WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.160 It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Costin's news 2 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:06.839 radio Try Well. 3 00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:11.720 Today, the Massachusetts State Supreme Court, in their infinite wisdom, 4 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:20.679 decided that the Massachusetts MBTA Communities Act is constitutional and 5 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:24.079 can be enforced by the Attorney General. But there was 6 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.559 a big caveat, and so a story that we have 7 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:33.240 covered now for well really just about a year has 8 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:35.200 reached the big fork in the road, and we have 9 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:37.079 two guests tonight who are going to talk about it. 10 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:42.079 One is Denny Swinson. She is a Milton resident. The 11 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:46.520 town of Milton is steadfast in its opposition to this 12 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:51.920 piece of legislation. This legislation which is imposing obligations on 13 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:55.679 one hundred and seventy seven communities are in Massachusetts, and 14 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:59.119 one of the attorneys on the case, Attorney Paul Hogan. 15 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.920 Denny Swinson, welcome to Nightside. You've been here before. Attorney 16 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:07.319 Paul Hogan. Welcome for your debut here on Nightside. How 17 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:08.920 are you this evening, Attorney Hogan. 18 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:13.280 I'm good, Dan, thank you, thank you for having me 19 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:15.040 on tonight. 20 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:20.400 Okay, I'm going to get hi Danny. Okay, Attorney Hogan, 21 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:22.200 I get to you in a couple of seconds. I 22 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:25.040 want to start off with Denny Swinson. Danny, you have 23 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:31.200 articulated before Milton's concern and we know that Milton voters 24 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:38.640 not only have actually voted this, this a proposal cooperation 25 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:41.560 in position. Well, however you want to characterize it down 26 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:44.640 at the equivalent of a town meeting. But I think 27 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:49.799 you also, if I'm not mistaken, have changed the members 28 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:51.719 of the Bordist selectment a little bit. I mean, this 29 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:54.480 is a very important issue in the in the town 30 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:57.000 of Milton. Why is that? Can you just sum it 31 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.000 up what the opposition is and then I want to 32 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:02.239 talk to attorney about the implications of today's decision. 33 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:06.959 Oh sure, thank you so much for having us. Yes, 34 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.159 in Milton, we have been trying to work with the 35 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:13.879 state for years to address some of the issues that 36 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:17.159 are preventing us from meeting the goals of the legislation. 37 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:20.800 It really comes down to this one size fits all 38 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:24.240 approach does not work for Milton. And I'm learning from 39 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.719 over thirty other towns that they've been having the same 40 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:31.680 sort of hardship that Milton has been having in trying 41 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:36.759 to work through these guidelines. And you know, the headline 42 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:42.000 that I take away from reading the opinion and the 43 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:44.840 court order coming out of the SJAC today is that 44 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:48.919 Milton did not violate the law. Milton did not violate 45 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:53.439 the Act, and the state has been enforcing illegal guidelines. 46 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:57.599 I think those are the biggest takeaways for me. And 47 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.039 you know, I think one of the key sentences is 48 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:06.120 in the conclusion that the hlc's current guidelines were not 49 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:10.120 promulgated in accordance with the Administrative Procedure Act. And I'm 50 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:14.479 quoting this from the s jc's conclusion, we declare them 51 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:19.120 ineffective and as such, presently unenforceable. I think this is 52 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:21.479 really big news, and I'm happy to share it with 53 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:21.960 you tonight. 54 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:27.639 I appreciate that so, Attorney counselor I look at this 55 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:36.080 situation as a political effort. This this is going to 56 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:41.360 benefit developers, and developers support politicians. And I know that 57 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:45.400 it passed while Governor Baker was our governor and it 58 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:51.560 is being implemented by Governor Healy. But this, to me, 59 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:55.240 I always thought, and I am not I'm a lawyer, 60 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:58.680 but I'm not at your level in terms of this case. Certainly, 61 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.479 I all we thought that zoning provisions were sort of 62 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:07.520 sacro saycd H and that as long as communities applied 63 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:10.240 them fairly, meaning they did not discriminate against people and 64 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:15.520 know its constitutional rights were violated, a community could decide 65 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.600 what type of zoning they wanted. Now, if Beacon Hill 66 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.800 wants to tell every town in Massachusetts that they need 67 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:29.519 a bowling alley and arcade and three golf courses, what's 68 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:30.160 the difference. 