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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 6: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. In a park
Speaker 6: in Bacop, Lancashire, England, on the night of August eleventh,
Speaker 6: two thousand and seven, twenty one year old Sophie Lancaster
Speaker 6: and boyfriend Robert Maltby were duly attacked my five teenage
Speaker 6: boys aged fourteen to seventeen. They were attacked simply because
Speaker 6: they dressed differently. Sophie had been attacked after trying to
Speaker 6: protect her boyfriend and was pulled from life support thirteen
Speaker 6: days later. Robert survived with numerous serious injuries. The first
Speaker 6: journalist on the scene, Catherine Smight, provides a dramatic perspective
Speaker 6: to the case as a mother and a member of
Speaker 6: the media who became inextricably involved in the story forever
Speaker 6: The book chronicles the attack, the town where it happened,
Speaker 6: the court case, the national and international media interest, and
Speaker 6: the launch of the Sophie Lancaster Foundation. It also uncovers
Speaker 6: some anomalies. The police admitted initially attending the wrong park.
Speaker 6: The Ambulance Service has yet to explain while it took
Speaker 6: fourteen minutes for first paramedics to reach the scene just
Speaker 6: a mile away. The book that we're featuring today is
Speaker 6: The Sophie Rancaster's Story with my special guest journalist and
Speaker 6: author Katherine Smythe. Welcome to the program and thank you
Speaker 6: for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 3: Catherine Smythe, thank you very much for inviting me. Thank
Speaker 3: you very much. Incredible story. Let's get to an introduction.
Speaker 3: We're talking about Bacup, Lancashire, England. So tell us for
Speaker 3: our audience where exactly this is and describe Bacup and
Speaker 3: then we can talk about your background that brought you
Speaker 3: to this case and like I said, inexpectably involved with
Speaker 3: this case forever.
Speaker 2: Bacup is quite a small town. It's on the outskirts
Speaker 2: of Rossendale. Rossendale is made up of five small towns.
Speaker 2: They were all clubbed together to when they decided to
Speaker 2: have an MP for the area, and although the individual
Speaker 2: town at one stage had their own municipal authorities, they
Speaker 2: were all combined to form Rossendale Council and bake Up
Speaker 2: is part of that. That is in turn is part
Speaker 2: of the Lancashire, which is a much larger county. Stretching
Speaker 2: quite a distance from Rossendale is the furthest East and
Speaker 2: then right the way through to Blackpool. So you can
Speaker 2: imagine quite different area and quite different areas, quite different
Speaker 2: sizes of areas. We've got cities, towns, but Rossendale of
Speaker 2: all of the whole of Lancashire is probably one of
Speaker 2: the smallest areas.
Speaker 3: Now, tell us a little bit about your background as
Speaker 3: a journalist and how you came to be involved with
Speaker 3: this case.
Speaker 2: Well, about my first job as a reporter in the
Speaker 2: Rossendale Valley, covering and at that time it's called Ramsbottom.
Speaker 2: That was in nine teen eighty eight. From being a
Speaker 2: reporter in Rossendale, worked for an inning newspaper and after
Speaker 2: having children, went back to working for my ominal newspaper,
Speaker 2: Rossendale Free Press. The time at the time Sophie and
Speaker 2: Rob were attacked. At that time, I was not actually
Speaker 2: on call. But because I lived in the same area
Speaker 2: where this attack took place, somebody contacted me on the
Speaker 2: Sunday evening to tell me that something had happened in
Speaker 2: the park. So as a result, because I'm a journalist
Speaker 2: and obviously I'm nosy, I chose to walk to go
Speaker 2: out of the park that night. I took my young
Speaker 2: son and we went in the car. As far as
Speaker 2: he was concerned, we were just going to play. But
Speaker 2: really I was going to try and see if there
Speaker 2: was anything that I could find. So that's the reason
Speaker 2: why they've said I was the first journalist on the scene,
Speaker 2: because I knew about it before the police had made
Speaker 2: any kind of releases to the media.
Speaker 3: Now, before we get to August eleventh, two thousand and seven,
Speaker 3: in this stubbly stubbily park, let's talk about sort of
Speaker 3: the incidents of this. What kind of places bakeup in
Speaker 3: terms of violence, in terms of gangs, in terms of
Speaker 3: teenagers running amock, what's its incidents, What's what's it really
Speaker 3: like there previous.
Speaker 2: To this, Prior to this, Bakeup always had a little
Speaker 2: bit of a dubious reputation. Don't get me wrong, there
Speaker 2: are some incredibly good people in Bakup, just as there
Speaker 2: are in every town. But unfortunately there always seems to
Speaker 2: have been a prompt to coting trouble, making life difficult
Speaker 2: for bess owners, showing people in the community, and it's
Speaker 2: very sad. That is obviously how a lot of people
Speaker 2: have interpreted the town. Unfortunately, there was also, probably more
Speaker 2: so then than now, a great degree of intolerance regarding
Speaker 2: people of different colors. Black people in the town were
Speaker 2: few and far between. It was seen as a place
Speaker 2: where it was almost like whites only at one stage.
Speaker 2: Things have evolved a little bit that still to this day,
Speaker 2: compared to the other towns in Rossendale, there is a
Speaker 2: very very small percentage of minority ethnic origin people.
Speaker 3: Well, you read in your book that other communities in
Speaker 3: the area are about ninety percent white, which is I
Speaker 3: thought interesting and surprising. But yet Bacup is even more
Speaker 3: so white. Didn't you say ninety eight percent in the book.
Speaker 2: That's any data that I could obtain at the time, Yes,
Speaker 2: it would be slight. It's distillericity of people. Yes, even
Speaker 2: they're obviously in Rottenstall and Haslingden we've got mosques, But
Speaker 2: in Bakeup it's a totally different generic.
Speaker 3: Now, you had just spoken about getting the call from
Speaker 3: your friend that lives in the area, and you went
Speaker 3: as a reporter and as a so tell us more
Speaker 3: about the call and what you did learn as a
Speaker 3: scene of the When.
Speaker 2: You did arrive, the call quite literally just said that
Speaker 2: there's been something going on in the park. My friend
Speaker 2: described to me seeing men in white overalls. Now, I'd
Speaker 2: been a journalist for far too many years not to
Speaker 2: know that that was scenes of crime officers, and that
Speaker 2: meant it was incredibly serious. When I got to the park,
Speaker 2: my initial walk through because obviously I was, as I said,
Speaker 2: being no and decided to go and have a look.
Speaker 2: My initial walk through the park took me straight past
Speaker 2: the skate park, but I noticed nothing. There was no tape,
Speaker 2: There was nothing at that scene to have indicated that
Speaker 2: that was where anything had happened. I proceeded to go
Speaker 2: through the rest of the park. It's an absolutely beautiful
Speaker 2: park Stubbury. You have a series of steps that go
Speaker 2: down towards a beautiful little to fall that runs along
Speaker 2: the bottom. It's called Fairydale. It is a lovely area.
Speaker 2: But there was no indication that anything had gone that
Speaker 2: BIAT that I had been at other stages at other times.
Speaker 2: It was a lot quier than when I'd seen Usually
Speaker 2: there would be quite a few children on the skate park.
Speaker 2: I don't seeing anyone on the skate park that night,
Speaker 2: and as I walked through the rest of the park again,
Speaker 2: the whole air did seem quietly quitted. There was no
Speaker 2: line of any police involvement, no no sign of any
Speaker 2: even police tape that had been written down. There was
Speaker 2: just nothing. So at that stage I didn't know where
Speaker 2: the incident had taken place other than somewhere in the park.
Speaker 3: Now, you were a news editor of the Rosendale Free
Speaker 3: Press at that time, but yet the next morning, August thirteenth,
Speaker 3: you found out information via the BBC. Tell us what
Speaker 3: you heard that morning.
Speaker 2: When I woke up that morning, I always you would
Speaker 2: wake up to the radio, so BBC Radio Lancashire was playing,
Speaker 2: and the first item on the news was that there'd
Speaker 2: been an attack in the park and two people had
Speaker 2: been left seriously injured. At that stage they were only
Speaker 2: describing it as a mob attack. And the information we
Speaker 2: got through was exactly the same. At the office, it was.
