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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week,
Speaker 3: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 6: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime
Speaker 6: history and the authors that have written about them. Richard
Speaker 6: and Victoria Tynes worst when their thirteen year old daughter,
Speaker 6: Kelly Ann, vanished from their quiet suburban community of Valley Stream,
Speaker 6: New York, on March third, nineteen eighty nine. But the
Speaker 6: nightmare to come was worse than they could ever imagine.
Speaker 6: Only five doors away, in the home of John and
Speaker 6: Elizabeth Gallub, police found Kelly Ann's body stuffed in a
Speaker 6: plastic garbage bag. She'd been brutally beaten, stabbed, strangled, and mutilated.
Speaker 6: After weeks of intense investigation, police arrested the Gallub's twenty
Speaker 6: one year old son, Robert, a reclusive young man obsessed
Speaker 6: with bodybuilding and given to fits of rage. The sensational
Speaker 6: trial and subsequent conviction of Robert Gallub shocked the nation
Speaker 6: and tore the once peaceful community apart. Neighbors took sides,
Speaker 6: so did the media, and no one who lived on
Speaker 6: Horton Road would ever be the same. Acclaimed journalist Ronald J.
Speaker 6: Watkins takes you into the dark heart and the idyllic
Speaker 6: American suburb where the savage murder of a young girl
Speaker 6: shattered the innocence of a town forever. The book this
Speaker 6: evening that we'll be discussing is Against Her Will by
Speaker 6: Ronald J. Watkins, And hopefully Ronald J. Watkins is ready
Speaker 6: on the phone, but we don't have Ronald J. Watkins,
Speaker 6: so we have a problem. So anyway, that's the outline
Speaker 6: of the book, Against Her Will. Very well written, very
Speaker 6: fast paced, lots of twists and turns, no foregone conclusions
Speaker 6: in this book whatsoever. Ronald J. Watkins is an author
Speaker 6: of I believe thirty books, not all of them true crime,
Speaker 6: some I guess fictional crime novels, but he has done
Speaker 6: a fair amount of true crime as well, and this
Speaker 6: book is an excellent read. Against Her Will by Ronald J. Watkins.
Speaker 6: I apologize for the confusion on last week's program with
Speaker 6: Wensley Clarkson. I did not realize that Wensley Clarkson resided
Speaker 6: in London. I don't know, not to blame anyone, but
Speaker 6: in my emails, I'm very clear that the guests need
Speaker 6: to call into a New Jersey number or a US
Speaker 6: number to be able in order to facilitate this interview,
Speaker 6: as do I as well. We both call into a
Speaker 6: number I believe in New Jersey and that's the main switchboard,
Speaker 6: and that's the way these interviews are facilitated. Now, people
Speaker 6: living in London. If I were to know that, and
Speaker 6: they were to realize that this is the call they
Speaker 6: need to make is into a US number, then that
Speaker 6: long distance call might be quite prohibitive. So my apologies
Speaker 6: for not finding out where he was residing. I just
Speaker 6: assumed he was an American author since he was published
Speaker 6: by Kensington Press, and most of those authors reside in America,
Speaker 6: not all of them, obviously, so I'm not sure if
Speaker 6: he is a former resident of the US. But regardless,
Speaker 6: I apologized for last week's scheduled interview with Wensley Clarkson
Speaker 6: with his excellent book A Child's Prey. Hopefully we may
Speaker 6: have him on at another time, but I'm not sure
Speaker 6: of that. We are still looking to get confirmation. I
Speaker 6: believe that Terry Sullivan, the prosecutor for Killer Clown, is
Speaker 6: still scheduled to come on the program, but he was
Speaker 6: and is very heavily involved in the Casey Anthony case,
Speaker 6: and I'm sure he would like to speak to people
Speaker 6: about that case as well. So that case seems to
Speaker 6: be going on and is quite lengthy. And have had
Speaker 6: one guest talk about the Casey Anthony case with her book,
Speaker 6: Diane Fanning, So we have covered that case so far,
Speaker 6: but now they're in the trial that was the first book.
Speaker 6: It was very quite odd that I found where there
Speaker 6: had not been a actual conviction or allusion to the trial,
Speaker 6: and yet there was still a book out published already
Speaker 6: which based on speculation more than obviously the conclusion to
Speaker 6: a trial or from a conviction or some other conclusion
Speaker 6: to that trial, like I had said. So it was
Speaker 6: quite an interesting development because Kensington, as I know, has
Speaker 6: a rule of not dealing or publishing or wanting to
Speaker 6: deal with cases that have not had a resolution in
Speaker 6: the courts. So I would think that that would be
Speaker 6: probably a general rule, and it seems to be. If
Speaker 6: there is anything that is happening that a lot of
Speaker 6: cases that receive the immediate television coverage, for example on
Speaker 6: Fox or CNN. I think what the publishers are responding
Speaker 6: to is that people will focus on a certain case
Speaker 6: for a certain period of time, but then that case
Speaker 6: and that subsequent interest but will be replaced by another
Speaker 6: case that will replace that one, usually more dramatic or
Speaker 6: more salacious or more sensational than the previous one, and
Speaker 6: then we seem to forget some of the cases, incredible cases,
Speaker 6: incredible crimes, and incredible stories. So I think what the
Speaker 6: publishers are trying to do is capitalize on that interest
Speaker 6: at the time that people are still interested in, capitalize
Speaker 6: on that and put out their book at that time
Speaker 6: rather than waiting because sometimes they can be considerable time
Speaker 6: between arrests and convictions for various reasons, and people tend
Speaker 6: not to have long memories. I apologize for not having
Speaker 6: my guest Ronald J. Watkins on the line. Sometimes the
Speaker 6: Central Standard time that I am in the zone I'm
Speaker 6: in is confusing to some people. Again, I'm going to
Speaker 6: make it a standard to convert the time so that
Speaker 6: they know exactly in their time zone what time they
Speaker 6: are to call the program. Sometimes there are legitimate delays.
Speaker 6: I'm asking for these very very busy journalists and authors
Speaker 6: and sometimes lawyers and people with law practices and investigative
Speaker 6: companies to take out of their crowded schedule to come
Speaker 6: on my program for an hour and talk about their books.
Speaker 6: So I really do appreciate the time that they do
Speaker 6: put forth to be able to do these programs. And
Speaker 6: I apologize for those that tuned into the program to
Speaker 6: listen to a live program with an author that they
Speaker 6: had already saw the show description and we're anticipating an
Speaker 6: interview with that author, so we'll all if you can
Speaker 6: put up with me for a little bit, we'll just wait.
Speaker 6: And I've sent an email to and maybe he's just
Speaker 6: a little bit behind, and I'm hoping he will join
Speaker 6: us very soon and we can talk about his book
Speaker 6: that I'm prepared to discuss very again well written book.
Speaker 6: A lot of true crime is there's varying degrees of writers,
Speaker 6: and I find that in my experience that a lot
Speaker 6: of writers that are as Ronald Jay Watkins demonstrates in
Speaker 6: his book his vast experience even writing the thirty Books
Speaker 6: gives him a expertise of sorts, but also his background,
Speaker 6: investigative background, and so he is really I think brings
Speaker 6: that to the book itself and to his writing, and
Speaker 6: so you have a very detailed book. But at the
Speaker 6: same time, there is so many He's picked a great
Speaker 6: story and with his access, there's so many twists in
Speaker 6: turns that you virtually are It's very much like a
Speaker 6: fictional story in the twists and turn and sitting on
Speaker 6: the edge of your seat and some of the things
Speaker 6: that you thought were foregone conclusions, so surprises and when
Speaker 6: things are revealed, and very very good in characterizing and
Speaker 6: drawing us into the characters and also painting a very
Speaker 6: graphic picture of what this crime really entails, because many
Speaker 6: murders are obviously there's no nice murder, and they're all
Speaker 6: graphic and disturbing and horrible and terrible. But there are
Speaker 6: some killers that for various reasons, when you're talking mutilation,
Speaker 6: when you talk torture, when you talk you talk of
Speaker 6: those kinds of crimes, when it's just not murdered, there
Speaker 6: is much more. It's even more repulsive and disturbing and horrible.
Speaker 6: And this murder has some of those elements, especially given
Speaker 6: when you're talking about a relatively young man a que
Speaker 6: of this murder, and we'll find out. Like I say,
Speaker 6: it's amazing that there are no foregone conclusions in this book.
Speaker 6: It's very interesting how it's constructed, but also how the
Speaker 6: story on wines as well. What may look like a
Speaker 6: fairly easy case to conclude isn't at all for very
Speaker 6: good reasons. And so it's a very interesting take on
Speaker 6: a case. And I hope we get Ronald On to
Speaker 6: discuss it very soon. Anyway, next week, if you're going
Speaker 6: to tune in again, I apologize for this slip up.
Speaker 6: Next week, Ron Francell and he is the author of
Speaker 6: many true crime books, including the classic The Darkest Night,
Speaker 6: and his latest book is Delivered from Evil. And these
Speaker 6: are tales from mass murderers, survivors of mass murders, people
Speaker 6: who refuse to die, who had a survival instinct, people
Speaker 6: that fought hard and long to survive and live to
Speaker 6: tell the tale and were and have told the tale.
Speaker 6: And Ron Francell, an excellent journalist and author, a best
Speaker 6: selling author and a real favorite among true crime fans,
Speaker 6: is going to do a book that's quite unique even
Speaker 6: for him, and tackles a subject not really dealt with
Speaker 6: too often at all. So it's a multiple it's a
Speaker 6: many stories of different survivors, not just one survivor, of
Speaker 6: different survivors of mass murder. And that book is called
Speaker 6: Delivered from Evil, and that's Ron Francell've been very excited
Speaker 6: to have him on. He is, like I say, a
Speaker 6: big favorite among true crime readers and gets consistently great
Speaker 6: reviews on True Crime book reviews and Amazon book reviews.
Speaker 6: He's a big He's a great writer, and this story
Speaker 6: sounds fascinating and I haven't started it yet, but I'm
Speaker 6: looking forward to reading it starting tomorrow, and I'm sure
Speaker 6: we'll have a great interview about his latest book, his
Speaker 6: latest and greatest book, Delivered from Evil. After that, we
Speaker 6: have let me see, we have Anthony D. Stefano and
Speaker 6: he's going to be talking about King of the Godfathers,
Speaker 6: so we talked. I talked about that a couple of
Speaker 6: weeks ago. We're going to do a couple organized crime stories.
Speaker 6: And then there's another veteran organized crime expert, Danny Griffin.
Speaker 6: He has a show on blog talk radio as well,
Speaker 6: and I want him to come on and talk about
Speaker 6: the Vegas mob. It's not some mob stories that I
Speaker 6: have read about myself, and so he has the inside
Speaker 6: scoop and the behind scenes story about vague mobsters. So
Speaker 6: that's Denny Griffin, veteran journalist and veteran law enforcement officer,
Speaker 6: person involved in the legal system, so he has a
Speaker 6: vast experience as well in his take on the Las
Speaker 6: Vegas mafia and mobsters. And after that we have Kevin Sullivan.
Speaker 6: We're going to be talking about the Bundy murders. He's
Speaker 6: written and done extensive research on further Bundy murders. One
Speaker 6: of the most famous serial killers ever, certainly one of
Speaker 6: the most interesting, charismatic and fascinating and infamous and deranged
Speaker 6: serial killers of all time, Ted Bundy, and Kevin Sullivan
Speaker 6: has written an amazing book talking about other crimes and
Speaker 6: other things of interest to all people who may be
Speaker 6: interested in ten but ten Bundy. Of course I've spoken
Speaker 6: of this before. The definitive book about Ted Bundy is
Speaker 6: obviously while I must read is The Stranger Beside Me
Speaker 6: by and Rule a fantastic book, and probably the way
Speaker 6: I got hooked on true crime is by reading that book.
Speaker 6: Now a major, major bestseller and one of the most
Speaker 6: the biggest, probably in the top while it is in
Speaker 6: the top five two crime books of all time and
Speaker 6: Rules Stranger Beside Me. Kevin Sullivan has done this research
Speaker 6: and provided much more information and a different different perspective
Speaker 6: than Stranger Beside Me obviously, and Rule worked with Ted
Speaker 6: Bundy and included all those feelings and all that interaction
Speaker 6: and all that perspective, and Kevin Sullivan comes from a
Speaker 6: completely different perspective to talk about Bundy murders, more and
Speaker 6: new information, still very very shocking and essential must read
Speaker 6: as well, because Bundy really does deserve as many books
Speaker 6: as you're able to find on Ted Bundy, So that's
Speaker 6: going to be fantastic. I have a couple more cases
Speaker 6: as well that I'm gonna be talking about that I
Speaker 6: just got turned onto as well, and one of those
Speaker 6: is a woman named Jeanie mcdonna, and Jeanie McDonough and
Speaker 6: her husband overpowered a killer that was about to slit
Speaker 6: their daughter's throat, and it ended up the killer was
Speaker 6: a serial killer who had killed a couple of other
Speaker 6: women and attacked another one, So they ended up being
Speaker 6: the reason they helped capture a serial killer. In their
Speaker 6: book is called Caught in the Act and it's by
Speaker 6: Genie mcdonaugh and paul I Hope. I don't get this wrong,
Speaker 6: but Lenardo. So anyway, that's going to be May eleventh,
Speaker 6: that's going to be Genie McDonough, an excellent book from
Speaker 6: again a different perspective to almost potential victims that fought
Speaker 6: hard to overpower this killer and end up cracking the
Speaker 6: case by their actions, saving their daughter and also capturing
Speaker 6: a serial killer. And so the very heroic efforts. And
Speaker 6: now we'll have a book that very very interesting perspective
Speaker 6: of her husband and herself and another author talking about
Speaker 6: how this happened and how they brought this serial killer
Speaker 6: to justice. So that's Caught in the Act. I have
Speaker 6: another book that I'm going to be discussing as well.
