WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:07.000 You are listening to the IFAH podcast Network. For more 2 00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:12.720 amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. 3 00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:16.280 Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number three ninety one. 4 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:19.839 Hollywood is great. I also think it's stupid and small 5 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:24.920 minded and shortsighted. David Fincher broadcasting from a dark, windowless 6 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:27.399 room in Hollywood when we really should be working on 7 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:28.199 that next draft. 8 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:32.520 It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and 9 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.000 business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your 10 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.479 screenplay bulletproof. 11 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:41.960 And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another 12 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:45.000 episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, 13 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:50.560 Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. 14 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:51.000 Now. 15 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:56.000 Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses 16 00:00:56.039 --> 00:00:59.000 on the kind of project you are in the goals 17 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.840 of the project, so we actually break it down by 18 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:05.879 three categories micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. 19 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:08.200 There's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's 20 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:10.719 used to reading temppole movies when your movie is going 21 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.200 to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we 22 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:16.280 wanted to focus on that At Bulletproof script Coverage, our 23 00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:21.640 readers have worked with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, 24 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.480 Scott Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. 25 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:28.959 So if you need your screenplay or TV script covered 26 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:35.079 by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys, 27 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:41.280 today on the show, we have award winning cinematographer Eric Messersmidt. 28 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:43.840 And Eric has had the privilege of working with some 29 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:47.760 amazing people over the course of his career, including the 30 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:52.040 legendary David Fincher and Michael Mann, just to name a few. 31 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.879 In this conversation, we talk about how he collaborated with 32 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.280 both of these giants in the industry, how he approaches 33 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:03.000 the process of lighting and shooting and telling a story visually, 34 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:05.640 and we talk about his amazing work in the new 35 00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:09.159 film Devotion, which is out in theaters. So, without any 36 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:13.879 further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Eric Meshersmith. I'd 37 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:17.240 like to welcome to the show, Eric Messerschmidt. Did I 38 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:17.919 get it right? Sir? 39 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:20.759 You sure did? He nailed it. 40 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:23.120 I appreciate it. Man thanks very much for coming on 41 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:23.400 the show. 42 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:27.439 Brother, Thanks so much for having me. Happy to be here. 43 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.120 So, you've you've done a few things in the business 44 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:32.680 so far, you know, as you're a young man and 45 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:36.199 you've you've been playing with some heavy hitters over over 46 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.159 the course of your career. It's pretty interesting. 47 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:44.120 I've been really fortunate. Yeah, I've been really fortunate to 48 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:45.520 work with some great people. 49 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.560 For sure, without questions. So my first question is, man, 50 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:50.719 how did you and why did you want to get 51 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.319 into this insanity that is the film business. 52 00:02:55.840 --> 00:03:02.560 Well, you know, I I was a kid that loved 53 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:04.520 to make stuff. You know, I love to take things apart, 54 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:08.039 I love to build things. I was. I was a 55 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:13.000 terrible athlete, but I was creative. And I like to 56 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:15.439 take photographs, and I like to paint, and I like 57 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.280 to play music. And I was you know, I was, 58 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:22.479 I was doing stuff. And I got involved in in 59 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.719 theater really early when I was a kid, and and 60 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:29.240 I was I was never really interested in performing, but 61 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.479 I was always interested in doing stuff behind the scenes, 62 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:35.800 and that kind of led led me to a life 63 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:37.960 in the movies. I think, you know, to some degree, 64 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:43.240 I like the camaraderie of it. I like the the 65 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:46.919 shared experience of it. And you know, when it came 66 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:49.240 time to go to college and think about what I 67 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:50.719 wanted to do with my life, it just it just 68 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:52.919 sort of seemed like a like a fit. And honestly, 69 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.199 it wasn't so much about the work in the beginning. 70 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:57.080 It was about the experience. You know. It was like 71 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:02.360 about doing stuff up with people really and you know, 72 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:04.879 sort of like you know, photography in the beginning really 73 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:06.520 interested in me. But it's a it's a it's a 74 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.000 it's a solo occupation for the most part, you know, 75 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:12.199 I mean, in most cases anyway, it's like it's you know, 76 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:15.680 it's just you and your camera, which I think can 77 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:18.959 be really meditated. But but but it wasn't really what 78 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:22.319 I wanted. I wanted I wanted to experience with a team, 79 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:27.560 you know. So I just kind of landed in in cinema, 80 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:31.040 I guess, you know, in to film school and came 81 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:34.480 out of it on the other end trying to figure 82 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:36.639 out what to do you know, the next forty years 83 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:37.560 of my life or whatever. 84 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:40.120 It ends up being. Now, you came up in a 85 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:44.279 time where you really needed to kind of go through 86 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.360 the mentoring process and in the in the scope of 87 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:50.240 like you get on set, someone takes you under their wing, 88 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:52.079 and you might have learned some stuff in film school, 89 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:54.279 but it really starts at all the film set and 90 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:55.800 you've kind of worked your way up and you know, 91 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:57.920 to do a lot of gaffing work. You did second 92 00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.319 unit work until you became a cinematographer on your own right. 93 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:06.160 And so many filmmakers today, especially ciner Rock's young cinematographers today, 94 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:08.399 they just come out and they're like, I'm a cinematographer 95 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:12.160 because I have a camera, and and then I've worked 96 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:14.480 with some of them and I go, oh, you you've 97 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:19.319 never seen played runner? Okay, then like it's it's it's 98 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.160 an interesting time because now you know when you and 99 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:24.959 I were coming up, because we're a similar vintage. I'm 100 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.480 a slightly bit older than you, but a little similar vintage. 101 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:30.040 You know, it was so expensive, man, everything was so 102 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:33.240 damn expensive. The gear was so expensive, and you couldn't 103 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:36.439 get access to this stuff, so you really couldn't practice 104 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:38.480 on your I mean, I'm assuming you came up on 105 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:39.199 film as well. 106 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:44.079 I did. I did, Yeah, I mean, I my my 107 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.160 generation of film students, you know, we didn't have HD 108 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:49.279 cameras or I don't. I don't think. You know, when 109 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:50.920 I was in school, we even had a digital and 110 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:52.959 it wasn't even part of the conversation. You know, we 111 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.120 were processing sixteen on year film or you know, the 112 00:05:57.319 --> 00:05:59.839 senior students and the MFA students were shooting in thirty 113 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:02.000 five and you know, it was like an investment to 114 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.000 make a movie at that time. I mean it still is, obviously, 115 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:08.720 but but for us, you know, it's like you had 116 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:11.920 two cans, you know, two four hundred foot rolls of 117 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:14.279 sixty milimeters and you had to make sure it counted. 118 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:14.560 You know. 119 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:19.160 Oh but every time that you know, I know, every 120 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.040 time you heard that little like that's money, that's money 121 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:25.959 just flowing. Now you roll and roll and roll. 122 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:29.639 Yeah, yeah, I mean you know, it was like back 123 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.040 when rehearsal meant something, you know. I you know, I 124 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:37.319 think I'm really glad I had that experience, and I'm 125 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:42.839 glad I did it that way. And you know, I 126 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.759 I think it's important, you know, I mean, I I know, 127 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:49.079 I don't think that what we do, or certainly what 128 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.800 I do for a living, can be learned in school. 129 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.120 I mean there's you know, it's like you learn things 130 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.639 like how to you know, you kind of learn how 131 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:02.160 to how to react to imagery, I think, and how 132 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.399 to critique imagery, and how to think about movies and 133 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:06.319 how to think about you know, the big picture idea 134 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:08.839 of storytelling and stuff to some degree in film school, 135 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:12.360 and you learn about your own taste and what you're 136 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:14.199 attracted to and that kind of thing, and how to 137 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:18.360 communicate with other people and you know, all those skills 138 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:24.720 that are incredibly important. But but you don't learn much 139 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:27.399 technique in film school, you know, because you just don't 140 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:32.360 have enough time. You know. It's like, it's like the 141 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:34.560 film set is a complex environment. You know, it's a 142 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.319 it's a it's an environment of technology and equipment, and 143 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:41.920 it's math and science, and it's also personality, you know, 144 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:45.839 storytelling and creativity, and it's uh, it takes time, I 145 00:07:45.879 --> 00:07:51.079 think to learn how all those things congeal, you know, 146 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:55.319 and and how to navigate it. And so yeah, I mean, 147 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:58.279 I I I really believe that the kind of the 148 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:02.720 mentorship idea or the idea of matriculating through the process 149 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:06.319 is a really good one and something worth protecting, you know. 150 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:07.800 I Mean I came out of film school and I 151 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:10.240 was like I'm a cinematographer. You know, I had business cards. 152 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:12.160 I think I'm you know. 153 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.879 A business card, and that's all that's all you need 154 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:14.519 is a business card. 155 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:18.439 Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. Take it until you make it right. 156 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.000 But you know, and I got to l A and 157 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:22.800 I you know, I had shot some music videos and 158 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:24.360 some short films and I was like, I'm going to 159 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:25.600 be a DP and I'm going to do it. And 160 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:27.639 then of course the reality of life hit me and 161 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.879 I had to. You know, my parents, you know, we 162 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.879 didn't have any money. I didn't come from a wealthy family. 163 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:35.639 You know. My parents are teachers and librarian. You know, 164 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:38.759 it's like we so I you know, I kind of 165 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:40.240 had to. I had to make it on my own 166 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.399 to some degree, you know, and and figure out how 167 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:44.159 to make a living and pay my rent and all 168 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:48.159 that stuff. And uh And in the end, I wouldn't 169 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:49.720 have traded I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know. 170 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.720 I mean I got to meet so many great people, 171 00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:54.720 and I I learned from them. You know, you absorb 172 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:57.480 their their technique and their their process. And I think 173 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:00.679 that's crucial. It's certainly been incredibly importan in my life. 174 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:04.600 Yeah, you worked on as a as you started really 175 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:07.240 coming up as a gaffer, and you did a You 176 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:08.799 gaffed on a lot of big shows. I mean you 177 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:13.000 worked on Ant Man, I know with Russell. Russell's with Russell, 178 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:18.279 who's the sweetest human being ever, Like he is such 179 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:21.639 a lovely, soft spoken guy. And I'm like, how did 180 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:24.240 you work with James Cameron for so many years? Like 181 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.240 how how did those two personalities work? 182 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:27.679 Man? 183 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:29.960 And then he's like, I'll tell you some stuff off air, 184 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:34.519 but oh, I'm sure you've I'm sure you've heard a 185 00:09:34.519 --> 00:09:39.159 couple of stories as well on set. But but as 186 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.120 so as a gaffer, can you explain to everybody what 187 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:44.279 it meant to come up as a gaffer? Because the 188 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.080 dps I've worked with in my career who came up 189 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:52.000 as gaffers, I find are so well versed on set. 190 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.039 They just will be right back after a word from 191 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:04.120 our sponsor and now back to the show. There's just 192 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.399 a different way of looking at the set. How to 193 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:09.559 do a setup. You've already been doing what you're telling 194 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:11.440 somebody else to do, because you're like, yeah, I just 195 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:13.679 set that over here and then they just do their thing. 