WEBVTT 1 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:26.000 Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis, your 2 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:28.960 hosts up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire now for a week 3 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:31.199 and then back down to South Carolina and then back 4 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.600 up here for the summer about July first or so 5 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:40.439 something like that. So this is one of actually three shows. 6 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:44.479 First one is here with Gary Hezelton and he's going 7 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:48.679 to be talking about Roswell the UK, which is the 8 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:53.159 Rendel Schimp Forrest, one of the top UFO sightings, a 9 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.039 week long adventure. We're going to be talking about that, 10 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:58.079 and there's still a lot of ongoing things there. It's 11 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:01.799 a real mystery. And so then at seven o'clock the 12 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:04.760 regular time, we have Bob Sallas. He's going to be 13 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:08.560 rebutting the Wall Street Journal article that came out last week. 14 00:01:08.599 --> 00:01:12.560 A lot of people are pretty upset about that. And 15 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.719 so also Kevin Randall's going to be joining us about 16 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:19.519 seven thirty halfway through. He wrote a really good blog 17 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:23.519 actually standing up for a Bob Salas and that whole situation. 18 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:28.280 So that's today at seven pm, and then on Friday 19 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:33.159 at six pm Eastern, we have Paul Heinik j Allen 20 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:36.159 Heineck's Sun and he's going to be talking about UFOs 21 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:40.719 and AI. He likes to call it augmented intelligence, not 22 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:44.640 artificial intelligence, but it's brilliant. I did a pre record 23 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:47.359 with him at Contacting the Desert. That'll be a really 24 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:51.000 good show coming out Friday. Our blog this week is 25 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:58.319 UFO Occupants in the nineteen seventy eight Nightcap UFO Chronology, 26 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:03.040 so check that out from Charles Lear. He writes blogs 27 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:06.879 every week for us and eventually they get turned into 28 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:10.520 audio blogs, so check that out. That's in the podcast 29 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:12.759 stream and all that. Anyone can support the show if 30 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.960 you'd like to. That link is right over on podcastufo 31 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:20.479 dot com under a Patreon. Also, it's come to my 32 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:27.599 attention that we are the longest running consistent podcast on UFOs. 33 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:30.319 Let me just break that down a little bit. So 34 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:33.960 twenty eleven, we've been going straight ever since then. Now, 35 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:37.439 there were podcasts, a couple of podcasts on the topic 36 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:41.879 prior to me, but those people are either not consistent 37 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.639 or they are no longer doing the podcast. So anyway, 38 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:49.599 I think it's kind of an honor to have that, 39 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.120 you know, a little feather in the cap that it's 40 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.960 the longest running so far. I have no plans to 41 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.120 end it. As you see, I added another show per week. 42 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.800 So either that I'm crazy or I just really enjoy 43 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:06.960 this or both. But anyway, it's about time for me 44 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.599 to introduce my guests. Gary, Welcome to the show. 45 00:03:11.599 --> 00:03:13.439 Hi Martin, thanks for having me back. 46 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:16.439 Yes, I know, how do you remember what you hear? 47 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:16.800 That was? 48 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:20.680 No, but I would hazard a guest these three or 49 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:22.199 four years ago? Oh? 50 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:22.599 Is that all? 51 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:22.879 It was? 52 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:23.719 Okay? All right? 53 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.960 But anyway, I really love having police officers on the show. 54 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.639 You know, I years ago I remember having sort of 55 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:36.400 a debate argument with Seth Shawstack from SETI and him 56 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.840 saying basically that you know, there are no good observers, 57 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.199 And I said, well, what about astronauts, what about pilots, 58 00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:43.159 what about policemen? 59 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:45.479 You said, no, they're no better than anyone else. 60 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:51.360 I disagree with that, and you know, because of all 61 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.039 the different Well, well, first of all, I think policemen 62 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:57.599 are trained to be really good observers. They do this 63 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.360 thing in the States anyway, where they actually you know, 64 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.479 have a disruption during training and then you're supposed to 65 00:04:06.039 --> 00:04:07.840 and it kind of throws you for a loop, and 66 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:11.439 then you're supposed to write down and every single thing 67 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:14.479 that you observed when you weren't even expecting to have 68 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:16.480 to do that. And I guess that's part of the training, 69 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:18.360 as you're supposed to be really good observers. 