Speaker 1: All right, welcome back to Babylon. We are the podcast
Speaker 1: that is watching and reacting and breaking down episodes of
Speaker 1: Babylon five. We just watched season two, episode nineteen. I
Speaker 1: believe divided loyalties.
Speaker 2: I'm deeply conflicted. This was a monkey's paw kind of thing. Man. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: I would love to say Lida again. Oh well, how
Speaker 2: would you feel about it? Us psychically dying?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we paid a price. We didn't know we had
Speaker 3: to pay exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: The Babylon Podcast was our last best hope for a
Speaker 4: deep dive, a self contained discussion for hosts, strong located
Speaker 4: in the neutral territory of the Zokolow, a place of
Speaker 4: commentary and analysis for two veterans and two newcomers, a
Speaker 4: shining beacon of fandom, all alone in the streaming void.
Speaker 4: It was the dawn of the streaming age, the year
Speaker 4: the great theories came upon us. All this is the
Speaker 4: story of Babylon. The year is twenty twenty six. The
Speaker 4: place wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 5: I'm Jenny.
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the show and I've watched
Speaker 1: it through multiple times.
Speaker 6: I'm Jen I'm a showrunner and screenwriter, and I watched
Speaker 6: the show back in the day, and I am pretty
Speaker 6: sure this was the episode I started with. Wow, really
Speaker 6: finally cut up, I went, I caught reruns and I
Speaker 6: caught some licens past, But like I'm this is I'm
Speaker 6: pretty sure this was my entry into the show.
Speaker 2: That's the hell of a start site. Yep, I'm gus.
Speaker 2: I am an actor. I like Leda Alexander a lot.
Speaker 2: I liked Alia Winters a lot. I'm very confused, and
Speaker 2: this is my first time watching the show.
Speaker 3: Ali, I'm the first time watch of the show and
Speaker 3: it is unnoticed.
Speaker 5: Well, can you tell me why the show is on notice?
Speaker 3: Is it not obvious.
Speaker 1: For the podcast listeners because of the character assassination of
Speaker 1: my girl.
Speaker 2: Character character the character.
Speaker 7: It will not stand JMS, this shall not stand. You
Speaker 7: shall be hearing from my lawyers.
Speaker 6: This was not like, this was not the character assassination
Speaker 6: and the like writers really like fucked up and didn't
Speaker 6: tell the character. This was literally like, I'm killing her
Speaker 6: character but keeping her on the show.
Speaker 2: There's a guy and the guy and they got to
Speaker 2: kill the guy. They're not going to kill the guy,
Speaker 2: but they're going to kind of kill the guy.
Speaker 7: I am I am bereading kill the guy. I am befuddled.
Speaker 4: M M.
Speaker 3: Why was isn't it Warren keV.
Speaker 2: Warren Keffer has great things in store for him, Ali,
Speaker 2: I'm sure he does.
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 2: Season one, Signs and Poor Tense, Season two, The Coming
Speaker 2: of Shadows, Season three, Keffer's uh Ship, Warren Keffer's day
Speaker 2: off the Kening.
Speaker 6: Yes, he goes, and he goes electric.
Speaker 2: I'm tokyo Keff.
Speaker 3: Listen. It was a great reveal. It's a great reveal,
Speaker 3: crazy reveal, not want to believe it?
Speaker 2: What the fuck?
Speaker 6: You guys were so cute dancing away from it the
Speaker 6: whole time. You're like, but it can't be okay.
Speaker 2: Because she was exposed to psychor but I don't want
Speaker 2: it to be. I didn't want I would rather it
Speaker 2: not be. I was like, well it's not probably. I
Speaker 2: was like, could we get no? But what I mean?
Speaker 2: Once it wasn't the main three, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: it's got to be Talia now because it's not going
Speaker 2: to be evolved. It's kind of got it because all
Speaker 2: I had so much screen time in this episode.
Speaker 5: Flabbergasted.
Speaker 1: Yes, she had lots of screen time in this episode.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I don't normally steer things as hard as
Speaker 1: I'm about to steer them. But I'm just I'm I'm
Speaker 1: utterly they were having a silky pajama sleep over.
Speaker 6: Yes, they were Jenny steer.
Speaker 2: Very close to each other's faces in a few different
Speaker 2: points in that thing there, and I was kind of
Speaker 2: watching it. I was like, I'm, yeah, I'm cool with this.
Speaker 2: I'm totally fine with this happening. I just don't think
Speaker 2: it's going to because it's the it's the nineties, and
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be the one who advocates.
Speaker 3: For it, but I will be writing the fan fic.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, what do you think actually,
Speaker 1: like canonically, because I'm I'm I'm okay, what do you
Speaker 1: think canonically happened?
Speaker 6: There?
Speaker 3: Girls girl having a sleepover?
Speaker 5: No, they were canonically doing it?
Speaker 6: What was Yeah? Yes, reached out in the bed and
Speaker 6: tell and one she was like she reached out stretched
Speaker 6: out for Evanava and there was empty bed.
Speaker 5: I can't believe I have to see it so far?
Speaker 5: How did you not? We're both shocked.
Speaker 6: We're both like, because.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to be the pervy man on the podcast,
Speaker 2: who went I met the two girls who are having
Speaker 2: to sleep over fucking That's why I didn't because.
Speaker 6: They were fucking. That's probably something about it.
Speaker 3: I said something about it.
Speaker 2: We had been just look.
Speaker 1: I saw Ali's face go oh, and then I saw
Speaker 1: you tamp down your feelings.
Speaker 5: There was a point in the up in your where
Speaker 5: you're because.
Speaker 3: I didn't believe in the nineties.
Speaker 7: That's the same that's the same thing is because I
Speaker 7: was like, well, they can't let me be one.
Speaker 2: When they first had their moment together, They're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we could spend more time together. I kind of went,
Speaker 2: are we too, And then I went no, because I
Speaker 2: would have heard about.
Speaker 6: That hang Outkalow. They were like, they were like, you're
Speaker 6: kinda You're kind of never you know, because I thought
Speaker 6: that shows.
Speaker 1: Up at her door with a bottle of wine and
Speaker 1: two glasses and the camera goes soft focus and bulls away.
Speaker 2: Look. I thought that, but I was never going to
Speaker 2: bring it up because if I was wrong, the optics
Speaker 2: are apocalyptically bad. There's a podcast with three women and Gus.
Speaker 2: Gus thinks they're lesbians.
Speaker 5: Bisexual had canceled.
Speaker 2: Now I've gone to.
Speaker 7: It always all right, Okay, my god, this is.
Speaker 6: Like Gus is like, just like he's Homer since sitting
Speaker 6: it out of here, because he's like, there's no way
Speaker 6: I will win.
Speaker 2: There's I've committed to that.
Speaker 7: I'm pretty sure the only person on this podcast now
Speaker 7: who has not been canceled me because.
Speaker 2: You canceled me during the podcast once.
Speaker 3: That wasn't cancelable and we told her to.
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, that's why I was like, I feel
Speaker 2: like they're implying heavily that there's a romantic involvement here,
Speaker 2: but I'm just not going to say it.
Speaker 7: I mean, I thought so. I said something about it.
Speaker 7: I was they're getting very close to each other's faces.
Speaker 7: You did, but I was like, nineties, they can't let
Speaker 7: me be happy you are?
Speaker 6: That is that is one hundred percent fair. That's one
Speaker 6: hundred percent fair and and and truly like you didn't
Speaker 6: see it because it was the nineties.
Speaker 2: Nineties. Yeah, when she reached out for her I was like,
Speaker 2: are they sleeping in the simp?
Speaker 6: I was waiting for you to scream in that moment,
Speaker 6: waiting you can't go back and watch it because.
Speaker 3: In the same bat as girlfriends all the time, and.
Speaker 6: She one reached out to the silk sat in sheets
Speaker 6: and be like, is someone.
Speaker 2: That we're wearing silk pajamas? I was a little bit like,
Speaker 2: that's why because in the episode I said, oh, silk pajamas.
Speaker 2: Huh you did? We were watching? I was like, am
Speaker 2: I picking up on something? And neither of you gave
Speaker 2: me a fucking inch. It was a bad Eyelashuly, yeah, gos,
Speaker 2: it's pajamas. That's what people do when they have sleeperms
Speaker 2: that wear pajamas.
Speaker 6: I was like, Okay, I guess I didn't say they
Speaker 6: were gonna do each other's nails, and they didn't say that.
Speaker 5: I didn't say that at all. I kept laughing because
Speaker 5: I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 1: I was like, why aren't they they're girls in pajamas
Speaker 1: in a bed well boom.
Speaker 6: I love so much about this, though, I have to
Speaker 6: jump in because Jenny and I are, like, with that question,
Speaker 6: a tiny bit older than the two of you. So
Speaker 6: we were in the nineties and we so for Jenny
Speaker 6: and I experiencing this firsthand, like okay, and also, as
Speaker 6: I just said, full disclosure, I'm pretty sure this was
Speaker 6: the first episode I saw. So I came into this
Speaker 6: show thinking that Evanna Va and Talia had had a
Speaker 6: relationship prior to this, and when I when when we
Speaker 6: started watching this again, I kept being like, what are
Speaker 6: they going to wait? And then finally Jenny and I
Speaker 6: talked about it and She's like, no, no, they never showed
Speaker 6: anything on screencaus as the nineties, and I was like,
Speaker 6: I just thought I'd missed it.
Speaker 1: No, no, it's but like they show, they show like
Speaker 1: they have meals together.
Speaker 5: They definitely flirt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure when they got really close in
Speaker 2: the room and I thought we both thought they were
Speaker 2: going to kiss.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but like in previous episodes, there's definitely flirting.
Speaker 1: There's also a moment where where Wayoun says to her
Speaker 1: Tylie Winters was very loud in your mind.
Speaker 2: I remember that too, and I remember going really.
Speaker 6: Yeah, which is why all the Garibali stuff confused me
Speaker 6: because I was like, huh. But but I also want
Speaker 6: to say, so Jenny and I watched this in the nineties,
Speaker 6: where I mean, truthfully, like there was a very progressive
Speaker 6: movement at the time, and I think probably both you
Speaker 6: and I were pretty conscious of progressive media and that
Speaker 6: it wasn't like there still wasn't much, but there was
Speaker 6: like we were starting to lean that way a little
Speaker 6: bit more so for me, it was like the fact
Speaker 6: that they didn't anything, it was just like they showed it.
Speaker 6: Like I feel like they showed a very obvious relationship,
Speaker 6: because that's as obvious it was good. I mean, this
Speaker 6: is what ninety five, So this is this is like
Speaker 6: two years before, which is I looked at the date
Speaker 6: because I was like, I'm trying to confirm that this
Speaker 6: is probably the first one I watched.
Speaker 5: Two years before Puppy and it's two years before.
Speaker 6: It's like two years before even like the movie In
Speaker 6: and Out, like which was one of the first the.
