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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 2: The story begins with Burt, a gentle, unassuming street person
Speaker 2: who mumbled to himself and talk to trees. He wasn't
Speaker 2: an alcoholic, but he hung out at a detox center
Speaker 2: in Sacramento, where a volunteer name Judy took an interest
Speaker 2: in him. Judy was overjoyed when she found a home
Speaker 2: for Bert with a silver haired grandmother, Dorothea Puente, who
Speaker 2: ran a tidy boarding house in a blue and wha Victorian.
Speaker 2: Little did Judy know that Puente, just one of the
Speaker 2: woman's many aliases, would soon become her obsession. By the
Speaker 2: end of the story, Bert has disappeared and the cops
Speaker 2: are digging up seven corpses from the backyard of the
Speaker 2: boarding house. Author Carla Norton, author of Perfect Victim skillfully
Speaker 2: unfolds the many layered character of this classic Arsenic and
Speaker 2: Old Lace style serial killer. At the pinnacle of her
Speaker 2: fame and glory, Dorothea was like a junkie with a
Speaker 2: philanthropic habit. Everyone dipped into her pot and benefited from
Speaker 2: her largesse. She was ultimately tried on nine counts of
Speaker 2: murder and sentence to death. The book that we're featured
Speaker 2: featuring this evening is Disturbed Ground, with my special guest
Speaker 2: journalist and author Carla and Norton. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 2: and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Carla Norton, Thank.
Speaker 6: You, Dan, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Finally we have you on and we're going
Speaker 2: to be able to talk about two really really good books,
Speaker 2: Disturbed Ground, and then later we'll talk about your classic
Speaker 2: best selling book, Perfect Victim. It's an amazing book that
Speaker 2: I just discovered this year, and we'll be able to
Speaker 2: share a little bit about that story and that incredible
Speaker 2: book a little bit later. Now, basically, one of the
Speaker 2: questions I asked often before, without giving any really any
Speaker 2: of this story away, tell us why you decided to
Speaker 2: write about this story, why this story was compelling to you.
Speaker 6: I think when I first heard about it, it was
Speaker 6: one of those stories that you just don't believe. Because
Speaker 6: here it was the capital of California, Sacramento, right downtown,
Speaker 6: in this charming, little, you know, Victorian house. They started
Speaker 6: digging up bodies, and when the story broke, Dorothea Pointe
Speaker 6: had fled town. They didn't know where she was, and
Speaker 6: they proceeded to unearth seven bodies from her boarding house garden.
Speaker 6: It was such a bizarre story that I know, I
Speaker 6: just couldn't get my head around it. And when I
Speaker 6: started looking into it, I began to understand kind of
Speaker 6: the the softer human element and how it was that
Speaker 6: this professional con who'd been getting waved with murder literally
Speaker 6: for years and years and years was finally caught. And
Speaker 6: I just thought, this is an amazing story. Somebody's going
Speaker 6: to write about it, and it could be me. So
Speaker 6: I just dove right in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you had great instincts too, in terms of
Speaker 2: the human side that you would be able to uncover
Speaker 2: and be basically convey in this book here and you
Speaker 2: and you paint, You paint a vivid portrayal of how
Speaker 2: this happened. First, of course, with Bert Montoya. Tell us
Speaker 2: about Bert Montoya. This is an incredible story and and
Speaker 2: and I like that you put it at the beginning
Speaker 2: of the book, and we really got to see who
Speaker 2: Bert Montoya is. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 2: Bert Montoya.
Speaker 6: Well, he was a very unlikely fellow to be staying
Speaker 6: in a detoc center. He clearly had mental problems and
Speaker 6: was a very gentle soul. He literally would give you
Speaker 6: the shirt off his back. He would help the maintenance guy,
Speaker 6: paid the tables. If he found some money, he would
Speaker 6: turn it in. He was just a very mild mannered fellow,
Speaker 6: but he had, you know issues. He would speak to
Speaker 6: the trees he thought there were spirits talking to him.
Speaker 6: He was He didn't really speak English very well. In fact,
Speaker 6: for years people didn't think he spoke English at all.
Speaker 6: But what was interesting about Bert is that Dorothea made
Speaker 6: a mistake in targeting him because most of the people
Speaker 6: that she took into her boarding house and then later
Speaker 6: killed were people that didn't have family checking on them.
Speaker 6: And even though Bert didn't have family, he did have
Speaker 6: a social worker, Judy Moyce, who was attached to him,
Speaker 6: and so Bert was they kind of a bad choice
Speaker 6: for a victim. But let me give you a lit
Speaker 6: bit of history first of all, because the thing about
Speaker 6: Doroth Thea is that she had been a con artist
Speaker 6: all her life, since a very young age. And I
Speaker 6: like to say if she had been bad smell and
Speaker 6: bearded and tattooed, she wouldn't have gotten away with this
Speaker 6: for so long. But she was a white haired lady
Speaker 6: who lied that she was old than she was. She
Speaker 6: told people she was seventy and without her teeth, with
Speaker 6: her pale, pale skin and her snowy white hair, she
Speaker 6: could look seventy, but in fact she was only fifty
Speaker 6: nine when she was arrested. And so she played the
Speaker 6: little old lady role, and no one would have suspected
Speaker 6: that she was preying upon these needy people. She would
Speaker 6: meet them at a bar and bite them into a
Speaker 6: boarding house, find out how much they were getting for
Speaker 6: their various social security, disability pension checks, whatever, and select
Speaker 6: her victims.
Speaker 2: Well, you say, how could she possibly do that? Though,
Speaker 2: unlike other people that have pulled this ruse before, taken
Speaker 2: men in and people that no one's checking on them,
Speaker 2: What was the treatment of the people before we get
Speaker 2: the berth especially but what was the treatment at this
Speaker 2: boarding house? What was the atmosphere that was there? For
Speaker 2: anybody that would have come by and spent a few hours,
Speaker 2: what would they have seen.
Speaker 6: Well, Dorothea was a wonderful chameleon, and she played the
Speaker 6: part extremely well of the most benevolent landlady you can imagine.
Speaker 6: She ran a tiptop ship. She cooked big meals, generous
Speaker 6: meals for all of her boarders.
Speaker 2: She liked.
Speaker 6: She liked the reputation of being a very generous person,
Speaker 6: and she would organ the calendar, make sure everybody was
Speaker 6: going to the doctor at the proper time, arrange for
Speaker 6: rides for them. And she also controlled all the medication
Speaker 6: in the household. And she controlled the mail so once
Speaker 6: somebody started getting their checks delivered to the house, she
Speaker 6: was the only one who could open the mailbox, and
Speaker 6: then she would have them sign over their checks to her,
Speaker 6: and ultimately, after they were deceased, she continued receiving their
Speaker 6: checks because she buried them in the yard, knew they
Speaker 6: were gone, and she would sign them herself over to her.
Speaker 6: She'd take them down to the corner to Joe's Corner Bar,
Speaker 6: where she was well known, and he would cast the
Speaker 6: checks at a bank and bring back thousands of dollars
Speaker 6: to her every month. She had a really a seamless
Speaker 6: con going and she went to church every Sunday. She
Speaker 6: was very generous again at the bar's local bars, she
Speaker 6: would sit at certain corner and chat up some elderly
Speaker 6: fellow who was in need of a place to live.
Speaker 6: And my gosh, she had a place in her boarding
Speaker 6: house that had just opened up, and wouldn't you like
Speaker 6: to come and see it? And it was, you know, clean,
Speaker 6: well run. There were no guns being pulled on anyone.
Speaker 6: It wasn't noisy. She made sure that people got up early.
Speaker 6: If you missed breakfast, then you didn't get to eat.
