WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.879 Oh hey, it's the coworker that you didn't recognize without 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:06.240 his beard, Ali Ward. And if you click this for fun, 3 00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:07.839 let's have at it. 4 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:08.359 Okay. 5 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:12.199 This guest hugely popular twenty twenty two Ted Talk. 6 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:15.160 It racked up millions and millions and millions of views. 7 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:17.719 It's titled why Having Fun is the Secret to a 8 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:21.440 Healthier life? Scientifically, what is fun? Who has it? 9 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:22.199 How? 10 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:25.640 And As a science journalist, she has researched topics like 11 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:30.120 the culture of wellness, what's fact, what's flim flam? All 12 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:34.200 about screen life balance, and wrote the book The Power 13 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:36.960 of Fun, How to Feel Alive Again. So when I 14 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:40.119 put out the call for questions at patreon dot com sashologies, 15 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:43.960 one patron, Tabitha Delangelo, upon hearing that the topic was fun, 16 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:46.759 not knowing who we were interviewing, offered, if you have 17 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:49.280 not yet read it, check out The Power of Fun 18 00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:53.240 by Catherine Price. Uh Tabitha, we were one step ahead 19 00:00:53.280 --> 00:00:55.280 of you. Also, thank you to all the patrons who 20 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:57.719 support the show. We literally could not do it without you. 21 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:01.399 And thanks to everyone tagging their photos in ologies merch 22 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:03.359 so we can see where you've been this summer and 23 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:06.799 repost them. Merch is at ologiesmerch dot Com also thinks 24 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:09.840 to everyone who leaves reviews, because yes, I read every single, 25 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:12.120 single one of them. And this week's select is from 26 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:15.560 Walker Barrow, who wrote, pick any episode and you will 27 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:18.359 be instantly hooked. So if this is your first one, 28 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:20.799 I hope it hooks you. Or maybe you're already hooked 29 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:24.319 from the one on worms. Okay, let's get to theology. So, 30 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.200 as you're about to learn, there's very little on this 31 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:30.719 as an independent discipline. So this is a rare episode 32 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.599 where I have to task myself with fabricating an ology 33 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:35.959 for it, which we never do. 34 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:37.079 We do not like to do. 35 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:41.200 So I started designing a word based on Latin and 36 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.159 Greek origins, and I came up with godiology, from the 37 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.760 Latin for fun or the harder to say but more 38 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:52.040 impressively spelled dia skeatis tecology, and a search for those 39 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:57.439 words came up with nothing, no previous uses, And then. 40 00:01:59.000 --> 00:01:59.359 I did it. 41 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.480 I googled funology, being like, no one's used that, right, 42 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:08.800 wouldn't you know it? Hundreds of previous uses of that listeners, friends, children. 43 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:11.599 I don't want this to be funology. I don't want 44 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:13.360 that to be the title, and neither do you. I 45 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.800 know it, but I cannot argue with precedent, So with 46 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:20.080 a cringing heart, I'm sorry, it's got to be funology. 47 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.879 Don't blame me because there aren't any real funologists out there, 48 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.199 as you'll hear anyway we're going with it. But yes, 49 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:30.560 this writer spent again years digging into the research and 50 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:34.879 is an expert on what scientifically fun actually is. So 51 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:37.759 limber up, shake off your troubles, fill your ears with 52 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:41.400 info about adult versus childhood fun? What even is fun? 53 00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:45.199 By definition? Do introverts have special alone fun? What's the 54 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:48.680 difference between happiness and laughter and fun? What is fun 55 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:52.319 due to your actual meat body? Do animals have fun? 56 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:55.960 Do substances mean more fun? How can you have more fun? 57 00:02:56.199 --> 00:02:58.840 How to have it when the world is crumbling in 58 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.080 cinders all around you? And why it's important that you 59 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:06.599 do with Award winning journalist and speaker and author literally 60 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:10.879 wrote the book on fun and yes, funologist Catherine Price. 61 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:31.719 I am Catherine Price, and. 62 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:36.759 She okay fun expert? I mean pretty much you wrote 63 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:41.240 a book about this. How often do people in casual 64 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:45.520 social situations like your friends? How much are you pressured 65 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:49.400 to bring the party or be uplifting in situations. 