Speaker 1: Hey, this is Chris with Hacking your Leadership. On today's
Speaker 1: discussion on employee engagement. I want to talk about a
Speaker 1: video that I saw between Adam Grant and Malcolm Gladwell.
Speaker 1: They were on stage talking about what it means to
Speaker 1: apologize when you've done something wrong, and the conversation was,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of took an interesting turn because, you know,
Speaker 1: Gladwell says that he thinks it's important to apologize when
Speaker 1: you've done something wrong, and Adam Grant responds back with,
Speaker 1: there's it matters why an apology is needed first, before
Speaker 1: you can just assume that apologizing is always the right
Speaker 1: thing to do, or that you know that the that
Speaker 1: is interpreted the same way. And he said that apologizing
Speaker 1: for a failure of competence tends to go over well
Speaker 1: because you can always become more competent in something by
Speaker 1: learning more or you know, training more, whatever it takes.
Speaker 1: But apologies for a failure of character tend to not
Speaker 1: go over as well because people don't necessarily believe that
Speaker 1: your character can change. And I like this a lot
Speaker 1: because if you if you think about, you know, the
Speaker 1: examples he gives are, it's it's hard to say I
Speaker 1: apologize for having a lack of integrity, or I apologize
Speaker 1: for not caring about you, you know, things like that.
Speaker 1: If you if you look at you know how that
Speaker 1: works in in you know, kind of a you know,
Speaker 1: cultural zeitgeist right now, if you think about when when
Speaker 1: you know, a famous person gets in trouble for doing something,
Speaker 1: if the general public believes that why they did that
Speaker 1: thing is rooted in their character and not in you know,
Speaker 1: their lack of knowledge on something or their lack of
Speaker 1: ability to do something, then apologizing for it tends to
Speaker 1: make it worse. It tends to you know, prolong the
Speaker 1: amount of time that information is is talked about as
Speaker 1: opposed to you know, having it just go away. And
Speaker 1: so then there's some truth to this. But I think
Speaker 1: it it matters because the last thing that Adam Grant
Speaker 1: says in this video is that the best apology is
Speaker 1: a change in behavior. And I think that's one hundred
Speaker 1: percent true. But can it always happen that way?
Speaker 2: I think it's a great question. And I think as
Speaker 2: you were talking about apologies, I was thinking about like
Speaker 2: all the wrong ways to apologize right right, Like, I'm Chris,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry that you were unable to comprehend the
Speaker 2: work that I was doing right that it made me
Speaker 2: laugh because I think that there's a lot of times
Speaker 2: when you know what, as people, we just don't want
Speaker 2: to apologize, and there's times when we felt that we've
Speaker 2: done nothing wrong, and maybe we've done nothing wrong. I
Speaker 2: think where this becomes something that is a great topic
Speaker 2: to talk about is that when you raise your hand
Speaker 2: to say I want the responsibility of leading people, sometimes
Speaker 2: you have to apologize even when you feel like you
Speaker 2: shouldn't apologize. And that's where it could be something where,
Speaker 2: to your point, an apology can actually not be helpful
Speaker 2: at all. It's one of those things where you have
Speaker 2: to be really conscious of when you've made a mistake
Speaker 2: or when you may have done something, you have to
Speaker 2: own it and you should absolutely apologize. I think there
Speaker 2: are instances that you spoke about where you know, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of times when people will make a mistake
Speaker 2: and I've done this where somebody will do something and
Speaker 2: I'm just like okay, and I was like, all right,
Speaker 2: so that's not how we would want to do that.
Speaker 2: Or let's let's let me walk you through the appropriate
Speaker 2: approach to that conversation. Or the way that we would
Speaker 2: go about doing you know that that process it's something
Speaker 2: like okay, okay, I'm so sorry. I'm like, well, don't apologize.
Speaker 2: I'll tell people like you do. You don't have to
Speaker 2: apologize for not knowing, right right, like like like that's
Speaker 2: that's a different thing. Like like I get that maybe
Speaker 2: this isn't reflective of what you wanted to happen, or
Speaker 2: that you feel a sense of ownership and responsibility here.
