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Are you feeling lucky? 50 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:05.599 No? 51 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.960 We're just necessary for eighteen plus terms, conditions plus every game. 52 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:22.240 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 53 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.360 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 54 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:29.520 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer. 55 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:31.520 The Night Stalker BTK. 56 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:36.240 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 57 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:40.400 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 58 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.520 your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 59 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:58.319 Good Evening. Some crimes are so shocking that they change 60 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.319 a nation forever. In revealing the lives and crimes of 61 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:08.319 Australia's worst murderers, rapists and kidnappers, in all their horror, innocence, 62 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:11.400 Lost answers the question we ask when we hear about 63 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:16.919 lives taken so ruthlessly why Season crime writer Amanda Howard 64 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.360 has spent eighteen years studying and interviewing killers and criminals 65 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.080 across the globe to get answers to this question. In 66 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.199 interviewing many of these criminals face to face in prison, 67 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.199 she has given a rare insight into these faces of evil. 68 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:34.319 The stories of serial killers such as Ivan Malott and 69 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.319 Martin Byron are detailed, as well as double murderer Mark Valera, 70 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:44.159 child murderer, Kathleen Folbig and Anita Cobby's Killers. The mysterious 71 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:48.159 disappearances of Daniel Moorecombe and the Beaumont children are explored 72 00:03:48.280 --> 00:03:51.560 and we are given an intriguing insight into family killers 73 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:56.840 Kathleen Knight, Matthew de Griccy and Seph Gonzalez. The book 74 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:00.319 they were featuring this evening is Innocence Lost, The Times 75 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:04.280 that Changed Australia with my special guest journalist and author 76 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:07.879 Amanda Howard. Welcome back to the program and thank you 77 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:10.319 very much for agreeing to this interview all the way 78 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.599 from Australia, Amanda Howard, thank you very much. 79 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.879 For this time, my Dan, thank you for having us again. 80 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:19.839 And it's great to be back. It's good, I'm good. 81 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.759 It's always a pleasure. It's always a pleasure. These books 82 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:29.240 are incredible. Let's talk about a little bit about how 83 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:34.720 you put Innocent's Loss together? What made the cut, what 84 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:36.959 did you want to sort of put with us, What 85 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:39.240 is really contained in Innocen's Loss? 86 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:44.000 Well, this book was written as a where were you 87 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:49.120 kind of books, So where were you and Daniel Morcolm disappeared? 88 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:50.680 Where were you when you heard about the need to 89 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:55.399 copycase where were you when Port Arthur happened? So it's 90 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:59.959 those questions that Australia, it sends chills down our color 91 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:04.879 ap spine, that it's cases that create fear. It's those 92 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:09.639 cases that we all remember. It's cases that makes us 93 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:12.639 hug our children just a bit tighter at night. So 94 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:15.800 it was it was about looking at all of the 95 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:18.120 sorts of cases because there is a lot more and 96 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.160 there is a volume two and three coming, so there 97 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:23.680 is a lot more cases that I will explore, but 98 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:25.480 for this one that these are the cases that I 99 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.199 felt a personal connection to, those cases that if I 100 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:32.839 had to run off a list, these are those murders. 101 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:38.759 You have the book in sections, so tell us some 102 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:40.560 of the sections that you have this. 103 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:47.560 Yep. Well, I started off with a section called the Victim, 104 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.319 so that was actually looking at a lot of sex 105 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:54.600 crimes that occurred, our worst of our worst. Then I 106 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:58.639 went on to the children, and that includes a chapter 107 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.360 on the Graham Thorne case, which I actually have a 108 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:05.319 personal connection to. I went on then to the missing 109 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:07.759 children because we have a lot of cold cases in 110 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.920 this country of children, especially in Adelaide. But there's a 111 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.879 lot of cases that raise more questions than they answer. 