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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and a lot of to see. If it matters,

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Thank you for listening again. Need me today is Hans Pullet,

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scientific director at ILVU, the Belgian Research Institute for Agriculture,

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Fasherism and Food. Welcome Hans, thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thank you very much, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. We could start by asking you

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about the EU fasheries management, any of the frustrations or burdens.

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What is good about the EU Common Fashionries policy.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've always been a fan of the EU and

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of the common Fisheriest policy. I've been doing this job

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for thirty five years and I've seen a lot of benefits.

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I think it's thanks to the common fisheriest policy that

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we still have, you know, fish in the sea. It

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mainly helped bring let's say, the capacity of the fishing

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fleet in balance with the productivity of fish stocks. And

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I think some ten years ago we kind of read

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that and I was very positive and optimistic about the

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future back then. But somewhere along the road I lost

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my faith, being confronted well with, first of all, a

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lot of frustration in the fishing industry, and as I

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have plenty contacts, I've been at sea a lot. I

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really wanted to have a deep look into that issue.

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I'm not a fisherist manager, I'm not a fisheriest biologist.

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I'm a fishing gear technologist, so I from a very

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technical side of the thing. I've been studying fisheries a

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bit ignorant about management and stockers. But then I saw

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things going wrong. I saw a lot of complaints of

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parties involved, and I started having a deeper look into

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stock assessment and fisheries management, and I kind of saw that, well,

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let's say, at all levels of the whole fishery system,

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I see flaws. I see problems, big ones, small ones,

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and each one on its own probably not dramatic, but

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I think if you add it all up, bring it

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all together, I think we have a system that's well

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in desperate need of innovation.

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Speaker 1: Let's say, Wow, such dramatic and desperate need desperate.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, go ahead, Sorry, No.

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Speaker 1: It's just that when the way you said that, if

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you could see it was pretty important that it did

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get Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, actually, coincidently, this morning we had our meeting with

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the fishing industry where we pose the advices and scientific

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advices that have been made in ices for the fish

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stocks they fish, and well, it's negativity all around. They

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don't agree with the results. They are afraid of the future.

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They kind of say or predict that they will be

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able to maybe fish for another few years, but it's

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going to an end. They're very pessimistic for different reasons.

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First of all, in the de light of what we

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discussed today, the accuracy of the determination of the THACS,

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so the total allowable catches the quota. In a number

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of cases they agree, but in many cases they completely

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disagree with the advice and they have a lot of

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difficulties coping with they say, the complexity of the common

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fisheriest policy, of what European managers are imposing on the system.

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They have a huge out of administrative tasks too much,

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and many of them they don't see why they have

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to do with what's the added value. And they suffer from,

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let's say, the top down micromanagement and the very strong

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focus on control and enforcement. So within the whole system

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there's pressure on the fishing industry. And then they have

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to cope with nature protection. They have to cope with

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wind farms coming in and taking fishing grounds. They have

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to cope with closed areas or areas with restrictions they

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have to cope with not to underestimate the consequences of

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climate change, and then climate change kind of messes up

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the whole stock assessment. Scientific fisheries advice. They have to

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cope with these things. They have to cope with a

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landing obligation that gives them choke species which makes them

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stop fishing often or wouldn't say often, but in some

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cases with the wrong quota, so the quota are underestimated,

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so they have to stop fishing while there's still that

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kind of fish and thecy so all these things together

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make that already quite a few fishing vessels have left

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the industry and they say, well, many more will follow

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if we don't change the system.

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Speaker 1: It sounds the way you talk there, and it sounds

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like very similar to what we've very often find and

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the UK that you get specially scientists and the civil servants,

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and they don't listen to fast Man and they know better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they see the daily reality and that's what well,

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mainly I think managers and brussels are missing, but also

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quite a few scientists. We don't want to criticize these people.

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I mean they are my colleagues and I'm part of it,

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and they are hard working people and very clever. But

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often we have let's say the modelers who do the

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computer work and simulating the ecosystem and the fish stocks.

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These people are quite detached from reality as well. There's

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a scientists who go at sea they have a good feeling,

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but that's often not the scientists who do the actual

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scientific work the stock SYSM. So there's a difference between

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data collection and stocka SYSM. So the further you are

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up the chain of the say the scientific system, the

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further you are from the reality. And that's something that

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we are lacking in science. We really should get that

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feel again with reality, and for that you need a

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good and intense contact with the fishing industry. That's what's

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often missing. I mean, I think in Belgium we're doing

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it to be not humble for once, but I think

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we're doing a terrific job. We have been working to

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other intensely with a fishing industry for the last fifteen

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years and the nice thing about that is that we

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have access to all their information, all their data, so

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we actually have a direct link to all the instruments

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on board. Also the scale. They also allow cameras on

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board and we have real time accumulation of this data

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in our data bases, so every hour we get this information.

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So just because of the good relationship we have built,

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there is trust risk cooperation and we have access to

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all the data we need. Now. Of course, in order

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to actually get the real value of this data out

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of there, we cannot do it in the present management system.

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We have to change the system. But we can come

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back to that later. But to come back to your question,

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is actually the fissures who see the reality, who are

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confronted or reality and also confronted with the scientific advice

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and often these two don't match, and so what what

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to do then? And that that's the one of the

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puzzles we are facing now, you know.

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Speaker 1: It takes me my mind has to two conversations I've

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had in previous podcasts, one more recent and at the fact,

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I'm just wondering if you're maybe would know the guy is.

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He was many years with the Marine Laboratory in albernein

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and he was involved with gear Jack Roberts.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, I remember him very well. I mean he

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was active quite long before I became a scientist. But

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I've been. I have seen a lot of his underwater

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footage because I think he was he was a diver

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now taking filming fishing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and he is what he classes as his

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baby was the square mesh, cod ends and panel and

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the point I put hands and be interested in just

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to put the same to you, it was some I

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would have I was having a conversation with an a

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fishery scientist in Iceland on Christians and his name and

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he's well retired. I mean he's in his eighties. Now

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what his The point he made with Jack pretty much

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agreed with be interesting to get your view. He says,

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when they were doing the job, all they did was

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they were out in trawlers and do all their work,

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you know, the assessments and surveys, and it would all

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be done out on trawlers with fishermen. And then they

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decided they were going to get their own vessels.

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Speaker 3: And the way he put it, which is not in cdios,

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that he says, oh, we don't want to go out

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on dirty, smelly trollers. We'll have our own maze news

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ships and he reckons. That was pretty much one of

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the biggest mistakes they ever made in Iceland because he

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says they twok freshermen on scientists apart.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of truth in that. I

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can't even say that we are heading in the other

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direction again. We're moving away from research vessels to do

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this kind of service and we are starting to do

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them again on commercial vessels. First of all, the need,

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as you say, the contact between the fishers and the scientists.

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Scientists have to understand what fishers are facing, the problems

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they are facing at sea. And at the other hand,

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it's very interesting as fishers start to understand the whole

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stock assessment system and how this prediction of the fish stocks,

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how this works, so that they come to some mutual

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understanding and they find some common ground, and that's very

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important for cooperation. And then I have a bit of

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a problem with surveys on research vessels. I mean, I

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won't talk for the other countries, but for Belgium, we

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have a research vessel of seventeen meters long, three eight

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hundred tons, towing a beam troll of four meter and

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a beamtroll of eight meter. I mean that's the kind

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of troll that is towed by a twenty four beam

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troller with a tonage of seventy tons. I mean, so

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I have a fishing gear that is towed by a

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vessel that is fifty times the tottage compared to the

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fishing vessel. I have a problem with that. I mean,

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if the weather is if the sea is flat, there's

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probably does not so much of an issition. But as

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soon as that vessel starts moving, that fishing gear is

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a toy. Just the stone off the ground is not

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the fishing anymore. And that's the advantage of scientists like

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me who have been at sea a lot, who know

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how fishing gears work. That thanks also to Jack Robertson

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who took the video footage of these gear so you

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can actually see how it operates, how it moves on

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the seafloor. If you don't know that, you have no

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idea what's going on. And then you're on your fish

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on your research vessel, and you follow the scientific procedure

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and you think you are doing the right thing. And

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they they are honest people. I don't doubt them, but

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I doubt their practical knowledge. And you you actually need

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fishers to to do something like that properly. If you

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go on board of a fishing vessel to do this

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kind of service. Then you have the right fishing vessel

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with the right fishing gear and the right expertise on

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board to make the gear work. I mean, if you

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go on board of a beam troller you have two trolls.

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The skipper each hole looks in detail at the difference

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of the catch of the two gears, because he knows

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that while you are fishing, things change in the gear,

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a little damage or so, and the catching effisiency can

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suddenly go down. So that every hole they adjust the

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fishing gear if it's needed, and they do that with

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their practical knowledge, which most scientists don't have. So this

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cooperation is essential.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting and it's what fascinates me. Not so

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much fascinates me, but it's a talent point. And listen,

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you say that every person involved in this, who I

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read and I know, is doing good things. They all

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say the same, just exactly the same as your said.

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So what's really interesting, And it's credit to Belgium if

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you're going I don't think that's when you're doing that

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again with the fissures. That's not a backward step. I

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see that, although it's maybe doing what they did before,

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but it's not and it's forward.

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Speaker 2: It's a forward step definitely. And the thing is, if

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you start this cooperation with the fishing fleet, you can

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actually change the system. For example, for the survey. I

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think it's a very interesting example. I talked to you

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about the technical side of things. There's also the temporal

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side of things. The survey is they usually go on

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in the month of September, and they do that every year,

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and that's a good thing. I mean, it's it's a

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time series and you can see through time how the

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fish evolves, but you're limited to the month of September. Now,

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we also know that with climate change that seasons move.

