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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us again on

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the Seafood Matters podcast. You can help me by pressing

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subscribe and share it with family and friends. In this episode,

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I'm delighted to welcome David Pareno from a Sustainable Fisheries

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Partnership and there way known as SFP, currently working as

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a NEE you market specialist. David, Welcome the Seafood Matters.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Jim, thanks for inviting me and said you to

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be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you looking forward to or chat. Before we get going,

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please tell us about your career and the past that

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brought you to the Sustainable Fisheries Partnership and your role

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there and where you work from now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm a biologist and I've been working in

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marine conservation for and fisheries for over a decade in

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different places, different regions, Central America, Madagascar and then lately

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in Europe. I was with the Marine Stewership Council in

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the Mediterranean and now at the Sustainable Fisheries Partnership. I'm

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an EU Partnership Engagement specialist within the market STEAM and

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based in Madrid and spin and basically my work is

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with retailers, suppliers and geos and other stakeholders across the

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EU to promote sustainable seafood practices and also to drive

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market transformation across the region.

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Speaker 1: So you've pretty much done that all your working life

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so far.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, correct. Correct.

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Speaker 1: If I could ask, as a EU market still a

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global leader and promote seafood sustainability or the real lost

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this edge.

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Speaker 2: That's a good question. I think the EU has been

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a global leader. I think the illegal fishing policy and

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you know, import control and sustainability directives in generals have

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raised the bar worldwide. But I have the feeling that

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today the picture is a bit mix. EU buyers have

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influence improvements, and we have examples in West Africa, where

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you know, access to EU markets push governments to strengthen

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monitoring of the two officeries, and also in Peru where

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SFP is also very active, where the EU demanded, you know,

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to help formalize artisanal vessels. And if we consider data,

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for example, I think there's some positive things to mention too.

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If we take the last FAO report that was published

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during the United Nations Ocean Conference in this this year,

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there are some promising results there. Among the ten marine

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species with the highest landings in the in the EU,

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and we have species like anchovy, Alaska skip jack, tuna,

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and Atlantic herring. About sixty percent of these stocks are

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fished sustainably according to FAO, and then if we take

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a look at production volume, about eighty six percent of

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EU landings are supposed to come from from biological sustainable stocks,

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So I think there are some positives there. Tuna is

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especially positive with eighty seven percent of populations exploited sustainably

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and ninety nine percent of landings coming from sustainable sources.

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So I think that's a real step forward.

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Speaker 1: And how much actual improvement these are been driven by

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EU buying power versus optical optics management.

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Speaker 2: So, like I said, there are some positive things to mention,

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and I guess there's also some challenges or negative negative

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things too because I think, you know, we're responsibility lies

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when sustainability goals conflict with commercial reality. Is I'm following

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very closely as Peace followed very closely the latest EU

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Omnibus package. For those who are listening, this is a

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reform that was aim at cutting you know, red tape

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across you sustainability rules, and we think that this package

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risk to undermine that leadership that was mentioning before. With

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the way it looks now, to be honest, it seems

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like it would delay sustainability reporting EXEPT most mid size

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companies and also limit due diligence to only direct suppliers.

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So this means that serious risks like legal fishing and

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you know also labor abuses across the supply chain could

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be ignored. Even the European Central Bank has worn that,

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you know, weakening transparency makes it harder to us climate

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and financial risks. So yes, i'd say that you know,

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do you is trying to set the gold standard, but

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you know, whether it keeps it depends on you know,

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whether it pushes ahead with accountability or just waters it

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down for sure term convenience.

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Speaker 1: Basically, I think there are pretty much renowned for being

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bold in Red Tip as you mentioned Red Tip.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And I have the feeling that it's, uh,

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there's you know, we are times to at the moment,

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and I'd like to take advantage of these opportunities because

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there's there's also a broader political angle to all this,

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the feeling because now sustainability seems to be somehow tight

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to the political climate worldwide, and I think that also

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creates some ripper effect and I don't know how we

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arrived at this situation, but here we are. It seems like,

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you know, sustainability conveniments will will end up looking soon

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like some sort of parties and issue instead of of

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common sense. And I think in Europe we're not immune

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to that risk, you know, So when sustainability becomes politicized

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and and seen as a done own business, I think

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there's a real danger for that short term politics under

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mind that you know, long term environmental goals, and that

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we even lose sight of reality.

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Speaker 1: Basically, yes, and of course sustainability the word is very

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important and means a lot, but it can be pretty

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much abused as well.

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Speaker 2: Exactly exactly, and that's why the Omnibus debate that I

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was mentioning before, it's so important because initially the bar

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was quite high, and it's been lowered down progressively. So

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I think, you know, weakning reporting and utiligions might sound

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like a technical adjustment, but I think it really reflects

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political choices about how seriously we are taking sustainability in

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the EU when it conflicts with commercial or electoral pressures.

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Speaker 1: Basically, are we seeing any examples where you pressure has

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directly resulted in better fashionist management.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mentioned before West Africa and Peru. I think,

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you know, in West Africa, this region is important for

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the U for EUC food imports, especially for tuna that

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are caught by industrial fleets, and I'm thinking about countries

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like Ghana or Codvoi and Senegal, so access to EU

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markets that are required, you know, that are basically required

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to align with the UU fishing regulations and also improve

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improved flag state and poor state control. So that's that's

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a positive thing. In terms of concrete changes, maybe I

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would mention the use of v MS for tuna personers

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that has been strengthened, not that it was not done before,

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but I think this has helped you to strengthen these

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server coverage and and VMS systems into personers, title licensing

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and reporting standards to meet also you catch certification requirements

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and in general cooperation. I think this has an impact, uh,

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you know, has pushed governments and industry to professionalize a

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bit basically oversight and improve transparency through through enforcement capacity

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and that that varies the country by country of course,

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that depends on the country. And then in Peru, just

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mentioning Peru briefly, where SFP is also very very active.

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In that case, it is not to night, it's it's

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and to be you know, talking about you know, produce

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the world's largest and to be producer. And it has

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also a huge artisanal fleit targeting to Namahi and all

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the species for expert But I think in this case

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the impact UH you know, has has been important and

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has increased three stability and accountability in a segment that

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was largely largely informal so far. Not that there are

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not things that still need to be improved UH and

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and changed through through corperation, but some examples that show

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a bit of impact through through market impact, impact through market.

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Speaker 1: Suportia responsibility LI when sustainability goals conflict to commercial reality.

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Speaker 2: So I think this takes me back to the Omnibus.

