WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:04.839 Something's going to happen? 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 What's going to happen? 3 00:00:12.599 --> 00:00:17.120 Thank you? What a. 4 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:29.199 Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, We've got a 5 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:32.759 very special guest, very excited to have him on. We 6 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:36.159 have Richard Kazinski. But before we get to him, we 7 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:38.600 will introduce the other rejects we got on the show. 8 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:41.560 And today we got joining with us. We got the 9 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:44.280 lovely Lisa, the Occult of reject a mad scientist to 10 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:45.359 what is going on? Lisa? 11 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:49.159 How are good? Thank you? Good morning here at least, 12 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:52.799 Thank you Nick for inviting me and looking forward to 13 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:58.079 Toctor Kazynski's talk today and to also discussing with Robbie 14 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:01.039 and Jen as well. Thank you. And the only thing 15 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:03.640 I'd like to plug is vehicle researches to dot org 16 00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:04.719 check us out. 17 00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:08.040 Awesome. Thank you very much and I really appreciate you 18 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:11.200 joining us with us. And we got my managin the Ninja. 19 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:11.760 What is going on? 20 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:11.920 Sir? 21 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.640 How are you? What's up? Boss? 22 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:15.480 Thank you so much for having me, and thank you 23 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.760 to Lisa and Robbie and of course doctor Kasinski. I'm 24 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:23.239 quite excited for this. I'm not a tall despite the rumors, 25 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:27.400 but I'm quite interested in the neo gnosticism like the 26 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:32.519 broader cosmology and maybe even ontological perspectives within it. And 27 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:34.200 so if you want to check me out, you can 28 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:36.439 follow me at willcong Reborn to w Uko and g 29 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:39.959 Reborn or at Threshold Saints, which is the show account 30 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.359 on both Twitter and ig as well as the True 31 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:45.840 Gray Lodge with a v the True Gray Lodge dot 32 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:48.480 com where you can find us. We're doing a Friday 33 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.599 Night Gnostic book club tonight instead of Nastic Mass, so 34 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:56.799 we are reading Kenneth Grant's Night Side of Eden Part one, 35 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.719 So yeah, check that out if you're interested, and thank 36 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:02.879 you so much, appreciate it. 37 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.239 And we got the man himself, the storyteller, Robbie Marx. 38 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:07.879 What is going on, sir? How are you? 39 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.759 Good morning everybody. It's good to see everybody today. I'm 40 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:14.080 glad to be on with such a good crew and 41 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.039 excited to hear what Richard has to say and where 42 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:22.000 we go. My name is rob or Robbie or Robert Marx, 43 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:25.800 and I'm an artist illustrator. I'm working on a book 44 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:29.039 right now. But yeah, if you want to check out 45 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.520 my various projects and works, you can go to my 46 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:36.960 link tree which is link tree rarx and that'll pull 47 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:40.400 up everything for you. And yeah, thanks for having me on, Nick. 48 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:42.719 Of course, Robbie, I really appreciate it. I'm glad you 49 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:45.800 made it. And finally to the guest himself, we got 50 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.639 Richard Kazinski. He's a scholar and psychologist. He's got a 51 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:52.000 PhD in social psychology and he is a student of 52 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:56.080 THELIMA since the late nineteen seventies. He's an OTO contributor, 53 00:02:56.240 --> 00:02:59.719 editor and lecturer on magic. And today we will be 54 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.000 talking about Mind over Magic, The Psychology of Ritual Magic, 55 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.840 which is one of his newer books. And again I'm 56 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.120 very excited to have you on. And please, Richard, anything 57 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:11.800 that I left out, Let people know what you want 58 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:13.199 them to know about you and where they can find 59 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.039 any of your amazing one. 60 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.240 All right, well, I'm perhaps best known as the author 61 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.400 of the biography of Alistair Crowley called Perdurabo The Life 62 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:26.639 of Alistair Crowley, and I've also written various other books 63 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:31.479 on Western esotericism, including books like Forgotten Templars, The Unknown 64 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.639 Origins of Argo Templear Orientis, which does a deep dive 65 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:39.719 into the odd byways of Masonic history, and how all 66 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.360 of that fed into OTO, as well as books like 67 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:48.039 The Wiser Concise Guy to Alistair Crowley and recently the 68 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.680 critical edition of Alistair Crowley's early work The Sort of Song, 69 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:54.639 which has been put out in a Delexe edition by 70 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:58.120 your Traditions, who also are a publisher of my newest book, 71 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.919 Mind Over Magic as You, which hits the stores on 72 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:06.360 October seventh. So I hope, yeah, you're all inspired to 73 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:08.080 check that out when it comes out. 74 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:09.479 Oh for sure, for sure. 75 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:10.159 You know. 76 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.879 Fun fact, it's a little it's almost embarrassing to mention you, 77 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.759 but I did read your book on Alistair Crowley in prison. 