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I mean, fish behavior follows the weather and the temperature

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in the sea and so on, and due to climate change,

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there's a shift. So things that were happening in September

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in the past maybe now are happening in October or

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in August. These things change. So what are you actually

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measuring with your survey in September? Are you measuring the

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same thing as ten years ago? Can you use that

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time series with confidence? I have doubts. What I'm advocating

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for if that is that you use the fishing flee

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to do your surveys and allow the fissures or work

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together with the scientists to have kind of this young

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fish survey, because that's what these surveys are, after the

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fish with fishing gear, with small measures to catch the

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young fish. So your young fish survey, you should spread

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it over the whole year. And if you use the

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fishing flee to do that and you give kind of

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assignments to the different vessels to go fish there with

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small messhon there there, spread over the year, you get

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that picture of the young fish over a wide area

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throughout time, so you can actually follow up how fish

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move geographically, how it changes in time, how quickly they grow,

244
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what is the mortality rate? All this information you get

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thanks to spreading the surveys over a wide area and

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throughout the year. And really I'm really advocating for that.

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I think this would be a big step forward, especially

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because with climate change you have these sudden changes or

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these huge changes that you don't pick up with a

250
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regular surveys or not quickly enough. So if you do that,

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if you can do that quickly, as a manager, you

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can react quickly. As a fisher, you can react quickly.

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You also have a better idea about the geographical distribution

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of the young fish. I mean, you want to save

255
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the young fish. If you don't know where they are,

256
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it's not easy when you plan your fishery as a

257
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fisher But if you have these maps, let's say, kind

258
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of a heat maps of distribution maps of small fish,

259
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then and you know where they are and how they move,

260
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and you know where the commercial fish is that you

261
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are targeting, well you can plan your fishery to save

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the young fish and maximize the catch of your marketable fish.

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So there's a lot of value in this cooperation and

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in better data collection.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, correctly. What I'm a little bit puzzled with when

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you see what you're doing in Belgium, can you do that?

267
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And I thought it would have to be eel policy. No,

268
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we don't have to do that.

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Speaker 2: No, we are not doing this yet. This is what

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we are suggesting. We have this, We have this alternative

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approach that we would like to have. We would like

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to for example, we would like to do that in

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the North Sea and we would really love to have

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the British there. I missed my old friend them since

275
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the Brexit, But I mean it makes a lot of

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sense to manage an area like the North Sea with

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the same rules, with the same scientific approach, with the

278
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same cooperation together. You know, we are if we are

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politically separated. I mean, fish don't have borders, no, so

280
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let's co operate there. But the thing is now, we

281
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are not allowed to do that yet, so this survey

282
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is on board. Yes, we can do survice on board

283
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of commercial vessels, but that's a much different approach. You

284
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have to really plan, and so we are still stuck

285
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with the surveys in September. We do that on board

286
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of mostly on board of commercial vessels now, and we

287
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have to have a special permission to do that. So

288
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as long as we stay in Belgian waters that's not

289
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so difficult. But our survey goes beyond that British and

290
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Dutch waters, and so we need a special permission and

291
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it often takes us six months to get that permission.

292
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So I mean there's an administrative burden there as well,

293
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:10,400
so we should get rid of.

294
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Speaker 1: Yeah, when you when you said that, when you made

295
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:20,359
the point the good borders don't know borders, I think

296
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I think is that the term you used?

297
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Speaker 2: Yes?

298
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Speaker 1: I think so, yes, I would I would take that

299
00:19:27,599 --> 00:19:31,920
at stage further hands and say personally said this, and

300
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:37,640
and people like yourselves don't have borders, s preasures don't

301
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,319
have borders. It's just when you take politicians and that's

302
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:42,839
when the problems starts.

303
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's but I think we're stuck with that system.

304
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Speaker 1: And what would you say is gone wrong with the

305
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,079
U c f p E.

306
00:19:52,079 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 2: Common Facial Well, I think when you have a system,

307
00:19:58,279 --> 00:20:02,319
any system to manage something, and you see some flaws

308
00:20:02,519 --> 00:20:04,960
and you want to improve, well, you add a layer

309
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of additional rules, and then a few years later there's

310
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,880
again a people look at the quality of the system

311
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,359
and they see some flaws again, and so every so

312
00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:22,480
many years there's a layer of regulations and administrations added

313
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to the system, which more and more makes it complicated.

314
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,640
That's the same with most of the management systems in

315
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our society. And that's what politics do. Politics identify a

316
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,279
problem and they add a number of laws and regulations

317
00:20:39,319 --> 00:20:42,000
to solve it. But if you keep on doing that,

318
00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:45,559
after a while, your system becomes so complex that it

319
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,559
is just not workable anymore. And that's this is what

320
00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:52,759
we have seen in the Common Fisheriest policy. There's very

321
00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:57,599
few people actually understand the whole system. Ask an inspector

322
00:20:57,799 --> 00:21:00,599
when it goes. Let's see if you know all the

323
00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:05,319
technical measures and can actually see any fishing gear, if

324
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,759
all these things are correctly rigged or not. I think

325
00:21:09,799 --> 00:21:12,920
they know that. The main things that they don't know everything.

326
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,519
For a number of regulations. They don't know exactly if

327
00:21:16,559 --> 00:21:21,119
it goes about selective panels, square meshed panels, for example,

328
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,799
how exactly it must be fixed in a gear. It's

329
00:21:25,839 --> 00:21:28,200
not easy, and to control that is not easy. So

330
00:21:28,279 --> 00:21:34,880
it's all becoming too complex and well, the common fisheriest

331
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:40,720
policy has always stimulated innovation in science in fisheries. I'm

332
00:21:40,759 --> 00:21:43,599
really grateful for that. But the one thing they forgot

333
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:49,000
is to innovate themselves. So we have an old fashion system. Yeah,

334
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,880
the same with fisheries science. I think we still have.

335
00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:56,319
Of course, it has improved over the years. It has

336
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,599
become more and more efficient, but the basic system is

337
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:04,240
still Beverton and hold Stock assessment idea from behind the

338
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,440
second just after the Second World War. We're still working

339
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,319
with the same ideas. We have to fundamentally reform and

340
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,200
not just ajust. But that's what we're doing. Every adjusting

341
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,359
a little bit and fixing this a little bit and

342
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,519
in the end, well it's more or less acceptable for everybody,

343
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,000
but it doesn't really.

344
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:28,079
Speaker 1: Work, and are would you say creatures? Our scientists are

345
00:22:28,319 --> 00:22:32,400
happy with the management system.

346
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:38,559
Speaker 2: I have the impression that amongst scientists they have just

347
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,359
learned to live with the system and have kind of

348
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,599
accepted it and try to cope with it. And especially

349
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,839
the younger people. I mean, they come into that system

350
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,799
and this is what it is, and this is what

351
00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:57,519
they have to work with. I mean, I have seen

352
00:22:58,079 --> 00:23:01,359
the system evolving over thirty five five years. I have

353
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,279
seen strengths and weaknesses coming back, and I know where

354
00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:07,720
the system is flawed. But most scientists just just cope

355
00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:12,279
with it. And one other thing, yeah, yeah, well, I

356
00:23:12,319 --> 00:23:16,759
think the most important thing is that most scientists don't

357
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:22,359
believe that we can fundamentally reform the system. They just say, well,

358
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,119
that's a missy mission, impossible. Let's not try even try that.

359
00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:29,640
Don't put energy in. That won't work. We will try

360
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,079
to fiddler around and try to copy with it. That's

361
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:32,759
the attitude.

362
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 1: And when you see the flaws and that you feel

363
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,359
the common vers it's policy could be built around a

364
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,079
lack of proper information.

365
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 2: A lack of proper information. No, I think you you

366
00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:52,000
need decent information to manage this, of course. Yeah, well

367
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:53,000
I think no.

368
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,039
Speaker 1: But do you think it's built on although they didn't

369
00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:56,920
realize that?

370
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,160
Speaker 2: Can you rephrase your question and I don't think I under.

371
00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 1: Sorry, Sorry, I'm just asking what with freshialties, scientific fressurities advised?

372
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,359
Is it if the common fashionist policy is built around

373
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,480
a lack of information?

374
00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:16,079
Speaker 2: Ah? Yes, I think so, a lack of a lack

375
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,799
of knowledge of the reality at sea. I really think

376
00:24:19,799 --> 00:24:24,000
that that's the thing, because you have a management system

377
00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:29,519
in the EU that's focused on control and enforced enforcement.

378
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:35,599
So by this definition, it's based on distrust between the

379
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,039
managers and the fishers, and the consequence is that the

380
00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:43,920
fishers will not release all the information they have. They

381
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,920
will often even release information that is just not true.

382
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,880
I mean, if you have regulations that are too complex

383
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,119
to follow, well, then fishers will find a way around

384
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,839
it and will withhold information that is real, reliable, and

385
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,839
will spread information that is just wrong. As a consequence,

386
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,640
the perception of the fisheries, of managers and often scientists

387
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,920
as well, is not correct, does not reflect the reality

388
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,720
at sea. So if you look at all the different

389
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:22,480
data sources that we use as scientists, well, each of

390
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:26,559
these data sources have an issue. Lockbook data I mean

391
00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:29,599
logbook DTA. We have one data in twenty four hours

392
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,000
that's to start with low resolution. It's so called digitized,

393
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,559
but it's still manually put in, so it's open to errors,

394
00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:40,720
it's open to fraud, and we know there is fraud.

395
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,039
So logbook data are I think, not very reliable. It's

396
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,759
not as I mean, the scientific system will not crash

397
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,319
or be completely wrong because of the logbook data. But

398
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,160
if you add the other uncertainties to it, I think

399
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,079
you really get to have a problem. For example, discards

400
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,880
for stock assessment, we have to know how much fish die,

401
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,279
so we also should know how much of the small

402
00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:14,799
fish is called and thrown back overboard. We send observers

403
00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:16,880
at sea to do that, and we have a coverage

404
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,440
of about one percent. Now every fisher who goes at

405
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,279
sea knows that variability of fish catches is very high.

