1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,880 Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,880 I'm Bill Thomas, and we are back for another ask 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,759 Us Anything episode. This is going to be ask Us Anything, 16 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:55,280 Part two. We are covering questions sent in by our 17 00:00:55,359 --> 00:00:58,880 various listeners. We're going to cover a series of questions 18 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,399 from our listener and top fan, Robert William. He asks 19 00:01:03,479 --> 00:01:06,560 us wonderful, thoughtful questions. Every time we haven't Asked Us 20 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:10,439 Anything episode. We noticed that some of his questions covered 21 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,120 a particular theme which is of importance to us here 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,879 in the month of October. So I'm going to be 23 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,280 posing some questions to Bill as related to Kathy and 24 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,079 Becky's cases, and we're going to see how many Bill 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,760 can answer. So the first question that Robert asks, and actually, 26 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,599 I don't think I know the answer to this one, 27 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,840 so this will be interesting. Robert asks, were Kathy and 28 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:37,680 Becky's fingernails clipped and examined for evidence? If so, is 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,760 that evidence still being stored and could it be examined 30 00:01:40,799 --> 00:01:42,480 for perpetrator DNA? 31 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 2: Robert, I think you've heard me say before that getting 32 00:01:46,079 --> 00:01:49,840 a straight answer out of the FBI is exceptionally difficult. Now, 33 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,519 my level of detail is greater in Kathy's part of 34 00:01:54,519 --> 00:01:57,640 the case because I have her autopsy reports. I don't 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,480 have Becky's autop two report. I could probably get it 36 00:02:00,519 --> 00:02:03,680 from the Dawski family. But I think the answers I 37 00:02:03,799 --> 00:02:07,920 provide for Kathy probably applied just as well to Becky. 38 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,759 I'm always offering these answers with asterisks attached because it 39 00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,000 is so hard to get a straight answer out of 40 00:02:16,039 --> 00:02:18,879 the FBI. They just refuse to answer questions in a 41 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,080 straightforward manner, but I can say this definitively. I know 42 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:30,199 that at autopsy Kathy's fingernail clippings were preserved. I believe, 43 00:02:30,879 --> 00:02:34,639 underline belief, that they've been tested for DNA because they've 44 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,280 gone back and tested and retested. Just a reminder for everybody, 45 00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:42,919 this case originates in nineteen eighty six. This is before 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,039 DNA is being used in a forensic capacity, So it's 47 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,159 basically DNA exists, but it's not being used in a 48 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:55,240 law enforcement application. I know that they have looked for 49 00:02:55,719 --> 00:02:59,960 DNA from under Kathy's fingernails. I have been told by 50 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:03,960 FBI agents and experts have worked the Colonial Parkway murders 51 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,520 that Kathy struggled with her killer and that they would 52 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:11,560 have looked for DNA under her fingernails. I know that 53 00:03:11,879 --> 00:03:15,680 her fingernails were clipped and preserved, and I know they've 54 00:03:15,759 --> 00:03:19,319 looked for DNA when the last time that was These 55 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,599 are all questions I still want to know the answers 56 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,240 to I can't say because they won't tell me, but 57 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:27,960 I know that they have looked for evidence of that type. 58 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,560 I would imagine the same goes for Rebecca Dowski again, 59 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,080 I'm not a lawyer, but I know sometimes I start 60 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,000 to sound like this could be true, but that could 61 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,000 be true. All I can tell you is what I 62 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,280 know definitively, and that what I believe to be true. 63 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:44,960 But I believe the answers I gave for Kathy would 64 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:47,719 also apply to Rebecca Dowski, her girlfriend. 65 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,719 Speaker 3: And then let's just make sure for anybody who may 66 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:52,400 still be trying to catch up a little bit on 67 00:03:52,479 --> 00:03:55,400 the case. When it comes to physical evidence from Kathy 68 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,199 and Becky, you've given an answer about fingernails. We also know, 69 00:03:59,599 --> 00:04:03,400 based on a response from last ask us anything, that 70 00:04:03,479 --> 00:04:06,360 Kathy and Becky's rape kits were burned as medical waste 71 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:10,520 at the FBI's ordering several years back. Bill shaking his head, 72 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,039 what else do we know of from the car or 73 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,160 from Kathy and Becky themselves? Has been tested. 74 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: Real hard to give a definitive answer, because I've been 75 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,319 asking questions for decades. Based on what they've told me, 76 00:04:25,639 --> 00:04:30,879 I believe that they have preserved the interior parts of 77 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:36,439 the car, things like floor mats, carpets, samples from the 78 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,680 seats in my sister's Honda Civic, which were like a 79 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,639 tan fabric, A lot of those items have been preserved. 80 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:50,319 And obviously clothing and other items from the car have 81 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,519 been preserved over the years, so there's a fair amount 82 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,360 of evidence. And as recently as a couple of years ago, 83 00:04:57,399 --> 00:05:01,079 they were going back and retesting some of the articles 84 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,759 of clothing and the interior parts of the car. Remember 85 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,959 they were specifically looking at the floor mats again, things 86 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:08,920 like that. So they seem to have hung on to 87 00:05:09,319 --> 00:05:12,519 a fair amount of the interior of the car. Now, 88 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,560 by the way, these cars, there's four vehicles in the 89 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,720 four double homicides and the Colonial Park by murders. To 90 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,120 my knowledge, none of those vehicles were preserved, and to 91 00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:24,800 be fair, I'm not sure that the FBI or the 92 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,000 Virginia State Police would have even the storage capacity sure 93 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,680 to hang on to a car for more than thirty years. 94 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:36,680 A fair amount of interior parts and trim from my 95 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,160 sister's Honda Civic have been preserved. 96 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,199 Speaker 3: And just as a reminder for other people, can you 97 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,360 tell us what Kathy was wearing that would have been tested. 