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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good evening, Robert Maudsley casually walked into the cell of
Speaker 6: another inmate who was sleeping on his bunk, face down.
Speaker 6: A savage rage quickly took over and Mosley starts stabbing
Speaker 6: the back of the man's head. There was blood, pieces
Speaker 6: of brain, and chunks of hair flying in a fury.
Speaker 6: After the man went limp, Modsley grabbed the man's head
Speaker 6: and held it in both palms and started to smash
Speaker 6: it against the walls of the cell so hard that
Speaker 6: the plaster began to fall off the ceiling. Nurses and
Speaker 6: guards had to watch on, not being able to get
Speaker 6: into the cell, hearing the victim's head crack each time
Speaker 6: it was smashed against the wall. After Modsley finished with
Speaker 6: the attack, he sat the limp body up against the bed,
Speaker 6: got down on his knees and started to eat chunks
Speaker 6: of the brain with his homemade knife. Robert Modsley was
Speaker 6: dubbed Hannibal the Cannibal on account of his thirst for
Speaker 6: eating the brains of his victims. He is one of
Speaker 6: the most interesting and thought provoking murderers in prison. He
Speaker 6: will be housed in a Bullefrooit cage in the basement
Speaker 6: of Wakefield Prison, England, where Briton holds its most savage,
Speaker 6: high profile convicts. He is known to be such a
Speaker 6: danger to others, even inmates. He lives in a specially
Speaker 6: designed cell that doesn't allow him any contact with anyone
Speaker 6: except for guards that slide his food through a small
Speaker 6: hole at the bottom of his cell. Robert Maudsley is
Speaker 6: deemed to be the most dangerous prisoner in Britain, even
Speaker 6: though he only killed one person outside of prison. His
Speaker 6: remaining victims were claimed while incarcerated. This book reviews Maudsley's
Speaker 6: life from his tormented childhood, his rage filled murder outside
Speaker 6: of prison, and the planned tortuous murders of three convicted pedophiles.
Speaker 6: The book that we're featuring this evening is Hannibal the Cannibal,
Speaker 6: The True Story of Robert Madsley, with my special guest journalist,
Speaker 6: author and radio co host Alan R. Warren. Welcome back
Speaker 6: to the program and thank you very much for Greenness interview.
Speaker 6: Alan R. Warren.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me on.
Speaker 6: Thank you once again Alan for coming on and presenting
Speaker 6: us with such a bizarre and unusual tale. Hannibal. The
Speaker 6: cannibal always gets people interested when you mentioned cannibalism for
Speaker 6: some reason. So let's just get right get to this.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about Robert Maudsley was born
Speaker 6: in June nineteen fifty three and in Liverpool. Tell us
Speaker 6: about the living conditions his parents, Robert and Jean, and
Speaker 6: his siblings. Tell us a little bit about the family
Speaker 6: life and before you talk about them being placed into adoption.
Speaker 4: Well, he was definitely one of those that had a
Speaker 4: rough childhood. They were in Liverpool, but South Park, which
Speaker 4: is talks death. That is an area where there's a
Speaker 4: lot of social housing for World War two families and
Speaker 4: relocated immigrants and stuff, so it's a pretty it's a
Speaker 4: pretty poor area and run down. Now. He was one
Speaker 4: of twelve kids, so there was a lot of kids
Speaker 4: in the family, but not a good good upbringing. He
Speaker 4: ended up in an orphanage. I think three times in
Speaker 4: his young life, and once he was taken away by
Speaker 4: social services, so it was kind of a poor upbringing.
Speaker 4: He he claims that his father would beat him, beat
Speaker 4: him with a pole, with sticks, even a rifle, a
Speaker 4: twenty two caliber, and he also claims that he would
Speaker 4: be locked in his room for months at a time.
Speaker 4: He also claimed that his father had raped him. So
Speaker 4: in his claims or explanations of his young life, it
Speaker 4: was pretty struggled right from the get go, like I said,
Speaker 4: in and out of all sorts of different orphanages and
Speaker 4: a Catholic church, and it was a pretty rough start.
Speaker 6: You write that before he was two, and this has
Speaker 6: to add to his psychological background and make up. Before
Speaker 6: he was two, his parents had placed Robert and three
Speaker 6: of his siblings in a Roman Catholic orphanage, or that
Speaker 6: actually not placed them, They were taken due to claims
Speaker 6: of neglect, the parental neglect. So this was a Robert
Speaker 6: Paul Kevin and his sister Brenda, and they lived at
Speaker 6: this Nazareth house for you right to almost six or
Speaker 6: seven years. But they said they were acclaimed they were
Speaker 6: treated well by authorities. This is a new one for
Speaker 6: true crime. Listeners. They were treated well by authorities at
Speaker 6: the orphanage and they had a pretty good family bond
Speaker 6: according to them, to their reports, and then the parents
Speaker 6: brought them back home. And you say that Robert was
Speaker 6: especially targeted by the abusive father. You say not only rape,
Speaker 6: but beatings and sexual abuse, but he seemed to be
Speaker 6: especially targeted from his father for abuse. What's next for
Speaker 6: Robert Maudsley at a young age? What does he do
Speaker 6: and what does he resort to?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know, And it is true. They did
Speaker 4: say that they really enjoyed the one orphanage and had
Speaker 4: bonds and stuff, and even his brother made the claim
Speaker 4: that when the parents would come visit them, he felt
Speaker 4: like they were strangers. They were just people that they
Speaker 4: knew nothing about. So it was a totally different and
Speaker 4: lifestyle all of them. But by the time Robert was sixteen,
Speaker 4: he decided to head to London, you know, got away
Speaker 4: from home and went to the big city and he
Speaker 4: ended up living, you know, on the street and doing
Speaker 4: drugs and getting involved in life as a rent boy.
Speaker 4: So he would sell himself for sex to men with
Speaker 4: money and he continued doing that for a few years.
Speaker 4: And during that time, he overdosed, he attempted suicide, he
Speaker 4: ended up in rehab. Like life was not any better there.
Speaker 4: He was just on his own in a big city
Speaker 4: and had control over the money he was making. So
Speaker 4: there was no more parents or orphans to decide where
Speaker 4: he'd eat, or where he'd live or sleep, or who
Speaker 4: he'd be with. So it wasn't getting any better. It
Speaker 4: was just continuing how it was at home. But he
Speaker 4: was on his own.
Speaker 6: You're right that he was free by nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 6: In that he was not. He was in and out
Speaker 6: of various hospitals, but you say he was free by
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy three, and again working as a prostitute rent boy,
Speaker 6: and then he meets up with a person named John Ferrell.
Speaker 6: Tell us about this meeting and what happens.