196 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:15.759 How did that prepare you How did that prepare you 197 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:16.279 to be a DP? 198 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:21.840 Well, you know, I think there's a couple of things. 199 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.279 And look, everyone's got their own process, and everyone has 200 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:27.200 their own, you know, their their own path. For me, 201 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:32.440 I was you know, I was lucky. I I liked lighting, 202 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.399 you know, I liked the I liked the stuff and 203 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.000 initial you know, I like the process of being on 204 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.679 the set and getting in the mix of it. You know, 205 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.320 you know, when you when you're a gaffer, uh, you're 206 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:48.399 in the movie quite early. You know, you're you're you're 207 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.600 in a lot of the early conversations, depending on how 208 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:55.320 how much the director photography chooses to involve you, you're 209 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:57.240 you know, you're off and on the early scouts. You're 210 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:59.320 certainly on the text scouts. You're in the production office. 211 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:03.159 You're negotiating with the producers. You're negotiating for equipment and 212 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:05.759 you know, labor resources and stuff, and you're you know, 213 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:08.519 you're oftentimes in meetings with the director and trying to 214 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:10.559 figure out how to accomplish certain things. And you're in 215 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:14.279 a great position to observe those conversations happen as well 216 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:15.600 as you know, a bit of a fly on the 217 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.279 wall in a way that you know, camera operators and 218 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:21.480 assistance are not you know, you're you're camera operator. You're 219 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:23.639 rarely on a tech scout. You're very rarely in the 220 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:25.840 office and the prep and you know, you may have 221 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:28.399 intimate conversations with a DP and the director about how 222 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.120 they're going to approach certain things. But but but I 223 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.120 think when you're a gaffer, you're really kind of in 224 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.639 the thick of it. And for that, you know, for 225 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.679 me anyway, it was incredibly helpful to learn how to 226 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:40.799 prep and how to you know, learning how to read 227 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:44.159 blueprints and draft and how to communicate with the art department. 228 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:46.519 You know, you're you know, and I was a gaffer. 229 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.879 I spent a lot of time in production designers offices 230 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.519 and art director's offices and sitting in there with the draftsmen, 231 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:56.440 and you know, you're you're you you know, you learn 232 00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:58.559 about all that stuff and you have to get good 233 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:00.320 at it quickly if you're going to survive, you know, 234 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:06.960 so that you know that process and that that kind 235 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:10.080 of part of my life was was incredibly helpful to me. 236 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:14.519 And then of course you know, that's it doesn't even 237 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:17.159 include all the conversations you have with the DP uh 238 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.960 in PREV then also obviously during your you know, during 239 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:23.919 during the shoot, you know, when you're shooting your you know, 240 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.120 at least when I'm a DP, my closest ally is 241 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:29.399 always my gaffer. You know, I'm They're the person you know, 242 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.759 they're you know, kind of the most effective weapon that 243 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:36.159 I have. And also you know the shoulder that I 244 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:40.639 cry on most cases, you know, so you know, because 245 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:42.559 they're sort of you know, the gaffer is in a 246 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:49.159 really good position to kind of observe objectively about what's 247 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.679 going on and on the set. You know, the operators 248 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.159 often in the mix, they're there with the actors, they're 249 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:56.759 there with the director, they're you know, they're they're working 250 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:00.639 every shot, and there there's hyper involved in gaffer is 251 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.440 you know, working in a setup and getting a setup right, 252 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.120 and then they're in a position to kind of step 253 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:09.639 back and watch the shot take shape. And so I 254 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:11.960 find my gaffer is a really good person to kind 255 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:16.519 of turn to for objection objective feedback of what's going 256 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.120 on and how the shot is taking shape and what 257 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.159 they think could be improved and all that stuff. I mean, 258 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:23.200 you know, not not always even just in lighting, it's 259 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:25.600 in terms of generally what we're doing, and you know, 260 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:28.679 as filmmakers, and so you know, I always when I 261 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.639 look for gaffer, you know, I look for filmmaker first 262 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:36.600 and foremost, you know, beyond what their what their lighting 263 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:40.759 skill might be, or their personnel management skill is. You know, No, 264 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:43.960 there's something I'm really glad I came up that way. 265 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.360 You know, you know, no, no question, no question. And 266 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:50.679 there's something that that they don't talk about very often anywhere, 267 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:54.000 let alone in film school, is the politics on set. 268 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.200 There are politics that you have to deal with within 269 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.200 the crew. There's different politics groups. There's the producer and 270 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:04.159 the directors, but even just within the camera department there's 271 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:06.720 politics that you know and on set and on you know, 272 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:09.799 the production designer. How do you approach dealing because I'm 273 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:13.600 assuming it hasn't always been a smooth, smooth coast. The 274 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:19.159 entire career you've had, you've probably run across some politics 275 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:20.679 on set and how to deal with it and how 276 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:23.200 to properly you know, not step on people's toes, and 277 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:25.639 how to even fight for your own you know, as 278 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:29.360 a DP, even fight for your own vision while still 279 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.279 serving the director. But there might be other departments that 280 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.200 are pushing on you because it's easier for them, but 281 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:38.399 might not serve the movie. There's all sorts of agendas 282 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.600 on set that they just people don't talk about. So 283 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:42.759 can you kind of discuss that a little bit without 284 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:44.399 obviously naming apps. 285 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:48.679 Sure, No, you're you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, 286 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.919 the film set, film set is full of creative people. 287 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.000 You know, people get in the movie business because they 288 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.720 they want to They want to contribute, you know, and 289 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:03.240 they want to participate. And I you know, I think 290 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.559 I think generally people in movies sets and film crew 291 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:13.240 they have the best intentions. You know, generally people you know, 292 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:17.200 they really want to make a great movie. They want 293 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.960 to they want to do the work, they want to participate. 294 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:24.120 But also, you know, a lot of the work is 295 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:27.679 sometimes just service job, you know, move this from here 296 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:30.879 to there, do this, do that, and and that can happen, 297 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.080 you know, for someone in my position with a director. 298 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:35.720 You know, if you're paired with a really strong director 299 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:37.360 and I just need to put a twenty nine millimeters 300 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.600 lens here, that's the shot, twenty nine million lens here, 301 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:42.679 you know, and you may personally think, God, it'd be 302 00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:44.480 so much better on a thirty five people back a 303 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:46.519 little bit, you know, but you have to be careful about, 304 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:51.639 you know, when you assert yourself, you know, and you 305 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:53.759 have to read the room and understand what's going on 306 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:59.799 and sort of you know, h it's it's you know, 307 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:02.399 it's about timing, you know, and and and you're right, 308 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.120 it's it's there are people with agendas, and there are 309 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.480 people that desperately want to be heard, and there are 310 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:14.159 people who who are who get frustrated when their voice 311 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.840 is not heard, you know, and and and then sometimes 312 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:20.960 you have to deal with that, you know, and and 313 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:23.120 it's you know, it's that is part of the job, 314 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:24.919 for sure, you know. I mean, there's there's a bit 315 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.320 of air traffic control and personality management with being a 316 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.559 director photography, especially in a bigger movie, you know, where 317 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:33.360 there's you know, you might have an operator who's very 318 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.720 outspoken and wants to communicate straight with the director, and 319 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:37.600 you have to figure out how to you know, when 320 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:39.919 to assert yourself into that conversation, when to allow that 321 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:42.679 conversation to happen. How involved you want to get if 322 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.840 you know decisions are being made that are outside of 323 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:49.200 your uh, you know, what you think might be appropriate 324 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.120 for the scene, when to interject without making someone feel bad, 325 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:57.200 et cetera. You know, and it's it can be complicated. Uh, 326 00:16:57.399 --> 00:16:59.799 you know, it happens with production designers too, you know. 327 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.759 So how do you if you're a director of photography, how 328 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:04.720 much ownership do you want to take over things like 329 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.440 color palette, you know, or costume designers production designers too, 330 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.279 you know, you sort of have you know, the director photography, 331 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.480 the production designer, and costume designer are often tasks the 332 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:18.480 sort of forming an aesthetic, the esthetic principles of the movie. 333 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:21.519 You know, you know, obviously with the help and with 334 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.279 the leadership of director, but you're you're you know, in 335 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.440 many cases that you know, those three people I think 336 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:33.039 end up sharing that responsibility. And to be honest with you, 337 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:39.559 probably the director photography gets a disproportion, not a which 338 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:44.160 really should go In many cases it should be more 339 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:47.680 equally shared, I think. But uh, you know, it's it's 340 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:49.960 it's challenging, and you know, I think you hope that 341 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:54.240 you you end up with enough people who are generous 342 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:59.480 and thoughtful and and are able to share themselves creatively. 343 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.039 You know that that you don't run into a lot 344 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:04.160 of problems it's not to say that they don't exist. 345 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:06.200 And you know, I also think that there's something to 346 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:11.319 be said for debate and disagreement, you know, on a set. 347 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:13.839 You know, it's like some of the best work I've 348 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.559 done has come because a production designer and I disagreed 349 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:19.799 about a direction to go on a particular set, or 350 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.880 a particular way to design something, or you know, especially 351 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.599 like complicated physical effects, you know, sort of things like 352 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.480 that that need that you know, that are that are 353 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:31.680 different than a couple of walls and a camera. You know, 354 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:36.960 it's those oftentimes, if you know, two people meet and 355 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:38.799 they're strong minded and it's like, well let's do this now, 356 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:40.279 and I think we should do this, and then you know, 357 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:42.920 if it's a safe space creatively, then you work something out. 358 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.279 If it's not a safe space, that's where it gets ugly, 359 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:49.400 you know. But I do think, you know, that's sort 360 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:51.880 of the idea of it being a place for ideas 361 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:58.000 that you can then you know, debate is important. But 362 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:00.039 now don't a sentence you're. 363 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:04.680 Question no, you know, it's it's it's a complicated thing. 364 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.519 It's a very total, you know, you're on eggshells kind 365 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:09.880 of situation and it is a case by case basis. 