1
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,640
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of the Horn one Podcast.

2
00:00:44,679 --> 00:00:45,320
I'm your host.

3
00:00:45,359 --> 00:00:48,240
Speaker 2: As always, make sure to follow the show on social

4
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,799
media at the one on one podcast on pretty much

5
00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:55,880
all social media platforms, www dot t j, o JP

6
00:00:56,039 --> 00:00:58,759
dot com, Patreon dot com, slash, the one one Podcast

7
00:00:58,799 --> 00:01:01,159
all that good stuff links down at the description. And

8
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,799
today we have a returning guest after almost two years, Ronnie.

9
00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:06,599
It's been way too long, dude. We got to do

10
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,760
this more often and hopefully we will. Welcome back to

11
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:10,359
the show, Ronnie.

12
00:01:10,359 --> 00:01:10,760
Speaker 1: How you doing.

13
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,439
Speaker 3: I'm good man, Thanks for having me back.

14
00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and can you give us a brief overview of

15
00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,480
who you are? You're mostly well. I came across your

16
00:01:21,519 --> 00:01:25,760
work because you worked with mainly p Hall for a

17
00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,760
little while and you did you did lectures there and everything.

18
00:01:29,879 --> 00:01:32,560
Can you for those that haven't heard of you before?

19
00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:35,400
First of all, tell them where they can find your book,

20
00:01:36,359 --> 00:01:39,079
your books, because you got several books and your wife

21
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,359
as well. American metaphysical religion and it's about this amalgamation

22
00:01:43,519 --> 00:01:48,159
of this emerging uh new religion, I guess you could

23
00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,239
call it something or other.

24
00:01:50,359 --> 00:01:52,959
Speaker 1: Where can they find that? And also tell us a

25
00:01:52,959 --> 00:01:53,879
little bit about yourself.

26
00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 3: That's a lot of questions that I don't like answering

27
00:01:58,319 --> 00:02:02,040
for the most part. So the book American Metaphysical Religion.

28
00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,519
It could be about a religion that's slowly forming in America,

29
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,719
but it's also about the oldest tradition in the West

30
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,240
and also influences from the East that migrated here and

31
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,479
became hybrids and have multiplied into all sorts of amazing

32
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,599
new modifications of what they originally were, while keeping for

33
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,879
the most part the original teachings intact. That book is

34
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,039
published by Inner Traditions. You can get it pretty much anywhere.

35
00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,639
Any bookstore can order it, or it can be ordered

36
00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,680
from Inner Traditions or any online book merchant. I like

37
00:02:39,759 --> 00:02:44,159
people to support small bookstores if they can, so if

38
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,280
you're patient, you can ask them to order it for

39
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,000
if they don't have it, some of them have it.

40
00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,840
There's also a book co authored with my wife, Tamra

41
00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,280
Lucid that's called The Magic of the Orphic Hymns, and

42
00:02:54,319 --> 00:02:56,960
that's about the history of the hymns, and it's a

43
00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,520
new kind of loose translation, uptively simple. We did a

44
00:03:01,599 --> 00:03:06,199
whole lot of research on it, intended for reading pleasure,

45
00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,159
but also for practice for those who want to experience

46
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,080
going there, because the orphic Hams were described by Agrippa

47
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,439
as being none more powerful when it came to magic,

48
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,360
and Facino, one of the founders of the Renaissance, described

49
00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,439
the orphic Hams as the most powerful magic. They are

50
00:03:24,439 --> 00:03:29,719
pretty amazing to experiment with. And then there's Tamra's book,

51
00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:35,759
which is Making the Ordinary Extraordinary about the seven years

52
00:03:35,759 --> 00:03:39,439
that we spent with Manley Hall working with him when

53
00:03:39,439 --> 00:03:44,240
I was his research assistant, And there's a lot of

54
00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:47,879
humor in it, but also a lot of insight into

55
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:53,759
the quiet and wholesome but very inspiring life at that

56
00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:56,120
time that Manley Hall was living near the end of

57
00:03:56,159 --> 00:04:01,120
his life. And let's see, there's two more books coming out.

58
00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:04,840
There's one coming out I think in fall, called The

59
00:04:04,919 --> 00:04:10,240
Unobstructed Way, about the most amazing exploration of the after

60
00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,159
death state that I've ever encountered in all my research

61
00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,959
stored Edward White and his wife Betty and who lived

62
00:04:17,959 --> 00:04:21,079
in amazing lives and in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties,

63
00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:24,959
wrote these books that were worldwide best sellers that were

64
00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,079
very different from any other spiritualist books. These had a

65
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,160
real depth to the philosophy of what they were trying

66
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,680
to get across. And it wasn't about like was there

67
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,160
in Atlantis or who was I in a past life?

68
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,160
This was about what am I really? What's the meaning

69
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,240
of life? You know? What does it mean to die?

70
00:04:43,399 --> 00:04:47,000
What does it mean to live? And then there's another

71
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:51,759
book about the Rosicrucians called The Rosicrucian Counterculture that will

72
00:04:51,759 --> 00:04:55,720
be published by Inner Traditions that is coming out around

73
00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,360
Christmas of this year. So all those should be available

74
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,839
in all sorts of different places if anyone's interested. It's

75
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,519
for me aside from working with Manley Hall when I

76
00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:13,560
was a kid, incredible circumstance, his generosity and I mean

77
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,199
changed my life, changed me from a criminal to a

78
00:05:16,199 --> 00:05:19,920
civilized human being, and it kind of launched me out

79
00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:22,319
into the world on a different path than I otherwise

80
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,879
would have followed. And since those days, I was in

81
00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:28,959
a band. I'm still in a band, but I think

82
00:05:28,959 --> 00:05:31,839
of it as was because we used to tour and we

83
00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,680
had our own label. We don't really do much of

84
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,920
that anymore. It's not very practical since the whole thing

85
00:05:36,959 --> 00:05:39,720
fell apart. Out there, there's like no all ages gloves

86
00:05:39,759 --> 00:05:43,519
and our whole scene died out, and our band started

87
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,839
out as one of the original riot girl bands in

88
00:05:46,879 --> 00:05:51,600
the mid nineties, and we morphed into kind of deconstructionist

89
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,079
exploration of rock and punk and just about every genre,

90
00:05:55,759 --> 00:05:59,680
sometimes mixing them all into one song. And all of

91
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,199
it was done with a highly rebellious streak and a

92
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,279
lot of hilarious criticism from Tamra, who's the singer and

93
00:06:07,319 --> 00:06:11,839
who's a credible lyricist. So we had a blast doing

94
00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,480
that for quite a while and met all kinds of

95
00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:20,240
amazing people. We've also done films. We've done documentary films

96
00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,399
about Let's See the Gets, an incredible band who's singer,

97
00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:28,839
miyaz Apota, was murdered in Seattle, and she was kind

98
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,560
of the reason the Seattle scene busted up because no

99
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,040
one knew who killed her, and everybody became suspicious of

100
00:06:34,079 --> 00:06:37,000
everybody else. It's kind of a tragic story, but it's

101
00:06:37,079 --> 00:06:41,519
beautiful because the band is incredible, she was an amazing woman,

102
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,920
and the band is still kind of this brotherhood wrapped

103
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,040
around her memory. So we did a doc about that

104
00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:55,199
with Joan Jet and Kathleen Hannah in it, remembering Mia,

105
00:06:55,879 --> 00:06:58,879
and then we did a doc with Edward James almost

106
00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:06,240
about Obama's really cruel policy for people who were born

107
00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:10,199
here in America but never got citizenship and who didn't

108
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,839
have relatives in Mexico who were just deported and wound

109
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,439
up living in the sewers of Zona Norte next to

110
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,160
the cartel zone, and it was just a horrific scene,

111
00:07:22,199 --> 00:07:25,000
and this very brave filmmaker, Charles Shaw went down there

112
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:30,319
and documented everything. And then several other docs went about

113
00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:34,079
Los Algianos, this incredible hip hop group that used to

114
00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:39,279
just rule the underground in Cuba. And then we also

115
00:07:40,879 --> 00:07:45,319
have been involved in for instance, Tamra was the associate

116
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,920
producer on an Emmy nominated documentary about Standing Rock about

117
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,360
the women who were the leaders, called End of the Line,

118
00:07:53,439 --> 00:07:57,519
The Women of Standing Rock. And we're working on some

119
00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,120
really interesting things right now too. We've done different sorts

120
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,079
of things in the world, but trying in everything that

121
00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,879
we do to bring truth to people, to bring inspiration

122
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,600
to people, whether we're trying to make you laugh, or

123
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,199
we're scaring you with history that that people are trying

124
00:08:17,199 --> 00:08:19,439
to cover up, or we're telling you about history like

125
00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,000
we'll be talking about today, which we wish more people

126
00:08:22,079 --> 00:08:23,120
knew about.

127
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, that's a lot of stuff there and music.

128
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,920
Speaker 2: And I was talking to somebody about the the murder

129
00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,159
of Dineback Daryl a couple of days ago, which you know,

130
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:37,519
pretty crazy too. This schizophrenic guy just jumped on stage

131
00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:42,200
and Dinebag was a crazy guitarist that the my first

132
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,000
ever guitar was a showdown.

133
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,399
Speaker 3: So oh yeah, yeah, well they were the they were

134
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,600
the man Pantera, I mean, and you know, unfortunately, it

135
00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,600
reminds me of the Rolling Stones in a way because

136
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,679
it was like there was the singers fans, and there

137
00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:01,159
was the guitar players fans, and unfortunately, you know, I mean,

138
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,039
Mick Jagger would never say somebody should go kill Keith,

139
00:09:04,159 --> 00:09:08,919
you know, but but in Pantera that was okay until

140
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,600
this guy took it literally, and you know, I didn't

141
00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:13,440
get it. So it's a tragic story.

142
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,919
Speaker 2: And that's the thing, right, people who take things literally

143
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,080
instead of intermining them interpreting them a different way, and

144
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,200
a lot of people when they say things. That's why

145
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,919
the whole conspiracy culture is kind of dangerous in a way,

146
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,240
because you feed into the delusions of certain people and

147
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:32,759
they do act on it, like I always tell people about,

148
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,039
you know, we're chatting about the homunculus. Well, there's an

149
00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,519
actual person right now probably doing those texts the grim

150
00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:43,200
War's word for word when it probably more than likely,

151
00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:47,279
probably ninety eight percent, meant something completely different, and you're

152
00:09:47,279 --> 00:09:50,600
not initiated, so you're not gonna know what it is.

153
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:51,279
Speaker 1: And so.

154
00:09:53,039 --> 00:09:56,960
Speaker 2: The I wanted to get into Rosicrucianism because it's one

155
00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,639
of those things that I've stumbled.

156
00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,240
Speaker 1: Across in my research.

157
00:10:02,039 --> 00:10:04,639
Speaker 2: John d is involved in there in your book even

158
00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,120
talk about da Vinci and a whole bunch of other

159
00:10:07,159 --> 00:10:09,879
people who might have been involved in it. I've also

160
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,039
heard Descartes might have also been a rosa Crucian. He

161
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,159
was hanging out with Christina Sweden and a whole bunch

162
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,159
of other alchemists and their whole alchemical circle. But I've

163
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,000
never really been able to pinpoint the pulse of what

164
00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:22,559
it is.

165
00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:26,399
Speaker 1: And speaking of being uninitiated.

166
00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,919
Speaker 2: A Max Heidel I actually read the book, wrote of

167
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,639
the Cosmoconception is that the one.

168
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that book.

169
00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:36,840
Speaker 1: It's a pretty short book, but that.

170
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,399
Speaker 2: Book actually changed a lot of the way I see things.

171
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 1: And one of the things that stood out to me

172
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:43,159
the most in that.

173
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,399
Speaker 2: Particular book was the part where he's like, hey, to

174
00:10:46,519 --> 00:10:52,240
the uninitiated, when they're reading these texts, they mean something

175
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,279
completely different to the initiate, who is able to see

176
00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,759
within of, you know, the writings, he's able to see

177
00:10:59,799 --> 00:11:02,279
the true meaning, the true essence of it. And that

178
00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:07,000
always stuck with me because again, the world to stage

179
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,159
and and I think a lot of things happen sometimes

180
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:11,879
for a reason.

181
00:11:12,759 --> 00:11:14,200
Speaker 1: People say, no, right.

182
00:11:14,279 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 2: That's that's how you get We always have the end product,

183
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,159
and the conspiracy is how do we get there?

184
00:11:20,799 --> 00:11:21,039
Speaker 1: Right?

185
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:28,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. And also conspiracies overlap with apophenia unfortunately a lot,

186
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:33,240
because they're both ways of coping with extreme stress. When

187
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,600
human beings are dealing with the kind of stress that's

188
00:11:36,639 --> 00:11:39,440
threatening to the very stability of our lives or our

189
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,480
continuing existence, or we feel that way, we will reach

190
00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,679
out to try to explain. You know, the brain just

191
00:11:45,799 --> 00:11:48,600
runs away and tries to find facts and dig deeper.

192
00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:50,879
And if you can just figure out what's going on,

193
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,000
you're going to feel better, even if you can't change anything,

194
00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,320
and not that that really that's not the most effective

195
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,879
way to try to protect oneself or to create chan

196
00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:06,480
change and an apophenia is a psychological term for a

197
00:12:06,519 --> 00:12:10,679
state of the psyche where you become so stressed out

198
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,559
that you start seeing messages everywhere. Often it's religious, of course,

199
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,240
and you can be anything. You can be Christian, you

200
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,559
can be a ceremonial magician, or you can be qan On.

201
00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:24,679
But you start to see these messages and everything gestures

202
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,399
that somebody makes, or a billboard you drive by, and

203
00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,960
they're either directed straight at you or there signs that

204
00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:37,120
your ideas about what's really going on are true. And

205
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,279
this is such a slippery slope because anybody who has

206
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,399
gone down the mystical path has had experiences the synchronicity

207
00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,240
as a meaning where you have I mean, it's not

208
00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:50,159
even the mystical path. I mean when we were in

209
00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:52,960
Riot Girl and I used to always watch this and

210
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,399
experience it myself, and the Riot girls would get together.

211
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,200
I was one of the few males that was in

212
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:04,879
this scene. They would make zines and posters and all

213
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:06,600
kinds of stuff that was going to be at the

214
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,120
next show or was going to be sent out in

215
00:13:08,159 --> 00:13:11,600
the mail. And when they would make zines, it was

216
00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:15,279
amazing how somebody would be make a zine on some

217
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,080
obscure topic and like all the things they needed would

218
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,279
just fall into their hands. They'd open up a magazine.

219
00:13:21,279 --> 00:13:23,000
We used to laugh about it. We'd say, you could,

220
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,480
you couldn't do anything without it relating to your zine.

221
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,120
You know. So those mystical experiences, that's not apophenia. That's

222
00:13:31,159 --> 00:13:35,679
something very real and happening, you know, meaningful coincidences, let's

223
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,080
call them. But it's also easy to slip into that

224
00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:44,440
extra level of it where fear and anger take us

225
00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:47,840
and then all of a sudden, you know, everything has

226
00:13:47,919 --> 00:13:51,639
double and triple meanings, and it hollows out the meaning

227
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,799
of words. And I think that Rosicrucian is one of

228
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,759
those words that has been used in so many different

229
00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:02,720
ways that it almost doesn't have meaning when, like you

230
00:14:02,759 --> 00:14:05,480
were saying, to try to pinpoint it and to say

231
00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:08,200
this is what a Rosicrucian is, which I'm going to

232
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,679
attempt to do right here, by the way, but that's

233
00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:16,600
really difficult to do because there's so many different kinds

234
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,440
of Rosicrucians out there. And let me give you some

235
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,679
examples of this, because it's mind blowing to me how

236
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,559
this thing stretched out into so many different places. So

237
00:14:25,799 --> 00:14:30,919
on the one hand, you've got Rosicrucians as they are

238
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,559
seen by the Roman Catholic Church, okay, who called them

239
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:41,960
the Devil's Jesuits. This was the devil bringing together crazy

240
00:14:42,039 --> 00:14:45,960
heretics in the name of science, which was really a

241
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,480
trick of the devil, and they were trying to do

242
00:14:49,519 --> 00:14:51,679
this to break the power of the Pope, which they

243
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:57,279
admitted to readily. And so they were simply evil, and

244
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,240
there were many people who were terrified of the Rosa Crucian.

245
00:15:01,759 --> 00:15:04,600
To give you a little background about them, I want

246
00:15:04,639 --> 00:15:07,200
to give context to everybody so they get a sense

247
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:08,480
of where this came from.

248
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,639
Speaker 1: And what year are we in, Ronnie when this is happening.

249
00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:16,039
Speaker 3: The actual well, even that can't be pinned down very well.

