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Speaker 1: Now PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller
Speaker 1: Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago. This week on the
Speaker 1: flagship Jasonpowfrolprogrestling dot Net joined me and we talked about
Speaker 1: possible transformative changes in WWB network and pay per views
Speaker 1: also drew McIntire's rising stock, aw's quality control issues comparing
Speaker 1: the star power of AW two NXT. How would NXT
Speaker 1: playing in bigger arenas work, fan reaction, complicating Hangman Page's
Speaker 1: heel turn xfl anticipation, Roh's twenty twenty changes, and much
Speaker 1: more so. Let's get to it. This originally dropped on
Speaker 1: February sixth, twenty twenty, and it is today's Wade Keller
Speaker 1: Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago Flagship flashback for Wednesday,
Speaker 1: February fifth, twenty twenty five. Less than one million Jason
Speaker 1: less than one million United States subscribers. What are the
Speaker 1: odds that that would be paired with the largest amount
Speaker 1: of revenue for WWE and any financial statement? Those two
Speaker 1: things seem to run contrary to each other, and I
Speaker 1: went to guested it when the network launched that those
Speaker 1: two things would go together.
Speaker 2: But here we are, you know, yeah, like it would
Speaker 2: not have been easy to predict, But when you just
Speaker 2: kind of see the way things have unfolded, I guess
Speaker 2: I can't say I'm surprised by this, you know, I
Speaker 2: do think as much as like the product quality has
Speaker 2: been an issue for WWE, I do think when it
Speaker 2: comes to the network subscriber count, but we also I mean,
Speaker 2: there's so many factors. I've just heard so many. Like
Speaker 2: one popular theory is that, oh, it's NXT being moved
Speaker 2: to USA network and I don't subscribe to that.
Speaker 3: I think it's a contributing factor.
Speaker 2: But I do think it's a little bit of that,
Speaker 2: a very small amount of that, a little bit of
Speaker 2: the product quality, and by and large, just all the
Speaker 2: streaming competition that has emerged since WWE Network launched.
Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of it. I think
Speaker 1: not only that, but you'll notice there's TV commercials now.
Speaker 1: I know on my credit card apps, it will tell
Speaker 1: you you have this much money going to subscription services
Speaker 1: this month, and they're running TV commercials going, let us
Speaker 1: help you cancel your streaming services you're not using, and
Speaker 1: I mean they are. You know, that's like a selling
Speaker 1: point now, is let us help you manage things that
Speaker 1: you're paying for that you're not using. And there's so
Speaker 1: much content on the air right now, you know, with
Speaker 1: Ross SmackDown, NXT plus ae W and then all these
Speaker 1: other satellite thinks for YouTube and other you know, channels
Speaker 1: with with impact, and so you have that happening and
Speaker 1: there's a saturation level being reached with a lot of
Speaker 1: fans who I it makes sense some people would be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna watch aw and I'm going
Speaker 1: to order their pay per views, you know, two three
Speaker 1: times a year when when you know when they're when
Speaker 1: they're around, I'll decide if I want to. And that's
Speaker 1: my one hundred twenty dollars WWE network budget, and it's
Speaker 1: by definition, I know people who made that choice, you know,
Speaker 1: so I know it's more than one. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's twenty thousand or two hundred thousand people who
Speaker 1: have made that decision or a mulling it over, But
Speaker 1: it makes sense that some people would say, this is
Speaker 1: why I can justify spending on watching wrestling on television.
Speaker 1: And there's so much WWE, and now I can watch
Speaker 1: n XT without the network. So I think it's a
Speaker 1: combination of factors along with yeah, I talked with my
Speaker 1: family and we need Disney Plus and we have to
Speaker 1: get Apple TV now for that series, and so I
Speaker 1: had to make a cutback, and I watched so much
Speaker 1: wrestling was hard for me to justify to my family
Speaker 1: that I'm watching WOB network.
Speaker 3: Two.
Speaker 1: I think it's a confluence of all those.
Speaker 3: And let's throw in one more.
Speaker 2: When you look at the overall count, this is not
Speaker 2: new people just learning about the network and signing up
Speaker 2: for the first time. This is people who figured out
Speaker 2: that WWE is desperate to inflate their number and we'll
Speaker 2: give them a deal of the lifetime to stick around.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I guess some of that works into the paid number,
Speaker 2: but still, I just don't believe that they're finding all
Speaker 2: these people that are signing up for the first time.
Speaker 3: I think they're finding deals.
Speaker 2: I think they're you know it just I think there's
Speaker 2: people signing up under different email accounts to take advantage
Speaker 2: of free offers and things like that. Because I think
Speaker 2: their conversion rate, which is something that's not talked about
Speaker 2: because of the obvious it would be I mean, I
Speaker 2: think they'd be mocked for all the new people they
Speaker 2: have sampling the network that never sign up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the numbers are the way that they frame the
Speaker 1: numbers and the lack of transparency on how many are
Speaker 1: repeat customers and how many are how are they even
Speaker 1: tracking how many people sign up with a different email
Speaker 1: and keep cycling themselves in seasonally. That data just isn't
Speaker 1: as clear. They aren't mining that, and it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: like the Financial press is as concerned with that as
Speaker 1: I would be. I would like to know that, and
Speaker 1: we're not getting the point in questions that gets that
Speaker 1: data extracted. Are you frustrated when you listen to the
Speaker 1: Q and A with n sick Man and whoever the
Speaker 1: executives aren't joining him. That has switched this week? Are
Speaker 1: you frustrated by the questions that could ask? Are the
Speaker 1: ones that don't get asked?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: Every time?
Speaker 2: And this time I thought, man, there's so much going on,
Speaker 2: this is going to be fascinating. And they, I mean,
Speaker 2: there were some good questions, but my god, are they
Speaker 2: obsessed with the Indian and Middle East television deals? I
Speaker 2: get asking about it. It is a factor, but figure
Speaker 2: it out. Once they give you their prepared answer, you're
Speaker 2: not getting more out of them. And they just kept
Speaker 2: asking in different ways the same question and would get
Speaker 2: the same answer over and over again. Same with the XFL. Now,
Speaker 2: I mean, that is something that I think Vince McMahon
Speaker 2: should be very concerned with the perception that this is
Speaker 2: not separate from WWE. There was a one caller said, Hey,
Speaker 2: there's people interested in your stock, but there's a couple
Speaker 2: of main things that are concerning them, and the XFL
Speaker 2: is one of them. And I mean there's only, I guess,
Speaker 2: so many ways Vince can say that operated separately, but
Speaker 2: there's a real perception issue out there that people don't
Speaker 2: buy that, especially when they're seeing Vince McMahon's first press
Speaker 2: conference was at a WWE studio. There's WWE email account
Speaker 2: sending out XFL blurbs, and so even if it is
Speaker 2: completely financially independently separate, there's still reasons for people to
Speaker 2: be skeptical of that. And I think, you know, he
Speaker 2: sent out the message as best he could well as
Speaker 2: well as he was going to, but it's still there.
Speaker 2: I don't think, you know, not every person who's afraid
Speaker 2: of the XFL costing them WWE stock money is listening
Speaker 2: to this call.
Speaker 1: It's remarkable how little XFL hype there has been through WWE,
Speaker 1: television and otherwise. I mean, there's there's connections there. I
Speaker 1: can understand people being concerned if you're the head coach
Speaker 1: of an NFL team, and suddenly you're also directing a
Speaker 1: movie during the NFL season. People are going to be like,
Speaker 1: wait a second, you know, are we supposed to trust
Speaker 1: your assistance or are you video conference? Like how are
Speaker 1: you doing both things at once? They can be separate.
Speaker 1: You can say, well, the NFL team has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with this blockbuster movie that I'm the director of,
Speaker 1: but clearly you know your time is split. And Vince
Speaker 1: has always been a workaholic, so it's not like, oh,
Speaker 1: I had you know him announced, So I've reduced my
Speaker 1: hours of b to twenty hours a week the last
Speaker 1: five years, So I'm just putting in twenty thirty hours
Speaker 1: of the XFL. But no one will notice. So of
Speaker 1: course he can say they're separate entities, but it's him.
Speaker 1: He sells himself more than ever with the departure of
Speaker 1: George Barrows from Michelle Wilson as the guy you know
Speaker 1: who holds us all together. So it's a very reasonable
Speaker 1: question to ask, and it's not a particularly reasonable answer
Speaker 1: to say their separate entities except for the pure financial
Speaker 1: aspect of it, which is, if the XFL bombs, it
Speaker 1: won't affect the bottom line of WWE. Finally, it won't
Speaker 1: affect wly to be financials. But if Vince is WWE
Speaker 1: and Vince is involved in the XFL, then that's still
Speaker 1: a fair question and I'm not sure he's getting that
Speaker 1: aspect of people's concern.
Speaker 2: He was asked about his workload, I mean, because they
Speaker 2: didn't really tie in the XFL so much. It's just
Speaker 2: with Michelle Wilson and George Barrios no longer being with
Speaker 2: the company, and he went total Vince McMahon mode on it.
Speaker 2: I have broad shoulders, I can handle a lot, that
Speaker 2: was his answer. I mean there, yes, they're plugging the
Speaker 2: idea that they're going to find they're going to recruit
Speaker 2: somebody or I guess do something from within, but most
Speaker 2: likely bring somebody in from the outside. And another only
Speaker 2: Vince moment was when he asked who wouldn't want to
Speaker 2: work for WWE, it's exciting.
Speaker 1: What what is the number one surprise from the financials
Speaker 1: today for you or the conference call?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the big one is the caret that
Speaker 2: he dangled in front of everyone, which is WWE network
Speaker 2: as we know it may not exist, it may go
Speaker 2: away entirely.
Speaker 3: It could.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing is what is this deal?
Speaker 2: And I mean he's talking about how it could be
Speaker 2: done in the first quarter, and naturally he's going to
Speaker 2: be non COMMITALSS to what this is. And Jake Barnett
Speaker 2: and I spent a lot of time talking about this
Speaker 2: and dot neant weekly and just some of the various
Speaker 2: approaches they could take with this. It could be all
Speaker 2: of ww network moves to another streaming service, you know.
Speaker 2: The one that makes the most sense would seem to
Speaker 2: be ESPN Plus because they have that deal with UFC.
Speaker 2: It may not be for the network as we know.
Speaker 2: It could be for the four major pay per view events,
Speaker 2: could be for all the pay per view events. So
Speaker 2: I mean, it really depends on how this is structured.
Speaker 2: But I think that it was so interesting to hear
Speaker 2: him kind of drop that in and then make it,
Speaker 2: you know, and if this gets done, I'm it'll be
Speaker 2: done in the first quarter. I think even though he
Speaker 2: tried to make it seem casual, I think that was
Speaker 2: very much a planned strategy to kind of distract people,
Speaker 2: which I don't even in retrospect, I don't even know.
Speaker 3: That he needed to do.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were definitely questions about it, but for
Speaker 2: whatever reason the people that call into these financial reports
Speaker 2: don't ask I mean there's some, but most just go
Speaker 2: along for the ride, don't ask him too many tough questions.
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Speaker 1: The idea that he gets asked about selling advertising on
Speaker 1: the network, and he's like, well, you know, if there
Speaker 1: is a network, I mean it's like he's he's putting
Speaker 1: stuff out there, and I mean, are you getting the
Speaker 1: sense at all that they're waving the white flag on
Speaker 1: the network being the right approach for them to take
Speaker 1: and they really are looking at moving to another streaming
Speaker 1: service or as was brought up, just splitting off the
Speaker 1: pay per view and finding a way to have quote
Speaker 1: the best of both worlds. Maybe we can still sell
Speaker 1: WrestleMania in summer Slam and Survivor series the way AW
Speaker 1: and USC do, but also have a base of subscribers
Speaker 1: it would drop. Who are who want all this? I
Speaker 1: guess you know, shoulder content and secondary content including say
Speaker 1: NXT takeovers. Or is this just the distraction to get
Speaker 1: the financial world going. Oh, they got a lot of
Speaker 1: things that could change things for the better. And even
Speaker 1: though Wilson and Burials are gone, and even though network
Speaker 1: numbers are gone, man, they never stop thinking and they're
Speaker 1: nimble and they're looking at all options and it's more
Speaker 1: of a distraction than a reality.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's a distraction in this case, you know,
Speaker 2: because it's just the confidence that he spoke with about this.
Speaker 2: It really does seem like something is cooking here. And
Speaker 2: I do wonder if it plays into the departures of
Speaker 2: Wilson in Barrios, if they disagreed with this approach, and
Speaker 2: that is where the divide comes into play. Perhaps even
Speaker 2: you know that we don't know, but there's been a
Speaker 2: lot of speculation that some of the executive bonuses are
Speaker 2: tied into networks and the time of viewer consumption of
Speaker 2: the network and that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: And I don't know if that's the case, but if it.
Speaker 2: Is and the network's going away, you know, I could
Speaker 2: see that being a source of frustration for them.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I do think there is something here.
Speaker 2: I don't think this is just you know, dangling the
Speaker 2: carrot and hoping it distracts people.
Speaker 3: I think there's something going on.
Speaker 2: And I think if you look at UFC's deal with
Speaker 2: ESPN plus, I mean their pay per view subscriber or
Speaker 2: you know, just their pay per view by count way down.
Speaker 2: But they don't have to care. They make their money anyway.
Speaker 2: Because of the way the deal was structured. They make
Speaker 2: more money than they did before when their pay per
Speaker 2: view numbers were actually strong.
Speaker 1: WW has been trying so hard for years now, obviously
Speaker 1: to get people in the door, and they had very
Speaker 1: high they have very high hopes. They had numbers that
Speaker 1: you know, if you check five plus years ago, I
Speaker 1: were going these are unrealistic. You know, these lapsed fans
Speaker 1: are not going to come rushing back to spend ten
Speaker 1: dollars a month every month to watch a few of
Speaker 1: their favorite wrestling shows and a product with a product
Speaker 1: that was pretty cold at that point. Otherwise, the idea
Speaker 1: that we're sitting here now talking about the possibility of
Speaker 1: them completely shifting strategies is is fascinating. The fact that
Speaker 1: when pressed, they won't say what the profitability of the
Speaker 1: network is, although there's a lot of accounting tricks. How
Speaker 1: profitable was the network? Well, are you counting the talent
Speaker 1: the wrestler pay for the events or not? Or is
Speaker 1: that considered a separate how there's base pay for wrestlers
Speaker 1: that they get, you know, the downsides they get that
Speaker 1: no matter what. Then they get a bonus check. Is
Speaker 1: that bonus check based off the gate you know, the
Speaker 1: ticket sales for the for WrestleMania or network subs If so,
Speaker 1: is it weighted towards the fact that most people who
Speaker 1: get the network in February, March, April and may have
Speaker 1: it almost you know, they have it because they want
Speaker 1: wrestle Ma. So do you weigh that more heavily or
Speaker 1: do you go nope, it's just three hours out of
Speaker 1: a thousand hours they were a subscriber. And so like
Speaker 1: there's so many ways to wiggle the numbers. It's not
Speaker 1: an honest question, it's not a fair and there's no
Speaker 1: way to fairly and honestly and accurately answer how profitable
Speaker 1: is a network? And Riddick said, well, we don't give
Speaker 1: that information out, Well, how can you because if you did,
Speaker 1: you would really need to show the details to get
Speaker 1: people to understand what that really means. And so we
Speaker 1: don't really know how profitable the network is. But w
Speaker 1: B shown with Saudi Arabia with Fox and then USA
Speaker 1: with the renewal. They're looking for big scores. So if
Speaker 1: there is a streaming service out there that says, well,
Speaker 1: you know, let's say Netflix feels vulnerable. They lose a
Speaker 1: lot of their library to these other streaming services. Disney especially,
Speaker 1: they are creating their own original movies and original series.
Speaker 1: But they're like, man, could we add just you know,
Speaker 1: could we add a million people for X amount of money?
Speaker 1: And or do we already have those people? And if
Speaker 1: we pay a lot for Dotamine network, we're just going
Speaker 1: to be giving people bonus content who already subscribing. And
Speaker 1: I don't know the math on that. Is it more
Speaker 1: likely a sports based product like ESPN that then thinks, well,
Speaker 1: if we get all the rest and fans in maybe
Speaker 1: they're more likely to buy UOC pay per views, and
Speaker 1: then ESPN can charge that premiere tier like they do
Speaker 1: for UFC for pay per views. There's so many ways
Speaker 1: this could shake out. I don't sense.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, Vince made it sound like, well, if the
Speaker 1: things that we have in the works come through, it's
Speaker 1: going to be transformative, and he used that word, but
Speaker 1: I didn't get a sense of, really, what do you
Speaker 1: think he's bluffing or do you think he has a
Speaker 1: very specific idea of a deal that might happen.
Speaker 2: No, when he used like, if he was just speaking
Speaker 2: generally about this possibility, then I might think he's bluffing.
Speaker 2: But when he says this, could you know if it's
Speaker 2: going to happen, it can go down in the first quarter.
Speaker 3: I think something's happening. I really do. And Netflix is one.
Speaker 2: I know you're just giving an example, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: don't know how much of it they would be in
Speaker 2: the game because they don't have any type of live
Speaker 2: opponent to what they do right now, and I haven't
Speaker 2: I don't follow it closely, but I haven't seen anything
Speaker 2: that makes me think that they're moving in that direction,
Speaker 2: But I think I believe Amazon it does have that capability,
Speaker 2: and I know they've been players for like the NFL
Speaker 2: package and things like that, so you know, I guess
Speaker 2: we could add them to the potential mix of you know,
Speaker 2: just I guess perspective buyers of the network or whoever
Speaker 2: you want to label this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's fascinating. I mean, I think more
Speaker 1: so than we anticipated. Again, it's a little bit of
Speaker 1: a distraction from Wilson and Barrios being gone, did you
Speaker 1: I mean, Vincent Man just kind of framed it as
Speaker 1: because it's funny, like a week ago when I was
Speaker 1: talking about the departures of Wilson and Baris and in
Speaker 1: the cover story too, I was like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's not a lot left for them to do.
Speaker 1: You know, they've got their network revenue coming in, They're
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia money coming in, their major TV deals. House
Speaker 1: shields are sort of you know, not what they once were, obviously,
Speaker 1: but now it's just sort of, you know, where they
Speaker 1: need to improve is on the creative side. They need
Speaker 1: to create stars, make the product better, and figure out
Speaker 1: a way to navigate oversaturation and figure out where there
Speaker 1: should be synergy and where there should have shouldn't be
Speaker 1: in all that in terms of all the different ways
Speaker 1: they distribute their their content through the three major US brands.
Speaker 1: But now a week later, it does seem as if
Speaker 1: Baris and Wilson might have had a very different idea
Speaker 1: that there might be these new frontiers or major changes
Speaker 1: that there was infighting over, and that might have been
Speaker 1: going on for a while, and if they were advising
Speaker 1: for or against something, and Vince was, you know, on
Speaker 1: the opposite side. It does seem like WWE and six
Speaker 1: months or a year could be actually in quite a
Speaker 1: different place in terms of their business setup. And and
Speaker 1: they're actually the next people who come in as president
Speaker 1: or coot presidents. They might end up being part of,
Speaker 1: as Vince said, a transformative era of WWE business.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they could.
Speaker 2: I mean when they when the it was first announced,
Speaker 2: I thought, Man, is this Vince throwing them under the
Speaker 2: bus for a bad report or just a bad outlook
Speaker 2: not reaching those television deals that kept coming up today
Speaker 2: in the Middle East, in India. But the more I
Speaker 2: thought about, it's like, if you're going to do if
Speaker 2: you're gonna throw somebody under the boss, you throw one
Speaker 2: of them under the bus. You know, you pick between
Speaker 2: the two and then you just held the hell out
Speaker 2: of the other one. I don't think you would just
Speaker 2: get rid of both of them. I thought Michelle Wilson
Speaker 2: was as powerful as anybody in that company, just because
Speaker 2: of some of the battles that she's won, you know,
Speaker 2: the power struggles that she's won, and know, just with
Speaker 2: female empowerment and everything. I thought, if anyone was gonna go,
Speaker 2: probably Barrios and Michelle would stick around. But to see
Speaker 2: both of them go, that really surprised me.
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Speaker 1: So what looking at the landscape, what do you think
Speaker 1: I think a new the legacy of the of the
Speaker 1: new executives are going to be or do you sense
Speaker 1: and again it's a sense, it's not hard information that
Speaker 1: Vince just sort of wants more control right now and
Speaker 1: the people who come in to replace the departures will
Speaker 1: have less power. Do you think that Vince is looking
Speaker 1: for that person to kind of well he puts up
Speaker 1: a strong front in terms of his leadership and his ideas,
Speaker 1: that he's actually looking for somebody who agrees with him
Speaker 1: on strategy but will take will make big changes.
Speaker 2: I get just I think it's a Vince power thing,
Speaker 2: because I this isn't we're promoting Frank Riddick, who's the
Speaker 2: interim person handling Wilson Embarius's duties.
Speaker 3: By the sounds of it, I mean.