Speaker 6: Kim Cantrell from True Crime Book Reviews introduced me to
Speaker 6: an author. It's about another serial killer. Let me see.
Speaker 6: It is about Michael Griesbach or Greisbach. I'm not sure
Speaker 6: how to pronounce this, but g r I E. S.
Speaker 6: B Acch. This is the story of the serial killer.
Speaker 6: I apologize for this, but anyway, it's about a serial
Speaker 6: killer and the perspective of this author in finding and
Speaker 6: having this the hunt for this serial killer and the
Speaker 6: investigation into this serial killer. I apologize for not having
Speaker 6: that title in front of me, but it's I will
Speaker 6: get back to you. That's from May eighteenth. So there
Speaker 6: are a lot of programs to look forward to in
Speaker 6: the near future, and so stay tuned. And again I
Speaker 6: apologize for this this step with this guest this evening,
Speaker 6: and I just look and he's still not on the air.
Speaker 6: So if anybody were to like to want to desire
Speaker 6: to call in to give me any requests or ask
Speaker 6: any questions about anything about my book Trophy Kill, or
Speaker 6: about any other I'll tell me guests or any guests
Speaker 6: that I've already interviewed. I have been getting some requests
Speaker 6: for me to look into books that listeners have requested,
Speaker 6: so I appreciate that, and again I will look into
Speaker 6: those authors and see if they're available if they like
Speaker 6: to come on the program. And I appreciate any ideas
Speaker 6: on programs in the future concerning books that you have
Speaker 6: read and you think will be great interviews for the
Speaker 6: program itself. Now, what I also wanted to talk about too,
Speaker 6: is that what I've said a couple of years ago,
Speaker 6: and I've mentioned a couple of times when I've had
Speaker 6: the chance to editorialize here, is that what was interesting
Speaker 6: to me is that I've see development in my idea
Speaker 6: that true crime is going mainstream, especially television and to
Speaker 6: a lesser degree, I guess Hollywood. My information was based
Speaker 6: on watching The Zodiac and how big that movie was,
Speaker 6: and also Capodi, and also that there was two movies
Speaker 6: about Capodi and in Cold Blood. You know, of course,
Speaker 6: In Cold Blood probably the biggest selling true crime book ever.
Speaker 6: But what I'm finding is that we see some breakthroughs
Speaker 6: with Kensington author, and she's published with other publishing companies
Speaker 6: as well. But a well known true crime author, Aphrodite Jones,
Speaker 6: has a program on ID Discovery Channel, and so that's
Speaker 6: an interesting leap from true crime author to television. Another
Speaker 6: author that was on my program, M William Phelps, has
Speaker 6: made the leap as well, being involved in television. And
Speaker 6: the program is still in the creative process, but they're
Speaker 6: very well into it and it's going to be serial
Speaker 6: killer stories, unsolved serial killer stories and I guess those
Speaker 6: profiles and he'll be hosting and involved in the production
Speaker 6: of this and involved in a big way in the
Speaker 6: production of this and taking it from again, taking his
Speaker 6: writing experience in true crime considerable experience, and putting this
Speaker 6: and getting involved in making the crossover into mainstream or
Speaker 6: at least television, which I'll expand an audience for again
Speaker 6: this medium, I believe. What I did also see as
Speaker 6: well as Corey Mitchell, another veteran true crime author, hosting
Speaker 6: a panel at the south By Southwest Music indiean film
Speaker 6: festival in Texas. Austin, Texas, I believe, But anyway, the
Speaker 6: south By Southwest, it's many years it's been running. Anyway,
Speaker 6: he had a panel with people that again had a
Speaker 6: background in true crime, who had made successful movies and
Speaker 6: or television programs involving true crime and some of the
Speaker 6: biggest true crime stories. And the gist of the panel was,
Speaker 6: and this was just a couple of weeks ago, is
Speaker 6: that you know how for true crime authors to make
Speaker 6: the transition and what the audience is, you know, the
Speaker 6: whole situation that faces the writer and the potential opportunities.
Speaker 6: I believe, I guess in that some of these people
Speaker 6: are making there's so many channels, there's so many opportunities.
Speaker 6: You can see some of the same things that happened
Speaker 6: years ago come back, you know, and horror movies are back.
Speaker 6: I'm over fifty years of age, so I could see
Speaker 6: what was happening in the seventies, what was happening in comics,
Speaker 6: what was happening magazines, what was happening in movies Hollywood
Speaker 6: A movies, B movies in what was happening in literature.
Speaker 6: So you're seeing some of the same things. Because this
Speaker 6: true crime is a genre that goes up and down
Speaker 6: in terms of popularity like some other things have as well.
Speaker 6: But I think that the popularity for true crime is expanding,
Speaker 6: and I think it is going to cross over and
Speaker 6: you're going to see more television and film adaptations of
Speaker 6: great stories, very much like some of the ones that
Speaker 6: I'm doing on my program, some of the characters like
Speaker 6: John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer. To a
Speaker 6: certain degree, you know, there is no fictional equivalent of
Speaker 6: these stories. You know, even criminal minds seems to have
Speaker 6: so many logical reasons why some of these people kill,
Speaker 6: and they seem to be organic brain disorders or traumatic
Speaker 6: events these people's lives, and you know that's and then
Speaker 6: as a result, they profile these people and not to
Speaker 6: say they don't just you know, also showcase just evil
Speaker 6: characters as well, But there seems to be a fair
Speaker 6: amount of explanation, which includes insanity and trauma for these
Speaker 6: people killing. And in my experience with true crime, I
Speaker 6: am amazed at how many psychopathic killers there are in
Speaker 6: all kinds of instances. People that have the capacity to
Speaker 6: kill their parents for no reason whatsoever, people that are
Speaker 6: able to kill children, or you know, the list goes
Speaker 6: on and on. I don't have to repeat it for you.
Speaker 6: But the lack of conscience, remorse, our capacity to kill,
Speaker 6: may mutilate, display, laugh, not consider these people as anything
Speaker 6: but just trash is unfortunately a reoccurring theme in true crime.
Speaker 6: There doesn't seem to be so many the Burn Farm,
Speaker 6: which is one of the last programs I did. Burn Farm.
Speaker 6: You know, that woman was insane, but whether she stays
Speaker 6: in a mental institution or whether she's in prison would
Speaker 6: make very little difference. You could say, well, we could
Speaker 6: help that person out an insane assam where they deserve
Speaker 6: to be an insane and som rather than a prison. Somehow,
Speaker 6: I just don't think it's going to make that much difference,
Speaker 6: And as a result, you know, I can't see much
Speaker 6: of a debate on this, but certainly that woman exhibited
Speaker 6: what I would consider it to be insane you know, characteristics. Absolutely, However,
Speaker 6: I mean the rationales if you're capable of doing something,
Speaker 6: if you lose said, if you try to cover up
Speaker 6: your tracks or.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: So there's always that and I like American justice in
Speaker 6: terms of that point where they're still trying to get
Speaker 6: you to look at the responsibility for that other person's life.
Speaker 6: And so regardless of being insane or or having insane
Speaker 6: thoughts of retribution or righteousness or they had it coming
Speaker 6: to them or whatever it was, it's still the intent
Speaker 6: to kill still outweighs everything else. And so in the end,
Speaker 6: very you know, when they do have the ability to convict,
Speaker 6: they certainly do. And I think that's the main point
Speaker 6: when you're dealing with cold blooded killers. That's what people want,
Speaker 6: and that's what people expect, is to get the full
Speaker 6: extent of the law hand it to these people in
Speaker 6: terms of sentencing. Now we still don't have Ronald J. Watkins.
Speaker 6: Maybe he thought it was an hour different. I really
Speaker 6: apologize for this for those that are listen to me,
Speaker 6: kind of repeat some of the stuff I did a
Speaker 6: couple of weeks ago. I may take this time to
Speaker 6: talk about Trophy Kill. And this is new information and
Speaker 6: so if I have this opportunity till we get Ronald J.
Speaker 6: Watkins on, I'll spend the next little bit telling you
Speaker 6: the latest development with the killer that is involved in
Speaker 6: my book, Trophy Kill. I'll give a brief synopsis of
Speaker 6: the story for those people that don't know. Trophy Kill
Speaker 6: is an incredible tale of a psychopathic killer that I
Speaker 6: corresponded with briefly. He walked into a police station. Let
Speaker 6: me start again. On July one, the movie Shall We
Speaker 6: Dance was being filmed in Winnipeg, Susan Sarandon called police
Speaker 6: to report some jewelry, including her gold necklace situars in
Speaker 6: her movies, stolen from her trailer. On July second, while
Speaker 6: police were still looking for that jewelry, Sydney Teerhues calmly
Speaker 6: walked into a police station and claimed that he had
Speaker 6: met a man, Robin Green the day before. They shared drinks.
Speaker 6: He passed out intoxicated, and when he awoke he found
Speaker 6: his acquaintance the victim cut up in his bathtub. Police
Speaker 6: thought he was kidding because of his demeanor, but they
Speaker 6: escorted them back to his rented room and found the
Speaker 6: body of the victim dismembered into eight pieces, crudely reassembled
Speaker 6: for shock value. The body had been disemboweled and castrated
Speaker 6: and decapitation saw on in half, but the eyes were removed.
Speaker 6: There was some dissection of mutilation, but more importantly, all
Speaker 6: of the internal organs had been removed and were never found.
Speaker 6: Susan Randon's gold necklace was found about three feet away.
Speaker 6: Now I realize that this person was psychopathic from the
Speaker 6: interviews he did immediately after he was arrested. That was
Speaker 6: pretty obvious to me. A few weeks later, the police
Speaker 6: returned the jewelry back to the shall We Dance set
Speaker 6: and said that they didn't think there was any evidence
Speaker 6: linking the jewelry to the motive for the murder. I
Speaker 6: thought otherwise. I started corresponding with the killer to write
Speaker 6: a book about this story, and for one year I
Speaker 6: got all of his background, all of his early life,
Speaker 6: everything about his upbringing, and after nine months, I then,
Speaker 6: after gaining his trust, asked him to give me some
Speaker 6: information about the day in question. He sent me a
Speaker 6: series of letters outlining every graphic and horrific detail of
Speaker 6: what he actually did the dismemberment. He is a necrofile,
Speaker 6: so I won't go into that. This man referred to
Speaker 6: his victim as a human trophy and talked about his
Speaker 6: utter enjoyment in the entire event dismemberment, necrophilia, autopsy, dissection,
Speaker 6: removal of the organs, everything n said eighteen diagrams as well.
Speaker 6: He posed a question with serial killer did he most
Speaker 6: closely resemble? And anyway we fast forward to the trial
Speaker 6: in two thousand and eight, I become the star witness
Speaker 6: for the prosecution. I brought all of the information to
Speaker 6: the prosecution in two thousand and five after one year,
Speaker 6: and as a result, I became the star witness.
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Speaker 6: The lawyer for the defendant is the most prolific and
Speaker 6: experienced murder trail lawyer in English speaking world, having defended
Speaker 6: more killers than anyone else in the English speaking world.
Speaker 6: His name is Greg Brodsky. If he were to discredit
Speaker 6: me at the trial, his client would walk based on
Speaker 6: Canadian law five years custody times two times double credit
Speaker 6: for pre trial custody and with manslaughter laws he would
Speaker 6: walk out a free man. That was the point of
Speaker 6: the whole story. That's why I wrote this book is
Speaker 6: the sheer absurdity of this I knew this case would
Speaker 6: demonstrate the absurdity of the person who was capable of
Speaker 6: doing this Jack the Ripper horror spectacle. What I did
Speaker 6: get was much more corroborating evidence of his psychopathic psychopathology,
Speaker 6: the real story behind what happened, and why, the role
Speaker 6: of Susan Sarandon's jewelry in this entire horror spectacle, and
Speaker 6: as I concede other murders. My book has been out
Speaker 6: since last year. Trial transcripts have been included. They're very
Speaker 6: rare to see trial transcripts. Most people think they're boring.
