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Every 28 00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:32.480 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:36.760 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 30 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:50.879 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 31 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:56.159 The story begins with Burt, a gentle, unassuming street person 32 00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:00.400 who mumbled to himself and talk to trees. He wasn't 33 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:03.280 an alcoholic, but he hung out at a detox center 34 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.799 in Sacramento, where a volunteer name Judy took an interest 35 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:10.639 in him. Judy was overjoyed when she found a home 36 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:15.240 for Bert with a silver haired grandmother, Dorothea Puente, who 37 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.280 ran a tidy boarding house in a blue and wha Victorian. 38 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.120 Little did Judy know that Puente, just one of the 39 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:27.280 woman's many aliases, would soon become her obsession. By the 40 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.319 end of the story, Bert has disappeared and the cops 41 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:32.879 are digging up seven corpses from the backyard of the 42 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:38.560 boarding house. Author Carla Norton, author of Perfect Victim skillfully 43 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:42.439 unfolds the many layered character of this classic Arsenic and 44 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:46.560 Old Lace style serial killer. At the pinnacle of her 45 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.039 fame and glory, Dorothea was like a junkie with a 46 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:55.080 philanthropic habit. Everyone dipped into her pot and benefited from 47 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.319 her largesse. She was ultimately tried on nine counts of 48 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:03.159 murder and sentence to death. The book that we're featured 49 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:07.520 featuring this evening is Disturbed Ground, with my special guest 50 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:11.400 journalist and author Carla and Norton. Welcome to the program, 51 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:16.159 and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Carla Norton, Thank. 52 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:17.599 You, Dan, thanks so much for having me. 53 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:21.919 Thank you. Finally we have you on and we're going 54 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.199 to be able to talk about two really really good books, 55 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:29.479 Disturbed Ground, and then later we'll talk about your classic 56 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:32.759 best selling book, Perfect Victim. It's an amazing book that 57 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.599 I just discovered this year, and we'll be able to 58 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:39.080 share a little bit about that story and that incredible 59 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:45.680 book a little bit later. Now, basically, one of the 60 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:49.759 questions I asked often before, without giving any really any 61 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:54.879 of this story away, tell us why you decided to 62 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.159 write about this story, why this story was compelling to you. 63 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:03.879 I think when I first heard about it, it was 64 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:06.879 one of those stories that you just don't believe. Because 65 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:14.080 here it was the capital of California, Sacramento, right downtown, 66 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:19.319 in this charming, little, you know, Victorian house. They started 67 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:23.439 digging up bodies, and when the story broke, Dorothea Pointe 68 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:26.360 had fled town. They didn't know where she was, and 69 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:30.519 they proceeded to unearth seven bodies from her boarding house garden. 70 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:35.920 It was such a bizarre story that I know, I 71 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:38.920 just couldn't get my head around it. And when I 72 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:43.040 started looking into it, I began to understand kind of 73 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:48.319 the the softer human element and how it was that 74 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:52.439 this professional con who'd been getting waved with murder literally 75 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:55.519 for years and years and years was finally caught. And 76 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.439 I just thought, this is an amazing story. Somebody's going 77 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.360 to write about it, and it could be me. So 78 00:05:02.759 --> 00:05:03.720 I just dove right in. 79 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:07.399 Yeah, and you had great instincts too, in terms of 80 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:10.079 the human side that you would be able to uncover 81 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:14.040 and be basically convey in this book here and you 82 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:19.480 and you paint, You paint a vivid portrayal of how 83 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:27.279 this happened. First, of course, with Bert Montoya. Tell us 84 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:33.560 about Bert Montoya. This is an incredible story and and 85 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:35.720 and I like that you put it at the beginning 86 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:38.959 of the book, and we really got to see who 87 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.639 Bert Montoya is. So tell us a little bit about 88 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:42.360 Bert Montoya. 89 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.680 Well, he was a very unlikely fellow to be staying 90 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:52.959 in a detoc center. He clearly had mental problems and 91 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:55.680 was a very gentle soul. He literally would give you 92 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.959 the shirt off his back. He would help the maintenance guy, 93 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.720 paid the tables. If he found some money, he would 94 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:08.759 turn it in. He was just a very mild mannered fellow, 95 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:13.399 but he had, you know issues. He would speak to 96 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.639 the trees he thought there were spirits talking to him. 97 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:20.079 He was He didn't really speak English very well. In fact, 98 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:22.319 for years people didn't think he spoke English at all. 99 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:28.319 But what was interesting about Bert is that Dorothea made 100 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:32.240 a mistake in targeting him because most of the people 101 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:37.720 that she took into her boarding house