69 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:35.360 Well, I think that's a great point, Dan, and you know, 70 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:40.079 you are right. Zoning has always been sort of the 71 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:45.720 primary the power was with the local communities outside of 72 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:49.240 being an attorney. You know, I was the political head 73 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:54.879 of the Watertown government and we rezoned that town. So 74 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:59.360 zoning was always the purview of the local communities here. 75 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:02.759 You know, I think think you talk about a political view. 76 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:08.600 There seems to be this great desire to just increase housing, 77 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.959 but there's a danger that, you know, the ends just 78 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:14.959 they think the ends justify the means, and they bypass 79 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:19.480 the requirements for these kinds of rules. I mean, they 80 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:25.199 just really bypass the Administrative Procedure Act. I represent fourteen 81 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:30.800 small businesses. They're really severely impacted by these regulations, and 82 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.439 for whatever reason, it seems like that the agency just 83 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:41.079 didn't seem to value or care about these particular requirements 84 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.000 from the Administrative Procedure Act. 85 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:46.759 Are those fourteen small businesses spread out amongst one hundred 86 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.519 and seventy seven communities. Are they all primarily located in Milton? 87 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:52.040 They are not? 88 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:54.680 Actually, I believe that I'm this counted. 89 00:05:54.720 --> 00:06:02.399 I think that seventeen businesses Milton won a Branks, one 90 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:04.240 in Quinsey and one in Hamilton. 91 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:04.639 Gotch. 92 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:09.199 You need to have ten businesses for this type of challenge. 93 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:13.319 You know, the Supreme Judicial Court ask for amaricus. 94 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:16.199 Briefs back in March of this year, and these small 95 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:22.879 businesses got together and they had ME prepared a brief 96 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:28.720 for them, citing the lack of attention to the requirements 97 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:32.000 from the Administrative Procedure Act about small businesses. 98 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:36.959 Okay, Now, today the governor celebrated the decision and said 99 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.759 that these guidelines would be written and in place and 100 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:46.120 effective by Friday. Tomorrow's a holiday, federal holiday, as I recall, 101 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:50.680 And to me, that seems to be somewhat ambitious. And 102 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.519 I assume that whatever is written and presented will ultimately 103 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.120 also be litigated or would I be wrong on that. 104 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:02.519 Counselor well, it certainly would be the kid, because what's required, 105 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.600 Dan is that they're supposed to develop a plan for 106 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:07.800 small business. 107 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:11.319 And hold hearings, and you're not going to. 108 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:17.000 Have a meaning co hearing by Friday. So it seems instance. 109 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:21.279 Here and not really valuing what happened today. 110 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:22.600 I agree with Day. 111 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.759 I mean, the governor and Attorney General seem to celebrate 112 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.759 the decision, but really the Supreme Judicial Court came down 113 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.959 and said that these these regulations are no good, not unfortuable. 114 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.480 So that's a that's a full stop, and I think 115 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:39.000 they have to return to the detailed procedures of the 116 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:40.240 Administrative Procedure Act. 117 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:44.240 Okay, we are we're talking about a decision today by 118 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:49.079 the Massachusetts States Supreme Court. I know that if you 119 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:52.000 continue to listen, folks will get you up to speed. 120 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:54.399 Her My guests Denny Swinson, a Milton resident who is 121 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.759 very much opposed to this. She's in the majority within 122 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:00.839 the town of Milton, and also Attorney Paul Hogan, who 123 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.879 is representing some seventeen small businesses. Fourteen of these businesses 124 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:10.000 are in Milton, but three others are in other communities 125 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:13.199 here in Massachusetts. And we're going to just talk about 126 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:15.079 this with them a little bit more briefly, a little 127 00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:17.480 bit on the other side, but I invite you to 128 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:21.399 call and whether you live in Milton or in any 129 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:25.399 of the other one hundred and seventy seven communities, some 130 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:30.560 of which have actual NBTA service and some of which 131 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:35.679 are merely contiguous to towns that have NBTA service, and 132 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:39.200 another set of communities are contiguous to the towns that 133 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.840 are directly contiguous. So it's it's complicated, and we'll try 134 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:45.759 to keep it straight for you. And if you'd like 135 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:48.879 to join the conversation six one, seven, two, five, four 136 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.480 ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty, 137 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:54.480 we get to as many calls, as many points of 138 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:57.639 view as possible right here on Nightside. After a couple 139 00:08:57.639 --> 00:08:59.360 of very quick messages. 