Speaker 1: The paranormal Zifos, Monsters, Mysteries that you're listening to Talking
Weird and know from a Kevin deep in the northwards
your host, Doctor Dean Bertram.
Speaker 2: Who.
Speaker 3: Greetings, are my fellow widows and weirdows. Welcome to Talking
Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host, Dean Bertram,
and as always I'm decided. I'm delighted rather that you've
decided to spend the next hour or so of your
life with me. Whether you're watching us live every Thursday
night at nine pm Central on YouTube or ex or Facebook,
or watching or listening to the show archived on those
sites after that time, or maybe you're listening to the
audio only version of the podcast which drops the following
Friday every week. Regardless, I'm delighted that you're going to
spend some time with me. And here's some very weird
Bigfoot tales tonight. I am so delighted with tonight's guest.
He's been on the show a number of times. He's
a very good friend of mine. He's a paranormal investigator, researcher,
author and filmmaker from British Columbia, Canada. And my goodness
is he prolific and busios just talking to him before
the show started, and quite in awe of all the
projects he's always churning out, which are always so impressive too.
He is the co founder of the Canadian Paranormal Society,
the co creator, writer and director of the award winning
web series We Want to Believe, and the author of
five books, the most recent being The Legend of Oga, Pogo,
Canada's Lockness Monster and Heart of Ice Tracking the Wendigo
from Small Town Monsters Publishing. He also appears in the
Small Town Monsters documentary's Cursed Waters, Creature of Lake Okanagan,
and On the Trail of Bigfoot The Origin. He's the
writer director of the recent Small Town Monsters documentaries Tracking
the Wind You Go and Sasquatch Legacy, as well as
the web series Sasquatch Quetch Sasquatch Quest Try Saying that
five times fast, which I believe is where we're going
to start our conversation tonight. So I'm delighted to have
back on the show, the one and only mister Jason
Ewits Greetings, Jason, good evening, Dean, how are you man.
I'm great, I'm happy to have you back.
Speaker 2: It's good to be here. Always, always a pleasure to
come on in chat. I think yours is one of
the first shows I ever ever did, way back in
the day when we launched We want to Believe, Wow,
it was already six years ago, so.
Speaker 3: Geeze time five. I remember having Pete and you won
one episode of Talking Weird as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I was on, then he was on,
then he and I were both on and something like that, right,
So it's yeah, time does fly. I can't believe how
long ago that was.
Speaker 3: Time. Always fun to see Pete in some of your
Small Town Monsters productions as well, including one of the
ones we're going to be talking about today. There's so
many of you, there's so many things I want to
talk to about you. But I think what we might
jump off with is the second most recent episode of
your awesome new series, Sasquatch Quest, and that's the one
that looks at the It's one of those historical stories,
which is anybody who's ever read extensively on Bigfoot always
came across and I knew I was fascinated by the
story from the age of a boy when I first
started reading Bigfoot stories. And that's about the capture of
potentially a juvenile sasquatch way back in the I think
it's the nineteenth century. Who who they named? I believe
it was Jocko. Was it Jacko?
Speaker 2: It was Jacko? Yeah, And that was like the eighteen
nineties or something like that, I think is when I
think it's happened. And it was outside of the town
of Yale, British Columbia, which is in the Fraser Valley,
at a location called Tunnel Numberumber four. And it was
happened at a time when the railroad was the primary
mode of transportation, you know, across Canada and across British Columbia.
And yeah, I mean, I'm like you, Dean, I mean,
I grew up reading sasquatch stories and all this kind
of stuff, and Jacko was one that always came up
because the prospect that someone actually captured a juvenile sasquatch,
potentially juven and juvenile sasquatch is amazing. But it's one
of those and it was before anyone even knew what
the term sasquatch hadn't even been coined yet, you know
what I mean. That didn't happen until decades later. And
then Bigfoot was even later than that, So it is
one of those classic Sasquatch folk tales. And so when
we had the opportunity when I when I was tasked
with doing Sasquatch Quest the series, I knew I wanted
to do it at Harrison Hot Springs with like Thomas
Steinberg and the Bookwa's Crew as kind of a companion
piece to Sasquatch Legacy. And the story was there, and
that Thomas had researched the story. It was one of
those things we just had to had to go do it.
Speaker 3: What fascinated me so much about this episode is again
it was something that I'd read the accounts of, you know,
or the accounts of many times in various big Foot books.
But to see the location that you got to go
out there and stand where this poor creature was allegedly
kind of trapped on this overhanging rock face, you know
what I mean, and the men went up above and
threw rocks at it till they knock him unconscious. Like cash,
you dropped off. So what was it like for you
being there? I mean, after like me being aware of
this story for so long.
Speaker 2: It was surreal, Like it was one of those real
surreal things. It was on like I think the third
day that we were down there, and we shot a
bunch of the day before, and we still had more
filming to do that night. But you know where we
were staying. It was only like about an hour and
a bit from Yale. So we drove there in the
morning with Thomas and he's like the only researcher I
think in British Columbia that had ever been there. Even
like John Green had never gone there or Neede to Hendon,
Grover Crowns, I don't think any of them had ever
been there. And Thomas told us after we had filmed
there that we were like the only documentary crew that
had ever been down there.
Speaker 3: Wow, that was quite a coup.
Speaker 2: And I couldn't believe it because I mean, you know,
there's so many people that have made Sasquatch documentaries long
before I ever tried to. But I guess it's just
one of those things that happened. So we drove to
a spot and then we had to hike in for
a lot longer than seems apparent on film, Like it
was quite a long hike in. It took like a
good half hour, and there's a chunk just before you
get to the tunnel number four, which is really narrow, so
we kind of had to move very quickly lest a
train came. And so we got there and it was
as close as you could get, and it was just
this surreal thing. And then have Thomas sort of stand
there and relay in great detail, and he is a
great storyteller, like he could tell it far better than
I ever could, the whole story and the history behind it,
and what apparently happened to Jacko after was just like
one of those like pinch me moments as a filmmaker
and as a research and as a writer, like to
be able just to be there doing this. It was,
like I think I said at the end of the episode,
one of the greatest moments of my life, at least professionally.
Speaker 3: You did. I was very impressed when you said that.
As somebody who's been in historical sites as well, I
know those moments when you went, wow, this is significant,
and I could see it on your face when you said.