and then later 102 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:42.480 killed were people that didn't have family checking on them. 103 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.519 And even though Bert didn't have family, he did have 104 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:51.160 a social worker, Judy Moyce, who was attached to him, 105 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:57.639 and so Bert was they kind of a bad choice 106 00:06:57.959 --> 00:06:59.920 for a victim. But let me give you a lit 107 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.879 bit of history first of all, because the thing about 108 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:07.240 Doroth Thea is that she had been a con artist 109 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.199 all her life, since a very young age. And I 110 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:12.160 like to say if she had been bad smell and 111 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.560 bearded and tattooed, she wouldn't have gotten away with this 112 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.199 for so long. But she was a white haired lady 113 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.680 who lied that she was old than she was. She 114 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:26.279 told people she was seventy and without her teeth, with 115 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:29.519 her pale, pale skin and her snowy white hair, she 116 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.639 could look seventy, but in fact she was only fifty 117 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:36.040 nine when she was arrested. And so she played the 118 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:40.079 little old lady role, and no one would have suspected 119 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:47.560 that she was preying upon these needy people. She would 120 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.040 meet them at a bar and bite them into a 121 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.040 boarding house, find out how much they were getting for 122 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:59.920 their various social security, disability pension checks, whatever, and select 123 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.800 her victims. 124 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:06.040 Well, you say, how could she possibly do that? Though, 125 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:10.879 unlike other people that have pulled this ruse before, taken 126 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.519 men in and people that no one's checking on them, 127 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:18.439 What was the treatment of the people before we get 128 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.680 the berth especially but what was the treatment at this 129 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:24.079 boarding house? What was the atmosphere that was there? For 130 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:28.279 anybody that would have come by and spent a few hours, 131 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:29.160 what would they have seen. 132 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.039 Well, Dorothea was a wonderful chameleon, and she played the 133 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.279 part extremely well of the most benevolent landlady you can imagine. 134 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:44.879 She ran a tiptop ship. She cooked big meals, generous 135 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:46.759 meals for all of her boarders. 136 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:48.519 She liked. 137 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:54.879 She liked the reputation of being a very generous person, 138 00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:02.559 and she would organ the calendar, make sure everybody was 139 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.639 going to the doctor at the proper time, arrange for 140 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.879 rides for them. And she also controlled all the medication 141 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:14.759 in the household. And she controlled the mail so once 142 00:09:14.840 --> 00:09:17.879 somebody started getting their checks delivered to the house, she 143 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:22.120 was the only one who could open the mailbox, and 144 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:26.039 then she would have them sign over their checks to her, 145 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.600 and ultimately, after they were deceased, she continued receiving their 146 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.759 checks because she buried them in the yard, knew they 147 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.039 were gone, and she would sign them herself over to her. 148 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.720 She'd take them down to the corner to Joe's Corner Bar, 149 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.440 where she was well known, and he would cast the 150 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:45.879 checks at a bank and bring back thousands of dollars 151 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:49.399 to her every month. She had a really a seamless 152 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:54.080 con going and she went to church every Sunday. She 153 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.399 was very generous again at the bar's local bars, she 154 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:08.600 would sit at certain corner and chat up some elderly 155 00:10:08.679 --> 00:10:11.000 fellow who was in need of a place to live. 156 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:14.000 And my gosh, she had a place in her boarding 157 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:16.759 house that had just opened up, and wouldn't you like 158 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:19.200 to come and see it? And it was, you know, clean, 159 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:23.080 well run. There were no guns being pulled on anyone. 160 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:29.080 It wasn't noisy. She made sure that people got up early. 161 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:32.639 If you missed breakfast, then you didn't get to eat. 162 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:34.960 So she would get up very early in the morning 163 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:39.679 and make breakfast. Before that she would be gardening, and 164 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:46.519 she did have a remarkably beautiful rose garden. We know 165 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:49.240 now that it was a very well fertilized rose garden. 166 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:50.480 But she. 167 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:57.600 Ran things was amazing calm, and even when neighbors would 168 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.320 complain about sometimes there would be an odor, she would 169 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.240 complain about it too. I don't know where that's coming from. 170 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:09.399 I think that's the neighbor over there. So she's kind 171 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:12.279 of phenomenal that she was able to pull this off 172 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:16.600 for so long. Even her name was a lie, Dorothy Applentte. 173 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.679 She pretended that she was Mexican, that she was one 174 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:25.080 of eleven children, that they called her the Gringa of 175 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.320 the family, when in fact she was just you know, 176 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:35.600 a Southern Californian orphan at a very young age. Dorothy 177 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:40.919 Helen Gray was initially her name. So everything about her 178 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.080 was a layer and another layer, and a layer on 179 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.000 top of that of a false identity. 