98 00:05:45,639 --> 00:05:49,079 Speaker 2: Kathy was wearing at the time of their homicide. She 99 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:54,920 is wearing a white cotton BASF jersey. I worked for BASF. 100 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,360 I gave Kathy that white cotton jersey. 101 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: What does it stand for? 102 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,759 Speaker 2: Oh? About a sh analysts and soda fabric. It's a 103 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:09,519 German chemical company. They're most famously known for inventing recording tape. 104 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,720 They invented okay, which is why I worked for them 105 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,800 when they were making cassettes in the eighties. And then 106 00:06:15,879 --> 00:06:19,959 Kathy had long black track pants she was an athlete 107 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,560 and running shoes. And then Becky was wearing. 108 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,439 Speaker 3: It with shorts and a red wind breaker. 109 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, like running short. It was warm enough in October 110 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,759 that she would have been comfortable wearing shorts and this 111 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,720 red wind breaker. And I bet there's something on under 112 00:06:36,759 --> 00:06:39,920 the windbreaker, but I'm not sure from the photographs that 113 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,319 I've seen exactly what that would be. I would imagine 114 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:44,560 it would be like a T shirt or a top. Yeah. 115 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 3: And because people are going to ask, do we know 116 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:50,480 the status of the rope around her neck? And do 117 00:06:50,519 --> 00:06:51,720 we know the status of the hair? 118 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: Again, it's sounding like a broken record here. Getting straight 119 00:06:55,759 --> 00:06:59,920 answers from the FBI is very difficult. We've gone round 120 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,839 and round on the hair in my sister's hand at autopsy. 121 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,879 One point I exploded in dealing with our former case 122 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,319 agent and said, you guys can't even keep your fin 123 00:07:10,439 --> 00:07:13,000 lies straight. I didn't say f and I used the 124 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,680 full strength word. And I'm not proud of myself. My 125 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,199 mom would not be proud of me for losing my temper. 126 00:07:18,279 --> 00:07:22,759 But it's just so exasperating to not get straight answers. 127 00:07:23,319 --> 00:07:25,920 The hair in my sister's hands has turned into like 128 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,279 this bizarre political football between me and the FBI, where 129 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:33,639 they keep changing their story about what the status is 130 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,959 on the hair and my sisters. Their most recent position, 131 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,279 which is absurd in the extreme, is that there is 132 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,920 no hair now. About five years ago, I was introduced 133 00:07:46,959 --> 00:07:50,680 to a man named Ed Green, and doctor Ed Green 134 00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:56,399 is one of the most advanced forensic scientists in the country. 135 00:07:56,439 --> 00:07:58,879 He runs a lab out of Santa Cruz, California, where 136 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,600 he's a professor, called Astraya And you might read about 137 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,639 Astraya Labs because Ed Green and his team, including Kelly 138 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,959 Harkins Kincaid, who's his number two person. I've spoken to 139 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,480 both people at some length, developed a technique to extract 140 00:08:13,759 --> 00:08:18,160 DNA from the shaft of hair, which is highly innovative. 141 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,399 For many years, the only way you could extract DNA 142 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,680 from hair was if you were lucky enough to have 143 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,759 a piece of hair that had the root ball, that 144 00:08:26,879 --> 00:08:30,720 little round kind of soft white tissue that is sometimes 145 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,080 attached to hair, but hair itself is actually dead material. 146 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,919 More or less. Ed developed a technique to extract DNA 147 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:43,039 from the shaft of the hair, which was incredibly innovative. 148 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,639 He works very closely with the FBI and they've solved 149 00:08:45,639 --> 00:08:50,759 a number of cases with this Astraya Labs technique. Now, 150 00:08:50,799 --> 00:08:53,480 about five years ago, when the Golden State killer case 151 00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:57,279 had broken, and I'm always reaching out to people and 152 00:08:57,399 --> 00:09:00,559 introducing myself, I had the same conversation every time about 153 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,759 who I am, and I'm hoping to learn more from 154 00:09:02,799 --> 00:09:05,759 them about the techniques they're using, because I'm always hoping 155 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,000 to find new techniques that might help us move the 156 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,360 Colonial Parkway murders forward. When I talked to Ed Green, 157 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:14,279 he told me he would be happy to test the 158 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,480 hair in my sister's hand or any other evidence for us, 159 00:09:17,799 --> 00:09:20,679 and I spoke to our case agent and our case 160 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,159 agent keepping Mind. This is the same case agent who 161 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,039 later maintained there was no hair. She spoke to Ed 162 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,279 Green and then she refused to confirm that they'd had 163 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:32,639 a conversation. But of course I circle back with doctor 164 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,440 Green and I asked him and he said, yes, we 165 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,679 spoke for over an hour. He's not going to tell 166 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,080 me what they discussed because he has to keep his 167 00:09:40,159 --> 00:09:43,960 confidences and the FBI of the responsible agency, but he 168 00:09:44,039 --> 00:09:47,000 did confirm that they spoke for over an hour. Now, 169 00:09:47,039 --> 00:09:50,600 if there's no hair, why would the case agent be 170 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,559 wasting her time and doctor Green's time on discussing hair 171 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:00,240 that doesn't exist. I'm sorry that doesn't wash. It never did. 172 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:03,200 I don't know why they can't tell me what the 173 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,480 status of the hair testing is. But I know for 174 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,559 a fact they spoke to Astraya about this, and like 175 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,200 I said, it's probably five years ago. Now. I've spoken 176 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,879 to doctor Green since and he maintains he spoke to 177 00:10:15,919 --> 00:10:18,039 the FBI about the hair and he said he'd be 178 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:21,320 happy to test the hair. I don't know what the 179 00:10:21,399 --> 00:10:24,600 status is, and I recognize I probably selling an idiot 180 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,600 no that I can't get a straight answer to the 181 00:10:27,639 --> 00:10:31,759 most basic questions I can think of. There's an example. 182 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: Now, you sound like someone who's been stonewalled by the 183 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,200 FBI for years, which is not your fault. The second question, 184 00:10:38,279 --> 00:10:41,000 did Kathy or Becky have a journal, a notebook, or 185 00:10:41,039 --> 00:10:43,960 a calendar that documented their lives and behaviors close to 186 00:10:44,039 --> 00:10:45,799 the time of their murders. 