Speaker 6: So she would get up very early in the morning
Speaker 6: and make breakfast. Before that she would be gardening, and
Speaker 6: she did have a remarkably beautiful rose garden. We know
Speaker 6: now that it was a very well fertilized rose garden.
Speaker 3: But she.
Speaker 6: Ran things was amazing calm, and even when neighbors would
Speaker 6: complain about sometimes there would be an odor, she would
Speaker 6: complain about it too. I don't know where that's coming from.
Speaker 6: I think that's the neighbor over there. So she's kind
Speaker 6: of phenomenal that she was able to pull this off
Speaker 6: for so long. Even her name was a lie, Dorothy Applentte.
Speaker 6: She pretended that she was Mexican, that she was one
Speaker 6: of eleven children, that they called her the Gringa of
Speaker 6: the family, when in fact she was just you know,
Speaker 6: a Southern Californian orphan at a very young age. Dorothy
Speaker 6: Helen Gray was initially her name. So everything about her
Speaker 6: was a layer and another layer, and a layer on
Speaker 6: top of that of a false identity.
Speaker 2: Now part of the ruse is that she you said,
Speaker 2: she handled the medication, but she also tried to pass
Speaker 2: herself off as a doctor, as a retired nurse, as
Speaker 2: a retired doctor. What were some of the other aliases
Speaker 2: or did she just limit herself to medical and you know,
Speaker 2: false medical backgrounds.
Speaker 6: Well, this was what was so interesting about her is
Speaker 6: that she was able to read people. So if you
Speaker 6: were very bright, she wouldn't try to pretend that she
Speaker 6: was a doctor, or if she was going to be
Speaker 6: around you a long time, you know, she would read
Speaker 6: you and figure out what would work for you. She
Speaker 6: might say she was a medic when she was in
Speaker 6: the military. She once set next to a pharmaceutical salesman
Speaker 6: for an hour in a bar and talk to him
Speaker 6: about medications, and he convinced him she was a doctor.
Speaker 6: She would, you know, credit her lavish gifts on being
Speaker 6: a retired surgeon to some people. Years before that, she
Speaker 6: I think she was kind of a in the Hispanic community,
Speaker 6: had been known kind of as a healer, you know
Speaker 6: that if you had you know, the flu or toothache
Speaker 6: or something, Dorothea can fix you up. And she was
Speaker 6: known as La dac Tora. And in fact, she would
Speaker 6: host a table at the charity ball and at one
Speaker 6: point then Governor Jerry Brown, who is now again California's governor,
Speaker 6: recognized her and crossed the room to kiss her cheek
Speaker 6: and ask her to dance. Because she had such a
Speaker 6: reputation of being a very charitable individual within the community.
Speaker 6: So yeah, it's kind of phenomenal. She, like I say,
Speaker 6: she went to church regularly, but then she would go
Speaker 6: from the church almost directly to the bar. She also
Speaker 6: she didn't drive, and so she had a taxi driver
Speaker 6: that she often called, and the taxi driver would take
Speaker 6: her to the what do you call it, the hardware
Speaker 6: labur store gardening and she'd buy gardening surprise, you know,
Speaker 6: soil and lime and plants and all kinds of things
Speaker 6: for her garden. So she was busy. And she even
Speaker 6: the medications that she cashed or that she had subscript
Speaker 6: prescriptions for were under two different names, as well as
Speaker 6: the names of the various people that had lived in
Speaker 6: her house, so she was she had identification. I think
Speaker 6: they found driver's licenses in five different names for Dorothea
Speaker 6: after she was arrested. But in fact, her life started
Speaker 6: when she was very young, and I found that one
Speaker 6: of the most fascinating things about the trial. When she
Speaker 6: was a young teenager, she went to school in Napa
Speaker 6: for a short time. She was living in with an
Speaker 6: older brother, and she told the other kids that she
Speaker 6: was a Portuguese exchange student and so she had a
Speaker 6: little trouble with English, but that she was a math
Speaker 6: medical genius. And they were so fascinated by her that
Speaker 6: they wrote an article about her for the school newspaper.
Speaker 6: And when the administration read that, of course they were
Speaker 6: baffled because they knew she wasn't an exchange student. So
Speaker 6: these wild fabrications started when she was quite young.
Speaker 2: Did she have any criminal background, did she have any
Speaker 2: contact with psychiatrists or psychologists at that time of any detail.
Speaker 6: This is yeah, this is what's so interesting about Dorothea
Speaker 6: is that she actually has She had a long criminal
Speaker 6: background and apparently was a prostitute for at a young age,
Speaker 6: and then she actually had gone to prison, so she
Speaker 6: was an ex con when she was arrested. She shouldn't
Speaker 6: have been running a boarding house because she was prohibited
Speaker 6: by her parole from running a boarding house. She shouldn't
Speaker 6: have been administering medicaid to anyone because what she had
Speaker 6: done before was that she had passed her off herself
Speaker 6: off as a home healthcare nurse, and so then she
Speaker 6: would be taking care of someone who was sick and elderly,
Speaker 6: and she stole her jewelry, she stole her checks, and
Speaker 6: they testified against her. So then she learned that if
Speaker 6: you leave them alive, you're in danger of going to prison.
Speaker 6: Because during that same period of time, she actually committed
Speaker 6: her first murder. And this is the one that's the
Speaker 6: most interesting to me, because Ruth Monroe believe that Dorothy
Speaker 6: was her friend. The two of them went into business
Speaker 6: together and they were running a restaurant. Well, Ruth Monroe
Speaker 6: was the one that was putting up the money, and
Speaker 6: large amounts of cash were then disappearing, and Ruth Monroe
Speaker 6: had a family who would come and check on her.
Speaker 6: Ruth and dory Thea became roommates, and when Ruth fell ill,
Speaker 6: her family was very concerned about her, but Dorothea was
Speaker 6: taking care of her. She assured them that Ruth was
Speaker 6: going to be fine. She was taking care of her,
Speaker 6: and the children went home, and then Ruth died very
Speaker 6: early in the morning, I think at about five am,
Speaker 6: and Dorothea called an ambulance and said that her friend
Speaker 6: had had a heart attack. And when you have an older,
Speaker 6: overwelight woman living with another older woman, you don't imagine
Speaker 6: that it's a murder scene. And so they took her
Speaker 6: off and did the autopsy, found that it was not
Speaker 6: a heart attack, that she had died from a drug overdose,
Speaker 6: and of course by then there was no crime scene.
Speaker 6: This was two weeks later, I believe, and then you
Speaker 6: have two choices. It's either suicide or it's murder. So
Speaker 6: they decided it was suicide, and the family never accepted that.
Speaker 6: But at about that time Dorothea was arrested and put
Speaker 6: in prison. For drugging and robbing all other people who
Speaker 6: then testified against her. So she had a period in
Speaker 6: taught of time while she was in prisoned to think
Speaker 6: about her mistakes. And when she got out, that's when
Speaker 6: she started committing more murders. In fact, when she was tried,
Speaker 6: she was tried on nine murder counts, down on seven.
Speaker 6: There were the seven bodies found in the yard. But
Speaker 6: prior to that, there was Ruth Monroe, and then there
Speaker 6: was a charming older gentleman who wanted to marry her,
Speaker 6: who wrote to her while she was in prison, I'm sorry,
Speaker 6: did you.
Speaker 1: Have a question.
Speaker 2: So the question I did want to pose was when
Speaker 2: the police found when they did the autopsy, what drug
Speaker 2: was used to kill Ruth Monroe and what drug was
Speaker 2: then used in the when she drugged her other victims.