Speaker 2: I get all of that, But you don't need to
Speaker 2: apologize for not knowing. That's where as a leader, like, look,
Speaker 2: clearly I should apologize because it had you not had
Speaker 2: the proper training or had you not been given the
Speaker 2: opportunities to know these things, Like we clearly miss something here, right,
Speaker 2: So if there's apology to be owed, it's from me
Speaker 2: as the leader. Right Like again, like there's there's a
Speaker 2: lot to unpack and to have dialogue in there. But
Speaker 2: I love just the idea of understanding that you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was just having this conversation with
Speaker 2: somebody the other day that it literally it hits really
Speaker 2: close to home where I was saying that like enough
Speaker 2: words enough talking about it, enough enough enough either apologizing
Speaker 2: or explaining your process or how you want somebody to feel.
Speaker 2: Just change the behavior. Just just go do the thing,
Speaker 2: like go role model what you want, allow them to
Speaker 2: feel how they're going to feel. And if you're doing
Speaker 2: the behaviors with intention and with authenticity, and you're doing
Speaker 2: your best to make the changes, they will recognize those changes.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Like it's it's such a such an important thing to
Speaker 2: understand how behavior, at the end of the day is
Speaker 2: the ultimate way to show somebody that you have heard
Speaker 2: them and that you are doing something based upon either
Speaker 2: mistakes that you've made or feedback you've been given.
Speaker 1: I think you're spot on with that. It's easier said
Speaker 1: than done, though, So what I want to do is
Speaker 1: I want to go over some of the ways that
Speaker 1: you can do this in the right way so that
Speaker 1: they're not disingenuous and they come off as authentic because
Speaker 1: they are authentic, and that it leads to a change
Speaker 1: in the relationship and not just a rolling of the eyes.
Speaker 1: But first, I want to get up toward from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: All Right, As Adam Grant says, the best apology is
Speaker 1: a change in behavior. So it's important to recognize two
Speaker 1: things one that a change in behavior doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: the words aren't important to so an apology of verbal
Speaker 1: apology is still appropriate in situations where behavioral change is needed.
Speaker 1: It just needs to be followed up with with the
Speaker 1: behavioral change, and so the words themselves. The only way
Speaker 1: to make it a genuine apology is to own it.
Speaker 1: And so there is a difference between I'm sorry you
Speaker 1: felt this way and I'm sorry I made you feel
Speaker 1: this way. I think the reason a lot of people
Speaker 1: want to go with the verbal apology not the change
Speaker 1: in behavior is that it feels more, you know, final
Speaker 1: and immediate. People are always looking for a quick fix
Speaker 1: to things, whereas a behavioral change isn't something that you
Speaker 1: get through over, you know, right away. It takes time.
Speaker 1: And so if you feel like you've wronged somebody and
Speaker 1: that needs to change, we don't want to wait for
Speaker 1: the weeks or months that it takes for that person
Speaker 1: to see a behavioral change, hoping they get over it,
Speaker 1: or hoping that they're not ruminating in, you know, negative
Speaker 1: thoughts about you. You want to go through life without
Speaker 1: people having negative thoughts about you. So that's why the
Speaker 1: words are important. Also, so you start with the words,
Speaker 1: and you make sure that part of the verbal apology
Speaker 1: includes something to the effect of trust me, you will
Speaker 1: see a change in the behavior related to this, and
Speaker 1: I want you to watch for it, and I want
Speaker 1: you to hold me accountable. Those those need to be
Speaker 1: included in an apology because you're asking for that person
Speaker 1: to notice that you have that you truly mean the apology,
Speaker 1: because the actions are backing it up. And then you
Speaker 1: have to go through the behavioral change to make that happen.
Speaker 1: And that will work really well because the person will
Speaker 1: be watching. You'll feel like you got through it in
Speaker 1: the moment. But as long as you realize that you've
Speaker 1: made a promise and now you have to hold to it,
Speaker 1: then things will be fine. If you decide that it's
Speaker 1: just about the change in behavior and you don't need
Speaker 1: the verbal apology, that won't go well because they won't
Speaker 1: be looking for the positive behavioral change. They'll only be
Speaker 1: looking for things to support the thing they already think
Speaker 1: about you, not the things that show that you're a
Speaker 1: changed person. But if you tell them you're sorry and
Speaker 1: you say things are going to change, then every interaction
Speaker 1: that they have with you or that they see you
Speaker 1: have will be rooted in this idea of Okay, does
Speaker 1: this align with the words this person said to me?