140 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:03.279 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 141 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.080 night Side Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio. 142 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.200 We're talking with the two guests about the MBTA Communities Act. 143 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:15.919 Now again, the Healthy Administration is celebrating this as they 144 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.519 would you would think it as a total victory. But 145 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:23.200 my guest, Danny Swanson, who is from Milton, and Attorney 146 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:26.840 Paul Hogan see it quite differently, very quickly, if I could, 147 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:28.399 Denny and I want to get to as many phone 148 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:32.799 calls as possible amongst your supporters in Milton and in 149 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:37.559 other communities today. What's been the reaction to this decision 150 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.960 as it's been reported. Do you think people understand the 151 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.440 how that it has been reported, perhaps not as accurately 152 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:47.279 as it should be. 153 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.000 That's a great question, Dan, I've been following this, you know, 154 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.720 Milton's been the citizen of Milton. I've been working really 155 00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:56.840 hard on this for a couple of years now, and 156 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.799 I really feel like, you know, a year ago, Milton 157 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:03.840 was catching up with a lot of the issues that 158 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.080 are before us. And now, you know, in the last year, 159 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.440 I've seen the other towns sort of catching up. I 160 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:14.519 really saw a lot of momentum building in September and 161 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:17.159 through the fall when things had to come to a 162 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:20.519 vote to town meeting, you just saw the learning curve 163 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:25.360 just keep going at a pretty good clip. The momentum. 164 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:28.480 You know, the citizens seem to have the momentum on 165 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:29.159 this one. Now. 166 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:33.799 Attorney Hogan, do you think that the court I was 167 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:36.440 not in court for the arguments that I'm sure you 168 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:41.279 were involved in quite heavily. Do you think that the judges, 169 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:47.000 the justices on the State Supreme Court understood the implications 170 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:52.720 of this act as it has been constructed, meaning yeah, 171 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:57.279 everybody wants to see more housing, great, but to basically 172 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:02.320 impose it and relate it to the MBTA, the implications 173 00:11:02.320 --> 00:11:04.480 for a lot of these communities is going to be 174 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.279 an explosion in the number of kids they haven't that 175 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:11.840 they will have to educate publicly in public schools. That's 176 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:13.919 going to mean more teacher, is going to mean perhaps 177 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.080 more buildings. I mean, there's some economic consequences down the 178 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:22.960 line here above and beyond more housing units in the community, 179 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:28.200 there's some financial implications and the judges. Did the justices 180 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.360 seem to either address that or be aware of that 181 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:32.840 or was that even a factor in the arguments of 182 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:33.399 the briefs? 183 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:37.519 Yeah, I did this fine point at the end of 184 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:43.080 the decision. It's not just a small business impact plan 185 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:47.200 wasn't developed. The law requires that they also do a 186 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:51.919 fiscal analysis both for the first year, second year, and 187 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:56.159 then for five years. So the agency should have done 188 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:00.279 a fiscal analysis about the impact of this project in 189 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.679 the first year, second in five years. And you're absolutely right. 190 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.639 I mean, here, you know the impact on the police 191 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.440 and fire, the need for more people. That there was 192 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:12.600 talking Milton that we would need a new fire station 193 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:17.720 for twenty five hundred more units in the East Milton area. 194 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:23.519 The water and sewer is already its limit, you know. 195 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.960 The schools, as you mentioned, they're talking about building a 196 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:31.799 six school here already in Builton. They did mention sort 197 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:35.519 of in the last page that one of the requirements 198 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:39.320 of the administrative procedure at the so called APA is 199 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:44.000 that you'll file a fiscal statement. So the justices did 200 00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:47.720 at least acknowledge that to your point, But I don't 201 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:52.279 think