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<v Speaker 1>Hey, this is Chris with Hacking your Leadership. On today's

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<v Speaker 1>discussion on employee engagement. I want to talk about a

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<v Speaker 1>video that I saw between Adam Grant and Malcolm Gladwell.

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<v Speaker 1>They were on stage talking about what it means to

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<v Speaker 1>apologize when you've done something wrong, and the conversation was,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, kind of took an interesting turn because, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Gladwell says that he thinks it's important to apologize when

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<v Speaker 1>you've done something wrong, and Adam Grant responds back with,

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<v Speaker 1>there's it matters why an apology is needed first, before

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<v Speaker 1>you can just assume that apologizing is always the right

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<v Speaker 1>thing to do, or that you know that the that

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<v Speaker 1>is interpreted the same way. And he said that apologizing

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<v Speaker 1>for a failure of competence tends to go over well

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<v Speaker 1>because you can always become more competent in something by

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<v Speaker 1>learning more or you know, training more, whatever it takes.

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<v Speaker 1>But apologies for a failure of character tend to not

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<v Speaker 1>go over as well because people don't necessarily believe that

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<v Speaker 1>your character can change. And I like this a lot

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<v Speaker 1>because if you if you think about, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>examples he gives are, it's it's hard to say I

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<v Speaker 1>apologize for having a lack of integrity, or I apologize

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<v Speaker 1>for not caring about you, you know, things like that.

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<v Speaker 1>If you if you look at you know how that

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<v Speaker 1>works in in you know, kind of a you know,

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<v Speaker 1>cultural zeitgeist right now, if you think about when when

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a famous person gets in trouble for doing something,

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<v Speaker 1>if the general public believes that why they did that

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<v Speaker 1>thing is rooted in their character and not in you know,

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<v Speaker 1>their lack of knowledge on something or their lack of

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<v Speaker 1>ability to do something, then apologizing for it tends to

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<v Speaker 1>make it worse. It tends to you know, prolong the

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<v Speaker 1>amount of time that information is is talked about as

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<v Speaker 1>opposed to you know, having it just go away. And

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<v Speaker 1>so then there's some truth to this. But I think

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<v Speaker 1>it it matters because the last thing that Adam Grant

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<v Speaker 1>says in this video is that the best apology is

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<v Speaker 1>a change in behavior. And I think that's one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>percent true. But can it always happen that way?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a great question. And I think as

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<v Speaker 2>you were talking about apologies, I was thinking about like

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<v Speaker 2>all the wrong ways to apologize right right, Like, I'm Chris,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so sorry that you were unable to comprehend the

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<v Speaker 2>work that I was doing right that it made me

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<v Speaker 2>laugh because I think that there's a lot of times

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<v Speaker 2>when you know what, as people, we just don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to apologize, and there's times when we felt that we've

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<v Speaker 2>done nothing wrong, and maybe we've done nothing wrong. I

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<v Speaker 2>think where this becomes something that is a great topic

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about is that when you raise your hand

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<v Speaker 2>to say I want the responsibility of leading people, sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>you have to apologize even when you feel like you

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<v Speaker 2>shouldn't apologize. And that's where it could be something where,

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<v Speaker 2>to your point, an apology can actually not be helpful

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<v Speaker 2>at all. It's one of those things where you have

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<v Speaker 2>to be really conscious of when you've made a mistake

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<v Speaker 2>or when you may have done something, you have to

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<v Speaker 2>own it and you should absolutely apologize. I think there

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<v Speaker 2>are instances that you spoke about where you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of times when people will make a mistake

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<v Speaker 2>and I've done this where somebody will do something and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just like okay, and I was like, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>so that's not how we would want to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Or let's let's let me walk you through the appropriate

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<v Speaker 2>approach to that conversation. Or the way that we would

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<v Speaker 2>go about doing you know that that process it's something

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<v Speaker 2>like okay, okay, I'm so sorry. I'm like, well, don't apologize.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell people like you do. You don't have to

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<v Speaker 2>apologize for not knowing, right right, like like like that's

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<v Speaker 2>that's a different thing. Like like I get that maybe

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't reflective of what you wanted to happen, or

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<v Speaker 2>that you feel a sense of ownership and responsibility here.

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<v Speaker 2>I get all of that, But you don't need to

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<v Speaker 2>apologize for not knowing. That's where as a leader, like, look,

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<v Speaker 2>clearly I should apologize because it had you not had

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<v Speaker 2>the proper training or had you not been given the

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<v Speaker 2>opportunities to know these things, Like we clearly miss something here, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So if there's apology to be owed, it's from me

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<v Speaker 2>as the leader. Right Like again, like there's there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot to unpack and to have dialogue in there. But

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<v Speaker 2>I love just the idea of understanding that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I was just having this conversation with

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<v Speaker 2>somebody the other day that it literally it hits really

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<v Speaker 2>close to home where I was saying that like enough

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<v Speaker 2>words enough talking about it, enough enough enough either apologizing

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<v Speaker 2>or explaining your process or how you want somebody to feel.