250
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,320
But we're looking at the early sixteen hundreds. But let

251
00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,080
me go back even further and you all can see

252
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,159
the timeline that we're talking about here, because one of

253
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,440
the most important moments I think is the life of

254
00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:35,120
Ficino mentioned earlier. Basically because this man in Florence, through

255
00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:40,000
Cosmo de Medici's interest in Plato and in the Hermetic writings,

256
00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:43,600
was given the ability a place to live and to

257
00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:48,320
support and all these priceless manuscripts to spend years and

258
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,360
years translating materials that had been unavailable to Europe for

259
00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:57,120
hundreds of years, and this revolutionized Europe slowly. This is

260
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,799
really the source of the Renaissance, because people da Vinci

261
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,519
and Michelangelo and Pico dela Morendola, and they were all

262
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,879
there while Ficino was strumming the hymns of Orpheus on

263
00:16:09,039 --> 00:16:15,840
his Lira de Braccio and being inspired by these pagan

264
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,039
ideas and this pagan philosophy that was so deep. They

265
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,080
didn't see any difference between that and Christianity. They felt

266
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,919
that they were all reaching out to the same God,

267
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,279
and that all the different Greek gods were really just

268
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:36,759
facets of God. And so he dies in fourteen ninety nine.

269
00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:42,639
Agrippa is operating by that time, and of course he

270
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,000
is the most plagiarized writer on Western esotericism and the

271
00:16:47,039 --> 00:16:51,679
history of magic. Ever, he's an odd writer because, as

272
00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:54,399
alifus Levi pointed out, he didn't really have a full

273
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,519
mastery of the material, and he is writing at a

274
00:16:58,559 --> 00:17:02,960
time when he needs to kind of fake that he's

275
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,720
not into it. So his most important book about magic

276
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,240
he's spending a lot of time saying this stuff is

277
00:17:09,279 --> 00:17:11,799
all fake. You know it's bad. You shouldn't waste your

278
00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:14,000
time on it. I regret the time I wasted. But here,

279
00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:16,920
let me tell you every single detail about it and

280
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,599
how to do it. So I mean, obviously he's sharing

281
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,480
it with you, but he's trying to do it in

282
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,920
a way so he can deny that he's really The

283
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:24,920
Church didn't buy that.

284
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,319
Speaker 2: By the way, obviously I forgot what he said to

285
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,640
Oh goodness, he said something to somebody. They were going

286
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,880
back and forth, and he said something about the bird

287
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,920
to keep the birds away or something or other. Trithemius

288
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,720
I think it was, or Trimetheus. I always get him

289
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,599
mixed up. They were going back and forth and they

290
00:17:42,599 --> 00:17:45,799
were talking about keeping the donkey at bay or something

291
00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:48,519
I talked about on an episode a while back. So

292
00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:54,480
that's interesting because I covered recently the pseudo Monarchia by

293
00:17:54,559 --> 00:18:00,480
John Veayer, who was a living student of Agrippa, and

294
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,000
that is what inspired the Goetia essentially, and it was

295
00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:09,400
supposed to be a troll like it was supposed to

296
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,160
be a fake. But but this is ryan because this

297
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,079
is one of the questions I want to ask you, so,

298
00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:17,319
magic and the occult right is a conspiracy in and

299
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,039
of itself. Are there higher powers, you know, that are

300
00:18:21,079 --> 00:18:24,319
running the universe, that are running reality. Can you control

301
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:25,160
set powers?

302
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:25,880
Speaker 1: Right?

303
00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:29,599
Speaker 2: Can you manipulate set energy and powers? I mean that's

304
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,839
a conspiracy. Like we're still trying to figure out if

305
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,000
it works or not. And here we have a Grippa

306
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,480
presenting it as a as a joke, as a larp.

307
00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:42,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it repeatedly is presented that way by some of

308
00:18:42,799 --> 00:18:47,839
the best minds. But I think that the hymns of Orpheus,

309
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,799
which Facino was so dedicated to, are a great way

310
00:18:50,839 --> 00:18:54,160
to understand this question. In the Hymns of Orpheus, and

311
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,240
he said, this is the most powerful magic. Agrippa agreed.

312
00:18:58,759 --> 00:19:03,480
When you're using the hymns of orph you are not saying, hey, Zeus,

313
00:19:04,079 --> 00:19:06,839
I want a new car aphrodit, he send me a

314
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:13,000
hot girlfriend. You are attuning to the gods, to these

315
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,000
different facets of creation, these these master spirits, whatever you

316
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,079
want to call them, and you were trying to bring

317
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,039
yourself up to the perspective that they have so that

318
00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,240
you can see the wisdom and the mercy and the

319
00:19:28,279 --> 00:19:32,079
harmony that is usually invisible for us in the world,

320
00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:37,359
and when you do that, magical things can happen. So,

321
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:41,519
for example, for Ficino, he knew he wanted to translate

322
00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:45,759
Plato and spend his life bringing back the pagan wisdom,

323
00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:48,160
but he was poor and he had no way to

324
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:53,160
do it, and in desperation, he did the hymn to

325
00:19:53,279 --> 00:19:57,960
the Cosmos just to ask the universe to help him

326
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,640
to achieve this goal. While he was doing the hymn,

327
00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:07,079
the letter from Cosmo de Medici arrived, telling him, I've

328
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,880
just given you a house to live in and support

329
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,400
because I want you to spend the rest of your

330
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,359
life translating this stuff. Well, you know this blue Facino's mind,

331
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,240
and he had many experiences like this, so you could

332
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,079
describe it this way. When you do the hymns of

333
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,759
Orpheus and you become attuned and magic happens, it's because

334
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,880
your will is now attuned to the will of the gods.

335
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,680
The gods wanted Ficino to spend his life translating everything,

336
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,359
and so they facilitated it. But the hymns will not work,

337
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,279
as far as I know, if used for purely selfish purposes,

338
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,000
especially if they're meant in some way that could be

339
00:20:46,039 --> 00:20:49,400
harmful to somebody else. So I have asked people who

340
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,200
use our book ritually to get back to me if

341
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,799
anything interesting happens. And I myself had interesting experiences when

342
00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:00,519
Tamer and I first did them. When we first did them,

343
00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:02,880
we were doing them as this kind of symbolic ritual

344
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,599
goodbye to Manley Hall and PRS. When he asked us

345
00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:11,480
to leave, and we felt that this was just sort of,

346
00:21:11,519 --> 00:21:13,839
you know, we couldn't really go back and tell our

347
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,319
friends at PRS. Manley Hall just asked us to leave

348
00:21:16,319 --> 00:21:18,440
because he says that you're all going to die soon

349
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,720
and we shouldn't be here when that happens, you know,

350
00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:25,279
So we kind of disappeared. So we did this ritual

351
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,759
in order to like kind of just say goodbye we

352
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,400
love you in some symbolic way. And the Hymns of

353
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,640
Orpheus was one of the last things that I worked

354
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,279
on with Manley Hall. When we did them, weird things happened,

355
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,640
like when we did the hymn to Athena in the

356
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,240
mid afternoon, i mean broad daylight in the Hollywood Flats,

357
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,400
a great horned owl showed up and sat on the

358
00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:53,400
nearest telephone pole sat there watching us while we performed

359
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,240
the Hymn to Athena, and right when we finished, jumped

360
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,480
down off the pole, swooped right at us and then

361
00:21:59,559 --> 00:22:00,759
up in over the ceiling.

362
00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:03,319
Speaker 1: Isn't she to Atheno?

363
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's her sacred animal. And we had several experiences

364
00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:11,640
like that, I mean quite a few that were subtle

365
00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,480
in a sense but also strange. Even for instance, we

366
00:22:15,519 --> 00:22:18,359
had when we did Zeus the Thunderer, there was a

367
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,640
cloudless sky, but there was some kind of thunder that occurred,

368
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,200
you know, didn't sound like it was machinery. We weren't

369
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,559
after any of that. It just kind of spontaneously happened

370
00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:31,160
as we did these things quietly singing them at the

371
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,880
window of this apartment in Hollywood. It was weird. And

372
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,119
people who have used them since have told us things like,

373
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,480
you know, one person who has always had a terrible

374
00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:45,519
time with travel, just somebody's luck always seemed to go

375
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,920
toward delays and detours and started to do the Hymn

376
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,880
to Hermes before they begin any journey and haven't had

377
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,279
any problems since. So there were these these kind of

378
00:22:56,519 --> 00:23:00,400
that's a personal use, but it's it's it's not a

379
00:23:00,599 --> 00:23:06,960
use for selfish reasons like desire or competition or these

380
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,039
more human kind of drives. This is just somebody who

381
00:23:10,079 --> 00:23:11,720
wanted to be able to do what they needed to

382
00:23:11,759 --> 00:23:15,519
do in a more peaceful and less chaotic way. So

383
00:23:16,279 --> 00:23:21,720
now these traditions go back to different forms of paganism.

384
00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:26,519
When you're doing magic like sex magic to get something right,

385
00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:31,920
you're going back to a tradition that it really resembles,

386
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,200
you know, what came to be called witchcraft or aspects

387
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,440
of shamanism, where you're trying to get the spirits or

388
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,920
the gods to do something for you. And there are

389
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,240
the beliefs, you know, drawing down the moon that the witches,

390
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,359
for instance of ancient Etrusca, the Etruscan witches used to

391
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,079
be able to, you know, literally draw down the moon.

392
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,480
You know, maybe they had a good sense of astronomy

393
00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:01,640
then you when the moon was going to be huge

394
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,839
in the sky or something. But they were known for

395
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,480
this gift and for being able to affect nature. Shamans

396
00:24:09,519 --> 00:24:13,240
of indigenous America were known to be able to produce

397
00:24:13,319 --> 00:24:19,880
ice in warm water on hot days. All these small

398
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,960
forms of magic, some of which got people burned for

399
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:30,759
allegedly hurting crops or hurting animals in farms and such

400
00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:36,000
through their magic. That's I think a very maybe even

401
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,680
dating back to Neolithic times, right like the hunter magic.

402
00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:48,079
And this is a very primal form of magic that

403
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,519
you have whole books of root magic, for example from

404
00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:55,720
the South in America, and how people would collect things

405
00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:59,000
like fingernails and bones of certain animals and they would

406
00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:01,000
mix them with certain earth herbs. And as you were

407
00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:03,519
saying earlier, it's hard to know what they're talking about.

408
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,799
They may call something, you know, the thumb of a corpse,

409
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,440
and that's actually a plant that was a name for

410
00:25:09,519 --> 00:25:13,119
an herb back in the day. And so the other

411
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,359
form of magic that's being harkened back to is theorgy,

412
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,559
which is the art of the gods. And this is

413
00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:23,799
something that was really developed strongly by the Neoplatanists, but

414
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,960
I believe goes all the way back to Egypt, ancient Egypt.

415
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:28,680
And it's.

416
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: Pardon I Amblicus and the Neoplaanists and Plainus and all

417
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:33,680
these guys.

418
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, so you know that you know, there

419
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,119
was this idea of being able to put life, put

420
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,640
a god into the statues. The Egyptians were practicing this,

421
00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:48,119
and the Neoplatanists also picked up on this, and Neoplatonists claimed,

422
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,400
I think they were right that the Egyptians were also

423
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:52,880
doing this as people. If they were trying to tune

424
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:58,279
themselves to be proper servants for the gods and so doing,

425
00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:02,079
they were lifting themselves and finding their true sells, because

426
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,160
according to them, we're all children of the gods. So

427
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,240
we're actually divine beings who have completely forgotten what we are,

428
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,880
and we're tumbling through creations and tumbling through life after life,

429
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,359
and eventually we remember what we are through all those experiences.

430
00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:25,720
So these are both forms of magic and my experiences,

431
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,880
I mean, I've interviewed a lot of people, I mean,

432
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,240
like Tamer and I did a lot of research on

433
00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:35,799
the goddess segment, because we were blown away by this

434
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,559
emergence of this ancient Egyptian lioness headed goddess who was

435
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,920
like the ultimate war goddess in a sense, but she

436
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,599
was like coming to life. I mean, she'd been completely

437
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,880
invisible for hundreds and hundreds of years and suddenly she's

438
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,119
everywhere and people are having experiences with these so called

439
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,880
living statues I've talked to many people who have spontaneous healings.

440
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,599
People walk in front of one of these statues, they've

441
00:27:01,599 --> 00:27:03,839
never seen segment, they don't know her name, they're in

442
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,839
a museum, and they fall to their knees and start

443
00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:13,119
weeping and just these strong reactions. And so something's going on.

444
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:19,319
And it's it's common amongst people who practice especially chaos magic,

445
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,759
but forms of magic, to believe that this is only

446
00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:26,519
in our own minds, that our own minds have this power.

447
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:28,839
Or youngians will tell you that this has to do

448
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,119
with the unconscious and that this is the contents of

449
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,400
the collective psyche of humanity, and that it can create

450
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,480
these these archetypes that we can have experiences of that

451
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:44,039
are like hallucinations. A lot of very complicated descriptions of

452
00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:47,119
what it might be, and I certainly wouldn't pretend to

453
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,839
know what it is. The difference maybe between myself and

454
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,960
most people is that I like to know all the

455
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,400
potential explanations while committing myself to none of them. But

456
00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:05,559
from my own own experience and experimentations and from my research,

457
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,920
there's definitely something powerful going on here and that I

458
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,160
think is at the core of a lot of what

459
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:17,359
the tradition is. Now you put that tradition into a

460
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:23,319
situation where it is struggling against the most extreme censorship

461
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:30,799
and persecution, things get pretty twisted. And you've got, you know,

462
00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:35,000
the winners writing history. People are writing about things that

463
00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:37,720
they believe in deeply, as if they don't believe in

464
00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:40,440
them because they can't say that they believe in them

465
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,160
or they'll be killed and so on. So I think

466
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,480
that that really muddies the waters when we look at

467
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,480
all this stuff. So having said that, now let's go back.

468
00:28:49,559 --> 00:28:52,720
So we've talked about the Tino. We mentioned Agrippa and

469
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,359
then Paracelsus who comes right after Agrippa, and both Agrippa

470
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,240
and Paracelsus are deeply influenced by the Grippa is three

471
00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:06,200
books right well, Ficino had three books on the meaning

472
00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:11,200
of the Book of Life. And Paracelsus was deeply influenced

473
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,440
by Ficino's ideas about medicine. When Paracelsus was in Italy,

474
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,720
and they took this stuff back into Germany and the

475
00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:24,480
ideas of the Neoplatonists and are already Agrippa is already

476
00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:28,480
constructing this story that we'll see over and over again

477
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:34,160
that we now call Western esotericism. He's already saying ancient Egypt,

478
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:38,039
and then the Greeks, and then the troubadours and alchemists,

479
00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:41,920
and then you know, just on up the history ladder,

480
00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:46,480
showing us how this has always existed, this tradition that

481
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:53,000
has very similar ideas, even from very different places. All

482
00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:56,359
these people Ficino a grip of Paracelsus, very influential but

483
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:02,519
kind of working in the world of Luther. Agrippa and

484
00:30:02,599 --> 00:30:06,799
Paracelsus are. Agrippa is a Catholic. Agrippa when he's asked

485
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:10,680
what is the secret of magic? And this is what

486
00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:12,720
really kind of lets the air out. I think of

487
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:16,400
the Fourth Book really being him. The fourth Book, which

488
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,640
has a lot of black magic and kind of more

489
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:25,279
magic for more human ends. Agrippa tells us that the

490
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:31,039
secret to magic is Christ. That's why the magician is

491
00:30:31,119 --> 00:30:35,240
safe when he's dealing with these issues. That's why Agrippa

492
00:30:35,279 --> 00:30:38,599
feels that he's a good Catholic. Agrippa is simply saying,

493
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,920
on a level, you know, the wisdom of the Neoplatonists

494
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:47,480
is nowhere near, you know, dismissable. It's every bit as

495
00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:51,759
good as Christian wisdom, it's the same God. And as

496
00:30:51,799 --> 00:30:54,119
long as I realize that that, you know, Christ is

497
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,000
my savior, I'm okay. That was not how the Church

498
00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:02,240
felt about it. They actually they tortured him a lot

499
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,519
of his life. They imprisoned him, and they banned the book.

500
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,160
But that book became a huge influence going down the

501
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,240
line for generations. Paracelsus huge influence on medicine would become

502
00:31:16,279 --> 00:31:19,160
a huge influence on Rosicrucians, and it was a huge

503
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,240
influence to this day on pharmacology. I mean, he had

504
00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:26,599
many inventions that are amazing, even named zinc for example.

