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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three ninety one.
Speaker 2: Hollywood is great. I also think it's stupid and small
Speaker 2: minded and shortsighted. David Fincher broadcasting from a dark, windowless
Speaker 2: room in Hollywood when we really should be working on
Speaker 2: that next draft.
Speaker 1: It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and
Speaker 1: business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your
Speaker 1: screenplay bulletproof.
Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host,
Speaker 2: Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
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Speaker 2: by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys,
Speaker 2: today on the show, we have award winning cinematographer Eric Messersmidt.
Speaker 2: And Eric has had the privilege of working with some
Speaker 2: amazing people over the course of his career, including the
Speaker 2: legendary David Fincher and Michael Mann, just to name a few.
Speaker 2: In this conversation, we talk about how he collaborated with
Speaker 2: both of these giants in the industry, how he approaches
Speaker 2: the process of lighting and shooting and telling a story visually,
Speaker 2: and we talk about his amazing work in the new
Speaker 2: film Devotion, which is out in theaters. So, without any
Speaker 2: further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Eric Meshersmith. I'd
Speaker 2: like to welcome to the show, Eric Messerschmidt. Did I
Speaker 2: get it right? Sir?
Speaker 3: You sure did? He nailed it.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Man thanks very much for coming on
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 3: Brother, Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here.
Speaker 2: So, you've you've done a few things in the business
Speaker 2: so far, you know, as you're a young man and
Speaker 2: you've you've been playing with some heavy hitters over over
Speaker 2: the course of your career. It's pretty interesting.
Speaker 3: I've been really fortunate. Yeah, I've been really fortunate to
Speaker 3: work with some great people.
Speaker 2: For sure, without questions. So my first question is, man,
Speaker 2: how did you and why did you want to get
Speaker 2: into this insanity that is the film business.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I I was a kid that loved
Speaker 3: to make stuff. You know, I love to take things apart,
Speaker 3: I love to build things. I was. I was a
Speaker 3: terrible athlete, but I was creative. And I like to
Speaker 3: take photographs, and I like to paint, and I like
Speaker 3: to play music. And I was you know, I was,
Speaker 3: I was doing stuff. And I got involved in in
Speaker 3: theater really early when I was a kid, and and
Speaker 3: I was I was never really interested in performing, but
Speaker 3: I was always interested in doing stuff behind the scenes,
Speaker 3: and that kind of led led me to a life
Speaker 3: in the movies. I think, you know, to some degree,
Speaker 3: I like the camaraderie of it. I like the the
Speaker 3: shared experience of it. And you know, when it came
Speaker 3: time to go to college and think about what I
Speaker 3: wanted to do with my life, it just it just
Speaker 3: sort of seemed like a like a fit. And honestly,
Speaker 3: it wasn't so much about the work in the beginning.
Speaker 3: It was about the experience. You know. It was like
Speaker 3: about doing stuff up with people really and you know,
Speaker 3: sort of like you know, photography in the beginning really
Speaker 3: interested in me. But it's a it's a it's a
Speaker 3: it's a solo occupation for the most part, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, in most cases anyway, it's like it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's just you and your camera, which I think can
Speaker 3: be really meditated. But but but it wasn't really what
Speaker 3: I wanted. I wanted I wanted to experience with a team,
Speaker 3: you know. So I just kind of landed in in cinema,
Speaker 3: I guess, you know, in to film school and came
Speaker 3: out of it on the other end trying to figure
Speaker 3: out what to do you know, the next forty years
Speaker 3: of my life or whatever.
Speaker 2: It ends up being. Now, you came up in a
Speaker 2: time where you really needed to kind of go through
Speaker 2: the mentoring process and in the in the scope of
Speaker 2: like you get on set, someone takes you under their wing,
Speaker 2: and you might have learned some stuff in film school,
Speaker 2: but it really starts at all the film set and
Speaker 2: you've kind of worked your way up and you know,
Speaker 2: to do a lot of gaffing work. You did second
Speaker 2: unit work until you became a cinematographer on your own right.
Speaker 2: And so many filmmakers today, especially ciner Rock's young cinematographers today,
Speaker 2: they just come out and they're like, I'm a cinematographer
Speaker 2: because I have a camera, and and then I've worked
Speaker 2: with some of them and I go, oh, you you've
Speaker 2: never seen played runner? Okay, then like it's it's it's
Speaker 2: an interesting time because now you know when you and
Speaker 2: I were coming up, because we're a similar vintage. I'm
Speaker 2: a slightly bit older than you, but a little similar vintage.
Speaker 2: You know, it was so expensive, man, everything was so
Speaker 2: damn expensive. The gear was so expensive, and you couldn't
Speaker 2: get access to this stuff, so you really couldn't practice
Speaker 2: on your I mean, I'm assuming you came up on
Speaker 2: film as well.
Speaker 3: I did. I did, Yeah, I mean, I my my
Speaker 3: generation of film students, you know, we didn't have HD
Speaker 3: cameras or I don't. I don't think. You know, when
Speaker 3: I was in school, we even had a digital and
Speaker 3: it wasn't even part of the conversation. You know, we
Speaker 3: were processing sixteen on year film or you know, the
Speaker 3: senior students and the MFA students were shooting in thirty
Speaker 3: five and you know, it was like an investment to
Speaker 3: make a movie at that time. I mean it still is, obviously,
Speaker 3: but but for us, you know, it's like you had
Speaker 3: two cans, you know, two four hundred foot rolls of
Speaker 3: sixty milimeters and you had to make sure it counted.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Oh but every time that you know, I know, every
Speaker 2: time you heard that little like that's money, that's money
Speaker 2: just flowing. Now you roll and roll and roll.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean you know, it was like back
Speaker 3: when rehearsal meant something, you know. I you know, I
Speaker 3: think I'm really glad I had that experience, and I'm
Speaker 3: glad I did it that way. And you know, I
Speaker 3: I think it's important, you know, I mean, I I know,
Speaker 3: I don't think that what we do, or certainly what
Speaker 3: I do for a living, can be learned in school.
Speaker 3: I mean there's you know, it's like you learn things
Speaker 3: like how to you know, you kind of learn how
Speaker 3: to how to react to imagery, I think, and how
Speaker 3: to critique imagery, and how to think about movies and
Speaker 3: how to think about you know, the big picture idea
Speaker 3: of storytelling and stuff to some degree in film school,
Speaker 3: and you learn about your own taste and what you're
Speaker 3: attracted to and that kind of thing, and how to
Speaker 3: communicate with other people and you know, all those skills
Speaker 3: that are incredibly important. But but you don't learn much
Speaker 3: technique in film school, you know, because you just don't
Speaker 3: have enough time. You know. It's like, it's like the
Speaker 3: film set is a complex environment. You know, it's a
Speaker 3: it's a it's an environment of technology and equipment, and
Speaker 3: it's math and science, and it's also personality, you know,
Speaker 3: storytelling and creativity, and it's uh, it takes time, I
Speaker 3: think to learn how all those things congeal, you know,
Speaker 3: and and how to navigate it. And so yeah, I mean,
Speaker 3: I I I really believe that the kind of the
Speaker 3: mentorship idea or the idea of matriculating through the process
Speaker 3: is a really good one and something worth protecting, you know.
Speaker 3: I Mean I came out of film school and I
Speaker 3: was like I'm a cinematographer. You know, I had business cards.
Speaker 3: I think I'm you know.
Speaker 2: A business card, and that's all that's all you need
Speaker 2: is a business card.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. Take it until you make it right.
Speaker 3: But you know, and I got to l A and
Speaker 3: I you know, I had shot some music videos and
Speaker 3: some short films and I was like, I'm going to
Speaker 3: be a DP and I'm going to do it. And
Speaker 3: then of course the reality of life hit me and
Speaker 3: I had to. You know, my parents, you know, we
Speaker 3: didn't have any money. I didn't come from a wealthy family.
Speaker 3: You know. My parents are teachers and librarian. You know,
Speaker 3: it's like we so I you know, I kind of
Speaker 3: had to. I had to make it on my own
Speaker 3: to some degree, you know, and and figure out how
Speaker 3: to make a living and pay my rent and all
Speaker 3: that stuff. And uh And in the end, I wouldn't
Speaker 3: have traded I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean I got to meet so many great people,
Speaker 3: and I I learned from them. You know, you absorb
Speaker 3: their their technique and their their process. And I think
Speaker 3: that's crucial. It's certainly been incredibly importan in my life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you worked on as a as you started really
Speaker 2: coming up as a gaffer, and you did a You
Speaker 2: gaffed on a lot of big shows. I mean you
Speaker 2: worked on Ant Man, I know with Russell. Russell's with Russell,
Speaker 2: who's the sweetest human being ever, Like he is such
Speaker 2: a lovely, soft spoken guy. And I'm like, how did
Speaker 2: you work with James Cameron for so many years? Like
Speaker 2: how how did those two personalities work?
Speaker 3: Man?
Speaker 2: And then he's like, I'll tell you some stuff off air,
Speaker 2: but oh, I'm sure you've I'm sure you've heard a
Speaker 2: couple of stories as well on set. But but as
Speaker 2: so as a gaffer, can you explain to everybody what
Speaker 2: it meant to come up as a gaffer? Because the
Speaker 2: dps I've worked with in my career who came up
Speaker 2: as gaffers, I find are so well versed on set.
Speaker 2: They just will be right back after a word from
Speaker 2: our sponsor and now back to the show. There's just
Speaker 2: a different way of looking at the set. How to
Speaker 2: do a setup. You've already been doing what you're telling
Speaker 2: somebody else to do, because you're like, yeah, I just
Speaker 2: set that over here and then they just do their thing.
Speaker 2: How did that prepare you How did that prepare you
Speaker 2: to be a DP?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think there's a couple of things.
Speaker 3: And look, everyone's got their own process, and everyone has
Speaker 3: their own, you know, their their own path. For me,
Speaker 3: I was you know, I was lucky. I I liked lighting,
Speaker 3: you know, I liked the I liked the stuff and
Speaker 3: initial you know, I like the process of being on
Speaker 3: the set and getting in the mix of it. You know,
Speaker 3: you know, when you when you're a gaffer, uh, you're
Speaker 3: in the movie quite early. You know, you're you're you're
Speaker 3: in a lot of the early conversations, depending on how
Speaker 3: how much the director photography chooses to involve you, you're
Speaker 3: you know, you're off and on the early scouts. You're
Speaker 3: certainly on the text scouts. You're in the production office.