Speaker 2: That's his title is interroim, and it's not he and
Speaker 2: I share this vision and therefore I'm promoting him into
Speaker 2: this position. They're looking for outsiders, you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: is there a chance the interim title is taken away?
Speaker 2: I guess, but it doesn't seem to be something that
Speaker 2: was hinted at today. Didn't seem to be like they're
Speaker 2: strongly considering. They weren't counting anyone that's already under WWE employment.
Speaker 2: It really did sound like they're aggressively looking outside the company.
Speaker 2: And when you do that, I mean, that tells me that, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's going to want somebody that's going to come in
Speaker 2: and execute his vision. I think this was a power struggle.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know it, but it's Vince. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't be surprised to be used as the lingo that
Speaker 2: he uses in creative It is a hill you want
Speaker 2: to die on, And they said, yes, we.
Speaker 1: Looking at w STOCK today. There's not a sense that
Speaker 1: people are impressed with what they're hearing. Despite the idea
Speaker 1: of a major deal to sell their pay per views
Speaker 1: or their network content. They're done about eight percent as recording,
Speaker 1: this to under forty five dollars. And when you look
Speaker 1: at where they were a week ago on January thirtyeth
Speaker 1: through at sixty two dollars. This if the strategy here,
Speaker 1: Evin's going aggressively, wo might announce something in the first
Speaker 1: quarter was meant to boost stock prices, that is not happening.
Speaker 1: I mean CNN dot com headline. Things keep getting worse
Speaker 1: for WWE deadline, WWE earnings woes, stock drop overshadow return
Speaker 1: of Vince McMahon's XFL the wraps you know, talks about
Speaker 1: the b in talks to sell pay per view rights
Speaker 1: to another major quote unquote streaming service, and at New
Speaker 1: York posts be stock tanks after revenues, mis expectations, on
Speaker 1: and on. I mean the headlines out there when you
Speaker 1: do a search of keywords right now online for all,
Speaker 1: for the industry reaction to this, to the data drop
Speaker 1: today on the press conference, it's it's it didn't work.
Speaker 1: If the strategy was, let's hit these bull points, so
Speaker 1: we see that a lot. I mean, nobody asks meinsick
Speaker 1: man how's that reinventing a house shills coming that you
Speaker 1: talked about six monthes ago. You know, there isn't that
Speaker 1: follow up. But at the same time they're looking at
Speaker 1: the hard numbers and then they're hearing if you pay
Speaker 1: attention to things, Vince says, that don't actually come to
Speaker 1: fruition you you have to go show me. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to buy stock based on this idea that you're
Speaker 1: blowing up. Are you're touting something that might happen, that
Speaker 1: might be good and it also might come across as
Speaker 1: again them waving the white flag a little bit on
Speaker 1: those really high hopes upon which some of the stock
Speaker 1: price was based that they can grow to to you
Speaker 1: network as they expand internationally and just reach new people.
Speaker 2: What's left after this, and I know you talked about
Speaker 2: that a little bit with Wilson and Barrios and what
Speaker 2: would be left for them. But if they do indeed
Speaker 2: sell off the network and transform that in some way, okay,
Speaker 2: it's just a struggle to get the next television deal.
Speaker 2: I mean, they had their deal locked in with Saudi
Speaker 2: Arabia for a while. They're sat on TV for a
Speaker 2: little while.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but what else? What is there. I don't even know.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it comes back to Bruce Mitchell and
Speaker 1: I talked about this a few days ago on the
Speaker 1: Bruce Mitchel Audie Show, and they need to just find
Speaker 1: a way to do better creative, you know, like actually
Speaker 1: create stars and get people excited about the actual product.
Speaker 1: And you know when you watch SmackDown, like I don't
Speaker 1: actually dread Smacked On. I think some people who like
Speaker 1: watch Smacked On're like, oh god, you know I'm gonna slog.
Speaker 3: Through this there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah, I mean there are weeks. But but
Speaker 1: I I, you know, I like, I enjoy it. It's
Speaker 1: it's sort of low stress, you know, it's just it's
Speaker 1: Bruce Pritchard Vince McMahon sports entertainment with their quote larger
Speaker 1: than the life characters kind of doing WWE sports entertainment.
Speaker 1: It's not it doesn't really challenge me. But there's enough
Speaker 1: people that I, you know, think are doing good work
Speaker 1: in the ring and good work on the mic. It's
Speaker 1: it's fine, but I don't get really like it doesn't
Speaker 1: I don't get really excited going into the weekend about
Speaker 1: wo B. But and some shows are kind of blah,
Speaker 1: but like that's not enough, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: there's not this sense. So my my I'm setting up
Speaker 1: the foundation of my baseline is I don't hate smacked
Speaker 1: on right now. And I know some people like, oh,
Speaker 1: I fee that's so boring, blah blah blah, Baron Corbyn, this,
Speaker 1: King Corbyn that, but it is not going to inspire
Speaker 1: people except for you know, kids who are discovering WWE
Speaker 1: and want to go and see their those here, those
Speaker 1: super stars in person. It's not an inspiring product. I
Speaker 1: think Raw is better, I think NXT is better, but
Speaker 1: there isn't that breakout star. And I don't think Drew McIntyre,
Speaker 1: as much as I'm in favor of the Pushy's getting,
Speaker 1: is going to be to use the word of that
Speaker 1: transformative babyface for them. I think he's a good choice
Speaker 1: to be their lead babyface and has a chance to
Speaker 1: be really good in that position, but he's not gonna
Speaker 1: be transformative. So to me, what's left and I don't
Speaker 1: is focusing on that. And it's people in the financial
Speaker 1: world who are part of these quarterly calls that they
Speaker 1: don't watch the show. They don't have any sense of
Speaker 1: whether Drew McIntyre has a chance to be a breakout
Speaker 1: star or who an NXT might be called up there.
Speaker 1: They don't even know who Keith Lee is and couldn't
Speaker 1: pick him out of a lineup. That's what we do.
Speaker 1: But the next thing for them is to either with
Speaker 1: a breakout star or just like RAW. I think the
Speaker 1: last couple of months just piece by piece put out
Speaker 1: better shows and inch their way up. But wbe's and
Speaker 1: Vinc mc mann is in the business of that rush
Speaker 1: from the big deal, yes, and that takes away from
Speaker 1: the week by week improvement and tending to the product.
Speaker 1: I don't think Vince is bored by the wrestling, but
Speaker 1: I don't think he thinks that will make a big
Speaker 1: enough difference because it used to be house showgates. Oh
Speaker 1: did we do a million dollars at MSG? Oh no,
Speaker 1: we did eight and ninety. What are we gonna do
Speaker 1: to fix that for next time? Now they're making billions
Speaker 1: of dollars. That stuff a small change, but you eventually
Speaker 1: pay the price for not being inspired and refreshing that
Speaker 1: aspect of your business. And I think there's a sense
Speaker 1: of other than on, you know, like Ron nxta booker's
Speaker 1: you know, it seems like who are somewhat inspired to
Speaker 1: trying your things. But SmackDown is on Fox, and I
Speaker 1: think that the air came out at WWE's image to
Speaker 1: a certain degree with how sort of mediocre they're doing
Speaker 1: on Fox. And there's not buzz about the show.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's I mean, I don't dread it. There was
Speaker 2: probably the last time I was ONIE. But I was
Speaker 2: in that mode, right, I really was. It's gotten a little.
Speaker 2: It's palatable. I guess it's the best word I can
Speaker 2: use to describe SmackDown.
Speaker 3: Yep. But yeah, I mean, this is Fox.
Speaker 2: This is the one we thought, well, Fox themselves, they
Speaker 2: had all these great ideas for what they were going
Speaker 2: to do for WWE, and it was go ahead, please
Speaker 2: make this more sports like you know whatever. Our everyone's different,
Speaker 2: everyone has a different vision for improvement. It hasn't changed.
Speaker 2: It's just okay, there's graphics in an ac DC song.
Speaker 2: They have two commentators now instead of three. This is
Speaker 2: the same product and maybe even worse because this is
Speaker 2: you know, I suspect strongly Bruce Pritchard writing for Vince
Speaker 2: Bookman or Vince Bmocmann writing for himself. That's what we're
Speaker 2: getting on this show and that doesn't cut it in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty anymore. It hasn't cut it in a few
Speaker 2: years now. Vince has gone down the hill dramatically, which
Speaker 2: is what's so funny about these quarterly conference calls. The
Speaker 2: financial people seem to think like he's the solution to everything,
Speaker 2: and they don't realize, No, he's the real problem here.
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Speaker 1: All right, we're deeping the show here, but let's set
Speaker 1: the table introduce ourselves. This is the Way Keller Pro
Speaker 1: Wrestling Podcast for Thursday, February six, twenty twenty. I'm Way Keller,
Speaker 1: host of the program, joined by Jason Powell from Pro
Speaker 1: Wrestling dot Net. Jason a twenty plus your veteran reporter
Speaker 1: and analyst covering professional wrestling runs. Progressing dot Net also
Speaker 1: hosts the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. Jason, list off the
Speaker 1: last five or six guests you've had on that on
Speaker 1: your on your free weekly podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, you're asking me to think, Yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 2: It's this week. Court Valuer was the week before. Who
Speaker 2: did I have on prior to the NWA pay per
Speaker 2: viewers Alison K Yeah, the week before that. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: Ricky Starks, I believe, And I'm neither missing somebody in
Speaker 2: between or I don't remember five weeks back.
Speaker 3: I'm impressed I made it this far back.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I was I should. I kind of
Speaker 1: knew I was putting on the spot when I did that.
Speaker 1: My point is, you've got a really cool, diverse mix
Speaker 1: of different people in different roles in wrestling on your
Speaker 1: show on a weekly basis, so people should check it out.
Speaker 1: If they have it yet. Plus you talk all kinds
Speaker 1: of current events too.
Speaker 3: You got it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And so you mentioned twenty years. So yes,
Speaker 2: I'm old, but I'll never be as old as Bruce Mitchel.
Speaker 2: That's the important thing to remember.
Speaker 1: No, that is that is I believe how how time works.
Speaker 1: So you are correct? All right? Well, anything else from
Speaker 1: w Financials before we kind of turn the page with
Speaker 1: some other stuff here.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm trying to think if anything else really did
Speaker 3: jump out.
Speaker 2: It's uh, you know, having talked about it with Jake
Speaker 2: now it's it's starting to turn into a blur.
Speaker 3: But I think we hit kind of the key points
Speaker 3: on this. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Again, I think it just comes down to the structure,
Speaker 2: if they do indeed move the network, or it's just
Speaker 2: you know, it's transformative whatever. You know. However, this changes things,
Speaker 2: you know, I think naturally think there's going to be
Speaker 2: some concern with the consumer, you know, and that's the
Speaker 2: thing that Wall Street doesn't give a damn about. And
Speaker 2: I really wonder if Vince McMahon gives a damn about.
Speaker 2: I think there's there's real potential for backlash year Wade,
Speaker 2: you know, not just the Roman reigns one I'm canceling
Speaker 2: my subscription and then you know, three people do or something.
Speaker 2: I think real potential backlash from people bothered by this
Speaker 2: that you know, hey, you've been selling me on nine
Speaker 2: ninety nine for how long? That's what your product is
Speaker 2: worth to me now, but you want me to pay
Speaker 2: how much for WrestleMania this year. We don't know if
Speaker 2: that's what's going to happen, but it wouldn't be surprising
Speaker 2: if that's the approach they're going to take. If it
Speaker 2: is like UFC, Okay, you got to sign up for
Speaker 2: ESPN Plus and then they'll deduct that amount from your
Speaker 2: pay per view purchase. But I mean, that's basically what
Speaker 2: this is. But it's not traditional pay per view either.
Speaker 2: So you're asking people who in some cases to struggle
Speaker 2: to figure out how WWE Network ended up functioning, to
Speaker 2: now figure out how ESPN or whoever does theirs. I mean,
Speaker 2: so I think there's I mean, but the thing, if
Speaker 2: it's structured like the UFC ESPN Plus deal, toywe is
Speaker 2: not going to have to care because they're going to
Speaker 2: have their their set money anyway. And then we get
Speaker 2: back into something you and I spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time kind of shooting down, which is the notion that, oh,
Speaker 2: they have the network and so they have their built.
Speaker 3: In money, they're not going to care. No.
Speaker 2: Now when that could come into play If the deal
Speaker 2: is structured like UFCS, if it's incentive based, great, But
Speaker 2: if it's here's a boatload of money for the next
Speaker 2: five years of your pay per view, Okay, it's gonna
Speaker 2: work like TV where they're gonna worry about it to
Speaker 2: some extent, but it's they're not living and dying off
Speaker 2: of each one and trying to move that network number,
Speaker 2: subscription number up. It's just, you know, okay, we can
Speaker 2: get through this show and fulfill our obligation.
Speaker 1: They're so far removed from oh we didn't we didn't
Speaker 1: get this much at MSG this month. What can we
Speaker 1: what angle can we run or who should we rotate
Speaker 1: into a main evan spot in order to help business?
Speaker 1: But that is at the core what drives business, not
Speaker 1: the model, not a tier, not a slight price change,
Speaker 1: not a different way of pitching something. It's about getting
Speaker 1: people to want to see a wrestler beat another wrestler
Speaker 1: in a match that they have created a scenario that
Speaker 1: in fans' minds. That matters in terms of a story
Speaker 1: that they're invested in, and the more removed they get
Speaker 1: from that, the more all this other stuff matters less.
Speaker 1: Now it matters if they can strike a transformative deal
Speaker 1: where their revenue goes up. That's fine. But that's Vince
Speaker 1: mcmhnon playing the Wall Street game, the profits game, the
Speaker 1: balance sheet game. He's not a wrestling promoter anymore. He's
Speaker 1: just playing around with delivery methods and revenue deals. And
Speaker 1: that's always been part of Vince's business, you know, I
Speaker 1: mean trying to you know, run buildings and not let
Speaker 1: others in buildings and buy TV spots and major markets
Speaker 1: when he expanded. I mean, he's always been a bit
Speaker 1: on the business side, very aggressive. This isn't like something new,
Speaker 1: but it was always connected so much to TV ratings,
Speaker 1: ticket sales, pay per view buys, and you just hear
Speaker 1: a disconnect now and I think that's to me, that's
Speaker 1: still the ultimate concern. You know, with the departure Barrows
Speaker 1: and Wilson matters a lot, but in one respect, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter at all for arrest fan because what a
Speaker 1: wrestling fan cares about. Yes, I mean, I know the
Speaker 1: ESPN Plus to watch uc pay per view. My head
Speaker 1: hurt the first time I tried to figure out how
Speaker 1: to do it. And I'm pretty tech savvy. I'm the
Speaker 1: one who people go to to figure stuff like this out.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh God, I want to watch
Speaker 1: this pay per view, but oh, what do I have
Speaker 1: to do now? And I'm like, go side of this
Speaker 1: and then this gets deducted from that, and then I
Speaker 1: have to log in and then do this, and then
Speaker 1: I have to download an app. Is does my Samsung
Speaker 1: TV have that app? Or do I have to Who
Speaker 1: got an Apple TV? It was just like a mess,
Speaker 1: you know, Like so that's not serving the fans if
Speaker 1: there's that complication. But in the end, fans are going
Speaker 1: to find a way to watch a match or an
Speaker 1: event they want to watch. They will overcome that hurdle
Speaker 1: if they're motivated. But if they're not, I'm like, god,
Speaker 1: screw it. I'm just gonna put on you know, AW
Speaker 1: and the DVR, go watch NWA Power on my laptop
Speaker 1: And so some of that matters, But in the end,
Speaker 1: you need fans to want the product for it to work.
Speaker 1: And what we're talking about isn't probably of interest to
Speaker 1: a lot of people listening to the show, They're just like,
Speaker 1: I just want to I just want wrestlers. I want
Speaker 1: to I just want to be invested in good matches
Speaker 1: with wrestlers I care about, and all this other stuff
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. And I just don't sense that there's that
Speaker 1: level of introspection publicly by Vincent Mann or anyone in WWE.
Speaker 1: And maybe, I mean maybe that's where they spend ninety
Speaker 1: percent of their time behind the scenes, and it just
Speaker 1: doesn't come up in these things. And obviously a decision
Speaker 1: to turned room Ac and tire Babyface and have them
Speaker 1: win the rumble, and the creative idea pro or con
Speaker 1: of having Lesnar enter first and doing the storyline with him,
Speaker 1: they're obviously still doing creative things on a week to
Speaker 1: week basis. But I just don't sense that they realize
Speaker 1: that's where that has to be, that has to be fixed,
Speaker 1: and that's what needs to be transformative for all these
Speaker 1: other things to matter, other than if you're just you know,
Speaker 1: playing a game of moving, moving the pieces around in
Speaker 1: terms of how you distribute the product and the deals
Speaker 1: you sign, and I get that's the game. There, I
Speaker 1: now is a public good traded company. That's what excites
Speaker 1: in Man and his people, and they quote need to
Speaker 1: do it because he judges himself on stock price now
Speaker 1: more than TV ratings or ticket sales.
Speaker 6: In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
Speaker 6: ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch Vip
Speaker 6: podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
Speaker 6: look at this page in NXT's early history.
Speaker 7: Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
Speaker 7: NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
Speaker 7: the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
Speaker 7: did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch Vip members.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean all of that is in play.
Speaker 2: I want to back up the you know, two fans
Speaker 2: who just you know, want to think more about the
Speaker 2: booking or what was a good match. They're going to
Speaker 2: care if they're suddenly asked to go from paying nine
Speaker 2: to ninety nine to paying you know, fifty bucks for
Speaker 2: a pay per view for WRESTLEMANNI or whatever that dollar
Speaker 2: fit would be. And that's where I think WWE there
Speaker 2: could be some real backlash over that, not that you know,
Speaker 2: wrestling fins are still gonna watch wrestling, doesn't mean they're
Speaker 2: not gonna watch Ron SmackDown. But are they going to
Speaker 2: be quick to pay fifty bucks or whatever that price
Speaker 2: would be for wrestling?
Speaker 3: Nannia, Do they just decide screw it?
Speaker 2: No, I can watch all these other all these other
Speaker 2: programs that are available to me for free. Things have
Speaker 2: changed a lot since WWE's pay per view days, and
Speaker 2: there's just so much more competition out there just in
Speaker 2: the wrestling genre alone that I think, you know, some
Speaker 2: people are going to make that decision to say, ah, whatever,
Speaker 2: I'll follow along with way Keller's report or Jason Powell's report.
Speaker 3: I don't need to see this, screw them.
Speaker 1: Or I'll find a way to find it online and
Speaker 1: some other o.
Speaker 3: There is that too, Yeah, And I.
Speaker 1: Mean if the price gets high enough, I mean, if
Speaker 1: they charged a million dollars for a pay per view,
Speaker 1: I would resort to that, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like I would have to, you know, practically speaking, and
Speaker 1: if you reduce it down there are some people who
Speaker 1: practically speaking can have four to ten bucks a month.
Speaker 1: They can't. They'll get kicked out of the house. If
Speaker 1: there's a sixty five dollars bill on cable for a
Speaker 1: wrestling pay per view, And so I don't know where
Speaker 1: they would be right now if they had stuck with
Speaker 1: pay per view in terms of how the revenue would
Speaker 1: compare and how you know, what the what the pace
Speaker 1: of pay per view buys would be, if it would
Speaker 1: have been, if it would have diminished at the same
Speaker 1: rate TV ratings have or or what. I mean, we
Speaker 1: just don't know. That's an alternate universe. And anyone who
Speaker 1: says they know doesn't. You can look at indicators and
Speaker 1: try to guess. But you are right to back up
Speaker 1: and make that point that if they suddenly start trying
Speaker 1: to charge people thirty or fifty or seventy dollars. I mean,
Speaker 1: I looked at the Conor McGregor fight. I was like,
Speaker 1: I kind of, you know, want to see this, and
Speaker 1: I just looked and I was like, I can't justify
Speaker 1: paying whatever seventy bucks or whatever for what amount to
Speaker 1: probably a two minute squash, and that's what it turned
Speaker 1: out to be. And so I just that's again, but
Speaker 1: it comes kind of full circle back to even it
Speaker 1: You're right, even if the product is really good, will
Speaker 1: people be resistant after the ten dollars flat fee or
Speaker 1: ninety nin for so long will they be resistant to
Speaker 1: seeing through McIntyre against brock Lesner, no matter how good
Speaker 1: of a job they do building that up. And that's
Speaker 1: absolutely a question that Vince McMahon doesn't know the answer to.
Speaker 2: And the scary part of it's the dealers structor like UFCS,
Speaker 2: he's not gonna have to care I always right, you know,
Speaker 2: when it comes to that paper. Now, there could be
Speaker 2: other effects on his overall product that he would have
Speaker 2: to care about, but when it comes to the pay
Speaker 2: per view, he just rugged his shoulders.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 1: And and same with the same thing with raw ratings.
Speaker 1: There's fewer people watching, and then people shrug their shoulders,
Speaker 1: and Vince can point to, oh, look we were the
Speaker 1: number was it? Two three and seven rated? Seventh rated
Speaker 1: hours a couple of weeks ago in January and all
Speaker 1: of cable, you know, they were one of the top rated.