187 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: Not that I'm aware of now. I do remember right 188 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,639 after Kathy and Becky died, remember the rest of the 189 00:10:51,639 --> 00:10:55,200 Colonial Parkway murders haven't happened yet. I remember the FBI 190 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,360 went to my sister's apartment and they went through everything 191 00:10:59,519 --> 00:11:01,639 in her part, which we were fine with. And I 192 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,720 remember right at the very beginning of the case they 193 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,639 were reaching out to my family, and I remember one 194 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,039 of the things the FBI agent said was, the girl 195 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:15,720 is gay, meaning Kathy, and the parents know that she's gay, 196 00:11:15,919 --> 00:11:18,360 so there's not going to be any surprise. For instance, 197 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:23,480 Rebecca Dowski was in her probably first romantic relationship with 198 00:11:23,519 --> 00:11:26,600 a woman, my sister. My sister was in her probably 199 00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:30,639 second romantic relationship. She had been involved with a shipmate 200 00:11:30,759 --> 00:11:34,200 aboard the Ussly Spear and they broke up, and then 201 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:40,679 she ended up dating Becky. They went through every single letter, postcard, 202 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,440 birthday card, you name it now, very Kathy Thomas. She 203 00:11:44,519 --> 00:11:51,159 had organized everything in these plastic boxes, probably by date. 204 00:11:51,799 --> 00:11:55,679 Knowing Kathy, so they read everything. They read all of 205 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,240 her letters, all of her cards, etc. I've never heard 206 00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:02,440 about a journal or anything like that. Robert, it's a 207 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:06,399 great question. Again, I know more of the details of 208 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:11,759 Kathy's situation than I do Becky's. I've seen letters that 209 00:12:11,919 --> 00:12:15,519 Kathy wrote to her friend Dab and others, which were 210 00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:20,200 also provided to law enforcement, because obviously, anything we as 211 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:23,960 family and friends can provide from Kathy, Becky or any 212 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,720 of the victims is something that could be important because 213 00:12:27,759 --> 00:12:30,799 it might highlight something about what was going on in 214 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:34,519 their lives. I'm not aware of a journal or a 215 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,279 calendar or anything like that in terms of what Kathy 216 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:39,639 and Becky were doing. 217 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,759 Speaker 3: I actually have copies of those letters that you were 218 00:12:42,799 --> 00:12:46,240 talking about. One of her friends provided, and I remember 219 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,600 just looking at those letters, and her handwriting is so 220 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:54,200 neat and so beautiful. But she's got these she's got 221 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,440 these wonderful little asides that she puts in here. Look 222 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,519 at the bottom of it. There's one that says smile 223 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,120 at least once every twelve hours. And she has another 224 00:13:04,159 --> 00:13:07,919 one that's labeled April thirtieth, nineteen eighty six, and then 225 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,200 it says so short I can walk under doors. And 226 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,039 that's my favorite one is it's a joke. Here we 227 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,279 go at the bottom this one. It says, joke of 228 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,200 the week, What were Krista mccaulliff's last word? What's this 229 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,399 button for? And then she says, don't laugh, it's sick. 230 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: Remind everybody who Christa mccauliffe was. 231 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,799 Speaker 3: She was, She was on the Challenger. She was actually 232 00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:33,080 one of the first school teachers to ever go up 233 00:13:33,159 --> 00:13:37,639 in the Space Shuttle, and unfortunately she did not survive. 234 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: And I hope no one takes that joke to mean 235 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,360 that Kathy was mean spirited or cold hair. 236 00:13:42,519 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 3: No, she she absolutely was not. It's just I'm looking 237 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,279 at her writing and it looks so upbeat. She ends 238 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,399 all of her letters with smile. Kathy, I just I 239 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,039 never knew her. I wish I could know her. I 240 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,600 feel like I know her a little bit through you. 241 00:13:57,759 --> 00:13:59,679 But boy, you just get a sense of one of 242 00:13:59,759 --> 00:14:03,799 my facious person she must have been through those letters, 243 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,039 and so even just that little tiny bit that I have, 244 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,240 she just must have been a hell of a person. 245 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,399 Speaker 2: Bill. Oh, she was a hoot, no question about it, 246 00:14:12,639 --> 00:14:15,240 and she was very big. We've talked about this before 247 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,559 at the Naval Academy and when she was in the fleet, 248 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:22,320 and for instance, her friend Deb is also a naval officer, 249 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,200 acknowledging the challenges that this group of women who were 250 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,720 incredible innovators and were in the Navy and the other 251 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:35,600 branches of the service at a time when they were 252 00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:40,600 really made to feel terribly unwelcome. It was awful how 253 00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:44,120 much harassment they put up with. But Kathy was known 254 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,399 at the Naval Academy and in the Fleet as the 255 00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:51,600 kind of person that would buck up her fellow service personnel. 256 00:14:51,919 --> 00:14:54,639 She used to have this expression at the Naval Academy. 257 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:58,360 She'd say, suck it up, buttercup, and it was designed 258 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,240 to just make you laugh, acknowledge the absurdity of the 259 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,519 extreme harassment that they suffered, and she'd keep bucking up 260 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,279 her male and female classmates, especially the women that she 261 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:10,840 served with. 262 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:13,399 Speaker 3: I don't think i've ever asked you this. Did she 263 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,159 ever have nicknames for you or Richard or Jack? As 264 00:15:17,159 --> 00:15:19,600 her older brothers, she must have had some sort of 265 00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:20,480 nickname for you. 266 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: I know nothing that I recall, but then again, maybe 267 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,120 it's something that she never said in front of us. 268 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:30,639 Now I think we were pretty good, big brothers, and 269 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:33,159 we were very supportive of her, So I don't think 270 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,159 she would say anything too terrible, but nothing that I'm 271 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,279 aware of. I'll ask my brother Jack the next time 272 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:38,919 I talked to him. 273 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:41,559 Speaker 3: You guys got along fairly well as siblings. 