Speaker 6: Oh that's a very good question. Well, with ruthven Rowe,
Speaker 6: she used a ceedam menaphon, and not everyone realizes that
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Speaker 6: Is deadly when used in combination to access with alcohol,
Speaker 6: and it's it's rather prolonged death. But it affects you
Speaker 6: or I can't remember. I think it's your kidneys that's
Speaker 6: shut down. And so she basically poisoned her over a
Speaker 6: period of time, giving her cream dements to drink, along
Speaker 6: with high doses of tilineal and yeah and dorothea. Among
Speaker 6: her belonging. She had a guide to pharmaceuticals. But what
Speaker 6: was interesting because the seven people that were an earth
Speaker 6: from her yard, and let me talk about them for
Speaker 6: a while. She ran the s boarding house. She would
Speaker 6: meet someone, they would move in, she would take excellent
Speaker 6: care of them. Everyone would be so impressed, and then
Speaker 6: they would simply disappear. And a lot of these people
Speaker 6: were alcoholic, somewhat itinerate had very little, you know, in
Speaker 6: terms of means. They were retired, they didn't have jobs,
Speaker 6: so there was no one to miss them. They didn't
Speaker 6: have family, and if they disappeared, very few people came
Speaker 6: asking questions. And if they did well, people wandered off
Speaker 6: all the time. So, you know, she would say, I
Speaker 6: don't know where you know, Betty went. You know, she
Speaker 6: was here, and now she said she was going to
Speaker 6: up to Oregon. She'd just make something up and she
Speaker 6: would then give away their clothes to charity and bringing
Speaker 6: someone else well in the meantime. She so she was
Speaker 6: always kind of preparing for someone else to be brought
Speaker 6: into her lair. And what she did was so clever
Speaker 6: because she would have these workers come to the house.
Speaker 2: And one thing I found fascinating was the incredible charisma
Speaker 2: that she had and connections. Where did she get these
Speaker 2: workers from?
Speaker 6: Ironically, they were right out of prison. They were halfway
Speaker 6: house workers, you know, when they've been discharged and they're
Speaker 6: on parole. And with these people, she swore up a
Speaker 6: blue streak. I mean she she could. She was an
Speaker 6: ex gone. She knew how to talk to those people
Speaker 6: as well.
Speaker 2: She paid them and she told them so, and she
Speaker 2: told them that he told them that listen, I can
Speaker 2: empathize with you guys, because I did a stint in
Speaker 2: prison too.
Speaker 6: Mm hmm. Yeah. So it didn't matter who, you know,
Speaker 6: what rank someone was, she could she would persuade them
Speaker 6: that she was, you know, of had a lot in
Speaker 6: common with them. She would tell people that, you know,
Speaker 6: she was Hispanic if they were Hispanic. She always found
Speaker 6: some common ground and some way to some way to
Speaker 6: curry favor. But anyway, you were asking about their medications. Everyone.
Speaker 6: Every time someone came to her house, she basically collected
Speaker 6: their medicines from them, So even if they weren't around anymore,
Speaker 6: she would still have a supply. And it was very
Speaker 6: difficult during the trial for the prosecutor to prove that
Speaker 6: she had murdered these people because they were so decomposed.
Speaker 6: And that was a really key part of the trial.
Speaker 6: When you have ill people who have heart conditions and
Speaker 6: diabetes and are alcoholic and all you know, you name it.
Speaker 6: They had all kinds of severe medical conditions, how do
Speaker 6: you prove that they were murdered. Well, it was very
Speaker 6: interesting and I actually have a graph in the back
Speaker 6: of the book that one of the drugs that Dorothea
Speaker 6: had two prescriptions for and a big stash of was dalmain,
Speaker 6: and dalmaine when it's administered very quickly metabolizes into a
Speaker 6: different chemical compound. So if someone has taken that within
Speaker 6: twenty four hours of death, there's a marker you can
Speaker 6: tell that they took it within twenty four hours of
Speaker 6: the time they were killed. And all of the bodies
Speaker 6: exhumed had some residue of dalmain in their system that
Speaker 6: proved that they've been administered that drug shortly before their death,
Speaker 6: whether or not they'd ever had a prescription.
Speaker 2: For delmain, right, right, Yeah, she knew her drugs.
Speaker 6: She knew her drugs, but she used a whole combination
Speaker 6: of things. And I believe that she also used alcohol.
Speaker 6: You know that she would mix things into an alcoholic
Speaker 6: beverage and say, drink this, it'll make you feel better.
Speaker 6: The prosecutor positive that once they were knocked out, that
Speaker 6: she may have been smothered them, and then she had
Speaker 6: to have had help to bury them in the yard.
Speaker 6: I believe, but she wasn't really in a position to
Speaker 6: say I didn't do it, but he helped me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now there's a good reason we've alluded to it
Speaker 2: that you include Bert so prominently in this book, and
Speaker 2: I'm really glad that you did, because sometimes just by
Speaker 2: virtue of accessibility, you don't really have access like you
Speaker 2: did with this person, with this gentleman. He's very important,
Speaker 2: obviously because it leads to the discovery of this little
Speaker 2: old grandmother, a woman who is connected all through town
Speaker 2: and is known as this great philanthropic, philanthropic nice lady.
Speaker 2: So tell us about Bert Montoya and get back to
Speaker 2: where Judy is in his life. Takes a liking to
Speaker 2: Bert and the incredible journey that he goes through and
Speaker 2: the great effort from this good Samaritan Judy, her and
Speaker 2: Beth and a couple other people. But tell us about
Speaker 2: that incredible journey of Bert from in this story.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm glad you asked about him, because Bert was
Speaker 6: unusual and like I say, and that he was not
Speaker 6: an alcoholic. But he was staying in a detox facility
Speaker 6: that was run by the Volunteers of America. No one
Speaker 6: just simply called it detox, but it was a big
Speaker 6: corrugated metal shed or warehouse almost with fluorescent lights that
Speaker 6: could sleep up to sixty men, and they just had
Speaker 6: vinyl mats on the floor, a big open room and
Speaker 6: run by good hearted people. And on Sundays they would
Speaker 6: take busloads of them to church and they had I
Speaker 6: believe they had coffee and you know, some minor breakfast
Speaker 6: in the morning. But most of the people then would
Speaker 6: go home. Bert was one of the few that would
Speaker 6: come back. Every night. He would do what they called
Speaker 6: the walk and he would walk from the Volunteers of
Speaker 6: America in the morning to a soup kitchen I think
Speaker 6: two miles away and he'd end up back at VOA's
Speaker 6: dtox again at night. And Judy moyce worked there. She
Speaker 6: started working there and her job was to get homeless
Speaker 6: people off the street. She would find people that maybe
Speaker 6: they were schizophrenic and they weren't taking their meds and
Speaker 6: they just needed some help to get back into some
Speaker 6: kind of more wholesome situation. But the problem with Bert
Speaker 6: was that he didn't have any ID and many people
Speaker 6: feared that he was illegal and that he would be deported.
