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<v Speaker 1>Hey everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Tony Edward and I'm Amanda Warcraft.

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<v Speaker 1>And we're recording at the Salona Policy Summit today and

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<v Speaker 1>joining us is Miller white House Levine, who is the

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<v Speaker 1>CEO of the Salona Policy Institute.

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<v Speaker 2>Miller, great to have you. Thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Miller told spit about yourself and what led to the

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<v Speaker 1>founding of the Salona Policy Institute.

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<v Speaker 2>A bit of a long story.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll try to keep it brief, but I originally got

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<v Speaker 3>interested into crypto for I would say ideological reasons. So

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<v Speaker 3>I was living in China twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen. I

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<v Speaker 3>was very young, and it was a you know, I think,

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<v Speaker 3>a formative moment in my life. And at the time,

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<v Speaker 3>living in China, it felt very different than living in

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<v Speaker 3>southern California, Los Angeles from a political perspective, like you

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<v Speaker 3>can really feel the presence of the government there and

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<v Speaker 3>I think a way that at least was not the

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<v Speaker 3>same in the United States at the time twenty thirteen,

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<v Speaker 3>twenty fourteen. So at the same time, these crazy expats

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<v Speaker 3>in Beijing like you should think about this crypto called bitcoin,

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<v Speaker 3>and I was like, oh, what's that? And it really

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<v Speaker 3>grabbed me I think the idea that a technology can

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<v Speaker 3>empower individuals via v institutions, be them businesses or governments,

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<v Speaker 3>is a really powerful one and I think an outlier

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<v Speaker 3>in the history of technological development over the last fifty years, honestly,

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<v Speaker 3>So I think it's decentralization based on public blockchains is

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<v Speaker 3>a very potent concept, and I think force in the

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<v Speaker 3>world for individual empowerment. So that's why I originally got interested.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm too stupid to be an engineer, so I have

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<v Speaker 3>to do something less big brain, which is what brought

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<v Speaker 3>me to policy work. So after college started working at

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<v Speaker 3>the Blockchain Association for Kristen Smith, my current colleague then

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<v Speaker 3>was that an organization called the DeFi Education Fund, which

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<v Speaker 3>was really focused on DeFi specific and DeFi developer issues.

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<v Speaker 3>And then last year, you know, we saw in my view,

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<v Speaker 3>a vacuum and a need for ecosystem advocacy, not because

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<v Speaker 3>of any anyone's like out to get Solona or any

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<v Speaker 3>other ecosystem, but because policy decisions have to be based

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<v Speaker 3>on technological understanding, and if that doesn't exist, you can,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, things can go hey wire quickly. So we

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<v Speaker 3>set up SBI to get after that problem and try

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<v Speaker 3>to get you know, the good news about Salon out

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<v Speaker 3>to policymakers around the world and about a year and now,

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<v Speaker 3>can you give.

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<v Speaker 4>Us the status of where things stand with those Salona

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<v Speaker 4>spot ETFs. I know you were on Crypto and America

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<v Speaker 4>not too long ago and you had mentioned the paperwork

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<v Speaker 4>was filed that you definitely wanted to involve staking as

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<v Speaker 4>part of that. But we're I know, there's kind of

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<v Speaker 4>nuance and how because the SEC is pushing back on

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<v Speaker 4>yielding as part of that launching these these ETFs, So

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<v Speaker 4>where where do where do you stand with that? With

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<v Speaker 4>the regulatory framework.

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<v Speaker 2>Being what it is.

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<v Speaker 3>So these spotytvs are already live, which is great news,

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<v Speaker 3>and those launched in October. So I think that was

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<v Speaker 3>the big, the big threshold the moment. And now there

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<v Speaker 3>are specific issues around staking and how to treat that

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<v Speaker 3>really for tax purposes is the big one within ETP products.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think, you know, it gets complicated quickly, but

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<v Speaker 3>they're like weird tax rules that need to be resolved

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<v Speaker 3>such that ETPs can pass staking rewards back to their

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<v Speaker 3>holders without it creating an insane tax burden. So I

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<v Speaker 3>think that you know, it's it's kind of makes sense,

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<v Speaker 3>Like it's not really a controversial policy change. It just

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<v Speaker 3>has to get done by IRS to make it work.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think that'll ab and it just you know,

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<v Speaker 3>isn't super controversial. It's just very complicated on the tax side.

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<v Speaker 3>And some of these things you have to think through

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<v Speaker 3>the implications outside of crypto, like, okay, if we ask

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<v Speaker 3>aaking rewards within ETPs, what's that gonna you know, unleash

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<v Speaker 3>in traditional markets. I don't think they're those issues. So

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<v Speaker 3>it's it seems like we're right on the CUSP. But yes,

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<v Speaker 3>they did launch in October I believe, and it might

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<v Speaker 3>have been September, but have have been training since and

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<v Speaker 3>I think they're about eleven or twelve.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, how's the Salona Policy Institute engaging with the SEC

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<v Speaker 1>and the CFTC to get rule making and things along

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<v Speaker 1>those lines.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, so rule making is important, Like the agencies can

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<v Speaker 3>do a ton. There's a lot of focus on Congress

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<v Speaker 3>and you know, Lord Willing, the Clarity Act will pass

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<v Speaker 3>and we will not have to do you know, a

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<v Speaker 3>ninth and tenth year of market structure debates because I'm

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<v Speaker 3>sick of sick of them at this point. But there's

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<v Speaker 3>a whole host of stuff that the SEC and CFTC

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<v Speaker 3>are already working on that are squarely within their own authority.

