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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, and a lot of to see. If it matters,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening again. Need me today is Hans Pullet,

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<v Speaker 1>scientific director at ILVU, the Belgian Research Institute for Agriculture,

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<v Speaker 1>Fasherism and Food. Welcome Hans, thanks for joining me.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, thank you very much, Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, thank you. We could start by asking you

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<v Speaker 1>about the EU fasheries management, any of the frustrations or burdens.

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<v Speaker 1>What is good about the EU Common Fashionries policy.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I've always been a fan of the EU and

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<v Speaker 2>of the common Fisheriest policy. I've been doing this job

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<v Speaker 2>for thirty five years and I've seen a lot of benefits.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's thanks to the common fisheriest policy that

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<v Speaker 2>we still have, you know, fish in the sea. It

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<v Speaker 2>mainly helped bring let's say, the capacity of the fishing

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<v Speaker 2>fleet in balance with the productivity of fish stocks. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think some ten years ago we kind of read

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<v Speaker 2>that and I was very positive and optimistic about the

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<v Speaker 2>future back then. But somewhere along the road I lost

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<v Speaker 2>my faith, being confronted well with, first of all, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of frustration in the fishing industry, and as I

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<v Speaker 2>have plenty contacts, I've been at sea a lot. I

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<v Speaker 2>really wanted to have a deep look into that issue.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not a fisherist manager, I'm not a fisheriest biologist.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a fishing gear technologist, so I from a very

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<v Speaker 2>technical side of the thing. I've been studying fisheries a

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<v Speaker 2>bit ignorant about management and stockers. But then I saw

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<v Speaker 2>things going wrong. I saw a lot of complaints of

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<v Speaker 2>parties involved, and I started having a deeper look into

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<v Speaker 2>stock assessment and fisheries management, and I kind of saw that, well,

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<v Speaker 2>let's say, at all levels of the whole fishery system,

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<v Speaker 2>I see flaws. I see problems, big ones, small ones,

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<v Speaker 2>and each one on its own probably not dramatic, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think if you add it all up, bring it

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<v Speaker 2>all together, I think we have a system that's well

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<v Speaker 2>in desperate need of innovation.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's say, Wow, such dramatic and desperate need desperate.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, go ahead, Sorry, No.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just that when the way you said that, if

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<v Speaker 1>you could see it was pretty important that it did

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<v Speaker 1>get Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, actually, coincidently, this morning we had our meeting with

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<v Speaker 2>the fishing industry where we pose the advices and scientific

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<v Speaker 2>advices that have been made in ices for the fish

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<v Speaker 2>stocks they fish, and well, it's negativity all around. They

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<v Speaker 2>don't agree with the results. They are afraid of the future.

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<v Speaker 2>They kind of say or predict that they will be

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<v Speaker 2>able to maybe fish for another few years, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to an end. They're very pessimistic for different reasons.

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<v Speaker 2>First of all, in the de light of what we

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<v Speaker 2>discussed today, the accuracy of the determination of the THACS,

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<v Speaker 2>so the total allowable catches the quota. In a number

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<v Speaker 2>of cases they agree, but in many cases they completely

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<v Speaker 2>disagree with the advice and they have a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>difficulties coping with they say, the complexity of the common

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<v Speaker 2>fisheriest policy, of what European managers are imposing on the system.

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<v Speaker 2>They have a huge out of administrative tasks too much,

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<v Speaker 2>and many of them they don't see why they have

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<v Speaker 2>to do with what's the added value. And they suffer from,

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<v Speaker 2>let's say, the top down micromanagement and the very strong

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<v Speaker 2>focus on control and enforcement. So within the whole system

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<v Speaker 2>there's pressure on the fishing industry. And then they have

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<v Speaker 2>to cope with nature protection. They have to cope with

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<v Speaker 2>wind farms coming in and taking fishing grounds. They have

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<v Speaker 2>to cope with closed areas or areas with restrictions they

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<v Speaker 2>have to cope with not to underestimate the consequences of

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<v Speaker 2>climate change, and then climate change kind of messes up

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<v Speaker 2>the whole stock assessment. Scientific fisheries advice. They have to

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<v Speaker 2>cope with these things. They have to cope with a

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<v Speaker 2>landing obligation that gives them choke species which makes them

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<v Speaker 2>stop fishing often or wouldn't say often, but in some

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<v Speaker 2>cases with the wrong quota, so the quota are underestimated,

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<v Speaker 2>so they have to stop fishing while there's still that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of fish and thecy so all these things together

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<v Speaker 2>make that already quite a few fishing vessels have left

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<v Speaker 2>the industry and they say, well, many more will follow

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<v Speaker 2>if we don't change the system.

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<v Speaker 1>It sounds the way you talk there, and it sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like very similar to what we've very often find and

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<v Speaker 1>the UK that you get specially scientists and the civil servants,

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<v Speaker 1>and they don't listen to fast Man and they know better.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they see the daily reality and that's what well,

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<v Speaker 2>mainly I think managers and brussels are missing, but also

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<v Speaker 2>quite a few scientists. We don't want to criticize these people.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean they are my colleagues and I'm part of it,

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<v Speaker 2>and they are hard working people and very clever. But

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<v Speaker 2>often we have let's say the modelers who do the

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<v Speaker 2>computer work and simulating the ecosystem and the fish stocks.

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<v Speaker 2>These people are quite detached from reality as well. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a scientists who go at sea they have a good feeling,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's often not the scientists who do the actual

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<v Speaker 2>scientific work the stock SYSM. So there's a difference between

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<v Speaker 2>data collection and stocka SYSM. So the further you are

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<v Speaker 2>up the chain of the say the scientific system, the

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<v Speaker 2>further you are from the reality. And that's something that

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<v Speaker 2>we are lacking in science. We really should get that

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<v Speaker 2>feel again with reality, and for that you need a

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<v Speaker 2>good and intense contact with the fishing industry. That's what's

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<v Speaker 2>often missing. I mean, I think in Belgium we're doing

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<v Speaker 2>it to be not humble for once, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>we're doing a terrific job. We have been working to

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<v Speaker 2>other intensely with a fishing industry for the last fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>years and the nice thing about that is that we

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<v Speaker 2>have access to all their information, all their data, so

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<v Speaker 2>we actually have a direct link to all the instruments

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<v Speaker 2>on board. Also the scale. They also allow cameras on

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<v Speaker 2>board and we have real time accumulation of this data

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<v Speaker 2>in our data bases, so every hour we get this information.

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<v Speaker 2>So just because of the good relationship we have built,

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<v Speaker 2>there is trust risk cooperation and we have access to

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<v Speaker 2>all the data we need. Now. Of course, in order

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<v Speaker 2>to actually get the real value of this data out

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<v Speaker 2>of there, we cannot do it in the present management system.

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<v Speaker 2>We have to change the system. But we can come

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<v Speaker 2>back to that later. But to come back to your question,

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<v Speaker 2>is actually the fissures who see the reality, who are

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<v Speaker 2>confronted or reality and also confronted with the scientific advice

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<v Speaker 2>and often these two don't match, and so what what

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<v Speaker 2>to do then? And that that's the one of the

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<v Speaker 2>puzzles we are facing now, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>It takes me my mind has to two conversations I've

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<v Speaker 1>had in previous podcasts, one more recent and at the fact,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just wondering if you're maybe would know the guy is.

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<v Speaker 1>He was many years with the Marine Laboratory in albernein

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<v Speaker 1>and he was involved with gear Jack Roberts.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, I remember him very well. I mean he

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<v Speaker 2>was active quite long before I became a scientist. But

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<v Speaker 2>I've been. I have seen a lot of his underwater

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<v Speaker 2>footage because I think he was he was a diver

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<v Speaker 2>now taking filming fishing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, and he is what he classes as his

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<v Speaker 1>baby was the square mesh, cod ends and panel and

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<v Speaker 1>the point I put hands and be interested in just

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<v Speaker 1>to put the same to you, it was some I

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<v Speaker 1>would have I was having a conversation with an a

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<v Speaker 1>fishery scientist in Iceland on Christians and his name and

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<v Speaker 1>he's well retired. I mean he's in his eighties. Now

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<v Speaker 1>what his The point he made with Jack pretty much

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<v Speaker 1>agreed with be interesting to get your view. He says,

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<v Speaker 1>when they were doing the job, all they did was

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<v Speaker 1>they were out in trawlers and do all their work,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the assessments and surveys, and it would all

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<v Speaker 1>be done out on trawlers with fishermen. And then they

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<v Speaker 1>decided they were going to get their own vessels.

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<v Speaker 3>And the way he put it, which is not in cdios,

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<v Speaker 3>that he says, oh, we don't want to go out

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<v Speaker 3>on dirty, smelly trollers. We'll have our own maze news

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<v Speaker 3>ships and he reckons. That was pretty much one of

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<v Speaker 3>the biggest mistakes they ever made in Iceland because he

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<v Speaker 3>says they twok freshermen on scientists apart.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's a lot of truth in that. I

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<v Speaker 2>can't even say that we are heading in the other

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<v Speaker 2>direction again. We're moving away from research vessels to do

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of service and we are starting to do

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<v Speaker 2>them again on commercial vessels. First of all, the need,

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, the contact between the fishers and the scientists.

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<v Speaker 2>Scientists have to understand what fishers are facing, the problems

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<v Speaker 2>they are facing at sea. And at the other hand,

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<v Speaker 2>it's very interesting as fishers start to understand the whole

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<v Speaker 2>stock assessment system and how this prediction of the fish stocks,

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<v Speaker 2>how this works, so that they come to some mutual

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<v Speaker 2>understanding and they find some common ground, and that's very

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<v Speaker 2>important for cooperation. And then I have a bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a problem with surveys on research vessels. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>won't talk for the other countries, but for Belgium, we

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<v Speaker 2>have a research vessel of seventeen meters long, three eight

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<v Speaker 2>hundred tons, towing a beam troll of four meter and

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<v Speaker 2>a beamtroll of eight meter. I mean that's the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of troll that is towed by a twenty four beam

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<v Speaker 2>troller with a tonage of seventy tons. I mean, so

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<v Speaker 2>I have a fishing gear that is towed by a

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<v Speaker 2>vessel that is fifty times the tottage compared to the

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<v Speaker 2>fishing vessel. I have a problem with that. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>if the weather is if the sea is flat, there's

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<v Speaker 2>probably does not so much of an issition. But as

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<v Speaker 2>soon as that vessel starts moving, that fishing gear is

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<v Speaker 2>a toy. Just the stone off the ground is not

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<v Speaker 2>the fishing anymore. And that's the advantage of scientists like

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<v Speaker 2>me who have been at sea a lot, who know

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<v Speaker 2>how fishing gears work. That thanks also to Jack Robertson

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<v Speaker 2>who took the video footage of these gear so you

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<v Speaker 2>can actually see how it operates, how it moves on

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<v Speaker 2>the seafloor. If you don't know that, you have no

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<v Speaker 2>idea what's going on. And then you're on your fish

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<v Speaker 2>on your research vessel, and you follow the scientific procedure

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<v Speaker 2>and you think you are doing the right thing. And

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<v Speaker 2>they they are honest people. I don't doubt them, but

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<v Speaker 2>I doubt their practical knowledge. And you you actually need

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<v Speaker 2>fishers to to do something like that properly. If you

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<v Speaker 2>go on board of a fishing vessel to do this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of service. Then you have the right fishing vessel

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<v Speaker 2>with the right fishing gear and the right expertise on

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<v Speaker 2>board to make the gear work. I mean, if you

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<v Speaker 2>go on board of a beam troller you have two trolls.

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<v Speaker 2>The skipper each hole looks in detail at the difference

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<v Speaker 2>of the catch of the two gears, because he knows

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<v Speaker 2>that while you are fishing, things change in the gear,

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<v Speaker 2>a little damage or so, and the catching effisiency can

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly go down. So that every hole they adjust the

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<v Speaker 2>fishing gear if it's needed, and they do that with

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<v Speaker 2>their practical knowledge, which most scientists don't have. So this

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<v Speaker 2>cooperation is essential.