78 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:18.439 I came across that in prison and read it in 79 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:22.160 the so very good work, thank you. 80 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:25.240 It's a lot, a lot of reading, so hopefully had 81 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:27.319 the spare time to dig into it. 82 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:29.600 Yeah, you'd be actually surprised how much the li mix 83 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:33.439 stuff was in the Wow there's a lot here actually yeah, yeah, yeah, 84 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:40.079 it was interesting enough. So yeah, mind over Magic. Uh. Well, first, actually, 85 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.000 if you don't mind what even got you into the 86 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:45.879 occult world? You know, how did you even start off 87 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:47.240 with that? And how did you end up getting into 88 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:49.120 the OTO? If you know my music. 89 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:54.879 Well as far as the occult world goes, I think 90 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:58.279 we're just something about There was like this perfect storm 91 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.160 over who I am and times I grew up in 92 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:04.560 because at the time I was growing up, you know, 93 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:07.959 I remember as a as a very small child, is 94 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.519 loving Star Trek and then when heard Nimoy wound up 95 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:14.079 hosting this TV show called In Search of which like 96 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:18.399 this week we show that investigated the weird and the unexplained, 97 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.519 from you know, Bigfoot to esp and I, as I Treki, 98 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:24.720 of course, had to watch this. But there were like 99 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:31.439 movies coming out, like those Mysterious Monsters and and you 100 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:35.319 can literally go into the grocery store. The other one 101 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:38.800 by my house, you know, had you know, like The 102 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:43.600 Man Myth and Magic magazine that came out, and I 103 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:47.680 actually one week had my mom buy me The Techniques 104 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:50.600 of High Magic by Francis King and Steven Skinner. So 105 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.360 it was just like everywhere. One of my favorite memories 106 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.439 is that living in Detroit where I grew up, we 107 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:03.000 were close enough to win to get Canadian television and 108 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:07.800 they had a game show called Beyond Reason and it 109 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:10.920 was kind of like a metaphysical what's my line? They 110 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:14.480 had three people in sound group roof booths, and they 111 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:16.839 would bring in a special guest who would be out 112 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:21.839 of sight, and the three panelists would have sixty seconds 113 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:25.199 ask questions. One was a psychic so they had some 114 00:06:25.319 --> 00:06:30.319 personal item of the guest, one was an astrologer who 115 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.120 had the birth chart, and one was a palm writer 116 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:35.800 who had a photo of a person's hand. And so 117 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:38.839 they had sixty seconds ask the questions and guests who 118 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:43.040 the guest was. And as you can imagine, sometimes it 119 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:49.199 was uncanny. Sometimes it was just off the left field. 120 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.279 They weren't even close. But one thing I remember very 121 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:55.839 clearly is this one time astrologer was looking at this 122 00:06:55.879 --> 00:06:58.639 person's chart and saying, and this had nothing to do 123 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:02.040 with why they were famous, saying, oh, I see you 124 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:06.839 had an accident evolving falling off a horse and you're 125 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:08.839 seeing like, you know, a split camera thing, to the 126 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:12.560 panelist going wow, yeah, and you were about fourteen years 127 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:16.720 old at the time and you broke your arm. And 128 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:19.560 this person's like going like, how did you know that? 129 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:22.000 So it was always a lot of fun to tune 130 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:24.800 in and check this stuff out. But again, this kind 131 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:27.759 of stuff was just everywhere when I grew up, and 132 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:32.560 it just fascinated me. And again, obviously everyone who grew 133 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:35.519 up at the same time as me did not know 134 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:37.399 glom onto this stuff the way that I did. But 135 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:40.040 it was just, you know, I just kind of felt 136 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:41.959 like all those things in the culture at that time 137 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:47.000 has kind of funneled me into this direction. And one 138 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:50.439 day I discovered there was a metaphysical bookshop. So I 139 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:53.560 got my bicycle and puddled five miles to the store 140 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.920 and got to know the owner, and I picked up 141 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.720 a copy of Israel regard as the Golden Dawn, and 142 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:02.000 I came back two weeks later. He said, oh, do 143 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:04.240 you like that? If you did, you might be interested 144 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:07.399 in this, and he pulled out Alistair Croway's Magic in 145 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:11.879 Theory and Practice. You know, again, I'm this fourteen year 146 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:13.959 old kid reading this, going I don't know what this means. 