overall in the big body the decision because one 202 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:54.399 of the reasons I'm on tonight is because the brief 203 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.120 that the small businesses filed was the one that really 204 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:02.320 was the slice that calls the court to say that 205 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:06.399 the regulations can't be enforced. But there are other parts 206 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.360 of the brief, and Denny was working on this with 207 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:12.159 a lot of people that really talked about the impact, 208 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:13.879 and I think the court missed it there. I think 209 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:19.000 the court doesn't seem to grasp or what a terrific 210 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:23.559 impact this would have on some communities and parts of 211 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:24.679 our committee here in Milton. 212 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:28.519 The court also did not I read the decision. I 213 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:30.559 didn't read it as I would. I mean, I read 214 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.519 it carefully, but I like to read decisions three or 215 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.200 four times carefully. I didn't see that they talked much 216 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:42.120 about the penalties that are associated with this law. They 217 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.399 talked a lot about whether or not the Attorney General 218 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:47.879 could enforce the law, and by implication, I guess the 219 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:55.399 funding that Milton residents and resident taxpayers would be deprived of, 220 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:59.320 or any community would be deprived of. It's very much 221 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:03.320 a carrot and a stick. Not only will we hit 222 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.840 you over the head with the stick, but we'll also 223 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.120 you're not going to get any of these carrots. And 224 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.120 these are tax dollars that people have in Milton and 225 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:13.879 elsewhere paid into the state. The court didn't seem to 226 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.399 go into that in much much depth or detail. Or 227 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:18.120 did I miss it? 228 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.960 I'm go ahead, I answering, Oh no, I noticed something. 229 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:29.399 It's interesting. In the final footnote number twenty three, it 230 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:32.679 says I'm trying to boil it down for you, but 231 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.159 as HLC will need to promulgate guidelines consistent with the 232 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:42.240 administrative procedural requirements, those new guidelines may differ from the 233 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:45.519 ones presently in place. We need not reach whether the 234 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.600 existing guidelines are consistent with the Act. So in other words, 235 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.840 it's like the justices are acknowledging we're not going to 236 00:14:53.360 --> 00:15:00.720 evaluate whether or not the penalties that the that the 237 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:07.240 guidelines continually added on too are consistent, because we've already 238 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:11.080 told you the guidelines are unenforceable and therefore they're going 239 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:15.879 to need to be repromulgated, and therefore therefore we're not 240 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.159 going to evaluate them. We're just telling you. Yeah, that's 241 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:21.919 the way that I read that footnote. I thought that 242 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.240 was interesting because, as you might recall, Dan, it started 243 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:30.720 out in the Legislative Act as four funds that towns 244 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:33.639 would opt out of, in effect, if they didn't do 245 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.080 what they would lose those four funds. And then as 246 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:39.600 as we went through our year, Milton went through our 247 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.840 year and finally got to tail meetings, the guidelines, we're 248 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:47.039 adding additional funds, and it went from four to seven, 249 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:49.480 to thirteen, and then it got up to twenty by 250 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.639 the you know, it just kept growing. So those those 251 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:59.200 guidelines that were added are not enforceable, so they're they're 252 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:03.960 not gonna, you know, find a decision on whether or 253 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:05.080 not they were consistent. 254 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.279 Yeah, it's like saying that you've been convicted of something 255 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:12.440 and the penalty calls for, you know, two to three years, 256 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:14.480 but we're going to hit you with twelve twelve, twelve 257 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:16.799 years or twenty years, whatever we might decide to do. 258 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.519 It seems a little unfair. Council. A quick comment on you, 259 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.840 do you read that the same way as as Denny 260 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:23.240 reads it. 261 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:29.080 I do. And there was some talk in the decision 262 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.440 that Milton had said, well, you know, we can opt 263 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:37.080 out and not get these funds. But there was you know, 264 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:39.399 not clear to me executing what the what the ESJC 265 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:42.919 was saying that what what are the enforcement actions I 266 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:48.919 guess requiring the town to create this zoning district. It 267 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.919 seems unclear that there was any anything there at all. 268 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.559 Yeah, I think