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<v Speaker 1>That's really interesting and it's what fascinates me. Not so

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<v Speaker 1>much fascinates me, but it's a talent point. And listen,

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<v Speaker 1>you say that every person involved in this, who I

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<v Speaker 1>read and I know, is doing good things. They all

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<v Speaker 1>say the same, just exactly the same as your said.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's really interesting, And it's credit to Belgium if

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<v Speaker 1>you're going I don't think that's when you're doing that

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<v Speaker 1>again with the fissures. That's not a backward step. I

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<v Speaker 1>see that, although it's maybe doing what they did before,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's not and it's forward.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a forward step definitely. And the thing is, if

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<v Speaker 2>you start this cooperation with the fishing fleet, you can

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<v Speaker 2>actually change the system. For example, for the survey. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's a very interesting example. I talked to you

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<v Speaker 2>about the technical side of things. There's also the temporal

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<v Speaker 2>side of things. The survey is they usually go on

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<v Speaker 2>in the month of September, and they do that every year,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's a good thing. I mean, it's it's a

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<v Speaker 2>time series and you can see through time how the

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<v Speaker 2>fish evolves, but you're limited to the month of September. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>we also know that with climate change that seasons move.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, fish behavior follows the weather and the temperature

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<v Speaker 2>in the sea and so on, and due to climate change,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a shift. So things that were happening in September

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<v Speaker 2>in the past maybe now are happening in October or

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<v Speaker 2>in August. These things change. So what are you actually

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<v Speaker 2>measuring with your survey in September? Are you measuring the

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<v Speaker 2>same thing as ten years ago? Can you use that

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<v Speaker 2>time series with confidence? I have doubts. What I'm advocating

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<v Speaker 2>for if that is that you use the fishing flee

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<v Speaker 2>to do your surveys and allow the fissures or work

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<v Speaker 2>together with the scientists to have kind of this young

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<v Speaker 2>fish survey, because that's what these surveys are, after the

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<v Speaker 2>fish with fishing gear, with small measures to catch the

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<v Speaker 2>young fish. So your young fish survey, you should spread

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<v Speaker 2>it over the whole year. And if you use the

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<v Speaker 2>fishing flee to do that and you give kind of

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<v Speaker 2>assignments to the different vessels to go fish there with

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<v Speaker 2>small messhon there there, spread over the year, you get

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<v Speaker 2>that picture of the young fish over a wide area

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<v Speaker 2>throughout time, so you can actually follow up how fish

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<v Speaker 2>move geographically, how it changes in time, how quickly they grow,

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<v Speaker 2>what is the mortality rate? All this information you get

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<v Speaker 2>thanks to spreading the surveys over a wide area and

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<v Speaker 2>throughout the year. And really I'm really advocating for that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think this would be a big step forward, especially

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<v Speaker 2>because with climate change you have these sudden changes or

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<v Speaker 2>these huge changes that you don't pick up with a

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<v Speaker 2>regular surveys or not quickly enough. So if you do that,

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<v Speaker 2>if you can do that quickly, as a manager, you

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<v Speaker 2>can react quickly. As a fisher, you can react quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>You also have a better idea about the geographical distribution

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<v Speaker 2>of the young fish. I mean, you want to save

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<v Speaker 2>the young fish. If you don't know where they are,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not easy when you plan your fishery as a

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<v Speaker 2>fisher But if you have these maps, let's say, kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a heat maps of distribution maps of small fish,

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<v Speaker 2>then and you know where they are and how they move,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know where the commercial fish is that you

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<v Speaker 2>are targeting, well you can plan your fishery to save

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<v Speaker 2>the young fish and maximize the catch of your marketable fish.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's a lot of value in this cooperation and

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<v Speaker 2>in better data collection.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, correctly. What I'm a little bit puzzled with when

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<v Speaker 1>you see what you're doing in Belgium, can you do that?

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<v Speaker 1>And I thought it would have to be eel policy. No,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>No, we are not doing this yet. This is what

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<v Speaker 2>we are suggesting. We have this, We have this alternative

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<v Speaker 2>approach that we would like to have. We would like

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<v Speaker 2>to for example, we would like to do that in

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<v Speaker 2>the North Sea and we would really love to have

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<v Speaker 2>the British there. I missed my old friend them since

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<v Speaker 2>the Brexit, But I mean it makes a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>sense to manage an area like the North Sea with

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<v Speaker 2>the same rules, with the same scientific approach, with the

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<v Speaker 2>same cooperation together. You know, we are if we are

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<v Speaker 2>politically separated. I mean, fish don't have borders, no, so

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<v Speaker 2>let's co operate there. But the thing is now, we

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<v Speaker 2>are not allowed to do that yet, so this survey

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<v Speaker 2>is on board. Yes, we can do survice on board

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<v Speaker 2>of commercial vessels, but that's a much different approach. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to really plan, and so we are still stuck

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<v Speaker 2>with the surveys in September. We do that on board

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<v Speaker 2>of mostly on board of commercial vessels now, and we

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<v Speaker 2>have to have a special permission to do that. So

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<v Speaker 2>as long as we stay in Belgian waters that's not

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00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.440
<v Speaker 2>so difficult. But our survey goes beyond that British and

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<v Speaker 2>Dutch waters, and so we need a special permission and

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<v Speaker 2>it often takes us six months to get that permission.

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<v Speaker 2>So I mean there's an administrative burden there as well,

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<v Speaker 2>so we should get rid of.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, when you when you said that, when you made

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<v Speaker 1>the point the good borders don't know borders, I think

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<v Speaker 1>I think is that the term you used?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>I think so, yes, I would I would take that

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<v Speaker 1>at stage further hands and say personally said this, and

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<v Speaker 1>and people like yourselves don't have borders, s preasures don't

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00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:41.319
<v Speaker 1>have borders. It's just when you take politicians and that's

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<v Speaker 1>when the problems starts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's but I think we're stuck with that system.

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<v Speaker 1>And what would you say is gone wrong with the

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<v Speaker 1>U c f p E.

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<v Speaker 2>Common Facial Well, I think when you have a system,

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00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:02.319
<v Speaker 2>any system to manage something, and you see some flaws

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00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.960
<v Speaker 2>and you want to improve, well, you add a layer

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00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:09.880
<v Speaker 2>of additional rules, and then a few years later there's

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<v Speaker 2>again a people look at the quality of the system

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00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.359
<v Speaker 2>and they see some flaws again, and so every so

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00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:22.480
<v Speaker 2>many years there's a layer of regulations and administrations added

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00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.880
<v Speaker 2>to the system, which more and more makes it complicated.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the same with most of the management systems in

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00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:35.160
<v Speaker 2>our society. And that's what politics do. Politics identify a

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00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:39.279
<v Speaker 2>problem and they add a number of laws and regulations

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00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.000
<v Speaker 2>to solve it. But if you keep on doing that,

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00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.559
<v Speaker 2>after a while, your system becomes so complex that it

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00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.559
<v Speaker 2>is just not workable anymore. And that's this is what

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00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.759
<v Speaker 2>we have seen in the Common Fisheriest policy. There's very

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00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.599
<v Speaker 2>few people actually understand the whole system. Ask an inspector

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00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:00.599
<v Speaker 2>when it goes. Let's see if you know all the

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00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:05.319
<v Speaker 2>technical measures and can actually see any fishing gear, if

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00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.759
<v Speaker 2>all these things are correctly rigged or not. I think

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00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.920
<v Speaker 2>they know that. The main things that they don't know everything.

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<v Speaker 2>For a number of regulations. They don't know exactly if

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00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:21.119
<v Speaker 2>it goes about selective panels, square meshed panels, for example,

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00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.799
<v Speaker 2>how exactly it must be fixed in a gear. It's

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00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.200
<v Speaker 2>not easy, and to control that is not easy. So

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00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:34.880
<v Speaker 2>it's all becoming too complex and well, the common fisheriest

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<v Speaker 2>policy has always stimulated innovation in science in fisheries. I'm

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00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.599
<v Speaker 2>really grateful for that. But the one thing they forgot

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00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:49.000
<v Speaker 2>is to innovate themselves. So we have an old fashion system. Yeah,

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00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.880
<v Speaker 2>the same with fisheries science. I think we still have.

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00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.319
<v Speaker 2>Of course, it has improved over the years. It has

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00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:59.599
<v Speaker 2>become more and more efficient, but the basic system is

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00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:04.240
<v Speaker 2>still Beverton and hold Stock assessment idea from behind the

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00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.440
<v Speaker 2>second just after the Second World War. We're still working

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00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:11.319
<v Speaker 2>with the same ideas. We have to fundamentally reform and

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00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.200
<v Speaker 2>not just ajust. But that's what we're doing. Every adjusting

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00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:16.359
<v Speaker 2>a little bit and fixing this a little bit and

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00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.519
<v Speaker 2>in the end, well it's more or less acceptable for everybody,

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00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:21.000
<v Speaker 2>but it doesn't really.

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<v Speaker 1>Work, and are would you say creatures? Our scientists are

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<v Speaker 1>happy with the management system.

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<v Speaker 2>I have the impression that amongst scientists they have just

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00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.359
<v Speaker 2>learned to live with the system and have kind of

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00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:47.599
<v Speaker 2>accepted it and try to cope with it. And especially

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00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.839
<v Speaker 2>the younger people. I mean, they come into that system

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<v Speaker 2>and this is what it is, and this is what

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00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:57.519
<v Speaker 2>they have to work with. I mean, I have seen

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00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:01.359
<v Speaker 2>the system evolving over thirty five five years. I have

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00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:04.279
<v Speaker 2>seen strengths and weaknesses coming back, and I know where

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00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>the system is flawed. But most scientists just just cope

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00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:12.279
<v Speaker 2>with it. And one other thing, yeah, yeah, well, I

356
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:16.759
<v Speaker 2>think the most important thing is that most scientists don't

357
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:22.359
<v Speaker 2>believe that we can fundamentally reform the system. They just say, well,

358
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<v Speaker 2>that's a missy mission, impossible. Let's not try even try that.

359
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:29.640
<v Speaker 2>Don't put energy in. That won't work. We will try

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00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:32.079
<v Speaker 2>to fiddler around and try to copy with it. That's

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<v Speaker 2>the attitude.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you see the flaws and that you feel

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<v Speaker 1>the common vers it's policy could be built around a

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<v Speaker 1>lack of proper information.

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<v Speaker 2>A lack of proper information. No, I think you you

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<v Speaker 2>need decent information to manage this, of course. Yeah, well

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<v Speaker 2>I think no.

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<v Speaker 1>But do you think it's built on although they didn't

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<v Speaker 1>realize that?

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<v Speaker 2>Can you rephrase your question and I don't think I under.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, Sorry, I'm just asking what with freshialties, scientific fressurities advised?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it if the common fashionist policy is built around

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<v Speaker 1>a lack of information?

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<v Speaker 2>Ah? Yes, I think so, a lack of a lack

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00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:19.799
<v Speaker 2>of knowledge of the reality at sea. I really think

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00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:24.000
<v Speaker 2>that that's the thing, because you have a management system

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00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:29.519
<v Speaker 2>in the EU that's focused on control and enforced enforcement.

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<v Speaker 2>So by this definition, it's based on distrust between the

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00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:40.039
<v Speaker 2>managers and the fishers, and the consequence is that the

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00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:43.920
<v Speaker 2>fishers will not release all the information they have. They

381
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:48.920
<v Speaker 2>will often even release information that is just not true.

382
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:51.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you have regulations that are too complex

383
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:56.119
<v Speaker 2>to follow, well, then fishers will find a way around

384
00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.839
<v Speaker 2>it and will withhold information that is real, reliable, and

385
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.839
<v Speaker 2>will spread information that is just wrong. As a consequence,

386
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:10.640
<v Speaker 2>the perception of the fisheries, of managers and often scientists

387
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:14.920
<v Speaker 2>as well, is not correct, does not reflect the reality

388
00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.720
<v Speaker 2>at sea. So if you look at all the different

389
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.480
<v Speaker 2>data sources that we use as scientists, well, each of

390
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:26.559
<v Speaker 2>these data sources have an issue. Lockbook data I mean

391
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:29.599
<v Speaker 2>logbook DTA. We have one data in twenty four hours

392
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:33.000
<v Speaker 2>that's to start with low resolution. It's so called digitized,

393
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.559
<v Speaker 2>but it's still manually put in, so it's open to errors,

394
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:40.720
<v Speaker 2>it's open to fraud, and we know there is fraud.

395
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:46.039
<v Speaker 2>So logbook data are I think, not very reliable. It's

396
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:51.759
<v Speaker 2>not as I mean, the scientific system will not crash

397
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.319
<v Speaker 2>or be completely wrong because of the logbook data. But

398
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.160
<v Speaker 2>if you add the other uncertainties to it, I think

399
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.079
<v Speaker 2>you really get to have a problem. For example, discards

400
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.880
<v Speaker 2>for stock assessment, we have to know how much fish die,

401
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:09.279
<v Speaker 2>so we also should know how much of the small

402
00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:14.799
<v Speaker 2>fish is called and thrown back overboard. We send observers

403
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.880
<v Speaker 2>at sea to do that, and we have a coverage

404
00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:20.440
<v Speaker 2>of about one percent. Now every fisher who goes at

405
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 2>sea knows that variability of fish catches is very high.