406
00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:28,640
I mean, you fish at one side of the sandbank

407
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,119
and you get this type of catch, and you move

408
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,200
one hundred meters to the other side of the sand

409
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,559
bank and you get a completely different catch composition. Fish

410
00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:44,559
catches are very very variable, so you need a really

411
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,039
high sampling percentage to get reliable data. If you only

412
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:53,799
have one percent, well I have doubts. I'm only a

413
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,240
simple fishing gear technologists, but I mean, if you know

414
00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:00,160
how fish catches are and you know your own have

415
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,759
one percent coverage, I think there's a problem. Then scientists

416
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,640
challenge me and say, do you have any scientific proof

417
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:10,359
that statistically this one percent is not enough?

418
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:10,839
Speaker 1: No?

419
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,039
Speaker 2: Sorry, I don't. I don't. It's just my common sense,

420
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,640
which can be wrong, of course, But I mean that

421
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,759
there's just quite because there's a question there. But then

422
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:27,759
there's other uncertainties, like, for example, natural mortality. In fish

423
00:27:27,799 --> 00:27:32,119
stock assessment models, natural mortality is very important because you

424
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,759
have to assess of all the different ages every year

425
00:27:35,799 --> 00:27:38,480
how much fish will die. So part of them will

426
00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:41,720
die due to fisheries, and this is something you can

427
00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:44,920
more or less measure with an error which is I

428
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,160
guess too large. But you also have to estimate how

429
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,480
many fish die a natural death, and for small fish

430
00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:56,000
this can be very high. Usually this number is kept

431
00:27:56,079 --> 00:28:01,240
constant every year because it's very difficult to to measure

432
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,039
in the sea. How much fish die a natural death,

433
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,000
that's a very difficult thing to do, so they try

434
00:28:09,039 --> 00:28:12,160
to estimate this based on a number of parameters, and

435
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,160
because we don't have the information, it is kept constant

436
00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:21,359
over the years. Now, in a stable ecosystem with stable climate,

437
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,880
stable weather, I think this is not really a problem.

438
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,039
So I think for many decades this was not a

439
00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:30,640
problem before climate change started to kick in. Now we

440
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,039
see with climate change that things are happening. For example,

441
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,519
we didn't used to have squid in the North Sea

442
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,640
and we had pelagic fish stocks herring, mackerel. Now the

443
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,880
last three four five years we see massive amounts of

444
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,799
squid coming into the North Sea. They eat things. If

445
00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:52,519
they are massive in numbers, well, fish they eat is

446
00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:55,480
massive as well, so they eat herrings, they eat all

447
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,279
this kind of pelagic fish. But this is not taken

448
00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:03,480
into account in the stock assessment. The natural mortality is

449
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,319
kept constant. But the natural mortality due to the squid

450
00:29:07,519 --> 00:29:10,119
is changing dramatically, and we see this with other fish

451
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:12,960
stocks as well. We see the octopus coming in the

452
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,880
western English Channel, we see the cottlefish coming massively in

453
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,039
the Eastern English Channel. They eat stuff and all this

454
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,519
is not taken into accounts. So natural mortality is one

455
00:29:25,519 --> 00:29:28,680
of the main problems in stock assessment, and this is

456
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:35,559
getting worse due to climate change. So well, there's quite

457
00:29:36,079 --> 00:29:40,240
a number of issues with information in the common fisheries policy.

458
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:44,319
Well other things just told me when I talk too much.

459
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:51,279
But for example, the technical measures messize regulation. Well, in

460
00:29:51,359 --> 00:29:56,799
every fishery where valuable fish escape, the gear escape the

461
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,279
net through the measures, fisher will notice and fisher you

462
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:03,440
don't like that. They's just just just see the money

463
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,759
swimming out of the net. If the messize the legal

464
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:11,359
messize is too high because the marketable fish escape, well,

465
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,319
fishes will fiddle around with a mesh, they will do

466
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,680
stuff so the fish cannot escape anymore. And this is

467
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,319
something that you see going on throughout our region. I

468
00:30:23,359 --> 00:30:26,519
wouldn't say not in every fishery, but when small but

469
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:33,960
when market valuable fish escape, it happens in it In

470
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:40,160
the management system, people believe that the messiized regulation is

471
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,920
that fishes just follow it, but they don't. So again

472
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,039
there's a perception that control and enforcement works, but in

473
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,440
reality it doesn't. So yeah, there's quite a lot of

474
00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:53,240
problems with information.

475
00:30:54,599 --> 00:30:58,079
Speaker 1: It's quite fascinating when you talk about the squid and

476
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:03,599
licking it to the suation have gotten south west of

477
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:11,440
the the octopus. That's really interesting. I'm sure that there's

478
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,599
something going on. The only thing I was wanting to

479
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,039
ask you as well, when you're with you're mentioning a

480
00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:20,440
claimate change is quite a bit times when you see

481
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,440
about since it kicked? Then? How when what sort of

482
00:31:24,519 --> 00:31:28,480
tame skilled would you give when that started becoming under shire?

483
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,799
Speaker 2: I think it's already an issue.

484
00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:39,119
Speaker 1: I think what, yeah, yeah, but since how since when

485
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:40,319
would you would?

486
00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:46,119
Speaker 2: Well? I think I do this job since the nineteen nineties,

487
00:31:46,319 --> 00:31:49,640
and I have seen in the Southern North Sea, which

488
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:55,119
is probably temperate, change is quicker in shallow areas. In

489
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,799
the Southern North Sea is a shallow area, so I

490
00:31:57,839 --> 00:32:02,039
think we have seen the climb change consequences quite early.

491
00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:05,240
So halfway the nineteen nineties I saw the first signals

492
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:08,279
when I went, that's see you because you would be

493
00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:10,200
doing these experiments every year.

494
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:14,039
Speaker 1: Well. Yeah. The reason I asked that is because I

495
00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:17,559
remember there worst boats, especially out of out the Adia

496
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,720
and what we call the deep water species. You know,

497
00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:24,960
they were in the well into the Atlantic and the

498
00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:33,000
deeper water catching things like black alabed blue ling species

499
00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:37,279
like that, and there were scientists going out with them.

500
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:42,759
Now I'm going back into the eighties and just maybe

501
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:48,400
into the nineties, and there were a wild swing in

502
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,839
the temperatures in the deep water as much as six degrees,

503
00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:57,440
which in percentage terms was massive, and they were recording

504
00:32:57,519 --> 00:32:58,720
that many years ago.

505
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,799
Speaker 2: I look at that. Yeah, there's probably a lot of

506
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,880
things we actually don't know or do not take into account.

507
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:15,119
Speaker 1: And how are you dealing with freshratas in Belgium in

508
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,240
what way? Just there's things you're talking about with.

509
00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:25,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, well we struggle, you know, we really struggle. Well,

510
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,359
first of all, we started up this corporation, and I

511
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,960
think all all levels from the ministry, the administration, scientists,

512
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:38,000
the industry and also the NGOs, we are on the

513
00:33:38,039 --> 00:33:42,880
same line. We all think fisheries should be sustainable, fish

514
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:48,599
stocks should be within the safe range, ecosystems should be healthy.

515
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,480
But on the other hand, we all also believe that

516
00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:55,799
we should have a fishery that is profitable and that

517
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:02,599
can focus on efficient fishing. I often, often, I had

518
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:08,239
in the past been criticized by saying that fisheries should

519
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,519
be efficient. But I think if you fish efficiently, then

520
00:34:11,559 --> 00:34:15,440
you use fewer resources also less fuel to catch the

521
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,559
same amount of fish. So fishing should be efficient. We

522
00:34:18,599 --> 00:34:21,760
all believe that we are behind that idea, so we

523
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,440
are there's unity in Belgium to deal with fisheries, and

524
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,880
we all think that we are facing problems that are

525
00:34:31,079 --> 00:34:35,119
caused by the system. So we all also think that

526
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,000
we should change the system, and we are working on that.

527
00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,599
We are continuously trying trying to think about alternatives. That

528
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,199
this is why fishers are giving us all their confidential data,

529
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:51,800
because they say, here we are the good data, do something,

530
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,360
do something with it so we can get rid of

531
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,000
this system today that doesn't work and move to something

532
00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,039
that actually does work and do that in co So

533
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,800
I think this is how we are dealing with fisheries

534
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,960
in Belgium. We we have problems, but we are actually

535
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,360
trying to think outside the box to find a solution.

536
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:14,119
The thing is we have to convince other parties because

537
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:17,280
we are tiny. Belgium is a tiny country. We have

538
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,079
sixty five kilometers of coast. Compare that to the thousands

539
00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:25,079
of kilometers. I guess in the UK we are insignificant.

540
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,880
But I do think that the small Belgians have some

541
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,360
good ideas worth spreading, so we are looking for support.

542
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,480
We are looking for other parties to actually help us

543
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,599
question the presence system and also work on an alternative.

544
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,800
We have some ideas, but it's not worked out in detail.

545
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,840
We cannot do it by ourselves as well, so we

546
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,920
are trying to copy with our own problems, but also

547
00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:59,679
trying to set up cooperation from the countries around us.

548
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 1: And can you see a better system could arise from it?

549
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,559
Speaker 2: Well, we started this idea, I think a number of

550
00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:17,679
years ago, thinking but acknowledging there's an issue and trying

551
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,559
to find solutions. And I think we have a pretty

552
00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:27,079
good idea of what could work. And well, the first

553
00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:29,199
thing is the data collection that I think it all

554
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:34,239
starts with observing what are the consequences of fishing on

555
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,039
the fish stocks and on the ecosystems. In order to

556
00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:40,519
do that, you need good information, you need good data.

557
00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:44,440
So and the fishers agree with that, we want to

558
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,400
put cameras on board for a full catch analysis. So

559
00:36:51,199 --> 00:36:54,360
many fishermen are opposed to the idea to have cameras

560
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,559
on board. I don't need cameras to see what fishers

561
00:36:57,599 --> 00:36:59,840
are doing. I just want to know the catch. That's

562
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,800
so in Belgium we put the camera above the conveyor

563
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,320
belt and all the fish that passes are recorded. It's

564
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,480
a technology in development and so it doesn't work full yet.