66 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:50.159 Does that happen to you? 67 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:53.879 I don't know how often I'm pressured to be the 68 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:56.800 fun person per se, although when I go to conferences 69 00:03:56.840 --> 00:03:59.639 and stuff, I definitely have had people refer to me 70 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.360 as the fun lady, and that feels like it comes 71 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:03.639 with a bit of an expectation. 72 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:08.479 Well, how did you steer your job toward this? 73 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:11.240 Because we get paid to do jobs because typically they 74 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.199 are not fun, although hopefully people can get into a 75 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:18.839 field where they are somewhat inspired by it or it 76 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:21.319 is fun. But I mean, this is a question that 77 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:23.680 you must get asked at every single conference and dinner party, 78 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:23.839 you know. 79 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:26.519 I actually don't get asked that question too often. I 80 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.879 basically never had a field other than writing that I 81 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:34.040 was interested in, and I also have always been consumed 82 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:36.879 by an awareness of my own mortality, and so I 83 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:39.839 think I've had a personal I don't know, compulsion to 84 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:41.879 want to feel like I'm living as fully as I 85 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:45.720 possibly can. And I have a hard time taking orders 86 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:48.439 from anybody who's also that. So I had a professor 87 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.759 in college who had this philosophy of what he called 88 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:55.199 creative drift, and the basic idea was that you should 89 00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:56.959 do whatever you're doing in the moment as well as 90 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:00.160 you possibly can, and then have faith that that is 91 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.560 going to open up opportunities for you that you couldn't 92 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.160 possibly predict, and that that's going to lead to a 93 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:08.160 more interesting life than if you try to achieve your 94 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.199 goals head on. Like his example, I think was that 95 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:12.879 he wanted to be in the National Park Service somehow, 96 00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:16.120 and he could have become an intern and then worked 97 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:17.639 his way up the ranks, but instead he took the 98 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.279 secutest route and eventually was invited to be a pretty 99 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.399 high up member of the Parks Service that he never 100 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.319 would have been offered had he taken the direct route. 101 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:28.720 So anyway, that's kind of how I've tried to lead 102 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:30.879 my life. I always knew I was interested in writing. 103 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:35.000 I pursued freelance journalism after college, which is not a 104 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.839 great career idea. It wasn't then and it certainly is 105 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:38.480 not now. 106 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:39.480 Been there. 107 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.560 Yeah, So my first major book was about the history 108 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:44.959 of vitamins and nutrition, and that was in part because 109 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:48.399 I have Type one diabetes and in part because Michael Polland, 110 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.160 the Food Writer, was my journalism school mentor, and also 111 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:53.319 in part because my husband had a dream one night 112 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:57.360 in which for some reason he was thinking what's a vitamin? 113 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.079 And asked me what's a vitamin the next day and 114 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:01.360 I said I don't really know, and he said, you 115 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:03.839 should write a book about it, and so off I went. 116 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:07.079 But then, more relevantly, how I got to this project 117 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:09.759 is that we had our daughter in twenty fifteen, and 118 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:11.759 a certain point I realized that I was spending a 119 00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:14.040 lot of time looking at my phone when I was 120 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:16.079 with her, and she was looking at me as I 121 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:17.959 was looking at my phone, and I really did not 122 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:20.040 like that. I have a background in mindfulness, and again, 123 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.439 I try to live a meaningful and joyful and present life, 124 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:26.079 and so that led me to write this book, How 125 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:27.920 to Break Up with Your Phone. And then I had 126 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.439 this realization that if you take back the time that 127 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.040 we spend on our phones, you end up with a 128 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:34.959 lot of free time, and if you're like me, that 129 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:38.560 can lead to a minor existential crisis where you suddenly 130 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:40.199 don't know what you want to do with yourself and 131 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.759 feel just panicked. But long story short, that led me 132 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:48.040 to a new journey of exploration that led to me 133 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:52.160 becoming very curious about the feeling of fun, and so 134 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:53.879 that's how I got to this point. I really have 135 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:56.920 tried to follow my interests, and yeah, there have been 136 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.000 ups and downs, but right now I'm working on fun. 137 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:01.959 I'm working on writing about how we can feel a 138 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:02.759 live more generally. 