Speaker 3: You're negotiating with the producers. You're negotiating for equipment and
Speaker 3: you know, labor resources and stuff, and you're you know,
Speaker 3: you're oftentimes in meetings with the director and trying to
Speaker 3: figure out how to accomplish certain things. And you're in
Speaker 3: a great position to observe those conversations happen as well
Speaker 3: as you know, a bit of a fly on the
Speaker 3: wall in a way that you know, camera operators and
Speaker 3: assistance are not you know, you're you're camera operator. You're
Speaker 3: rarely on a tech scout. You're very rarely in the
Speaker 3: office and the prep and you know, you may have
Speaker 3: intimate conversations with a DP and the director about how
Speaker 3: they're going to approach certain things. But but but I
Speaker 3: think when you're a gaffer, you're really kind of in
Speaker 3: the thick of it. And for that, you know, for
Speaker 3: me anyway, it was incredibly helpful to learn how to
Speaker 3: prep and how to you know, learning how to read
Speaker 3: blueprints and draft and how to communicate with the art department.
Speaker 3: You know, you're you know, and I was a gaffer.
Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time in production designers offices
Speaker 3: and art director's offices and sitting in there with the draftsmen,
Speaker 3: and you know, you're you're you you know, you learn
Speaker 3: about all that stuff and you have to get good
Speaker 3: at it quickly if you're going to survive, you know,
Speaker 3: so that you know that process and that that kind
Speaker 3: of part of my life was was incredibly helpful to me.
Speaker 3: And then of course you know, that's it doesn't even
Speaker 3: include all the conversations you have with the DP uh
Speaker 3: in PREV then also obviously during your you know, during
Speaker 3: during the shoot, you know, when you're shooting your you know,
Speaker 3: at least when I'm a DP, my closest ally is
Speaker 3: always my gaffer. You know, I'm They're the person you know,
Speaker 3: they're you know, kind of the most effective weapon that
Speaker 3: I have. And also you know the shoulder that I
Speaker 3: cry on most cases, you know, so you know, because
Speaker 3: they're sort of you know, the gaffer is in a
Speaker 3: really good position to kind of observe objectively about what's
Speaker 3: going on and on the set. You know, the operators
Speaker 3: often in the mix, they're there with the actors, they're
Speaker 3: there with the director, they're you know, they're they're working
Speaker 3: every shot, and there there's hyper involved in gaffer is
Speaker 3: you know, working in a setup and getting a setup right,
Speaker 3: and then they're in a position to kind of step
Speaker 3: back and watch the shot take shape. And so I
Speaker 3: find my gaffer is a really good person to kind
Speaker 3: of turn to for objection objective feedback of what's going
Speaker 3: on and how the shot is taking shape and what
Speaker 3: they think could be improved and all that stuff. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, not not always even just in lighting, it's
Speaker 3: in terms of generally what we're doing, and you know,
Speaker 3: as filmmakers, and so you know, I always when I
Speaker 3: look for gaffer, you know, I look for filmmaker first
Speaker 3: and foremost, you know, beyond what their what their lighting
Speaker 3: skill might be, or their personnel management skill is. You know, No,
Speaker 3: there's something I'm really glad I came up that way.
Speaker 2: You know, you know, no, no question, no question. And
Speaker 2: there's something that that they don't talk about very often anywhere,
Speaker 2: let alone in film school, is the politics on set.
Speaker 2: There are politics that you have to deal with within
Speaker 2: the crew. There's different politics groups. There's the producer and
Speaker 2: the directors, but even just within the camera department there's
Speaker 2: politics that you know and on set and on you know,
Speaker 2: the production designer. How do you approach dealing because I'm
Speaker 2: assuming it hasn't always been a smooth, smooth coast. The
Speaker 2: entire career you've had, you've probably run across some politics
Speaker 2: on set and how to deal with it and how
Speaker 2: to properly you know, not step on people's toes, and
Speaker 2: how to even fight for your own you know, as
Speaker 2: a DP, even fight for your own vision while still
Speaker 2: serving the director. But there might be other departments that
Speaker 2: are pushing on you because it's easier for them, but
Speaker 2: might not serve the movie. There's all sorts of agendas
Speaker 2: on set that they just people don't talk about. So
Speaker 2: can you kind of discuss that a little bit without
Speaker 2: obviously naming apps.
Speaker 3: Sure, No, you're you're absolutely right. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: the film set, film set is full of creative people.
Speaker 3: You know, people get in the movie business because they
Speaker 3: they want to They want to contribute, you know, and
Speaker 3: they want to participate. And I you know, I think
Speaker 3: I think generally people in movies sets and film crew
Speaker 3: they have the best intentions. You know, generally people you know,
Speaker 3: they really want to make a great movie. They want
Speaker 3: to they want to do the work, they want to participate.
Speaker 3: But also, you know, a lot of the work is
Speaker 3: sometimes just service job, you know, move this from here
Speaker 3: to there, do this, do that, and and that can happen,
Speaker 3: you know, for someone in my position with a director.
Speaker 3: You know, if you're paired with a really strong director
Speaker 3: and I just need to put a twenty nine millimeters
Speaker 3: lens here, that's the shot, twenty nine million lens here,
Speaker 3: you know, and you may personally think, God, it'd be
Speaker 3: so much better on a thirty five people back a
Speaker 3: little bit, you know, but you have to be careful about,
Speaker 3: you know, when you assert yourself, you know, and you
Speaker 3: have to read the room and understand what's going on
Speaker 3: and sort of you know, h it's it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's about timing, you know, and and and you're right,
Speaker 3: it's it's there are people with agendas, and there are
Speaker 3: people that desperately want to be heard, and there are
Speaker 3: people who who are who get frustrated when their voice
Speaker 3: is not heard, you know, and and and then sometimes
Speaker 3: you have to deal with that, you know, and and
Speaker 3: it's you know, it's that is part of the job,
Speaker 3: for sure, you know. I mean, there's there's a bit
Speaker 3: of air traffic control and personality management with being a
Speaker 3: director photography, especially in a bigger movie, you know, where
Speaker 3: there's you know, you might have an operator who's very
Speaker 3: outspoken and wants to communicate straight with the director, and
Speaker 3: you have to figure out how to you know, when
Speaker 3: to assert yourself into that conversation, when to allow that
Speaker 3: conversation to happen. How involved you want to get if
Speaker 3: you know decisions are being made that are outside of
Speaker 3: your uh, you know, what you think might be appropriate
Speaker 3: for the scene, when to interject without making someone feel bad,
Speaker 3: et cetera. You know, and it's it can be complicated. Uh,
Speaker 3: you know, it happens with production designers too, you know.
Speaker 3: So how do you if you're a director of photography, how
Speaker 3: much ownership do you want to take over things like
Speaker 3: color palette, you know, or costume designers production designers too,
Speaker 3: you know, you sort of have you know, the director photography,
Speaker 3: the production designer, and costume designer are often tasks the
Speaker 3: sort of forming an aesthetic, the esthetic principles of the movie.
Speaker 3: You know, you know, obviously with the help and with
Speaker 3: the leadership of director, but you're you're you know, in
Speaker 3: many cases that you know, those three people I think
Speaker 3: end up sharing that responsibility. And to be honest with you,
Speaker 3: probably the director photography gets a disproportion, not a which
Speaker 3: really should go In many cases it should be more
Speaker 3: equally shared, I think. But uh, you know, it's it's
Speaker 3: it's challenging, and you know, I think you hope that
Speaker 3: you you end up with enough people who are generous
Speaker 3: and thoughtful and and are able to share themselves creatively.
Speaker 3: You know that that you don't run into a lot
Speaker 3: of problems it's not to say that they don't exist.
Speaker 3: And you know, I also think that there's something to
Speaker 3: be said for debate and disagreement, you know, on a set.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like some of the best work I've
Speaker 3: done has come because a production designer and I disagreed
Speaker 3: about a direction to go on a particular set, or
Speaker 3: a particular way to design something, or you know, especially
Speaker 3: like complicated physical effects, you know, sort of things like
Speaker 3: that that need that you know, that are that are
Speaker 3: different than a couple of walls and a camera. You know,
Speaker 3: it's those oftentimes, if you know, two people meet and
Speaker 3: they're strong minded and it's like, well let's do this now,
Speaker 3: and I think we should do this, and then you know,
Speaker 3: if it's a safe space creatively, then you work something out.
Speaker 3: If it's not a safe space, that's where it gets ugly,
Speaker 3: you know. But I do think, you know, that's sort
Speaker 3: of the idea of it being a place for ideas
Speaker 3: that you can then you know, debate is important. But
Speaker 3: now don't a sentence you're.
Speaker 2: Question no, you know, it's it's it's a complicated thing.
Speaker 2: It's a very total, you know, you're on eggshells kind
Speaker 2: of situation and it is a case by case basis.
Speaker 2: Like as a cinematographer, you know when you're working with
Speaker 2: a strong director, and you have worked and are currently
Speaker 2: working with two of the strongest directors in the business,
Speaker 2: Michaelman and David Fincher on your on two of two
Speaker 2: projects are coming out next year. I mean, they're really
Speaker 2: strong directors Fincher specifically. You know, I had I had
Speaker 2: your friend and colleague Jeff Crunlworth on, and you know,
Speaker 2: I talked all about like David's legendary for being so
Speaker 2: technically precise with everything, and he's he almost has a
Speaker 2: Kubrick esque vibe to him in the sense that he
Speaker 2: could maybe light the damn thing himself like Kober used
Speaker 2: to be able to do so technically good at this stuff.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. We'll be right back after
Speaker 2: a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show.
Speaker 2: So how do you, as a cinematographer approach working with
Speaker 2: someone like David Because I know you worked with mind Hunter, which,
Speaker 2: by the way, gorgeous love that. Please tell me another
Speaker 2: season is coming soon? Please? I want another season. I
Speaker 2: think I'm not the only one. We all want another season.
Speaker 3: Me too. I'm with you man, I'm with you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like, how do you like that was a
Speaker 2: different that was a different scenario. I think that was
Speaker 2: kind of when you first started to work with David
Speaker 2: directly as a cinematographer.
Speaker 3: Correct, that's right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: So how did you I?
Speaker 3: You know, I had seen Jeff work with David and
Speaker 3: I you know, I mean I have Jeff Is is
Speaker 3: an incredible mentor to me, you know, I mean, I
Speaker 3: owe him so much. And you know, Jeff is a
Speaker 3: real master at managing the set and managing the environment
Speaker 3: and boarding the director he's working with. You know, I
Speaker 3: mean I've worked with Jeff when I was a gaffer.