565
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,119
But the idea is that if we do that, we

566
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:17,480
can calculate the mortality caused by each individual fishing vessel.

567
00:37:17,559 --> 00:37:19,960
What is the impact of that vessel during that year

568
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:25,480
on the fish stocks. Now, if you know that and

569
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:30,840
you can still of course, you still need quota and

570
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,480
you can, if necessary, limit fishing vessels with simple management

571
00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:38,440
measures like for example, days at sea. This is the

572
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,280
whole management system. You have the observation, you have the

573
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,599
quota to limit, and you have the days at sea

574
00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:52,000
to get involved or to steer the fisheries in the

575
00:37:52,079 --> 00:37:55,920
right direction. If you have that, you don't need anything else.

576
00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:58,719
And the nice thing about that is you don't need

577
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,239
technical measures, don't need mes size, You don't need to

578
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,000
impose square mesh panels because fishers will use them themselves

579
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:08,840
and will design them according to their own needs and

580
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:14,360
their own situation. You don't need administration, you don't need

581
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,440
all these aspections that see. So imagine the simplicity and

582
00:38:18,519 --> 00:38:23,800
the reduction in costs. If you move towards that system,

583
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:30,159
then all the complaints about administrative burden, complexity of regulations,

584
00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:34,159
controls and so on, all these things just disappear and

585
00:38:34,199 --> 00:38:37,639
you get a situation where you can actually have trust

586
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,440
between all these parties and real cooperation. So the data

587
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:47,559
are given without control and enforcement. Fishers say, okay, here

588
00:38:47,679 --> 00:38:50,920
are by data. You can know everything I can, but

589
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,079
for the rest, let me do my thing. I want

590
00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:56,679
to focus on fishing. I want to follow the fish

591
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,199
through the seasons and go fish them where they are

592
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,400
with the fishing gear I think is most suitable to

593
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,199
do that. And if I want to fish during the

594
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,159
daytime with this fishing gear and during the nighttime with

595
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,760
another fishing gear which is not allowed today, just let

596
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,960
them do that. Give them all the freedom to conductor fishery,

597
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,920
but be fully open in your catches. So this is

598
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:25,440
let's say, in a nutshell, what we want to do.

599
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,559
Speaker 1: That sounds very impressive, and do you think it's realistic.

600
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: I think it's very realistic because we are actually already

601
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,480
doing it. I mean, the foundation collecting the data. We

602
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:45,159
are more or less ready except for the camera and

603
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,079
the analysis of the video footage. There's still work there,

604
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:51,719
but already most of the species be recognized. We can

605
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,760
measure their length, We even can extra can get extra

606
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,880
affirmation on the condition of the fishing. So the technology

607
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,559
is there we can do. The main thing now is

608
00:40:02,599 --> 00:40:06,599
that the management system has to change to give the

609
00:40:06,639 --> 00:40:10,199
fisher the freedom, because what is the incentive of the

610
00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:13,199
fisher to give all his data? Because this is a

611
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,559
first criticism we get fishers will never give all their data. No,

612
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,000
but why don't they give their data because you have

613
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:26,519
a very restrictive control and enforcement regime. But if you

614
00:40:26,639 --> 00:40:30,360
change that system where you say we don't need that,

615
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,840
we don't need all these regulations, we only need the data,

616
00:40:35,199 --> 00:40:39,360
then the incentive of the fissure is the freedom of fisher,

617
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:45,159
free choice of gear, free choice of operation, within of course,

618
00:40:45,519 --> 00:40:49,719
the bigger boundaries of sustainability. There are habitats you have

619
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,639
to protect from fishing. There are areas that are vulnerable,

620
00:40:53,639 --> 00:40:56,119
there are species that are vulnerable, so you need this

621
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,119
kind of frame of basic protection. But within that frame,

622
00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:03,199
for me, it's full freedom.

623
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,599
Speaker 1: It's impressive what you say there hands because it remains

624
00:41:06,639 --> 00:41:10,320
me of something that Jack Robertson said when they were

625
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,880
talking and discussions without size of mesh on the square

626
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,760
panels and things, and one of his colleagues sent them

627
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,719
will or from above. It was thrown upon because it

628
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,320
was what are the pressures cheat and do something in deathland?

629
00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:29,760
So there was no trust.

630
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the problem when you work in a

631
00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:39,079
system based on control and enforcement. Well, you can enforce,

632
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,599
you try to, you can regulate and say, well, in

633
00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:45,840
this kind of Scottish cold fishery, you have to use

634
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,519
this square mesh panel to allow haddock and whiting to escape,

635
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,159
and that panel has to be fifty messions on twenty

636
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:57,599
measures of that mesh size in that material and that

637
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:00,000
twine thickness, and you have to put it so many

638
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,920
from the content. I mean, this is how these things

639
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,800
get regulated. It's a very proscriptive, prescriptive. Now, the problem

640
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,880
is that for the fishing vessel where the experiments went on,

641
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:15,360
this will probably work. But if you go on another

642
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,000
vessel in another season with a slightly different gear design,

643
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,320
you will probably have to put your square mesh paddle

644
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,079
a little more in front or with the board in

645
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:26,440
the back, or make it bigger or smaller. I mean,

646
00:42:27,079 --> 00:42:30,239
fishers have to adapt these things to their own situation.

647
00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:33,760
But if your regulation says this is how it has

648
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,320
to be, where in many cases it just won't work.

649
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,760
So you have to give the fisher the freedom and

650
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,119
judge the fisher on the outcome on his catch. If

651
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:45,800
you have a fisher using a square mesh panel and

652
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,320
you have a huge amount of haddock and writing bike

653
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,440
or bycatch that you have to discard, well, it's probably

654
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,960
because the square mesh panel is not in the right position.

655
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,559
So you look at the catch and you let the

656
00:42:57,599 --> 00:43:01,199
fisher adjust his fishing gear so that the whiting and

657
00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:04,000
they had to kind of escape, not the other way around.

658
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:10,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And is there in the EU? Just is

659
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:11,719
there a desert see?

660
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:12,519
Speaker 2: Well?

661
00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: Another, I'm sure there's a quota system. Is there desert?

662
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:21,079
Speaker 2: See? Yes? In the EU, we have every single possible

663
00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:25,599
way of regulating. Yeah, we have days at sea, we

664
00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:29,599
have area restrictions, we have real time closures, we have

665
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,800
technical measures of all kinds, we have quota, we have

666
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:38,559
a landing obligation, we have all these things all together. Yeah.

667
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,679
Speaker 1: Crazy, Now you may relate to this from what you're saying.

668
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,800
There hands a conversation had we have a friend of

669
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,119
mine who was landing nor one of our rural ports

670
00:43:50,159 --> 00:43:54,079
scrubs that scapper is kept an owner of the board.

671
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:58,639
And he was on the pier with me the letter

672
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,679
in his hand and this is missus, this is this

673
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,119
is a letter of all my variations what I have

674
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:13,599
to do and adhered and policymakers from civil servants. And

675
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:19,360
this comment to me Hans was missus. I can see

676
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,039
the person that wrote this letter that has never been

677
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:24,039
on a fashion bod in his life.

678
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:26,519
Speaker 2: And that's a problem. I mean, I have a lot

679
00:44:26,519 --> 00:44:29,760
of respect for the people in the European Commission. I

680
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,320
mean I've been working together with the people for thirty

681
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,320
five years. They are hard working people. They want to

682
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,039
do the right thing though discussion about it, but they

683
00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:44,360
miss that that feeling of the reality. And this is

684
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,639
so necessary. This is why stakeholder involvement and this is

685
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:51,239
one of the big buzzwords of the last ten fifteen years,

686
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,880
stakeholder involvement, and the European Commission has really tried to

687
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,360
organize that stakeholder involvement. But what do you see that

688
00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:06,760
is both often meetings between managers, scientists and the representatives

689
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,079
of the fishing industry, which are also people who are

690
00:45:11,159 --> 00:45:14,320
doing a good job, but most of them don't go

691
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,960
at sea anymore or just know their own special situation

692
00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:25,039
when they were fishers themselves, and the stakeholder involvement is

693
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,519
quite superficial. I think we need much more cooperation with

694
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,199
the actual fishers, people who go at sea, and I

695
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,079
think you cannot do that at the level we are

696
00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:40,679
doing that now, I mean the level meetings in Brussels.

697
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,760
Now you have to go local. You have to have

698
00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:50,840
this let's say, more dispersed stakeholder informment spread over the

699
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:55,119
area where the local people can actually talk about their

700
00:45:55,159 --> 00:45:58,639
own specific situation. And you need a management system that's

701
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:05,280
very flexible to be adjustable to local situations. And then

702
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,239
because this is all very difficult to control and enforce,

703
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,400
you get rid of control and enforcement and you change

704
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,079
a system that is too so it is based on

705
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,599
cooperation and openness and trust. So it's it's a real

706
00:46:21,119 --> 00:46:25,440
complete shift in how we address fisheries.

707
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:32,679
Speaker 1: Another comment that they have been widely used here with

708
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:38,320
what the word you used. You mentioned just a last

709
00:46:38,639 --> 00:46:45,559
said about stakeholders, and it's a term used here. There's

710
00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:50,639
a vast difference between stakeholders and openion holders.

711
00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:53,559
Speaker 2: And what's the last work here where you use.

712
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: There's a massive difference between stakeholders and opinion holders.

713
00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:04,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, opinion holders yet I didn't understand the word yet,

714
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,840
but okay, I get it now. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

715
00:47:09,119 --> 00:47:12,519
it doesn't There is indeed a big, big difference. And

716
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,519
of course it's not easy to organize this, but I

717
00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:20,360
think it's it's necessary.

718
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:27,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and hope. There's a big question. Now, how can

719
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:32,159
we get or obviously you how can you get rid

720
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:37,519
of the administration burden under the complex regulations?

721
00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well by changing the system towards what they call

722
00:47:42,679 --> 00:47:47,239
an output control. So you look at the output of

723
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,519
the system, and the output is the catch. So you

724
00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:57,159
look at the catch of all the fishing vessels. You

725
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,360
have to be able to record what's in the catch.