Speaker 6: In this case, they're very, very engaging and put a
Speaker 6: lot of documents in the book, so it doesn't have
Speaker 6: a typical true crime look to the book. But the
Speaker 6: documents were the most powerful way for you to get
Speaker 6: the information on a very very powerful story. Now the
Speaker 6: book is called Trophy Kill, The Shall We Dance Murder,
Speaker 6: The Trial and Revelations of a Psychopathic Killer. Now, the
Speaker 6: book has been doing well, and I just you know,
Speaker 6: everybody's familiar with Facebook. I just received a message on
Speaker 6: Sunday morning that the killer, who's named Sidney Teerhuse, wanted
Speaker 6: to be friends on Facebook.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 6: I haven't corresponded with this guy since two thousand and five.
Speaker 6: We were not friends. We did not have a friend
Speaker 6: lee relationship. It was a business arrangement to write a book.
Speaker 6: He wanted the information to come out after the trial.
Speaker 6: I had to bring the evidence I had to the
Speaker 6: prosecution before the trial, and that's how I wound up
Speaker 6: Star Witness because of the journalism that I had done.
Speaker 6: One Now this person has said at trial that he
Speaker 6: hates me. This person what he's already been capable of.
Speaker 6: I do not want to correspond with this guy obviously. Now.
Speaker 6: What it looks like though, with some investigation, and I'm
Speaker 6: just looking into this now, is that somebody else has
Speaker 6: set up this Facebook page, and that's some very interesting things.
Speaker 6: His interests are cannibalism. He has now taken from my
Speaker 6: book the drawings which are very very graphic, and has
Speaker 6: posted him on a Facebook page that looks like and
Speaker 6: is meant to look like that. It is his Facebook
Speaker 6: page for himself, and so it includes everything about his
Speaker 6: life story, which apparently is in my book, and so
Speaker 6: that's what I'm going to be looking into. Number One,
Speaker 6: there was a story just recently, you know, in the
Speaker 6: last week or so on Fox News about a lobb
Speaker 6: tried to be passed in North Carolina preventing inmates from
Speaker 6: having a Facebook page or using social media sites for communication,
Speaker 6: making it an actual crime. But when I looked into
Speaker 6: other laws that certainly no inmate has the right to
Speaker 6: use the Internet or to post on social media sites,
Speaker 6: and with exceptions that there's people obviously accessing the Internet.
Speaker 6: So this is in Canada, and obviously he's in a
Speaker 6: federal prison, so it seems odd that he would be
Speaker 6: able to do this. Of course, I will look into
Speaker 6: that somebody else is putting this out on his behalf.
Speaker 6: I believe rather than he has, Rather than the option
Speaker 6: that he has nothing to do with this, this person
Speaker 6: is the most narcissistic and psychopathic killer that you have
Speaker 6: ever seen, and as a result, he is a media
Speaker 6: and loves and revels in every aspect of the murder
Speaker 6: and details of the murder and the notoriety. He just
Speaker 6: loves it. So this isn't keeping with that. But I
Speaker 6: really do think part of the story was that after
Speaker 6: he was convicted, he was testing the limits of the
Speaker 6: brand new Manitoba the province I live in law concerning
Speaker 6: criminals not being able to profit off the Nordara of
Speaker 6: their crime. By posting his paintings alongside descriptions of the
Speaker 6: murder itself and details of this horrific murder. He was investigated,
Speaker 6: but under the law he was not under that the
Speaker 6: writing of the law, he was not guilty of attempting
Speaker 6: to gain from the notoriety of his crimes when clearly,
Speaker 6: like I had asked the Manitoba justice, well, why couldn't
Speaker 6: you just make amendments to this law, because this is
Speaker 6: the guy that you would have to worry about. It's
Speaker 6: very rare that any criminal, even as in a position
Speaker 6: let alone, has the motivation to try to profit off
Speaker 6: then or to arrive of their crime. And when someone does,
Speaker 6: and you've made a law that's thirty years behind the
Speaker 6: American Son of Sam law, it maybe has time to
Speaker 6: make amendments so that you don't have this person continually
Speaker 6: able to get around this law that took you thirty
Speaker 6: years to draft and to institute. So, needless to say,
Speaker 6: this is another self promotion of this person, and it
Speaker 6: is a subtle threat to me as well that there
Speaker 6: are people there willing to try to access my Facebook
Speaker 6: page or communicate with me. Or they've taken a true
Speaker 6: crime book review and then added that true crime book
Speaker 6: review as a friend on the site. They have taken
Speaker 6: the photos are pardon me, the drawings that are exclusively
Speaker 6: only available in the book Trophy Care period and posted
Speaker 6: them on this site as well. They've taken sort of
Speaker 6: edited versions from my book as well. And again it
Speaker 6: all looks like it's Sydney Teerhues. It is written like
Speaker 6: it is Sidney Teerhuse and from a product of his doing.
Speaker 6: So that's what we have, and taking my information and
Speaker 6: trying to associate me with the killer's own Facebook page.
Speaker 6: So I'm going to make some inquiries to find out
Speaker 6: how this could be done. Talk to a Facebook administrator.
Speaker 6: I'll see if we can get this pulled off. I
Speaker 6: don't want to help promote this guy whatsoever. I don't
Speaker 6: want myself or my book associated with him in some
Speaker 6: way like I'm working in tangent or in tandem with
Speaker 6: this guy, which is absolutely opposite of what is true.
Speaker 6: I want to have this person spend the rest of
Speaker 6: his life in prison, and we do not have actual
Speaker 6: life sentences in this country. He could spend the rest
Speaker 6: of his life in prison, but routinely we see the
Speaker 6: exact opposite. Within a couple of years before his actual
Speaker 6: parole first parole date ability to be paroled, they are
Speaker 6: already sending him to a halfway house escorted passes to prove,
Speaker 6: and these would prove without if there is no incidence,
Speaker 6: they would prove that he is ready potentially to go
Speaker 6: to a halfway house or to a release date on parole.
Speaker 6: And again there is no rehabilitating this man. In fact,
Speaker 6: there are seventeen years before that parole hearing, and I
Speaker 6: am as much as I can going to step up
Speaker 6: this investigation to try to prove that this person is
Speaker 6: a killer by tracking down the victims themselves somehow. And
Speaker 6: the way to do that is just to speak to
Speaker 6: Sydney Tearhuse. This man wants to tell you what he
Speaker 6: has done to brag and boast, and that's what he's done.
Speaker 6: That's why someone walks into a police station to report
Speaker 6: a man dead and then blows the police officer's mind
Speaker 6: that gets to see this horror spectacle. This washed body
Speaker 6: sawn in half at the waist, decapitated, one eye punctured,
Speaker 6: one eye removed, one nipple cut off, one hand partially dissected,
Speaker 6: the legs at the knees, the arms at the elbows.
Speaker 6: Reposition in the bathtub on his back towards the door
Speaker 6: for maximum shock value. A horror murder, horror spectacle. The
Speaker 6: body's washed. All of the organs are removed. All of
Speaker 6: the organs have been removed. They check the sewer, They
Speaker 6: check the garbage cans around the area within maybe a
Speaker 6: mile or two. Nothing. They checked the sewer. Nothing I
Speaker 6: found out where those organs were. What happened with those organs?
Speaker 6: For those listening in America, you have no idea the
Speaker 6: added horror of our court system that deals with killers
Speaker 6: like they threw a rock through your garage window, like
Speaker 6: something like its vandalism. This killer, the serial killer, I
Speaker 6: believe and you'll believe it when you read just a
Speaker 6: little of what he writes, because he intimates, alludes to it,
Speaker 6: insinuates he is his latest thing On Facebook, he talks
Speaker 6: about being a serial killers. Whoever wrote it on behalf
Speaker 6: of him is now claiming he is a serial killer.
Speaker 6: And they're surprised he's only been caught for one murder.
Speaker 6: They repeat that he's a serial killer. Now have no
Speaker 6: idea why anybody would do this. It's not revenge on
Speaker 6: Sidney Teerhuse. This is exactly what he wants. Why would
Speaker 6: they get me involved? Because it's somewhat of a subtle
Speaker 6: threat that Sidney Teerhuse is reaching out to me. Sidney
Speaker 6: believes that I stole stole his royalties from this book.
Speaker 6: He believes, because sales are decent with this book, that
Speaker 6: there's an incredible amount of profit that I am not
Speaker 6: giving him. This is the way he thinks. At the
Speaker 6: same time, he's happy. As he said in court on
Speaker 6: the witness stand under cross examination, he hates me. He
Speaker 6: hates me. He puts on his Facebook page Sidney tierhues
Speaker 6: si d n e y t e r h U
Speaker 6: I s it's incredible. It's incredible what he's put on here.
Speaker 6: It's another example of his psychopathology. If this person were
Speaker 6: to be asked about other murders. He lived in Vancouver
Speaker 6: for ten years or so, nine or ten years. He
Speaker 6: lived in Edmonton about three years. These are big cities.
Speaker 6: There's about three million between those two cities for sure, certainly,
Speaker 6: And as I say, his dream was to move to Vancouver,
Speaker 6: British Columbia, West Coast, beautiful city. His wage would be
Speaker 6: at least as good there as anywhere. And he's a chef,
Speaker 6: one of many in restaurants. And he's a junkie, self
Speaker 6: avowed junkie, alcoholic junkie, spending his money, all his disposable
Speaker 6: income on rent and drugs. So he made some money,
Speaker 6: but he moves from Vancouver, he goes up north to
Speaker 6: the Yukon briefly, then he goes to Edmonton. Then he
Speaker 6: goes into drug clinic for six months, six months. So
Speaker 6: I just speculate that's where those murders happened, and that's
Speaker 6: why he moved to get away from himself, to get
Speaker 6: away from his murders, the capacity to be able to
Speaker 6: do what he did to butcher this human being, then
Speaker 6: remove all the organs and take them miles away to
Speaker 6: dispose of them, because he wanted to create a spectacle
Speaker 6: that even Jack the Ripper didn't commit. Jack the Ripper
Speaker 6: did not remove all the organs. Jack the Ripper sent
Speaker 6: a kidney to the police. He wrote letters, some were
Speaker 6: disputed but there certainly he wrote to the police. He
Speaker 6: contacted the police, he sent them an organ. He was
Speaker 6: called a ripper because he displayed organs. He dealt with organs.
Speaker 6: That was his signature. Is something to do with the
Speaker 6: organs and the overkill, mutilation and devastation of these people.
Speaker 6: He blended in that despite the thousands of police at
Speaker 6: that time, the concerted effort to try to hunt this guy,
Speaker 6: track this guy down, nobody saw him, nobody could give
Speaker 6: a good description, nobody could find him. Even though it'll
Speaker 6: only take a few minutes to get to the scene
Speaker 6: of the crime. He was accelerating in his brutality, expanding,
Speaker 6: evolving into more destruction, more mutilation. Sydney teerhughes the crime alone,
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Speaker 6: If it would have been a woman, if it would
Speaker 6: have been an eighteen year old school girl, this story
Speaker 6: would be so well known it would be incredible to
Speaker 6: be bringing in your ears. Imagine an eighteen year old
Speaker 6: girl found in the bathtub with her sex organs removed
Speaker 6: her breasts. You know, I won't go into it. Her
Speaker 6: sex organs removed in place besides you know, on display,
Speaker 6: and all of her internal organs missing, and her eye removed,
Speaker 6: and another one punctured in one of her breasts, her
Speaker 6: nipples cut off. And then somebody walked into a police station,
Speaker 6: a man and said, I met this woman and when
Speaker 6: I woke, I you know, would there be would there
Speaker 6: be outrage that this person then has the opportunity number one,
Speaker 6: to have the best lawyer in the English speaking world,
Speaker 6: the most experienced lawyer. And that's the other that's the
Speaker 6: major subtext of this book. How far does that guy
Speaker 6: go to defend And I'm not naive about how lawyers work,
Speaker 6: so but you see it, it's there. This person having
Speaker 6: the opportunity to have the ability to walk out of
Speaker 6: prison in five years a free man, is ridiculous. Ridiculous
Speaker 6: that even had the opportunity. Now, he still had the
Speaker 6: opportunity when he wrote me two hundred pages of letters
Speaker 6: outlining his mo o, his signature. He talks when you
Speaker 6: kill a body, when a body dies, he talks about
Speaker 6: every single detail of the murder and the autopsy, disposable
Speaker 6: of the organs with glee and enjoyment and disregard for
Speaker 6: humanity itself. And still he had the opportunity to walk
Speaker 6: out of there a free man. That is ridiculous, that's absurd,
Speaker 6: that's insane. So who cares about the Canadian judicial system,
Speaker 6: certainly not anybody in America. But it's part of the story.