Speaker 3: I worked with Jeff on with many other directors other
Speaker 3: than David as well, you know, And Jeff is always
Speaker 3: consistent at making you know, he protects the director and
Speaker 3: and and supports them, uh you know, whatever way he
Speaker 3: you know, he can find that they need support. And
Speaker 3: I think that's something I learned from Jeff Is. You
Speaker 3: know that the role of the cinematographer is fluid, and
Speaker 3: it's it's not a binary black and white thing. It's
Speaker 3: not like Okay, I do this and you do this.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's much broader than that. Uh, and you know,
Speaker 3: I think part of it is you you you meet someone,
Speaker 3: you talk to them, and and then you're you know,
Speaker 3: you're first down the set. You really learn what it
Speaker 3: is they need from you or you know, and they
Speaker 3: don't always tell you, you know. I mean I think is
Speaker 3: some you know, directors, uh, you know, often think they
Speaker 3: need something other than what they what they actually need
Speaker 3: to you know what I mean, they're they're they're not
Speaker 3: always the best people at stepping back and observing what
Speaker 3: it is, how how best they need to be supported,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, I think none of us really are.
Speaker 3: You know, you sort of have to inquire and ask
Speaker 3: ask you you know, what what happened then you know.
Speaker 3: But uh, you know, David is not that case. Dave
Speaker 3: is extremely good at sort of recognizing where he needs
Speaker 3: help and what what he what he needs. And you know,
Speaker 3: David is an extraordinary communicator. He's very clear and concise,
Speaker 3: and you know, his tremendous economy of language, so he
Speaker 3: can say quite clearly clearly about what he what he
Speaker 3: wants to accomplish. But he's also you know, he's he's
Speaker 3: been I think a bit mistreated because he is incredibly collaborative.
Speaker 3: At least that's been my experience with him. I heard
Speaker 3: the very open to ideas and yeah and and and
Speaker 3: excited about ideas and wants people to bring ideas to
Speaker 3: the table. He just wants them to He wants idea
Speaker 3: is to be presented in a reasonable way with enough
Speaker 3: time to act.
Speaker 2: On them, you know, and helicopter here.
Speaker 3: No, yeah, exactly, yeah, uh, you know no, It's like
Speaker 3: and I think that that's you know, that's really what
Speaker 3: you want directors. You want someone who has who has
Speaker 3: a vision, who has a plan, who says, Okay, we're
Speaker 3: going to do this and this and this and this,
Speaker 3: and if there's room for improvement or room for other ideas,
Speaker 3: you can voice them when it's appropriate, and they could,
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's it's up to the director about
Speaker 3: whether or not they're going to take that idea or not.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think of my job as being
Speaker 3: one necessarily that that requires me taking ownership of anything.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's like, you know, I want
Speaker 3: a film I'm working on to be a dictatorship. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think that that's where the best work gets done. Honestly,
Speaker 3: it just should be a benevolent one, you know, it
Speaker 3: should be ideally, but uh, you know, it's it's I
Speaker 3: I hope that I you know, I come and approach
Speaker 3: something and I am a director I'm working with has
Speaker 3: brought me there because they like or are interested in
Speaker 3: my point of view as well, you know, so so
Speaker 3: I and I want to bring something to the party.
Speaker 3: And and I think, you know, it's certainly in my
Speaker 3: relationship with David has been that it's like we you know,
Speaker 3: we we make a very good team in terms of
Speaker 3: evaluating what's going on on the set and and bifurcating
Speaker 3: our collective responsibility. So even though and you're absolutely right,
Speaker 3: David could for sure show up and talk directly to
Speaker 3: the gaffer and say put that light there, put that
Speaker 3: light there to you know whatever, But he also knows
Speaker 3: that I have a skill and I have a communication
Speaker 3: method with the geffer, and I have taste, and I
Speaker 3: have a point of view that that you know, for
Speaker 3: whatever reason, he sometimes likes and is willing to let
Speaker 3: me run with. And then if he doesn't like something,
Speaker 3: he points it out, and that's okay, you know, I mean,
Speaker 3: that's I think that's part of the job, and it's
Speaker 3: it's really a lot of it is is helping the director,
Speaker 3: you know, pull the walls up of their sandbox so
Speaker 3: that they can play, you know, and right. And that's
Speaker 3: the way I try to look at it, you know,
Speaker 3: as much as I can. I mean, it's ego always
Speaker 3: gets in the way a little bit. You want to
Speaker 3: you know, you really want to take Sometimes you feel
Speaker 3: strongly about whatever it is you're going to do, and
Speaker 3: you know, and you know, if you know, if it
Speaker 3: seems appropriate, your debate and if it's you know, sometimes
Speaker 3: you win, sometimes you lose, but you know you're not
Speaker 3: the director. And that's how it is.
Speaker 2: And I think you're right. I think you said that
Speaker 2: David kind of gets a bad rap sometimes. I think
Speaker 2: it's because of the legendary number of takes he takes.
Speaker 2: And I think that kind of has been like the
Speaker 2: the mythology of the myth of working with David, Like
Speaker 2: you're going to do it's like Kubrick again, We'll go
Speaker 2: back to Kubrick. You're going to do seventy. You're going
Speaker 2: to do seventy takes and he might take take three,
Speaker 2: but he's going to push you to seventy because that's
Speaker 2: just the way his process is. And from someone who's
Speaker 2: worked with him, is that true. He does do sixty
Speaker 2: takes and stuff that not every take of everything.
Speaker 3: I mean, will I mean David, you know, David wants
Speaker 3: to do it until it's right. And I think he should,
Speaker 3: you know, I think absolutely should. I mean, and and
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, look, I've been in a d
Speaker 3: I suite where we haven't done it right and it's painful.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, yeah, you know, and and uh, you know,
Speaker 3: no nobody walks out of the movie theater and says,
Speaker 3: at least they made their day.
Speaker 2: That's so great. You should actually get t shirts made
Speaker 2: and give it to give it to the department. And
Speaker 2: just like no one walks out of the theater and say, oh,
Speaker 2: at least they made their day. You're absolutely right.
Speaker 3: But that's that's why.
Speaker 2: But that's why, it's that's why his movies look the
Speaker 2: way they look, and that's why they are the way
Speaker 2: they are. It's I mean, there's something really magical about
Speaker 2: a Fincher film, all the back to you know, from seven,
Speaker 2: even Alien three with all the problems he had with that,
Speaker 2: but Seven and Fight Club and The Game and all
Speaker 2: of those films, they're so specific. Almost when I look
Speaker 2: at him, because I'm a huge David Fincher fan, He's
Speaker 2: almost surgical with how he approaches telling the story. It's
Speaker 2: almost like a surgical scalpel almost, like it's so clean
Speaker 2: and every edge is almost done right. And I think
Speaker 2: that just comes from ten thousand commercials and music videos
Speaker 2: he's shot before he ever got onto a film set.
Speaker 3: For Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know. Look, it's like,
Speaker 3: I think what is important to appreciate about David, and
Speaker 3: I think any filmmaker is that the you know, David
Speaker 3: in particular though, is very aware of film technique and
Speaker 3: film grammar and the kind of you know, the the
Speaker 3: He's incredibly cinema literate. So if you said to David, hey,
Speaker 3: I need you to go out and let's let's take this.
Speaker 3: You're gonna take this commercial, but I need it done
Speaker 3: in the style of Jean Lucagar, you'd absolutely do it.
Speaker 3: You know. It's like David's David's choice of technique is
Speaker 3: is is his, arn't you know I think and you know,
Speaker 3: I think I think people discount and it's and I
Speaker 3: wish it was top more in cinema is the idea
Speaker 3: of this kind of balance between between intent and working practice,
Speaker 3: you know, the idea that you have, you have, you know,
Speaker 3: the Kubrick methodology of like, this is the shot I'm
Speaker 3: gonna shoot, and it's going to be this shot is
Speaker 3: gonna be on a twenty seven milimeter lens and the
Speaker 3: focus is going to be here, and I'm going to
Speaker 3: get it until it's perfect right, and it might take
Speaker 3: all day, but I don't care because I need this shot.
Speaker 3: And then on the other you have the kind of
Speaker 3: French New Wave or Cassavetties or whatever you want to
Speaker 3: call it, of this kind of veryite idea of like, well,
Speaker 3: let's just go out and shoot, you know, Lars von
Speaker 3: Trier kind of thing, like let's just go out and
Speaker 3: shoot and be spontaneous and exciting and fun, and we're
Speaker 3: going to get some stuff and then we'll figure out
Speaker 3: in the editing room. And there's some intent there, but
Speaker 3: you know, they're both completely valid ways to make a movie,
Speaker 3: but both of them have a tremendous effect esthetically on
Speaker 3: the movie, you know. And and so it's so your
Speaker 3: point is quite right, Like you don't get the David
Speaker 3: Fincher look once you do it until it's perfect.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine that John Cassavetti style David Fincher film.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine that would be.
Speaker 3: Like just.
Speaker 2: Like we'll be right back after a word from our
Speaker 2: sponsor and now back to the show.
Speaker 1: But you know, the other the.
Speaker 3: Other side is true too, you know if you so,
Speaker 3: it's I think that you know, you have to kind
Speaker 3: of there isn't enough attention made towards the environment of
Speaker 3: the set and the methodology through which you make the
Speaker 3: set has a huge bearing on how the movie feels emotionally,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean we love to talk about shots,
Speaker 3: and in film school they like, Okay, let's do this
Speaker 3: handheld and it'll be exciting. What's way more nuanced than that,
Speaker 3: you know, because you could do you know, I mean
Speaker 3: there's handheld shots and and uh you know the great example,
Speaker 3: well it's not handheld actually, but it's on the dolly,
Speaker 3: but you know the shot and clute Jane Fawn is
Speaker 3: walking through the through the through the club and she's
Speaker 3: she's eyeing or a shier and it looks spontaneous. You know,
Speaker 3: that shot looks like it's just a walk through the club, Jane,
Speaker 3: And we're gonna follow you, We're gonna pull back on
Speaker 3: the dolly and it's like, no, it's been If you
Speaker 3: watch it a couple of times, you realize so incredibly
Speaker 3: rehearsed it, you know. And and and that's you know,
Speaker 3: I think that's the great example of like the perfect
Speaker 3: card trick of cinema. It's like making someone believe they've
Speaker 3: seen something spontaneous when in fact it's incredibly rehearsed, you know.
Speaker 3: And David is is you know better than anyone I
Speaker 3: know at exactly that now?
Speaker 2: Is there is there any story that you can share publicly,
Speaker 2: uh with of you and David working on set, something fun,
Speaker 2: something like I learned something that day by seeing him work,
Speaker 2: something that you can share publicly. We could talk after
Speaker 2: our after we hit the record button off, we could
Speaker 2: talk about the other ones.