Speaker 6: But he communicated to her that he was American, that
Speaker 6: he was born in Costa Rica, but he had immigrated,
Speaker 6: and so she set about trying to find his Social
Speaker 6: Security card and it took her months and months of
Speaker 6: letters and writing, and finally she did find his Social
Speaker 6: Security card and the reason that was important was that
Speaker 6: then he could get some benefits, and that meant he
Speaker 6: could move out of this very uncomfortable warehouse and into
Speaker 6: an actual home. And then she started searching around and
Speaker 6: Dorothea came with very high recommends. I mean there were
Speaker 6: not There aren't many people that take you know, homeless
Speaker 6: basically homeless mentally ill people. Bert was not an especially
Speaker 6: attractive man. He was unkempt, and Dorothea took him under
Speaker 6: her wing. She cleaned them up, she bought him clothes,
Speaker 6: he started becoming more verbal. She got him to take
Speaker 6: his medication, and one day Judy Moyce came over and
Speaker 6: she was astonished that he initiated a conversation with her
Speaker 6: and said, how are you doing? I heard you were sick,
Speaker 6: And that was so unlike him, because usually he was
Speaker 6: very shy and he would just kind of mumble and
Speaker 6: hang out in the background. He actually called dorothy A mama,
Speaker 6: and she took pride. She was always patting him and
Speaker 6: talking about how well he was doing, and so he
Speaker 6: seemed to be the text BOOKUET of you know, what
Speaker 6: could happen if someone were put in the right situation.
Speaker 6: But then something happened that, in retrospect, was really ominous.
Speaker 6: Around this time, Judy Moys was busy with other things,
Speaker 6: and she wasn't checking regularly on Bert. She has a
Speaker 6: son who has a mental disability, and she had lots
Speaker 6: of her own problems, and she was working. But during
Speaker 6: this time I think perhaps Dorothea saw her window opportunity.
Speaker 6: This is also about the time one of her other tenants,
Speaker 6: Ben Feint, disappeared, and then inexplicably, Bert left Dorothea's, walked
Speaker 6: all the way across town and went back to the
Speaker 6: Volunteers of America's shelter, to the Detox Shelter, and he
Speaker 6: spoke to a friend of his there who couldn't understand
Speaker 6: why he had come back, and he said he didn't
Speaker 6: want to go back to Dorothea's. And his friend said,
Speaker 6: but why, I mean, you have your own room, you
Speaker 6: have a bed, you have hot meals served to you,
Speaker 6: you've got a TV in your room. I mean, Bert,
Speaker 6: why wouldn't you want to be with Dorothea? And Bert
Speaker 6: didn't articulate really what his concern was. He seemed unhappy,
Speaker 6: but this worker just couldn't understand. He thought maybe he
Speaker 6: was lonely or whatever, but he was convinced that there
Speaker 6: was no way that Bert couldn't possibly be happy back
Speaker 6: in this corrugated mell shelter with a bunch of snoring
Speaker 6: drunks when he could have his own room, in his
Speaker 6: own bed and clean clothes. So he took him back.
Speaker 6: He drove him back to Dorothea's and Bert stopped him.
Speaker 6: He asked him to stop, and having dropped off about
Speaker 6: a block before the house because he was afraid Dorothea
Speaker 6: would be mad if she saw him dropped off in
Speaker 6: this other fellow's car. And that was the last time
Speaker 6: this fellows saw him. I'm trying to think of his name.
Speaker 6: I think his name was Chuck or Charlie. And he
Speaker 6: was quite i won't say cheerful, but you know, regretful
Speaker 6: later when he realized that that was the last time
Speaker 6: he ever saw Burt. And within a couple of months
Speaker 6: from that, Bert was gone. And that that was when
Speaker 6: all the domino started to fall because Judy stopped by
Speaker 6: to visit Bert. You know, haven't seen him for a while, Dorothea,
Speaker 6: how's he doing, and Dorothea said, well, he's in Mexico
Speaker 6: visiting my family. Yes, I took him to Mexico and
Speaker 6: they liked him so much they asked him to stay.
Speaker 6: And if, perhaps if Dorothy had come up with a
Speaker 6: better story, she would have gotten away with this, but
Speaker 6: Judy insisted that he would not be would not be
Speaker 6: okay in Mexico, no matter how great generous her relatives were.
Speaker 6: He couldn't be getting his Social Security checks and he
Speaker 6: needed to come back to the States. And Dorothea then promised, oh, yes, yes,
Speaker 6: I'll bring him back. I'll bring He'll be back next week.
Speaker 6: And when Judy came back next week, he wasn't there,
Speaker 6: and she made another story. And when this went on,
Speaker 6: Judy said, well, I'm I'm going to have to call
Speaker 6: the police. And Dorothy said, no, no, no, no, I'll
Speaker 6: go down and get him myself. I promised he'll be
Speaker 6: here Saturday. And when Judy showed up on Saturday, again,
Speaker 6: he was not there. And again she had an elaborate
Speaker 6: story about how some relatives had shown up and you know,
Speaker 6: taken him along to Utah, and she kept, you know,
Speaker 6: weaving more and more elaborate tales and Judy, unlike many people,
Speaker 6: was quite persistent. And at one point one of the
Speaker 6: other tenants, John Sharp, who was you know, a man
Speaker 6: who lived up to his name. He's a pretty sharp guy,
Speaker 6: pulled Judiette aside and said, there's something going on here.
Speaker 6: He had noticed these long trenches being dug in the backyard,
Speaker 6: and then he'd get up the next day and the
Speaker 6: trenches would be filled in, and Ben think was gone.
Speaker 6: And so he told her about that, and so she
Speaker 6: went to the police and they kind of scoffed at
Speaker 6: her story that this little lady was murdering people right
Speaker 6: in the middle of downtown Sacramento. But then the police
Speaker 6: went and they asked. They actually brought shovels and asked
Speaker 6: to dig in the art, and Dorothea gave her broke characters.
Speaker 6: She said, oh, yes, that would be fine. I have
Speaker 6: no idea what's back there. And they started digging and
Speaker 6: they found a leg bone, a human leg bone. So
Speaker 6: they shut down all the digging, and Dorothea called the
Speaker 6: detective of Cabrera over and said, am I under arrest?
Speaker 6: And he said no. She said, well, would you mind
Speaker 6: if I go and have coffee with my cousin and
Speaker 6: he said that would be fine. And by then there
Speaker 6: was quite a you know, an audience, I should say,
Speaker 6: there were a lot of spectators, neighbors. There was police tape,
Speaker 6: they brought in heavy equipment for the digging. The media
Speaker 6: had I had gathered and Dorothea was the antithesis of understatement.
Speaker 6: She was there with her pink umbrella and her purple
Speaker 6: pump and her red coat, and he escorted her, Detective
Speaker 6: Cabrera escorted her past all of the media to go
Speaker 6: have coffee, allegedly, and when they exhumed a body, she
Speaker 6: was gone. And once they decided they would arrest her,
Speaker 6: she had disappeared. And that's when they did. They all
Speaker 6: out manhunt, and they you know, realized that she was
Speaker 6: an ex con, that she'd been conning her Pearle officers
Speaker 6: for years, and they didn't know where she was. It
Speaker 6: was really embarrassing, of course for Sacramento law enforcement. They
Speaker 6: watched the airport and uh the bus station. But what
Speaker 6: Dorothya did was very clever. They found out later. She
Speaker 6: took a taxi to a bar in West Sacramento and
Speaker 6: had a few drinks with a friend, and then she
Speaker 6: took a taxi all the way to Stockton, which is
Speaker 6: about sixty miles south of Sacramento, and there she caught
Speaker 6: a bus and went to Los Angeles. And so she
Speaker 6: had fled, the fled Sacramento and apparently even called the
Speaker 6: police and gave them, or had someone give them a
Speaker 6: false tip that she was in Reno. And so they
Speaker 6: were the police were all ready for her to fly
Speaker 6: into Reno. They had the you know, the flights, and uh,
Speaker 6: of course she was not in Reno. So she was
Speaker 6: a very clever escape artist and she probably would have
Speaker 6: gotten away with it. Shall I continue telling you this
Speaker 6: story because.
Speaker 2: This is what well, what did lead what did lead
Speaker 2: to her downfall? How long was it before police actually,
Speaker 2: well tell us how police proceed and then you can
Speaker 2: tell us how long and how about how exactly she
Speaker 2: was apprehended.
