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<v Speaker 1>All right, Liberian of Colino, welcome back to the Jay

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<v Speaker 1>Burton Show. How you doing Mana here again? Yeah, our

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<v Speaker 1>last episode was sort of a sleeper hit. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it did about as well as everyone else, but I

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<v Speaker 1>got a very long trail of emails and comments, people

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<v Speaker 1>coming back to it saying it was a great conversation,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, I had to agree, and so, yeah, man,

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<v Speaker 1>I figured i'd have you back on, particularly to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about your most recent essay. So I assume people remember

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<v Speaker 1>you check out a substack. It's quite good. But if

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<v Speaker 1>you could, could you describe sort of what motivated you

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<v Speaker 1>to write this essay and then your your general thesis

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<v Speaker 1>if you could.

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<v Speaker 2>So, I was motivated to write about it because, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess sort of a sense of duty, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>because everybody else was talking about it and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the commentary around it, I sort of felt missed

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<v Speaker 2>not the point. There's a lot of points being made

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<v Speaker 2>in there, but I thought it missed a point, a

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<v Speaker 2>point I think the author himself didn't quite fully wrap

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<v Speaker 2>himself around. And I'm not the only one to I'll

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<v Speaker 2>get a little more into it, but I'm not the

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<v Speaker 2>only one that sort of think the author sort of missed,

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<v Speaker 2>missed a point or pulled a punch or something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>But there was a lot of sort of anger and

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<v Speaker 2>doomerism around the response to this article. People throwing their

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<v Speaker 2>hands up in the air. You know, see this proves

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<v Speaker 2>that it's always been like this. They they hate white people.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't get ahead, you can't get a job, the systems.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we need to turn our rage against the

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<v Speaker 2>system and stuff. And I think there certainly is And

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<v Speaker 2>this is a point I made in my article. I

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<v Speaker 2>thought it'd be more controversial than it was, and people

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<v Speaker 2>really just seem to respond to it well. But the anger,

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<v Speaker 2>right that the energy behind that, I think directing it

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<v Speaker 2>at the system is not as important as it is

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<v Speaker 2>to take that energy and turn it towards our own

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<v Speaker 2>creative endeavors, make something new out of the ruins of

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<v Speaker 2>what's clearly collapsing around us.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it's a it's a difficult needle to

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<v Speaker 1>thread because and look, even before this compact piece, this

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<v Speaker 1>is a drum that I've been beating on for quite

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<v Speaker 1>a while that there are cards stacked against white men,

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<v Speaker 1>and particularly young white men. But the problem is, right,

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<v Speaker 1>your analysis can often not your personally, uh, mister Klino.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, one analysis can can veer into a

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<v Speaker 1>sort of a sense of hopelessness. And there's sort of

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<v Speaker 1>a cynically but partially correct take that comes from the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of woke right crowd, the people who say that

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<v Speaker 1>a lot. We're like, oh no, this is horrible. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>By by pointing out that there is, you know, racial

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<v Speaker 1>discrimination against white people, you're you know, adopting the same

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<v Speaker 1>quo victim morality of you know, the left. You're doing

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<v Speaker 1>the woke thing all over again. And Okay, that's disingenuous.

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<v Speaker 1>That's there for a reason. But I think there is

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<v Speaker 1>a genuine danger in creating sort of you know, Jesse

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<v Speaker 1>Jackson for white people, right, this this like permanent grievance status,

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<v Speaker 1>because look like it's it's It is true, there are

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<v Speaker 1>very real structural barriers. But the problem is the best

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<v Speaker 1>advice you can give to an individual, like a person

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<v Speaker 1>who has no ability to change kind of a system

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<v Speaker 1>is actually boomer advice. It is to pull yourself up

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<v Speaker 1>by your bootstraps. That can just be difficult to hear

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<v Speaker 1>from a source who shall always say does not have

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<v Speaker 1>your best interest at heart. Do you recognize that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of tension.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm identifying absolutely, and it is a problem because any time.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's correct, like you're right, the system is stacked

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<v Speaker 2>against white men in a number of significant ways. The

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<v Speaker 2>author does a great job of pointing this out. He

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<v Speaker 2>mostly focuses, I think, on creative industries and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the media stuff like that, academia, professions, things like that,

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<v Speaker 2>where there's these defined pads that are very easy to gatekeep,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think if you butt your head against those,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to experience this more than as just an

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<v Speaker 2>entrepreneur or an independent creator or something like that. But

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<v Speaker 2>the cards, it's true, are stacked against us. And when

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<v Speaker 2>you've already had the rug pulled out from you before

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<v Speaker 2>because you believe somebody's promises, you know, the story you

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<v Speaker 2>get in response to this all the time is, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>they told us to go to college and we get

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<v Speaker 2>a job, and we played by the rules, and we

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<v Speaker 2>did everything they said and went to college, got the degree,

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<v Speaker 2>and now I'm being replaced by you know, a guy

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<v Speaker 2>from India, and I can't get a job in the

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<v Speaker 2>film industry because of DEI. And it's true, So you're

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<v Speaker 2>not gonna then listen to those same people when they

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<v Speaker 2>come to you with good advice, when they say to you, listen,

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<v Speaker 2>the only way, the only way forward is to make

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<v Speaker 2>your own path. And and you know, not appeal to

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<v Speaker 2>people who other people who people really don't have your

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<v Speaker 2>best interests at heart. I don't I don't necessarily think

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<v Speaker 2>that the people the boomers were giving disingenuous advice or

