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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: When widow Francis Lacy was murdered in July nineteen sixty
Speaker 5: on Mackinaw Island, only a few meager clues were found
Speaker 5: by police, and the case soon turned cold. But more
Speaker 5: than sixty years later, will those same clues finally solve
Speaker 5: the mystery. On twenty fourth, nineteen sixty, the quaint charm
Speaker 5: and serenity of mckinaw nestled between Michigan's Upper and Lower peninsulas,
Speaker 5: was shattered by Lacy's brutal death. Despite a massive manhunt
Speaker 5: and thousands of pages of police reports, her killer was
Speaker 5: never caught. Now in Grim Paradise, true crime author Rod
Speaker 5: Sadler of Killing Women delves into the secrets of one
Speaker 5: of Michigan's most perplexing murder cases. Offering an in depth
Speaker 5: and suspenseful account of the long standing mystery, he poses
Speaker 5: the question, could advance DNA technology lead to the identity
Speaker 5: of the Mackinaw Island murderer, as it did recently in
Speaker 5: the case of the Golden State Killer. Find out in
Speaker 5: Grim Paradise, the cold case Search for the mckinaw Island
Speaker 5: Killer with my special guest, retired police officer, journalist and
Speaker 5: author Rod Sadler. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 5: once again for this interview.
Speaker 2: Rod Sadler, Dan, thank you. It is always a pleasure
Speaker 2: to be on your podcast, and I'm excited for this
Speaker 2: new book titled Grim Paradise. I think that your audience
Speaker 2: would certainly enjoy reading it. It's an interesting case, so
Speaker 2: thank you for having me here.
Speaker 5: It certainly is, and thank you so much. It's always
Speaker 5: great to have you back as a guest and to
Speaker 5: interview you. And congratulations on this new book, Grim Paradise.
Speaker 5: It is a very fascinating case. Let's get right to
Speaker 5: the genesis of this book, and you do mention right
Speaker 5: in the very beginning a little bit about this book
Speaker 5: and what you derive from it, but also a little
Speaker 5: bit about Mackinaw Island, It's proximity to the mainland and
Speaker 5: its history.
Speaker 2: Mackinaw Island is really considered Michigan's crown jewel as far
Speaker 2: as vacation destinations. It's a small island that sits in
Speaker 2: Lake Huron in the Straits of Mackinaw. It's about five
Speaker 2: miles from the coast of our upper peninsula and maybe
Speaker 2: eight miles from the coast of our lower peninsula. It
Speaker 2: is home to the world famous Grand Hotel. If you've
Speaker 2: ever seen the Grand Hotel, you'll know why it's called
Speaker 2: the Grand Hotel. It's absolutely gorgeous. But this particular vacation
Speaker 2: destination has been there for well over one hundred years.
Speaker 2: It's known mostly because there are no vehicles allowed on
Speaker 2: the island. In eighteen ninety eight, town council or the
Speaker 2: village council outlawed the horseless carriage, and of course there
Speaker 2: are fire vehicles and an ambulance and a police vehicle
Speaker 2: and some public service vehicles. Beyond that, transportation around the
Speaker 2: island is by foot or by horse and carriage or
Speaker 2: by bicycle, and that's what makes it so charming. It's
Speaker 2: just a beautiful, beautiful place. It's got geologic outcropping, it's
Speaker 2: got all sorts of touristy things in town to do,
Speaker 2: great restaurants, Fort Mcinawe's on the island, you can tour that.
Speaker 2: It's just really a perfect vacation destination. And violent crime
Speaker 2: on Macinaw Island is virtuallyheard of, really, and so that's
Speaker 2: the setting for this murder, this particular murder in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty of a dearborn widow.
Speaker 5: You talk about this place as a choice vacation destination eventually,
Speaker 5: but even very at the very beginning. But part of
Speaker 5: that is this Grand Hotel. Tell us about this Grand
Speaker 5: Hotel and its origins.
Speaker 2: Well, the Grand Hotel was built in the eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 2: It is known for having the longest porch in the world,
Speaker 2: which I believe it's over six hundred feet long. It's
Speaker 2: a five story hotel, very opulent. You can see it
Speaker 2: for miles coming across the straits and Mackinaws you're approaching
Speaker 2: the island. It's very upscale. There's been a couple movies
Speaker 2: that have been filmed there, the most recent being Somewhere
Speaker 2: in Time with Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour. It's visited
Speaker 2: by people from all around the world every year and
Speaker 2: it's a sight to behold. It's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 5: Now, let's introduce this main character, Francis Lacey, her daughter Kay.
Speaker 5: She's married. This is our third marriage to a person
Speaker 5: named Ford Lacey. Tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 5: background of Francis Lacy before we talk about where she is,
Speaker 5: her in her family. July twenty second, nineteen sixty.
Speaker 2: Sure. Sure, Francis Lacy was a widow in nineteen sixty.
Speaker 2: She had been married actually twice before in the nineteen
Speaker 2: thirties and had divorced. Those marriages didn't last very long.
Speaker 2: But she had remarried a man named Ford Lacey and
Speaker 2: passed away in nineteen fifty seven, and so it had
Speaker 2: been about three years since his death when this particular
Speaker 2: event occurred. And Francis was really a very well liked,
Speaker 2: personable person, but she was hard to get to know.
Speaker 2: She kind of stayed to herself, yet she was very
Speaker 2: friendly in the same sense to people. She had two kids,
Speaker 2: a son and a daughter in their twenties early twenties,
Speaker 2: and she came from a large family down in the Nashville,
Speaker 2: Michigan Hastings, Michigan area is where she grew up. And
Speaker 2: she originally was going to nursing school and had dropped
Speaker 2: out of that and started her family. And when this particular,
Speaker 2: I hate to term it as an event, when her
Speaker 2: murder occurred, it had been three years since her husband's death,
Speaker 2: and the trip to Mackinaw Island with her daughter and
Speaker 2: son in law and his sister, she was so looking
Speaker 2: forward to because she hadn't really done anything in the
Speaker 2: past three years for herself and so for this short vacation,
Speaker 2: she was really looking forward to it.
Speaker 5: Yes, you're right that she had struggled with depression and
Speaker 5: she took medication for that depression, and it looked like
Speaker 5: she was much better after this three year interval after
Speaker 5: her husband had died and she had cared for him
Speaker 5: until his death. And so on July twenty second, as
Speaker 5: you write that Francis nineteen sixty, Francis set off on
Speaker 5: a trip to Mackinaw Island with the small group and
Speaker 5: they needed to take a ferry for this eight mile
Speaker 5: trip to the Mackinaw Island. Tell Us who was with
Speaker 5: Francis and people that were in the family group and
Speaker 5: also where they were their destination on the island.