366 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.119 Like as a cinematographer, you know when you're working with 367 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:16.799 a strong director, and you have worked and are currently 368 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:20.559 working with two of the strongest directors in the business, 369 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:23.880 Michaelman and David Fincher on your on two of two 370 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:28.400 projects are coming out next year. I mean, they're really 371 00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:32.319 strong directors Fincher specifically. You know, I had I had 372 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:35.640 your friend and colleague Jeff Crunlworth on, and you know, 373 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:40.319 I talked all about like David's legendary for being so 374 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:46.160 technically precise with everything, and he's he almost has a 375 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.440 Kubrick esque vibe to him in the sense that he 376 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:52.559 could maybe light the damn thing himself like Kober used 377 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.839 to be able to do so technically good at this stuff. 378 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.559 You know what I mean. We'll be right back after 379 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:05.640 a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. 380 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:10.839 So how do you, as a cinematographer approach working with 381 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.119 someone like David Because I know you worked with mind Hunter, which, 382 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:16.079 by the way, gorgeous love that. Please tell me another 383 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:20.079 season is coming soon? Please? I want another season. I 384 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:22.359 think I'm not the only one. We all want another season. 385 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:24.960 Me too. I'm with you man, I'm with you. 386 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.160 Yeah, but like, how do you like that was a 387 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.880 different that was a different scenario. I think that was 388 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.319 kind of when you first started to work with David 389 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:32.839 directly as a cinematographer. 390 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.039 Correct, that's right, Yeah, that's right. 391 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:37.480 So how did you I? 392 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:43.680 You know, I had seen Jeff work with David and 393 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.839 I you know, I mean I have Jeff Is is 394 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:49.559 an incredible mentor to me, you know, I mean, I 395 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.720 owe him so much. And you know, Jeff is a 396 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:59.319 real master at managing the set and managing the environment 397 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:01.839 and boarding the director he's working with. You know, I 398 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:03.839 mean I've worked with Jeff when I was a gaffer. 399 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:06.640 I worked with Jeff on with many other directors other 400 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.960 than David as well, you know, And Jeff is always 401 00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:12.079 consistent at making you know, he protects the director and 402 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.160 and and supports them, uh you know, whatever way he 403 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:18.680 you know, he can find that they need support. And 404 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.079 I think that's something I learned from Jeff Is. You 405 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.599 know that the role of the cinematographer is fluid, and 406 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.119 it's it's not a binary black and white thing. It's 407 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:29.960 not like Okay, I do this and you do this. 408 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:37.240 It's it's it's much broader than that. Uh, and you know, 409 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.599 I think part of it is you you you meet someone, 410 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.920 you talk to them, and and then you're you know, 411 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.960 you're first down the set. You really learn what it 412 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:48.200 is they need from you or you know, and they 413 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:50.680 don't always tell you, you know. I mean I think is 414 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:56.319 some you know, directors, uh, you know, often think they 415 00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:58.839 need something other than what they what they actually need 416 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:01.640 to you know what I mean, they're they're they're not 417 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:05.440 always the best people at stepping back and observing what 418 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:10.200 it is, how how best they need to be supported, 419 00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:12.119 you know, I mean, I think none of us really are. 420 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:13.920 You know, you sort of have to inquire and ask 421 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:16.480 ask you you know, what what happened then you know. 422 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.440 But uh, you know, David is not that case. Dave 423 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.119 is extremely good at sort of recognizing where he needs 424 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.400 help and what what he what he needs. And you know, 425 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.599 David is an extraordinary communicator. He's very clear and concise, 426 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.200 and you know, his tremendous economy of language, so he 427 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:36.480 can say quite clearly clearly about what he what he 428 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:41.440 wants to accomplish. But he's also you know, he's he's 429 00:22:41.480 --> 00:22:47.000 been I think a bit mistreated because he is incredibly collaborative. 430 00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:49.960 At least that's been my experience with him. I heard 431 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:56.240 the very open to ideas and yeah and and and 432 00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.240 excited about ideas and wants people to bring ideas to 433 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.200 the table. He just wants them to He wants idea 434 00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.079 is to be presented in a reasonable way with enough 435 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:06.319 time to act. 436 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:10.359 On them, you know, and helicopter here. 437 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:15.359 No, yeah, exactly, yeah, uh, you know no, It's like 438 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.480 and I think that that's you know, that's really what 439 00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:21.599 you want directors. You want someone who has who has 440 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:23.359 a vision, who has a plan, who says, Okay, we're 441 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:24.599 going to do this and this and this and this, 442 00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:28.400 and if there's room for improvement or room for other ideas, 443 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.799 you can voice them when it's appropriate, and they could, 444 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:32.720 you know, it's it's it's up to the director about 445 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.400 whether or not they're going to take that idea or not. 446 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:37.480 You know, I don't think of my job as being 447 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:43.880 one necessarily that that requires me taking ownership of anything. 448 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.880 I mean, I think it's like, you know, I want 449 00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:50.799 a film I'm working on to be a dictatorship. I mean, 450 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:53.359 I think that that's where the best work gets done. Honestly, 451 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:55.960 it just should be a benevolent one, you know, it 452 00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:02.599 should be ideally, but uh, you know, it's it's I 453 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:05.200 I hope that I you know, I come and approach 454 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:09.039 something and I am a director I'm working with has 455 00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.440 brought me there because they like or are interested in 456 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.759 my point of view as well, you know, so so 457 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.799 I and I want to bring something to the party. 458 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:20.279 And and I think, you know, it's certainly in my 459 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:22.759 relationship with David has been that it's like we you know, 460 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:25.000 we we make a very good team in terms of 461 00:24:25.359 --> 00:24:28.880 evaluating what's going on on the set and and bifurcating 462 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:32.759 our collective responsibility. So even though and you're absolutely right, 463 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:38.079 David could for sure show up and talk directly to 464 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:39.640 the gaffer and say put that light there, put that 465 00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:43.519 light there to you know whatever, But he also knows 466 00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:47.079 that I have a skill and I have a communication 467 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:49.359 method with the geffer, and I have taste, and I 468 00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:52.279 have a point of view that that you know, for 469 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:56.480 whatever reason, he sometimes likes and is willing to let 470 00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:58.440 me run with. And then if he doesn't like something, 471 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:00.519 he points it out, and that's okay, you know, I mean, 472 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:02.400 that's I think that's part of the job, and it's 473 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:06.200 it's really a lot of it is is helping the director, 474 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.039 you know, pull the walls up of their sandbox so 475 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:11.640 that they can play, you know, and right. And that's 476 00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:13.279 the way I try to look at it, you know, 477 00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.200 as much as I can. I mean, it's ego always 478 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:17.680 gets in the way a little bit. You want to 479 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.680 you know, you really want to take Sometimes you feel 480 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:22.759 strongly about whatever it is you're going to do, and 481 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.039 you know, and you know, if you know, if it 482 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:29.039 seems appropriate, your debate and if it's you know, sometimes 483 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:30.759 you win, sometimes you lose, but you know you're not 484 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:32.000 the director. And that's how it is. 485 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.119 And I think you're right. I think you said that 486 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.039 David kind of gets a bad rap sometimes. I think 487 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.519 it's because of the legendary number of takes he takes. 488 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.039 And I think that kind of has been like the 489 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:45.799 the mythology of the myth of working with David, Like 490 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:47.960 you're going to do it's like Kubrick again, We'll go 491 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:50.640 back to Kubrick. You're going to do seventy. You're going 492 00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:53.559 to do seventy takes and he might take take three, 493 00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:55.720 but he's going to push you to seventy because that's 494 00:25:55.799 --> 00:26:00.799 just the way his process is. And from someone who's 495 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:04.400 worked with him, is that true. He does do sixty 496 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:06.640 takes and stuff that not every take of everything. 497 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.759 I mean, will I mean David, you know, David wants 498 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.119 to do it until it's right. And I think he should, 499 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.839 you know, I think absolutely should. I mean, and and 500 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:20.279 you know, it's like, look, I've been in a d 501 00:26:20.359 --> 00:26:23.119 I suite where we haven't done it right and it's painful. 502 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:30.519 You know, yeah, yeah, you know, and and uh, you know, 503 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.640 no nobody walks out of the movie theater and says, 504 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:33.799 at least they made their day. 505 00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:39.920 That's so great. You should actually get t shirts made 506 00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:43.039 and give it to give it to the department. And 507 00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:45.079 just like no one walks out of the theater and say, oh, 508 00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.480 at least they made their day. You're absolutely right. 509 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:49.799 But that's that's why. 510 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:52.960 But that's why, it's that's why his movies look the 511 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.720 way they look, and that's why they are the way 512 00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:58.880 they are. It's I mean, there's something really magical about 513 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.720 a Fincher film, all the back to you know, from seven, 514 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.759 even Alien three with all the problems he had with that, 515 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.400 but Seven and Fight Club and The Game and all 516 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:13.720 of those films, they're so specific. Almost when I look 517 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:16.920 at him, because I'm a huge David Fincher fan, He's 518 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:22.440 almost surgical with how he approaches telling the story. It's 519 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:27.279 almost like a surgical scalpel almost, like it's so clean 520 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:30.480 and every edge is almost done right. And I think 521 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:34.240 that just comes from ten thousand commercials and music videos 522 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.039 he's shot before he ever got onto a film set. 523 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:41.200 For Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know. Look, it's like, 524 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.519 I think what is important to appreciate about David, and 525 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:51.759 I think any filmmaker is that the you know, David 526 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.160 in particular though, is very aware of film technique and 527 00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:58.759 film grammar and the kind of you know, the the 528 00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:04.079 He's incredibly cinema literate. So if you said to David, hey, 529 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:08.319 I need you to go out and let's let's take this. 530 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:10.240 You're gonna take this commercial, but I need it done 531 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:15.480 in the style of Jean Lucagar, you'd absolutely do it. 532 00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:21.200 You know. It's like David's David's choice of technique is 533 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:27.160 is is his, arn't you know I think and you know, 534 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.400 I think I think people discount and it's and I 535 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.039 wish it was top more in cinema is the idea 536 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:38.039 of this kind of balance between between intent and working practice, 537 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:42.240 you know, the idea that you have, you have, you know, 538 00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:45.640 the Kubrick methodology of like, this is the shot I'm 539 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:47.440 gonna shoot, and it's going to be this shot is 540 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:50.160 gonna be on a twenty seven milimeter lens and the 541 00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.720 focus is going to be here, and I'm going to 542 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:53.960 get it until it's perfect right, and it might take 543 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.960 all day, but I don't care because I need this shot. 544 00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.559 And then on the other you have the kind of 545 00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:03.759 French New Wave or Cassavetties or whatever you want to 546 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:05.599 call it, of this kind of veryite idea of like, well, 547 00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:08.640 let's just go out and shoot, you know, Lars von 548 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:10.359 Trier kind of thing, like let's just go out and 549 00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:12.680 shoot and be spontaneous and exciting and fun, and we're 550 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:14.039 going to get some stuff and then we'll figure out 551 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:15.960 in the editing room. And there's some intent there, but 552 00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:20.279 you know, they're both completely valid ways to make a movie, 553 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:23.319 but both of them have a tremendous effect esthetically on 554 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:28.759 the movie, you know. And and so it's so your 555 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.519 point is quite right, Like you don't get the David 556 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:34.440 Fincher look once you do it until it's perfect. 