112 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:17.439 I go on to predators, which is obviously our child 113 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:20.720 sex killers. We have had some horrific cases here in 114 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:24.759 this country. Then onto the family killers like Catherine Knight 115 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:28.360 and Matthew Dugrucci and Seth Gonzales, so those cases where 116 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:33.519 we examine how someone inside a family could take out 117 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:37.959 those that they apparently love partners in crime was next, 118 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:42.199 So that's looking at tandem killers. So it's a fascinating 119 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:44.199 topic that I actually do a lot of work on. 120 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:48.160 So looking at how two people can come together and 121 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:52.920 go on a killing spree and how they build more 122 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:57.800 trust than most of us would even ever try to comprehend. Obviously, 123 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:00.319 then we have our serial killers. We do have a 124 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.480 few here like Ivan Malatt and Paul Daniere. I went 125 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.519 into a bit of historical cases because not only do 126 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:11.040 we have bush rangers here, but we had several cases 127 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.720 of baby farming that was happening here as well. That 128 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:18.959 is renowned throw out the world, particularly in England. Baby killers, 129 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.199 so we've had a fair few of those over the years. 130 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:24.480 Then the rampages, which is the Port Arthur case and 131 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.800 our Strathfield case that a man went into a shopping 132 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:31.079 center and shot the place up. Our unusual cases. Now, 133 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:35.560 I come from a town called Campbelltown in Sydney and 134 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.720 we every November have a massive celebration called Fish's Ghost Festival, 135 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.560 and that's actually based on a murder case that happened 136 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:48.439 here in the nineteenth century and apparently the ghost pointed 137 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:52.480 the police to his own corpse. So it's something it's 138 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:54.680 an odd thing to celebrate. It's probably why I do 139 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.480 true crime. But I had to include a local case, 140 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:02.000 and then we just have some unsolved cases and cases 141 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:05.079 that people don't know about that should so I sort 142 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:07.360 of spread it out. There's a lot of murder, a 143 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:11.439 lot of death, but it's those cases that changed laws, 144 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:18.480 created a lot of dialogue, wondered why we no longer 145 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:21.040 have the death penalty and things like that. So it 146 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:23.519 was all those cases that I thought I can split 147 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:27.199 them up and just examine how these people do what they. 148 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:33.039 Do, and to start innocents last, you really do start 149 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.519 with an incredibly disturbing case. As we mentioned in the 150 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:42.000 beginning opening, Anita Cabby. So tell us a little bit 151 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:47.039 about Anita Cabby before we talk about John Travers and 152 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:48.480 the Murphy Boys. 153 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:52.679 So Anita Cobby was a nurse who worked in Sydney. 154 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.679 She had recently separated from her husband, though they were 155 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:01.480 still together, but she had gone out for an evening. 156 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:04.600 It was it was summertime here in February. It's nineteen 157 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:09.080 eighty six, and she decided to catch the train home 158 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.879 from a dinner out with a couple of her nursing friends. 159 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:16.919 She arrived at Blacktown Station, which is out in Sydney's 160 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:19.799 out of West. Went to ring her father to pick 161 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:24.120 her up from the station, but the telephone, the public telephone, 162 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:27.399 was broken, so she decided to just walk the kilometer 163 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:34.679 home and from there she was grabbed and what she 164 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:39.279 endured over the next five to six hours is animalistic, 165 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:41.440 horrifying torture. 166 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:48.960 Talk about John Raymond Travers, he lived in Blacktown as well. 167 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:51.799 Tell us about his background as you write in this book. 168 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:57.600 So, John Travis was a kid that was in and 169 00:09:57.639 --> 00:10:04.399 out of prison. He had a lot of charges of 170 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:09.039 sexual misconduct. He was a calf thief. He'd done a 171 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:11.360 bit of time. He was one of those bad kids 172 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.600 who was able to create a crowd around him of 173 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:20.679 other children who grew up in these lower socio economic 174 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:25.879 areas to create a gang and though some of the 175 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.240 boys that he would have in this gang were older 176 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:33.440 than him, they were thirty five, he was able to 177 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:39.840 create a pack mentality that whatever he said goes. And 178 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:42.879 so when Travis decided that he wanted to grab a 179 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:45.480 girl and they went for a drive around black Town, 180 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.200 the others never even questioned what he wanted to do 181 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:50.799 because they knew what was coming. 182 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.639 Right now, tell us a little bit about this group 183 00:10:56.679 --> 00:10:59.759 of people that John Travers has around him and that 184 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:02.639 are convinced to do most anything for a laugh and 185 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:03.320 for a thrill. 186 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:10.279 Yeah, well, there's the three Murphy brothers and also Michael Murdock. 