Speaker 2: Well, their destination was an area on the island called
Speaker 2: British Landing. It's around on the northwest side of the island.
Speaker 2: Mackinaw Island is only about eight mile in circumference, so
Speaker 2: it's a very small island and you can literally walk
Speaker 2: anywhere on that island. And so the group that was
Speaker 2: heading out with Francis was her daughter Ka and Kay's
Speaker 2: husband Wesley, and then they also had Wesley's sister Mary
Speaker 2: with them, and they set off on a Friday night.
Speaker 2: They got up their early Saturday morning, they were only
Speaker 2: staying the weekend, and they went to a restaurant because
Speaker 2: the fairies, the passenger fairies, weren't running until eight o'clock,
Speaker 2: so at eight o'clock they boarded the passenger ferry and
Speaker 2: they got over to the island. Now, Wesley's mother was
Speaker 2: already on the island and had rented a cabin at
Speaker 2: British Landing, and they had planned on everybody staying there. Well,
Speaker 2: missus Lacey decided that she didn't want to put anyone out,
Speaker 2: and she told them that she was going to to
Speaker 2: stay at a hotel and so she stopped at the
Speaker 2: first hotel was literally at the end of the pier,
Speaker 2: and they weren't sure they were going to have a room.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't know until like eleven o'clock, and she didn't
Speaker 2: want to wait, so she took a brochure for that
Speaker 2: particular hotel and she put it in her purse, and
Speaker 2: then she walked across the street to the Murray Hotel
Speaker 2: and they had a room available and she paid. In
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty, she paid five dollars and some cents for
Speaker 2: one night's stay, and she told kay that you know,
Speaker 2: after a day of sight seeing that evening, hey, I'll
Speaker 2: walk out to British landing tomorrow morning and meet all
Speaker 2: of you.
Speaker 5: So the next day around eleven am. You say that
Speaker 5: they had expected her. Also, her sister had encouraged her
Speaker 5: k to not walk the distance and to take a
Speaker 5: carriage instead, because they thought it was like an hour
Speaker 5: and a half walk. So tell us about their concern
Speaker 5: and what happens when they make a call and wiring
Speaker 5: at the hotel.
Speaker 2: Sure what happened was missus Lacy. Police theorized that she
Speaker 2: had breakfast at the Murray Hotel based on some forensic
Speaker 2: evidence that was discovered, and after her breakfast at the
Speaker 2: Murray Hotel, she began walking down Main Street westbound. She
Speaker 2: walked for it's not big long street at all, you
Speaker 2: can probably walk it in ten or fifteen minutes if that.
Speaker 2: So she got to the end of Main Street and
Speaker 2: continued on around the west side of the island on
Speaker 2: a boardwalk which was in place back in nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: and she was going to be at the British Land
Speaker 2: and at about eleven o'clock that's when they were expecting her.
Speaker 2: So at eleven o'clock she doesn't show up and the
Speaker 2: family begins to get concerned. They wait until one o'clock
Speaker 2: she still hasn't shown up, and at that point they decide, hey,
Speaker 2: let's notify the police. Wesley's half brother was also there
Speaker 2: with his mother, young man by the name of Marvin,
Speaker 2: and Marvin called the Murray Hotel right away at eleven
Speaker 2: when she didn't show up, and they said that she
Speaker 2: had already checked out, and so he left. He left
Speaker 2: British Landing on a bike and planned on probably finding
Speaker 2: Francis along the roadway on the west end of the island,
Speaker 2: but he did not. He was not able to locate her,
Speaker 2: and so they contacted the Michigan State Police. The Michigan
Speaker 2: State Police had a trooper assigned to the island during
Speaker 2: the summer. There was actually three of them assigned in
Speaker 2: different shifts. At that time. There was one trooper on
Speaker 2: the island and he rode a bike out to British
Speaker 2: Landing and his first thought was, hey, missus Lacy's she's
Speaker 2: probably lost. She's on a trail here somewhere, She's probably lost.
Speaker 2: But his first concern was, hey, let's make sure she
Speaker 2: didn't leave the island. So he called the Mcinaw City Police.
Speaker 2: Mckinaw City is at the tip of Michigan's Lower Peninsulas
Speaker 2: where the ferries run out of and they checked and
Speaker 2: made sure that the vehicle that she had come in
Speaker 2: with Wesleyan k was still there. He also had the
Speaker 2: local police, the Mackinaw Island Police check her hotel room
Speaker 2: and they actually found six pack of Carling black label
Speaker 2: beer under the bed, but she was not there. They
Speaker 2: checked with the front desk. The front desk said she
Speaker 2: had left her luggage there. They found a key on
Speaker 2: the front desk that her room, so they assumed that
Speaker 2: she left her luggage there and was probably going to
Speaker 2: come back for it before she left the island. That
Speaker 2: was standard procedure people that were going to spend the
Speaker 2: day on the island, you know, rather than tote their
Speaker 2: luggage around with them all day, they leave it at
Speaker 2: the hotel and they pick it up later. So her
Speaker 2: luggage was still at the Murray hotel, and so they
Speaker 2: they searched all day, all day, into the evening, and
Speaker 2: up until eleven o'clock at night. And by that time
Speaker 2: the trooper was certain something was amiss and he had
Speaker 2: to contact his supervisors. So he made a phone call
Speaker 2: over to his supervisor, who was insane ignas just five
Speaker 2: miles across the water to the mainland, and because it
Speaker 2: was so late, he said, Hey, we'll be out tomorrow
Speaker 2: with a contingent of men and we'll search the island again.
Speaker 2: And so that's how this all got started.
Speaker 5: I let's talk about that search, because they soon realized
Speaker 5: that it's unlikely that anybody could get lost on this
Speaker 5: series of trails because it's all of the trails lead
Speaker 5: to somewhere accessible, which is maybe one hundred yards away.
Speaker 5: So explain how they proceed with his search. Combination of
Speaker 5: law enforcement and volunteers.
Speaker 2: The island again is only eight miles in circumference, and
Speaker 2: it is interlace with horse trails, walking trails. They're just everywhere,
Speaker 2: and you're literally, like you said, probably within one hundred
Speaker 2: yards of another trail, so it's very, very unlikely for
Speaker 2: anyone to get lost there. The search party on Monday
Speaker 2: morning consisted of probably a dozen police officers, sixty five
Speaker 2: volunteers including some boy scouts, and the Coastguard, and they
Speaker 2: searched all day and there was absolutely no sign of
Speaker 2: missus Lacy at all. And then the theory became that
Speaker 2: maybe she had fallen into the water, or if she
Speaker 2: was suffering from depression. It couldn't rule out the possibility
Speaker 2: that she might have harmed herself. So they were looking
Speaker 2: at all different avenues of all different explanations for why
Speaker 2: she might be missing.