Speaker 1: Even though the ratings are lower than last year and
Speaker 1: way lower than two and three years ago. They can
Speaker 1: point to certain things to go yeah, but relatively speaking,
Speaker 1: my counter argument to that is, yeah, but fewer people
Speaker 1: are watching your products start to finish live and that
Speaker 1: reduction in engagement means fewer people being being exposed to
Speaker 1: your current and new ste fewer people being excited to
Speaker 1: buy tickets, fewer people and who are even a candidate
Speaker 1: to buy the network. So you can say, well, we
Speaker 1: got a flat fee for X number of years, so
Speaker 1: ratings don't matter. That's just BS ratings matter because that's
Speaker 1: those are the that's a that is a gauge on
Speaker 1: not only a gauge on how excited they are now
Speaker 1: compared to one month ago or a year ago. But
Speaker 1: if you say, well, but the trend is downward, it's inevitable, Well,
Speaker 1: you have fewer people who are watching your product. And
Speaker 1: I don't think watching the top ten moments in w
Speaker 1: on YouTube is the same thing as a viewer watching
Speaker 1: raw live in terms of someone being a candidate to
Speaker 1: buy a ticket or buy the network. So it it
Speaker 1: still comes back to that, and I am I'm fascinated
Speaker 1: to see where they go. And then you have aw
Speaker 1: just kind of doing their thing for two hours a week,
Speaker 1: much lower budget but high enough to look major league,
Speaker 1: you know, putting out pay per views. I think it's
Speaker 1: going to be telling how revolution does the first one
Speaker 1: I got, you know, in what way do you think.
Speaker 2: Well, just if wwster for pay per view again, you know,
Speaker 2: does that cut into people's budget for AW?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: You know, I mean in some cases, I think it'll
Speaker 2: drive people to AW, you know, the more disenfranchised people
Speaker 2: that are frustrated and that hey, AW has been charging.
Speaker 3: This all along.
Speaker 2: I mean, WWE did this. This is ten dollars. This
Speaker 2: is what your pay per view and the whole monthly
Speaker 2: service are now worth. So there could be some backlash
Speaker 2: with that. I mean, you still you do hear from
Speaker 2: people when it comes to the price point of AW
Speaker 2: shows done, this is way too much. Everybody else is
Speaker 2: charging ten bucks. But they could actually be the good
Speaker 2: guy to some people because well that's what they've done
Speaker 2: from the beginning, where WWE is gone, hey, we're taking
Speaker 2: that back.
Speaker 1: Well, and aw's out running monthly shows and they're giving
Speaker 1: you two hours a week on cable, not seven. So
Speaker 1: there's you know, I guess with pay per views it's
Speaker 1: generally five hours around. SmackDown NXT's not a big part
Speaker 1: of the of the monthly pay p reviews on network.
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, yeah, AW can be the good guy, and
Speaker 1: you know they're going to splinter the market. I mean,
Speaker 1: if there's a hardware store on a corner and there's
Speaker 1: a line out the door because so many people want
Speaker 1: to buy hammers and nails and lawnmowers, and there's an
Speaker 1: empty location across the street that used to be a Blockbuster,
Speaker 1: somebody is gonna look and go, oh god, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of hardware business in this market. I'm gonna open
Speaker 1: one kitty corner and take forty fifty percent of their
Speaker 1: revenue underprice them get sixty percent, like OfficeMax, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of did to drive all the mod pop office
Speaker 1: supply stores out of business twenty years ago. AW is
Speaker 1: that is opening up in that empty Blockbuster they're saying,
Speaker 1: or what used to be WW or whatever. They're filling
Speaker 1: that void. And by definition, there are people who are
Speaker 1: progressing fans and they're gonna watch them pro wrestling, and
Speaker 1: aw's pulling them away from RAW. You know, that's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons RAW ratings are down from yer ago,
Speaker 1: even if the product is better, is some people just
Speaker 1: they only have so many so much time to watch wrestling,
Speaker 1: and AEW serves them better. So of course that's gonna
Speaker 1: carry over to pay per view, and of course that's
Speaker 1: going to carry over to some people canceling ww network
Speaker 1: because they want to save their money up for the
Speaker 1: every few months big pay per view with the wrestlers
Speaker 1: and the just the brand and that AW projects that
Speaker 1: people identify with and see as the good guy in
Speaker 1: this fight.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think this potentially Again, it all depends on the
Speaker 2: structure of the deal and if it goes to fruition,
Speaker 2: this could be one of the bigger stories of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty because it's not just WWEAEW all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: That money that somebody had for an NWA pay per view,
Speaker 2: Do I want to spend that now because you know
Speaker 2: WWE is charging me extra and I want to see
Speaker 2: that show, and you get the trickle down effect on
Speaker 2: our club all of it.
Speaker 3: I think everyone can be affected by this deal. Yep.
Speaker 1: Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite
Speaker 1: in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
Speaker 1: on the show or a topic you want us to
Speaker 1: address or a question for us. Wadkeller Podcast at pwtorch
Speaker 1: dot com. Weadkeller Podcast at petwtorch dot com. If there's
Speaker 1: anything else going on, in pro wrestling that you want
Speaker 1: us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments.
Speaker 1: That same email applies Wade Keller podcast at PW toorch
Speaker 1: dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know what
Speaker 1: you think of what we're saying, and let us know
Speaker 1: what you want us to talk about and ask us
Speaker 1: specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
Speaker 1: All right, Jason, let's take a moment here for you
Speaker 1: to plug your website and your.
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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about AW for a second. They've had
Speaker 1: some good things going right now in terms of Hangman
Speaker 1: Page and Knny Omegan, the Bucks that I think they're
Speaker 1: all in a better position the last time we talked
Speaker 1: Jason in terms of creating some buzz and people being
Speaker 1: invested in the direction that they go in. They've got
Speaker 1: a good thing going with John Moxley right now in
Speaker 1: Chris Jericho and just a good thing with Jericho in
Speaker 1: the Inner Circle and the Cody MJFF angle, and you know,
Speaker 1: we can it was a little over indulgent, a little long.
Speaker 1: I understand some of that criticism that's coming in, but overall,
Speaker 1: you know, they've taken MGF and turned it into a
Speaker 1: star with their audience, and Cody is a top tier
Speaker 1: sympathetic babyface to the aw audience, and and so I
Speaker 1: think they have some some strong pillars to their product
Speaker 1: right now. And yet on the other side, and I
Speaker 1: spent a decent amount of time on last night's postial
Speaker 1: talking about it, there's still kind of a sloppiness to
Speaker 1: certain things they're.
Speaker 3: Doing and.
Speaker 1: A sense of I mean, like I was ranting about
Speaker 1: this on the vipway Killer online Tuesday night a bit
Speaker 1: which is AW Dark in the Road to the City
Speaker 1: this week, it just feels like a deck of card
Speaker 1: shuffle of features, Like there's there's no coherent vision right
Speaker 1: now for what AW Dark is. I don't know how
Speaker 1: you are, but it's like a struggle to figure out
Speaker 1: what the announced matches are for aaw Even after I
Speaker 1: watch Dark and Road two, I still don't know what
Speaker 1: scheduled for Dark. I kind of remember what they said
Speaker 1: a week earlier, and then I can go on their
Speaker 1: Twitter feed and find it, but they don't have it
Speaker 1: on their website. And like, AW Dark should be hyping
Speaker 1: and promoting and getting you excited about Dynamite, and they're
Speaker 1: not doing it. So that's one example of where it
Speaker 1: does does feel like there's a number of chefs and
Speaker 1: they're working in different kitchens and they're not communicating with
Speaker 1: each other, and I just imagine where could they be
Speaker 1: with the good things, the good things that matter more
Speaker 1: than anything I just talked about. But if they were
Speaker 1: doing these other things better and the product was cleaned
Speaker 1: up a little bit, you know, take the red pen
Speaker 1: to the script and go, we can tweak this to
Speaker 1: improve this aspect of it, I think they could be,
Speaker 1: you know, significantly better off in terms of viewership and
Speaker 1: engagement to get people to buy their pay per views.
Speaker 1: And it does feel kind of sloppy. It still feels
Speaker 1: like a first draft sometimes of what this product I
Speaker 1: think should should have been by now. So what's what's
Speaker 1: your take on my sort of overview of where AW
Speaker 1: stands now?
Speaker 3: I know, I think you nailed it.
Speaker 2: I think watching the show, I do feel like we're
Speaker 2: seeing different creative visions. And I'm sure, you know, Tony
Speaker 2: Kahan's signing off on everything, but it does feel like, Okay,
Speaker 2: there's a different vision for what Cody's doing and maybe
Speaker 2: Jericho's doing, and then I don't know what's going on
Speaker 2: in the women's division.
Speaker 3: Happen time. That's a mess. The tag division is a
Speaker 3: bit of a mess at times.
Speaker 2: There's some better things happening on top now with I
Speaker 2: do when I went back way up, I think Hangman
Speaker 2: Page is in a better place, and it's mostly because
Speaker 2: of the stone cold quality of him boozing.
Speaker 3: I don't even think like that was my design.
Speaker 2: I think they, I agree, bumbled onto this, you know,
Speaker 2: and that's fine, you know that'll happen. But I don't
Speaker 2: really know that Kenny Omega and the Young Bucks are
Speaker 2: in a better place. I think Kenny kind of feels
Speaker 2: like the peacemaker. And if you're one of those people
Speaker 2: who is into you know, stone cold Hangman Page and
Speaker 2: him drinking and you're having fun with that, are you
Speaker 2: kind of looking at the Bucks going, well, knock it up,
Speaker 2: you kill Joyce?
Speaker 1: Well, absolutely when I say they're in a better place,
Speaker 1: and I agree with your kind of qualification on that,
Speaker 1: which is they're in a better place simply because they're
Speaker 1: involved in something people care about. But sure, fair enough,
Speaker 1: and that's all I mean, Because they're not in a
Speaker 1: better place if the idea is for them to be
Speaker 1: babyface as opposite of Hangman Page, turning heel. They have
Speaker 1: bubbled upon something and to extend the Stone Cold analogy,
Speaker 1: you know, he was supposed to be a heel and
Speaker 1: the fans started sharing him and they turned a face.
Speaker 1: Hulk Hogan came in at a w a supposed to
Speaker 1: be a heel, the fans started cheering him, and Hulkamania
Speaker 1: was born prior to going to WWF, by the way,
Speaker 1: for those who don't know that history and should And
Speaker 1: so now you have Hangman Page. And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: he's going to be the next Hulk Cogan or Stone
Speaker 1: Cult because I honestly don't think he will be, but
Speaker 1: I think he can be more than the next James Storm.
Speaker 1: And there's something happening here where Aw's audience relates to
Speaker 1: someone who wants to enjoy a beer and doesn't want
Speaker 1: the friend nagging them about drinking too much. And at
Speaker 1: this point, Hangman Page hasn't done anything that actually shows
Speaker 1: he's he deserves to have the beer he yanked out
Speaker 1: of his hand, like they've they've approached that line. And
Speaker 1: there's times where he seemed, you know, disengaged a little
Speaker 1: bit more than he should be if he's going to
Speaker 1: be a good friend and a good partner, but it's
Speaker 1: not I don't think working the way that they intend.
Speaker 1: So the question is is AW nimble enough to either say,
Speaker 1: all right, we got some of those Page, let's keep
Speaker 1: them babyface, and the young Bucks we want to keep
Speaker 1: them babyface too, So we need them to come to
Speaker 1: an understanding and kind of pat Page on the back
Speaker 1: and go, yeah, you do your thing, we'll do ours,
Speaker 1: and it's cool. We'll still be friends, but we're not.
Speaker 1: You know, if that's working for you, great, and then
Speaker 1: just get him into different programs or do you turn
Speaker 1: the box or do you turn Kenny? They have some
Speaker 1: options right now, and I'm curious because this is aw's
Speaker 1: first test of a crowd reaction going I think quite
Speaker 1: different than there they've envisioned when they booked it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if I've seen the Bucks work
Speaker 2: Keel since Gosh, what the generation me? Did they work
Speaker 2: some here? I mean, I've honestly forgotten back to what
Speaker 2: they did in impact. I'm sure they can so much
Speaker 2: of their offense. And to their credit, I mentioned last
Speaker 2: week in one of my hit lists that I don't
Speaker 2: think they get enough credit for adapting their style to
Speaker 2: who they're in the ring with.
Speaker 3: I think they do a really nice job of that.
Speaker 2: But so maybe they can go out there and work
Speaker 2: more of a heel style, eliminate some of the crowd
Speaker 2: pleasing spots and things like that.
Speaker 3: Can they handle it on the mic?
Speaker 2: I wouldn't mind seeing the Bucks turn heel, but I
Speaker 2: don't know it's the right direction. I guess I would
Speaker 2: take the approach of, all right, this is clicking better
Speaker 2: than we thought. We still have our guys in the elite,
Speaker 2: and we were going to go with hangman page feuding
Speaker 2: with Kenny Omega. Let's scrap that. There's other people they
Speaker 2: can both work with. This page thing is catching fire.
Speaker 2: There's no need to turn the popular Young Bucks or
Speaker 2: Kenny Omega right now. So let's just kind of figure
Speaker 2: it a way out of this if we wanted to.
Speaker 2: I think they want to have a match between those
Speaker 2: tag teams, and you can do that, but it can
Speaker 2: end with mutual respect and you kind of move on.
Speaker 1: That'd be kind of my vote right now. Although I
Speaker 1: am a trigue by the Bucks's heels, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, the fans like them, and they aw fan
Speaker 1: base likes them, but they like other people too. They
Speaker 1: like Moxley a lot, they like Hangman Page a lot.
Speaker 1: We can, you know, like Cody a lot. I think
Speaker 1: they can afford to have the Bucks turned heel and
Speaker 1: feud with and then line up some some babyface teams
Speaker 1: to face them. I'm not against that. I think the
Speaker 1: Bucks could be obnoxious. I don't think being the elite
Speaker 1: on YouTube is an important enough franchise that you can't
Speaker 1: that you that you worry about risking what they've built
Speaker 1: up there. So I'm intrigued by it. I don't rule
Speaker 1: it out. There's a lot of other factors at play,
Speaker 1: so I can I can endorse in theory either approach
Speaker 1: that they take all of that said. I mean I
Speaker 1: lean a little bit towards keep them babyface and have
Speaker 1: them just kind of not come to a point in
Speaker 1: no return and instead just you know, have it out
Speaker 1: and then let hay Man Page go be a baby
Speaker 1: face but not be in the vicinity of Omega and
Speaker 1: the Bucks and let him do his thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, hey, if they if they feel like it's
Speaker 2: a good direction for the by, wouldn't proach I mean,
Speaker 2: I think they have proven over the years to be
Speaker 2: such strong merch sellers and things like that. My first
Speaker 2: inclination is to keep them babyfaced. But you know, if
Speaker 2: they're willing to figure out we got others we can
Speaker 2: sell T shirts with, then we'll be just fine.
Speaker 3: Cool. I'd be interested in that.
Speaker 1: I get merchandise sales. And I don't mean this like
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's important and it's not. It is important,
Speaker 1: but it's more important to present your wrestling characters on
Speaker 1: your TV show in a way that makes the product
Speaker 1: as good as it can be. And so the idea
Speaker 1: that while we can't turn this person heel because they're
Speaker 1: selling T shirts, it's like, I get that's a factor,
Speaker 1: but you're put the main driver. If you start doing that,
Speaker 1: you're sacrificing the quality of your overall product and the
Speaker 1: matches you're promoting. If you think merchandise aside, we should
Speaker 1: turn this this act heal and you don't do it.
Speaker 1: I just I'm not Yeah, I'm not a I'm not
Speaker 1: a believer in that. I think you have to do
Speaker 1: what's best for the wrestling product itself and let the
Speaker 1: merch money fallward. It may. I just you know, if
Speaker 1: they look at their per cat merch sales at live events.
Speaker 1: I just think people go to the show with fifty
Speaker 1: bucks or one hundred bucks and go, I'm willing to
Speaker 1: spend this, and they're going to spend it on you
Speaker 1: know something, And yes, they might buy a Bucks T shirt,
Speaker 1: but if it's not available or their heels, they're gonna
Speaker 1: buy a Mox T shirt or Cody T shirt or whoever.
Speaker 3: So anyway, unless you go to.
Speaker 2: The Awa Easter Spectacular with money to buy a T
Speaker 2: shirt and like Greg Gania looks like the Hulk in
Speaker 2: his because it's a weird green T shirt and all
Speaker 2: of the T shirts are terrible.
Speaker 1: Sorry at a flashback, Wow, that is quite the flashback.
Speaker 2: Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
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Speaker 1: So to speaking of some of the slop is something
Speaker 1: kind of the sloppiness of the product.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Jim Ross is the leader in pointing it out, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's a contributor to a degree with the mispronouncing
Speaker 1: the names, although he was a little self deprecating, which
Speaker 1: was in self aware, which was nice on last night's
Speaker 1: show about that joking not even I can misidentify the Bundy.
Speaker 1: But but you know, he's pointing out, you know, the
Speaker 1: tags and who's legal, and he's pointing out you know,
Speaker 1: wrestlers more and more worried about striking their signature pose
Speaker 1: in the middle of a match as opposed to winning
Speaker 1: a match.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, did I hate the finish of the
Speaker 3: Best Friends match?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 1: And Ross did too, and you could tell because he
Speaker 1: put it out. So there's and you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's just lots of weird little things. And again you
Speaker 1: can kind of get, you know, down a rabbit hole
Speaker 1: of doesn't really matter that Adam Page's picture of beer
Speaker 1: magically appeared out of nowhere when he walked into the
Speaker 1: hallway with with a with a plastic cup and suddenly
Speaker 1: you do that, w Yes, I just to me, like
Speaker 1: they should just pan the camera down, and there's Marco
Speaker 1: Stump handing it to him like that would I've had.
Speaker 3: To tell my girlfriend that before. I don't know where
Speaker 3: this came from.
Speaker 1: So there's there's weird sloppiness like and again like last
Speaker 1: week where Joey Genealogist happened to be sitting in the
Speaker 1: exact spot that Penelope and Kip Saviian were killed.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I didn't like that at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So they're doing things that are just a little
Speaker 1: too cute by half when you can explain them away
Speaker 1: if you put a little extra thought into it. And
Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to keep pointing that stuff out. Some
Speaker 1: people think it doesn't matter, or it's nitpicking, or you're
Speaker 1: taking the fun out of it. I just I just
Speaker 1: think you've clean up your product. You you want to
Speaker 1: have a a professional product. And part of it, to
Speaker 1: me is not that it's in and of itself is
Speaker 1: a big deal, but it's symptomatic of a sloppiness otherwise.
Speaker 1: You know, I mean a food analogy, if a chef
Speaker 1: that you're if you're at a restaurant on the cook er,
Speaker 1: chef walks out and out of the kitchen and his
Speaker 1: fly is down and his shirt's on backwards and he's
Speaker 1: sweating and there's you know, food on his nose. You're
Speaker 1: just like, oh God, what's going on in the kitchen
Speaker 1: that I'm not seeing? And do I really want to
Speaker 1: eat here? And I'm with aw. There's certain just weird
Speaker 1: things that happen that you would think of and that
Speaker 1: someone with an eye for the product would would clean
Speaker 1: up first. And then you just think, what is this
Speaker 1: symptomatic of behind the scenes in terms of the cohesion
Speaker 1: and vision and execution of the booking? And I think
Speaker 1: there are signs there that this product should be better
Speaker 1: than it is and it should be cleaned up a
Speaker 1: little bit. And I don't know if it is because
Speaker 1: they have you know this this weird as Tony contact
Speaker 1: with me about on the eve of Dynamite's debut, you know,
Speaker 1: well we just communicate by you know, Bucks are out,
Speaker 1: Kelly and Kenny's up in Canada, and Cody's over here
Speaker 1: and we're all just you know, kind of getting together
Speaker 1: once a week and piecing together a script. It kind
Speaker 1: of feels that way sometimes that there isn't that one
Speaker 1: cohesive vision and I don't know. I mean, does that
Speaker 1: is that a problem Jason? If so on a one
Speaker 1: to ten scale, real minor or real serious, I.
Speaker 2: Right now to their audience, it's probably well, I mean
Speaker 2: a three big picture. I think it's something to be
Speaker 2: concerned by. And I wouldn't be surprised at all. I
Speaker 2: don't know this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it
Speaker 2: bothers the hell out of some people who are involved
Speaker 2: in that creative process and others kind of have a
Speaker 2: different vision and don't think it matters, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's going to happen when you have so many different
Speaker 2: people taking part in this creative process. And I do
Speaker 2: I mean, I just see. And maybe it's because he's
Speaker 2: paying more attention to his own stuff, but I don't
Speaker 2: see this level of clumsiness when it comes to what
Speaker 2: Cody is doing, for instance, or Jericho is doing.
Speaker 3: And you know, and so, but I don't know who's
Speaker 3: booking what.