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<v Speaker 2>Just change the behavior. Just just go do the thing,

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<v Speaker 2>like go role model what you want, allow them to

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<v Speaker 2>feel how they're going to feel. And if you're doing

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<v Speaker 2>the behaviors with intention and with authenticity, and you're doing

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<v Speaker 2>your best to make the changes, they will recognize those changes.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Like it's it's such a such an important thing to

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<v Speaker 2>understand how behavior, at the end of the day is

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<v Speaker 2>the ultimate way to show somebody that you have heard

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<v Speaker 2>them and that you are doing something based upon either

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<v Speaker 2>mistakes that you've made or feedback you've been given.

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<v Speaker 1>I think you're spot on with that. It's easier said

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<v Speaker 1>than done, though, So what I want to do is

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<v Speaker 1>I want to go over some of the ways that

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<v Speaker 1>you can do this in the right way so that

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<v Speaker 1>they're not disingenuous and they come off as authentic because

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<v Speaker 1>they are authentic, and that it leads to a change

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<v Speaker 1>in the relationship and not just a rolling of the eyes.

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<v Speaker 1>But first, I want to get up toward from our sponsors.

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<v Speaker 1>All Right, As Adam Grant says, the best apology is

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<v Speaker 1>a change in behavior. So it's important to recognize two

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<v Speaker 1>things one that a change in behavior doesn't mean that

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<v Speaker 1>the words aren't important to so an apology of verbal

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<v Speaker 1>apology is still appropriate in situations where behavioral change is needed.

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<v Speaker 1>It just needs to be followed up with with the

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<v Speaker 1>behavioral change, and so the words themselves. The only way

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<v Speaker 1>to make it a genuine apology is to own it.

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<v Speaker 1>And so there is a difference between I'm sorry you

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<v Speaker 1>felt this way and I'm sorry I made you feel

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<v Speaker 1>this way. I think the reason a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>want to go with the verbal apology not the change

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<v Speaker 1>in behavior is that it feels more, you know, final

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<v Speaker 1>and immediate. People are always looking for a quick fix

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<v Speaker 1>to things, whereas a behavioral change isn't something that you

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<v Speaker 1>get through over, you know, right away. It takes time.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if you feel like you've wronged somebody and

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<v Speaker 1>that needs to change, we don't want to wait for

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<v Speaker 1>the weeks or months that it takes for that person

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<v Speaker 1>to see a behavioral change, hoping they get over it,

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<v Speaker 1>or hoping that they're not ruminating in, you know, negative

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<v Speaker 1>thoughts about you. You want to go through life without

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<v Speaker 1>people having negative thoughts about you. So that's why the

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<v Speaker 1>words are important. Also, so you start with the words,

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<v Speaker 1>and you make sure that part of the verbal apology

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<v Speaker 1>includes something to the effect of trust me, you will

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<v Speaker 1>see a change in the behavior related to this, and

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<v Speaker 1>I want you to watch for it, and I want

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<v Speaker 1>you to hold me accountable. Those those need to be

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<v Speaker 1>included in an apology because you're asking for that person

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<v Speaker 1>to notice that you have that you truly mean the apology,

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<v Speaker 1>because the actions are backing it up. And then you

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<v Speaker 1>have to go through the behavioral change to make that happen.

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<v Speaker 1>And that will work really well because the person will

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<v Speaker 1>be watching. You'll feel like you got through it in

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<v Speaker 1>the moment. But as long as you realize that you've

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<v Speaker 1>made a promise and now you have to hold to it,

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<v Speaker 1>then things will be fine. If you decide that it's

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<v Speaker 1>just about the change in behavior and you don't need

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<v Speaker 1>the verbal apology, that won't go well because they won't

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<v Speaker 1>be looking for the positive behavioral change. They'll only be

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<v Speaker 1>looking for things to support the thing they already think

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<v Speaker 1>about you, not the things that show that you're a

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<v Speaker 1>changed person. But if you tell them you're sorry and

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<v Speaker 1>you say things are going to change, then every interaction

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<v Speaker 1>that they have with you or that they see you

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<v Speaker 1>have will be rooted in this idea of Okay, does

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<v Speaker 1>this align with the words this person said to me?