Speaker 5: We should talk about the exhaustive investigation, really, all of
Speaker 5: the directions that the police looked at simultaneously, including the
Speaker 5: Grand Hotel employees, chambermaids and employees. Tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about some of the directions that the police looked
Speaker 5: into that might be leading to a good suspect before
Speaker 5: we talk about the emergence of Paul Strands.
Speaker 2: Well. Once it was decided that hey, there's something to
Speaker 2: miss here and we can't find her, officers started arriving
Speaker 2: from literally from around the state to help in the search.
Speaker 2: They looked immediately at employees at different hotels, including the
Speaker 2: Grand Hotel employees that suddenly quit maybe on the morning
Speaker 2: that she came up missing. They looked at seasonal employees
Speaker 2: because Mackinac Island has a huge transient population in the
Speaker 2: summer of employees that work at the hotels and the
Speaker 2: souvenir shops and take care of the horses and things
Speaker 2: like that. This was during the Chicago to Mackinaw Yacht Race,
Speaker 2: which is an annual event. It coincides within a week
Speaker 2: of the port here on the Mackinaw Yacht Race, and
Speaker 2: so the island is literally flooded with tourists during those
Speaker 2: two particular weekends. It is during those two weekends Macinaw
Speaker 2: Island is considered the yachting capital of the world. And
Speaker 2: it was on the weekend of the Chicago to Mackinaw
Speaker 2: Race that missus Lacy came up missing. So, in addition
Speaker 2: to the tourists and the seasonal employees and the regular employees,
Speaker 2: and the island natives and the people on the boats.
Speaker 2: The police literally were overwhelmed. There was just so many
Speaker 2: people coming and going from that island.
Speaker 5: One of the detectives that's involved in this murder investigation
Speaker 5: has a sort of a famous person connected with Hollywood somewhat,
Speaker 5: and that's Detective Anthony Barrato, and he is the that
Speaker 5: is really very high on Paul Strants as a suspect.
Speaker 2: He is Paul Strands was a local, transient resident, if
Speaker 2: you will. Every summer he came to the island and
Speaker 2: to work, and all he would do is odd jobs
Speaker 2: on the island. That's how he survived. He was from
Speaker 2: the Indiana and he was a little different. And as
Speaker 2: the investigation began to take shape, he was interviewed by
Speaker 2: Detective Sprato, and Detective Sprato was certain that he was
Speaker 2: involved somehow, but he couldn't put his finger on it,
Speaker 2: and so he said, hey, can we search your room?
Speaker 2: You know, if you're innocent, can we look in your room?
Speaker 2: And Strantz said yeah, So he took him over to
Speaker 2: the hotel. They searched his room and Strants had some
Speaker 2: very odd things. He had a newspaper article about women
Speaker 2: protecting themselves. He had some drawings of some women that
Speaker 2: he had done. His suit coat was and when they
Speaker 2: asked him about it, he said he got caught in
Speaker 2: the rain on Saturday and it hadn't dried out yet.
Speaker 2: That they thought they had some blood spots on one
Speaker 2: of his shirts. It turned out that that was just paint.
Speaker 2: But he just wasn't all there, according to the police reports,
Speaker 2: and they didn't have enough to hold him at that point,
Speaker 2: but Sprouto made some mental notes about strants. In other words,
Speaker 2: he said, we'll revisit strants again. Maybe this is the
Speaker 2: guy that's responsible for Missus Lacy's disappearance. So they don't
Speaker 2: have enough to hold strands. Anthony Sproto is pretty certain
Speaker 2: that he's involved in Missus Lacy's disappearance somehow, and so
Speaker 2: they release him from questioning. He was never arrested at
Speaker 2: that point, but as the investigation goes on, Sprato gets
Speaker 2: a tip, a very valuable tip that leads sadly to
Speaker 2: the discovery of Missus Lacy's body. And that tip, if
Speaker 2: I can get into that, came about from a couple
Speaker 2: on the island who weren't supposed to be there, and
Speaker 2: by that I mean they were having an affair. Nobody
Speaker 2: was supposed to know they were there. And on Sunday morning,
Speaker 2: the day that Missus Lacey came up missing, they arrived
Speaker 2: on the island at about nine point thirty and they
Speaker 2: rented a bike because that's the only transportation, and they
Speaker 2: started some sightseeing and they rode around the west end
Speaker 2: of the island and as they neared an area where
Speaker 2: there's a large gate that's flanked by two cobblestone pillars,
Speaker 2: they noticed personally and along the side of the road,
Speaker 2: and so they stopped and picked it up, and inside
Speaker 2: was the identification of a woman named Francis Lacy. Now
Speaker 2: understand that she hasn't been reported missing. This is on
Speaker 2: Sunday morning, and it's about eleven am. And as they stop,
Speaker 2: they hear some lumbering around in the brush on the
Speaker 2: inside of the roadway. On the outside of the roadway
Speaker 2: is Lake Huron, because it's a coastal roadway, and they
Speaker 2: hear this lumbering around and they don't pay any attention
Speaker 2: to it. They think it's a large animal. And they
Speaker 2: see this purse. They see the identification of a woman
Speaker 2: named Francis Lacy. And so they find a brochure for
Speaker 2: the hotel that's at the end of the pier that
Speaker 2: she had sucked in to her purse, and they said, well,
Speaker 2: we'll go back to the hotel and we'll find her
Speaker 2: and we'll give her purse to her. Well, they go
Speaker 2: back there and Missus Lacey didn't stay at that hotel,
Speaker 2: if you remember correctly. So the hotel says, no, we
Speaker 2: don't have anybody here by that name. And so they
Speaker 2: see that missus Lacy's from Dearborn and they're from Detroit.
Speaker 2: So they said, we'll just take it back to Detroit
Speaker 2: with us and we'll track her down there and give
Speaker 2: it to her rather than try to find her on
Speaker 2: the island. So at the end of the day they
Speaker 2: leave the island. Jump ahead four days. It's now made
Speaker 2: national news that dearborn widow is missing on Mackinaw Island
Speaker 2: and her faces all over the newspapers and the TV.
Speaker 2: And they see it and they recognize the name. Hey,
Speaker 2: we've got this lady's purse. So they call the state police.
Speaker 2: And I'm giving you kind of the abridged version here. Yes,
Speaker 2: they called the state police, and the State Police go
Speaker 2: back to the location where they found the person. That's
Speaker 2: where they begin to zero in their search for Missus Lacy,
Speaker 2: and sadly, that's when they find her body. She'd been
Speaker 2: there for four days. And the theory is, and it's
Speaker 2: probably correct, the lumbering around the large animal they thought
Speaker 2: they heard they probably had just interrupted the murder of
Speaker 2: Francis Lacy. That was probably the suspect getting away.