139 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.120 And Catherine says that being a parent has also shifted 140 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.279 her focus to enjoying life more and being an example 141 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:13.279 of more mentally healthy routines, especially after her twenty eighteen 142 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.360 book about scrolling habits came out and her daughter nine 143 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:20.000 has been listening as children do. 144 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.240 I mean, she started giving copies of How to Break 145 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.000 Up with Your Phone to her babysitters, which is way 146 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.920 more confrontational than I am, but I'm like, yeah, we 147 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.240 really do try to model the idea that it's really 148 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.680 important to have fun and be present with each other 149 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:35.199 and be playful and connected. 150 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:40.560 When you started researching fun, how did you start to 151 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.920 crack into that? How many different types of experts like 152 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.959 multidisciplinary did you have to talk to, because I imagine 153 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.800 there are so many different aspects of play and fun 154 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:56.120 and relaxation and distraction. How did you start to crack 155 00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:56.480 into that? 156 00:07:57.079 --> 00:07:58.800 Well, she'll probably give me the backstory of like how 157 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:01.160 the phone led to fun and so I had a 158 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:04.360 mini existential crisis when I started spending less time on 159 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:06.800 my phone, but I hadn't yet identified what I wanted 160 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:09.959 to spend time on. And in one of these mini crises, 161 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:12.560 critical moments, whatever, I was in the middle of a crisis, 162 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:14.519 I asked myself this question I'd ask people when I 163 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:16.160 was writing how to break up with your phone, which was, 164 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.439 what's something you say you want to do but you 165 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:21.360 supposedly don't have time for. And the logic there was 166 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.319 that we do have more time than we realized, we're 167 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:26.480 just spending a lot of it mindlessly scrolling. And so 168 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:28.199 my answer to that question was I wanted to learn 169 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.360 how to play guitar because I played piano since I 170 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.519 was a kid, and I love music and I have 171 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:35.360 a guitar, but I didn't really know how to play it. 172 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:38.200 So I ended up signing up for this adult music 173 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:41.120 class at what was actually a children's music studio, but 174 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.360 it was like byob It met on Wednesday nights. It 175 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:45.320 was this group of other parents who were there to 176 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:49.039 just play together, like I'm like, both literally and metaphorically, 177 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:51.559 because we weren't going to perform. This was not like 178 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.360 going to become a rock stars. And I started just 179 00:08:55.399 --> 00:08:57.600 really looking forward to Wednesday nights in a way that 180 00:08:57.799 --> 00:09:00.600 felt a little bit foreign, especially because at that point 181 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:02.559 I was a new parent and I think that, you know, 182 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:04.919 i'd been so engrossed in like early parenting. There was 183 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.120 just this feeling of freedom and euphoria that I was 184 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:09.399 having in this class. It felt very foreign at that time, 185 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:12.559 and I started getting curious about what that feeling was. 186 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.320 And it took me an embarrassingly long time to put 187 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.360 a word to it, and eventually I was like, Oh, 188 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:21.360 I'm having fun. I'm having fun. This feels really good. 189 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.240 I want more of this. And then that's when the 190 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:25.080 science journals really kicked in. I was like, well, what 191 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:27.759 is fun? What is this? And then I got very 192 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:30.279 curious about like what is this doing to me? It 193 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.120 feels so good emotionally, is it doing anything physically? What 194 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:36.120 do we know? What's the research about fun? And that's 195 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:38.200 when I think it got really interesting because when I 196 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:41.440 tried to look into a definition of fun, what I 197 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.679 found was totally inadequate in terms of how well it 198 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.919 matched what I was experiencing. The dictionary definition basically said 199 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:51.639 it was enjoyment or amusement or lighthearted pleasure, which is true, 200 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:53.960 but this was lighting me up for the entire week, 201 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:56.720 and it was bringing out this feeling of joy that 202 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.320 was just so nourishing. It was not just kind of 203 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:00.240 simple pleasure. 