I thought to it, I'm just so happy that Jason
gotts have that experience when he was making this film.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was great, and I mean so
I mean, for those that don't know it, that is
the location where the train had come. They'd seen Jacko
outside of this tunnel. He had attempted to climb away.
The other men went up like like Dean said, and
got to the top, were building him with rocks and
everything to knock them off and knock them out, and
they basically went out and tied them up and threw
them on the train. And the train continued onto Yale
to a location where it was like this train yard
and these buildings, and they kept Jacko inside one of
those buildings like no, I don't think anyone knows exactly
how long. And then he just and they kept feeding him,
et cetera, and he just kind of disappeared into the
annals of history, with one of the theories being that
he died because you know, he was not being properly
treated or you know, in this right environment, and two
that he'd ended up with like Barnum and Bailey's Barnum
and Bailey's no, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Circus, yeah it was did he was the original Jojo
the dog faced boy or something, yeah.
Speaker 2: Which is wild, you know what I mean. And then
eventually probably died from there too, and then was replaced
by someone else. And what's so wild about this is that, like,
it was pretty well publicized in the press back then,
but this was also an era where a lot of
journalism was what we would now call tabloid journalism, and
it was very sensationalized. And so did it actually happen
is the one thing no one can really prove one
hundred percent one way or the other. But if it
was true, as Thomas said, it was a missed opportunity
to solve a mystery before anybody even knew what the
mystery was, because nobody was talking about Sasquatch or wild
people in the woods in terms of like Western culture
at all at that time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's very it's such a poignant story because again,
if you are a believer in flesh and blood Bigfoot,
this might have, as Thomas said, and you just reiterated,
solved the Sasquatch mystery before it had even begun. But
even you know, even if you're like me, somebody who
has a different, you know, perspective perhaps in what Sasquatch is,
it's a very it's still a powerful story. It's a
powerful piece of folklore. Do you tend to lean either
way in your interpretation, Jason, do you tend to think
this was an example of yellow journalism or do you
tend to think there might have actually been something which was,
you know, anomalist caught on the ledge of that rocky
outcrop back in the eighteen nineties.
Speaker 2: I think even like tabloid journalism has a grain of
truth to it to some So something happened at Tunnel
number four. Maybe it was like some wild child from
the world, you know what I mean, of an indigenous
tribe or something that was captured and they just sort
of attributed to that. I believe something happened. I'm like you, like,
I kind of like I dance on that fence of
like flesh and blood and paranormal as well. Like I
kind of try to keep pretty open about that. But
I don't I don't know. I think I think something happened,
but I just don't know exactly what. I don't I
can't say for sure it was an actual juvenile sasquatch
because we just we just don't know, and you know,
there's no photographs from that time, et cetera.
Speaker 3: We had an interesting comment from NW Native track Is
saying Jacko was a real being according to my native grandmother,
and she was born in eighteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2: Well, and that would that would make perfect sense. Someone
from them would know more than us all these hundreds
of plus years later trying to put it together.
Speaker 3: So yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 2: There you have it. That could be very well the case.
Speaker 3: It's interesting eighteen ninety seven is in that date as well,
which is again around you know, the discovery of Jacko,
because that was, as you were mentioning, it's a period
where so much of classic forty in cases do get
muddied in this waters of you said, tabligjournalists, more yellow
journalism as they used to call it. Then the Great
Airship Flap of eighteen ninety seven is what that data
immediately brought to mind, the idea that there was this
massive craft that went across the US from almost coast
to coast, and every newspaper covered people in their areas
supposedly seeing this, you know, illuminated dirigible or heavier than
aircraft floating across America, and every paper seemed to have
its own version of who the crew might have been
and what the interactions were with locals. And it's so
difficult when you read that story is somebody whose wheelhouse
is more eufology than perhaps you know, cryptid research. It's
difficult to say what in there is somehow genuine? What
is it is just you know, a journalist spinning a
story because they know it's you know, taking America by
storm and let's have our own local airship story on
the front page this week.
Speaker 2: So exactly, and even factual stories were really written like
we're torqud up right in the way that they were
written right, And you could do that then. I mean
I was in journal newspapers, you know, for ten years,
and you couldn't do that because of the times it changed.
But back then you could get as colorful as you
wanted with the language. So even something that was a
true story, it could be pumped up a little bit.
Speaker 3: It's interesting before you said too that maybe Jacko was
perhaps an indigenous child or something. There's a similar story.
I forget the name of the which was given to
the entity, but there was a story in again around
that time. Somebody might know it in the chat and
they might be able to mention them. But but a story
from I think that period, late nineteen thirty twentieth century
of a wild woman being caught in somewhere in the
old Soviet Union, in a very rural area, and she
was essentially, I guess, press ganged by the local village
that found her into doing free labor for them, and
I think various men of the village, when they got drunk,
would go and you know, do unspeakable acts with her.
And she had a number of children, and some of
the children would die because she tried to wash them
in the in the icy cold river, you know, after
she'd given birth to them by herself, and it would
kill them. But a couple were saved by the locals.
And then apparently later they did genetic testing on the
descendants of this woman, and they all looked quite strange,
and they were bigger and they were stronger than the locals,
and I think it turned out that there was some
African DNA in there or something. So there was this
idea that this woman was maybe an African slave who'd
somehow escaped somewhere in the area, and then the locals,
not being used to people from Africa, had misidentified and
thought she was a wild person. So that's a similar
to what you were suggesting with Jacko. Maybe a misidentification
by somebody who wasn't familiar with something maybe in inherent
I guess of the period, you know, a stereotypical way
of looking at the world through you know, specific eyes.
So what you said, Daniel, that rings a real potential
bell of what might be the long forgotten explanation of
what Jacko really or who Jacko really was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it just works right, And I think
even NW Native Tracker said that Zara was the name
of the of the woman you were speaking of. Ye
just put that in Russia, I mean, and then there's
always there is still a chance that it could actually
be have been a juvenile Sasquatch. But I just think
if something's going to get misinterpreted, that would make sense,
and that would happen a lot in that era too, right,
with people not being as well read or as well
traveled and access to information that we all have today.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's an another thing here from Native Track of
talking about Jacko. Now, if you stay old traveling side show,
actually you can find billets of him and a few
photos of him.