Speaker 5: Wow, you're right that they first find a denture in
Speaker 5: the pavement crushed or a piece of denture crushed and
Speaker 5: pavement before they find her body. Tell us the condition
Speaker 5: that they find her body, and obviously they can find
Speaker 5: out more information with the autopsy.
Speaker 2: Oh sure. When they started their search, they did find
Speaker 2: a smashed like a dental plate in the roadway, almost
Speaker 2: as if it had been run over, probably by a carriage.
Speaker 2: That did turn out to be Missus Lacy's dental plate.
Speaker 2: When they found her body. Well, that the officer, the
Speaker 2: first officer they got on the inside of the gate,
Speaker 2: and he noticed an old overturned a boat, and he
Speaker 2: went up to that and looked under it, and he
Speaker 2: found a plastic like a shopping bag and had one
Speaker 2: shoe in it a woman's dress shoe, and there was
Speaker 2: a woman's dress shoe laying next to the bag, so
Speaker 2: obviously someone had concealed those there. And as he looked
Speaker 2: a little bit further into the brush, understand that this
Speaker 2: small cliff is covered with cedar trees and rocks and brush,
Speaker 2: and he notices a tree down with it looks like
Speaker 2: some branches are propped up against it. And as he
Speaker 2: looks closer, he sees human hair and he discovers missus
Speaker 2: Lacy's body. She is laying face down. One of her
Speaker 2: arms is twisted up behind her back, her clothing is
Speaker 2: pulled up to her shoulders. She has quite a bit
Speaker 2: of advanced decomposition because it's the hot summer. Her body's
Speaker 2: been out there for four days, so there's some decomposition
Speaker 2: going on. And as they turn her over, they discover
Speaker 2: that she has been strangled with her own panties.
Speaker 5: There is also forensic evidence gathered. There are hairs, pubic
Speaker 5: and head hair gathered as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, the police located some hairs on her body that
Speaker 2: did not belong to her. Her hair was black and
Speaker 2: with some graying, and she was only forty nine years old,
Speaker 2: and they did take some of her own hair off
Speaker 2: of her clothing, but they also discovered some light brown
Speaker 2: to blonde colored hair. I think there was five or
Speaker 2: six different hairs that were recovered not only at the
Speaker 2: scene but during her autopsy, and those were crucial in
Speaker 2: the investigation. That was of course, this was before the
Speaker 2: advent of DNA, so that was the forensic evidence that
Speaker 2: the police had was these hairs, and those were sent
Speaker 2: to down to the crime lab in Lancing. Interestingly enough,
Speaker 2: the crime lab in Lancing was part of the Michigan
Speaker 2: Department of Public Health and not a part of the
Speaker 2: Michigan State Police. So while some of the evidence was
Speaker 2: taken to the State Police post, some of the other evidence,
Speaker 2: the forensic evidence was taken to the Michigan Department of
Speaker 2: Public Health to be analyzed.
Speaker 5: You write that the family, William Lacy and Gina Cook,
Speaker 5: the mother in law of Francis Lacy, heard on the
Speaker 5: news and notified William and Kay and Wesley Sutter were
Speaker 5: notified by the Michigan State Police.
Speaker 2: They were when Francis's body was found. Two things happened.
Speaker 2: One of the troopers was assigned to go find Kay
Speaker 2: and Wesley and let them know what that a body
Speaker 2: had been found. They believed that it was probably Francis.
Speaker 2: As that news circulated quite fast, it got on the
Speaker 2: media before the entire family could be notified. And that's
Speaker 2: how missus Lacy's sister in law heard about it. First.
Speaker 2: Sister in law's mother had heard it and then let
Speaker 2: William know her brother he was down in Detroit. So
Speaker 2: it's just a very tragic situation. You're right.
Speaker 5: The detective Sprato now more than ever, wanted to interview
Speaker 5: Paul Strantz once again, and in that he wanted to
Speaker 5: question him, they actually arrested him and brought him to
Speaker 5: Macina Island Police Department in their city hall, and Strance
Speaker 5: gave police permission to search his room. Now you speak
Speaker 5: of the media, you say local residents are shock to
Speaker 5: learn that Paul Stance was the number one suspect in
Speaker 5: this murder. And that's according to the media, isn't it
Speaker 5: It is?
Speaker 2: And not only to the media. You know, I was
Speaker 2: lucky enough to actually interview some people that were on
Speaker 2: the island at the time of the murder, and they
Speaker 2: remember it. And I talked to this one elderly lady
Speaker 2: and I said, you know, what did you guys think
Speaker 2: when Paul Strantz was arrested and she said, I was
Speaker 2: just a kid, but my mother was absolutely paulled because
Speaker 2: he had been in their house just days before doing
Speaker 2: odd jobs, fixing windows and stuff. Because that's what he did.
Speaker 2: He was used the old cliche from an old Harry
Speaker 2: Chapin song, job man, that's what Paul Strantz was. He
Speaker 2: did odd jobs around the island, and so that a
Speaker 2: lot of the a lot of the residents on the
Speaker 2: island were taken aback by his arrest. That didn't last long, though,
Speaker 2: because Paul Strantz was released almost as quickly as he
Speaker 2: was arrested. They realized they just didn't have the evidence
Speaker 2: to hold him.
Speaker 5: Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a
Speaker 5: second to hear from these messages.
Speaker 3: Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've
Speaker 3: gotten lucky? Lucky?
Speaker 1: In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my
Speaker 1: dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: You do?
Speaker 1: In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?
Speaker 3: Really yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
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Speaker 5: Now, we still have to get back to the condition
Speaker 5: that the coroner finds Francis Lacy's body and some of
Speaker 5: the things that are discovered, such as a semen and
Speaker 5: what that indicates tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 5: condition and what they find, and again what they find
Speaker 5: in terms of strangulation, manual and assisted.
Speaker 2: They did find during the autopsy they noticed, in addition
Speaker 2: to the ligature that was around her neck, they discovered
Speaker 2: small bruising around her throat and it was at fingertip
Speaker 2: intervals is how it's described in the autopsy report. What
Speaker 2: that told the pathologist or was that whoever had killed
Speaker 2: her had tried to strangle her first with his bare hands,
Speaker 2: hence the bruising at fingertip intervals, and then used her
Speaker 2: own panties to create a ligature and strangle her to
Speaker 2: finish the job, if you will. They did recover the
Speaker 2: hair off the body and in missus Lacy's stomach, they found,
Speaker 2: and this is how they determined that she likely had
Speaker 2: breakfast at the Murray Hotel. She had canilope pancakes, bacon,
Speaker 2: and coffee in her stomach, and so as part of
Speaker 2: the investigation, the investigators went and they searched all the
Speaker 2: restaurants on the island to see who served canilope, and
Speaker 2: there were only two or three if I recall correctly,
Speaker 2: and one of those was the Murray Hotel. And so
Speaker 2: they showed a picture to the waitress and she said, well,
Speaker 2: she looks familiar. She said, there was a woman that
Speaker 2: came down here with glasses at about eight thirty, but
Speaker 2: we didn't have gas in the stove yet, so they
Speaker 2: had a gas stove and so they told her she'd
Speaker 2: have to come back. So she came back at about
Speaker 2: nine o'clock and there was a woman that had pancakes
Speaker 2: and bacon and cantiloap and coffee. And so police do
Speaker 2: theorized that that in fact is where she had a breakfast.