70 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:24.120 Well, I would certainly say that police officers can be 71 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:29.360 very good witnesses. They're not infallible, but they are trained 72 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:35.040 to record literally through the mind's eye, everything that they're experiencing. 73 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:39.240 And because things are written eventually for usually a court, 74 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:43.040 whether it be an inquest or a criminal court, they're 75 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.079 in their mind's eye, they're thinking, what time was that happened? 76 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.199 What time did that happen? Right? Three people over there? 77 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:52.120 I must make a mental note of that, So you're 78 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:55.639 continually assessing. So what I would say is far and 79 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:59.360 above a member of the public who hasn't had that 80 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.000 kind of training, then they are in fact very good witnesses. 81 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:06.600 That's not to say the cartets make mistakes. But where 82 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:09.519 I would say it gets even more impressive is if 83 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:15.720 you have multiple police officers for whatever event, corroborating each other. 84 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.040 And sometimes in a lot of the police cases on 85 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:24.600 my PROOFCE police database, they will there's maybe ten twelve 86 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:29.720 officers from six geographical locations, six different cars are in 87 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:32.319 the countryside and they're all looking at the same thing. 88 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:36.000 Are you telling me that they're not seeing something that's bizarre? 89 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:39.319 That's wrong. So I think the real answer is a 90 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:42.160 police officer can be very good. However, you said it 91 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:45.959 earlier for me, fighter pilots should be the best pilots 92 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:48.879 and should be the best witnesses, and they are the better. 93 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:52.560 Said that in nineteen fifty five. 94 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.560 Well, you know the you know, the other thing about 95 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:58.959 this whole thing is, I mean, look what the ridicule 96 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:02.879 and the problem that one's are more had in the 97 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:06.199 Secoral case going back to nineteen sixty four. I think 98 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:09.639 it is, you know, I mean, he did not want 99 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:11.720 any of this attention, and I don't think any police 100 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:16.439 officer wants that attention, So why they make something up? 101 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:17.920 That's just the other part of it. 102 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.959 Police officers are lowed to put their head above the 103 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:25.720 parapet and say I saw ufour because there is an 104 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:30.920 implicit risk that they face one historical ridicule and still 105 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.839 to a degree now. But the most fearful thing for 106 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:38.160 a police officer saying they've seen a ufour is they 107 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:42.839 genuinely perceive that it may affect their career. It might 108 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:47.800 affect their promotion, their pension and things like that very real. 109 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.759 So when an officer does go on the record, they're 110 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:53.480 not stupid. They have seen what they've seen as best 111 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:54.399 they can describe. 112 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:55.319 That's right. 113 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.759 And last weekend I had the pleasure of hanging out 114 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:02.399 with you know, few police officers I do a podcast. 115 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.000 I gave them your information to get a hold of you. Actually, 116 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:10.839 Mary Anne, Rob and Dave Rich great great people and 117 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:11.639 they well. 118 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:13.639 They reach out to me. I'd love to talk to them. 119 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:14.879 Yeah, yeah, excellent. 120 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:21.920 So before you became a police officer, you were in 121 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:24.160 the service, right, Yeah. 122 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:27.800 Between nineteen eighty three and nineteen eighty nine, I served 123 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:31.319 in the Royal Air Force as a police officer. Now 124 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:33.839 that's not a high rank, that's just a basic aim 125 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:38.000 and rank. I was a corporal, but effectively of my 126 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.920 six years RIF service, for three of those years I 127 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:47.879 worked on two nuclear bases, ARIF Hontington in Suffolk, not 128 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:51.639 a million miles away from Reynolds from Forest and also 129 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:55.480 ARIF Larbrook in what was then West Germany. And the 130 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.480 point I'm making is I did exactly the same job 131 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:02.920 as the US there for security police officers did at 132 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:08.959 rentalson I guarded nuclear weapons weapons storage area that carried 133 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:14.879 tactical nuclear weapons for aircraft, small yield tactical nuclear weapons. 