Speaker 2: That's interesting historical do I'm sure somewhere there would be right, Yeah,
would have been maybe when he was on the road
with the Barnum and Bailey circus, right, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, possibly. And Bob Anturn, a very good friend of
mine and good friend of the show, says, there's a
variation that Jacko's story here in North Bend, similar story
but different location. Never figured out why that is. That's
interesting that then starts to take on the take on
the nature of folk tales, like every town has its
you know bridge where a bride committed suicide on every town,
but a lot of towns do, or a lot of
towns has you know this pla where you meant to see,
you know, a figure in why was you know, the
phantom hitchhiker or this is very common. So it's interesting
that Bob says there's a similar story in North ben
Washington here, and that makes you you wonder if what
the nature of the folk tale aspects of the story was.
Speaker 2: How many other story tale now, yeah, look a hundred percent,
Like we even have like near Boston bar one of
those stories about the hitchhiker, the female hitchhiker, ghost hitchhike,
we have one of those as well, that you know,
I mean, I think these stories just travel, especially when
they're rel tied into something that's especially nowadays as popular
in pop culture as sasquat ches. It just makes sense
you hear these stories were start to pop up everywhere. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean you're somebody who does as a documentary and
an awful lot of field work in this space as well,
which I admire when you've been doing the work that
you do. Are there stories that you have come across,
unlike Jacko, which are kind of open to you know,
various historical interpretations and the origins might be lost in
the annals of history now, But are there any particular
bigfoot stories which have really grabbed you and you've really
gone this this is something that indicates there really is
you know, where they smoke, there really is fire.
Speaker 2: I think one of the ones that we covered in
Sasquatch Legacy with Kent and j Moore, which is up
here in the interior of British Columbia. Him and his
friend had been out in the back country like hunting,
and they pulled over because his buddy had seen something
up on a ridge and had gone up the ridge
to take a look, and Kenton had stayed back with
his friend's two kids and this guy, his buddy just
came running back down the hill at full tilts, terrified
and like he's yelling, getting the truck, getting the truck.
It's a sasquatch. They all got in the truck and
this guy babies is like, you know, sixty thousand dollars
pickup and just tears out of there like a bat
out of hell, you know, and drives for kilometers. They
feels safe and can sort of settle down having a cigarette,
and was basically telling Kenton that he was looking around
and something had thrown this large log at him from
out of the tree line. Didn't see what it was,
but what else could pick up a large log? And
in this gentleman's mind, and so, you know, hearing that story,
and as Kenton says, like he doesn't believe in sasquatch,
but he believes in his buddy who has been his
best friend for his entire life and isn't going to
see him as a liar. And I trust Kenton's telling
of it. And so we went to that location in
the film and looked around and you know, found like
you know, potential prints of our own. And so I
had well in the woods, smelled some smells that just
didn't seem quite right. That kind of thing. So that
story to me sounds like it's a lot more like
that to me, is a credible story during our research,
et cetera. While we're doing this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it must be fine fun finding those kind of things.
Another thing which was very cool in the most recent
episode of of your new series Sasquatch Quest, and that
is when you were in Thomas's Thomas Steinberg's library or
his office, and he shows you the full the Patterson
Gimwin film, including including an awful lot of an awful
lot of I suppose footage that that hasn't isn't regularly
regularly seen. And we had somebody commenting a minute ago
saying that the Jacko story has been debunked and accused
us of lying, which I don't think is the case.
I think it has probably many people say it's a hoax,
but I think it still is one of those stories
which is which has resonated throughout throughout the big Footlaw,
and I think that's why it's still worth talking about it.
I don't think we're trying.
Speaker 2: It hasn't gone away, and I don't think well much
like like we're just talking about the Patterson Gillan film
and when we filmed that. That was before all the
everything that came out about the Patterson Gillin film. Since
I think that that upcoming documentary, that's what I was.
Speaker 3: Going to do. I was gonna I was going to
give you the floor for a minute. So I'll give
you the full screen just to maybe talk about your
feelings on watching that and then segue if you can
in a little if you have any take on these
new accusations of these new suggestions that the Patterson give
One film is a hoax, not that they knew. People
have been suggesting it for a number of decades.
Speaker 2: Now, almost since it was it came out. Yeah, basically
was the case with these kind of films exactly.
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe wex a little bit on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. I mean it was like most people like,
we've only seen that one sort of I think, you know,
sixteen to thirty second clip of this of Patty walking
across the tree line, turning, looking at the camera and
continuing on. But Thomas has the full footage that was shot,
and that's sort of what we show in the latest
episode is just let the camera and it's not playing
on his computer, and I just ran the camera while
he let it play out, so you can see this
this playout. And it was really neat to watch the
entirety of this footage because it just we only see
that one clip. So it just at the time watching
this felt it lent a little more credibility to everything,
even though I have my doubts about the footage as well.
And I think that this film that's coming out, this
Capturing Bigfoot, I mean, it's only screened once, only a
handful of people have seen it. Everybody's got their own
opinion on where whether it's proves that the Patterson Gillman
film as a hoax or not. There was a screen
that was supposed to take place afterwards, it was canceled,
and now the film's supposed to be coming out in September.
I believe so a lot of people, especially a lot
of people in the realm of Sasquatch research, are going
to be curious to watch it as am I. As
is Thomas Steinberg, and he knew Patterson and you was
a friend of his, and so he's very curious now too,
because if this turns out that this documentary can prove
give irrefutable proof the film's a hoax, that's a blow
to someone who is a friend. But my idea is
is we put a lot, way too much weight on
the Patterson Gimlin film as the determining yay or nay
when it comes to Sasquatch. Indigenous people have been hearing
stories about sad They've been seeing Sasquatches a part of
their culture. It's gone on for thousands of years. Stories
were published in newspapers and books long before the Patterson
Gillman film came along. So I think we need to
stop focusing on the Patterson Gilllan film as the be
all and end all of Sasquatch and just look at
the fact that people are still having experiences out in
the woods. Stories are still coming forward, and there has
been historical stories dating back thousands of years, and so
I just think that's what we need to focus on
instead of focusing on this one This one film, whether
or not at the Patterson Gillman film as a hope,
doesn't mean anything when it comes to Sasquatch as a
broader subject of research.
Speaker 3: Right, Gee, And I tend to agree with you. I mean,
I thought the I've thought the film is a hoax
for a very long time. Now, But that's that's another story.
Do you think I think your advice is wise, that
there's other things that can be looked at and focused on.
But have you, as somebody who I think is more
involved with the big Foot community than I have, have
you felt this that this documentary, which most people haven't
even seen yet, do you think the allegations and the
publicity around it had a big impact within the community.