Speaker 2: And the reason that that's important is because they were
Speaker 2: able to determine what time she finished that breakfast and
Speaker 2: likely started walking out to British Landing.
Speaker 5: Now you right, that fear blankets the Mackinaw Island, especially
Speaker 5: when they realized there is no good suspect and the
Speaker 5: police or stymied. Now you have a litany basically of
Speaker 5: police doing their job. They are reaching out to the
Speaker 5: public and they are looking for tips and they have
Speaker 5: to follow up on those tips. They're also doing follow
Speaker 5: up investigations in terms of any connection to any suspect
Speaker 5: now referring to people and other crimes and other cases.
Speaker 5: And you mentioned the Starved Rock murders in Illinois. So
Speaker 5: not to go down this rabbit hole of other information,
Speaker 5: but there's a reason why police officers, Michigan State Police
Speaker 5: are looking at the Starved murders in Illinois for a
Speaker 5: connection with the Francis Lacy murder.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there was. Actually they did that in several instances
Speaker 2: in this particular investigation. The Starbrock murders occurred in March,
Speaker 2: so it would have been three or four months prior
Speaker 2: to missus Lacy's murder. It occurred in Starbrock State Park
Speaker 2: in Illinois, where three socialite women were found bludgeoned to death.
Speaker 2: And without again, without going down that rabbit hole, police theorized, hey,
Speaker 2: it's another murder in a state park in another state
Speaker 2: close to Michigan, there's a chance that it might be
Speaker 2: related to this particular case, and so they looked into
Speaker 2: the Starbrock murders, albeit briefly. They also looked at killing
Speaker 2: in Minnesota that turned out to be a like a
Speaker 2: contract hit. An attorney had paid some guys to murder
Speaker 2: his wife. That was the Thompson murder, and a couple
Speaker 2: of the people in that particular murder had ties to Michigan.
Speaker 2: One of them, in fact, was living in Lansing, Michigan,
Speaker 2: and his mother he was actually from I think it
Speaker 2: was Alden, Michigan, which is just very close to the
Speaker 2: bridge to the Mackinaw Bridge, which means it is very
Speaker 2: close to Mackinaw Island. So there was that connection. They
Speaker 2: also looked at a serial killer, I hate to use
Speaker 2: the term famous serial killer, but a very well known
Speaker 2: serial killer by the name of Hubay and Morris who
Speaker 2: went on a murder spree from the west coast to
Speaker 2: the east coast and actually traveled through Michigan. And so
Speaker 2: they were looking not only at locals and transient population
Speaker 2: and employees on the island, but they were looking nationwide
Speaker 2: for a connection to this murder.
Speaker 4: Too.
Speaker 5: You also have a series of people that were either
Speaker 5: heard bragging about the murder, had said some interesting, almost
Speaker 5: incriminating statements about the murder, including the panties in strangulation
Speaker 5: a couple of times. What I found interesting was, according
Speaker 5: to the police report, the police weren't certain that that
Speaker 5: information wasn't released via some media source. So I thought
Speaker 5: that was very interesting they couldn't rule out. I really
Speaker 5: don't think they could really assess those statements so well
Speaker 5: since they weren't certain about the information that was imparted
Speaker 5: to media one way or another.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And they had two or three instances where people
Speaker 2: made the statement, oh, anybody could kill a woman with
Speaker 2: her anybody could strangle a woman with her panties, Or
Speaker 2: there was another guy that said, oh, yeah, I killed her.
Speaker 2: I watched her eyes roll back in her head when
Speaker 2: I choked her with her maid informed panties. Even Paul Strantz,
Speaker 2: who showed up several years later again on the island,
Speaker 2: a woman supposedly heard him say that he had killed
Speaker 2: her and he wouldn't have done it if if she
Speaker 2: hadn't screamed her. So they had all these different statements,
Speaker 2: and then when they confronted these people other than Paul Strantz,
Speaker 2: who was a little different. You know, they all said, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, I said that, you know, just to kid
Speaker 2: around with my friends. There was another guy down in
Speaker 2: Detroit that got arrested for domestic abuse or something like that,
Speaker 2: and he had made the statement he had killed Francis Lacy,
Speaker 2: and so they went and interviewed him and he said, oh,
Speaker 2: he said, no, I didn't kill her. He said, I'm
Speaker 2: you know, I'm down on my luck. And I thought
Speaker 2: if I said something like that, I might get some attention.
Speaker 2: So you know why people would do that, I have
Speaker 2: no idea, but there was a whole list of people
Speaker 2: that did.
Speaker 5: It was also a reliance by the Michigan State Police
Speaker 5: to administer polygraphs and then rule out suspects based on
Speaker 5: a favorable polygraph test as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, here's the trouble with polygraph tests. Now understand that
Speaker 2: I was a police officer for thirty years and we
Speaker 2: used them. But in today's world, if you understand, I
Speaker 2: don't profess to be a psychologist or a psychiatrist, or
Speaker 2: or a criminal profiler by any means. But if you
Speaker 2: read the research, a serial killer, for instance, has the
Speaker 2: ability to compensate in the way that he answers questions,
Speaker 2: and because of that is able to pass a polygraph examination.
Speaker 2: And so nowadays, if there's a good murder suspect, sometimes
Speaker 2: they won't even polygraph that person just because a psychopath
Speaker 2: is able to compensate in his answers and pass that test.
Speaker 2: And so a polygraph isn't allowed evidence in Michigan anyway.
Speaker 2: It's another tool in the investigation to point you in
Speaker 2: the right direction. But they did. They polygraphed a lot
Speaker 2: of people in this case, and some of those people
Speaker 2: were cleared. Paul Strantz, they couldn't tell one where or
Speaker 2: the other because of his emotional state. So while they
Speaker 2: did clear him on the day of the murder by
Speaker 2: checking his alibi, when they gave him a polygraph a
Speaker 2: couple years later, they couldn't tell one where or the
Speaker 2: other if he was responsible.