505
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,359
And now let's go to John d because now we're

506
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:38,039
really getting close. So in the fifteen fifties onward up

507
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:42,440
into the early sixteen hundreds, the sixteen oughts, you've got

508
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,599
a lot of stuff going on in the heavens. You've

509
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:51,440
got comics and a supernova and just lots of excitement,

510
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:55,440
and the telescope is just beginning to become something that

511
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,400
people can use. The very primitive telescopes are in use,

512
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,640
and people are seeing these things and they're being interpreted.

513
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,559
The Catholics believe that these comics mean that the Protestants

514
00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:12,160
will all be converted soon and be defeated. The Protestants

515
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,039
think that they mean that the Roman Church will be

516
00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:18,400
destroyed and they would be the last pope. So they're

517
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:23,599
all kind of feeling war without saying so. But everybody's

518
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,359
real excited about this. You know, something big is about

519
00:32:26,359 --> 00:32:29,359
to happen. John d is in the middle of all this.

520
00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:33,880
This is Queen Elizabeth's you know, court wizard, her astrologer,

521
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,920
a spy for her, a diplomat, really one of the

522
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,720
premier occultists of that era. He's born in fifteen twenty seven,

523
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:49,480
so about thirty years after Facino dies, right after Agrippa dies,

524
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,039
and then he lives till about sixteen oh eight, sixteen

525
00:32:53,119 --> 00:32:56,559
oh nine, somewhere in there. And John Dee is at

526
00:32:56,559 --> 00:33:02,839
one point going around Europe trying to say, look, the

527
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:09,200
hermetic teachings, that's the real stuff. You know, astrology works,

528
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:15,720
alchemy works. We need to have a church and a

529
00:33:15,799 --> 00:33:21,720
government that understand that and that allow us to explore

530
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:28,400
science further. We need a universal reformation. Everything needs to

531
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,640
work better. Now. What is very interesting about this, given

532
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,519
the timing right now, is that with Ai and everything,

533
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:40,240
is that at that time, there was something similar to

534
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:46,960
AI in a way, which is that the ultimate surveillance

535
00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:50,400
state that's ever existed as far as I know, was

536
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,519
the Catholic Church, and is the Catholic Church, but the

537
00:33:53,559 --> 00:33:57,720
Catholic Church when it ran all of Europe, because in

538
00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:04,240
the confessional there could find out anything from anyone, and

539
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,319
all of that was ultimately reported back to the pope

540
00:34:07,319 --> 00:34:10,320
if it was important enough to be and you had

541
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,079
to do this or you were going to hell. It

542
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:17,480
was a very powerful motivation for people to avoid going

543
00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:21,519
to hell. And this was a stranglehold on European culture.

544
00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:24,079
I mean, the Church could do whatever it wanted, enriched itself,

545
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,119
took all the art that it could grab, and I

546
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:30,119
mean just you know, controlled everything. And even though there

547
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:34,400
were monks who were copying over Aristotle and ancient wisdom,

548
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,039
people couldn't read. You weren't even allowed to read the Bible.

549
00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:39,800
If you could read, unless you were a priest, you

550
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,079
weren't supposed to. I mean people were really kind of

551
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:48,679
made to be the peasants that people always kind of

552
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,239
hold in in disregard because those who were in power

553
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,360
didn't want them to be thinking or reading the Bible

554
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:04,119
or getting ideas they shouldn't have. And these people Ficcino, Agrippa, Paracelsus,

555
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:10,639
John de Giordano, Bruno, they are teaching that the wisdom

556
00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:12,960
is within you, that you don't need the pope, you

557
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,360
don't need priests, that is your heritage to realize who

558
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,119
and what you are, which is an eternal being filled

559
00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:25,760
with infinite creativity and wisdom. They're very inspiring ideas and

560
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,599
it's no wonder that these people wrote a bunch of

561
00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:32,800
books and changed Europe in many ways. Bruno one of

562
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,920
the single moments of the I mean, he's a genius.

563
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,000
You know, this guy is in Europe saying we should

564
00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:41,079
have we should be uniting everybody in these big colleges.

565
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,920
We're all working and science is great. And by the way,

566
00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:47,159
the sun doesn't go around us, We go around the sun.

567
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,960
And he gets burned at the stake for it, but

568
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:56,400
his books remain a powerful influence, being secretly passed around

569
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:03,079
amongst those with esoteric interests, university professors and others. And

570
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:05,760
having a grip of book, by the way, at one

571
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,960
time it could be a death sentence. There were people

572
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:13,239
killed for having a grip of book or for selling

573
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,199
in a grip of book to somebody. One guy was

574
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:21,320
drowned in the river. So now this all comes to

575
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,440
a head around a character by the name of Rudolph

576
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,599
the Second, the Holy Roman Emperor. He was born in

577
00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:31,159
fifteen fifty two. He dies in sixteen twelve. He's right

578
00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:35,280
there for all this. He's a fascinating character. I write

579
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,679
about him at length in the Rosicrucian Book, because he

580
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,239
is the Hermetic king in a way. This is somebody

581
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:48,079
who loved alchemy, loved the Hermetica, loved the occult. He

582
00:36:48,199 --> 00:36:52,000
kept alchemists. He had a huge hall of alchemists where

583
00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:54,320
they all had their own labs, and he would every

584
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,000
morning go see what the alchemists were up to, and

585
00:36:58,039 --> 00:37:01,519
he had his own alchemical lab. He was friends with

586
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:07,280
Rabbi Low and Prague, so he studied kabbala with him.

587
00:37:07,639 --> 00:37:11,320
He was somebody who loved art, so he also had

588
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,280
a hall of painters, and he would every morning go

589
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,480
visit the painters and give them suggestions about their paintings.

590
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,360
One of the interesting things about him was that he

591
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,599
was He had a very rivled sense of humor, Like

592
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,840
he had a back door that you would go into

593
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,599
his quarters through and that's where the ladies would be

594
00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:35,239
shown in. And he had a door knocker that was

595
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,039
it was this gold woman, naked woman with her mouth open,

596
00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:42,320
and the knocker was a penis that you would knock

597
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,440
the door with through her mouth. Right, So he strikes

598
00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:48,920
us as kind of modern, right, I mean, he's that's

599
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,880
who we'd want to be in a way if we

600
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,239
were around back then doing all those things. And he's

601
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,159
even more like us because he moves away from Vienna,

602
00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:02,840
not just because it's being threatened by the Turks, but

603
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,039
because he wants to get away from his mom, and

604
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:08,000
he wants to get away from the pope and the

605
00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:12,599
Pope's agents, and he can't stand the Catholic Church. Part

606
00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:14,800
of this is because when he was a kid, his

607
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,880
dad was an awesome holy Roman emperor actually, somebody who

608
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,360
really fought for peace, was great in culture, such a

609
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,280
charming person that when at times when they were at

610
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,760
the verge of war, he could meet with the enemy

611
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,760
and convince them that he was right because he just

612
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,840
had this wonderful kind of presence. He was also a

613
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,119
huge drinker, drank himself to death at a young age.

614
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: And have you ever been to Prague running.

615
00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 3: No, I haven't. I would love to, though, I yeah,

616
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,119
it would be so Rudolph moves well. First of all,

617
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:55,519
when Rudolph's a kid, his father has him sent to

618
00:38:55,679 --> 00:39:00,239
live with his uncle, the King of Spain. And this

619
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,840
is the King of Spain whose dad established the Spanish

620
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:12,639
Inquisition and who himself expanded the Inquisition. This guy was creepy.

621
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,199
He was one of those Catholics that had, like, you know,

622
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,679
finger bones of saints, and he would make his children

623
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,000
and he would make Rudolph kiss these old bones and stuff,

624
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:27,360
and he would make the kids sit in on the

625
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:33,360
inquisition and on executions ordered by the Inquisition, so they

626
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,440
would become tough and they would know how the stuff works.

627
00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:40,760
And it was brutal, you know, to live there. And

628
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,239
then some terrible things happened that I talk about, but

629
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,480
we don't have time to go into here. And so

630
00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:49,480
when he comes back to Vienna, he's all in black,

631
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:52,079
he likes to speak Spanish, he's kind of acts like

632
00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:55,280
a Spaniard. He's kind of arrogant, and the Austrians are like, well,

633
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,960
we don't like this guy. What happened? And his mother's

634
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:02,159
trying to get him married and he doesn't really want

635
00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:04,199
to marry. He wants to have a lot of different girls,

636
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,920
and so he moves to Prague, just picks up and

637
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,239
takes the capital of the whole empire to Prague, so

638
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,519
he's further away and he has more control, and he

639
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:17,079
turns Prague into a city that has freedom of religion.

640
00:40:18,519 --> 00:40:21,159
The Jews are free to have whatever they want to practice,

641
00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:23,480
the alchemists are free to do what they're doing. Everybody's

642
00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:25,719
free to do what they're doing. There's dialogue going on.

643
00:40:26,119 --> 00:40:33,199
It becomes this amazing hotbed of creativity. Really an interesting time,

644
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,679
and the result is that some of the people who

645
00:40:38,679 --> 00:40:42,599
will become known as Rosicrucians get really excited about him.

646
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,760
And John d is very excited about him, and John

647
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,480
Dee visits him and he says that the angels that

648
00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:53,000
he and Edward Kelly have been talking to through their

649
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:58,639
Enochian method, that they are telling him to tell this

650
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,519
holy Roman Emperor that he is possessed and that if

651
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,599
he must accept his fate to be the Hermetic Emperor

652
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,159
and to unite all Europe with a new religion based

653
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:12,719
on the truth, which is the Hermetic teachings and alchemy

654
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,880
and astrology and science, and that if he doesn't do this,

655
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,320
he'll have some terrible fate. Well, of course, as far

656
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,400
as I mean, Rudolph doesn't like either the Catholics or

657
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,559
the Protestants when they come up with ideas like that.

658
00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:28,440
I mean, he wants to be left alone so he

659
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,760
can walk around. He had a pet lion, by the way,

660
00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:33,840
you like, walk around his castle with his lion and

661
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,519
talk to the alchemists painter too.

662
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 2: There's records of him paying people off because the line

663
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,199
would attack people.

664
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:48,119
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly so, so he never sees John d again

665
00:41:48,199 --> 00:41:53,519
after that. And meanwhile, the Rosicrucians are these so called Rosicrucians,

666
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:58,159
he's mostly teachers, students, noble people who have the time

667
00:41:58,199 --> 00:41:59,880
and money to be concerned with these things and to

668
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:05,119
read Girdano Bruno and to have these rare books. And

669
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,159
they're thinking, there's still gotta be a way to do this.

670
00:42:07,559 --> 00:42:10,559
There's got a way to convince this man to stand

671
00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:13,119
up and unite Europe against the Turks and to give

672
00:42:13,199 --> 00:42:15,519
us all the freedom to open up the world and

673
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:20,519
have this universal reformation that we all want. And so

674
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:25,039
now the story really gets going because around sixteen fourteen

675
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,000
there's a publication of a book called The Fame of

676
00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:33,920
the Brotherhood RC Fama, and then one year later the Confessio,

677
00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:37,000
the Confession of the Brotherhood of RC, and then one

678
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:42,519
year after that the Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreuz. These

679
00:42:42,519 --> 00:42:47,840
are the three so called Rosicrucian manifestos, and they create

680
00:42:48,039 --> 00:42:54,400
a revolution. And what were these books? In most of

681
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,880
the story of esotericism, you'll find them referred to as

682
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:07,760
kind of holy books, sacred texts alchemical philosophy, and that

683
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,119
maybe the people who wrote them were masters, invisible masters,

684
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:17,960
ascended masters, a secret brotherhood of people who could live

685
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,000
for one hundred two hundred years and who had the

686
00:43:21,039 --> 00:43:23,719
secrets of alchemy, and that's how they extended their lives.

687
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,599
And they were all working for the benefit of humanity.

688
00:43:26,639 --> 00:43:29,639
And see where a lot of these kind of Blovatskian

689
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,679
manly hall ideas about secret brotherhoods working for our benefit

690
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,079
came from in part this period. But we've had in

691
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:41,079
the last twenty years or so amazing amounts of new

692
00:43:41,159 --> 00:43:44,599
research on this, as academia has finally opened up to

693
00:43:44,679 --> 00:43:49,000
studying this. And it's been a blast for me to

694
00:43:49,039 --> 00:43:51,760
talk to academics who are doing this, and to get

695
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,199
hold of these books and articles and these new materials

696
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:57,079
and see what really amounts to a whole new vision

697
00:43:57,599 --> 00:43:59,840
of what was going on there and what it looks like.

698
00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:05,159
Is basically, it's not all that different from you know,

699
00:44:05,599 --> 00:44:10,480
Kerouac and Ginsburg, or from any time that a small

700
00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:18,400
group of young, inspired, talented students with radical professors were

701
00:44:18,519 --> 00:44:22,880
moved to make these bold public statements that horrified the

702
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:27,679
status quo. And so in the case of the Fama,

703
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,159
the Confessio and the Chemical Wedding, these books when you

704
00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:34,639
look at them and we don't know who wrote them, Okay,

705
00:44:34,639 --> 00:44:36,480
it could have been one author. They don't seem to

706
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,280
be one author, could have been multiple authors, Different academics

707
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,360
and different traditions have different groups of people or individuals

708
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,039
that they say wrote them. We know that someone like

709
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:50,960
Johann Valentin Andrea was probably in the center of it

710
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,119
in some way. He's the only person who ever admitted

711
00:44:53,159 --> 00:44:56,840
to it. He said that he wrote The Chemical Wedding

712
00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:01,440
when he was eighteen years old in sixteen oh five.

713
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,280
So we get a glimpse here that eleven years before

714
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,440
its publication, this thing was written and was circulating in

715
00:45:09,519 --> 00:45:13,960
manuscript form, and some of this Rosicrucian material was certainly

716
00:45:14,039 --> 00:45:19,960
circulating amongst free Masonic circles and others interested in esotericism

717
00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:24,639
in those early sixteen oughts before these books came out,

718
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,440
and when they were just doing that, they were inspirational.

719
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,760
But when they became public published books, which was never

720
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,840
the intent of the authors, it created a massive reaction.

721
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:40,840
Part of it was the timing, because there was a

722
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,159
new technology and printing presses that made books available to

723
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,639
more people, and hundreds of pamphlets and books were written

724
00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:55,440
in reaction to these three manifestos. Many of them were saying, yes,

725
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,800
they're right, we got to get rid of the church.

726
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,440
Science is great, we need a universal repfs. I want

727
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,599
to be a Rosicrucian. Please, Rosicrusians, come find me. I'll

728
00:46:04,639 --> 00:46:07,119
be you know I have plenty to offer you. And

729
00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:09,159
then there were people who wrote books saying these are

730
00:46:09,199 --> 00:46:12,000
the devils Jesuits, this is all an evil plan of

731
00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:16,559
the Church. Look, their initials are RC Roman Catholic. Isn't

732
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:24,400
it obvious? And more panic happened than good responses. So,

733
00:46:24,519 --> 00:46:27,440
for example, in Paris, at one point some smart ass

734
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,800
put up posters saying the rosicrusions have come to town. We're

735
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,760
looking for new members. Don't contact us. We'll know that

736
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,719
you're right if you are well. This was taken as

737
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:42,000
my god Satan is running loose in the streets of Paris.

738
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,400
These are obviously some kind of you know, Satanists and

739
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,840
black wizards practicing magic, and they're invisible and they can

740
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,840
appear wherever they want, you know, And it really caused

741
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,760
a panic. I mean, wow, right, but that's apple Fenia

742
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,519
in a way too. That's people were looking for apocalyptic

743
00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:02,119
things and they react suddenly these ideas. Not to mention

744
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,320
the fact that they were saying in these manifestos, let's

745
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,199
kill the pope, you know, we really need to, and

746
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:10,280
they didn't say it in a nice way. They were

747
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,079
like one of them said, you know, let's use nails

748
00:47:13,199 --> 00:47:17,719
and scratch or stab him to death. Right, and probably

749
00:47:18,199 --> 00:47:21,119
a metaphor for the nails that were used on Christ.

750
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,119
I mean, it's you know, but maybe it's even an

751
00:47:24,119 --> 00:47:28,960
alchemical formula that's being referred to metaphorically. But it read

752
00:47:29,159 --> 00:47:31,559
like we're going to take over the Vatican and drag

753
00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:35,599
the pope out and hammer him up. And so they

754
00:47:35,599 --> 00:47:39,159
were talking about how important sciences and how we have

755
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,480
to open up the world to education. They talked about

756
00:47:42,519 --> 00:47:47,760
the Invisible College, and they were a huge inspiration to Comenius,

757
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,159
who we call the father of modern education, a guy

758
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,800
way ahead of his time. He saw this whole debacle happen.