Speaker 1: Puppy episode, The Puppy episode of Ellen Jenness is the
Speaker 1: episode she came.
Speaker 6: Right right with Lord darn and so yeah, so I'm like,
Speaker 6: you know, I mean to me and at that point too,
Speaker 6: like Ellen hadn't come out in her show, but her
Speaker 6: show was actually on the air and everybody knew she
Speaker 6: was gay, so like, you know, even though they didn't
Speaker 6: talk about it. So for me, in a sense, like
Speaker 6: this was really forward and very obvious. But I see
Speaker 6: that someone who grew up knowing that we weren't talking
Speaker 6: about it in the nineties and weren't showing it in
Speaker 6: the nineties and probably weren't even discussing it much in
Speaker 6: the nineties. Would look at this today and be like,
Speaker 6: there's nothing there there. Let me know what.
Speaker 5: I know what you're about to bring up?
Speaker 2: I bet you probably do. There's two different things that
Speaker 2: would bring up. One of them you definitely thinking of.
Speaker 2: One of them is are you thinking of Deep Space nine?
Speaker 2: Are you thinking we have time?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 5: Deep Space nine two weeks.
Speaker 2: Later, two weeks later on Space nine. The reason why
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, if they were doing this, they
Speaker 2: would do it explicitly is because on Deep Space nine
Speaker 2: jed Zia Dax, who the character's gender is complicated because
Speaker 2: of but there's a what is functionally for the purposes Trump, Jesus,
Speaker 2: thank you. Functionally for the purposes of what is media consumption?
Speaker 2: Is there's two girls kiss on that show. And I
Speaker 2: was like, okay, well, because I was going in the
Speaker 2: nineties and Buffy did this too, didn't it where I was.
Speaker 5: Like okay, It was like five.
Speaker 2: Years later, okay, but I was like, okay, Deep Space
Speaker 2: nine did this and they showed it. And also the
Speaker 2: other reason why I didn't, I'm not by the way.
Speaker 2: To be very clear, I love the way this was
Speaker 2: done is really nice when I allow myself to I
Speaker 2: was looking at it through that lens the whole time,
Speaker 2: but I was like, surely I'm projecting twen twenty six
Speaker 2: onto this show right now. But when I also think
Speaker 2: of the other franchise that we all have in common,
Speaker 2: that we all talk about all the time, and it
Speaker 2: is directed right now, which is The Wheel of Time.
Speaker 2: The Wheel of Time, which is also a media franchise
Speaker 2: that came out in the nineties, has two characters who
Speaker 2: are the gayest characters in the world. They are so
Speaker 2: fucking gay for each other, and the author is just like,
Speaker 2: they're such good friends. This is what women friendship is like,
Speaker 2: this is what female friendship is. Like you get ked
Speaker 2: and like do all this. I'm like, they're very gay.
Speaker 2: They're extremely gay. So the reason why I was kind
Speaker 2: of like, I don't want to. I don't want to
Speaker 2: just the reason why I was I I want to
Speaker 2: commit to bringing this up of the podcast because I
Speaker 2: was just like, oh, there's a lot of precedent for
Speaker 2: this not being the way that men in particular right
Speaker 2: media in the nineties, and so that yeah, I'm thrilled.
Speaker 2: I'm very happy to be wrong.
Speaker 1: This is specifically canonical. GM is very much confirmed it
Speaker 1: at the time. Yeah, I want to uh. I have
Speaker 1: heard people say that they prefer the way it happened
Speaker 1: on because India sign they actually kiss like there's a
Speaker 1: full I will tell you myself, I prefer.
Speaker 5: The Babylon five.
Speaker 2: This is yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The d S nine one involves so much narrative gymnastics
Speaker 1: to get the girls to kiss, like it's not no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's not jad Za and this woman in love. It's
Speaker 1: when they were a man, so she's in love with
Speaker 1: the Yeah, it's not it's not two women kissing.
Speaker 6: It's like it's the man inside the women's soul. Yeah,
Speaker 6: the man is doing the kissing.
Speaker 5: And it's very Rick Bermany because Rick Berman was a homophobic.
Speaker 1: And so it's like he's put all this stuff around
Speaker 1: it like I'm gonna put all this stuff around to
Speaker 1: get the hot ladies to kiss so you can be
Speaker 1: turned on by it. But it's not kay whereas this
Speaker 1: we don't actually see them kiss, but it literally was
Speaker 1: just two women falling in And this is also much more.
Speaker 6: This is also one month after Zena Warrior Princess started airing.
Speaker 1: Yes, started airing, so there was it was not like
Speaker 1: even lesbian subtext at that point.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I mean it was obviously written before that
Speaker 6: started airing, and probably JMS wasn't aware of it, but
Speaker 6: it was definitely like it was deep in the guys
Speaker 6: at the time. I mean people were like, yeah, we
Speaker 6: just need to fucking get past it and see it.
Speaker 6: And you know, like we said, like we're a couple
Speaker 6: of years out from Ellen and and yet of course
Speaker 6: that destroyed her career in that moment as well. So
Speaker 6: there's all of that that like people weren't ready for it,
Speaker 6: I guess because that's stupid. Yeah, I mean like everybody
Speaker 6: was mostly footing around it and it was fucking ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Yes, And the JMS speaks, you see him getting a
Speaker 1: little angry because he prior to this had been getting
Speaker 1: a lot of letters and emails and stuff from concern,
Speaker 1: like from Christians being like, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: being tolerant of our faith. We know like you're an atheist,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being tolerant of us. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. And then the second he did this,
Speaker 1: they were like stop it, stop it, and he was
Speaker 1: like exactly, He's like, I'm an atheist and I wrote
Speaker 1: positively about religious people and you were grateful. I'm straight
Speaker 1: and I write a show about gay and now you're
Speaker 1: ang like Picolane like.
Speaker 5: He was so mad about it.
Speaker 1: He wrote like long, long, expansive angry responses to that,
Speaker 1: like you want me to be tolerant about you but not.
Speaker 5: About other peo and fuck off. But he didn't say it.
Speaker 5: He said it much more at length than that good friend.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but he was clear about it. And and and
Speaker 6: the characters also felt that way. I mean like they
Speaker 6: were they were playing it that truth, they were playing
Speaker 6: that truth. They weren't they weren't playing the fake truth
Speaker 6: of this is actually a man in my soul and
Speaker 6: were not really attracted to each other like they were playing.
Speaker 1: It was great, It was great, It's entire According to
Speaker 1: Claudia Christian and I don't know this is from her autobiography,
Speaker 1: but according to her, this was her idea where like
Speaker 1: we talked about this in the Gray Council, where like
Speaker 1: they she went to uh, I guess JMS, but she
Speaker 1: said she approached them and saying when they brought in
Speaker 1: an X for me.
Speaker 5: I became afraid that was going to be.
Speaker 1: My entire storyline, that every time they wanted an Evanava
Speaker 1: story they would bring in an X. And she was like,
Speaker 1: I don't want that to be my story. She's a professional,
Speaker 1: and if if you're gonna have her in a relationship,
Speaker 1: I'd rather have her in a relationship with And she
Speaker 1: said it.
Speaker 5: Like this, I don't know an alien or a woman.
Speaker 1: And she saw like the lights in their eyes go okay,
Speaker 1: we'll do that then, And so yeah.
Speaker 6: He was, you know, to say too. The JMS like
Speaker 6: in the Future, really confirmed that that was thing. But
Speaker 6: I don't think he was concurrent. He kind of doesn't.
Speaker 6: He kind of dance around it a little bit at
Speaker 6: the time.
Speaker 1: In the JMS speaks, I don't know when these these
Speaker 1: emails would have come to him, but people at the
Speaker 1: time were not they We're sure he and so he
Speaker 1: was responding to them in the like, fuck off, you
Speaker 1: liked it when I had good Christian people. Now you're
Speaker 1: angry when I have a character that you like you
Speaker 1: slept with a woman.
Speaker 6: Right right. So, But even like in JMS speaks here
Speaker 6: he does say he's like when Talia wakes up in
Speaker 6: Evanava's bed, finding her missing. It's tempting to jump to
Speaker 6: the obvious conclusion. However, we know that Avanav's quarters only
Speaker 6: has one caught, and of course Ivanava probably had a
Speaker 6: sofa couch that might have been used. So he's kind of.
Speaker 5: Dancing around of the all that except he does.
Speaker 1: There's another one who says, and I'm going to disagree
Speaker 1: with him on this one, but I can't because it's
Speaker 1: his story. But I'd still disagree with him. He said,
Speaker 1: Susan and Talia have been dancing around one another for months.
Speaker 1: That night, though, would have been the first time they
Speaker 1: got physically.
Speaker 6: Wait is that in this is that here too? That
Speaker 6: I missed this? I was reading that was not M speaks.
Speaker 6: I was reading the wrong section that talks about the
Speaker 6: obvious conclusion.
Speaker 2: Okay, So this person was like, well, we can't be sure.
Speaker 6: Gay, thank you. I was in the wrong section. I
Speaker 6: was like, wait, why is he saying this? Okay?
Speaker 7: Good?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, ok.
Speaker 3: Relationship is I'm kidding.
Speaker 2: I'm kidding because you guys, Joy, that's good. Never talk?
Speaker 3: Are you correcting the bill?
Speaker 2: I've never got for the rest of my life. I
Speaker 2: live in the shirt now. I live in the shirt.
Speaker 6: Now, no, don't live in the jar.
Speaker 3: Well, you know what we should have been.
Speaker 7: We should have known because Talia has one of the
Speaker 7: most bisexual voices voice.
Speaker 3: It was actually really.
Speaker 7: Funny because I was like, I was talking to my
Speaker 7: friend Tay, who is also bisexual last night. We're talking
Speaker 7: about the by energy so one has, and I was like,
Speaker 7: what is it about by people that they're just.
Speaker 3: So hot? I was like, it's it's it's this energy.
Speaker 7: It's this extra energy where you're like, oh, there's like
Speaker 7: there's like an extra thing going on and you just
Speaker 7: know it. And you're like, oh, there's like there's like
Speaker 7: it's like you've got like a fun little secret all
Speaker 7: the time. You're just like walking around. You're just like
Speaker 7: you don't know anything about me. I could kiss anybody
Speaker 7: at any time, Like you know, there's just like a vibe.
Speaker 7: And I was like, what is it? I was like bye,
Speaker 7: I was like, hey, or by people just like cooler
Speaker 7: than everyone. So that's what bisexuals talk about when no
Speaker 7: one else is bisexuals are really cool.
Speaker 1: That was one time when you commented on how you
Speaker 1: identified with the husky blonde woman with empathy and Jen
Speaker 1: and I in the breakouts were like the husky by
Speaker 1: woman with and empathy.
Speaker 5: By God, we were like, yeah.
Speaker 3: So I really identify with her that.