557 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:38.000 Can you imagine that John Cassavetti style David Fincher film. 558 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:40.839 Can you imagine that would be. 559 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:41.480 Like just. 560 00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:49.599 Like we'll be right back after a word from our 561 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:55.000 sponsor and now back to the show. 562 00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:57.720 But you know, the other the. 563 00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:00.519 Other side is true too, you know if you so, 564 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:02.799 it's I think that you know, you have to kind 565 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:08.079 of there isn't enough attention made towards the environment of 566 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:10.119 the set and the methodology through which you make the 567 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.960 set has a huge bearing on how the movie feels emotionally, 568 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:17.319 you know. I mean we love to talk about shots, 569 00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:19.039 and in film school they like, Okay, let's do this 570 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:22.200 handheld and it'll be exciting. What's way more nuanced than that, 571 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:25.160 you know, because you could do you know, I mean 572 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.519 there's handheld shots and and uh you know the great example, 573 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:30.559 well it's not handheld actually, but it's on the dolly, 574 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:33.200 but you know the shot and clute Jane Fawn is 575 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:36.480 walking through the through the through the club and she's 576 00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:39.480 she's eyeing or a shier and it looks spontaneous. You know, 577 00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:43.920 that shot looks like it's just a walk through the club, Jane, 578 00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:45.599 And we're gonna follow you, We're gonna pull back on 579 00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:47.279 the dolly and it's like, no, it's been If you 580 00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:49.240 watch it a couple of times, you realize so incredibly 581 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:54.799 rehearsed it, you know. And and and that's you know, 582 00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:57.519 I think that's the great example of like the perfect 583 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:01.720 card trick of cinema. It's like making someone believe they've 584 00:31:01.720 --> 00:31:05.000 seen something spontaneous when in fact it's incredibly rehearsed, you know. 585 00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:08.480 And David is is you know better than anyone I 586 00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:11.559 know at exactly that now? 587 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.440 Is there is there any story that you can share publicly, 588 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.519 uh with of you and David working on set, something fun, 589 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:24.240 something like I learned something that day by seeing him work, 590 00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:27.400 something that you can share publicly. We could talk after 591 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:29.519 our after we hit the record button off, we could 592 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:30.559 talk about the other ones. 593 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:41.799 I you know, I think about that a little bit. Yeah, probably. 594 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:44.400 I mean there's every day, you know, we're sort of 595 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.960 confronted with with stuff. I mean it's like, you know, 596 00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:49.480 I mean. 597 00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.000 Well, let me let me ask you this, you know, well, 598 00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:55.519 let me let me ask you this. What was the 599 00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:58.799 what was the worst day for you as a cinematographer 600 00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:01.640 on on working David that you felt like the entire 601 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:03.960 world was going to come crashing down around you, which 602 00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:06.880 we all have those days on set, and how did 603 00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:09.960 you how did you overcome those days? And it could 604 00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:11.960 have been anything from a camera fell in the lake 605 00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:14.200 to the actor didn't come out of the thing, or 606 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:16.039 the sun's going down, We're losing the light? What is 607 00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:17.240 what was that day for you? 608 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.319 And David Sure it was you know, the first day 609 00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:24.400 we the first day of shooting on Mank, we we 610 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:26.279 had we had had a plan. We were sort of 611 00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:32.920 like we had we had had a plan that that 612 00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.880 that MGM and Paramount would have two different looks. That 613 00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:40.000 Paramount would be this sort of soft lit, very like 614 00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:43.119 gray environment, and it was because it was sort of 615 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:44.920 the low rent at the time, and MGM would be 616 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.839 glamorous and hard lit and lots of contrasts, and and 617 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:49.079 that's how we would you know, And that was a 618 00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:51.279 conversation we had had a lot at the beginning of 619 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:52.839 the movie, you know, like in the prep we had 620 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:54.680 talked about it and talk and then we you know, 621 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.160 implemented a bunch of lighting plans as a result. And 622 00:32:57.480 --> 00:32:59.279 the first scene we shot in Mank is a scene 623 00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:03.000 where where Gary oldman is gambling with his buddies in 624 00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.119 the writer's room and they're spinning the they're spinning the 625 00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.519 coin and there's a whole there's a whole kind of 626 00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:11.559 bit with them. And they've got a they've got a 627 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:15.880 show girl who's who's who's uh they have they have 628 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:18.759 a secretary whos dressed. It's a show girl. And it's 629 00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.640 sort of like it's there's you know, levity in the 630 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.720 scene and it's sort of silly, you know. And we 631 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.160 were going to do it softly, and we were just 632 00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:28.720 going to tend the windows, blow them out, the soft sideline, 633 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.480 you know, And that's what we did. And we showed up. 634 00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:35.119 We rehearsed the scene the day before and it was 635 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:36.920 lit and you know, we looked at it and then 636 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:41.160 we started shooting and and at lunchtime David pulled me 637 00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:43.519 aside and says, it's not working, and this is working. 638 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:48.359 It's wrong. This is wrong. And you know, I'm quite 639 00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:52.680 a literal person generally, and immediately internalized it. 640 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:54.160 You know, it's me. 641 00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:59.160 Yeah, exactly, exactly, yeah, and you know, and really what 642 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.559 it was was it was the conversation of, like, hey, 643 00:34:01.759 --> 00:34:04.079 we made this decision to do it this way, and 644 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.680 we can't do it this way. We need to we 645 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:11.119 need to change the change the look. And you know, 646 00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:13.119 of course, yeah, I mean I started feeling like, oh 647 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:14.559 my god, what have I done it? But then it's 648 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:15.840 you know, it's just it was a it was a 649 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.599 decision that we had make that that that was wrong, 650 00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:23.840 and he was quite right, actually, you know, and so 651 00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:27.199 we we quickly moved over to the second scene we 652 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:29.840 shot is this they're playing cards and it's and it 653 00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:33.760 was intended to be this kind of very dramatic slashes 654 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.400 of light and there's patterns on everybody's face and it's 655 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.800 sort of classic noir kind of style lighting with a 656 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.920 lot of smoke, and and I was, okay, so we'll 657 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:45.000 go we'll we'll pitt, we'll go shoot this scene. The 658 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:46.920 next day. We're going to go back and shoot this differently. 659 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:48.760 And and he, you know, so we finished the first scene, 660 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.599 he was really happy with it, finished the second scene, 661 00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.599 was quite happy with it, and then we went back 662 00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:54.840 in we started talking about how we could do it differently, 663 00:34:54.920 --> 00:34:58.639 and and you know, we backed it all up and 664 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:01.079 we put hard light out through the through the windows instead, 665 00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:03.719 and talk you know, explained to him what I thought 666 00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:05.800 we could do differently, and then we shot the scene 667 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:07.280 and it worked great, you know, but it's sort of 668 00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:09.800 like it was that moment of failure, you know, it's 669 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:11.559 sort of like, oh my god, what have we done? 670 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:15.039 You know, But in actuality of the conversation was really 671 00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:17.599 it was just, you know, between two people trying to 672 00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.840 figure out what could be improved, you know, And that's 673 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:22.519 that's one of the great things about David is he's 674 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:24.599 very open like that when it's not working. 675 00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:27.880 And it's so funny because I'm sure there's other cinematographers 676 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:30.639 listening right now going If I would have shot a 677 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:32.960 scene with David Fincher and then went to lunch and 678 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.840 he came up to me at lunch like, hey man, yeah, 679 00:35:35.960 --> 00:35:38.559 first half day didn't work at all. I can only 680 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:43.960 imagine the internal oh my god, cause I mean I've 681 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.559 been around dps all my career. I know how they think. 682 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.760 They're like, holy crap, I've screwed this film up. And 683 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:53.000 that's at let's say, my level. Can you imagine if 684 00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.920 David Fincher walks up, or Michael Mann walks up, or 685 00:35:56.519 --> 00:35:59.400 or or Joseph works up somebody like some of these 686 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.159 big directors and say something like that. But it automatic 687 00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:05.480 isn't funny how you automatically thought just first it's me, 688 00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:08.599 but it was it was a it's not that you 689 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:12.719 like under expose something that's unusable. No, we exactly executed 690 00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.440 what we had planned to do, but it is not 691 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.679 working stylistically. It's not like there was a problem with 692 00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:22.239 your technique. What you went after you got but it's 693 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:25.039 not working that But you internalize the different things. 694 00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:29.800 Yeah, of course, I mean, because it's you know, it's 695 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:33.159 I think also when you're a cinematographer, you are I 696 00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:36.760 think to be to be a working cinematographer, you have 697 00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:39.639 to these days, you have to be practical, right, you 698 00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:41.960 have to be responsible and practical and thoughtful, and you 699 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.159 have to sort of you know, the costs of the 700 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:48.239 day on a major motion picture is expensive, you know, 701 00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:51.920 and it's you want to use your resources wisely and 702 00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:54.039 you want to make the right choice, you know. And 703 00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:59.400 you know the idea of reshooting something because because it 704 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.519 doesn't look the way the director wants it to look 705 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:06.760 is is you know, it immediately feels like failure. You know. 706 00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:10.800 I actually I quite think that's it's actually the opposite. 707 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:12.280 I mean, I think that sort of that is the 708 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.239 process of developing and creating something with someone who's is 709 00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:17.599 learning about what's working what's not. And in the end, 710 00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:20.760 because we sort of looked at it together and we 711 00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:23.760 thought it it, we thought about what could be improved. 712 00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:25.800 It opened up a lot of things for us on 713 00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:34.559 that film and and help and ultimately it you know, 714 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:37.480 it ultimately made us better collaborators and sort of and 715 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:41.079 it made the you know, improve the film enormously. And 716 00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:43.039 so it was like, I think it just you know, 717 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:45.360 it takes fortitude to make that decision in that moment, 718 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:47.840 and because there was technically nothing wrong with the scene, 719 00:37:48.039 --> 00:37:51.079 it just didn't look quite right, didn't. 720 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:52.079 You know. 721 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.280 All the camera direction we did is exactly the same. 722 00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:56.320 You know, the performances are quite similar too, you know. 723 00:37:56.360 --> 00:38:00.440 I mean it's like it's not like, like you say, 724 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:03.159 it's not like it was under mistaken, you know, seeingly 725 00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:04.719 under exposed three stops. 726 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:08.199 Or something exactly. Now, I gotta ask you, man, because 727 00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:11.760 you're working on some pretty big budgets right now. I 728 00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:16.000 mean the movie you're doing with David the Killer, I'm 729 00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.679 sure not an independent film, uh, And the one you're 730 00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:23.840 working with with Michael Mann Ferrari, which obviously I have 731 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:31.400 to go see. Uh it's my grandfather's company. But then 732 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:35.920 you know, you're talking about massive budgets. The pressure is 733 00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:40.440 heavy on a normal cinematographer on a basic budget. There's 734 00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:42.880 a lot of people asking you things. On a director 735 00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:46.559 as well, but you know, your your department, what's it 736 00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:50.599 like dealing with not just five people. I'm assuming your 737 00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:53.960 crew is fairly massive, and you've got a lot of 738 00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.800 things going on, and then you've got responsibilities here and there, 739 00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.280 and then like you were saying, costs and and make, 740 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:04.360 it almost seems like the pressure of all the crap 741 00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:09.079 that you have to deal with overpowers the creative pressure almost, 742 00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:10.960 so there's a balance that you have to to do. 743 00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:12.239 Can you talk a little bit about that? 744 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:18.679 Yeah, I mean, you know, you're right, it's it's I mean, 745 00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:21.400 I think that's really where the importance of prep comes in. 746 00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:26.360 And you know, it's I believe you make the movie 747 00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:29.199 and the prep and you know, if you're if you 748 00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:33.440 do it right, you're you know, you're you're coloring the 749 00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:36.639 lines when you're shooting. And it doesn't mean that there 750 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:39.400 isn't room to to go outside the lines occasionally and 751 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:42.159 make adjustments, but it's you know, it makes all that 752 00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:44.599 stuff easier if you know where you're going in the 753 00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:46.400 prep and you sort of have a you know, you 754 00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:48.159 have a visual plan, you have a you know, you 755 00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:50.519 have a logistical plan about how you're going to move 756 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:52.960 equipment and people, and you know what your locations are 757 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:54.639 going to be in with your schedule is. It's it 758 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:56.679 makes all that stuff substantially easier. 