759
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,519
But he stayed influenced by a lot of these ideas,

760
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:02,199
and he had the idea, for example, that we should

761
00:48:02,199 --> 00:48:06,639
have a College of Light where all the geniuses from

762
00:48:06,679 --> 00:48:09,199
all around the world should be brought together so they

763
00:48:09,199 --> 00:48:12,559
can work together for the benefit of humanity. Another one

764
00:48:12,599 --> 00:48:16,079
of his ideas was that every single human being should

765
00:48:16,119 --> 00:48:22,400
be taught to read and write, women, Aborigines, indigenous people, everybody.

766
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,440
I mean talk about a radical idea and as opposite

767
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,840
as the Catholic Church that you could get. The Church

768
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:29,760
is saying, no, you shouldn't even read the Bible because

769
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,360
you're a moron and you won't understand it. You know,

770
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,679
you need a priest to explain these things to you

771
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,440
or you're going to wind up doing dangerous things. And

772
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,519
he also had the idea that there should be the

773
00:48:40,559 --> 00:48:44,119
creation of a language that everyone could speak, so you

774
00:48:44,119 --> 00:48:46,800
could keep your own language, but there would be a

775
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,519
universal language that everyone would be taught so that we

776
00:48:49,519 --> 00:48:53,320
would no longer have this terrible barrier of different languages

777
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,599
that causes so many misunderstandings. And these were Rosicrucian ideas

778
00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:01,960
that Comenius was expressing. So now we're at a fever pitch, right,

779
00:49:02,159 --> 00:49:06,519
you know, people are like, there's a Resicrucian brotherhood. There's

780
00:49:06,519 --> 00:49:08,960
a lot of us. I think the impact was not

781
00:49:09,159 --> 00:49:16,119
unlike when Ginsburg's Howl came out, which many people alive

782
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:20,199
then who got that book, They felt, oh my god,

783
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,360
I'm not alone, you know, like like this is how

784
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,840
I see the world. You know, the city is Molloch,

785
00:49:26,159 --> 00:49:30,920
the government is corrupt, and Howell combined, you know, for

786
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,079
everybody that suddenly they realized there's a lot of us.

787
00:49:34,519 --> 00:49:37,239
It's not just me by myself out here being a freak,

788
00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:43,840
and freak became a good word eventually. And so the

789
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:50,960
the influence of these manifestos becomes political. The Catholic Church

790
00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:54,840
decides it has had enough of Rudolph. Rudolph is not

791
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,559
doing what he's supposed to be doing. He's not handing

792
00:49:56,639 --> 00:50:00,920
the handling the Turkish situation. Well, he's an obvious fornicator.

793
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:05,559
He's not getting married. He's it's just wrong. And his brother,

794
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,760
who's a devout Catholic, his younger brother is ready to

795
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,360
step in and does. The Pope removes Frederick, sorry, removes

796
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:18,360
Rudolph and puts in his brother. And his brother immediately

797
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,679
goes to Prague with an army and says, no more

798
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:26,159
freedom of religion. Now you all have to become Catholics,

799
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,000
or else you live as lesser beings. Prague put up

800
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,239
with it for a bit, and then they decided that

801
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,880
they were going to have none of this, and they

802
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:41,440
famously took the officials of this new Holy Roman Emperor

803
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,320
and threw them out the upstairs window of a government

804
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,079
office onto garbage heaps, and said, get out of here.

805
00:50:48,159 --> 00:50:52,239
He'll get worse. Well, of course this was this meant war,

806
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,679
but everybody was waiting to see what are we going

807
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:59,760
to do next? And the Bohemians and Prague decided, let's

808
00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:05,599
invite a new king of Bohemia. And they picked Frederick

809
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:11,519
the fifth of the Palatinate, who was from a very

810
00:51:11,559 --> 00:51:13,760
ancient noble family that went all the way back to

811
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:18,280
a Roman general that I think worked for Augustus, and

812
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,440
the Palatinate was very wealthy. He was an elector of

813
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,239
a high level, so he was one of the people

814
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,719
that helped to elect the Holy Roman Emperor and he

815
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,159
might have a chance of being the Holy Roman Emperor.

816
00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:32,079
He was a very young guy, but really deeply into

817
00:51:32,119 --> 00:51:36,000
the esoteric, so people were excited. You know that he loved,

818
00:51:36,039 --> 00:51:40,039
for instance, building moving statues that would make sounds, and

819
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:43,360
stuff based on Vitruvius for his wife to enjoy in

820
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,800
a garden, and of course the Catholic stuff. This was

821
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:53,920
black magic, not science, and Frederic unfortunately took the throne

822
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,480
when he was offered it. He felt that this was

823
00:51:56,559 --> 00:51:58,760
a calling that God was giving him, that he had

824
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,400
to go defend the people of Prague from the Catholic

825
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:07,360
Church's tyranny. So he doesn't realize that the Prague is

826
00:52:07,639 --> 00:52:12,719
filled with Catholic spies. He gets in there, he's trying

827
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,760
to be a good king, but immediately the Catholics move

828
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,639
against him with an army and he's barely there for

829
00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:21,039
a winter. They wound up calling him the Winter King.

830
00:52:22,599 --> 00:52:24,400
Part of the reason that he took the gig was

831
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,239
that he was married to Princess Elizabeth, the daughter of

832
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,320
King James of England, and people thought well, Frederick in England,

833
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,519
they call it the Rhine and the Thames, and it's

834
00:52:33,599 --> 00:52:36,760
you know, they're going to unite together and defeat the Catholics.

835
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,119
But James had no intention of doing that, and the

836
00:52:41,199 --> 00:52:44,320
German princes had no intention of doing that. But it

837
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,000
seemed like a good idea on paper to these radicals

838
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:51,719
who had these ideas about universal reformation. A battle happens,

839
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,360
called the Battle of White Mountain. Of course, it's a

840
00:52:54,599 --> 00:52:58,119
terrible defeat for Frederick because they know exactly what he's

841
00:52:58,159 --> 00:53:00,559
going to do. The spies have turned over all plans.

842
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:04,599
His army is just decimated. He has to flee with

843
00:53:04,599 --> 00:53:07,880
with whatever you can carry. And that's the end of

844
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,360
the King of Bohemia and the beginning of a long

845
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:20,199
period of suffering in Prague. That's right, and so now

846
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,760
what do these Rosicrucians do well. Andre is an interesting

847
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:30,440
character because even before Frederick becomes the Winter King, Andre

848
00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:33,800
is seeing, he sees the writing on the wall. He's

849
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:40,599
looking at the hysteria around the Rosicrucian manifestos and he's saying, no, no, no,

850
00:53:40,599 --> 00:53:42,800
no no, this is not what we were going, this

851
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,880
is not what we wanted to do. And he starts

852
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:50,199
disassociating himself, even admits I wrote the Chemical Wedding. He

853
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,039
calls it a ludibrium, a Latin word for a joke,

854
00:53:53,639 --> 00:53:58,199
a satire, a lampoon, and he says, you know this

855
00:53:58,199 --> 00:54:01,000
this stuff, you know that was just kid stuff. And

856
00:54:01,039 --> 00:54:04,599
he writes a book called a Description of the Republic

857
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:10,519
of Christianopolis, which is something like the Republic of Plato,

858
00:54:11,039 --> 00:54:14,719
but it's a Christian version. And he's taking the same

859
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:19,079
ideas basically that we're in Rosicrucianism, but now he's making

860
00:54:19,119 --> 00:54:22,960
the mainstream Lutheran Christian kind of you know, let's do

861
00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:26,920
it this way. So it's interesting that he saw what

862
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,960
Frederick did not see. So he's already backed out before

863
00:54:32,079 --> 00:54:37,239
the disaster happens. But there are many other Rosicrucian fans

864
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,639
or possible actual Rosicrucians, And now there's all these books

865
00:54:40,639 --> 00:54:44,320
being written about Rosicrucianism. But a good example of this

866
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,960
would be Michael Meyer, a German writer who wrote a

867
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,000
book called The Laws of the Rosie Cross, the Fraternity

868
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:53,559
of the Rosy Cross. And you would think, well, he

869
00:54:53,639 --> 00:54:57,760
must be a Rosicrucian, right, But we actually have as

870
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,440
signed val from him that was found saying I am

871
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,599
not a Rosicrucian and so, but then again, this is

872
00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:09,000
the beauty of Rosicrucianism one. This is why it's so confusing.

873
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:14,079
But wouldn't a Rosicrucian say that, right, You would say

874
00:55:14,159 --> 00:55:16,880
I'm not a Rosicrucian because that's his job is to

875
00:55:17,639 --> 00:55:23,480
be invisible. So it becomes this kind of playground for speculation.

876
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,519
Now the story starts to take off again because six

877
00:55:27,639 --> 00:55:30,800
years later, after this huge defeat and now the Thirty

878
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,639
Years War is raging, the Rosicrucians have realized we're not

879
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:40,760
going to turn Europe into a hermetic paradise, right. The

880
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,320
Catholic Church is going to fight this to the bitter end,

881
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:47,840
and we don't have a very good prospect of ever

882
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,039
having a Protestant Holy Roman emperor. Six years after the

883
00:55:52,039 --> 00:55:55,719
Battle of White Mountain, Francis Bacon publishes the New Atlantis.

884
00:55:57,519 --> 00:56:01,079
Some people think that this was influenced by Christianopolis, the

885
00:56:01,079 --> 00:56:06,440
Republic of Christianopolis, and that this is the kind of

886
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:11,679
a metaphorical plan for America to colonize America and make

887
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,039
it this new republic that's away from the Catholic Church,

888
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,400
and now we're going to actually be able to have

889
00:56:22,519 --> 00:56:25,639
the kinds of freedom that we want and the kind

890
00:56:25,679 --> 00:56:30,360
of freedom of religion that existed in Prague. Okay, so

891
00:56:31,039 --> 00:56:32,840
let's go back now for a minute. We're going to

892
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:40,840
tie this all into America. So the Rosicrucians wind up

893
00:56:41,039 --> 00:56:43,880
some of these people that are associated or written Rosicrucian

894
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:49,320
e books wind up associated with Sir Walter Raleigh in England. Now,

895
00:56:49,519 --> 00:56:53,199
Raleigh has been trying to colonize America since fifteen eighty five.

896
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,000
He's really early there. I mean, that's the year that

897
00:56:56,039 --> 00:57:01,679
Andrea is born. This is pre Rosicrucian, although modern Rosicrucian

898
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,519
societies will argue that there already were Rosicrucians, that the

899
00:57:04,559 --> 00:57:07,559
Rosicrucians were a secret society went back into the fourteen

900
00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:13,039
hundreds or even to the twelve hundreds. But Raleigh was

901
00:57:13,079 --> 00:57:17,920
a friend of John Dee. And if there's any doubt

902
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:22,599
about Raleigh's esoteric interests, he wrote a book called The

903
00:57:22,679 --> 00:57:25,760
History of the World, which was this very cheeky bestseller

904
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:30,199
that was eventually banned by King James. And in it

905
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:37,360
he defends magic. He explains that the magicians were sages,

906
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:41,559
and that every culture has had them. He says, the

907
00:57:41,559 --> 00:57:46,039
Magi of Persia, the Kaldians of Babylon, the Greek philosophers

908
00:57:46,039 --> 00:57:49,920
and the founders of the Greek mystery schools, the Jewish Cabalyists.

909
00:57:50,119 --> 00:57:54,559
Every culture has had these sages who understood nature and

910
00:57:54,679 --> 00:57:57,760
had wisdom that helped them to heal the sick and

911
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:02,320
even to guide nations. Well, James is I mean, there's

912
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,039
the king James Bible right, he wrote the Demonologia. I

913
00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:09,360
mean he is very hostile and actually has rally be

914
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:15,039
headed for an alleged scheme to dethrone him. And so

915
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:21,480
but in sixteen eighteen, the last Virginia Colony happens, and

916
00:58:21,559 --> 00:58:25,119
by sixteen eighteen the Rosicrucians who were all worked up

917
00:58:25,199 --> 00:58:27,840
by the Fama and by the other manifestos, and who

918
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:33,320
saw this hope that there might be a king that

919
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:35,800
could step up, which turned out to be Frederick, but

920
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,440
he failed. They are hooked in with Raleigh, and they're

921
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,920
already starting to say, let's look at America as a

922
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,079
place where we can establish this freedom of religion, where

923
00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:49,920
we can have a universal reformation, where we can practice

924
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:55,320
science and Raleigh sends to Virginia people like Thomas Harriott,

925
00:58:55,679 --> 00:58:58,960
who are early scientists, really brilliant. I mean, there's actually

926
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,599
the ruins of our chemical lab were found on a

927
00:59:02,639 --> 00:59:07,599
beach in Virginia not all that long ago. And those

928
00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:12,360
are the people that wind up getting Rally in trouble

929
00:59:12,519 --> 00:59:16,480
because they're they're like questioning things about the Bible. The

930
00:59:16,559 --> 00:59:18,960
dates don't line up, and you know, these are people

931
00:59:19,159 --> 00:59:24,599
are applying science and ways to move water efficiently, or

932
00:59:24,639 --> 00:59:29,840
to redesign navigation for ships, and these wonderful steps forward

933
00:59:30,199 --> 00:59:34,679
that Harriot, for example, invented. But they are seen as

934
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:41,519
Satanists by the average English Christian. And even worse is

935
00:59:41,519 --> 00:59:43,599
that they have a sense of humor about the Bible.

936
00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:47,239
So they found people who were willing to testify that

937
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,880
they would like rip out a Bible page and like

938
00:59:50,039 --> 00:59:53,519
roll a tobacco joint with it, right, and or they

939
00:59:53,559 --> 00:59:56,800
would dry fish with a Bible page, or you know,

940
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,599
and that was considered high treason, you know, practically at

941
01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:05,679
that point. So now we've got the new Atlantis, We've

942
01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:10,760
got Rally's already, you know, got the Virginia colony going,

943
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,360
and we're about to get the John Winthrop the Elder

944
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,840
is going to show up and start the Boston, Massachusetts

945
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,360
Bay Colony, and this brings us to maybe what a

946
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:29,039
Rosicrucian is. In my opinion, his son, John Winthrop the

947
01:00:29,039 --> 01:00:33,239
elder son, John Winthrop the Younger, such an interesting character.

948
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:39,800
He shows up when Rosicrucianism has begun to already be

949
01:00:40,119 --> 01:00:43,800
considered a joke. So like in English drama, there will

950
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,840
be Rosicrucian characters who are feckless old men who know,

951
01:00:48,039 --> 01:00:49,559
you know, it's the kind of thing, you know, he's

952
01:00:49,679 --> 01:00:52,440
he's he's thinking so much about the astrology. They happens

953
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:56,199
he walks into a ditch, those kind of jokes, and

954
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:01,039
they're they're considered to be completely clueless. But despite that,

955
01:01:01,639 --> 01:01:05,000
John Winthrop the Younger, who's a Puritan like his father,

956
01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:14,000
runs into the manifestos when he's studying in London, supposed

957
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,360
to be a lawyer, but he gets into alchemy instead,

958
01:01:17,119 --> 01:01:22,039
and he and his roommate go around looking for Rosicrucians,

959
01:01:22,039 --> 01:01:24,559
not just in Europe. They go to all the way

960
01:01:24,599 --> 01:01:30,400
to Constantinople, following Father CRC's footsteps in the hopes of

961
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,639
finding a real rosicruci and John went with the younger said, well,

962
01:01:34,639 --> 01:01:37,119
I never found one. I never met at what I

963
01:01:37,159 --> 01:01:38,920
would consider a real Rosicrution, just.

964
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: People who, as a Rosicrucian would say exactly.

965
01:01:43,639 --> 01:01:47,679
Speaker 3: And so he's called to join his father in sixteen

966
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,639
thirty one. So now we are, like, you know, about

967
01:01:51,679 --> 01:01:56,559
twenty years barely like fifteen years after the manifestos, and

968
01:01:57,079 --> 01:02:00,519
he shows up, and this is such an amazing thing,

969
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,320
so different from the America we've been taught. The Pilgrims

970
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:05,960
were not the way we were taught that they were.

971
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,639
And you have this image that they were, you know,

972
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:14,679
super strict Christians and that anything as astrology, anything occult

973
01:02:14,679 --> 01:02:19,079
would be despised. Well, the truth was that when John

974
01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:22,320
Winthrop the Younger arrived in the United States, he had

975
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:28,880
barrels and crates that were filled with alchemical equipment and

976
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,360
with many of the books and manuscripts of John D.

977
01:02:33,559 --> 01:02:39,280
And John D's famous symbol, the Monus Hieroglyphica, was put

978
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,119
on all of his luggage and on his barrels that

979
01:02:42,239 --> 01:02:46,840
contained this stuff. Unbelievable. I mean, you know, I always

980
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:48,960
use the example that's like the son of a Southern

981
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,079
Baptist minister coming back from summer camp with pentagrams all

982
01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:54,960
over his luggage. No one said a word about it.