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I'm mentioning the Omnibus package a lot, because, like I said,

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it's a reform that is supposed to be cutting this

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red tape that you were mentioning, Team Jim. Sorry, but

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in practice, with the way it looks now, we think

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it could delay all these sustainability reporting. There's some important

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deadlines by the end of this year and also in

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twenty twenty six, so we will see what happens. I think,

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do you show the world what's possible in general? You know,

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it's still the largest market in the world as a region,

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as a country is the US. But if this omnibus

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package rolls back, it is losing this edge that you

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were mentioning.

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Speaker 1: Do you see a future for market derive and sustainability

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or does it even exist?

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Speaker 2: No? Yeah, yeah, I think it does. Like I said,

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the EU is the largest UH seafood food market in

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in the world. If do we consider it as a

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as a region UH as as a country like I said,

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this is the US. Will see what happened with that

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with the new tariffs, and so I think that's that's

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a power that it's within the you know, the the

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EU if you want to basically, that's the message I

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guess you're sending. When you're the largest market, if you

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want to sell here, then you have to meet some

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some standards, and I think that couple with strong partnerships

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and capacity building. I think the you can make sustainability

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the norm and not the the exception. And I think

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in general market access is still the most powerful level, right.

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I think it's important and people know it.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is when it comes to a

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big market driven. I feel quite strongly here about how

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the market. Okay, we're not talking only E you here

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because we're talking about UK. It's not in the EU,

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but same principles. But we're finding the market is looking

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for well being driven for bigger fish. Let's say bigger

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fish make a bigger price and smaller fish just get

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cheaper and cheaper to the point now and probably past

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it where smaller fish are not viable for fishermen to catch. Now,

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that's not only affecting fishermen, it's affecting it's I feel strongly, David,

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that the market has to have our responsibility. I feel

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we need joined up thinking. I need. I think we

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need to get Okay, we have the authorities with enforcement,

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we have catchers, the fishers, but we have to get

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the market in as well, because we've reached this stage

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where fish of certain a certain size. Now I'll give

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you an example here, David, and this is myself. I

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was in Scrabster a boat landing. Good friend of mine

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was landing on the fish market. He's this to me,

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help yourself to some fish jam. Go help yourself so

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I says, okay, okay, thank you very much, and I

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put six haddic in a bag. He says to me,

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don't take that stuff. He says, a far better fish

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than that on the market. Here here, and he was

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just pointing to me where to go. I says, this

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is fine by me. I'll enjoy this. And it was fresh,

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and it was you could see it was good quality fish.

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Now I got home, I was fileting the fish. I

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was looking at it, and I'm thinking to myself, now,

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this is interesting because going back to the way back

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the seventies, early eighties, and maybe into the nineties as well,

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had some retail outlets and as you could imagine, the

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retail market that was the prime that was the best

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price fish that you were getting. You had the fish

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and chip trade and expert no, they would pay better money.

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But the what we called the retail trades or slab trade,

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where you the fishmongers, that was prime quality they wanted

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and they would pay good price. Now, in it's not

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in your pounds and ounces that we used to deal

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with before we converted to kilograms, we were four ounce filet.

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Now four ounce filet was a prime size for us

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and that would give the housewife for the family four

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filets to feeder family, and that would be at a

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reasonable price for the house wave. So when I had

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filleted them and I was finished, I thought, I'm interested here.

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I took my kitchen scales weighed them. The fish were

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from four and a half to five even a half ounce,

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so above them what I would say would be the

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lowest smallest we would go for. And this is for

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prime market. So, and the fish were above the legal

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landing size. Now what's important. Thirty centimeters for that species

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is a legal minimum legal landing size, and this fish

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were measured in between thirty six and thirty eight centimeters,

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so they're quite considerably above the legal market in size. David,

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do you know where I got that fish from? When

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a fisherman asked me to go somewhere to go and

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get them elsewhere? That was in the boxes they had

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for bait for the lobster and crab fishermen. Wow, because

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it couldn't sell them on the market, no buyers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think this is a critical critical point

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that you mentioned in Jim, And there's also a contradiction,

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Like you said, straight down, you know the market is

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like heavily rewarding bigger fish, and prices for large species

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or larger individuals are going up. And at the same

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time you see that the prices for smallest fish, even

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when they are, like you say, above the legal minimum

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landing sites well above that minimum size, have been dropping.

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So I think this creates a perverse incentives because fishers

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struggle to land those smaller fish because they can cover

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the costs. And I think what we need here is

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more join up thinking between fishers, markets and policy makers,

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because if the market took some responsibility and you know,

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developed outlets for these small fish, it would support fishers

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economically and reduced ways. So I think it's about changing

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them the demand as much as supply, and that's a

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work that market needs to drive. If we educate consumers,

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and that's an important part also in my opinion, to

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educate consumers and also expand markets for underutilized species and sizes,

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I think we can relieve that pressure on stocks of

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larger fisials that's a positive thing, and also ensure that

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fishers are not penalized for landing perfectly legal and sustainable catches. Basically,

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and I think here that I think I will go

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back in its question to the EU of Nibus debate.

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I think this also matters here, so because if we're

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weakening transparency, then we make it harder to track how

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pricing dynamics can affect that sustainability, and I think stronger

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reporting could actually help to design a smarter market incentives.

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Speaker 1: Let's say we find as well that by you know,

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sometimes we get as a means of conserving stocks, the

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thought it is all increase the merser size, so that

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is constantly making the first beggar. When I was a

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child and fashion with my father, the minimum the minimum

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mesh size was seventy seventy millimeters. I think it's about

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one hundred and twenty now, so it's not just gradually

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gone up a little bit. But the other thing that

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we're finding, and I've spoken to scientists about this, and

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I've actually sent them some samples so that you could

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age them. Now, we find that, yes, when you think

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of it, increasing the mesh size is good for conservation,

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but is it because what the find what we find

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now is because they've been doing that for so long,

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it's believed that the sea is absolutely full of small fish,

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and it is making more fish or competing for the

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available food, and we're finding we're not getting the growth

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in the fish the way we should. And I've talked

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a lot and sent the samples to a fishery scientists

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in Iceland. Now, so a lot of the fish I

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was sending to David, he says they were suffering from

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malnutrition and starvation. And also on the age tests, he

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came up with things like I would send them a

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fish and I would give him that although I didn't

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send him the whole fish. I would send them. He

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wanted scale samples because he could tell the age from

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the scales. And I was sending them fish and there

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was one in particular was between thirty six and thirty

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eight centimeters thirty six thirty centimeters in length, and it

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was four hundred grams in weight. And this scientist was

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telling me, if that fish is in Iceland at that age,

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he would have been over two kilos, and it was

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four hundred grams in Scotland. And there was another one

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that give him the weight for I did it from

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boards fishing different areas, so rather than just from one

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area and a system. Right, John is it's just six

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hundred and fifty grams and fifty centimeters. It looked better

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and healthier, and he took the age and he said

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that the fish was eight years old. That's another example

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of that was in Iceland, it would have been that

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way that three years old.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess it's a it's a

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balance right between. Yeah, it's delicate because it's a balance

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between gear selectivity to reduce by cats and also, you know,

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depending on the species in the area where you're fishing better,

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that also leads to these kind of risks that you've

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mentioned in them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just feel what you're saying there joined up

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thinking and just get the market on board, the city

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and the look no, no, it's not a problem for

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the fish or the authority is you're responsible as well.