Speaker 3: I you know, I think about that a little bit. Yeah, probably.
Speaker 3: I mean there's every day, you know, we're sort of
Speaker 3: confronted with with stuff. I mean it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me ask you this, you know, well,
Speaker 2: let me let me ask you this. What was the
Speaker 2: what was the worst day for you as a cinematographer
Speaker 2: on on working David that you felt like the entire
Speaker 2: world was going to come crashing down around you, which
Speaker 2: we all have those days on set, and how did
Speaker 2: you how did you overcome those days? And it could
Speaker 2: have been anything from a camera fell in the lake
Speaker 2: to the actor didn't come out of the thing, or
Speaker 2: the sun's going down, We're losing the light? What is
Speaker 2: what was that day for you?
Speaker 3: And David Sure it was you know, the first day
Speaker 3: we the first day of shooting on Mank, we we
Speaker 3: had we had had a plan. We were sort of
Speaker 3: like we had we had had a plan that that
Speaker 3: that MGM and Paramount would have two different looks. That
Speaker 3: Paramount would be this sort of soft lit, very like
Speaker 3: gray environment, and it was because it was sort of
Speaker 3: the low rent at the time, and MGM would be
Speaker 3: glamorous and hard lit and lots of contrasts, and and
Speaker 3: that's how we would you know, And that was a
Speaker 3: conversation we had had a lot at the beginning of
Speaker 3: the movie, you know, like in the prep we had
Speaker 3: talked about it and talk and then we you know,
Speaker 3: implemented a bunch of lighting plans as a result. And
Speaker 3: the first scene we shot in Mank is a scene
Speaker 3: where where Gary oldman is gambling with his buddies in
Speaker 3: the writer's room and they're spinning the they're spinning the
Speaker 3: coin and there's a whole there's a whole kind of
Speaker 3: bit with them. And they've got a they've got a
Speaker 3: show girl who's who's who's uh they have they have
Speaker 3: a secretary whos dressed. It's a show girl. And it's
Speaker 3: sort of like it's there's you know, levity in the
Speaker 3: scene and it's sort of silly, you know. And we
Speaker 3: were going to do it softly, and we were just
Speaker 3: going to tend the windows, blow them out, the soft sideline,
Speaker 3: you know, And that's what we did. And we showed up.
Speaker 3: We rehearsed the scene the day before and it was
Speaker 3: lit and you know, we looked at it and then
Speaker 3: we started shooting and and at lunchtime David pulled me
Speaker 3: aside and says, it's not working, and this is working.
Speaker 3: It's wrong. This is wrong. And you know, I'm quite
Speaker 3: a literal person generally, and immediately internalized it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, and you know, and really what
Speaker 3: it was was it was the conversation of, like, hey,
Speaker 3: we made this decision to do it this way, and
Speaker 3: we can't do it this way. We need to we
Speaker 3: need to change the change the look. And you know,
Speaker 3: of course, yeah, I mean I started feeling like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, what have I done it? But then it's
Speaker 3: you know, it's just it was a it was a
Speaker 3: decision that we had make that that that was wrong,
Speaker 3: and he was quite right, actually, you know, and so
Speaker 3: we we quickly moved over to the second scene we
Speaker 3: shot is this they're playing cards and it's and it
Speaker 3: was intended to be this kind of very dramatic slashes
Speaker 3: of light and there's patterns on everybody's face and it's
Speaker 3: sort of classic noir kind of style lighting with a
Speaker 3: lot of smoke, and and I was, okay, so we'll
Speaker 3: go we'll we'll pitt, we'll go shoot this scene. The
Speaker 3: next day. We're going to go back and shoot this differently.
Speaker 3: And and he, you know, so we finished the first scene,
Speaker 3: he was really happy with it, finished the second scene,
Speaker 3: was quite happy with it, and then we went back
Speaker 3: in we started talking about how we could do it differently,
Speaker 3: and and you know, we backed it all up and
Speaker 3: we put hard light out through the through the windows instead,
Speaker 3: and talk you know, explained to him what I thought
Speaker 3: we could do differently, and then we shot the scene
Speaker 3: and it worked great, you know, but it's sort of
Speaker 3: like it was that moment of failure, you know, it's
Speaker 3: sort of like, oh my god, what have we done?
Speaker 3: You know, But in actuality of the conversation was really
Speaker 3: it was just, you know, between two people trying to
Speaker 3: figure out what could be improved, you know, And that's
Speaker 3: that's one of the great things about David is he's
Speaker 3: very open like that when it's not working.
Speaker 2: And it's so funny because I'm sure there's other cinematographers
Speaker 2: listening right now going If I would have shot a
Speaker 2: scene with David Fincher and then went to lunch and
Speaker 2: he came up to me at lunch like, hey man, yeah,
Speaker 2: first half day didn't work at all. I can only
Speaker 2: imagine the internal oh my god, cause I mean I've
Speaker 2: been around dps all my career. I know how they think.
Speaker 2: They're like, holy crap, I've screwed this film up. And
Speaker 2: that's at let's say, my level. Can you imagine if
Speaker 2: David Fincher walks up, or Michael Mann walks up, or
Speaker 2: or or Joseph works up somebody like some of these
Speaker 2: big directors and say something like that. But it automatic
Speaker 2: isn't funny how you automatically thought just first it's me,
Speaker 2: but it was it was a it's not that you
Speaker 2: like under expose something that's unusable. No, we exactly executed
Speaker 2: what we had planned to do, but it is not
Speaker 2: working stylistically. It's not like there was a problem with
Speaker 2: your technique. What you went after you got but it's
Speaker 2: not working that But you internalize the different things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, I mean, because it's you know, it's
Speaker 3: I think also when you're a cinematographer, you are I
Speaker 3: think to be to be a working cinematographer, you have
Speaker 3: to these days, you have to be practical, right, you
Speaker 3: have to be responsible and practical and thoughtful, and you
Speaker 3: have to sort of you know, the costs of the
Speaker 3: day on a major motion picture is expensive, you know,
Speaker 3: and it's you want to use your resources wisely and
Speaker 3: you want to make the right choice, you know. And
Speaker 3: you know the idea of reshooting something because because it
Speaker 3: doesn't look the way the director wants it to look
Speaker 3: is is you know, it immediately feels like failure. You know.
Speaker 3: I actually I quite think that's it's actually the opposite.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that sort of that is the
Speaker 3: process of developing and creating something with someone who's is
Speaker 3: learning about what's working what's not. And in the end,
Speaker 3: because we sort of looked at it together and we
Speaker 3: thought it it, we thought about what could be improved.
Speaker 3: It opened up a lot of things for us on
Speaker 3: that film and and help and ultimately it you know,
Speaker 3: it ultimately made us better collaborators and sort of and
Speaker 3: it made the you know, improve the film enormously. And
Speaker 3: so it was like, I think it just you know,
Speaker 3: it takes fortitude to make that decision in that moment,
Speaker 3: and because there was technically nothing wrong with the scene,
Speaker 3: it just didn't look quite right, didn't.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: All the camera direction we did is exactly the same.
Speaker 3: You know, the performances are quite similar too, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean it's like it's not like, like you say,
Speaker 3: it's not like it was under mistaken, you know, seeingly
Speaker 3: under exposed three stops.
Speaker 2: Or something exactly. Now, I gotta ask you, man, because
Speaker 2: you're working on some pretty big budgets right now. I
Speaker 2: mean the movie you're doing with David the Killer, I'm
Speaker 2: sure not an independent film, uh, And the one you're
Speaker 2: working with with Michael Mann Ferrari, which obviously I have
Speaker 2: to go see. Uh it's my grandfather's company. But then
Speaker 2: you know, you're talking about massive budgets. The pressure is
Speaker 2: heavy on a normal cinematographer on a basic budget. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of people asking you things. On a director
Speaker 2: as well, but you know, your your department, what's it
Speaker 2: like dealing with not just five people. I'm assuming your
Speaker 2: crew is fairly massive, and you've got a lot of
Speaker 2: things going on, and then you've got responsibilities here and there,
Speaker 2: and then like you were saying, costs and and make,
Speaker 2: it almost seems like the pressure of all the crap
Speaker 2: that you have to deal with overpowers the creative pressure almost,
Speaker 2: so there's a balance that you have to to do.
Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, you're right, it's it's I mean,
Speaker 3: I think that's really where the importance of prep comes in.
Speaker 3: And you know, it's I believe you make the movie
Speaker 3: and the prep and you know, if you're if you
Speaker 3: do it right, you're you know, you're you're coloring the
Speaker 3: lines when you're shooting. And it doesn't mean that there
Speaker 3: isn't room to to go outside the lines occasionally and
Speaker 3: make adjustments, but it's you know, it makes all that
Speaker 3: stuff easier if you know where you're going in the
Speaker 3: prep and you sort of have a you know, you
Speaker 3: have a visual plan, you have a you know, you
Speaker 3: have a logistical plan about how you're going to move
Speaker 3: equipment and people, and you know what your locations are
Speaker 3: going to be in with your schedule is. It's it
Speaker 3: makes all that stuff substantially easier.
Speaker 2: You know, we'll be right back after a wh heard
Speaker 2: from our sponsor and now back to the show.
Speaker 3: It's it's complicated if you if you haven't done that obviously,
Speaker 3: and then you sort of are are are You're making
Speaker 3: the you're making the creative decisions and the aesthetics sort
Speaker 3: of you know, overarching artistic stuff at the same time
Speaker 3: you're trying to solve logistical problems into meet you know,
Speaker 3: that's a real recipe for disaster. So you know, if
Speaker 3: you can, if you can prep the movie in advance
Speaker 3: with enough kind of understanding of what's going to happen
Speaker 3: and you know, with a little bit of contingency for
Speaker 3: whether or whatever, then it alleviates a lot of that stress.
Speaker 3: But you're right, I mean, you know, a lot of
Speaker 3: the job on a bigger movie like that is just
Speaker 3: personality management and people management, and you know, you're sort
Speaker 3: of you're trying to get people pointed in the right direction,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, on a on the movie I
Speaker 3: Do with Michael, you know, we had really big camera department.
Speaker 3: We're usually you know, shooting three or four cameras at
Speaker 3: any given time, and so you know, it's it's you're
Speaker 3: not in a position necessarily where you can control every frame,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. With David and I it's
Speaker 3: like we kind of set every shot together and we're like, Okay,
Speaker 3: we're gona do this, and we're gonna do this, We're
Speaker 3: going to you know, we're picking each lens together and
Speaker 3: going through, Okay, this is the camera and this is
Speaker 3: the camera. And then you know, uh, not every movie
Speaker 3: is like that, you know, and and sometimes I wish
Speaker 3: they were, you know, I mean, sometimes it can spiral
Speaker 3: out of your grasp a little bit. You have to
Speaker 3: you have to clot back, but but you know, there's
Speaker 3: there's a bit of kind of allowing things to happen.