Speaker 2: It was a message that had been left on the
Speaker 2: police news Line, which is an accessible number for journalists
Speaker 2: so that they can obtain news about what's going on
Speaker 2: rather than having to keep hassling who super communications. There
Speaker 2: was very lacking in disction than to say the name
Speaker 2: of the park, which obviously I'd conferred what I knew
Speaker 2: from the day before, and the fact that these two
Speaker 2: people at that stage it just said a twenty one
Speaker 2: year old and a twenty year old were in hospital.
Speaker 2: It was only about fifteen minutes after I'd got into
Speaker 2: the office. Often and collig that work for By sheer
Speaker 2: coincidence was Robert's uncle rang me to tell me exactly
Speaker 2: who was involved in this incident, what had happened, and
Speaker 2: obviously sent some photographs as well to the newspaper. When
Speaker 2: we got the pictures through, I immediately recognized Sophie, Which
Speaker 2: is a bit of a scary situation. List you can
Speaker 2: tend to be remote from an awful lot of things
Speaker 2: that go on, even though they're horrific, even though they
Speaker 2: hurt you. You don't know, and you can't associate the
Speaker 2: person with the person because there's somebody whom you don't know.
Speaker 2: But when you see a photograph and you go, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I remember seeing her, I remember seeing bakeup.
Speaker 2: She was walking and when I worked out where I'd
Speaker 2: actually seen her, she was very obviously walking back to
Speaker 2: her house on King Street, and that made it all
Speaker 2: the more shocking because I can remember I had my
Speaker 2: children with me and isn't beautiful for Sophie she was
Speaker 2: quite a vision with beautiful, beautiful, long black clothes, dreadlocked hair.
Speaker 2: It had the green braid tied in it at the time,
Speaker 2: and you really did turn your head stop and say wow.
Speaker 2: So to realize it was that that night tact was
Speaker 2: really quite shocking.
Speaker 3: Now from there, from having access to Robert Maltby's uncle,
Speaker 3: Nigel Lancashire, what other information did you have and that
Speaker 3: other people didn't have In terms of their relationship you
Speaker 3: talk about they were living together. So tell us what
Speaker 3: you did learn from the uncle about in terms of
Speaker 3: their relationship.
Speaker 2: Well, he explained a lot about Sophie and rob about
Speaker 2: the fact that they had adopted a sort of Gothic
Speaker 2: type lifestyle. That was the way the people that they were.
Speaker 2: They were quite independent, quite different, happy and obviously very
Speaker 2: much in love. At that time. Sophie wasn't working, she
Speaker 2: was in between she was working out what she wanted
Speaker 2: to do, and she was looking to go back to college.
Speaker 2: Rob was working at a local firm so that they
Speaker 2: could afford to pay for the flats that they shared together.
Speaker 2: They sounded like a couple who'd really found each other.
Speaker 2: They'd found the right person to be and blocked and
Speaker 2: they had a fantastic relationship, and both Nigel and his
Speaker 2: wife good friends with both Sophie and Rob. It seemed
Speaker 2: such a tragic thing to happen to someone who was
Speaker 2: obviously in such a good place at the.
Speaker 3: Time, not just for the record, not that it matters
Speaker 3: at all, but for people to just sort of wrap
Speaker 3: their head around this. Again. You talk about how beautiful
Speaker 3: Sophie was, and sure the photos clearly demonstrate that in
Speaker 3: the book as well. And then she had these dreadlocks
Speaker 3: again would look great, and then had this ribbon coiled
Speaker 3: through there, and she had some piercings. But tell us
Speaker 3: what Robert Maltby, just for the record, look like as well,
Speaker 3: you know, because this will be important when we talk
Speaker 3: about people being attacked for looking differently. So how much
Speaker 3: differently did you Robbly look?
Speaker 2: Robert again was call he had dark hair that was
Speaker 2: quite I think his hair varied. Sometimes it was dyed red,
Speaker 2: sometimes it was dark. And again his head. His hair
Speaker 2: was quite long in comparison to maybe most people, and
Speaker 2: he had retainers in his ears, which obviously form a
Speaker 2: hole between the ear lobe and the main part of
Speaker 2: the ear. And they both looked quite different. They both
Speaker 2: had obviously they were following a certain goffy style, quite
Speaker 2: different to what you would see within the Bay Area.
Speaker 3: The relationship they had, let's talk about again. I asked
Speaker 3: this question, but it's sort of in my mind. I
Speaker 3: think the audience would ask too, what was the prevalence
Speaker 3: of occurrences of gang activity or major assault in this
Speaker 3: double park.
Speaker 2: Prior to this incident, Stubbley Park had become a bit
Speaker 2: of a teenage haunt on an evening on the rare
Speaker 2: occasion that I've been there. Bear in mind, I'm a
Speaker 2: bit considerably older than the teenagers who would hang out.
Speaker 2: I would see a lot of older kids. There was
Speaker 2: a gang culture in Bakeup. They'd got this bake Up
Speaker 2: Terror Group, which was a bit bizarre, but they would
Speaker 2: slogan the town center with BTG and they would almost
Speaker 2: it seemed like there were sort of fights being picked
Speaker 2: between different areas as well. Although Rossendale is all one
Speaker 2: area regarding local council and MP, it is very split
Speaker 2: and people from Whitworths that actually had on with some
Speaker 2: areas would sort of be pitting against each other. There
Speaker 2: had been at that time a youth project which was
Speaker 2: started within the Pennine Road area which was originally a
Speaker 2: council estate, and that had been to belonging people who
Speaker 2: were living as an offshoot of that youth project where
Speaker 2: they made a video and one of the people involved
Speaker 2: in the Sophie k was on that video. It did
Speaker 2: seem a little bit like it was a video for
Speaker 2: the gang rather than necessarily a video for the project,
Speaker 2: but it was a way the people that it was.
Speaker 2: It was a way of king the missions, not if
Speaker 2: you'd go down and brandishing wooden sticks in what could
Speaker 2: only really describe as a bit of a menacing manner.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very interesting when you talk about the the
Speaker 3: rap video with the woodsticks and the menacing manner, and
Speaker 3: again this is supposed to be a community project video.
Speaker 3: It's very kind of well, to say the least, odd
Speaker 3: talk Let's let's talk a little bit about Sophie's mother, Sylvia,
Speaker 3: and and sort of the relationship that she had in
Speaker 3: her family despite this alternative lifestyle, how accepted was it
Speaker 3: from her family?
Speaker 2: Sylvia accepted Sophie's decisions with ease. She was quite happy
Speaker 2: with her daughter's choices. It was it was entirely up
Speaker 2: to her daughter what she decided to do at six
Speaker 2: years old. That she wasn't beaten and became a Verian.
Speaker 2: So you kind of got an idea that this was
Speaker 2: somebody who knew their own mind from a very young age.
Speaker 2: She then took to having her hair dyed black and
Speaker 2: having wearing long black trench coats, dark coats, and obviously
Speaker 2: this gothic style was already coming out to a young age.
Speaker 2: But for Sylvia, she said, always said that she was
Speaker 2: really happy that her daughter content within herself. I think
Speaker 2: that's something that you find with your children that so
Speaker 2: long as they are and they are happy, no matter
Speaker 2: what they choose to be or how they choose to be,
Speaker 2: that's what matters most of all.
Speaker 3: You know, let's talk about the night in question. What
Speaker 3: time are we talking about? What were Robert and Sophie
Speaker 3: doing and before they got to the park, tell us
Speaker 3: the circumstances surrounding them, what their decisions That evening tell
Speaker 3: us about.
Speaker 2: That, Well, Robert and Sophie have been out for the night.
Speaker 2: They've been out at a friend's house. Nothing unusual about that. Yes,
Speaker 2: a whole consumed a massive amount. Walked from this friend's house,
Speaker 2: which was on the outskirts of Bakeup, towards their own home,
Speaker 2: which was in the right start back center in the
Speaker 2: town center. They started walking for some reason I did.