Speaker 7: And you know what, much like Talia, I too have
Speaker 7: one of the most bisexual voices you've ever heard in
Speaker 7: your life.
Speaker 5: Speaking of coming out.
Speaker 1: I again, I feel like an idiot. I don't know
Speaker 1: that I've noticed this before. It's just like the blessing
Speaker 1: I guess of going through the episode episodes likes and
Speaker 1: breaking them down and thinking about this like this. But
Speaker 1: in the episode where it is officially confirmed that Ivanova
Speaker 1: is sleeping with the woman and is bisexual, she has
Speaker 1: an extended coming out scene. It feels incredibly familiar as
Speaker 1: somebody who has had to come out.
Speaker 3: Who aimes extensive coming out scene.
Speaker 6: I mean about her coming out scene, about about her
Speaker 6: being a late and telepath, but it's it is written
Speaker 6: like a coming out scene.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's very much like a coming out.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That's awesome.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah. And Jenny, oh my god, I just realized in
Speaker 6: the Lurkers guide, like, you know, there's a little diagram
Speaker 6: in the middle of it. I thought I thought that
Speaker 6: was the end. That's how I missed him talking about it,
Speaker 6: there's entirely I was like, it's pretty long. Oh no,
Speaker 6: oh no, it keeps.
Speaker 5: Going, goes on and on. Yeah, one goes on for
Speaker 5: a while.
Speaker 1: So okay, now that we've done that, and I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Like I said, I normally don't want to steer you
Speaker 1: into Facebook, steer.
Speaker 2: Whatever you want whatever.
Speaker 3: That was appropriate.
Speaker 2: That was very important, and that was something that apparently
Speaker 2: both of us were like surely not like.
Speaker 7: I was just like the nineties, like you know, women
Speaker 7: were roommates.
Speaker 6: Honestly, your your experience is similar to what mine was
Speaker 6: often in the nineties, which is I would get really
Speaker 6: excited because I felt like maybe something was actually going
Speaker 6: to represent that, and then it didn't, and then someone
Speaker 6: and like wrote the cannon away from it so that
Speaker 6: it was like oh no, no no, like like the like
Speaker 6: the dad stuff. And so in a sense, I get like,
Speaker 6: you're you're just your choice of being self preserving, like
Speaker 6: because you're like it's the nineties, they're not gonna they're
Speaker 6: not actually gonna like let that be real, it's fair.
Speaker 6: But what I think, you know, like, yeah.
Speaker 3: Queer representation is so rough.
Speaker 7: I think that I have a history of just like
Speaker 7: looking for queerness where there isn't any a lot of
Speaker 7: the time, or like like inserting queerness.
Speaker 5: That was the experience in the nineties right general.
Speaker 7: And so I was just like, oh, I'm doing that
Speaker 7: thing again where I'm inserting queerness where there is none,
Speaker 7: because I just like like that, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I like queerness. What can I say? So I was
Speaker 3: just like, I think it's neat.
Speaker 2: Have you read the Haunting of Hill House? Any of you?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 5: No, I don't do well with horror.
Speaker 2: It's absolutely zero relation to the Mike Flannagan show, which
Speaker 2: is great, but like absolutely fucking nothing could comment at all.
Speaker 2: But it as the most obvious fucking gay women relationship
Speaker 2: in it that ever. I think it was written in
Speaker 2: like the what like the fifties or something, and there's
Speaker 2: these two this one of the women who was there
Speaker 2: is like, yeah, you know this my good friend inherited
Speaker 2: a house and I had been kind of working for
Speaker 2: her with her, and she had me move in and
Speaker 2: then I just kind of stayed around. They thought she
Speaker 2: was going to get married, but she didn't, and so
Speaker 2: then you know, I just stayed living with her for
Speaker 2: a while and then we had a big fight. You know,
Speaker 2: twenty years in and so I figured i'd take a
Speaker 2: little time away. And now I'm here and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: so you were functionally just yeay, yeah you didn't say it.
Speaker 2: The book is so gay and that was great. Also scary,
Speaker 2: but not scary, not scary in like a like a
Speaker 2: like a like a homophobia way, just scary.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I get canceled if by blink the wrong way. Right now,
Speaker 2: so nobody's canceled.
Speaker 3: Everyone's canceled except for Jen. That's what you decided.
Speaker 6: Thanks, Yes, it will happen.
Speaker 3: Watch yourself.
Speaker 1: Now that we've i think plumbed the depths of that,
Speaker 1: do you wanted to actually talk.
Speaker 3: About a turn of phrase?
Speaker 2: Dude, Talia is dead man. That sucks bisexual.
Speaker 3: We're going to fix it. We're going to fix it.
Speaker 7: We're going to fix it. I don't know how, but
Speaker 7: we're going to fix it. Susan will be on that
Speaker 7: like buys on hot women. Never get in the way
Speaker 7: of a bisexual and her emotional support.
Speaker 3: Hot woman never.
Speaker 7: That's gonna be the biggest mistake they've ever made. She's
Speaker 7: going to figure out a way. She's a late and telepath.
Speaker 7: She's got the technology we're gonna make it up.
Speaker 2: This was bananas. Well, by the way, lead us back
Speaker 2: everybody for a minute. Anyways, Yeah, you.
Speaker 5: Got really excited.
Speaker 6: Who wrote the spot?
Speaker 3: How did you?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Sorry, I was just it was jam okay, yes.
Speaker 2: Directed, it was it was it a later Jim Johnson
Speaker 2: bit is Trevino.
Speaker 6: I think he directed again?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The the thing I screamed about
Speaker 2: the beginning, it said guest star Patricia Tolman. Is that
Speaker 2: her name? Patricia Tollman is lead Alexander and the one what?
Speaker 2: And then you were.
Speaker 7: Looking away At the time, I wasn't paying attention at all,
Speaker 7: but that was that was a fun reveal.
Speaker 2: I hope you go back again.
Speaker 5: I will say.
Speaker 1: Also, yes, that's another thing, because I told you this before,
Speaker 1: I didn't see the pilot.
Speaker 5: So this was another one of those episodes where're like, oh,
Speaker 5: they made up a flashback because.
Speaker 2: They just really funny.
Speaker 1: I had no idea it was. No, that's actually a
Speaker 1: thing that happen, And in the show it's just like,
Speaker 1: all right, that's amazing making up flashbacks.
Speaker 5: Cool.
Speaker 2: A lot going on, man, When Leita's showing up hanging
Speaker 2: out being on the run from Mars more Mars Mars
Speaker 2: continuing to be very very important. Tali is dead for
Speaker 2: now at least we're bringing her back, No way, BLib
Speaker 2: blue blah blah blue blue blab Caush is just getting
Speaker 2: his suit out, getting his lights out, just whipping it out,
Speaker 2: man and everybody.
Speaker 1: There were two cash scenes in this episode. There was
Speaker 1: one that was a flashback and then one that was
Speaker 1: like a current one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what are they gonna what? Are they a serial
Speaker 2: flasher Italian? They remembering how cash did they gotcha? Trauma
Speaker 2: on her? So like, what are they gonna do now?
Speaker 2: I don't like the ramifications. Are they just going to
Speaker 2: put her in some kind of like trauma loop lockdown?
Speaker 2: That would be deeply uncomfortable? Okay, but we also just
Speaker 2: exterminated the markab last episode, so whatever.
Speaker 6: Not steering away from comfort, No, he's very much not.
Speaker 5: And yeah, yeah, flashed out of his suit and was
Speaker 5: a ring light.
Speaker 2: Apparently it was a ring light because it was standard
Speaker 2: definition television.
Speaker 6: He's like, girlfriend, you just need me naked, here go,
Speaker 6: here go.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pretty much. She's like, please, dudes, please.
Speaker 2: If I bring you, if I fill your water bottle,
Speaker 2: you show me your boots.
Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly right, exactly what it was.
Speaker 10: Oh my god. I tried to think if there's anything
Speaker 10: else to talk about in this.
Speaker 6: One, He's like, is canceled now it's the boobs whatever.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, out of pocket ship, what either could
Speaker 2: you leave? So, okay, here's something. Here's something. Vanda Do
Speaker 2: Man episode Zanda Do Man episode Alpha did was Talia's thing?
Speaker 2: Alpha sixty sixth data whatever did? Was there a way
Speaker 2: to determine that?
Speaker 5: Literally?
Speaker 1: I don't know, because Gus I have never paid attention
Speaker 1: to it is granular detail.
Speaker 2: As I have this time, I gotta go back and
Speaker 2: I got to watch through and see if Talia ever
Speaker 2: said Alpha six sixth day to three. Okay, here's the I.
Speaker 5: Don't know, but she was control at that time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes it. Here's a funny thing. Control advised
Speaker 2: that they kill Talia Winters that.
Speaker 5: Okay, that is another thing. He goes over a lot
Speaker 5: in the thing.
Speaker 1: Apparently it wasn't control, it was whatever Bureau thirteen okay,
Speaker 1: and yeah, so and the personality control and whatever it
Speaker 1: is is self preservation is it's ultimate goal. So it
Speaker 1: could have adapted the command to preserve herself because it's
Speaker 1: unlikely that whoever was giving the command knew who they
Speaker 1: were giving the command.
Speaker 2: Right, okay, okay, okay, okay, right, okay.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so it's people, because people definitely ask that.
Speaker 6: Oh you do you want to read that one? Or
Speaker 6: does it not matter? Sure, there's nothing in it. There's
Speaker 6: nothing in that if Talia was in. The question was
Speaker 6: if Talia was control inspider in the web, why would
Speaker 6: she order herself eliminated? My sense, and this is a response,
Speaker 6: My sense was that I think this is the gymis speaks.
Speaker 6: It's so damn long, I can't even tell what section
Speaker 6: I meant.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 6: My sense was that the control part, which sometimes moved
Speaker 6: at night, reported that the mission could be jeopardized. Then
Speaker 6: B thirteen gave the order to eliminate. No where does
Speaker 6: it say that control said the second half.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, all right, that makes sense.
Speaker 6: It's this also says control was referred to as he
Speaker 6: and he as His response is you always refer to
Speaker 6: agents in the single heat form to avoid giving away identities.
Speaker 6: That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Speaker 5: Yes, he was quite I read about that.
Speaker 7: He was like, it was affer until I realized they
Speaker 7: didn't want to give him a plot.
Speaker 1: Yes, one other thing, just because I think some people
Speaker 1: got in the weeds in this, and he gave a
Speaker 1: really cool metaphor for what he's doing.
Speaker 5: I'm trying to find here.
Speaker 1: One of his friends is Harlan Ellison, who was like
Speaker 1: a very famous author that he is a consultant on
Speaker 1: the show. And apparently I'm trying to find it but
Speaker 1: I can't. But apparently Harlan used to like to do
Speaker 1: this performance art thing where he would go to cafes
Speaker 1: or bookstores and write a book, like write several chapters
Speaker 1: while people watched, and he would like, as he finished
Speaker 1: a page, he would tape it up to the wall
Speaker 1: and keep writing.