983
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,800
In fact, he set up an alchemical laboratory in his

984
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:03,320
father's house. So the governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony had

985
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:08,920
an alchemy astrology lab going on in his house, and

986
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:14,760
John Winthrop he had a very interesting approach. He decided

987
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,880
that if he couldn't meet a Rosicrucian, he would just

988
01:03:18,039 --> 01:03:22,920
be a Rosicrucian. He liked the Rosicrucian ideals. He liked

989
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,119
the idea that you should fit in where you are,

990
01:03:25,239 --> 01:03:29,119
You should learn to heal people and do it for free.

991
01:03:30,079 --> 01:03:33,480
We should support the innocent and the weak and defend them.

992
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,719
All these ideas, and he did this. He spent his

993
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:42,079
life as a famous alchemist who created all kinds of

994
01:03:42,159 --> 01:03:45,639
medicines that were famous in the early colonies. He was

995
01:03:45,679 --> 01:03:49,599
basically the doctor for the whole Connecticut territory. He was

996
01:03:49,599 --> 01:03:52,079
in so much demand that he had to come up

997
01:03:52,079 --> 01:03:55,719
with his color coded packet system for his medicines. And

998
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,000
he trained women who are nurses or midwives or cunning

999
01:03:59,039 --> 01:04:03,320
women how to recognize simple symptoms and then give the

1000
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:07,599
right colored packet to people. He protected the pea Quot

1001
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,000
tribe from the Mohegans who tried to enslave them, a

1002
01:04:11,079 --> 01:04:15,119
great danger to himself and to the Pequots, and he

1003
01:04:15,239 --> 01:04:19,119
actually won, and he got them to get their status

1004
01:04:19,119 --> 01:04:22,960
as a tribe reinstated, and their original names were restored

1005
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:27,360
to them, and he really did something wonderful there. He

1006
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,719
kept the people that lived in Connecticut Territory who worked

1007
01:04:30,719 --> 01:04:34,559
with him safe from having to go serve the English

1008
01:04:34,599 --> 01:04:38,760
crown in wars all over the world. He would get

1009
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,719
the order you need to send men to serve in

1010
01:04:40,719 --> 01:04:43,920
the army, and he would ignore it, and they would

1011
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,119
send another order. He'd ignore it. Then they would send

1012
01:04:46,159 --> 01:04:48,679
somebody to say you need to send somebody, and he

1013
01:04:48,679 --> 01:04:52,119
would say, wait, wait, wait, but tell the King that

1014
01:04:52,199 --> 01:04:55,559
I need all these guys to keep this iron factory

1015
01:04:55,599 --> 01:04:58,079
that I'm building, and the King wants the iron right

1016
01:04:58,239 --> 01:05:01,320
for the wars, so I need these people. Well, the

1017
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:03,079
guy would have to go back to England to ask

1018
01:05:03,119 --> 01:05:06,800
the King what he wanted to do, so these people

1019
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,239
would be safe for a long periods of time because

1020
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:13,880
of him. He was famous for making gold in Connecticut.

1021
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,760
There's a hill that that used to be called the

1022
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,840
Governor's Hill, and it was supposed to be the spot

1023
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,559
where he would make this very pure gold. They say

1024
01:05:23,559 --> 01:05:26,719
he came back with these golden rings that he would

1025
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:32,079
use to pay for his all these these these science

1026
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,719
projects he had, like he had a desalinization plant made

1027
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,840
to make salt to purify water from the ocean. And

1028
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,679
he was really into science. He was one of what

1029
01:05:42,719 --> 01:05:47,519
they used to call the celestial intelligencers. These were what

1030
01:05:47,599 --> 01:05:49,960
we would now call I guess scientists. But these were

1031
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:55,880
renaissance men who were interested in what became chemistry, what

1032
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:59,280
became astronomy, who built telescopes, and they were all in

1033
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,840
touch with each other. They would write each other and

1034
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:05,400
send instruments to each other so that they could kind

1035
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,760
of combine their knowledge. And he tried to put together

1036
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:14,159
in a college in America, a college of light in America,

1037
01:06:14,239 --> 01:06:17,159
where everyone would be able to, you know, come with

1038
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:19,880
the great geniuses, and then they would greatly benefit the

1039
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,960
world by being able to practice science freely in this

1040
01:06:23,159 --> 01:06:27,679
territory that he was in control of. But unfortunately, there

1041
01:06:27,719 --> 01:06:32,719
were some indigenous uprisings that scared the Europeans out of

1042
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,639
wanting to come to America, and so it did not

1043
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,119
happen here, but this man winds up being one of

1044
01:06:40,159 --> 01:06:45,559
the earliest governors of Connecticut. He's really an amazing story

1045
01:06:45,679 --> 01:06:53,679
of trying to live out Rosicrucian ideals. And I happened

1046
01:06:53,719 --> 01:06:58,960
to have a conversation with Manley Hall very near the

1047
01:06:59,079 --> 01:07:02,119
end of my time with him. I asked him, if

1048
01:07:02,159 --> 01:07:04,840
you had anything to do, oh, if you could do

1049
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:09,079
it all over again, what would you do differently? And

1050
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,440
he said that he felt that in the beginning he

1051
01:07:11,599 --> 01:07:17,320
glamorized the Blovatskian kind of you know, masters and the

1052
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,920
superpowers and this stuff, and he regretted it. And in

1053
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:24,920
the book he was working on at that time, which

1054
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:29,320
was about the Rosicrucians, he said that he thought that

1055
01:07:29,719 --> 01:07:32,280
now at this point in his life, that if we

1056
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:36,480
want to understand what Rosicrucians are, what they really are

1057
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:44,000
are the people most devoted to humanity during any time period.

1058
01:07:45,039 --> 01:07:48,000
And he said, the people who live their entire lives

1059
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:52,480
to help other people, who have breakthroughs and ideas, and

1060
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:57,320
who become exemplars of how to be a good person,

1061
01:07:58,039 --> 01:08:02,360
that those are Rosicrucians. So he's stretching the metaphor into

1062
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:06,440
this completely different place that really you know, it hadn't

1063
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:10,800
been taken into and going back to our stories, so

1064
01:08:11,920 --> 01:08:17,159
Winthrop in part had to live through the era of Cromwell.

1065
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,119
So first he had to kiss the king's ass, and

1066
01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:22,680
then he had to deal with Cromwell, and then he

1067
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,560
had to kiss another king's ass, King Charles, when the

1068
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:29,760
monarchy returned. And he did this all in, you know,

1069
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:36,119
in very positive ways. So for example, when Charles said,

1070
01:08:36,199 --> 01:08:38,600
you know what, you're not the governor of Connecticut anymore.

1071
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,159
I'm bringing in my people, but I want you to

1072
01:08:41,199 --> 01:08:44,560
negotiate the surrender of the Dutch and give us New York.

1073
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:47,840
John Winthrop just went, okay, you know when he went

1074
01:08:48,199 --> 01:08:52,720
and he negotiated New York, and and still tried to

1075
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:56,039
figure out how to improve the territory and and bring

1076
01:08:56,079 --> 01:09:01,760
the tribes back into some kind of cooperation. And Cromwell

1077
01:09:02,760 --> 01:09:07,600
was influenced by the Rosicrucians too, and the great poets

1078
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:13,960
of his era, Marvel and Milton, were influenced by Rosicrucian ideas.

1079
01:09:14,239 --> 01:09:17,640
There are some people who say that the idea of

1080
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:20,199
Satan in Milton, where he says I would rather rule

1081
01:09:20,199 --> 01:09:23,319
in hell than serve in heaven, was a reaction to

1082
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:30,680
the Rosicrucian rebellion against the Catholic Church, right, and Cromwell

1083
01:09:31,199 --> 01:09:34,880
saw on the Rosicrucians this whole other thing. So he's militaristic.

1084
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:39,439
He's using scientific ideas to create the new modeled army,

1085
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,600
which was so modern that it was devastating to the

1086
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:47,640
cavaliers in the English Civil War. And he's he's thinking

1087
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:51,760
that he's applying Rosicrucian ideas while he's killing people, and

1088
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:57,279
he's beheading the king and running the United Kingdom as

1089
01:09:57,279 --> 01:10:00,880
a dictator. Really, but he thinks, so what he's doing

1090
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:06,000
is he's fighting the Catholics, he's liberating education, he's encouraging

1091
01:10:06,039 --> 01:10:09,000
people to read the Bible for themselves. So there are

1092
01:10:09,119 --> 01:10:14,239
ways in which he is representing Rosicrucian ideals. He sends

1093
01:10:14,359 --> 01:10:18,640
those troops to areas where Protestants are trying to survive.

1094
01:10:19,199 --> 01:10:24,840
Catholic onslaughts and sees this as defending the true faith,

1095
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:31,039
the Protestant faith. A lot of people say that the

1096
01:10:31,159 --> 01:10:37,239
Rosicrucians were influenced by Arabian thought, by Islam. In fact,

1097
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,439
and Father CRC was said to have gone to Constantinople,

1098
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:45,079
where he learned the secrets of alchemy, and of course

1099
01:10:45,119 --> 01:10:50,279
a lot of neoplatonism and of alchemical experimentation was done

1100
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,680
in the Arabian countries, and a lot of materials were

1101
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,159
preserved there that were not preserved in the West. And

1102
01:10:57,199 --> 01:11:00,199
when you look, there are similarities. And elifis lee By

1103
01:11:00,279 --> 01:11:02,880
points this out when he talks about the Rosicrucians. He says,

1104
01:11:03,319 --> 01:11:05,680
he says, look at the Protestants and look at Islam.

1105
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:08,520
So in the Catholic Church you can you know, you

1106
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,880
want big golden statues and paintings of Jesus and all this.

1107
01:11:12,399 --> 01:11:15,680
Protestants they're not supposed to have that. They're not supposed

1108
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:20,079
to to have idols, right, neither is Islam. In fact,

1109
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:22,199
in Islam it's so strong you can't really even have

1110
01:11:22,279 --> 01:11:27,079
depictions you're supposed to have. Writing used the idea that

1111
01:11:27,079 --> 01:11:31,800
that each of us has an individual relationship with God

1112
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:35,359
and that we have to to you know, there's practices

1113
01:11:35,399 --> 01:11:38,600
that we must do. So it isn't a priest saying

1114
01:11:39,039 --> 01:11:41,199
you do whatever you want, but you come to church

1115
01:11:41,319 --> 01:11:43,479
once a week and I absolve you have whatever bad

1116
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:46,720
things you did. You don't get absolved if you don't

1117
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:50,119
live a good life. There's no easy forgiveness, there's no indulgence.

1118
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,760
You you must do the hard work. And there's other

1119
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,079
stuff that too much detail to get into, but there

1120
01:11:57,079 --> 01:12:01,720
are similarities between how Islam approaches religion and the deity

1121
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:07,079
and how the Protestants do. And so after Cromwell is gone,

1122
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,960
we get a fruition I think of the Rosicrucian impulse

1123
01:12:13,039 --> 01:12:15,880
and certainly of Francis Bacon's ideas with the creation of

1124
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:19,760
the Royal Society. And now we have sort of this

1125
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,520
invisible college. We have a group of scientists who get

1126
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:27,600
together and they share information and knowledge, and we also

1127
01:12:28,239 --> 01:12:31,720
have this idea of universal reformation, that we're going to

1128
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:37,800
improve the world through science. So as this progresses, now

1129
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:41,199
that the Masons have absorbed a lot of Rosicrucian ideas,

1130
01:12:41,239 --> 01:12:45,680
and there's rosicruc degrees in some of the free Masonic organizations,

1131
01:12:46,279 --> 01:12:49,840
and there were literally you know, we are Rosicrusis, but

1132
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:54,119
we're really free Mason groups like the sr AA in

1133
01:12:54,279 --> 01:12:56,560
the United Kingdom that had some of the Golden Dawn

1134
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:03,199
members involved in it, the max Heindel Rosicrucianism, the so

1135
01:13:03,399 --> 01:13:12,720
max Heindel and the Rosicrucianism that really derives from Beverly Randolph.

1136
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:16,359
He's an interesting example because he comes out with a

1137
01:13:16,359 --> 01:13:22,000
whole Rosicrucian idea with sex magic worked into it in America,

1138
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:27,560
claiming that he was initiated in Europe. He later writes,

1139
01:13:28,359 --> 01:13:31,520
now that was all bullshit. They wouldn't listen to me

1140
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,880
because I was, you know, a colored person, and so

1141
01:13:35,159 --> 01:13:37,640
I decided if I said it was from the Rosicrucians,

1142
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:40,800
maybe they would, and they did. But I never I

1143
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:44,079
never was a Rosicrucian. These are my ideas. That's what

1144
01:13:44,239 --> 01:13:49,840
often happened. Max Heindel was supposedly initiated in Europe and

1145
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:53,159
that's where he got the information. But then if you

1146
01:13:53,199 --> 01:13:56,119
dig into his story, there's an interesting moment when he

1147
01:13:56,760 --> 01:14:01,359
goes off to encounter Rudolph Steiner, and his comment about

1148
01:14:01,359 --> 01:14:03,840
Steiner is that the stuff is wonderful, but it will

1149
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:07,399
never go across in America the way he expresses it,

1150
01:14:08,079 --> 01:14:10,479
so that suggests that there's a good bit of what

1151
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:15,600
Heinel was doing. It was probably adapted from Steiner. Steiner

1152
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:19,640
was calling himself a Rosicrucian or appealing to Rosicrucian tradition

1153
01:14:20,039 --> 01:14:24,159
because of his strong feelings about the Universal Reformation and

1154
01:14:24,239 --> 01:14:27,800
about how education should he was resonating with that current.

1155
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,600
It was what they used to call it. But as

1156
01:14:32,319 --> 01:14:36,399
Arthur Edward Waite wrote, a very early scholar, not a

1157
01:14:36,399 --> 01:14:38,800
bad one. He's got kind of a bad reputation, but

1158
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:43,119
he was actually the first really careful scholar in this area.

1159
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:47,279
And he once wrote that all of these modern public

1160
01:14:47,359 --> 01:14:54,119
Rosicrucian societies have zero connection with the original Rosicrucian movement.

1161
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:58,199
Now can he be sure of that? No? Is it

1162
01:14:58,279 --> 01:15:01,680
accurate to say that? Not really, because certainly one of

1163
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:04,840
the main connections they have is that they're very inspired

1164
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:08,319
by it, and they are using ideas that they encountered

1165
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:13,199
through the Rosicrucians and developments of Rosicrucianism. So you have,

1166
01:15:13,359 --> 01:15:19,000
for example, you mentioned Descartes, and he's been kind of

1167
01:15:19,039 --> 01:15:21,960
thrown in there along with Abraham Lincoln and all kinds

1168
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:27,159
of people as a Rosicrucian, and he was interested in Rosicrucianism.

1169
01:15:27,279 --> 01:15:32,159
He actually did explore Rosicrucian ideas, and he was very

1170
01:15:32,199 --> 01:15:37,680
good friends with one of the daughters of Princess Elizabeth King,

1171
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:42,279
James's daughter, and so this one was a brilliant philosopher

1172
01:15:42,279 --> 01:15:45,920
in her own right, and she helped Discartes to develop

1173
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:51,239
his ideas. But Discartes wasn't a secret rosicruci initiate as

1174
01:15:51,239 --> 01:15:54,000
far as we know. He didn't really have a whole

1175
01:15:54,039 --> 01:15:57,840
lot of sympathy for Rosicrucian ideas. And yet what he

1176
01:15:57,960 --> 01:16:01,560
wound up doing was influence by the Rosicrucians because they

1177
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:03,920
were such a liberating thing, you know that they came

1178
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:07,720
out of nowhere and said, fuck the church, let's do science,

1179
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:12,039
you know, let's learn everything we can. Ironically, part of

1180
01:16:12,079 --> 01:16:17,079
that was because they believed that the world was going

1181
01:16:17,079 --> 01:16:20,720
to end soon, and they believed that the Bible told

1182
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:25,520
them that when the world ended, human beings would first

1183
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:29,920
reattain the knowledge that Adam lost. So they got the

1184
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:32,840
bright idea, and this really shows you something about them, Well,

1185
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:36,039
what if we work really hard to get all that knowledge,

1186
01:16:36,079 --> 01:16:39,520
that way, the apocalypse would come that much faster. And

1187
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,039
they wanted the apocalypse because then they'd be free, you know,

1188
01:16:42,079 --> 01:16:44,520
they'd be free to be with God and there wouldn't

1189
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:47,159
be any more of this nightmarish world that we're dealing with.