Did you see people either double down in the defense
of it or did you see people splinter off and
start to say, Okay, it's time to distance ourselves from
this film.
Speaker 2: Like initially it seemed like a lot of people that
it split as always right, it split things into so
the people who are the naysayers were like aha, and
the people who who are the believers kind of doubled
down on it. And this all happened, I know, before
Alex Pedakoff and I went off to work on our
Journey Tape Island documentary, So we talked about this a lot,
and that's kind of what I did. My little soapbox
rant was what he and I came to the conclusion
of all we were off filming our own documentary. But
I think it was divisive, and I think, like I mentioned,
for people who were friends with those that made that
were involved by Patterson and Gimlin, that's to be friends
with someone like that and believe them so so strong,
it creates that shadow of doubt and then you kind
of just just wonder, right like how they would feel.
So I know when we with Thomas at the end
of our Ape Island shoot and talk to him, that's
the first question he asked me, and I'm like, what
do you think. I haven't seen it, and I need
to see it. I can't comment on it until I
see it. And that's sort of my thing too, Like
people have asked me, what do I think. I haven't
watched this documentary, you know, so I need to watch
it before I can form an opinion on what they're presenting. Yeah,
they've got a great marketing hook. They've got everybody interested
in watching the documentary.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a healthy that's a healthy position to take.
I think I'm certainly curious to see it. Horace had
a question before. Horace Smith, who's professor Emmeris of Astronomy
and Physics at Michigan State University, a good friend of
mine and a good friend of the show. He asks,
were hair clippings kept from Jecko had that?
Speaker 2: I honestly have no idea, and Tom Steinberg probably would,
And it's in his book that he didn't write the book,
but he wrote the forward for it. That's a good question, actually,
And I can't even remember if it came up when
we were talking about it when we were doing that shoot.
Everything happens so fast when you're on one of those
documentary shoots.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, I mean, I suspect not, but I
certainly know that Thomas tells the story. I believe one
of the theories or one of the tales about what
happened to Jacko was that he was handed over to
a nunnery and they shaved all of his hair off
to try to make him look like a more human
being and that but after him in scolding water or
something and it killed him.
Speaker 2: Which that's why again, that's one of the stories around it, right,
I don't.
Speaker 3: Know if those nuns would have kept that hair. And
it's a terrible story, but it also it also has
a ring of, I don't know, just a of almost
like a my carb horror tale to it. It doesn't
it it might it rings true at some very you know,
archetypal level, But I think when you step back and
look at it, I don't think that story is probably
what happened to Jacko.
Speaker 2: Somehow, it's amusing and it's not amusing to think about
was horrible to think about that, but it's amusing how
so many people have come up with all these different
all these different theories around it. Right, It's just how
one of those stories goes speculation, you know.
Speaker 3: Absolutely are you? Are you working on the next episode
of Sasquatch Quest?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 3: I'm curious what we're going to see in the near future.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So we just finished our kind of episode seven,
which was the last episode that we filmed down with
Thomas and the crew in Chiliwac, And this one relates
to a case that Thomas Steinberg investigated in nineteen eighty six,
and it was at that point he was ready to
give up and quit researching, and then something happened that
kind of reinvigorated his interest in the case. And it
was one of those opportunities, I don't want to get
into too much of it, those opportunities where you're having
to catch the people who were the witnesses of this event,
and Thomas is the one that found all the tracks.
He found like one hundred tracks in relation to this encounter.
And usually it's like someone else who says they had
this experience points you to the tracks that they saw.
And so I guess there's always that question in the
back of a researcher's mind, as did this person who's
this alleged witness actually put to make the tracks themselves
or not? But he was the one that found the tracks,
and so we kind of tell that's story and how
important it was to his I guess life is a
sasquatch researcher because he was going to quit and then
come back. And we also touch on in that episode
something called the Mission Bus hoax, which is this big
sort of sasquatch hoax that occurred outside of Mission VC,
and just tell that story as well, because a lot
of people it's basically this story about how people are
on this bus along this highway they see a sasquatch
run across the road. Everyone gets very excited. The RCMP
came out, John Green comes out, Renada Hindon comes out.
They all sort of believe it. And then on a
radio show, these guys from the UBC Engineering, the School
of Engineering call and said that they basically staged the
entire thing, and it's how that kind of fooled so
many people. Yeah, it's a fun story to talk about it.
And as much like with the allegations with the Patterson
Gillman film, how hoaxes can kind of really muddy the
waters of real serious research and the damage it can
do and something which isn't taken as seriously as sasquatch
or a lot of paranormal things. In the end, we
talk about that.
Speaker 3: I think, as Gray Barker would have said about uthology,
it's all part of the pattern. Hope is a part
of the story as well, you know, so the irony years.
I'm sure Barker had tongue in cheek when he told
I think was bark who said that. But I also
think k and other people have written elsewhere that the
hoaxing does seem to be part of the phenomenon itself,
and that could you could take that at a very
and I'm just talking generally about anomalous Phenomen'm just speaking
about Bigfoot or UFOs or anything in particular, although this
was probably in reference to UFOs, but that's if, for example,
somebody like Georgia Damsky, who's always incredibly dismissed. If a
Damski did have some kind of weird spiritual contact with
the other, then he lived in a time where he
might have felt culturally pressured to provide some type of
evidence that he was unable to provide, and maybe or
encounters with the other leavers with no real evidence. But
when you're living in a time period where the anecdotal
story won't travel like it did in you know, I
don't know, eighteenth century Ireland when you were telling a
fairy tale or something, if you lived in a time
where there was a need to provide proof, I think
sometimes it does become part of the pattern. It becomes
part of Okay, well this person cooks something up, and
then this may be inspired somebody else to believe something,
or maybe this actually inspired the phenomenon to behave in
a certain way. Like I think, one of the mistakes
a lot of you know, the scientistic type researchers do,
is a hoax or something that smells a little too
immediately real, a little too visceral. It just seems like
it can't be real. Just throw this out. But if
this is part of if this is part of a
process or part of a phenomenon which is somehow linked
to us psychologically or sociologically or spiritually, maybe we should
be more careful with the stories that we throw overboard,
because maybe they are just as important as the things
which we tend to take as more you know, a
legitimate report or a legitimate encounter. So I do think
it's worth still looking at the jeckos and and looking
at the even though I've thought it was oax, looking
at the Patterson Gimlin footage, and looking at the Adamski stories,
because they weave into this cultural mythology which we can't
even understand the phenomenon without understanding. So just to throw
those things over we're not even to look at this.