the reference was that that they could 269 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:59.559 be enforcement inequity, and I don't, frankly, frankly understand what 270 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:01.960 they mean by that. I do understand what equity means 271 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.839 as opposed to at law, but it was there were 272 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.319 there were some holes in the decision. So we'll we'll see. 273 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:12.519 We're going to get to phone calls. Denny an attorney hole, 274 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:16.039 and I hope you both can stay there six one, seven, two, five, four, 275 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.960 ten thirty. Those lines are full. However, if you want 276 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.119 to take advantage of a couple of lines one other 277 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:23.640 line six one seven, nine three one, ten thirty, we 278 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:26.359 would get as many people in as possible, not looking 279 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.200 for speeches, looking either for questions or or or sixcinct 280 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.799 comments as to how you feel about not only today's decision, 281 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:39.359 but this MBTA Communities Act in general. It was interesting today. 282 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.359 I was reading one press release from the Pioneer Institute 283 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.519 and they they're thrilled about it. And that's a very 284 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:51.359 interesting organization. It's generally a very free market type organization, 285 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:54.960 almost a libertarian aspect, and it's it was interesting to 286 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.119 see the Pioneer Institute come down in favor of the 287 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.880 Court's decision today. But that's that's a side note that 288 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:05.680 I won't ask you guys about. We'll just take a 289 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:07.640 quick break here for some news and get the phone 290 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.000 calls right after the break. I think it's an important 291 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.920 issue because it really does talk about how much again 292 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:19.319 absent some constitutional deprivation. Obviously, none of these communities are 293 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:24.039 being accused of compromising or denying any individual or group 294 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.720 of individuals their rights. To move into their communities. This 295 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.039 is not a redlining sort of case. This is like 296 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.119 do it our way or the highway, and I just 297 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.240 don't like that tone coming from Beacon Hill as a citizen. 298 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:39.720 That's all. We'll be back on Nightside right after this. 299 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:43.799 If you're on night Side with Dan Ray on w 300 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.240 B Boston's news radio. 301 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:50.440 We're ready to go to phones. My guest Denny Swans Swinson. 302 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.680 She is a Milton resident who has been in the 303 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:58.880 forefront of this fight against the MVTA Communities Act, And 304 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.359 when I say against it, I think she's willing to 305 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:05.720 cooperate as long as the state makes clear what is 306 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:10.400 involved and just doesn't steamroll the community. That a fear characterization. 307 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:15.160 Denny, Yes, that is that's that's fair. I think there, 308 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.480 you know, there's a middle ground to be had and 309 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.200 I am hopeful that we can take this opportunity to 310 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.319 create an avenue, you know, talk through the tough issues, 311 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:27.200 and there are tough issues in each town. In Milton, 312 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:30.960 it's the misclassification of rapid transit. But as you know 313 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.960 from having you know shows on this in another town, 314 00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.920 it's a safe access in and out, or in many 315 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:41.440 towns it's the lack of hospital care or access to 316 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:44.519 a hospital. In another town, I was talking to a 317 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.440 farming community. They have serious concerns about not having enough 318 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:51.960 water or access to underground water. They're a farming community, 319 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:55.480 and there is no avenue to talk with the state. 320 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:00.400 The state is totally insensitive to this part of their concern. So, 321 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:05.359 you know, I talked to residents all the time and 322 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.599 people from other towns, and there just needs to be 323 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.480 an avenue for our towns to be able to address 324 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.160 our concerns and to work together, you know, to find 325 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:18.480 a middle ground and to find solutions. 326 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.839 Let's try to find some solutions with our callers. We 327 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.839 have attorney Paul Hogan here who's representing small businesses about 328 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.440 seventeen small businesses, and Denny Swinson, who is an activist. 329 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:32.839 I think she were now a community activist in Milton. 330 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:34.799 Let's go to a couple of callers from Milton. Let 331 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.599 me go first to Kerry, who's calling in for Milton. Carry. 332 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:39.960 You are first this hour and night side with Denny 333 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.799 Swinson and also attorney Paul Hogan. What's your question of comment? 