147 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:15.800 Yeah, I was, you said, did you even understand that? 148 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:19.120 I can't understand it now. 149 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:20.920 Well, the thing was, there was this end where he 150 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:24.120 like signs with all his magical mottos and grade symbols 151 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:26.279 and all of that, and I was like, I don't know. 152 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:26.920 What this is. 153 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.160 It was it was like a puzzle that that point 154 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:32.320 was a challenge, Like I am going to I'm going 155 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:38.080 to figure this out, and you know, it's that's going 156 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.279 on in that direction ever since Nice. 157 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:43.360 You know, it's kind of interesting, like you're saying, though 158 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.120 at the time you grew up, I even feel like 159 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:47.679 that was like even most of the people in this 160 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:49.600 panel all around the same age. I feel like the 161 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.840 time that we grew up, there was like something I 162 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:53.720 don't know if there was, like people are having their 163 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:56.639 own magical experiences and they were creating and putting magic 164 00:08:56.679 --> 00:09:00.000 out there themselves. But it's like I feel like certain times, 165 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:02.879 is there certain things going on that like maybe us 166 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:04.799 as kids there was something in the air that we 167 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:07.279 caught onto and it just made us like search for something. 168 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:10.240 You know, we caught we felt that magic, but what 169 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:10.639 is it? 170 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:14.559 And search There were just like dozens and dozens of 171 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.360 like UFO books, so you could pick up and just 172 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:21.279 you know, or you know, Belakovski's Worlds in Collision and then 173 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:23.679 those all kinds of stuff. Is you know these mass 174 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:25.000 market paperbacks. 175 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:28.480 Yeah, just as a kid, like the Paranormal got bigger again, 176 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:32.159 UFOs Horror was huge. You know, you just had all 177 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.960 these different like to a child, it's just like it's 178 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:36.240 a playground in the imagination. 179 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.360 Well, and when I was in I don't know, fourth 180 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:41.960 or fifth grade, at the Scholastic book fair, you know, 181 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:44.679 sponsored by the school. You know, I got one of 182 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:47.559 those books and in it it was talking about the 183 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.799 men in black from inside the Hollow Earth. They would 184 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.799 come up and watch people and you know, so it's 185 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.320 like just and then you got the Twilight Zones and 186 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:59.919 the weird its just it all, It's just gloriferic. 187 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.480 It was everywhere, you know. Yeah, I remember picking up 188 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:08.600 from the Scholastic book Fair somebody strange and amazing stories 189 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:11.120 talking about it like a woman who allot of an 190 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:16.039 airplane and survived, and the strange parallels between John F. 191 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:21.240 Kennedy and Abraham Lincoln's you know, Life and Deaths and 192 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.960 again the Lucknows Monster and all kinds of things Acholastic books. 193 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.360 It made the world magical and you wanted to seek 194 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:32.279 out what this strange kind of you know thing was 195 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:33.960 subsiding in this reality. 196 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:38.480 You know, absolutely, I think I had this feeling as 197 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.360 a kid that you know, we had we had done 198 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:44.639 the moon landing, you know, we were sending you know, 199 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:49.360 the first voyager satellite out into space, and you know, 200 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:52.159 we had mapped the Earth so pretty much, and you know, 201 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.879 science was doing all these amazing things, so it seemed 202 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:59.840 like science had discovered everything it was about the world 203 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:02.120 around us, and of course that wasn't true, but kind 204 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:03.919 of as a as a kid, it kind of felt 205 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:06.399 that way because there's this amazing world of science. But 206 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:10.399 then when you start talking about these mysterious things, you know, 207 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:13.600 what what whatever reason of both things? Or what is 208 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:16.240 the astral plane? And what is this magic stuff? And 209 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:21.360 someone becomes this unsharted territory and it and that was 210 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:23.159 also very exciting and enticing. 