Speaker 5: Police also had to investigate people that had worked at
Speaker 5: the Grand Hotel and other hotels that had suddenly left
Speaker 5: the island right after or soon after Lacy murder.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, yeah. There was a guy that worked at
Speaker 2: the Grand Hotel who quit. Oh gosh, might have been
Speaker 2: the night Missus Lacey came up missing or the following morning,
Speaker 2: and everybody thought that he was as he showed up
Speaker 2: at a hotel in Detroit and when he disappeared, basically
Speaker 2: nobody had seen him for a week. They searched his
Speaker 2: room the hotel staff and they found his coat and
Speaker 2: in his coat was a baggage tag from Mackinaw Island. Well,
Speaker 2: they knew about the murder on the island, so they
Speaker 2: called the police. Well, the baggage Dad mac match Day
Speaker 2: a bag that was found on the docks up on
Speaker 2: the island, and so the police seized that and they
Speaker 2: began to search for this guy, thinking that, hey, you know,
Speaker 2: he could be a suspect here because he quit right
Speaker 2: after missus Lacy came up missing. And he was kind
Speaker 2: of a cantankerous person, didn't get along with a lot
Speaker 2: of people, drank a lot, and so they were following
Speaker 2: up on leads on him pretty hard. Harold asked was
Speaker 2: his name? And they actually found Harold. Indiana State Police
Speaker 2: found him, Well, I say found him. He heard that
Speaker 2: the police wanted to talk to him. He heard it
Speaker 2: in the meeting. Yeah, And so he called the Indiana
Speaker 2: State Police and said, hey, you guys want to talk
Speaker 2: to me or the Michigan State Police wants to talk
Speaker 2: to me, and he made himself available to him. So
Speaker 2: they went and they interviewed him, and while his answers
Speaker 2: were very vague, they did ask if he would submit
Speaker 2: hair samples, which he did, and they took him back.
Speaker 2: He actually offered to go back to Mackinaw Island to
Speaker 2: clear his name, and so they flew him back there.
Speaker 2: Three detectives and him flew back to Mackinaw Island from
Speaker 2: Indiana and he was able to clear his name. They
Speaker 2: were absolutely certain that he was not involved in the murder.
Speaker 5: Well now by December eighth there's a new lead. Ionia
Speaker 5: County Sheriff officer arrested person named Cleon Brown for a
Speaker 5: break and enter and he was sentenced to a three
Speaker 5: to five year sentence. Tell us about Cleon Brown and
Speaker 5: police interest in him.
Speaker 2: Cleon Brown was a loneminoal. He worked alone and he
Speaker 2: went on breaking an entering spree from Michigan to Florida
Speaker 2: and about every state in between. And when he was
Speaker 2: finally arrested. He was from the mid Michigan area up
Speaker 2: around the city of Ionia, and when he was finally arrested.
Speaker 2: They sat down and they interviewed him, you know, to
Speaker 2: find out where he had been, see what crimes he
Speaker 2: was involved in, because he was singing like a bird.
Speaker 2: And he said that he had been on Mackinaw Island.
Speaker 2: And this was just like two or three months he
Speaker 2: was arrested, two or three months after the murder of
Speaker 2: missus Lacy. It was in November he was arrested. So
Speaker 2: they're taking this statement from him, and he says that
Speaker 2: he had been on Mackinaw Island. Well, the officer that
Speaker 2: was interview him knew about the murder, so he contacted
Speaker 2: the investigators up on the island and they said, reinterview
Speaker 2: him and pin him down on a date about being
Speaker 2: on Mackinaw Island or see what you can find out.
Speaker 2: So they reinterview him and he says, oh, oh, no,
Speaker 2: I didn't say Mackinaw Island. I might have said Fox Island,
Speaker 2: which incidentally is in Lake Michigan, not Lake Huron. But
Speaker 2: he said I was on Fox Island. I didn't say
Speaker 2: Macinaw Island. And so they gave him a polygraph and
Speaker 2: he passed it. But on the same along those same lines,
Speaker 2: they asked him to submit hair samples, which he did,
Speaker 2: and the laboratory scientists that did the analysis the hares
Speaker 2: that were taken from missus Lacy's body, he compared those
Speaker 2: with the hairs from Cleon Brown and he could not
Speaker 2: eliminate Cleon Brown as a suspect because there were just
Speaker 2: too many characteristics that were the same.
Speaker 5: Let's says as an opportunity to stop to hear from
Speaker 5: these messages.
Speaker 3: Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've
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Speaker 1: In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in my
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Speaker 3: Actually do I have to say?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: You do?
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Speaker 5: Now, how do police proceed? Because again there are tips
Speaker 5: coming in, But meanwhile there was increased pressure. You write
Speaker 5: in this book that the tourist industry. It was hit
Speaker 5: hard by the news of this, and it was almost
Speaker 5: nonexistent at that time after in the new year of
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty one.
Speaker 2: Well understand that in the winter, without the tourist population,
Speaker 2: you have about six hundred residents on the island, and
Speaker 2: nobody on the island knew if the killer was a worker.
Speaker 2: They didn't know if it was a tourist, and they
Speaker 2: didn't know if the killer was one of their own,
Speaker 2: and that's was very upsetting to them. Everybody was in fear.
Speaker 2: People that used to walk halfway around the island of
Speaker 2: their houses from downtown now we're taking carriages. Everybody was
Speaker 2: in fear because nobody knew who the killer was or
Speaker 2: if he was a local. And so as the investigation
Speaker 2: went on, you understand that they bring in let's say,
Speaker 2: twenty five troopers and detectives from around the state to
Speaker 2: work this case, because it's really a high profile case.
Speaker 2: Mackinac Island in the tourist industry is huge, and so
Speaker 2: they bring in all these troopers and all these detectives,
Speaker 2: and as tips begin to fade and information comes in
Speaker 2: slower and slower, crime doesn't take a holiday around the
Speaker 2: state and so these troopers and detectives that were temporarily
Speaker 2: assigned of the island were starting to get sent back
Speaker 2: to their home posts, if you will. And basically the
Speaker 2: investigation is now relegated to two or three read detectives
Speaker 2: from the Saint Ignas post and that's it. That's what
Speaker 2: they had to work with. And as this went on
Speaker 2: and on, fewer and fewer tips came in.
Speaker 5: You're talking by even nineteen sixty four that the case
Speaker 5: was at a virtual standstill, and yet they were still
Speaker 5: getting anonymous tips that they had to rule out and
Speaker 5: eliminate suspects, didn't they.