Speaker 5: And the point was that he could never go back.
Speaker 2: Oh, he had to only write forward.
Speaker 1: Right, And so in the stuff back he might have changed.
Speaker 1: He changed his mind on like page twelve about something
Speaker 1: that he'd written on page stupid. He can't go back,
Speaker 1: he can't go back and fix it. And Jamie says,
Speaker 1: that's pretty much what I'm doing. It's with the show, Like.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he says, wait, is this the place where it is?
Speaker 6: He's said absolutely nothing from prior seasons or episodes has
Speaker 6: been discarded and then he says, well, no, that's not
Speaker 6: where he says the thing about going back, Damn, I
Speaker 6: read the brown part again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just like the idea is that, you know,
Speaker 1: even if I want to alter things, I have to
Speaker 1: find a way to do it.
Speaker 2: I can't go back, Yeah, commit to what I already wrote.
Speaker 1: I have to commit to what I wrote, because that's
Speaker 1: like when you're writing shows. This is not the same
Speaker 1: as sitting down and writing an entire season at once.
Speaker 1: He's writing them as they're airing, right.
Speaker 2: So because it is also go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 6: Oh well, I just I did find it. So you're
Speaker 6: talking about Harlan and Allison and then talking about high
Speaker 6: taped to the wall. He says, that's pretty much what
Speaker 6: I'm doing here. It's an ongoing story. I can't go back.
Speaker 6: I can only go forward. As each page or episode
Speaker 6: is finished, it's put up on the wall and I
Speaker 6: have to go on to the next one. So far,
Speaker 6: I've written twenty four hundred pages on that wall. Again,
Speaker 6: I can't go back and change anything. If there's a
Speaker 6: bump caused by a real world incident, it simply has
Speaker 6: to be accommodated as best I can will still going
Speaker 6: forward where I have to go. I think he's referring
Speaker 6: to Sheridan's clearing. He says, from time to time, there's
Speaker 6: going to be a misstroke on the keyboard, or there's
Speaker 6: going to be a typo that I'll miss. That's inevitable
Speaker 6: when you're out performing in front of a massive crowd
Speaker 6: on the high wire without a net. As long as
Speaker 6: the totality of it all hangs together, as long as
Speaker 6: the story is told, the trick finally done, then that's
Speaker 6: what fundamentally matters. Yeah, it's cool, it's really cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. Yeah, it's just a few things that
Speaker 2: I'm mulling over ramifications from earlier. But a lot of
Speaker 2: them are probably I'm thinking too hard about it, so
Speaker 2: I won't.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'm curious always as to what you're
Speaker 1: thinking too hard about, but okay.
Speaker 2: Well, one of them is Jason Ironheart was like a
Speaker 2: P seven million, right, something like that. Yeah, it's odd
Speaker 2: that he was not cognizant of this.
Speaker 1: That is also addressed in the larger yes you are
Speaker 1: you understand that this is a show watched and loved
Speaker 1: by nerds.
Speaker 5: Hold on, not Jason going to be Ironheart, I.
Speaker 2: Told me to just make you guys popcorn through the
Speaker 2: Lurkers guide. I'm just thinking, saw the ass.
Speaker 1: Couldn't iron Heart have removed control? Was Talia the original personality?
Speaker 1: Since control was the construct the alternate personality was dormant
Speaker 1: at the time that Ironheart was there, so sure it
Speaker 1: wasn't primarily there. And then this is the part. Remember
Speaker 1: that iron Heart was not seeing Talia under the best
Speaker 1: of conditions. He was fighting hard not to use his
Speaker 1: abilities for any reason because it created mind quicks He
Speaker 1: was pulling everything in and later he was shot. So
Speaker 1: not exactly in a good position to be like, yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah he was. He was highly stressed and evolving into
Speaker 5: a new type of.
Speaker 2: Turning into his starchild. Yeah, it's a shame that he
Speaker 2: gave her telekinesis because now she fuckings socks. For now, Yeah, for.
Speaker 3: Now, we're going to fix it. I'm in denial, vehement,
Speaker 3: vehement denial. Okay, I am in say I'm in Egypt
Speaker 3: because I'm in denial.
Speaker 5: So do you have any questions? You're thinking too hard
Speaker 5: about that?
Speaker 1: Perhaps jam has answered, because you were not the only
Speaker 1: nerd he was thinking about.
Speaker 5: The check.
Speaker 2: There was the one that I mentioned between recordings, but
Speaker 2: that was based on something that you told us at
Speaker 2: the end of season one that it was not explicitly
Speaker 2: we talked about.
Speaker 7: Can we talk about that, I now have hope Takashima returns,
Speaker 7: or no, can we not talk about I think returns.
Speaker 2: You told us that Takashima was originally supposed to shoot Garibaldi,
Speaker 2: and I don't think Takashima was an ass. Was Takashima
Speaker 2: supposed to be this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, literally quoting quoting jas Yes, Laurel would have been control.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's literally, it's like literally seventeen paragraphs. Now, there's
Speaker 6: like seven pair wraps about that in this, in this
Speaker 6: wanted to be controlled.
Speaker 3: I have hope now that she's returned.
Speaker 2: She was supposed to be because she punched in the
Speaker 2: code and the things coming.
Speaker 6: And Evanava was supposed to be sort of Takashima's second
Speaker 6: in command, like like the guy who came to and
Speaker 6: he said you're doing a great job and then he
Speaker 6: sent him away, Like yeah, yeah, so that would have
Speaker 6: been Evanah and Takashima would have been controlled and pulled away.
Speaker 3: I'm very excited.
Speaker 6: He also says this, but he also says this thing
Speaker 6: about like Talia, and he says, like from the first,
Speaker 6: from the second, from the first episode, after the pilot,
Speaker 6: he knew it was already like he was like, I'm
Speaker 6: putting Talia in that position. And he was like, if
Speaker 6: you go back, I can't find this one, Jenny. But
Speaker 6: he says, if you go back and look at a
Speaker 6: lot of the shots of Talia, she's looking in a
Speaker 6: mirror or they're in a mirror.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: I will point out that was a big thing with
Speaker 1: with the cash trauma syne. He said, she asked what
Speaker 1: was on that crystal? He said, reflections, right, So.
Speaker 3: We're going to fix it.
Speaker 2: Wesh. Some maybe they got like a backup of her personality. Somehow,
Speaker 2: I doubt it. You can't put a whole personality to data, cres.
Speaker 3: How do you know, have we tried.
Speaker 2: I just don't think Gilbert Godfried is capable of that.
Speaker 2: I think Cosh could do that, but I'm not sure
Speaker 2: that Gilbert Godfried and his hat or capable of that.
Speaker 3: I think he can fix her. Maybe he just needs
Speaker 3: to flash her one.
Speaker 5: Time, show her his boobs.
Speaker 6: That's right.
Speaker 3: So the healing power of boobs.
Speaker 1: The healing power we make one of our general make
Speaker 1: one of ours two cash heads right at the boob
Speaker 1: placed on it.
Speaker 6: With inter nipples right in the middle.
Speaker 5: You are in charge of the T shirt making.
Speaker 6: That one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're gonna have soon.
Speaker 3: The best the fast shirts.
Speaker 2: There's something that we could talk about, goes, I don't
Speaker 2: know who I am? And then we flash into the
Speaker 2: dreamland with do you know who I am?
Speaker 1: Which is actually when yeah, incidentally Italian, I'm sorry, no,
Speaker 1: I was, yes, but when that dream happened, you actually
Speaker 1: made the theory that maybe she's a latent telepath, and
Speaker 1: that was what that's that's what that was.
Speaker 5: That's literally what that scene in the dream was.
Speaker 3: You are laughed at me.
Speaker 6: You ever that you say that every week, You're.
Speaker 7: Laughing right down you just because.
Speaker 5: It's the romantic face touching you learned in marriage.
Speaker 6: Is I'm romantically face touching myself here?
Speaker 5: Hey, no, no, no, no, we don't do that in public.
Speaker 6: Okay, Actually I was romantically I was romantically kissing my cat.
Speaker 6: I apologize for the kizzie sounds if you watched the
Speaker 6: last I was.
Speaker 5: Just about to make a very very dirty and I'm
Speaker 5: just so happy to.
Speaker 7: Receiving that love that cat was the happiest cat in
Speaker 7: the world, so delightful.
Speaker 5: I want to make a lesbian joke, and I'm gonna let.
Speaker 6: That one, but we're not talking about my cat.
Speaker 1: Stop saying okay anyway, okay, so let's see. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what that was the crow as yet, not necessarily I.
Speaker 3: Decided what that was that was, didn't I?
Speaker 2: You did? What was it for the shadows shadow stuff,
Speaker 2: which would make sense because she's suppressing her. So that
Speaker 2: was what the dream was meant to be, was that
Speaker 2: she was latent telepathic.
Speaker 5: That's what that.
Speaker 2: Now I got to think about the rest of the ship,
Speaker 2: the man in the between, I.
Speaker 7: Already have, I've already created an entire you all laughed
Speaker 7: at me that whole time.
Speaker 5: We're never.
Speaker 7: I wanted to move on, and now look at you,
Speaker 7: you all eating crow right now.
Speaker 5: It wasn't a crow. It was a raven. It was
Speaker 5: a raven.
Speaker 1: But yes, eating crow, that's what that was, eating ravens.
Speaker 1: So okay, but yeah, that's what that was, very nice.
Speaker 6: Right here.
Speaker 3: But yeah, because then there was also wait, who else
Speaker 3: was in the dream?
Speaker 7: Garibaldi and Cash and he had the doll on his shoulder.
Speaker 2: A dove and he said the man was man.
Speaker 5: In between between is looking for you.
Speaker 3: The man in between, well, could be job.
Speaker 2: I can't do this again right now? What am I telling?
Speaker 7: The man in between could be the shadow people, could
Speaker 7: be Jeff could be Jeff could be, could be.
Speaker 2: A man in between because he's got a he's got
Speaker 2: a Minbari soul.
Speaker 5: Mhm okay.
Speaker 6: Ostensibly episode with Nolando and Jakar and I didn't miss
Speaker 6: them until.
Speaker 2: Didn't mind it all? Man, listen, you get this much
Speaker 2: Talia Winters. Oh, I'm sorry. Can we take a second
Speaker 2: talk about Talia Winter's villain edition. Uh, I'm surprised that
Speaker 2: all of everybody else got through that unscathed because I
Speaker 2: thought that was that was that was pretty great. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was pretty great. You had a white You don't
Speaker 2: want to talk about hot villains, Talia Winter.
Speaker 3: Of course I do. I just am. Also, there's there's
Speaker 3: puzzles for me.
Speaker 2: I was talking about bisexual villains.
Speaker 3: But if I started a rumination, I will not stop.