It's all nonsense. That's that's that's a naive say.
Speaker 2: I think, I agree hundred percent. Like you have to,
I think, look at everything as it's presented to you,
and then once something is proven as a hoax, then
you just let it go and then keep focusing on
the other phenomena, because I mean, you can't, like we
do this as investigators, like Pete and I when we're
investigating you know, the paranormal occurrences. Every you can go
into a location where there's been paranormal activity, you can
have something happen that you can't disprove, but it doesn't
then mean that everything else that happens in that location
is paranormal. You got to look at every little piece
that happens. It's almost like its own story and separated
from everything else, and just sort of go piece by piece.
And I think you know the same is true with
sasquatch or anything like that. Just because something just because
you can't disprove something doesn't mean that everything you then
take is fact. And just because something you've been able
to disprove something doesn't mean everything after that is bs, right,
I guess, is what I'm trying to say. I think
the Enfield poltergeist case was one of those where they
documented thousands of pieces of paranormal activity that the girls
at the same time were also caught hoaxing little of
little things within, right, like just to kind of keep
people's interest going. Because you're right, there's I think a
pressure then to perform, especially if you get like media
and camera crews and everybody else involved, right, I think
that just comes with sadly can put pressure on people
to make sure something's happening all the time.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I mean who And again, the real problem
with the study of any of this stuff is people
who have already such a predetermined idea of what it is.
Whether it's this is all just nonsense, or whether it's
this is all you know, some lost you know, forgotten
hominid in the woods, whether this is an undiscovered species
of American ape, whether the sources are from Zeta articular,
or whether the sources are from Venus, or whether the
sources are from anywhere. I think that the danger and
we're going to be talking about Keel on your show
in the not too distant future. But the danger is
something that John Keele summed up very nicely, and that
is that the enemy is belief, or belief is the enemy.
And that is when you, I think, when you when
you come to this holding any position, all you're going
to ever hit is confirmation bias for your position. You're
never going to actually learn anything more about the phenomenon
you're studying, or woe betide learn more about yourself or
learn more about humanity. You're just going to be locked
into this very predetermined position, and all you're ever going
to want to do is build up that belief system
you already have. That's all that happens. And you see
it again and again and again and again with almost
everybody you talk to in this space. It's it's scary. Really,
it's not scary the wrong way. It's disappointing. This is
the way is a species we approach these things, you know.
Speaker 2: Well, and especially in our era, where you've got like
an algorithm that will tailor everything that you're researching towards
whatever you know your eyss seems to be once you're in,
so it really makes it even more dangerous, which is
I think we're seeing why we're seeing so much strife
and all these severe polarizations of opinion out in the world,
and people not being able to accept what other people
are talking about. I really hate it in this field
when people put themselves forward, or even when I'm presented
as being some kind of expert in any of this stuff.
I don't know Jack, you know, and I've been researching
it for thirty years. I'm new to the sasquatch stuff,
but I'm learning. But even people like like you know,
Thomas Steinberg, don't consider themselves an expert. They just have
They're just looking for whatever information they can And as
Thomas has said in our series a few times, stick
to the facts, don't deviate from them, don't start filling
in holes with just like your own ideas that you're
just riffing off the top of your head. And you're
right about the belief is the enemy. I think you
don't want to really. I think it's I hate to
say I'm a believer in this stuff, but I'm I've
had experiences that I can't explain, and so that keeps
me looking. There's sort of the closest I can get.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's fine to acknowledge that there's something there.
I think to try to just say there's nothing there
is more naive than in some ways even attaching some
moderate belief system to it. But it's so difficult to
have conversations with people who in any field, like you
mentioned before, and obviously clearly we're in a time where
political arguments, people won't even have a discussion if you're
on the other side of the political burialrhythm, and we
are living in a time where you write algorithms just
keep you in an echo chamber, so all you're hearing,
and whether it's an algorithm cleverly built by you know,
a social network and it just keeps feeding in you,
you know, what you're clicking on and what you're liking
and what you're watching, or whether it's a more simple,
older algorithm. In other words, you have a certain demographic
that just watches Fox News, or a certain demographic that
just watches C and N. That's your echo chamber there,
because you're just going to hear from your talking heads
the same versions of reality. And when you encounter somebody
whose entire reality has been shaped by the other channel
or the other network, or the other social media algorithm
wherever they're consuming their stuff, you just you're you're sure,
you're right. And it's why it's very difficult today to
have an actual a discussion with somebody that doesn't become
super argumentative because they're pre programmed by very sophisticated, very
sophisticated propaganda machines. And I think that applies to the
paranormal as well. I think if somebody is you know,
is in the Bigfoot camp and is a member of
in the physical Bigfoot camp, and I don't know a
member of BFRO, and they all they do is you know,
read you know, newsletters about know how this is, you know,
some relict species or whatever. They're going to believe that
very strongly. And if somebody is of a more you
know what derogatory is, derogatively caught, it's called the WU camp,
then they're going to read this all spiritually. And there's
there's no real middle ground. Often the people to the
people to come together and you see, yeah, and anyway
we could go through all of reality. The whole whole
world is separated like this. But I think the problem
when it comes to the paranormal is more than politics.
We're talking about the very nature of reality and there
are very deep and important things to learn about here
that go beyond just the new cycle of today or
the political cycle of today. And perhaps the people who
are interested in this stuff could learn more about the
very nature of the reality they're invested in by living
in it. But if all they do is want to
argue their points, they're never going to find a bigger truth. Ever.
Speaker 2: No, I agree one hundred percent. And I mean we
were talking earlier about how like the Flesh and Blood camp,
and then that the paranormal camp. Like, like I I'm
a paranormal investigator. That's what I started off doing. So
I believe that there could be spiritual components to Sasquatch,
and the Indigenous people definitely talk about their spiritual components
and how it's in their culture and how it's like
a dimension walker and a forest spirit and a protector.
At the moment, I'm though, approaching the subject for more
of a flesh and blood camp, only because I haven't
had a paranormal experience with Sasquatch, you know what I mean. Like,
I want to start somewhere and kind of work my
way backwards. That's all. That's the only thing. But I
think you're right. You can't dismiss anything one. You can't
dismiss the possibility that that's there, because then you're locking
yourself out of part of the mystery and the truth.