Speaker 4: Well, John Farrell had recently divorced from his wife, and
Speaker 4: John Ferrell had a bisexual tendency, so that caused a
Speaker 4: lot of problems in his marriage. So he was recently single,
Speaker 4: and so he would go down to the main streets
Speaker 4: of London and pick up rent boys, and Robert was
Speaker 4: one of them. And he liked raw because not only
Speaker 4: in his looks, his body frame, but his mannerisms and
Speaker 4: his behavior. So he really enjoyed being with Robert, and
Speaker 4: they probably were together almost every week for about five
Speaker 4: to six months. John Ferrell would pick him up whenever
Speaker 4: he got back from work. He was kind of a
Speaker 4: labor or construction person, so he would go away on jobs.
Speaker 4: So now the one time in nineteen seventy three, probably
Speaker 4: there I don't know how many dates they'd already had
Speaker 4: by then, quite a few. He picked him up and
Speaker 4: took him home. And this time it was different. After
Speaker 4: they started being together for a little while, John got
Speaker 4: up and pulled out of his drawer a big pile
Speaker 4: of pictures of a younger boys and they were in
Speaker 4: different sexual positions and they were being were being hard
Speaker 4: to describe in the pictures, they were being forced to
Speaker 4: do things. It was it was the pictures portrayed that
Speaker 4: they were being raped. I'm not sure that they were
Speaker 4: real rapes or real bondage pictures, but that's what they portrayed. Now,
Speaker 4: according to Maudsley, he he was forced to look at
Speaker 4: them and he he was John Farrell was trying to
Speaker 4: have sex with him involving these pictures, and that, uh,
Speaker 4: it was too close to home, and I think it
Speaker 4: brought him back to the time where he was, you know,
Speaker 4: being raped and assaulted by his father and being attacked
Speaker 4: and and he had a real, uh, real psychological problem
Speaker 4: dealing with this, and so he blew off Blue a stack.
Speaker 4: He went he went crazy, and he ended up attacking
Speaker 4: John Ferrell and killing him.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 4: So, and of course that's how he first got arrested
Speaker 4: for a murder and was put on trial.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you talk about that. He was arrested, but he
Speaker 6: was deemed unfit, considered unfit to stand trial and sent
Speaker 6: to the I don't know, I guess infamous Broadmoor Hospital
Speaker 6: for the criminally insane. Now with fast forward, unless we
Speaker 6: can talk about Broadmoor Hospital, but tell us about Brodmore
Speaker 6: Hospital where he is placed and then nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 6: what happens with Robert and a fellow inmate, David Cheeseman.
Speaker 4: Right, Well, you know what I can say about Broadmore
Speaker 4: is broad Moore is a very strict, structured, well run
Speaker 4: hospital for insane criminals. So these are all people that
Speaker 4: have committed primes. So this isn't just for people that
Speaker 4: are are insane. Period, You've had to have done something
Speaker 4: so he was placed in there. Now I want to
Speaker 4: bring up this because this is this is very important
Speaker 4: later in the story, and I think it's a part
Speaker 4: that you don't want to miss, you know. You see
Speaker 4: when he talked about how much he enjoyed his time
Speaker 4: in the orphanage and uh and this this relates to
Speaker 4: this the hospital. He loved being in hospital. He loved
Speaker 4: checking himself in as well. In his time as a
Speaker 4: rent boy, I think he found life outside of a
Speaker 4: hospital uncontrollable and he felt he felt tortured, you know,
Speaker 4: with his parents, with his family in London, being a
Speaker 4: rent boy, all all of outside life was was just
Speaker 4: wild to him and he couldn't seem to rein it
Speaker 4: in and it cost him to do a lot of drugs.
Speaker 4: When he was in the hospitals, he felt very at peace,
Speaker 4: at ease, and he felt like his life was structured
Speaker 4: and he seemed to really enjoy that lifestyle. So going
Speaker 4: to Broadmore was something that he really liked and he
Speaker 4: wanted to stay there. He did not want to go
Speaker 4: anywhere else. And I think that's important to say because
Speaker 4: according to him, throughout the story, you'll hear that crimes
Speaker 4: that he committed a lot of times he used that
Speaker 4: as his kind of his original plan of why he
Speaker 4: did it like that that was kind of his goal
Speaker 4: was to get to a hospital. So it's a bizarre
Speaker 4: way of looking at things. But as you go through
Speaker 4: and if you read the book, you'll read in parts
Speaker 4: where he sort of talks about that a lot.
Speaker 6: You know, Now, despite what you're saying about that, he
Speaker 6: was at you know, at peace, at peace or more
Speaker 6: so anyway at peace in this hospital nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 6: and there's a person named David Francis. Now Robert and
Speaker 6: fellow inmate David Cheeseman know David Francis as a convicted pedophile,
Speaker 6: but also you right that he had been They had
Speaker 6: said that he had sexually assaulted, that David Francis had
Speaker 6: sexually assaulted a friends, a friend of theirs. Now, I say,
Speaker 6: despite this peace that had overcome Robert Maudsley, what does
Speaker 6: he and David Cheeseman do one day in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, well, in reference to the piece too, I
Speaker 4: think in his mind he thought he was he had
Speaker 4: life in control when he was in the hospital, So
Speaker 4: it didn't mean that he didn't want to kill so
Speaker 4: I don't want you to think that what I'm thinking.
Speaker 4: What I'm saying is, see, he had a real issue
Speaker 4: with the first person killed and what got him into
Speaker 4: the hospital, John Ferrell, because of the abuse of children.
Speaker 4: David Francis was the same way. He was a convicted pedophile,
Speaker 4: so they became aware of him because of raping a friend.
Speaker 4: But it was this pedophilia that really drew and drove
Speaker 4: Maudsley into wanting to kill him. Wanted him to punish him.
Speaker 4: So when the two of them, Cheeseman and Maudsley grabbed Francis,
Speaker 4: they had pre planned this and they had taken apart
Speaker 4: little pieces of a radio so they could plug the
Speaker 4: lock of the office. So what they did was they
Speaker 4: grabbed him and dragged him into the office and broke
Speaker 4: the lock off so that people couldn't get in. So
Speaker 4: the nurses and the few guards there and a lot
Speaker 4: of the inmates see in and could hear what was
Speaker 4: going on, but they couldn't get in. So they had
Speaker 4: sort of preset this up, and so what they did
Speaker 4: was they tied him and they tortured him, and they
Speaker 4: made him in great deal of pain and scream out
Speaker 4: and yell, and they did this for about eight to
Speaker 4: nine hours, and then they grouted him, or Maudsley himself
Speaker 4: garrouted him on the throat. So that's how they killed him.
Speaker 4: So the whole intention was to make him feel punished,
Speaker 4: to torture him, and to make him feel a pain
Speaker 4: for what he inflicted into the kids when he was
Speaker 4: convicted pedophile. So that was his goal behind that. He wasn't.