274 00:15:41,559 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, very much. And of course we talked 275 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,159 about my older brother Richard just died in August and 276 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,639 we're having his memorial service October eleventh in Annapolis, and 277 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,600 so that'll be a little bit of a family reunion 278 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,720 of the four original kids of my family. Now we've 279 00:15:57,759 --> 00:16:00,960 all lost my older brother on the second oldiced than 280 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,200 my brother Jack, and then of course my sister Kathy. 281 00:16:03,399 --> 00:16:05,759 Of course we discovered we had a half sibling you 282 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,159 never knew anything about until a few years ago. That's 283 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,039 a conversation for another day. 284 00:16:12,799 --> 00:16:15,679 Speaker 3: The next question in relation to Kathy and Becky, were 285 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,799 there any receipts in the car that would have indicated 286 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,320 where Kathy and Becky may have bought food or any 287 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,080 other items in the time leading up to their murder, 288 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,639 which is an excellent question. 289 00:16:26,279 --> 00:16:29,639 Speaker 2: There's a couple of pieces of paper that are very interesting. 290 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,639 One is a game card from McDonald's and it's got 291 00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:39,960 the Washington Redskins on it. One strong possibility is that 292 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,320 when Kathy and Becky left the campus at William and Mary, 293 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,039 they were supposedly spinning off to go get something to eat, 294 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,720 and your evening dining options in Williamsburg were a lot 295 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:53,399 more limited back then. 296 00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:56,759 Speaker 3: Yes they were, so they're still kind of limited now 297 00:16:56,879 --> 00:16:57,759 to be real about it. 298 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,279 Speaker 2: But even much more so in nineteen eighty. Oh totally 299 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,240 a couple of possibilities that have been raised. Because they 300 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:12,240 found hamburger and shredded lettuce in their systems at autopsy, 301 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,960 they thought they might have gone to McDonald's or something 302 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,200 along those lines. Tacos Taco Bell mentioned as a possibility, 303 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,160 and of course the Yorktown Pub. There were unconfirmed reports 304 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,839 that two women were seen at the Yorktown Pub. That 305 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:32,079 would be a place you could go and get a burger. Yeah, 306 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,640 so those are all possibilities. The other interesting piece of 307 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:40,799 paper that I mentioned beyond the game card from McDonald's 308 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:46,279 was a flyer for a church. That one's a little 309 00:17:46,279 --> 00:17:50,680 bit odd because Kathy wasn't terribly religious and it doesn't 310 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,960 seem like something that she would have necessarily hung onto. However, 311 00:17:56,319 --> 00:17:59,240 Kathy was very interested in the environment, and so she 312 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,519 was a knee nick. She is definitely not the kind 313 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:05,759 of person that's going to throw a piece of paper, trash, 314 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,359 whatever out the window of her Honda Civic. So, for example, 315 00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:14,640 if someone was flyering the parking lot at William and 316 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,519 Mary with let's say a flyer for a church service, 317 00:18:20,039 --> 00:18:22,400 that could easily be the kind of thing she might 318 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,400 have put behind her seat on the floor of the 319 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,319 Honda with an eye towards I'll throw that away when 320 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,680 I'm near a trash can or a recycling bin. But 321 00:18:31,759 --> 00:18:35,279 she definitely wouldn't have left it under her windshield flapping, 322 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,119 and she wouldn't have thrown it out the window. So 323 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,400 those are two things that are in the car. They're 324 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,200 visible in the crime scene photos, which of course I've seen. 325 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,680 I wish I hadn't seen them. Yeah, those two pieces 326 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,039 of paper definitely jump out. This church flyer and this 327 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:53,960 game card from McDonald's. 328 00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:57,559 Speaker 3: Was the car dusted for fingerprints? And if so, have 329 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,319 the fingerprints been cross referenced with will fingerprints? 330 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,039 Speaker 2: Okay I did. I'm going to sound like a broken record. 331 00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:09,559 I know the car was fingerprinted. I know there were 332 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,240 one hundred and fifty full and partial prints found inside 333 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:16,680 and outside the car, and I know they would run 334 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,400 through what they call the Aphis system. Now, were they 335 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,880 ever checked against Wilmer's fingerprints? Boy, would I like to 336 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,519 know why? I've asked, Yes, I can't get a straight 337 00:19:27,599 --> 00:19:28,559 answer from the FBI. 338 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: Yes, but they did fingerprint you, Richard and Jack to 339 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,559 exclude you from those prints in the car. 340 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 2: Current, I don't think they ever have. They took our 341 00:19:39,599 --> 00:19:45,960 DNA In about two thousand and sixteen, they took our DNA. 342 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,039 They came to my office in Los Angeles and they 343 00:19:50,319 --> 00:19:52,720 met with my brother Jack in New York and my 344 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,680 older brother Richard at his office in Washington, d C. 345 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:02,720 So obviously they had something to check that against, and 346 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,160 they wanted to use our DNA for elimination purposes. They 347 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,160 were testing items inside the car, So you know, you 348 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,279 can draw certain conclusions here. This is twenty sixteen. DNA 349 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,759 has heated up tremendously from where we were in nineteen 350 00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:21,759 eighty six. They came and they tested our DNA, and 351 00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:24,000 I actually asked them, will we end up in the 352 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,160 Codis system? And they said no, that you're inside a fence. 