Speaker 6: It's part of And you know, I'm not a bleeding
Speaker 6: heart liberal and I'm not a conservative, and I'm not
Speaker 6: a left wing and I'm not a right wing. I'm
Speaker 6: just a guy that looks at this and says, this
Speaker 6: shows you what's wrong. This is a case that clearly
Speaker 6: demonstrates that there's something wrong with an attitude that you
Speaker 6: can rehabilitate most everybody, and that drinking reduces your responsibility
Speaker 6: for murder because then they can't. They have the prosecution
Speaker 6: has to prove that the killer had the intent to kill.
Speaker 6: Sounds ridiculous, it is. And when people just look at
Speaker 6: the brutality and viciousness and senselessness and savagery of this murder,
Speaker 6: I don't care if you're looking at a good victim
Speaker 6: or a bad victim. It's just a victim. But this book,
Speaker 6: unlike any other book, is so far into the criminal mind.
Speaker 6: You have not read anybody that talks like this never,
Speaker 6: You've never seen drawings like this. And then he takes
Speaker 6: the witness stand for a full day of testimony. And
Speaker 6: it's interesting when his lawyer trots out all the fanciful
Speaker 6: tale the importance of this psychopath and all these famous people.
Speaker 6: He's been such an important like you say, the rising
Speaker 6: star in the culinary industry. Again, all the examples. If
Speaker 6: you love psychology, you won't believe what you get. You're
Speaker 6: privy to because this is a classic case the serial killer.
Speaker 6: It's not the beginning of the birth of a serial killer.
Speaker 6: This is how a serial killer thinks, how they really
Speaker 6: regard their victims. Never, not Jeffrey Dahmer, not John Wayne Gacy,
Speaker 6: not any of them have spoken like this about their victim,
Speaker 6: and nobody has included all of these other characteristics. Sure,
Speaker 6: he's nonchalant. There's some killers that are like that. Fifteen
Speaker 6: twenty hours of questioning and even the investigators doubt that
Speaker 6: these guys did it. It's incredible their composure. But this
Speaker 6: guy's psychopathology is on display. He loves to talk and
Speaker 6: he's articulate. But that just makes for a deeper insight,
Speaker 6: or a deeper look into this guy's mind how it
Speaker 6: actually works. Essentially, he did this murder just to capitalize
Speaker 6: on the fame he knew he would gain from Susan
Speaker 6: Sarandon's jewelry. But at the same time, that jewelry has
Speaker 6: much more meaning than just ending up at that crime scene.
Speaker 6: Why what was it doing there? And you do read
Speaker 6: some talk of Sydney downplaying that jewelry, and I have
Speaker 6: my ideas why that was is that I really do
Speaker 6: think that this person investigated our laws and talked about
Speaker 6: second degree murder versus first degree murder. I really don't
Speaker 6: think he wanted to tell people the motive for the murder,
Speaker 6: and as a result, other than myself, nobody looked for
Speaker 6: that motive for the murder. This person would have been
Speaker 6: convicted easily a first degree murder in the United States
Speaker 6: because I would have pulled a bunch of circumstantial things
Speaker 6: like the letters, which are very, very damning, and we're
Speaker 6: crucial in the trial itself that I was involved in.
Speaker 6: The jury believed my letters or believed my testimony, believed
Speaker 6: the killer's testimony, believed what he wrote in the letters,
Speaker 6: and believed his diagrams, and recommended the stiffest sentence in
Speaker 6: our province's history for second degree murder, the equivalent of
Speaker 6: first degree murder. So they recommended the stiffest sentence available period,
Speaker 6: very encouraging. The judge believed said stated, essentially believed these letters.
Speaker 6: So the evil nature of this man was on display,
Speaker 6: and he was proud to convey that information. Of his power,
Speaker 6: his evil, his brutality, his callousness. There's nothing more humiliating
Speaker 6: and more disturbing than someone that talks about the sheer
Speaker 6: glee of necrophilia with a details appetitated corpse. This person
Speaker 6: has reached into, you know, a pit of evil that
Speaker 6: no one that I have read has ever gone. I've
Speaker 6: read The Happy Faced Killer by the Creation of the
Speaker 6: Serial Killer by Jack Olsen, and it was Keith jesperson.
Speaker 6: You can see it on YouTube. American Justice covered it
Speaker 6: as well. This very callous disregard for prostitutes hanging around
Speaker 6: truck stops and he threw them outains like trash and Gaysey.
Speaker 6: There's not much worse than Gaysey and his disregard for
Speaker 6: the people he tortured and killed. Dahmer. The story is
Speaker 6: just fantastic, fantastically disturbing and horrific. Drilling into his victims, said, putting.
Speaker 5: A jax.
Speaker 6: They're trying to turn them into a robot. Sex Robot
Speaker 6: and just you know you have. I did an interview
Speaker 6: with Don Lassiter. Oh no, pardon me, yes, Don Lassiter,
Speaker 6: die for me, Charles ng n G and Leonard Lake,
Speaker 6: the guys that built a dungeon videotape victims. When you
Speaker 6: start getting pairs of villains, Bernardo Malka, Ray Ray Parker,
Speaker 6: David Ray Parker. Well, here we have Ronald J. Watkins,
Speaker 6: So maybe we'll go into the second hour if you'd
Speaker 6: like to stick with me. Good evening.
Speaker 5: Run Well, hi there, how are you. I'm very good.
Speaker 6: Well we've gone an hour into our show, but you'd
Speaker 6: like to stay, we'll do We'll do your book.
Speaker 5: That's fine, Yeah, whatever you like.
Speaker 6: I got a little mixed up with the time, and
Speaker 6: I apologize, but I've already introduced your book to our audience.
Speaker 6: But I will again this is against her will with
Speaker 6: Ronald J. Watkins. Welcome to the program. Ronald J. Watkins.
Speaker 5: Thank you. Have you been talking about the book for
Speaker 5: the last hour.
Speaker 6: Not for the last hour. For the first half hour
Speaker 6: we spoke. I introduced it and I spoke about some
Speaker 6: other stories, and I was hoping you were going to
Speaker 6: get on come online. So now we have you we
Speaker 6: can start the interview.
Speaker 5: So well, I apologize for the delay of the time difference.
Speaker 5: I thought I was five minutes early and then turned
Speaker 5: tell I'm fifty five minutes late. My apology.
Speaker 6: That's okay. We've got a great audience that loves to
Speaker 6: hear me blab anyway, and I was talking about my book, so.
Speaker 5: I had even better to speak, Yeah.
Speaker 6: Speak about my book for another half hour, so I
Speaker 6: snuck that in. Anyway, I want to congratulate you. This
Speaker 6: is a very well written book. And as I had
Speaker 6: explained to the audience, we're talking about uh Kelly, and
Speaker 6: now let me see make sure I pronounced her as times,
Speaker 6: but is what is the pronunciation of Richard and Victoria's.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry tensens?
Speaker 6: Okay, let me put that down and.
Speaker 5: Uh tenyus and uh and it would be John Robert.
Speaker 6: Gallup, Yes Gallup, Yes, absolutely, Okay, Now why don't you
Speaker 6: first describe I'd like to just get the setting of
Speaker 6: this story as well. Just go into this this little
Speaker 6: suburb in Valley Stream, in a Manhattan suburb, a Long
Speaker 6: Ireland suburb. Tell us a little bit about this community.
Speaker 6: How big is it? Uh, it's general affluence? Tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about Valley Stream and uh, and then
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about uh Horton Road, which
Speaker 6: is obviously in Valley Stream. Just tell us, just get
Speaker 6: that setting for us, sure.
Speaker 5: Uh. Valley Stream is a is a that is a
Speaker 5: typical American small town as you could have. I think
Speaker 5: a lot of Americans not being from New York State
Speaker 5: would have a different impression of it. But this town
Speaker 5: could just as easily been in Nebraska or Kansas somewhere.
Speaker 5: It's not far from Minneola for those who know the area.
Speaker 5: It's one of the early settlements on Long Island. But
Speaker 5: it is a very middle class, maybe upwardly so. And
Speaker 5: it's just your average normal small town people. The children
Speaker 5: walk to school, people don't exercise anymore than the normal
Speaker 5: kind of caution for their safety. It's a low crime
Speaker 5: area and this murder was very shocking to the community.
Speaker 5: Horton Road is just one of the streets. The neighbors
Speaker 5: are typically held to block parties there and would block
Speaker 5: it off on Halloween to keep the children from wandering around.
Speaker 5: And Missus Gallup, the wife of Robert Gullup, had been
Speaker 5: involved in a campaign not long before the murder to
Speaker 5: have the street made one way in order to minimize
Speaker 5: the amount of traffic that went up and down the streets.
Speaker 5: So she was fairly well known. The kelly An's parents
Speaker 5: lived five houses away near the corner. They were not
Speaker 5: neighbors who knew each other intimately, but knew each other
Speaker 5: by sight and to wave. And I don't recall, you know,
Speaker 5: I wrote the book back in nineteen ninety four, it seemed,
Speaker 5: and I was that's when I was last on the street.
Speaker 5: Seems to me there were eighteen houses on Horton Road
Speaker 5: something like that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you say, nineteen families lived on nineteen. Yeah, So
Speaker 6: it was a a close knit little neighborhood. It was
Speaker 6: so like you say, it was a small small town America,
Speaker 6: and it was a specially sort of close knit. They
Speaker 6: closed it off three times a year for a block party.
Speaker 6: So that's pretty interesting, uh dynamic there for that little
Speaker 6: Horton Road. So now tell us about the Gallub family,
Speaker 6: John and tell us about the family, and then tell
Speaker 6: us about the sons, Robert and John j.
Speaker 5: The senior Gallup was a uh RAN a service station,
Speaker 5: not but all that far from the house. His wife
Speaker 5: worked in an office or a bank, something like that,
Speaker 5: and they they had lived here for for some time.
Speaker 5: John excuse me, Robert the son was, if I recall correctly,
Speaker 5: twenty one one, right, yeah, yeah, and John Jay was
Speaker 5: Kelly's age.
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Speaker 4: Don't works necessary.
Speaker 1: Wherever I lost the terms conditions eighteen.
Speaker 5: Plus like thirteen, maybe fourteen? She was about turn fourteen,
Speaker 5: favor classmates, and they had the boys. I believe they'd
Speaker 5: lived there nearly all of their lives. Mister and missus tenius,
Speaker 5: I say, just live down the street. There was Kelly,
Speaker 5: and she's thirteen. This bmurder took place on a Friday.
Speaker 5: She was turned fourteen, to Fallow in Sunday. She had
Speaker 5: an eight year old brother, Ritchie. I don't recall if
Speaker 5: there's another another child in the tenuous home or not.
Speaker 5: Father her father ran an auto restoration business, and her
Speaker 5: mother worked I don't recall in an office something like that.
Speaker 6: Right, so there was Was there anything really evident in
Speaker 6: his upbringing that was out of the ordinary? Was there
Speaker 6: any run ins with the law? Was there a truancy?
Speaker 6: What was he really like as a person as characterized
Speaker 6: by his interactions with his classmates and say other neighbors.
Speaker 6: What was by all impressions before this time, what was
Speaker 6: Robert known as? What was his character generally regarded?
Speaker 5: As my recollection is that there had been no prior incidents.
Speaker 5: The interesting an interesting aspect of the family. I don't
Speaker 5: know the bears on the story at all, but just
Speaker 5: sort of an oddity is there. These were all pretty
Speaker 5: short people, and the father was not much over five
Speaker 5: feet tall his the mother was just a little bit
Speaker 5: shorter than him. The significance of it is that Robert
Speaker 5: Gallop himself is very short. I don't recall the exact hype.
Speaker 5: We're talking very short, five foot two, five 't three,
Speaker 5: five foot four, maybe right in that range. And like
Speaker 5: some very short men, he compensated by being a weightlifter,
Speaker 5: and he routinely went to a weight room where he
Speaker 5: worked out and was quite muscular even for his short,
Speaker 5: short size. And it came out of the investigation that
Speaker 5: he had been like somewhat weight whitter's weight lifters do bodybuilders.
Speaker 5: He had been using steroids, and there was some the
Speaker 5: question was raised as to whether or not steroid use
Speaker 5: might have somehow contributed to the offense. But no, there
Speaker 5: was ever any positive conclusion made that that was the case.
Speaker 5: Right now, he was a bit of a lay about.
Speaker 5: It didn't really work, didn't keep didn't keep jobs. But
Speaker 5: then he was that's probably pretty common of a lot
Speaker 5: of young men's age. That was great.
Speaker 6: Sure. Now on the day of question, Friday, March third,
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty nine. And the thing is is that, yeah,
Speaker 6: on March third, nineteen eighty nine, take us back to
Speaker 6: what was happening with Kelly Ann Tennis and what happened
Speaker 6: that day, you know, in the afternoon, tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit, what was she supposed to do? What she do?
Speaker 6: Take us back to her home and that afternoon.
Speaker 5: She had been to school that day and after school.
Speaker 5: You know, her parents worked very close to the there.
