Speaker 1: Welcome to our deep dive today. Yeah, it's a fascinating one.
Speaker 1: We're diving deep into the world of cyber warfare and
Speaker 1: hardware trojans.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, very relevant.
Speaker 1: And you have provided us with quite a mix of sources.
Speaker 1: We've got excerpts from books about viruses, hardware software, trojans,
Speaker 1: and some potential countermeasures, and then also some articles, yeah,
Speaker 1: research papers as well.
Speaker 2: So it seems like you're really trying to get a
Speaker 2: good grasp of this whole thing.
Speaker 1: You're looking to understand this complex topic, right, not just
Speaker 1: what these threats are, but how vulnerable our everyday tech
Speaker 1: really is exactly.
Speaker 2: And it's a really good question to be asking. You know,
Speaker 2: most people when they think of cyberwarfare, they maybe think
Speaker 2: of something out of a movie, right, But the reality
Speaker 2: is it's a lot more complex and a lot closer
Speaker 2: to home than we might like to think.
Speaker 1: Oh. Absolutely. And you know what's so interesting to me
Speaker 1: is how this all evolved. Yeah. Well, we think about
Speaker 1: cyber warfare, right, think about you know, nation states and
Speaker 1: shadowy government agencies. But our sources suggest a very different
Speaker 1: origin story.
Speaker 2: Yeah they do. It's it's not what you would expect. Now,
Speaker 2: what do you think it's really interesting, Yeah, tell me more.
Speaker 2: Criminal organizations were actually some of the earliest innovators in
Speaker 2: this space.
Speaker 1: So they were using software exactly and hardware trojans to
Speaker 1: commit crimes way before, way before government's caught on. Governments
Speaker 1: even knew it was going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Wow, what kind of crimes are we
Speaker 1: talking about?
Speaker 2: Give you an example, early days of online banking, there
Speaker 2: was this group they developed a hardware trojan. It was
Speaker 2: disguised as a simple USB card reader. Oh wow, So
Speaker 2: you can imagine these unsuspecting customers. They plug it into
Speaker 2: their just to check their balances, you know, and bam,
Speaker 2: this trojan stealing their credentials, steals their login credentials.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, gives.
Speaker 2: The criminals access to their accounts. That's really, of course illegal, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but a brilliant use of this technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah wow. So how did this jump from stealing a
Speaker 1: few bucks to becoming full blown cyber weapons.
Speaker 2: Well, intelligence agencies and militaries, Oh, they saw the potential
Speaker 2: of these techniques. They quickly recognize the power of what
Speaker 2: we call information weapons.
Speaker 1: Okay, so information weapon, Yeah, how is that different from
Speaker 1: a traditional weapon?
Speaker 2: Let me try and break that down. So, think of
Speaker 2: a traditional weapon like a bomb causes physical damage, right,
Speaker 2: an information weapon it targets data, software, and hardware with
Speaker 2: the aim to disrupt, manipulate, or destroy.
Speaker 1: So the goal is to undermine Yeah, the target's capabilities,
Speaker 1: that's right, And that can have real world consequences very
Speaker 1: much so. So it's like a virtual attack, yeah, but
Speaker 1: with real world cost. Yes.
Speaker 2: And just like with traditional weapons, information weapons can be
Speaker 2: offensive to attack or defensive to protect.
Speaker 1: So give me an example.
Speaker 2: Okay, so what does a real world cyber attack look like.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: One of the most notorious examples is the stuxnetworm. Okay,
Speaker 2: this is back in twenty ten. This targeted Iran's nuclear program.
Speaker 1: Okay, I've heard of this one.
Speaker 2: It is a fascinating case study.
Speaker 1: So this is the one that actually caused physical damage. Yes,
Speaker 1: I remember reading about this. This is crazy.
Speaker 2: So Stucksnet specifically targeted these centrifuges that are used to
Speaker 2: enrich uranium. It manipulated the programmable logic controllers Okay, which
Speaker 2: basically are the computers that control the centrifuges.