Speaker 3: You pay out lead and then you kind of pull
Speaker 3: it back when you can. You sort of try and
Speaker 3: figure out who's who's right which shots, and you know,
Speaker 3: it's there's a it's a process like anything, you know,
Speaker 3: any kind of massive creative endeavor like that.
Speaker 2: Now I do have to ask, man, is it a
Speaker 2: was it a dream? Shooting bank in black and white?
Speaker 2: Like how you just don't get that opportunity in cinema today,
Speaker 2: Like I'm sure you got called by tons of your
Speaker 2: cinematographer friends at the AC going. So what was it like?
Speaker 2: It's like shooting shooting black and white at that level?
Speaker 2: Just I mean, unless you're the Coen Brothers that does
Speaker 2: it once in a blue moon, but the generally studios
Speaker 2: just won't allow it. So this was not only black
Speaker 2: and white. It was black and white in the style
Speaker 2: of the Golden Age of Hollywood. So what was it
Speaker 2: like as creatively just living in that, in that world
Speaker 2: of blacks and grays and whites and all that.
Speaker 3: Well, well, I you know, I mean, honestly, I was
Speaker 3: really intimidated. I I can imagine, you know, I wanted
Speaker 3: to make the right choices, you know, I mean, it's
Speaker 3: it's hard, It's like you know, I I was at
Speaker 3: the time, I was particularly conscious of the fact that
Speaker 3: that black and white could easily become cliche, you know,
Speaker 3: and and derivative of something. You know. It's just I
Speaker 3: didn't want it to be like, oh, they're doing the
Speaker 3: Venetian blind thing, you know, painting the shats on the wall. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: You know. So it's like I think, you know, I
Speaker 3: I was sort of you have the idea about what
Speaker 3: you're going to go out and make, and then you're
Speaker 3: confronted with the you know, the realities of the of
Speaker 3: the limitations the locations present to you or the stage
Speaker 3: sets present to you, and you sort of, you know,
Speaker 3: it's like filmmaking is compromise, you know, so you're always,
Speaker 3: you know, you're always sort of coming to it, coming
Speaker 3: to an intersection, figuring out, okay, A or B, I'll
Speaker 3: do this or I'll do this, and you sort of
Speaker 3: hope that the decisions that you make in the broad
Speaker 3: sense congeal enough to make something that's consistent. You know.
Speaker 3: It's because it's really hard to see the movie, you know,
Speaker 3: in day six and uh, you know, I I think,
Speaker 3: you know, if I've learned anything in them day but
Speaker 3: it's like and Michael actually and a lot of the
Speaker 3: great directors I've worked from. It's like you have an
Speaker 3: idea and stick with it, you know, don't get cold feet,
Speaker 3: don't get you know, and I did. You know, there
Speaker 3: were moments on Bank where I was worried and I said, man,
Speaker 3: I don't know if are we being bold enough? We've
Speaker 3: being you know, And I went out and had a
Speaker 3: beer with David one night and I said, I don't know, Man,
Speaker 3: I'm worried we're not being bold enough. I worried people
Speaker 3: are going to be critical of it. And he was like,
Speaker 3: fuck them, No, You're doing exactly what you should do.
Speaker 3: Just keep this whole, you know, hold the course. And
Speaker 3: it was you know, at the time, it was exactly
Speaker 3: what I needed to hear it because I was getting
Speaker 3: insecure about what we were doing and I was exactly
Speaker 3: if it was right. But yeah, I mean, I mean
Speaker 3: in terms of black and white, it was. And got
Speaker 3: what incredible opportunity, you know, to do something that very
Speaker 3: few people get to do, and something I really was
Speaker 3: excited to do and something I quite honestly was not
Speaker 3: comfortable doing when we you know, when we started that film,
Speaker 3: I mean I got more comfortable with it, and I
Speaker 3: you know, did a ton of research, and I looked
Speaker 3: at a lot of images, lots of tests and sort
Speaker 3: of figured out what it was we wanted to do.
Speaker 3: But we also, you know, we wanted to make our
Speaker 3: own look too, sort of our own style, and that
Speaker 3: was scary, you know. Yeah, it was especially considered in
Speaker 3: the subject matter. You know. It's like I, you know,
Speaker 3: I just felt I felt the weight of honoring Greg
Speaker 3: Tolan and Orson Wells in the film and the film
Speaker 3: community as a whole. You know, when we were making
Speaker 3: a movie, I really you know, I wanted to I
Speaker 3: wanted to be respectful to what, you know, kind of
Speaker 3: the importance of that movie as well, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, Eric, I'm stressed out as you're talking about it,
Speaker 2: and I didn't shoot the damn thing. I mean, as
Speaker 2: you're talking, I'm like, oh my god, to area find
Speaker 2: Orson Wells and it's Citizen Kane, and and every filmmaker
Speaker 2: in the world is going to see this because everyone
Speaker 2: seeing Citizen Kane. And I could imagine you could just
Speaker 2: drive yourself mad thinking about this stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, easily, Yeah, for sure. You know, you can just
Speaker 3: go to work and have a good time, and you.
Speaker 2: Know, and it's another movie and you have to. You
Speaker 2: have to look at it like it's another movie. If not,
Speaker 2: you'll you'll psych yourself out without question. Now, I do
Speaker 2: you know you are working with Michael Mann? Or I
Speaker 2: don't know sure? If you're I think you're in post
Speaker 2: production at this point on that film. If I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 2: we can just finish, just finished. So what I mean?
Speaker 2: Michael Mann, He's a legend man, He's a legend in
Speaker 2: our in the in our business. And you know as well,
Speaker 2: legendary stories. You know, I was in Miami when Miami
Speaker 2: Vice was going on, so and I came up in Miami.
Speaker 2: So all I hear is about Michael Man Miami Vice.
Speaker 2: Stories from all the old crew guys that I used
Speaker 2: to work with on the commercials. We say, yeah, I
Speaker 2: was on there when Michael and Adie almost came on,
Speaker 2: and like you hear these stories about what happened back then.
Speaker 2: So what's it like collaborating with someone like Michael because
Speaker 2: this is your first collaboration with him? Correct?
Speaker 3: Yeah it was. I mean, you know, I don't really
Speaker 3: want to talk a lot about the movie because we
Speaker 3: finished it, and fair enough, we just we just made
Speaker 3: the sausage and now we're going to age it a
Speaker 3: little bit. In a little while, someone's gonna cook it up,
Speaker 3: and then you guys are gonna taste it, and you
Speaker 3: have to let us know if we did any good,
Speaker 3: you know. But I you know, look, it's like the
Speaker 3: great thing about this job is coming in and watching
Speaker 3: other people, you know, learning how other people make their movies.
Speaker 3: And you know, as a cinematographer, I think it's your
Speaker 3: you know, it's your job to come in and and uh,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of like I said earlier, figure out
Speaker 3: how it is you can help, you know, what is
Speaker 3: it this person needs for me?
Speaker 2: Mhm?
Speaker 3: And it's often very different, you know, it's it's it's
Speaker 3: often you know, doesn't and so there's you know, there's
Speaker 3: a process of discovery I think creatively with people and
Speaker 3: also just just straight up logistically about where where where
Speaker 3: does my cob fit within this machine? You know. And
Speaker 3: and the thing about Michael is that he is probably
Speaker 3: the most tenacious person I know. I mean, he will
Speaker 3: fight forever for his film, and he will fight for
Speaker 3: his actors, and he will fight for the but but
Speaker 3: you know, but most importantly, he fights for the story,
Speaker 3: and he fights for what he thinks is important for
Speaker 3: the scene and nothing else matters. And I really admire
Speaker 3: that about him, you know, I mean he uh, he
Speaker 3: is not distracted by the kind of incidental stuff that
Speaker 3: that you know, me and my fellow cinematographers would go
Speaker 3: crazy about if it if it detracts from something that
Speaker 3: is dramatically important to him. And and I think by
Speaker 3: the way that he's he's absolutely right about that. And
Speaker 3: it's something I really learned from him. Is you know,
Speaker 3: you protect the film and the story first, and and
Speaker 3: and all the other things are our secondary. So you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's uh, it's it's it's a it's an interesting
Speaker 3: environment to participate in. And and you know, the kind
Speaker 3: of energy that that feeds is is exciting and sometimes
Speaker 3: complex and and uh and and uh uh frenetic. But
Speaker 3: but you know, but Michael, you know, he's he's a
Speaker 3: force and uh and and he's he's incredible, you know,
Speaker 3: and it's and the thing is, you know, I I
Speaker 3: have been fortunate to work with a few directors of
Speaker 3: his vintage and and you know, they they there's there's
Speaker 3: something really special about working with people that have been
Speaker 3: through you know, we're not talking ten thousand hours we're
Speaker 3: talking one hundred thousand hours, you know of you know,
Speaker 3: understanding cinema language, understanding blocking and thinking about the same
Speaker 3: thing about and then doing it their way, you know,
Speaker 3: and they're not distracted about like, well this is how
Speaker 3: you you know, you need an over the shoulder and
Speaker 3: then you need a two shot and you should get
Speaker 3: the POV and you.
Speaker 2: Know we'll be right back after a wh from our
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Speaker 3: Michael doesn't work that way. It's not you know, he's
Speaker 3: he's he's working in in his language exclusively and and
Speaker 3: that's that's really cool, you know, because a lot of filmmakers,
Speaker 3: especially younger ones, will turn to you and say, well,
Speaker 3: what do I need now? You know, how many shots
Speaker 3: to tell this scene or whatever? And you can have
Speaker 3: your opinion, but uh, but you know, I think, uh,
Speaker 3: it's you know, as cinematographers, we're we're there to provide
Speaker 3: guidance and assistance and and and and interpret things visually contribute.