211 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:26.399 Right, that's awesome. 212 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:26.840 I like that. 213 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.039 I've got the Scholastic I had totally forgot all about that. 214 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:32.279 You just took it back around. You know. It's funny. 215 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:34.080 A couple of weeks ago I saw a meme about 216 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:36.320 like that, and it was like, yo, like two dollars 217 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:38.720 in the Scholastic book day was like your your life 218 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.759 was set, Like that's how simple life was. Give me two. 219 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:47.759 Bucks to this day. Like the Golden Book of Hallucinogenic Plants, which. 220 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:56.039 That is awesome. All right, So how about if you 221 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.600 don't mind, before we get into the book, how long 222 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:00.960 have you been like I guess to uh you are, 223 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.039 remember I was showing over the oto correct, So. 224 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:08.159 Yeah, I've been. I was kind of like a corresponding member, 225 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:10.919 you know, my pre initiated member since about nineteen eighty six, 226 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:16.519 and then I actually initiated in San Francisco in nineteen 227 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:19.840 eighty eight and been remember ever since? 228 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:22.440 Oh nice, okay, all right, so that's been a minute. Yeah, yeah, 229 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:24.559 and I see, uh, I had watched one of your 230 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.000 interviews recently with David Schoemaker. That was awesome, wasn't it. 231 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:28.519 Yeah. 232 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:32.440 Yeah, he's another person I think has Yeah, Living to Lima. 233 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.360 I think that's an amazing book. Actually, yeah, yeah, I'd 234 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.519 listened to uh, I listened to all his podcasts on 235 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:40.639 that stuff back in the day and everything. Yeah. But uh, 236 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:43.919 all right, yeah, back to you this book. What was 237 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:45.559 the reason you booked this out? What did you think 238 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:47.639 other books were lacking? And this is why you felt 239 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:51.320 the urge to put this out if that's the case, 240 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:52.000 If that's. 241 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:56.720 The topic that people hadn't actually tackled. A lot of 242 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:01.919 times when people talk about psychology and magic, they tend 243 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.679 to get into a lot of you know, theoretical stuff 244 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.759 that's kind of unprovable. I mean, like you know, for example, 245 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:13.399 Carl Jung is amazing as in terms of a model 246 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:18.120 of how the mind works, and it's a great therapeutic 247 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.759 model for dealing with patients and therapy, but none of 248 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:28.080 its assumptions are are testable using modern science. It's one 249 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.080 of these It's just kind of like a model that 250 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.519 you you work with and then you get the results, 251 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:35.320 but you know, with your patient population, but you can't 252 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:38.720 test it in the scientific way. And other books on 253 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:42.000 the topic tend to like go off into quantum mechanics 254 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:45.120 and things like that, which again is interesting, but it's 255 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:48.000 if you actually talk to a physicist, most of them 256 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:50.120 are going to say, yeah, that's not really how it works. 257 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:54.519 And I don't mean to dismiss either of those approaches, 258 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.720 but I wanted, you know, my background is in social psychology. 259 00:13:57.799 --> 00:14:02.240 It's very much geared to sign tipic research and statistical analysis, 260 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:06.519 and I wanted to bring an actual hard data, hard 261 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:11.399 research that pertain to magic. And while there's there aren't 262 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.960 people out there doing research or they are doing a 263 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:16.799 real time brain imaging of someone while they're doing a 264 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.159 magic ritual, you know, vanishing or something like that, there's 265 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:26.519 a lot of research in psychology about things that you know, 266 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:30.919 those personality traits and the effects of our environment around 267 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.639 us and so on that apply to what magicians do. 268 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:38.919 And by magician, I'd use that term very broadly anyone 269 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:42.279 who engages in any kind of spiritual practice. So I 270 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:44.960 don't mean to exclude, you know, people who might call 271 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:47.440 themselves a wicked instead of a magician or whatever. I mean, 272 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.840 we're all doing those people are all doing magic, and 273 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.240 that's sometimes using this in a very broad and inclusive way. 274 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:55.759 I use the magician in the same way. I feel 275 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:59.840 like it just includes everybody. No, I think that's great though. 