726
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,320
You can do do that for example with the camera

727
00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:08,320
on board. And once you have this, as I explained before,

728
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,679
you have the system of catch analysis, you have the

729
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,320
quota simply regulations days at see, and all the rest

730
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,800
of the administration can go. And the thing is that

731
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:25,519
the data collection that we are uh that we have developed,

732
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,000
which is this automated automatic link with the fishing vest

733
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:35,119
So all the instruments on board that are interesting produced

734
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:38,519
data and this data goes straight through the cloud to

735
00:48:38,639 --> 00:48:46,199
our database. So once you have that system, it's fully automated.

736
00:48:47,199 --> 00:48:51,159
So one advantage is that there's no humans involved, so

737
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:56,239
no errors, no fraud or less fraud because there's always

738
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:02,400
possibility for fraud, but especially there no administration necessary, so

739
00:49:02,679 --> 00:49:05,599
the skipper doesn't even have to fill out a look book.

740
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:10,079
It's all automatic, so the fisher can actually concentrate on

741
00:49:10,199 --> 00:49:13,360
this fishing. So if you go to that system, all

742
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,039
administration and all complexity of regulations are how you called it,

743
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:23,159
redundant or not needed, just not needed.

744
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 1: It's forward back in and we get would you say

745
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,400
where you would be in a which the stige will

746
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,000
observe everything and regulate less.

747
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing, and regulate yeah yeah, less is

748
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:44,599
an understatement.

749
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: How could an alternative management or government that then look

750
00:49:51,119 --> 00:49:52,800
like mm hmm.

751
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think first of all, you have the central

752
00:49:58,039 --> 00:50:02,599
managers in the EU. I'm talking about EU, so of

753
00:50:02,639 --> 00:50:06,480
course they have to have some handle over what's going

754
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,920
on AT's see. So I think in the European Parliament

755
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,480
they have to set the boundaries. What do we mean

756
00:50:12,519 --> 00:50:16,519
with sustainability, what do we mean with the healthy ecosystem

757
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:22,559
and intact habitats and they have to define how that

758
00:50:22,599 --> 00:50:25,679
should look like. This is something that society has to

759
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,199
decide upon how much damage do we accept for fisheries

760
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,559
to do so that's done at the higher political level.

761
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:40,440
That's there. Then your European Commission should not deal with micromanagement.

762
00:50:40,639 --> 00:50:45,920
I mean they should follow up how the whole ecosystem

763
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,000
and fish stocks are evolving through time, and they have

764
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:52,079
to check with what the politicians in the European Parliament

765
00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:54,760
have to have decided. They have to see based on

766
00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:58,639
reliable information, how the fishtocks are evolving and is this

767
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,000
actually what we have decided as a society how it

768
00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:07,519
should be. If that's correct, well just let them do so.

769
00:51:07,639 --> 00:51:12,400
You as Europein Commission has to measure the outcome, has

770
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,199
to measure the status of the fish stocks and the

771
00:51:15,199 --> 00:51:19,000
status of the ecosystem. If that's fine, just let them go.

772
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:23,400
If the Commission sees that something's going wrong, that there's

773
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,079
in some area over fishing or some fish stocks in problem,

774
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,719
or to match damage to the ecosystem, well they have

775
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:37,079
to be able to, let's say, bring some changes and

776
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,480
bring back the fishery within the boundaries of sustainability. But

777
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:45,239
they have to do that with means that are easy

778
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,480
to implement. For example, today we have a lot of

779
00:51:48,519 --> 00:51:52,760
regulations which are almost impossible to control. For example, the

780
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,000
landing obligation. Forget it, there's no compliance for the moment,

781
00:51:57,079 --> 00:52:00,320
not possible to control. So if you can't control all it,

782
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:04,760
don't do it. Don't make yourself ridiculous, I'm sorry. Do

783
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,559
it with days at sea for example, So if the

784
00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:12,039
Commision see is that fishing fleets are not behaving well,

785
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:15,079
reduce their days at sea. Very simple. Every vessel that

786
00:52:15,119 --> 00:52:18,840
goes out and in a fishing harbor is recorded. So

787
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,800
it's the most easy way to control the fishery and

788
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,719
very efficient. So of course the European Commission has to

789
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,920
have some means to control that, and that's the way

790
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,159
they can do that. Once you have that, you don't

791
00:52:34,159 --> 00:52:37,360
need technical measures, you don't need expections at sea, you

792
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,119
don't need minimum landing sizes, you don't need a landing

793
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:46,480
obligation and so on. Then finally fishers can concentrate on

794
00:52:46,639 --> 00:52:50,880
what they are good at, and that's fishing. Finding the

795
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:55,159
higher fish concentrations and much more than in the past.

796
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:58,440
Avoid what you don't want, to avoid a small fish

797
00:52:58,679 --> 00:53:05,199
and avoid the protected species, and of course record their catches.

798
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:09,280
That's the foundation of the whole thing. And then the

799
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,199
scientists will finally get good data and they will develop

800
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,400
apps based on that good information to help the fishers

801
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,920
with all. If you have all these catches of all

802
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:25,239
these vessels in real time, you can automatic You can

803
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:31,199
build algorithms and models who give you distribution maps which

804
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:34,239
are updated every day with the real time catch information

805
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,320
you get from the whole fleet. So with these distribution

806
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,039
maps maps, the fishes can actually plan their fishery in

807
00:53:42,079 --> 00:53:44,800
a much better way than they used to. They have

808
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,599
this information on where's the fish I want and where's

809
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:49,519
the fish I don't want, and where are the habitats

810
00:53:49,559 --> 00:53:53,519
that are vulnerable. If you have this information, you have

811
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:59,079
what you need for sustainable fishing. So the scientists will

812
00:53:59,119 --> 00:54:03,760
then also based on this good data, produce meta data,

813
00:54:04,119 --> 00:54:07,440
let's say, more general information on the state of the

814
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,360
fish stocks and the state of the ecosystem that they

815
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:14,079
can report to European Commission. So the European Commission we

816
00:54:14,199 --> 00:54:20,239
get a true estimation of the status of the ecosystem

817
00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:23,679
and the fish stocks, and with that much more correct

818
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:28,480
information they will be able to manage much better. And

819
00:54:28,519 --> 00:54:31,320
then there finally will be a good relationship with the

820
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,599
scientists and the fishers, and this will become a cooperation

821
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,400
that is very valuable. So that I think that that's

822
00:54:37,639 --> 00:54:42,320
in a nutshell, the system, how we think it can work.

823
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,800
Of course, should you believe me, well not, you should

824
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:50,840
not believe me. And do I believe myself, well, I

825
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,480
do have doubts. I'm not sure if all this will work.

826
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,119
I'm not sure actually how all this should work. I

827
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:01,119
mean in terms of models and and algorithms and so

828
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,719
these are complex things. But we are quite confident that

829
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,840
we have reached in Belgium now a level that is

830
00:55:10,039 --> 00:55:12,679
much better than we see in our neighboring countries, a

831
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,159
level of data collection and cooperation. So we do believe

832
00:55:16,199 --> 00:55:20,199
that this is this way forward has a lot of potential.

833
00:55:20,639 --> 00:55:25,760
Now the thing is, before I can convince you, I

834
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,000
will have to show you. Now, before I have to

835
00:55:28,119 --> 00:55:30,760
I can show you, I will be able. I should

836
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,280
be able to do an experiment. So that experiment could be,

837
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,719
for example, take the North Sea and let's say, okay,

838
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:43,079
for that North Sea. We will put the common Fisheries

839
00:55:43,199 --> 00:55:47,320
policy completely aside and replace it with something completely new,

840
00:55:48,039 --> 00:55:51,880
and let that for the next decade be an experiment

841
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,639
in the North Sea. So I can demonstrate you that

842
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,840
it works or it fails, and you can say, well,

843
00:55:59,039 --> 00:56:02,039
and that's the this ison my get. Well, if it fails,

844
00:56:02,079 --> 00:56:06,360
it's a drama. No, it's a real drama. Well, I

845
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,480
would say the system today as it is working, is failing.

846
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:14,840
It is failing if you look at all the problems

847
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,480
we have in fisheries, and if you look at how

848
00:56:17,519 --> 00:56:21,199
desperate many fishers are. I mean a fishing industry, fishers

849
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,760
who during the last centuries have overcome so many crises.

850
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:30,320
These are very dynamic people and very resilient people who

851
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,800
are today saying, well, if I get the opportunity, I

852
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,239
get out of the business. It's all too much for me.

853
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:40,880
I just can't fish anymore. So let me do the experiment,

854
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,519
because what we see today is not pretty.

855
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:49,159
Speaker 1: You knows, when you keep to the point where he says, okay,

856
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:54,360
well it work. No, you know you were saying that, yeah,

857
00:56:55,159 --> 00:56:58,519
that you don't know. But what came to my main

858
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,000
when you said there's an old saying that you hear

859
00:57:02,119 --> 00:57:05,760
a lot. Where there's a will, there's a way.

860
00:57:06,519 --> 00:57:10,519
Speaker 2: M hm. True, And I think.

861
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: It's a world to drive it. What would be.

862
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: If you have a group of people who really see

863
00:57:19,519 --> 00:57:22,239
what's going on today and say we need to go

864
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,679
to a better system, and you see the potential of

865
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,400
the data we have, and you see the potential of

866
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,280
the cooperation. Well, I think if you have people who

867
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,719
believe in it, I think we can reach it. I mean,

868
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,840
let me give an example. It's a very different world,

869
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:47,239
but the war in Ukraine. I mean four years ago,

870
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:50,559
everybody thought that's the end of Ukraine. And this has

871
00:57:50,599 --> 00:57:53,519
been so for a few years now. The last six

872
00:57:53,559 --> 00:57:57,639
months you see that this drone technology has developed so

873
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,000
much that Ukraine is actually on the winning hand. Nobody

874
00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:06,079
would have believed it, Nobody would have given the Ukrainians

875
00:58:06,119 --> 00:58:09,880
a chance a few years ago. But the Ukrainians were

876
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,079
forced and pushed just for the sheer survival to come

877
00:58:14,159 --> 00:58:19,599
up with alternative ways of waging war, and they developed

878
00:58:19,599 --> 00:58:23,440
the technology so far that this underdog is now on top.