Speaker 3: But but you know, I think of all the directors
Speaker 3: that I admire, the ones who speak through the frame
Speaker 3: are are are my favorites? You know? The directors that
Speaker 3: really kind of are are you know, appreciate, you know,
Speaker 3: approach it holistically. Are the ones that I respond to
Speaker 3: the best. And so so I'm I'm really cautious when
Speaker 3: I when I inject too much of my personal opinion,
Speaker 3: uh into a director's workflow if they haven't asked for it,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: If I may piggyback on your sausage analogy. Uh, the
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a great chef who has made
Speaker 2: the sausage a thousand times the way that it's in
Speaker 2: the textbook, and now they're just they're just kind of riffing.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like kind of jazz in a sense,
Speaker 2: and like, well, well, you really need to put the
Speaker 2: meat in the casing first. It's like, no, I'm going
Speaker 2: to put the casing in the middle. I'm going to
Speaker 2: wrap the sausage or the meat around it, and then
Speaker 2: I'm going to bred it, and then I'm going to
Speaker 2: defron and then there's others. You're just approaching it in
Speaker 2: different ways, and everyone's like, oh wow. But he understands
Speaker 2: the basics of how to make or how to shoot
Speaker 2: a scene exactly how it's textbook supposed to be done.
Speaker 2: But because he has so much understanding of the medium
Speaker 2: of the language. Just like David. They could just riff
Speaker 2: and do whatever they're You don't need a two shot,
Speaker 2: you don't need a once. You can cut the whole
Speaker 2: damn thing on a long shot on one hundred mil
Speaker 2: through a tree and it works. You know, you're like, oh, oh,
Speaker 2: but the in the textbooks, any film school teacher would go,
Speaker 2: don't do that. But they just understand that language. It's
Speaker 2: like a tarantino, Like they understand the film language so
Speaker 2: well that they just they riff. It's jazz. It's like
Speaker 2: watching the jazz play and you are one of the
Speaker 2: collaborators in the band working with a master jazz player.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, you know, if I may use
Speaker 2: jazz as analogy, you're there and you're just like watching,
Speaker 2: just going. I handed him the trumpet, but holy cow,
Speaker 2: I didn't know he was gonna do that with it.
Speaker 3: Right right right right right, yeah, you know, I mean
Speaker 3: it's like, yeah, you know, I mean, if you're gonna
Speaker 3: run with you, allow me to run with that analogy
Speaker 3: a little bit. It's like, if you know, if we're
Speaker 3: playing jazz, then then then in that you know, in
Speaker 3: those situations, I'm really just trying to make sure everybody's
Speaker 3: in tune.
Speaker 2: Oh great, and yeah, we just want to make.
Speaker 3: Sure that where it's just trying to like, you know,
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, I get it now, we're going to go,
Speaker 3: oh we're going to D all right, cool, let's play
Speaker 3: D artist. Well you're a little sharp, you know, like,
Speaker 3: let's just like just sort of attenuated a little bit enough,
Speaker 3: you know, I And you know, it's that's that's a
Speaker 3: wonderful thing about this job is watching how people make
Speaker 3: movies and learning how there are different types of movies,
Speaker 3: you know, different ways to maze movies, you know, and
Speaker 3: also learning about the kinds of movies that you want
Speaker 3: to make, you know. I mean it's like every time
Speaker 3: I finish a film, I I think about the types
Speaker 3: of collaboratives I'm going to seek out too, you know,
Speaker 3: and the types of work I'm interested in doing the
Speaker 3: things I'm less interested in doing. And you know, I
Speaker 3: am definitely on one, you know. I I quite like
Speaker 3: the kind of surgical type of filmmaking. I like puzzle
Speaker 3: pieces of figuring out how to you know, you know,
Speaker 3: like I you know, Hitchcock is like my filmmaker. You know,
Speaker 3: there's sort of like the puzzle of you know, show
Speaker 3: the person seeing something, that show the audience what they see.
Speaker 3: You know, even that you know it's a vast simplification
Speaker 3: of it, but you know, thinking about how to break
Speaker 3: a scene down into a spare bones and and tell
Speaker 3: the story that ways is is the type of filmmaking
Speaker 3: at the moment anyway that I'm interested in. But you know,
Speaker 3: it's like.
Speaker 2: You got some good collaborators to do that kind of
Speaker 2: I mean David, for I mean, as you talk about
Speaker 2: puzzle piece directors, he is, He's definitely that guy, and
Speaker 2: Michael exactly the same. I mean, but David specifically, like
Speaker 2: he is. Look, I mean not to blow smoke up
Speaker 2: David's ask, but he is our Hitchcock. He is our Kubrick.
Speaker 2: There will never be anyone like Kubrick or Hitchcock. But
Speaker 2: in our generation there's very few filmmakers who are as
Speaker 2: surgical as him. And then Michael has his. There's never
Speaker 2: gonna be another Michael Man, and people will be studying
Speaker 2: Michael Mann movies in film schools one hundred years from now.
Speaker 2: And same thing with David, you know, and and same
Speaker 2: thing with Tarantino and Nolan and some of these other
Speaker 2: greats there, there's a handful that are our generations Hitchcock's
Speaker 2: and our generations Kubricks that you just you sit back
Speaker 2: and you get you're lucky enough to get to work
Speaker 2: with some of these guys. Man, I mean, you must
Speaker 2: smile every day going to work. I'd imagine most days.
Speaker 3: Most mostly I'm worried about whether or not that conor
Speaker 3: got parked in the right place.
Speaker 2: Is the techno creme here? Why is it the technology? Exactly?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know so, I mean you know it's like,
Speaker 3: go ahead.
Speaker 2: No, no, if there's look, if you had a chance
Speaker 2: to go back and tell your younger self, who's just
Speaker 2: starting off in the business, one thing, what would that
Speaker 2: thing be?
Speaker 3: It has nothing to do with the equipment. Oh great,
Speaker 3: thank you, I'm worrying about it.
Speaker 2: Thank you. You mean to tell me I don't need
Speaker 2: the latest, I don't need to shoot twenty four K
Speaker 2: or forty eight K.
Speaker 3: No. No, by And you're coming from and no.
Speaker 2: But the thing is that you're coming from the perspective
Speaker 2: of one of the most technical directors and working with
Speaker 2: David who is he's always on the cutting edge with
Speaker 2: reds and and what you guys did with MANK and
Speaker 2: and even then you're saying, it's it's not always about
Speaker 2: the latest camera, the latest lens, or the latest lights.
Speaker 3: No, I mean some some of the best thoughts we
Speaker 3: did in mank with it with a sixty wild light bulb,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean it's it's I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: it's sure. I mean technology helps you, you know, technology
Speaker 3: makes things easier, but it doesn't give you better taste.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't it doesn't give you better ideas, you know.
Speaker 3: And and when I was younger, if I had spent
Speaker 3: more time thinking about the ideas and less time thinking
Speaker 3: about the equipment, I would have had better ideas, you know.
Speaker 3: And you know I got, you know, because you get
Speaker 3: seduced you know, you get seduced in films by you know,
Speaker 3: you read Americans for magazine, and I see your magazine
Speaker 3: and there are all the advertisements, and everyone's trying to
Speaker 3: sell you this and that, and and you start to think, oh, man,
Speaker 3: if I shoot three five milimeters on my film, my
Speaker 3: film will be better. You know, If I get an
Speaker 3: eighteen K then I'll be able, you know. And it's
Speaker 3: you know, it's funny. It's like the longer I spend
Speaker 3: this business, you know, and the more I have to
Speaker 3: kind of repent for the the the requests I make
Speaker 3: to producers, the more I remind them that that the
Speaker 3: things I need are generally scheduled driven. They're not aesthetic,
Speaker 3: you know. You know, for example, if if if I
Speaker 3: you know, if I can shoot the establishing shot at
Speaker 3: at nine am, when it's backlit and it's beautiful and
Speaker 3: there's you know, missed in the air and stuff, I
Speaker 3: don't need anything. I just need the camera. But if
Speaker 3: the actor is available till three p m, then I
Speaker 3: need all this stuff, you know, And and that's that's
Speaker 3: unfortunately the problem of the big movie. You know, the
Speaker 3: small movie is nimble enough to make that choice. Yeah, great,
Speaker 3: you need to shoot a nine am. Let's shoo at
Speaker 3: nine am. You know, let's figure that out, you know,
Speaker 3: on on a on a big Marvel production or or
Speaker 3: or you know, a big war movie like Devotion. You
Speaker 3: know where you're sort of your balance saying, you know,
Speaker 3: you're balancing aircraft and you know when when when the
Speaker 3: when the ceiling is lifted so the planes can take
Speaker 3: on off. Can't necessarily shoot it at six am when
Speaker 3: the light is perfect, you have to shoot at eleven
Speaker 3: or whatever you know, so you have to figure out
Speaker 3: how what you know, and the compromise has become about
Speaker 3: seeing that they picture and not being myopic around what
Speaker 3: is what is immediately important to the image versus what's
Speaker 3: important to the movie, you know, And and that's kind
Speaker 3: of I think ultimately the biggest lesson for me has
Speaker 3: been like learning to recognize how my needs impact the
Speaker 3: rest of the film and how to best navigate it
Speaker 3: and sort of advocate for what I think is important
Speaker 3: without detracting from what's important for the film as a whole,
Speaker 3: you know. And I think a lot of youngertin photographers
Speaker 3: fall in this trap of like, no, no, no, it
Speaker 3: has I have to shoot anamorphic and it has to
Speaker 3: you know, and then you know, they spend four thousand
Speaker 3: dollars a week on lenses and then there's no money
Speaker 3: for costume.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
Speaker 2: and now back to the show, you.
Speaker 3: Know what I mean. And it's like, so it's it's
Speaker 3: you know, it's it's important to be thoughtful. I think
Speaker 3: about how how you how you absorbed the resources of
Speaker 3: the movie as a cinematographer, and how you how you
Speaker 3: advocate for the things you need.
Speaker 2: Now, you brought up Devotion, which is your new movie,
Speaker 2: which another small independent film you've been doing. Can you
Speaker 2: can you tell everybody a little bit about the movie.
Speaker 2: And I mean it looks gorgeous, man, I saw the
Speaker 2: trailer for it. It absolutely looks stunning. Again, you get into
Speaker 2: play with some beautiful toys and a vintage piece. I mean,
Speaker 2: you can really get to have some fun. Man, You're
Speaker 2: having some fun with some nice toys. And I know you,
Speaker 2: I know you had to suffer in Italy with Michael
Speaker 2: mann On on the latest film.
Speaker 3: I'm sure.
Speaker 2: I'm sure the food was horrible, the weather was bad.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're you're you're living a tough life, sir.
Speaker 2: But uh, but Devotion, tell me about devotion.
Speaker 3: Devotion? You know, I got I got a phone call
Speaker 3: from a from a friend of mine, Bruce Franklin, who
Speaker 3: had been a first d D that I had worked
Speaker 3: with a lot with Joe Kazinski and and you know,
Speaker 3: old friend of mine, and he called me up one day.