Speaker 2: This was probably after midnight. For some reason, they decided
Speaker 2: that they were cigarettes. Obviously they must have run out,
Speaker 2: so they went to what would have been the only
Speaker 2: place open at the time, which is like a service
Speaker 2: station attached to a petrol and they went there to
Speaker 2: get the cigarettes. And that's where they met the first
Speaker 2: group of people. They were young youth. We don't know
Speaker 2: specifically how old they were, but they were chatting to
Speaker 2: Sophie and Rob and they were quite fascinated with their
Speaker 2: appearance because they did look different to what would be
Speaker 2: considered the norm, and so obviously they drew quite a
Speaker 2: lot of attention. Sophie and Rob will sharing those cigarettes
Speaker 2: out between these young people, and by all accounts, they
Speaker 2: seemed quite friendly at that time. One person who was
Speaker 2: within that group said something on the grounds of that
Speaker 2: they didn't feel happy or didn't feel confident being around
Speaker 2: Sophie and Rob, that that was because their appearance was
Speaker 2: so different. They were uncertain. I don't know, but they
Speaker 2: didn't feel to be there, a precursor to maybe what
Speaker 2: went on once they then moved on from the petrol
Speaker 2: station to an area near the park where and more
Speaker 2: youth were congregating, and then for some reason which really understood,
Speaker 2: they moved and walked into the park with some of
Speaker 2: those young people. Once they got to the skate park,
Speaker 2: they were being photographed. There was a by all accounts
Speaker 2: to some of the young people in the park were
Speaker 2: photographing Sophie because obviously she looked so much so different
Speaker 2: to them. Also as the gang of five who were
Speaker 2: subsequently charged with this murder and assault. There was a
Speaker 2: number of other young people in that park at the time,
Speaker 2: and they flocked around Sophie and Rob because they found
Speaker 2: fasting interesting. Who wouldn't They looked completely different to the
Speaker 2: other young people. Sophie, especially with all the piercings, which
Speaker 2: would probably have been quite you are definitely unusual to
Speaker 2: the young people that were there. That's when it all changed.
Speaker 2: That's when the assault started.
Speaker 3: Now, how was the assault initiated? I mean, again, you
Speaker 3: just paint this picture of sort of no provocation whatsoever.
Speaker 3: These people are twenty one years old and there's people
Speaker 3: ranging from fourteen maybe to seventeen eighteen years old. But
Speaker 3: we're talking about like one am so yeah and what
Speaker 3: and like you say, maybe some alcohol, maybe maybe somebody
Speaker 3: was smoking marijuana. I don't know if there was any
Speaker 3: evidence of that, but it seems like an innocent situation.
Speaker 3: Doesn't seem to be any major history of any gang swarming,
Speaker 3: of anybody attacking people. So from the information that you have,
Speaker 3: what initiated this assault on Robert Maltby, Well.
Speaker 2: There's two. Somebody said something on the lines of he's
Speaker 2: a Marshall, let's bang in. That expression was definitely used
Speaker 2: leading to the hate crime, leading to the attack because
Speaker 2: they're different. There was also, I believe, because that the
Speaker 2: people that we were talking about who started this attack,
Speaker 2: I believe it's possible that there was a degree of jealousy.
Speaker 2: Sophie and Rob had walked into their territory. This was
Speaker 2: their patch, this skate park at that time of night
Speaker 2: was their area, and suddenly somebody had walked in who
Speaker 2: was more interesting than them. And I know it sounds
Speaker 2: basic to say jealousy, but I believe there was a
Speaker 2: degree of jealousy as well. The actual expressions used were
Speaker 2: the fact that there was a they were mocked street
Speaker 2: named for a goth bang them And so it went on.
Speaker 2: And so the attack started. Initially on Rob. Rob was punched, kicked,
Speaker 2: hits stamped to the ground. Once he was on the ground,
Speaker 2: they then king and head body. It was absolutely horrendous assault.
Speaker 2: Then once Rob was lying on the ground from eyewitness statements,
Speaker 2: Sophie then cradled head in her lap. I'm guessing she
Speaker 2: was maybe shouting at them more telling, you know. And
Speaker 2: while she was on the ground, they then set about
Speaker 2: attacking her. Bear in mind, this is a very petite, tiny,
Speaker 2: tiny young thing, and to have attacked her in the
Speaker 2: way and the manner that they did, there could only
Speaker 2: have been one outcome. While all this was happening, some
Speaker 2: of the young people in the park that didn't scatter,
Speaker 2: that didn't run away, tried the best to try and
Speaker 2: stop this assault happening. They pulled out the attackers and
Speaker 2: in court. The attackers could not explain why they'd had
Speaker 2: handprints at the tops of their shoulders and their arms,
Speaker 2: and the reason that was because people were trying to
Speaker 2: pull them off to stop them doing what they were doing.
Speaker 2: They made emergency for they tried to get help and
Speaker 2: watun only fled. They then tried to help both Sophie
Speaker 2: and rub Sadly, obviously what has happened to Sophie was
Speaker 2: too severe, but they did their very best for those
Speaker 2: people that to be honest, they didn't even know, they
Speaker 2: didn't know who they were. It happened.
Speaker 3: Yes, you write about the considerable risk that these young
Speaker 3: people did, and it's encouraging this story too that they
Speaker 3: did that, because then there's so many stories of the
Speaker 3: exact opposite response in a case like that, like I
Speaker 3: wouldn't want to write on my friends, or I didn't
Speaker 3: know what to do. These people did take considerable action
Speaker 3: and called the emergency services, and as you chronicle in
Speaker 3: your book, it's very heartbreaking that they're actually on the
Speaker 3: line with emergency services that and I'll get you to
Speaker 3: explain this right away. They seem seemingly confused where to
Speaker 3: go and who knows if the ambulance would have, you know,
Speaker 3: getting to the scene quicker would have helped it all.
Speaker 3: But they were actually being attacked still while these brave
Speaker 3: young kids were on the phone with emergency services.
Speaker 2: Well, the first call, the first call is made from
Speaker 2: park Row to the area where the kids had congregated before,
Speaker 2: or they've came into the park that first call. When
Speaker 2: that's made, they've obviously left a scene. They've made the
Speaker 2: call from away. So they mentioned the word because that
Speaker 2: they do so clearly that the picking place in Bakeup Park. Now,
Speaker 2: if you use a GPS system and you're not local,
Speaker 2: you would type in the word Bakeup Park and you
Speaker 2: would get nothing. It doesn't exist. It's a generic name
Speaker 2: that people use here. It's a colloquial name. It's the
Speaker 2: one that everybody uses, but it's not the specific name.
Speaker 2: It's not the proper name. The proper name is Stubbily.
Speaker 2: So then if they well, Bakeup doesn't work, let's type
Speaker 2: in part Road. There's a loads of everything town City
Speaker 2: and there's a lot in Rossendale. So you've got those
Speaker 2: little bits of information going to somebody who isn't local,
Speaker 2: because no control centers are local anymore. To that the
Speaker 2: second phone call is then made from inside the park.
Speaker 2: While that second phone call made by the girl is
Speaker 2: being made, you can actually hear the attack going on
Speaker 2: in the back ground. It can only be the attack
Speaker 2: because you can hear someone basically shouting, get off him.
Speaker 2: You can hear others shouting what you're doing. You can
Speaker 2: feel the atmosphere behind the written word. You can actually
Speaker 2: physically see what's going on. So you have got a
Speaker 2: girl stept out of her wits, fourteen years old, on
Speaker 2: her phone, trying to get help for these two people.
Speaker 2: She doesn't even know. She hasn't got a clue who
Speaker 2: they are, how old they are. All she knows is
Speaker 2: they've been beaten within an inch of their lives. And
Speaker 2: it's wrong. She says on the phone, Oh God, you
Speaker 2: bet I better not get into trouble for this. That
Speaker 2: who he's petrified. So where's the ambulance? Where's the ambulance? Call?
Speaker 2: Fifteen year old boy makes a second phone call in
Speaker 2: the park. You've got the girl on the phone and
Speaker 2: the boy on the phone at the same time. The
Speaker 2: attackers are still in the area. They could have been
Speaker 2: victims three and four very easily. A girl is to
Speaker 2: see what condition rob is. All you can hear, all
Speaker 2: you can read in the background was what are you doing?