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You need to come on board.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think it's also important to

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educate consumers. Sometimes you find very good fish, quality, high

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quality fish that is basically not consumed in one country

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because it's not they're not just you know, they're not

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used to that kind of fish, and so there's no

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market to that, to that fish, and they're struggling to

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sell other fish and to find low prices for those

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you know, for other fish, but they have good opportunities

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even within the country so that they don't need to

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import from long distances and you know, from other countries.

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So that's that's also an important one. And I think

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educating consumers that's also responsibility of the market, and this

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is something the market can do.

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Speaker 1: Many e retailers rely on ms C and the other

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other certifications. Is that driven change or create in a

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full sense of security?

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Speaker 2: Good question. So I think certifications, you know, are a

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good starting point. I myself work for the MSc before SFP,

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and so now they set the beastline and also give

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consumers some assurance. And I making here a difference between

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GSSI and non GSSI certification. That's important. And I guess

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they can also create and that's the risk a full

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sense of security. So you get the label and you say, okay,

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everything is fine and the job is done. In my opinion,

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some schemes may fail or are better than others to demonstrate,

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for example, social responsibility. That's an important point because if

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you cannot show that there are no human rights abuses

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across the supply chain, then you know it isn't true sustainability.

335
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In my opinion, so I don't know. In at SFP,

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what we do is takeing a risk based approach and

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that's what we do. So we help companies identify the risks,

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mitigate them, and then act when problems appear. We are

339
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not social comp lines experts, biologists and a social compliant expert,

340
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but we partner with organizations in the EU. In Europe,

341
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we have a partnership with Business and Human Rights and

342
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these guys help us, you know, they help us to

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with our partners basically to strengthen this decidles austainably.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, our certifications like MSc becoming a box ticking

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exercise or are they still relevant?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they're still relevant. That I don't in

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my opinion. The good news is that many retailers are

348
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and companies that are going beyond box sticking and this

349
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is something that we are seeing more and more often

350
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than you know. They're demanding verifiable trees ability and also

351
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requiring their suppliers to join credible improvement products, and you know,

352
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we help them in this. In this journey, we have

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a platform called Ocean Disclosure Project. People can check it

354
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out on the internet. Is free and public. Ocean Disclosure

355
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Project dot org and they will be able to see

356
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the companies that work with US and that disclose their

357
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sourcing sourcing. They make it basic public, so it's a

358
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transparency tool. I think that instead of you know, being

359
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having getting a certification is like you know, black or white,

360
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either you get it or not some you know, certified

361
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versus not certified. And I think that view is a

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black and white one, like I was saying that we

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prefer to use the terms fisheries that are well managed,

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managed or that needs improvement, because I think that color

365
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approach is a bit much closer to reality basically. And

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here again I think the omnibus going back to the

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obnibous matters because if the sustainability reporting is delayed or diluted,

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I guess companies could hide behind those shiny equo labels,

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you know, rather than hard data. There's also a you

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Green claim directive. I don't know if you heard about it,

371
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but it's supposed to point out actually the other way

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and say that you know, no vake sustainability claims without

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proof basically, and I think retailers who understand that's sustainability

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is not the cherry on top of the cake, but

375
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it's actually the flower you need to make the cake

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are the ones who will be resilient in crises. And

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we see it. We saw it with COVID, we saw

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it with economic crisis, because they understand that sustainability is

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strategic to them. And I think that's an important thing

380
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to mention.

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Speaker 1: I like your descriptions between the cherry and the lower.

382
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Does SFP have move towards more meaningful engagement beyond just labeling?

383
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Speaker 2: Yes, like I said, the Ocean Disclosure Project is an

384
00:24:39,759 --> 00:24:43,200
important platform, like like I was saying, where these companies

385
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can can disclose their sourcing and make public and we

386
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you know, we work with partners and for them to

387
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be able to disclose this disourcing all over the world

388
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and to say okay this to help them to identify

389
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the risk associated to those fishies and and to try

390
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to mitigate them. So I think we yeah, in that sense,

391
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and through this risk based approach, we you know, we're

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helping our partners to strengthen sustainability in some important areas.

393
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Speaker 1: Uh good, don't when you mentioned are you you you use?

394
00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:24,519
Are you you card in system credible? Or has it

395
00:25:24,559 --> 00:25:25,799
become politicized?

396
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Speaker 2: Maybe it has become politicized. I think the the idea

397
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behind that carding system is effective. It has forced countries

398
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to improve monitoring and you know, because they mainly risk

399
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losing access to Europe. For those who are listening and

400
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,400
are not familiar with the carding system, this is basically

401
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,480
a system where so a multi step process, you know,

402
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:50,440
where the European Commission issues formal warning so you get

403
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,599
a yellow card and the idea is to combat au

404
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,079
fishing and behind all this, so if the country at

405
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,680
the end doesn't improve that, then it becomes a red

406
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card and or your product is banned in the market.

407
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But if the country improves that, then it becomes free.

408
00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:07,680
And I think, you know, the system is not perfect,

409
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,599
but and it can feel politicized like you were mentioning,

410
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,640
and you know, small producers also struggle with the bureaucracy

411
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,759
behind this. But I think the idea is effective because

412
00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:23,079
at the end, like I was saying, you know, you

413
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,160
the market is the biggest one and if you if

414
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,839
the doors are closed to your product because things are

415
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,799
are not improved, then then I guess that's a that's

416
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:35,680
a powerful thing with of course weaknesses and things to improve.

417
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think it'sticularly fair for small producers and major players.

418
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,599
Speaker 2: So, like I said, I think the use important rules

419
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,920
have made a real difference. I think in this carding

420
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,160
system has pushed countries to improve monitoring and another another

421
00:26:50,519 --> 00:26:55,039
aspects of visheries management. But it's also true, like you're saying,

422
00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:59,759
that smaller producers, especially in developing countries, can find them.

423
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:03,480
For example, the bureaucracy is overwhelming and we know that.

424
00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:06,480
So if you don't have the capacity to tick every box,

425
00:27:06,519 --> 00:27:09,519
then you're being shut out of the EU market and

426
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:11,480
even if you're trying to play by the rules. So

427
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:17,440
and that's where the perception of partners comes in. I think, Well, I.

428
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: Think people in the in the UK can see about

429
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:24,279
the red tape and how complicated it can be because

430
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,240
it's breaks, it's full of uncertainties, it's expensive to expert

431
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,680
into the EU and it's complicated with paperwork.