Speaker 4: It's just really hard to explain in that way. I'm
Speaker 4: just trying to put you in his mind of he
Speaker 4: thought he was doing something good.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you talk about this, the horror of these people,
Speaker 6: the nurses, the guards and the other inmates listening to
Speaker 6: this man's screams for almost the entire nine hours, and
Speaker 6: you say they were punching, kicking, and cutting him with
Speaker 6: their homemade knives they made from this radio and these
Speaker 6: plastic spoons that they had. And this is the other
Speaker 6: thing they'd had. They had plastic known plastic knives, but
Speaker 6: they had plastic spoons. But if they fashioned them a
Speaker 6: certain way, cut them down the middle, they'd have the
Speaker 6: equivalent of a knife in prison terms. What happens with
Speaker 6: them with the David Francis after they garat him and
Speaker 6: make sure that he's absolutely dead. What else happens after
Speaker 6: that concerning Robert Maudsley.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, with that, they were both arrested and
Speaker 4: charged with murder, and this time what they did was
Speaker 4: they give them a criminal trial, so they were both
Speaker 4: convicted and held accountable. So in the UK, he wasn't
Speaker 4: found you know, criminally insane like their version of that.
Speaker 4: So the big change was this was the second killing
Speaker 4: that he had done. So what they ended up doing
Speaker 4: was sending him to a regular prison. And of course
Speaker 4: they didn't just choose a regular, average prison. They put
Speaker 4: him in a category A prison which is for the killers,
Speaker 4: the worst killers. And actually the people in Wakefield are
Speaker 4: usually the most notorious. They are the worst of the worst,
Speaker 4: and in some cases they are just the most popular.
Speaker 4: People that have garnered a lot of media attention are
Speaker 4: also put in there. So it is the you know,
Speaker 4: the highest and the roughest prison. And so he was
Speaker 4: sentenced to there in July of nineteen seventy eight, and
Speaker 4: he absolutely hated it and he just couldn't take it.
Speaker 4: He hated the life there and he wanted to go
Speaker 4: back to Broadmoor. He wanted to go back to the
Speaker 4: hospital where he felt in his mind at peace.
Speaker 6: So sorry, let's go back though, because what we have
Speaker 6: to determine is he comes to Wakefield with his reputation,
Speaker 6: with these nicknames, with this mythology behind him, this unusual
Speaker 6: event that happened with this murder. And when I asked
Speaker 6: you what happened next, and we talked about they were arrested,
Speaker 6: but we didn't talk about the horror, the very first thing,
Speaker 6: that the thing that cemented him into true crime history.
Speaker 6: What else was done? And what did the guards find
Speaker 6: and where does he get this reputation from?
Speaker 4: Okay, well, you know during the murder, a lot of
Speaker 4: the prison guards and a lot of the nurses and
Speaker 4: and and and other inmates were able to see it
Speaker 4: as well as hear it. And so what happened was
Speaker 4: how do I say this? He he would he would
Speaker 4: get accused of being like eating parts of the body,
Speaker 4: and and that came from one of the guards, and
Speaker 4: you know, so they ended up calling him what spoons
Speaker 4: I believe was the first next nickname, and then blew
Speaker 4: and it was never confirmed, but what it was was
Speaker 4: when he when you were reading the opening description, you
Speaker 4: know that the head was sliced open and spoon was
Speaker 4: placed into the brain of the victim, and one of
Speaker 4: the guards had claimed that he saw Maudsley eating the brain,
Speaker 4: but Maudsley denied that claim and said that what he
Speaker 4: did was he did this because he wanted to be
Speaker 4: found insane and.
Speaker 6: Said that back to Broadmoor Hospital obviously.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, right, So because he thought that that makes
Speaker 4: him knuts, that makes them insane. If he does something
Speaker 4: like that, he hasn't got his right mind. So it's
Speaker 4: not something that would you would put a person in
Speaker 4: prison for. So his intention was to kill this man
Speaker 4: and make it look like he was insane while killing
Speaker 4: him and eating the brain. And so this sort of
Speaker 4: would send him back to a mental institute like Broadmoor.
Speaker 4: He's not going to be kept in a prison.
Speaker 6: Right now, you talk about the he sentenced to life
Speaker 6: imprisonment and he sent to Wakefield and he has his reputation.
Speaker 6: Now this is July nineteen seventy eight. This is only
Speaker 6: not much more than a year later, right did He
Speaker 6: started making the start of the day by making paper
Speaker 6: coffins and placing human hair inside them, and he targets
Speaker 6: someone named Selney Darwood tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: Sonny Darwood and what happens that morning between them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well Darwood was another convicted you know, pedophile and
Speaker 4: rapist and this was again a target of his no
Speaker 4: matter what. And so Sell Darwood was the forty six
Speaker 4: year old and he was one of many that Monestlely
Speaker 4: had targeted. So it isn't just a random act. But
Speaker 4: he would in the morning after the workout, he would
Speaker 4: he would go out looking for people and and he
Speaker 4: tried to lure a few of the people that he
Speaker 4: had targeted into his cell, you know, with different reasons,
Speaker 4: you know, drugs or who knows. Sell Darwood. He was
Speaker 4: able to get back into a cell. We're not sure
Speaker 4: exactly why, but Maudsley quickly stabbed him and in the
Speaker 4: back and the neck, the head, and when he fell
Speaker 4: on the floor he was bleeding. He rolled him over
Speaker 4: and then he stabbed him again in the chest in
Speaker 4: the face, so he really you know, he was a
Speaker 4: real rage killing. And then then to finish it all off,
Speaker 4: he had strings that he had hidden under his mattress,
Speaker 4: kind of like shoe string styles, and so he wrapped
Speaker 4: it around his neck and he held it for several
Speaker 4: minutes because he wanted to make sure he was dead.
Speaker 4: And so after that, of course, he tied it into
Speaker 4: a bowl, a bowl, you know, like a you know,
Speaker 4: for the string around his neck, and they rolled the
Speaker 4: body under under the bunk, washed his hands, and then
Speaker 4: went back out into general population as if nothing happened.
Speaker 6: You write that he is looking for other victims. He's
Speaker 6: not satiated by that one murder. He's asking other people
Speaker 6: to come to a cell under different pretenses, but people
Speaker 6: are not coming to the cell. Then he finds someone
Speaker 6: he never met before named Bill Roberts, fifty six years old,
Speaker 6: and he's in his cell, sleeping with his face down.
Speaker 6: So what does Robert Maudsley do now, Well, it.