180 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:53.240 Now part of the ruse is that she you said, 181 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.720 she handled the medication, but she also tried to pass 182 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:58.519 herself off as a doctor, as a retired nurse, as 183 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.759 a retired doctor. What were some of the other aliases 184 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:07.360 or did she just limit herself to medical and you know, 185 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:09.440 false medical backgrounds. 186 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:13.759 Well, this was what was so interesting about her is 187 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:16.399 that she was able to read people. So if you 188 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:19.759 were very bright, she wouldn't try to pretend that she 189 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:22.559 was a doctor, or if she was going to be 190 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:25.879 around you a long time, you know, she would read 191 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.320 you and figure out what would work for you. She 192 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.159 might say she was a medic when she was in 193 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:36.320 the military. She once set next to a pharmaceutical salesman 194 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:38.440 for an hour in a bar and talk to him 195 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.519 about medications, and he convinced him she was a doctor. 196 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:47.679 She would, you know, credit her lavish gifts on being 197 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:52.559 a retired surgeon to some people. Years before that, she 198 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:57.159 I think she was kind of a in the Hispanic community, 199 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.840 had been known kind of as a healer, you know 200 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.120 that if you had you know, the flu or toothache 201 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.240 or something, Dorothea can fix you up. And she was 202 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:09.519 known as La dac Tora. And in fact, she would 203 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.399 host a table at the charity ball and at one 204 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:18.519 point then Governor Jerry Brown, who is now again California's governor, 205 00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:22.799 recognized her and crossed the room to kiss her cheek 206 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.000 and ask her to dance. Because she had such a 207 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:30.639 reputation of being a very charitable individual within the community. 208 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:36.759 So yeah, it's kind of phenomenal. She, like I say, 209 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:39.000 she went to church regularly, but then she would go 210 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.159 from the church almost directly to the bar. She also 211 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:46.399 she didn't drive, and so she had a taxi driver 212 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:49.799 that she often called, and the taxi driver would take 213 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:54.840 her to the what do you call it, the hardware 214 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:59.240 labur store gardening and she'd buy gardening surprise, you know, 215 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:04.360 soil and lime and plants and all kinds of things 216 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:08.639 for her garden. So she was busy. And she even 217 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:12.879 the medications that she cashed or that she had subscript 218 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:17.879 prescriptions for were under two different names, as well as 219 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.120 the names of the various people that had lived in 220 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.559 her house, so she was she had identification. I think 221 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:29.320 they found driver's licenses in five different names for Dorothea 222 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:34.519 after she was arrested. But in fact, her life started 223 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.039 when she was very young, and I found that one 224 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:40.679 of the most fascinating things about the trial. When she 225 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.559 was a young teenager, she went to school in Napa 226 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.879 for a short time. She was living in with an 227 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.759 older brother, and she told the other kids that she 228 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:57.759 was a Portuguese exchange student and so she had a 229 00:14:57.759 --> 00:14:59.919 little trouble with English, but that she was a math 230 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:04.840 medical genius. And they were so fascinated by her that 231 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:07.480 they wrote an article about her for the school newspaper. 232 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.879 And when the administration read that, of course they were 233 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:14.480 baffled because they knew she wasn't an exchange student. So 234 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:18.080 these wild fabrications started when she was quite young. 235 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.320 Did she have any criminal background, did she have any 236 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:29.720 contact with psychiatrists or psychologists at that time of any detail. 237 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:32.879 This is yeah, this is what's so interesting about Dorothea 238 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:36.639 is that she actually has She had a long criminal 239 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:42.440 background and apparently was a prostitute for at a young age, 240 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:47.200 and then she actually had gone to prison, so she 241 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.960 was an ex con when she was arrested. She shouldn't 242 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.399 have been running a boarding house because she was prohibited 243 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.759 by her parole from running a boarding house. She shouldn't 244 00:15:56.799 --> 00:16:02.039 have been administering medicaid to anyone because what she had 245 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:05.200 done before was that she had passed her off herself 246 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:09.440 off as a home healthcare nurse, and so then she 247 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:13.080 would be taking care of someone who was sick and elderly, 248 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:18.639 and she stole her jewelry, she stole her checks, and 249 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:24.840 they testified against her. So then she learned that if 250 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:27.679 you leave them alive, you're in danger of going to prison. 