432
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Brexit has complicated trade. I know for

433
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,480
sure that seafood trade and I guess it happened also

434
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,319
in other industries and not an expert on that, but

435
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,480
with the customs checks and health certificates and delays getting

436
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,960
into the U, I know that actually in Scotland, where

437
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:58,000
you're from, you know, a fishers association have reported millions

438
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,200
lost in the in the first of Brexit. I guess

439
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,440
after all these years, things are getting I wouldn't say

440
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,920
back to normal, but back to a new normal. And

441
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,119
some agreements have been made between the EU and the UK,

442
00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:11,640
but complicated.

443
00:28:12,519 --> 00:28:18,079
Speaker 1: Indeed, are these controls improving stainability which is key or

444
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,319
simply the bigger player?

445
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,799
Speaker 2: Do you mean for for the EU, right for the

446
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:25,039
EU staff?

447
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,079
Speaker 1: Yeah? Are the Yeah? Are the controls improving because improving

448
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,720
sustainability must be the end goal?

449
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think the idea for for these policies

450
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,920
is to is to align with development goals, and I

451
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,000
think I think that depends on how they are applied,

452
00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:50,119
because if the U pairs uh, like you know, street

453
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,039
controls with real support for capacity building, then I think

454
00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:57,519
they can level the playing field and also help emerging

455
00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:01,240
economies to improve the fisheries governor. But if they're applied

456
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,440
then evenly, and we see this sometimes, then the danger

457
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,119
is that we may end up reinforcing existing inequalities. You know,

458
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,920
what we will see is basically big players with resources

459
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,079
that keep trading while small scale fishers are squeezed out.

460
00:29:16,359 --> 00:29:19,079
I think maybe it's just a perception of fairness. I

461
00:29:19,079 --> 00:29:22,720
don't think it's the use intention. There's some things to

462
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:26,680
improve for sure, and weaknesses in the system. I know

463
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,359
that they use very strict with some certain countries, and

464
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,000
maybe we can have the feeling that they are more

465
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,759
soft with others that are politically or commercially important. But yeah,

466
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,359
again back to the omnibus. When these omnibus propose a

467
00:29:40,519 --> 00:29:43,720
scaling back company and dutilities, I think it's sending mixed

468
00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:46,640
sickness because you know, maybe you're very strict at the border,

469
00:29:47,119 --> 00:29:50,720
but then software with the supply chain. So just to

470
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:53,240
sum it up, I think what we need is consistency

471
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,720
controls that protect responsible fissures and also level this playing

472
00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:01,680
field so we're not creating ne loopholes like over and

473
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over again.

474
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Speaker 1: Basically, do you ever get the sense your plain global

475
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,160
policemen will turning up Blaine Dye the friendly flags or

476
00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:12,000
members did.

477
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I said, maybe I like this analogy with

478
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,599
global policemen. I don't think the U has that much power.

479
00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:23,960
I think it's a perception of unfairness. Like like I said,

480
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,799
so maybe yeah, you're super strict with some countries, are

481
00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:31,559
not with others or you're very strict at the border,

482
00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:34,640
and then you know not across the supply chain. We

483
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,440
know that seafood products travel all over the world, right

484
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,519
They can be fished in the Indian Ocean, then taken

485
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,680
somewhere to be processed, and then in another place to

486
00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:50,039
be transported and then the fly somewhere. So what happens

487
00:30:50,039 --> 00:30:52,319
in the supply chain is also important. So you can

488
00:30:52,359 --> 00:30:55,000
be super strict at the border, but you know where

489
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:58,440
is this product coming from and what is the journey

490
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,640
of this product? That's also important. I think if you know,

491
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,279
illegal fishing rules only work if they are applied fairly,

492
00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:11,079
basically and to everyone, and that's difficult in a globalized world.

493
00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:15,440
Has big challenges behind this exactly.

494
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,039
Speaker 1: I was going to go mentioned on the supply chain

495
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,960
a fresh Court and Africa process and chain and sold

496
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,680
in Germany. Well we know its.

497
00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:29,759
Speaker 2: Story, yeah, exactly. I think trade's ability, in my opinion,

498
00:31:29,799 --> 00:31:33,640
is one of the main challenges in seafood, and we've

499
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:40,160
made progress. You know, CATCH certificates and digital pilots and

500
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,079
platforms like CATCH. I don't know if you heard about CATCH.

501
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,799
It stands for centralized access to transparency and CATCH documentation

502
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,079
is basically a new digital system that has been designed

503
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:56,960
to combat are you fishing? And it's supposed to allow authorities,

504
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,519
importance and exporters to verify the legality of seafood products.

505
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:03,079
You know, it's on online, so it's paperless and the

506
00:32:03,079 --> 00:32:06,880
idea is to improve tres ability and reduce fraud also,

507
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:11,480
so we will we will see how this works when

508
00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:15,160
it's starts to be implemented, because the idea behind this

509
00:32:15,279 --> 00:32:18,880
is that only legally caught fish enter the market. But again,

510
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:21,480
like what happens with this product? Like you say, it

511
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:25,279
can be caught in Africa, process in China and sold

512
00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:28,079
in Germany. So what happened with this with this product

513
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,319
across the supply chain?

514
00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:34,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you mentioned ability with the EU. What's still message?

515
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: Good question? I think origin labeling. For example, if you

516
00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:41,000
go to the supermarket and you see product of the EU,

517
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:43,720
you know, okay, that's a product of the EU. But

518
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:46,200
what happened you know, if this product has most of

519
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,240
the value chain, has happened elsewhere? Again, going back to

520
00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:53,119
these omnibus I think is extremely important. You know these risks,

521
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,839
why doing these blind spots by extending mid says films

522
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,640
to to from reporting and the idea when when all

523
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,000
these started was to improve also also traceability. So we

524
00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:10,039
need more visibility, I think, not less and disclosure. Like

525
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:13,039
I said, I mentioned before Ocean Disclosure project that we

526
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,240
do with companies, disclosure of sourcing across the chain should

527
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,119
be mandatory. I'm not talking about our partners, I'm talking

528
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,359
in general, and you could be more ambitious on this,

529
00:33:23,599 --> 00:33:29,359
including you know, processing, because otherwise transparency and traceabilities is

530
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,839
only as strong as its weakest link. You know, if

531
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,480
if one actor doesn't disclose, then the entire change credibility

532
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,720
collapses because because you know, if nine out of ten

533
00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:41,119
are doing the right things, but one we don't know

534
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,079
because in the it's in incognito mode, then then then

535
00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:48,240
we don't know exactly what happened with that product. And

536
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:50,039
can we call it sustainable? I don't know.