Speaker 4: Was his opportunity. He was, you know, later in letters
Speaker 4: he talked about this as his goal was to get
Speaker 4: back to broad More Mental Institute. But while he was
Speaker 4: going to while he was going to do something to
Speaker 4: put himself back in the hospital, he was selecting people
Speaker 4: he wanted dead. They didn't deserve to live. And it
Speaker 4: was all about the child abuse. So it seemed like
Speaker 4: it's intention was I'm going to take out as many
Speaker 4: of these pedophiles as possible in a grotesque way and
Speaker 4: get put back into a hospital by doing it. So
Speaker 4: that's his mindset. So when he comes across Roberts, Roberts
Speaker 4: was sleeping in a cell, like you said, so it
Speaker 4: was a perfect opportunity. And he was a fifty six
Speaker 4: year old that was again another convicted pedophile and killer,
Speaker 4: and so he was sleeping, so it was perfect. You know,
Speaker 4: he was able to get right into the cell without
Speaker 4: him hearing. And he again started stabbing him in the back,
Speaker 4: the back of the head, turning him over and stabbing
Speaker 4: him in the front, the chain, you know, the face,
Speaker 4: the chest, the whole works, and he would do it.
Speaker 4: And the beginning statement when you were reading, it's part
Speaker 4: of the first part of the book, you know, where
Speaker 4: he's just like stabbing him so harsh that the uh,
Speaker 4: lifeless bodies just laying Then it's twitching and all sorts
Speaker 4: of parts of the flesh are coming out and and
Speaker 4: blood and it's flying all through the room. And then
Speaker 4: and then he would then he took the head and
Speaker 4: he and he grabbed kind of the skull part and
Speaker 4: he would crack it against the wall or and then
Speaker 4: the floor because he wanted to break it open. So
Speaker 4: it was it was it was like a huge mess
Speaker 4: that he made. And so eventually again it was the
Speaker 4: same thing. He uh turned the body around and uh
Speaker 4: kind of had the head laying on the floor and
Speaker 4: there was it was just you just have to see it.
Speaker 4: At this this particular person, there's over forty stab wounds
Speaker 4: throughout his body that they could count. So this was
Speaker 4: this was rage. He really hated this person, not because
Speaker 4: of a lifetime of knowing him, because of what he
Speaker 4: had done and how it related to him in his
Speaker 4: own childhood and being raped and going through that torture.
Speaker 4: So that that's kind of how that went, you know.
Speaker 4: And he ended up just washing his hands and wiping
Speaker 4: his knife, and and he went into the guard's office
Speaker 4: and he placed his makeshift knife on the table and
Speaker 4: apparently he said, it looks like it will be too
Speaker 4: short on roll call and smiled. And so this is
Speaker 4: so that's how callous he was toward this.
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Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 6: As a result of this horror of these murders that
Speaker 6: this person has done, what does the prison decide to
Speaker 6: do that they decide to send him to Broadmoor Hospital?
Speaker 6: What do they decide to do? No?
Speaker 4: Actually, you know he wasn't going to get what he wanted,
Speaker 4: you know, just this this whole series. He just ended
Speaker 4: up getting convicted of two more murders. Reality was they
Speaker 4: looked at him worse this time, instead of sending him
Speaker 4: for a treatment and sending him to a hospital, and
Speaker 4: they were going to give him more life sentences and
Speaker 4: keep him in a more strict manner something because they
Speaker 4: don't think a hospital is going to help him.
Speaker 6: Right, you're right.
Speaker 4: Did.
Speaker 6: He was deemed unfit to associate with any other inmates
Speaker 6: due to their safety and his own because he was
Speaker 6: still suicidal. Due to their safety, was placed in the
Speaker 6: solitary confinement unit. However, they had to design designed a
Speaker 6: special cell with two cells. Maybe you can explain this
Speaker 6: incredible cell that you have a photo of the in
Speaker 6: the book Hannibal the Cannibal, by the way, tell us
Speaker 6: about this cell that they construct.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they did it in the basement of Wakefield
Speaker 4: Prison and it was sort of so if you've seen
Speaker 4: the Hannibal the Cannibal sort of movie theories and Silence
Speaker 4: of the Lambs and different things, and you sort of
Speaker 4: see how they have a cell down in a basement
Speaker 4: and it's very confining, and you know, they feed them
Speaker 4: through the little thing and they can all watch them,
Speaker 4: and it's just it's similar to that, only there's two
Speaker 4: of them. There's two of them. They actually created a
Speaker 4: double cell and they would keep the worst two or
Speaker 4: at the moment I guess, or at the month that
Speaker 4: were in the death row or you know, total confinement.
Speaker 4: And Maudsley's always one of them. So this is a
Speaker 4: very small, I don't know how it's to describe it.
Speaker 4: It's like a five by four meter almost square cell.
Speaker 4: And uh, you know, the unit has bulletproof, window shatterproof,
Speaker 4: it's kind of it's it just has that look silence
Speaker 4: of the lambs really took their imaging of that cell
Speaker 4: from that. You know. Inside he's got the little little
Speaker 4: teeny weeny table with one chair. It looks like a
Speaker 4: kiddie table made from cress pressed cardboard and it's on
Speaker 4: a pure cement slab. Toilet and the sink are both
Speaker 4: bolted to that cement slab, you know, and and when
Speaker 4: you hear about how the conditions are, this is one
Speaker 4: thing Maudsley complains about quite often is that with that
Speaker 4: the toilets are always backed up, they're sewer all over
Speaker 4: the place. Really stinks, you know, It's just it's just
Speaker 4: things like that. And it's the same thing as they
Speaker 4: you know, when you say the guards pass the food
Speaker 4: through that little little slot. It's at the bottom of
Speaker 4: the floor, right where the waist runs off and everything.
Speaker 4: So it's it's very unsanitary. It's not a it's not
Speaker 4: a nice setup. And he's put in there for twenty
Speaker 4: three hours a day and he's permitted one hour escorted
Speaker 4: to the to the yard with no less than six guards.
Speaker 4: So it's kind of how they show it too on
Speaker 4: the movie in that sense. And he's not allowed to
Speaker 4: communicate with anybody else or talk to anybody in the yard.
Speaker 4: It's just it's solitary one hour in the yard. So
Speaker 4: it's a really it's a pretty traumatic place to be
Speaker 4: And I'm not sticking up for him or anything. I'm
Speaker 4: not trying to feel sorry for him. It's just it's
Speaker 4: it is very intense.
Speaker 6: You write that nobody thought about him soon after this,
Speaker 6: so in you know, early eighties, no one thought of
Speaker 6: him for quite a while till there was a series
Speaker 6: in or articles in British media. How does this come
Speaker 6: about and what kinds of things were the media interested
Speaker 6: in writing about regarding Robert Maudsley.
Speaker 4: Well, media is media, right, and so they have different
Speaker 4: intentions for the most part. I think at first there
Speaker 4: entran was to talk about someone that would eat other
Speaker 4: body parts and would eat brains, and you know, it's
Speaker 4: kind of a really scary and it's a good story.