Speaker 2: I think that would be fascinating to find out if
Speaker 2: is all of this, can you trace all of it
Speaker 2: back to one or two people or is it no,
Speaker 2: that's just you know, collaborative and and this is just.
Speaker 1: Happening in my interview Cody year and a half ago,
Speaker 1: he said, you know, the Bucks have their ironic approach
Speaker 1: to wrestling style, and it's not my style, you know,
Speaker 1: he said, He's more traditional. You have Cody saying recently
Speaker 1: that watching Dynamite should be all you have to watch,
Speaker 1: you know, the shoulder content.
Speaker 3: It should be.
Speaker 1: It should be and it's not even close. And I
Speaker 1: don't know who's keeping track to that.
Speaker 2: I mean, what they need to hire someone for quality
Speaker 2: control in a major way, not just for the shows
Speaker 2: and the YouTube shows and all of that, but just
Speaker 2: to clean up some of the things we're talking about.
Speaker 2: I think the right person, could, you know, I mean
Speaker 2: the key would be what it matter? Would the people
Speaker 2: in charge actually go, hey, you're right, let's fix this,
Speaker 2: or or do they just yeah, we don't care about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I mean I will just say whether they
Speaker 1: care or not, they should, you know, they object, I
Speaker 1: think for the pride of having a better product. I mean,
Speaker 1: Brandy Rhoads, you watch you know, the Road to Cleveland
Speaker 1: and there's a session with a therapist. Then you watch
Speaker 1: a r What No, I didn't, Yeah exactly, Well you're right,
Speaker 1: and then you watch aw Dark.
Speaker 3: Here here's my approach.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if now this week I just simply ran out
Speaker 2: of time, I will use I'll read reports on Dark
Speaker 2: because I just don't I mean, there's so much content
Speaker 2: and I'm not you know, if somebody wants to watch
Speaker 2: Dark and enjoy it, awesome for me. I just you know,
Speaker 2: there's something has to give. And I'm covering so many shows.
Speaker 2: That's not one of them I'm covering. And so if
Speaker 2: there's something that I feel like, oh, I need to
Speaker 2: see this, then I'll go back and kind of you know,
Speaker 2: skip ahead to that part on YouTube. I used to
Speaker 2: watch The Road Toos. They've not a good job of
Speaker 2: marketing that. It was like, oh, that's back. I had
Speaker 2: no idea. So yeah, I mean, I'm kind of that
Speaker 2: person who buy and law just watching Dynamite and there's
Speaker 2: so many things I'm like, like the whole Nightmare collective thing,
Speaker 2: like how has this not been explained on the show?
Speaker 2: How is Dark not mentioned on Dynamite on a regular basis?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of that person that is doing what
Speaker 2: Cody said you could do, and unfortunately he was inaccurate.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the thing, and so they go to the
Speaker 1: trouble of of you know, Brandy's producing these these segments
Speaker 1: with her therapist, and I'm like, the amount of time
Speaker 1: that it took to produce that segment that doesn't get
Speaker 1: acknowledged on Dynamite for two weeks in a row. And
Speaker 1: then she comes and then we have the awesome Cang
Speaker 1: attack and was that referenced on Dynamite No? Nope. So
Speaker 1: and then you have Brandy showing up as the wife
Speaker 1: of Cody minus all the hair snippin' spooky stuff whatever
Speaker 1: she was doing, the cult like stuff, and we don't
Speaker 1: get an explanation for that either. It's it's I mean,
Speaker 1: if Vince Russell was doing this, people, there would be
Speaker 1: way more people mock you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 1: the aw's in this honeymoon period where there's these things
Speaker 1: happening and people are like, yeah, but this is cool
Speaker 1: and that's cool and they've got goodwill and they're cool
Speaker 1: people and I'm rooting for them, But there I think
Speaker 1: it's it's not serving them that there aren't people being
Speaker 1: more critical of some of this, just shoddy continuums of characters.
Speaker 1: The time it took for Brandy to put those segments
Speaker 1: together that have amounted to nothing, So far. If instead
Speaker 1: she read over the script and had an active role
Speaker 1: behind the scenes being the quality control person like that
Speaker 1: would be a much better use of Tony Kahn's money
Speaker 1: for her. Then these segments that are on two different
Speaker 1: shoulder content shows that end up being contradicted or not
Speaker 1: acknowledged at least yet. Maybe they'll tie it all together
Speaker 1: in the next week or two, but so far they haven't.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's where in aw dark has been one
Speaker 1: of the bigger disappointments, you know. I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: throwing together some matches that they taped the six days earlier,
Speaker 1: and they're not and they're not hyping dynamite. That should
Speaker 1: be a vehicle to get an extra fifty or one
Speaker 1: hundred thousand people to watch on TNT who might skip
Speaker 1: it or might otherwise be watching NXT, and they're not
Speaker 1: taking advantage of that. I just it does kind of
Speaker 1: it blows my mind. It is an option they're reaching
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and they're not taking advantage of it.
Speaker 2: Take two minutes out of the show to do a
Speaker 2: quick recap video and in some weeks if there's not
Speaker 2: enough justify two minutes, fine, dude, ninety second whatever. But
Speaker 2: just they tell us what's happening on that show if
Speaker 2: it's supposed to matter, and yeah, they don't do that.
Speaker 2: It's so rare that they even acknowledge that that show
Speaker 2: exists on Dynamite. It's strange to me. I don't understand
Speaker 2: why you wouldn't. I don't understand why you'd run angles
Speaker 2: on that show and then have no follow up whatsoever
Speaker 2: on the Actually yeah, I mean, I know they've kind
Speaker 2: of talked about Dynamite or Dark kind of being like, well,
Speaker 2: we need to get a lot of people some reps
Speaker 2: and things like that, because you know they're not letting
Speaker 2: a lot of their talent work elsewhere. Okay, the then
Speaker 2: leave it dark. If this is what you're gonna do, thin,
Speaker 2: just have a bunch of truly dark matches.
Speaker 1: You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Speaker 1: Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Speaker 1: Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
Speaker 1: out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
Speaker 1: SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
Speaker 1: you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
Speaker 1: and it will also analyze key segments and give my
Speaker 1: random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.
Speaker 1: So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
Speaker 1: at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
Speaker 1: cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
Speaker 1: detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you
Speaker 1: can find other TV reports from other contributors to pw
Speaker 1: torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
Speaker 1: it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV
Speaker 1: and pay review written records. AW Dark, I mean it's doing,
Speaker 1: you know, around two hundred and fifty thousand views, give
Speaker 1: or take. That's down, you know from where they were
Speaker 1: in November and December. You know they were hitting four
Speaker 1: four hundred plus five, you know, close to five hundred
Speaker 1: thousand for aw Dark not long ago. I think people
Speaker 1: have disconnected because if you watch an episode and you think, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, something happened here, I'm glad I spent an
Speaker 1: hour watching this, and then you tune into Dynamite and
Speaker 1: it gets ignored. You start not thinking it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's weird. It just it's it seems
Speaker 1: like at some point Tony Knicam needs to kind of
Speaker 1: step back and go, let's just give a fresh look
Speaker 1: to everything we're doing and try to aim everything in
Speaker 1: the right direction.
Speaker 2: So, well, have they lost interest maybe already in Dark
Speaker 2: to some extent because of the new show they're going
Speaker 2: to be doing for TNT.
Speaker 1: Well, wouldn't that be all the more to making our
Speaker 1: relevant and build the brand up as important? Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like I I mean, where i'd spend
Speaker 1: the money if I may a w I mean, if
Speaker 1: there's a difference maker they can hire, you know, yes,
Speaker 1: do that, uh with with if you have a sort
Speaker 1: of a in your mind a salary cap But I
Speaker 1: mean I would hire someone to just be your efficiency
Speaker 1: expert and look at everything you're doing and have the
Speaker 1: respect hopefully of the team with power the EVPs, et cetera,
Speaker 1: and go, hey, let's let's put in and hire another
Speaker 1: video producer, you know what, Jerry Borish type who is
Speaker 1: just gonna put the time into put together really good
Speaker 1: video packages on Dark in the road to because they're
Speaker 1: capable of it. We see it with Cody, but we
Speaker 1: don't and to a degree with Brandy. You see this
Speaker 1: this elbow grease being put in on some of these features,
Speaker 1: but not it's not happening with enough others. You know,
Speaker 1: we get Darby doing is sort of you know, handheld
Speaker 1: what does Darby do when he's not on TV? Stuff
Speaker 1: which is at you know, interesting window into his life,
Speaker 1: and those are fine. Those don't always make it out
Speaker 1: of dynamite either. So this is I enjoy a w
Speaker 1: This is a fan of the product they're putting out,
Speaker 1: pointing things out that I think one would make the
Speaker 1: product better and two that I think from an analyst standpoint,
Speaker 1: are are are symptoms of something that isn't where it
Speaker 1: should be four and a half months into their TV
Speaker 1: run and you know, a year and a year plus
Speaker 1: into them as a company.
Speaker 2: No, you're doing a disservice to do anything different. Oh,
Speaker 2: everything is wonderful and let's move on. I mean that
Speaker 2: that's I hear that on some show and I'm just
Speaker 2: like baffled by, Like, no, you know, naturally any show.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's it's rare you find a flawless pro
Speaker 2: wrestling show. I mean, I really like this week's n XT,
Speaker 2: but even that, like, okay, maybe the the non title
Speaker 2: cruiserweight match went a little longer than it needed to.
Speaker 2: But I mean, there's just a little too much of
Speaker 2: everything's wonderful because as you said, they're in that honeymoon
Speaker 2: phase with some people.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh, And I was, you know, picking on on
Speaker 1: AW for some of the you know, nonsense stuff, even
Speaker 1: just you know, I noticing that WWB does better than
Speaker 1: AW by watching a double you you know, there's just
Speaker 1: there's there's things, and it makes the product sometimes more
Speaker 1: sterile and predictable, but in other ways it makes the
Speaker 1: product seem more professional and and smooth.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Even the way Britt Baker turned her back in air,
Speaker 1: the referee in brit Baker turned their back at an
Speaker 1: awkward angle so she could be attacked by from behind
Speaker 1: or not Brit who is her opponent, so Brick could
Speaker 1: attack her from behindak he thank you, yes and and uh.
Speaker 1: The referee raised her hand and they were standing at
Speaker 1: an awkward angle so that Brick could attack them sideways
Speaker 1: and not see it coming. It's like you'll never see
Speaker 1: another hatch on AW where the rest are celebrate by
Speaker 1: looking at a forty five degree angle away from the
Speaker 1: hard camera. But they did it because they didn't think
Speaker 1: to have Britt actually attack him from opposite the hard
Speaker 1: camera from behind, and so you see, you know, and
Speaker 1: whatever Kenny was doing when he set up however many
Speaker 1: spots he did in last night's match, he's like, here's
Speaker 1: my hand, here's my hand, here's my foot. Now now
Speaker 1: kick me on the thigh. Like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: things where if you're just objectively looking at it, that
Speaker 1: stuff doesn't happen on double w W product because somebody backstage,
Speaker 1: including Vince, is gonna yell at them, or Triple H
Speaker 1: and NX he's gonna yell at him, or Terry Taylor
Speaker 1: or whomever, gonna go that didn't look good, stop doing that.
Speaker 1: And nobody's doing that in AW. I feel like there's
Speaker 1: this bubble insulation to honest criticism because people are buying
Speaker 1: their own press.
Speaker 3: Yeah well said, yeah, all right.
Speaker 1: Well, as far as the lashing angle goes, I thought
Speaker 1: it worked really well. It was it a little self indulgent,
Speaker 1: a little over the top. That's Cody, you know, And
Speaker 1: I actually think you can say, you know, that's a
Speaker 1: little too much, but I think it works for Cody,
Speaker 1: and it's reflective. It is symptomatic of how seriously he
Speaker 1: takes himself and I'm for that as long as there's
Speaker 1: some introspection and you know, a willingness to listen to
Speaker 1: some critiques or criticism. But I think when Cody's out there,
Speaker 1: it's a major leagu product, and I think it's a
Speaker 1: result of him being in WWE, frankly for a long
Speaker 1: time and seeing how it works. And Jericho's segments are
Speaker 1: really good because he's he's been around long enough to
Speaker 1: see how this works on a major league level and
Speaker 1: the other guys haven't been And I think sometimes that shows.
Speaker 3: I think it does. Yeah, I do think.
Speaker 2: I mean I laugh every time he makes his entrance
Speaker 2: because it is key compared to some of the others,
Speaker 2: and it's just so over the top. But he's a
Speaker 2: top guy and you know, if someone's going to have
Speaker 2: that entrance, it should be him. But it still does
Speaker 2: crack me up. But the idea of that being self indulgent.
Speaker 2: If anyone's really critiquing this too much, I just say,
Speaker 2: go back and look at the crowd. When is the
Speaker 2: last time you've seen a live crowd not just on
Speaker 2: the main floor for the first couple of rows, but
Speaker 2: for a twenty minute angle. People like with good seats
Speaker 2: and you know, off the first level standing. I mean
Speaker 2: people were standing throughout that segment. They were into this,
Speaker 2: and I think that speaks volumes about it. I thought
Speaker 2: it was really well done. Yeah, I mean there's there's.
Speaker 3: Things I would tweak about it.
Speaker 2: I think they should have done a better job of
Speaker 2: communicating in advance that it's not a gimme that this
Speaker 2: match happens, because I had that feeling washing it, you know,
Speaker 2: going in, like, Okay, Cody's going to take his ten lashes.
Speaker 2: They were telling the story that Cody's got to get
Speaker 2: through this in order to get that match, but I
Speaker 2: never really felt like they told that story in advance.
Speaker 3: They kind of told it as it was happening.
Speaker 1: No, that's a good point because there's a point where
Speaker 1: Mgf's like, you know, give me your belt. I don't
Speaker 1: want to waste mine on you, and everyone at home
Speaker 1: is going, why would Cody listen to this jerk? Tell
Speaker 1: MGF take off your own damn belt. But he can't
Speaker 1: because as MGF yelled him, do you want this match
Speaker 1: or not? And he yelled that as Cody was taking
Speaker 1: the belt off. But it would have been you know,
Speaker 1: maybe slightly better for Cody to hesitate, and then MGFF
Speaker 1: to say do you want this match? And then Cody
Speaker 1: kind of resigns himself to having to do what MGF says,
Speaker 1: and then you're right. The announcers in the storyline and
Speaker 1: MGF shouting at him is do you want this match
Speaker 1: or not? He had to take all ten lashes for
Speaker 1: the match to happen, and they could have done a better.
Speaker 3: Job of that.
Speaker 1: I think that's actually the best critique of how the
Speaker 1: angle was built up and executed is just be a
Speaker 1: little more clear of that.
Speaker 3: But they really did leave me looking forward to the match,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's the guy took ten severe
Speaker 2: lashes and he's taking him from a really really strong heel.
Speaker 2: So I mean, and Cody is as over as anyone
Speaker 2: with that audience. Yeah, I mean, how do you not
Speaker 2: get into this? I think they did a hell of
Speaker 2: a job of building this up.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 8: I'm Kelly Wells, host of p WT Talks NXT, the
Speaker 8: longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Speaker 8: Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night,
Speaker 8: just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the
Speaker 8: bad and the ugly on the way to becoming a
Speaker 8: star in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or
Speaker 8: stream later wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Moxley Jericho also a really good grade. I mean I
Speaker 1: just saying one one annoyance in this. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Chris Jericho as good as he's been. So we
Speaker 2: see his his sidekick Santana gets stabbed in the eye
Speaker 2: with car keys, and Jericho goes cutesy on it and says,
Speaker 2: who would do this? That's something that you're going to
Speaker 2: get laughs with and that I didn't when you're sitting
Speaker 2: when a guy's sitting there selling that his eye may
Speaker 2: have been gouged out. I just didn't think that was
Speaker 2: the time for Jericho to get all cute with it,
Speaker 2: you know, being hypocritical, because he did the same thing
Speaker 2: to mox Ley and so he says, who would do this?
Speaker 2: I didn't care for that. That did irk me watching it.
Speaker 2: And it's too bad because I've like, damn near everything
Speaker 2: Jericho has done in a w so far.
Speaker 1: Well, i'd like to hear the announcers just rebut retort, hey,
Speaker 1: you you who are you to say that? And then
Speaker 1: it becomes less cute and more. The babyface anouncer calls
Speaker 1: out Jericho on try to gaslight people with an alternate reality.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just I don't think he should have went there.
Speaker 3: I mean, just.
Speaker 2: Counter it went against the tone of that angle, and
Speaker 2: I didn't care for it for that reason. But I
Speaker 2: did like the promo that Santana delivered. It's kind of
Speaker 2: funny just kind of seeing some of the reactions today
Speaker 2: from people that are so surprised that he cut a
Speaker 2: good promo. It wasn't even like one of his best promos.
Speaker 2: He was on you when he was given the mic.
Speaker 2: An impact wrestling wasn't often, but boy, toward the end
Speaker 2: there and they were getting the mic more. He was
Speaker 2: on fire. And Ortiz is a good talker too, and
Speaker 2: I don't think people realize that. And that's something you know,
Speaker 2: I've been saying since they signed, like, I don't want
Speaker 2: to see these guys as henchmen. They can speak for themselves. Yes,
Speaker 2: con ended a lot of talking, but they can both talk.
Speaker 2: And so I thought that was a good promo. But
Speaker 2: if people were impressed by that, sit tight, I mean,
Speaker 2: you're gonna be a lot more impressed when this guy
Speaker 2: really has something he could sink his teeth into.
Speaker 1: Early on with AW I think one of the defenses
Speaker 1: for not letting people show everything they could do we're
Speaker 1: featuring them was well, hey, we're in this for the
Speaker 1: long haul. You know, we got to save some things.
Speaker 1: And I was thinking, oh, you know, they're saving Kenny's
Speaker 1: signature singles, matches and aren't just walking brawls for you know,
Speaker 1: at some point, they're saving really introducing the bucks to
Speaker 1: a national audience and what they're all about. At another stage,
Speaker 1: and sent Ortiz, You're like, well, maybe they're saving that.
Speaker 1: There's a time to do it. It's not now, but
Speaker 1: it'll come, and enough time has gone by where you're
Speaker 1: I'm starting to wonder are they saving stuff or is
Speaker 1: it just not crossing their mind that they haven't done
Speaker 1: this yet and it would be a good idea to
Speaker 1: do it, you know, in terms of not to be
Speaker 1: not to get on a Kenny discussion, but you know,
Speaker 1: have Kenny Omega have two or three matches. So these
Speaker 1: people who I hear from often who are like, I
Speaker 1: heard how great Kenny was. Never watched his new Japan stuff,
Speaker 1: just didn't But now he's on a weekly national cable
Speaker 1: series with a bunch of English speaking promos in a
Speaker 1: format that I'm more used to, and I'm absolutely willing
Speaker 1: to buy all in on this. I don't get him.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen what he does yet, and so, you know,
Speaker 1: and then sent ten ortis, let's kind of lead into
Speaker 1: that is their reputation and their body of work is great,
Speaker 1: and they're just standing in the background. They are, you know,
Speaker 1: the new version of Rowan and Harper standing behind bray Wyatt,
Speaker 1: not getting really any time to, you know, for a
Speaker 1: harp of to show what he can do, and he's
Speaker 1: being able to utilize. At some point it's not well,
Speaker 1: we're saving it for when it matters. At some point
Speaker 1: you start to worry do they even know what they
Speaker 1: have or are they too preoccupied with certain things, including
Speaker 1: themselves and not putting the time and effort into letting
Speaker 1: these other guys showcase what they can do. And it
Speaker 1: is nice to see the beginning of that now with
Speaker 1: last night's show with senten on.
Speaker 2: RTIs definitely you know, I think I can get it
Speaker 2: with them. I think people know, Hey, they're really good wrestlers.
Speaker 2: They have these really good matches with the pinting On
Speaker 2: and Phoenix and all of that. This isn't These guys
Speaker 2: were all over WWE television. How did you miss this?
Speaker 2: They did some promos on Impact and I watch it.
Speaker 2: I don't know how many other people are actually watching it,
Speaker 2: and so I can see that one got to slipping
Speaker 2: through the crack.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I think they're doing a nice job
Speaker 1: setting up the top handful of matches at Revolutions.
Speaker 2: So and by the way, hopefully we'll get that Kenny
Speaker 2: match now that they've announced the Ironman match, the pack
Speaker 2: exactly we need to see that. I'm totally with the
Speaker 2: people who have just kind of been underwhelmed so far
Speaker 2: by him in aew and I've seen his work in Japan.
Speaker 2: He's better than this, and we just were waiting for
Speaker 2: that match, and quite frankly, the first time they had
Speaker 2: it was underwhelming, and I know they weren't happy with it.
Speaker 2: They ended up kind of running out of time. So
Speaker 2: we're still waiting for that real standout match. And I'm
Speaker 2: hoping with this being framed as a thirty minute Iron
Speaker 2: Man match, that's what they have in mind.
Speaker 3: I just do.