406
00:26:25.559 --> 00:26:28.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you fish at one side of the sandbank

407
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.119
<v Speaker 2>and you get this type of catch, and you move

408
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:35.200
<v Speaker 2>one hundred meters to the other side of the sand

409
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:38.559
<v Speaker 2>bank and you get a completely different catch composition. Fish

410
00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:44.559
<v Speaker 2>catches are very very variable, so you need a really

411
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.039
<v Speaker 2>high sampling percentage to get reliable data. If you only

412
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.799
<v Speaker 2>have one percent, well I have doubts. I'm only a

413
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:57.240
<v Speaker 2>simple fishing gear technologists, but I mean, if you know

414
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:00.160
<v Speaker 2>how fish catches are and you know your own have

415
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:04.759
<v Speaker 2>one percent coverage, I think there's a problem. Then scientists

416
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:07.640
<v Speaker 2>challenge me and say, do you have any scientific proof

417
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:10.359
<v Speaker 2>that statistically this one percent is not enough?

418
00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:10.839
<v Speaker 1>No?

419
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.039
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, I don't. I don't. It's just my common sense,

420
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.640
<v Speaker 2>which can be wrong, of course, But I mean that

421
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.759
<v Speaker 2>there's just quite because there's a question there. But then

422
00:27:22.799 --> 00:27:27.759
<v Speaker 2>there's other uncertainties, like, for example, natural mortality. In fish

423
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:32.119
<v Speaker 2>stock assessment models, natural mortality is very important because you

424
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:35.759
<v Speaker 2>have to assess of all the different ages every year

425
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:38.480
<v Speaker 2>how much fish will die. So part of them will

426
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 2>die due to fisheries, and this is something you can

427
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:44.920
<v Speaker 2>more or less measure with an error which is I

428
00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:48.160
<v Speaker 2>guess too large. But you also have to estimate how

429
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.480
<v Speaker 2>many fish die a natural death, and for small fish

430
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.000
<v Speaker 2>this can be very high. Usually this number is kept

431
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:01.240
<v Speaker 2>constant every year because it's very difficult to to measure

432
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:05.039
<v Speaker 2>in the sea. How much fish die a natural death,

433
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:09.000
<v Speaker 2>that's a very difficult thing to do, so they try

434
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.160
<v Speaker 2>to estimate this based on a number of parameters, and

435
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:15.160
<v Speaker 2>because we don't have the information, it is kept constant

436
00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:21.359
<v Speaker 2>over the years. Now, in a stable ecosystem with stable climate,

437
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:24.880
<v Speaker 2>stable weather, I think this is not really a problem.

438
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:27.039
<v Speaker 2>So I think for many decades this was not a

439
00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:30.640
<v Speaker 2>problem before climate change started to kick in. Now we

440
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:34.039
<v Speaker 2>see with climate change that things are happening. For example,

441
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:37.519
<v Speaker 2>we didn't used to have squid in the North Sea

442
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and we had pelagic fish stocks herring, mackerel. Now the

443
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.880
<v Speaker 2>last three four five years we see massive amounts of

444
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:49.799
<v Speaker 2>squid coming into the North Sea. They eat things. If

445
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:52.519
<v Speaker 2>they are massive in numbers, well, fish they eat is

446
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:55.480
<v Speaker 2>massive as well, so they eat herrings, they eat all

447
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:59.279
<v Speaker 2>this kind of pelagic fish. But this is not taken

448
00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:03.480
<v Speaker 2>into account in the stock assessment. The natural mortality is

449
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.319
<v Speaker 2>kept constant. But the natural mortality due to the squid

450
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:10.119
<v Speaker 2>is changing dramatically, and we see this with other fish

451
00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:12.960
<v Speaker 2>stocks as well. We see the octopus coming in the

452
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:17.880
<v Speaker 2>western English Channel, we see the cottlefish coming massively in

453
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 2>the Eastern English Channel. They eat stuff and all this

454
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:25.519
<v Speaker 2>is not taken into accounts. So natural mortality is one

455
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:28.680
<v Speaker 2>of the main problems in stock assessment, and this is

456
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:35.559
<v Speaker 2>getting worse due to climate change. So well, there's quite

457
00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:40.240
<v Speaker 2>a number of issues with information in the common fisheries policy.

458
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.319
<v Speaker 2>Well other things just told me when I talk too much.

459
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:51.279
<v Speaker 2>But for example, the technical measures messize regulation. Well, in

460
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:56.799
<v Speaker 2>every fishery where valuable fish escape, the gear escape the

461
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:01.279
<v Speaker 2>net through the measures, fisher will notice and fisher you

462
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:03.440
<v Speaker 2>don't like that. They's just just just see the money

463
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.759
<v Speaker 2>swimming out of the net. If the messize the legal

464
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:11.359
<v Speaker 2>messize is too high because the marketable fish escape, well,

465
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:14.319
<v Speaker 2>fishes will fiddle around with a mesh, they will do

466
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:18.680
<v Speaker 2>stuff so the fish cannot escape anymore. And this is

467
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:23.319
<v Speaker 2>something that you see going on throughout our region. I

468
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:26.519
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't say not in every fishery, but when small but

469
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:33.960
<v Speaker 2>when market valuable fish escape, it happens in it In

470
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:40.160
<v Speaker 2>the management system, people believe that the messiized regulation is

471
00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.920
<v Speaker 2>that fishes just follow it, but they don't. So again

472
00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:48.039
<v Speaker 2>there's a perception that control and enforcement works, but in

473
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.440
<v Speaker 2>reality it doesn't. So yeah, there's quite a lot of

474
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:53.240
<v Speaker 2>problems with information.

475
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:58.079
<v Speaker 1>It's quite fascinating when you talk about the squid and

476
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:03.599
<v Speaker 1>licking it to the suation have gotten south west of

477
00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:11.440
<v Speaker 1>the the octopus. That's really interesting. I'm sure that there's

478
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:13.599
<v Speaker 1>something going on. The only thing I was wanting to

479
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:17.039
<v Speaker 1>ask you as well, when you're with you're mentioning a

480
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.440
<v Speaker 1>claimate change is quite a bit times when you see

481
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:24.440
<v Speaker 1>about since it kicked? Then? How when what sort of

482
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:28.480
<v Speaker 1>tame skilled would you give when that started becoming under shire?

483
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:33.799
<v Speaker 2>I think it's already an issue.

484
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:39.119
<v Speaker 1>I think what, yeah, yeah, but since how since when

485
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.319
<v Speaker 1>would you would?

486
00:31:42.039 --> 00:31:46.119
<v Speaker 2>Well? I think I do this job since the nineteen nineties,

487
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:49.640
<v Speaker 2>and I have seen in the Southern North Sea, which

488
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:55.119
<v Speaker 2>is probably temperate, change is quicker in shallow areas. In

489
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.799
<v Speaker 2>the Southern North Sea is a shallow area, so I

490
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:02.039
<v Speaker 2>think we have seen the climb change consequences quite early.

491
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:05.240
<v Speaker 2>So halfway the nineteen nineties I saw the first signals

492
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.279
<v Speaker 2>when I went, that's see you because you would be

493
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>doing these experiments every year.

494
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.039
<v Speaker 1>Well. Yeah. The reason I asked that is because I

495
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.559
<v Speaker 1>remember there worst boats, especially out of out the Adia

496
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.720
<v Speaker 1>and what we call the deep water species. You know,

497
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.960
<v Speaker 1>they were in the well into the Atlantic and the

498
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:33.000
<v Speaker 1>deeper water catching things like black alabed blue ling species

499
00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:37.279
<v Speaker 1>like that, and there were scientists going out with them.

500
00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:42.759
<v Speaker 1>Now I'm going back into the eighties and just maybe

501
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:48.400
<v Speaker 1>into the nineties, and there were a wild swing in

502
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:52.839
<v Speaker 1>the temperatures in the deep water as much as six degrees,

503
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:57.440
<v Speaker 1>which in percentage terms was massive, and they were recording

504
00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:58.720
<v Speaker 1>that many years ago.

505
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:01.799
<v Speaker 2>I look at that. Yeah, there's probably a lot of

506
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:07.880
<v Speaker 2>things we actually don't know or do not take into account.

507
00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:15.119
<v Speaker 1>And how are you dealing with freshratas in Belgium in

508
00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:19.240
<v Speaker 1>what way? Just there's things you're talking about with.

509
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:25.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well we struggle, you know, we really struggle. Well,

510
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:29.359
<v Speaker 2>first of all, we started up this corporation, and I

511
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:34.960
<v Speaker 2>think all all levels from the ministry, the administration, scientists,

512
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:38.000
<v Speaker 2>the industry and also the NGOs, we are on the

513
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:42.880
<v Speaker 2>same line. We all think fisheries should be sustainable, fish

514
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:48.599
<v Speaker 2>stocks should be within the safe range, ecosystems should be healthy.

515
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:52.480
<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, we all also believe that

516
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.799
<v Speaker 2>we should have a fishery that is profitable and that

517
00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:02.599
<v Speaker 2>can focus on efficient fishing. I often, often, I had

518
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:08.239
<v Speaker 2>in the past been criticized by saying that fisheries should

519
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.519
<v Speaker 2>be efficient. But I think if you fish efficiently, then

520
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:15.440
<v Speaker 2>you use fewer resources also less fuel to catch the

521
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.559
<v Speaker 2>same amount of fish. So fishing should be efficient. We

522
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:21.760
<v Speaker 2>all believe that we are behind that idea, so we

523
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>are there's unity in Belgium to deal with fisheries, and

524
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:30.880
<v Speaker 2>we all think that we are facing problems that are

525
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:35.119
<v Speaker 2>caused by the system. So we all also think that

526
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:38.000
<v Speaker 2>we should change the system, and we are working on that.

527
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:42.599
<v Speaker 2>We are continuously trying trying to think about alternatives. That

528
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:47.199
<v Speaker 2>this is why fishers are giving us all their confidential data,

529
00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:51.800
<v Speaker 2>because they say, here we are the good data, do something,

530
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:54.360
<v Speaker 2>do something with it so we can get rid of

531
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:58.000
<v Speaker 2>this system today that doesn't work and move to something

532
00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:01.039
<v Speaker 2>that actually does work and do that in co So

533
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:03.800
<v Speaker 2>I think this is how we are dealing with fisheries

534
00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:06.960
<v Speaker 2>in Belgium. We we have problems, but we are actually

535
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:10.360
<v Speaker 2>trying to think outside the box to find a solution.

536
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:14.119
<v Speaker 2>The thing is we have to convince other parties because

537
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.280
<v Speaker 2>we are tiny. Belgium is a tiny country. We have

538
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:21.079
<v Speaker 2>sixty five kilometers of coast. Compare that to the thousands

539
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:25.079
<v Speaker 2>of kilometers. I guess in the UK we are insignificant.

540
00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:28.880
<v Speaker 2>But I do think that the small Belgians have some

541
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:33.360
<v Speaker 2>good ideas worth spreading, so we are looking for support.

542
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:38.480
<v Speaker 2>We are looking for other parties to actually help us

543
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:43.599
<v Speaker 2>question the presence system and also work on an alternative.

544
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:46.800
<v Speaker 2>We have some ideas, but it's not worked out in detail.

545
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:49.840
<v Speaker 2>We cannot do it by ourselves as well, so we

546
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:54.920
<v Speaker 2>are trying to copy with our own problems, but also

547
00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:59.679
<v Speaker 2>trying to set up cooperation from the countries around us.

548
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:06.480
<v Speaker 1>And can you see a better system could arise from it?

549
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:12.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, we started this idea, I think a number of

550
00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:17.679
<v Speaker 2>years ago, thinking but acknowledging there's an issue and trying

551
00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:22.559
<v Speaker 2>to find solutions. And I think we have a pretty

552
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:27.079
<v Speaker 2>good idea of what could work. And well, the first

553
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:29.199
<v Speaker 2>thing is the data collection that I think it all

554
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:34.239
<v Speaker 2>starts with observing what are the consequences of fishing on

555
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:37.039
<v Speaker 2>the fish stocks and on the ecosystems. In order to

556
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.519
<v Speaker 2>do that, you need good information, you need good data.

557
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:44.440
<v Speaker 2>So and the fishers agree with that, we want to

558
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:49.400
<v Speaker 2>put cameras on board for a full catch analysis. So

559
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:54.360
<v Speaker 2>many fishermen are opposed to the idea to have cameras

560
00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:57.559
<v Speaker 2>on board. I don't need cameras to see what fishers

561
00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:59.840
<v Speaker 2>are doing. I just want to know the catch. That's

562
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.800
<v Speaker 2>so in Belgium we put the camera above the conveyor

563
00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:07.320
<v Speaker 2>belt and all the fish that passes are recorded. It's

564
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:10.480
<v Speaker 2>a technology in development and so it doesn't work full yet.