Speaker 4: It's it draws people in, right, But initially, I think
Speaker 4: at first the first media person wanted to just do
Speaker 4: an interview for a book. Initially I think there was
Speaker 4: that was the very first contact they had with him.
Speaker 4: But you know, any so that was kind of the
Speaker 4: idea of it. It was more about what they could sell.
Speaker 6: You're right too, that that there was a doctor that
Speaker 6: had tried for two or three years, a doctor Bob
Speaker 6: Johnson had tried for two or three years to be
Speaker 6: able to go to Wakefield and be able to interview him,
Speaker 6: and finally he's able to interview him and then speaks
Speaker 6: to him, discusses, interviews him, and treats him for another
Speaker 6: two or three years. You provide in the book a
Speaker 6: lot of that information about this doctor Bob Johnson and
Speaker 6: the kinds of things that he concluded after speaking with
Speaker 6: Robert Mousley.
Speaker 4: Well, again, I think this is kind of where we
Speaker 4: get the idea when he spent all that time and
Speaker 4: he wrote kind of a perspective of of what Maudsley
Speaker 4: was about. And and you get the real feeling out
Speaker 4: of Maudsley. He's very smart, very well spoken, well read,
Speaker 4: even though he's not been formally educated, and you know,
Speaker 4: it's just it just you get the whole idea of
Speaker 4: his mental health and how he thinks about punishing and
Speaker 4: and and killing the pedophiles and about his life. And
Speaker 4: he's also very very vocal about the conditions that he's
Speaker 4: kept in as long along with the other prisoners as well.
Speaker 4: And he's used a lot of his notoriety to try
Speaker 4: and get that information out there. So a lot of
Speaker 4: the comments and a lot of stuff I put in
Speaker 4: from that, it tells you about a day in the life,
Speaker 4: about the breakfast in his cage and the keepers and
Speaker 4: and you know, the sour milk and all of the
Speaker 4: things that he complains about in in his life. You know,
Speaker 4: it's it's it's just one of those situations. It's it's
Speaker 4: a tough one to talk about.
Speaker 6: You're right, there are some similarities in the media looked
Speaker 6: at this as well. That he has, as you write,
Speaker 6: a near genius IQ and that he loves classical music
Speaker 6: and that was one of his complaints is why can't
Speaker 6: I listen to beautiful music? Or so I guess at
Speaker 6: one time part of the privilege is the privileges that
Speaker 6: he had denied were things like books and television, and
Speaker 6: that situation, as you write, has changed, and you also
Speaker 6: had correspondence, and or at least you write about the
Speaker 6: correspondence and the contact that Robert Mosley has with his
Speaker 6: nephew now that he's in prison.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, Robert Moudsley and his nephew, Gavin. Gavin's
Speaker 4: probably one of the most vocal about Maudsley and about
Speaker 4: the conditions and just the whole situation that he's in. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and as far as things like that, you know, there's
Speaker 4: a real, real big problem about Modsley and the UK
Speaker 4: about the complaints and should we should we allow killers
Speaker 4: like that to be having things like playing video games
Speaker 4: and like Call of Duty his favorite game on PlayStation.
Speaker 4: Should he be allowed to listen to music? Should he
Speaker 4: be allowed to enjoy the life that he has left?
Speaker 4: And this sort of is what has a lot of
Speaker 4: controversy because some of course, a lot of the people
Speaker 4: and government and media has said, well, yeah, we shouldn't
Speaker 4: treat them like animals, But then there's also the call
Speaker 4: and the people, the families of victims and around that
Speaker 4: feel betrayed of course by the public or by the
Speaker 4: media and even the justice system by allowing them to
Speaker 4: have more luxuries, as we would call them. So it's
Speaker 4: it's kind of and Gavin's one of those that's very
Speaker 4: outspoken about the whole thing. He'll go to sometimes, he
Speaker 4: goes to all the media as much as he can,
Speaker 4: you know. And it's also brought on other high profilers
Speaker 4: as well, you know, Charles Bronson probably being the most
Speaker 4: popular of the killers over there. And when Bronson assaulted
Speaker 4: a guard. You know what came out of that was
Speaker 4: he said that it was because of the stress and
Speaker 4: the mental anguish of the way they're treated and housed,
Speaker 4: and he wanted Maudsley Robert Modsley to be a witness
Speaker 4: toward it because of his outspokenness toward all the problems
Speaker 4: in prisons like that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you right too. That at least it seems to
Speaker 6: me that there seems to be a lot of sense
Speaker 6: to what he's said to a psychiatrist that look at
Speaker 6: this was a hatred for my father who molested me,
Speaker 6: and then it was triggered by again the first murder
Speaker 6: and feral, and so then it seems to be to
Speaker 6: the media and people looking at these murders, and there
Speaker 6: seems to be some sympathy that these murders weren't so
Speaker 6: bad because they were pedophiles, they were convicted pedophiles, so
Speaker 6: not so bad in terms of who he killed. But
Speaker 6: people forget that there're still the victims' families and they're
Speaker 6: not focused on any of that. They're focused on this
Speaker 6: what this killer has done and the impact on their family.
Speaker 6: And yet the government and people like doctor Bob Johnson
Speaker 6: who said after three years or so, well, I was
Speaker 6: about three quarters of the way through his treatment. That
Speaker 6: was very, very encouraging. So some people are very enraged
Speaker 6: by that they would even consider psychiatric treatment to a
Speaker 6: person that's never ever going to get out of prison anyway,
Speaker 6: and is so dangerous that they have to customize and
Speaker 6: build a separate cell system a self for him, and
Speaker 6: people like TRS Bronson next to him so dangerous that
Speaker 6: they can't be among other dangerous criminals.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's you know, that's kind of goes with
Speaker 4: I think the atmosphere and society right now in the
Speaker 4: UK and the US and even parts of Canada. You
Speaker 4: see a lot of this more I don't know, you say,
Speaker 4: Trump is sort of vocalization of things like when you
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's a killer too bad, like you know,
Speaker 4: and there's this real nonchalantness. So it's it's kind of
Speaker 4: got a mix. It seems like you go one way
Speaker 4: or the other way with this. It's it's a it's
Speaker 4: a tough call because you get you know. And and
Speaker 4: I will say and look at look at when we
Speaker 4: talk about putting him in a special prison built for
Speaker 4: him and stuff. I don't know, is that realistic? Is
Speaker 4: he really that dangerous? Is he the worst of the worst,
Speaker 4: or is a lot of it just talk gossip and
Speaker 4: blown out of proportion. He's a rather meek person. He's
Speaker 4: not a big, aggressive hulk by any means, you know.
Speaker 4: And not taking away the crimes he committed, but in
Speaker 4: my eyes, there's some people in that prison, and we're
Speaker 4: talking several people that have done far, far worse and
Speaker 4: that are much more threatening than Maudsley. And I think
Speaker 4: that he was placed there all on reputation more than
Speaker 4: actual crimes. Of course that's just my thinking, but there's
Speaker 4: certainly a lot worse out there, and they're not in
Speaker 4: nearest restrict incarceration as he is.