134 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:16.839 Ah uh huh uh. 135 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:19.920 You know, when I've I've talked the last time I 136 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:23.199 spoke with Colonel Charles Holt, and we can jump into 137 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:25.480 you know, the rendil from force case of course, But 138 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.319 the last time I spoke with him, and I mentioned, 139 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.799 I asked the question were the were there are nuclear 140 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:38.279 arms there? And he got very upset, you know, because 141 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:39.279 he's not supposed. 142 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:43.360 To talk about it either confirm or deny. Yes, will say, but. 143 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:46.639 He seemed to get a little bit troubled that I 144 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.639 asked him that question, and you know, I didn't realize 145 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.960 it was going to you know, upset. 146 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:57.080 Not And here's a conundrum, Uh Whilst he says that personally, 147 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.360 because he's tied to his use as a senior officer, 148 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:05.320 why then did he appear. It's a National Press Club 149 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:10.360 event organized by Robert Hastings based on his book UFOs 150 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:12.720 and Newts, and he gave an afford David and if 151 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:14.840 you read through that, he signed it and he basically 152 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:17.360 said a lot of people on the base have confirmed 153 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.159 that you're dealing with nuclear weapons. So it was it's 154 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:21.320 play onwards. 155 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:25.120 Yeah, yeah, well anyway, that's here there at this point. 156 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:27.879 So we're going all the way back to December of 157 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:32.840 nineteen eighty. Now here's the thing. You've heard everything about 158 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.440 this case. You dove into it deeply, and you know, 159 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.559 there's been other books on it, and you know, and 160 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.639 then the Larry Warren debacle all that, you know, but 161 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:47.399 which Peter Robbins on this show apologized to the public 162 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:51.320 for being involved in that, which I thought that was, 163 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:53.559 you know, pretty big of him to do that. But 164 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:57.360 still so there's these books on it, but there's also 165 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:02.799 lots of people that have tried to you know, debunk 166 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:04.679 I guess you would call it by you know, the 167 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:07.799 Lighthouse story and all that. And is that still an 168 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:12.559 ongoing effort of you know, of skeptics to try to 169 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:14.559 make rendelsom force of nothing. 170 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:17.919 It is. But let me address the first point that 171 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:22.840 you raised, the Larry Warren debacle. Indeed, there has been 172 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.639 a debarcle because the reality was that during the course 173 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.679 of my five years of research, I came across a 174 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:34.039 witness who corroborated him almost word for word. Sergeant Adrian Beastinza, 175 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:37.000 and that was part of the debacle because the people 176 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:40.120 who did not want that witness to come forward, did 177 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.360 not want that voice to be heard. And fortunately for me, 178 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:46.039 after two years of trying, I got hold of him 179 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.519 and he basically got it off his chest and he 180 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:53.480 said there was a cordon of security police, there was 181 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:57.960 a second landing. There was It was being filmed, not 182 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.440 on still cameras, but it was being filmed on early video. 183 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:06.919 And it was also on Cinny film that Colonel Williams, 184 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:10.399 the base commander, turned up and there were entities. Now 185 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.399 he didn't call them entities, Larry Warren call them kind 186 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:19.039 of entities, childlike. And this didn't come out until two 187 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:22.559 thoy nineteen, I think, when I did the interview with him. 188 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.279 And yet this information is still not really out there 189 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.360 despite my book coming out in February of twenty twenty three. 190 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.039 Sergeant Adrian Bustin's has suffered PTSD and he said Larry 191 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:38.919 Warren was closer to that second landing craft than I was. Now, 192 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.399 how many people in the United States have heard of this? 193 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.639 None because none of you report it, So there's a 194 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:48.000 big you know, I think a lot of the people 195 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:51.960 in America do not realize unless they've read my book, 196 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:54.399 just the extent of some of the things that I 197 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.919 found out. And so that's not the dibicle. The dibarcle 198 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:00.519 was the people who really trying to ridic him and 199 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.240 say he wasn't there, he made it all up. Whatever, 200 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:07.600 that's a misnormal. That's there were people who were actively 201 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.320 wanting to control the narrative. Right, that's enough said on that. 202 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:14.000 Do skeptics still try to go in nowhere? Not so 203 