537
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean mentioned transparency. Was so much processing

538
00:33:55,119 --> 00:33:58,240
done and chain, how do we manage the rest and

539
00:33:58,279 --> 00:33:59,599
ensure transparency.

540
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a good question. Like I said,

541
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,199
I think we need more visibility and and this kind

542
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,519
of disclosure should be should be mandatory. I hope that

543
00:34:11,599 --> 00:34:14,400
this catch platform from the EU and the fact that

544
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:20,039
things are becoming more and more digitalized, will help. I

545
00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:25,920
think fraud increases, the risk of fraud could increase with paper.

546
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,519
So I hope that this, you know, strengthens supply transparency

547
00:34:30,559 --> 00:34:34,840
and also ensures that only legal fish is entering markets,

548
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,360
in this case the the EU. And yeah, I hope

549
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,239
that this also traceabilities, you know, is as one of

550
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,599
the core challenges in the seafood industry is improved. In

551
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:49,239
the next years to come, we will see I think

552
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,599
gaps remain, and especially in third processing countries.

553
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: Do you feel consumers could be mis laid by original

554
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,679
labeling or over supplified sustainability messaging.

555
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,039
Speaker 2: I don't know if the word is misled because, like

556
00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:06,320
I said, if you go to a supermarket and you

557
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,000
see the product of the EU, I guess that gives

558
00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:12,800
the consumers some assurance that you know the product is

559
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,239
from from the euser. I guess this is a positive thing,

560
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,199
and it's the right, it's the truth, it's the product

561
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:24,000
of the EU. But probably when we talk about seafood,

562
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:27,760
you know, most of the value chain happens elsewhere, so

563
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,639
this leveling origin leveling can be a bit misleading. I

564
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:38,159
hope that this omnibus debate, these ricks risks get reduced

565
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,519
to a minimum, you know, and that these blind spots

566
00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:44,400
you know, are reduced. We will see, we will see.

567
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,000
I'm not super optimistic, to be honest. At the moment.

568
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 1: You're a positive guy. You come over, you come over positive.

569
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:58,679
So yeah, I understand what you're saying. That hopefully story

570
00:35:58,719 --> 00:35:59,440
will happen.

571
00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need to do in another another

572
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,199
podcast where in a in a year or two and

573
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:07,639
see and see where where we are.

574
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be good. We'll just take a lot

575
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:16,440
of that is good moving aquaculture. Is aquaculture helping relieve

576
00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:20,599
pressure on whalestock, do you feel, or just creating a

577
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,159
parallel set of sustainability issues.

578
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:26,199
Speaker 2: I think. I mean, aquaculture is part of the solution

579
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,159
because because you know, it's the fastest growing food sector globally,

580
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:34,960
so according to f a O, it's pretty much half

581
00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:39,679
of global fish consumption and it will soon or even

582
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,800
even over half, and it will soon surpass capture fisheries entirely.

583
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,559
So they need to be part of the solution because

584
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,400
because they're going to be an important part of the

585
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,880
of the seafood we consume. We already do. If people

586
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,519
go to a supermarket now, they will probably find more

587
00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:02,239
aquaculture than than than wildfish in the shelves or in

588
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,000
the in the places when when they buy seafood. For sure,

589
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,760
I think it can relieve pressure on wild stocks, and

590
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,239
I think the U has relatively strict roots on water quality,

591
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,800
animal health, and this is control and restock in But

592
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,559
but enforcement depends, and the risk is that we treat

593
00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:26,519
aquaculture as a silver ballet. Aquaculture, like any other industry,

594
00:37:26,599 --> 00:37:32,079
is not good per se. It's not silver ballet, and

595
00:37:32,519 --> 00:37:35,239
it brings its own challenges. So you know, the habitat

596
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:42,440
impacts FITS sustainability. SFP is heavily involved in this FIT sustainability, antibiotics,

597
00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:45,199
use labor rights, et cetera. So it's not I hope

598
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:50,400
it becomes the solutions, the solution, or part of the solution,

599
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,880
because soon it's going to be the vast maturity of

600
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,920
what we're eating. And when it comes to sea.

601
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,559
Speaker 1: Did you say regulation alls a culture to the same

602
00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:03,199
standard as captured fascialists.

603
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're both under the Common Fishes Policies

604
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,199
sustainability objectives, and I think there's a difference again here

605
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,800
between aquaculture of course done in the EU and outside

606
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,400
there is the Federation of European Aquaculture Produces and it

607
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,639
basically groups fish farming associations and associations, and it's that

608
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:29,400
they're the leading consultative body, let's call it for European

609
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,639
interest and I know they take all these very seriously.

610
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: Are we seeing more aquaculture entered in EU apply chains

611
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,679
without the same level of scrutiny.

612
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:43,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the risk is always there in a

613
00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:48,800
globalized economy. I was making before, the difference between you know,

614
00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:53,280
aquaculture done in the EU and aquaculture coming from from

615
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,280
other places or process else where. The risk is always there.

616
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,880
We're in a globalized economy and with different countries and

617
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,079
regions that are applaying different rules. So imports of farm

618
00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:07,800
products are rising. We also see in this and in

619
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,000
the U, and often you know from from countries that

620
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:14,239
maybe have weaker social and environmental oversight. So that's why

621
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:21,079
sustainability reporting reporting and and again threatened idea debus is

622
00:39:21,159 --> 00:39:22,599
so so crucial.

623
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. If we move on to breakxit, as the UK

624
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:30,920
going its own way, it changed how EU markets behave

625
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,159
or is it's still business as usual for them?

626
00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:37,519
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think we we We briefly mentioned Brexit before,

627
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,400
and I think you use the word complicated, and I

628
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,199
think in general Brexit has complicated trade. I am not

629
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,920
familiar with other industries, but with the seafood industry, I

630
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,480
know for good that you know, seafood exporters have have

631
00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:58,039
struggled and there's been important delays getting into the EU market,

632
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,199
but things have Time has passed since Brexit was voted,

633
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,840
and some agreement agreements have been made with the EU,

634
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,199
and I hope that the spirit seems like there's a

635
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,480
split now of collaboration between the EU and the UK

636
00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:17,719
continues because yeah, EU and UK buyers, I think they're

637
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,920
strongest when they speak with one voice, you know, even

638
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,719
though Brexit made that harder. But hopefully this will improve

639
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:25,719
in the next years to come.

640
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: It's breakshit made any material difference to how you buyers

641
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:32,280
source and influence.

642
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:40,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, sustainability, the UK now has freedom,

643
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,800
freedom putting these two in brackets to set its own

644
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,920
management plans, and you know, I know they have launch

645
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,320
schemes like the fisheries management plans under the day the

646
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,639
UK Fisheries Act. But I also feel like divergence is

647
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,159
growing in some areas. The UK is looking for or

648
00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:03,440
flexibility for some of the fleets and while the U

649
00:41:03,559 --> 00:41:07,000
S you know, sticks to quota shedding agreements under the

650
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:10,440
Trade and Comparational Agreements, so that that weekends both sides.