187 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.240 Now Michael Murdoch at the time of Anita's death was 188 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:17.000 actually on parole for another violent crime. So it was 189 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:21.559 it was one of these moments that he was able 190 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:25.879 to egg John Travis on. I don't know if that's 191 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:27.919 the term that you guys use, but he was able 192 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:31.279 to encourage Travis to say, yeah, let's get him, let 193 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:36.399 let's get her. Sorry. So these boys had, you know, 194 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:40.639 long long lists of truanty car theft as well, they'd 195 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:44.200 beaten up some of the local kids. They were boys 196 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:47.159 and men that the police knew very very well, which 197 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.159 is why it didn't take them very long to get 198 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:53.799 them afterwards, because they were keen to tell people that 199 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.159 they grabbed Ashilas as they said, and and had raped 200 00:11:58.159 --> 00:11:58.840 and killed her. 201 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.000 About also that the background of Travers is again before 202 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.519 these boys know anything about this, the Travers has a background, 203 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:13.000 and an you rate about a an earlier attack where 204 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:18.679 that woman goes to police and says something regarding each 205 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:20.840 av status. Tell us a little bit about that. 206 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.360 Yes, he'd actually raped a couple of guys in Perth 207 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.840 when he was over there, which is in Western Australia. 208 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.879 So and one of them had actually told Travers that 209 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:37.240 he had HIV. So it was something that Travis would 210 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.240 would use when he would sexually assault people. He would say, 211 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:43.399 you know, well, I've probably just given you AIDS. So 212 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:47.360 to this day he's still alive. So we're not sure 213 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:52.000 if he ended up with HIV, but the suggestion is 214 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:55.200 that he does, but he hasn't got full blown AIDS. 215 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.480 Let's get back to to Anita's abduction and what happens 216 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:07.120 her parents, Gary and Grace Lynch assume you rate to 217 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:10.039 assume that she stayed at her friend's place after dinner 218 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:13.080 and that's why she getn't called from the Blacktown station. 219 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:16.840 These guys had looked for a place ideal like this, 220 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:21.519 isolated and be able to abduct a woman. What happens 221 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:24.600 to her? And meanwhile, what do the parents? What is 222 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:25.440 their response? 223 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:31.480 Well, Gary and Grace Lynch, they ended up actually founding 224 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:35.320 a lot of victim family support groups in this country. 225 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:38.639 So this is how this case changed a lot of 226 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:42.519 things here. But as you said, they assumed that she'd 227 00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.399 stayed in Sydney because she was going to a restaurant afterwards. 228 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:49.159 She had an early shift the next day, so Gary 229 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.600 had been up a couple of times. He actually said 230 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:55.200 that he had almost a nightmare of vision, that he 231 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:58.720 saw this evilness and he would remember it for the 232 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.799 rest of his life. Believe it was John Travis's face. 233 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.360 But whilst they were sort of pacing a bit and 234 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:08.120 wondering if she was coming home or not coming home. 235 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.799 Of course that this is the days before cell phones, 236 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:18.080 Travis and the other men grabbed Anita, dragged her into 237 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:20.519 the car and she was naked pretty much straight away. 238 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:25.120 They actually punched her and beat her quite quickly because 239 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:30.080 she was menstruating, so they were a bit pissed off 240 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.679 that there was blood around when they sort of hadn't 241 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.159 done that to her. So once she was in the car, 242 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:40.360 they stole her purse, held her down in the back seat, 243 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:42.759 and went and got petrol first so they would have 244 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:47.039 plenty of time using her cash from her purse. They 245 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:50.559 then drove around Blacktown for several hours, each of them 246 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.120 taking turns getting into the back seat with her and 247 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.720 penetrating all of her orifices, and often two and three 248 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.240 at once, so this is a pretty brutal attack. Finally, 249 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.759 they turned off onto Green Road, which is a street 250 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:12.120 which is right beside a highway, but if you stood 251 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:15.440 where she was killed is so isolated even though there 252 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.080 is a thousand cars driving pass. It's quite horrific in 253 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:23.840 that it's isolated but very public. They dragged her through 254 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:29.279 a barbed wire fence and absolutely grazed and brutalized her 255 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:34.000 skin with that. They then took turns again in the 256 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:38.240 field until they decided that she'd had enough, and this 257 00:15:38.440 --> 00:15:42.879 was five hours later, and then Travis head back to 258 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.600 the car, decided no, no, I think she has to go, 259 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:49.679 went back, stood on her back, pulled back her head 260 