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.720 much now. I remember doing a piece for the BBC 204 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:21.519 maybe eighteen months ago, and the BBC had historically always 205 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.279 been very skeptical. But I did a piece and we 206 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:27.360 went out in the forest. I took a team around 207 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:29.440 and the piece that came out and of course you 208 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.159 never have a clue on how the edit's going to be, 209 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:34.960 but they came out and it was very positive that 210 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.679 something really did happen there. So it just shows that 211 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:40.679 things can change. But you need to read the book 212 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.600 to realize that. After five years of deep research in 213 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:46.960 this case, and I've been I knew of it for 214 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:49.360 a long long time. I had researched it, but I 215 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:53.639 went into a deep, deep dive research five years of research. 216 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:57.159 At the end of it, I concluded there were seventeen 217 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:05.360 different times UFO events, seventeen different times UFO events, various craft, 218 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.279 various descriptions over not three days as we've been led 219 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.039 to believe for the last twenty five years, about a 220 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:14.919 week long and why a week long? Because a witness 221 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:20.039 called Steve Wagner m and Steve Wagner retired. He came 222 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:23.799 forward to say that he'd attended an event by the 223 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:30.559 East Skate at Woodbridge on December the twenty third, and 224 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.200 there he didn't see a craft. But the story was 225 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:37.559 that he was called with a colleague to go to 226 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.039 the East Skate and a police officer had been upset 227 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.600 and said, I've seen something go into the forest behind 228 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.279 and it appeared to come down behind some trees less 229 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:52.039 than one hundred and fifty meters from the East Skate. Now, 230 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.679 nobody's ever said they've seen anything going to the trees 231 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.639 that close. And they said, well, what was it? He said, well, 232 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:00.320 we didn't see anything, but when we made a check 233 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.240 of the area, we found a clearing and we found 234 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:10.320 three equilateral depression triangle depressions, but these weren't eight inches 235 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:14.159 across like Jim Penison and John Burrow's account. These were 236 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:22.799 each five feet across. Now likes that's a huge craft 237 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:25.919 of some descriptions come down. No wonder the airmen on 238 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:30.279 the East Gate was terrified. I would have been Wow. 239 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:34.080 Okay, you know, I forget that a lot. I have 240 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.360 a lot of new people. There are a lot of 241 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.840 new people that listen to this. The regular listeners of 242 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:44.240 the show are have rendersrom force. They know inside and out, 243 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:45.159 you know, they. 244 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.559 Don't there are no but I mean they know the 245 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:48.960 general story, is what I'm saying. 246 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.200 But so I'm going to ask you, for the person 247 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.080 that doesn't know the story, if you can spend like 248 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:57.720 five minutes or something like ten minutes and just explain 249 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:02.759 real quickly, you know, the events that at least that 250 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:04.960 are already known, and then we can go through it, 251 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:07.679 you know, the things that you've uncovered. 252 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:14.559 Okay, twenty seventeen when I began my deep dive research. Okay, 253 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:19.120 so let's go pre twenty seventeen, the accepted story that 254 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:24.600 had emerged since nineteen eighty or really since the famous 255 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.080 News of the World article in October nineteen eighty three. 256 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.840 Ufour Lands in Suffolk and it's official. Here's what was 257 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.600 accepted as the narrative for and still is into most 258 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:41.360 regards unless you've read my book, is that basically the 259 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:46.960 first night of activity, it was deemed the Jim Peniston 260 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:51.519 John Burrows ed ca Banzac lights seen by the Eastkate 261 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.480 to go out and eventually, having followed through various parts 262 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:58.679 of the forest, eventually Jim Peniston says in a small 263 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:03.039 cleary he saw small triangular craft approximately three meters by 264 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:06.519 three meters two meters at its highest point, and he 265 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.360 said it was at or near the ground, and he 266 00:16:09.399 --> 00:16:13.200 said it looked like black glass. He said it was 267 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.000 warm to the touch, it felt like glass, and at 268 00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:19.519 some point it'd had it raised etchings and tymbals which 269 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.960 he drew in his