Speaker 6: You're right, and we'll talk about that right now, because
Speaker 6: this is part of the thing where there's a certain
Speaker 6: mythology despite there being inmates, nurses and guards witnesses to
Speaker 6: these murders, and the idea that there's a spoon and
Speaker 6: the reputation of the spoon being in the brain. There
Speaker 6: was an autopsy on the very first David Francis, the
Speaker 6: first murder inside prison, pedophile David Francis. What was the
Speaker 6: conclusion of that autopsy in regards to Robert Maudsley having
Speaker 6: eaten some of the brain? Tell us about that?
Speaker 4: Well, see that was that kind of that that leads
Speaker 4: to the big question, you know, did he really eat
Speaker 4: the victim's brain with a spoon? And did he really
Speaker 4: do as they said? And that and the autopsy really
Speaker 4: kind of showed us that it wasn't what he did.
Speaker 4: And I think that the whole idea of that. It
Speaker 4: just kind of shows you how things blow out of
Speaker 4: a proportion. Just people hear things, their imagery of what's
Speaker 4: going on, and then what he wanted to portray to them,
Speaker 4: He wanted them to think that he did. He did
Speaker 4: want that and that was his intention, but that's not
Speaker 4: what he really did. He was not the cannibal as people.
Speaker 4: He wasn't like the Jeffrey Dahmer where he was eating
Speaker 4: parts of the body. This isn't true. The idea was
Speaker 4: in his mind, he's portraying this person that's nuts, that's
Speaker 4: totally insane, that shouldn't be in a prison, that should
Speaker 4: be in a hospital like this. So you know, from
Speaker 4: his point of view, that's what he wanted, and so
Speaker 4: he went along with it. Of course, then with the
Speaker 4: guards and with the other nurses and other inmates talking
Speaker 4: about the rampage, and it give him a reputation far
Speaker 4: more than what he ever ever was or did, not
Speaker 4: justifying anything by any means. But what we're talking about
Speaker 4: here is we're talking about saying this man likes to
Speaker 4: eat bodies. He'll kill you and eat your brains and
Speaker 4: do all this stuff, and that's that's all, you know,
Speaker 4: good for the movies and for the shows, But the
Speaker 4: truth is that's not what happened, and that's not what
Speaker 4: he did. Not saying again, I don't want to I
Speaker 4: don't want you to think that it's okay what he did,
Speaker 4: but it's one of those that's way blown out of
Speaker 4: proportion and he's made out to be much worse by
Speaker 4: reputation than what he really really is. Not that he
Speaker 4: should be out by.
Speaker 6: Any Then again, you know, I understand what you're saying.
Speaker 6: And then, of course, as when we open the show,
Speaker 6: I said, because cannibalism is involved, we are especially as
Speaker 6: viewers and listeners especially interested in that aspect of it.
Speaker 6: With this, it created and backfired for this person that
Speaker 6: wrongfully was placed in a hospital in the first place.
Speaker 6: If you just look at the description of the murder
Speaker 6: itself and what he probably said to police, that the
Speaker 6: descript the outline of it, it would seem that that
Speaker 6: would be certainly murder and he shouldn't have been placed
Speaker 6: in the hospital in the first place. From there, he
Speaker 6: was misguided despite his near genius IQ, he was misguided
Speaker 6: in the idea. You know, three times he did murders
Speaker 6: at trying to go back to that hospital in Vain
Speaker 6: and just added to his own discomfort and persecution as
Speaker 6: he claims in prison, but justifiably he's there may be
Speaker 6: more dangerous people. And you write then in Wakefield they
Speaker 6: have about sixty people that will never ever get out
Speaker 6: of prison. Unlike the US and Canada as well, there
Speaker 6: are very few, Like in Canada, very few people that
Speaker 6: would be deemed never to be released. Absolutely that's a guarantee.
Speaker 6: And like Britain, there are only so many people that
Speaker 6: have a no parole eligibility whatsoever, no ability to ever
Speaker 6: get out of prison. And they are in Wakefield. So
Speaker 6: maybe not exclusively in Wakefield, but sixty of the worst
Speaker 6: of the worst are in Wakefield. And this person that
Speaker 6: smashed people's brains open to be able to create this
Speaker 6: mythology that he may have eaten those people's brains, he
Speaker 6: still had the capacity to kill these people two in
Speaker 6: one day or more. And they just calmly walk into
Speaker 6: a guard's station smiling and say, here go, here's the knife.
Speaker 6: You're going to be a couple of short he's cracking jokes.
Speaker 6: So he's certainly a psychopathic killer, capable of murder, rage, murder.
Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah, oh yeah, gaggerated, don't get me real exaggerated.
Speaker 6: But this, this certainly is one of the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers I've ever read about.
Speaker 4: I would think, you know, and I think in his mind,
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's in one of the letters to
Speaker 4: the doctors, you know, and he talked about how he
Speaker 4: thought killing pedophiles was okay. He was doing you know,
Speaker 4: the world a service. And there's plenty of people out
Speaker 4: there that agree with him, a lot of people out there.
Speaker 4: You know. You see the rage, you know, oh yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, castrate, the mur and all this stuff. So
Speaker 4: he did have that and his mind he thought he
Speaker 4: was doing something good. And in fact, when he killed
Speaker 4: the two on that one day before he gave up,
Speaker 4: he intended he wanted to kill a handful. He wanted
Speaker 4: to kill more than two. He wanted to kill quite
Speaker 4: a few, and he had mentioned how he was he
Speaker 4: thought for sure they were going to send him back
Speaker 4: to the mental hospital. So before he was taken to
Speaker 4: the mental hospital, he had to clear the deck of
Speaker 4: a many as many pedophiles as he could. So in
Speaker 4: his mind he had a job to do. He better
Speaker 4: do it before they send him out of that prison.
Speaker 4: So he had a total different idea behind him. And
Speaker 4: as far as the eating of the brain, that was
Speaker 4: just kind of the symbolization that he would do that.
Speaker 4: And they were, oh, this guy's nuts. Because of the
Speaker 4: way people talk and the way it grows and all
Speaker 4: of a sudden, Oh, this guy's not this guy's crazy,
Speaker 4: this is insane. So for him it was just more
Speaker 4: of a show. And like I said, I don't think
Speaker 4: any of it makes it right. But I think what
Speaker 4: happened is from the outside we've totally misjudged who he
Speaker 4: is and what he did, and in either case he
Speaker 4: should be put away for life. That's not a question.
Speaker 4: It's just you know, and you're right. I mean in
Speaker 4: itself of just thinking that way and doing a display
Speaker 4: as if you were eating someone's brains is enough to
Speaker 4: make you think, well, yeah, we don't want him out
Speaker 4: teaching school tomorrow.