Speaker 2: There's only one person that can be directed at. It's
Speaker 2: directed at that girl. What is What is terrifying in
Speaker 2: this is how could so easily have been a much
Speaker 2: worse situation? Horrific as it is? All the time the
Speaker 2: girl and the boy are saying the words, where's the
Speaker 2: ambulance happening? Where are they? What are they doing? Fourteen minutes?
Speaker 2: This phone call lasts fourteen minutes the ambulance is dispatched,
Speaker 2: But the ambulance is dispatched almost as soon as the
Speaker 2: first call is made. So why does it take fourteen
Speaker 2: minutes to drive a mile? I can walk it faster.
Speaker 2: I did. I tried, So I'm wondering. I'm going through
Speaker 2: these notes. Bear in mind it's two o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 2: because I could write it easier then, for some reason,
Speaker 2: when everybody was gone to bed and quiet, I could
Speaker 2: write better. So I'm writing this at two o'clock in
Speaker 2: the morning, and I start to read the copy, and
Speaker 2: I'm going why is this if the panscript the same
Speaker 2: thing again and again and again. Now Waterfoot is another
Speaker 2: town it's about three miles from Bakeup. It's another town
Speaker 2: with another park on Park Road with the skate park,
Speaker 2: so you've got so many similarities there to what the
Speaker 2: original Paul was assault in a park in park that
Speaker 2: the assault was in Bakup Park. Unfortunately, that information given
Speaker 2: correctly to the ambulance personnel. I did try to find
Speaker 2: out off the ambulance if they'd onto the wrong in
Speaker 2: the wrong direction, and I got two replies saying that
Speaker 2: they didn't. I did never get I never ever got
Speaker 2: an explanation as to why it took fourteen minutes to
Speaker 2: go a mile. I spoke to the police who immediately said, yes,
Speaker 2: we went to the wrong park. We went off the
Speaker 2: information we were given from the ambulance service and we
Speaker 2: went to Park Road Waterfoot. I don't think that needs
Speaker 2: any further explanation.
Speaker 3: Right now, emergency people arrive, of course the perpetrators are
Speaker 3: not there, and they take him to the hospital. The police,
Speaker 3: you rite that they don't believe it's that serious or
Speaker 3: they're going to be able to recover and give some
Speaker 3: kind of descriptions of the people. So how do police proceed?
Speaker 3: What does what happens at the hospital in terms of
Speaker 3: the health of Sophie and Robert.
Speaker 2: Well. Sophie and Robert were initially taken to Rochdale's. Rob
Speaker 2: was kept in there, but Sophie was more serious and
Speaker 2: was transferred. Rob ended up being transferred to North Manchester General,
Speaker 2: where a good friend of mine was actually a nurse
Speaker 2: looking after him.
Speaker 5: Rob was.
Speaker 2: Y and disoriated. He was not in a good place.
Speaker 2: He was very confused and mixed up. Didn't understand what
Speaker 2: had gone on. Sophie was in a much much more
Speaker 2: serious situation and she was transferred to Hope Hospital. She
Speaker 2: was on a life support machine. Although initially the police
Speaker 2: thought that they would both recover, she was They were very,
Speaker 2: very seriously injured. She unfortunately was only managed to be
Speaker 2: kept life for thirteen days, and after day eleven it
Speaker 2: was obvious that she, unfortunately was not going to make it.
Speaker 2: I was informed obviously by Nigel that this was what
Speaker 2: was going to happen, and Rob was invited to go
Speaker 2: in and see Sophie for one last time before the
Speaker 2: life support machine was turned off. At that time, we
Speaker 2: didn't know Sylvia at all, we didn't know family members.
Speaker 2: The police, understandably in these situations tend to tell the
Speaker 2: family not to live the press, not to with the press,
Speaker 2: just go through her family as officer issue statements. So
Speaker 2: at this time, apart from our own personal attacked with Nigel,
Speaker 2: we didn't have any link to the family. It must
Speaker 2: have been absolutely horrendous, not just for Sylvia but Adam,
Speaker 2: absolutely just a living How.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an incredible situation. Robert having to go in
Speaker 3: and say so long and again you describe them as
Speaker 3: sort of a childlike and disoriented and clearly you know,
Speaker 3: mentally and physically affected by this attack. And then this
Speaker 3: what I wanted to ask was when we talk about
Speaker 3: the injuries to Robert and Sophie, we did not well, unfortunately,
Speaker 3: we should describe exactly the extent of the injuries. You
Speaker 3: even talk about part of Sophie's scalp being ripped from
Speaker 3: her head. So tell us about the injury that caused
Speaker 3: the death of Sophie and the near death of Robert.
Speaker 2: When they were attacked, they were they were kicked and
Speaker 2: stamped about the face, the head, the body. They once
Speaker 2: described it as they volley kicked her head. That leaves
Speaker 2: a horrendous, a horrendous image in your mind. They said
Speaker 2: that they used like, well, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Speaker 2: The attack was sustained and continuous, and it makes you
Speaker 2: wonder if they even saw Sophie and Rob as people,
Speaker 2: because they attacked and hurt them so badly. They were
Speaker 2: pain marks on Sophie's face quite clearly. You could see
Speaker 2: the star shape of the lace. Her face was very
Speaker 2: bad use the photographs of that were issued by the
Speaker 2: family afterwards. Sophie's hair had been yanked and part was missing.
Speaker 2: It had to be stapled back by the doctors. It
Speaker 2: was absolutely some of the worst, some of the worst
Speaker 2: injuries that I think if I've ever heard. They when
Speaker 2: the ambulance paramedics arrived, both Sophie and Rob were in
Speaker 2: such a bad state and they'd been injured so much
Speaker 2: that they couldn't tell which was male and which was female,
Speaker 2: and the difference between robbed much. I'm so bad injured
Speaker 2: they didn't know which was which.
Speaker 3: So after this attack, obviously we talked about the fourteen
Speaker 3: year old witness and the fifteen year old witness. So
Speaker 3: it doesn't take too long before police hear about who
Speaker 3: the people are that are involved. So who do police speak?
Speaker 3: First find out about information and then who do they
Speaker 3: first approach and what is the end result from that interview?
Speaker 2: I think it was. I think it was quite difficult
Speaker 2: for the police at first because there is this you
Speaker 2: don't split, you don't you don't break the code and
Speaker 2: so as a result, you are asking young people to
Speaker 2: do all of those things and to break the code
Speaker 2: and to tell Now, although they they did have a
Speaker 2: good idea who'd done this pretty early on, the biggest
Speaker 2: problem is that you've also got a situation where you've
Speaker 2: got young people and they find it hard to talk
Speaker 2: to an older police officer. So the detective inspector being
Speaker 2: hold and who was in charge, and what a fantastic copper,
Speaker 2: he was absolutely superb to work with. He employed young,
Speaker 2: newly trained female police officers and young police officers who
Speaker 2: would be able to They were not the same situation
Speaker 2: where you were dealing with a young person who was
Speaker 2: nervous to speak to the police officer. At the end
Speaker 2: of the day, that's what they are, whether they're a
Speaker 2: young police officer or one who's been in service for
Speaker 2: a long time. But that was a really clever initiative
Speaker 2: and that's how they managed to extract the information who
Speaker 2: had done This was all around town. By the neckbye,
Speaker 2: I meant Nick masseling up from the after school club.
Speaker 2: I was being told, we're in the part of that day,
Speaker 2: an awful lot of what had happened, so people everybody
Speaker 2: knew what had gone on, but it was difficult to
Speaker 2: get that information. They did have the names early on,
Speaker 2: and they'd already started making arrests by the Sunday.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about in the book, they talk about
Speaker 3: Joseph Hume and and his interview where he didn't denies
Speaker 3: any involvement, but they don't just speak to him once.
Speaker 3: So tell us about the interviews with Joseph Hume, and again,
Speaker 3: what does what does the police get out of that
Speaker 3: conversation with him? Those interviews?
Speaker 2: Right, I'll have to I'll have to find that in
Speaker 2: detail because I would not want to get it wrong.
Speaker 2: So can you come back to me on that.
Speaker 3: Sure? Certainly in general the found well, pardon me, go ahead.
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Speaker 2: Can you ask your question please?