204 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:02.000 Sounds so nice. 205 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:04.559 And then I looked into the research. So I started 206 00:10:04.600 --> 00:10:07.360 to look into PubMed, you know, the biomedical database, and 207 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:10.120 just seeing what was there, like looking in textbooks and stuff, 208 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.039 and there was basically nothing like when I looked in 209 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.919 PubMed the first time. One of the absolute top hits 210 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.080 was this article that was called Putting the Fun in 211 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:23.399 Fungui and it was about toenail fungus. And that was 212 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:24.679 kind of when I knew I needed to write a 213 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:26.840 book about it, because I was like, Okay, that's hilarious. 214 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.720 Definitely not the type of fun I'm talking about. And seriously, 215 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.840 if that's the top hit on research on fun, like 216 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.840 that's crazy because this is a word we use all 217 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.200 the time. So I started to look into some of 218 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.360 what the other non fungal papers were. Most of them 219 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.120 really didn't apply, but there were a couple that said 220 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:47.960 things like fun is not a term in any index 221 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:50.799 of any psychology textbook of which we're aware. That struck 222 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:51.559 me as really weird. 223 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:54.639 Catherine was shocked to see that there were experts in 224 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:57.639 play but not in fun. She couldn't even find a 225 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:01.039 scientific definition of fun, and so she embarked on some 226 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:04.440 of her own research, speaking to experts about the elements 227 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.519 of fun, which we're going to learn in a second, 228 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:09.759 and also doing some sociological data gathering. 229 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:12.000 So that's how I kind of got into it. But 230 00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:15.759 I was genuinely shocked that there was so little out 231 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:18.399 there about fun, considering we'll use that word all the time. 232 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.320 We all think we know what fun is, but what 233 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:20.960 is fun? 234 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:28.799 And how is fun different from play and different from joy? 235 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.240 So basically like what I did for the research for this, 236 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:33.440 and I should note this was in by this point. 237 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:36.159 It was like April of twenty twenty when I signed 238 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:38.799 the book contract, so this was like full on lockdown. 239 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.519 And folks, people are still getting COVID, so be careful 240 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:44.080 out there. But during the lockdown, a lot of time 241 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:46.519 at home to work on a sociology mission. 242 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:49.039 So it was a very interesting period of time to 243 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:51.360 be thinking about fun and to be asking other people 244 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:54.799 to think about fun. But anyway, I asked people on 245 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.960 my mailing list to if anyone was interested, fill out 246 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:00.840 a survey where I asked people to share with me 247 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.840 three examples from their own lives that they would describe 248 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.799 of memories they would describe as having been quote so fun, 249 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:09.960 with the so capitalized. Because I'm a science journalist, I 250 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:12.120 didn't know how else to phrase it. It wasn't very technical. 251 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:14.960 And then I asked them, can you describe an experience 252 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:16.840 or something you might plan that would feel fun if 253 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.399 you could do anything right now? And it was absolutely 254 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:23.639 fascinating because I got thousands of responses to this survey, 255 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.320 and it was from people all around the world, and 256 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:28.960 the details they shared with me were obviously different, right, 257 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:31.799 but there were commonalities that kept popping out, like the 258 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.120 feeling was the same, so the emotion was the same, 259 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:36.480 And then there were themes that popped out. One thing 260 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.919 that really stood out to me is that there was 261 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:42.720 something very powerful, emotionally moving about these stories people were 262 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:46.000 sharing that did not, again match up with the Dictionary 263 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:49.320 definition of fun just being lighthearted pleasure. So when I 264 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:53.759 read through people's stories, I often found myself simultaneously with 265 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.600 a huge smile on my face, but also feeling like 266 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.919 I was about to cry, like there was something very 267 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:02.720 moving about these stories. And there were also three themes 268 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:04.879 that kept popping out again and again and again, to 269 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:08.159 the point that I came to conclude or hypothesize that 270 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.519 they constitute a definition of what fun truly is that's 271 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:13.960 more accurate than the idea that it's just lighthearted enjoyment. 