Speaker 2: Ever going to happen. So I'm never going to come
Speaker 2: back to sexual villain.
Speaker 3: No, I do love her. Bisexual villain.
Speaker 2: Queer do crime that is j M. For this episode,
Speaker 2: is that.
Speaker 6: Actually that is definitely a crime.
Speaker 5: Crimes. I think it's just like random vandalism that it
Speaker 5: came up.
Speaker 2: Talia Winters do bisexuality and also crimes. It is really
Speaker 2: quite unsettling to think that the control was like, I'm
Speaker 2: going to seduce Evanova or help to seduce Evanava. That's
Speaker 2: quite upsetting.
Speaker 7: Bisexual path with a with a deep voice. I was like,
Speaker 7: I think I should sue.
Speaker 6: I think I think idly, I think villain. I think
Speaker 6: that this is my canon that I have written, is
Speaker 6: that is that that villain Talia is just so bad
Speaker 6: that she would say that just a hurt Evanova because
Speaker 6: she doesn't. It was very much to know that, like
Speaker 6: real Talia actually had feelings, actually had feelings, and so
Speaker 6: she's just making she did.
Speaker 2: I know she did, but I'm I'm. The thing that
Speaker 2: I think is yucky about it is the villain Talia control.
Speaker 2: Talia could then be like and I'm going to push
Speaker 2: that even harder.
Speaker 5: Exactly, Yeah, she's just cruel.
Speaker 2: Exactly mean, she's just an evil, shitty, fucking god fuck
Speaker 2: py corps man. Why did I ever say that.
Speaker 3: I support women's rights and women's wrong suck Pye Corp.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yes, Charlie, sorry, that was a Charlie quote. Yes, Okay,
Speaker 1: so we've gotten over that. We've gone over uh basically
Speaker 1: Talia's character assassination, her betrayal Lyda Uh.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 1: We've talked about Lida returning and going to see Cash.
Speaker 1: She's been trying to get into Vorlan space this whole time.
Speaker 2: A lot of people have been that's come up before.
Speaker 2: At least one other person has talked about trying to
Speaker 2: get into morel On space.
Speaker 6: It does feel a little bit like she's kind of
Speaker 6: got a little bit of an addiction going on. She's like,
Speaker 6: I need more.
Speaker 2: Away.
Speaker 3: Did you feel a little addiction coded?
Speaker 7: And I was like, I mean bisexuals do love booths
Speaker 7: as she gives neurotic bisexual like, let's be honest.
Speaker 2: Glad she's here.
Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, I hope she comes back.
Speaker 7: There is a specific brand of bisexual that are neurotic bisexuals.
Speaker 3: Tell me I'm wrong.
Speaker 5: I mean, no, I'm not.
Speaker 6: We haven't brought there is one other sort of thing
Speaker 6: that we haven't brought up though.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
Speaker 6: Delenn All the and my my niece Saviana says, but
Speaker 6: but tea about people's butts. That makes me giggle.
Speaker 1: I just I also ump that you have a niece
Speaker 1: named Fantastic. I have a poster of Abenda somewhere on
Speaker 1: my wall.
Speaker 2: But everything, everything that is happening with the the the
Speaker 2: very very very slow kindling of whatever that is. I'm
Speaker 2: never going to assume anybody is romantically involved over again,
Speaker 2: because I'm gonna get it wrong someday. The very slow
Speaker 2: kindling of romance between Delenn and Sheridan makes me.
Speaker 3: They're definitely into each other, definitely.
Speaker 2: I will have gone nowhere. We'll see more cherry tomatoes
Speaker 2: any day now.
Speaker 3: But that one makes ver semon.
Speaker 2: You know what.
Speaker 1: I'm okay, you guys just talk amongst yourself. I'm sending jennadon.
Speaker 2: Okay. Well, hey, Ali, how do you feel about bisexual
Speaker 2: villain era.
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 2: I love bisexual villain area. Sad about Talia being potentially dead.
Speaker 2: They're having sneaky tip type conversation. I don't like anything
Speaker 2: that's happening right now, except that we might get information
Speaker 2: out of them and we might not.
Speaker 1: Okay, not yet, God damn it.
Speaker 6: That was deliciously fun to like do that in real time,
Speaker 6: and then.
Speaker 1: I know, have fun for whom me bullshit?
Speaker 2: Now you understand, Uh yeah, I love that, love that
Speaker 2: that's happening.
Speaker 5: I know it's so I just it was so cute.
Speaker 2: I'm going to guess you go you were done.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, if if if mirror Furlong
Speaker 1: was looking at me saying but but but.
Speaker 5: I might be a puddle. I think I would just
Speaker 5: on the floor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to guess what you two were typing
Speaker 2: to each other. You're going to guess Jenny said, can
Speaker 2: we tell them that the Jeff fruit thing goes nowhere yet?
Speaker 2: Or should we hold off? And Jen said, let's hold
Speaker 2: off a little while.
Speaker 6: I love how how how fifty of that is right?
Speaker 6: I'm going to tell you straight up, fifty percent of
Speaker 6: what you just said is right. The part where you said, Jen,
Speaker 6: can we tell them about and I said, no, let's
Speaker 6: wait that Literally.
Speaker 5: The first the sentence was word for word. It was
Speaker 5: a little weird.
Speaker 6: Ye, the second half of it may or may not
Speaker 6: have been right.
Speaker 2: Just just do me favorite pin that message in your
Speaker 2: discord chat so that when we eventually can learn, we
Speaker 2: can come back. If you don't, Jen can we tell
Speaker 2: them about Can we tell them about the.
Speaker 3: Fact that Delenn and Jeff are married.
Speaker 2: No, they're never going to give us anything ever. Again,
Speaker 2: they're typing again a keyboard.
Speaker 3: I hear it.
Speaker 6: I get here, I can type to I was right.
Speaker 7: I was right, has an issue because that issue is
Speaker 7: an issue.
Speaker 6: And also my discord said, Jenny is typing, and then
Speaker 6: it said and then it went away.
Speaker 5: That's what he.
Speaker 3: Called it out.
Speaker 2: How about least do we want to talk about least?
Speaker 2: We could do that. We are going to talk with
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 3: We have a new lease on life. Can we tell them?
Speaker 7: Can we there are just no you know what it is, guys,
Speaker 7: they're just mocking me for they're all laugh think of me.
Speaker 5: I was gonna edit this out of the podcast.
Speaker 6: You want. This is incredible for anybody listening. I wish
Speaker 6: you could see my face right now. Well, I'm left packeting,
Speaker 6: she's pagetting. I'm thinking she's taking I'm pincketting out of water.
Speaker 6: I'm dying here.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have done that live, but I just I
Speaker 1: realized I had I had to ask you.
Speaker 2: Now, I willed to tell them Lida comes back.
Speaker 6: I mean, what can we tell them? Leda comes back.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, I'm still reading back what Jenny wrote. Oh yeah, can.
Speaker 7: We tell them also comes.
Speaker 6: Correct for what we've done.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you getting the first part of this
Speaker 1: seconds down, it's amazing you.
Speaker 2: Got the first part is the worst day of my life.
Speaker 2: This was the best day earlier. That's good again.
Speaker 1: You know what this is. I am on behalf of Ali.
Speaker 1: This is revenge, yeah, yes.
Speaker 7: But I am also being affected ship I've read or
Speaker 7: watched some day. One of these days, I'm gonna have
Speaker 7: watched something you all haven't watched, and then we'll see.
Speaker 7: We'll see indeed, who's laughing at whom the table because
Speaker 7: you're all laughing.
Speaker 3: At me this whole time.
Speaker 6: We're just laughing around you.
Speaker 7: No, and I stay winning. I slay my enemies and
Speaker 7: my friends.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, that's fair.
Speaker 2: Uh, well, you know, a good episode. I'm very sad,
Speaker 2: but I'm also very happy.
Speaker 3: I'm very sad.
Speaker 2: I'm also very sad.
Speaker 7: And I'm angry with you all for making me sad
Speaker 7: on this lovely Monday evening.
Speaker 5: Well, there was girl kissing implied, girl kissing.
Speaker 3: Girl applied, Yeah, kissing, I suppose.
Speaker 6: And just so you know, They never actually did shoot
Speaker 6: the scene with them kissing and cut it. They just
Speaker 6: didn't shoot it because he decided that, like, we didn't
Speaker 6: need to actually shoot it.
Speaker 3: Cowards.
Speaker 5: Yeah, release tell you.
Speaker 2: That, release the makeup, bring back shall On. This is
Speaker 2: and for that do not. Can we tell them that
Speaker 2: shall Mayan was also canonically gay? That's what it was.
Speaker 5: That's totally entirely.
Speaker 3: Who is the.
Speaker 2: One's gay friend?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, the gay friend. I forgot about the gay friend.
Speaker 2: Grab what's happening?
Speaker 3: I'm tired.
Speaker 2: I don't know what's happening anymore.
Speaker 6: Did we just hold up my camera?
Speaker 2: What is going on? Holding things up the key? What
Speaker 2: is going on here?
Speaker 6: Do you want me? I think I know, I think
Speaker 6: I know what? What? What?
Speaker 5: Yea yea yea yeah yeah yeah, just to wait? Why
Speaker 5: would you show you what you're doing? This is from
Speaker 5: my convention.
Speaker 2: I just thought, Charlie, sorry for.
Speaker 5: The podcast listeners.
Speaker 1: This is Claudia Christian and Andrea Thompson at a convention kissing.
Speaker 11: Because that's so sweet. Yes, thank god, thank you for
Speaker 11: showing me that. We don't even need a I.
Speaker 5: No, I's gonna say, no need for that.
Speaker 1: Actually have ladies kiss each other that's perfectly fine.
Speaker 3: That's better, even much.
Speaker 5: Better, much better, much better. Okay, do I don't know
Speaker 5: that I have anything else to bring up. Apologies for
Speaker 5: the torture.
Speaker 2: We deserve that, we deserve that and more for the
Speaker 2: least thing.
Speaker 5: Yes, you're right, never mind, I take it all back.
Speaker 3: But we do.
Speaker 2: We tortured her for twenty minutes about least notably that
Speaker 2: same episode I mentioned, Yeah, the one that same time,
Speaker 2: I said, and you remembered Lida because you said you
Speaker 2: had to look up Takashima in the pilot, but you
Speaker 2: didn't have to.
Speaker 3: You're wrong because she's coming back.
Speaker 2: But also, Takashima's actress said, fuck this ship, I'm out,
Speaker 2: and Lda's actress said, I'm going to go to Jurassic Park.
Speaker 3: She would, so fuck the ship. I'm out.
Speaker 2: She said, I don't want to do uh. I don't
Speaker 2: want to be in a show about the military. You
Speaker 2: told us that I look anything up. You told us
Speaker 2: that I don't think I blocked Google.
Speaker 5: You are right, you are right. I'm trying to think.