565
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:13.119
<v Speaker 2>But the idea is that if we do that, we

566
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:17.480
<v Speaker 2>can calculate the mortality caused by each individual fishing vessel.

567
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:19.960
<v Speaker 2>What is the impact of that vessel during that year

568
00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:25.480
<v Speaker 2>on the fish stocks. Now, if you know that and

569
00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:30.840
<v Speaker 2>you can still of course, you still need quota and

570
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:35.480
<v Speaker 2>you can, if necessary, limit fishing vessels with simple management

571
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:38.440
<v Speaker 2>measures like for example, days at sea. This is the

572
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.280
<v Speaker 2>whole management system. You have the observation, you have the

573
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.599
<v Speaker 2>quota to limit, and you have the days at sea

574
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:52.000
<v Speaker 2>to get involved or to steer the fisheries in the

575
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:55.920
<v Speaker 2>right direction. If you have that, you don't need anything else.

576
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:58.719
<v Speaker 2>And the nice thing about that is you don't need

577
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:02.239
<v Speaker 2>technical measures, don't need mes size, You don't need to

578
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:06.000
<v Speaker 2>impose square mesh panels because fishers will use them themselves

579
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.840
<v Speaker 2>and will design them according to their own needs and

580
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:14.360
<v Speaker 2>their own situation. You don't need administration, you don't need

581
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:18.440
<v Speaker 2>all these aspections that see. So imagine the simplicity and

582
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:23.800
<v Speaker 2>the reduction in costs. If you move towards that system,

583
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:30.159
<v Speaker 2>then all the complaints about administrative burden, complexity of regulations,

584
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:34.159
<v Speaker 2>controls and so on, all these things just disappear and

585
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.639
<v Speaker 2>you get a situation where you can actually have trust

586
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:41.440
<v Speaker 2>between all these parties and real cooperation. So the data

587
00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:47.559
<v Speaker 2>are given without control and enforcement. Fishers say, okay, here

588
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.920
<v Speaker 2>are by data. You can know everything I can, but

589
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.079
<v Speaker 2>for the rest, let me do my thing. I want

590
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:56.679
<v Speaker 2>to focus on fishing. I want to follow the fish

591
00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:00.199
<v Speaker 2>through the seasons and go fish them where they are

592
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:03.400
<v Speaker 2>with the fishing gear I think is most suitable to

593
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:06.199
<v Speaker 2>do that. And if I want to fish during the

594
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:09.159
<v Speaker 2>daytime with this fishing gear and during the nighttime with

595
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.760
<v Speaker 2>another fishing gear which is not allowed today, just let

596
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.960
<v Speaker 2>them do that. Give them all the freedom to conductor fishery,

597
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:20.920
<v Speaker 2>but be fully open in your catches. So this is

598
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.440
<v Speaker 2>let's say, in a nutshell, what we want to do.

599
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:31.559
<v Speaker 1>That sounds very impressive, and do you think it's realistic.

600
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I think it's very realistic because we are actually already

601
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.480
<v Speaker 2>doing it. I mean, the foundation collecting the data. We

602
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:45.159
<v Speaker 2>are more or less ready except for the camera and

603
00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:49.079
<v Speaker 2>the analysis of the video footage. There's still work there,

604
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.719
<v Speaker 2>but already most of the species be recognized. We can

605
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.760
<v Speaker 2>measure their length, We even can extra can get extra

606
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:58.880
<v Speaker 2>affirmation on the condition of the fishing. So the technology

607
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:02.559
<v Speaker 2>is there we can do. The main thing now is

608
00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:06.599
<v Speaker 2>that the management system has to change to give the

609
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:10.199
<v Speaker 2>fisher the freedom, because what is the incentive of the

610
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 2>fisher to give all his data? Because this is a

611
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:17.559
<v Speaker 2>first criticism we get fishers will never give all their data. No,

612
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:20.000
<v Speaker 2>but why don't they give their data because you have

613
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:26.519
<v Speaker 2>a very restrictive control and enforcement regime. But if you

614
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:30.360
<v Speaker 2>change that system where you say we don't need that,

615
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:34.840
<v Speaker 2>we don't need all these regulations, we only need the data,

616
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:39.360
<v Speaker 2>then the incentive of the fissure is the freedom of fisher,

617
00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:45.159
<v Speaker 2>free choice of gear, free choice of operation, within of course,

618
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.719
<v Speaker 2>the bigger boundaries of sustainability. There are habitats you have

619
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.639
<v Speaker 2>to protect from fishing. There are areas that are vulnerable,

620
00:40:53.639 --> 00:40:56.119
<v Speaker 2>there are species that are vulnerable, so you need this

621
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:01.119
<v Speaker 2>kind of frame of basic protection. But within that frame,

622
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:03.199
<v Speaker 2>for me, it's full freedom.

623
00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:06.599
<v Speaker 1>It's impressive what you say there hands because it remains

624
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:10.320
<v Speaker 1>me of something that Jack Robertson said when they were

625
00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:14.880
<v Speaker 1>talking and discussions without size of mesh on the square

626
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:18.760
<v Speaker 1>panels and things, and one of his colleagues sent them

627
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:23.719
<v Speaker 1>will or from above. It was thrown upon because it

628
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:28.320
<v Speaker 1>was what are the pressures cheat and do something in deathland?

629
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:29.760
<v Speaker 1>So there was no trust.

630
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:34.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's the problem when you work in a

631
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:39.079
<v Speaker 2>system based on control and enforcement. Well, you can enforce,

632
00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:42.599
<v Speaker 2>you try to, you can regulate and say, well, in

633
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>this kind of Scottish cold fishery, you have to use

634
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:50.519
<v Speaker 2>this square mesh panel to allow haddock and whiting to escape,

635
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:55.159
<v Speaker 2>and that panel has to be fifty messions on twenty

636
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:57.599
<v Speaker 2>measures of that mesh size in that material and that

637
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.000
<v Speaker 2>twine thickness, and you have to put it so many

638
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:02.920
<v Speaker 2>from the content. I mean, this is how these things

639
00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:07.800
<v Speaker 2>get regulated. It's a very proscriptive, prescriptive. Now, the problem

640
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:11.880
<v Speaker 2>is that for the fishing vessel where the experiments went on,

641
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.360
<v Speaker 2>this will probably work. But if you go on another

642
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:19.000
<v Speaker 2>vessel in another season with a slightly different gear design,

643
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.320
<v Speaker 2>you will probably have to put your square mesh paddle

644
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:24.079
<v Speaker 2>a little more in front or with the board in

645
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.440
<v Speaker 2>the back, or make it bigger or smaller. I mean,

646
00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:30.239
<v Speaker 2>fishers have to adapt these things to their own situation.

647
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:33.760
<v Speaker 2>But if your regulation says this is how it has

648
00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:36.320
<v Speaker 2>to be, where in many cases it just won't work.

649
00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:38.760
<v Speaker 2>So you have to give the fisher the freedom and

650
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:43.119
<v Speaker 2>judge the fisher on the outcome on his catch. If

651
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:45.800
<v Speaker 2>you have a fisher using a square mesh panel and

652
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:48.320
<v Speaker 2>you have a huge amount of haddock and writing bike

653
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:52.440
<v Speaker 2>or bycatch that you have to discard, well, it's probably

654
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.960
<v Speaker 2>because the square mesh panel is not in the right position.

655
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:57.559
<v Speaker 2>So you look at the catch and you let the

656
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:01.199
<v Speaker 2>fisher adjust his fishing gear so that the whiting and

657
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:04.000
<v Speaker 2>they had to kind of escape, not the other way around.

658
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:10.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, And is there in the EU? Just is

659
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:11.719
<v Speaker 1>there a desert see?

660
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:12.519
<v Speaker 2>Well?

661
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Another, I'm sure there's a quota system. Is there desert?

662
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:21.079
<v Speaker 2>See? Yes? In the EU, we have every single possible

663
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:25.599
<v Speaker 2>way of regulating. Yeah, we have days at sea, we

664
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:29.599
<v Speaker 2>have area restrictions, we have real time closures, we have

665
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:33.800
<v Speaker 2>technical measures of all kinds, we have quota, we have

666
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:38.559
<v Speaker 2>a landing obligation, we have all these things all together. Yeah.

667
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:43.679
<v Speaker 1>Crazy, Now you may relate to this from what you're saying.

668
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:46.800
<v Speaker 1>There hands a conversation had we have a friend of

669
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.119
<v Speaker 1>mine who was landing nor one of our rural ports

670
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:54.079
<v Speaker 1>scrubs that scapper is kept an owner of the board.

671
00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:58.639
<v Speaker 1>And he was on the pier with me the letter

672
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:02.679
<v Speaker 1>in his hand and this is missus, this is this

673
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:06.119
<v Speaker 1>is a letter of all my variations what I have

674
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:13.599
<v Speaker 1>to do and adhered and policymakers from civil servants. And

675
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:19.360
<v Speaker 1>this comment to me Hans was missus. I can see

676
00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.039
<v Speaker 1>the person that wrote this letter that has never been

677
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:24.039
<v Speaker 1>on a fashion bod in his life.

678
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:26.519
<v Speaker 2>And that's a problem. I mean, I have a lot

679
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:29.760
<v Speaker 2>of respect for the people in the European Commission. I

680
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:32.320
<v Speaker 2>mean I've been working together with the people for thirty

681
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.320
<v Speaker 2>five years. They are hard working people. They want to

682
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:38.039
<v Speaker 2>do the right thing though discussion about it, but they

683
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:44.360
<v Speaker 2>miss that that feeling of the reality. And this is

684
00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:48.639
<v Speaker 2>so necessary. This is why stakeholder involvement and this is

685
00:44:48.679 --> 00:44:51.239
<v Speaker 2>one of the big buzzwords of the last ten fifteen years,

686
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:54.880
<v Speaker 2>stakeholder involvement, and the European Commission has really tried to

687
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:58.360
<v Speaker 2>organize that stakeholder involvement. But what do you see that

688
00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:06.760
<v Speaker 2>is both often meetings between managers, scientists and the representatives

689
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:11.079
<v Speaker 2>of the fishing industry, which are also people who are

690
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.320
<v Speaker 2>doing a good job, but most of them don't go

691
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:18.960
<v Speaker 2>at sea anymore or just know their own special situation

692
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:25.039
<v Speaker 2>when they were fishers themselves, and the stakeholder involvement is

693
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:29.519
<v Speaker 2>quite superficial. I think we need much more cooperation with

694
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:34.199
<v Speaker 2>the actual fishers, people who go at sea, and I

695
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:37.079
<v Speaker 2>think you cannot do that at the level we are

696
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:40.679
<v Speaker 2>doing that now, I mean the level meetings in Brussels.

697
00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Now you have to go local. You have to have

698
00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:50.840
<v Speaker 2>this let's say, more dispersed stakeholder informment spread over the

699
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:55.119
<v Speaker 2>area where the local people can actually talk about their

700
00:45:55.159 --> 00:45:58.639
<v Speaker 2>own specific situation. And you need a management system that's

701
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:05.280
<v Speaker 2>very flexible to be adjustable to local situations. And then

702
00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:09.239
<v Speaker 2>because this is all very difficult to control and enforce,

703
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:12.400
<v Speaker 2>you get rid of control and enforcement and you change

704
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:16.079
<v Speaker 2>a system that is too so it is based on

705
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:20.599
<v Speaker 2>cooperation and openness and trust. So it's it's a real

706
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:25.440
<v Speaker 2>complete shift in how we address fisheries.

707
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:32.679
<v Speaker 1>Another comment that they have been widely used here with

708
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:38.320
<v Speaker 1>what the word you used. You mentioned just a last

709
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:45.559
<v Speaker 1>said about stakeholders, and it's a term used here. There's

710
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:50.639
<v Speaker 1>a vast difference between stakeholders and openion holders.

711
00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:53.559
<v Speaker 2>And what's the last work here where you use.

712
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:59.480
<v Speaker 1>There's a massive difference between stakeholders and opinion holders.

713
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:04.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, opinion holders yet I didn't understand the word yet,

714
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.840
<v Speaker 2>but okay, I get it now. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

715
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.519
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't There is indeed a big, big difference. And

716
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:18.519
<v Speaker 2>of course it's not easy to organize this, but I

717
00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:20.360
<v Speaker 2>think it's it's necessary.

718
00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:27.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and hope. There's a big question. Now, how can

719
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:32.159
<v Speaker 1>we get or obviously you how can you get rid

720
00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:37.519
<v Speaker 1>of the administration burden under the complex regulations?

721
00:47:38.679 --> 00:47:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well by changing the system towards what they call

722
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:47.239
<v Speaker 2>an output control. So you look at the output of

723
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:50.519
<v Speaker 2>the system, and the output is the catch. So you

724
00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:57.159
<v Speaker 2>look at the catch of all the fishing vessels. You

725
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.360
<v Speaker 2>have to be able to record what's in the catch.