pocketbook, et cetera, et cetera. John 270 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.559 Burrows never described it as a craft. He basically said 271 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:28.200 it was a bank of lights because his perception was 272 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.679 perhaps maybe thirty or forty meters away from that, so 273 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.720 he has got a natural different perception. And what he 274 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:39.120 basically suggested was there appeared to be a bank of 275 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.440 lights that suggested a structure behind it. That's basically what 276 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.000 John Borrows said. Okay, so that was like the accepted 277 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:47.960 part of the story, and it was also in the 278 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.480 Halt memorandum, which I'll come on to a minute. Secondly, 279 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:56.440 a much less well known in chronological order was what 280 00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.159 happened to Bonnie Tampling, who was leftendant. Bonnie Tampling, one 281 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:04.799 of the four shift commanders. Well, everybody over the years 282 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:09.119 had realized that something traumatic had happened to her because 283 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:14.279 she was heard over the radio help Help Help Bobby, 284 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:17.960 Bobby shouting for Sergeant Robert ball On, one of her 285 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.839 shift members, and something had happened to us that was 286 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:23.759 so distressing that basically she never really went back on 287 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:26.400 shift again, but we didn't know the story. I'll come 288 00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:30.680 to that in the post twenty seventeen after my investigation, 289 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:32.960 because I've got a big lead on that. That solves 290 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:36.759 what happened to her, all right, And of course what 291 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.359 was really well known through the Halt memorandum, and that 292 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:44.200 News of the World article was referenced to when Colonel Holt, 293 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.799 literally two nights after the peniculin Borrow's account, led a 294 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.759 small team five people four others plus Colonel Holt or 295 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.799 Lieutenant Colonel Holt as he was then led a team 296 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:59.920 out into the forest. The route in the forest for 297 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.440 four and a half hours, and originally they go out 298 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.640 to the original land in sight and they do kind 299 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:11.720 of a forensic examination of the scene, albeit two days 300 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:14.640 after the events, and they'd been called out there because 301 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:17.279 they were told that earlier there'd been a sighting a UFO, 302 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.400 and basically he organized the team to get out there, 303 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:24.240 and when they got their no UFO was scene, but 304 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:27.519 they thought, well, I've assembled this team, we'll do a 305 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:31.160 forensic examination of the scene. So they took soil samples, 306 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.880 they took radiation readings, etc. The key point is that 307 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.440 whilst we're out there, they then see a light themselves, 308 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.920 which then seems to be moving under the canopy of 309 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.240 trees a short distance away. It would sometimes come towards them, 310 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.640 they move away, they follow it through the trees and 311 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.799 eventually they get to the edge of a farmer's field 312 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.200 which was then a grass field, and across this field 313 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:59.519 was a farmhouse. Now, the distance from the edge of 314 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.680 the field the edge of the forest where they were 315 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:05.400 to the farm house virtually opposite to their perspective of 316 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:09.720 where they came out, was approximately three hundred meters and 317 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.279 you clearly see the farmhouse, and they had an early 318 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:18.039 night vision camera scope to look through, and Colonel Holt 319 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:21.000 said to me personally. I went round the forest with 320 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:26.079 him in two thousand and ten and for a documentary 321 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.519 that never aired, But I took him around and said, look, 322 00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:31.440 can we go through as as per your audio tape, 323 00:19:31.480 --> 00:19:35.200 the famous audio tape that you recorded that night of 324 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:39.039 those live events. And he took me to opposite the field, 325 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:41.240 and there's a tree there that I called the halt 326 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.359 Market tree. And he said, when we first saw the 327 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.119 UFO out in the open, and I not through the 328 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:51.480 forest and under the canopy of trees, we were looking 329 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.000 across towards a farm house. And he says, to the 330 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.640 left of the farmhouse, low to the ground, approximately the 331 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:01.240 size of a car, was a red glower object that 332 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.480 they could also see through the scope. Are clearly there, 333 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:08.640 just hovering just above the surface of grassed area. But 334 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:10.440 he said, here's the thing, And this is what he 335 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.920 said to me in twenty ten. He says, people go 336 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.640 on about the lighthouse. He says, well, I'd take many 337 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.680 of my friends out or visitors when they came to 338 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.480 the base, out to the lighthouse because it's rather pretty, 339 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.839 and there's a nice Norman keep there, and there's some 340 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:28.759 nice pubs whatever. So he regularly took people out there. 