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<v Speaker 1>Does this align with their claim that the behavior will

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<v Speaker 1>change and if you do it the right way and

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<v Speaker 1>you have both in place, that change in behavior will

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<v Speaker 1>lead to a developing or a cultivating a positive relationship. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's great advice. And I also think it's

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<v Speaker 2>important too. It's like, you know, sometimes yeah, we just

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<v Speaker 2>we make a mistake, sometimes make the wrong call. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>there is those elements where it's like, you know, I,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, hey, I made this decision, I made this

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<v Speaker 2>you know call, or I had this conversation with someone

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<v Speaker 2>that that led to, uh, you know, some action that

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<v Speaker 2>was taken it and didn't loop you in right, Like hey, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like we need to own those things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's I think where the apology around competence matters a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, And I can say, like, hey, a Chris,

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<v Speaker 2>I just want to start by saying, hey, my bad,

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<v Speaker 2>I apologize, man. You know what I'm saying like, there

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<v Speaker 2>was no intention to cut you out of that decision

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<v Speaker 2>or to make it seem like we were working around

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<v Speaker 2>you on this one. I made a call, we had

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<v Speaker 2>a conversation, we took some action on it. It completely

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<v Speaker 2>like I it just you know, I I I had

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<v Speaker 2>intention to let you know, and I totally forgot to

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<v Speaker 2>make that call and to send you that text, Messa,

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<v Speaker 2>I caught up with something else. But like I own that.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll make sure in the future like it doesn't happen again,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like like we have to own those mistakes,

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<v Speaker 2>and we have to do it quickly, and we have

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<v Speaker 2>to do it with with authenticity, and we have to

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<v Speaker 2>make sure that we clarify again. I think I think

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<v Speaker 2>there's an important element when you apologize for someone, when

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<v Speaker 2>you can say what you did and then to your

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<v Speaker 2>point earlier, like what you're going to do going forward,

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<v Speaker 2>here is the behavioral change, because I think what it

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<v Speaker 2>also says is like, hey, Chris, I want you to

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<v Speaker 2>hold me accountable for having this behavior, Like I'm putting

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<v Speaker 2>myself out there to say, hey, I apologize for doing this,

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<v Speaker 2>and going forward, this is what I will do to

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<v Speaker 2>not have that happen again, because it adds an element

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<v Speaker 2>of personal accountability to the person that you're apologizing to

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<v Speaker 2>and ownership of knowing that both you owe them an

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<v Speaker 2>apology and you are very clear about what needs to

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<v Speaker 2>change to make sure it doesn't happen again. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes say hey, sorry about that. I'll you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure it won't happen again. Like that doesn't doesn't make

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<v Speaker 2>me feel confident, doesn't make me feel like you've thought

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<v Speaker 2>about how this won't happen again in the future type

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<v Speaker 2>of thing. So I think that those things are important

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<v Speaker 2>when you have the conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree. I also think it's important to know

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<v Speaker 1>from introspection and kind of kind of from a looking

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<v Speaker 1>at yourself from the mirror self awareness standpoint, it's important

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<v Speaker 1>to know exactly why you did something, because otherwise I

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<v Speaker 1>think people can have the tendency to apologize in a

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<v Speaker 1>way that comes off as disingenuous, because sometimes the person

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<v Speaker 1>who you wronged thinks your motivation was one thing when

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<v Speaker 1>it was something else, and you have to be very

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<v Speaker 1>careful not to validate that thought. You need to be

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<v Speaker 1>very careful to make sure that they understand what the

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<v Speaker 1>actual motivation was. And so to give your exact examples

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<v Speaker 1>about not looping somebody in and making a decision, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you got to be very careful not to say something like, honestly,

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<v Speaker 1>I apologize I didn't think to loop you in, because

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<v Speaker 1>you're apologizing for not having the action. But what you've

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<v Speaker 1>said is you weren't a thought in this process. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't think about you in this process, and I went

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<v Speaker 1>ahead and made the decision. And so in the future,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll loop you in, not because I think it's important,

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<v Speaker 1>but because it's important to you. And so that's not

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<v Speaker 1>the same thing in all honesty, when you made the decision,

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<v Speaker 1>it probably wasn't that you didn't think to loop them in.

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<v Speaker 1>You probably thought it was important to loop them in,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was a it slipped your mind to follow

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<v Speaker 1>through with it. Oh, I made the decision I need

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure loop this person in, and then I

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<v Speaker 1>got distracted and forgot to send the email and didn't

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<v Speaker 1>remember it till the next day. You know, whatever it was,

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<v Speaker 1>be honest about what happened, even if there's detail and

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<v Speaker 1>nuance and it's a story, because that that changes the

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<v Speaker 1>way people view what your failure was rooted in, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's important that they know that it was a failure

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<v Speaker 1>of competence and not a failure of character. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>all for joining us on this episode on employee engagement.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll see you next week for the next one. You

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<v Speaker 1>have a great day,