759 00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:00.199 You know, we'll be right back after a wh heard 760 00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:05.880 from our sponsor and now back to the show. 761 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:11.400 It's it's complicated if you if you haven't done that obviously, 762 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:14.039 and then you sort of are are are You're making 763 00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:17.400 the you're making the creative decisions and the aesthetics sort 764 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:22.719 of you know, overarching artistic stuff at the same time 765 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:24.880 you're trying to solve logistical problems into meet you know, 766 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:28.400 that's a real recipe for disaster. So you know, if 767 00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:30.880 you can, if you can prep the movie in advance 768 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:34.079 with enough kind of understanding of what's going to happen 769 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:37.079 and you know, with a little bit of contingency for 770 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:40.360 whether or whatever, then it alleviates a lot of that stress. 771 00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:44.000 But you're right, I mean, you know, a lot of 772 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.559 the job on a bigger movie like that is just 773 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:50.960 personality management and people management, and you know, you're sort 774 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.880 of you're trying to get people pointed in the right direction, 775 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:56.440 you know. I mean, on a on the movie I 776 00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:59.000 Do with Michael, you know, we had really big camera department. 777 00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:00.840 We're usually you know, shooting three or four cameras at 778 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:04.800 any given time, and so you know, it's it's you're 779 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:07.639 not in a position necessarily where you can control every frame, 780 00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:08.960 you know what I mean. With David and I it's 781 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:11.039 like we kind of set every shot together and we're like, Okay, 782 00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:12.519 we're gona do this, and we're gonna do this, We're 783 00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:15.199 going to you know, we're picking each lens together and 784 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.920 going through, Okay, this is the camera and this is 785 00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:21.559 the camera. And then you know, uh, not every movie 786 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:25.599 is like that, you know, and and sometimes I wish 787 00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:28.199 they were, you know, I mean, sometimes it can spiral 788 00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:29.800 out of your grasp a little bit. You have to 789 00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:33.400 you have to clot back, but but you know, there's 790 00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:37.199 there's a bit of kind of allowing things to happen. 791 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.119 You pay out lead and then you kind of pull 792 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:41.039 it back when you can. You sort of try and 793 00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:43.840 figure out who's who's right which shots, and you know, 794 00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.519 it's there's a it's a process like anything, you know, 795 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:49.280 any kind of massive creative endeavor like that. 796 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.159 Now I do have to ask, man, is it a 797 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:55.119 was it a dream? Shooting bank in black and white? 798 00:41:55.239 --> 00:41:59.800 Like how you just don't get that opportunity in cinema today, 799 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.559 Like I'm sure you got called by tons of your 800 00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:07.320 cinematographer friends at the AC going. So what was it like? 801 00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:11.920 It's like shooting shooting black and white at that level? 802 00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.360 Just I mean, unless you're the Coen Brothers that does 803 00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:17.199 it once in a blue moon, but the generally studios 804 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:20.599 just won't allow it. So this was not only black 805 00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:24.360 and white. It was black and white in the style 806 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:28.159 of the Golden Age of Hollywood. So what was it 807 00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:32.119 like as creatively just living in that, in that world 808 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:34.920 of blacks and grays and whites and all that. 809 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.000 Well, well, I you know, I mean, honestly, I was 810 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:43.320 really intimidated. I I can imagine, you know, I wanted 811 00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:45.119 to make the right choices, you know, I mean, it's 812 00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:49.480 it's hard, It's like you know, I I was at 813 00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:52.199 the time, I was particularly conscious of the fact that 814 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:57.519 that black and white could easily become cliche, you know, 815 00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.960 and and derivative of something. You know. It's just I 816 00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:02.920 didn't want it to be like, oh, they're doing the 817 00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:09.719 Venetian blind thing, you know, painting the shats on the wall. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 818 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:15.159 You know. So it's like I think, you know, I 819 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:18.480 I was sort of you have the idea about what 820 00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:20.039 you're going to go out and make, and then you're 821 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:25.519 confronted with the you know, the realities of the of 822 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.679 the limitations the locations present to you or the stage 823 00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:31.000 sets present to you, and you sort of, you know, 824 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:33.559 it's like filmmaking is compromise, you know, so you're always, 825 00:43:33.880 --> 00:43:36.679 you know, you're always sort of coming to it, coming 826 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.039 to an intersection, figuring out, okay, A or B, I'll 827 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:40.760 do this or I'll do this, and you sort of 828 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.280 hope that the decisions that you make in the broad 829 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:48.800 sense congeal enough to make something that's consistent. You know. 830 00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:50.880 It's because it's really hard to see the movie, you know, 831 00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:56.760 in day six and uh, you know, I I think, 832 00:43:57.079 --> 00:43:58.519 you know, if I've learned anything in them day but 833 00:43:58.639 --> 00:44:02.280 it's like and Michael actually and a lot of the 834 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:04.320 great directors I've worked from. It's like you have an 835 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:08.119 idea and stick with it, you know, don't get cold feet, 836 00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:09.960 don't get you know, and I did. You know, there 837 00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:12.400 were moments on Bank where I was worried and I said, man, 838 00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:14.000 I don't know if are we being bold enough? We've 839 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.639 being you know, And I went out and had a 840 00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:18.679 beer with David one night and I said, I don't know, Man, 841 00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:21.159 I'm worried we're not being bold enough. I worried people 842 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:22.960 are going to be critical of it. And he was like, 843 00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:25.239 fuck them, No, You're doing exactly what you should do. 844 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:28.800 Just keep this whole, you know, hold the course. And 845 00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:32.039 it was you know, at the time, it was exactly 846 00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:34.079 what I needed to hear it because I was getting 847 00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:37.519 insecure about what we were doing and I was exactly 848 00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:41.239 if it was right. But yeah, I mean, I mean 849 00:44:41.239 --> 00:44:44.039 in terms of black and white, it was. And got 850 00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:46.920 what incredible opportunity, you know, to do something that very 851 00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:49.280 few people get to do, and something I really was 852 00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:52.239 excited to do and something I quite honestly was not 853 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.920 comfortable doing when we you know, when we started that film, 854 00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:57.519 I mean I got more comfortable with it, and I 855 00:44:57.719 --> 00:44:59.280 you know, did a ton of research, and I looked 856 00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:01.039 at a lot of images, lots of tests and sort 857 00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:03.079 of figured out what it was we wanted to do. 858 00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:04.920 But we also, you know, we wanted to make our 859 00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:09.280 own look too, sort of our own style, and that 860 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:13.320 was scary, you know. Yeah, it was especially considered in 861 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:15.800 the subject matter. You know. It's like I, you know, 862 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:18.320 I just felt I felt the weight of honoring Greg 863 00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:21.800 Tolan and Orson Wells in the film and the film 864 00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:23.400 community as a whole. You know, when we were making 865 00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:25.400 a movie, I really you know, I wanted to I 866 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.559 wanted to be respectful to what, you know, kind of 867 00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:29.519 the importance of that movie as well, you know. 868 00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:32.119 I mean, Eric, I'm stressed out as you're talking about it, 869 00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:36.039 and I didn't shoot the damn thing. I mean, as 870 00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:39.840 you're talking, I'm like, oh my god, to area find 871 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:43.440 Orson Wells and it's Citizen Kane, and and every filmmaker 872 00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:45.199 in the world is going to see this because everyone 873 00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:48.239 seeing Citizen Kane. And I could imagine you could just 874 00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:52.159 drive yourself mad thinking about this stuff. 875 00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:55.639 Yeah, easily, Yeah, for sure. You know, you can just 876 00:45:55.639 --> 00:45:57.559 go to work and have a good time, and you. 877 00:45:57.480 --> 00:45:59.559 Know, and it's another movie and you have to. You 878 00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:01.400 have to look at it like it's another movie. If not, 879 00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:05.000 you'll you'll psych yourself out without question. Now, I do 880 00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.760 you know you are working with Michael Mann? Or I 881 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:08.920 don't know sure? If you're I think you're in post 882 00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:11.320 production at this point on that film. If I'm not mistaken, 883 00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:15.440 we can just finish, just finished. So what I mean? 884 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.280 Michael Mann, He's a legend man, He's a legend in 885 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:23.159 our in the in our business. And you know as well, 886 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:27.079 legendary stories. You know, I was in Miami when Miami 887 00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:30.000 Vice was going on, so and I came up in Miami. 888 00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:32.320 So all I hear is about Michael Man Miami Vice. 889 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:34.360 Stories from all the old crew guys that I used 890 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.360 to work with on the commercials. We say, yeah, I 891 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:39.199 was on there when Michael and Adie almost came on, 892 00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:42.480 and like you hear these stories about what happened back then. 893 00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:46.599 So what's it like collaborating with someone like Michael because 894 00:46:46.599 --> 00:46:49.239 this is your first collaboration with him? Correct? 895 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:53.119 Yeah it was. I mean, you know, I don't really 896 00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:54.800 want to talk a lot about the movie because we 897 00:46:55.159 --> 00:46:57.840 finished it, and fair enough, we just we just made 898 00:46:57.880 --> 00:46:59.599 the sausage and now we're going to age it a 899 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:02.079 little bit. In a little while, someone's gonna cook it up, 900 00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:03.519 and then you guys are gonna taste it, and you 901 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:05.000 have to let us know if we did any good, 902 00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:12.280 you know. But I you know, look, it's like the 903 00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.800 great thing about this job is coming in and watching 904 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:19.559 other people, you know, learning how other people make their movies. 