Speaker 6: Well, initially they took her in for questioning, and you know,
Speaker 6: she continued with her story that she didn't know what
Speaker 6: happened to Bert that well, no, that she that she
Speaker 6: had seen her Bert's relative come and pick him up
Speaker 6: on that Saturday. She continued with this lie, and in fact,
Speaker 6: she asked one of the other tenants, John Sharp, to
Speaker 6: lie for her, so he backed up her story. But
Speaker 6: then what happened was that when she stepped out of
Speaker 6: the room, John Sharp passed a note to the detective.
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Speaker 6: And so they threw hand signals arranged to meet around
Speaker 6: the corner later, and so the detective picked him up
Speaker 6: on the corner and questioned him now, and he revealed
Speaker 6: to the police more of what he knew. And he
Speaker 6: had a room underneath the stairs, and he said that
Speaker 6: one night he'd heard this thump thump, thump thump coming
Speaker 6: down the stairs, that it was about two in the morning,
Speaker 6: and it scared him so much that he he couldn't
Speaker 6: go back to sleep, and he propped a door against
Speaker 6: a chair against the door. So the police then that's
Speaker 6: when they started bringing in the heavy equipment and watching
Speaker 6: the house. But they didn't have apparently they didn't have
Speaker 6: enough to arrest Dorothea at that time. So they continued
Speaker 6: with the exhamations from the yard, and as I said,
Speaker 6: they found seven suuried there. And what is really not
Speaker 6: a very big yard. I mean, it's not like it was,
Speaker 6: you know, an acre in the middle of Sacramento. It
Speaker 6: was just a regular lot right there on a fairly
Speaker 6: busy street. With a sidewalk and big shady trees, and they,
Speaker 6: you know, were continuing with their all points bulletin. She
Speaker 6: was over in the news. But meanwhile, Dorothea was had
Speaker 6: had fled to Los Angeles and she just stayed in
Speaker 6: her hotel room for several days, and then finally she
Speaker 6: kind of went back to her old routine what was
Speaker 6: limited to her. She decided she needed a drink. She
Speaker 6: called a taxi. She went to a bar, She sat
Speaker 6: at the counter. She struck up a conversation with this fellow,
Speaker 6: and she charmed him completely. She said she had just
Speaker 6: come into town and then scrupulous taxi had driven off
Speaker 6: with her luggage, and and it was clearly getting close
Speaker 6: to Thanksgiving, and so she chatted up this guy and
Speaker 6: said she would make Thanksgiving dinner for him, and so
Speaker 6: they made an arrangement. He was going to come pick
Speaker 6: her up the next day and take her shopping. And
Speaker 6: something was eating at him. He thought she kind of
Speaker 6: looked familiar. And then the news came on and they
Speaker 6: had a picture of her, and he thought, she looks
Speaker 6: like she could be but gosh, I really don't know,
Speaker 6: and I'd hate for that really to be her. So
Speaker 6: what was interesting. He didn't call police. He called the
Speaker 6: TV station I think it was CBS and talked to
Speaker 6: the reporter and they talked for quite a while, and
Speaker 6: the reporter got his address and came with some photographs
Speaker 6: and called his news team and then called the police.
Speaker 6: And when they arrested her, she was quite acquiescent, and
Speaker 6: they flew her back to Sacramento and started these proceedings
Speaker 6: knowing like could believe that she could have gotten away
Speaker 6: with it all this time. And I think that was
Speaker 6: what's so fascinating about this case is that she she
Speaker 6: was so successful, and you don't think about female serial killers.
Speaker 6: They're really quite rare, and and she was one of
Speaker 6: the most successful that I know of.
Speaker 2: Now. She just stuck to her original story with police
Speaker 2: when she was questioned that she didn't know where these
Speaker 2: gentlemen were, She didn't know the whereabouts or what was
Speaker 2: contained in the back garden. So and at the same time,
Speaker 2: are they trying to find anybody that assisted her with
Speaker 2: say the burials.
Speaker 6: Well that was that was one of the things that
Speaker 6: was fairly controversial, because yes, she was, you know, a
Speaker 6: healthy individual. I don't believe she did it on her own,
Speaker 6: but you know, you have to be careful who you
Speaker 6: accuse of being an accompliced to murder. And she just
Speaker 6: clammed up. She got her attorneys and the defense put
Speaker 6: forth the theory that these people just died. She's guilty
Speaker 6: of illegal burial and stealing their money, but not of murder.
Speaker 6: And no one else was accused of helping her. I mean,
Speaker 6: I think that there's one fellow who was called her
Speaker 6: major Duomo, they called him, who was a good friend
Speaker 6: of hers. But again, she wasn't in a position to
Speaker 6: say I didn't do it, but he helped me. So
Speaker 6: since she didn't testify, they were not They didn't bring
Speaker 6: charges against anyone else. They only brought charges against her.
Speaker 6: And even then it was a year long trial. I've
Speaker 6: felt so sorry for the jurors because it really was
Speaker 6: a very arduous, ongoing trial, and the prosecutor lost forty
Speaker 6: pounds during the whole course of the others he was
Speaker 6: working hard.
Speaker 2: Now, how much how important was the fact that there
Speaker 2: was traces of Dalmain, and of course with Dalmain and
Speaker 2: its characteristics that could be again testified at court through
Speaker 2: experts tell us about the role of Dalmain in this
Speaker 2: if any.
Speaker 6: Well, that's what was so difficult because some of these
Speaker 6: bodies were extremely decomposed. But what the forensic team did
Speaker 6: was they took extractions from their liver and their brains
Speaker 6: and from that they ran it through something called a
Speaker 6: mass spectrometer that can read all the chemicals that are
Speaker 6: in the body. And they found a number of chemicals
Speaker 6: and dalmain is just the one that was the most
Speaker 6: significant link. But they found, you know, a whole toxic
Speaker 6: cocktail of things in these people's bodies. The problem was
Speaker 6: that you there are no studies. You can't murder someone,
Speaker 6: bury them and then test them, you know, months or
Speaker 6: years later to see what the levels are. And so
Speaker 6: you don't know whether these drugs become more concentrated in
Speaker 6: the liver and the brain as the body desiccates, or
Speaker 6: whether they actually dissipate as the body decomposes and pass
Speaker 6: out with the fluids. And so that was the argument
Speaker 6: that went back and forth and back and forth with
Speaker 6: the expert forensic toxicologists who came on on stand and testified,
Speaker 6: and also why these people's doctors came and testified about
Speaker 6: their chronic medical conditions. But eventually it came pretty clear
Speaker 6: not only from the combinations of drugs that were in
Speaker 6: their systems. And again Dorothea was the common link. Even
Speaker 6: if they had never had a prescription for Dealmain, they
Speaker 6: would have Delmain in their systems, and she had at
Speaker 6: least two prescriptions ongoing into different names for Dealmain, and
Speaker 6: she would hoard them. I mean, if you you know,
Speaker 6: if you have sixty pills and then break them up
Speaker 6: in a glass of bourbon, that's a pretty strong drink.