272 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:16.679 And then I ran my definition by the people who 273 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:18.279 had shared their stories with me to see if they 274 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.879 agreed that this would match their experiences, and the vast 275 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:22.919 majority of people said it did capture it. So my 276 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.639 hypothesis is that true fun is the confluence of three states. 277 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:31.519 Okay, so pay attention. Fun has three ingredients, and they are. 278 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:36.360 And those three states are playfulness, connection, and flow. So 279 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:40.440 playfulness is often misconstrued by adults as meaning you need 280 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:42.559 to act like a child, or you need to be 281 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.120 silly or somehow be immature, which makes a lot of 282 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.240 people very uncomfortable. But to clarify, I'm actually talking more 283 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.759 about the attitude that you bring to a situation or 284 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.559 your life, like a playful attitude, finding ways to laugh, 285 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:56.759 not taking yourself too seriously, you know, letting down your 286 00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:59.840 guard regardless of what the actual activity is, and that 287 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:02.639 is nearly Actually, I would say it was universal in 288 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:06.360 people's stories, this spirit of playfulness, the element of connection 289 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:09.879 was interesting because truly, the vast, vast, vast majority of 290 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:12.320 stories people shared with me, there was another person involved, 291 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:15.159 and that was true even for people who self describe 292 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:19.480 themselves as introverts. And I found that fascinating. Sometimes dogs 293 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:21.480 were involved, but really it was normally people. And it 294 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:23.200 was to the point that, you know, I asked people, 295 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:25.279 did anything surprise you about what you just told me? 296 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:27.120 And there were a number of people who said something like, 297 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.240 I'm an introvert, but all the stories I just told 298 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:31.279 you had another person in them. So there seems to 299 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:33.480 be this element of having a shared experience, like a 300 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.639 special shared experience. And that was actually one of the 301 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.000 top picks when I gave people a list of descriptors 302 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:41.759 that they could choose to describe their fun experiences. Special 303 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.519 shared experience was one of the top, alongside laughter. 304 00:14:45.879 --> 00:14:49.279 Just brutal to be reading these during lockdown too, Yes. 305 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:51.279 Exactly, that was the depressing part. I was like, oh, 306 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:52.679 human connection. 307 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.320 But that also gives us such an insight into why 308 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.519 maybe the last few years have been so difficult exactly. 309 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:01.440 And it also that was helpful in that particular moment 310 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.159 because it meant that if any possibilities for human connection arose, 311 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:07.559 I should take them, like you know, a zoom happy hour. 312 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.000 Would I want to do that right now? 313 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:09.200 No? 314 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.039 But like then yes, yes please, because that's like as 315 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:12.679 close as you're. 316 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:16.120 Going to get. So so far we have one playfulness too, 317 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:21.679 shared experience maybe a human or an animal connection. And 318 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:22.399 then the last. 319 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.440 Element was flow and flow is a is your listeners 320 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.440 mar or you know, it's a term that describes a 321 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.360 state we get into when we're totally actively engrossed in 322 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:32.200 something that we're doing, like up often to the point 323 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:34.840 where you lose track of time. So the quintessential example 324 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:38.039 is an athlete playing a game. Or the psychologists who 325 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:39.960 coined the term chick sent me high He actually used 326 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:41.759 the example of rock climbers. He did a lot of 327 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:44.600 interviews with rock climbers, because if you're scaling a rock wall, 328 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.039 your mind is not wandering, You're totally focused on what 329 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:48.039 you're doing in that moment. 