Speaker 1: Does this align with their claim that the behavior will
Speaker 1: change and if you do it the right way and
Speaker 1: you have both in place, that change in behavior will
Speaker 1: lead to a developing or a cultivating a positive relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it's great advice. And I also think it's
Speaker 2: important too. It's like, you know, sometimes yeah, we just
Speaker 2: we make a mistake, sometimes make the wrong call. Sometimes
Speaker 2: there is those elements where it's like, you know, I,
Speaker 2: you know, hey, I made this decision, I made this
Speaker 2: you know call, or I had this conversation with someone
Speaker 2: that that led to, uh, you know, some action that
Speaker 2: was taken it and didn't loop you in right, Like hey, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, like we need to own those things like that.
Speaker 2: That's I think where the apology around competence matters a lot,
Speaker 2: you know, And I can say, like, hey, a Chris,
Speaker 2: I just want to start by saying, hey, my bad,
Speaker 2: I apologize, man. You know what I'm saying like, there
Speaker 2: was no intention to cut you out of that decision
Speaker 2: or to make it seem like we were working around
Speaker 2: you on this one. I made a call, we had
Speaker 2: a conversation, we took some action on it. It completely
Speaker 2: like I it just you know, I I I had
Speaker 2: intention to let you know, and I totally forgot to
Speaker 2: make that call and to send you that text, Messa,
Speaker 2: I caught up with something else. But like I own that.
Speaker 2: I'll make sure in the future like it doesn't happen again,
Speaker 2: you know, like like we have to own those mistakes,
Speaker 2: and we have to do it quickly, and we have
Speaker 2: to do it with with authenticity, and we have to
Speaker 2: make sure that we clarify again. I think I think
Speaker 2: there's an important element when you apologize for someone, when
Speaker 2: you can say what you did and then to your
Speaker 2: point earlier, like what you're going to do going forward,
Speaker 2: here is the behavioral change, because I think what it
Speaker 2: also says is like, hey, Chris, I want you to
Speaker 2: hold me accountable for having this behavior, Like I'm putting
Speaker 2: myself out there to say, hey, I apologize for doing this,
Speaker 2: and going forward, this is what I will do to
Speaker 2: not have that happen again, because it adds an element
Speaker 2: of personal accountability to the person that you're apologizing to
Speaker 2: and ownership of knowing that both you owe them an
Speaker 2: apology and you are very clear about what needs to
Speaker 2: change to make sure it doesn't happen again. You know,
Speaker 2: sometimes say hey, sorry about that. I'll you know, I'm
Speaker 2: sure it won't happen again. Like that doesn't doesn't make
Speaker 2: me feel confident, doesn't make me feel like you've thought
Speaker 2: about how this won't happen again in the future type
Speaker 2: of thing. So I think that those things are important
Speaker 2: when you have the conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I also think it's important to know
Speaker 1: from introspection and kind of kind of from a looking
Speaker 1: at yourself from the mirror self awareness standpoint, it's important
Speaker 1: to know exactly why you did something, because otherwise I
Speaker 1: think people can have the tendency to apologize in a
Speaker 1: way that comes off as disingenuous, because sometimes the person
Speaker 1: who you wronged thinks your motivation was one thing when
Speaker 1: it was something else, and you have to be very
Speaker 1: careful not to validate that thought. You need to be
Speaker 1: very careful to make sure that they understand what the
Speaker 1: actual motivation was. And so to give your exact examples
Speaker 1: about not looping somebody in and making a decision, you know,
Speaker 1: you got to be very careful not to say something like, honestly,
Speaker 1: I apologize I didn't think to loop you in, because
Speaker 1: you're apologizing for not having the action. But what you've
Speaker 1: said is you weren't a thought in this process. I
Speaker 1: didn't think about you in this process, and I went
Speaker 1: ahead and made the decision. And so in the future,
Speaker 1: I'll loop you in, not because I think it's important,
Speaker 1: but because it's important to you. And so that's not
Speaker 1: the same thing in all honesty, when you made the decision,
Speaker 1: it probably wasn't that you didn't think to loop them in.
Speaker 1: You probably thought it was important to loop them in,
Speaker 1: and it was a it slipped your mind to follow
Speaker 1: through with it. Oh, I made the decision I need
Speaker 1: to make sure loop this person in, and then I
Speaker 1: got distracted and forgot to send the email and didn't
Speaker 1: remember it till the next day. You know, whatever it was,
Speaker 1: be honest about what happened, even if there's detail and
Speaker 1: nuance and it's a story, because that that changes the
Speaker 1: way people view what your failure was rooted in, and
Speaker 1: it's important that they know that it was a failure
Speaker 1: of competence and not a failure of character. Thank you
Speaker 1: all for joining us on this episode on employee engagement.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week for the next one. You
Speaker 1: have a great day,