1190
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:53,960
Satan and all and the Catholic Church. And so that's

1191
01:16:54,359 --> 01:16:57,479
in a nutshell why it's so hard to pin down,

1192
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,000
you know, what a Rosicrucian is something that has been

1193
01:17:01,159 --> 01:17:05,399
used so often. It has such a an aura about

1194
01:17:05,399 --> 01:17:08,520
it that when somebody comes out and they say, oh,

1195
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:12,199
I'm not a Rosicrucian. You know, my initials are RC

1196
01:17:13,159 --> 01:17:15,279
my first and last name, I mean, my first and

1197
01:17:15,279 --> 01:17:18,960
middle name. And I've had people go, oh, come on,

1198
01:17:19,359 --> 01:17:21,279
you know, I mean look at you know, clearly, and

1199
01:17:21,319 --> 01:17:24,439
then other people go, no, no, that means he's Roman Catholic,

1200
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:26,880
don't you see, you know, And it's like, I don't

1201
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,399
know why my parents picked two names that we had RC.

1202
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:32,000
But you know, I can tell you I'm neither a

1203
01:17:32,039 --> 01:17:35,319
Rosicrusion nor a Roman Catholic. But what I tell you

1204
01:17:35,399 --> 01:17:39,159
if I was, you know, it's just this incredible, you

1205
01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:42,720
know mess. So that's that's why I see it as

1206
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:46,640
is take the inspiration, you know. So let's talk about

1207
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:51,520
universal reformation for a moment, because to begin with, what

1208
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:55,439
we're seeing right now in America is a little bit

1209
01:17:55,720 --> 01:18:01,920
like this the Cromwell disconnect right where Trump and family,

1210
01:18:02,239 --> 01:18:05,319
you know, and cohorts are trying to do a universal

1211
01:18:05,359 --> 01:18:09,800
Reformation as they see it. Now, we may be you know,

1212
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,239
we may be like, well, whoa, you're not You're going backwards.

1213
01:18:12,279 --> 01:18:15,039
That's not you know, this isn't freedom of religion, you know,

1214
01:18:15,199 --> 01:18:17,960
equal rights and all these things that have been fought

1215
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:21,479
for by you know, the Rosicrucian current and the esoteric

1216
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:25,479
current in America and such. You're you're actually kind of

1217
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:28,319
going backwards to white men rule and it's the church

1218
01:18:28,399 --> 01:18:33,680
or else and that's not, that's not our tradition. Well,

1219
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:37,600
it is for them, and they are just like Rosicrucians

1220
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:40,560
are going for that universal Reformation by God, and they

1221
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:43,319
don't care who gets in the way. And so that

1222
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:48,560
is part of this this impulse, this Rosicrucian impulse. My

1223
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:52,520
my argument is that the universal Reformation is intended by

1224
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:59,640
the Rosicrucians, was meant to be personal individual right, how

1225
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:04,760
do you create a universal reformation. You don't do it

1226
01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:07,359
by getting out there and forcing people to act in

1227
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:11,720
certain ways and banning things or such. You do it

1228
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:16,600
by changing your life, your world, your little corner of

1229
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:20,920
the world. If Wan and Ronnie can have their own

1230
01:19:21,079 --> 01:19:25,840
universal Reformation, and they can bring that to their lives

1231
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:29,439
and to everybody in their lives and to their work. Well,

1232
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:34,359
now we have a possibility, because if you're doing universal

1233
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:37,039
reformation where you are, I'm doing it where I am,

1234
01:19:37,079 --> 01:19:39,159
and there's people doing it in a bunch of other places,

1235
01:19:39,199 --> 01:19:42,760
it doesn't even take that many people, because the ideas

1236
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:47,680
are so inspiring. And if this is true, that our

1237
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:52,560
spiritual anatomy as human beings is such that actually within

1238
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:59,920
us is this infinite, potentially divine source of intelligence and creativity,

1239
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:05,119
and that we're here to learn and to learn to love.

1240
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:10,039
Facino said that love is the most powerful magic, and

1241
01:20:10,079 --> 01:20:14,960
that love is the key to magic. Then we can

1242
01:20:15,039 --> 01:20:18,760
have a powerful influence in our in our world, and

1243
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:22,239
that that can spread to other people, and then life

1244
01:20:22,359 --> 01:20:27,640
improves for many, many people because of each individual reformation,

1245
01:20:28,359 --> 01:20:32,880
not these top down reformations where you're trying to force

1246
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:35,279
everybody to do things in a certain way that you

1247
01:20:35,399 --> 01:20:39,960
think is right, but instead doing it in a way

1248
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:44,640
that is more nuanced and more connected to what's happening

1249
01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:48,960
in the world, and not to these grandiose, intellectualized concepts,

1250
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:52,800
because that's where so much I think of whether it's

1251
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:56,279
you're talking about metaphysics or any form of spirituality and

1252
01:20:56,319 --> 01:21:00,600
religion or politics. It's people get up in here, man,

1253
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:04,439
and they they forget the simple things. They forget to

1254
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:08,359
be decent, They forget that that you know, they're breaking

1255
01:21:08,359 --> 01:21:11,000
their mom's hearts, you know what I mean. It's it's

1256
01:21:11,039 --> 01:21:14,399
like there's there's there's a level to to go out

1257
01:21:14,399 --> 01:21:17,920
there and turn into I don't want to pick on

1258
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:20,119
Elon Musk, but he's he's kind of the guy right

1259
01:21:20,119 --> 01:21:23,239
now everybody's picking on if you if you're going to

1260
01:21:23,279 --> 01:21:24,880
be an Elon Musk and you're going to go out

1261
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:26,880
there and you're going to get kicks out of you know,

1262
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:29,239
did I did I do a Nazi salute or didn't I?

1263
01:21:29,319 --> 01:21:31,960
And you know, ship like that, man, you're up in

1264
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:35,239
your head. You know, like you there's nothing cool about you.

1265
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:39,680
It's like that, that's you know, that's not being a good,

1266
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:43,079
powerful human being. That you may be the richest motherfucker

1267
01:21:43,119 --> 01:21:46,079
in the world, but but you don't know how to act.

1268
01:21:47,039 --> 01:21:51,359
And so we're looking for a reawakening in the world.

1269
01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:55,279
And and when I'm seeing like this, it's mind blowing,

1270
01:21:55,319 --> 01:21:58,199
you know. It's the amount of hatred. I mean, these

1271
01:21:58,239 --> 01:22:01,760
two sides of just throw into this like death grip

1272
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,720
with each other, and they don't believe anything the other

1273
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:07,840
one says, and they they think that the other one

1274
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:09,760
should be wiped off the face of the earth. And

1275
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:13,439
this is the old story man, there is the capital. Yeah,

1276
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:15,159
exactly exactly.

1277
01:22:15,399 --> 01:22:20,640
Speaker 2: So with all with everything you've said, I kind of

1278
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:25,159
see Rosicrucianism under a different light now, and I kind

1279
01:22:25,159 --> 01:22:28,359
of want to say that they're still around.

1280
01:22:28,680 --> 01:22:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not a rosicrusion.

1281
01:22:31,159 --> 01:22:35,119
Speaker 2: I'm not a rosicrusion, but sure, but sure you aren't.

1282
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:36,560
Speaker 3: You and me are.

1283
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:38,039
Speaker 1: No, we're not.

1284
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:41,600
Speaker 2: But it feels like it's almost like a sort of

1285
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:46,039
it's a force of some kind that wants to prevail

1286
01:22:47,319 --> 01:22:50,479
on its own, and there are just people assuming the

1287
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:54,439
position and not so much something that you would think of,

1288
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:57,479
like because when I was reading through your book and

1289
01:22:57,479 --> 01:23:00,680
and kind of looking around, like you know, this secret

1290
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:04,640
order that's trying to bring forth this this new world order,

1291
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:06,000
like a lot of people like to talk about all

1292
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:08,119
the new world Oh my goodness, you know, the new

1293
01:23:08,159 --> 01:23:11,319
Atlantis and all these other things in Plato's Republic, like

1294
01:23:11,359 --> 01:23:16,319
this unification, and it's like, are these were the rosicrucions

1295
01:23:16,359 --> 01:23:17,680
the Illuminati too.

1296
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:20,239
Speaker 1: Like are they the Illuminati? Like what is that? Or

1297
01:23:20,319 --> 01:23:21,119
is it again?

1298
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:24,760
Speaker 2: I'm looking at Rosicrutionism like this force and you can

1299
01:23:25,560 --> 01:23:28,560
slip into that role if you'd like and help full,

1300
01:23:29,319 --> 01:23:34,159
But then you get the whole ascended Master's white brotherhood

1301
01:23:34,199 --> 01:23:36,159
and it's like, what is that? Is that just another

1302
01:23:36,239 --> 01:23:41,479
interpretation of Rosicrucianism where sure, you know this guy had

1303
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:44,960
a vision from the the invisible Masters or whatever he

1304
01:23:45,039 --> 01:23:49,520
called them. It's like, is that something individual to that person?

1305
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:55,119
But its court still has those resicution ideals where it's like, hey,

1306
01:23:55,159 --> 01:23:58,159
the betterment of humanity And it seems like we're how

1307
01:23:58,199 --> 01:24:01,640
you're saying, we're so stuck in this left right paradigm

1308
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:08,239
that were we all want peace, we all want you know,

1309
01:24:08,279 --> 01:24:11,840
the betterment of humanity, but we just can't seem to

1310
01:24:11,880 --> 01:24:14,920
get there. Is that the devil that holds us back

1311
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:18,520
from being able to achieve that? And maybe it is

1312
01:24:18,600 --> 01:24:21,920
the light in the dark right like this, these two

1313
01:24:22,039 --> 01:24:23,920
lodges that fighting with each other.

1314
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:26,960
Speaker 3: Different ways to see this. I'll give you two that

1315
01:24:27,399 --> 01:24:30,960
I've found to be helpful. One was told to me

1316
01:24:31,159 --> 01:24:36,560
by an alleged spirit talking to me through a taus

1317
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:44,600
Puebla shaman, and he was asked what is the purpose

1318
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:48,439
of life on earth? And he said that Earth is

1319
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:53,600
a combination of the Devil's island of space and a kindergarten.

1320
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:58,560
And he said it's we're all the little hitlers from

1321
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:03,239
all the different worlds come to learn some basic lessons.

1322
01:25:04,399 --> 01:25:08,479
And if you look at the world at ourselves, even

1323
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:11,119
good people, I mean, we've got that strain. You know,

1324
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:13,880
we're all little hitlers. We're all dictating what we think

1325
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:15,960
is right and go on your social media, and especially

1326
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:18,319
if it's politics. I mean, everybody knows exactly how it's

1327
01:25:18,319 --> 01:25:21,039
supposed to be and what's going on, So that could

1328
01:25:21,039 --> 01:25:23,880
be I love that description. I thought that that goes

1329
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:29,399
a long way. Another one can be found in the

1330
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:35,439
Secret of the Golden Flower, which is that when we

1331
01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:40,000
incarnate the soul, it doesn't literally divide, but in a

1332
01:25:40,079 --> 01:25:42,800
sense it becomes the lower soul and the higher soul,

1333
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:47,600
because the lower soul is what's keeping your body sustained, harmonized,

1334
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:51,800
working the life force, knowing how to talk, remembering things,

1335
01:25:51,840 --> 01:25:54,359
having consciousness and dreams and memory and family and all

1336
01:25:54,399 --> 01:25:58,439
that stuff that's being busy with all that is your

1337
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:03,199
soul in claustrophoe be a right like like that feeling

1338
01:26:03,199 --> 01:26:06,880
people have, which Aristotle described as being like the etruscan

1339
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:10,039
pirate torture of tying a corpse face to face with

1340
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:15,239
a captive. Are angst in the body, according to this

1341
01:26:15,319 --> 01:26:18,319
point of view, So you know, we're we're sitting We're

1342
01:26:18,359 --> 01:26:21,600
sitting here in our bodies, going you know what, you know,

1343
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:27,159
why are these things happening? You know, the higher soul

1344
01:26:27,600 --> 01:26:31,239
is not like that. The higher soul when it views life,

1345
01:26:31,279 --> 01:26:34,720
when you can waken it, you can reach that consciousness.

1346
01:26:34,720 --> 01:26:38,079
While you're embodied, you have a completely different view of life.

1347
01:26:38,119 --> 01:26:41,159
If you're in the lower soul. According to this teaching,

1348
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:46,680
you're going, I'm afraid, I'm angry. The world is this big, scary,

1349
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:49,439
permanent place. It's going to roll over me. I'm going

1350
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:53,880
to disappear. I'm impermanent and something horrible could happen at

1351
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:57,319
any second and no one would care. There seems to

1352
01:26:57,359 --> 01:27:01,119
be evidence of that all around us. And you will

1353
01:27:01,159 --> 01:27:04,279
be loving death right, You'll be loving you know, gory

1354
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,199
scenes in movies or playing games when you're killing people

1355
01:27:07,319 --> 01:27:10,359
or and the reason for that is because whenever it

1356
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:14,600
sees death, the lower soul is going, oh, someday that'll

1357
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:15,880
be me and I'll be out of here.

1358
01:27:17,239 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 2: Society nowadays, Ronie, a lot of people relax to true

1359
01:27:21,119 --> 01:27:21,800
true crime.

1360
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:25,039
Speaker 1: They like to relax. Yes, what is that, dude.

1361
01:27:25,079 --> 01:27:28,680
Speaker 3: Same thing. It's the lower soul seeing that there will

1362
01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:32,399
be an end to this torment, that there will come

1363
01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:35,880
a time when I will be free, and there's a

1364
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:39,920
comfort in it. And the higher soul, when it's awakened

1365
01:27:40,039 --> 01:27:43,399
in a living person, then you approach life completely differently.

1366
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:49,079
You realize that you're not transgent, that the world is trangent,

1367
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:53,039
that the world is impermanent. The things that you love

1368
01:27:53,079 --> 01:27:56,920
are going to disappear, and you cherish them. You cherish

1369
01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:59,840
every day. And I've worked with this practice and it works.

1370
01:28:00,199 --> 01:28:04,960
Even you wind up even feeling kind of empathetic.

1371
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:05,359
Speaker 1: I know it is.

1372
01:28:05,399 --> 01:28:08,359
Speaker 3: Empathy's the right word. But even your enemies are sort

1373
01:28:08,359 --> 01:28:12,760
of people traveling with you through this time and space,

1374
01:28:13,159 --> 01:28:15,359
and you feel it, and you feel like, oh, we're

1375
01:28:15,359 --> 01:28:18,960
all here together for just a moment, and you know,

1376
01:28:19,159 --> 01:28:21,840
isn't it beautiful. I don't know what it means. I

1377
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:24,640
don't even you know, but look at this miracle of life,

1378
01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:28,279
and we're all creating it together. I mean, that's the

1379
01:28:28,319 --> 01:28:30,079
difference between the higher and the lower soul and the

1380
01:28:30,119 --> 01:28:33,399
secret of the golden flowers. So why is there all this, Well,

1381
01:28:33,439 --> 01:28:37,319
this is the lower soul, hatred, anger, fear, power mongering,

1382
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:42,119
no faith, right in the harmony of the universe. And

1383
01:28:42,199 --> 01:28:43,680
you can also look at it from the hymns of

1384
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:48,720
Orpheus or the Orphic mythology, where you're told that we

1385
01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:54,479
are the children. What the origin of humanity is is

1386
01:28:54,520 --> 01:29:01,760
that when Zagrius, the baby Dionecius, is born, Zeus loves

1387
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:07,039
him and puts him on his own throne, saying, essentially,

1388
01:29:07,079 --> 01:29:09,920
this is the future king of the gods, and he's

1389
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,359
going to be as much better a king than you know,

1390
01:29:12,399 --> 01:29:15,960
than I am, than I was than over Kronos. And

1391
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:21,800
the Titans see this, the original gods and the natural

1392
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:24,760
forces gods, and they're angry. They hate Zeus because Zeus

1393
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:27,800
lock them up in Tartarus and now here's Zeus coming

1394
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:31,039
up with another god, and they want to do something

1395
01:29:31,039 --> 01:29:34,680
about it. So they lure Zagrius away from the throne

1396
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:38,159
using toys, a little fluff of cotton, like a little

1397
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:44,119
it's similar a ball, and these are images of the planet,

1398
01:29:44,279 --> 01:29:47,960
of the meshing of the human organs and such, and

1399
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:54,119
draws baby Zagrius into Tartarus, into a dark space away

1400
01:29:54,199 --> 01:29:57,600
from the consciousness of Zeus. They kill him, they make

1401
01:29:57,640 --> 01:29:59,520
a stew out of him. They're going to eat him

1402
01:30:00,039 --> 01:30:02,039
because they're going to get the power of the god

1403
01:30:02,119 --> 01:30:04,960
that way. And it's very primitive kind of thinking. And

1404
01:30:05,319 --> 01:30:08,840
Zeus finally finds out what's happened. He's horrified. He throws

1405
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:12,079
lightning at the whole mess is to stop it, and

1406
01:30:12,319 --> 01:30:17,520
it all burns. And in that ash that's partially divine

1407
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:24,159
Zagrias and partially the Titans. Human beings are born. So

1408
01:30:24,199 --> 01:30:30,680
we are half Titan and we are half divine, actually

1409
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:36,159
parts of Dionecius. So therefore the Titanic part of us

1410
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:41,319
hates the gods, hates harmony, wants to fight, thinks it

1411
01:30:41,359 --> 01:30:44,199
knows everything better, thinks it should be in charge, it

1412
01:30:44,199 --> 01:30:49,039
should have everything. The other part of us is the stars,

1413
01:30:49,199 --> 01:30:52,600
is divine. And so the great orphic formula was, I

1414
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:55,960
am a child of Earth, the Titans, and of Heaven,

1415
01:30:56,640 --> 01:31:00,840
of Dionecius and the gods. But my race is of Heaven.