651
00:41:11,559 --> 00:41:15,920
But if the U and the the u K fragment

652
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:22,480
on sustainability standards, I think global supprise suppliers may face

653
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:29,199
signals mixed signals, you know, instead of United market demand.

654
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,679
And I feel like that also reduced, reduces the leverage

655
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:38,440
both uh you know, had to drive reforms abroad basically

656
00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:41,679
and and and again going back, I'm gonna mention the

657
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,039
News in its question that debates as another layer because

658
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:49,840
if the U weekends, for example, let's say, uh it's

659
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:53,760
sustainability rules, why the UK stays very ambitious or vice versa.

660
00:41:54,199 --> 00:41:59,119
I think we risk policy divergence instead of of leadership.

661
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 1: There's a perception from your side that the UK becoming

662
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,199
more agail and just inability or just more isolated.

663
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: Well, there's isolation in that independence for sure, whether and

664
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:18,079
I'm not saying is negative or positive because because it

665
00:42:18,159 --> 00:42:21,320
could split up things the you you know, there are

666
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,400
there are several countries within the EU and and coming

667
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,760
into agreements take time and sometimes these are long conversations,

668
00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:36,679
and this is stidious with heavy bureaucracy. So I guess

669
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,039
when it's only you that need to decide what to do,

670
00:42:42,119 --> 00:42:46,360
things become easier. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they

671
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,599
are positive. So when it comes to fisheries management, but

672
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,679
you know, we will see what happens in the next

673
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,639
year to come. I hope, I hope that there will

674
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:58,960
be some agreement and overlapping the decisions that are taken,

675
00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:02,400
at least in field trees management, and at least when

676
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,000
we're talking about scientific data science in general, because if

677
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,599
we're talking about stock assessments, I think it's difficult to

678
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,360
find different interpretations. You know, when a stock assessment says

679
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:18,559
that Northeast Atlantic makrel is struggling and the stock is

680
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,760
will soon collapse, there's not many things we can do

681
00:43:22,199 --> 00:43:27,320
about it other than try to reduce fishing and you know,

682
00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:33,559
manage the stock as as good as possible. Yeah, especially

683
00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:39,280
considering stocks by the way that are found between EU

684
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,519
and UK waters, because this happens, you know, we share

685
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:43,760
some of these waters.

686
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:49,199
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's an alignment between UK and efforts on

687
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,440
seafood market reform.

688
00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:57,639
Speaker 2: I don't know if alignment is the word. Like I said,

689
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,360
some fisheries management plants have been have been done in

690
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,480
the past years under the UK Fistories Act, but I

691
00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:09,000
don't know if alignment is the is the world, Like

692
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:11,519
I said, I have the feeling that the UK. I'm

693
00:44:11,559 --> 00:44:14,960
not based in the UK, but it's a feeling that

694
00:44:16,199 --> 00:44:19,440
and it's a feeling that some of the market partners

695
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,199
are are also having. The UK is pursuing flexibility basically,

696
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,760
and and you know the EU is uh sticking to

697
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,559
this quota shedding that that I was mentioning before this

698
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,960
quota shedding agreements under the Trade and Comporation Agreement that

699
00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:37,800
was signed. So we will see, we will see. I

700
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,239
hope that there's no fragmental sustainability standards between the UK

701
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,159
and the U in the next years to come. To

702
00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:45,559
be honest, I think that would be very negative for

703
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,920
the stocks that are present in our our waters, say

704
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:54,239
our EU and UK waters.

705
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,159
Speaker 1: Well with a substance. Just know, we certainly see there's

706
00:44:57,199 --> 00:45:03,639
a lot govern rather than shared because certainly in Scotland here,

707
00:45:03,679 --> 00:45:06,679
but in the UK and general, we see the fish

708
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:12,039
that Stammar gave away and the rapes gave away for

709
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,719
over twelve years and we didn't feel. There's not a

710
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,679
lot of feeling that we got much back in return.

711
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think Brexit has complicated all this,

712
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,719
And I don't know. I mean, I'm not blaming Brexit

713
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,360
as a solidly because of this, but I think and

714
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,920
again I think in the in the past year, things

715
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,599
that have soften a bit and some agreements have been

716
00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:40,679
made that Yeah, I understand why why you're saying, Jim,

717
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,000
and yeah, I think it's probably.

718
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked a lot about what's wrong, but where

719
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,159
there's real opportunity.

720
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: Between the the the UK and the U.

721
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, un global and global.

722
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: H that's a good question. I think there's some opportunities

723
00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:08,239
in generally moving from a narrow compliance mindset to maybe

724
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:12,159
a broader leadership role. I think markets and that's the

725
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,039
work I do on a daily basis. I think market

726
00:46:14,199 --> 00:46:17,760
with through our partners, they can demand better data. For example,

727
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,679
they can they can reward improvement products talking about fisheries

728
00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:26,079
improvement products FIPS, and also support innovation and they can

729
00:46:26,119 --> 00:46:28,800
also highlight the you know, the social or human side

730
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,440
of things that we were mentioning before and I'm thinking

731
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,079
about social responsibility and fishers rise and fair working conditions.

732
00:46:36,119 --> 00:46:39,280
So I don't know. I think the future of market

733
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:48,199
driven sustainability goes through transparency, climate accountability, and maybe joint investment.

734
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,000
So with all the stakeholders that are present in the

735
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,880
in this industry, interesting.

736
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: If you had five minutes with the next EU Fascialist commissioner,

737
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,199
what would you say?

738
00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 2: Five minutes only, I'll have to summarize a lot. If

739
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:12,159
I had five minutes, I'd say a few things. I'd say, Well, first,

740
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,920
don't backtrack. We've been talking a lot in this podcast

741
00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:20,440
about the famous obnibus. Don't backtrack. The omnibus may simplify,

742
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:23,599
but you know, if it backtracks and sustainability reporting, I

743
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:27,280
think we will lose credibility. And that was not the

744
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:32,039
initial idea. There were two directives, important directives, the Corporate

745
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:37,719
Sustainability Reporting Directive and the Due Diligence Directive that must

746
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,920
remain strong. In my opinion, they are the backbone of

747
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,599
transparency and so I would say, please, please, just make

748
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:49,039
don't backtrack and make compliances simpler for small and medium

749
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:51,360
medium companies so that this is not seen as a

750
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:56,280
burden to all these companies. Then probably, like we also

751
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,679
mentioned in the podcast, to go beyond voluntary. I think

752
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,440
some things are voluntary and should be mandatory. Make this

753
00:48:03,559 --> 00:48:08,920
closure mandatory with climate accountability also integrated into the supply Chaine,

754
00:48:09,159 --> 00:48:12,679
this is something that you can do. Investment, we briefly

755
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:16,000
touch on this, but I think investing in blended finance

756
00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:19,119
is important, you know, using we see a lot of

757
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:25,119
private you know, investment and money going into different projects,

758
00:48:25,159 --> 00:48:28,480
but using public money to leverage this private investment could

759
00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:31,440
be a positive thing. We will see if this is

760
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,280
a reality or not. And I'm talking about EU funding

761
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,159
him especially then well maybe I guess this is not

762
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,039
for the for the officeries commissioner, but I think empower

763
00:48:43,159 --> 00:48:46,119
markets to lead. I think that we also mentioned today

764
00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:52,159
that markets have a big power and can change things.