Speaker 3: Oh? Okay. What I'm saying is in general. The specifics
Speaker 3: of that are in the book. In terms of there's
Speaker 3: multiple interviews. He makes three statements. Joseph, he talks about
Speaker 3: touching Rob's phone, because that's one of the things that's
Speaker 3: part of one of the exhibits. Part of the evidence
Speaker 3: is Robert Maltby's phone. So he explains that he touched it,
Speaker 3: which again we'll explain later thinking ahead, that will explain
Speaker 3: his fingerprints being on that phone potentially. Now his brother
Speaker 3: is Danny Hume, the two brothers involved, and the police
Speaker 3: speak to these guys and also we have a gentleman
Speaker 3: named Herbert, and we have Harris, So Harris Herbert, Danny Hume,
Speaker 3: Joseph Hume and so and Daniel Mallett. So again who
Speaker 3: to police, what have they heard in terms of the
Speaker 3: ring leaders of this incident? It takes a while, as
Speaker 3: you say, because you've got to get through this youth
Speaker 3: culture and their oath of allegiance to each other. So
Speaker 3: tell us what information the police have and how they
Speaker 3: proceed with it.
Speaker 2: At the start, it was quite clear that there were
Speaker 2: certainly Harris and Herbert were definitely ringleaders. Both had a reputation,
Speaker 2: both were known, both were very familiar, and both had
Speaker 2: actually carried out a very similar assault in the park before.
Speaker 2: This is for they'd been given a youth referral order,
Speaker 2: which is is in Layman's turns are ticking off, naughty boy. Okay,
Speaker 2: you're supposed to adhere to the youth referral order, but
Speaker 2: they very rarely go anywhere, so they had got form now.
Speaker 2: Both dooms also had fun which was although they never
Speaker 2: there was another incident in a town in the in
Speaker 2: the village where they lived, where somebody was attacked, but
Speaker 2: they never pressed charges, so the case never got caught. However,
Speaker 2: it brought striking similarities to what happened in the park.
Speaker 2: The older brother, Joseph Hume, was also known. He was
Speaker 2: he was waiting trial for witness intimidation, and that trial
Speaker 2: never went ahead because obviously the murder trial at which
Speaker 2: it was at that stage was more serious, so that
Speaker 2: case against him was never pursued. So he had got
Speaker 2: some you'd heard of, some of the names, you'd heard of,
Speaker 2: some of their form their history. But the one that
Speaker 2: was unusual was Daniel Mallett. He was not somebody that
Speaker 2: people had heard a lot about. He lived in a
Speaker 2: very nice area, and it was came as quite surprised
Speaker 2: that he got for some reason in Bakeup. He had
Speaker 2: been at high school with Herbert, but it's not known
Speaker 2: whether or not they had any association because none of
Speaker 2: none of the five. Obviously the brothers lived in the
Speaker 2: same same house, but the others lived in completely different areas.
Speaker 2: In bake Up, in Stackstead and in the Chauff. You
Speaker 2: put all five together and written they were. As far
Speaker 2: as the police go, it was a difficult job. The
Speaker 2: bony person that immediately went up was Mallet, but again
Speaker 2: Mallett was not a ringleader or went tom. He held
Speaker 2: his hand up and admitted attacking rob once and then
Speaker 2: he said that that was it, This isn't right, I'm
Speaker 2: not you know, and step back. What went on and
Speaker 2: who actually did what? We'll never find out and Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: because because of the nature, because Herbert had pleaded guilty,
Speaker 2: his evidence was never heard. And Harris, when he was
Speaker 2: in court on trial, basically blamed everything on Herbert, so
Speaker 2: that the person that was that could have said what
Speaker 2: had happened Herbert never gave evidence. Whether it had all
Speaker 2: the truth or not, who knows, but the fact.
Speaker 6: That for.
Speaker 2: Trying to look in I want to know, so you
Speaker 2: want to know what happened, what happened that night to
Speaker 2: cause this, and nobody actually told you because the person
Speaker 2: that could have given that crucial bit of information had
Speaker 2: admitted his part in his guilt, so it was just
Speaker 2: immediately out of the picture as far as the court
Speaker 2: case goes.
Speaker 3: It was very interesting. Danny Hume said he blamed the
Speaker 3: attack on Herbert, and of course he minimized his role obviously,
Speaker 3: he said he tried to save Sophie. Daniel Mallett is
Speaker 3: striking in the book. He cried in six interviews Harris
Speaker 3: again just blamed everything on Herbert, and Herbert wouldn't talk
Speaker 3: at the same time, though, which is an astounding part
Speaker 3: of this book. At the same time this is happening,
Speaker 3: there is this movement occurring and a slow and you
Speaker 3: were involved with it as well. The Humberg, Wholm brothers
Speaker 3: and Mallet got bail, while Harris and Herbert were confined.
Speaker 3: And you say their names couldn't be they couldn't be
Speaker 3: named in public because of their age, But everybody knew
Speaker 3: their name. Everybody knew who these people were. And with that,
Speaker 3: and with Sophie and with the community came an upswell
Speaker 3: of support and interest and basically outrage as well. So
Speaker 3: tell us about the movement that seemed to be forming
Speaker 3: at the same time around the murder of Sophie and
Speaker 3: the near murder of Robert Malby.
Speaker 2: There was drilled and it was organized by a youth
Speaker 2: movement that SOFA had been involved with, and they held
Speaker 2: fundraiser and that seemed to spark things. Suddenly people were
Speaker 2: saying that this isn't right, it's wrong, What's what's gone
Speaker 2: on wrong? And these fundraisers just kept happening. There in
Speaker 2: the planned andraiser at in Bakeup. I knew that I'd covered,
Speaker 2: obviously stories about the fact that this fundraiser was going
Speaker 2: to take place, and I'd written stories in the paper,
Speaker 2: and I'd gone out to meet the people involved, and
Speaker 2: I went to the event itself, which is not my thing.
Speaker 2: I don't do football. However I went along because it
Speaker 2: seems to be the right thing to do. The fundraiser
Speaker 2: was incredible that there'd been a song written a Walk
Speaker 2: in the Park by Cosmic Slop, one of the organizers
Speaker 2: of the event, and that song just resonated it. Someday
Speaker 2: everything that happened. That was when we started making these
Speaker 2: ribbons which were sold all over Rossendale and that led
Speaker 2: me to being asked to go an interview. So Sylvia.
Speaker 3: Now with the Again it's unprecedented and you're not supposed
Speaker 3: to get involved, but you do speak with Sylvia, Sophie's mother,
Speaker 3: and again this ground swell of support and interest and
Speaker 3: like you say, these ribbons and then later we get
Speaker 3: other merchandise that is being sold as fundraisers and all
Speaker 3: kinds of other people get involved. Tell us about the
Speaker 3: media interest in this right from the beginning, and again
Speaker 3: we'll talk about how the media interest stayed with this story.
Speaker 3: But tell us about the national and international media interest
Speaker 3: at that time.
Speaker 2: By the expert, I was in Burnley Magistrates. That was
Speaker 2: when the first approach came from a lady who worked
Speaker 2: for a production TV production company. She was interested in
Speaker 2: doing some kind of documentary. Now I've had these before
Speaker 2: and you've kind of like you've got to choose who
Speaker 2: you're going to talk to. Sometimes you've got to decide
Speaker 2: whether you're going to bother because you don't know where
Speaker 2: it's going to go. But to be fair, she did
Speaker 2: seem very genuine, so I took her around bakeup shoulder
Speaker 2: what we were doing shoulder the area. Subsequent to that,
Speaker 2: I was contacted by a guy who was with Radio
Speaker 2: four and again he wanted information on the town where
Speaker 2: things had happened, so pretty similar, I met up with
Speaker 2: him for the bizarre. I met up with him in
Speaker 2: a restaurant that I go to with my husband. Knew
Speaker 2: the restaurant owner incredibly well, walked in and he automatically went, ah,
Speaker 2: you needed this table over here, Catherine, and led me
Speaker 2: to who was sitting having a meal. Blamed to Mario.
Speaker 2: But he was a nice guy. So a background piece
Speaker 2: for the radio. And it's difficult. You have a situation
Speaker 2: where either you help the national media in a situation
Speaker 2: and you hope they get the story right, or you
Speaker 2: leave them to their own devices and know it pretty much.