879
00:58:24,039 --> 00:58:26,719
I mean, as you say, where there's a will, there's

880
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,039
a way, and I think it's the same here. I

881
00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:34,360
think if you look at the basics in our new

882
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,159
approach and you look at the value in that I

883
00:58:38,159 --> 00:58:41,760
mean good data, cooperation, trust, and so whether they have

884
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,239
these things which are lacking today. If you have these things,

885
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:47,760
I think there's a very good chance that we can

886
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,440
come to a much better system than we have today.

887
00:58:51,519 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: And could use almost the pressure's rule change and every

888
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:02,000
vessel becomes a scient thick observation platform.

889
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the thing. It's an automatic system. That's

890
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,760
the good thing. You can collect the information from the

891
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,920
fisheries catch, which is valuable for the fisheries, but which

892
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:20,480
is also valuable for other parties who are dealing with

893
00:59:20,719 --> 00:59:23,960
the marine ecosystem, who are dealing with climate change, who

894
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:28,320
are dealing with weather. There's a lot of information that

895
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,760
you can collect on a fishing vessel that is valuable

896
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,559
for many parties. For example, you can put a temperate

897
00:59:35,639 --> 00:59:39,719
sensor temperature sensor on a troll, which means that every

898
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,440
hole the temperature sensor goes from the top to the bottom,

899
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,639
so you get this temperature profile, which seems to be

900
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:53,440
very interesting for climate scientists and weather scientists. If you

901
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,039
do that on board of if you do that in

902
00:59:56,079 --> 00:59:58,320
a fishing fleet. You have all these different tune it's

903
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,559
fishing in all these different places, and you get all

904
01:00:00,559 --> 01:00:04,360
these temperate temperature profiles, which today you almost don't have

905
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,320
just on a few fixed points you have then, so

906
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,480
this is very valuable. We are also, for example, developing

907
01:00:12,559 --> 01:00:16,599
a DNA sampler, so EDNA, I don't know if you

908
01:00:16,679 --> 01:00:20,320
know it, environmental DNA. Every fish that swims in the

909
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,280
sea is behind a little bit of DNA. If you

910
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:28,599
take a liter or a gallon of seawater, there's a

911
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:31,000
lot of DNA in there. If you extract the DNA,

912
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,199
you can determine the species that have been swimming around.

913
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,559
So you based on that DNA in the water, you

914
01:00:37,559 --> 01:00:41,800
get an impression of the numbers of fish pieces around

915
01:00:42,039 --> 01:00:45,440
and also some indication on the quantity of fish. So

916
01:00:45,599 --> 01:00:49,079
this EDNA sample is already operational on board of one

917
01:00:49,119 --> 01:00:53,039
of our fishing vessels, gives us new information that is

918
01:00:53,079 --> 01:00:56,639
today not available, but that we can just fit into

919
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,440
that data collection system on board of the fishing vessel,

920
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,199
again in an automated way. So you can actually make

921
01:01:04,239 --> 01:01:08,639
of a fishing vessel a data collection platform that is

922
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,639
valuable for many parties.

923
01:01:13,119 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 1: And what role would that play investries management.

924
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 2: I think the main thing is that fisheries managers can

925
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:29,960
get a much better perception of the reality with that.

926
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:37,719
I think these are reliable data, high resolution data, high

927
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,760
quality and real time compared to what we have today

928
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,239
is low resolution, low quality, a very slow I mean

929
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,440
it takes months before lockbook data get in our database

930
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,480
with the changes feel So for managers, I think it's

931
01:01:54,519 --> 01:01:58,199
mainly about reliable information on the state of the fish

932
01:01:58,239 --> 01:02:02,119
stocks and of the ecosystem.

933
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 1: Why specially is mortality the only metric that really matters.

934
01:02:10,199 --> 01:02:14,039
Speaker 2: Because what you need to know to manage fish stocks

935
01:02:14,159 --> 01:02:18,920
is how quickly they grow and how quickly they die

936
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:23,239
or how many die. Once you know, once you have

937
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:29,880
the catches, and you know what the fishing mortality is,

938
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,599
that it's induced by the fishing fleet, you know what

939
01:02:34,679 --> 01:02:37,440
effect it will have on the fish stock. And by

940
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,519
collecting this catch information of all these fishing vessels over

941
01:02:42,599 --> 01:02:45,800
a wide area, you also get a pretty good idea

942
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:50,000
on natural mortality. So you get a very good information

943
01:02:50,079 --> 01:02:54,079
on fishing mortality by each individual fishing vessel, and by

944
01:02:54,119 --> 01:02:56,880
combining all these data you get a pretty good idea

945
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:03,159
on natural mortality. So critical factor in stock assessment, natural

946
01:03:03,199 --> 01:03:07,559
mortality or mortality in general. You will now finally have

947
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:13,000
much more accurate information. And if you have that, you

948
01:03:13,079 --> 01:03:15,440
have enough to follow up the fish stocks and you

949
01:03:15,519 --> 01:03:19,199
have enough to manage because if you will see how

950
01:03:19,239 --> 01:03:22,559
this changes through time, and if it goes in the

951
01:03:22,599 --> 01:03:25,880
wrong direction, well, as a manager you can say, well,

952
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,239
let's use this simple means days at sea to limit

953
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:30,320
where it's necessary.

954
01:03:33,039 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: I have to say, hands that I admire and appreciate

955
01:03:38,239 --> 01:03:43,960
the passion you have for it. But that's what you

956
01:03:44,039 --> 01:03:51,360
mentioned and the system you're talking about, and I believe

957
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,000
that it can work. It comes out a cross load

958
01:03:55,079 --> 01:03:56,760
and clear respect.

959
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:00,239
Speaker 2: You for that. Thank you very much, Thank you very

960
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,119
much for the appreciation. I have to say, I'm very

961
01:04:04,159 --> 01:04:08,840
happy I can bring my story here. I really hope

962
01:04:09,159 --> 01:04:14,119
that we can do something together. I mean you and

963
01:04:14,159 --> 01:04:18,679
me this podcast, but I mean the British and Europeans.

964
01:04:19,119 --> 01:04:21,920
I think, well, the sea separates us, but I think

965
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,159
we belong together. And I think when it comes to

966
01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:31,360
managing fisheries and anything that happens in the sea, it

967
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,239
makes much more sense to do it together than to

968
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:37,920
draw this imaginary line halfway in the North Sea that.

969
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 1: Separates us at hunt when you say that I couldn't.

970
01:04:43,679 --> 01:04:46,239
You don't get me wrong. I'm not pulling yep on that.

971
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,719
I'm going to give you the measure that I agree

972
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:54,239
with you because we've already had a chat about how

973
01:04:54,800 --> 01:05:01,719
you remember Jack Roberts and obviously you've worked together, you know,

974
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:06,599
So there's nobodriers there. I was talking to one of

975
01:05:06,639 --> 01:05:11,159
our really successful farst young fisherman and there's not too

976
01:05:11,239 --> 01:05:16,480
many unfortunately around now, but he was fishing down in

977
01:05:16,519 --> 01:05:19,880
the Southern north Sea and he was talking about how

978
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:24,440
well he got on with some of the dutch Men

979
01:05:24,639 --> 01:05:28,920
and probably Belgiums. He was in the Southern north Sea

980
01:05:29,199 --> 01:05:31,719
and he says he was getting on really well with

981
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:38,119
them and they were honest with their patch theaters and

982
01:05:38,599 --> 01:05:41,800
things like that. So can we not see what Goodoni

983
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:50,199
or Siatists talk together, pressures talk together. That's when it finished,

984
01:05:50,199 --> 01:05:51,760
that's when it starts and ends.

985
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 2: That's true. Actually I call it in my when I

986
01:05:56,320 --> 01:06:00,320
gave a presentation, I call it social innovation. But this

987
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,679
is just expensive words of people just talking to each other.

988
01:06:04,119 --> 01:06:07,039
There's so much value in talking to each other. Let

989
01:06:07,119 --> 01:06:11,159
me give you an Examplengos the green people that say,

990
01:06:11,719 --> 01:06:15,400
twenty years ago it was impossible to have one of

991
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,960
the fisher's representatives and people of the NGOs together at

992
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:23,280
one table. But then fifteen years ago we started with

993
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:27,719
this cooperation and we involved the NGOs, and in the

994
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:31,760
beginning it was a bit awkward when these people started talking,

995
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:37,079
but very quickly they started exchanging information and talking about

996
01:06:37,079 --> 01:06:41,159
their problems from both sides, and after very short time,

997
01:06:41,559 --> 01:06:44,719
the people of the NGOs and the fishers, they just

998
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:48,000
get along very well. So Pier old.

999
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:55,239
Speaker 1: People, Yeah, yeah, and it can stock assessment become real Dame.

1000
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:01,119
Speaker 2: I definitely think it can, and not only it can,

1001
01:07:01,199 --> 01:07:05,800
but I think it should. I mean as soon as

1002
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:10,960
you have cameras on board, and this technology is underdevelopment,

1003
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,480
but it's already quite far. When you have cameras on

1004
01:07:14,519 --> 01:07:18,639
board and you have a data collection system that we

1005
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,280
for the moment have fully operational on most of our vessels,

1006
01:07:23,719 --> 01:07:26,480
you have the foundation for a real time stock assessment

1007
01:07:26,559 --> 01:07:30,599
because you will have every fishing hole. As soon as

1008
01:07:30,599 --> 01:07:34,639
the catch is processed, the information goes to the database,

1009
01:07:35,159 --> 01:07:37,679
goes into a model together with all the information of

1010
01:07:37,719 --> 01:07:41,280
all the other fishing vessels, and you get a constant

1011
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,480
update of the fish distribution and fish densities and so.