251 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.240 Because during that same period of time, she actually committed 252 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.080 her first murder. And this is the one that's the 253 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:38.919 most interesting to me, because Ruth Monroe believe that Dorothy 254 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:41.320 was her friend. The two of them went into business 255 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:46.240 together and they were running a restaurant. Well, Ruth Monroe 256 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.200 was the one that was putting up the money, and 257 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:55.120 large amounts of cash were then disappearing, and Ruth Monroe 258 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.240 had a family who would come and check on her. 259 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:03.799 Ruth and dory Thea became roommates, and when Ruth fell ill, 260 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.599 her family was very concerned about her, but Dorothea was 261 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.680 taking care of her. She assured them that Ruth was 262 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:13.720 going to be fine. She was taking care of her, 263 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:21.160 and the children went home, and then Ruth died very 264 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:23.119 early in the morning, I think at about five am, 265 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:30.440 and Dorothea called an ambulance and said that her friend 266 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.039 had had a heart attack. And when you have an older, 267 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:41.000 overwelight woman living with another older woman, you don't imagine 268 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:43.559 that it's a murder scene. And so they took her 269 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:45.920 off and did the autopsy, found that it was not 270 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:49.200 a heart attack, that she had died from a drug overdose, 271 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.799 and of course by then there was no crime scene. 272 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.319 This was two weeks later, I believe, and then you 273 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.480 have two choices. It's either suicide or it's murder. So 274 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.480 they decided it was suicide, and the family never accepted that. 275 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:07.720 But at about that time Dorothea was arrested and put 276 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:10.480 in prison. For drugging and robbing all other people who 277 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:13.279 then testified against her. So she had a period in 278 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.160 taught of time while she was in prisoned to think 279 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.920 about her mistakes. And when she got out, that's when 280 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.000 she started committing more murders. In fact, when she was tried, 281 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.680 she was tried on nine murder counts, down on seven. 282 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.599 There were the seven bodies found in the yard. But 283 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.440 prior to that, there was Ruth Monroe, and then there 284 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.759 was a charming older gentleman who wanted to marry her, 285 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:39.920 who wrote to her while she was in prison, I'm sorry, 286 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:40.240 did you. 287 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:40.599 Have a question. 288 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:45.400 So the question I did want to pose was when 289 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:48.039 the police found when they did the autopsy, what drug 290 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:51.720 was used to kill Ruth Monroe and what drug was 291 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:58.319 then used in the when she drugged her other victims. 292 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:02.440 Oh that's a very good question. Well, with ruthven Rowe, 293 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.920 she used a ceedam menaphon, and not everyone realizes that 294 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:08.839 tail and all, which is a cedum menaphin. 295 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:12.079 With the lucky land slots, you can get lucky just 296 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.079 about anywhere. 297 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:16.759 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 298 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:18.720 weather's five, but we're just gonna circle up here a 299 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.039 while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's 300 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:24.680 just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest 301 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.720 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 302 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:27.839 start getting lucky. 303 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:31.480 Pay for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are you 304 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:35.240 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 305 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:39.240 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 306 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:44.599 Is deadly when used in combination to access with alcohol, 307 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:50.799 and it's it's rather prolonged death. But it affects you 308 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:53.680 or I can't remember. I think it's your kidneys that's 309 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.519 shut down. And so she basically poisoned her over a 310 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.839 period of time, giving her cream dements to drink, along 311 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:10.960 with high doses of tilineal and yeah and dorothea. Among 312 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.680 her belonging. She had a guide to pharmaceuticals. But what 313 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.640 was interesting because the seven people that were an earth 314 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:19.279 from her yard, and let me talk about them for 315 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:21.839 a while. She ran the s boarding house. She would 316 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:26.200 meet someone, they would move in, she would take excellent 317 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.000 care of them. Everyone would be so impressed, and then 318 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.880 they would simply disappear. And a lot of these people 319 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:40.640 were alcoholic, somewhat itinerate had very little, you know, in 320 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:43.279 terms of means. They were retired, they didn't have jobs, 321 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:45.440 so there was no one to miss them. They didn't 322 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.480 have family, and if they disappeared, very few people came 323 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.200 asking questions. And if they did well, people wandered off 324 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.839 all the time. So, you know, she would say, I 325 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.960 don't know where you know, Betty went. You know, she 326 00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:00.000 was here, and now she said she was going to 327 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:07.319 up to Oregon. She'd just make something up and she 328 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:10.480 would then give away their clothes to charity and bringing 329 00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:14.839 someone else well in the meantime. She so she was 330 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.839 always kind of preparing for someone else to be brought 331 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:23.200 into her lair. And what she did was so clever 332 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.160 because she would have these workers come to the house. 