765
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,440
And last, maybe last, but not least and again here

766
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,159
maybe not to him because it's not a demand, but

767
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,559
I always I'm sure you will agree, Jim, and and

768
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:05,480
to never forget that you know what what we have

769
00:49:05,599 --> 00:49:09,679
in the supermarket selves is you know, it's there. I'm

770
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,039
talking about seafood is there because it's been fished by

771
00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:17,280
fishers and that's a hard work. So yeah, it's important

772
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,079
to highlight this and and never forget it. I think

773
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:23,000
it's important to make sure that they have what they

774
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,719
need and that their rights are respected because it's it's

775
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,519
a hard work and and and this guys do a

776
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,880
very hard and they just work for for us to

777
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,880
have seafood in a supermarket.

778
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, good. What are the most effective livers the

779
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,119
EU could pull to drive reform globally?

780
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we mentioned before that the have The

781
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,519
weight that the EU has is important because it's the

782
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,000
as one market is the world's biggest seafood important by

783
00:49:53,119 --> 00:49:55,559
by value if we you know, if we consider by

784
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:58,599
by countries, is the US is number one, But so

785
00:49:58,599 --> 00:50:01,440
so market access is still the more powerful lever in

786
00:50:01,519 --> 00:50:04,800
and in this case in the you the messages, that

787
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,559
is you, if you want to have your seafood here,

788
00:50:08,639 --> 00:50:11,800
then you have to meet some some some standards and

789
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,559
and and that's where the you know, this is why uh,

790
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,880
I think the you could be more ambitious because they

791
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,400
have they have power too, you know, and and that

792
00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:25,039
coupled with other stuff and we mentioned partnerships, we mentioned

793
00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:29,039
capacity building in our previous questions. I think this could

794
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,960
push the you to to make sustainability to Norman not

795
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:37,320
the exception, and to drive change basically through through the

796
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:43,320
weight that this region has in the seafood industry worldwide.

797
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: Basically, are there examples of bold market leadership from me

798
00:50:48,159 --> 00:50:51,119
you buyers that others should follow.

799
00:50:51,519 --> 00:50:55,039
Speaker 2: Yes, we mentioned before the Ocean Disclosure project. I think

800
00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:58,880
this is something something that is there. It's important to remember.

801
00:50:59,199 --> 00:51:03,280
And some retailers are decigdning to to to publishing. You know,

802
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,400
they're sourcing data through through this initiative. Some some others

803
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,840
that are working with us that they are demanding not

804
00:51:11,039 --> 00:51:15,159
like we said, not just certifications, but they are getting

805
00:51:15,199 --> 00:51:19,039
more and more active in fisheries improvement projects in Philps

806
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,400
And I think that's that's that's bold because it goes

807
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,800
beyond the meme. So so it's pushing the whole supply

808
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,280
chain to improve. Small steps, but I think little but little,

809
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:35,960
we're seeing some improvements. And I think this these kind

810
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,559
of steps done by big important retailers send a signal

811
00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:43,760
to to producers to so because like we said, if

812
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:45,760
you want a shelf space in Europe, then you need

813
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:47,920
to be part of the solution, and you know, not

814
00:51:48,119 --> 00:51:51,679
just compliant on paper. That's the way I see it.

815
00:51:52,159 --> 00:51:57,599
Speaker 1: Do you see a future for market driven sustainability driven

816
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,360
as I know we've talked for, but you see an

817
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,480
opportunity that it can be market driven.

818
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we we touch on these points during

819
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:15,320
the this podcast. I think the opportunities in moving from

820
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:20,159
a compliant mindset to to to a leadership role, and

821
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,679
I think that's an important also competitive advantage actually for

822
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,119
these companies if they want to differentiate themselves from from

823
00:52:30,159 --> 00:52:35,159
other companies. Markets can demand better data, they can reward fishing,

824
00:52:36,199 --> 00:52:39,199
you know, improvement products, and can support innovation. But they

825
00:52:39,199 --> 00:52:43,079
can also highlight, like we said we said before, social

826
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,519
responsibility and and you know the human side of things

827
00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:52,320
like fisher rights and for working conditions. So basically three

828
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,719
three main points transparency I would say, and climate, accountability

829
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,880
and probably joint investment. That's the way I see the future,

830
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,039
you know, this market driven sustainability in the next years

831
00:53:05,079 --> 00:53:06,239
to come. Home.

832
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: Markets influence fashion is a stainability and practice.

833
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 2: I think markets, you know, market companies and markets in general.

834
00:53:16,079 --> 00:53:18,760
And I'm thinking about the companies that we work with

835
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:24,079
and our partners. They can be involved in fisheries sustainability

836
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:30,960
at different levels. We SFPs heavily involved in fips and

837
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,039
there are some quite a lot of fips at a

838
00:53:34,039 --> 00:53:40,679
global level. And these fips have you know, points that

839
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,159
should be improved and things that should be improved, and

840
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,920
these improvements and are done over time, and sometimes some

841
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,079
of these companies decide to be involved in these fisheries

842
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:55,400
improvement products. I think the same happens with fishes that

843
00:53:55,519 --> 00:54:01,000
are certified. Some of these fisheries get certified, but they

844
00:54:01,599 --> 00:54:04,960
have some conditions. Most of them actually when they get certified,

845
00:54:05,039 --> 00:54:08,360
have conditions that should be improved. So there are ways

846
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,000
to be involved to make sure that you know, to

847
00:54:11,199 --> 00:54:15,079
follow upon that and make sure that those conditions are

848
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:18,039
are being improved over time and that they will be

849
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:23,360
closed and solved before the next certification cycle. We mentioned

850
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:28,559
also before the Ocean Disclosure project. There are some initiatives

851
00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:32,199
out there that you know, where markets could be could

852
00:54:32,199 --> 00:54:36,320
be involved and that could actually make a difference if

853
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,039
they join this movement in the water.