1012
01:07:46,039 --> 01:07:49,320
And that is the basis for real time stock assessment

1013
01:07:49,599 --> 01:07:54,119
and real time management because this is the goal. You

1014
01:07:54,239 --> 01:07:59,480
need real time management when huge amounts of octopus enter

1015
01:07:59,559 --> 01:08:04,280
the Western English channel in certain places. But it's interesting

1016
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:08,039
to know today that this is happening. I mean the

1017
01:08:08,079 --> 01:08:12,639
system today between the first data collection and the actual

1018
01:08:13,079 --> 01:08:17,520
quota and the advice is something like almost two years.

1019
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,640
Well that's not quick enough now to see all these

1020
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:27,039
sudden changes. We have to go to real time stock assessment, yeah,

1021
01:08:27,159 --> 01:08:29,000
or a combination of the two. I mean, I'm not

1022
01:08:29,119 --> 01:08:32,239
excluding the one. I think we probably need to to.

1023
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:34,920
I mean, we have to feed the old system with

1024
01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:39,319
better data so it performs better. But we need quick

1025
01:08:39,359 --> 01:08:43,479
ways to assess the system in order to have quick

1026
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:44,760
management measures.

1027
01:08:46,039 --> 01:08:50,600
Speaker 1: And would you say we will get Do we still

1028
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:59,640
need research vessels under see inspections becoming obsolete or would

1029
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:00,000
they big?

1030
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:07,239
Speaker 2: I think research vessels we will probably still need for

1031
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:11,479
the more fundamental research, but I would not use them

1032
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,640
for the let's say, the operational research like surveys and

1033
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:22,079
so on. I think it's it's much more efficient to

1034
01:09:22,239 --> 01:09:24,960
use the fishing flee to do that, it will have

1035
01:09:25,039 --> 01:09:27,600
its own challenges. I won't say it will just be

1036
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:33,800
very easy, because there's differences between vessels, so a catch

1037
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,520
of one vessel means something different than a catch of

1038
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:39,560
another vessel. And then then you have other fishing methods.

1039
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,560
A catch of anglers means something different than a catch

1040
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:47,359
of a palgic troll. So I mean there's challenges there

1041
01:09:47,359 --> 01:09:51,359
as well, but I think there's much more value there

1042
01:09:51,359 --> 01:09:54,039
and I think we can overcome the challenges. So research

1043
01:09:54,119 --> 01:10:01,560
vessels for that probably obsolete inspections. I think the inspections

1044
01:10:02,079 --> 01:10:04,800
can be much less. I mean all the inspections on

1045
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:08,840
technical measures are not needed anymore. So meash sizes selective

1046
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:11,279
panels and so you don't have to check it anymore

1047
01:10:11,319 --> 01:10:15,119
because it's free choice for the fissure. What we'll probably

1048
01:10:15,119 --> 01:10:18,880
need inspection is the functioning of the camera, but a

1049
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,319
lot of that can be done the remote. And then

1050
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:26,319
what catch is actually in the hull of the vessel,

1051
01:10:27,319 --> 01:10:32,880
and that is probably I think that we'll need some

1052
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:38,439
kind of control how that should look like. I think

1053
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:45,439
inspection should also undergo a paradigm change, because now the

1054
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:50,560
fishers and inspectors are against standing against each other. No,

1055
01:10:51,720 --> 01:10:56,800
I think we know we need social scientists or people

1056
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,439
with social experience from other sectors to have a look

1057
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:06,279
at that. But I think inspectors should probably be involved

1058
01:11:06,319 --> 01:11:11,640
more in a cooperative way and in a way to

1059
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:18,479
collect information. I mean, the way we do it. We

1060
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,880
know where the bad guys are in our fisher we

1061
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,800
know what's going on, we know what kind of road

1062
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:28,720
is going on, we know how people fiddle around with

1063
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:34,119
fishing gear. Why, because we have this social interaction, We

1064
01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:38,359
talk to each other and there is social control within

1065
01:11:38,399 --> 01:11:40,880
the fishing industry. Fishers know from each other who is

1066
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,560
doing the bad thing, and this information is shared. So

1067
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,560
I think an inspector should also be more involved in

1068
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:52,039
the fishery like that, and where social control becomes more important,

1069
01:11:52,039 --> 01:11:57,760
and where the good guys who meanwhile for sustainable fishing

1070
01:11:58,079 --> 01:12:01,960
work together amongst them cells and with the scientists and

1071
01:12:02,039 --> 01:12:06,560
with the inspectors to actually push the bad guys to

1072
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:11,000
behave better, because it is in the interest of everybody

1073
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:15,880
for fishers who actually behave in a sustainable way, and

1074
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:20,880
the bad guys just ruined it for everybody. So I mean,

1075
01:12:20,960 --> 01:12:24,840
it's a very different way of dealing with each other.

1076
01:12:26,199 --> 01:12:29,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's put more trust than each other.

1077
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, so much more fun. I mean, if you get along. Now,

1078
01:12:35,079 --> 01:12:37,960
if an inspector goes on board of a fishing vessel

1079
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,359
and he has to be guided with policemen with machine guns,

1080
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,079
I don't know if this inspector has a fun job now,

1081
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:49,720
But if an inspector can go on board in a

1082
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:54,119
very different atmosphere, well maybe this job can become fun

1083
01:12:54,159 --> 01:12:54,600
as well.

1084
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: Can push in fleets become the world world's largest ecosystem monitoring.

1085
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:09,039
Speaker 2: Network, definitely, definitely, I'm sure it can. Yeah, because they

1086
01:13:09,079 --> 01:13:13,800
are indeed active over the whole world, and you can

1087
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,600
fill them up with sensors, any sensor you want, and

1088
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,520
you can put it at the surface, and you can

1089
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:24,760
put it on the fishing gear so it reaches the seafloor. Yeah.

1090
01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:29,119
And if fishers cooperate in that and also give a

1091
01:13:29,119 --> 01:13:32,720
hand in maintaining the system. I mean, a fisher who

1092
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:39,039
has has his main commercial activity fishing, but has to

1093
01:13:39,199 --> 01:13:43,319
work in the system of data collection and does not

1094
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:46,279
have to spend time anymore on all the administration and

1095
01:13:46,319 --> 01:13:49,399
the complexity and so on, well, he can spare some

1096
01:13:49,479 --> 01:13:53,079
of his time in making all these sensors work, so

1097
01:13:53,159 --> 01:13:58,119
you don't need expensive maintenance. I mean the fisher himself

1098
01:13:58,159 --> 01:14:01,079
can play an important role in maintenance of cameras and

1099
01:14:01,159 --> 01:14:03,760
maintenance of sensors that but are put on fishing gear.

1100
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:08,640
So you get a cheap system with very cheap maintenance

1101
01:14:09,279 --> 01:14:14,199
to actually observe the marine ecosystem as a whole.

1102
01:14:16,239 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and who we want specialize data.

1103
01:14:22,359 --> 01:14:25,600
Speaker 2: Well in our system today is the fisher who owns

1104
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:29,680
the data. So we have no rights regarding the data.

1105
01:14:30,199 --> 01:14:34,760
Of course, if you want to enter the system that

1106
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,760
we are suggesting, the basis of the system is good data.

1107
01:14:39,199 --> 01:14:44,960
So if you voluntarily join the system, you will voluntarily

1108
01:14:45,319 --> 01:14:48,159
provide me with your data. If you don't want to

1109
01:14:48,199 --> 01:14:51,640
do that, find for me, but then you will be

1110
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,840
part of the common Fisheries policy as it is today,

1111
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:57,560
with all the control and enforcements that comes with it.

1112
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:01,039
But you have the choice. We will never force any

1113
01:15:01,039 --> 01:15:04,079
fisher to join our system, but we have seen that

1114
01:15:04,159 --> 01:15:06,039
the majority has done it voluntarily.

1115
01:15:07,279 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, And what are the risks of an observation

1116
01:15:12,319 --> 01:15:16,279
based management system?

1117
01:15:16,359 --> 01:15:21,239
Speaker 2: M hm? The risks? I think we will probably find

1118
01:15:21,239 --> 01:15:25,359
out the risks when we are trying it out, But

1119
01:15:26,199 --> 01:15:31,039
I think the risks is well, the questions I have

1120
01:15:31,239 --> 01:15:37,279
is will we find ways and models who are actually

1121
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:42,000
clever enough and quick enough to process all the information

1122
01:15:42,119 --> 01:15:45,479
we will be getting. That's one thing. Another risk is

1123
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:51,680
well compliance, will fishures maybe find ways around our camera

1124
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:57,439
system to avoid the quota they are for facing. I

1125
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:01,960
think these are the two main, main, main things for me,

1126
01:16:02,119 --> 01:16:03,560
main risks.

1127
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 1: When I say this, it's just my own thoughts myself,

1128
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,119
and I don't want to put you in a position hands.

1129
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:15,479
But one of the problems the round about what we've

1130
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:20,359
been discussing, and it comes from, you know, a point

1131
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,479
a friend of mine, an Irish man, made to me

1132
01:16:25,039 --> 01:16:32,399
just recently where he felt that the there have a real, real,

1133
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:37,039
real issue on the macro code in Ireland. And he

1134
01:16:37,159 --> 01:16:41,359
says that the problem where they feel the difficult position,

1135
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:46,439
the fuel they're in. He says, it's not Brussels. Brussels

1136
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:50,600
is not the problem. It's not coming from Brussels. He said,

1137
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,600
the problem is Dutch millionaires.

1138
01:16:57,199 --> 01:17:02,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, well now you're talking about it magic freed of course, and.

1139
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:09,319
Speaker 1: But the system is just shocking I feel anyway, and

1140
01:17:09,399 --> 01:17:12,600
I'm not hard left in anyway, I'm not at all

1141
01:17:13,079 --> 01:17:17,239
the conservative all my life. But you don't feel the

1142
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:23,079
country should own the quota and it's allocuted accordingly.