And our world is not that simple, and we're learning
that all the time. There's research going on with like
DMT and how it's more of a poor opens your
mind to a poor a completely different dimensions. People are
saying they might They all are referring that they're going
to the same place, but they're being greeted by different
kinds of beings. Wit. This is a whole other topic,
but it's just something I still across recently. So there's
that could answer a whole bunch of questions in terms
of reality and the paranormal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Terrence McKenna did all those studies back in the day,
and he called themself articulating machine elves or something. They're
essentially like gray extraterrestrial. So you could encounter if you
did the d MT dose that he told you to
and as aahuasca, there's other hallucinogens that generate these type
of very vivid experiences of a different reality. And I mean,
I've never experimented with any of those things, mainly because
I'm too much of a control free to I wouldn't
be good. I wouldn't be good out of my mind
for you several hours. It just wouldn't wouldn't work with me.
But I wonder if that cracks the walls of reality.
I wonder if that does for the people who are
the proponents of it, does offer us some insights into
our reality. And I think without having to engage in
anything like that, I think the study of some of
the anomalous topics we're talking about tonight's by study. You're
trying to approach it with as few blinders as possible
and as broad as you can. So not just sasquatch,
not just UFOs, not just ghosts, but cast your net
very widely. I think then, much like perhaps you know
a d MT trip, then you might start to see
some cracks in the veil of reality that you've been
comfortably living in. And I think that's the value of
being interested in this stuff, to be honest, that maybe
it can tell us more about us and our reality.
While most people are obviously they're more interested in, you know,
what is Bigfoot, or proving what Bigfoot is, approving what
UFOs are, or if we knock on the doors of
the government and yell for you know, revelations, long enough,
disclosure will come. They want they want this predetermined belief
system to be somehow proven and justified. Well, I think
they're missing out and saying all of these things, whatever
they are, whether they are you know, extraterrestrials or whether
they are hairy relics, or what this is telling us
something about very different about our reality that we're existing in.
Maybe that's maybe that's the joy that can come from
this actually opening our eyes to this stranger universe that
we're operating in, and word beside, they're all actually connected,
like people like John Keele suggested, then what does it
tell us about our reality?
Speaker 2: Well, that's why I think it's so unfortunate that the
like the big Foot camp doesn't like the ghost hunting camp,
and the ghost hunting camp doesn't like the UFO camp,
you know, and no UFO people don't seem to like anybody,
whereas like if we all kind of started trying to
work together. But I think part of that is you're right.
I think it's everyone. Someone in each one of these
groups wants to be the one that comes provides the
big aha moment answer, And so that's why nobody wants
to work together. Right. I think that's a mistake because
and that's why with came Paranormal Society. When Pete and
I formed it, we always said, like we're, yes, we're
ghost hunters, but we want to look into Sasquatch, we
want to look into the UFOs and all this other
phenomenon has we come across it. We're not shutting our
minds off to any one particular thing even though we
might not be experts and we started doing the sax
squat stuff, we didn't know jack about what we were doing,
which is why went can I with Thomas Steinberg and
his people. But I think you have to be open
to all this because I, like Keil and you and
I have talked about this. I think even on our
very first conversation, Dean, believe that all of this is
all part of in some way the same phenomenon, right,
And that's kind of as close as I'll get to, like,
you know, getting WU today. But that's I think it's
all part of the same phenomenon, and it is an
integral part of our experience here on this planet, and
we do not understand it. I think I think we
said this before, we were talking about there was a
time when we were in better had a better relationship
with it, and we've lost that, and I think we
need to get back to it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think we live in a time now, in this
modernity or you know, postmodernity or whatever you want to
call it, where we have lost touch with, for lack
of a better term, the other You know, whether you
want to define that as spiritual or whether you want
to define that as you know, whatever and the other
intelligence or the other force or the other energy that
isn't us, And throughout history we weren't so disconnected. And
I always and I mentioned it one hundred times, and
people who listen to the show regularly probably seek to
me talking about it. But I always talk about fairy
faith in Ireland, where there was a very clear understanding
that was taught through the folkal or through the faith,
of how you should and shouldn't deal with the other
you know, the times you shouldn't go out during the year,
you know, when it was dangerous, and how it was
better not to engage it. But if you ended up
engaging at what were the protocols? And there was a
real understanding of what it meant to encounter another advanced
intelligence which wasn't human, you know. But today nobody's taught that.
Churches don't even well, most churches don't even teach that.
There's no idea of how you're what's the rule book
for when you bump into something which isn't us. When
when you're little, hopefully your peers, it's taught you strange
a danger, so you knew what the rules were of
you know, some creepy go in and overcoat approached you
in a park and wanted to talk to you. Right,
you run and scream, but you're not taught when you're
a little kid. Well, if you know, you wake up
in the middle of the night and there's a weird
figure at the end of your bed, or if you're
walking home from Billy's house across the on the other
side of your forty acre back a lot late at
night you see a weird little man, you know, there's
never any This is how you should behave when you
encounter these things, and we don't know, we don't have
any And even even modern religions don't really teach you
other than you know, maybe encouraging a prayer life or something,
but they don't They don't teach you how to how
what you do if you encounter directly some non human intelligence.
But traditionally cultures did. There was very clear understandings of
how we went to behave and I think where I
think our cultures bereft of that today. To be honest, I.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent, and I know like the indigenous cultures
would again talk to you about how to prepare for
these things. It was why it was such a huge
important part of their culture, you know. And I don't
like speaking too much on their behalf because I'm not Indigenous,
but you're right, there was a time, like you know,
back in England, they'd tell you what to do if
you saw a spirit, you know, the churches would say
what you do if something you saw a monster? And
now it's like, you know, if you if you're a kid,
and I remember being a kid going to my mom
with something that I couldn't understand and she's like, oh,
you just imagined it, like you know what I mean,
And it's like, no, what I saw scared the living
crap out of me. And I know it was there
and it was real, right Like I just so I
try when I talk to people who have experiences, I
try to be understanding and open and sympathetic and you know,
offer some suggestions on what to do if, especially if
it's something like dealing with what they believe is a
spirit in their house. But even as someone who's been
doing this for so long and feels pretty prepared, I
still have stuff happened that throws me for a complete loop.