726
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:03.320
<v Speaker 2>You can do do that for example with the camera

727
00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:08.320
<v Speaker 2>on board. And once you have this, as I explained before,

728
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:12.679
<v Speaker 2>you have the system of catch analysis, you have the

729
00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:17.320
<v Speaker 2>quota simply regulations days at see, and all the rest

730
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:19.800
<v Speaker 2>of the administration can go. And the thing is that

731
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:25.519
<v Speaker 2>the data collection that we are uh that we have developed,

732
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:32.000
<v Speaker 2>which is this automated automatic link with the fishing vest

733
00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.119
<v Speaker 2>So all the instruments on board that are interesting produced

734
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:38.519
<v Speaker 2>data and this data goes straight through the cloud to

735
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:46.199
<v Speaker 2>our database. So once you have that system, it's fully automated.

736
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:51.159
<v Speaker 2>So one advantage is that there's no humans involved, so

737
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:56.239
<v Speaker 2>no errors, no fraud or less fraud because there's always

738
00:48:56.280 --> 00:49:02.400
<v Speaker 2>possibility for fraud, but especially there no administration necessary, so

739
00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:05.599
<v Speaker 2>the skipper doesn't even have to fill out a look book.

740
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:10.079
<v Speaker 2>It's all automatic, so the fisher can actually concentrate on

741
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:13.360
<v Speaker 2>this fishing. So if you go to that system, all

742
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:18.039
<v Speaker 2>administration and all complexity of regulations are how you called it,

743
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:23.159
<v Speaker 2>redundant or not needed, just not needed.

744
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:28.760
<v Speaker 1>It's forward back in and we get would you say

745
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:32.400
<v Speaker 1>where you would be in a which the stige will

746
00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:36.000
<v Speaker 1>observe everything and regulate less.

747
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:43.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the thing, and regulate yeah yeah, less is

748
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:44.599
<v Speaker 2>an understatement.

749
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:51.000
<v Speaker 1>How could an alternative management or government that then look

750
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:52.800
<v Speaker 1>like mm hmm.

751
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think first of all, you have the central

752
00:49:58.039 --> 00:50:02.599
<v Speaker 2>managers in the EU. I'm talking about EU, so of

753
00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:06.480
<v Speaker 2>course they have to have some handle over what's going

754
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:08.920
<v Speaker 2>on AT's see. So I think in the European Parliament

755
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.480
<v Speaker 2>they have to set the boundaries. What do we mean

756
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:16.519
<v Speaker 2>with sustainability, what do we mean with the healthy ecosystem

757
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:22.559
<v Speaker 2>and intact habitats and they have to define how that

758
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.679
<v Speaker 2>should look like. This is something that society has to

759
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:30.199
<v Speaker 2>decide upon how much damage do we accept for fisheries

760
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:33.559
<v Speaker 2>to do so that's done at the higher political level.

761
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:40.440
<v Speaker 2>That's there. Then your European Commission should not deal with micromanagement.

762
00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:45.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean they should follow up how the whole ecosystem

763
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:49.000
<v Speaker 2>and fish stocks are evolving through time, and they have

764
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:52.079
<v Speaker 2>to check with what the politicians in the European Parliament

765
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:54.760
<v Speaker 2>have to have decided. They have to see based on

766
00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:58.639
<v Speaker 2>reliable information, how the fishtocks are evolving and is this

767
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:02.000
<v Speaker 2>actually what we have decided as a society how it

768
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:07.519
<v Speaker 2>should be. If that's correct, well just let them do so.

769
00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:12.400
<v Speaker 2>You as Europein Commission has to measure the outcome, has

770
00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:15.199
<v Speaker 2>to measure the status of the fish stocks and the

771
00:51:15.199 --> 00:51:19.000
<v Speaker 2>status of the ecosystem. If that's fine, just let them go.

772
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:23.400
<v Speaker 2>If the Commission sees that something's going wrong, that there's

773
00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:27.079
<v Speaker 2>in some area over fishing or some fish stocks in problem,

774
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:30.719
<v Speaker 2>or to match damage to the ecosystem, well they have

775
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:37.079
<v Speaker 2>to be able to, let's say, bring some changes and

776
00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:41.480
<v Speaker 2>bring back the fishery within the boundaries of sustainability. But

777
00:51:41.599 --> 00:51:45.239
<v Speaker 2>they have to do that with means that are easy

778
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:48.480
<v Speaker 2>to implement. For example, today we have a lot of

779
00:51:48.519 --> 00:51:52.760
<v Speaker 2>regulations which are almost impossible to control. For example, the

780
00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:57.000
<v Speaker 2>landing obligation. Forget it, there's no compliance for the moment,

781
00:51:57.079 --> 00:52:00.320
<v Speaker 2>not possible to control. So if you can't control all it,

782
00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:04.760
<v Speaker 2>don't do it. Don't make yourself ridiculous, I'm sorry. Do

783
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:07.559
<v Speaker 2>it with days at sea for example, So if the

784
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Commision see is that fishing fleets are not behaving well,

785
00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:15.079
<v Speaker 2>reduce their days at sea. Very simple. Every vessel that

786
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:18.840
<v Speaker 2>goes out and in a fishing harbor is recorded. So

787
00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:22.800
<v Speaker 2>it's the most easy way to control the fishery and

788
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:26.719
<v Speaker 2>very efficient. So of course the European Commission has to

789
00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:29.920
<v Speaker 2>have some means to control that, and that's the way

790
00:52:29.960 --> 00:52:34.159
<v Speaker 2>they can do that. Once you have that, you don't

791
00:52:34.159 --> 00:52:37.360
<v Speaker 2>need technical measures, you don't need expections at sea, you

792
00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:40.119
<v Speaker 2>don't need minimum landing sizes, you don't need a landing

793
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:46.480
<v Speaker 2>obligation and so on. Then finally fishers can concentrate on

794
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:50.880
<v Speaker 2>what they are good at, and that's fishing. Finding the

795
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:55.159
<v Speaker 2>higher fish concentrations and much more than in the past.

796
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Avoid what you don't want, to avoid a small fish

797
00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:05.199
<v Speaker 2>and avoid the protected species, and of course record their catches.

798
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:09.280
<v Speaker 2>That's the foundation of the whole thing. And then the

799
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:13.199
<v Speaker 2>scientists will finally get good data and they will develop

800
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:17.400
<v Speaker 2>apps based on that good information to help the fishers

801
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:20.920
<v Speaker 2>with all. If you have all these catches of all

802
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:25.239
<v Speaker 2>these vessels in real time, you can automatic You can

803
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:31.199
<v Speaker 2>build algorithms and models who give you distribution maps which

804
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:34.239
<v Speaker 2>are updated every day with the real time catch information

805
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.320
<v Speaker 2>you get from the whole fleet. So with these distribution

806
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:42.039
<v Speaker 2>maps maps, the fishes can actually plan their fishery in

807
00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.800
<v Speaker 2>a much better way than they used to. They have

808
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:47.599
<v Speaker 2>this information on where's the fish I want and where's

809
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:49.519
<v Speaker 2>the fish I don't want, and where are the habitats

810
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:53.519
<v Speaker 2>that are vulnerable. If you have this information, you have

811
00:53:53.679 --> 00:53:59.079
<v Speaker 2>what you need for sustainable fishing. So the scientists will

812
00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:03.760
<v Speaker 2>then also based on this good data, produce meta data,

813
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.440
<v Speaker 2>let's say, more general information on the state of the

814
00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:10.360
<v Speaker 2>fish stocks and the state of the ecosystem that they

815
00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:14.079
<v Speaker 2>can report to European Commission. So the European Commission we

816
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:20.239
<v Speaker 2>get a true estimation of the status of the ecosystem

817
00:54:20.599 --> 00:54:23.679
<v Speaker 2>and the fish stocks, and with that much more correct

818
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:28.480
<v Speaker 2>information they will be able to manage much better. And

819
00:54:28.519 --> 00:54:31.320
<v Speaker 2>then there finally will be a good relationship with the

820
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:34.599
<v Speaker 2>scientists and the fishers, and this will become a cooperation

821
00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:37.400
<v Speaker 2>that is very valuable. So that I think that that's

822
00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:42.320
<v Speaker 2>in a nutshell, the system, how we think it can work.

823
00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Of course, should you believe me, well not, you should

824
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:50.840
<v Speaker 2>not believe me. And do I believe myself, well, I

825
00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:54.480
<v Speaker 2>do have doubts. I'm not sure if all this will work.

826
00:54:54.840 --> 00:54:58.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure actually how all this should work. I

827
00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:01.119
<v Speaker 2>mean in terms of models and and algorithms and so

828
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:05.719
<v Speaker 2>these are complex things. But we are quite confident that

829
00:55:05.840 --> 00:55:09.840
<v Speaker 2>we have reached in Belgium now a level that is

830
00:55:10.039 --> 00:55:12.679
<v Speaker 2>much better than we see in our neighboring countries, a

831
00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:16.159
<v Speaker 2>level of data collection and cooperation. So we do believe

832
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:20.199
<v Speaker 2>that this is this way forward has a lot of potential.

833
00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Now the thing is, before I can convince you, I

834
00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:28.000
<v Speaker 2>will have to show you. Now, before I have to

835
00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:30.760
<v Speaker 2>I can show you, I will be able. I should

836
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:34.280
<v Speaker 2>be able to do an experiment. So that experiment could be,

837
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:38.719
<v Speaker 2>for example, take the North Sea and let's say, okay,

838
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:43.079
<v Speaker 2>for that North Sea. We will put the common Fisheries

839
00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:47.320
<v Speaker 2>policy completely aside and replace it with something completely new,

840
00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and let that for the next decade be an experiment

841
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:54.639
<v Speaker 2>in the North Sea. So I can demonstrate you that

842
00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:58.840
<v Speaker 2>it works or it fails, and you can say, well,

843
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.039
<v Speaker 2>and that's the this ison my get. Well, if it fails,

844
00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:06.360
<v Speaker 2>it's a drama. No, it's a real drama. Well, I

845
00:56:06.400 --> 00:56:11.480
<v Speaker 2>would say the system today as it is working, is failing.

846
00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:14.840
<v Speaker 2>It is failing if you look at all the problems

847
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.480
<v Speaker 2>we have in fisheries, and if you look at how

848
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:21.199
<v Speaker 2>desperate many fishers are. I mean a fishing industry, fishers

849
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:25.760
<v Speaker 2>who during the last centuries have overcome so many crises.

850
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:30.320
<v Speaker 2>These are very dynamic people and very resilient people who

851
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:33.800
<v Speaker 2>are today saying, well, if I get the opportunity, I

852
00:56:33.880 --> 00:56:36.239
<v Speaker 2>get out of the business. It's all too much for me.

853
00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:40.880
<v Speaker 2>I just can't fish anymore. So let me do the experiment,

854
00:56:41.239 --> 00:56:43.519
<v Speaker 2>because what we see today is not pretty.

855
00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:49.159
<v Speaker 1>You knows, when you keep to the point where he says, okay,

856
00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:54.360
<v Speaker 1>well it work. No, you know you were saying that, yeah,

857
00:56:55.159 --> 00:56:58.519
<v Speaker 1>that you don't know. But what came to my main

858
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:02.000
<v Speaker 1>when you said there's an old saying that you hear

859
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:05.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot. Where there's a will, there's a way.

860
00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:10.519
<v Speaker 2>M hm. True, And I think.

861
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:14.239
<v Speaker 1>It's a world to drive it. What would be.

862
00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:19.280
<v Speaker 2>If you have a group of people who really see

863
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.239
<v Speaker 2>what's going on today and say we need to go

864
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:26.679
<v Speaker 2>to a better system, and you see the potential of

865
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:29.400
<v Speaker 2>the data we have, and you see the potential of

866
00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:34.280
<v Speaker 2>the cooperation. Well, I think if you have people who

867
00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:38.719
<v Speaker 2>believe in it, I think we can reach it. I mean,

868
00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:42.840
<v Speaker 2>let me give an example. It's a very different world,

869
00:57:43.480 --> 00:57:47.239
<v Speaker 2>but the war in Ukraine. I mean four years ago,

870
00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:50.559
<v Speaker 2>everybody thought that's the end of Ukraine. And this has

871
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:53.519
<v Speaker 2>been so for a few years now. The last six

872
00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:57.639
<v Speaker 2>months you see that this drone technology has developed so

873
00:57:58.280 --> 00:58:02.000
<v Speaker 2>much that Ukraine is actually on the winning hand. Nobody

874
00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:06.079
<v Speaker 2>would have believed it, Nobody would have given the Ukrainians

875
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:09.880
<v Speaker 2>a chance a few years ago. But the Ukrainians were

876
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:14.079
<v Speaker 2>forced and pushed just for the sheer survival to come

877
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:19.599
<v Speaker 2>up with alternative ways of waging war, and they developed

878
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:23.440
<v Speaker 2>the technology so far that this underdog is now on top.