905 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.280 And you know, as a cinematographer, I think it's your 906 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:25.960 you know, it's your job to come in and and uh, 907 00:47:26.239 --> 00:47:28.639 you know, kind of like I said earlier, figure out 908 00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:30.639 how it is you can help, you know, what is 909 00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:31.840 it this person needs for me? 910 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:32.840 Mhm? 911 00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:37.559 And it's often very different, you know, it's it's it's 912 00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:44.400 often you know, doesn't and so there's you know, there's 913 00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:46.960 a process of discovery I think creatively with people and 914 00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:52.840 also just just straight up logistically about where where where 915 00:47:52.840 --> 00:47:57.400 does my cob fit within this machine? You know. And 916 00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:01.000 and the thing about Michael is that he is probably 917 00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:04.760 the most tenacious person I know. I mean, he will 918 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.960 fight forever for his film, and he will fight for 919 00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:11.000 his actors, and he will fight for the but but 920 00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.320 you know, but most importantly, he fights for the story, 921 00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:16.679 and he fights for what he thinks is important for 922 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:20.360 the scene and nothing else matters. And I really admire 923 00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:23.000 that about him, you know, I mean he uh, he 924 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:27.719 is not distracted by the kind of incidental stuff that 925 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:31.400 that you know, me and my fellow cinematographers would go 926 00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:34.559 crazy about if it if it detracts from something that 927 00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:37.440 is dramatically important to him. And and I think by 928 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.239 the way that he's he's absolutely right about that. And 929 00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:44.199 it's something I really learned from him. Is you know, 930 00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.039 you protect the film and the story first, and and 931 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:52.239 and all the other things are our secondary. So you know, 932 00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:56.039 it's it's uh, it's it's it's a it's an interesting 933 00:48:56.119 --> 00:48:59.320 environment to participate in. And and you know, the kind 934 00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:03.559 of energy that that feeds is is exciting and sometimes 935 00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:12.559 complex and and uh and and uh uh frenetic. But 936 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:16.599 but you know, but Michael, you know, he's he's a 937 00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:20.400 force and uh and and he's he's incredible, you know, 938 00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:24.079 and it's and the thing is, you know, I I 939 00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:27.280 have been fortunate to work with a few directors of 940 00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:33.440 his vintage and and you know, they they there's there's 941 00:49:33.480 --> 00:49:36.039 something really special about working with people that have been 942 00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:39.280 through you know, we're not talking ten thousand hours we're 943 00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:42.639 talking one hundred thousand hours, you know of you know, 944 00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.800 understanding cinema language, understanding blocking and thinking about the same 945 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.880 thing about and then doing it their way, you know, 946 00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:51.960 and they're not distracted about like, well this is how 947 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.000 you you know, you need an over the shoulder and 948 00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:55.800 then you need a two shot and you should get 949 00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:56.559 the POV and you. 950 00:49:56.519 --> 00:50:00.440 Know we'll be right back after a wh from our 951 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:05.800 sponsor and now back to the show. 952 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:10.760 Michael doesn't work that way. It's not you know, he's 953 00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:18.639 he's he's working in in his language exclusively and and 954 00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:22.719 that's that's really cool, you know, because a lot of filmmakers, 955 00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:25.760 especially younger ones, will turn to you and say, well, 956 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:27.480 what do I need now? You know, how many shots 957 00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:29.000 to tell this scene or whatever? And you can have 958 00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:33.760 your opinion, but uh, but you know, I think, uh, 959 00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:39.159 it's you know, as cinematographers, we're we're there to provide 960 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:45.639 guidance and assistance and and and and interpret things visually contribute. 961 00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:51.360 But but you know, I think of all the directors 962 00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:55.480 that I admire, the ones who speak through the frame 963 00:50:55.760 --> 00:50:59.039 are are are my favorites? You know? The directors that 964 00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:03.800 really kind of are are you know, appreciate, you know, 965 00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:07.039 approach it holistically. Are the ones that I respond to 966 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.000 the best. And so so I'm I'm really cautious when 967 00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:13.360 I when I inject too much of my personal opinion, 968 00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:18.440 uh into a director's workflow if they haven't asked for it, 969 00:51:18.519 --> 00:51:18.800 you know. 970 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:23.599 If I may piggyback on your sausage analogy. Uh, the 971 00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:27.039 it's kind of like a great chef who has made 972 00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:31.239 the sausage a thousand times the way that it's in 973 00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:34.719 the textbook, and now they're just they're just kind of riffing. 974 00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:37.400 It's kind of like kind of jazz in a sense, 975 00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:39.199 and like, well, well, you really need to put the 976 00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:41.480 meat in the casing first. It's like, no, I'm going 977 00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:43.199 to put the casing in the middle. I'm going to 978 00:51:43.239 --> 00:51:45.360 wrap the sausage or the meat around it, and then 979 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:46.920 I'm going to bred it, and then I'm going to 980 00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:49.360 defron and then there's others. You're just approaching it in 981 00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:52.119 different ways, and everyone's like, oh wow. But he understands 982 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:55.800 the basics of how to make or how to shoot 983 00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:59.760 a scene exactly how it's textbook supposed to be done. 984 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:03.199 But because he has so much understanding of the medium 985 00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:07.199 of the language. Just like David. They could just riff 986 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:09.639 and do whatever they're You don't need a two shot, 987 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:11.320 you don't need a once. You can cut the whole 988 00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:14.360 damn thing on a long shot on one hundred mil 989 00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:18.599 through a tree and it works. You know, you're like, oh, oh, 990 00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:22.159 but the in the textbooks, any film school teacher would go, 991 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:26.280 don't do that. But they just understand that language. It's 992 00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:29.960 like a tarantino, Like they understand the film language so 993 00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:33.280 well that they just they riff. It's jazz. It's like 994 00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:36.599 watching the jazz play and you are one of the 995 00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:42.119 collaborators in the band working with a master jazz player. 996 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:44.159 It's kind of like, you know, if I may use 997 00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:47.639 jazz as analogy, you're there and you're just like watching, 998 00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.079 just going. I handed him the trumpet, but holy cow, 999 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:52.840 I didn't know he was gonna do that with it. 1000 00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:56.440 Right right right right right, yeah, you know, I mean 1001 00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:59.079 it's like, yeah, you know, I mean, if you're gonna 1002 00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:01.400 run with you, allow me to run with that analogy 1003 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.320 a little bit. It's like, if you know, if we're 1004 00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:08.079 playing jazz, then then then in that you know, in 1005 00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:10.480 those situations, I'm really just trying to make sure everybody's 1006 00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:11.039 in tune. 1007 00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:14.559 Oh great, and yeah, we just want to make. 1008 00:53:14.440 --> 00:53:16.760 Sure that where it's just trying to like, you know, 1009 00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:19.079 it's like, okay, I get it now, we're going to go, 1010 00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:21.000 oh we're going to D all right, cool, let's play 1011 00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:22.880 D artist. Well you're a little sharp, you know, like, 1012 00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:26.119 let's just like just sort of attenuated a little bit enough, 1013 00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:31.280 you know, I And you know, it's that's that's a 1014 00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:35.800 wonderful thing about this job is watching how people make 1015 00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:38.119 movies and learning how there are different types of movies, 1016 00:53:38.199 --> 00:53:41.400 you know, different ways to maze movies, you know, and 1017 00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:43.960 also learning about the kinds of movies that you want 1018 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:46.239 to make, you know. I mean it's like every time 1019 00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:51.960 I finish a film, I I think about the types 1020 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.159 of collaboratives I'm going to seek out too, you know, 1021 00:53:54.199 --> 00:53:56.199 and the types of work I'm interested in doing the 1022 00:53:56.239 --> 00:53:59.119 things I'm less interested in doing. And you know, I 1023 00:53:59.159 --> 00:54:05.280 am definitely on one, you know. I I quite like 1024 00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:09.559 the kind of surgical type of filmmaking. I like puzzle 1025 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:12.199 pieces of figuring out how to you know, you know, 1026 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:17.960 like I you know, Hitchcock is like my filmmaker. You know, 1027 00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:22.000 there's sort of like the puzzle of you know, show 1028 00:54:22.079 --> 00:54:24.559 the person seeing something, that show the audience what they see. 1029 00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:27.199 You know, even that you know it's a vast simplification 1030 00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:31.079 of it, but you know, thinking about how to break 1031 00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:33.800 a scene down into a spare bones and and tell 1032 00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:37.880 the story that ways is is the type of filmmaking 1033 00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:41.519 at the moment anyway that I'm interested in. But you know, 1034 00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:45.320 it's like. 1035 00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:45.519 You got some good collaborators to do that kind of 1036 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:47.639 I mean David, for I mean, as you talk about 1037 00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:51.719 puzzle piece directors, he is, He's definitely that guy, and 1038 00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:55.559 Michael exactly the same. I mean, but David specifically, like 1039 00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:59.360 he is. Look, I mean not to blow smoke up 1040 00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:04.440 David's ask, but he is our Hitchcock. He is our Kubrick. 1041 00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.000 There will never be anyone like Kubrick or Hitchcock. But 1042 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:10.119 in our generation there's very few filmmakers who are as 1043 00:55:10.119 --> 00:55:13.880 surgical as him. And then Michael has his. There's never 1044 00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.280 gonna be another Michael Man, and people will be studying 1045 00:55:16.280 --> 00:55:20.320 Michael Mann movies in film schools one hundred years from now. 1046 00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:22.920 And same thing with David, you know, and and same 1047 00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:25.400 thing with Tarantino and Nolan and some of these other 1048 00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:31.280 greats there, there's a handful that are our generations Hitchcock's 1049 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:35.039 and our generations Kubricks that you just you sit back 1050 00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:36.639 and you get you're lucky enough to get to work 1051 00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:39.480 with some of these guys. Man, I mean, you must 1052 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.639 smile every day going to work. I'd imagine most days. 1053 00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:48.039 Most mostly I'm worried about whether or not that conor 1054 00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:49.360 got parked in the right place. 1055 00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:53.440 Is the techno creme here? Why is it the technology? Exactly? 1056 00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:59.079 Yeah, you know so, I mean you know it's like, 1057 00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:02.079 go ahead. 1058 00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:03.960 No, no, if there's look, if you had a chance 1059 00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:08.199 to go back and tell your younger self, who's just 1060 00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:10.840 starting off in the business, one thing, what would that 1061 00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:11.320 thing be? 1062 00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:20.320 It has nothing to do with the equipment. Oh great, 1063 00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:22.039 thank you, I'm worrying about it. 1064 00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:24.719 Thank you. You mean to tell me I don't need 1065 00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:26.519 the latest, I don't need to shoot twenty four K 1066 00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:28.079 or forty eight K. 1067 00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:33.800 No. No, by And you're coming from and no. 1068 00:56:33.880 --> 00:56:36.639 But the thing is that you're coming from the perspective 1069 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:39.280 of one of the most technical directors and working with 1070 00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:43.199 David who is he's always on the cutting edge with 1071 00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.320 reds and and what you guys did with MANK and 1072 00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:49.760 and even then you're saying, it's it's not always about 1073 00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:53.920 the latest camera, the latest lens, or the latest lights. 1074 00:56:54.519 --> 00:56:57.000 No, I mean some some of the best thoughts we 1075 00:56:57.039 --> 00:56:59.000 did in mank with it with a sixty wild light bulb, 1076 00:56:59.079 --> 00:57:03.000 you know, I mean it's it's I mean, you know, 1077 00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:08.039 it's sure. I mean technology helps you, you know, technology 1078 00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:12.280 makes things easier, but it doesn't give you better taste. 1079 00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:16.639 And it doesn't it doesn't give you better ideas, you know. 1080 00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:22.119 And and when I was younger, if I had spent 1081 00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:24.639 more time thinking about the ideas and less time thinking 1082 00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:27.840 about the equipment, I would have had better ideas, you know. 1083 00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:33.000 And you know I got, you know, because you get 1084 00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:35.920 seduced you know, you get seduced in films by you know, 1085 00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:38.639 you read Americans for magazine, and I see your magazine 1086 00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:40.559 and there are all the advertisements, and everyone's trying to 1087 00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:44.719 sell you this and that, and and you start to think, oh, man, 1088 00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:46.639 if I shoot three five milimeters on my film, my 1089 00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:49.440 film will be better. You know, If I get an 1090 00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:51.800 eighteen K then I'll be able, you know. And it's 1091 00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:55.480 you know, it's funny. It's like the longer I spend 1092 00:57:55.519 --> 00:57:57.440 this business, you know, and the more I have to 1093 00:57:57.519 --> 00:58:03.320 kind of repent for the the the requests I make 1094 00:58:03.400 --> 00:58:08.199 to producers, the more I remind them that that the 1095 00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:10.960 things I need are generally scheduled driven. They're not aesthetic, 1096 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:15.679 you know. You know, for example, if if if I 1097 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:17.800 you know, if I can shoot the establishing shot at 1098 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:21.800 at nine am, when it's backlit and it's beautiful and 1099 00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:24.079 there's you know, missed in the air and stuff, I 1100 00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:26.480 don't need anything. I just need the camera. But if 1101 00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:29.280 the actor is available till three p m, then I 1102 00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:36.079 need all this stuff, you know, And and that's that's 1103 00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:39.400 unfortunately the problem of the big movie. You know, the 1104 00:58:39.400 --> 00:58:42.079 small movie is nimble enough to make that choice. Yeah, great, 1105 00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:43.400 you need to shoot a nine am. Let's shoo at 1106 00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:48.679 nine am. You know, let's figure that out, you know, 1107 00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:52.440 on on a on a big Marvel production or or 1108 00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:57.199 or you know, a big war movie like Devotion. You 1109 00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:00.440 know where you're sort of your balance saying, you know, 1110 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:03.280 you're balancing aircraft and you know when when when the 1111 00:59:03.639 --> 00:59:06.000 when the ceiling is lifted so the planes can take 1112 00:59:06.039 --> 00:59:08.360 on off. Can't necessarily shoot it at six am when 1113 00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:10.360 the light is perfect, you have to shoot at eleven 1114 00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:12.199 or whatever you know, so you have to figure out 1115 00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.280 how what you know, and the compromise has become about 1116 00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:20.599 seeing that they picture and not being myopic around what 1117 00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:23.480 is what is immediately important to the image versus what's 1118 00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:26.239 important to the movie, you know, And and that's kind 1119 00:59:26.239 --> 00:59:29.599 of I think ultimately the biggest lesson for me has 1120 00:59:29.639 --> 00:59:36.000 been like learning to recognize how my needs impact the 1121 00:59:36.039 --> 00:59:38.360 rest of the film and how to best navigate it 1122 00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:40.639 and sort of advocate for what I think is important 1123 00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:43.440 without detracting from what's important for the film as a whole, 1124 00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:46.360 you know. And I think a lot of youngertin photographers 1125 00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:48.239 fall in this trap of like, no, no, no, it 1126 00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:50.159 has I have to shoot anamorphic and it has to 1127 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:53.280 you know, and then you know, they spend four thousand 1128 00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:55.199 dollars a week on lenses and then there's no money 1129 00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:55.760 for costume. 