334 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:47.599 Carrie Hi Dan, thanks for taking my call. Happy New 335 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.440 Year and happy eighteenth anniversary. Thank you for taking the call. 336 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.680 I appreciate you covering this topic because you're really one 337 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.279 of the few people who has been very helpful and 338 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.759 relentless in covering and uncovering I think kind of the 339 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:07.000 root cause of what's going on behind here. As you 340 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.000 have said a couple of times on your program, previous programs, 341 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.759 not tonight, follow the money, right, there's a lot of 342 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:14.880 things going on here. 343 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.119 Money. There's no doubt about that, Yeah. 344 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.079 No doubt, no doubt. Yes, yes, absolutely, any good reporter 345 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.440 knows that, right, And I really appreciated hearing Attorney Hogan 346 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:31.400 come now and also speak about some of the important 347 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:35.400 points about that lack of consideration of small businesses. And 348 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.720 that's not just an issue here in Milton, but that's 349 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.599 an issue that I hear from many people in a 350 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.400 number of other communities, including Marshfield where I grew up. 351 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:47.079 It's an issue, and it's switch it's an issue in 352 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.279 many of the other towns. Are having the same hands 353 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:52.880 that some of the towns that are grappling with the 354 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:53.799 same issues. 355 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:54.119 That we are. 356 00:21:54.880 --> 00:22:01.279 And as you accurately reported, you know, of course, this 357 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:07.039 is sort of a battle for the freedom of our 358 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.480 rights and when you speak about this here we are 359 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:13.359 this will be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Lessington, 360 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:19.640 Massachusetts is the birthplace of if you will are independence 361 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:24.160 from tyranny. I feel like this is a somewhat tyrannicle, tyrannical, 362 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:31.079 you know, ruth somewhat against many of our towns. Then 363 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:36.400 we're all trying to do good things about providing housing, homes, 364 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.039 you know, everything that we can. Janny brings up a 365 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:43.680 lot of great points. But my question really to Governor 366 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:46.960 Haley if she would ever take a question from me. 367 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:50.000 I have loved in many you know, emails through her portal. 368 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:54.799 If the law is truly aimed at addressing the regional 369 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:58.759 housing crisis, then why is she at the same time 370 00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:05.000 filling up our precious few spaces for emergency housing for 371 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:11.079 citizens battling you know, homelessness, addiction, the danger of the 372 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.200 streets and places like mass and cats, et cetera, et cetera, 373 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:18.119 et cetera, with illegal aliens. And it's sort of seems 374 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:22.640 kind of ironic. Maybe, I don't know, strange that this 375 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:25.279 ruling came out today. I didn't know. I don't know 376 00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:29.000 if Attorney Hogan or Denny expected this would come out today. 377 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.400 I was surprised. Maybe I'm just missing it. 378 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:34.720 Well, you never know. The State Supreme Court issues rulings 379 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:36.799 on their own schedule. Trust me on that. 380 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:41.319 They yeah, no, no, you're right, Dan, I. 381 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.440 Realized that, Well, we'll just leave that question. I don't 382 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:47.839 want to go off into a different question. Well, we 383 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:52.599 can leave the questions like that, but let's if either 384 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:55.559 Denny or Attorney Hogan want to address it, they can, 385 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:58.000 but we can leave it as a rhetorical question, or 386 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:05.920 you can comment on or Attorney Hogan. 387 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:13.160 Thank you, Erry, Thank you any Hogan. I think it 388 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:16.839 is more of a rhetorical question, but it is. It's 389 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:19.599 a good point. I mean, if we have this type 390 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:24.559 of housing crisis, it's driving them to bypass the Administrative 391 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:28.440 Procedure Act. Why are we using up these other resources? 392 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.599 Uh for people that way? 393 00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:35.240 Okay, all right, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Gary, 394 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:38.599 will we talk again, Thank you, Thank you, great night. 395 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:40.799 Let me go next to Mark is in Milton as well. 396 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:42.440 Mark next on Nsich. Go right ahead. 397 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.240 Hey, Dan, thank you so much, and thank you for 398 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:47.000 being the person over the course of the past year 399 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:49.160 or so has put some light on this topic. Very 400 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.400 few of the media outlets are covering this in an 401 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.279