Speaker 1: Got it.
Speaker 2: The worm caused them to spin out of control. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: damaging the equipment.
Speaker 1: So it set back Uron's nuclear program significantly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, significantly.
Speaker 1: That is incredible.
Speaker 2: It really highlights I mean, not incredible in a good way, right,
Speaker 2: of course not.
Speaker 1: But it just shows how powerful these things are. But
Speaker 1: we're here to talk about hardware trojans.
Speaker 2: Right right, specific So.
Speaker 1: Why are those considered such a big deal in this
Speaker 1: whole cyber warfare landscape.
Speaker 2: Well, hardware trojans are especially concerning because of how stealthy
Speaker 2: they are. Okay, they are literally embedded within the hardware itself,
Speaker 2: making them incredibly difficult to detect.
Speaker 1: So like if traditional software like anti virus can't catch them, yeah,
Speaker 1: what can?
Speaker 2: A good question.
Speaker 1: You almost need to know exactly what you're looking for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you really do.
Speaker 1: And even then, it's a needle in a haystack, it
Speaker 1: really is.
Speaker 2: It's finding these tiny pieces of malicious circuitry hidden inside
Speaker 2: legitimate hardware, right, it's a huge challenge.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: They're designed to blend in Oh wow, often disguised as
Speaker 2: harmless components.
Speaker 1: So give me an example, like a.
Speaker 2: Phone charger, okay that secretly records your conversations. Oh my gosh, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's the level of threat that we're talking about here.
Speaker 1: Hold on back up for a second. Yeah, how does
Speaker 1: it you can even get into a phone charger in
Speaker 1: the first place. Well, that's the thing, Like, isn't that
Speaker 1: all made in like these really high tech factories. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you'd need access to the manufacturing process to do something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: So it's an inside job.
Speaker 2: You could say that hardware trojans are typically inserted during
Speaker 2: the manufacturing process. It could be like a tiny, almost
Speaker 2: invisible modification to a chip's design, a few lines of
Speaker 2: code added to the firmware, or even like a completely separate,
Speaker 2: malicious circuit added during assembly.
Speaker 1: That's scary. It is a concerned like almost any device
Speaker 1: could be compromised.
Speaker 2: Then, Yeah, that's the scary part.
Speaker 1: It's like a ticking time bomb waiting to.
Speaker 2: Go off, you could think of it that way.
Speaker 1: And they're everywhere.
Speaker 2: And that's what makes it even scarier, is this potential pervasiveness. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we're talking vulnerabilities in everything from smartphones and laptops to cars, airplanes,
Speaker 2: critical infrastructure. Wow, it's a big problem.
Speaker 1: Okay, I am officially freaked out now. Yeah, we've got
Speaker 1: these tiny little trojans lurking in all of our devices.
Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially everywhere.
Speaker 1: They could do all sorts of an anti things.
Speaker 2: It's a big problem.
Speaker 1: But how do they actually work?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: How do you technically speaking.
Speaker 2: Hide something like that in a chip?
Speaker 1: How do you hide it?
Speaker 2: It's incredibly complex. Yeah, it really speaks to the ingenuity
Speaker 2: of the attackers. You know, these chips that we have
Speaker 2: today are so complex, billions of transistors interconnected in ways
Speaker 2: that are almost impossible to fully comprehend.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You've got engineers who designed these things, and even
Speaker 1: they even.
Speaker 2: They don't always understand every single detail how it works. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's like hiding a single altered pixel in a
Speaker 2: massive high resolution image.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a great analogy.
Speaker 2: No one would ever notice.
Speaker 1: Nobody would notice.
Speaker 2: It's just one little, tiny pixel.
Speaker 1: So the attackers might make these subtle changes, okay, to
Speaker 1: the physical layout of the transistors, or introduced tiny little
Speaker 1: delays in the way.
Speaker 2: That the signals travel through the chip.
Speaker 1: So they're messing with the timing exactly.