Speaker 5: As I say, it's a small community, and she was
Speaker 5: going to go to Grant Park I believe there was
Speaker 5: still ice to do it to ice skate, and it
Speaker 5: said she was told that she'd have to go home
Speaker 5: and babysit her or eight year old brother, which she
Speaker 5: did not want to do. If I recall correctly, she
Speaker 5: was supposed to go to a slumber party that night.
Speaker 5: They were getting ready for her for her birthday, and
Speaker 5: friends had bought a gift for her they were going
Speaker 5: to give her and she when she got home, she
Speaker 5: was sitting here Richie, her younger brother, and it was
Speaker 5: talking to a girlfriend, complaining about having to stay home
Speaker 5: and thinking that she ought to just go to Grant
Speaker 5: Park anyway. And then at the little after three o'clock
Speaker 5: in the afternoon, she received a telephone call.
Speaker 6: Now she told her brother that she was just going
Speaker 6: down the street after that to Nicholes and would be
Speaker 6: right back.
Speaker 5: Yes the call, she she told she told her brother
Speaker 5: the call was from John and that she and there
Speaker 5: was a delay from the time she received the call
Speaker 5: until she left ten or fifteen minutes. And she said
Speaker 5: she was going to go down the street to see
Speaker 5: her her girlfriend, and then she would be right back.
Speaker 5: And then she didn't come back, and.
Speaker 6: Then okay, sorry, So so the brother then, because she
Speaker 6: was supposed to babysit him, he rat it out on
Speaker 6: her and called the mother. I guess and I believe.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think he went down you know, I think
Speaker 5: he went down to Nicoles first to tell his sister
Speaker 5: she had to come home, and Nicole said she hadn't
Speaker 5: seen her, okay, right, yeah, And then there was a
Speaker 5: there's a point in time, you know, there are a
Speaker 5: lot of it. There's a lot there was, you know,
Speaker 5: when she didn't come back. The parents are very concerned,
Speaker 5: and so they they want they start looking for their
Speaker 5: girl and knocking on doors. Have you seen Kelly? Yes?
Speaker 5: And someone said they had seen her go into the
Speaker 5: gall Up house, which seemed a new usual because they
Speaker 5: know they were not friends and even though the younger
Speaker 5: gallic boy John Jay and her were of the same age,
Speaker 5: they were not known to hang out with each other,
Speaker 5: and so it was sort of unusual. And they went
Speaker 5: to the door and uh, and I don't recall the answer,
Speaker 5: but denied that Kelly had come there. The family kept
Speaker 5: looking for Kelly, called the police, learned they couldn't make
Speaker 5: a missing person's report till the next day. Kelly's mother
Speaker 5: called the teniusall as I recall, very late, like midnight
Speaker 5: or something, and were and explained their daughter was missing
Speaker 5: and been seen going to the house and was assured
Speaker 5: that Kelly was not there and had not been there.
Speaker 5: So it wasn't until the next morning when a juvenile
Speaker 5: police officer responded to the missing person's complaint that an
Speaker 5: official search began.
Speaker 6: Now the parents were were, like you say, they almost
Speaker 6: started an investigation right away, because the police, you know,
Speaker 6: can't do anything with a missing person thing right away themselves.
Speaker 6: And so they had spoken to a couple kids that
Speaker 6: had said that they had seen Kelly go into the
Speaker 6: gall Of home, which was Harry Finney which was six
Speaker 6: years old, and then Sharon's Stonell so there was two.
Speaker 6: So police then interviewed those children and what did those
Speaker 6: children say about what they had told the Tenyus family.
Speaker 5: My recollection is that they had seen her go to
Speaker 5: the gall Of house and go inside the house.
Speaker 6: And who had let them in the house, which which
Speaker 6: one of the witnesses.
Speaker 5: That's it, you tell me, I don't recall.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, it seemed to be that the one witness
Speaker 6: said it was John Jay had to open up the
Speaker 6: door and was very confident that that's who had opened
Speaker 6: the door.
Speaker 5: Yeah, unfortunately, Yeah, and she said the call was from John.
Speaker 5: One of the interesting things if you go to Amazon
Speaker 5: or read the reviews, generally speaking, reviews are very positive,
Speaker 5: and then there are a few that are extremely negative.
Speaker 5: And if you read the reviews, you'll see the reason
Speaker 5: they're negative isn't an objection to the book itself, but
Speaker 5: because they don't believe that Robert de gulloped murdered her
Speaker 5: by herself. They think just that he was not alone.
Speaker 5: And they commonly they will say that those who think
Speaker 5: more than one person was involved point to think you're
Speaker 5: a John Jay. And the part of the reason for
Speaker 5: that is the call was allegedly from John. And then
Speaker 5: what you're saying that one of the children said it
Speaker 5: was John Jay who answered the door.
Speaker 6: Right now, there are a couple of witnesses that right
Speaker 6: away say that they can account for John Jay because
Speaker 6: they say that they're in the house smoking some weed
Speaker 6: in the room. And then so they also testified, well,
Speaker 6: this is where John Jay was and this is because
Speaker 6: we were here. One is reluctant to say was smoking weed,
Speaker 6: but the other guy comes clean and says they're smoking
Speaker 6: some weed. But they also testified that Robert was alone
Speaker 6: listening to a stereo. So tell us just a little
Speaker 6: bit about that.
Speaker 5: Well, the yeah, the story was that the John Jay
Speaker 5: was upstairs with two of his friends in his room
Speaker 5: smoking dope. Robert was not with them. It's a two
Speaker 5: story house and with the extensive kinds of basements that
Speaker 5: are common in that part of the part of the country.
Speaker 5: I don't know if we want to back up to
Speaker 5: how her body was found before we talk too much
Speaker 5: about what happened in the house.
Speaker 6: Well, okay, Well to tell us what how how it
Speaker 6: was that police were able to was interesting is that
Speaker 6: the cooperation from the gall of family. Not all families
Speaker 6: or you know when they you know you talk about
Speaker 6: in your Certainly the father quickly realized that it was
Speaker 6: a pretty good distinct possibility one or two of his
Speaker 6: sons were involved in this somehow, and yet he still cooperated.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about how you know police
Speaker 6: were able to get that warrant, because if they weren't
Speaker 6: able to get that warrant, the case could come out
Speaker 6: completely different.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but my recollection is is that the police officers
Speaker 5: interviewed the Tenya's family and this did not sound like
Speaker 5: the normal runaway or where a girl might stay away
Speaker 5: overnight with a boyfriend or something. Was her birthday, she
Speaker 5: was supposed to be the slumber party. This is a
Speaker 5: nice family, although you know, you never know what's going
Speaker 5: on behind the walls of any home, so they took
Speaker 5: it seriously and they learned the same information the family did,
Speaker 5: which is that there were people who had seen her
Speaker 5: enter the gall Of home. My recollection is the book recently.
Speaker 5: Maybe you'll recall it differently, but my recollection is that
Speaker 5: they had the father signed a consent for him which
Speaker 5: allowed them to search the home. That was an innovation
Speaker 5: of the of the police department. And the parents were,
Speaker 5: you know, innocent in this. They wanted to cooperate and
Speaker 5: they had been told by their children that the girl
Speaker 5: had not been there, so they didn't have a problem
Speaker 5: with the police searching. And in the course of the search,
Speaker 5: they discovered her body in the basement in a sleeping bag,
Speaker 5: stuff to the closet, at which point the homicide detectors
Speaker 5: were someone the father, if I recall correctly, was in
Speaker 5: the basement helping the police search.
Speaker 6: Right. It was interesting too, is that John Jay, the
Speaker 6: fourteen year old, actually urged his mother to.
Speaker 5: Sign the if I mean, I remember that, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, give them permission to actually search. So that was
Speaker 6: another interesting, another interesting aspect of it.
Speaker 5: I don't know, you know, you can't know what happened,
Speaker 5: and the logical conclusions aren't always true. But you know,
Speaker 5: I remembered I had a younger brother, and I remember
Speaker 5: we would prowl the neighborhood and sometimes I'd get into
Speaker 5: mischief or maybe do something that was against the rules.
Speaker 5: My brother was always kind of eager to point my
Speaker 5: parents in that direction, and that was sort of the
Speaker 5: way I interpreted this. Maybe I was wrong that he
Speaker 5: he knew his brother had done something and he didn't mind,
Speaker 5: you know, making it making it easier for him to
Speaker 5: get caught.
Speaker 6: Interesting, now, in that search you talked about, they found
Speaker 6: the naked body of the fourteen year old Kelly Antinis
Speaker 6: in the sleeping bag. If you don't mind it, you
Speaker 6: just go as far as you would like to go.
Speaker 6: But I describe it because this is a particularly unique
Speaker 6: as well.
Speaker 5: Candidate, Well, you can go.
Speaker 6: This is this is this is the most shocking killers
Speaker 6: in true crime history. This, this story is called, this
Speaker 6: show is called. So you can go. People can handle
Speaker 6: it because they're they're going to have to read it
Speaker 6: in your book, and it's a far more graphic in
Speaker 6: your book, I would think so.
Speaker 5: Well, the when they finally the homicide detectors arrived and
Speaker 5: they they'd taken all the photographs and sealed the crime
Speaker 5: scene in the basement.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 5: The detective told me that the first thing he noticed
Speaker 5: before they even removed the body was that he could
Speaker 5: tell the murder it happened in the in the basement,
Speaker 5: that there was there was blood everywhere, and it was
Speaker 5: clear that something very violent had happened in that basement,
Speaker 5: he said. When he unzipped the body, which was already
Speaker 5: starting to decay, the smell was very strong. Even though
Speaker 5: this was less than twenty four hours since the murder.
Speaker 5: She had been vivisectioned. She had been gutted while she
Speaker 5: was still alive, and that's what killed her. The compared
Speaker 5: to the example I draw late in the book is
Speaker 5: that while much was made of the steroids and later
Speaker 5: of satanic satanic rites, and the truth is this was
Speaker 5: a sadomasochistic murder, much like Jack the Ripper in London
Speaker 5: in the nineteenth century. The murderer had had gutted his victim.
Speaker 5: Seamen was discovered on the body, but it had been
Speaker 5: placed there through masturbation, not through any sexual activity with
Speaker 5: the body, and the sexual arousal appears to have occurred
Speaker 5: from the from the vivisectioning of a living human being.
Speaker 6: Along with that, there was a credible bruising while the
Speaker 6: person was alive. You referred to it as the head
Speaker 6: and face were destroyed.
Speaker 5: The police believed that she had been seized at the
Speaker 5: doorway and from the start. From the start, she wasn't
Speaker 5: lured into the basement or anything like that. She was
Speaker 5: grabbed by the hair and slammed into the wall, a
Speaker 5: blow so strong that it would have that alone might
Speaker 5: have ultimately have caused her death, and then she was
Speaker 5: taken down into the basement. The other interesting aspect of
Speaker 5: it that I've never encountered anywhere else is that there
Speaker 5: were extensive cutting off her body, but not it wasn't
Speaker 5: done by knife. They were not able initially to determine
Speaker 5: what instrument had been used. There was a World War
Speaker 5: One German banet down there, and initially suspicion was directed
Speaker 5: that it had been the murder weapon, but it was not.
Speaker 5: The the forensic the pathologist finally determined that she had
Speaker 5: been cut open using shards of broken glass because there
Speaker 5: was a peculiar two track uh incision caused by the
Speaker 5: by the glass. Now, the interesting part of that is
Speaker 5: if you look at the murder, then it tells you
Speaker 5: it's unplanned. Right, if you're gonna, if you're gonna, I'm
Speaker 5: gonna cut someone like this and kill them, then you
Speaker 5: would at least take the time to have a knife.
Speaker 5: And the murder was in such a frenzy, just incredibly violent.
Speaker 5: The homicide detective, as I talked to, told me they
Speaker 5: never before and never since saw a bodies so utterly
Speaker 5: brutalized as her body was.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, they said that. You say in your book
Speaker 6: that they couldn't determine whether the Kelly n had been
Speaker 6: raped because he had cut the vagina in the anus
Speaker 6: and that was like in terms of slicing her open,
Speaker 6: it was she was sliced up that way, so it
Speaker 6: couldn't even tell. But like you say that there was
Speaker 6: of course the sexual nature, and it always is. It's
Speaker 6: just mixed in with murder, you know.
Speaker 5: So you know, it's for normal people, it's hard to
Speaker 5: understand how taking life and doing this to a body
Speaker 5: could be sexually arousing, But for certain deviants it is
Speaker 5: and it just simply is. And and that's so that's
Speaker 5: how he got off.
Speaker 6: That's a characteristic of these guys. And it's not just him,
Speaker 6: it's it's it's a common characteristic.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a very small minority, but but but you know,
Speaker 5: in the population of three hundred million, there is a
Speaker 5: bunch of them.
Speaker 6: And and some people are worried that it might be
Speaker 6: a growing trend as well. So certainly not getting any better.