Speaker 5: I'm going to tell you another sentence.
Speaker 1: Another thought from the Looker's guide here, because, as he said,
Speaker 1: Laura was supposed to be control, he said. Part of
Speaker 1: the reason he thought this would be good for h
Speaker 1: is it Tamra Timita, what's her name? I think Hamlin,
Speaker 1: thank you. She had a burgeoning film career, and he
Speaker 1: didn't think they would be able to keep her for
Speaker 1: the entire show anyway. So it's like this will be
Speaker 1: a way to you knows, because.
Speaker 5: You you rework things.
Speaker 6: He even says. He he says, when I took la
Speaker 6: off the board, he says, when I took Laura off
Speaker 6: the board, elements of this were transferred to other characters
Speaker 6: he's talking about with and then she was going to
Speaker 6: be a trader. Initially she was going to be the
Speaker 6: one to shoot Garibaldi. But then when she when she
Speaker 6: left the show, like things were, things were changed, but
Speaker 6: she wouldn't have been control.
Speaker 5: Just yeah, yeah, but that was the thought.
Speaker 2: It's just like, okay, this is well, this was great.
Speaker 5: I hated it, terrible. I'm having great.
Speaker 2: It's terrible, it's horrible. I'm having a wonderful time.
Speaker 5: Perfect, excellent, perfect, exactly where we watch.
Speaker 2: I can control the screen. Yes, everything is fine. This
Speaker 2: is the cannon ending. Yeah, yes, all right, Well with that, by.
Speaker 8: My friends, you have reached the most dangerous part of
Speaker 8: our journey, the Gray Council. Here we speak of things
Speaker 8: that must not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers. If you
Speaker 8: are not ready turned back now that if.
Speaker 2: You dare to proceed, I promise you it will be.
Speaker 4: Manificent, mister Garibaldi.
Speaker 1: So I know because people who are listening to this
Speaker 1: and it's listen to the Gray Council now.
Speaker 6: To some of her great Council stuff, go away exactly.
Speaker 1: I want to hear and know the question that I
Speaker 1: asked Jen, which was and I want to know your justification.
Speaker 6: For your answer, because I uh asked and then you
Speaker 6: asked me the second thing you explained why you asked me.
Speaker 6: But okay, so start with what you asked, and then.
Speaker 1: Why, yes, could we tell should we tell them about
Speaker 1: the original plan for Delenne now, which was to have
Speaker 1: her transition from male to female? And then I said,
Speaker 1: the reason I didn't want to tell them is because
Speaker 1: of the reason that immediately happened when Delenne came out
Speaker 1: and was hot, was that she would predict that Delenne
Speaker 1: and Sheridan were supposed to be together if she knew
Speaker 1: that they transitioned. She almost predicted it, but she was
Speaker 1: so into the Jeff thing, but I think if we
Speaker 1: told her the transition plan, it would have made her
Speaker 1: more on high alert for yes, Jeff shared or Sheridan.
Speaker 6: De Lenne yes. And here's I had two reasons for
Speaker 6: saying no, let's not tell them yet. I love it
Speaker 6: like he literally read word for what we said, because
Speaker 6: I said no, let's wait. Two reasons for waiting. The
Speaker 6: first is a shallow reason. The second is a deep reason.
Speaker 6: The first reason for waiting was just that, in part
Speaker 6: because there was so much in this and I wanted
Speaker 6: to be able to like really stay focused on on
Speaker 6: both both the like Talia getting you know, being finding
Speaker 6: out she's a sleeper agent, but also the Talia Evanava
Speaker 6: of it all. And I was like, let's just stay
Speaker 6: on that and keep that focus in their relationship. I mean,
Speaker 6: I'm the one who brought up like, let's not forget
Speaker 6: to talk about Sheridan delen But the second reason is
Speaker 6: that when the Sheridan de Lenz stuff was happening, they
Speaker 6: still kept saying, but what about Saint Claire? What about
Speaker 6: are is she married? And I'm not ready to say no,
Speaker 6: that doesn't actually, nothing ever ever comes to that and
Speaker 6: then and so I was like, I'm not going ready
Speaker 6: to say that because they keep bringing it up. And
Speaker 6: they even brought it up when they asked what we
Speaker 6: were talking about, did.
Speaker 5: Right? They're so right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm wonder, like we want to bring it
Speaker 1: up then until Jeff is like said back in time.
Speaker 6: Well, I wonder. And then there's because there's also like
Speaker 6: when when his wife shows up, and so I yeah,
Speaker 6: but that's yeah, that's true, I know, which is not
Speaker 6: for a while. But so I'm kind of like, when
Speaker 6: do we because I really do I want to go back.
Speaker 6: But Gus just popped us off. He put a picture
Speaker 6: of Delenn in our group chat, didn't he? Or maybe
Speaker 6: it was in the maybe it was on the like
Speaker 6: a picture of de Len from the pilot when she
Speaker 6: looks like a man.
Speaker 5: Oh he put yeah a while ago there in the group.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it wasn't, but it was long ago. And so
Speaker 6: I was like, you know, I do I really want
Speaker 6: to tell them about that because I just it's so
Speaker 6: interesting to me and I think it's really fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because like I know people like that was another
Speaker 1: thing that I had to be on high alerts in
Speaker 1: the comments for because so many people mentioned it. I
Speaker 1: was leading it, and like I said, the reason I
Speaker 1: was deleting it was for the same reason that like
Speaker 1: it's yeah, when the second de Lene came out looking hot,
Speaker 1: that was, Oh, they made her hot so she can
Speaker 1: get together, and like, yeah, that the same reason. I'm
Speaker 1: just keeping that away from Ali. Yeah, well I've got
Speaker 1: just Ali. Although she's not been on her game for
Speaker 1: shipping this season, she's interesting.
Speaker 6: Okay, so I should I do want to say, And
Speaker 6: this isn't something we don't we've talked about, not in
Speaker 6: front of them, but in a way it's relevant because yeah,
Speaker 6: like me in the nineties as a progressive feminist, like
Speaker 6: was seeing it where it was I mean it was gear. Yeah,
Speaker 6: And like I said, I have been waiting like the
Speaker 6: whole scene when you and I talked to and I
Speaker 6: was like, what, they never actually kissed because I remembered
Speaker 6: them kissing because I saw this scene as as a kiss.
Speaker 6: And also I was like they must have had stuff
Speaker 6: before this that I didn't see because this is where
Speaker 6: I came in the show. So so like I just
Speaker 6: remembered that. I in my head, I saw them kiss
Speaker 6: like I remember a kiss. And so when we talked
Speaker 6: about it, and I was like, they didn't actually ever kiss.
Speaker 6: That's hilarious. But again, like as a progressive woman in
Speaker 6: the nineties, a progressive feminist in the nineties, like I
Speaker 6: heard it and saw it where it was implied and
Speaker 6: I heard it and saw it like knowing it was
Speaker 6: real in a way that they have every reason to
Speaker 6: be like I don't want to project that on the
Speaker 6: nineties or assume like you know, and also protect like
Speaker 6: I do. Think there's a protection, yeah, like they don't
Speaker 6: want to be disappointed that that's not actually what it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I have that protection more now. I didn't
Speaker 1: have it in the nineties, where in the nineties was
Speaker 1: like everything I'm looking looking for gay everywhere and putting
Speaker 1: it in, inserting it, whereas now I'm like, if you
Speaker 1: don't tell me their relationship, I don't want it. I
Speaker 1: don't want to have to read between the lines for it,
Speaker 1: like just just fucking make them gay or like that. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: That's where I'm at at this point in my life.
Speaker 1: It was so obvious to me at the time. Like
Speaker 1: he does say in the Lookers Guide that they didn't
Speaker 1: film a kiss. Yeah, it looks like they did. And
Speaker 1: I know, obviously because he had to answer that question,
Speaker 1: I'm not the only one who was like, that's a
Speaker 1: weird cut, Like it really looks like you filmed the kiss.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And he says it was just a weird bumpy
Speaker 6: at it, and I'm like, well, yeah, I mean that's
Speaker 6: not that's not uncommon, especially on a shot like that,
Speaker 6: when you're going to be going, like so this show
Speaker 6: was probably shot. It's called single camera, but you always
Speaker 6: run a B camera on a show like this, So
Speaker 6: you have two cameras running simultaneously. The second one is
Speaker 6: just to maybe pick up second angles, but in general
Speaker 6: you pick up the other angles on a new take.
Speaker 6: So you have your main camera set like watching from
Speaker 6: behind Talia, and then you know, you come over here
Speaker 6: for this shot. Over here, you might have a B
Speaker 6: camera going that's going to just get something in case
Speaker 6: you need another angle. But you're really counting on those
Speaker 6: A cameras to be your shots, and it is very hard,
Speaker 6: especially in an intimate scene like that, to get it
Speaker 6: exactly right, to match it perfectly. And when somebody is
Speaker 6: actually in for a case, it's a lot easier to
Speaker 6: fake it because you're just their faces are together and
Speaker 6: they're obscured and it's easier to fake it. Yeah, but
Speaker 6: so I can see that they didn't actually shoot it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see that they didn't, but it's it's like,
Speaker 1: I know why I thought they did, and obviously I
Speaker 1: am not the only person because it does like it's
Speaker 1: a jumpy cut that looks like they cut.
Speaker 6: And we all would have expected the network to say
Speaker 6: no fucking way.
Speaker 5: Yes exactly exactly.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other thing though, that we have to talk about,
Speaker 1: and it's sad.
Speaker 5: Is that no, she doesn't come back, like I know,
Speaker 5: and I said it.
Speaker 6: I said it in a way that sounds like I
Speaker 6: like did a straight up out lie to them, which
Speaker 6: I wasn't trying to do because I was trying to
Speaker 6: say I don't know. I heard myself say it, and
Speaker 6: then I was like, well, I can't fucking backtrack that
Speaker 6: because now then there'll be a dead giveaway that she's
Speaker 6: not coming back, right right, because I said whatever it
Speaker 6: was that I said, I was like, yeah, she'll be
Speaker 6: able to come back or something, or like she's like,
Speaker 6: you know, because she's still gonna be yeah, but she doesn't.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: Reading the Looker's Guide was very interesting because I like
Speaker 1: just the depth of it. At a certain point, something
Speaker 1: happens in the Lurkers Guide, because prior to that he
Speaker 1: was talking about it like she could come back, and
Speaker 1: bringing up, like they put it explicitly in this episode
Speaker 1: that scene from the previous one where Gosh that because
Speaker 1: I put it in here, I forgot that that was
Speaker 1: a flashback in this episode. I always saw that head
Speaker 1: canon that, but no, it's very plain, like this is
Speaker 1: meant to be here to show you that Kosh can
Speaker 1: bring her back, Like that's what that was, because otherwise,
Speaker 1: why show us that scene, Like it doesn't make any
Speaker 1: sense to show it otherwise. And he talks about that
Speaker 1: a lot in the Lurkers Guide, and then at some
Speaker 1: point and I do I guess, I just yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I want to address it, but I could
Speaker 1: not find the original interview where Andrea Thompson said something.