Speaker 1: Since they sat down with a twenty week chart and said,
Speaker 1: all right, here's our you know, top six acts, and
Speaker 1: here's how we're going to make sure that by the
Speaker 1: time we get to you know, the third, fourth, fifth month,
Speaker 1: after twenty weeks of programming, that these are all stars
Speaker 1: because we've deliberately plotted out how we're going to feature
Speaker 1: them and get them in shine a spotlight on their strengths.
Speaker 1: And that's just I'm sorry, but pointing a camera at
Speaker 1: the ring and having the young bucks go out there
Speaker 1: and do dives and kicks is going to absolutely satisfy
Speaker 1: a big part of the fan base, but it is
Speaker 1: absolutely not enough to bring in the maximum possible fan
Speaker 1: base for that for that team and what they can do.
Speaker 1: And Kenny, I mean, what do you point to with
Speaker 1: him as the signature usage of television to get him
Speaker 1: over as a start to this new audience of a
Speaker 1: million people? And there's over a million people watching once
Speaker 1: you add seven day viewership here. That's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who never watch Kenny in New Japan. And what
Speaker 1: have they done other than kind of you know, ex
Speaker 1: caliber saying oh, you know, the regardless of grad he
Speaker 1: was the rest of the year a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: people want to see it. So I just that's it.
Speaker 1: Justsppoint at AWS. I just don't think they sat down
Speaker 1: and really plot it out. I think they're just kind
Speaker 1: of there's a sense of I hear about this long
Speaker 1: term planning, and I think there's some long term planning
Speaker 1: with storylines, but not the marketing of the acts and
Speaker 1: doing so in a sophisticated way with you know, like
Speaker 1: even the last about on NXT, the finn Baller Johnny
Speaker 1: Arganda segment, the split screen interview, you gotta find I
Speaker 1: don't think I should say you gotta, but I think
Speaker 1: it helps you if you shake up the ways that
Speaker 1: you present, how your talent talks to each other in
Speaker 1: front of a match. And NXT has all these different
Speaker 1: ways in W two, and all kinds of companies have,
Speaker 1: but there's all these different ways to do it, and
Speaker 1: I just don't sense there's that visionary in AW who's
Speaker 1: really excited about that and putting this polished product out
Speaker 1: every week. I think there's a sense of, you know,
Speaker 1: we're gonna make this, as Cody said, a two hour
Speaker 1: party in the ring and aim the camera at the ring,
Speaker 1: and some weeks are better than others, but there's not enough,
Speaker 1: as I say, kind of elbow grease to add kind
Speaker 1: of pizaz and shake up the way the wrestlers are presented,
Speaker 1: and you know, like a little bit of Darby Allen
Speaker 1: with a flame thrower. That's sort of what I mean
Speaker 1: is just show us who these people are a little
Speaker 1: bit more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can, for the love of a guy, can
Speaker 2: the best Friends do something beyond Hey? They hugg wants
Speaker 2: a match and they're just one example of just how
Speaker 2: thin some of the character development's been. And they've been
Speaker 2: doing that since Ring of Honor. They've been doing it
Speaker 2: since before Ring of Honor and nothing has changed. And
Speaker 2: you know they're maybe they're not going to be, you know,
Speaker 2: the faces of your company, but they should still have
Speaker 2: and they're just one example. There should be more depth
Speaker 2: than that when it comes to their characters.
Speaker 1: Chuck Taylor's got a great Twitter feed, He's got a
Speaker 1: personality and you have to read into his body language
Speaker 1: walking to the ring to have any clue what he's
Speaker 1: all about. Or you can watch you know, the Road
Speaker 1: to Special and find out you know about his history
Speaker 1: a little bit. But you shouldn't have to, right is
Speaker 1: that the thing? You know? You shouldn't have to On
Speaker 1: the NXT front, what did you, Well, I don't want
Speaker 1: to some people like you're bearing the lead on the
Speaker 1: flag ship alveteen dreamas back. What'd you think of his
Speaker 1: return last night?
Speaker 3: I liked it.
Speaker 2: I thought it was energetic, you know, a little bit
Speaker 2: alread he's beating up four guys at once, but so
Speaker 2: be it, you know it was I thought it came
Speaker 2: off well. I was thinking killer Cross maybe when they
Speaker 2: started teasing it lest lat week and then and Jake
Speaker 2: Burnett pointed out, like no with the three and the
Speaker 2: glasses anywhere, like ah, So I did kind of figure,
Speaker 2: you know, thanks to Jake, I kind of had an
Speaker 2: idea of where this was going. So I wasn't surprised
Speaker 2: by it, but I thought it was well done. I
Speaker 2: had the crowd seemed to like it. You know, he
Speaker 2: was kind of all over the place, but it was
Speaker 2: a high energy return for the Albertine Dream.
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Speaker 1: we talk about NXT's ratings compared to AW in September,
Speaker 1: we were talking about velveteen Dream being a significant player
Speaker 1: who would factor in, and he hasn't yet and now
Speaker 1: he's back. Is he somebody who when we Because I
Speaker 1: think the AW star power at the top has been
Speaker 1: stronger than NXT's in a kind of an objective way.
Speaker 1: If you're not already super invested in Tomaso Champa or Cargano,
Speaker 1: even when you had Finn Ballard to the mix, I
Speaker 1: think the AW stars and part of it is the
Speaker 1: setting and the novelty of the new company. But Cody
Speaker 1: and Jericho and Moxie, I just think their top guys
Speaker 1: this far in have seemed like bigger stars, and now
Speaker 1: NXT is closing that gap. You know, Charlotte's sort of
Speaker 1: a paying a visit. We'll see how how long that is.
Speaker 1: But Finn Ballard being there and now having velveteen Dream back,
Speaker 1: I mean, do you agree with that premise, Jason? That
Speaker 1: aew to the general public who's deciding between two brands,
Speaker 1: especially if they're WWB loyalists or laps fans to a degree,
Speaker 1: looks at AW Dynamite and sees Jericho and Moxley and
Speaker 1: Cody perhaps in that order, and says those are bigger
Speaker 1: stars than NXT's top stars of Adam cole Or collectively
Speaker 1: Undisputed Era and Tomasso Champa, Johnny Garcano, even Finn Balor
Speaker 1: and now velveteen Dream coming on the scene. I just
Speaker 1: think if you look at the top three, four X
Speaker 1: and AW, it probably has an advantage.
Speaker 2: In terms of the general public perception probably and I
Speaker 2: think a really big advantage that it has is those
Speaker 2: guys are there's that cool.
Speaker 3: Factor with that younger demographic that.
Speaker 2: Those guys, Kenny Omega, the young bucks that those guys have,
Speaker 2: that they've managed to tap into that younger demographic that
Speaker 2: NXT just for whatever reason, hasn't quite clicked with. I've
Speaker 2: talked about this a little bit, my theory on it
Speaker 2: in part. I mean, there's it's not just any one reason,
Speaker 2: but I think some of it is every generation kind
Speaker 2: of wants their own thing and wrestling. You don't really
Speaker 2: get it with companies per se, because you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: there's not that many that come and go at least
Speaker 2: on a national stage. But you see it with wrestlers,
Speaker 2: you see it with you. If your dad was a
Speaker 2: big Stone Cold Steve Austin fan, you might appreciate him,
Speaker 2: but you're gonna want your own guy that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: and I think AW has some of that going for
Speaker 2: them where they don't.
Speaker 3: NXT.
Speaker 2: It would be reaching this same audience if there was
Speaker 2: no such thing as AEW, because that would become their thing.
Speaker 2: And I think it was for a lot of people.
Speaker 2: But now that AW exists, it's new. I think people
Speaker 2: appreciate that. I think they like seeing something start in
Speaker 2: the beginning that they can call their own that isn't
Speaker 2: a Vince mcman run company.
Speaker 1: I think that NXT and AW Beach have a cool factor.
Speaker 1: NXT is handcuffed a little bit by being under the
Speaker 1: WWE corporate umbrella, but the perception of Triple H and
Speaker 1: Company having an independence, and frankly Jericho's pushing fifty, Cody's
Speaker 1: in his mid thirties, Moxley's had a really nice five
Speaker 1: plus year run on top. You look at NXT, velveteen Dream,
Speaker 1: Tomaso Champa, Keith Lee, Matt Riddle, Adam Cole, just Undisputter.
Speaker 1: In general, that's actually kind of more the if you
Speaker 1: want your own generation of wrestlers, you can make the
Speaker 1: case NXT has room to grow in that demographic because
Speaker 1: those are actually wrestlers who haven't made evented WrestleManias in
Speaker 1: wwepay Produce before, whereas you know, aw IS is built
Speaker 1: around at least two guys who have in Jericho and Moxley,
Speaker 1: with with certainly Cody being in that mix two and
Speaker 1: Pop being an X Doo Twoe guy. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I think you can make a case either way, which
Speaker 1: is why it's not a complete slam dunk. I mean,
Speaker 1: in the male eighteen to thirty four demo last night,
Speaker 1: n XT to a point one eight aew one point
Speaker 1: twenty nine. That's not a two to one or three
Speaker 1: to one margin. And the lead isn't that much better
Speaker 1: when you add the thirty five to forty nine year olds,
Speaker 1: or the lead's not that much different point five zero
Speaker 1: to point three zero. So there's actually a slightly bigger
Speaker 1: lead for a w among the thirty five to forty
Speaker 1: nine year old males than there is among eighteen to
Speaker 1: thirty four, And I think that is because of the
Speaker 1: age of Jericho when Moxley and Cody, so they have
Speaker 1: a cool factor in youth with Samy Gavara and Darby
Speaker 1: Allen and the Young Bucks for that matter.
Speaker 3: Jurassic Express, Orange Cassidy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, so for everyone you throw out from NXT,
Speaker 2: I think you can go deeper on the AEW card
Speaker 2: and say, you know, they still they have that same upsick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so, I Mike, I guess kind of the point
Speaker 1: I'm getting at is it's not a clear cut advantage
Speaker 1: in both ways. There's just differences between the two of them.
Speaker 1: But if both shows just go forward with what they have,
Speaker 1: they're not Neither roster looks like it's in risk of
Speaker 1: being stale in the next year or two. I think
Speaker 1: aw's perception of pushing their top guys better than WWE
Speaker 1: did and Jericho when Moxley and Cody are in a
Speaker 1: better position than they were elsewhere, and NXT just is
Speaker 1: a really really well put together, well booked show with
Speaker 1: guys in their prime or entering their prime. So it
Speaker 1: is a fun matchup in that way. And both shows
Speaker 1: ratings went up last night, you know, nine hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty eight thousand, AW up one hundred thousand from the
Speaker 1: week before in live and same day viewership, and then
Speaker 1: NXT up from seven hundred twelve to seven seventy, although
Speaker 1: that seven seventy is tied with two weeks ago and
Speaker 1: the nine twenty eight is below where AAW was three
Speaker 1: weeks ago, so it's not like this big boom, but
Speaker 1: there was a decline for a couple of weeks, and
Speaker 1: both shows have rebounded in part with obviously NXT pushing
Speaker 1: Charlotte showing up and AW. What do you think is
Speaker 1: it attributes to dropping for four weeks in a row
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the year and then actually five
Speaker 1: weeks in a row they dropped. They went from nine
Speaker 1: to sixty seven to nine forty seven to ninety one
Speaker 1: to eight seventy one to twenty eight. I look at
Speaker 1: those numbers, it's a little concerning if I'm AAW. They
Speaker 1: rebounded a little bit or quite a bit in the
Speaker 1: three day delayed viewership, so that can kind of dampen
Speaker 1: some of the concern But now a good rebound in
Speaker 1: live viewership, to me, that's encouraging. What do you think
Speaker 1: about Is there something about last night show that did that?
Speaker 1: Was it the ten lashes? Was that the selling point?
Speaker 3: I think people love a good public whippen. I don't
Speaker 3: even know who else this up too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I ended up.
Speaker 2: I haven't been able to listen to h I know
Speaker 2: Jake was on the show with you, and I was
Speaker 2: only able to listen to a portion of it before
Speaker 2: Jake and I started talking today, so I don't know
Speaker 2: if he said this on here.
Speaker 3: He labeled it the Passion of the Cody phenomenal.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so yeah, I'm curious. I will look at
Speaker 1: minute by minutes when those become available and see if
Speaker 1: there was kind of a crescendo at the end. Not
Speaker 1: that NXT did and deliver a big main event with
Speaker 1: a nice payoff as we're talking about with Felvetein Dream
Speaker 1: at the end, but yeah, uhing interesting numbers, And I
Speaker 1: think for people who just want to see both shows
Speaker 1: succeed on Wednesday and the networks to be happy. Because
Speaker 1: as much as we spent a lot of time talking
Speaker 1: about the business side and business strategies and distribution models
Speaker 1: for network content and pay per views, I think in
Speaker 1: the immediate what people listening to us mostly care about
Speaker 1: is is there good wrestling that they can watch as
Speaker 1: a pastime on Monday Wednesday And Fridays, and you know
Speaker 1: tuesdays to a degree too, And I think viewership not
Speaker 1: dropping another week in a row, but actually going up
Speaker 1: significantly shows nobody. We're seeing a longer set of data
Speaker 1: now that makes even a five week downward trend like
Speaker 1: AW had seem less alarming, especially when you get the
Speaker 1: plus three numbers and you realize even if people don't
Speaker 1: watch it live, they tend to catch up within a
Speaker 1: few days.
Speaker 9: On Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling
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Speaker 2: How frustrated do you think Triple H, Shawn Michaels and
Speaker 2: the Folks are an NXT because I mean, I'm watching
Speaker 2: that show and almost we get a weekly there. It's
Speaker 2: very difficult for me to find misses in my weekly
Speaker 2: hit list. It's a very crisp, well booked show with
Speaker 2: really good wrestling, and they've given away it seems like,
Speaker 2: you know, they're not giving away tons of that're giving
Speaker 2: away enough and they're still behind.
Speaker 1: I think the arena setting is really interesting. If aw
Speaker 1: went on the road for six weeks and they just
Speaker 1: they just called it, I'm sorry, did I say, yeah,
Speaker 1: nxtus on the road for six weeks. If they went
Speaker 1: on the road and they just said, it's a spring tour.
Speaker 1: We're hitting you know, six of our favorite you know smart,
Speaker 1: we're hitting six more. I don't say favorite, you know
Speaker 1: we're hitting six markets. Uh, We're gonna go on the
Speaker 1: road for six weeks. But put an end date on
Speaker 1: it so that you can say face if you don't
Speaker 1: sell tickets or it takes a lot of papering, But
Speaker 1: just do a six week thing in March or April.
Speaker 1: And I wonder what would happen to viewership. You can't
Speaker 1: do it in one week because people won't know it's coming.
Speaker 1: It won't matter in two weeks, not enough data. But
Speaker 1: if you did a six week run. I mean, I
Speaker 1: was watching you know, Matt Riddle and and uh Pete
Speaker 1: done last night, and I'm just like, if they were
Speaker 1: in front of six thousand people instead of six hundred people.
Speaker 1: You don't give or take in a big arena of
Speaker 1: versus this awesome in of its setting, you know. And
Speaker 1: I really like Full Sale, but I liked it on
Speaker 1: deu B Network as a developmental brand, and it looks
Speaker 1: just good enough where it's not like a weekly thing
Speaker 1: for me to you know, it doesn't diminish my enjoyment
Speaker 1: of the show in a significant way watching on USA,
Speaker 1: but it's a factor when you imagine people flipping around
Speaker 1: or sampling the products. Aw even in Huntsville, where they
Speaker 1: weren't shy about showing the upper deck was empty in
Speaker 1: certain parts of the building, it just feels bigger. And
Speaker 1: therefore it's not so much how big the building feels,
Speaker 1: but how big the wrestlers feel in a smaller venue
Speaker 1: versus a bigger venue. And I just think it's hard
Speaker 1: to create a star out of Keith Lee, Tomaso Champa
Speaker 1: and Riddle and done on what they're doing. I think
Speaker 1: it's hard to turn them into stars in front of
Speaker 1: hundreds of people instead of thousands of people.
Speaker 2: Yes, I do think that's a fact. I love the
Speaker 2: idea of the Spring tour. I think that's great. I
Speaker 2: think that is exactly the way they should for himness. So,
Speaker 2: like you say, so you can say face if it
Speaker 2: doesn't work out out. They're also you know, I mean
Speaker 2: as much as Triple As just tried to fight this,
Speaker 2: they're still known to people as developmental brand. Does that
Speaker 2: play a part that it's somewhat minor league for WWE
Speaker 2: if you will, as good as it is. And also
Speaker 2: the notion that, okay, don't get you attached because some
Speaker 2: of these people are probably going to be called up,
Speaker 2: even if that's not really I mean, you're going to
Speaker 2: have movements that that's to be expected, and I think
Speaker 2: the rules have kind of changed, but it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that everyman out there knows this and they're just wondering, Okay,
Speaker 2: if I get attached to velove a team dream, you know, Grady,
Speaker 2: He's going to be gone up on the main roster
Speaker 2: and then I'll just see him on Monday nights or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's I think there It is a
Speaker 1: collage of factors that leads to different perceptions of n
Speaker 1: XT compare because I mean, I even have thought, what
Speaker 1: if they just called it WWE at XT instead of
Speaker 1: NXT on USA.
Speaker 2: Well, they do label it that way, by the way,
Speaker 2: if you don't know, they do label it that way
Speaker 2: now on the like the DirecTV on screen guide. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I know there was a week where all of
Speaker 2: a sudden everybody kind of had to if you had
Speaker 2: it set up to record weekly and to change that.
Speaker 1: So my my one, what I wonder is did that hurt?
Speaker 1: And I know it's baffling the people who listen to
Speaker 1: wrestling podcasts, although you got to know somebody, I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody knows people aren't is into wrestling and into it
Speaker 1: enough to listen to podcasts like this, and shame on
Speaker 1: them those people. But they're people who like to watch
Speaker 1: for a couple hours a week because they want to
Speaker 1: see Roman Reigns, or they want to see New Day,
Speaker 1: or they want to see Daniel Bryan, or they want
Speaker 1: to see the Fiend or whoever. But it's it's it's
Speaker 1: about certain stars, and it's about the big arena and
Speaker 1: it feels like a big deal, and you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's like going to the arena concert instead of the
Speaker 1: hotter band that's at the smaller venue. You know, you
Speaker 1: can you can judge people for having you know, bad
Speaker 1: taste or going with the mainstream corporate branding, but there's
Speaker 1: a reason those places fill buildings so I wonder if
Speaker 1: ending at WWE and doing a little bit more not
Speaker 1: not taking away triple H in company's autonomy, but the
Speaker 1: branding itself, blending it a little more, if that went
Speaker 1: to work ten xc's favor, there's some downside that offsets
Speaker 1: it because NXT has kind of a niche separate cool
Speaker 1: factor that comes from not being as much a part
Speaker 1: of the corporate branding. So I don't know, Jason, but
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's good that they're doing that
Speaker 1: for like search returns, you know, on on you know
Speaker 1: the way people search for programs now right, But if
Speaker 1: they overtly labeled it and had the w B logo
Speaker 1: and all that. I remember Kevin Dunne was in Paul Hayman.
Speaker 1: I think Paul Hayman and Kevin dun kind of but
Speaker 1: it heads on this with ECW. Should that to be logo,
Speaker 1: that stamp be in the corner of the screen during
Speaker 1: ECW on on Sci Fi? Or should it really seem
Speaker 1: like its own brand?
Speaker 3: That was an issue. I do remember that being a factor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, go.
Speaker 2: Ahead, Well, I was gonna say this is kind of
Speaker 2: an an out there. Well, I'm curious to know you
Speaker 2: think not that this is going to be a big
Speaker 2: factor for everyone, but could it be for some people
Speaker 2: that well, you know, I'm talking about how perfect and
Speaker 2: polished the NXT product can feel at times. Is there
Speaker 2: something about aew where you don't feel like you know
Speaker 2: what you're gonna get and you are kind of tuning
Speaker 2: in to see, are they gonna make a mistake here,
Speaker 2: they're gonna make a mistake, what's gonna be good?
Speaker 3: What's gonna be bad?