854
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: Actually, what your views the expectation from buyers, retailers and

855
00:54:44,119 --> 00:54:48,679
consumers and how these pressures ship escialist management.

856
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:53,519
Speaker 2: I think buyers, you know, retailers and consumers. They all

857
00:54:53,559 --> 00:54:58,079
play a huge role in shaping how fisheries are managed.

858
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:04,000
So when retail set, for example, high standards on sustainability,

859
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,199
treasability or labor rights that we mentioned before, I think

860
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,880
those expectations can you know, cascade down the supply chain

861
00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:19,000
and push producers to improve. So and consumers also matter

862
00:55:19,079 --> 00:55:22,920
in this case when when they demand responsibly source seafood,

863
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,800
you know they're at the end of this long supply chain.

864
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:30,079
It gives retailers them the confidence to make stronger commitments.

865
00:55:30,079 --> 00:55:33,239
I think the create tailors in general are open to

866
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:37,239
see what consumers want and they are open to make

867
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,719
changes to adapt to those to those demands. So consumers

868
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:49,039
have an extremely high power to decide changes when it

869
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:53,719
comes to sustainability and also in other areas. But talking

870
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,280
about sustainability, of course, the pressure can cut both ways.

871
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,800
And you know, if if the focus is only on,

872
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,280
for example, on low prices, that reach incentives to cut corners.

873
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,280
And but when markets reward good practices, and I think

874
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,920
we've seen you know, we've mentioned examples in this podcast today,

875
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,280
I think it sends a very strong message that that

876
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,960
sustainable fisheries are not just good for the ocean in

877
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,440
a very simplified and maybe naive way. But they are

878
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,920
good for business too. And this is this is something

879
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,440
that is you know, it's it's important to adapt the

880
00:56:26,519 --> 00:56:32,000
language to the market and to make sure that the

881
00:56:32,159 --> 00:56:34,559
thing happens in the water.

882
00:56:34,639 --> 00:56:40,119
Speaker 1: Like we said before, indeed, indeed that's good. What's your

883
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:46,320
view on the sustainable facialist partner view on social responsibility

884
00:56:46,559 --> 00:56:48,239
and human rights and seafood?

885
00:56:49,159 --> 00:56:56,079
Speaker 2: So this is an extremely extremely dedicate, an important subject.

886
00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:00,320
Like I said before, we are not experts on you know,

887
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,000
human rights, and but we try to learn about this

888
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,519
and get more familiar with this. Also, we started to

889
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:10,639
partnership with business and human rights and the GEO that

890
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:16,079
is helping us to to have to to learn about

891
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,960
how to proceed and this is what we are also advising

892
00:57:20,039 --> 00:57:24,760
our partners. So how to identify a risk, how to

893
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,960
make sure that you know to mitigate it also, but

894
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,559
then what to do when when this problem arises. I'm

895
00:57:32,599 --> 00:57:35,719
talking about human rights. Yeah, it's a delicate thing. There

896
00:57:35,719 --> 00:57:40,039
are some examples out there, and you know, serious human

897
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:44,400
rights violations all over the world, not only in fisheries

898
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,119
but also in aquaculture for example, in some areas, and

899
00:57:47,159 --> 00:57:52,480
it's important to we're not experts. Certifications can offer some

900
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,360
level of confidence, but again some of them fail to

901
00:57:56,519 --> 00:57:59,440
verify that, you know, human rights abusinesses are not happening.

902
00:57:59,679 --> 00:58:03,480
It's a delicate point. More and more often, people and

903
00:58:03,519 --> 00:58:06,719
I think consumers are also realizing that it doesn't matter

904
00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:11,199
if the product is sustainable, if it's coming from a place,

905
00:58:11,719 --> 00:58:15,239
for example, where kids are are working, you know, or

906
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,400
there are some slaves on board of some of the vessels,

907
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,719
like we've seen in some areas of the Southeast Asian

908
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,599
So so, yeah, and dedicate an important point.

909
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 1: I had a request by a whistle bluer want expose

910
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:39,280
a situation. People contacted them from a farm and then

911
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:47,199
the and it didn't I didn't push it, but they disappeared.

912
00:58:47,639 --> 00:58:53,840
But it was really horrible, you know, sort of quid what.

913
00:58:54,039 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: In Yeah, yeah, you know, some some journalists like Ian Urbina.

914
00:59:03,159 --> 00:59:05,599
I don't know if you heard about the work is

915
00:59:05,639 --> 00:59:12,440
done through the Outlaw Report, Uh, you know, the found

916
00:59:12,559 --> 00:59:15,719
you know, important human rights abuses in the in the

917
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,440
fishery sector. And I think this has opened the eyes

918
00:59:18,519 --> 00:59:21,320
to to some companies too. I think the message for

919
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,639
them here and I don't think these companies. They know

920
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,280
it and they go ahead with business as usual. But

921
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,840
what we try to tell them is that it's important

922
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,239
to identify your risks and try to mitigate them because

923
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:41,679
otherwise the reputational risks that this represents is huge, is important,

924
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,519
and so it's better to act now, uh, to to

925
00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:48,639
to try to mitigate those risks than to wait and

926
00:59:48,679 --> 00:59:53,360
then see yourself involving in a difficult situation. And we've

927
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,239
seen also these in other industries like text type.

928
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:01,199
Speaker 1: So who did you say was the person or something?

929
01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:07,079
Speaker 2: Ian Urbina is A is a jan journalist Ian Robina Urbina,

930
01:00:07,239 --> 01:00:09,039
you are b I n A.

931
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:14,039
Speaker 1: You are b I? Thank you A look that up.

932
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. The the Outlaw Ocean Report or the Outlaw Ocean Project,

933
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,159
I think it was is giving a lot of details

934
01:00:23,119 --> 01:00:26,400
about human rights abuses in the seafood industry.

935
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:31,679
Speaker 1: Excellent, Thank you, David. Where can our listeners follow you online?

936
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:36,519
Speaker 2: So they can I'm very active on LinkedIn. If they

937
01:00:36,519 --> 01:00:42,000
want to take a look at my LinkedIn profile, uh,

938
01:00:42,079 --> 01:00:46,199
they can contact me through through my profile poke. I

939
01:00:46,239 --> 01:00:48,400
will be also at the end of this month in

940
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:54,039
the Global Seafood Alliance Conference in Karta in Colombia. In

941
01:00:54,159 --> 01:00:57,039
case any of our you know, those who are listening

942
01:00:57,519 --> 01:01:01,239
will be there. They can also text me and I'll

943
01:01:01,239 --> 01:01:03,639
be happy to meet them if they have any questions.

944
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,679
Speaker 1: Excellent. I think we could fold up and I would

945
01:01:06,679 --> 01:01:09,079
just like to thank you very much, David. I enjoyed that.

946
01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you very much