1416
01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:03,760
And so when you can claim this. When you were

1417
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:07,800
initiated into the orphic mysteries, you woke up that that

1418
01:31:08,039 --> 01:31:10,720
side of you that is divine, and you lived a

1419
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:14,520
completely different life. You were no longer somebody whose dream

1420
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:16,800
was to be a warrior and kill a lot of people,

1421
01:31:17,399 --> 01:31:20,600
or to you know, have many women or you. Suddenly

1422
01:31:20,640 --> 01:31:23,760
you were you were living for the gods, right, You

1423
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:27,000
were living for the harmony of the universe, the very

1424
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:28,279
Pythagorean kind.

1425
01:31:28,159 --> 01:31:31,039
Speaker 1: Of an approach to life. Were the Pythagoreans following this

1426
01:31:31,119 --> 01:31:31,680
line of thought.

1427
01:31:32,319 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 3: I think they may have created it. You know, my theory,

1428
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:39,039
no one no one assured. There's a lot of interesting

1429
01:31:39,079 --> 01:31:42,640
origin possibilities for the orphic stuff, but but my favorite

1430
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:46,119
is that it was a literary creation, a hoax basically

1431
01:31:46,199 --> 01:31:51,079
by the Pythagoreans trying to create a new culture, a

1432
01:31:51,119 --> 01:31:56,039
city culture, a kind of They felt that this whole

1433
01:31:56,079 --> 01:31:57,880
idea that you know, the best thing in the world

1434
01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:00,439
is to die in war, and we're killing anne animals

1435
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:02,760
for the gods. They didn't. They thought that was all wrong,

1436
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:06,439
and they should you should take out these primitive ideas

1437
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:10,079
and give us a religion for the city where what

1438
01:32:10,159 --> 01:32:12,800
the gods want is us to be good people, to

1439
01:32:12,920 --> 01:32:16,239
create beauty, to to to heal the sick and such.

1440
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:22,680
Speaker 2: Theres right exactly, yeah, yeah.

1441
01:32:22,479 --> 01:32:25,680
Speaker 1: The force, the force the way right.

1442
01:32:26,239 --> 01:32:28,840
Speaker 3: It's the rose cross, right, even the symbolism of it

1443
01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:33,279
that the rose is the soul, the cross is the body.

1444
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:36,239
But you could also see it as the cross, you know,

1445
01:32:36,359 --> 01:32:43,159
Jesus on the cross is the consciousness trapped in the body,

1446
01:32:43,199 --> 01:32:48,159
the four dimension you know, the north, southwest, east, and

1447
01:32:48,359 --> 01:32:53,680
the rose is the spiritual blessing, the divine quality. So

1448
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:56,640
we were a combination of the divine and the material.

1449
01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:01,439
So the material side is tructive and kind of dumb

1450
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:07,159
and and and inquisitive and filled with urgency and but

1451
01:33:07,199 --> 01:33:09,960
the divine side is outside of time itself.

1452
01:33:12,399 --> 01:33:15,680
Speaker 2: And uh something interesting, right, speaking of the rose and

1453
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:18,720
the cross, Michael Meyer was actually the first or mayor

1454
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:23,479
was actually the first person to give a Christmas card

1455
01:33:23,680 --> 01:33:26,159
to James the car really yeah, and it's got it's

1456
01:33:26,159 --> 01:33:28,439
actually got a rose on It's really interesting, right because

1457
01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:29,840
we're talking about the rose and it just made me

1458
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:30,239
think of that.

1459
01:33:30,319 --> 01:33:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me shore my screen here, because it's.

1460
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:37,239
Speaker 2: Got a rose on it. And allegedly it was the

1461
01:33:37,279 --> 01:33:41,359
first ever so here it is. It was the first

1462
01:33:41,439 --> 01:33:46,960
ever Christmas card that King King James got for Chris.

1463
01:33:47,159 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 3: Wow, that is so cool. I did not know about that.

1464
01:33:50,079 --> 01:33:53,520
Speaker 2: Yea so fun, fun little fact there that thatchem is there.

1465
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:55,560
Speaker 3: Just look at that. That is so cool.

1466
01:33:56,039 --> 01:33:59,119
Speaker 2: Gave the first Christmas card and then Christmas cards weren't

1467
01:33:59,119 --> 01:34:00,359
invented until way ter on.

1468
01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:03,119
Speaker 3: But yeah, you know here he is awesome.

1469
01:34:03,319 --> 01:34:08,279
Speaker 2: Kind of I'm not a Rosicrucion right right, And James like, no,

1470
01:34:08,399 --> 01:34:10,159
you're not. This kind of looks like a cross though.

1471
01:34:10,199 --> 01:34:15,039
But Ronnie, where do you see Would you agree with

1472
01:34:15,079 --> 01:34:19,199
me that maybe there's still this I don't want to

1473
01:34:19,199 --> 01:34:21,760
call it a brotherhood, but it seems like a lot

1474
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:24,119
of the things that you talked about are going on today.

1475
01:34:24,159 --> 01:34:29,840
Like we have a universal database that intellectuals are able

1476
01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:32,560
to tap into and share knowledge. I mean, the Internet

1477
01:34:32,600 --> 01:34:36,880
itself was essentially invented for that, for the sharing of

1478
01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:41,880
knowledge between scientists. Invisible college, right, the invisible college. So

1479
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:45,279
would you say that the Roscicruciers are still going strong

1480
01:34:45,399 --> 01:34:46,159
till this day?

1481
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:50,439
Speaker 3: Well, I certainly think their ideas. I mean, it's amazing

1482
01:34:50,520 --> 01:34:54,399
how much of what they wanted to have happened happened

1483
01:34:55,399 --> 01:34:58,399
in terms of the adoption of science and the way

1484
01:34:58,399 --> 01:35:00,880
that the invisible College which was on wheels and is

1485
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:04,359
everywhere but nowhere, right, that's I mean, it's the Internet,

1486
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:07,880
and that there was also the book in which contained

1487
01:35:08,079 --> 01:35:11,680
all knowledge of everything in the world, right, And that's

1488
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:16,279
what we're trying to do with AI. And so yes,

1489
01:35:16,319 --> 01:35:19,079
I think Rosicruci ideas continue to be influential, and I

1490
01:35:19,119 --> 01:35:21,600
think that that people continue to try to live up

1491
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:25,199
to them in good and bad ways. I think that

1492
01:35:25,239 --> 01:35:28,000
there there are people who are elitists who are drawn

1493
01:35:28,079 --> 01:35:35,279
to Rosicruci. The atmosphere of it, if you will, the

1494
01:35:35,720 --> 01:35:39,239
sense of these these religious elites, whether they be invisible

1495
01:35:39,319 --> 01:35:44,079
masters or or they be kind of this political, uh

1496
01:35:44,479 --> 01:35:47,920
spiritually motivated elite that that wants, as you said, a

1497
01:35:47,960 --> 01:35:52,119
new world order, a universal reformation according to their idea

1498
01:35:52,159 --> 01:35:55,000
of it, which I don't really think is the Rosicruci

1499
01:35:55,079 --> 01:35:57,880
you know, the Rosicrucian thing kind of hearkens back to

1500
01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:01,000
the orific thing about you're serving God. You know, this

1501
01:36:01,159 --> 01:36:04,319
isn't you know, for you're a greater glory. This is

1502
01:36:05,199 --> 01:36:08,840
for the greater glory of humanity and of the divine,

1503
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:12,760
and I think there are good people. I mean I've met,

1504
01:36:13,199 --> 01:36:17,520
of course, a number of people who are practicing Rosicrucians

1505
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:21,359
from one of the public orders that still exists, like

1506
01:36:21,479 --> 01:36:23,960
Max Heindels, and they tend to be great people. I mean,

1507
01:36:24,039 --> 01:36:30,479
I really lovely people, and so certainly they are very

1508
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:36,319
motivated by the rosicruci ideals. And I think there are

1509
01:36:36,359 --> 01:36:38,840
probably people who in fact, I know of people who

1510
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:43,000
are scholars and who are trying to understand the uh,

1511
01:36:44,119 --> 01:36:46,560
you know, what it really means to be a Rosicrucian

1512
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:51,439
and to try to embody that in their lives. But

1513
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:55,880
I think that ultimately I always talk about, you know,

1514
01:36:56,319 --> 01:36:59,439
we're in this unique moment in history now where we

1515
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:04,760
have access to almost all the spiritual knowledge, the systems

1516
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:11,279
of transcendence of history, the ones that have survived. Think

1517
01:37:11,319 --> 01:37:16,239
of them as ladders, and we have some of us

1518
01:37:16,239 --> 01:37:18,680
have collected, you know, who are really into this stuff,

1519
01:37:18,720 --> 01:37:21,720
like yourself or me, have collected dozens or even hundreds

1520
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:25,079
of ladders. We get excited, we go, oh my god,

1521
01:37:25,079 --> 01:37:26,880
there's another one, you know, and we compare them to

1522
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:30,000
the other ladders. And there's whole industries of people that

1523
01:37:30,079 --> 01:37:34,479
do nothing but compare ladders or condemn one ladder for

1524
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:36,840
not being as good as another ladder, or that ladder

1525
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:39,760
has too many steps in that one, but nobody's climbing

1526
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:44,399
the freaking ladders. So, you know, Max Heindel's approach of

1527
01:37:44,479 --> 01:37:50,159
Rescrutionism may not have been recognizable by Andre, but it's

1528
01:37:50,199 --> 01:37:54,479
still producing good people who are who feel good about life,

1529
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:57,840
and who have faith in the harmony of the world

1530
01:37:57,960 --> 01:38:00,800
and as many Hall said, and the rational soul of

1531
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:05,359
the world. And so I think from that point of view,

1532
01:38:05,359 --> 01:38:08,880
there's no doubt that the Rosicrucian impulse continues out there.

1533
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:12,479
And it's I think it's ironic that it does seem

1534
01:38:12,479 --> 01:38:15,319
that some people will like draw a line at rosicrution,

1535
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:16,800
like there's a lot of people who are just say,

1536
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:20,520
the Masons are out, you know, like that is the evil.

1537
01:38:20,880 --> 01:38:22,960
The Rosicrucians are sort of as gray area. They're not

1538
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:27,359
as well known and people, and yet they do constantly appear,

1539
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:30,800
just like the Bavarian Illuminati, right, who were nothing like

1540
01:38:30,880 --> 01:38:34,039
what their reputation is. I mean, they were essentially a

1541
01:38:34,079 --> 01:38:38,319
mystical quasi political order who again trying to create some

1542
01:38:38,399 --> 01:38:42,119
form of universal reformation from their viewpoint, but not in

1543
01:38:42,159 --> 01:38:45,479
the sense of you know, dictatorship and and you know,

1544
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:54,239
forced order. But we cannot underestimate Catholic propaganda. Okay, That's

1545
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:58,520
that's one thing about the Rosicrucians. I also have to say,

1546
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:00,560
I think that we saw the power of a Catholic

1547
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:05,039
church in the last election. And they they are big

1548
01:39:05,159 --> 01:39:07,640
and rich and powerful, and they have written a lot

1549
01:39:07,680 --> 01:39:12,159
of history and they have demonized everybody that is not

1550
01:39:12,439 --> 01:39:15,840
them for the most part, even though there were popes

1551
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:19,439
that were into alchemy and astrology and even though you're wealthy,

1552
01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:23,920
Persianism not a good look. Yeah. So instead of joining

1553
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:26,840
the human race and sharing all that amazing stuff, they

1554
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:30,159
have packed away in the basement, you know, they sit

1555
01:39:30,239 --> 01:39:32,399
on top of it like a big spider or a

1556
01:39:32,399 --> 01:39:37,079
Tolkien dragon, and they don't share it. And they continue

1557
01:39:37,119 --> 01:39:40,720
to try to legislate. And I would say that they

1558
01:39:40,720 --> 01:39:44,760
were a significant portion of how women lost the right

1559
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:49,960
to choice in America, and they want to impose to

1560
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:54,800
some degree this dominionist concept. And the evangelicals are right

1561
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:57,119
in there with them, and they get it. And so

1562
01:39:57,279 --> 01:39:59,399
these people have worked for a long time to come

1563
01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:03,399
up with story about how the Freemasons eat babies and

1564
01:40:03,439 --> 01:40:06,279
they you know, they're all pedophiles, and the Rescrutions and

1565
01:40:06,319 --> 01:40:08,680
the Jews, and I mean, it's anybody that you're fighting.

1566
01:40:09,119 --> 01:40:11,319
This is an old tactic. You know. Rome used to

1567
01:40:11,359 --> 01:40:13,239
do that. I mean, you know, Rome used to always

1568
01:40:13,279 --> 01:40:15,800
say whoever they were fighting, they were you know, eating

1569
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:21,479
babies and things. Yeah, exactly. So that's something that one

1570
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:24,640
of the things that I think is exciting about the

1571
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:29,039
rosicrutionis historically is that that they kind of rose up

1572
01:40:29,079 --> 01:40:32,640
and challenged that, and they did it in a way

1573
01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:36,720
where they said, no, you know, science, nature doing things

1574
01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:39,760
for the right reason. God wants us to discover ways

1575
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:44,119
to live better lives, and we shouldn't be living in

1576
01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:48,600
abject poverty, and we shouldn't be suffering from plagues, and

1577
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,680
all the answers to these problems are there if we'll

1578
01:40:51,720 --> 01:40:54,600
just stop fucking around with the things that we think

1579
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:57,840
are important and really get in tune with inspiration and

1580
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:02,880
go about making this better world. That impulse, you know,

1581
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:06,760
I think is something that is not unique to Rosicrucianism,

1582
01:41:07,319 --> 01:41:10,319
but in Western esotericism. I think it's hard to find

1583
01:41:11,199 --> 01:41:17,479
a big movement like that that so clearly dedicates itself

1584
01:41:17,720 --> 01:41:22,079
to that idea of you know, this this reformation of

1585
01:41:22,119 --> 01:41:25,640
the world, not based on what you know, the law

1586
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:28,199
of God says this the way I interpret it, you

1587
01:41:28,359 --> 01:41:36,600
have to do it, but based on trial and error, experimentation, intuition, tradition,

1588
01:41:37,359 --> 01:41:42,279
handing down these ideas. And the other thing I'd mentioned,

1589
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:46,399
as I mentioned handing down the ideas, is that part

1590
01:41:46,399 --> 01:41:48,000
of the reason we don't know what's going on here

1591
01:41:48,039 --> 01:41:51,279
is we don't know that there wasn't some form of Rosicrucianism,

1592
01:41:51,359 --> 01:41:54,479
maybe calling itself something else, that existed for a long time,

1593
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:58,920
because it just went from student from teacher to student. So,

1594
01:41:59,079 --> 01:42:01,479
for example, I happened to be lucky to live at

1595
01:42:01,479 --> 01:42:04,760
a time when Manly Hall had the PRS and he

1596
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:06,600
could talk to everybody about this stuff.

1597
01:42:06,720 --> 01:42:09,640
Speaker 2: He was influenced by the Rosicrucian right though the first

1598
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:11,960
very much Yeah, ary a lot from what I was

1599
01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:13,399
reading in your book, you know.

1600
01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:17,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much so, and so he you know, if

1601
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:21,079
we had lived, you know, two hundred years earlier, three

1602
01:42:21,119 --> 01:42:24,319
hundred years earlier, he might have had to have taught

1603
01:42:24,359 --> 01:42:29,680
me in private and sworn me to secrecy. So we

1604
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,359
don't know about those traditions because they don't leave records.