Speaker 6: But anyway, the other thing is the manner in which
Speaker 6: the bodies were buried. They were all wrapped in the
Speaker 6: same way. They were wrapped in sheets. They had something
Speaker 6: these pads. I think they're called Chuck's pads. They're kind
Speaker 6: of essentially like a big diaper put over their faces
Speaker 6: and then they were wrapped and taped and then with
Speaker 6: plastic bags over them. They lie sprinkled on them. So
Speaker 6: they were there were commonalities in the way all of
Speaker 6: the bodies were prepared for burial, and so there was
Speaker 6: no no question that it was quite intentional that they
Speaker 6: you know, they didn't just stumble out into the garden
Speaker 6: and fall into a hole and get covered with leaves
Speaker 6: or uh. And they weren't disposed of in ways that
Speaker 6: were terribly dissimilar. Although I have to say that the
Speaker 6: first woman that Dorothea murdered, the first woman who went missing,
Speaker 6: Betty Palmer, was extraordinary in that she had no head,
Speaker 6: hands or feet, and I can only suppose that Dorothea
Speaker 6: felt that that would make her harder to identify if
Speaker 6: the body was found, and those body parts were never found.
Speaker 2: Now, now did Dorothea have in terms of how good
Speaker 2: of an attorney did she have? And and how good
Speaker 2: was the defense that they that they did mount, because
Speaker 2: we're talking about nine counts, tell us how good that
Speaker 2: defense was or what was the prosecutions? I know that
Speaker 2: you couldn't say when because of the degradation that happened
Speaker 2: over this long period of time, But could they draw
Speaker 2: any again circumstantial to a great degree, But could they
Speaker 2: say anything about the first again, Debbie Palmer with the
Speaker 2: hands and and uh and head missing and the lie
Speaker 2: which would seem to progress the decomposition radically as well?
Speaker 2: So tell us how really the prosecution against the defense
Speaker 2: and what the defense really chose to use. Tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about that.
Speaker 6: Well, there were two defense attorneys, Peter Blauten and Kevin Klimo.
Speaker 6: So she had two public defenders working for her case,
Speaker 6: and then John o'marra was the sole prosecutor, and during
Speaker 6: the course of the trial they they both mounted, you know,
Speaker 6: massive amounts of evidence and long testimony from all kinds
Speaker 6: of experts. I think that the question is not you
Speaker 6: know who was a better attorney or who presented the
Speaker 6: better case, so much as you know what was going
Speaker 6: on in the minds of the jurors, because it really
Speaker 6: just takes one and to me, logically, if she murdered one,
Speaker 6: she murdered them all. And yet the jury found her
Speaker 6: guilty on only four counts. Now that's kind of hard
Speaker 6: to fathom. But it came out later that there was
Speaker 6: one juror who did not believe that poisons and could
Speaker 6: be pharmaceuticals, and the other jurors could not convince them
Speaker 6: of that, and so for that reason, and they deliberated
Speaker 6: for a record amount of time. I'm trying to remember
Speaker 6: how long it was, how many days. It was well
Speaker 6: over a month, and they even tried to come back
Speaker 6: as a hung jury, and they judge asked them to
Speaker 6: go and deliberate some more, and finally that's the best
Speaker 6: they could do. They came back with four murder counts,
Speaker 6: and to me, that defies logic. But then I wasn't
Speaker 6: on the jury, and it only takes one person who's
Speaker 6: unconvinced to hang a jury, so that's the best they
Speaker 6: could do. And to me, the saddest thing about that
Speaker 6: was Ruth Monroe, because she was the woman who her
Speaker 6: death was ruled a suicide, and she had a very
Speaker 6: active family who testified, and they were very upset because
Speaker 6: Dorothy had pretended to bear friend and their mother would
Speaker 6: never have committed suicide, and so they never got the
Speaker 6: satisfaction of seeing their mother's death vindicated. So I think
Speaker 6: that was extremely hard for them. What's interesting, too, is
Speaker 6: that for the California court system, once someone is convicted
Speaker 6: on multiple murder counts, then the trial goes to another phase,
Speaker 6: which is the penalty phase, and it's a death penalty state.
Speaker 6: So at that point there was a shift. Once she
Speaker 6: had been convicted on those four counts, there is a
Speaker 6: shift towards basically the defense begging for her life. And
Speaker 6: what was extraordinary about that was that they brought out
Speaker 6: all kinds of information about her past that I had
Speaker 6: not been able to in earth. I'd been researching her
Speaker 6: at that time for three or four years, because this
Speaker 6: went on for so long, and I'd found some marriage
Speaker 6: certificates under different names and different things, but I had
Speaker 6: not realized that she had such a horrible childhood. And
Speaker 6: they brought out a forensic psychiatrist that then testify about
Speaker 6: what Dorothy had gone through as a child, which truly
Speaker 6: was horrific. I mean, her father died of tuberculosis when
Speaker 6: she was quite young. There was a house full of children.
Speaker 6: I'm going to forget if it was four or six
Speaker 6: kids that would be left alone for days at a time.
Speaker 6: They would, you know, basically be rummaging through garbage cans
Speaker 6: in the neighborhood and and neighbors would call. And I
Speaker 6: guess they didn't have child protective services at that time
Speaker 6: because these days they would have been taken away from
Speaker 6: their mother. But she was she was her mother was
Speaker 6: a was a prostitute. She would bring men to the
Speaker 6: house or she would disappear for long periods. And then
Speaker 6: her mother was killed in a motorcycle accident. And Dorothea,
Speaker 6: I think was nine when she was shipped off to
Speaker 6: an orphanage. And we can only imagine what happened there so,
Speaker 6: and then after that, that's when she started concocting these
Speaker 6: elaborate lies. So you know, she's certainly a damaged, a
Speaker 6: damaged individual. And they even brought in a woman. Everyone
Speaker 6: was astonished that she had a daughter, and her daughter
Speaker 6: came and testified. She didn't know her mother, of course,
Speaker 6: but the defense team was able to locate her and
Speaker 6: she was quite a sympathetic witness. So they didn't sentence
Speaker 6: her to death. They sent her to life without parole,
Speaker 6: and Dorothea died. It's almost two years ago now, I
Speaker 6: believe in prison.
Speaker 2: In Now you talk about that this was a death
Speaker 2: penalty case. What distinguished the and you say it only
Speaker 2: takes one juror to you know, I have a hung jury.
Speaker 2: But what distinguished the four murders from the other five
Speaker 2: that they didn't convict on? So what distinguished those murders
Speaker 2: that they were able to get a conviction of murder
Speaker 2: from that same jury.
Speaker 6: You know, that was something that all the people, the
Speaker 6: press and the observers discussed afterwards because it was baffling
Speaker 6: to us. We were so surprised, it seemed to me,
Speaker 6: and this is just my personal opinion that the the
Speaker 6: murders that were argued the most rigorously were the ones
Speaker 6: that were not she was not convicted on, And the
Speaker 6: ones which seemed kind of, you know, like obvious and
Speaker 6: therefore were not debated strenuously in court were the ones
Speaker 6: that she did get convicted on. So I think that
Speaker 6: the more controversy there was over these people, or that
Speaker 6: the perhaps more confused or maybe the better the case
Speaker 6: that the defense made for those cases. But the ones
Speaker 6: that didn't get a lot of attention in court or
Speaker 6: were the ones she was convicted on.
Speaker 2: It it was unusual, but forensically, other than what you've
Speaker 2: just said, was a distinguishing characteristic. Really, you know, if
Speaker 2: you can answer this forensically, was there really anything you know,
Speaker 2: more authoritative than the other one? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: In terms of those four murders. Were they clearly more
Speaker 2: prosecutable or was it, like you say, maybe a little
Speaker 2: bit baffling to everybody At the end of it, I.
Speaker 6: Couldn't find any reason. I mean it really, it just
Speaker 6: didn't make any sense to me. I wish I knew.
Speaker 6: I didn't interview that particular juror afterwards he just kind
Speaker 6: of disappeared and didn't give interviews. So I don't know.