Speaker 2: Where it's more of a there's a little bit more
Speaker 2: of an event feel to it, where you don't want
Speaker 2: to miss it because it's Yeah, I mean, I don't
Speaker 2: think they should like go out of their way to
Speaker 2: make it that way. Obviously, they should try to present
Speaker 2: the best product they can. But I mean, could that
Speaker 2: be a little bit even without people thinking about that,
Speaker 2: could that be something in their minds that they're tuning
Speaker 2: in to c like, all right, the dark Order isn't working,
Speaker 2: We'll get better this week.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think there is a lot. I won't
Speaker 1: call it the tune in for the train wreck, because
Speaker 1: I think that would be overstating it. Although we hear
Speaker 1: from people who but feel like way, I think those
Speaker 1: people aren't watching, but the idea of that, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is and that's been my case too. Why you know,
Speaker 1: I thought I was going to kind of rotate post
Speaker 1: shows with Awn NXT. And I mean there's variety of
Speaker 1: reasons I'm not doing it that I won't get in too,
Speaker 1: but the major factor is I just think there's more
Speaker 1: to talk about with AW because you're less sure of
Speaker 1: what they're less your foot in and what they're doing,
Speaker 1: and there's more variance. It's a new product NXT. I
Speaker 1: enjoy people who listen to me talk about it. The
Speaker 1: last couple of years. No, it was my favorite show
Speaker 1: to watch on a weekly basis, and takeovers are my favorite,
Speaker 1: like kind of live special events. It just it checked
Speaker 1: enough boxes for me to be a product that it
Speaker 1: didn't have as many irritating things, a little nitpicky stuff
Speaker 1: that bothers me more than most people. But I will
Speaker 1: defend that it's important and I will also depend it
Speaker 1: argue it's symptomatic of things that are disrupted behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: We don't notice, you know, the dirty the dirty dining
Speaker 1: room might be indicative of a dirty kitchen and you
Speaker 1: might get sick eating there. And when you have sloppy
Speaker 1: stuff on there. There's probably some things that are missing
Speaker 1: out on behind the scenes that would make the product better.
Speaker 1: So that is an issue with AW but that gives
Speaker 1: someone like me more to talk about with it because
Speaker 1: the high end Jake tit so this dude, the highs
Speaker 1: are higher, the thowse are lower. NXT is thoroughly enjoyable.
Speaker 1: I never dread watching the show. I'm always excited to
Speaker 1: watch it start to finish. But it's not experimental. It
Speaker 1: is it knows what it is, and the people who
Speaker 1: make the air almost entirely are polished, and even though
Speaker 1: it's developmental, they're polished in ways that you can cover
Speaker 1: up for some of the greenness of some of the
Speaker 1: people who are younger. And there's less ConA Reeves now
Speaker 1: than there used to be on the weekly TV show.
Speaker 1: You know, they are not putting people out there to
Speaker 1: sink or swim. They're putting people out there they know
Speaker 1: that can swim. So it just it's a more paulished show.
Speaker 1: And that's so it's fascinating, but it does give us
Speaker 1: I mean, I still talk about NXT later in the
Speaker 1: week on my various podcasts, but in terms of Night
Speaker 1: of show discussion. Aw is just there's always something I
Speaker 1: want to see next week that I think is worth
Speaker 1: analyzing and talking about. That's more newsworthy. Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So speaking of NXT, what do you think of what
Speaker 1: they did with Charlotte.
Speaker 2: I like that segment quite a bit. I mentioned in
Speaker 2: my hit list. I think this was as good for
Speaker 2: her as it was for them, just to you know,
Speaker 2: if you're watching all WWE content, at least you know
Speaker 2: the main shows. She's so stale on Rod's Mackdown. It's
Speaker 2: not entirely her faults. A lot of it is the
Speaker 2: way she's booked. They treat her like a star. They
Speaker 2: book her like to be a star, but she's not
Speaker 2: a champion, and the only feuds they care about for
Speaker 2: the women involve titles, so she has no one to
Speaker 2: feud with, and it's just tiresome. And she's fallen into
Speaker 2: this trap of being very repetitive in the promos with
Speaker 2: the clean material. So seeing her in the ring with
Speaker 2: two very fresh potential opponents who are both very over
Speaker 2: really jumped out. It helped her, it helped them. It
Speaker 2: was just good all around.
Speaker 1: We're about to go to a commercial break. Whyles's of
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Speaker 1: Patreon dot com slash pw Torch. VIP rate start as
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Speaker 1: at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to treat yourself
Speaker 1: to a streamlined, ad unplug free listening experience with a
Speaker 1: VIP or Patreon membership. Bianca Belair is a star too,
Speaker 1: in part because she just presents herself like no matter
Speaker 1: what's going on, Like even when she got kind of
Speaker 1: pushed out of in between Charlotte and bel Air and
Speaker 1: she just stole the scene, like, I can't believe you
Speaker 1: people just did that to me. And then she's dancing
Speaker 1: in the background and laughing and creating this whole uproar.
Speaker 1: And yet it didn't feel like she was stealing the
Speaker 1: scene in a way that was disruptive, but it was
Speaker 1: a I can't help myself, but I'm self aware of
Speaker 1: it that I should be the star of the moment.
Speaker 1: And then she knew when to dial it back and
Speaker 1: let let the shift go back to Charlotte and bel
Speaker 1: Air facing off, and so the dynamic with those three
Speaker 1: was was really interesting. I think the segment was better
Speaker 1: for that, in the dynamic of bel Air and ree
Speaker 1: Rip leaving against each other but also sort of team
Speaker 1: at XT or twenty twenty n XT versus the person
Speaker 1: coming back to thinking she's a big deal. I thought
Speaker 1: there were a lot of things that play there, and
Speaker 1: it did. It gave Charlotte more to work with and
Speaker 1: more to play off of, and she seemed less robotic
Speaker 1: and what she did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was my favorite Charlotte segment in a long
Speaker 2: I can't even tell you the last time that I've
Speaker 2: really been into something. Even when she was teaming with
Speaker 2: Becky in the whole TLC thing, it's like, okay, whatever.
Speaker 2: So I really like that Bianca I think is really strong.
Speaker 2: This may seem like a nitpick. I like it the
Speaker 2: first I like it probably the first handful of times
Speaker 2: I saw her do the entrance, and now it feels
Speaker 2: like a ridiculously choreographed WWE entrance.
Speaker 3: I'd like to see them tone down on that a
Speaker 3: little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, you know like when bel Air though
Speaker 1: says you standing here, but you don't even go here
Speaker 1: like that's and then Charlotte come back, this is a
Speaker 1: conversation for champions, so stand over there and fix your braid.
Speaker 1: And then you have the crowd, you know, going ooh a,
Speaker 1: you know, like reacting to everything that. That was a
Speaker 1: fun segment. That was a fun segment, and then you
Speaker 1: know they loaded oh yeah, and then they loaded up
Speaker 1: the main event. I mean, I think they probably finished
Speaker 1: strong too. I don't think a lot of nxtvs are
Speaker 1: like I got to go check out the lashing. I
Speaker 1: think they delivered you know, a really good uh you know,
Speaker 1: close to the show with the final two segments.
Speaker 2: Well and you know, the overrun was back and so
Speaker 2: I didn't check the exact time to see when velveteen
Speaker 2: Dream showed up, but you know.
Speaker 3: It had to be during the over bah. Yeah. Sure
Speaker 3: at least got a glimpse of that if they were
Speaker 3: flipping over.
Speaker 1: Good good point. Yeah, and he looks good. He's a star,
Speaker 1: he I mean he NXT has people who believe their stars,
Speaker 1: whether they are or not. I mean, and I think
Speaker 1: in most cases they are. You know, Keith Lee is
Speaker 1: Bianca bell Air is velveteen dream is they they carry
Speaker 1: themselves like rising stars who deserve to have your attention.
Speaker 1: And that's that's half the battle. That's half the battle sometimes.
Speaker 3: So and how good does that take over lineup? Look?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, oh I know it's it's it's
Speaker 1: a fun show and I'm glad it's got it. It
Speaker 1: just gets the attention that weekend.
Speaker 2: My only concern and it's just a minor one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we're close to wrestlemany A weekend. Is this going to
Speaker 2: be one of those shows where you know, takeovers usually
Speaker 2: get clean finishes? And could this be more of a
Speaker 2: set up show? Because you know, if you're looking ahead
Speaker 2: to Wrestle many A weekend, you're gonna have to create
Speaker 2: a lot of fresh matchups and different things. And how
Speaker 2: do you know if you're just gonna give clean finishes,
Speaker 2: you can do some, you can do a rematcher two.
Speaker 2: But I do wonder if we may get you disappointing
Speaker 2: finish here or there on that show to set up
Speaker 2: the need for a rematch.
Speaker 1: I'm counting. I think we have like seven weeks in between, though,
Speaker 1: so I think that's enough time to get I know
Speaker 1: what you're saying, but I mean there's enough time to
Speaker 1: give finishes and have it seem like a big show,
Speaker 1: and then you know, hit the reset on a couple things,
Speaker 1: introduce a couple of things, and rev up things that
Speaker 1: that they that they you know, might appeared they finished
Speaker 1: but didn't based on you know, being able to book
Speaker 1: every week and tell stories. If it was like four weeks,
Speaker 1: I'd be more worried. Sure, Yeah, but yeah, that's a uh,
Speaker 1: that's a nice lineup. I mean, Dakota, Kaya, Tigu and Knox.
Speaker 1: There's such a backstory there. I think they extinguished it
Speaker 1: a little bit, but hopefully they can rev that. Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: and then Keith Lee died. Jakovic. I thought that was,
Speaker 1: you know, just like the respectful you know, the respectful
Speaker 1: conversation that stared down two peers, two rivals and when
Speaker 1: that bell rings, we're gonna go at it. And I
Speaker 1: like that not everything has to be this this you know, vile,
Speaker 1: bloody grudge, and they have plenty of them in NXT,
Speaker 1: but it's nice to have something a little different than that.
Speaker 1: And this will be a chance for them. I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like I've seen them wrestle enough that I
Speaker 1: was actually you know, I was I'd mixed feelings about
Speaker 1: them doing it again, but having a chance to have
Speaker 1: no commercials, uh, plenty of time to tell their story.
Speaker 1: This can be the cap to their feud. And I
Speaker 1: think there's such a chemistry between them and the goal
Speaker 1: is to get both eyes over so in front of
Speaker 1: a takeover audience. I think it's it's nice that they'll
Speaker 1: have that chance.
Speaker 2: I agree, Yeah, I've I've been hoping they would get
Speaker 2: that opportunity. It's good to see them get that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then broserwaits on disputed arificial Riley that's great. Colon Tampa, Wait,
Speaker 1: Colon Chava is going to be great ballor Gargana's going
Speaker 1: to be great. Ripley bel Air should be really good.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I want to go back to a
Speaker 1: couple those matches. But Ripley is absolutely the breakout star
Speaker 1: of the last you know, six months or whatever. I mean,
Speaker 1: she just it's she just has that something special where
Speaker 1: I actually think she's taken some of the conversation away
Speaker 1: from SHANEA. Basler going to the main roster and what
Speaker 1: will that mean because Ripley basically already is you know,
Speaker 1: she's involved in a storyline that is and involved with Charlotte.
Speaker 1: Ripley is kind of I mean, as exciting as it is,
Speaker 1: she I think she's taken some of the shine off
Speaker 1: of the excitement of what's next for shanea baseil or
Speaker 1: Shane is going to be fine. But in the moment
Speaker 1: right now, Ripley has leaffrogged her in terms of conversation piece.
Speaker 3: And so what better time than to send up Shanna?
Speaker 2: You know they now they held off forever, they have
Speaker 2: the replacement, and it's a different you know, she's a
Speaker 2: baby face, so it's different, but they have that, you know,
Speaker 2: that face of the women's division, and it's a strong one,
Speaker 2: certainly stronger than what we're getting on SmackDown for instance.
Speaker 1: Yes, yep, okay, so it's gonna say, uh what I
Speaker 1: left there is uh oh yeah, the the browerways. I
Speaker 1: want to ask about Matt Ryl and Pete Donne in
Speaker 1: their chemistry and their promo, did Riddle get a little
Speaker 1: too cute? And and I don't even know z zany
Speaker 1: is not the word d x or zany And I
Speaker 1: hate Zanny. I don't know a little too just informal
Speaker 1: or or did it totally work it? Because I was
Speaker 1: watching that and I was like, I think it's sort
Speaker 1: of like the lashing segment, like is this too self indulgence?
Speaker 1: Going too long? And by the end I was like
Speaker 1: that worked. And with Riddle and done, I was sort
Speaker 1: of like, is this getting too cute? And then by
Speaker 1: the end I was like, that worked.
Speaker 11: Now.
Speaker 1: My concern that I threw to you is it worked,
Speaker 1: But does it in any way to find down Matt
Speaker 1: Riddle to have him be so goofy?
Speaker 3: I don't think so. It's not the time for him
Speaker 3: to be one.
Speaker 2: I think what you saw was, you know, it was
Speaker 2: probably written for him, but it really tapped into Matt
Speaker 2: Riddle and his personality, and I just thought it was fun.
Speaker 1: I mean that that was.
Speaker 2: You see attempts at humor like that and not just
Speaker 2: like that, but I mean the attempts of at humor
Speaker 2: you get on the main roster just fall flat on
Speaker 2: their face.
Speaker 3: Where this just worked so well.
Speaker 2: Live crowd was into it, had a lot of fun
Speaker 2: with it, and yeah, just I think we got kind
Speaker 2: of a chance to see Matt Riddle's quirky personality. And
Speaker 2: then when once he I mean he's going for the
Speaker 2: tag titles. That's nice, but they just won the Dusty Classic.
Speaker 2: They should be kind of in silly, feel good mode.
Speaker 2: And then when the time comes for him to either
Speaker 2: go after the NXT Championship or hell even fewed with
Speaker 2: that Pete Dunn have done turns on him or something
Speaker 2: like that, then he can kind of turn on the
Speaker 2: more serious Matt Riddle. I don't think it's a bad
Speaker 2: thing to show multiple sides of his personality.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think that is fair. I bring it
Speaker 1: up because it's I think a valid question. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: call it a serious concern because in a way, you
Speaker 1: just got to let Matt Riddle be Matt Riddle.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I wouldn't want to you.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to see another attempt at at a
Speaker 2: humor like, all right, we're onto something here where that
Speaker 2: becomes like the r Truth segment for n XT.
Speaker 3: But you know, for one night I thought it was fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep.
Speaker 12: Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
Speaker 12: relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
Speaker 12: your passion?
Speaker 3: Do you want to be topped off the ledge?
Speaker 1: After a segment that has you wondering what the heck
Speaker 1: are they thinking?
Speaker 12: Do you want to join discussion on what AW is
Speaker 12: doing right and what they could do to improve, Then
Speaker 12: join me Joel and me Greg.
Speaker 11: For the All of the Conversation Club every Friday on
Speaker 11: the PW torch Live Cast. Fee search pw torch in
Speaker 11: your podcast app and subscribe to pw torch Daily Cast
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Speaker 1: And NXT overall. Is there any like I'm trying to
Speaker 1: think of an example to give of something where they
Speaker 1: have some work to do or is this just them
Speaker 1: doing a good job knowing what they're doing? Like? Is
Speaker 1: there is you know, because there's areas of concern that
Speaker 1: I have with AW, and we talked about them. What
Speaker 1: comes to mind when I bring that up about NXT?
Speaker 1: What could they other than the arena setting? I guess,
Speaker 1: which you know is that's if that's a compliment to
Speaker 1: say this should be these rustlers would be playing in
Speaker 1: front of a bigger building.
Speaker 3: That's just it.
Speaker 2: I you know, that's why I say, I think I
Speaker 2: wondered at what level of frustration there is that they're
Speaker 2: not doing bigger numbers because this is just such a
Speaker 2: well booked promotion and just such a well booked television series.
Speaker 2: It's I mean, you know, nothing is flawless, but it's
Speaker 2: just so consistently strong. I can't point to you can
Speaker 2: I always say, well, you know, i'd like to see
Speaker 2: this person challenging with the title instead or something like that,
Speaker 2: But everything logical, the segments, it's rare now that you
Speaker 2: see they're just failing some time. I did feel like
Speaker 2: that a little bit with the Tyler Breeze Jordan Devlin match.
Speaker 2: I thought it was a good match. I don't know
Speaker 2: that it needed to go as long as it did,
Speaker 2: but even that, I mean, it still was very entertaining
Speaker 2: for what it was. And yeah, so I almost feel
Speaker 2: bad for, you know, the creative people in NXT because
Speaker 2: they are doing such a damn good job. And I
Speaker 2: just hope that Vince isn't being Vince and blowing a
Speaker 2: gasket because they're losing this battle to aw because I
Speaker 2: don't know what else they could be doing.
Speaker 1: Who are tell me the Heeled depth chart, I would
Speaker 1: say that that's that would be the number one conversation
Speaker 1: piece if you were to look at are they doing
Speaker 1: enough on the male side with that? Because you've got
Speaker 1: unisputed Era and then Finn Balor. Who's next, Famian Priest?
Speaker 1: Who am I forgetting?
Speaker 3: Maybe?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't have the list in front of me,
Speaker 2: but that was the name that popped into my head too.
Speaker 2: I don't know if we're forgetting someone yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 2: a Killian Dane, but he's pretty far down the list
Speaker 2: because he tends to lose, you know, more than he wins. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that's I do wonder if that's there. They're setting
Speaker 2: things up as fun as Riddle and Done are together.
Speaker 2: I could see that being a short term thing and
Speaker 2: they I didn't Pete Done. It is gonna be a
Speaker 2: pleasant surprise for people who've only seen him on the
Speaker 2: us NXT as far as what kind of a heel
Speaker 2: he can be if they go in that direction. So
Speaker 2: I think he could be there, But yeah, I'm struggling
Speaker 2: to think of who else really fits in there, because yeah,
Speaker 2: they do seem babyface heavy.
Speaker 1: He just he looks like somebody who showed up at
Speaker 1: the pizza place super hungry and he sits down, looks
Speaker 1: at the menu and the services. I just like to
Speaker 1: let you know, we just ran out of mozzarella cheese.
Speaker 3: Like he just his arms are crossed. I'm grumpy.
Speaker 1: There's nothing that can that's nothing can scheer me up.
Speaker 1: And it is such a contrast with Riddle, and they're
Speaker 1: playing it for comedy, but there's they're also laying the foundation.
Speaker 1: These are very different people and it could go it
Speaker 1: could go wrong at some point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it probably needs to now
Speaker 2: that you point out the lack of heel depth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I would say that's that's the area.
Speaker 1: And again they book in a less traditional way because
Speaker 1: I mean they a Lee Leon Dominic are our faces.
Speaker 1: Champa and Gargano are faces, but there isn't a scent.
Speaker 1: There's a sense that anybody can find anybody at any time.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not as clear cut, but I think
Speaker 1: we're the most you know in you know Gargano right now,
Speaker 1: he's not a heel, but the fans are sort of like,
Speaker 1: where you are our guy. And now some people, at
Speaker 1: least at full sale, aren't so sure. And I'm curious
Speaker 1: what the crowd reaction in Portland is for Baler and Gargano.
Speaker 1: You know, throughout that match, you know it might not
Speaker 1: be a heel face matchup, even though you know we
Speaker 1: talk about aw trying to book Hangman Page as a
Speaker 1: heel and Kenny and the Bucks's faces. This could be
Speaker 1: a case where the fans end up tearing Baller and
Speaker 1: Boo and Gargano more because how they feel about Gargano
Speaker 1: oddly than just because Baler's a star and they love him.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about that. I don't know how that do
Speaker 1: you have a sense of that.
Speaker 2: That's you know, that's that's tough to predict, because I
Speaker 2: think you're right. I don't think Johnny, I've talked about
Speaker 2: this before. They kind of came in at a downtime
Speaker 2: for him when it comes to NXT in USA. So
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people who didn't get to live
Speaker 2: through the best of Gargana, and then you also have
Speaker 2: people who have seen it and are kind of like, Okay,
Speaker 2: but now what And maybe it is a heel run,
Speaker 2: but I hope it's not. It's a heel run that
Speaker 2: we're gonna turn Finn Balor. I think Balor needs to
Speaker 2: start healing on the fans he's such a He's a
Speaker 2: really good heel, but we're kind of missing that right now.
Speaker 2: He's heelish toward other wrestlers, but he seems to be
Speaker 2: content with the fans cheering him, and I'd like to
Speaker 2: see him just have no redeeming qualities.
Speaker 1: Going a little heavy on NXT Talk than normal for
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons, because I think it was a good,
Speaker 1: good news worthy show last night. And also we've, you know,
Speaker 1: since I've already done a couple hours on SmackDown and
Speaker 1: Raw and AEW, and so it's fun to get a
Speaker 1: little more in NXT. If you want even more NXT.
Speaker 1: By the way, p WT Talks NXT is our Thursday
Speaker 1: show drops late Wednesday night early Thursday morning with Kelly
Speaker 1: Walls and Eate Lindberg and Tons Stop and they talked.
Speaker 1: They talked every week for an hour and a half
Speaker 1: two hours apout NXT super in depth and so just
Speaker 1: search PW Torch on your podcast app to to grab that.
Speaker 1: And that is one of seven new shows a week.