1143
01:17:24,159 --> 01:17:27,159
Speaker 2: So you're saying that it's the country who should own

1144
01:17:27,159 --> 01:17:28,479
the quota. Is that what you're saying?

1145
01:17:29,279 --> 01:17:34,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, rather than because another thing that a diientist, especially

1146
01:17:34,600 --> 01:17:41,520
scientist from Aberdeen Marine Lab, he once quoted he is

1147
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:46,560
the biggest mistake they ever made here was putting a

1148
01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:50,880
value on quota and license, because he says, now the

1149
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:55,640
chances of a young guy leaving school his ambition is

1150
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,920
to be a fresherman, going own, to be a skipper

1151
01:17:59,159 --> 01:18:03,760
and eventually with his own board. He says, that's impossible

1152
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:04,479
to do now.

1153
01:18:05,319 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, I see what you mean. Yes, I

1154
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:14,840
think I agree, But I think I have been pro

1155
01:18:15,199 --> 01:18:19,520
something in between, because we now have that system where

1156
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:24,600
the Belgium state owns the quota still and is also

1157
01:18:24,760 --> 01:18:30,039
strongly involved in dividing the quota amongst the different companies.

1158
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:36,560
I think the advantage of that is that indeed you

1159
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:40,680
can give the opportunity to young fishers to start. You

1160
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,279
you can actually steer your fishery a little bit so

1161
01:18:43,319 --> 01:18:47,359
that it's done in a social way. The disadvantage is

1162
01:18:47,399 --> 01:18:53,199
that with the complexity of mixed fisheries and all these

1163
01:18:53,199 --> 01:18:56,720
different quota and the chokes pieces issue, and so you

1164
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:01,560
need a system where you can easily and weekly distribute

1165
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,279
quota to where they are needed. So you need some

1166
01:19:04,399 --> 01:19:09,800
kind of exchange or rental system. But you can perfectly

1167
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:13,640
do that while the quota are still in the hands

1168
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:19,640
of the state. Every year, Belgium could distribute the quota

1169
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,279
but still have some hand on how it is done.

1170
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:27,920
Speaker 1: Well, my reponts to that hands is well done Belgium,

1171
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:34,319
to thank you. That seriously mean that how much uncertainty

1172
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:40,600
is an acceptable in a real tame management system.

1173
01:19:41,399 --> 01:19:48,079
Speaker 2: Well, I think we can allow ourselves quite some uncertainty

1174
01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:54,960
because well we know that the cameras will increase the

1175
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:59,279
information hugely, so we will make a big step forward

1176
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:03,840
if we start using this cameras to analyze the full catch,

1177
01:20:05,159 --> 01:20:08,680
so it will be much better than today. But to

1178
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:14,319
have a perfect catch re registration of all holes is

1179
01:20:14,479 --> 01:20:18,439
just not possible, so we will have to accept some

1180
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:23,279
sort of error and uncertainty. But then I think the

1181
01:20:23,319 --> 01:20:28,359
information that we will have will be probably more than

1182
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:33,279
enough than needed to actually know where the fishes and

1183
01:20:33,319 --> 01:20:34,760
how they evolved through time.

1184
01:20:36,159 --> 01:20:40,600
Speaker 1: But I just in my own head, which I don't

1185
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:43,680
think I'm missing anything. But from what you said about

1186
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:50,239
the other romo you're proposing the cameras. For sure don't

1187
01:20:50,359 --> 01:20:54,680
like cameras. But the big bat for me han't listening

1188
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:58,680
to you. It is there's so many other changes that

1189
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:02,760
it'll it will just be part of a whole package

1190
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:04,439
and will be acceptable.

1191
01:21:05,399 --> 01:21:09,319
Speaker 2: I think the reason fishers don't like cameras is because

1192
01:21:09,359 --> 01:21:13,560
you have a complex set of rules that are difficult

1193
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:19,640
to comply with. Now, if it's difficult to comply with, well,

1194
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:22,960
quite often you will have a situation that you don't comply.

1195
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:29,000
And if then each time a camera will register or

1196
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:35,359
what's the word camera will actually show to the manager

1197
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,600
that you did not comply with the rules, well, a

1198
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:41,960
fine is the next thing that will come, or you

1199
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:44,039
will vessel will be put on the chain on the

1200
01:21:44,119 --> 01:21:47,680
key side, it will stop fishing. So there's the fishes

1201
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:54,880
are scared to just provide the managers with their true

1202
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:59,039
information on their catches. But when you change the system

1203
01:21:59,079 --> 01:22:02,600
and it's not so much based anymore on control and enforcement,

1204
01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:06,159
that changes the whole attitude of fishes because they don't

1205
01:22:06,199 --> 01:22:08,520
have to be afraid to be put out of business

1206
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:12,640
if they just don't follow the rules for a few times. No,

1207
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,680
it's a much more flexible system.

1208
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:21,399
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and can atually signed as realistically processed millions

1209
01:22:21,439 --> 01:22:23,119
of observations per day.

1210
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:30,600
Speaker 2: Well, I think they can, but the amount of information

1211
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:37,840
will not be so huge because we are not transferring

1212
01:22:38,119 --> 01:22:41,279
to the cloud the images. So what we will do

1213
01:22:41,399 --> 01:22:46,079
for each all we will analyze the catch and for

1214
01:22:46,119 --> 01:22:49,239
each of the species we will have a linked distribution.

1215
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:54,119
So for each fish this means maybe I don't know,

1216
01:22:54,800 --> 01:23:00,600
thirty numbers times I don't know, twenty species is six

1217
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:05,000
hundred numbers for a whole. I mean that's tiny, tiny,

1218
01:23:06,039 --> 01:23:09,680
So for each all we get a tiny amount of information. Okay,

1219
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:12,359
if I have to do that for a few thousand vessels,

1220
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:17,079
still compared to the huge amount of data we are

1221
01:23:17,279 --> 01:23:20,800
able to process these days, well, this information coming from

1222
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:23,560
the fish fishing fleet will still be tiny. I mean

1223
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:26,880
what I think the information the amount of data you

1224
01:23:27,039 --> 01:23:32,319
use if you use Facebook for an hour is probably

1225
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:36,720
much more than the amount of data that you would

1226
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:42,840
produce with the fishing fleet in the North Sea. So no,

1227
01:23:43,039 --> 01:23:46,079
it's just link distributions, it's just numbers.

1228
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:51,399
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, no, that's excellent. And where can our

1229
01:23:51,399 --> 01:23:55,560
listeners follow you online? Active on social media?

1230
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:02,159
Speaker 2: I'm trying to be a I'm sixty one years old.

1231
01:24:02,159 --> 01:24:07,279
Now I'm not so active on social media, but the

1232
01:24:07,399 --> 01:24:10,319
last six months I have been more active on LinkedIn,

1233
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:14,720
mainly to spread my message. So I force myself to

1234
01:24:16,199 --> 01:24:19,800
be present, and I have to say I kind of

1235
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:21,880
like it. It's nice you get somebody, get to know

1236
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:25,159
people with different ideas or the same ideas, and it

1237
01:24:25,239 --> 01:24:30,359
gives discussions and discussions bring wisdom because I don't claim

1238
01:24:30,399 --> 01:24:34,680
to hold the wisdom and the truth in myself. I

1239
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:39,840
know I make errors and if people discuss with me

1240
01:24:40,199 --> 01:24:42,840
and they will point me at weaknesses in my story,

1241
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:45,880
and that's for me very interesting because then I can

1242
01:24:46,239 --> 01:24:49,520
will improve my ideas. So no, I'm very happy to

1243
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:51,760
be there for the moment there, Thank.

1244
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:55,279
Speaker 1: You, Thank you. I would just bebe point that you

1245
01:24:57,000 --> 01:25:02,079
you to the wrong person that you refer you refer

1246
01:25:02,239 --> 01:25:06,680
to being sixty one to somebody who's going to say

1247
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:11,439
to you, oh, is that all You're that young?

1248
01:25:15,239 --> 01:25:18,279
Speaker 2: When I have a few black hairs in my mustache,

1249
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:21,720
you're probably all white very much.

1250
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 1: So it's a long time. I would like to thank you.

1251
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:27,840
The only another point I was going to make because

1252
01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:32,600
we include Hans was as I mentioned earlier, and I

1253
01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:38,399
do mean it, well done Belgium, and but I have

1254
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:45,960
to be upfront. That only goes to the point we fishers,

1255
01:25:46,119 --> 01:25:51,039
I won't be most of still want Scotland to beat

1256
01:25:51,079 --> 01:25:52,960
Belgium when we're playing football.

1257
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:59,760
Speaker 2: Well, we had better times. I mean we had to

1258
01:26:00,119 --> 01:26:04,039
ross during the three last matches and only the last

1259
01:26:04,079 --> 01:26:08,159
one we won, and so yeah we're going through, but

1260
01:26:08,279 --> 01:26:11,439
we were a bit nervous, you know, we had better times.

1261
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:15,119
Speaker 1: Well, well you're still there, so you're doing better than us.

1262
01:26:16,319 --> 01:26:20,079
Speaker 2: That's true, that's true. Well next time better. I wish

1263
01:26:20,119 --> 01:26:21,640
the Scotch the Scott's sold the luck.

1264
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:31,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, we emptied Boston as far as alcohol is okay,

1265
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:35,119
Well no, thank you, thank you so much. I really

1266
01:26:35,119 --> 01:26:40,319
appreciate your time and credit to it, your looking at

1267
01:26:40,399 --> 01:26:44,720
doing and I all the very best was that. I

1268
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:48,520
really do hope you have success. That's fantastic, forward thinking

1269
01:26:49,039 --> 01:26:50,439
and definitely the way to go.

1270
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:54,560
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. My pleasure and my greetings to

1271
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:58,800
the Scotch fishers and and all scottsmen and women.

1272
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:02,319
Speaker 1: Thank you all very much, thank you, same to to

1273
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:03,039
Belgiums

1274
01:27:16,279 --> 01:27:16,600
Speaker 2: MHM