276 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:02.519 That's one thing that thought was like impressive about having 277 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:04.000 you on, and I think I you know, I guess 278 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.919 shoemaker would be the same thing. But there's that too 279 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:09.159 many people in my opinion, that are actually trying to 280 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.639 bring like academic science into a cult or not enough, 281 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.320 I don't think, And I think there is a lot. 282 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.279 I think if ocultists and scientists were to maybe just 283 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.559 put their differences aside and actually talk to each other, 284 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.559 they'd make so much progress, that's my opinion. That's the 285 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:25.039 thing to like. 286 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:27.519 Another thing that a lot of the people who write 287 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:30.639 on magic and psychology do is they'll they'll lean into 288 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:36.559 parapsychology research, which is fascinating and I'm very intrigued by that, 289 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.879 but I also get this field. Once you start talking 290 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.039 about that, there's like a whole swath of people who 291 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.840 automatically dismiss that because there are skeptics and they aren't 292 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:50.799 accept the possibility that that stuff could exist. And another 293 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.159 part of my rationale with this book was, now want 294 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:57.519 to I want to focus on solid, peer reviewed research 295 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:02.679 about psychology, not you know, not psychological theories or models, 296 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.000 not necessarily parent psychology. And you know, there's plenty of 297 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:09.039 books about that stuff that people can go and read 298 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.759 if they want to pursue those avenues. But I have 299 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:16.519 like a very specific focus on evidence based approaches that 300 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.240 you know, and it may be naive, but hopefully not 301 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:25.960 that would allow that reaching across the aisle for practitioners 302 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.840 and scientists to actually find that common ground. 303 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.279 Well, go ahead, I was going to say, I think 304 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.480 it's interesting when you look at the idea of science 305 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.759 versus the paranormal, getting into all the quote unquote woo woo. 306 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:49.360 It's like science the way it's set up it's only 307 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:56.320 it's only able to test certain means that are repeatable 308 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:02.159 within the physical matrix. Anything be beyond that that becomes mental, 309 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.279 that becomes vibration, that becomes you know, higher forms of 310 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.799 etheric unders it just doesn't have the tools, so you 311 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.759 know it. Then it becomes the individual body and the 312 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.920 repeatable phenomena and these things. So can you kind of 313 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.839 get into some of these ways that we can with 314 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:27.599 repeatable means be able to kind of draw out some 315 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.200 of these you know, higher kind of forms that are 316 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:34.000 above and beyond the physical matrix. 317 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:39.079 Yeah, Actually, what we were saying, right, And we have 318 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:42.039 a couple of interesting things, one of which is this 319 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:47.599 idea of repeatability and Dean Reading in his early book 320 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:50.319 The Conscious Universe kind of talks about this. Dean Reading 321 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:54.200 is a is a you know, a parapsychologist. But he 322 00:17:54.960 --> 00:18:00.440 talks about how this issue, this issue that's scientists, particularly 323 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:07.079 skeptical scientists, expect certain phenomenon to be repeated and replicated 324 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.240 in the in the lab one hundred percent of the time, 325 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.720 you know, with with this with high degree of reliability. 326 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.680 And he points out that we will pay some millions 327 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:18.799 of dollars who can hit a ball with a stick 328 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:23.519 one time out of three. And so this idea that 329 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:27.079 you know, we can accept, you know, the the idea 330 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:31.839 that a baseball player is not perfect, but I can't 331 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.319 accept the idea that some of these states of consciousness 332 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:39.880 that happen don't necessarily happen on demand in a laboratory setting. 333 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:47.519 So yeah, I'm sorry, I think I'm talking. I lost 334 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:48.440 track to what you're asking. 