Speaker 2: And these modifications are so small that they can't be
Speaker 2: detected through visual inspection.
Speaker 1: You can't even see it.
Speaker 2: You can't see it. Wow, it's like trying to find
Speaker 2: a single misspelling in a library full of books.
Speaker 1: That's a good analogy, right, Okay, so that's one technique.
Speaker 2: That's one.
Speaker 1: What are some other ways?
Speaker 2: There are a number of other ways.
Speaker 1: That they hide these things.
Speaker 2: One clever tactic is to exploit what's called unused or
Speaker 2: redundant circuitry. Redundant circuitry, So what is that Modern ships
Speaker 2: today they often have these sections of circuitry that are
Speaker 2: designed for testing purposes or as backups in case of
Speaker 2: a component failure.
Speaker 1: It says, like a spare room in a house.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, like a spare room.
Speaker 1: You don't use it every day.
Speaker 2: You don't use it, but it's there. If you need it,
Speaker 2: you got it. So attackers they can repurpose, okay, this
Speaker 2: unused circuitry for malicious.
Speaker 1: Purposes, so they can hide their trojan in these like
Speaker 1: inactive areas exactly. So it makes it harder.
Speaker 2: To detect, much harder to detect.
Speaker 1: Because it's not actually interfering with the normal function of
Speaker 1: the chip exactly. So you wouldn't even know.
Speaker 2: It's there unless you knew where to look.
Speaker 1: So it's like a secret passage hidden behind a bookcase.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't know it was there unless you knew where
Speaker 1: to look exactly.
Speaker 2: And then there's another technique called logic obfuscation.
Speaker 1: Logic obfuscation, This one's a little bit more technical, Okay,
Speaker 1: break down for me.
Speaker 2: But essentially it involves scrambling the logic of a circuit, okay,
Speaker 2: making it very difficult to understand without the right key.
Speaker 1: So it's like you're encrypting a message.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's like encrypting a message.
Speaker 1: You take a readable message, you scramble it with a
Speaker 1: secret code exactly, and then you send it.
Speaker 2: To someone, right, and only the person who has.
Speaker 1: The key with the key can decipher it, can read it.
Speaker 1: Got it.
Speaker 2: So logic obfuscation does.
Speaker 1: Something similar with circuits. Okay. The attacker will take the
Speaker 1: malicious code and they will rewrite it in a way
Speaker 1: that just looks like gibberish okay to anyone who doesn't
Speaker 1: have the key.
Speaker 2: So it's like hiding a message in plain sight. Yes, exactly,
Speaker 2: the code is there. The code is there, but it's disguised.
Speaker 1: It's disguised to look like something else, to look like
Speaker 1: something else, so it just blends in with the rest
Speaker 1: of the circuitry, is.
Speaker 2: Just part of the background noise.
Speaker 1: Exactly and it makes it extremely difficult to identify.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's so sophisticated. And to make matters worse, they
Speaker 2: can have all sorts of crazy activation mechanisms. It's not
Speaker 2: like they just switch on as soon as you plug
Speaker 2: in your phone charger.
Speaker 1: Not necessarily, right, So the activation mechanisms can be very specific.
Speaker 1: Some are triggered by a particular date or time, others
Speaker 1: by a specific signal or sequence of events.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: There are even trojans that are designed to activate randomly, so.
Speaker 2: They're totally unpredictable, incredibly unpredictable.
Speaker 1: So they could be lying dormant free years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, potentially just waiting for the right moment to strike.
Speaker 2: That is a concern.
Speaker 1: That's terrifying.
Speaker 2: It is a concern, and this is why detecting hardware
Speaker 2: trojans is such a challenge. Yeah, it's not just about
Speaker 2: finding a physical piece of hardware, right, but it's about
Speaker 2: understanding how it's programmed and.
Speaker 1: What triggers it, what might trigger it. Okay, so this
Speaker 1: is where the detective work comes in. Yeah, are there
Speaker 1: any telltale signs? There are some any clues that researchers
Speaker 1: look for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are some subtle things when.