879
00:58:24.039 --> 00:58:26.719
<v Speaker 2>I mean, as you say, where there's a will, there's

880
00:58:26.760 --> 00:58:30.039
<v Speaker 2>a way, and I think it's the same here. I

881
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:34.360
<v Speaker 2>think if you look at the basics in our new

882
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:38.159
<v Speaker 2>approach and you look at the value in that I

883
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:41.760
<v Speaker 2>mean good data, cooperation, trust, and so whether they have

884
00:58:41.880 --> 00:58:45.239
<v Speaker 2>these things which are lacking today. If you have these things,

885
00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:47.760
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a very good chance that we can

886
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:50.440
<v Speaker 2>come to a much better system than we have today.

887
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:57.840
<v Speaker 1>And could use almost the pressure's rule change and every

888
00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:02.000
<v Speaker 1>vessel becomes a scient thick observation platform.

889
00:59:02.280 --> 00:59:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's the thing. It's an automatic system. That's

890
00:59:08.840 --> 00:59:12.760
<v Speaker 2>the good thing. You can collect the information from the

891
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:16.920
<v Speaker 2>fisheries catch, which is valuable for the fisheries, but which

892
00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:20.480
<v Speaker 2>is also valuable for other parties who are dealing with

893
00:59:20.719 --> 00:59:23.960
<v Speaker 2>the marine ecosystem, who are dealing with climate change, who

894
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:28.320
<v Speaker 2>are dealing with weather. There's a lot of information that

895
00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:31.760
<v Speaker 2>you can collect on a fishing vessel that is valuable

896
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:35.559
<v Speaker 2>for many parties. For example, you can put a temperate

897
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.719
<v Speaker 2>sensor temperature sensor on a troll, which means that every

898
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:43.440
<v Speaker 2>hole the temperature sensor goes from the top to the bottom,

899
00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:46.639
<v Speaker 2>so you get this temperature profile, which seems to be

900
00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:53.440
<v Speaker 2>very interesting for climate scientists and weather scientists. If you

901
00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:56.039
<v Speaker 2>do that on board of if you do that in

902
00:59:56.079 --> 00:59:58.320
<v Speaker 2>a fishing fleet. You have all these different tune it's

903
00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:00.559
<v Speaker 2>fishing in all these different places, and you get all

904
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:04.360
<v Speaker 2>these temperate temperature profiles, which today you almost don't have

905
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:08.320
<v Speaker 2>just on a few fixed points you have then, so

906
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:12.480
<v Speaker 2>this is very valuable. We are also, for example, developing

907
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:16.599
<v Speaker 2>a DNA sampler, so EDNA, I don't know if you

908
01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:20.320
<v Speaker 2>know it, environmental DNA. Every fish that swims in the

909
01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:23.280
<v Speaker 2>sea is behind a little bit of DNA. If you

910
01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:28.599
<v Speaker 2>take a liter or a gallon of seawater, there's a

911
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:31.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of DNA in there. If you extract the DNA,

912
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:35.199
<v Speaker 2>you can determine the species that have been swimming around.

913
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:37.559
<v Speaker 2>So you based on that DNA in the water, you

914
01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:41.800
<v Speaker 2>get an impression of the numbers of fish pieces around

915
01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:45.440
<v Speaker 2>and also some indication on the quantity of fish. So

916
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:49.079
<v Speaker 2>this EDNA sample is already operational on board of one

917
01:00:49.119 --> 01:00:53.039
<v Speaker 2>of our fishing vessels, gives us new information that is

918
01:00:53.079 --> 01:00:56.639
<v Speaker 2>today not available, but that we can just fit into

919
01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:00.440
<v Speaker 2>that data collection system on board of the fishing vessel,

920
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:04.199
<v Speaker 2>again in an automated way. So you can actually make

921
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:08.639
<v Speaker 2>of a fishing vessel a data collection platform that is

922
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:10.639
<v Speaker 2>valuable for many parties.

923
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:15.880
<v Speaker 1>And what role would that play investries management.

924
01:01:18.760 --> 01:01:23.920
<v Speaker 2>I think the main thing is that fisheries managers can

925
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:29.960
<v Speaker 2>get a much better perception of the reality with that.

926
01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:37.719
<v Speaker 2>I think these are reliable data, high resolution data, high

927
01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:41.760
<v Speaker 2>quality and real time compared to what we have today

928
01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:46.239
<v Speaker 2>is low resolution, low quality, a very slow I mean

929
01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:49.440
<v Speaker 2>it takes months before lockbook data get in our database

930
01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:54.480
<v Speaker 2>with the changes feel So for managers, I think it's

931
01:01:54.519 --> 01:01:58.199
<v Speaker 2>mainly about reliable information on the state of the fish

932
01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:02.119
<v Speaker 2>stocks and of the ecosystem.

933
01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:11.760
<v Speaker 1>Why specially is mortality the only metric that really matters.

934
01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:14.039
<v Speaker 2>Because what you need to know to manage fish stocks

935
01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:18.920
<v Speaker 2>is how quickly they grow and how quickly they die

936
01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:23.239
<v Speaker 2>or how many die. Once you know, once you have

937
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:29.880
<v Speaker 2>the catches, and you know what the fishing mortality is,

938
01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:34.599
<v Speaker 2>that it's induced by the fishing fleet, you know what

939
01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:37.440
<v Speaker 2>effect it will have on the fish stock. And by

940
01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:42.519
<v Speaker 2>collecting this catch information of all these fishing vessels over

941
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:45.800
<v Speaker 2>a wide area, you also get a pretty good idea

942
01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:50.000
<v Speaker 2>on natural mortality. So you get a very good information

943
01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:54.079
<v Speaker 2>on fishing mortality by each individual fishing vessel, and by

944
01:02:54.119 --> 01:02:56.880
<v Speaker 2>combining all these data you get a pretty good idea

945
01:02:56.880 --> 01:03:03.159
<v Speaker 2>on natural mortality. So critical factor in stock assessment, natural

946
01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:07.559
<v Speaker 2>mortality or mortality in general. You will now finally have

947
01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:13.000
<v Speaker 2>much more accurate information. And if you have that, you

948
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:15.440
<v Speaker 2>have enough to follow up the fish stocks and you

949
01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:19.199
<v Speaker 2>have enough to manage because if you will see how

950
01:03:19.239 --> 01:03:22.559
<v Speaker 2>this changes through time, and if it goes in the

951
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:25.880
<v Speaker 2>wrong direction, well, as a manager you can say, well,

952
01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:29.239
<v Speaker 2>let's use this simple means days at sea to limit

953
01:03:29.360 --> 01:03:30.320
<v Speaker 2>where it's necessary.

954
01:03:33.039 --> 01:03:37.280
<v Speaker 1>I have to say, hands that I admire and appreciate

955
01:03:38.239 --> 01:03:43.960
<v Speaker 1>the passion you have for it. But that's what you

956
01:03:44.039 --> 01:03:51.360
<v Speaker 1>mentioned and the system you're talking about, and I believe

957
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:55.000
<v Speaker 1>that it can work. It comes out a cross load

958
01:03:55.079 --> 01:03:56.760
<v Speaker 1>and clear respect.

959
01:03:56.320 --> 01:04:00.239
<v Speaker 2>You for that. Thank you very much, Thank you very

960
01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:04.119
<v Speaker 2>much for the appreciation. I have to say, I'm very

961
01:04:04.159 --> 01:04:08.840
<v Speaker 2>happy I can bring my story here. I really hope

962
01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:14.119
<v Speaker 2>that we can do something together. I mean you and

963
01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:18.679
<v Speaker 2>me this podcast, but I mean the British and Europeans.

964
01:04:19.119 --> 01:04:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I think, well, the sea separates us, but I think

965
01:04:21.920 --> 01:04:26.159
<v Speaker 2>we belong together. And I think when it comes to

966
01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:31.360
<v Speaker 2>managing fisheries and anything that happens in the sea, it

967
01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:34.239
<v Speaker 2>makes much more sense to do it together than to

968
01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:37.920
<v Speaker 2>draw this imaginary line halfway in the North Sea that.

969
01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:43.360
<v Speaker 1>Separates us at hunt when you say that I couldn't.

970
01:04:43.679 --> 01:04:46.239
<v Speaker 1>You don't get me wrong. I'm not pulling yep on that.

971
01:04:47.480 --> 01:04:49.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to give you the measure that I agree

972
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:54.239
<v Speaker 1>with you because we've already had a chat about how

973
01:04:54.800 --> 01:05:01.719
<v Speaker 1>you remember Jack Roberts and obviously you've worked together, you know,

974
01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:06.599
<v Speaker 1>So there's nobodriers there. I was talking to one of

975
01:05:06.639 --> 01:05:11.159
<v Speaker 1>our really successful farst young fisherman and there's not too

976
01:05:11.239 --> 01:05:16.480
<v Speaker 1>many unfortunately around now, but he was fishing down in

977
01:05:16.519 --> 01:05:19.880
<v Speaker 1>the Southern north Sea and he was talking about how

978
01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:24.440
<v Speaker 1>well he got on with some of the dutch Men

979
01:05:24.639 --> 01:05:28.920
<v Speaker 1>and probably Belgiums. He was in the Southern north Sea

980
01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:31.719
<v Speaker 1>and he says he was getting on really well with

981
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:38.119
<v Speaker 1>them and they were honest with their patch theaters and

982
01:05:38.599 --> 01:05:41.800
<v Speaker 1>things like that. So can we not see what Goodoni

983
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:50.199
<v Speaker 1>or Siatists talk together, pressures talk together. That's when it finished,

984
01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:51.760
<v Speaker 1>that's when it starts and ends.

985
01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:56.320
<v Speaker 2>That's true. Actually I call it in my when I

986
01:05:56.320 --> 01:06:00.320
<v Speaker 2>gave a presentation, I call it social innovation. But this

987
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:03.679
<v Speaker 2>is just expensive words of people just talking to each other.

988
01:06:04.119 --> 01:06:07.039
<v Speaker 2>There's so much value in talking to each other. Let

989
01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:11.159
<v Speaker 2>me give you an Examplengos the green people that say,

990
01:06:11.719 --> 01:06:15.400
<v Speaker 2>twenty years ago it was impossible to have one of

991
01:06:15.440 --> 01:06:19.960
<v Speaker 2>the fisher's representatives and people of the NGOs together at

992
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:23.280
<v Speaker 2>one table. But then fifteen years ago we started with

993
01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:27.719
<v Speaker 2>this cooperation and we involved the NGOs, and in the

994
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:31.760
<v Speaker 2>beginning it was a bit awkward when these people started talking,

995
01:06:31.880 --> 01:06:37.079
<v Speaker 2>but very quickly they started exchanging information and talking about

996
01:06:37.079 --> 01:06:41.159
<v Speaker 2>their problems from both sides, and after very short time,

997
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:44.719
<v Speaker 2>the people of the NGOs and the fishers, they just

998
01:06:44.760 --> 01:06:48.000
<v Speaker 2>get along very well. So Pier old.

999
01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:55.239
<v Speaker 1>People, Yeah, yeah, and it can stock assessment become real Dame.

1000
01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:01.119
<v Speaker 2>I definitely think it can, and not only it can,

1001
01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:05.800
<v Speaker 2>but I think it should. I mean as soon as

1002
01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:10.960
<v Speaker 2>you have cameras on board, and this technology is underdevelopment,

1003
01:07:11.480 --> 01:07:14.480
<v Speaker 2>but it's already quite far. When you have cameras on

1004
01:07:14.519 --> 01:07:18.639
<v Speaker 2>board and you have a data collection system that we

1005
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:22.280
<v Speaker 2>for the moment have fully operational on most of our vessels,

1006
01:07:23.719 --> 01:07:26.480
<v Speaker 2>you have the foundation for a real time stock assessment

1007
01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:30.599
<v Speaker 2>because you will have every fishing hole. As soon as

1008
01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:34.639
<v Speaker 2>the catch is processed, the information goes to the database,

1009
01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:37.679
<v Speaker 2>goes into a model together with all the information of

1010
01:07:37.719 --> 01:07:41.280
<v Speaker 2>all the other fishing vessels, and you get a constant

1011
01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:45.480
<v Speaker 2>update of the fish distribution and fish densities and so.