Speaker 1: But the NXT show, if you're looking for that quick turnaround,
Speaker 1: in depth weekly discussion even longer than what Jason and
Speaker 1: are doing here, check that out. One of the things
Speaker 1: about last night show we haven't talked a lot about
Speaker 1: you just I think mentioned in passing is how long
Speaker 1: Jordan Devlin and Tyler Breese was. And I'm it was good,
Speaker 1: but I was kind of half expecting Devlin to like
Speaker 1: beat him in like a minute or two. Breese hasn't
Speaker 1: been featured much. I like Tyler, but when when when
Speaker 1: he and Fondaga were kind of doing their thing on
Speaker 1: NXT early on in the in the Wednesday battle, I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not sure that's a good idea. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't want XT to seem like, you know, rests
Speaker 1: are featured who are just sort of you know, I
Speaker 1: think I just didn't think that was a great use
Speaker 1: of time to treat them as competitive competitive tag team
Speaker 1: as much as I'm a fan of aspects of what
Speaker 1: they do in the ring and his characters, and so
Speaker 1: they'd been away for a while and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: Breeze just going to be kind of like Eric Young
Speaker 1: and it went really long. Was that good or bad
Speaker 1: for Jordan Devlin? Or was the match good enough in
Speaker 1: his projection of his personality and his intensity and his
Speaker 1: moveset Was that more important than winning quickly against somebody
Speaker 1: that fans don't see as a top level guy.
Speaker 2: I don't know that it matters this early with him,
Speaker 2: And part of it is he's the cruiserweight champion and
Speaker 2: there's only so much appreciation for that title, so you
Speaker 2: would think it would help make him and I guess
Speaker 2: it does. You know, it helps him stand out a
Speaker 2: little bit. It was a good match, and I think
Speaker 2: people are going to remember that part of it, and
Speaker 2: so when he you know, whatever he does next, I
Speaker 2: think the follow up I think will be the key.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was strange.
Speaker 2: I didn't see the match going that way, but I
Speaker 2: also enjoyed it because I was happy to see Breeze
Speaker 2: do something other than that awful Breeze on Goo silliness.
Speaker 2: That would have been something that was an early source
Speaker 2: of multiple misses in my Hits and Misses section because
Speaker 2: it just was like, this doesn't fit in. Why are
Speaker 2: they doing this male stripper routine entrance at NXT and
Speaker 2: clowning around. I don't like this, But so it was
Speaker 2: kind of like we had the old Tyler Breeze back.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, so they're trying to make at
Speaker 2: the same time, they're trying to make a statement that hey,
Speaker 2: you know, Tyler Brees can be taken serious. You're doing
Speaker 2: it with the guy who just won the Cruiserweight title,
Speaker 2: who doesn't make appearances on your NXT television show. So
Speaker 2: I don't know that that's really going to send that
Speaker 2: message either. So yeah, it was I enjoyed the match,
Speaker 2: but it was one of the I'd love to know
Speaker 2: the logic behind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why did they go so damn long?
Speaker 1: I know, Yeah, I was just shocked when they kept
Speaker 1: going to commercial, coming back and oh it's still I
Speaker 1: was thinking this will be a time when when it
Speaker 1: ends during the commercial and they'll establish that can happen,
Speaker 1: and they just kept going, yeah, Jordan Devlin. I liked
Speaker 1: the line. I think it was Nigel who said, Jordan
Speaker 1: Devlin wants to defend this Cruiser White title and NXT UK,
Speaker 1: NXT and two A five live, the idea that he's
Speaker 1: a traveling champion and the fact that now they're finding
Speaker 1: guys who actually are shorter and this isn't meant as
Speaker 1: a dick, but they're shorter than Adam Cole and Kyler Riley.
Speaker 1: They're shorter than Finnbaler, guys who in another era would
Speaker 1: have been the cruiserweights. They're putting the title on guys
Speaker 1: who look like there would be smaller, smaller than the
Speaker 1: heavyweights in NXT. So to speak. Maybe I'm a little
Speaker 1: off on that. Maybe Jordan Devlo would stand next Kyler
Speaker 1: Riley and be a little taller, or Adam Adam Cole
Speaker 1: or something, but I don't think so, Like he comes
Speaker 1: across to me as someone who is a little bit shorter.
Speaker 1: Do you think I'm wrong on that?
Speaker 2: I know, I God, I don't think so. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think you're right because certainly established that right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like the idea of having the If you're
Speaker 1: gonna have the cruiserweight title, make sure it someone who's
Speaker 1: noticeably shorter or smaller than the top guys you're pushing
Speaker 1: in the heavyweight division, and then make sure they're really
Speaker 1: good and they have personality. And then the idea that yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a traveling champion floating around these three brands. You
Speaker 1: know that works for me. Give yourself a reason to
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Speaker 2: Will two of five live go away if they find
Speaker 2: if they do, shall you know, basically show off the network.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's I'm glad you brought that up
Speaker 1: because going back to our original discussion, and there's so
Speaker 1: much going on today just in our Top Story of
Speaker 1: the show. But I think what Doughbe has discovered is
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of interest in like non essential
Speaker 1: programs to sustain a network. And again part of that
Speaker 1: is it's a different landscape now than six years ago,
Speaker 1: you know, with AEW doing what they're doing with NXT
Speaker 1: now on USA. Not to mention impact NWA Power aw
Speaker 1: Dark New Japan having even losing access more more excess
Speaker 1: access of that through their streaming networking on and on
Speaker 1: MLW I we shouldn't leave them out for sure, ROH
Speaker 1: and syndication and online. So it's just the idea of
Speaker 1: paying ten dollars a month so you can see two
Speaker 1: five live, that's just not gonna happen. But also, I
Speaker 1: mean they were excited about you know, Mick Foley in
Speaker 1: a reality series and Legends House and all that, and
Speaker 1: they've tried to do the ride a Law in the
Speaker 1: Table for three and all that, and it's just in
Speaker 1: the live podcasts, and then they did the Remember the
Speaker 1: Days of the Renee Young hosted raw pre show. There's
Speaker 1: so many things they've tried, and it doesn't seem to
Speaker 1: me anything has stuck where they believe. That's a difference maker,
Speaker 1: because I know you and I on the flagship when
Speaker 1: you were like, oh got it, Life's about to change,
Speaker 1: you know, Before the network launched and I remember having
Speaker 1: it on my laptop in the kitchen, watching the live
Speaker 1: stream of whatever they happened to put on the day
Speaker 1: it launch, and just keeping an eye on it. And
Speaker 1: that's not you know, that's not how it works anymore,
Speaker 1: Like I don't think people do that, And so.
Speaker 3: I don't remember the last time I've just turned that
Speaker 3: thing on, just have it on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that's not I mean, I'm sure some people do,
Speaker 1: but I bet it's a tiny number. And so if
Speaker 1: you know when you say, well two of five live
Speaker 1: go away, now that NXT isn't on the network and
Speaker 1: with Takeover going on a Sunday night on its own weekend,
Speaker 1: what does that mean?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Is that worth reading into it all in terms of
Speaker 1: can we if we go the paper viato go in
Speaker 1: ESPN plus route, do we just have Takeovers on a
Speaker 1: standalone now that they're on USA and give it its
Speaker 1: own weekend and don't piggyback it necessarily not that they
Speaker 1: haven't done it before, but it hasn't been the norm.
Speaker 1: Is that a possibility? Like what will people miss on
Speaker 1: the network if everything goes away? Especially now when you
Speaker 1: have Corey Gray's and New Day doing podcasts, the idea
Speaker 1: of oh, the network gives me this access to wrestlers
Speaker 1: talking with each other about the business or each other,
Speaker 1: the novelty factor on a lot of that secondary programming,
Speaker 1: I just don't think as a difference maker to have
Speaker 1: or lose.
Speaker 2: No, I will miss the documentary type of stuff. I
Speaker 2: think they produce some very good documentaries, but it's I
Speaker 2: mean some of this what I do just work wise
Speaker 2: makes it difficult to even keep up on all of that.
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of fans are in that
Speaker 2: same boat. Unless you're just a WWE only type of fan,
Speaker 2: If you're trying to keep up on a lot of
Speaker 2: pro wrestling content from different companies, you just run out
Speaker 2: of time.
Speaker 3: And so I think that is a factor.
Speaker 2: So as much as I like some of those documentaries
Speaker 2: and things, Yeah, the big reason I felt the network
Speaker 2: was going to be a game changer for just what
Speaker 2: we do. I thought you'd see something like WWE backstage,
Speaker 2: but on a daily basis for multiple hours. And I
Speaker 2: think they're kind of doing that with the Bump now,
Speaker 2: which maybe you tell that they're doing this on YouTube
Speaker 2: instead of their own network, because then they talked about
Speaker 2: it that they talked about doing like a morning type
Speaker 2: of show or an afternoon news show, and it just
Speaker 2: never materialized. That's what I thought, we're gonna have to
Speaker 2: be keeping an eye on that sort of thing, and
Speaker 2: instead it's all just relegated to, you know, one hour
Speaker 2: show on Tuesday nights, which was what happened to Tuesday
Speaker 2: being the down night way.
Speaker 1: I know, I was supposed to be hig you had
Speaker 1: a breath between Raw and you know it used to
Speaker 1: be ross backdown, back to back. But oh, there'll be
Speaker 1: a deep breath between Raw and the Wednesday night craziness.
Speaker 1: And yeah, there's so much on Tuesday nights. You got
Speaker 1: to pick and choose what you do and also not
Speaker 1: get completely burned out by the time you know, Wednesday
Speaker 1: comes around. Right, But let's listen to us. We get
Speaker 1: all right, let's uh, let's turn the page to what's
Speaker 1: going on over on Monday night Raw. A little surprise,
Speaker 1: big picture that the ratings haven't moved in a good
Speaker 1: direction for the show, because I think it's continued to
Speaker 1: be a better show, a show that I think people
Speaker 1: who sample it would go, yeah, I like, I like
Speaker 1: what I'm seeing.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 1: What is that your feel to watching the show that
Speaker 1: you think maybe it should have gained some traction now.
Speaker 1: I mean it was down to a one point five
Speaker 1: to seven this week after hitting a one point six
Speaker 1: seven and one point sixty six the previous two weeks.
Speaker 1: We're in that post football season and WrestleMania season, and
Speaker 1: it seems post Rumble there's there's been a drop off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I think it deserves better numbers because
Speaker 2: just based on quality, but it's when you have so
Speaker 2: much content, if you go through a slump, it's going
Speaker 2: to be tougher than ever to get people back because
Speaker 2: for some people, not everybody think you know that, we
Speaker 2: see the numbers, but for some people, Wednesday's become the
Speaker 2: new wrestling night, and you know, they they're getting their
Speaker 2: fixed there and they're not going to be as quick
Speaker 2: to go back to Raw. It's just, you know, some
Speaker 2: people are going to try to watch everything, but there
Speaker 2: are those fans that are going to be more selective
Speaker 2: and so it's going to take some time. Even though
Speaker 2: they don't have direct competition on Monday nights from another
Speaker 2: wrestling company's it kind of does remind me of back
Speaker 2: in the day when you know, Raw was clearly a
Speaker 2: better show than Nitro for so long, but Nitro was
Speaker 2: still winning that ratings battle. I just think people get
Speaker 2: out of the habit of watching Raw. Going back to
Speaker 2: watching a three hour show may feel like a chore,
Speaker 2: and especially when you start thinking about whatever made them
Speaker 2: give up on it in the first place, and just.
Speaker 3: You know, probably the really bad shows that they were delivering.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I just think it's natural that it's going
Speaker 2: to take some time to win people over and then
Speaker 2: let people, you know, just let that word of mouth
Speaker 2: start to build a little bit that hey, this is
Speaker 2: a better show.
Speaker 3: He may want to give it another look.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So what what do you on a specific
Speaker 1: character development or feud standpoint?
Speaker 2: Like most about what Raw has done. Oh man, so
Speaker 2: now we're deep in the show. I mean, you're making
Speaker 2: me think about the Monday. I know, it's crazy on Thursday.
Speaker 1: How far far? Because you got Randy Orton and he's
Speaker 1: not really good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Randy had just been really strong.
Speaker 1: Just seeing rand just seeing Randy seemed to be engaged
Speaker 1: in something that interests him. He seemed so disinterested for
Speaker 1: so many years, not because he didn't want to be interested.
Speaker 1: He was the kid in class who was two years
Speaker 1: ahead on the math lesson and board. He wanted something
Speaker 1: I couldnot relate to that. He wanted something more what's
Speaker 1: the square root of for I don't know, Okay.
Speaker 3: Just yes, yes, good Jay, thank you.
Speaker 1: So he seemed like, just give me something, and I
Speaker 1: it seems like Paul Hayman's given him something and he
Speaker 1: seems more engaged. So to me, that like obviously that
Speaker 1: jumps out. But I'll throw candidates at you because you,
Speaker 1: I mean you were about to when I interrupted. You
Speaker 1: were about to say someone Drew McIntyre turning baby face.
Speaker 3: There's about damn time.
Speaker 1: Yes, yep, and uh. And I mean they've got the
Speaker 1: Ray Mysterio Andrade Lumberto now Angel Guards a thing going on,
Speaker 1: just you know, Ray in general as a character that
Speaker 1: that is in a good spot. And then you have
Speaker 1: you know, Becky and Charlotte has two standout characters, and
Speaker 1: you have Seth the Monday Night Messiah as his thing
Speaker 1: will leave aside lash Lee and Lana, I just don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about it this week, but I and
Speaker 1: I'm probably leaving and then brought you know, kind of
Speaker 1: brought Lesner and the story of what's going on with him.
Speaker 1: Although that guys, I guess relates to Drew McIntyre right now.
Speaker 1: Those are those jump out to me as the top things.
Speaker 1: I mean, I say this, it's an all star cast
Speaker 1: of wrestlers being utilized as good as I've seen collectively.
Speaker 1: Wwe utilize what they have to work with in a
Speaker 1: long time.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I'm enjoying Raw so much more these days. They're
Speaker 2: filling that time nicely, and you know, it's I know
Speaker 2: it's repetitive, but as much as they're filling that time,
Speaker 2: it is still three hours and they The reason I
Speaker 2: bring that up is because it's so difficult for them
Speaker 2: to just leave you going. Man, I wish there was more.
Speaker 2: I wish we could see this. I do think that
Speaker 2: still works against them, but yeah, I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: a much improved show. It's you know, it does give
Speaker 2: me faith that Vince McMahon is letting Paul Hayman have
Speaker 2: more creative freedom, whether he's dedicating his time to SmackDown
Speaker 2: or just signing off in rubber stamping what he's getting
Speaker 2: on Raw, because it's so much better.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
Speaker 4: some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Pass cast every
Speaker 4: Friday on the PW Towards Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Speaker 4: Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
Speaker 4: taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Speaker 4: Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the
Speaker 4: happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
Speaker 4: The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Speaker 4: Pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, I don't know that Drew is going
Speaker 1: to be a transformative babyface. Do you think I'm wrong
Speaker 1: in ruling in leaning towards ruling that out.
Speaker 2: I will not rule that out. I can't tell you're
Speaker 2: wrong either. It's I think he so much of it too.
Speaker 2: Is what does Vince picmahon think. Does Vince Bicman see
Speaker 2: him as a transformative baby face? Does he see him
Speaker 2: having that Roman range potential? Is he on board with
Speaker 2: this or is he just saying, Okay, Paul, go ahead,
Speaker 2: well we'll see what happens.
Speaker 3: I think he's a yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's I don't see him necessarily being stone
Speaker 2: cold John Cena that.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, you know he is something different.
Speaker 2: I've said for a long time, and I think he
Speaker 2: has all the qualities that they wish Roman Reigns had.
Speaker 3: I think he has that ability. So I can't say that,
Speaker 3: you know, no, he can't become that.
Speaker 2: But you know, I don't look at him just think,
Speaker 2: oh slam dunk, this guy is gonna know he's the
Speaker 2: next John Cena. I don't necessarily see it that way either,
Speaker 2: you know, I think they should be very open minded
Speaker 2: going into the possibility that, you know, he may have
Speaker 2: that quality to him, and if he doesn't, well, hey,
Speaker 2: he's still really good at what he does.
Speaker 1: Could Roman Reigns could not get away and seeing what
Speaker 1: we've seen out of him and the way that he
Speaker 1: talks with a yawls and and you know whatever, that
Speaker 1: it's just his persona. He could never get away with
Speaker 1: saying that he's sexy and not have the fans completely
Speaker 1: rebel against him. But Drew McIntyre, the women swoon. I
Speaker 1: think the kids are gonna want to buy merchandise three
Speaker 1: two to one claymore. But the guys are gonna like
Speaker 1: him too. He can get away with saying I'm the
Speaker 1: sexy Scotsman. And I don't think there's anybody who looks
Speaker 1: at him and goes, he's a badass, But yeah, he
Speaker 1: thinks he's sexy, and I don't want to cheer this guy.
Speaker 1: My friends will can't be weird or something like that. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's I don't think that's an issue
Speaker 1: with him. There's something there with him that he can
Speaker 1: be all things tall people and something stopped Roman from
Speaker 1: getting their same thing, something stop Seth from getting there.
Speaker 1: I think Drew has a huge upside. I think he's
Speaker 1: a very valuable heel and even better valuable baby face
Speaker 1: because he gets to break out of a very narrow
Speaker 1: lane he was in as the grumpy, uptight heel and
Speaker 1: you know, destined for greatness, but standing behind other people
Speaker 1: circumstantially for you know, way too long. This is breakoup.
Speaker 1: I still but when I say transformative, I just don't
Speaker 1: think he's Hogan or or necessarily even what Daniel Bryan
Speaker 1: was for that snapshot of history. That that the glimpse
Speaker 1: that we got before is kind of muffled a bit
Speaker 1: by the booking. But I don't I don't know for sure.
Speaker 1: That's why I bring it up and ask. My inclination
Speaker 1: is to bet you know, a level down from that,
Speaker 1: but he's still if they play their cards right and
Speaker 1: if he beats Brock at Mania, you know, are you
Speaker 1: set for a few years with a guy who ends
Speaker 1: up better off than Seth and Rains did as your
Speaker 1: top in his prime babyface?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think there's that potential, is there? I wouldn't be
Speaker 2: printing shirts with sexy sexy Scotsman.
Speaker 1: No, but he got I was saying it in kind
Speaker 1: of a self aware way.
Speaker 2: But I did hear my girlfriend giggle from the kitchen
Speaker 2: when he said that, So I don't know if she
Speaker 2: was giggling like, yeah, he is, or just thought it
Speaker 2: was a funny line.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure, but yeah, I think you know he is.
Speaker 3: I'd be more.
Speaker 2: Concerned right now if I hadn't seen him an impact
Speaker 2: wrestling do such an effective job as a baby that. Okay,
Speaker 2: sexy Scotsman, where is this going? But we have seen that,
Speaker 2: and we know like he can get away with that
Speaker 2: because he's such a good talker and he knows how
Speaker 2: to walk that line. So yeah, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of upside here. I think this is
Speaker 2: a really exciting move. That was the most excited I've
Speaker 2: been about a royal Rumbo winner in a long time.
Speaker 2: It was just the right move to make. And my fear,
Speaker 2: even when it was Brock hung around the ringside, like, oh,
Speaker 2: he's going to pull him over and they're going to
Speaker 2: split this up and have him win the chamber to
Speaker 2: get to Brock.
Speaker 3: But they did the right thing. They went all the way.
Speaker 3: They had him to eliminate Brock and had him go
Speaker 3: all the way to win, and I think that was
Speaker 3: the way to do it.
Speaker 2: And if he doesn't win the title at WrestleMania, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to panic as long as I have some
Speaker 2: feeling that okay, and they just didn't feel like this
Speaker 2: was the time. Maybe you do it at SummerSlam and
Speaker 2: you build that moment a little bit more. It doesn't
Speaker 2: I mean, Manya is where they like to do those
Speaker 2: sorts of things to really make somebody. So I'm not
Speaker 2: ruling it out, but I'm just saying I'm not going
Speaker 2: to panic either, as long as it's not just oh,
Speaker 2: Brock beats him and six minutes like Brock beats everybody,
Speaker 2: that would be a huge mistake.
Speaker 1: One of the odds Drew beats Rock and becomes champion
Speaker 1: at Mania right now.
Speaker 3: I look at it like at least seventy five eight.
Speaker 3: I think he does because I don't know what you're
Speaker 3: looking at.
Speaker 1: You know who else is going to I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I think it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: I think it's the right time to do it. I
Speaker 1: but part of me just I just bet I should
Speaker 1: say I've been burned by it because I don't know how.
Speaker 1: I mean, Rain's got his win. Seth got his win
Speaker 1: with a low blow. You know it's happened. But I
Speaker 1: just it feels like Drew. I'm still worried Drew as
Speaker 1: the flavor of the season because Vince doesn't see a
Speaker 1: better option and he got talked into it by Paul
Speaker 1: and I. So until I see it, I'm just not
Speaker 1: I don't want to get myself too up for it.
Speaker 1: But I think it's the right move. I mean, Drew
Speaker 1: looks and he's carried himself. He's carrying himself as a
Speaker 1: guy who is not intimidated by Brock and he does
Speaker 1: so in a way that I buy into and I
Speaker 1: didn't with Seth. That's not the story they told his Seth.