1605
01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:39,399
And you see, so for example, Lewis Spencer Lewis of

1606
01:42:39,439 --> 01:42:41,880
one of the founders of one of the other Rosicrucian

1607
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:46,920
public schools in modern times. He believed that Rosicrucians came

1608
01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:55,079
to California, to the Monterey area before the FAMA and

1609
01:42:55,119 --> 01:42:58,720
the other manifestos, that there were already Rosicrucians, and they'd

1610
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:04,359
already infiltrated the Catholic Church, and they'd infiltrated the Spanish

1611
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:09,439
Conquista doors, and that they came to America with them

1612
01:43:09,720 --> 01:43:13,479
to establish some kind of beginning on the West coast.

1613
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:17,479
Now there's no solid proof of any of that. It's

1614
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:20,800
really only found in Lewis and he claimed to have

1615
01:43:20,840 --> 01:43:24,720
found some roses, some crosses with carved roses. But that's

1616
01:43:24,760 --> 01:43:27,479
the rose of Sharon, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean

1617
01:43:28,000 --> 01:43:30,600
that it's Rosicrucian. That's one of the problems. I mean,

1618
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:33,720
people go rosicrution crazy, and you know that everything looks

1619
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:36,000
rosic it's got a rose on it's rosicrution, you know,

1620
01:43:37,359 --> 01:43:43,319
And so I think that that it's it takes us

1621
01:43:43,319 --> 01:43:47,159
back to Wickenstein ultimately right, like what do words mean?

1622
01:43:48,039 --> 01:43:51,840
That when you abstract a word from what it's really

1623
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:55,439
pointing to, then the mind gets tricked into all kinds

1624
01:43:55,479 --> 01:43:59,199
of weird activity. So he used the example of time, right,

1625
01:43:59,279 --> 01:44:01,880
That is, you don't have to explain time when you

1626
01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:07,159
go it's three o'clock, But when you start talking about time,

1627
01:44:08,640 --> 01:44:13,239
what is time? That now you've got a playground for

1628
01:44:13,279 --> 01:44:17,079
all kinds of stuff to happen. And that is what

1629
01:44:17,159 --> 01:44:21,840
Rosicrucianism is. It's a playground for the imagination. But it's

1630
01:44:21,880 --> 01:44:23,640
a nice one, I think, you know, Like I said,

1631
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:26,000
most of the people I've met involved. I've met a

1632
01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,159
few people who were kind of, you know, snooty and

1633
01:44:28,199 --> 01:44:30,800
stuff they were drawing to that that's okay, you know,

1634
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:34,159
but but I've met some wonderful people who were inspired

1635
01:44:34,159 --> 01:44:35,279
by ros Crucianism.

1636
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:37,239
Speaker 1: I love it, Ronnie.

1637
01:44:37,399 --> 01:44:40,720
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I know

1638
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:43,359
less now than I did when we first started. Not good,

1639
01:44:43,399 --> 01:44:46,439
because it's it's I'm still it's gonna take me a

1640
01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:49,079
while to process it. But I love being able to

1641
01:44:49,199 --> 01:44:52,439
want when I break something down, have a chronological order

1642
01:44:52,520 --> 01:44:56,720
of the events and how it goes. And I always

1643
01:44:56,720 --> 01:45:00,279
thought that Rosicrucianism, and it could very well be was

1644
01:45:00,319 --> 01:45:03,239
a troll. You know, we mentioned John Veayer earlier in

1645
01:45:03,319 --> 01:45:06,560
the Pseudo Monarchia and a Grippa kind of sort of

1646
01:45:06,560 --> 01:45:08,119
putting out stuff hey as a joke.

1647
01:45:08,560 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 1: Crowley did that as well.

1648
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:12,479
Speaker 2: You know, here's a joke to kind of shock people

1649
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:14,159
and things like that, and then we have the guy

1650
01:45:14,159 --> 01:45:16,800
who wrote the stuff was like, actually, no, no, wait a minute,

1651
01:45:17,239 --> 01:45:18,560
it was a joke, was it.

1652
01:45:18,800 --> 01:45:21,680
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I think there's a lot of truth

1653
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:24,479
in that. Like I think they're saying these days in

1654
01:45:24,520 --> 01:45:27,560
academia that when you look at the manifestos that they

1655
01:45:27,920 --> 01:45:33,199
they've been compared to science fiction, they've been compared to surrealism.

1656
01:45:33,319 --> 01:45:37,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the chemical wedding is psychedelic. It's so bizarre,

1657
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:38,239
and it's.

1658
01:45:38,119 --> 01:45:39,760
Speaker 3: Got jokes in it, you know. I mean, you know,

1659
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:41,800
the naked girl going, hey, wouldn't be you know, the

1660
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:43,880
old man wouldn't be so oppressed if he got laid,

1661
01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:45,439
you know, all that kind of so, I mean, it

1662
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:49,920
really reminds me of college student kind of literature because

1663
01:45:50,039 --> 01:45:55,239
that combination of bodiness reality but also radical, you know,

1664
01:45:55,479 --> 01:45:58,960
idealism and fuck the pope and all the authority figures.

1665
01:45:59,039 --> 01:46:02,399
You know, it's it just fits perfectly in that it's

1666
01:46:02,640 --> 01:46:04,560
it's rock and roll, you know what I mean. It's

1667
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:08,199
like this weird like kind of rebellion against the status quo?

1668
01:46:08,960 --> 01:46:11,439
Who made you? You know, Andre, who the hell are you

1669
01:46:12,119 --> 01:46:14,880
to stand up and say that the pope is no good?

1670
01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:17,760
And that you know that's the essence is that rebellion, right,

1671
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:22,279
that Rosicrucian is. It's saying, we don't believe that you

1672
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:25,239
have a monopoly on God.

1673
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:27,760
Speaker 2: It's a brokered experience. And I've always said that that's

1674
01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:30,680
why I believe in God. I don't believe in religion

1675
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:34,199
because it is a brokered experience and they just want

1676
01:46:34,199 --> 01:46:35,680
to tell you what to do, how to do it.

1677
01:46:36,119 --> 01:46:37,239
Speaker 1: And I don't think it should be like that.

1678
01:46:37,279 --> 01:46:40,560
Speaker 2: I think it should be again the nosis that you

1679
01:46:40,680 --> 01:46:43,560
find on your own. How you're saying, in order for

1680
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:45,880
us to bring forth change, you have to change yourself.

1681
01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:49,199
You can't force change upon other people, because it's just

1682
01:46:49,319 --> 01:46:53,840
it's it's never gone well throughout history. It's been repeated

1683
01:46:53,880 --> 01:46:55,880
over and over again when they try to force something

1684
01:46:55,920 --> 01:47:00,000
on people, and it's like back up and let it happen.

1685
01:47:00,279 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 1: But you need to maintain order as well. Right, I'm

1686
01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:03,720
not saying it's going to be.

1687
01:47:03,760 --> 01:47:08,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a balance any type. But extremism from either

1688
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:12,840
side only invokes extremism from the other side. Yes, and

1689
01:47:12,920 --> 01:47:17,439
you be pushed too hard before people are ready. You're

1690
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:19,359
too arrogant in your approach to how you want to

1691
01:47:19,439 --> 01:47:24,039
change society, and you will invoke the opposite reaction. History

1692
01:47:24,079 --> 01:47:28,720
shows us that so in the middle ground isn't necessarily

1693
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:31,840
good either, because then sometimes things don't get addressed that

1694
01:47:32,039 --> 01:47:35,199
have to be because nobody wants to rock the boat.

1695
01:47:35,319 --> 01:47:39,680
You know, they're trying to just keep everything nice and pleasant,

1696
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:42,119
and sometimes you can't be pleasant and as you have

1697
01:47:42,159 --> 01:47:47,159
to take drastic actions. So it's really the human predicament

1698
01:47:47,359 --> 01:47:51,079
of trying to live together, to find a way that

1699
01:47:51,119 --> 01:47:53,960
we can all respect each other and not be so

1700
01:47:54,119 --> 01:47:57,600
dismissive of each other. And unfortunately, right now we're at

1701
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:02,520
a time where we have this you know, mania almost

1702
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:03,760
of dismissing each other.

1703
01:48:04,880 --> 01:48:07,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the way I see it too, Ronnie.

1704
01:48:08,159 --> 01:48:10,479
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for talking to I want to say,

1705
01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:13,199
that's a sick dresser behind Is that a dresser behind you.

1706
01:48:13,239 --> 01:48:15,119
Speaker 1: Man, the thing looks awesome. What is that?

1707
01:48:15,359 --> 01:48:16,960
Speaker 3: I don't know what to call that. It's a piece

1708
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:22,079
of Tibetan furniture, but it's like the sort of a

1709
01:48:22,159 --> 01:48:24,279
chest of drawers, but you know, not really.

1710
01:48:24,600 --> 01:48:25,560
Speaker 1: It looks gnarly.

1711
01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:28,399
Speaker 2: Man, it looks like it looks Egyptian almost in a

1712
01:48:29,279 --> 01:48:31,399
sort of way. I want to share a synchronicity that happened,

1713
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:34,760
I mean recently. You know, we were talking about the

1714
01:48:34,840 --> 01:48:36,800
hymns earlier and I have that book here somewhere.

1715
01:48:37,399 --> 01:48:39,319
Speaker 1: Uh the I did.

1716
01:48:39,199 --> 01:48:45,640
Speaker 2: A a tarot pull when I was on I got

1717
01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:49,520
invited to a podcast they call it Pigos Esoteric Hour.

1718
01:48:50,119 --> 01:48:51,840
It was a name shout out to those guys and

1719
01:48:52,439 --> 01:48:53,720
they live in California.

1720
01:48:54,000 --> 01:48:56,279
Speaker 1: I think they I think you're on their show. I

1721
01:48:56,279 --> 01:48:58,159
think they Yeah, I think you're on their show.

1722
01:48:58,319 --> 01:49:02,880
Speaker 3: Sounded familiar yea to others, they Oh, yeah, they're great.

1723
01:49:02,920 --> 01:49:03,520
I know those guys.

1724
01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:07,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've been to the PRS and everything, and you

1725
01:49:07,119 --> 01:49:08,600
know they were I think one of them was a

1726
01:49:08,640 --> 01:49:11,039
rescruition or something or other at the M.

1727
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:11,760
Speaker 1: A M r C.

1728
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:15,960
Speaker 2: And then I did a terrot pull on air and

1729
01:49:16,039 --> 01:49:19,399
it was the reprint of the of the Augustus nap

1730
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:23,000
or outside the Naphul deck, and I did a poll

1731
01:49:23,039 --> 01:49:23,479
and he was.

1732
01:49:23,520 --> 01:49:25,319
Speaker 1: Kind of reading me, like, I'm like, hey, I pulled

1733
01:49:25,319 --> 01:49:27,760
this card, you know, what does it mean?

1734
01:49:27,840 --> 01:49:29,479
Speaker 2: He was explaining it to me, and it was kind

1735
01:49:29,479 --> 01:49:30,920
of aligning with my life at the time.

1736
01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:33,159
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, that's kind of weird. Whatever, who cares.

1737
01:49:33,239 --> 01:49:35,000
I don't. I don't really believe in this stuff.

1738
01:49:35,239 --> 01:49:38,000
Speaker 2: So I did, I think a four card pull, and

1739
01:49:38,039 --> 01:49:40,439
on the when I went to go pull the fourth card,

1740
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:44,399
He's like, well, you know you, in order for it

1741
01:49:44,439 --> 01:49:48,239
to fit, you'd have to pull the fool right, And

1742
01:49:48,319 --> 01:49:52,039
I'm like, I identify with the Fool. That's my favorite card,

1743
01:49:52,159 --> 01:49:56,359
especially in that particular deck, because you know, the Fool

1744
01:49:56,439 --> 01:49:58,840
is standing at the threshold, he's looking out into the

1745
01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:01,920
abyss right with his companion. You know, he's like this

1746
01:50:01,920 --> 01:50:04,760
this ready to take on reality in some sort of way.

1747
01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:06,520
And I was like, and I caught this all on

1748
01:50:06,560 --> 01:50:09,000
an episode. I was like, how crazy would it be?

1749
01:50:09,039 --> 01:50:12,520
Of The next card I pulled was the fool Boom.

1750
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:17,079
I pulled the Fool live, you know, essentially on a recording,

1751
01:50:17,439 --> 01:50:20,439
and I was like that it freaked me out wrong.

1752
01:50:20,560 --> 01:50:24,000
I was like, I'm putting these away. I'm never touching

1753
01:50:24,000 --> 01:50:25,880
these because I was literally talking about how I don't

1754
01:50:25,960 --> 01:50:26,840
believe in.

1755
01:50:26,720 --> 01:50:29,520
Speaker 1: That sort of stuff, and he's like, I told you.

1756
01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:31,600
Speaker 2: I mean, He's like, that's the way it works, and

1757
01:50:31,640 --> 01:50:36,159
I'm like, man, reality is a lot stranger than than

1758
01:50:36,239 --> 01:50:38,279
we've been more magical.

1759
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:42,439
Speaker 3: You know, people dismiss magical thinking and such, and for

1760
01:50:42,520 --> 01:50:46,920
good reason, but there is I've experienced way too much

1761
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:50,439
of that stuff. I mean, things that are just inexplicable

1762
01:50:50,720 --> 01:50:53,680
and they show you that something's going on. It's not

1763
01:50:53,960 --> 01:50:54,920
the everyday world.

1764
01:50:55,079 --> 01:50:56,079
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah.

1765
01:50:56,159 --> 01:50:59,439
Speaker 2: It bleeds through every now and again, and I'm here

1766
01:50:59,479 --> 01:51:00,560
for it.

1767
01:51:00,680 --> 01:51:03,960
Speaker 1: Ronnie one more time. Do you have a website or

1768
01:51:04,039 --> 01:51:05,960
do you have anywhere you want to direct the people link.

1769
01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:10,239
Speaker 3: I have a YouTube channel just Ronnie Pontiac that has

1770
01:51:10,960 --> 01:51:12,840
a lot of different kind of content on it. It's

1771
01:51:12,840 --> 01:51:16,439
also there's over one hundred interviews now, so there there's

1772
01:51:16,600 --> 01:51:22,800
playlists for that on different topics. And I'm on Instagram, Facebook, threads,

1773
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:27,560
blue Sky, all the stuff. I don't even know, but

1774
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:30,479
but I'm on social media. Find me as Ronnie Pontiac.

1775
01:51:31,720 --> 01:51:34,199
I'm happy to answer questions.

1776
01:51:33,920 --> 01:51:36,039
Speaker 2: Get a link tree, Ronnie, so that way, whenever you

1777
01:51:36,079 --> 01:51:38,119
do a show, you just post a link tree.

1778
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:41,600
Speaker 3: I have one, actually, but I never updated once I

1779
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:43,800
got up into that one hundred different interviews thing. I

1780
01:51:43,880 --> 01:51:46,239
was just I used to update each once. I wanted

1781
01:51:46,239 --> 01:51:48,479
each podcast to get you know, and then I realized

1782
01:51:48,479 --> 01:51:50,680
that this isn't going to happen. Yeah, and now I've

1783
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:54,680
got two books to finish this year. So I was like, yeah,

1784
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:56,960
it's good, well running stuff out there.

1785
01:51:57,199 --> 01:51:59,319
Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming on talking to me. Let's do

1786
01:51:59,399 --> 01:52:00,319
this sooner than later.

1787
01:52:00,359 --> 01:52:02,640
Speaker 3: Let's start wait two years.

1788
01:52:02,640 --> 01:52:04,199
Speaker 1: And uh, let's stay in touch.

1789
01:52:04,359 --> 01:52:06,720
Speaker 2: And thank you so much for talking to us today

1790
01:52:06,760 --> 01:52:08,640
about this very fascinating topic.

1791
01:52:09,119 --> 01:52:10,960
Speaker 1: And I look forward to our next episode.

1792
01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:13,760
Speaker 2: Everyone make sure to follow the show on social media

1793
01:52:13,840 --> 01:52:15,119
at the Hoe on one podcast.

1794
01:52:15,119 --> 01:52:17,039
Speaker 1: Make sure to check out Ronnie. Check out his books.

1795
01:52:17,039 --> 01:52:20,439
Speaker 2: He's already got three books working on more right, so

1796
01:52:20,600 --> 01:52:23,079
make sure to check that out links down in the description.

1797
01:52:23,159 --> 01:52:25,880
As always, everyone take care of each other and I'll

1798
01:52:25,880 --> 01:52:27,399
catch you on the next one.

1799
01:52:27,439 --> 01:52:27,880
Speaker 1: Goodbye.

1800
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 2: No