Speaker 6: So now, now what did the police conclude from this search?
Speaker 6: And there is some other things that they find as well.
Speaker 6: Talk about what they thought they found was a bloody
Speaker 6: print on a doorway, I believe to the closet, and
Speaker 6: they were very initially excited about that because it looked
Speaker 6: like a print in blood. So what else did the
Speaker 6: police find in there? Obviously? Then now once they've got
Speaker 6: the body and now it's going to be taken to
Speaker 6: the pathologist for autopsy. What are the police now looking
Speaker 6: for and finding and tell us because this is an
Speaker 6: important part of the story, at least for you know,
Speaker 6: for a visual is that what's the state of this house,
Speaker 6: especially the basement itself.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the detective told me. He said, the bizarre the
Speaker 5: bizarre problem they had is that the parents were upstairs
Speaker 5: with the other son. A friend who was an attorney
Speaker 5: had come over. Said he was just a friend, but
Speaker 5: then he was giving legal advice. And they didn't have
Speaker 5: a search warrant. They just had permission of the family
Speaker 5: to be there. And he said, you had He said,
Speaker 5: I'd never had a crime scene before where people were
Speaker 5: living in the house, were actually in the house. He said,
Speaker 5: normally a crime scene you exclude everyone except the investigators.
Speaker 5: But that isn't what was happening, and they needed to
Speaker 5: do an investigation beyond the basement. They needed to look
Speaker 5: in the rest of the house. But people were up there,
Speaker 5: moving around, and he said he had no idea of
Speaker 5: what evidence was being destroyed or hidden, even accidentally. They
Speaker 5: had to obtain a search warrant ultimately, and he said
Speaker 5: he's he was never able to resolve how much damage
Speaker 5: to the investigation might have occurred as a consequence of that.
Speaker 5: To say the mother was not a good housekeeper would
Speaker 5: probably be the understatement of the century. She was a collector.
Speaker 5: There's I guess there's a TV show now about that.
Speaker 5: Huh yeah, order, Yeah, she's a order and the place,
Speaker 5: I mean, you could hardly move the place was no.
Speaker 5: I had an aunt who who kept a very neat house,
Speaker 5: but she never put anything away. And you know, every
Speaker 5: time I go visit her, it was she she found
Speaker 5: it easier to apologize then pick up the house and
Speaker 5: I would have to wait five minutes. Why she cleared
Speaker 5: off and left room for me to sit on a
Speaker 5: couch because every every open place in the house had
Speaker 5: had stuff piled on it, and this house was like that.
Speaker 5: And the basement was even worse. It was like things
Speaker 5: had just been pitched there from the top of the stairs.
Speaker 5: There was just no order to it at all. It
Speaker 5: made the forensic examination very, very complicated. The other part
Speaker 5: of this to keep in mind is we're talking nineteen
Speaker 5: eighty nine, and the level of forensic science at that
Speaker 5: time is not where it is today, and DNA testing
Speaker 5: had only just begun, and the police were accustomed to
Speaker 5: with blood samples of using the old serum systems where
Speaker 5: you did classification by blood type, and then there would
Speaker 5: be I've forgotten the name for it, but there would
Speaker 5: be different elements within the blood that could could systematically
Speaker 5: eliminate people as suspects. And they were initially depending on
Speaker 5: that because DNA testing was so slow and they didn't
Speaker 5: have any faith in it yet, because as of this
Speaker 5: at this point in time, no criminal case in the
Speaker 5: state of New York had been solved by DNA yet,
Speaker 5: and so it was all new to these officers and
Speaker 5: they weren't sure they could even though they had a
Speaker 5: lots lots of blood, you know, they were pretty sure
Speaker 5: it was from Kelly, but they were beginning to suspect
Speaker 5: some of the blood might be for the murderer himself,
Speaker 5: and so they were taking samples everywhere.
Speaker 6: Now, in terms of the potential suspects, I guess we
Speaker 6: could say that John Jay, the fourteen year old, and
Speaker 6: Robert are the chief suspects of this so far from
Speaker 6: what you've explained. Now, Obviously, they interviewed John Jay and
Speaker 6: then they interviewed Robert. Now with their idea that you
Speaker 6: just mentioned that potentially there could have been the perpetrator's blood.
Speaker 6: They were looking for abrasions on John Jay and on
Speaker 6: Robert or any other potential suspect. Yeah, there have been
Speaker 6: four of the most talk about the interview with Robert. Yeah,
Speaker 6: there have been four in the house. Three of them
Speaker 6: alibied each other, and Robert just you would have been
Speaker 6: by himself. But when the police were questioning them and
Speaker 6: they were saying that nobody had come into the house
Speaker 6: and they couldn't explain how the body got there, they
Speaker 6: noticed that that John Jay had cuts on his hands,
Speaker 6: and as I said earlier, he was very powerfully built.
Speaker 6: One of the initial impressions the first thing the policeman did,
Speaker 6: you know, John Jay and his friends are like thirteen
Speaker 6: to fourteen years old, and they're just about like you expect,
Speaker 6: three geeky kids smoking dope. And then here's this weightlifter,
Speaker 6: the short but very powerfully built, and he's got cuts
Speaker 6: on his hands.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and so you know this in rocket science of
Speaker 5: the One of the peculiarities of this homicide is that
Speaker 5: the only suspects were these four guys, because nobody else
Speaker 5: was in the house at this time. By telling their
Speaker 5: story that nobody had come there, they had eliminated the
Speaker 5: possibility that anyone else had committed the murder, that therefore
Speaker 5: it had to be one.
Speaker 6: Of them right now. The other thing was is that
Speaker 6: Robert didn't have much of a reason for those cuts
Speaker 6: on his hand. They didn't seem that play possible. But
Speaker 6: the thing that's interesting about this, and I talked about
Speaker 6: my book where we're dealing with psychopath psychopathic killers, what
Speaker 6: was Robert's demeanor in the fifteen hours that he was
Speaker 6: questioned relentlessly by police when they realized he was the
Speaker 6: main suspect. What was his demeanor? And then what was
Speaker 6: almost what was the conclusion from what was the reaction
Speaker 6: from police after encountering this demeanor.
Speaker 5: You're going to have to refresh my memories. I wrote
Speaker 5: this book in nineteen ninety four, and I don't recall
Speaker 5: off hand. I could speculate based on who he was,
Speaker 5: but what did I.
Speaker 6: Write, well, Robert really did the fifteen hour interview, And
Speaker 6: in that interview, there were police, even the seasoned veterans,
Speaker 6: even I don't know if it was Richard Wells the
Speaker 6: main character in questioning this person, but there were certainly
Speaker 6: they encountered this guy having his story down and not
Speaker 6: being able to be shaken. They tried to appeal to
Speaker 6: this humanity, but he stuck with his story and his
Speaker 6: demeanor was steady. So that's why I talked about psychopathic
Speaker 6: characters and that the only people that are able to
Speaker 6: do this under that kind of questioning.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, Well if they don't.
Speaker 6: Not have the and still not have the the what
Speaker 6: you would call normal reaction to their neighbor being killed
Speaker 6: and then being accused, So well, you just.
Speaker 5: Think about it. You know those lists, You just consider it.
Speaker 5: You're taking to the police department and you're being questioned
Speaker 5: and you're clearly a suspect in a brutal homicide. You know,
Speaker 5: guilty people pace the room, they're upset, they deny. It
Speaker 5: is emotional. You want to be accused about child molesting
Speaker 5: or murdering. This is a horrible thing, and you realize
Speaker 5: your risk because the police are focusing on you. But
Speaker 5: the psychopath or the sociopath, what's the word they use
Speaker 5: today for them, sociopath sociopath of the word. Okay, they
Speaker 5: know they have no conscience, they feel no guilt, their
Speaker 5: glib liars, they've been lying all their life, and they're
Speaker 5: very controlled, and of course they know they're guilty, and
Speaker 5: it's not uncommon left alone in the room for him
Speaker 5: just to fall asleep, and that's how unconcerned they are,
Speaker 5: and he could not he there was a moment, if
Speaker 5: I recall correctly, when the detective thought he had him
Speaker 5: just about ready to come clean, and then he clamped
Speaker 5: down and and and that was as close as they
Speaker 5: ever got to a confession from him.
Speaker 6: And you talked about in your book too, that the
Speaker 6: laws had changed in the state so that if they
Speaker 6: didn't really get a confession, it was unlikely that they
Speaker 6: were going to get a conviction if they didn't get
Speaker 6: this confession, because obviously a lawyer comes into play at
Speaker 6: some point and then everything you know, there is no
Speaker 6: more information to be had. And now in this case,
Speaker 6: it seems to be a slam dunk because it had
Speaker 6: to be someone and I think that's a lot of
Speaker 6: people might say, well, well, how hard can this be?
Speaker 6: This conviction? It does become hard because of a state
Speaker 6: law and just the steadfastness of this killer itself. So
Speaker 6: they questioned him, but police are not able to make
Speaker 6: an arrest based on them.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there were problems with this case. First, as I said,
Speaker 5: you had people moving about in what was crime scene,
Speaker 5: so that complicated evidence gathering. There are potentially four suspects
Speaker 5: and any defense attorney. The way they get murderers off
Speaker 5: is they paint a picture of who else could have
Speaker 5: been the killer. You've got at least three other people,
Speaker 5: and then they don't have a confession. And then the
Speaker 5: police were not initially in the house with the search
Speaker 5: warrant because of of how the missing person case unfolded,
Speaker 5: and there were lots of legal trip wires that the
Speaker 5: police realized they could have stumbled over. You mentioned the
Speaker 5: bloody palm print earlier. They really thought they had it.
Speaker 5: They thought that they had the killer's palm print from
Speaker 5: when he had placed her body into the closet, and
Speaker 5: in fact, I think that is exactly what they had.
Speaker 5: And what they did was they cut the door jam out,
Speaker 5: bagged it, and and they were taking it in to
Speaker 5: have the fingerprint analysts then take the print off of it.
Speaker 5: But it was apparently damaged in some way in transit,
Speaker 5: and if my recollections correct, they used what was then
Speaker 5: a very new technique where they sealed it and then
Speaker 5: they released a spray of super glue. Apparently this is
Speaker 5: a common technique used today. At that time it was
Speaker 5: very unusual, and they were able to lift a print
Speaker 5: from it, but I don't recall if any longer, if
Speaker 5: the print played a role in the prosecution or not.
Speaker 6: What they did is that it was damaged in transit
Speaker 6: to the point where there was someone came forward and said, listen,
Speaker 6: I think I might be able to reconstruct it through photographs.
Speaker 6: So you know, it was another podcast circumstantial evidence, but
Speaker 6: it became it became but it is a palm print
Speaker 6: and it's not a fingerprint, and so that there becomes
Speaker 6: of course, it's a bone of contention at the trial certainly. Now,
Speaker 6: so how do the detectives proceed with this if they
Speaker 6: can't arrest them. The other thing that we might not
Speaker 6: have mentioned that there is some other evidence that's found
Speaker 6: at the house, including attache cases that seemed to be
Speaker 6: soaked in blood. But also they there was a mystery
Speaker 6: for quite a while and it ends up being important later,
Speaker 6: and that they found an attache case with some clothing
Speaker 6: that ends up being the victims, but also an attached
Speaker 6: a case well looks like empty, not containers, but receptacles
Speaker 6: for something, and they can't figure out what that is.
Speaker 6: It becomes later important when it ends up being antique
Speaker 6: pocket watches from the Gaulos family and ended up being
Speaker 6: part of this evidence as well. And they find out later,
Speaker 6: much later that, of course Robert cashes those in at
Speaker 6: the pawn shop a day or so before the murder.
Speaker 6: So another bit of circumstantial evidence pointing to I'm not
Speaker 6: sure if that has anything to do with motive, but
Speaker 6: it certainly paints a picture of Robert anyway and puts
Speaker 6: him obviously, you know, handling those attached a cases.
Speaker 5: So yeah, you know, here's the situation the police and
Speaker 5: the prosecutor ultimately had. You have a young girl goes
Speaker 5: to this house, vanishes into it, and you have four
Speaker 5: one young man and three teenage boys, young teenage boys
Speaker 5: in the house. She's brutally murdered in the basement. Now,
Speaker 5: either they or one of them did it, or you
Speaker 5: have a phantom killer. That's that somehow snuck her into
Speaker 5: the into the house, murdered her and knuck off. And
Speaker 5: it's got to be one of those. It's it's it's
Speaker 5: it's not any other explanation, right, And then yet you
Speaker 5: have to put the evidence together to say who who
Speaker 5: did it. And as I said earlier, there are those
Speaker 5: people who don't believe that that, you know, Robert Gallup
Speaker 5: did the salone. Now that I spend hours, hour days
Speaker 5: with these policemen and and spoke ex extreme length and
Speaker 5: it questioned them repeatedly about about how they knew for
Speaker 5: a act there was only one killer. And their answer was,
Speaker 5: there's no forensic evidence on her body of two people
Speaker 5: that when two people are involved in the salt, there's
Speaker 5: evidence of it. And there was no evidence in the
Speaker 5: basement itself that two people had been involved in the murder.