I think I'm as prepared as IM ever going to be,
and then something happens. It just changes my view of
reality again, and it leaves you kind of stunned for days.
So you know, so I think sometimes this stuff just
has that impact on you, no matter how prepared you
are for it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting because you before how you'd spent a
considerable amount of time in the paranormal space, when you've
gone out into the field doing you know, the bigfoot
documentaries and bigfoot research. I know you said you hooked
up with Thomas Steinberg and you know, his crew recently.
But were you concerned, were you like, I really don't
know what I'm you know, were you conscious of you
kind of understood the protocols of you know, dealing with
what we consider the paranormal, like ghosts or spirit beings,
but we did it kind of strike you, cheez. I
don't know how to what am I even going to
do if I encounter a bigfoot out here in the woods.
Speaker 2: Well, no, I had no idea. And I in the
first episode of Sasquatch Quest. I don't know if you've
seen that, Dean. That's when we're in my colleague Olivia
and I go up to this lake and we got
like we got we thought we were so well prepared,
and we got blindsided by snowstorm, even though it was
like two weeks before Halloween and there shouldn't have been
any snow, and we you know that we got to
the location, we had to hike in because of the weather,
so we had to hike further and then we ended
up we couldn't find we were trying to get to
at this cabin because the weather's going to go crappy,
and there's like a bobcat roaming the area, so you've
got this physical threat of animals in the woods, which
you don't have when you're in somebody's home and looking
for a ghost. And then on top of it all,
we started hearing things from a tree line and broke
out our thermal camera and we could hear footsteps in
the snow of something approaching us and like this weird
like growling, clicking sort of sound. And then we picked
up on the thermal camera a heat source of a
humanoid shaped image standing within the tree line where we're
hearing these noises come from. Wow, it would almost like
bluff charges, like run forward on two legs and then retreat,
and then run forward and then retreat and we Allie
and I both have our firearms license. We had guns
with us, Ali we had. We brought the gun out
to load it. And Olie has spent I've grown up
in the woods. I've spent a lot of time in
the wilderness, but he spends like weeks by himself in
the bush. He's a hunter and all this, And so
when he said we should leave, I listened to him
because at this point, you're like fifty five kilometers up
a mountain in the middle of nowhere, in the middle
of a snow storm, and there's definitely something large in
human shape out there making noises, and it's bathing aggressively
towards us, and we're not prepared for that. We need
to leave, and so we did. That was an eye
opener because it's like, unlike some things with like with
the ghost hunting, there was a physical threat here and
that's very different than anything else I had experienced up
until that point. And I've been researching you a lot
more since then, and I've had other experiences, but it's
just I think when it comes to cryptid research, you're
dealing with stuff that, even if it is has a
paranormal factor to it. It also has a very physical component
to it as well, and that can do you some
serious real harm if you're not smart.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And of course if you were out in those
kinds of the areas you mentioned a bobcat before, I'm
not sure what's there, but they could be bare wolves,
Lord knows where.
Speaker 2: Well, we have everything in my neck. We have grizzlies
in my neck of the woods, right, So you've got
to take that into consideration too, I bet.
Speaker 3: So it's just as well you have you have your
lost in Canada and you can be armed. I won't
even go into my back forty, you know what I
mean without a hangout on my hip the case, because
there's stuff here. There's not grizzlies. But we got black bear,
we got Bobcat, we got cougar sometimes coming through. We've
got wolf, we've got client, We've got all kinds of things.
And you never know what you're going to counter in
the woods. Letting in a bigfoots that.
Speaker 2: Would be a whole other thing on top of it
all good grill. We never were able to figure out
what that was, but we just you know, we've since
been back in that sort of the final episode of
this season, the sasquatch question, is us going back looking
for answers, you know, in far more agreeable conditions. So
but yeah, I just that was a big learning curve,
and I like, I won't go into the woods without
a without a firearm just for my own person, for
protection from other things.
Speaker 3: Right, makes total sense. Flat Rockland, Matt Ackland, a good
friend of mine says, there's a bob cat and Dean's treehouse.
There was a bobcat last summer in my daughter's treehouse
in the backyard. I videoed it. Yeah, it was my
daughter's like, what's in the what's out there? She's pointing
out the window. I'm like, there's something big in the
tree and I'm like a deer couldn't have got up there.
And then I look at it rises up, but it's
just it's a full it's a big it's a big
bobcat as well, Like it's a big one. So it's like, well,
I'm glad we went outside, you know. And I thought
it's going to get the chickens, because the chickens walk
around there, so I went out and scared it off. Anyway,
we get very big bobcats, very big. Yeah, it's scary.
The idea that there are things out there that you
don't even see over they're there all the time. So
we've lived in ten years, I've heard them anytime we've
ever seen one. They're here all the time. But you
never see these predators. They're just they're doing their own thing.
Speaker 2: And yeah, they're aways around and they're on't bug you typically,
Like you know, I had a place at a cabin
on a lake for my whole youth. We go out
there every summer and there's you know, i'd walk right
by bears that aren't even thinking about it, you know
what I mean, But they were there and they just
don't They don't cause your problems most of the time, right,
you just be smart.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that's true. Something I'd like to talk to
you about for the next ten minutes or so. It's
just stuff that I myself like talking about. And that's
your approach is a documentarian when you're doing these things
like there's there's certain there's certain challenges which I think
are unique to the paranormal the cryptozoological space. When you're
going out to film the type of things that you
go out to film. What what what? What's your kind
of approach what's your methodology when you're going out to
tell a bigfoot story or to look for something.
Speaker 2: Basically, I think part of it is to try to
be as well prepared as you can. Like when we
did the Sasquatch Quest series, we prepared for like you know,
we were at we had sort of a short window
before we could start shooting it, but we prepared as
best as we could by reaching by having lots of
meetings with like the Buckwahs crew and figure out where
we wanted to go and who we'd want to talk to,
and what the terrain was like and what you know,
what we could expect that way, and so then you
just kind of go out and you know, you got
to be ready. The big thing is you can It's
like that old Muhammada Lee quote. Everybody's got a plan
until they get punched in the face. You've got to
be prepared for something to go wrong and be flexible
in your planning. Like the episode that just had come
out at the Sasquatch Mountain Resort actually came together on
the drive down from Camlin Stairs and Hot Springs. It
wasn't even originally in the whole plan. It was just
this opportunity that came up, so we had to on
the flight sort of figure out how we were going
to fit it into the schedule, what we could drop,
et cetera. And then I really like to and if
I can do it, I do it. First is all
the interviews I need to do, like sit down talking
head interviews, because you never know, like you have all
your questions, and then you'd be prepared for your interviewees
to take you wherever else they might want to take you.