353 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,200 That was the expression they used of the colonial Parkway murders, 354 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,480 and what they're looking to do at the time is 355 00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:39,079 test against DNA evidence they found inside the car. But 356 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,400 since the three brothers, especially Jack because he and Kathy 357 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,039 were super close and he used to see her frequently, 358 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,160 and then me, and then to a lesser extent, my 359 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,720 older brother Richard, because he said he didn't remember ever 360 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:54,960 riding in Kathy's car. I remember bombing up and down 361 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,799 the East Coast several times, and my brother Jack many times. 362 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,720 He was going to graduate school at American University in Washington, 363 00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:05,880 d C. And she was at the Naval Academy, So 364 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,559 they would see each other frequently because DC in Annapolis 365 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,519 or I don't know, thirty five miles apart or something 366 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:13,799 like that. He would see her frequently if she had 367 00:21:13,799 --> 00:21:17,599 a free weekend. So obviously, Bill, Jack, and to a 368 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,000 lesser extent Richard's DNA belongs in the car. And what 369 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:25,160 they were trying to do is eliminate DNA sources that 370 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,400 are not offenders. Other people that might have been eliminated. 371 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,440 It would include like the first responders, sure, people like that. 372 00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:38,359 I remember I tracked down. I've done this so many 373 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,799 times I can't even count. I tracked down the first 374 00:21:40,839 --> 00:21:44,240 responders who were there the night that they pulled Kathy's 375 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,680 car off the banks of the York River. I remember 376 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,559 one of them telling me he actually climbed in the 377 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,200 car with the bodies to examine them. You wouldn't do 378 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,759 that now in twenty twenty five, by the forensic standards 379 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:00,319 we have now, But in nineteen eighty six it was 380 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,680 a different world from a forensic perspective. But again, they 381 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,680 were trying to eliminate DNA as often as possible. 382 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: That's so interesting, though, because surely they would have compared 383 00:22:10,759 --> 00:22:14,880 fingerprints for elimination purposes. You would think. I don't know. 384 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 2: They never asked me. They never asked me for mine. Look, 385 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:21,359 I would do anything that helps all these cases. So's 386 00:22:22,039 --> 00:22:24,799 they ever asked me, could we fingerprint you? I would 387 00:22:24,799 --> 00:22:27,680 have said absolutely, But I don't recall them ever doing that. 388 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I figured they would have done it automatically. Now, 389 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,759 because Richard was a medical doctor and also in the service, 390 00:22:33,799 --> 00:22:35,880 would his fingerprints have been in aphis already? 391 00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. This is the kind of question I'd 392 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,759 love to ask Richard, and I can't talk to him. 393 00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:42,880 I don't know a question I've never been able to 394 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,160 get a clear answer on is whether service personnel whether 395 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,640 their DNA is in codis I believe the answer is no. 396 00:22:54,319 --> 00:22:56,920 We have a lot of family in the Navy, and 397 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,759 I know now they take their DNA in case sadly 398 00:23:01,839 --> 00:23:04,960 they're killed in action or whatever, so that their body 399 00:23:05,039 --> 00:23:09,759 can be identified. I've always wanted to know if the 400 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:15,599 service personnel records of DNA are accepted by the Code 401 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,279 of System. I think from what I've been told, they 402 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:22,000 are not. They are separate system. You're listening to Mind 403 00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:24,880 over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from 404 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,640 our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. 405 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 3: This last one, I'm not sure if there's any way 406 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:37,200 to figure this one out in terms of the second 407 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,599 part of what Robert is asking. So the first part 408 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,640 is do we know if Wilmer was right or left handed? 409 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:44,279 Is there any insight into the wounds on Kathy and 410 00:23:44,319 --> 00:23:47,880 Becky that would indicate the perpetrator had a specific dominant hand, 411 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,599 like I'm assuming that means to slash across the throat 412 00:23:51,039 --> 00:23:53,559 and has anybody I'm wondering if anybody has ever looked 413 00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:55,880 at that to try to determine handedness. And whether you 414 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,359 can tell handedness based on links and wits and depths 415 00:23:59,359 --> 00:23:59,839 of cuts. 416 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,559 Speaker 2: I have discussed this with the FBI before, they have 417 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,680 looked at it. To be clear, I don't remember what 418 00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:12,240 they said about handedness left, right hand dominant. It is 419 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,039 something that they've looked at. I'm going to have to 420 00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:17,039 go back and see if I can refresh my memory 421 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,880 if the offender was left handed or right handed. I 422 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,839 know it is something they looked at. Okay, specifically in 423 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,319 Kathy and Becky's case, and then regarding Wilmer's dominant hand, 424 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,599 I'll try to talk to some of his friends from 425 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,319 Lancaster County to see if anybody can tell me. So 426 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,119 I've got some homework to do there. I got to 427 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,920 go back and figure that out and see if there's 428 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,519 any coincidental information there that, like what hand was Wilmer's 429 00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:46,440 dominant hand and what hand was used to cut their throats. 430 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 3: One thing that I want to mention just in closing here, 431 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,960 that has come up over the last couple of days 432 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,680 on our Colonial Parkway murders page, and we want to 433 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,359 make sure that everybody is clear on this. A couple 434 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,799 people had expressed a desire they hope that Wilmer's family 435 00:25:01,799 --> 00:25:05,440 would cooperate with the FBI or we'll talk to us. Yes, 436 00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:07,880 as if there was some sort of implication that they 437 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,640 had not, that could not be any further from the truth. 