1012
01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:49.320
<v Speaker 2>And that is the basis for real time stock assessment

1013
01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:54.119
<v Speaker 2>and real time management because this is the goal. You

1014
01:07:54.239 --> 01:07:59.480
<v Speaker 2>need real time management when huge amounts of octopus enter

1015
01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:04.280
<v Speaker 2>the Western English channel in certain places. But it's interesting

1016
01:08:04.360 --> 01:08:08.039
<v Speaker 2>to know today that this is happening. I mean the

1017
01:08:08.079 --> 01:08:12.639
<v Speaker 2>system today between the first data collection and the actual

1018
01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:17.520
<v Speaker 2>quota and the advice is something like almost two years.

1019
01:08:17.960 --> 01:08:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Well that's not quick enough now to see all these

1020
01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:27.039
<v Speaker 2>sudden changes. We have to go to real time stock assessment, yeah,

1021
01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:29.000
<v Speaker 2>or a combination of the two. I mean, I'm not

1022
01:08:29.119 --> 01:08:32.239
<v Speaker 2>excluding the one. I think we probably need to to.

1023
01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:34.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we have to feed the old system with

1024
01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:39.319
<v Speaker 2>better data so it performs better. But we need quick

1025
01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:43.479
<v Speaker 2>ways to assess the system in order to have quick

1026
01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:44.760
<v Speaker 2>management measures.

1027
01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:50.600
<v Speaker 1>And would you say we will get Do we still

1028
01:08:50.640 --> 01:08:59.640
<v Speaker 1>need research vessels under see inspections becoming obsolete or would

1029
01:08:59.680 --> 01:09:00.000
<v Speaker 1>they big?

1030
01:09:01.840 --> 01:09:07.239
<v Speaker 2>I think research vessels we will probably still need for

1031
01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:11.479
<v Speaker 2>the more fundamental research, but I would not use them

1032
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:15.640
<v Speaker 2>for the let's say, the operational research like surveys and

1033
01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:22.079
<v Speaker 2>so on. I think it's it's much more efficient to

1034
01:09:22.239 --> 01:09:24.960
<v Speaker 2>use the fishing flee to do that, it will have

1035
01:09:25.039 --> 01:09:27.600
<v Speaker 2>its own challenges. I won't say it will just be

1036
01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:33.800
<v Speaker 2>very easy, because there's differences between vessels, so a catch

1037
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:36.520
<v Speaker 2>of one vessel means something different than a catch of

1038
01:09:36.560 --> 01:09:39.560
<v Speaker 2>another vessel. And then then you have other fishing methods.

1039
01:09:39.880 --> 01:09:43.560
<v Speaker 2>A catch of anglers means something different than a catch

1040
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:47.359
<v Speaker 2>of a palgic troll. So I mean there's challenges there

1041
01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:51.359
<v Speaker 2>as well, but I think there's much more value there

1042
01:09:51.359 --> 01:09:54.039
<v Speaker 2>and I think we can overcome the challenges. So research

1043
01:09:54.119 --> 01:10:01.560
<v Speaker 2>vessels for that probably obsolete inspections. I think the inspections

1044
01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:04.800
<v Speaker 2>can be much less. I mean all the inspections on

1045
01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:08.840
<v Speaker 2>technical measures are not needed anymore. So meash sizes selective

1046
01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:11.279
<v Speaker 2>panels and so you don't have to check it anymore

1047
01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:15.119
<v Speaker 2>because it's free choice for the fissure. What we'll probably

1048
01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:18.880
<v Speaker 2>need inspection is the functioning of the camera, but a

1049
01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:22.319
<v Speaker 2>lot of that can be done the remote. And then

1050
01:10:22.800 --> 01:10:26.319
<v Speaker 2>what catch is actually in the hull of the vessel,

1051
01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:32.880
<v Speaker 2>and that is probably I think that we'll need some

1052
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:38.439
<v Speaker 2>kind of control how that should look like. I think

1053
01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:45.439
<v Speaker 2>inspection should also undergo a paradigm change, because now the

1054
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:50.560
<v Speaker 2>fishers and inspectors are against standing against each other. No,

1055
01:10:51.720 --> 01:10:56.800
<v Speaker 2>I think we know we need social scientists or people

1056
01:10:56.840 --> 01:11:00.439
<v Speaker 2>with social experience from other sectors to have a look

1057
01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:06.279
<v Speaker 2>at that. But I think inspectors should probably be involved

1058
01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:11.640
<v Speaker 2>more in a cooperative way and in a way to

1059
01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:18.479
<v Speaker 2>collect information. I mean, the way we do it. We

1060
01:11:18.560 --> 01:11:21.880
<v Speaker 2>know where the bad guys are in our fisher we

1061
01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:24.800
<v Speaker 2>know what's going on, we know what kind of road

1062
01:11:24.920 --> 01:11:28.720
<v Speaker 2>is going on, we know how people fiddle around with

1063
01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:34.119
<v Speaker 2>fishing gear. Why, because we have this social interaction, We

1064
01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:38.359
<v Speaker 2>talk to each other and there is social control within

1065
01:11:38.399 --> 01:11:40.880
<v Speaker 2>the fishing industry. Fishers know from each other who is

1066
01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:44.560
<v Speaker 2>doing the bad thing, and this information is shared. So

1067
01:11:44.640 --> 01:11:47.560
<v Speaker 2>I think an inspector should also be more involved in

1068
01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:52.039
<v Speaker 2>the fishery like that, and where social control becomes more important,

1069
01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:57.760
<v Speaker 2>and where the good guys who meanwhile for sustainable fishing

1070
01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:01.960
<v Speaker 2>work together amongst them cells and with the scientists and

1071
01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:06.560
<v Speaker 2>with the inspectors to actually push the bad guys to

1072
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:11.000
<v Speaker 2>behave better, because it is in the interest of everybody

1073
01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:15.880
<v Speaker 2>for fishers who actually behave in a sustainable way, and

1074
01:12:15.920 --> 01:12:20.880
<v Speaker 2>the bad guys just ruined it for everybody. So I mean,

1075
01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:24.840
<v Speaker 2>it's a very different way of dealing with each other.

1076
01:12:26.199 --> 01:12:29.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it's put more trust than each other.

1077
01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:34.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so much more fun. I mean, if you get along. Now,

1078
01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:37.960
<v Speaker 2>if an inspector goes on board of a fishing vessel

1079
01:12:38.600 --> 01:12:42.359
<v Speaker 2>and he has to be guided with policemen with machine guns,

1080
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:47.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if this inspector has a fun job now,

1081
01:12:47.680 --> 01:12:49.720
<v Speaker 2>But if an inspector can go on board in a

1082
01:12:49.800 --> 01:12:54.119
<v Speaker 2>very different atmosphere, well maybe this job can become fun

1083
01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:54.600
<v Speaker 2>as well.

1084
01:12:57.960 --> 01:13:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Can push in fleets become the world world's largest ecosystem monitoring.

1085
01:13:02.520 --> 01:13:09.039
<v Speaker 2>Network, definitely, definitely, I'm sure it can. Yeah, because they

1086
01:13:09.079 --> 01:13:13.800
<v Speaker 2>are indeed active over the whole world, and you can

1087
01:13:13.960 --> 01:13:16.600
<v Speaker 2>fill them up with sensors, any sensor you want, and

1088
01:13:16.680 --> 01:13:19.520
<v Speaker 2>you can put it at the surface, and you can

1089
01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:24.760
<v Speaker 2>put it on the fishing gear so it reaches the seafloor. Yeah.

1090
01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:29.119
<v Speaker 2>And if fishers cooperate in that and also give a

1091
01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:32.720
<v Speaker 2>hand in maintaining the system. I mean, a fisher who

1092
01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:39.039
<v Speaker 2>has has his main commercial activity fishing, but has to

1093
01:13:39.199 --> 01:13:43.319
<v Speaker 2>work in the system of data collection and does not

1094
01:13:43.479 --> 01:13:46.279
<v Speaker 2>have to spend time anymore on all the administration and

1095
01:13:46.319 --> 01:13:49.399
<v Speaker 2>the complexity and so on, well, he can spare some

1096
01:13:49.479 --> 01:13:53.079
<v Speaker 2>of his time in making all these sensors work, so

1097
01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:58.119
<v Speaker 2>you don't need expensive maintenance. I mean the fisher himself

1098
01:13:58.159 --> 01:14:01.079
<v Speaker 2>can play an important role in maintenance of cameras and

1099
01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:03.760
<v Speaker 2>maintenance of sensors that but are put on fishing gear.

1100
01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:08.640
<v Speaker 2>So you get a cheap system with very cheap maintenance

1101
01:14:09.279 --> 01:14:14.199
<v Speaker 2>to actually observe the marine ecosystem as a whole.

1102
01:14:16.239 --> 01:14:24.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and who we want specialize data.

1103
01:14:22.359 --> 01:14:25.600
<v Speaker 2>Well in our system today is the fisher who owns

1104
01:14:25.600 --> 01:14:29.680
<v Speaker 2>the data. So we have no rights regarding the data.

1105
01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Of course, if you want to enter the system that

1106
01:14:34.840 --> 01:14:38.760
<v Speaker 2>we are suggesting, the basis of the system is good data.

1107
01:14:39.199 --> 01:14:44.960
<v Speaker 2>So if you voluntarily join the system, you will voluntarily

1108
01:14:45.319 --> 01:14:48.159
<v Speaker 2>provide me with your data. If you don't want to

1109
01:14:48.199 --> 01:14:51.640
<v Speaker 2>do that, find for me, but then you will be

1110
01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:54.840
<v Speaker 2>part of the common Fisheries policy as it is today,

1111
01:14:55.000 --> 01:14:57.560
<v Speaker 2>with all the control and enforcements that comes with it.

1112
01:14:57.960 --> 01:15:01.039
<v Speaker 2>But you have the choice. We will never force any

1113
01:15:01.039 --> 01:15:04.079
<v Speaker 2>fisher to join our system, but we have seen that

1114
01:15:04.159 --> 01:15:06.039
<v Speaker 2>the majority has done it voluntarily.

1115
01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Yeah, And what are the risks of an observation

1116
01:15:12.319 --> 01:15:16.279
<v Speaker 1>based management system?

1117
01:15:16.359 --> 01:15:21.239
<v Speaker 2>M hm? The risks? I think we will probably find

1118
01:15:21.239 --> 01:15:25.359
<v Speaker 2>out the risks when we are trying it out, But

1119
01:15:26.199 --> 01:15:31.039
<v Speaker 2>I think the risks is well, the questions I have

1120
01:15:31.239 --> 01:15:37.279
<v Speaker 2>is will we find ways and models who are actually

1121
01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:42.000
<v Speaker 2>clever enough and quick enough to process all the information

1122
01:15:42.119 --> 01:15:45.479
<v Speaker 2>we will be getting. That's one thing. Another risk is

1123
01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:51.680
<v Speaker 2>well compliance, will fishures maybe find ways around our camera

1124
01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:57.439
<v Speaker 2>system to avoid the quota they are for facing. I

1125
01:15:57.479 --> 01:16:01.960
<v Speaker 2>think these are the two main, main, main things for me,

1126
01:16:02.119 --> 01:16:03.560
<v Speaker 2>main risks.

1127
01:16:04.439 --> 01:16:07.800
<v Speaker 1>When I say this, it's just my own thoughts myself,

1128
01:16:07.840 --> 01:16:10.119
<v Speaker 1>and I don't want to put you in a position hands.

1129
01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:15.479
<v Speaker 1>But one of the problems the round about what we've

1130
01:16:15.520 --> 01:16:20.359
<v Speaker 1>been discussing, and it comes from, you know, a point

1131
01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:24.479
<v Speaker 1>a friend of mine, an Irish man, made to me

1132
01:16:25.039 --> 01:16:32.399
<v Speaker 1>just recently where he felt that the there have a real, real,

1133
01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:37.039
<v Speaker 1>real issue on the macro code in Ireland. And he

1134
01:16:37.159 --> 01:16:41.359
<v Speaker 1>says that the problem where they feel the difficult position,

1135
01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:46.439
<v Speaker 1>the fuel they're in. He says, it's not Brussels. Brussels

1136
01:16:46.560 --> 01:16:50.600
<v Speaker 1>is not the problem. It's not coming from Brussels. He said,

1137
01:16:50.880 --> 01:16:53.600
<v Speaker 1>the problem is Dutch millionaires.

1138
01:16:57.199 --> 01:17:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well now you're talking about it magic freed of course, and.

1139
01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:09.319
<v Speaker 1>But the system is just shocking I feel anyway, and

1140
01:17:09.399 --> 01:17:12.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm not hard left in anyway, I'm not at all

1141
01:17:13.079 --> 01:17:17.239
<v Speaker 1>the conservative all my life. But you don't feel the

1142
01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:23.079
<v Speaker 1>country should own the quota and it's allocuted accordingly.

1143
01:17:24.159 --> 01:17:27.159
<v Speaker 2>So you're saying that it's the country who should own

1144
01:17:27.159 --> 01:17:28.479
<v Speaker 2>the quota. Is that what you're saying?