Speaker 2: They may have an agenda, So we did get involved
Speaker 2: in try and make sure that what this was genuine,
Speaker 2: that it's just the way it worked. And then obviously
Speaker 2: somebody approached me about writing a book. So hence what's happened.
Speaker 3: And Sylvia was obviously not Again most people would advise
Speaker 3: against cooperating with the media. A lot of people would
Speaker 3: just sort of recoil or go into a shell and
Speaker 3: not want to be any type of public figure at all.
Speaker 3: Now that she was not that she attended every concert
Speaker 3: or anything, but there was a support from Sylvia and
Speaker 3: basically the porters for everything. That was again the sort
Speaker 3: of a concerted message of tolerance that and so tell
Speaker 3: us about this sort of a concerted everybody was on
Speaker 3: the same page in terms of being supportive for once
Speaker 3: of something that was going to come. Some of course,
Speaker 3: everybody at a trial is going to hear the recounting
Speaker 3: of the assault itself, which is very, very difficult, and
Speaker 3: they couldn't even handle that. But tell us about sort
Speaker 3: of that solid aarreita that it existed in this movement
Speaker 3: with some kind of common goals.
Speaker 2: As I think, whenever something horrific happens, you have two choices.
Speaker 2: You can metaphorically speaking, sitting the cubounds forever, or you
Speaker 2: try and do something positive in case it was positive
Speaker 2: then at least horrendous reality of what happened sometimes it
Speaker 2: can make it easier to do so when I've carried
Speaker 2: out that first interview, that was the first time she
Speaker 2: mentioned about the s Phi E and the bands and
Speaker 2: Sophie standing for stamp out prejudiced hatred and intolerance everywhere.
Speaker 2: And she told me about starting this charity that evolved
Speaker 2: into what is now the Sophie Lancaster Foundation. But you'd
Speaker 2: see that in those early days that this was sting
Speaker 2: Sylvia a focus, and I think it helped her to
Speaker 2: be able to concentrate on making that happen and fantastic
Speaker 2: success she's made of it now. So you could see
Speaker 2: in those early days that there was some I don't
Speaker 2: hate to say the word good, but something positive was
Speaker 2: going to come out of what happened. And the tremendous
Speaker 2: work that's now being carried out has been supported by
Speaker 2: all and was being supported cross Rosendell and obviously not Roden.
Speaker 2: This spread by getting emotion about things happening in America,
Speaker 2: things happening around the world, fundraisers for the same appeal.
Speaker 2: This little tiny it's called Rossendale that nobody had ever
Speaker 2: heard of for any good reason, and no reason why
Speaker 2: anybody should have heard of Rossendale particularly, but it was
Speaker 2: it was a positive thing that was coming out. It's
Speaker 2: your half way to healing.
Speaker 3: Now part of the healing process, or maybe it's not
Speaker 3: is was the Harris's trial and at that trial you
Speaker 3: talk about it must have been a horrible experience. Again,
Speaker 3: I talked about how the families couldn't handle a lot
Speaker 3: of details and left the courtroom. But it featured a
Speaker 3: fourteen minute tape of the fourteen year old girl calling
Speaker 3: police during the attack. Tell us a little bit more
Speaker 3: about the Harris trial and also again very dramatic. The
Speaker 3: photos were shown at a trial by the pathologist doctor Carter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the photographs went round. Obviously at that stage, the
Speaker 2: pictures went to the jury, and they went to the
Speaker 2: prosecute and the defense, the judge. They didn't at that
Speaker 2: time go to the press. I was in the press
Speaker 2: bench on that day and we made a written request
Speaker 2: from the press that were actually there, asking if those whatures,
Speaker 2: if the family would give permission for those pictures to
Speaker 2: be released. That we hadn't been obvious. They were quite cruel,
Speaker 2: paste quite physically the damage that the had that has
Speaker 2: been inflicted on these two defenseless people, neither Sophie nor Rob.
Speaker 2: But they weren't fighters. They weren't people who picked a
Speaker 2: fight or try to get involved in one and would
Speaker 2: walk away. They were pipsive. So they had basically just
Speaker 2: attacked and kicked to the ground and there was no defense.
Speaker 2: They didn't assault on these these boys, and we knew
Speaker 2: that those pictures be crucial in just showing to people
Speaker 2: how horrendous what had happened really was. We were told
Speaker 2: that the family had given approval that once the case
Speaker 2: is over, we could use them. When they were when
Speaker 2: they were released, it was shocking, and people that the
Speaker 2: reaction was one of the complete disbelief that this could
Speaker 2: have been allowed to happen. My friend who had treated
Speaker 2: Robin the hospital said to me that the photographs told
Speaker 2: a fraction of the true story because she'd seen exactly
Speaker 2: what they both looked like before, and it was an
Speaker 2: awful lot worse than images that were released, and the
Speaker 2: images that were released were horrific.
Speaker 3: There was a lot of evidence blood evidence on Herbert
Speaker 3: for example, and we talked about Herbert and Harris being
Speaker 3: deemed the ringleader's mallet, not very much at all, and
Speaker 3: then four were left to be that pled guilty to
Speaker 3: causing previous bodily harm after in the case of Robert,
Speaker 3: but they did really concentrate on Harris and Herbert. So
Speaker 3: what were the what were the sentences like, and before
Speaker 3: you get to the sentencing and the result of the trial,
Speaker 3: what was the demeanor. We kind of skipped over the
Speaker 3: preliminary where you talk about some of the behavior from
Speaker 3: the defendants. So talk about the defendants that Lincon and
Speaker 3: I mentioned the preliminary with the Home brothers and just
Speaker 3: their overall demeanor at trial.
Speaker 2: Well, there was a few incidents that happened. I was
Speaker 2: in court in December and one of the relatives of
Speaker 2: one of the accused his mobile phone went off. Now,
Speaker 2: everybody's had an incident where your mobile phone's gone off,
Speaker 2: so you go and you can immediately silence it and
Speaker 2: you never speak. But no, this person answered his phone
Speaker 2: while his son was on trial for murder and said, sorry,
Speaker 2: he can't talk now I'm in court. I was absolutely
Speaker 2: horrified that anybody would and he was automatically reprimanded, but
Speaker 2: rather than switch it off, he then left it and
Speaker 2: it rang again. He was then told that if it
Speaker 2: rings the third time, you're out of court. That their attitude,
Speaker 2: the parents' attitude towards what had happened, seemed very matter
Speaker 2: of fact. At one incident, one of the parents was
Speaker 2: laughing with their child, waiting to go and speak to
Speaker 2: the police officers on the charge of murder. Another incident,
Speaker 2: a false alibi was given and the officer had to say, change.
Speaker 3: Do you.
Speaker 2: In course of justice? I cannot believe that anyone would
Speaker 2: take something so serious so lightly. Words fail me on that.
Speaker 2: So in court is that attitude of the parents? What
Speaker 2: is the attitude of the children? At sentencing? Herbert emotions
Speaker 2: that out judge They were total stony faced, didn't seem
Speaker 2: Bob Hume likewise, and Danny Hume didn't seem bothered. The
Speaker 2: only person that really really deemed worried and scared with
Speaker 2: Danny Mallett, and he was biting his nails and looked
Speaker 2: to all intents and purposes like a little child.
Speaker 3: What was the reaction in the courtroom, What was the
Speaker 3: mood like in the courtroom? What was a dynamic bike.
Speaker 2: When it came to sentencing or at the end of
Speaker 2: the trial, end of the trial. At the end of
Speaker 2: the trial, it was sheer relief when the jury came
Speaker 2: back and said guilty. You know, in your heart of hearts,
Speaker 2: how can you possibly not say guilty, But you don't
Speaker 2: know that they're going to and there is always that
Speaker 2: element of doubt, and there was there was absolute relief.
Speaker 2: There was a you could hear the relief as soon
Speaker 2: as they said guilty. Thank goodness.
Speaker 3: Now, what were the sentences like we talk about, you know,
Speaker 3: truth and sentencing. Did the judge imposed, did the jury recommend?
Speaker 3: Tell us how that works? And what kind of sentences
Speaker 3: did they get for Herbert and Harris.