Speaker 1: They're trying to find these potential trojans.
Speaker 2: One common red flag is unusual delays in the chips operation. Okay,
Speaker 2: so if a chip is taking longer than expected to
Speaker 2: perform certain tasks, that could be a sign that a
Speaker 2: hidden circuit is interfering with its normal function.
Speaker 1: So it's like you're talking to somebody and they have
Speaker 1: like a slight hesitation, yes, like a little or dropped
Speaker 1: word purple. It might not be obvious at first, but
Speaker 1: it could be a sign that something is wrong exactly.
Speaker 2: Another sign is unusual power consumption. Okay, So if a
Speaker 2: chip is drawing more power than it should.
Speaker 1: That could be a sign that something's going on.
Speaker 2: That a hidden circuit is active when it shouldn't be.
Speaker 1: So it's like looking at your electricity bill, yeah, and
Speaker 1: noticing a spike even though you haven't been using any
Speaker 1: more appliances.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Something's using up that extra power.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what is that?
Speaker 2: And then there's also these side channel emissions Okay, we
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, things like variations and electromagnetic radiation. These emissions
Speaker 2: can actually reveal these subtle patterns of activity within the chip,
Speaker 2: and they could potentially exposing the presence of hidden circuitry.
Speaker 1: Wow. So it really is like forensic science.
Speaker 2: It really is.
Speaker 1: You're looking for tiny little clues, tiny little clues that
Speaker 1: tell a bigger story exactly. It's a good analogy.
Speaker 2: Require specialized equipment, yeah, sophisticated analysis techniques, and a healthy
Speaker 2: dose of intuition.
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a fascinating if a little terrifying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, deep dive thick a complex topic.
Speaker 1: Into this world of hardware trojans. But I want to
Speaker 1: shift gears a little bit and talk about solutions.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We've talked about some countermeasures, sure, like secure design practices
Speaker 1: and trusted manufacturing. Are there any other strategies.
Speaker 2: Yes, there are actions.
Speaker 1: They are being developed to combat this.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of research and development going on in
Speaker 2: this area, Okay, some promising advancements, Like what so one
Speaker 2: area that's particularly exciting is the development of what's called
Speaker 2: specialized hardware security modules. Hardware security hardware security modules.
Speaker 1: What are those?
Speaker 2: So? These are essentially separate chips that are designed with
Speaker 2: security as their primary function.
Speaker 1: So they're like a watchdog.
Speaker 2: Yes, they act as a sort of watchdog. They're monitoring
Speaker 2: the activity of the other chips within a.
Speaker 1: System, looking for anything suspicious.
Speaker 2: Exactly. So if they detect something fishy, they can take
Speaker 2: various actions to prevent or mitigate attacks.
Speaker 1: So it's like a security guard station inside your computer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. Just
Speaker 2: watching everything, watching everything.
Speaker 1: So they can isolate compromised chips. Yeah, they can do that,
Speaker 1: prevent unauthorized access to data, or even shut down the
Speaker 1: entire system.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if an attack is detected.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that's powerful stuff.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: Are there any other promising approaches?
Speaker 2: There are? So Another area of active research is called
Speaker 2: split manufacturing.
Speaker 1: Split manufacturing, what's that?
Speaker 2: So this involves dividing up the manufacturing process of a
Speaker 2: chip among multiple trusted parties.
Speaker 1: So instead of one company having control over the whole
Speaker 1: thing exactly, different companies are responsible for different.
Speaker 2: Stages, different stages, and each company only has access to
Speaker 2: the information, got it, that's necessary for their specific part
Speaker 2: of the process.
Speaker 1: So they don't see the whole picture.
Speaker 2: They don't see the whole picture. So it makes it
Speaker 2: much more difficult for an attacker.
Speaker 1: So they can't just sneak something in there.
Speaker 2: To compromise the chip without being detected.
Speaker 1: That's really smart.