1130 00:59:57.400 --> 00:59:59.880 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor 1131 01:00:03.519 --> 01:00:06.679 and now back to the show, you. 1132 01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.800 Know what I mean. And it's like, so it's it's 1133 01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:15.239 you know, it's it's important to be thoughtful. I think 1134 01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:18.920 about how how you how you absorbed the resources of 1135 01:00:18.960 --> 01:00:21.679 the movie as a cinematographer, and how you how you 1136 01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:23.159 advocate for the things you need. 1137 01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:27.000 Now, you brought up Devotion, which is your new movie, 1138 01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:30.800 which another small independent film you've been doing. Can you 1139 01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:33.280 can you tell everybody a little bit about the movie. 1140 01:00:33.320 --> 01:00:35.480 And I mean it looks gorgeous, man, I saw the 1141 01:00:35.480 --> 01:00:39.159 trailer for it. It absolutely looks stunning. Again, you get into 1142 01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:43.360 play with some beautiful toys and a vintage piece. I mean, 1143 01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:45.400 you can really get to have some fun. Man, You're 1144 01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:47.920 having some fun with some nice toys. And I know you, 1145 01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:50.199 I know you had to suffer in Italy with Michael 1146 01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:51.480 mann On on the latest film. 1147 01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:52.320 I'm sure. 1148 01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:55.039 I'm sure the food was horrible, the weather was bad. 1149 01:00:55.119 --> 01:00:57.719 I mean, you're you're you're living a tough life, sir. 1150 01:00:58.039 --> 01:01:01.639 But uh, but Devotion, tell me about devotion. 1151 01:01:03.559 --> 01:01:07.039 Devotion? You know, I got I got a phone call 1152 01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:10.840 from a from a friend of mine, Bruce Franklin, who 1153 01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:13.119 had been a first d D that I had worked 1154 01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:16.440 with a lot with Joe Kazinski and and you know, 1155 01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:18.400 old friend of mine, and he called me up one day. 1156 01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:21.159 I was in Chicago doing the finale of Fargo, the 1157 01:01:21.159 --> 01:01:24.079 TV show Fargo, and my phone rang and he said, Hey, 1158 01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:27.599 I got this script you should read. I'm producing, and 1159 01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:30.199 I said, I didn't know that he had started producing. 1160 01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:32.119 And I said, okay, cool, Bruce, Yeah, I send it over. 1161 01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:34.079 And he sent me the script and I read it. 1162 01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:35.880 I was like, oh my god, this is so great. 1163 01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:38.320 You know, it was it was it's a war film, 1164 01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:44.320 but it was really a drama in the under under 1165 01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:50.679 the the guys of a war film and uh and 1166 01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:54.000 it was period. And he's he you know, he said, look, 1167 01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:56.719 I've got airplanes. We're going to shoot it for real. 1168 01:01:57.039 --> 01:01:58.679 We're not going to do a bunch of visual effects. 1169 01:01:58.760 --> 01:02:00.360 We're going to really have an area in it. They're 1170 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:01.440 going to go up and they're going to put these 1171 01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:03.400 planes in the air. We're going to choreograph this. And 1172 01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:05.119 I think you're the guy to do it. I want 1173 01:02:05.159 --> 01:02:08.039 you to get with the director. And I said, okay, cool, 1174 01:02:08.360 --> 01:02:10.400 Uh yeah, get me on the phone. So we met. 1175 01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:13.400 I met JD. Dillar the next day and we had 1176 01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:15.280 you don't know, two and a half hour meeting and 1177 01:02:15.280 --> 01:02:17.559 we just talked about everything. We talked about the movie, 1178 01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:20.440 we also talked about life, and we talked about cinema, 1179 01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:23.559 and we talked about history and race and politics and 1180 01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:26.360 you know, a lot of things that related to the movie, 1181 01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:28.000 and a lot of things that didn't just because we 1182 01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:32.199 became fast friends and and I, you know, I finished 1183 01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:35.559 the zoom call and my phone rang and it was 1184 01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:38.400 Bruce and he said, hey, do you want the job? Said, yeah, 1185 01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:40.880 of course I want the show. So we did it, 1186 01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:44.519 and it was great because I had, you know, they 1187 01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:48.440 had they knew that they had they had bitten off 1188 01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:51.880 a big chunk, and they wanted to do it right. 1189 01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:56.119 And the producers really, you know, wanted to support the film, 1190 01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:58.000 and they were prepared to sort of support the film. 1191 01:02:58.039 --> 01:02:59.320 So I had a lot of prep time, and I 1192 01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:01.719 sat with Jad and we you know, we we sat 1193 01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:06.400 in la and we storyboarded and you know, brainstormed ideas 1194 01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:08.599 about how we could approach and what worked and what didn't. 1195 01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:10.320 We talk to people, you know, the guys that had 1196 01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:14.679 done done Kirk and the guys that had done Midway, 1197 01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:16.079 and we you know, we sort of just did our 1198 01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:18.119 research and we looked at stuff we liked and stuff 1199 01:03:18.159 --> 01:03:22.400 we didn't like. And and then you know, when Thomas 1200 01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:24.239 production design that joined the movie, and then the three 1201 01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:26.079 of us would sit down and talk about different ways 1202 01:03:26.079 --> 01:03:28.440 to call you know, how much of the aircraft carrier 1203 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:30.719 to build and you know, how are we going to 1204 01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:32.639 shoot the buck stuff? And what can we do for real? 1205 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:36.440 And you know, then Kevin LaRosa and Mike fitz Maurice 1206 01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:39.719 joined the party and they were there are our aerial unit. 1207 01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:43.079 Mike fitz Maurice's Ariel DP and Kevin the aerial coordinator 1208 01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:49.519 kind of second unit director, aerial director anyway, got involved 1209 01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:51.599 and that was like a whole new world open up 1210 01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:53.159 to me. And I, you know, I hadn't I had 1211 01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:57.119 shots and aarials, but mostly like helicopter establishing shots, very 1212 01:03:57.159 --> 01:03:59.760 simple things, you know, And and they had a whole 1213 01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:02.159 differ a set of tools available to them that they 1214 01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:04.440 started to explain to us what they could do. And 1215 01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:06.519 we started to you know, hold little model planes up 1216 01:04:06.559 --> 01:04:09.280 in the air and storyboard and shoot you know, kind 1217 01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:13.000 of low fi previous videos and talk about how those 1218 01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:15.800 sequences were going to work together. And you know, it 1219 01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:18.760 was great. We had an incredible experience making that movie. 1220 01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:20.400 It was you know, it was a lot of people 1221 01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:23.760 that really really cared about it and wanted the support 1222 01:04:23.840 --> 01:04:26.840 JD and the project, and we're excited and we had 1223 01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:33.440 producers that were just incredibly supportive through the whole process 1224 01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:36.360 and really wanted us to succeed, and we're willing to 1225 01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:41.760 listen to an outlook that maybe otherwise would have been expensive. 1226 01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:44.719 You know, there was certainly plenty of visual effects of 1227 01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:46.920 the leaching store problems that that would have saved them 1228 01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:50.079 a lot of money, but I think would have would 1229 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:53.599 have been detrimental to the film. And and you know 1230 01:04:53.679 --> 01:04:56.840 that fortunately for us, they agreed and they were willing 1231 01:04:56.880 --> 01:04:58.880 to go down the road with us and try to 1232 01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:00.599 figure out ways to do a lot of it for real. 1233 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:03.719 On that you know that I think in the end 1234 01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.559 paid dividends. So you know, I'm really thankful to them 1235 01:05:06.599 --> 01:05:11.920 that they we're forward thinking in that way. You know, 1236 01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:13.719 I guess maybe it's backward thinking because that's how it 1237 01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:15.519 would have been done seventy five years ago. 1238 01:05:16.679 --> 01:05:19.360 So so they pulled like a top gun Maverick. They're like, no, no, 1239 01:05:19.360 --> 01:05:20.719 we're going to put the we're going to put the 1240 01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:21.639 planes in the air, and we're going. 1241 01:05:21.639 --> 01:05:22.079 To shoot this. 1242 01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:26.239 Do you see a movement because you're working in the 1243 01:05:26.239 --> 01:05:29.000 big in the studio projects like that, do you see 1244 01:05:29.000 --> 01:05:34.039 a movement or almost a slight backlash against so much 1245 01:05:34.119 --> 01:05:36.639 visual effects, so heavy visual effects and they're like, no, 1246 01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:39.159 let's get it for real, because I mean even Nolan 1247 01:05:39.239 --> 01:05:42.480 on on Dark Night when he flipped that eighteen wheeler, 1248 01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:45.159 he did it for real, you know, and you can 1249 01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:48.239 tell and you can sense it. There's something organic on 1250 01:05:48.920 --> 01:05:52.320 screen that when you're able to do things real you 1251 01:05:52.519 --> 01:05:54.440 I mean, I think that's one of the main reasons 1252 01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:59.079 Top Gun Maverick was such a massive hit, among other reasons, 1253 01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:02.320 but just something we just haven't seen before. You don't 1254 01:06:02.360 --> 01:06:05.400 see that in today's world. So I'm assuming that, yeah, 1255 01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:07.360 you know, what you're doing, what you guys did in 1256 01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:09.760 Devotion is going to be you know, similar in the 1257 01:06:09.800 --> 01:06:11.320 sense that you did it. But do you feel that 1258 01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:15.159 as a cinematographer that there that there's a movement towards like, 1259 01:06:15.400 --> 01:06:17.079 let's get to see if we could do this for real, 1260 01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:20.440 back back the way it was done even twenty years ago. 1261 01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:24.079 Yeah, yeah, I mean I think, you know, it's like, look, 1262 01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:26.000 Richard Donner did it, you know. I mean, I think 1263 01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:32.800 it's I I think, you know, I mean, I yeah, look, 1264 01:06:32.840 --> 01:06:35.239 the audience knows we can do anything, you know. I mean, 1265 01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.320 the audience seeing Guardians of the Galaxy, you know, no 1266 01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:40.760 disrespect the Guardians of the but they know that, you know, 1267 01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:42.960 they know we can take them base, they know we 1268 01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:45.079 can put you on an alien planet. We know we 1269 01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:46.840 can you know, fly to the center of the Earth. 1270 01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:52.880 So it's it's not you know that it's it. It 1271 01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:56.639 used to be the David Copperfield event magic show. You know, 1272 01:06:56.719 --> 01:06:59.199 that's what the audience would go to the theater for. Right, 1273 01:06:59.239 --> 01:07:02.360 they go for the spectacle, And now I think the 1274 01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:05.400 audience goes for the car, the slight of hand card trick. 1275 01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:09.320 You know, they want to they want to feel it. 1276 01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:13.480 They they would prefer to they would prefer to not 1277 01:07:13.599 --> 01:07:16.800 even notice that it's happening instead of seeing this kind 1278 01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:21.559 of all the razzle dazzle on screen. That's my opinion anyway. 1279 01:07:21.719 --> 01:07:25.440 But so I I think, I think when you can 1280 01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:27.039 do it for real, and you can do it for 1281 01:07:27.159 --> 01:07:31.719 real with with the assistance of visual effects, maybe you know, 1282 01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:34.079 you clean up the you clean up the stick that's 1283 01:07:34.119 --> 01:07:39.480 holding the camera on the plane, it's different than making 1284 01:07:39.519 --> 01:07:42.880 a plane, you know what I mean. And it looks 1285 01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:46.079 different and it and it feels it feels different. And 1286 01:07:46.079 --> 01:07:49.599 and I also think in some ways it forces filmmakers 1287 01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:52.679 that that mode of thinking and and and look there's 1288 01:07:53.039 --> 01:07:55.400 there's plenty of visual effects and devotion, but but we 1289 01:07:55.559 --> 01:07:57.519 set some rules for ourselves and say, okay, well we're 1290 01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:00.000 gonna put the camera. We're only we're only gonna put 1291 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:02.239 the camera in places where we could put a camera 1292 01:08:02.239 --> 01:08:05.119 on a real aircraft. So we're not going to you know, 1293 01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:06.760 we're not going to put the camera the plane in 1294 01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:09.639 front of a blue screen and fly around, fly the 1295 01:08:09.639 --> 01:08:12.239 camera around it on a techno crane and give you 1296 01:08:12.280 --> 01:08:14.599 all these crazy shops and go, you know, go through 1297 01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:16.720 the landing gear and up over the flaps, and you know, 1298 01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:19.800 we're not going to do that stuff. We're going to 1299 01:08:19.880 --> 01:08:24.159 do We're going to do things that you could really 1300 01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:30.000 do basically, that you know that apply to physics to 1301 01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:34.439 some degree. And and I think you're going to see 1302 01:08:34.439 --> 01:08:36.399 more more of that. And I think actually, you know, 1303 01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:39.680 Tom Cruise deserves a tremendous amount of credit for as 1304 01:08:40.119 --> 01:08:43.880 someone who is is promoting the idea and saying, hey, look, 1305 01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:46.520 you know, cinema is important and it's worth protecting, and 1306 01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:50.359 it's a national treasure and we have to and we 1307 01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:54.159 have to you know, the audience deserves something better than 1308 01:08:54.319 --> 01:09:00.479 than then, you know, pre visiting the virtual camera through 1309 01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:04.520 you know, through the wormhole or whatever. You know. I mean, 1310 01:09:04.560 --> 01:09:07.239 it's there's there's it has to be story forward and 1311 01:09:07.239 --> 01:09:10.720 thoughtful and considerate and respectful to the audience, you know. 1312 01:09:11.199 --> 01:09:13.800 And and again there is I mean, Pandora is not 1313 01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:17.199 going to be shot practically, you know, that's not a 1314 01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:19.960 practical You can't go to fly to Pandora and shoot 1315 01:09:20.000 --> 01:09:22.239 those things practically. So there is a place for that 1316 01:09:22.399 --> 01:09:24.439 kind of storytelling. You know, when you go into the 1317 01:09:24.520 --> 01:09:27.640 quantum Relemant man probably not going to build a set 1318 01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:31.479 or a miniature for that. It's gonna right, But if 1319 01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:34.520 it's something that can be ext it's something that can 1320 01:09:34.560 --> 01:09:36.319 be done, it should try to be done, especially at 1321 01:09:36.319 --> 01:09:37.000 that budget level. 