Speaker 2: Herbert was given him eighteen years. Herbert had said I
Speaker 2: didn't do anything, and Herbert had been proved wrong, he
Speaker 2: had been one of the ringleaders. That was a lot
Speaker 2: for sentencing anybody, indeed adult for that same crime. Bear
Speaker 2: in mind fifteen he was only fifteen at the time
Speaker 2: of the incident. Herbert, because obviously he'd pleaded guilty when
Speaker 2: he ran out of defenses, he was given initially sixty years.
Speaker 2: I think it was sixteen years, three months and that
Speaker 2: was reduced slightly on appeal. Then you had the three
Speaker 2: who were only convicted of the attack on rob. The
Speaker 2: Hume brothers both got five years ten months, and they'd
Speaker 2: got an early plea. Danny it expressed his intention to
Speaker 2: play early. Danny Mallett got four years four months. All
Speaker 2: three are now have now been released.
Speaker 3: It it is an indication of a very successful prosecution
Speaker 3: in terms of you explain as well that Herbert got
Speaker 3: sixteen and that these are indefinite, that it could be
Speaker 3: sixteen to life, couldn't It could be eighteen years still life.
Speaker 3: It's not automatic that they're going to get out.
Speaker 2: They are minimum sentences.
Speaker 3: Right, and also a very successful prosecution when you can
Speaker 3: take a minor and get them raised up to adult
Speaker 3: court and then give them in adult court a very
Speaker 3: serious sentence as well. So it was an indicative indicative
Speaker 3: of the of the prosecution. And especially when you see
Speaker 3: what you wrote about the judge. Tell us what the
Speaker 3: judge said, which again i'd never it's unusual.
Speaker 2: He issued a ten sentencing, whatever, a teen page sentencing.
Speaker 2: From a from a journalist's point of view, it was
Speaker 2: absolute dynamic. He described the offenders as feril acting like animals,
Speaker 2: but that's not fair because animals obviously are much better
Speaker 2: behaved than that. He did it as a hate crime,
Speaker 2: which was the one thing that the family had been
Speaker 2: hoping was going to be said, and that's why the
Speaker 2: sentences were so severe, because he had viewed it as
Speaker 2: a hate crime. This was this was the thing that
Speaker 2: they'd been wanting to hear. He also he went on
Speaker 2: to he went into meticulous detail to justify why he
Speaker 2: had actually decided to give them such severe sentences, and
Speaker 2: he felt embraces, boxed off everything. It was superb. From
Speaker 2: a journalist's point of view, it was incredible because it
Speaker 2: gave us there was so much to write write about.
Speaker 2: And he also took time to praise those young people
Speaker 2: who made those calls, so all of the uncivilian doing
Speaker 2: the job bringing to trial.
Speaker 3: What I thought was profound was the judge said, you know,
Speaker 3: this talk of remorse from the defendants and the end
Speaker 3: here is hollow. And you know, I couldn't believe I
Speaker 3: heard that, because that's the way I think. If you
Speaker 3: were remorseful, you wouldn't have laughed at the preliminary you
Speaker 3: wouldn't have conducted yourself differently. Number one, you wouldn't attack
Speaker 3: somebody like a wild animal, worse than a wild animal.
Speaker 3: And now, and so I was amazed with that.
Speaker 2: He saw through very very clearly that what they were
Speaker 2: saying was not the truth. He summed it up amazingly,
Speaker 2: and he, you know, he did what the family wanted.
Speaker 2: He gave them the Infamo, the sentencing they wanted. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: whether or not those other three should have been tried
Speaker 2: for murder, we'll never know.
Speaker 3: Yes, in America it might have been a lot different
Speaker 3: than in the UK as well in terms of their culpability.
Speaker 3: They got very light sentences. In America, I don't think
Speaker 3: they would have beared that well, not not.
Speaker 2: When you look your way up the injuries that were
Speaker 2: on Rob, that he was, you know, severely severely beaten.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, in America, I believe, and not I'm
Speaker 3: not a legal expert in all American states, but I
Speaker 3: would believe that I would put money on that all
Speaker 3: five of these people would have been convicted for their partners.
Speaker 2: They did originally want to go for a joint enterprise
Speaker 2: prosecution and the original papers that was what they were
Speaker 2: going to pursue. It was only after they got Harris,
Speaker 2: after Herbert sided plead guilty because that took out one
Speaker 2: key player to have given evidence, and you left with
Speaker 2: just the evidence of the young people, which I don't
Speaker 2: think they're viewed strongly enough to be able to get
Speaker 2: a conviction on them. The other three.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think they would have been correct with
Speaker 3: that according to your book too, that there would have
Speaker 3: been too Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, especially as now it's been on a higher court
Speaker 2: it started to overturn some of the enterprise verdicts. They're
Speaker 2: all being reviewed now. If the situation had happened that
Speaker 2: they'd been convicted of joint enterprise and after you know,
Speaker 2: so many years now we're nine years after the attack,
Speaker 2: suddenly they'd all been back in court appealing and they'd
Speaker 2: in effect not got off with it, but the sentence
Speaker 2: has been lessened. That would have been even harder for
Speaker 2: the family to face.
Speaker 3: I think, Yes, that's a great point, because that would
Speaker 3: have been just horrible to go through it again, regardless
Speaker 3: of any reassurances or assurances that it would get the
Speaker 3: same verdict. That would just be horrible to go once
Speaker 3: was enough, you know, Yeah, I wouldn't wishing on my
Speaker 3: worst enemy. Now with this again again, the bright spot
Speaker 3: of this book. It's if there is any and there
Speaker 3: is an incredible sort of brightness to this book. Sylvia
Speaker 3: met with the Prime Minister Gordon Brown, and the Sophie
Speaker 3: Lancaster Foundation is an umbrella organization. You say encompasses media, training, education,
Speaker 3: work with us, raising awareness, and you say Sophie groups
Speaker 3: sprang up throughout the world and people have contacted Sylvia.
Speaker 3: So tell us more about the Gothics Sophie logo and
Speaker 3: just tell us a little bit more about what has
Speaker 3: happened with this organization after this trial and after meeting
Speaker 3: with Gordon Brown, where is the Sophie Ncaster Foundation today?
Speaker 2: The work that's been done in those nine years is
Speaker 2: quite amazing, quite incredible. Sylvia is often called upon to
Speaker 2: comment as almost like it when there's incidents, because she's
Speaker 2: obviously got such intense personal experience of this. But also
Speaker 2: the foundation is starting to build bridges. Its started. It's
Speaker 2: working in schools, often primary schools, but also high schools
Speaker 2: and colleges, and it's it's tackling that prejudice head on,
Speaker 2: looking at the way children perceive other children, don't's perceive
Speaker 2: other adults, and trying to break down those barriers. Because
Speaker 2: somebody looks different doesn't mean that they should be treated differently,
Speaker 2: not just that it's taking in rows their view. Their
Speaker 2: reputting of hate crime crime has changed. You are now
Speaker 2: entitled to say I am a I goth I follow
Speaker 2: I am and I shouldn't be attacked just because I
Speaker 2: am No. Sooner had this been introduced in Manchester than
Speaker 2: someone was arrested very soon after because of the person
Speaker 2: who said they were Gothic. So they are making a
Speaker 2: big difference Coton because that I think gives both Sylvia
Speaker 2: the knowledge that some something positive has come out of it.
Speaker 2: But it also it gives that sense of worth that
Speaker 2: Sophie's happened, but look what has come out of it.
Speaker 2: It's very sad that a lot of children in primary
Speaker 2: schools locally don't seem to have heard about what happened
Speaker 2: to Sophie. And I've been in doing anti bullying sessions
Speaker 2: and often I will use what happened to Sophie to
Speaker 2: challenge the children to think how they would react to
Speaker 2: somebody who looked differently, to challenge them to think how
Speaker 2: they perceived about what about them is different to maybe
Speaker 2: somebody else in the class, and then to think how
Speaker 2: sometimes people pick on that and why it's wrong. They
Speaker 2: were very successful the ones that I did, just stopping
Speaker 2: and making people think before they go to high school
Speaker 2: and somebody a name without potential consequences. The Sophie Foundation
Speaker 2: has done so much good work. That's Sophie logo that
Speaker 2: you were talking about. I actually face painted that on
Speaker 2: somebody's head once and it was an amazing thing to do.