Speaker 2: It's a clever way to minimize the risk of a
Speaker 2: point of failure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're spreading it out exactly. It seems like there
Speaker 1: are a lot of smart people working on this problem.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of very smart people.
Speaker 1: That's good to hear.
Speaker 2: It's a top priority for governments, militaries, and technology companies
Speaker 2: all over the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the stakes are high.
Speaker 2: The stakes are incredibly high, and.
Speaker 1: As we talked about the potential consequences, they are.
Speaker 2: Really scary to think about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not good.
Speaker 2: So it's a constant battle. Yeah, a race to stay
Speaker 2: ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1: So what do you think the future holds.
Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to say.
Speaker 1: For sure, but with all this investment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with continued investment in research and development and a
Speaker 2: commitment to international collaboration, I think we can make significant
Speaker 2: strides in mitigating this threat.
Speaker 1: Well that's reassuring.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not all doom and gloom.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like we're not completely helpless.
Speaker 2: Right. But before we move on to the final part
Speaker 2: of our deep dive, I want to make sure we
Speaker 2: give the listeners some key takeaways sure from this part
Speaker 2: of the conversation.
Speaker 1: So what are the main points?
Speaker 2: What do we want them to remember?
Speaker 1: Hardware trojans are a real and growing threat. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: are not just the stuff of science fiction or spy thrillers.
Speaker 2: This is real life.
Speaker 1: This is real life, This is happening, This is happening.
Speaker 2: And it's a clear and present danger, yes.
Speaker 1: To our national security, economic stability, and personal privacy.
Speaker 2: And as we've discussed, these trojans can be incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1: To detect, very difficult to detect.
Speaker 2: They're often hidden in plain sight. They are disguised as
Speaker 2: legitimate parts of a ship's circuitry exactly.
Speaker 1: So that's why it's so important, Yeah, to be cautious
Speaker 1: about the technology we use.
Speaker 2: We can't just blindly trust that our devices are secure.
Speaker 1: We need to be informed consumers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to ask questions, ask questions about security
Speaker 2: measures as.
Speaker 1: And demand greater transparency from the manufacturers.
Speaker 2: Right, And even with all these technological advancements, no silver bullet,
Speaker 2: no easy effects, no fool proof solutions.
Speaker 1: So security is an ongoing process.
Speaker 2: It's a constant evolution.
Speaker 1: So we've spent the last two parts of this deep
Speaker 1: dive really getting into the nitty gritty of hardware trojans. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the detail, how they're made, how they're hidden, the sheer
Speaker 1: scale of the threat.
Speaker 2: Right, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: It's a lot to take in, it really is. But
Speaker 1: now I'm curious about what the future holds, what's coming
Speaker 1: next in this constant battle between those who want to
Speaker 1: exploit these vulnerabilities and those who are trying to defend
Speaker 1: against them.
Speaker 2: Well, you're right, it is this constant back and forth,
Speaker 2: and honestly, predicting the future of cyber warfare it's kind
Speaker 2: of like trying to predict the weather. Things change so quickly.
Speaker 2: But there are definitely some key trends and emerging technologies
Speaker 2: that are worth keeping a close eye on. Like one
Speaker 2: that's particularly concerning is the rise of artificial intelligence. Yeah
Speaker 2: a yeah, everyone's talking about AI these days, it seems.
Speaker 1: Like it, but I haven't really thought about it in
Speaker 1: the context of cybersecurity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well think about it this way. AI can be
Speaker 2: used to automate a lot of these really complex tasks,
Speaker 2: and that includes tasks related to cyberwarfare.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: So on the offensive side, attackers could use AI to
Speaker 2: identify vulnerabilities, develop much more sophisticated malware, and even launch
Speaker 2: attacks that adapt to changing defenses in real time.
Speaker 1: So it's like giving the bad guys a superpowered toolkit.
Speaker 2: That's a good way to think about it. Okay, But
Speaker 2: there's a flip side to this as well.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Security researchers can also leverage.
Speaker 1: AI right for good for good, Okay.