Speaker 3: I was in Chicago doing the finale of Fargo, the
Speaker 3: TV show Fargo, and my phone rang and he said, Hey,
Speaker 3: I got this script you should read. I'm producing, and
Speaker 3: I said, I didn't know that he had started producing.
Speaker 3: And I said, okay, cool, Bruce, Yeah, I send it over.
Speaker 3: And he sent me the script and I read it.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, this is so great.
Speaker 3: You know, it was it was it's a war film,
Speaker 3: but it was really a drama in the under under
Speaker 3: the the guys of a war film and uh and
Speaker 3: it was period. And he's he you know, he said, look,
Speaker 3: I've got airplanes. We're going to shoot it for real.
Speaker 3: We're not going to do a bunch of visual effects.
Speaker 3: We're going to really have an area in it. They're
Speaker 3: going to go up and they're going to put these
Speaker 3: planes in the air. We're going to choreograph this. And
Speaker 3: I think you're the guy to do it. I want
Speaker 3: you to get with the director. And I said, okay, cool,
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, get me on the phone. So we met.
Speaker 3: I met JD. Dillar the next day and we had
Speaker 3: you don't know, two and a half hour meeting and
Speaker 3: we just talked about everything. We talked about the movie,
Speaker 3: we also talked about life, and we talked about cinema,
Speaker 3: and we talked about history and race and politics and
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of things that related to the movie,
Speaker 3: and a lot of things that didn't just because we
Speaker 3: became fast friends and and I, you know, I finished
Speaker 3: the zoom call and my phone rang and it was
Speaker 3: Bruce and he said, hey, do you want the job? Said, yeah,
Speaker 3: of course I want the show. So we did it,
Speaker 3: and it was great because I had, you know, they
Speaker 3: had they knew that they had they had bitten off
Speaker 3: a big chunk, and they wanted to do it right.
Speaker 3: And the producers really, you know, wanted to support the film,
Speaker 3: and they were prepared to sort of support the film.
Speaker 3: So I had a lot of prep time, and I
Speaker 3: sat with Jad and we you know, we we sat
Speaker 3: in la and we storyboarded and you know, brainstormed ideas
Speaker 3: about how we could approach and what worked and what didn't.
Speaker 3: We talk to people, you know, the guys that had
Speaker 3: done done Kirk and the guys that had done Midway,
Speaker 3: and we you know, we sort of just did our
Speaker 3: research and we looked at stuff we liked and stuff
Speaker 3: we didn't like. And and then you know, when Thomas
Speaker 3: production design that joined the movie, and then the three
Speaker 3: of us would sit down and talk about different ways
Speaker 3: to call you know, how much of the aircraft carrier
Speaker 3: to build and you know, how are we going to
Speaker 3: shoot the buck stuff? And what can we do for real?
Speaker 3: And you know, then Kevin LaRosa and Mike fitz Maurice
Speaker 3: joined the party and they were there are our aerial unit.
Speaker 3: Mike fitz Maurice's Ariel DP and Kevin the aerial coordinator
Speaker 3: kind of second unit director, aerial director anyway, got involved
Speaker 3: and that was like a whole new world open up
Speaker 3: to me. And I, you know, I hadn't I had
Speaker 3: shots and aarials, but mostly like helicopter establishing shots, very
Speaker 3: simple things, you know, And and they had a whole
Speaker 3: differ a set of tools available to them that they
Speaker 3: started to explain to us what they could do. And
Speaker 3: we started to you know, hold little model planes up
Speaker 3: in the air and storyboard and shoot you know, kind
Speaker 3: of low fi previous videos and talk about how those
Speaker 3: sequences were going to work together. And you know, it
Speaker 3: was great. We had an incredible experience making that movie.
Speaker 3: It was you know, it was a lot of people
Speaker 3: that really really cared about it and wanted the support
Speaker 3: JD and the project, and we're excited and we had
Speaker 3: producers that were just incredibly supportive through the whole process
Speaker 3: and really wanted us to succeed, and we're willing to
Speaker 3: listen to an outlook that maybe otherwise would have been expensive.
Speaker 3: You know, there was certainly plenty of visual effects of
Speaker 3: the leaching store problems that that would have saved them
Speaker 3: a lot of money, but I think would have would
Speaker 3: have been detrimental to the film. And and you know
Speaker 3: that fortunately for us, they agreed and they were willing
Speaker 3: to go down the road with us and try to
Speaker 3: figure out ways to do a lot of it for real.
Speaker 3: On that you know that I think in the end
Speaker 3: paid dividends. So you know, I'm really thankful to them
Speaker 3: that they we're forward thinking in that way. You know,
Speaker 3: I guess maybe it's backward thinking because that's how it
Speaker 3: would have been done seventy five years ago.
Speaker 2: So so they pulled like a top gun Maverick. They're like, no, no,
Speaker 2: we're going to put the we're going to put the
Speaker 2: planes in the air, and we're going.
Speaker 3: To shoot this.
Speaker 2: Do you see a movement because you're working in the
Speaker 2: big in the studio projects like that, do you see
Speaker 2: a movement or almost a slight backlash against so much
Speaker 2: visual effects, so heavy visual effects and they're like, no,
Speaker 2: let's get it for real, because I mean even Nolan
Speaker 2: on on Dark Night when he flipped that eighteen wheeler,
Speaker 2: he did it for real, you know, and you can
Speaker 2: tell and you can sense it. There's something organic on
Speaker 2: screen that when you're able to do things real you
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's one of the main reasons
Speaker 2: Top Gun Maverick was such a massive hit, among other reasons,
Speaker 2: but just something we just haven't seen before. You don't
Speaker 2: see that in today's world. So I'm assuming that, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, what you're doing, what you guys did in
Speaker 2: Devotion is going to be you know, similar in the
Speaker 2: sense that you did it. But do you feel that
Speaker 2: as a cinematographer that there that there's a movement towards like,
Speaker 2: let's get to see if we could do this for real,
Speaker 2: back back the way it was done even twenty years ago.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, you know, it's like, look,
Speaker 3: Richard Donner did it, you know. I mean, I think
Speaker 3: it's I I think, you know, I mean, I yeah, look,
Speaker 3: the audience knows we can do anything, you know. I mean,
Speaker 3: the audience seeing Guardians of the Galaxy, you know, no
Speaker 3: disrespect the Guardians of the but they know that, you know,
Speaker 3: they know we can take them base, they know we
Speaker 3: can put you on an alien planet. We know we
Speaker 3: can you know, fly to the center of the Earth.
Speaker 3: So it's it's not you know that it's it. It
Speaker 3: used to be the David Copperfield event magic show. You know,
Speaker 3: that's what the audience would go to the theater for. Right,
Speaker 3: they go for the spectacle, And now I think the
Speaker 3: audience goes for the car, the slight of hand card trick.
Speaker 3: You know, they want to they want to feel it.
Speaker 3: They they would prefer to they would prefer to not
Speaker 3: even notice that it's happening instead of seeing this kind
Speaker 3: of all the razzle dazzle on screen. That's my opinion anyway.
Speaker 3: But so I I think, I think when you can
Speaker 3: do it for real, and you can do it for
Speaker 3: real with with the assistance of visual effects, maybe you know,
Speaker 3: you clean up the you clean up the stick that's
Speaker 3: holding the camera on the plane, it's different than making
Speaker 3: a plane, you know what I mean. And it looks
Speaker 3: different and it and it feels it feels different. And
Speaker 3: and I also think in some ways it forces filmmakers
Speaker 3: that that mode of thinking and and and look there's
Speaker 3: there's plenty of visual effects and devotion, but but we
Speaker 3: set some rules for ourselves and say, okay, well we're
Speaker 3: gonna put the camera. We're only we're only gonna put
Speaker 3: the camera in places where we could put a camera
Speaker 3: on a real aircraft. So we're not going to you know,
Speaker 3: we're not going to put the camera the plane in
Speaker 3: front of a blue screen and fly around, fly the
Speaker 3: camera around it on a techno crane and give you
Speaker 3: all these crazy shops and go, you know, go through
Speaker 3: the landing gear and up over the flaps, and you know,
Speaker 3: we're not going to do that stuff. We're going to
Speaker 3: do We're going to do things that you could really
Speaker 3: do basically, that you know that apply to physics to
Speaker 3: some degree. And and I think you're going to see
Speaker 3: more more of that. And I think actually, you know,
Speaker 3: Tom Cruise deserves a tremendous amount of credit for as
Speaker 3: someone who is is promoting the idea and saying, hey, look,
Speaker 3: you know, cinema is important and it's worth protecting, and
Speaker 3: it's a national treasure and we have to and we
Speaker 3: have to you know, the audience deserves something better than
Speaker 3: than then, you know, pre visiting the virtual camera through
Speaker 3: you know, through the wormhole or whatever. You know. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's there's there's it has to be story forward and
Speaker 3: thoughtful and considerate and respectful to the audience, you know.
Speaker 2: And and again there is I mean, Pandora is not
Speaker 2: going to be shot practically, you know, that's not a
Speaker 2: practical You can't go to fly to Pandora and shoot
Speaker 2: those things practically. So there is a place for that
Speaker 2: kind of storytelling. You know, when you go into the
Speaker 2: quantum Relemant man probably not going to build a set
Speaker 2: or a miniature for that. It's gonna right, But if
Speaker 2: it's something that can be ext it's something that can
Speaker 2: be done, it should try to be done, especially at
Speaker 2: that budget level.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And you know I think also,
Speaker 3: you know, with all due respect to to other filmmakers,
Speaker 3: it's it when you do it. If you do it digitally,
Speaker 3: you can make it up later. If you do it
Speaker 3: for real, you have to decide in advance.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
Speaker 3: And that's intimidating to some people. You know, you have
Speaker 3: practical considerations you have to think about. You know, if
Speaker 3: you're if you're Dick Donner and you're gonna you know,
Speaker 3: you're going to drop the drop the gasoline truck, you know,
Speaker 3: for real, with a real pyrotechnic explosion, you have to
Speaker 3: be considered of how big the explosion is going to be,
Speaker 3: and how far the camera is going to be, and
Speaker 3: what the you know, what the location considerations are, and
Speaker 3: you have to plan it and you have to go
Speaker 3: text out and you have to say, Okay, we're gonna
Speaker 3: put the camera here, and put the camera here, and
Speaker 3: put the camera here, and that we're going to suspend
Speaker 3: it from a truck or we're gonna drop them and
Speaker 3: there's gonna explode them. There's going to be four days
Speaker 3: of clean up, and we're going to pay off all
Speaker 3: the local businesses. And it's you know, like that, it
Speaker 3: requires advanced thought in the way that doing the gasoline truck.