438 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,519 The Wilmer family has been very helpful and incredibly gracious, 439 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,759 both with the family and with the FBI. If anyone 440 00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:22,799 ever gives an indicator that they have not been cooperative, 441 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,799 we cannot tell you they've been wonderful. They've been very 442 00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:29,519 helpful during what has to be an incredibly stressful and 443 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,839 shocking time for them to learn that your family member 444 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,720 is a serial killer. I cannot even imagine the toll 445 00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:38,480 that takes on you. But they have been wonderful the 446 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:40,599 way that they have stepped up and helped. So we 447 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,759 don't ever want anyone to think that they have not 448 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,039 been helpful or forthcoming. They one hundred percent have been. 449 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 2: Bill. 450 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 3: Do you want to add to that. 451 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,839 Speaker 2: We saw a lot of that, and it's funny different 452 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,920 questions or topics will start to get some heat, and 453 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,759 some people were expressing outrage that the Wilmer family hadn't 454 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:00,400 cooperated with the FBI and the Virginia State Police. And 455 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,160 I can tell you definitively that they have cooperated, and 456 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,319 I can imagine this would be truly shocking to be 457 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,200 told that your father, grandfather, in some examples husbands and 458 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:15,839 husband nex husband is a serial killer. That's got to 459 00:26:15,839 --> 00:26:20,519 be incredibly shocking. We have no problem whatsoever with the 460 00:26:20,559 --> 00:26:24,680 Wilmer family. They have been very cooperative with law enforcement, 461 00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:29,000 and anybody who thinks otherwise doesn't know what's going on 462 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,319 because the family has done everything they can to help, 463 00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:36,039 and we have no bone to pick with any member 464 00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:36,960 of the Wilmer family. 465 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,559 Speaker 3: We don't want anyone to ever think that anyone has 466 00:26:39,559 --> 00:26:42,079 been less than cooperative. The only people who've been less 467 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,480 than cooperative about this investigation are the people who are 468 00:26:45,559 --> 00:26:49,799 investigating it. Everyone who can help us has tried very 469 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,519 hard to help us, and that even includes people recently 470 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,599 who have responded on the Colonial Parkway murders and been 471 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,279 tagging other watermen and saying, hey, did you know this guy? 472 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,519 Are you familiar with him? The fact that we see 473 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:04,480 an outpouring of support and arise in tips after crime 474 00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:09,160 con before holidays, it's astonishing. We love the support from 475 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,000 the community because it does mean so much. It really 476 00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:15,599 could just take one tip to push the investigation in 477 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,880 a new direction. We can't thank everybody enough for the 478 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,039 ways that you are supportive of this case and these families. 479 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: Interesting note, by the way, Keith Wilmer, the older brother 480 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,880 who passed away, I think it's to the end of April, 481 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,559 he actually gave his DNA to law enforcement the day 482 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,240 they came and raided the various Wilmer brothers' homes. He 483 00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:39,559 might have been upset about it, but he did agree 484 00:27:39,559 --> 00:27:42,759 to cooperate, and he gave the same oral swab that 485 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,720 all the Thomas family and Carl Haley Dawski, all the 486 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,160 various family members have done over the years. I have 487 00:27:50,559 --> 00:27:53,759 certainly hinted that I think that Keith Wilmer could have 488 00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:56,759 been involved in the Mary Keyser Harding murder on the 489 00:27:56,839 --> 00:28:00,880 Rappahannock River. At the same time, he gave his willingly 490 00:28:01,079 --> 00:28:03,880 to law enforcement when they came to his homes, so 491 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,279 I can't criticize him for that at least. 492 00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 3: The onus for this investigation now is really on the FBI, 493 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,200 and whether it moves or whether it doesn't is on them. 494 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,440 We have done everything as family members and advocates that 495 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,359 we can do. We're hoping there's still a little bit 496 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,759 of leverage that we have. We're exploring some options on 497 00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:25,559 meetings to have in ways that we can maybe put 498 00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:27,960 a little bit of pressure on the FBI. But honestly, 499 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,559 the case and the solving of it comes right down 500 00:28:30,599 --> 00:28:33,880 to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It is their job 501 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,720 to get to work, get this case solved, and get 502 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,160 Bill to Amos off your speed dial. 503 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: We know I'm off the Christmas card list, So. 504 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: Kat, dammit, I think I am too a shoot. 505 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, okay. 506 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: Robert also asks, I know Wilmer was a bit of 507 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,279 a recluse and a loaner, but did he have close 508 00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:56,920 friends or acquaintances he can fighted in? How about drinking 509 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,279 or fishing buddies, coworkers or employees, talk openly about things 510 00:29:01,279 --> 00:29:04,640 with his spouse, his siblings, his children, other relatives, et cetera. 511 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,160 So what do we know about Wilmer's social life and 512 00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:09,359 family life. 513 00:29:09,599 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: It sounds like Wilmer kind of led two lives. There's 514 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,480 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior as a relatively young man, marrying 515 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,640 his high school sweetheart, having two kids, working as a 516 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,680 waterman up in Lancaster County on the Rappahannock, et cetera. 