Speaker 5: I tried.
Speaker 1: I could find like people referencing it, but I can't
Speaker 1: actually find the real interview. But she said something about
Speaker 1: choosing to leave the show because she was.
Speaker 5: Not getting enough enough screen time. She wanted enough screen time.
Speaker 1: I then he felt the need to address that in
Speaker 1: The Lurkers Guy, and it became much clearer after that
Speaker 1: point in The Lurkers Guy that she wasn't coming back.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I don't know. I want to address
Speaker 1: it in a certain way just because I know people
Speaker 1: have talked about that as if like she betrayed us
Speaker 1: or she was I don't know. I've heard people refer
Speaker 1: to it in very dismissive ways, and I just we
Speaker 1: don't know why.
Speaker 5: Like actors, I think that's the thing that people.
Speaker 1: Forget, and I've become more aware of it, especially paying
Speaker 1: attention to the whale of time as I did, but
Speaker 1: through the casting and whatnot. It's their job. It's literally
Speaker 1: their job, and if you choose to be an actor actors,
Speaker 1: most people for we have this thing in our mind
Speaker 1: that all actors are like Julia Roberts. They're all rich
Speaker 1: and they're not like most actors are working class and
Speaker 1: they're doing this. We see this, but like Gus and
Speaker 1: Ali and you, like, you do extra work in order
Speaker 1: to support this job that you really want to do.
Speaker 5: If you have a job that you really want to do.
Speaker 1: And you get there and they're not letting you do
Speaker 1: the job, You're going to find a job that lets
Speaker 1: you do the job. That you are literally sacrificing your
Speaker 1: life in order.
Speaker 6: To Tamlin Tomita. And if she had a burgeoning film career,
Speaker 6: if she had other stuff where she was going to
Speaker 6: get to be front center, of course you're going to
Speaker 6: take that because that's going to lead to something else,
Speaker 6: even bigger. Exactly, it's the same as Denise Crosby, Like
Speaker 6: she was this really cool, badass, short haired character kicking
Speaker 6: ass being head of security on TG, and then she
Speaker 6: stopped getting used. She just stopt getting used. They kept
Speaker 6: giving Riker opportunities to be super smarmy, and she just
Speaker 6: stood in the background and said yes, Captain, and like
Speaker 6: didn't have anything to do. And it was like, that's
Speaker 6: super unfulfilling as an actor. And you can be like, well,
Speaker 6: I fucking take your page. I can go home. It's like,
Speaker 6: but no, because I'm not even going to be able
Speaker 6: to use this show as a stepping stone exactly because
Speaker 6: I don't have I mean so few episodes.
Speaker 5: That's what it's like.
Speaker 1: I feel bad for the actor playing Warren Keffer, Like
Speaker 1: he's top a show credit, probably getting paid well, but
Speaker 1: he can't use this on his resume and he's locked
Speaker 1: into a show for a year and like he can't
Speaker 1: be like, oh, people will recognize me from this show
Speaker 1: and it's going to help me get other work.
Speaker 5: No, they're not. No, and they're not going to recognize you.
Speaker 6: I actually went back. I did this placeis and things
Speaker 6: we're talking about last week. I went back in reference
Speaker 6: because SICH has some like the contracts changed dramatically since
Speaker 6: the nineties. So here's the thing, Like when you say
Speaker 6: they're not making enough money to make a living, this
Speaker 6: is true. But they were and JMS does says this something.
Speaker 6: She had a fifteen She got paid for thirteen episodes.
Speaker 6: So like you can bring in a series regular, they
Speaker 6: have to be in at that time, they had to
Speaker 6: be in at least half the season. So you had
Speaker 6: to guarantee them thirteen episodes. If they weren't physically in them,
Speaker 6: you had to pay them. So they were getting paid.
Speaker 6: And at this time, this was not a network show,
Speaker 6: so a network show in the in the mid nineties,
Speaker 6: And I don't have the exact numbers for the mid nineties,
Speaker 6: but I am guessing that for if you were doing
Speaker 6: a primetime show on either ABC, NBC, or CBS, you
Speaker 6: were getting paid in ninety four I'm going to guess
Speaker 6: eighteen thousand dollars an episode as a series regular if
Speaker 6: you were doing a cable show, which this was considered
Speaker 6: network but it was broadcasts, but it wasn't it wasn't
Speaker 6: primetime broadcast, it was a secondary channel. They might have
Speaker 6: been making five thousand dollars an episode. I'm not even sure.
Speaker 6: It might have been a little bit more then. It
Speaker 6: is less now because of streaming and everything else, like,
Speaker 6: and there's so few things on. I mean, primetime is
Speaker 6: still big, but like there's just a few primetime shows,
Speaker 6: and so like I think, I think the oh well no, no, no,
Speaker 6: let's go back to ninety four The Friends. No, it
Speaker 6: would have been closer to twenty five because The Friends, right,
Speaker 6: I got twenty five thousand first season per episode, so
Speaker 6: you know, but that's because it was prime time NBC.
Speaker 6: So that's not what she was making on this, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: and not what Warren Keffer is making on the show.
Speaker 6: Same thing with him, Like, you know, he could have
Speaker 6: very easily just been like, I need to be moving
Speaker 6: my career forward, and we keep saying, where's Talia, Where's Tallia?
Speaker 6: War's Talia? You know, she just hasn't been, and it's
Speaker 6: interesting because it's not the JMS didn't like her, and
Speaker 6: he obviously wrote her to be this really cool character.
Speaker 6: I think he was writing it in a way to say,
Speaker 6: I want to make sure nobody sees it yet so.
Speaker 5: Well that I can't have.
Speaker 6: Right and I can't have her in every episode or
Speaker 6: people will know that she's going to be the sleeper.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And also I think like he had plans for her
Speaker 1: later on where she would step forward and be prominent.
Speaker 5: Sorry, somebody's drilling above me. I don't know if you
Speaker 5: can hear it.
Speaker 1: I can yehning go away recording a podcast. But yeah, that,
Speaker 1: like is that thing that Ali says all the time.
Speaker 1: Two things can be true. I think that he is
Speaker 1: writing a story and he knows where it goes, and
Speaker 1: he has a fully the right tell the story that
Speaker 1: he wants to tell and to tell it the way
Speaker 1: he wants to tell it, and it's that is his
Speaker 1: that is well within his purview. But she as an
Speaker 1: actor who has a job, and this is her job
Speaker 1: that she's using to make a living, and she wants
Speaker 1: and like I said, the thing that people forget people
Speaker 1: who are choosing to be an actors, they're they're not
Speaker 1: getting most of them are getting rich off of it.
Speaker 1: So they are choosing to do a job that is
Speaker 1: actually going to get make them less money usually, and
Speaker 1: if it's not fulfilling, it's perfectly within her right to
Speaker 1: be like, I'm sorry, I'm going to go find a
Speaker 1: job that actually feels like like it's giving me what
Speaker 1: I want to do from this job. And I don't
Speaker 1: begrudge either of them for what happened. And I I
Speaker 1: just I've heard people talk about it in a really
Speaker 1: disrespectful and dismissive way, and I I would these are people.
Speaker 5: And this is their job, and I want them both
Speaker 5: to be.
Speaker 6: Respected and and and JMS is making it up and
Speaker 6: so therefore he can adjust as needed. But also, you know,
Speaker 6: this is coming out of his head. This isn't real life.
Speaker 6: This is what actually happened, you know, I mean, like,
Speaker 6: it's not a real world thing that happened that we're.
Speaker 5: Exactly exactly, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that's hard for him, like,
Speaker 1: you know, because he is the au tour of this show,
Speaker 1: but I think it's kind of hard for him to
Speaker 1: be like to understand that it might not be fulfilling
Speaker 1: for an actor because he's like, no, no, no, in
Speaker 1: season four, you're.
Speaker 5: Going to have an amazing arc.
Speaker 2: A.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah. And because he's not, he's also not telling them that,
Speaker 5: like he's not telling them what.
Speaker 6: Also, like this was this was also a time when
Speaker 6: it's strangely, I mean, we didn't have as much replacing.
Speaker 6: I mean you well, I was gonna say there was
Speaker 6: a big gap in that. Okay, didn't they replace Darren
Speaker 6: in Bewitched or was it?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't remember what I think it was.
Speaker 6: Or was it or was it the guy and I
Speaker 6: dream of Jeanie? No, because that was JR. That was
Speaker 6: Larry Hagman. I think consistently it was Larry Hagman. But yeah,
Speaker 6: I think they replaced Darren and Bewitched. Anyway, there was
Speaker 6: definitely a time when they were like new actor, same human,
Speaker 6: same role, especially because it was a couple and they
Speaker 6: were married and like whatever you had to. But this
Speaker 6: was a time when you didn't have the Game of
Speaker 6: Thrones Dario of like you know, now new new Dario
Speaker 6: this week, and I'm like, he didn't even look like him.
Speaker 6: I'm so confused.
Speaker 1: They did it on soap operas all the time.
Speaker 6: Though that's true soaps, I mean constant soap, but you know,
Speaker 6: sometimes they'd have a horrible car accident and a reconstruct
Speaker 6: with surgery, and sometimes there's this new person. Yeah, soaps,
Speaker 6: you had to. But he was not. But JMS did
Speaker 6: not do that. He wasn't like, we'll just recast somebody
Speaker 6: as as Talia. He was like.
Speaker 1: The only person he did that with was Nata and
Speaker 1: that was because of you make up. And then he
Speaker 1: was just but then he was also like, I guess
Speaker 1: it doesn't work because everybody noticed.
Speaker 5: And then he just didn't ever in the show. I
Speaker 5: think he thought that nobody would notice, and everybody was like,
Speaker 5: uh huh, I know that you're talking about.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, yeah, I just wanted to address
Speaker 1: that just because anyway, but she does not come back,
Speaker 1: and I this is one of the things if we
Speaker 1: talk about, like people you know, constantly talk about a
Speaker 1: possible reboot and whatever. And I don't know I've ever
Speaker 1: said this to you. I know I've said it in
Speaker 1: my discord server, but my my dream reboot would not
Speaker 1: involve these characters. It would be the same story, but
Speaker 1: different characters. I don't know how to say that properly,
Speaker 1: but because I'm a character person and he's like me
Speaker 1: referlon is Dylan, and I don't want to see anybody
Speaker 1: else play the lite and I don't want to see
Speaker 1: anybody else like so man make other characters. But you
Speaker 1: can tell the same story with the single exception of
Speaker 1: Talio tears, because I feel like her story isn't finished. Yes,
Speaker 1: like her coming back. It doesn't have to be Talian Winters,
Speaker 1: I suppose, But the idea, it's the it's the Battlestar
Speaker 1: Galactica of it, of somebody being a trader and not
Speaker 1: knowing and then having to deal with that. That is
Speaker 1: such a rich and deep story that doesn't get told.