Speaker 5: And when they lifted the blood and they lifted the
Speaker 5: sperm and they ran the tests, the tests were all
Speaker 5: of the body fluids came from two people, Robert Gallop
Speaker 5: and the victim, nobody else. So did John Jay lure
Speaker 5: her over? I don't know. I mean she didn't know,
Speaker 5: She didn't know her, She didn't know Robert. Why would
Speaker 5: she go to the Gallip house if Robert had called her?
Speaker 5: The caller said it was John. She said it was John,
Speaker 5: so his childer brother, you said earlier one of the
Speaker 5: young witnesses said that it was John Jay went to
Speaker 5: the door. I could conjecture as to what happened, but
Speaker 5: the police and the and the police conjectures they thought
Speaker 5: about it too, but they could not find any evidence,
Speaker 5: even a scintility of evidence that there was a second,
Speaker 5: second assailant involved in the.
Speaker 6: Murder, right, Yeah. There was something that I found interesting too,
Speaker 6: is that there was another girl that came forward and
Speaker 6: claimed that she had not only seen Kelly Ann screaming
Speaker 6: from a top window or an upstairs window, that she
Speaker 6: had also seen the actual murder by members of the
Speaker 6: entire family simultaneously somehow seeing both.
Speaker 5: Was that a little girl?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, you very young.
Speaker 5: Too, there were older There were elements of this that
Speaker 5: almost reminded me of the Salem witch witch trials. You know,
Speaker 5: there was a certain amount of hysteria that was occurring.
Speaker 5: You have to you know, people need to think about
Speaker 5: what his life. This is a nice, peaceful little street.
Speaker 5: This is not an inner city ghetto or a violent
Speaker 5: prone area. This is a nice little street. This is
Speaker 5: a street where your thirteen year old daughter can walk
Speaker 5: down the street and you're not going to be concerned.
Speaker 5: And and for this brutal of crying to happen in
Speaker 5: this basement, it caused everyone to re examine what kind
Speaker 5: of neighborhood do we live in? What are these people
Speaker 5: who live here really like the Gallops, You know, it
Speaker 5: sort of stayed to themselves. But as I say, Missus
Speaker 5: Gulf have been involved in the effort to get the
Speaker 5: street made one way, They were respected members of this neighborhood. Well,
Speaker 5: if these people can have a murder in their house,
Speaker 5: who else? What else is going on here? And imagination
Speaker 5: because of the brutality of this murder, and because of
Speaker 5: the way the story slowly unfolded in the newspapers and
Speaker 5: on television. You know, we're talking about it here in
Speaker 5: forty minutes, and we're laying this all out fairly quickly,
Speaker 5: and when the reader reads the book, that's the way
Speaker 5: they will read it. But that isn't the way it
Speaker 5: happened in the neighborhood. Little by little, more and more
Speaker 5: of this came out, and you know, people who don't
Speaker 5: do this kind of work for a living, or maybe
Speaker 5: today with the cable television shows that we have, people
Speaker 5: are more aware of this now than they used to be.
Speaker 5: But it's hard for the average person to really understand
Speaker 5: that people like this exist and that they exist in
Speaker 5: their neighborhood, and that a man like this could murder
Speaker 5: one of their children in such a brutal and savage way.
Speaker 5: Anything could, I mean, they could, than anything's possible.
Speaker 6: The other aspect of your book, though, is that you
Speaker 6: spend considerable time describing the scene following the discovery of
Speaker 6: the body, the suspicion that Kelly Ann is at the home,
Speaker 6: and then how the neighbors react, how the gallobs react you.
Speaker 6: So tell us a little bit about that, because there's
Speaker 6: very close that the police are called constantly for allegations
Speaker 6: of abuse and harassment. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about that, because it's a fascinating story as well.
Speaker 5: Years ago, I lived in central Phoenix on the street
Speaker 5: very much like Horton Horton Road, and there were flashing
Speaker 5: lights outside, and I walked outside and there was a
Speaker 5: police car, and it turned out that one of our neighbors,
Speaker 5: who lived in a rental had beat the crap out
Speaker 5: of his wife. She'd called the police. Well, he didn't
Speaker 5: want to go, and the police were trying to talk
Speaker 5: their way through this situation well before they finally arrested
Speaker 5: him and took him away. There must have been twenty
Speaker 5: five or thirty of us gathered outside to watch the spectacle,
Speaker 5: and that's what happened in Horton wrote, Once the words
Speaker 5: spread in the neighborhood like wildfire that a body had
Speaker 5: been found in this house, and the neighbors start gathering
Speaker 5: outside a vigil. The parents are there is this our daughter?
Speaker 5: You know, if this could this have been our daughter's fate?
Speaker 5: And in the police, so they don't want to say
Speaker 5: they don't know. They they I mean, there was so
Speaker 5: much damage done to her face, they're not I mean,
Speaker 5: they know it's her, it's got to be her, but
Speaker 5: they don't know. No, not in the sense where you
Speaker 5: go to someone and say, if I recall correctly who
Speaker 5: identified the body as I recall, it's not one of
Speaker 5: the parents. Who was somebody? No, it was.
Speaker 6: I don't know if it was a lawyer that was
Speaker 6: involved with them, a friend of the family, lawyer or
Speaker 6: something like that. So they didn't want they didn't want.
Speaker 5: The police didn't want the parents staff to see their
Speaker 5: daughter like this. No. Yeah, and so but they had
Speaker 5: to they had to put their mind not at ease,
Speaker 5: but they had to let the parents know that that
Speaker 5: that their daughter was dead. And and they wanted to
Speaker 5: identify who she was for a fact, even though they
Speaker 5: didn't have much doubt who she was. And if I
Speaker 5: recall correctly, Robert, but he just didn't he just wander off.
Speaker 5: Then he go off somewhere hang out. They had to
Speaker 5: put him under police, They had to put him under
Speaker 5: police surveillance because they this is their killer.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he had he eluded They were following and he
Speaker 6: eluded them. So yeah, yeah, and and then you know,
Speaker 6: the the continual h once once Robert is incarcerated and
Speaker 6: the bail is prohibitive. Once that happens, the family still
Speaker 6: is the gall of family, and that while both of
Speaker 6: them are claiming that both of the parents and the
Speaker 6: families are acting unreasonable toward each other, including other neighbors
Speaker 6: on the street itself. And it's to say the least,
Speaker 6: it gets very heated. There's been firecrackers and guns being
Speaker 6: shot off and so some serious stuff going on. And
Speaker 6: well that continues right to the trial.
Speaker 5: So yeah, the part of the story that intrigued me
Speaker 5: and the reason I wrote the book was how it
Speaker 5: destroyed the neighborhood. You know, initially, you know, it's like
Speaker 5: the the neighbors initially a lot of the neighbors just
Speaker 5: withheld judgment, which you know you would do until facts
Speaker 5: start to come out. And then it seemed that people
Speaker 5: begin to choose sides, you know, who's which side are
Speaker 5: you going to believe? And there were very unpleasant interactions
Speaker 5: between the family up through the trial and then for
Speaker 5: several years afterwards. As I recall, I think I was
Speaker 5: researching this story about three years after after events, and
Speaker 5: and there was there had been a lot of interaction
Speaker 5: between the families, could be the there was talk originally
Speaker 5: in the neighborhood wanted to buy the house and turn
Speaker 5: it into a park dedicated to Kelly, but that never happened,
Speaker 5: and of course the Gallups couldn't sell the house. Who
Speaker 5: wants to do the house? They were there, I think
Speaker 5: I heard recently, I think I got an email from
Speaker 5: someone telling me that the house had finally been sold
Speaker 5: and the Glups were moving well. But you know, you know,
Speaker 5: I I wouldn't have stayed in the neighborhood if it
Speaker 5: had been my daughter that was murdered. I wouldn't want
Speaker 5: to live near where all that had happened, you know,
Speaker 5: I was sort of I kind of thought it was
Speaker 5: curious both families stayed right. One of the one of
Speaker 5: the conclusions I reached is, you know, for the for
Speaker 5: the Tenuous family, he kind of delayed the grieving by
Speaker 5: being in this and antagonistic relationship with the Gallup family.
Speaker 5: But you know, we can say what we want to
Speaker 5: about mister and missus Gallup and how she wasn't a
Speaker 5: good housekeeper, and maybe that they were, maybe he was
Speaker 5: an odd guy. Uh, but the fact is they didn't
Speaker 5: have anything to do with his murder. And uh and
Speaker 5: to what extent they raised a monster? You know, I
Speaker 5: don't know. I uh, you know, I've known families that had,
Speaker 5: you know, five wonderful children and and the fifth was
Speaker 5: a psychopath. And I've known families that were where the
Speaker 5: children were all all uh, all this career criminals, and
Speaker 5: one of them was a Rhodes scholar.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: So I just you know, I've just reached a point
Speaker 5: in life where you just don't know. Yeah, And you know,
Speaker 5: they wanted to believe their son was innocent, and for
Speaker 5: a while they seemed to accept that he was guilty,
Speaker 5: and then there was a point in time in the
Speaker 5: trial where they seemed to form the opinion that that
Speaker 5: he wasn't guilty. But at the time I wrote the book,
Speaker 5: the father had for three years. Did you have to
Speaker 5: go visit a son. I don't know if you're.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that sort of tells you something, for sure.
Speaker 5: It does tell you something. You know, at some point
Speaker 5: where common sense has to take over.
Speaker 6: Yeah, for a while there, the father, like you say,
Speaker 6: at first, was cooperative and probably actually believed that the
Speaker 6: sons had something to do with it, and then at
Speaker 6: some point did adopt more of a defensive thing in
Speaker 6: terms of saying that maybe somebody snuck in and did
Speaker 6: this and so.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but he was.
Speaker 6: But the fight at the neighborhood before the trial, then
Speaker 6: the fight at the trial was interesting to see. Usually
Speaker 6: don't have that much disturbance and warring at a trial itself,
Speaker 6: but you certainly had it at this one, and the
Speaker 6: media probably.
Speaker 5: Yeah. One of the questions I think people have to
Speaker 5: ask is how much the media influenced would occurred, because
Speaker 5: this was one of the first murderers. I believe it
Speaker 5: was covered by court TV and the tabloids and New
Speaker 5: York tabloids were all over the story. The this this
Speaker 5: court room and court trial, the Amy Fisher murder happened,
Speaker 5: or the shooting rather happened about a year later. And
Speaker 5: it's a lot the same players, same court room, same investigators,
Speaker 5: same prosecutor, prosecuting office. And this one of the detective
Speaker 5: told me, he said, you know, in the time that
Speaker 5: we were investigating this murder and bringing him to trial,
Speaker 5: he said, lots of young women were murdered, Lots of
Speaker 5: thirteen year old girls were killed. He said, I could
Speaker 5: never figure out what the media obsession with this particular
Speaker 5: murder was. The ultimately the reaction of the neighbors, the
Speaker 5: bizarre stories that some of the kids were telling, It
Speaker 5: just became a media frenzy, and the immedia coverage itself.
Speaker 5: I'm convinced it sort of fed on itself and influenced
Speaker 5: a lot of this confrontation between between the families and
Speaker 5: the neighbors.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I certainly can agree with you. There. Another sort
Speaker 6: of sub text to your story is that the diligent
Speaker 6: and relentless detective Richard Wells, he's forty nine years old,
Speaker 6: and he takes his job very very seriously, And this
Speaker 6: guy's having a heart attack and still doesn't want to
Speaker 6: go to the hospital. He ends up in the hospital,
Speaker 6: but then his biggest worry is not dying, but you know,
Speaker 6: having to give up police work. So he's a real character.
Speaker 6: You know, you can't you can't create these kind of guys.
Speaker 6: You know, this guy's you know, so he's a very
Speaker 6: interesting character in this and relenting.
Speaker 5: They you know, one of the pleasures I've had in
Speaker 5: my in my life has been the opportunity to get
Speaker 5: to know a number of homicide detectives. And they are
Speaker 5: really a special breed. Uh, these guys, they uh, they
Speaker 5: really take their work seriously. He took he took a
Speaker 5: photograph of her and put it in his wallet to
Speaker 5: remind himself every day that this is who he's doing
Speaker 5: the investigation for. You know that that mutilated body that
Speaker 5: he saw on the basement wasn't Kelly. Kelly was you know,
Speaker 5: the pretty smiling girl on the cover of the book.
Speaker 5: That's yeah, that's who Kelly was.
Speaker 6: You know. I know that I had the great opportunity
Speaker 6: to meet uh, you know when I was involved in
Speaker 6: my case, the the homicide cop that was involved as
Speaker 6: the lead detective was the guy that helped me keep
Speaker 6: my sanity because I ended up, by virtue of my journalism,
Speaker 6: ended up being a witness at this trial. So the
Speaker 6: person that helped me stay grounded and made me feel
Speaker 6: like what I was doing was important, and anytime I
Speaker 6: wanted to reach out and talk to him, he was there.