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<v Speaker 2>evil advice when they told people. I think they genuinely

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<v Speaker 2>thought that was the right thing to do. And when

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't work out, nobody's going to listen to the

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<v Speaker 2>other things they say, which maybe are better advice because

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<v Speaker 2>the first thing didn't work. If I'm making sense there,

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<v Speaker 2>it's hard. It's hard for it's hard for somebody. We

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<v Speaker 2>look at a boomer, you know, the typical way you

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<v Speaker 2>see people respond to them on the right. Oh, this guy,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he had it easy. He you know, has

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<v Speaker 2>handed the greatest economy in history, and he made all

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<v Speaker 2>this money and now he's pulled up the ladder behind

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<v Speaker 2>him and stuff. And to some extent that's true, certainly

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<v Speaker 2>in the industries that the Savage pointed out. Uh, but

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<v Speaker 2>the general idea of you know, boomers had it universally easy,

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<v Speaker 2>and telling people to make their own way as bad

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<v Speaker 2>I think is completely counterproductive.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that there's also a there's an interesting I

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<v Speaker 1>think cast to this argument as well, which is, in general,

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<v Speaker 1>I actually think is entirely reasonable in the political landscape

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<v Speaker 1>to you know, to talk about and to address the

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<v Speaker 1>dispossession of young white men. I think that that is

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<v Speaker 1>a relatively speaking, winning strategy when compared to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>color blind Reaganite capitalism. Can we say that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for a bunch of random buzzwords that throw out there.

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<v Speaker 1>And so it's difficult again because oftentimes the people who

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<v Speaker 1>are trying to head this off at the path are

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<v Speaker 1>doing so so that they can substitute a sort of

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<v Speaker 1>return to you know, nineteen nineties conservatism. And the problem

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<v Speaker 1>is is it's like, well, okay, like some of their

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<v Speaker 1>specific critiques are in fact correct, but not for the

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<v Speaker 1>right reason, and they're not making them in they're not

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<v Speaker 1>doing that genuinely because they are primarily interested in the

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<v Speaker 1>success of young white men. They are primarily interested in,

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<v Speaker 1>at least in a stated sense, avoiding quote unquote identity politics.

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<v Speaker 1>And you mentioned, of course, the kind of dipping their

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<v Speaker 1>toe in the rubicon that you see often from the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of IDW types, and I think we can sort

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<v Speaker 1>of extend that to sort of like the good conservative,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the the kind of on the on the

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<v Speaker 1>reservation types. And I think that that's another point as well,

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of monies this discussion is at a certain point,

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't the discussion is not even really being had

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<v Speaker 1>in particular, it becomes a sort of friend enemy. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>are you a group I like or not? If you

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<v Speaker 1>see what I'm getting at there, man, Yes, So I think.

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<v Speaker 2>That there's a positive and a negative in framing the

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<v Speaker 2>political issue as we need we need to address the

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<v Speaker 2>needs of young white men, right. That's there's there's two

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<v Speaker 2>sides to that, two parts of that. On the one hand,

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<v Speaker 2>white men are being screwed over in different economic spheres

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<v Speaker 2>because they're white men at the same time, and and

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<v Speaker 2>economics there's there's it's very difficult to imagine, and economics

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<v Speaker 2>that just sort of universally benefits white men. Categorically, if

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<v Speaker 2>you're a blue collar young white man, then the world

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<v Speaker 2>that's going to benefit stockbrokers and media personalities and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that is not necessarily going to benefit you. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>if I'm trying to make money in the finance industry.

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<v Speaker 2>Tariffs aren't going to help me where they are going

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<v Speaker 2>to help the guy who wants to be an electrical engineer.

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<v Speaker 1>Things.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a class dimension to it as well that I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's very easy to paper over with this just

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<v Speaker 2>sort of appeal to whiteness as such or white maleness

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<v Speaker 2>as such. There's no economy it's going to universally benefit

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<v Speaker 2>all white men equally in economics. That's just what if

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<v Speaker 2>everything in economics benefit some people and not so much

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<v Speaker 2>other people, or not at all other people. In terms

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<v Speaker 2>of the critique, you know, Savage, is the critique you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned about the rubicon. Everything that goes back to Jeremy

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<v Speaker 2>Carl Wilso wrote a great article about this story. Savage's

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<v Speaker 2>critique is a liberal critique. He's making a liberal point.

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<v Speaker 2>He's saying liberalism is not working like it should and

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<v Speaker 2>it should be working, and we should be upset about that.

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<v Speaker 2>The implication of what he's saying is is that we

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<v Speaker 2>need to just sort of introduce, you know, this sort

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<v Speaker 2>of colorblind meritocracy, and the general rightist critique of that is, well,

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<v Speaker 2>all these other people are acting in their racial interests

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<v Speaker 2>such as it is, we should do that too. But

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<v Speaker 2>again it comes back to the point I was making before.

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<v Speaker 2>What is the white economic interest? Does it benefit white people?

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<v Speaker 2>Would be a financialized to me like neoliberalism wants. Does

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<v Speaker 2>it benefit white people to have a high tariff reindustrializing economy.

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<v Speaker 2>What's the what's going to benefit white people? And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think thinking about it that way is counterproductive. I

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<v Speaker 2>think that what we should be focusing on is how

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<v Speaker 2>do we use conditions as they exist to thrive and

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<v Speaker 2>then longer term or at the same time, how do

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<v Speaker 2>we change the system so that I, as a white

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<v Speaker 2>man with my neighbors and everything that can prosper