Speaker 2: Yes, Occasionally they would get a tip when Paul Strantz
Speaker 2: came back into the picture that was two or three years,
Speaker 2: maybe four years after the murder, and they reinterviewed him
Speaker 2: and tried giving him a polygraph, and they would get
Speaker 2: an occasional there was a letter from a lady that
Speaker 2: thought a guy that was arrested in Chicago that was
Speaker 2: a tree trimmer might have been the same tree trimmer
Speaker 2: that she knew up in Sheboygan at the time of
Speaker 2: the Mackinac Island murder and he could have been involved.
Speaker 2: And some of these tips were a little far fetched,
Speaker 2: but they had nothing else to go on, and so
Speaker 2: they are obligated to follow up on every tip. They're
Speaker 2: trying to find a killer, and it just there was
Speaker 2: a point where just all the tips just stopped and
Speaker 2: there was nothing more to work with.
Speaker 5: Michigan State Police had assistants and assurances from the FBI
Speaker 5: that they would help in any way. They utilized criminal
Speaker 5: profiling in two thousand and seven and then again in
Speaker 5: two thousand and eight. Robin Sexton and then David Minzy
Speaker 5: tell us what they did learn from this criminal profiling initiative.
Speaker 2: The detective Sexton knew that there really wasn't much to
Speaker 2: go on. I'm certain that he reviewed the entire police
Speaker 2: report as I have, and figured that probably there was
Speaker 2: two things that could help in this investigation that may help,
Speaker 2: and one was to release to the media and to
Speaker 2: the public the fact that missus Lacy's watch was missing
Speaker 2: and had been missing since the murder that was never
Speaker 2: made public at all, And so he released not only
Speaker 2: a description of the watch but the serial number two
Speaker 2: maybe in hopes that someone would find in grandma's old
Speaker 2: jewel box or grandpa's old jewel box a similar watch
Speaker 2: that they could match the serial number two that did
Speaker 2: not pan out by the mid two thousand's. Actually, you know,
Speaker 2: back in the late nineties eighties, criminal profiling had started,
Speaker 2: and so detective Sexton had not only the FBI offer
Speaker 2: profile of the killer, but also a profiler with the
Speaker 2: Michigan State Police, and their profiles were strikingly similar. Basically,
Speaker 2: they said that the killer was likely eighteen to nineteen
Speaker 2: years old, that she was not missus Lacy would not
Speaker 2: have been in fear of him. She had no reason
Speaker 2: to suspect that he was suspicious because she's on Macano Island,
Speaker 2: you know, so nothing happens on Mackinac Island. And it
Speaker 2: was a very rapid They described it as a blitz
Speaker 2: style attack. That he had to be strong enough to
Speaker 2: pick her up and carry her body up behind the
Speaker 2: gate because it was not dragged up there. They offered
Speaker 2: some insight into what his mental state was, given how
Speaker 2: her clothing was arranged or disarranged, and the fact that
Speaker 2: her watch was missing, which is often a key element
Speaker 2: to a serial killer, and that is they take a
Speaker 2: momento to remember and relive the experience that they have
Speaker 2: just committed. And that's why oftentimes you'll find a serial
Speaker 2: killer takes that momento if you followed the news at all. Lately,
Speaker 2: there's a reinterest in the BTK killer. They're looking for
Speaker 2: momentos that he took that he has now said that
Speaker 2: he buried on his property, and they've actually found some,
Speaker 2: and that's a key element oftentimes to a serial killer.
Speaker 2: He'll take that, he'll take that little prize. And it
Speaker 2: was the same way with Don Miller in my last book.
Speaker 2: He took some momentos from his victims. So I think
Speaker 2: that the watch was probably that momento that the killer took.
Speaker 2: And sometimes they'll take that and they'll relive the experience.
Speaker 2: Sometimes they'll take it and they'll give it to someone
Speaker 2: that they care for, and that person never has a
Speaker 2: clue where it came from. So it's an interesting situation
Speaker 2: when that happens.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you write in The Grim Paradise that there's a
Speaker 5: sergeant rule and she looks at person named speaking of
Speaker 5: serial killers, Nolan Ray George, but especially because his crimes
Speaker 5: involved rape and strangulation with the victim's own panties. Now,
Speaker 5: she also checks that you write that, she checks that
Speaker 5: there are several assaults. The strangulation murders involving the victim's
Speaker 5: own undergarments. But she's interested in him and as a suspect,
Speaker 5: and goes and interviews him in prison. Let's talk about
Speaker 5: what you call a new person of interest and why
Speaker 5: who is this person and why he became a person
Speaker 5: of interest.
Speaker 2: Well, it's an odd it's an odd situation about how
Speaker 2: I came across his name as a person of interest.
Speaker 2: But in a nutshell, this particular person was a serial killer.
Speaker 2: He's passed away now. He was in prison for a
Speaker 2: cold case murder that he was convicted of that occurred
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy three, and he was actually convicted of
Speaker 2: that murder in two thousand and one. That case had
Speaker 2: been cold for that long prior to that came across
Speaker 2: his name and someone had suggested that I write a
Speaker 2: book about him, and I thought, well, it might be interesting,
Speaker 2: But there was already a book written about him, and
Speaker 2: so I thought, well, I'll look at this nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: three murder that he was convicted of. Well, it turns
Speaker 2: out that his first arrest was in nineteen sixty one,
Speaker 2: just one year after the Lacey homicide. He was twenty
Speaker 2: at that time, which would have put him eighteen or
Speaker 2: nineteen years old at the time of the Lacey homicide.
Speaker 2: He also in digging into his background. A year before
Speaker 2: the Lacey homicide, there was a newspaper article when he
Speaker 2: got married where he tells the reporter that his college
Speaker 2: plans after he's married is to go to the Michigan
Speaker 2: Institute of Mining in Technology, which is in hot and Hancock, Michigan.
Speaker 2: It's Michigan Tech nowadays that's in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. So
Speaker 2: he clearly has understanding of Michigan's northern territories, if you will.
Speaker 2: He has a blonde to brown light brown to blonde
Speaker 2: colored hair. In between the murder that he was eventually
Speaker 2: convicted of, there was another murder of a sixteen year
Speaker 2: old girl in the Midkin area, and the method of
Speaker 2: operation is basically identical to the Francis Lacy homicide. He
Speaker 2: was at the time of the first arrest in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty one. He actually did not go to Michigan Tech
Speaker 2: or the Institute of Mining and Technology by that time,
Speaker 2: he was going to the University of Michigan in ann Arbor.