330 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.480 And me Hi cheek sent me high e. It's quite 331 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:54.559 a name. A Hungarian psychologist and author coined that term 332 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.919 flow after many, many interviews with painters and rock climbers 333 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:03.480 and hobbyists, factory workers, people across all these different vocations 334 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:06.679 and interests, and he kept hearing about being swept away 335 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:11.080 in something like a river of focus. Hence the term flow, 336 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:15.200 and his nineteen ninety book Flow, the Psychology of Optimal 337 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:20.279 Experience was on so many artists and politicians nightstance it 338 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.799 probably still is, and in it he wrote, flow happens 339 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.799 when a person's skills are fully involved in overcoming a 340 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:31.320 challenge that is just about manageable, so it acts as 341 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:34.919 a magnet for learning new skills. So too easy, you 342 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.600 get bored too hard, and it sucks in provokes anxiety. 343 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:42.440 But flow happens also where there are some clear goals 344 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.399 and some high stakes and being in your body chicks. 345 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.720 Meai was not a fan of TV, and though he 346 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.440 died just a few years ago at age eighty seven, 347 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:55.159 he probably would not have thought highly of the amount 348 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:58.279 of time I've spent looking at an algorithm of DIY 349 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:02.679 home renovations, especially since I'm not doing any DIY home renovations. 350 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.920 In fact, some sociologists have noted that the ubiquity of 351 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:10.839 television in the nineteen forties and fifties has a direct 352 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:16.519 correlation to a drop in hobbies and in inventions. People 353 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:20.000 were too occupied with the Ed Sullivan Show to go 354 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:22.880 tanker on things in the garage, and now we're too 355 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.119 occupied with content of people tinkering in their garage to 356 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:29.920 tanker in our garage. But why did he cite rock 357 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:31.920 climbing so much? What was to deal with that? Well, 358 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:34.920 he was also a rock climber, and he said in 359 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.839 his book that the mystique of rock climbing is climbing. 360 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.319 You get to the top of rock glad it's over, 361 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.960 but really wish it could go on forever. 362 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:44.519 He writes. 363 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.519 The justification of climbing is climbing. I will note it's 364 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.559 always a good day when you don't fall to your death. 365 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:54.119 And for more on that in particular, you can see 366 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.559 the show notes for our Quasi Thanatology episode about near 367 00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:58.559 death experiences. 368 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.599 But we all can get into in less dramatic situations 369 00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.599 like this conversation, for example, or in a work project. 370 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.359 But it's basically like you're not distracted. You were actively 371 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.400 engaged and focused. It's not the same as losing track 372 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:12.279 of time. If you're watching TV, which I always like 373 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.000 to clarify, that's what you sent me high called junk flow, 374 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.759 and that's a different state. It's very active. So what 375 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.519 I came to conclude for myself and propose is that 376 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.400 true fun is the center of that Venn diagram where 377 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.880 you have playfulness, end, connection, and flow all existing at once. 378 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:31.599 I think that kind of answers your question about play, 379 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.119 that play is part of fun or playfulness is part 380 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.680 of fun. I'd also want to clarify, like fun as 381 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:39.920 a feeling, it's not actually an activity. I think a 382 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.079 lot of times people will say, oh, you know, like 383 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:44.720 what's fun, and they'll say, oh, I don't know, Like 384 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.839 going to concerts or pickleball was very common for a while, 385 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:50.400 But it's like we all have times when we went 386 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:52.400 to a concert and it was incredibly fun, and then 387 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:54.079 we went to a concert and maybe even the same 388 00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:56.119 performer and it wasn't so fun. So it's not so 389 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.079 much about the activity itself, but rather the feeling that's produced. 390 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.880 And then, in terms of joy, when you're asking about 391 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.160 what do I see the difference being between fun and joy? 392 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.079 I think that fun is a type of joy, like 393 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:08.839 they kind of fit together, but they're not the same. 394 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.319 Like you can have joy that's not playful, like the 395 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:14.519 example I always uses the birth of a child, right, 396 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:19.119 or you're not laughing necessarily, no, I'm crying. So I 397 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:21.400 think that they're related, but they're not the same. But 398 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.599 that fun, the feeling of fun produces joy, Like if 399 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.440 you're having fun, you're probably also feeling pretty joyful in 400 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:28.279 that particular moment. 401 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.640