Speaker 2: AI can be used to analyze massive amounts of data,
Speaker 2: identify patterns of malicious activity.
Speaker 1: So you can see it coming.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and develop countermeasures much more quickly than humans could
Speaker 2: on their own.
Speaker 1: So it's an arms race. Both sides are using AI.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's a constant race.
Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, so that's AI.
Speaker 2: What about another trend that's worth watching is this increasing
Speaker 2: integration of technology into every aspect of our lives. This
Speaker 2: Internet of things right where everything is connected, Where everything
Speaker 2: is connected, This creates a much larger attack surface for
Speaker 2: cyber criminals.
Speaker 1: So like my smart toaster could be hacked.
Speaker 2: Well maybe not your toaster, but you at the idea.
Speaker 2: As more devices become connected, the potential for vulnerabilities increases,
Speaker 2: and a lot of these devices aren't really designed with
Speaker 2: security as the.
Speaker 1: Top priority, so they're easy targets.
Speaker 2: They're easy targets.
Speaker 1: Okay, So we've got AI, we've got the Internet of things.
Speaker 1: What about quantum computing?
Speaker 2: Quantum computing.
Speaker 1: It's still early days, but I've heard it could really
Speaker 1: change things.
Speaker 2: It's a game changer.
Speaker 1: When it comes to cybersecurity.
Speaker 2: It really is. One of the biggest concerns is its
Speaker 2: potential impact on cryptography. So the encryption algorithms that.
Speaker 1: We use today yet to protect our data.
Speaker 2: To protect our data, they rely on these complex mathematical problems. Okay,
Speaker 2: that are difficult for traditional computers to solve, right, But
Speaker 2: quantum computers.
Speaker 1: They can just blow right through that.
Speaker 2: They could potentially crack these codes much faster. Wow, which
Speaker 2: would make our current encryption methods obsolete.
Speaker 1: Is it like a master key?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a master key that can unlock any door.
Speaker 1: And that's a little scary. It is a concern, and
Speaker 1: this is something that people are working on.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, security researchers are taking this very seriously. They
Speaker 2: have to, and they're already working on developing new encryption
Speaker 2: algorithms that are resistant to quantum attacks.
Speaker 1: What sounds like we have a lot to look forward to.
Speaker 1: We do both good and bad.
Speaker 2: It's a mixed bag.
Speaker 1: So as we wrap up this deep dive, Yeah, what
Speaker 1: are some key takeaways for our listener?
Speaker 2: So for anyone listening out there.
Speaker 1: What can they do to stay safe in this world?
Speaker 2: First and foremost, stay informed. The threat landscape is always changing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so it's crucial to keep up with the latest trends.
Speaker 1: Read articles, listen to podcasts, absolutely ten conferences.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything you can do.
Speaker 1: Stay ahead of the game.
Speaker 2: To stay ahead of the curve. Yeah, and don't be
Speaker 2: afraid to ask questions. Right, if you're concerned about the
Speaker 2: security of a particular device or technology, do your research,
Speaker 2: do your research, reach out to the manufacturer, talk to
Speaker 2: the experts, talk to experts. Knowledge is power.
Speaker 1: Knowledge is power. And I think a big takeaway for
Speaker 1: me is security is everyone's responsibility.
Speaker 2: It really is.
Speaker 1: It's not just the job of governments or these big companies.
Speaker 2: We all have a role to play. We all have
Speaker 2: a role to play in making our digital world a
Speaker 2: safer place.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Be cautious about the technology we use. Absolutely, practice
Speaker 1: good cybersecurity hygiene.
Speaker 2: And report any suspicious activity if you.
Speaker 1: See something, say something exactly. Well, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for taking us on this deep dive.
Speaker 2: Oh it's been my pleasure.
Speaker 1: It's been eye opening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a fascinating topic.
Speaker 1: And to our listeners, thank you for joining us. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you stay safe, stay informed, stay curious, and until
Speaker 1: next time, keep exploring, Keep exploring.