517 00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:31,759 After they divorce, he ends up shifting his focus to 518 00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:36,200 what would we call that the Tidewater area, Crystal Virginia, 519 00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:40,960 living down in coastal Virginia, sometimes living aboard the Denny Wade, 520 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:43,880 his small fishing boat, which doesn't look like it would 521 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,839 be a very comfortable place to live. He rents a 522 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,240 room from a man named Ricky Blaylock, and it's almost 523 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,599 there's a second part of Wilmer's life that doesn't involve 524 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,319 his ex wife and family up in Lancaster. But then 525 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,079 he has a girlfriend. He's living down in coastal Virginia, 526 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,200 running this room from Ricky Blaylock, and that's around the 527 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,160 time of the Colonial Parkway murders. So family members have 528 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,319 said that it's almost like Alan led two lives. Obviously, 529 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,039 we know for a fact that Wilmer is linked to 530 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:22,240 Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and Teresa Howell, and then is 531 00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:26,279 strongly suspected of being involved in the disappearance of Keith 532 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:30,000 Colincussandra Haley. Further, when you go back to eighty six 533 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:33,240 when Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski are murdered, even from 534 00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:35,759 the very beginning of the case, when the other murders 535 00:30:35,759 --> 00:30:39,119 haven't taken place, the FBI agents told us they were 536 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,640 looking at watermen because of the use of the rope 537 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,200 knives and diesel fuel and the proximity to the York 538 00:30:46,279 --> 00:30:49,359 River where Kathy's Honda Civic was found. So the idea 539 00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:53,279 of a waterman or watermen plural being involved was part 540 00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:57,319 of the mix right from the very beginning. Socially, he 541 00:30:57,519 --> 00:31:01,799 has friends, some of them lifelong friends from junior high 542 00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:04,680 school in high school. He doesn't seem to have confided 543 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,440 in anyone that we have met yet that he was 544 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,319 involved in these murders or anything like that. And he's 545 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,720 not regarded as a violent person or someone that got 546 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,680 in fights or was regarded as dangerous. Some people have 547 00:31:20,839 --> 00:31:24,680 told me, though, that the Wilmer family in general was 548 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,799 a family that you didn't mess with. That he's the 549 00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:30,599 oldest brother. He may have been short and stocky, but 550 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,440 he was very strong, and actually, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior 551 00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:37,519 is actually a fire plug kind of guy, very athletic, 552 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,519 very strong upper body, but he's only like five five 553 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,920 five six. He's little. But Wilmer himself wasn't regarded as violent, 554 00:31:45,039 --> 00:31:47,640 but his family was regarded as a family that you 555 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,079 didn't mess with, and that if you messed with one, 556 00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:52,519 you messed with all of them. I don't think that 557 00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:57,039 makes anybody a murderer. Certainly, Wilmer transitioned over after his 558 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,759 divorce into something pretty dark, definitely linked to three murders 559 00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:05,440 and suspected of involvement in several others. I personally think 560 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,559 if law enforcement, particularly the FBI and the Virginia State Police, 561 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,119 do their job properly, I think Wilmer can be linked 562 00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:15,119 to a number of other murders. Of course, here's another 563 00:32:15,319 --> 00:32:18,559 example of why we need to put Wilmer's DNA into 564 00:32:18,599 --> 00:32:22,119 the CODA system. So far, under Commonwealth of Virginia law, 565 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:24,240 we're not allowed to do that because he's never been 566 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,839 convicted of a crime, and now, of course he's dead. 567 00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:29,759 Speaker 3: And if they would like a list of potential people 568 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:31,799 they think he could be linked to, they should definitely 569 00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:34,759 see us. We have a whole list of people. Another 570 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:38,200 question is, and I think this one's actually really interesting too, 571 00:32:38,839 --> 00:32:42,559 was Wilmer known to use any drugs or be involved 572 00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:45,359 in the drug world, either as a consumer or as 573 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,200 someone involved trying to make money? 574 00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:51,559 Speaker 2: Not that I'm aware of. This is definitely something we've 575 00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:54,440 looked at, and there's always been rumors that group of 576 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,359 Gloucester County Deputy sheriffs might have been involved in the 577 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,079 drug trade. Obviously, there's gun running, smuggling and gun running, drugs, 578 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,319 illegal out of states, cigarettes, booze, all kinds of stuff 579 00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:12,720 for actually hundreds of years, has been shipped into that 580 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,920 part of Virginia on boats and on fishing boats. We've 581 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,839 never found any evidence of Wilmer being involved in anything 582 00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:25,079 like drugs or smuggling or anything like that. There are, 583 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,480 as I said, these odd rumors about the Gloucester County 584 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,519 Sheriff's department, which was apparently highly corrupt in the nineteen eighties, 585 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,440 but I'm not able to connect Wilmer into any of that. 586 00:33:35,799 --> 00:33:38,119 Speaker 3: And then one more, and I think I know where, 587 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,759 I know where Robert's going with us. One did Wilmer 588 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:44,759 ever moonlight or work odd jobs as a bouncer in security? 589 00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:47,400 And I'm thinking in security. We're trying to figure out 590 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,640 is there a connection to liberty security? But what do 591 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,279 we know about Wilmer and various odd jobs he may 592 00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:57,359 have taken beyond the tree cutting, wood chucking, and the 593 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:58,720 rest that we already are aware of. 594 00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:03,119 Speaker 2: Those are the only jobs I'm aware of him holding. Interestingly, 595 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,759 by the way, Wilmer, supposedly as a young man, was 596 00:34:06,839 --> 00:34:10,280 essentially a teetotaler. He didn't drink. His ex wife has 597 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,119 told people that he and she were regarded as like 598 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:18,519 this kind of straight arrow couple, high school sweethearts, married young, 599 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,519 not involved in drugs and alcohol and things like that. 600 00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:26,360 There doesn't seem to be a connection to that kind 601 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,639 of activity in Wilmer's life. At the same time, though, 602 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:34,239 when you look at the Teresa Howell case, she was 603 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:40,079 last seen at the after hours club. She