Speaker 6: You're right about A. Paul Harrison, a former detective of
Speaker 6: over forty years experience in the British judicial system. They
Speaker 6: call him the British mind Hunter. Twenty five years profiling,
Speaker 6: he met with Robert Maudsley. What was his conclusions, what
Speaker 6: was his thoughts about after meeting him?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, when you get profilers like that, and
Speaker 4: like Harrison, you get some of the ones from the
Speaker 4: mind hunters as people see and stuff like that, they
Speaker 4: they tend to do things from a more clinical point
Speaker 4: of view. So when he talks about a lot of
Speaker 4: things about Modsley. He's talking more about actions and reactions
Speaker 4: and profiling why people do things and how they select
Speaker 4: you know, the their their they're victims, and they profile
Speaker 4: what they're getting out of it. And I don't think
Speaker 4: there's any surprises there when it comes to that.
Speaker 6: Now, there are people that have expressed again sympathy for
Speaker 6: Robert Maudsley in terms of the treatment of him in prison,
Speaker 6: and and this sympathy is some people think it was misguided,
Speaker 6: but he does have this PlayStation and he does have
Speaker 6: again the build ability to write letters and have visits
Speaker 6: and phone calls. So what would people believe again, and
Speaker 6: like for the the government to do, for the state
Speaker 6: to do for this person as he gets older and
Speaker 6: as you say, probably getting less harmful as time goes
Speaker 6: on due to his physical physical condition.
Speaker 4: Well you know, that's you know, there's people that you know,
Speaker 4: how do you how do you get into it without
Speaker 4: being too political, But there's a lot of people on
Speaker 4: one side of the spectrum that want to try to rehabilitate,
Speaker 4: try to make their life more normal in that respect,
Speaker 4: you know, like TVs, PlayStations, music, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4: And of course then you've got a total other wing
Speaker 4: out that wants to these people should be killed. If anything,
Speaker 4: they want the death. Mentally, we seem to be going
Speaker 4: to the two extremes right now. And and I think
Speaker 4: the truth is probably or what it should be, is
Speaker 4: probably somewhere closer to the middle, you know, because if
Speaker 4: if ath a nation we've we've decided, just like the UK,
Speaker 4: that we're not going to kill our criminals, then we're
Speaker 4: not going to kill them. Should they have a good life?
Speaker 4: Probably not? But what do we do with them? You know,
Speaker 4: like what what? It's kind of one of those questions
Speaker 4: that's really hard to answer because the closer you are
Speaker 4: to the victim or to another victim of another crime
Speaker 4: in in in sort of a same sort of situation,
Speaker 4: it's painful to see that that that criminal, uh you know,
Speaker 4: on a PlayStation. It's it's hard to see them getting
Speaker 4: treats or getting things that are are considered kind of
Speaker 4: a good or a luxury in life. And meanwhile, your
Speaker 4: family member, whoever that was or friend or whoever was
Speaker 4: the victim, doesn't have a life anymore. They're kids the family.
Speaker 4: So it's really where do you draw that line? Like
Speaker 4: what do you call luxury and what do you call,
Speaker 4: you know, necessity And when he does complain about things
Speaker 4: like the sour milk and things like that, and that
Speaker 4: in itself that's true, that is kind of you know,
Speaker 4: if we're going to keep them alive. The nation said
Speaker 4: we can't kill them, okay, So here we got a person.
Speaker 4: Do we give them sour milk and bad food and
Speaker 4: and all of these other things? You know, let the feces,
Speaker 4: you know, you know, it's toilets backed up, and he's
Speaker 4: got you know, all that laying across the the floor
Speaker 4: where they slide the food in. And that is that okay,
Speaker 4: you know, it's you know, and doesn't say more about
Speaker 4: us by allowing that to happen and how we do
Speaker 4: these things to them or is it? You know what
Speaker 4: I mean, it's really where's punishment and where's compassion? You know,
Speaker 4: It's a question that I think we'll always be fighting
Speaker 4: with and it's going to swing all sorts of directions
Speaker 4: depending on society at the time. In the government, I guess,
Speaker 4: but I don't know. I do think there are bad
Speaker 4: things that we do to people like that, and I
Speaker 4: think that's it only makes things worse, you know, This
Speaker 4: isn't making him better, not that we ever think we would,
Speaker 4: but it makes them more of a challenge for the
Speaker 4: people that are in charge of securing them, like the guards.
Speaker 4: They have to deal with more of an unstable person
Speaker 4: and even in a worse condition than they got them.
Speaker 6: So well, the thing is is that we talk about
Speaker 6: you talk about this as a topic here in Canada,
Speaker 6: and I don't to a lesser degree, a far lesser degree.
Speaker 6: In the US, there is talk about the constitutionality of
Speaker 6: solitary confinement, especially over extended periods of time. But the
Speaker 6: question always people may have, like myself, is well, why
Speaker 6: were they deemed necessary to be placed in solitary confinement?
Speaker 6: And when you get a case like this that he's
Speaker 6: dangerous to other inmates, how many would he have killed?
Speaker 6: And then somebody saying, well, we got to worry about
Speaker 6: the psychiatric the psychological welfare of this person. And that's
Speaker 6: where people have a problem, not in terms of so
Speaker 6: much of money, but in terms of there's assumption that
Speaker 6: you can fix everyone, and obviously this person is broken
Speaker 6: so regardless, and so somebody has made the decision to
Speaker 6: put this person in solitary confinement. Like I say, in Canada,
Speaker 6: there's talk of that person in solitary confinement needs at
Speaker 6: least a few hours of other human contact in order
Speaker 6: to maintain a certain level of psychological health. So again,
Speaker 6: where does that end? And where does that And so
Speaker 6: we've seen in Canada where a murderer is is it's
Speaker 6: time served because they spent so much time in solitary confinement.
Speaker 6: This is a little place like thunder Bay, Ontario, where
Speaker 6: so much time in solitary confinement that that charge was
Speaker 6: dealt with as time served. But why were they in
Speaker 6: that solitary confinement? Is the question? Alan?
Speaker 4: Help you you were cut out there. I didn't hear
Speaker 4: your question.
Speaker 6: I just said, well, I really didn't have a question.