Speaker 2: I took a photograph of it to Sylvia and she said,
Speaker 2: I thought she thought somebody had had it tattooed on
Speaker 2: his forehead. That it works only face, so it wasn't
Speaker 2: that long liing. But there's a lot of people done that.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people and had Sophie that Sophie
Speaker 2: Gothic logo tattooed on their body. There's so many people
Speaker 2: who have contacted me from all over who've read the
Speaker 2: book and want to just talk about because they've got
Speaker 2: their own experience. There's a lady liaised with regularly and Portugal.
Speaker 2: She suffers a lot of prejudice. There's a goth out
Speaker 2: in Canada. Richard Ike speak to him on a regular
Speaker 2: basis and he suffers. He's I'm trying to remember now
Speaker 2: sixty I think its sixty two, and he suffers prejudiced
Speaker 2: because of who he is. Still there, sadly, it's still
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 3: In January two thousand and nine, he wrote in a
Speaker 3: book that the Sophie Lancaster Foundation entered the political arena
Speaker 3: with an attempt at a widening of hate crime legislation.
Speaker 3: Very interesting as well.
Speaker 2: They did try to get it, had an early day motion,
Speaker 2: but it didn't actually progress much obviously, in so the
Speaker 2: target now is more the police to change the way
Speaker 2: hate crimes reported.
Speaker 3: Excellent. Also, you do mention just for people that may
Speaker 3: look into it will be motivated to look into this
Speaker 3: a little bit more. There was a documentary Killer Kids,
Speaker 3: the Sophie Lancaster Documentary, and another book called The Black
Speaker 3: Roses The Killing of Sophie Lancaster. It's twenty nine pages
Speaker 3: of poetry. And you tell us about both those projects
Speaker 3: and why you felt that they were, you know, a
Speaker 3: reasonable addition to this book Killer.
Speaker 2: Kids, that I wasn't so keen on. I wasn't happy
Speaker 2: with the way it interpreted the story. There's a lot
Speaker 2: more to this story than just two people being attacked.
Speaker 2: There's a lot a lot more. And I also but
Speaker 2: Black Rose I think is the most incredible piece of
Speaker 2: poetry I've ever ever read in my life. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: book is so short and yet with every single rhyme,
Speaker 2: with every phrase, with every cleverly constructed sentence, it portrays
Speaker 2: an image that is lasting. Made into a drama documentary
Speaker 2: with the actress walking around us, Sophie reciting the take
Speaker 2: clear just recounting her story, and it was first a
Speaker 2: radio play and then made into a drama documentary on TV.
Speaker 2: And also it was a stage production, and I have
Speaker 2: to say it was one of the most powerful things
Speaker 2: I think I've ever seen.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's Black Roses. That's incredible. The other thing, too,
Speaker 3: is what I thought was which was fitting for Sophie
Speaker 3: was the of course, the British band The Damned played
Speaker 3: on what would have been Sophie's twenty second birthday and
Speaker 3: we called Stampo prejudiced, hatred and intolerance everywhere. That was
Speaker 3: a big gig and twenty two black Helium balloons were
Speaker 3: released at that concert.
Speaker 1: I was there.
Speaker 2: It was quite amazing to see. And I must admit
Speaker 2: Captain Sensible, I've always liked Captain Sensible when he got
Speaker 2: up to play on stage and there was the Sophie band.
Speaker 2: I managed to get a photograph of him with the
Speaker 2: Sophie band on his wrist, and he was absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 2: He just stole the show. And when they based the
Speaker 2: balloons outside, it was really quite moving.
Speaker 3: Yes, you really did capture that too. That was amazing. Basically,
Speaker 3: I guess I'm gonna ask this last question before I
Speaker 3: let you go, and I guess it's an obvious question,
Speaker 3: but how affected were you by doing this story? I mean,
Speaker 3: of all the things that you've done, all the cases
Speaker 3: that you've covered, tell us what the effect of this
Speaker 3: case was for you as a journalist and a person.
Speaker 2: Well a couple of years. I'm going to have been
Speaker 2: a journalist for thirty years, which sounds it's gay and
Speaker 2: a time mark covered a pot of things I've been
Speaker 2: effect I've walked away from, or nearly all, but for
Speaker 2: some got involved with this, and I think my only
Speaker 2: reason for that is that because it was very close
Speaker 2: to home. I've got children. We go to that park,
Speaker 2: that's somewhere I know very well. Albeit I only saw
Speaker 2: her once, but I saw Sophie, and I remember seeing Sophie,
Speaker 2: and it should never have happened. It was wrong, completely
Speaker 2: and utterly wrong. And I suppose that's why I got involved,
Speaker 2: because I was angry. As a journalist, you can you
Speaker 2: are supposed to just report what goes on and not
Speaker 2: get involved. And I did get ticked off at times.
Speaker 2: I've been had people say, oh, you didn't do all that. Well,
Speaker 2: I only reported what really went on, and I only
Speaker 2: did things because I wanted to try and make a
Speaker 2: bit of a difference. And if we kick started some
Speaker 2: campaign and it's and that's what mattered, It matters for
Speaker 2: all the people making those ribbons that they were doing something.
Speaker 2: People wanted to channel their energies into doing something because
Speaker 2: they were very, very angry, and if I was a
Speaker 2: means to that end good As a reporter, Yeah, my
Speaker 2: editor was right. I am supposed to just write what happens,
Speaker 2: not get involved. But then I'm a person too. I
Speaker 2: couldn't just stand back and do it. And if that
Speaker 2: was wrong, then I'm wrong.
Speaker 3: No, you were absolutely right in becoming so involved, and
Speaker 3: with it you brought the reporting again. You reported so
Speaker 3: many articles. That's how Sylvia was convinced that you were
Speaker 3: the right person to speak to. And it wasn't like
Speaker 3: she was going to speak to everybody, so the one
Speaker 3: person that she was going to speak to, and you
Speaker 3: captured this story eloquently and incredibly. I don't want to
Speaker 3: thank you very much for coming on and talking about
Speaker 3: Sophie Lancaster story. For those people that might want to
Speaker 3: look at your other work or contact you, or do
Speaker 3: you do facebook websites, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 3: that if any.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have there's a Facebook group for anybody who's
Speaker 2: read the book who wants to discuss anything or any aspect.
Speaker 2: That's just quite literally Sophie Lancaster book. Obviously the books
Speaker 2: for sale through RJ. Parker Publishing on Amazon. I've been
Speaker 2: quite staggered at how it's gone. It was published, he
Speaker 2: just happened to have reviewed it on Amazon. And his
Speaker 2: daughter has a godfriend who gets a bit of a
Speaker 2: hard time, and what happened was he gave her a
Speaker 2: copy of my book, she read it, asked how it
Speaker 2: was doing. He checked up and found it wasn't selling
Speaker 2: and approached me with each other through Facebook. Once he
Speaker 2: reviewed my book and he offered to republish it. I'm
Speaker 2: incredibly grabul because he's given Sophie's story a much wider audience,
Speaker 2: which is what matters. At the end of the day.
Speaker 2: What happened shouldn't ever be forgotten, but what good came
Speaker 2: out of it also shouldn't ever be forgotten, because if
Speaker 2: a story is just doom and gloom, then it's not
Speaker 2: a story. What's happened as a result is positive. It's
Speaker 2: making a difference, and it's important that people know that.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I have to say that any I had no
Speaker 3: idea of this story, so thanks to this new publishing,
Speaker 3: I'm aware of this story so again. And nobody can
Speaker 3: be up on all of the stories because there's so
Speaker 3: many that are competing, but a story like this really
Speaker 3: cuts through all of the other ordinary stories to be
Speaker 3: one of the more incredible cases and stories. And again,
Speaker 3: a little bit of a happy ending, if there can
Speaker 3: be such a thing after a disaster like this. But
Speaker 3: I want to thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 3: Catherine Smith and talking about the Sophie Lancaster story. Thank
Speaker 3: you very much, and you have a great day.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, goodbye, goodbye.