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.080 and slid her throat. Now, it took him three goes 261 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:55.840 to do that, and though she had very little fight 262 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:57.600 left in her, she still put up her hands and 263 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.360 he sapped her fingers as well, so we can see 264 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.000 that she kept fighting till that very end, and they 265 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:06.960 just left her in that field and she was found 266 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.960 the next day when the farmer who lived there realized 267 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.000 that his cows were acting strange and he went to 268 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:20.080 investigate and found her very bloody, beaten, defiled corpse. And 269 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:27.080 it's just a horrific case that the whole country instantly 270 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:31.399 had an outrage that these animals, for want of a 271 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.440 better word, needed to be found quickly, and you know, 272 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:39.240 people were going to lynch them if they found themselves. 273 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:43.519 There was screams for the death penalty to be reintroduced 274 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.600 as we found out more and more of the brutality 275 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:50.080 that she had suffered. It took them about eleven days 276 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:55.639 to find the boys, and one of them, Les Murphy, 277 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.320 did the youngest of the brothers, actually wet himself, and 278 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.039 that ended up being front page news here that they 279 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.919 took a photo of him in handcuffs with a great 280 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.680 big wet patch on the front of his jeans, just 281 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.640 to prove that he was scared but when he got arrested, 282 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.920 because he knew that it wasn't going to be fun, 283 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.559 and he actually suffered quite a lot in prison, actually 284 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.920 most of them did. There's a hose and why I 285 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.319 think that a lot of people would probably know about that. 286 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:28.079 I won't go into where people were brutalized for what 287 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:31.319 they've done to others. So that is something that had 288 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:35.599 happened to Les, purely for what he'd done to Anita. 289 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:40.519 You right, though, this again a very movieue scene about 290 00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:46.839 John McCaughey. Maybe the pronunciation's wrong about people that saw 291 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:53.480 the woman out saw her dragged into the vehicle. And 292 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:55.319 then he went home and told his brother and they 293 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.559 decided to drive around if they were able to spot 294 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:02.480 the car. And then they saw a car, but tell 295 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:03.359 us about that. 296 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:08.359 It was the wrong make, and being a car person, 297 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.799 he should have known the car better. But when you're 298 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:17.079 in a situation like that, you do often missing. So 299 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:20.240 so he had had seen her being dragged in, he 300 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:22.759 had chased the car thro a bit it got away 301 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:24.799 from him. So yes, he went and go got his 302 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:28.039 brother and they drove around and they actually spotted the 303 00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:32.799 right car near Green road, but they didn't think it 304 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:34.559 was the right car because he said it was this 305 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:37.680 sort of car, and it was actually a similar but 306 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:42.000 different sort of car. So there was sly I've got 307 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.480 chills now. There was an opportunity that she could have 308 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:50.359 been saved, but they just missed it. So it's heartbreaking 309 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:52.440 for them, and they had a lot of guilt, and 310 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.160 they had to go to trial and explain what they'd seen, 311 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.039 and they helped put together some of the timeline. But 312 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.559 you know, there's always heroes out there, and it could 313 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:05.319 have been a very different outcome. 314 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.279 One of the unlikely heroes. And I'm losing the using 315 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.720 the word loosely, but we still get to the same 316 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:20.720 goal of justice. Travers talks about. You'd write about Travers 317 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.200 and requesting a police Uh, well, his phone call to 318 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.519 his aunt to bring him some cigarettes, and earlier in 319 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.400 the book you write about some of the conversations he 320 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:34.359 has with his aunt previous to this. So tell us 321 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:38.359 about the rule that his aunt has in Travers's downfall. 322 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:45.720 Well, she she was the person that they that he trusted. 323 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:51.279 The bost now is she is his uncle's girlfriend, so 324 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:55.079 they weren't even married, and she was just someone that 325 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.440 he felt that he could confide in. So what happened 326 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:02.960 was that the police knew this, and so they asked 327 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.680 her to slowly sort of peel away the layers to 328 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:10.599 see what he would tell her, and slowly, slowly, slowly, 329 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.119 he started to explain the story. Sorry, there's a dog 330 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:19.240 in the background. And it got to a point that 331 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:22.400 he said to her, yes, we killed her, and they 332 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:29.680 had that recorded. So those recordings actually went into trial. 