1145
01:17:29.279 --> 01:17:34.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, rather than because another thing that a diientist, especially

1146
01:17:34.600 --> 01:17:41.520
<v Speaker 1>scientist from Aberdeen Marine Lab, he once quoted he is

1147
01:17:41.720 --> 01:17:46.560
<v Speaker 1>the biggest mistake they ever made here was putting a

1148
01:17:46.720 --> 01:17:50.880
<v Speaker 1>value on quota and license, because he says, now the

1149
01:17:51.000 --> 01:17:55.640
<v Speaker 1>chances of a young guy leaving school his ambition is

1150
01:17:55.680 --> 01:17:58.920
<v Speaker 1>to be a fresherman, going own, to be a skipper

1151
01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:03.760
<v Speaker 1>and eventually with his own board. He says, that's impossible

1152
01:18:03.880 --> 01:18:04.479
<v Speaker 1>to do now.

1153
01:18:05.319 --> 01:18:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I see, I see what you mean. Yes, I

1154
01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:14.840
<v Speaker 2>think I agree, But I think I have been pro

1155
01:18:15.199 --> 01:18:19.520
<v Speaker 2>something in between, because we now have that system where

1156
01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:24.600
<v Speaker 2>the Belgium state owns the quota still and is also

1157
01:18:24.760 --> 01:18:30.039
<v Speaker 2>strongly involved in dividing the quota amongst the different companies.

1158
01:18:32.680 --> 01:18:36.560
<v Speaker 2>I think the advantage of that is that indeed you

1159
01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:40.680
<v Speaker 2>can give the opportunity to young fishers to start. You

1160
01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:43.279
<v Speaker 2>you can actually steer your fishery a little bit so

1161
01:18:43.319 --> 01:18:47.359
<v Speaker 2>that it's done in a social way. The disadvantage is

1162
01:18:47.399 --> 01:18:53.199
<v Speaker 2>that with the complexity of mixed fisheries and all these

1163
01:18:53.199 --> 01:18:56.720
<v Speaker 2>different quota and the chokes pieces issue, and so you

1164
01:18:56.800 --> 01:19:01.560
<v Speaker 2>need a system where you can easily and weekly distribute

1165
01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:04.279
<v Speaker 2>quota to where they are needed. So you need some

1166
01:19:04.399 --> 01:19:09.800
<v Speaker 2>kind of exchange or rental system. But you can perfectly

1167
01:19:09.840 --> 01:19:13.640
<v Speaker 2>do that while the quota are still in the hands

1168
01:19:13.960 --> 01:19:19.640
<v Speaker 2>of the state. Every year, Belgium could distribute the quota

1169
01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:22.279
<v Speaker 2>but still have some hand on how it is done.

1170
01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, my reponts to that hands is well done Belgium,

1171
01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:34.319
<v Speaker 1>to thank you. That seriously mean that how much uncertainty

1172
01:19:34.479 --> 01:19:40.600
<v Speaker 1>is an acceptable in a real tame management system.

1173
01:19:41.399 --> 01:19:48.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think we can allow ourselves quite some uncertainty

1174
01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:54.960
<v Speaker 2>because well we know that the cameras will increase the

1175
01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:59.279
<v Speaker 2>information hugely, so we will make a big step forward

1176
01:19:59.439 --> 01:20:03.840
<v Speaker 2>if we start using this cameras to analyze the full catch,

1177
01:20:05.159 --> 01:20:08.680
<v Speaker 2>so it will be much better than today. But to

1178
01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:14.319
<v Speaker 2>have a perfect catch re registration of all holes is

1179
01:20:14.479 --> 01:20:18.439
<v Speaker 2>just not possible, so we will have to accept some

1180
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:23.279
<v Speaker 2>sort of error and uncertainty. But then I think the

1181
01:20:23.319 --> 01:20:28.359
<v Speaker 2>information that we will have will be probably more than

1182
01:20:28.520 --> 01:20:33.279
<v Speaker 2>enough than needed to actually know where the fishes and

1183
01:20:33.319 --> 01:20:34.760
<v Speaker 2>how they evolved through time.

1184
01:20:36.159 --> 01:20:40.600
<v Speaker 1>But I just in my own head, which I don't

1185
01:20:40.640 --> 01:20:43.680
<v Speaker 1>think I'm missing anything. But from what you said about

1186
01:20:43.760 --> 01:20:50.239
<v Speaker 1>the other romo you're proposing the cameras. For sure don't

1187
01:20:50.359 --> 01:20:54.680
<v Speaker 1>like cameras. But the big bat for me han't listening

1188
01:20:54.720 --> 01:20:58.680
<v Speaker 1>to you. It is there's so many other changes that

1189
01:20:59.000 --> 01:21:02.760
<v Speaker 1>it'll it will just be part of a whole package

1190
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:04.439
<v Speaker 1>and will be acceptable.

1191
01:21:05.399 --> 01:21:09.319
<v Speaker 2>I think the reason fishers don't like cameras is because

1192
01:21:09.359 --> 01:21:13.560
<v Speaker 2>you have a complex set of rules that are difficult

1193
01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:19.640
<v Speaker 2>to comply with. Now, if it's difficult to comply with, well,

1194
01:21:19.760 --> 01:21:22.960
<v Speaker 2>quite often you will have a situation that you don't comply.

1195
01:21:23.760 --> 01:21:29.000
<v Speaker 2>And if then each time a camera will register or

1196
01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:35.359
<v Speaker 2>what's the word camera will actually show to the manager

1197
01:21:36.960 --> 01:21:39.600
<v Speaker 2>that you did not comply with the rules, well, a

1198
01:21:39.720 --> 01:21:41.960
<v Speaker 2>fine is the next thing that will come, or you

1199
01:21:41.960 --> 01:21:44.039
<v Speaker 2>will vessel will be put on the chain on the

1200
01:21:44.119 --> 01:21:47.680
<v Speaker 2>key side, it will stop fishing. So there's the fishes

1201
01:21:47.720 --> 01:21:54.880
<v Speaker 2>are scared to just provide the managers with their true

1202
01:21:54.920 --> 01:21:59.039
<v Speaker 2>information on their catches. But when you change the system

1203
01:21:59.079 --> 01:22:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and it's not so much based anymore on control and enforcement,

1204
01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:06.159
<v Speaker 2>that changes the whole attitude of fishes because they don't

1205
01:22:06.199 --> 01:22:08.520
<v Speaker 2>have to be afraid to be put out of business

1206
01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:12.640
<v Speaker 2>if they just don't follow the rules for a few times. No,

1207
01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:15.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a much more flexible system.

1208
01:22:16.439 --> 01:22:21.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, and can atually signed as realistically processed millions

1209
01:22:21.439 --> 01:22:23.119
<v Speaker 1>of observations per day.

1210
01:22:24.439 --> 01:22:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think they can, but the amount of information

1211
01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:37.840
<v Speaker 2>will not be so huge because we are not transferring

1212
01:22:38.119 --> 01:22:41.279
<v Speaker 2>to the cloud the images. So what we will do

1213
01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:46.079
<v Speaker 2>for each all we will analyze the catch and for

1214
01:22:46.119 --> 01:22:49.239
<v Speaker 2>each of the species we will have a linked distribution.

1215
01:22:49.880 --> 01:22:54.119
<v Speaker 2>So for each fish this means maybe I don't know,

1216
01:22:54.800 --> 01:23:00.600
<v Speaker 2>thirty numbers times I don't know, twenty species is six

1217
01:23:00.720 --> 01:23:05.000
<v Speaker 2>hundred numbers for a whole. I mean that's tiny, tiny,

1218
01:23:06.039 --> 01:23:09.680
<v Speaker 2>So for each all we get a tiny amount of information. Okay,

1219
01:23:09.680 --> 01:23:12.359
<v Speaker 2>if I have to do that for a few thousand vessels,

1220
01:23:12.600 --> 01:23:17.079
<v Speaker 2>still compared to the huge amount of data we are

1221
01:23:17.279 --> 01:23:20.800
<v Speaker 2>able to process these days, well, this information coming from

1222
01:23:20.840 --> 01:23:23.560
<v Speaker 2>the fish fishing fleet will still be tiny. I mean

1223
01:23:23.640 --> 01:23:26.880
<v Speaker 2>what I think the information the amount of data you

1224
01:23:27.039 --> 01:23:32.319
<v Speaker 2>use if you use Facebook for an hour is probably

1225
01:23:32.840 --> 01:23:36.720
<v Speaker 2>much more than the amount of data that you would

1226
01:23:38.560 --> 01:23:42.840
<v Speaker 2>produce with the fishing fleet in the North Sea. So no,

1227
01:23:43.039 --> 01:23:46.079
<v Speaker 2>it's just link distributions, it's just numbers.

1228
01:23:45.920 --> 01:23:51.399
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, yeah, no, that's excellent. And where can our

1229
01:23:51.399 --> 01:23:55.560
<v Speaker 1>listeners follow you online? Active on social media?

1230
01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:02.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to be a I'm sixty one years old.

1231
01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:07.279
<v Speaker 2>Now I'm not so active on social media, but the

1232
01:24:07.399 --> 01:24:10.319
<v Speaker 2>last six months I have been more active on LinkedIn,

1233
01:24:10.960 --> 01:24:14.720
<v Speaker 2>mainly to spread my message. So I force myself to

1234
01:24:16.199 --> 01:24:19.800
<v Speaker 2>be present, and I have to say I kind of

1235
01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:21.880
<v Speaker 2>like it. It's nice you get somebody, get to know

1236
01:24:22.000 --> 01:24:25.159
<v Speaker 2>people with different ideas or the same ideas, and it

1237
01:24:25.239 --> 01:24:30.359
<v Speaker 2>gives discussions and discussions bring wisdom because I don't claim

1238
01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:34.680
<v Speaker 2>to hold the wisdom and the truth in myself. I

1239
01:24:34.760 --> 01:24:39.840
<v Speaker 2>know I make errors and if people discuss with me

1240
01:24:40.199 --> 01:24:42.840
<v Speaker 2>and they will point me at weaknesses in my story,

1241
01:24:42.920 --> 01:24:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and that's for me very interesting because then I can

1242
01:24:46.239 --> 01:24:49.520
<v Speaker 2>will improve my ideas. So no, I'm very happy to

1243
01:24:49.520 --> 01:24:51.760
<v Speaker 2>be there for the moment there, Thank.

1244
01:24:51.560 --> 01:24:55.279
<v Speaker 1>You, Thank you. I would just bebe point that you

1245
01:24:57.000 --> 01:25:02.079
<v Speaker 1>you to the wrong person that you refer you refer

1246
01:25:02.239 --> 01:25:06.680
<v Speaker 1>to being sixty one to somebody who's going to say

1247
01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:11.439
<v Speaker 1>to you, oh, is that all You're that young?

1248
01:25:15.239 --> 01:25:18.279
<v Speaker 2>When I have a few black hairs in my mustache,

1249
01:25:18.439 --> 01:25:21.720
<v Speaker 2>you're probably all white very much.

1250
01:25:21.760 --> 01:25:24.840
<v Speaker 1>So it's a long time. I would like to thank you.

1251
01:25:24.960 --> 01:25:27.840
<v Speaker 1>The only another point I was going to make because

1252
01:25:27.880 --> 01:25:32.600
<v Speaker 1>we include Hans was as I mentioned earlier, and I

1253
01:25:32.640 --> 01:25:38.399
<v Speaker 1>do mean it, well done Belgium, and but I have

1254
01:25:38.479 --> 01:25:45.960
<v Speaker 1>to be upfront. That only goes to the point we fishers,

1255
01:25:46.119 --> 01:25:51.039
<v Speaker 1>I won't be most of still want Scotland to beat

1256
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<v Speaker 1>Belgium when we're playing football.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we had better times. I mean we had to

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<v Speaker 2>ross during the three last matches and only the last

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<v Speaker 2>one we won, and so yeah we're going through, but

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<v Speaker 2>we were a bit nervous, you know, we had better times.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, well you're still there, so you're doing better than us.

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<v Speaker 2>That's true, that's true. Well next time better. I wish

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<v Speaker 2>the Scotch the Scott's sold the luck.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we emptied Boston as far as alcohol is okay,

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<v Speaker 1>Well no, thank you, thank you so much. I really

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate your time and credit to it, your looking at

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<v Speaker 1>doing and I all the very best was that. I

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<v Speaker 1>really do hope you have success. That's fantastic, forward thinking

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<v Speaker 1>and definitely the way to go.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much. My pleasure and my greetings to

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<v Speaker 2>the Scotch fishers and and all scottsmen and women.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you all very much, thank you, same to to

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<v Speaker 1>Belgiums

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<v Speaker 2>MHM