341 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.079 He knew where it was on the horizon, and he 342 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:35.000 said the lighthouse was to the right of the farmhouse, 343 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:37.319 and he said I could see it bleeping every five seconds. 344 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.279 That's what he told me. So the clear thing here 345 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.440 is for those people who still want to talk about lighthouses, 346 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:47.119 which is always, always has been made up by the present, 347 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:50.599 was ludicrous was that it was to the UFO. He 348 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.640 was looking at the object, whatever it was, was low 349 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:55.359 to the ground, to the left of the farmhouse, and 350 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.079 he said it was quite close to the farmhouse, and 351 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.359 he said it was that bright it appeared to be 352 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.039 reflecting into the windows of the farmhouse, and it made 353 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:07.240 it look like the farmhouse was on fire. But the 354 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:12.279 clear point there is the lighthouse was about five miles 355 00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:14.880 away on the right of the farmhouse, so it could 356 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.640 never have been the lighthouse. So those are the three events, 357 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.920 and that narrative is literally in my opinion, based on 358 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.559 all of my research and based as a former detective 359 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:26.880 of nineteen years police officer of twenty four years. I 360 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:29.960 did this as a cold case review. I took all 361 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.119 of personalities out of it and just look for the facts, 362 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.400 look for old interviews, look for new interviews. Could I 363 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.079 reinterview people, et cetera. And at the end of that 364 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:44.400 seventeen different time duo four events beginning now with that 365 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:50.000 event seen by well physical evidence of some descriptions on 366 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:53.559 the December the twenty third, and he's pretty animate that 367 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:56.440 it was December the twenty third. In the end, I 368 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.400 don't think we're ever going to know now and pin 369 00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:03.079 down day because too much time has elapsed. But people's 370 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.839 memories of certain things are still very strong, and I 371 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:09.559 still believe there are many more US Air Force Security 372 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:14.000 Police witnesses to come forward. So that's the story pre 373 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.759 twenty seventeen. Do you now want me to go on 374 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.400 to what I found out? 375 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:19.839 Sure, yes, of course. 376 00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:21.960 All right. Well, one of the big things there was 377 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:24.519 the m and Steve Wagner I just told you what 378 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:29.839 he's found, the depressions that alludes to something unidentified landing 379 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:33.200 in a clearing that was much larger than what would 380 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:36.039 be described as the first Night landing, involving Jim Paniston. 381 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.680 John Burrow's right. Let's go back to Bonnie Tampling, Lieutenant 382 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.680 Bonnie Tampling. We all knew that something had happened. Various 383 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:48.359 people like Laurie Bowen and Jim Tremontozi had gone on 384 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.000 the record saying I'd heard her other radio screaming, Bobby, Bobby, help. 385 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:55.200 Something had happened to but we didn't know what well. 386 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:59.400 One of the aimen that I spoke to was a 387 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:04.200 guy called m and Michael Stacy Smith, and he'd actually 388 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:07.079 had an earlier sight in I think it was in 389 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.279 July of nineteen eighty. So in the book, I list 390 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.640 three what's called precursor cases, one in February, one in July, 391 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:20.200 one in November of nineteen eighty that kind of led 392 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:28.839 up to this cluster at the relative end of December 393 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:31.920 nineteen eighteen. Now, Michael Stacys Smith had had a good 394 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:35.200 sight in his own in July, and we can come 395 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:37.240 back to that if you want. But with regards to 396 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:40.359 the December events, I said to him after he told 397 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:43.720 me about his July event, are you aware of any 398 00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:48.279 other kind of incidents that were a bit unusual UFO related? 399 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.359 He said, yeah, He said, I know quite a bit 400 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:54.400 about what happened to Bonnie Tamplin and I said, go on, 401 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.039