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<v Speaker 3>The two big ones that we've been focused or I

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<v Speaker 3>suppose the efforts at CFTC and SEC we've been focused

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<v Speaker 3>on I collectively refer to as the innovation exemptions. So

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<v Speaker 3>on the SEC side, there was a big development this

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<v Speaker 3>morning that's somewhat related, so it's good timing. But the

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<v Speaker 3>vision is we have these amazing public blockchains that allow

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<v Speaker 3>anyone in the world to participate in these markets, and

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<v Speaker 3>any asset in the world should be able to be

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<v Speaker 3>traded and purchased and used on these blockchains. That's inclusive

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<v Speaker 3>of securities, tokenized securities, be it Apple stock or you know,

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<v Speaker 3>Miller wants to issue debt in Miller Inc.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, what have you, You should be able to

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<v Speaker 2>do it.

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<v Speaker 3>So the idea is the SEC needs to make that

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<v Speaker 3>possible by tweaking their regulatory framework. So how can you,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, have a stock tokenized stock in your cell

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<v Speaker 3>posted ballet. How can you then go and use a

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<v Speaker 3>DeFi protocol to trade it on a peer to peer

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<v Speaker 3>basis with a counterparty? How does that fit within the

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<v Speaker 3>existing regulatory regime. It looks a lot different than how

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<v Speaker 3>trading happens on the New York Stock Exchange today, and

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<v Speaker 3>so that's what the SEC is working through and on

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<v Speaker 3>front ends, they answered a lot of those questions this

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<v Speaker 3>morning under what conditions that is possible, so you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they're really getting after it. So that's on the one

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<v Speaker 3>side at the SEC, and we're hoping to do the

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<v Speaker 3>same at the CFTC for on chain derivatives markets. Today,

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<v Speaker 3>to trade derivatives on chain, you have to be an

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<v Speaker 3>x US person, not not in the United States, and

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<v Speaker 3>that shouldn't be the case. The CFTC wants to create

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<v Speaker 3>a pathway to compliance such that if you want to

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<v Speaker 3>go ahead and you know, trade derivatives or purchase derivatives

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<v Speaker 3>on chain, you can do so alongside your traditional intermediaries

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<v Speaker 3>or you know, centralized intermediaries. I think the SEC and

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<v Speaker 3>CFTC are committed to giving consumers choice and they can

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<v Speaker 3>engage with these products and use them in whichever way

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<v Speaker 3>they're most comfortable. So those are the two big initiatives,

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<v Speaker 3>you know. I think the SEC is on the brink

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<v Speaker 3>of releasing this hopefully before before May. But we'll see CFTC.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, they're really just getting getting started since cher

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<v Speaker 3>Sealy was confirmed in December, So I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>have a bit more time to a bit more would

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<v Speaker 3>to chop, so to speak, but I think we'll move expeditiously.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's you know, I have to pinch myself every

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<v Speaker 3>time I talk about this because imagine like eighteen months

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<v Speaker 3>talking about the SEC allowing US equities trading in in DeFi,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know someone would laugh at you, if not

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<v Speaker 3>just you know, shoot you on the spot.

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<v Speaker 4>From where you sit. Where does Salona benefit from this

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<v Speaker 4>new regulatory framework compared to other blockchains?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you know why I started using Solana and got

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<v Speaker 3>interested in it, It's because it's fast and cheap. Like,

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<v Speaker 3>as an individual, I'm not sending or engaging in transactions

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<v Speaker 3>that are tens of thousands of dollars, and so a

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<v Speaker 3>two dollars gas fee or a three dollars gas fee

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<v Speaker 3>really mattered to me as an individual DeFi user, and Solona,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, seeks to solve that problem by creating a

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<v Speaker 3>super fast, super high bandwidth blockchain that anyone can use

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<v Speaker 3>for fractions of So that's why I should are using Solana.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think, you know, my thesis is not that

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<v Speaker 3>any of these regulations ultimately benefit Solana in a way

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<v Speaker 3>that is not in the interests of like another ecosystem.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think Solana wins on its competitive advantages via

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<v Speaker 3>VI these other chains for the same reasons that you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I chose to be using it. So I think that

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<v Speaker 3>as all of these new businesses and investors are able

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<v Speaker 3>to operate on chain, they will come to a similar conclusion,

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<v Speaker 3>which will of course be good for Solana.

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<v Speaker 2>Miller Claritiac.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that passes this year or are we

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<v Speaker 1>heading into twenty twenty seven.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's going to pass this year.

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<v Speaker 3>I have never been more hopeful, and I you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I know, I've this is my first time on the podcast,

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<v Speaker 3>but that has not been my view over the last

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<v Speaker 3>eighteen months. I was a bit more skeptical than most,

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<v Speaker 3>but I've had a change of heart and it really

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<v Speaker 3>does feel like the momentums there, all the pieces are

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<v Speaker 3>in place. As Patrick Wick just mentioned on stage, it's

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<v Speaker 3>you know, a list of fifteen critical issues has been

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<v Speaker 3>welled down to two or three critical issues. I didn't

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<v Speaker 3>think we were going to get through you know, ten

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<v Speaker 3>of those fifteen. So I haven't proven wrong, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think the momentums there, it's the right time, so I hope,

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<v Speaker 3>I hope it gets done.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be awesome too.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Millard, thank you so much for your time. It

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<v Speaker 4>was great having you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having measure. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for tuning in. Please hit the like

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<v Speaker 1>button subscribe if you haven't as yet. If you're listening

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<v Speaker 1>on a podcast platform such as Spotify or Apple, please

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<v Speaker 1>follow and leave a five star rating. Thank you so much,