Speaker 1: Sets I think I can meet up. I think I
Speaker 1: can beat him. Drew's like, I'm kay his ass, you know,
Speaker 1: through Claymore, He's done. I'm not scared of him. And
Speaker 1: Rain's just doesn't have that. Rains always felt like that
Speaker 1: video game reporter or the video game wrestler who pops
Speaker 1: off the screen and is Vincent Man's vision of the
Speaker 1: ultimate you know, guy who I'm gonna push. But he
Speaker 1: didn't seem like a fighter. He was the cool dude
Speaker 1: who knew his place in the shield and then got
Speaker 1: over pushed and all that. It's like he had stiff
Speaker 1: working against him, and those things just aren't there with Drew.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think people would buy Drew as as
Speaker 1: a badass who can beat Brock and he's not shying
Speaker 1: away from from you know, setting the goal high. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's fun, It's this is this. So many people
Speaker 1: are on journeys right now. You know, Edge and Wharton,
Speaker 1: they're each on a journey. Raymisterio's on a journey. Angel
Speaker 1: Garza now on a journey filling in for uh Andrade
Speaker 1: and Umberto was on a journey. They had he wasn't
Speaker 1: the flavor of the week who's been discarded. They they're
Speaker 1: investing in him. You know, he's he's a valuable off,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of bench player to use an NBA
Speaker 1: analogy or whatever, like they they're and I think there's
Speaker 1: an upside for him so on and off And we
Speaker 1: haven't talked about the women's division there. There's some good
Speaker 1: stuff going on on Raw. The wrestlers are on journeys
Speaker 1: and I'm invested in them well.
Speaker 2: And one more point on Drew is you know, the
Speaker 2: last time I was this excited about somebody that was
Speaker 2: kind of rising the ranks as a baby face was
Speaker 2: braun Stroman going into his first match with brock Lessner.
Speaker 2: The difference now is that there's no Roman reigns, you know,
Speaker 2: Vince chosen one standing in the way. I don't see
Speaker 2: anyone on Raw that is being built up in that
Speaker 2: in that fashion. So yeah, that's why I think there's
Speaker 2: a really good chance that he ends up beating Brock again,
Speaker 2: whether it's Mania, Summer Slam.
Speaker 3: You know, at some point I think he's the guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to
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Speaker 1: slash go vi ip. Okay, let's touch on SmackDown again.
Speaker 1: Kind of a big macro question. Who would have I
Speaker 1: guess we talked about it earlier to a degree, but
Speaker 1: it it's a watchable vincement, you know, quintessential. I can't
Speaker 1: not think of the quintessential stud Muffin when I say that,
Speaker 1: but the quintessential vincement Man Brus Pritchard show. And the
Speaker 1: rating the viewership is fine but not where it should be,
Speaker 1: but not in a panic state. And you know, you'd say, well,
Speaker 1: you know, Rhonda and Brock and Roman there clearly, even
Speaker 1: though it's a little surprising, both Becky and Charlotte, ron
Speaker 1: raw Sasha and Bailey were hot off turns, You're like,
Speaker 1: you know, and the Fiend. It's like, this was supposed
Speaker 1: to be this star studded show. And you know, Danna
Speaker 1: Bryant's been a pleasant surprise back in the old Daniel
Speaker 1: Broyn role. But Ron is gone. Brock's gone. The Fiend
Speaker 1: is sort of part time and you got to use
Speaker 1: them in a different, non traditional way. And they have
Speaker 1: no heels, and after you know, Brian and Rains, there's
Speaker 1: not a lot there. Bron is sort of a special
Speaker 1: attraction guy. I don't know, it just it does feel
Speaker 1: like and Todd Martin predicted this, and he said last
Speaker 1: week he was ready to take his victory lap that
Speaker 1: ros still despite Roman reigns and The Fiend and Bronz Strowman.
Speaker 1: Ro's the a show still despite being on Fox. And
Speaker 1: you know we should whisper that because I don't think
Speaker 1: Fox executives want to hear that no, And.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's by design. I think that it's
Speaker 2: what we always see with Vince. The bigger, the bigger
Speaker 2: the show in his mind, the more he thinks he's
Speaker 2: loading it up when they do a roster, split, a draft,
Speaker 2: what have you, and it always works out that the
Speaker 2: other brand gets all the workers and everyone that people
Speaker 2: are excited about, and it's just that's the way it go.
Speaker 2: So I think he when he split the brands up,
Speaker 2: I think he looked at it and thought, for whatever reason,
Speaker 2: he had SmackDown laid out the way he needed to.
Speaker 2: And a lot of it was we got to protect Roman.
Speaker 2: We can't have all these heels that people actually like.
Speaker 2: We got to protect the Mighty Roman. And so that's
Speaker 2: why I think you see kind of a shortage of
Speaker 2: heeled depth there. You're going to get sham is coming
Speaker 2: up at some point, you just know you will. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, so I think SmackDown is in a bad
Speaker 2: place because of that, And I won't be surprised if
Speaker 2: they do another draft or shake up at some point
Speaker 2: soon and start to undo some of the good that's
Speaker 2: been done on Raw. But I have more faith than
Speaker 2: Paul Hayman creatively to just make up for it long
Speaker 2: term anyway.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So on SmackDown, where are we with the Fiend
Speaker 1: and WrestleMania Roman? Yeah? And good lack with that?
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's great.
Speaker 2: The WrestleMania crowd, they're going to think the Fiend is
Speaker 2: kind of cool and they don't like Roman. I mean
Speaker 2: they booed him when he was coming back from leukemia
Speaker 2: for the first time in WrestleMania that they don't like him.
Speaker 2: You know, there's audiences they tolerate him. There's some audience
Speaker 2: like the family friendly crowds that are going to SmackDown
Speaker 2: like him.
Speaker 3: But WrestleMania, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, you heard it at the Rumble, there was already
Speaker 2: there were already a lot of detractors there. Maybe they
Speaker 2: don't care enough about the Universal Championship at this point
Speaker 2: because it's just the way it's been booked that they
Speaker 2: won't be as tough on this. But I don't see
Speaker 2: like a groundswelve support for Roman reigns. I just think
Speaker 2: it's going to be one of those Yeah, let's just
Speaker 2: get this over with matches.
Speaker 1: What could SmackDown do to spark the show?
Speaker 3: Like, is fire Bruse portrait and Vince McMahon steps away?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, idea, that's it to me. Had they made
Speaker 1: Daniel Brown champion and told that story and had the
Speaker 1: Fiend off on the side in a very relevant feud,
Speaker 1: but without the championship and found something for Rains that
Speaker 1: felt important but didn't involve the world title, which would
Speaker 1: involve getting some heels on that roster and maybe you know,
Speaker 1: like again Rains and the USOS against a fresh and
Speaker 1: truly formidable three man heel team that you can split
Speaker 1: off and do some singles matches with and go that
Speaker 1: direction for six months or so with Brian is champ
Speaker 1: Fiend in the special attraction role, Braun in the special
Speaker 1: attraction role, Rains in deeply personal feuds and delaying what
Speaker 1: is still too soon and maybe I'll never be right
Speaker 1: again with a fan base, you know, him being against
Speaker 1: the Fiend in a world title matchup Mania, that to
Speaker 1: me is sort of the the not you know, it's
Speaker 1: not a complete overhaul like the Timber Miss Timberros did today, right,
Speaker 1: but a tweak of given what you have and then
Speaker 1: just trying to find a way to get some heels
Speaker 1: over there that matter, because I mean, and again a
Speaker 1: new day, He'll turn would be in the mix. The
Speaker 1: other thing, and it's it's it's always been enough on
Speaker 1: the table his Turnarrains he you know, go with Brian
Speaker 1: as champion and have Reins lose to the Fiend in
Speaker 1: a non title matchup Mania and then Rains goes heal
Speaker 1: because a lot of people change after they wrestle with
Speaker 1: the Fiend. You might have heard that, Jason, Yeah, And
Speaker 1: then and then use that at Brian fighting for Underneath
Speaker 1: and you're trying to keep Rains from getting the belt,
Speaker 1: Like I think there's some things they can do. And
Speaker 1: then you know, also just you know, strengthening the outer
Speaker 1: card by doing a better job of Seamus out of
Speaker 1: the gate than they've done. And by the way, protect
Speaker 1: Nakamura and Cesarro more than they have, right, you know
Speaker 1: that lost by Nakamura. I just there's there's so many
Speaker 1: things that that they're doing that that diminish how important
Speaker 1: everything but the top one or two programs. Other than
Speaker 1: the top one or two programs, it doesn't feel important enough.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, and does anyone care that bron Stroman
Speaker 2: won the Intercondinental title? And it just goes to show
Speaker 2: they I think they said Knakamura held the title for
Speaker 2: one hundred and ninety nine days and like there wasn't
Speaker 2: one memorable moment in that one hundred and ninety nine days,
Speaker 2: and so Ron beating him to win that title just
Speaker 2: didn't matter.
Speaker 3: It was like, okay, great.
Speaker 1: When you form a new tag team while you're in
Speaker 1: anental champion and you're knowing more for that tag team,
Speaker 1: it's not a particularly memorable trade. So yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, don't Is there anything more you want
Speaker 1: to say about Smacdell.
Speaker 3: Shortyg is the worst gimmick in years.
Speaker 2: I feel horrible for Chad Gable and I mean that
Speaker 2: just tells me everything I need to know about the
Speaker 2: creative forces that are really running that show.
Speaker 13: Do you remember when Hulk Hogan shocked the world and
Speaker 13: formed the New World Order or when Stone Cold Steve
Speaker 13: Austin passed down on the Sharpshooter to break the hit
Speaker 13: Man heart. I'm Torch contributor Frank petty Any and I've
Speaker 13: reviewed these shows and many more for my exclusive VIP podcast,
Speaker 13: Pro Wrestling Than and Now. Together with a rotating chair
Speaker 13: of co hosts, we go back ten, twenty, even thirty years,
Speaker 13: review pay per views from top to bottom, talk about
Speaker 13: where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare what
Speaker 13: took place then to what is taking place now. You
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Speaker 13: of your PW Torch vip membership, which is compatible with
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Speaker 1: For Okay, so let's talk about the XFL a little bit.
Speaker 1: You are a big NFL fan. Where are you on
Speaker 1: your anticipation for the XFL, both as kind of a
Speaker 1: curiosity this weekend and the sustainable their ability to to
Speaker 1: get you invested as a as a sustaining view a
Speaker 1: viewer who watches on a weekly basis and sustain your interest.
Speaker 2: I'm only watching a quarter because I feel obligated, and
Speaker 2: I'll go into it, you know, as open minded as
Speaker 2: I can, like, Hey, if it's good, maybe watch more.
Speaker 3: But I'm going to force myself to watch a quarter
Speaker 3: this weekend. I have no interest in this.
Speaker 2: This is players I don't know for the most part,
Speaker 2: players I don't care about for the most part, playing
Speaker 2: for teams that I have no attachment to whatsoever. And
Speaker 2: it's all second rate. And I just watched the peak
Speaker 2: of the NFL season and it was a great game.
Speaker 2: And I mean, this is just if they can find
Speaker 2: enough money in television and streaming to keep this afloat,
Speaker 2: good for them. This is not catching on the idea
Speaker 2: of doing this right right after the Super Bowl, Like
Speaker 2: I get the idea. I thought there would have been
Speaker 2: some buzz for this during the Super Bowl, like Fox
Speaker 2: advertising their coverage more than they did.
Speaker 3: Nobody's talking about this.
Speaker 2: I finally saw a headline in one of the football
Speaker 2: sites that I go to, and it's a site that
Speaker 2: has been kind of pro XFL and believing at different
Speaker 2: points that this could be successful. This is the first
Speaker 2: time all week I've seen any kind of an XFL
Speaker 2: headline on there. They're doing a terrible job with this,
Speaker 2: he says. They have almost four hundred employees. I don't
Speaker 2: know what the hell they're doing. It's sure as hell,
Speaker 2: isn't marketing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess does that count the people in
Speaker 1: charge of like carrying the equipment from city to city.
Speaker 3: It must. I think this is just the rollout for
Speaker 3: this is beyond bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, if you're a WWE viewer, I mean, if
Speaker 1: you have a house shows. I mean, they've been running ads,
Speaker 1: like you know, at live events for the XFL, But
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's concern like if they run
Speaker 1: XFL ads on TV, does the XFL need to pay
Speaker 1: WWE for that because of the uproar over you know,
Speaker 1: the really truly keeping them separate would is part of
Speaker 1: the lack of hype on WWE television because of concern
Speaker 1: that investors had that WWE was giving away promotion for
Speaker 1: this outside company on promotion that they should be selling.
Speaker 1: And did that actually discourage Vince from promoting the XFL
Speaker 1: to his own audience.
Speaker 3: It might, but I mean even if he can, I
Speaker 3: just don't think people care.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I'll probably watch more than a quarter. But
Speaker 1: you know, like the original incarnation, the original incarnation was
Speaker 1: a circus, you know, Jesse vent Turrett, Jim Ross, cheerleaders
Speaker 1: having affairs with quarterbacks. I mean it was just like,
Speaker 1: it's just like, you couldn't have come up with a better,
Speaker 1: a more out of touch, tone deaf way to launch
Speaker 1: counter to a league that Vince thought nobody had fun
Speaker 1: watching because it's no fun league, when the truth was
Speaker 1: it was wildly popular, and the way to launch an
Speaker 1: alternate wasn't to rip on the product that people loved,
Speaker 1: but just market it as essentially an extension of it
Speaker 1: with some fun things thrown in. And you know, I
Speaker 1: still say the dumbest thing they ever did is the
Speaker 1: non football people said, we're going to make it more
Speaker 1: exciting by loosening up on all those defensive rules. And
Speaker 1: then they wondered why games were six to three because
Speaker 1: wide receivers are basically being tackled by defenders who because
Speaker 1: they wouldn't get penalized. Like they loosened up the rules,
Speaker 1: think you would make it a harder hitting game. And
Speaker 1: what it did is it prevented passes from connecting to anybody.
Speaker 3: Well, and now they're having all these quirky rules.
Speaker 2: And I mean, some of them may turn out to
Speaker 2: be good, and if they are, they'll be adopted by
Speaker 2: the NFL. But I mean it's just now they're trying
Speaker 2: to reinvent the wheel with football, is what I'm with
Speaker 2: this rule book.
Speaker 3: I tried to read through and I gave up. It
Speaker 3: was like, this is dumb.
Speaker 1: What's w's spin a wheel? Make a deal? Give it called?
Speaker 1: Oh done that in a while, Rolette, Yah, thank you,
Speaker 1: we need XFL roulette. You know, spin the wheel. Cornerback
Speaker 1: has to throw with his left hand if he's right handed,
Speaker 1: for you know, a third down of choosing by the
Speaker 1: other team right the coach has to go in and
Speaker 1: play offensive lineman for the opening, you know, for one
Speaker 1: of the players, like just do crazy stuff. You know,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't rule out any of that because
Speaker 1: with a mistic man running it, even if the football
Speaker 1: people will scoff if the ratings aren't where they need
Speaker 1: to be. This is this is Vince trying to fix
Speaker 1: something that he's embarrassed by.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is uh. I have no hope, no expectation
Speaker 3: of this doing well at all.
Speaker 1: Rh Are they making a comeback? Are they worth? You know,
Speaker 1: we talk about Raw being a show on the comeback
Speaker 1: and people should try to they gave up on it
Speaker 1: is RHTV in that category yet with you, Jason, with
Speaker 1: some uh, you know, revitalized format changes on the booking
Speaker 1: scene and some new names.
Speaker 2: I'd like to tell you, but I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: they're having their free enterprise show, which is great if
Speaker 2: you live in Baltimore. It's the big relaunch of their show.
Speaker 2: But oh, you have to be an Honor Club subscriber
Speaker 2: to see the big relaunch of a Ring of Honor.
Speaker 3: This is a dumb approach.
Speaker 1: What have you thought of what you've seen so far?
Speaker 1: Five six weeks into the year, though, there's nothing.
Speaker 2: About television yet because it's so dated, you know, it's
Speaker 2: so it's rh TV.
Speaker 3: It's just as bad as it's been.
Speaker 2: They're straying a little bit from all the highlights, and
Speaker 2: they're starting to give you more of the three match approach.
Speaker 2: But two of the last three weeks have featured Master
Speaker 2: and the Machine and enhancement matches. I mean, they're giving
Speaker 2: enhancement guys more time than their stars. There's very little
Speaker 2: star power on the show. I mean not that RWH
Speaker 2: has a lot of star power, but even like the
Speaker 2: stars of the brand, they're not appearing on the show
Speaker 2: often enough.
Speaker 3: Reck Height has just got to win. It's bad.
Speaker 2: I mean, I hope it gets better, but they if
Speaker 2: you're really going to do a relaunch and you want
Speaker 2: people to get excited about it, you find a way
Speaker 2: to put that show out there for free.
Speaker 1: So I'll put you down for a no on that.
Speaker 1: Who are Roh's top six guys right now?
Speaker 2: Oh, Pco, Marty Squirrel, Bandido Rouche, and I'm probably forgetting
Speaker 2: people beyond.
Speaker 1: That, Jeff Cobb and the Briscos and that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how long Jeff Cobb is going
Speaker 2: to be there. I guess the Brisco's by default. I
Speaker 2: mean they just they're the Briskos, you know, I mean
Speaker 2: they they're always around and they would mean more elsewhere,
Speaker 2: but you know, they seem content being there.
Speaker 1: H we'res Dalton Castle at this point, the precursor to
Speaker 1: velveteen Dream and a champion for a while with an
Speaker 1: injury riddled Ron. He's you know, he's he's in the
Speaker 1: mix now is do they have him moved way down
Speaker 1: the card in your eye? Or is he someone who
Speaker 1: you could imagine being top six as a Euro goes forward.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's happening. I think the thrill has
Speaker 2: kind of gone there. The boys aren't there anymore. Returned
Speaker 2: to Heel, it didn't go well. Fans didn't want to
Speaker 2: boo him, but they also aren't that into him either.
Speaker 2: And now he's in like this comedic tag team that
Speaker 2: just doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Flip Gordon, how does he look going into
Speaker 1: twenty twenty?
Speaker 2: Completely wasted as the fourth member of Villain Enterprises. He
Speaker 2: was their young pretty boy baby face with the military
Speaker 2: background and so roh booking being what it is, let's
Speaker 2: turn him Heel and just make him a bland assassin
Speaker 2: hype who doesn't say anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, what else?
Speaker 3: Jace?
Speaker 1: So what do you think of the new w signings?
Speaker 3: I like both.
Speaker 2: I think Killer Cross has tremendous upside. I loved him
Speaker 2: and Impact Russ. I don't know what they'll call him
Speaker 2: a WWE, so I think that's a great signing. Timothy
Speaker 2: Thatcher is a guy that AEW should Maybe they did,
Speaker 2: but they should have made a real play for He
Speaker 2: would fill a need for them. They need some guys
Speaker 2: who can work a Matt based style to kind of
Speaker 2: counter all the more high flying type of stuff that
Speaker 2: they do.
Speaker 3: They still have a need for that, And I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think he Thatcher strikes me as a guy that's
Speaker 2: going to probably do well in NX and that's going
Speaker 2: to be the peak of it, because I can't see
Speaker 2: Vince McMahon getting into, you know, a thirty six year
Speaker 2: old Matt based wrestler who doesn't have Kurt Angle's charisma.
Speaker 1: Right, when you think about AW in the free agent market,
Speaker 1: is not signing Cross us should people read into that
Speaker 1: as a sign that AW is not going to be
Speaker 1: a serious bidder for the the I guess the equivalent
Speaker 1: prior would be Sentent and Ortiz, which they did score.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so, because I mean, you'd have
Speaker 2: to go back to when Scarlett Bordeaux signed with NXT,
Speaker 2: and that's his girlfriend. Once that happened, I think realistically,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there's there's some couples who work
Speaker 2: different places, but for the most I think at that
Speaker 2: point most of us were just like, ah, he's probably
Speaker 2: going to follow once he's contractually able, and that's what
Speaker 2: he did. So I don't I mean, they should have
Speaker 2: made a play. Hopefully they did. I assume they did,
Speaker 2: because he's been backstage, like they're events like in Vegas
Speaker 2: in the past, at least one of them, so they
Speaker 2: probably made it play.
Speaker 3: But you know, it's he if she wanted to be
Speaker 3: there and he wanted to to be there, not much you.
Speaker 1: Can do, Yeah, yep, anything else you want to cover?
Speaker 3: Jason, No, I think that takes care of everything.
Speaker 11: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Cool, All right, So we'll wrap up there again. Check
Speaker 1: out Jason's website Pro Wrestling dot Net a ton of
Speaker 1: if you want to get more on the w WB
Speaker 1: financials and the Vin's conference call. All the highlights are there.
Speaker 1: We certainly talked about a lot of it, but not everything.
Speaker 1: And uh yeah you're you're just breaking news and live
Speaker 1: TV coverage and of course links to all your podcasts too.
Speaker 1: But people should check out Pro Wrestling Boom. The you know,
Speaker 1: diverse mix of people, interviews you get are It's always
Speaker 1: fun to see who's gonna be on this this coming
Speaker 1: each week when when you drop that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, if anybody has any questions or just
Speaker 2: wants to follow me in general at Pro Wrestling Net
Speaker 2: on Twitter, you got it.
Speaker 1: Yep, cool, Thanks Jason, Thank you. Invite you to email
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