333 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:33.519 And one thing I found fascinating was the incredible charisma 334 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.519 that she had and connections. Where did she get these 335 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:37.200 workers from? 336 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:42.279 Ironically, they were right out of prison. They were halfway 337 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:45.000 house workers, you know, when they've been discharged and they're 338 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.119 on parole. And with these people, she swore up a 339 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:52.000 blue streak. I mean she she could. She was an 340 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.319 ex gone. She knew how to talk to those people 341 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:54.799 as well. 342 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:58.119 She paid them and she told them so, and she 343 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.880 told them that he told them that listen, I can 344 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.160 empathize with you guys, because I did a stint in 345 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:03.720 prison too. 346 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:07.880 Mm hmm. Yeah. So it didn't matter who, you know, 347 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:12.599 what rank someone was, she could she would persuade them 348 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.359 that she was, you know, of had a lot in 349 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.240 common with them. She would tell people that, you know, 350 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:24.039 she was Hispanic if they were Hispanic. She always found 351 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:31.279 some common ground and some way to some way to 352 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:36.640 curry favor. But anyway, you were asking about their medications. Everyone. 353 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:41.920 Every time someone came to her house, she basically collected 354 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.400 their medicines from them, So even if they weren't around anymore, 355 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:49.559 she would still have a supply. And it was very 356 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.920 difficult during the trial for the prosecutor to prove that 357 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:57.240 she had murdered these people because they were so decomposed. 358 00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:00.680 And that was a really key part of the trial. 359 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:08.480 When you have ill people who have heart conditions and 360 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:14.000 diabetes and are alcoholic and all you know, you name it. 361 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:19.559 They had all kinds of severe medical conditions, how do 362 00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:23.880 you prove that they were murdered. Well, it was very 363 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.119 interesting and I actually have a graph in the back 364 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.759 of the book that one of the drugs that Dorothea 365 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.480 had two prescriptions for and a big stash of was dalmain, 366 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:39.160 and dalmaine when it's administered very quickly metabolizes into a 367 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:44.519 different chemical compound. So if someone has taken that within 368 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:48.160 twenty four hours of death, there's a marker you can 369 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:50.960 tell that they took it within twenty four hours of 370 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:54.440 the time they were killed. And all of the bodies 371 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:59.680 exhumed had some residue of dalmain in their system that 372 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.960 proved that they've been administered that drug shortly before their death, 373 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.759 whether or not they'd ever had a prescription. 374 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:12.480 For delmain, right, right, Yeah, she knew her drugs. 375 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:15.359 She knew her drugs, but she used a whole combination 376 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.200 of things. And I believe that she also used alcohol. 377 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.519 You know that she would mix things into an alcoholic 378 00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:22.799 beverage and say, drink this, it'll make you feel better. 379 00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:28.279 The prosecutor positive that once they were knocked out, that 380 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:33.680 she may have been smothered them, and then she had 381 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:36.200 to have had help to bury them in the yard. 382 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.480 I believe, but she wasn't really in a position to 383 00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:41.200 say I didn't do it, but he helped me. 384 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:49.200 Yeah, Now there's a good reason we've alluded to it 385 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.039 that you include Bert so prominently in this book, and 386 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:57.079 I'm really glad that you did, because sometimes just by 387 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:02.400 virtue of accessibility, you don't really have access like you 388 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:06.839 did with this person, with this gentleman. He's very important, 389 00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:11.079 obviously because it leads to the discovery of this little 390 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.079 old grandmother, a woman who is connected all through town 391 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:20.000 and is known as this great philanthropic, philanthropic nice lady. 392 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:24.480 So tell us about Bert Montoya and get back to 393 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:28.000 where Judy is in his life. Takes a liking to 394 00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:32.240 Bert and the incredible journey that he goes through and 395 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.480 the great effort from this good Samaritan Judy, her and 396 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:41.720 Beth and a couple other people. But tell us about 397 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:46.240 that incredible journey of Bert from in this story. 398 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:50.240 Well, I'm glad you asked about him, because Bert was 399 00:25:50.440 --> 00:25:53.279 unusual and like I say, and that he was not 400 00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:56.319 an alcoholic. But he was staying in a detox facility 401 00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.440