Speaker 1: And I yeah, and I mean obviously the girl kissing.
Speaker 1: I lesbian nerdy. Obviously I want more girl kissing in
Speaker 1: the show in a reboot, and then my dream reboot
Speaker 1: that happens one day possibly whatever.
Speaker 5: I want the girl kissing.
Speaker 1: But weirdly enough, people always think that's gonna be my priority,
Speaker 1: and it usually is, like on the list, but it's
Speaker 1: usually that the top of the list.
Speaker 5: The top of the list is I want to see
Speaker 5: Talia explore that story.
Speaker 6: Well, it's interesting because I have. I'm a little worried
Speaker 6: because Sally and Gus. Gus has seen all of BSG
Speaker 6: and Ali has seen some of it. But I'm a
Speaker 6: little bit worried because I know Ali doesn't know who
Speaker 6: all the Cylons are, right right, I'm a little worried
Speaker 6: that Gus, that they're going to expect. I mean, this
Speaker 6: is what's funny. When you were asking me, should we
Speaker 6: tell them? I wondered if you were going to say,
Speaker 6: she would tell them she doesn't come back, and it's
Speaker 6: too early to do that, but there is a little
Speaker 6: bit of that. I think it's done so well in
Speaker 6: BSG because when those sleeper agents wake up and they
Speaker 6: know that they're a Sleeper agent, they're devastated because they
Speaker 6: have not lost their real personality who hated Cylons and
Speaker 6: so now they're like, I hate who I am. And
Speaker 6: it's a really beautiful character story to watch. But Talia,
Speaker 6: it's interesting, and I wonder if his decision, knowing she
Speaker 6: was leaving the show to have it switch off completely,
Speaker 6: he came out of that, because if he had, it
Speaker 6: seems like JMS would be like, once she knows that
Speaker 6: she's a sleeper, how does she wrestle with that and
Speaker 6: his decision to have it be like a complete switch.
Speaker 6: I don't know, it might have been his decision from
Speaker 6: the very beginning. I just think that there's a lot
Speaker 6: of interesting story to tell if they if they retain both, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well, I because that would be It's deep to me.
Speaker 1: And I think the idea of bringing whatever it is
Speaker 1: that Cash gone on that Crystal would bring enough of
Speaker 1: a person out in my in my dream this is
Speaker 1: just me making shit up, but in my dream scenario,
Speaker 1: that would bring that in of her being like, oh
Speaker 1: I got used by cycles and right after like I'm
Speaker 1: starting to deconstruct that, right opinions.
Speaker 6: Aren't a waste of her, like her awakening last month,
Speaker 6: you know. And I'm like, but but she just came
Speaker 6: to see that they're being like give her a chance
Speaker 6: to live in that space, I know, and the double
Speaker 6: personality thing. Interestingly enough, so you know, I've I have
Speaker 6: been up and down a little hot and cold and
Speaker 6: conflicted as Starfleet Academy. I don't think I've said that
Speaker 6: on the podcast I've talked I told you about it person,
Speaker 6: because I didn't. I think I'm always I'm always I
Speaker 6: did say that about I get that how I hated
Speaker 6: I get at the beginning. Obviously, I think it's like
Speaker 6: the most perfect show ever made. Now, so I realized
Speaker 6: that often I'm like, it takes me some time to
Speaker 6: warm up, and I'm always like wanting to give a
Speaker 6: show the benefit of the doubt and stick with it,
Speaker 6: like through something. And so I had some a little
Speaker 6: couple of rough starts with Start Starfleet Academy. Watched the
Speaker 6: second to last episode last night. Was really hoping I
Speaker 6: was going to get into the lottery to go see
Speaker 6: the entire cast there this week. I think it's supposed
Speaker 6: to be tomorrow night, but I did not make it
Speaker 6: in the lottery might have been tonight. I'm really sad
Speaker 6: I didn't get to go. But but uh, last night's episode,
Speaker 6: which was directed by Jonathan Fraakes, who came in and
Speaker 6: like directed a really fucking awesome episode, deals with some
Speaker 6: like double personality and a character who like has has
Speaker 6: a personality basically has a restart of her personality and
Speaker 6: but has both now and has memories from both. And
Speaker 6: I thought they handled it really really beautifully in that
Speaker 6: particular episode. And then we'll see there's one more, so
Speaker 6: we'll see if tickets stress.
Speaker 5: I have not watched that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's not as I'm not spoiling
Speaker 6: anything because I'm not telling you who or why or how.
Speaker 5: Okay, Okay, I have no idea.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's It's the one storyline in this show
Speaker 1: that feels well, there might be more, but that's the
Speaker 1: one that I think of when I think of it's
Speaker 1: the it's the itch. It's the one itch that isn't scratched.
Speaker 1: It's just like, yeah, this could have been, could have been.
Speaker 6: So yeah, I want to. I want to. I'm down.
Speaker 6: We'll we'll create the the reboot, whether it's a future reboot,
Speaker 6: and it's Talia come back to like wrestle with those
Speaker 6: demons because they've been able to like undo it. I
Speaker 6: don't know, I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, Bester could be bullshitting, but Bester does
Speaker 1: say that they killed her later, he could be bull shitting.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's a People get all up in arms
Speaker 1: when you talk about a reboot. But I just I
Speaker 1: think you can do it without these characters because I
Speaker 1: don't want to see them.
Speaker 5: I will.
Speaker 6: I agree. I mean, although I mean to say that
Speaker 6: that's I agree with you and I was not a
Speaker 6: huge huge I'm looking for him. I don't know where
Speaker 6: it is. I was not a huge Like I didn't
Speaker 6: watch the nineteen seventy the seventy eight Battlestar because I
Speaker 6: watched it. I knew it. I knew it well, I mean,
Speaker 6: I knew it, but it was like not Star Wars.
Speaker 6: To me. I was like so obsessed with stars, not
Speaker 6: Star Wars. And I think I may have told you,
Speaker 6: my my, my Millennium Falcon's right here, my my NAC
Speaker 6: gave me Millennium Falcon, but they gave me Battlestar Galactica
Speaker 6: figures to go with it. They pissed off. They didn't
Speaker 6: know any they didn't know any better, and I love
Speaker 6: them so much, and it.
Speaker 5: Is I would have been the same as a child.
Speaker 5: I would have been like, fucking right, what.
Speaker 6: It was like. My most one of my most treasured
Speaker 6: things that I own is my original Empire strikes Back
Speaker 6: Battlestar Millennium Falcon. And I love telling the story that
Speaker 6: I got Battlestar Galactica figures with it. I got yeah, anyway,
Speaker 6: Adama a Dama and the Little Red Guy. Anyway. That said,
Speaker 6: I loved the choice of rebooting it with Boomer as
Speaker 6: a girl, Starbuck as a woman, like you know, I
Speaker 6: mean like it's just like the really some really amazing
Speaker 6: choices that they did with the reboot that made.
Speaker 5: It like the original.
Speaker 6: But yeah, yeah, I mean you know, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 6: so anyway, and I'm a huge Haatch fan, so like
Speaker 6: bringing him back in the show but as a different
Speaker 6: character that was also really wonderful. So maybe they bring
Speaker 6: Andrea back as a different character.
Speaker 5: That could work. I still want that story told. I
Speaker 5: want the story.
Speaker 6: Oh, they they bring back both her and Claudia Christian
Speaker 6: and they actually kissed. But they're not those characters that.
Speaker 5: Could be other people too. Yes that's true.
Speaker 6: Who they are?
Speaker 5: Oh my god, Okay.
Speaker 1: I don't uh let's see. I had notes, but I
Speaker 1: think they were just all about other lesbians. Yeah no, no,
Speaker 1: like I had the d S nine Eric, Yes I didn't.
Speaker 5: I didn't put Buffy but Buffy is much later. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Oh I had one other note. Just that's some tiniest
Speaker 5: little note.
Speaker 1: But when Lida called this is we could have said
Speaker 1: this in front of them because it's not that important.
Speaker 1: But when Lida calls the len the len Is recording
Speaker 1: like or sending a message about meetings with the Loumati.
Speaker 1: The Lumati were the species that did the weird sex
Speaker 1: thing with a vamp.
Speaker 6: Anyway, I love it, love it, Yes, love it.
Speaker 5: I don't think she was setting.
Speaker 1: I think she was like, we will maybe revisit something
Speaker 1: about negotiating or something like that.
Speaker 5: It was we know that species, so love it. I
Speaker 5: think that's I think that's it. This has been a
Speaker 5: long one.
Speaker 6: Sorry, Yeah, we all had a lot of well.
Speaker 5: Did I felt bad steering them into us.
Speaker 1: It's like we just finished if I did loyalties and
Speaker 1: they still didn't cotton on to the fact that.
Speaker 6: They I think we've been I've been like since the
Speaker 6: very first episode. I've just been like, I mean the
Speaker 6: first episode with Talia and of and there is Clow
Speaker 6: and I was like, yeah, obvious, obvious.
Speaker 1: Well I'm going to put you all to anybody listening
Speaker 1: to this, to my friend body his YouTube channel, just
Speaker 1: some body's opinion or some bod I is how he
Speaker 1: spelled his name. He after he watched the after he
Speaker 1: watched that episode, sent me a DM that said, so
Speaker 1: Evanova and Blonde later are going to lesbian it up?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 5: I was like, what.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to spoil him, so I just said
Speaker 1: something to the effective, you know better than to ask
Speaker 1: me for spoilers, and he.
Speaker 5: Was like, oh my god, they are.
Speaker 9: But hilarious YouTube channel because he's doing reactions of the show,
Speaker 9: and yeah, check that out, but don't tell him, don't
Speaker 9: spoil him because he's he's still.
Speaker 5: On season right.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but yeah, I think we can end this
Speaker 1: chaotic I'm there and uh, yeah, So if you like
Speaker 1: this reaction, you can always or this podcast, I should say,
Speaker 1: you can check out the reaction. It's up on YouTube,
Speaker 1: and if you want to see the full unedited version
Speaker 1: of the reaction, you can always check out our patreon.
Speaker 5: And on Patreon you get early access.
Speaker 1: You get occasionally like a little behind the scene stuff
Speaker 1: because we sometimes record before we record.
Speaker 5: Does that make sense? I don't know if that makes
Speaker 5: sense sense to me. See what I mean?
Speaker 1: You join our Patreon and there's also a secret, super
Speaker 1: secret channel in discord that you can join, and we
Speaker 1: have super secret conversations and so don't tell anybody about it.
Speaker 1: And then also what else I can't remember early access
Speaker 1: on at free versions of this podcast do it all?
Speaker 6: Uh?
Speaker 5: And uh, yeah, like and subscribe, rate and review and
Speaker 5: babble on