1322 01:09:39.479 --> 01:09:41.840 Yeah, yeah, I think so. And you know I think also, 1323 01:09:43.000 --> 01:09:49.319 you know, with all due respect to to other filmmakers, 1324 01:09:49.359 --> 01:09:52.720 it's it when you do it. If you do it digitally, 1325 01:09:54.119 --> 01:09:56.960 you can make it up later. If you do it 1326 01:09:57.000 --> 01:09:59.479 for real, you have to decide in advance. 1327 01:10:01.479 --> 01:10:04.000 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor 1328 01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:08.880 and now back to the show. 1329 01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:15.239 And that's intimidating to some people. You know, you have 1330 01:10:15.359 --> 01:10:17.680 practical considerations you have to think about. You know, if 1331 01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:20.119 you're if you're Dick Donner and you're gonna you know, 1332 01:10:20.119 --> 01:10:23.640 you're going to drop the drop the gasoline truck, you know, 1333 01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:26.520 for real, with a real pyrotechnic explosion, you have to 1334 01:10:26.600 --> 01:10:28.760 be considered of how big the explosion is going to be, 1335 01:10:28.760 --> 01:10:30.399 and how far the camera is going to be, and 1336 01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:33.319 what the you know, what the location considerations are, and 1337 01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:34.640 you have to plan it and you have to go 1338 01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:36.359 text out and you have to say, Okay, we're gonna 1339 01:10:36.359 --> 01:10:37.760 put the camera here, and put the camera here, and 1340 01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:40.000 put the camera here, and that we're going to suspend 1341 01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:41.279 it from a truck or we're gonna drop them and 1342 01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:43.000 there's gonna explode them. There's going to be four days 1343 01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:44.560 of clean up, and we're going to pay off all 1344 01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:47.520 the local businesses. And it's you know, like that, it 1345 01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:52.279 requires advanced thought in the way that doing the gasoline truck. 1346 01:10:52.359 --> 01:10:56.880 You know, shooting a plate doesn't right, but there's obvious 1347 01:10:56.920 --> 01:10:59.680 significant advantages to doing it for real. It's just more 1348 01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:03.880 different and it requires, you know, sort of consider It 1349 01:11:04.159 --> 01:11:07.800 requires directing to some degree, you know, can I so, 1350 01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:10.079 I you know, I support that idea. I just I 1351 01:11:10.119 --> 01:11:12.079 just wish more people did it, and I wish and 1352 01:11:12.439 --> 01:11:14.760 it's part of why I like working with older directors 1353 01:11:14.800 --> 01:11:19.600 because they understand that and they they advocate for it, 1354 01:11:19.640 --> 01:11:20.960 you know what I mean. They don't go for the 1355 01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:24.239 easy solution because it helps the location department and they 1356 01:11:24.279 --> 01:11:26.920 don't have to pay off that business or whatever. I mean, No, no, no, 1357 01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:28.359 we're going to drop the truck for real and we're 1358 01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:29.600 going to blow it up. You know. 1359 01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:31.479 Can I I have to tell Can I tell you 1360 01:11:31.479 --> 01:11:34.199 a story really quickly because it's this is going to 1361 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:36.079 exactly what we're talking about. I had Simon West on 1362 01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:39.560 the show, who was a legendary action director, and he 1363 01:11:39.640 --> 01:11:42.640 was telling me how he did the con Air gag 1364 01:11:43.039 --> 01:11:46.399 when the plane crashed into Vegas and they found a 1365 01:11:46.439 --> 01:11:49.720 hotel that was going to be demolished, and like, hold on, 1366 01:11:50.560 --> 01:11:55.760 can we run a plane into the front for our movie? 1367 01:11:56.079 --> 01:11:58.720 And they said yes, and there was it shut down 1368 01:11:58.800 --> 01:12:00.880 Vegas for a minute. But the thing was, and this 1369 01:12:01.039 --> 01:12:03.399 goes to your point of like you have to plan ahead. 1370 01:12:03.880 --> 01:12:06.000 He had six cameras on that on that shot, it 1371 01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:08.399 was a one take you had. There was one take. 1372 01:12:10.359 --> 01:12:15.319 Someone said something over the over the the walkies the 1373 01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:17.239 cameras start. They just took off. But none of the 1374 01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:20.640 cameras were rolling. First A d was like, oh crap, 1375 01:12:21.079 --> 01:12:24.199 oh crap, yeah, to turn it on, turn it on, 1376 01:12:24.279 --> 01:12:26.119 So like to turn it on, we're going, We're going, 1377 01:12:26.119 --> 01:12:28.920 and everyone's like freaking out. And then he's like, I 1378 01:12:28.920 --> 01:12:32.520 had six, but then two four of them didn't work, 1379 01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:37.039 so I had two. And then we're like okay, and 1380 01:12:37.079 --> 01:12:39.159 like he told the whole stories, like three when three 1381 01:12:39.399 --> 01:12:42.399 didn't make it, there's all film, by the way, and 1382 01:12:42.439 --> 01:12:44.399 then the two made it. And then at the end 1383 01:12:44.439 --> 01:12:46.880 we only really one was out of focus because it's 1384 01:12:46.880 --> 01:12:49.239 the first day. D oh, that's right. The crews couldn't. 1385 01:12:49.479 --> 01:12:54.479 The crews were eating a crafty and they everything we 1386 01:12:54.479 --> 01:12:56.319 was going, so the cameras were going and they had 1387 01:12:56.319 --> 01:12:59.720 to run to turn them on. Wow, oh my god. 1388 01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:03.119 So the end they had one shot, one take on 1389 01:13:03.119 --> 01:13:06.039 one angle and that's the angle that got He's like, 1390 01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:09.000 I can't go back and shoot it again. This is 1391 01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:10.920 why you had six. If I would add five, we 1392 01:13:10.960 --> 01:13:14.399 would have been in trouble. But it's a different way 1393 01:13:14.399 --> 01:13:17.239 of knowing about it. 1394 01:13:17.239 --> 01:13:20.319 It is it is, it is, you know, and I 1395 01:13:20.359 --> 01:13:28.840 think I think it's in the sense if filmmaking has 1396 01:13:28.840 --> 01:13:31.319 been made it's it's easier now, you know, it's a 1397 01:13:31.319 --> 01:13:32.960 lot easier. I mean, you know, when I was growing 1398 01:13:33.039 --> 01:13:35.399 up and I was you know, I came out of 1399 01:13:35.399 --> 01:13:37.800 film school with one film, you know, and it was 1400 01:13:37.840 --> 01:13:40.479 like I had, you know, and it was it had 1401 01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:43.119 been transferred to Beta SP and I had a VHS 1402 01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:44.920 tape and I would go and show it to people 1403 01:13:44.960 --> 01:13:46.800 and hand them the VHS tape and look at my movie, 1404 01:13:46.920 --> 01:13:49.079 is ntsc you know? I had a let a box 1405 01:13:49.159 --> 01:13:52.439 on it at great quality, you know, yeah, exactly. And 1406 01:13:52.479 --> 01:13:55.800 then you know, if I wanted to make more copies, 1407 01:13:55.840 --> 01:13:57.800 I had to go find a place that had had 1408 01:13:57.800 --> 01:14:00.479 an SP deck because I couldn't dupe the VHS, you know. 1409 01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:03.520 And it's just like long before TVD. And you know, 1410 01:14:03.680 --> 01:14:05.159 kids come out of film school now and they have 1411 01:14:05.319 --> 01:14:07.159 like six movies that have all been made you know, 1412 01:14:07.199 --> 01:14:09.119 on a red camera or you know, on the Lexo 1413 01:14:09.279 --> 01:14:12.840 or something, and god, I mean I would have been, oh, 1414 01:14:13.520 --> 01:14:16.640 what a privilege, you know, what a tremendous privilege to have. 1415 01:14:16.760 --> 01:14:20.319 And you know, so that that and I think that 1416 01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:23.800 extends outward into cinema. So you know, so when people 1417 01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:26.319 are like, oh, I don't have any opportunities. I'm not 1418 01:14:26.399 --> 01:14:28.760 that empathetic, you know. 1419 01:14:31.319 --> 01:14:33.600 I'll listen. I mean, I spent fifty grand on my 1420 01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:35.800 first demo reel for as a commercial director, shooting on 1421 01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:38.680 thirty five because you had to shoot thirty five and 1422 01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:41.000 I would make beta sp masters and then I would 1423 01:14:41.000 --> 01:14:44.319 convert them to three quarter inch. And that's when I've 1424 01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:47.039 been send out to the agencies because VHS that's that 1425 01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:49.279 was for amateurs. So then it was the cost and 1426 01:14:49.359 --> 01:14:51.640 I had to make with the big clam cases and 1427 01:14:51.640 --> 01:14:54.199 I'd had the FedEx them all over the place, and 1428 01:14:54.199 --> 01:14:55.960 and it was like and now they're like, oh, yeah, 1429 01:14:55.960 --> 01:14:57.880 I shot this thing on an iPhone And I'm like 1430 01:14:57.920 --> 01:14:58.960 you sounds a bit. 1431 01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:04.720 Like yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you know, there was 1432 01:15:04.760 --> 01:15:05.960 no video when I. 1433 01:15:05.880 --> 01:15:08.079 Was you know, when I just came out, there was 1434 01:15:08.079 --> 01:15:10.560 no internet sort of, let's just go there was no internet. 1435 01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:16.760 There's definitely no video. There was no video online, especially 1436 01:15:16.800 --> 01:15:22.439 when I came out. Yeah, not that good video at least. Now, 1437 01:15:22.560 --> 01:15:27.439 when does the Votion come out? Say that again, when 1438 01:15:27.439 --> 01:15:28.680 does the Votion come out? 1439 01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:36.199 Uh? November twenty fourth, right, so just. 1440 01:15:36.119 --> 01:15:38.279 For the holidays, And it seems like a it seems 1441 01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:41.199 like cinematic experience. You got to go see it in 1442 01:15:41.199 --> 01:15:41.640 the movies. 1443 01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:45.920 I I hope everyone does. Yeah, we did it. There's 1444 01:15:45.920 --> 01:15:48.479 an Imax release. If you have an Imax theater near you, 1445 01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:52.079 you can see it. That's exciting. It's the first film 1446 01:15:52.119 --> 01:15:55.239 I'm done it's been Imax and yeah, I think it's 1447 01:15:55.319 --> 01:15:57.479 you know it's It's certainly a story and a film 1448 01:15:57.520 --> 01:15:59.560 that deserves to be seen day. It was intended to 1449 01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:01.239 be seen big. You know, we shot up to be 1450 01:16:01.279 --> 01:16:01.840 seen big. 1451 01:16:03.079 --> 01:16:05.079 Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions, ask 1452 01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:07.840 all my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker 1453 01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:12.159 trying to break into the business today. 1454 01:16:14.439 --> 01:16:17.000 Everybody's going to tell you now and that your work 1455 01:16:17.039 --> 01:16:18.439 isn't any good and you can't do it, and you 1456 01:16:18.479 --> 01:16:20.800 got to ignore them fair enough? 1457 01:16:21.239 --> 01:16:23.199 What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, 1458 01:16:23.239 --> 01:16:24.600 whether in the film business or. 1459 01:16:24.520 --> 01:16:37.720 In life, that that there's always another job. But but 1460 01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:42.520 you have to uh, there's there's always another job, and 1461 01:16:42.560 --> 01:16:45.840 the time off is is more important than the time 1462 01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:49.039 at work. So you've got to prioritize. You have to 1463 01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:51.399 you have to prioritize your time off with the people 1464 01:16:51.439 --> 01:16:54.279 that you love. That's that's that's the thing. That's that's 1465 01:16:54.560 --> 01:16:55.640 most important. I think. 1466 01:16:56.119 --> 01:16:58.760 And as I've talked to a lot of dps in 1467 01:16:58.920 --> 01:17:01.880 my day and worked with the like, dude, the divorce 1468 01:17:01.960 --> 01:17:06.680 rate is pretty high. I mean, it's not it's no joke. 1469 01:17:06.800 --> 01:17:09.640 It's no joke. Especially when you become successful as a DP, 1470 01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:13.520 the balance is really difficult. It's difficult to do. So 1471 01:17:13.600 --> 01:17:16.000 that's something they don't tell you when you start walking 1472 01:17:16.000 --> 01:17:16.520 down this path. 1473 01:17:16.680 --> 01:17:19.560 No, they don't, But that was really I mean, look, 1474 01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:23.119 you know, I I think I spent twenty eight days 1475 01:17:23.159 --> 01:17:26.079 in my bed last year, you know. I mean, it's it's, 1476 01:17:26.159 --> 01:17:28.479 it's it's challenging. You know. I spend a lot of 1477 01:17:28.520 --> 01:17:30.239 time in hotels, a lot of traveling, and it's a 1478 01:17:30.239 --> 01:17:32.319 lot to ask if your loved ones and your family 1479 01:17:32.359 --> 01:17:36.119 and it's, yeah, you know, it's they don't. You're right. 1480 01:17:36.159 --> 01:17:38.079 They don't teach you that in film school and they should. 1481 01:17:38.119 --> 01:17:40.840 And you know, when I speak to students or whatever, 1482 01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:42.960 I try to I try to say, listen, you know, 1483 01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:46.319 if you want to get in this, make sure that 1484 01:17:46.359 --> 01:17:50.439 you're ready for that, you know, because it's it's, it's 1485 01:17:50.560 --> 01:17:52.479 it can be quite quite challenging. 1486 01:17:52.119 --> 01:17:55.079 For sure, it's the Carnee life, sir. We are just 1487 01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:59.279 carnies and putting up tents, putting on shows and taking 1488 01:17:59.279 --> 01:18:02.520 the tent down, getting everything on the train and going 1489 01:18:02.560 --> 01:18:06.039 to the next location setting up shop again. We're cardials 1490 01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:09.039 at the end of the day. Now and last question, 1491 01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:10.399 three of your favorite films of all time? 1492 01:18:12.479 --> 01:18:14.319 Oh god, how much time do you have? That's a 1493 01:18:14.319 --> 01:18:14.840 long list. 1494 01:18:15.640 --> 01:18:17.840 Just three, just three of your three of your favorite 1495 01:18:17.840 --> 01:18:19.680 films that come up in your mind today? 1496 01:18:20.800 --> 01:18:23.680 Oh my god. I mean, I you know, if people 1497 01:18:23.680 --> 01:18:29.880 ask me that question all the time, I think Chinatown's 1498 01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:41.239 way up there. Close Encounters, mm hmmm. Probably. God. Now 1499 01:18:41.239 --> 01:18:43.520 you're now you're gonna make me pick a number three. 1500 01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:49.359 You know, I should pick a I should pick a 1501 01:18:49.399 --> 01:18:53.479 foreign film because it's underrepresented in the list fair enough enough, 1502 01:18:54.760 --> 01:18:57.079 and my colleagues will judge me. But I'm not going 1503 01:18:57.159 --> 01:19:00.880 to do that. I mean, I think Raiders Lust Start probably. 1504 01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:02.479 I mean, it's just it's like those I just think 1505 01:19:02.520 --> 01:19:04.640 about the movies that I They are the movies I 1506 01:19:04.680 --> 01:19:07.880 admire and I respond to creatively, and then they are 1507 01:19:07.920 --> 01:19:11.039 the movies that I have seen a hundred times, and 1508 01:19:12.199 --> 01:19:13.680 that is one of them. Is It's like one of 1509 01:19:13.720 --> 01:19:15.760 those movies that I've just probably I've probably seen it 1510 01:19:15.800 --> 01:19:17.079 one hundred and fifty times, yea. 1511 01:19:17.119 --> 01:19:20.359 And they move and they moved the medium forward. All 1512 01:19:20.359 --> 01:19:23.800 three of those movies moved the medium forward in one way, 1513 01:19:23.840 --> 01:19:27.159 shape or form. And Steven for sure, And I can't 1514 01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:29.600 even start talking about Steven. I mean, Jesus, I mean, 1515 01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:32.119 I've had so many people on the show who've worked 1516 01:19:32.119 --> 01:19:36.039 with Steven, and I just yeah, I'm not going to 1517 01:19:36.079 --> 01:19:39.960 gush over Stephen, but yeah, but brother man, thank you 1518 01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:42.239 so much for coming on the show, sharing your sharing 1519 01:19:42.279 --> 01:19:45.199 your experiences with us. And I can't wait to see 1520 01:19:45.279 --> 01:19:47.000 Devotion and I hope everybody goes out in the theater 1521 01:19:47.079 --> 01:19:49.159 and actually sees it it's in a theater just like 1522 01:19:49.199 --> 01:19:53.119 they did Top Gun Maverick and enjoy the real life 1523 01:19:53.199 --> 01:19:55.319 spectacle that you kind of put together. Brothers. So I 1524 01:19:55.319 --> 01:19:57.840 really appreciate your time in and continue doing some great where. 1525 01:19:57.840 --> 01:20:00.840 I can't wait to see Ferrari and Killer That those 1526 01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:03.840 two another two films. I mean again, you're you're doing 1527 01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:05.159 okay for yourself right now, sir. 1528 01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:09.159 Thanks Al Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying one day at a. 1529 01:20:09.119 --> 01:20:11.600 Time, you know, a pleasure, brother, thanks appreciate it. 1530 01:20:11.600 --> 01:20:13.319 Thanks so much, man cheerus. 1531 01:20:13.960 --> 01:20:15.600 I want to thank Eric so much for coming on 1532 01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:18.520 the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. 1533 01:20:18.760 --> 01:20:20.239 Thank you again so much. Eric. If you want to 1534 01:20:20.239 --> 01:20:22.279 get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, 1535 01:20:22.279 --> 01:20:25.680 including how to watch his new film Devotion, head over 1536 01:20:25.760 --> 01:20:29.119 to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward 1537 01:20:29.119 --> 01:20:31.880 slash three ninety one. Thank you so much for listening, guys, 1538 01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:35.159 as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk 1539 01:20:35.159 --> 01:20:35.560 to you soon. 1540 01:20:36.039 --> 01:20:39.960 Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof 1541 01:20:40.039 --> 01:20:41.439 Screenwriting dot tv.