Speaker 6: I spoke to another homicide detective that is actually the
Speaker 6: head of the police Association and he thanked me for
Speaker 6: my efforts. And I said to both of these guys
Speaker 6: that that is the police that everyone has to respect.
Speaker 6: It's the job no one wants. Nobody wants to go
Speaker 6: into these crime scenes. How are you ever going to
Speaker 6: get those images out of your head? And then they
Speaker 6: still have to be courteous and polite and respectful to
Speaker 6: these people that you and I would I don't know
Speaker 6: what we would do to these people when they're smiling.
Speaker 5: And yeah, they have to go to the autopsies, you know,
Speaker 5: they have to be there for the collection of the evidence.
Speaker 5: They don't get the images. It's like it's like combat veterans.
Speaker 5: You know, you never you never shake these these images
Speaker 5: of these you never do no.
Speaker 6: Now, what was the end result at the trial of
Speaker 6: Robert Gollub.
Speaker 5: He was convicted of the murder. I didn't think he
Speaker 5: put on all that good of defense, but you know,
Speaker 5: I spoke with his defense attorney, and you know, you you,
Speaker 5: you know, these criminal defense attorneys are also kind of
Speaker 5: their own their own breed, some of them. You see it.
Speaker 5: You see it all the time, uh, in newspapers or
Speaker 5: on television, where their ideas they're going to get they're
Speaker 5: going to get the guy out no matter what, you know,
Speaker 5: by any by hooker, crook, and it's up to the
Speaker 5: up to the prosecution to prove their case, by God,
Speaker 5: and if they get a guilty person off to some technicality,
Speaker 5: then then I say, say he was innocent or she
Speaker 5: was innocent. But a lot of a lot of these
Speaker 5: criminal defense attorneys take a different tact. They're there. They
Speaker 5: view their job as making sure that the state does
Speaker 5: what it's supposed to do, that it's not real road
Speaker 5: in the wrong guy, that the level of evidence rises
Speaker 5: to the legal standard, and they're there to present a
Speaker 5: zealous defense for their client. But they don't think they're
Speaker 5: there to break the rules. They don't think they're there
Speaker 5: to do any dirt that it takes to get their
Speaker 5: guy off. It's their giant to bend their client. And
Speaker 5: he was that kind of a defense attorney, And you
Speaker 5: know that's that's the defense attorney I can live with.
Speaker 5: And if you know, if I was ever charged, I
Speaker 5: don't know which kind I would want to have. But
Speaker 5: he worked hard at defending Robert. You didn't have a
Speaker 5: lot to work with once the court ruled on the DNA.
Speaker 5: And you know, I think the problem, the problem jurys
Speaker 5: have in cases like this is they'll kind of get
Speaker 5: hung up on motive, you know, because it's hard. It's
Speaker 5: hard to get people to understand that that mutilated body
Speaker 5: is the motive. That's right, that's the motive. He didn't
Speaker 5: want to He didn't want to steal money from her.
Speaker 5: He didn't want to. He didn't want to rape her
Speaker 5: and lock her in a room where he could have
Speaker 5: sexual access to her. He wanted to derive his his
Speaker 5: sado mastachistic sexual pleasure from from from gutting her wife.
Speaker 5: She was still alive, and that that's what aroused him.
Speaker 5: That's what brought him what he wanted.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's no logical Yeah, there's no logical reasoning. That's
Speaker 6: what people try to apply some kind of their own
Speaker 6: sense of logic for the reasoning for the motive. And
Speaker 6: the motive, like you say, is the simple act of
Speaker 6: committing the murder and the mutilation, and and then from
Speaker 6: that becomes a sexual release, and and then from there
Speaker 6: who knows, like in some cases, then they want to
Speaker 6: taunt the victim, they want to talk to police, they
Speaker 6: want to be famous. It's there's who knows, there's a whole,
Speaker 6: there's all kinds of Again, you can fly normal logical
Speaker 6: reasoning with these people at all.
Speaker 5: So I spoke to us psychiatrists is specialized in in
Speaker 5: Mendivian psychology, and asked him about this, and he said, look,
Speaker 5: he said, when these guys go off to prison, he said,
Speaker 5: they remember everything they did down to the smallest detail.
Speaker 5: This is a memory they have soaked in like a sponge.
Speaker 5: And he said, these guys get off on this murder
Speaker 5: again and again and again. They put it away in
Speaker 5: their mental library and they bring the emotion picture out
Speaker 5: with regularity. He said that on the rare occasions these
Speaker 5: guys decide to come clean and tell the truth. It
Speaker 5: can be twenty years later, it can be thirty years later,
Speaker 5: and they will be able to give the police specific
Speaker 5: details of that murder that the police didn't even figure
Speaker 5: out at the time. And if they've committed thirty murders.
Speaker 5: They remember every single one of them, justice vividly. Robert
Speaker 5: Gallup has relived his murder and mutilation of this young
Speaker 5: girl a thousand times since he did it. That's his
Speaker 5: own little fantasy.
Speaker 6: Now, yeah, certainly, certainly, I've had the same experience myself.
Speaker 6: And the person continues to try to drum up publicity
Speaker 6: and contact the media and do everything to relive this
Speaker 6: and is very proud of his crime, very proud of
Speaker 6: his murder and his celebrity that he's gained as a result.
Speaker 6: It's incredible. So I know what you're talking about. What
Speaker 6: I wanted to mention too, is I like that you
Speaker 6: had said something that is very rare, because I think
Speaker 6: some people want to give the benefits of the doubt
Speaker 6: to our beloved judicial system. But when you talked about
Speaker 6: a very vigorous defense by a defense, we have a
Speaker 6: little different situation in Canada where we don't have the
Speaker 6: judge or the judicial system assign the accused a lawyer.
Speaker 6: In fact, the accused has a pick of lawyers as
Speaker 6: long as that lawyer is willing to take the lesser
Speaker 6: fee of what's called legal aid. But in a particular
Speaker 6: case that I was involved with. That particular lawyer boasts
Speaker 6: about being the most experienced and prolific murder trial lawyer
Speaker 6: in the English speaking world, with about seven hundred cases
Speaker 6: under his belt. And when we talk about a vigorous defense,
Speaker 6: I agree with you that there certainly, I think some
Speaker 6: people have lost their moral compass, because the right for
Speaker 6: an accused to have a defense does not mean that
Speaker 6: you grand stand at press releases and that you actually
Speaker 6: lie for your client or have them lie on the stand.
Speaker 6: And you see various levels of vigorous defense, but at
Speaker 6: least when the state is paying for it, you see
Speaker 6: that at least that lawyer, that defense lawyer doesn't go
Speaker 6: into the realm of trying to discredit witnesses and end victims.
Speaker 6: And as you had mentioned, there are various levels of
Speaker 6: what a lawyer will do according to his own ethical standards.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, It's just as homicide detectives are unique breed,
Speaker 5: these criminal defense attorneys are their own unique breed as well,
Speaker 5: And I've talked with a number of them about it
Speaker 5: and how they rationalize what they do. You know, if
Speaker 5: a lawyer once told me, he said, everything you need
Speaker 5: to know about the law, you can get out of
Speaker 5: a book. He said, the reason you go to law
Speaker 5: school isn't to learn about the law, it's to learn
Speaker 5: how to think like a lawyer. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's what the truth or justice?
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's how you can defend someone like blubber Gallup.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now we just have about five minutes
Speaker 6: or Soba. I just wanted to tell people that you
Speaker 6: mentioned that you wrote this book in ninety four. Maybe
Speaker 6: you can tell us what your what your latest project is,
Speaker 6: or maybe the last projects that you've done, and just
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about your some of the
Speaker 6: books that you've written in this true crime genre, and
Speaker 6: maybe something that you're working on right now.
Speaker 5: Well, one of the reasons I've been so vague on
Speaker 5: this book, this is the last true crime book I wrote.
Speaker 5: I haven't written any of them since then. I write
Speaker 5: both mysteries and non fiction. I have a book that's
Speaker 5: now out of print in English called Unknown Seas The
Speaker 5: History of the Portuguese Discoveries that it's going to be
Speaker 5: published in Brazil next month. But I'm currently writing the
Speaker 5: Sumhat Murder series, which is a series of murder mysteries
Speaker 5: set atop the highest mountain of each of the world's
Speaker 5: seven seven highest peak and the first of them, Murder
Speaker 5: on Everest, came out last year. The concept is that
Speaker 5: you take a mountain climbing expedition that's going to climb
Speaker 5: Everest or Mount Elbris or Mount McKinley or aw Coancagoa
Speaker 5: and South America, and you add all the danger that
Speaker 5: goes with being in a remote place and climbing, and
Speaker 5: then you add a murder mystery to it and makes
Speaker 5: fix for an interesting story. It's a series of seven books.
Speaker 5: I'm currently writing a book number five. They're being released
Speaker 5: about six months apart, but it's a summer murder series.
Speaker 5: Readers should start with Murder on Everest. I do a
Speaker 5: lot of ghostwriting for businessmen, memoirs, people who have an
Speaker 5: idea of a novel that they would like to like
Speaker 5: to have written for them. And ghost writings has been
Speaker 5: my main support here for the last fifteen tethy years.
Speaker 5: But I still find time to write my own books.
Speaker 6: And wow, and then do you have a website where
Speaker 6: the people.
Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, they can go to Ronald J. Watkins dot com.
Speaker 5: Or if they're interested in and see what I do
Speaker 5: as a ghostwriter, they can go to the shorter name
Speaker 5: Ron Watkins dot com. They just googled me because they'll
Speaker 5: all pop up.
Speaker 6: Now, how many true crime books did you end up writing,
Speaker 6: including against her?
Speaker 5: Well, not many. You know, I worked in the field
Speaker 5: I was in. I was an adult probation officer for
Speaker 5: fifteen years and and I really didn't have much of
Speaker 5: an appetite to write true crime. I became a writer
Speaker 5: to kind of get away from all that, not to
Speaker 5: just do it. My agent has always pushed me towards
Speaker 5: true crime and that, and in fact, that's how he
Speaker 5: ended up running against her will. It was a project
Speaker 5: he brought to me and wanted me to write for him.
Speaker 5: But I wrote Evil Intentions was my first true crime book.
Speaker 5: Was my second book. When I had been a probation officer,
Speaker 5: I worked for seven years as a pre sentencing investigator,
Speaker 5: and I did five first degree murder presentencing reports and
Speaker 5: in those I only recommended the death penalty once. And
Speaker 5: that's the subject of Evil Intentions, And then I wrote.
Speaker 5: Then I wrote a second book was surely true crime,
Speaker 5: and just about an American family owned a business and
Speaker 5: the struggle for control of the business. And there was
Speaker 5: a homicide that occurred in the middle of the fight
Speaker 5: for control of the company, and there were suspicions cast
Speaker 5: and I told my agent then I said, look, I
Speaker 5: really don't want to write about murders. I don't want
Speaker 5: to do that anymore. And he said, okay, write something else.
Speaker 5: Many two years later he says, listen, there's this murder,
Speaker 5: and well, really, i'd really appreciate if you do write
Speaker 5: a book on it. For me. It's okay, but no more.
Speaker 6: Well, we we're we're happy that you did this last
Speaker 6: book in true crime anyway, because it's brilliant and it's uh,
Speaker 6: you know, it's a fantastic read, and it's an amazing story.
Speaker 6: It's just a very very interesting read. And I want
Speaker 6: to thank you very much for coming on my little
Speaker 6: program and talking about your book against your will.
Speaker 5: Sorry, I was like coming in at a time zone difference,
Speaker 5: and you know, Arizona doesn't go on daylight saving so uh,
Speaker 5: the hour different. Everyone else changes, and we have a
Speaker 5: little trouble here sometimes keeping track of what time the
Speaker 5: other part of the country is.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's my mistake too, not realizing some of
Speaker 6: this myself, because we just had our saving time adjusted,
Speaker 6: so it wreaks some havoc with a couple of guests,
Speaker 6: so I apologize for that, but I want to thank
Speaker 6: you very much for appearing on the program. And it
Speaker 6: has been a pleasure, a fascinating hour, and it's a
Speaker 6: it's gone by very quickly, so I want to thank
Speaker 6: you very much, ron For people that have been listening
Speaker 6: to the program, this is Ronald jay Watkins with his
Speaker 6: excellent book Against Her Will, and again go to Ronald
Speaker 6: Jay Watkins and if you need his services or you're
Speaker 6: interested in what else is he's doing and his fiction series.
Speaker 6: So thank you very much again ron for coming on
Speaker 6: for a great program, and have yourself a good evening
Speaker 6: pleasure you too, Bye, good night. Even listening to the
Speaker 6: program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 6: history and the authors that have written about them, good Night,