was last 604 00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:43,760 seen at Club Zodiac, the after hours club which was 605 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,159 next to the White Horse, which is a more of 606 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:48,840 a traditional bar and kind a bit of a reputation 607 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,719 as a pickup joint. Now it's possible that Wilmer, who 608 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,880 often hung back in social situations, that he may actually 609 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,280 have been out in the parking lot and then when 610 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,280 he saw an attractive woman who I think was somewhat incapacitated, 611 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,079 he swooped in. I have a hard time believing that 612 00:35:06,159 --> 00:35:09,039 Wilmer is spending all this time in bars and after 613 00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:12,719 hours clubs and not consuming alcohol. I don't see him 614 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,400 as being a teetotaler his whole life, but I'm not 615 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:19,800 aware of him being involved in drugs or anything along 616 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:25,400 those lines. Ron Little and other suspects absolutely be involved 617 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,440 in drugs, meth manufacture, distribution. There's all kinds of stuff 618 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,159 going on with other people that are associated with the 619 00:35:33,199 --> 00:35:36,280 Colonial Parkway murders, But so far, I'm not seeing a 620 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,480 link between Wilmer and smuggling. It wouldn't be the first 621 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:44,519 time that a waterman was involved in drug smuggling and 622 00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:49,960 other transportation of illegal substances, but I'm not seeing that 623 00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:53,840 so far in things I've learned. One disappointing thing we've 624 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,000 learned fairly recently is Kathy and Becky were strangled with 625 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,719 a particular kind of row which is commonly used for 626 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,280 nautical applications, and a small piece I'm gesturing here, but 627 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,159 to my eye, it looks like an inch and a 628 00:36:08,159 --> 00:36:11,880 half piece of rope was left under Kathy's long red 629 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,840 hair embedded in her neck, which had clearly been used 630 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,119 to strangle her. I had made some inquiries a few 631 00:36:18,119 --> 00:36:21,920 months ago. You may recall we were looking into where 632 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,679 that rope might have come from. I tracked down one 633 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,000 of the major suppliers of nautical rope in that area, 634 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,239 and I spoke to the president of the company, who 635 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,719 was a fairly young guy, and it's a family business 636 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,920 his grandfather started at and so I spoke with him. 637 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,360 He interestingly, he follows the Colonial Parkery murders. He's listened 638 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,159 to our podcast. It's a small world. But he went 639 00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:48,639 back and he talked to his father and uncle, who 640 00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:51,360 are still around. They're retired, and they told me something 641 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:55,480 extremely disappointing, which is, in all these years, no one 642 00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:59,039 from the FBI or the Virginia State Police has ever 643 00:36:59,119 --> 00:37:04,280 spoken to them. Weirdly, because both the Wilmer brothers were 644 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,199 customers of theirs and bought supplies from them frequently. They 645 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,559 even knew the two Wilmer brothers, Keith the oldest brother, 646 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,320 Alan the middle brother. Both of them were watermen so 647 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,400 well that they even knew they didn't get along very well. 648 00:37:18,679 --> 00:37:22,119 So they were regular customers for years. And it's profoundly 649 00:37:22,159 --> 00:37:26,840 disappointing to me that I'm asking questions of a supplier 650 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,840 that could have easily provided the rope that was used 651 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,960 to kill Kathy and Becky, and yet I've spoken to them, 652 00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:37,119 tracked them down through two generations, and no one from 653 00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:39,679 the FBI or the Virginia State Police has ever reached 654 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:40,280 out to them. 655 00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 3: How dare you, Bill Thomas? What do you think you 656 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,679 are an investigator or something? Do you think you're an 657 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:46,519 FBI agent? 658 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,199 Speaker 2: Come on now, Hell no would be the appropriate answer. 659 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,079 Speaker 3: But chuse, that's what people in the FBI are sitting 660 00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:57,119 there fulminating about. Who does he think he is? He's 661 00:37:57,159 --> 00:37:59,159 the one doing your job that you should be doing. 662 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,519 Into the FBI analyst listening to this, we hope you're 663 00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:07,119 having a great day not solving this case. Sorry, I'm 664 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:08,840 just feeling a little salty about this. 665 00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:12,679 Speaker 2: I am too, actually, so it is what it is. 666 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 3: Well, by the time the episode comes out, we will 667 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,719 have reached the thirty nine year milestone for Kathy and 668 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,000 Becky's case. As always, I am so sorry for your lost, Bill, 669 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:28,480 for your family's loss. Kathy was a gift to the world, 670 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,320 and Becky was too, And I am so angry that 671 00:38:33,519 --> 00:38:35,800 it has been thirty nine years and there are still 672 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,159 no answers. All of us at Mine Over Murder are 673 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,199 pulling for you, and we hope every single day that 674 00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:43,360 we're going to wake up and this will be the 675 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,639 day that we find answers. Thank you that is going 676 00:38:46,679 --> 00:38:49,440 to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 677 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,000 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 678 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,760 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 679 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,280 Another Dog Productions. 680 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,199 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 681 00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 682 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:16,639 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 683 00:39:17,199 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 684 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,039 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 685 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 686 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,800 Murders on Facebook. 687 00:39:29,519 --> 00:39:32,519 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 688 00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:34,199 Bill Thomas five six. 689 00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.