05:04,039
the ideas that really the whole created order would be

2436
02:05:04,039 --> 02:05:10,079
a theo fanic manifestation fabio br three dollars. How do

2437
02:05:10,159 --> 02:05:14,319
you react to clergy who feel threatened that some people

2438
02:05:14,439 --> 02:05:18,920
would rather learn theology from you guys than from them.

2439
02:05:19,439 --> 02:05:21,199
I'll let you answer that and then I'll give response.

2440
02:05:23,159 --> 02:05:26,159
Speaker 1: Well, in my I think in my case, I don't.

2441
02:05:26,239 --> 02:05:28,960
I haven't had an issue with that, and myself, like

2442
02:05:29,000 --> 02:05:33,800
I've had a problem, you know, mostly because when especially

2443
02:05:33,840 --> 02:05:36,359
when people ask me questions that become too personal or

2444
02:05:36,399 --> 02:05:38,720
too much pastoral, I always tell them to go to

2445
02:05:38,760 --> 02:05:40,560
the priests, like I just say, go to your priest,

2446
02:05:40,640 --> 02:05:42,680
go to church, you know, And so I've been. And

2447
02:05:42,720 --> 02:05:44,880
also because I think that in a way, I also

2448
02:05:45,000 --> 02:05:48,560
don't talk about theology that much, like I try to

2449
02:05:48,640 --> 02:05:52,479
avoid theology. So I just haven't had I just myself

2450
02:05:52,520 --> 02:05:53,880
haven't had much of an issue with that.

2451
02:05:54,720 --> 02:05:56,800
Speaker 2: And I would say that, you know, that has been

2452
02:05:57,359 --> 02:06:00,640
mentioned in regard to me and the discord few times,

2453
02:06:00,720 --> 02:06:03,039
and I would say that, you know, we have clergy

2454
02:06:03,039 --> 02:06:06,760
in the discord. There's multiple priests, multiple multiple deacons, UH

2455
02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:09,239
and metro Falt and Jonah has done a year's worth

2456
02:06:09,239 --> 02:06:12,079
of lectures in the discord. So we always typically recommend

2457
02:06:12,159 --> 02:06:14,359
that people do the very same thing. Because I don't

2458
02:06:14,359 --> 02:06:17,119
want to be your spiritual father. I'm not a spiritual father.

2459
02:06:17,159 --> 02:06:20,079
I'm not a guru. I'm more than happy to to

2460
02:06:20,119 --> 02:06:23,039
tell people to go to their priest and their spiritual father.

2461
02:06:23,159 --> 02:06:25,319
And and when people convert, we always tell them to

2462
02:06:25,359 --> 02:06:28,239
find a canonical Orthodox church. So we're not trying to

2463
02:06:28,279 --> 02:06:32,359
be any kind of gurus. I don't see any more

2464
02:06:32,399 --> 02:06:35,079
super chats. Uh, this has been a great discussion, Jonathan,

2465
02:06:35,119 --> 02:06:36,760
Is anything you want to leave us with before we

2466
02:06:36,800 --> 02:06:37,319
close out?

2467
02:06:38,640 --> 02:06:40,479
Speaker 1: No, I would say thanks. I think it was really

2468
02:06:40,520 --> 02:06:43,760
it was actually very very productive and very uh it was.

2469
02:06:43,760 --> 02:06:46,079
It was a nice discussion and and uh and yeah,

2470
02:06:46,119 --> 02:06:48,159
so I'm looking, yeah, we'll see. It'd be nice to

2471
02:06:48,279 --> 02:06:51,079
do it again on other subjects. And I and I'm

2472
02:06:51,159 --> 02:06:53,840
and I'm really it's like, I'm really not surprised to

2473
02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:57,079
what extent we we actually agree on on this image

2474
02:06:57,119 --> 02:06:59,159
of how the world kind of how you know, how

2475
02:06:59,439 --> 02:07:02,640
we're lated to self out. I tend to not say

2476
02:07:02,680 --> 02:07:05,399
this theologically as you, but but I'm kind of happy

2477
02:07:05,399 --> 02:07:07,079
to see that it connects with the way that that

2478
02:07:07,239 --> 02:07:10,000
you talk about it and more kind of technically theological terms.

2479
02:07:10,079 --> 02:07:12,640
I tend to have more informal way of talking about it,

2480
02:07:12,640 --> 02:07:14,800
so I'm happy that it turned out that we did.

2481
02:07:15,079 --> 02:07:18,359
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, well, everybody, be sure and follow Jonathan. His

2482
02:07:18,479 --> 02:07:22,119
links are in the show description. You see his channel there,

2483
02:07:22,119 --> 02:07:23,800
and then you can go to his carvings page and

2484
02:07:23,800 --> 02:07:26,079
then I think I forgot the symbolic world link, but

2485
02:07:26,119 --> 02:07:29,039
I'll put that in after this. And then you can

2486
02:07:29,079 --> 02:07:31,399
follow him on all of his socials as well. He's

2487
02:07:31,439 --> 02:07:35,000
on Twitter, he's on I think Insta. You're on Instagram too, right, yeah, yeah,

2488
02:07:35,039 --> 02:07:36,760
so you can follow him on all the socials and

2489
02:07:37,039 --> 02:07:39,079
thank you everybody. It was a great show, and be

2490
02:07:39,159 --> 02:07:41,720
sure and like and share, and you can follow and

2491
02:07:41,760 --> 02:07:45,239
subscribe to my website as well. So thank you Jonathan,

2492
02:07:46,079 --> 02:08:00,239
good night, all right for bye m