Speaker 6: I just made this comment that I think the solitary
Speaker 6: confinement is the question do we deal psychologically with a
Speaker 6: person like this that the only contact he has was
Speaker 6: probably another psychologically damaged person being Charles Bronson is in
Speaker 6: the adjoining cell with him, and then whatever contact he
Speaker 6: has with his nephew. So I think, like I said,
Speaker 6: in Canada at this same time in twenty nineteen, they're
Speaker 6: talking about the constitutionality of solitary confinement itself, psychologically, welfare
Speaker 6: of these people. So if you say, where does that go,
Speaker 6: I mean, this is where it's gone.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I think it's just going to be
Speaker 4: a fluid situation. I don't think you're going to have
Speaker 4: it's going to go back and forth. I personally think
Speaker 4: that they would probably, I think the majority of people
Speaker 4: would go with the death penalty. The problem is a
Speaker 4: lot of people don't have faith in the system, and
Speaker 4: there's just far too much attention and way too many
Speaker 4: wrongly convicted people that are getting out and that we're
Speaker 4: hearing about now, and I think it's scratching the surface.
Speaker 4: So if you can't get that right, how comfortable are
Speaker 4: you with killing people?
Speaker 6: You know?
Speaker 4: And so it's an endless battle. And I don't know.
Speaker 4: I don't know what the answer is. Actually, I really don't.
Speaker 4: I go back and forth myself, you know, because I've
Speaker 4: been working on a book and I've been dealing with
Speaker 4: a lot of the family members this year of victims.
Speaker 4: So it becomes very hard when you hear what they
Speaker 4: go through when they have to go to parole every
Speaker 4: year and a half with a person that killed their family,
Speaker 4: you know. But you start to hear all these stories,
Speaker 4: you start thinking Wow, what is the answer.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, you're talking about a couple things here
Speaker 6: in terms of the death penalty. Can get it wrong,
Speaker 6: and it's not in every state that the death penalty
Speaker 6: is available, and not the death penalty isn't carried out,
Speaker 6: so right there, an inherent not level playing field is
Speaker 6: not the expression. But and that they could get it wrong,
Speaker 6: and that they have factually gotten it wrong means that
Speaker 6: the death penalty is something that that's why we're not
Speaker 6: talking about it in this case. This case is in Britain,
Speaker 6: they've said no death penalty. In Canada said no death penalty.
Speaker 6: So solitary confinement is all that you can do if
Speaker 6: a person continues to murder in prison and you have
Speaker 6: no death penalty as an option to I guess not
Speaker 6: to necessarily stop this person, but this person as football murderer,
Speaker 6: so and then the solitary confinement. But the idea that
Speaker 6: we're dealing with here is that this person it seems
Speaker 6: inhumane the treatment, and that's what he complains about. That's
Speaker 6: what his nephew complains about, is the inhumane treatment. This
Speaker 6: person had a horrible life. He just liked to know
Speaker 6: how this occurred. And he's usually writing a book. It
Speaker 6: was twelve years before he had a haircut because even
Speaker 6: the barber was afraid to go near him.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, that's true. And that's what I mean. We're
Speaker 4: we're what do we consider, you know, mandatory care? Like
Speaker 4: what items are something that we need to be doing
Speaker 4: and whats are we aren't. And it varies so much
Speaker 4: when you talk people to people what they think they
Speaker 4: should get and if anything, I think if you asked
Speaker 4: and took a poll of general population and on what
Speaker 4: people think a prisoner has to live in, if it's
Speaker 4: bad or you know, if they've got a cushy life,
Speaker 4: I think most people think that prisoners lived in a
Speaker 4: really good situation in prison. I think there's a strong
Speaker 4: feeling that people get away with too much.
Speaker 6: I think certainly you can talk to enough people that
Speaker 6: will emotionally not lash out, but they will they'll convey
Speaker 6: and express their will, express their opinions, which will be like, well,
Speaker 6: i'd kill them, I wouldn't spend a nickel on them.
Speaker 6: But if their child, relative, brother, sister, or family member
Speaker 6: was incarcerated, they would instantly be talking a different tune.
Speaker 6: They would be instantly fighting for those numerous appeals and
Speaker 6: the best of attorneys to be able to defend them,
Speaker 6: and then once they're incarcerated, they would certainly want their
Speaker 6: loved one. Most of these people, A lot of these
Speaker 6: people still support their family member that's a killer or
Speaker 6: a rapist. Oh, I would say rapist, but definitely serious
Speaker 6: criminals like killers are supported very often by family members,
Speaker 6: and they would want them at that time despite their
Speaker 6: initial opinion before. They would want them to be housed
Speaker 6: in humane conditions. So I'm all for humane conditions. I'm
Speaker 6: not for punishment. Once you're there jail, your conviction is
Speaker 6: punishment in itself. They don't need to administer other punishment.
Speaker 6: That's the sort of where correction should be. The sentence
Speaker 6: is punishment enough. I think. I don't know for certain,
Speaker 6: but I can imagine, and I have said this before,
Speaker 6: if life in a cell is not good enough for
Speaker 6: those people seeking retribution, I say, maybe you should visit
Speaker 6: there or find out more about that. I think certainly
Speaker 6: that they would not want to be there. They would
Speaker 6: certainly believe that that was punishment. And if that's what
Speaker 6: you want, that's what you got, and that's what you
Speaker 6: got with this person. He certain you can't do any
Speaker 6: more to a person than this, And if he has
Speaker 6: a PlayStation or if he gets a TV set, which
Speaker 6: has afforded most prisoners in most judicial systems in the
Speaker 6: first world, I would say that he is certainly entitled
Speaker 6: to it, despite the murders and the shocking behavior and
Speaker 6: the atrocities that nurses, guards and other inmates had to
Speaker 6: witness at the hands of Robert Maudsley. But that's where
Speaker 6: I would stand on that. In terms of psychiatric treatment,
Speaker 6: I worry when you talk about this, Bob Johnson, and
Speaker 6: he says, while we were three quarters the way into
Speaker 6: terms of it, didn't stay cure. But I'm afraid of
Speaker 6: psychologists and psychiatrists when they start have control of deciding
Speaker 6: who is fixed and who isn't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's always a problem. Yeah.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you Allan for coming on and
Speaker 6: talking about Hannibal the Cannibal. It's been fascinating the true
Speaker 6: story of Robert Maudsley. Tell us where they might be
Speaker 6: able to find other work of yours, and tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about House of Mystery.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, sure. I have a personal website just allanar
Speaker 4: Warren dot com. Of course you can buy the books
Speaker 4: at Amazon and Barnes and Noble and any other bookstore
Speaker 4: that'll pick it up. And as far as House of Mystery,
Speaker 4: we kind of cover all mysteries and crime, sciences, politics,
Speaker 4: kind of go over a lot of questions. It's Monday
Speaker 4: to Friday on kcaa one o six point five FM
Speaker 4: in Los Angeles, and you can also go to House
Speaker 4: of Mystery dot com, are the KCA web page and
Speaker 4: listen to the show.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, thank you very much. Ellen, You're a very prolific
Speaker 6: author and some of the most interesting cases in true
Speaker 6: crime you cover. Thank you very much. You have a
Speaker 6: great evening. Thank you once again for this interview.
Speaker 4: Good Night, thank you, good night, good night.