333 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.799 So when the trial occurred, he actually had to have 334 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.759 a separate trial because he then pled guilty knowing that 335 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:40.920 they had him on the case. Right, So, sorry about that. 336 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:41.839 I can't help the dog. 337 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.759 What is the media response? Though, you write about the 338 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:50.200 media response, you talk about the outreach, but tell us 339 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.279 more about what is a response from the public. What's 340 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:56.079 the response from the media with this? 341 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.759 Well, this was the case did this? This is the 342 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:07.200 case that we use for every other yardstick that all 343 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.400 other cases are compared to because of the brutalization that 344 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:14.880 happened to Anita. So so what happened was that the 345 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:19.599 media decided that this was the one that they would 346 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:22.720 get for the reintroduction of the death penalty. People actually 347 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:27.079 turned up with nooses at the trial, people turned up 348 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:32.160 trying to get these these men. They you know, it 349 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.160 was almost like a lynching. They went into the police station, 350 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:38.880 the courthouse. They actually had to do a closed court 351 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:41.839 purely because so many people wanted to get have these 352 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:46.319 boys and destroy them. 353 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:50.400 What happens in the trial in terms of sentencing and 354 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:55.640 the recommendation, it's interesting compared to Canadian law, we have 355 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.119 no provision like this, and American laves different. Tell us 356 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.160 what the judge recommends in this case and the term 357 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:05.240 we'll hear more in this book. With all of these 358 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:06.920 many of these kill it. 359 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.640 So because we don't have the death penalty and life 360 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.039 can mean fifteen to twenty years, we actually have a 361 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:19.160 sentence here could never to be released. So that means 362 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:23.480 that there is no possibility of parole basically when you 363 00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.119 leave prisoners because you're in a box. And these are 364 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.680 some of the first killers that had this sentence set. 365 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:33.839 There's people from a lot that have had it since, 366 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:37.400 but these were the boys that sort of made this 367 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.960 a policy. I mean, we'll get into Crump and Baker too, 368 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.960 and they had a similar sentence. We used to say 369 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.200 you should never be released, and so then some of 370 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.359 these killers were able to have a sentence determined. I'm 371 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:55.279 saying that it was too vague, but now the judges 372 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:58.640 are able to say you are sentenced to never be released, 373 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:02.759 and that is just means that, yes, you will not 374 00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:04.559 get out on the shore. Inner Pine box. 375 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:11.039 Well, you include two cases. And what's interesting, right after 376 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:15.279 reading this first incredible case, that you have a case 377 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:19.920 of Janine Boulding and right after that Sandra Wahre. And 378 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:23.519 in many many ways, both of these cases after that 379 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:29.759 are almost copybat copycat killings. Any comment on that before 380 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:31.920 we talk about a case that you had mentioned. It's 381 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:34.319 close to you, Graham Thorne. 382 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.000 The Jenine Bolding case is one that not a lot 383 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.440 of people know about, but when they do know about it, 384 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:42.799 they instantly juxtapose it with you need a copycase. So 385 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.920 Janine was also taken from a train station. She just 386 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:50.839 left work, she was heading home. She got grabbed by 387 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:54.200 a group of children. In fact, well, one of her 388 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:57.599 killers was fourteen years old, and he has been sentenced 389 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:01.200 to never be released from prison. And he's one of 390 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:04.559 the few child killers in this country, not that we 391 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.160 have a lot anyway, but he's one of the few 392 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.480 that has actually been named in the press and it's 393 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.000 quite shocking, but purely because he will never get out 394 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:17.319 of prison. He's been in prison since fourteen. Now he's 395 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.519 around my age, so he's around forty five, and he 396 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.000 has the rest of his life and he will never 397 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.480 see the outside of a prison. 398 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:33.440 Wow. Let's talk about the case of Graham foreign And 399 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:38.680 as you mentioned, why is this a particular personal interest 400 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:40.400 to you or your connection to it? 401 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:45.200