335 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.839 Well, just in regard to how do we test these 336 00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:58.480 outer limits, Yeah, and be able to have you know, 337 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:06.000 verifiable kind of for those that you know, refuse to 338 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:10.839 believe in these further kind of proceedings. 339 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.400 Right right, Well, and I'm reminded of I believe this 340 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.440 is Bill Moyer's. He was the guy that ran that series, 341 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:22.039 The on Myth with Joseph Campbell, I think yet like 342 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:25.519 a separate series, but he remember him in they showed 343 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.279 coming up with this example about how a dog's nose 344 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:33.839 is an amazing device. I mean, it can smell. Also, 345 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:36.039 he can smell, you know, the scent of its owners. 346 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:38.359 It can go out and sniff hydrants and things like 347 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:41.839 that until who's been there before. And through that mechanism, 348 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.720 a dog can learn a lot about the world. But 349 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:49.400 Bill Moyer says, you know that the sniff test is 350 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:54.599 not a way of finding out about God. And in 351 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.640 the same way, and you could say that science is 352 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.400 good at a lot of things, but there are certain 353 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:02.880 things that not good at right, and you've got to 354 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.799 use the right tool for the right job. And for 355 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:09.720 me and my approach to this book, I'm not again 356 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:13.240 trying to explain everything that happens to people when they're 357 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:19.000 doing magic, whatever their practice may be. As all psychology, 358 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:24.079 it's I think Alistair Crowley talks about magic being the 359 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:28.920 art and science of causing change occur in confirmity will. 360 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.400 So science is only part of that. There's also art, 361 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.480 and so my approach is kind of like, okay, let's 362 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.759 talk about the science part. But there's also a thing 363 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.440 that we really can't talk about in science. There's that subjective, 364 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:48.359 unique experience that people will have, and that's kind of 365 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:51.079 another realm, and I'll I'll allow people to interpret that 366 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.720 as they will. But one of the things I do 367 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:58.640 in Mind over Magic is in the last chapter, I 368 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.559 try to take you know, a semester course and research 369 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.559 design methodology and back into one kind of short chapter 370 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:10.119 about what is the scientific method, how can you like 371 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:14.640 test your own magical work for yourself. So if you're 372 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:19.160 doing some you know, magical operation for this outcome, you know, 373 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.599 you kind of walk through the steps of how you 374 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.480 would develop a hypothesis, how you might go about collecting 375 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.319 your data, how you might control for other things, and 376 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:33.200 how you can critically evaluate whether your experiment worked or not. 377 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:37.200 And that I think arms readers with a toolbox to 378 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:42.119 try to apply this method to their spiritual work, because 379 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:45.319 some of this process may be this trial and error 380 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:51.200 of finding a system that works for you. And again, 381 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.640 you can't tell what works for you until unless you 382 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:54.759 can tell what works. 383 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:56.240 Right. 384 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:03.359 But there are common repeatable phenomena that are occurrences. Otherwise 385 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.920 this this whole idea of you know magic or the 386 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:12.759 magi or going back into all these ancient practices, it 387 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.039 wouldn't have persisted in Risen and come about because there 388 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:21.559 are common repeatable you know, people get an effect when 389 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:22.559 they participate. 390 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:28.640 Yeah, that's the that's the whole mind of like a 391 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.440 lot of these these schools, they they'll say, hey, here's 392 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:34.200 these techniques. Here these tools you can use, you know, 393 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:36.680 do this lesser manage ritual the pentagram or do this, 394 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.880 you know, calling of the watch towers or what have you, 395 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:46.119 and or even let's let's do this, you know, let's 396 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:51.119 do this Catholic mass, you know, and van transubstantiate. 397 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:59.839 Oh yeah, one thing I did want to ask you about, 398 00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:02.079 you know, just real quick and it's kind of guess, 399 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:05.359 like a random question. I try to ask some people 400 00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:08.880 that are into a flame or Crowley and this question 401 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.200