Speaker 6: I really couldn't say. But that's a very good question
Speaker 6: that someone else might have an idea, but I'm afraid
Speaker 6: I can't answer that.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is too I think with nine. I mean,
Speaker 2: of course, regrettably, five people, five families, five victims do
Speaker 2: not have justice, you know, in quotations from this court case.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, in terms of prosecution, this
Speaker 2: person's going to spend the rest of her life in
Speaker 2: prison and did and so four out of nine, six
Speaker 2: out of nine, seven out of nine, if you see
Speaker 2: what I mean. It's regrettable that you don't get justice
Speaker 2: for all those other cases, but certainly as long as
Speaker 2: she's prosecuted, and it's I think that justice has done overall.
Speaker 6: I would think, Well, one good thing is that after this,
Speaker 6: the procedures for regulating boarding houses and also for distributing
Speaker 6: checks became more stringent. So what Dorothea was able to
Speaker 6: pull off then wouldn't be replicable today. It did wake
Speaker 6: people up that, you know, the system was flawed, and
Speaker 6: so there were some changes made, and I would hope,
Speaker 6: you know, and part of what was I was thinking
Speaker 6: when I was writing the book is that I hope
Speaker 6: that people pay a little more attention and don't just
Speaker 6: assume that just because someone looks nice that they're going
Speaker 6: to be taking good care of mom or dad or grandpa.
Speaker 6: That you need to be a little more suspicious and
Speaker 6: and you know, question people's motives and also their background.
Speaker 6: It's interesting too, you know, talking to an FBI agent recently,
Speaker 6: there's kind of a saying that in terms of serial killers,
Speaker 6: that that men kill in the bedroom and women kill
Speaker 6: in the kitchen, and generally women who are killers generally
Speaker 6: tend to use poisons as opposed to violent means, and
Speaker 6: so they can more easily disguise the the murder as
Speaker 6: a natural death.
Speaker 2: Well, historically, that's what we're finding is that people say, well,
Speaker 2: there's not female serial killers, and they go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: they've been around for centuries and that's exactly what. They're poisoners,
Speaker 2: and very prolific poisoners as well, and for and for
Speaker 2: multiple reasons as well. It wouldn't be just it would
Speaker 2: be robbery, it would be it would be two or
Speaker 2: three things involved sometimes so kind of complex killers as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Well, the other thing they say that, you know, male
Speaker 6: serial killers usually target strangers and that women usually change
Speaker 6: go after people that know and trust them. That's a
Speaker 6: cautionary tale, right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, and more intimate eval we'll say, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: But she really was a fascinating person because you know,
Speaker 6: once she was in prison, she wasn't dangerous. You know,
Speaker 6: she's she wasn't the kind of person to be shaking
Speaker 6: guards or getting in fights. You know, they thought she
Speaker 6: was people thought she was innocent that you know, she
Speaker 6: shouldn't have been there. And she was very motherly to
Speaker 6: the fellow inmates, and you know, she was I think
Speaker 6: she even bit some cooking, and I think she worked
Speaker 6: in the.
Speaker 2: I was going to have they should have her in
Speaker 2: the kitchen. Yeah yeah, we'll just get the inmates to
Speaker 2: test out the food, mind you you know.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah. They apparently she had christe a reputation. And
Speaker 6: in fact, I think someone wrote a book, uh, dorothy
Speaker 6: Appointed's Cookbook. I think it's kind of tongue in cheap,
Speaker 6: but you know, because of the you know, it echoes
Speaker 6: the arsenic and old lace story. You know, there are
Speaker 6: elements humorous, humorous elements is very dark humor, but the
Speaker 6: humorous elements in Dorothea's story.
Speaker 2: And so she said and so you say she passed
Speaker 2: away a couple of years ago in prison.
Speaker 6: Oh yes, yeah, so so we can we can close
Speaker 6: the chapter on on Dorothea. But but my book is
Speaker 6: still out there, which is nice. So disturbed around is
Speaker 6: it's only available as an e book. It's out of print,
Speaker 6: which is kind of a shame because the book, the
Speaker 6: print book has photographs of Dorothea and some of her
Speaker 6: i ds and the other people involved in the case.
Speaker 6: The you know, the digging at the yard and at
Speaker 6: street house.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, thank god, it's it's made it to e book,
Speaker 2: probably because of great sales in the first place. But
Speaker 2: you know, it lives again so again previously to the
Speaker 2: e book because book would just go out of print.
Speaker 2: Then well that's it. I mean that that would be
Speaker 2: a real shame.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad that it's out in e book book.
Speaker 6: And well so was perfect Victim. That's my other true
Speaker 6: crime that you mentioned. And then I just came out
Speaker 6: with my debut fiction, The Edge of Normal, which is
Speaker 6: inspired by a true story. It's kind of Elizabeth Smart
Speaker 6: meets Clarice Starling type story.
Speaker 2: So so, how how how non fiction? How much how
Speaker 2: non fiction is it?
Speaker 6: Yeah? Do you mean how much truth is in the story? Yeah,
Speaker 6: well it was. It was inspired by a survivor of
Speaker 6: kidnapping in captivity, so Perfect Victim is about the victimization
Speaker 6: of a young woman who was kidnapped, and The Edge
Speaker 6: of Normal is fiction about a survivor of kidnapping in captivity,
Speaker 6: So they're kind of mirror images of those stories. But
Speaker 6: a lot of people ask me about the difference stream
Speaker 6: writing fiction and nonfiction, and the closest I can explain
Speaker 6: is that when you're writing non fiction, the story must
Speaker 6: serve the facts, and when you're writing fiction, the facts
Speaker 6: serve the story, so you have a different priority when
Speaker 6: when you're writing those kinds of books. You really have
Speaker 6: to be very careful in writing nonfiction because it's always
Speaker 6: this little voice on your shoulder bit that lawyers and
Speaker 6: doctors and you know, forensic experts are going to be
Speaker 6: reading your book with a very critical eye. If you
Speaker 6: get one thing wrong, they're going to throw the book
Speaker 6: across the room. So you're always very cautious about your credibility,
Speaker 6: Whereas when you're writing fiction, you know, I've made up
Speaker 6: a fake town because I didn't want someone saying there's
Speaker 6: really not an exit there when you go right across
Speaker 6: the lake, or I didn't want people arguing about the
Speaker 6: facts of the geography. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now with the Perfect Victim, normally we just talk
Speaker 2: about one book, and we have a little bit more
Speaker 2: time just to talk about briefly about Perfect Victim because
Speaker 2: I'd like to I apologize, but I'd like to get
Speaker 2: you back on just to talk about Perfect Victim, because
Speaker 2: it's such an incredible book, such an important story. Again,
Speaker 2: I don't know how on earth I didn't really know
Speaker 2: about this story. Tell us when this book was published,
Speaker 2: tell us when the story actually occurred, at least in
Speaker 2: terms of the trial, because stories started way much much
Speaker 2: before that. But tell us just a little tell our audience.
Speaker 2: It's just a little bit about this incredible case and
Speaker 2: when it did occur.
Speaker 6: Well, that was an amazing story and at the time
Speaker 6: everyone was kind of astonished about the headlines went international. Originally,
Speaker 6: it was a kidnapping that happened in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 6: A twenty year old hitchhiker was picked up by a
Speaker 6: man and his wife and their infant. It looked very safe,
Speaker 6: but he was actually looking for a sex slave, and
Speaker 6: he abducted her in a very grizzly manner and held
Speaker 6: her captive, most of the time in a box for
Speaker 6: seven years. When she was released, she and the life
Speaker 6: fled together and the trial was in nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 6: And so it was a case that it was so
Speaker 6: unsettling because it's about brainwashing, or captivity, syndrome, Stockholm syndrome,
Speaker 6: mind control, coercion, you can use a lot of different terms.