Speaker 2: Well in the police reports, and I will say that
Speaker 2: all of the police reports were redacted, so there were
Speaker 2: no names for me to follow up with, but many
Speaker 2: of the people that were interviewed were University of Michigan
Speaker 2: students who were working on the island for the summer,
Speaker 2: and so well, I can't say with any degree of
Speaker 2: certainty that he was involved in the Lacy homicide. I
Speaker 2: certainly think that there's enough information that he should be
Speaker 2: looked at as a person of interest. And that's where
Speaker 2: we're at with that. He died last year in prison
Speaker 2: in August of last year, So if that evidence can
Speaker 2: be located, then at least they have a new name
Speaker 2: to begin with. Does it sound like, yeah, maybe I'm
Speaker 2: stretching it. No, I don't think I am. I think
Speaker 2: that this is how you solve a cold case. You
Speaker 2: go back over the evidence, You look at what you have,
Speaker 2: and you look at what you maybe have overlooked. And
Speaker 2: it may be as simple as the color of a
Speaker 2: person's hair, you know, it could be anything. They've had
Speaker 2: sixty three years to solve it and they haven't done
Speaker 2: it yet, So why not look at this guy? And
Speaker 2: I think the Cleon Brown could be another legitimate person
Speaker 2: of interest to.
Speaker 5: What we didn't mention that there was a couple that
Speaker 5: emerged that said that they were on lake Shore Road,
Speaker 5: the route that Francis Lacy was going to use and
Speaker 5: likely did go down towards the British Landing. This couple
Speaker 5: had seen a man that they described as medium height,
Speaker 5: medium build, a blonde hair or a lighter hair, and
Speaker 5: about eighteen years old, which seems to fit with your
Speaker 5: person of interest at the end. And also I believe
Speaker 5: Cleon as well.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, Cleon would have been the same age. He
Speaker 2: would have been about twenty the person that I name
Speaker 2: it at the end of the book, he would have
Speaker 2: been eighteen or nineteen at the time. And that particular couple,
Speaker 2: this is not the couple that found the purse. There
Speaker 2: was another couple, yes, who had started off on a
Speaker 2: carriage ride, and so when police interviewed them, they asked him, hey,
Speaker 2: what did you see along lake Shore Road because they
Speaker 2: were out there between like nine thirty and eleven, and
Speaker 2: they said, we only saw two things on lake Shore Road.
Speaker 2: We saw a couple on a tannem bike, which is
Speaker 2: the people that found the purse, and we saw a
Speaker 2: man eighteen to nineteen years old walking along. They give
Speaker 2: a description and he's walking with his shirt undone open shirt,
Speaker 2: and so that fits, you know, it fits not only
Speaker 2: with the age of mister Brown and the person that
Speaker 2: I name at the end of the book, but it
Speaker 2: fits with the criminal profiles done by the state police
Speaker 2: and the FBI too. So I think that those people
Speaker 2: on the bike, while they missed, just missed the murder
Speaker 2: of Francis Lacy, the other couple in the carriage ride
Speaker 2: probably saw the killer that morning.
Speaker 5: You included in this book too, that this person of interest,
Speaker 5: one year after Francis lacy murder, was arrested for the
Speaker 5: kidnapping and rape of a blind.
Speaker 2: Co ed that was his I should have mentioned that
Speaker 2: when I started in on this. But his first arrest,
Speaker 2: in fact, was in nineteen sixty one, and it was
Speaker 2: a year literally a July of sixty one. It was
Speaker 2: exactly a year after the Lacey homicide, and he had
Speaker 2: kidnapped a blind woman in ann Arbor where he was
Speaker 2: going to college, and raped her and committed an armed
Speaker 2: robbery and then stole her car. And so that's he
Speaker 2: went to prison for that, and he served I think
Speaker 2: seven or nine years of that sentence before he was released.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a very interesting case as well from the
Speaker 5: two murders that were dismissed over discrepancies over search warrants.
Speaker 5: But you described the details of those crimes that he
Speaker 5: was charged for. Brutal crimes and a brutal serial killer,
Speaker 5: no doubt.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. The murder of the sixteen year old that
Speaker 2: they suspect him of was in the early eighties. There
Speaker 2: was a sixteen year old girl up in Carson City, Michigan,
Speaker 2: that was kidnapped, and they found her body about two
Speaker 2: weeks later just west of Cadillac, Michigan, another tourist town
Speaker 2: in northern Michigan, and she had been strangled to the
Speaker 2: point that the ligature was so tight that it had
Speaker 2: ripped through her skin and rested against her spine. It
Speaker 2: was that severe, and someone had bitten down a license. Well,
Speaker 2: it turns out they searched his van and they obtained
Speaker 2: a bunch of trace evidence from inside the van. When
Speaker 2: he was at his preliminary examination for that murder, the
Speaker 2: search warrant was brought up and the fact that the
Speaker 2: deputy's statement, the detective's statement in the search warrant did
Speaker 2: not match the statements from some witnesses, and so the
Speaker 2: judge threw it out. He said it was an absolute
Speaker 2: blatant error, and he threw that search warrant out and
Speaker 2: the case collapsed. And so to this day, her murder
Speaker 2: remains unsolved, although they suspect without any doubt that was
Speaker 2: responsible for her death.
Speaker 5: And as is Francis Lacy's case as well.
Speaker 2: Absolutely still unsolved, same method of operation strangulation. I'm certain
Speaker 2: that there are things involved in certain details in the
Speaker 2: murder of that sixteen year old that I don't know
Speaker 2: that I have not been made privy to, if you will,
Speaker 2: but I suspect that there are details in there that
Speaker 2: would likely match up with the Lacy homicide.
Speaker 5: Certainly, it's an amazing chronicle of the exhaustive investigation that
Speaker 5: the Michigan State Police undertook to try to find the
Speaker 5: killer of Francis Lacey. I want to thank you very
Speaker 5: much for coming on and talking about your new book,
Speaker 5: Grim Paradise, The Cold Case Search for the mckinaw Island Killer.
Speaker 5: For those that might want to take a look at
Speaker 5: this information, more so, can you tell us where they
Speaker 5: might take a look?
Speaker 2: Absolutely you can find you can actually order signed copies
Speaker 2: of Grim Paradise The Cold Case Search for the Macina
Speaker 2: Island Killer on my website which is www dot Rod
Speaker 2: Sadler Rod SA, D L E R dot com. Or
Speaker 2: you can find copies of Grim Paradise on Amazon, at
Speaker 2: Barnes and Noble at a great tourist destination here in
Speaker 2: Michigan in Claire, Michigan called Cops and Donuts. Yes, it's
Speaker 2: a vaguely owned by cops and they carry my books
Speaker 2: there and several of the of the smaller bookstores around
Speaker 2: northern Michigan I've reached out to, including the Island Bookstore
Speaker 2: on Mackinaw Island. So any polis you can buy books,
Speaker 2: they should be able to order it for you.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Rod Sadler, Grim Paradise, the
Speaker 5: Cold Case Search for the Mackinaw Island Killer. Thank you
Speaker 5: so much for this interview, and you have a great
Speaker 5: evening and good night.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan, Thank you