Speaker 3: You know, shooting a plate doesn't right, but there's obvious
Speaker 3: significant advantages to doing it for real. It's just more
Speaker 3: different and it requires, you know, sort of consider It
Speaker 3: requires directing to some degree, you know, can I so,
Speaker 3: I you know, I support that idea. I just I
Speaker 3: just wish more people did it, and I wish and
Speaker 3: it's part of why I like working with older directors
Speaker 3: because they understand that and they they advocate for it,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. They don't go for the
Speaker 3: easy solution because it helps the location department and they
Speaker 3: don't have to pay off that business or whatever. I mean, No, no, no,
Speaker 3: we're going to drop the truck for real and we're
Speaker 3: going to blow it up. You know.
Speaker 2: Can I I have to tell Can I tell you
Speaker 2: a story really quickly because it's this is going to
Speaker 2: exactly what we're talking about. I had Simon West on
Speaker 2: the show, who was a legendary action director, and he
Speaker 2: was telling me how he did the con Air gag
Speaker 2: when the plane crashed into Vegas and they found a
Speaker 2: hotel that was going to be demolished, and like, hold on,
Speaker 2: can we run a plane into the front for our movie?
Speaker 2: And they said yes, and there was it shut down
Speaker 2: Vegas for a minute. But the thing was, and this
Speaker 2: goes to your point of like you have to plan ahead.
Speaker 2: He had six cameras on that on that shot, it
Speaker 2: was a one take you had. There was one take.
Speaker 2: Someone said something over the over the the walkies the
Speaker 2: cameras start. They just took off. But none of the
Speaker 2: cameras were rolling. First A d was like, oh crap,
Speaker 2: oh crap, yeah, to turn it on, turn it on,
Speaker 2: So like to turn it on, we're going, We're going,
Speaker 2: and everyone's like freaking out. And then he's like, I
Speaker 2: had six, but then two four of them didn't work,
Speaker 2: so I had two. And then we're like okay, and
Speaker 2: like he told the whole stories, like three when three
Speaker 2: didn't make it, there's all film, by the way, and
Speaker 2: then the two made it. And then at the end
Speaker 2: we only really one was out of focus because it's
Speaker 2: the first day. D oh, that's right. The crews couldn't.
Speaker 2: The crews were eating a crafty and they everything we
Speaker 2: was going, so the cameras were going and they had
Speaker 2: to run to turn them on. Wow, oh my god.
Speaker 2: So the end they had one shot, one take on
Speaker 2: one angle and that's the angle that got He's like,
Speaker 2: I can't go back and shoot it again. This is
Speaker 2: why you had six. If I would add five, we
Speaker 2: would have been in trouble. But it's a different way
Speaker 2: of knowing about it.
Speaker 3: It is it is, it is, you know, and I
Speaker 3: think I think it's in the sense if filmmaking has
Speaker 3: been made it's it's easier now, you know, it's a
Speaker 3: lot easier. I mean, you know, when I was growing
Speaker 3: up and I was you know, I came out of
Speaker 3: film school with one film, you know, and it was
Speaker 3: like I had, you know, and it was it had
Speaker 3: been transferred to Beta SP and I had a VHS
Speaker 3: tape and I would go and show it to people
Speaker 3: and hand them the VHS tape and look at my movie,
Speaker 3: is ntsc you know? I had a let a box
Speaker 3: on it at great quality, you know, yeah, exactly. And
Speaker 3: then you know, if I wanted to make more copies,
Speaker 3: I had to go find a place that had had
Speaker 3: an SP deck because I couldn't dupe the VHS, you know.
Speaker 3: And it's just like long before TVD. And you know,
Speaker 3: kids come out of film school now and they have
Speaker 3: like six movies that have all been made you know,
Speaker 3: on a red camera or you know, on the Lexo
Speaker 3: or something, and god, I mean I would have been, oh,
Speaker 3: what a privilege, you know, what a tremendous privilege to have.
Speaker 3: And you know, so that that and I think that
Speaker 3: extends outward into cinema. So you know, so when people
Speaker 3: are like, oh, I don't have any opportunities. I'm not
Speaker 3: that empathetic, you know.
Speaker 2: I'll listen. I mean, I spent fifty grand on my
Speaker 2: first demo reel for as a commercial director, shooting on
Speaker 2: thirty five because you had to shoot thirty five and
Speaker 2: I would make beta sp masters and then I would
Speaker 2: convert them to three quarter inch. And that's when I've
Speaker 2: been send out to the agencies because VHS that's that
Speaker 2: was for amateurs. So then it was the cost and
Speaker 2: I had to make with the big clam cases and
Speaker 2: I'd had the FedEx them all over the place, and
Speaker 2: and it was like and now they're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I shot this thing on an iPhone And I'm like
Speaker 2: you sounds a bit.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you know, there was
Speaker 3: no video when I.
Speaker 2: Was you know, when I just came out, there was
Speaker 2: no internet sort of, let's just go there was no internet.
Speaker 2: There's definitely no video. There was no video online, especially
Speaker 2: when I came out. Yeah, not that good video at least. Now,
Speaker 2: when does the Votion come out? Say that again, when
Speaker 2: does the Votion come out?
Speaker 3: Uh? November twenty fourth, right, so just.
Speaker 2: For the holidays, And it seems like a it seems
Speaker 2: like cinematic experience. You got to go see it in
Speaker 2: the movies.
Speaker 3: I I hope everyone does. Yeah, we did it. There's
Speaker 3: an Imax release. If you have an Imax theater near you,
Speaker 3: you can see it. That's exciting. It's the first film
Speaker 3: I'm done it's been Imax and yeah, I think it's
Speaker 3: you know it's It's certainly a story and a film
Speaker 3: that deserves to be seen day. It was intended to
Speaker 3: be seen big. You know, we shot up to be
Speaker 3: seen big.
Speaker 2: Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions, ask
Speaker 2: all my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker
Speaker 2: trying to break into the business today.
Speaker 3: Everybody's going to tell you now and that your work
Speaker 3: isn't any good and you can't do it, and you
Speaker 3: got to ignore them fair enough?
Speaker 2: What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn,
Speaker 2: whether in the film business or.
Speaker 3: In life, that that there's always another job. But but
Speaker 3: you have to uh, there's there's always another job, and
Speaker 3: the time off is is more important than the time
Speaker 3: at work. So you've got to prioritize. You have to
Speaker 3: you have to prioritize your time off with the people
Speaker 3: that you love. That's that's that's the thing. That's that's
Speaker 3: most important. I think.
Speaker 2: And as I've talked to a lot of dps in
Speaker 2: my day and worked with the like, dude, the divorce
Speaker 2: rate is pretty high. I mean, it's not it's no joke.
Speaker 2: It's no joke. Especially when you become successful as a DP,
Speaker 2: the balance is really difficult. It's difficult to do. So
Speaker 2: that's something they don't tell you when you start walking
Speaker 2: down this path.
Speaker 3: No, they don't, But that was really I mean, look,
Speaker 3: you know, I I think I spent twenty eight days
Speaker 3: in my bed last year, you know. I mean, it's it's,
Speaker 3: it's it's challenging. You know. I spend a lot of
Speaker 3: time in hotels, a lot of traveling, and it's a
Speaker 3: lot to ask if your loved ones and your family
Speaker 3: and it's, yeah, you know, it's they don't. You're right.
Speaker 3: They don't teach you that in film school and they should.
Speaker 3: And you know, when I speak to students or whatever,
Speaker 3: I try to I try to say, listen, you know,
Speaker 3: if you want to get in this, make sure that
Speaker 3: you're ready for that, you know, because it's it's, it's
Speaker 3: it can be quite quite challenging.
Speaker 2: For sure, it's the Carnee life, sir. We are just
Speaker 2: carnies and putting up tents, putting on shows and taking
Speaker 2: the tent down, getting everything on the train and going
Speaker 2: to the next location setting up shop again. We're cardials
Speaker 2: at the end of the day. Now and last question,
Speaker 2: three of your favorite films of all time?
Speaker 3: Oh god, how much time do you have? That's a
Speaker 3: long list.
Speaker 2: Just three, just three of your three of your favorite
Speaker 2: films that come up in your mind today?
Speaker 3: Oh my god. I mean, I you know, if people
Speaker 3: ask me that question all the time, I think Chinatown's
Speaker 3: way up there. Close Encounters, mm hmmm. Probably. God. Now
Speaker 3: you're now you're gonna make me pick a number three.
Speaker 3: You know, I should pick a I should pick a
Speaker 3: foreign film because it's underrepresented in the list fair enough enough,
Speaker 3: and my colleagues will judge me. But I'm not going
Speaker 3: to do that. I mean, I think Raiders Lust Start probably.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's like those I just think
Speaker 3: about the movies that I They are the movies I
Speaker 3: admire and I respond to creatively, and then they are
Speaker 3: the movies that I have seen a hundred times, and
Speaker 3: that is one of them. Is It's like one of
Speaker 3: those movies that I've just probably I've probably seen it
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty times, yea.
Speaker 2: And they move and they moved the medium forward. All
Speaker 2: three of those movies moved the medium forward in one way,
Speaker 2: shape or form. And Steven for sure, And I can't
Speaker 2: even start talking about Steven. I mean, Jesus, I mean,
Speaker 2: I've had so many people on the show who've worked
Speaker 2: with Steven, and I just yeah, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: gush over Stephen, but yeah, but brother man, thank you
Speaker 2: so much for coming on the show, sharing your sharing
Speaker 2: your experiences with us. And I can't wait to see
Speaker 2: Devotion and I hope everybody goes out in the theater
Speaker 2: and actually sees it it's in a theater just like
Speaker 2: they did Top Gun Maverick and enjoy the real life
Speaker 2: spectacle that you kind of put together. Brothers. So I
Speaker 2: really appreciate your time in and continue doing some great where.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to see Ferrari and Killer That those
Speaker 2: two another two films. I mean again, you're you're doing
Speaker 2: okay for yourself right now, sir.
Speaker 3: Thanks Al Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying one day at a.
Speaker 2: Time, you know, a pleasure, brother, thanks appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, man cheerus.
Speaker 2: I want to thank Eric so much for coming on
Speaker 2: the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Tribe today.
Speaker 2: Thank you again so much. Eric. If you want to
Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
Speaker 2: including how to watch his new film Devotion, head over
Speaker 2: to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward
Speaker 2: slash three ninety one. Thank you so much for listening, guys,
Speaker 2: as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk
Speaker 2: to you soon.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof
Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.