Speaker 6: But it was so unsettling. I thought nothing like this
Speaker 6: would ever happen again. And then, of course there have
Speaker 6: been the three women just actually a year ago today,
Speaker 6: the three women in Cleveland who were discovered, the jac
Speaker 6: de Gard case, which is just absolutely startling to imagine
Speaker 6: anybody held for eighteen years. The Elizabeth Smart case is
Speaker 6: the one that has I really think caught public attention.
Speaker 6: She was held for nine months, but she was such
Speaker 6: a sympathetic is such a sympathetic and inspiring young woman
Speaker 6: that she has really I think taught the public a
Speaker 6: lot about not only about what a victim goes through,
Speaker 6: but what a survivor must do to overcome that kind
Speaker 6: of ordeal. And she's a real advocate for something called
Speaker 6: rad Kids for teaching kids self defense to fight off
Speaker 6: abductors in any case, perfect victim. When it came out,
Speaker 6: because it discusses these mind control issues that were not
Speaker 6: well understood, it was picked up by the FBI's Behavioral
Speaker 6: Sciences Unit put on their reading list, and the book
Speaker 6: came out and was on the New York Times Paperback
Speaker 6: Nonfiction bestseller list for eighteen weeks. It was number one
Speaker 6: on that list for four weeks, and it's never gone
Speaker 6: out of print. It's still something that I think every
Speaker 6: time there's a horrific kidnapping story, that there's another resurgence
Speaker 6: of interest in the story. And I'm very glad that
Speaker 6: I have maintained contact with the victim of that story.
Speaker 6: She's alive and well, there's not a lot of blood
Speaker 6: on the walls. It's not a grizzly murder, but it's psychologically,
Speaker 6: I think, just a fascinating a fascinating story and an
Speaker 6: astonishing crime. You know.
Speaker 2: And the thing is, too, I see a lot of
Speaker 2: reviews of books, and there are certain true crime readers
Speaker 2: that they're a dedicated true crime reader that love the
Speaker 2: entire book, and there's these other people that say, wow,
Speaker 2: I didn't like the trial. Well, this trial is incredible
Speaker 2: because not only of the information that comes out at trial,
Speaker 2: but for this woman that's been held in captivity for
Speaker 2: seven years to now have to answer to now have
Speaker 2: to be cross examined, now has to you know, been
Speaker 2: shut away from society and their family and everyone else
Speaker 2: with these threats now has to go to court. And
Speaker 2: it's just an incredible, incredible viewpoint that you put the
Speaker 2: reader in to be able to get this incredible landmark
Speaker 2: trial and to really, by virtue of your entire book,
Speaker 2: Perfect Victim, to understand this. Colleen stan Jan Hooker and
Speaker 2: mister Hooker, I guess to a great degree the book
Speaker 2: were instead different from those other cases. And again before
Speaker 2: this time, the only the public really only knew about
Speaker 2: the Patty Hirst case. And I mean that is a
Speaker 2: confusing case because Patty Hirst of course goes on to
Speaker 2: do some crime under the tulge of her abductors. So
Speaker 2: this story that you have is just again a psychological thriller.
Speaker 2: It really is. I'm not overstating this, and it's again
Speaker 2: that's why I wanted to have you on when talking
Speaker 2: about disturb Brown but Perfect Victim, I just got to
Speaker 2: extol the virtues of how great this true crime book is.
Speaker 2: It's one of the most unique and incredible books. So
Speaker 2: I just want to thank you for this interview about
Speaker 2: disturb Brown, but also again I got to have you
Speaker 2: back on to talk specifically about Perfect Victim.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you, Dan, thank you. I really appreciate those comments.
Speaker 6: I'm glad you liked the books, and thank you for
Speaker 6: reading both of them. It's been a real pleasure talking
Speaker 6: to you, and I yes, I'd love to speak to
Speaker 6: you again.
Speaker 2: Yes. The other thing was is that the Perfect Victim
Speaker 2: is also again the incredible access you have is by
Speaker 2: virtue of having the prosecutor at least helping with this book,
Speaker 2: and so together this book has this again an access
Speaker 2: to some information that you really don't get with most
Speaker 2: true crime books.
Speaker 6: So yeah, we collaborated on the book. She prosecuted the
Speaker 6: case and then we worked on the book after the trial,
Speaker 6: and I really did want to put together the problems
Speaker 6: that she had in prosecuting it and answer those questions
Speaker 6: with the facts of the case. But it was a
Speaker 6: real education for me as well, because there are all
Speaker 6: kinds of of legal issues that aren't necessarily apparent in
Speaker 6: the courtroom, but that were a real conundrum. And when
Speaker 6: you bring up Patty Hurst, I mean, yes, she was
Speaker 6: tried for crime since she committed after she'd gone through
Speaker 6: this very intense indoctrination and had taken essentially a slave name.
Speaker 6: And so there are similarities between those two cases. And
Speaker 6: then once again it was the same courtroom, the same state,
Speaker 6: and people didn't believe that Colin stan had been held
Speaker 6: captive by Cameron Hooker for all those years against her will,
Speaker 6: and it was partly because they didn't understand the mind
Speaker 6: control issues and how you go about subverting someone's will
Speaker 6: over a very intense period of time of torture and deprivation.
Speaker 2: What you also include, too, is just a little bit
Speaker 2: of information about a classic fictional book that I guess
Speaker 2: was well, I guess was inspiration to serial killers like
Speaker 2: the subject of Die for Me, Leonard Lake and Charles
Speaker 2: ng but specifically Leonard Lake, and he had a little
Speaker 2: the same kind of dream as mister Hooker, little cell
Speaker 2: underneath his home where he would have a sex slave,
Speaker 2: and he utilized his own family, girlfriend, daughter, and friend
Speaker 2: into this abduction and enslavement of his victims. So I
Speaker 2: thought it interesting that you included a little reference as
Speaker 2: well and again this John Fowls, it's a fictional account.
Speaker 6: But oh you signed.
Speaker 2: Out the collector, Yeah, the collector, the collector, Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 2: And so you see a connection with the most sinister
Speaker 2: type of I think from all the true crime that
Speaker 2: I've read, when you get a couple a man and wife,
Speaker 2: a girlfriend, boyfriend, two men, but especially in my and
Speaker 2: wife abducting people and enslaving them, and the contract that
Speaker 2: she was she believed that she was signing this incredible,
Speaker 2: incredible horror that this woman was subjected to. And then
Speaker 2: if you think, jeez, that, how could it get any worse? Well,
Speaker 2: now you have a trial, and it isn't black and white,
Speaker 2: It isn't an easy conviction. People are not familiar with this.
Speaker 2: They actually can't believe this. And as far as a
Speaker 2: defense attorney this, he's a really good, dedicated attorney that's
Speaker 2: giving a very very vigorous defense to his client.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I for Coleen to have to go through that,
Speaker 6: but you're right, I mean, we we had no idea
Speaker 6: which way the verdict would go, because it was it
Speaker 6: was such a peculiar case and had gone on for
Speaker 6: so long and there was really no precedent for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely well, you know, thanks to you a savvy publisher,
Speaker 2: and to dedicated people like yourself. And is it Christine
Speaker 2: McGuire was the prosecutor.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the name.
Speaker 2: Yes, so great, and so you came up with a
Speaker 2: fantastic book that I highly recommend. And so thank you
Speaker 2: very much, and thank you for this interview about Disturbed Ground.
Speaker 2: Thank you Carla Norton for coming on and spending some
Speaker 2: time with us this evening. Thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Thank you Dan, you have a good evening
Speaker 2: You too, Good night by now