And that's good because they could lead you to things
again you never would have thought of. So do those
first if you can, and then you start going out
to the actual locations where these things happen, and the
talking with the witnesses who maybe are going to see
they're doing your b roll filming your investigation. That way,
I know it journeyed Ape Island, which Alex and I
filmed in April. We started preparing for it in November
of last year, and we had meetings almost like every week,
and we really planned it down to a t and
shared information and try to, you know, just figured the
whole thing out as best we could. And even then,
as people will see when they actually watched the documentary
later this year, and read the book just how that
even things went wrong doing that and you just had
to fui able to jump with it. But even then,
like when things go wrong, you got to be prepared
for things to go wrong, so you make sure, especially
going to remote places, you've got like you know, a
garment device or a SAT phone or anything like that,
Starlink tire repair kits, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: I can't wait to see that. I love Alex Petta cooffee,
such a great guy, so I'm excited to see something
you guys have done together.
Speaker 2: It was great. He was, he was. He and I
had never worked together before that, Like we've met at
like Monsterfest and when he was they were up here before.
But you know, to spend well, if you spend eighteen
days in the bush with someone, you either become best
friends or biggest enemies. And we're like best friends. Stuff
works really well, very we work very well together and
very very similar work ethics and approaches to things.
Speaker 3: Well, that's good. That must make it, must make it
an easier shoot. Did you have you been out when
you're trying to like actually, like you mentioned before, there
was something bluff charging you. I haven't seen that episode.
Have their challenges when you're trying to film something like
that in the field, like the things you've missed, their
things like I didn't have ready and there was something
behind that tree and I didn't get it or what
what what? What's what about that? Do you think is unique?
And how do you deal with that when you're making
films like this?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and it's something that could get you. You're
kind of like because we didn't know, like when we
went up there, the whole plan was we knew that
there was this cabin where these people had had kind
of was a launching point for these people's experience. It
was like a Hunter Fisher cabin. So it's remote and
I've been there years ago for where we want to
believe episode, so I can't you know. But again, the
weather turned and then you have stuff start happening, So
you've got to be prepared on the fly just be
able to start dealing with that. So a big part
of that is being able to keep your cool even
though stuff's happening that's out of your realm of control, right,
and so you know, like it's if you've got to
make sure you've got all everything's charged and ready to go,
and you've got all your batteries. But even in a
situation like that, the cold, the cold drains your batteries quicker.
So it's just yeah, being really good. And if you're
with someone, you've got to really be able to trust
them that they're going to be able to perform and
they're as capable in those situations as you are. And
all he is, I mean, like I said, he's an
avid outdoorsman, very experienced, and he's a BC sheriff so
he's in law enforcement, so he's on his shoulders and
stuff like that too, right.
Speaker 3: So Sandy, Yeah, yeah, no, that is very cool. Put
the specific cameras that you needing, perhaps to capture things
at not or to capture there is a unique equipment.
Do you think that you might need doing this compared
to doing a more IUESS standard documentary where you went
out in the woods trying to capture sessquatch.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Mike, I have a camera that has night vision,
we have thermal cameras, we have infrared cameras and infrared lighting.
We've got like you know, digital recorders with really good
like you know, omnidirectional sound. You know, especially when you're
in the woods and trying to pick up whoops and
oxy that definitely you need it. I mean a lot
of that we use for ghost hunting too, but as
opposed to say doing a documentary where you're just interviewing
people in you're in a more urban setting, Yeah, you
need all this other special equipment. And if you're in
the woods, you then want to make sure you're also
dressed appropriately with you know, like hiking boots and thermal
underwear and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, all of that would be challenging. I know
I and I wasn't even out in the woods woods,
but I made a narrative short film this fall through winter.
I thought it would take me maybe a week or
two to shoot. It took me four months. And part
of the reason was the snow, because I had to
set lights outside and I had to do a little
bit of exterior stuff. I had to light outside going inside,
and everything is twice as hard at night, and everything
is twice a three times hard again when it's snowing
or when it's cold, and so the struggle was real.
Speaker 2: I'm sure.
Speaker 3: My girlfriend Samantha, who was a producer on that film,
is probably laughing listening right now, because it was and
this is like just outside my house. It was hard
making a film in the winter. But if you're out there,
like you're talking about, you know, on the mountain trying
to film Bigfoot and the snow's belting down, only imagine
how difficult it must be.
Speaker 2: Well it is, and you're like, you know, we'd hike
two kilometers from the truck too, because the truck couldn't
get in, So you're kind of like you really feel
alone out there, you know, and you're just kind of
like and the ground's getting slippery. It's just, yeah, all
these things that just add a whole other level too,
I guess, almost of danger to the to the procession,
like it's it's not It would have been different if we,
you know, we were just interviving some person to the
middle this field and that started snowing. But just the
hike in and then the fact there's actually something out
there and we also know there's other predators out there too,
you know what I mean, And it just yeah, just
created this real I haven't forgotten it. I don't think
I ever will forget that experience, just because of just
how and I thought I was so ready for it,
and then I wasn't. And so when we filmed the
rest of the series, I was ready for a lot
of that. Like every time I go and film something,
I learned something new every time, and I think, just
get better at it.
Speaker 3: I think that's I kept everything in life. You just
have to keep going and you do, you do improve.
Last time we had you on, I think we talked
about howt of Us your wonderful book on tracking the
Wind to go. People can go back and listen to that.
But if you want to, I'll show you other recent
book two in a minute. But people should read this book.
You want to talk a little bit about this because
it's a great book. We only got about five minutes,
but let's just talk about the two books. I'm going
to mention quick this and the Lake Monster one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, her device. It's basically an investigation into the
Wendigo stories up here in Canada in northern start in
Northern Alberta and includes a journey an expedition up to
Northern Alberta where I connect with Morgan Knutsen, who knows
a lot about like you know, the swift Runner story.
Speaker 3: She's amazing Morgan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Morgan's awesome. And so it's basically like one part
road trip story about going up to northern Alberta and
looking into all these stories. It's a bit of historical
document about the cases themselves, and then there's a bit
of an investigation in there that we did into the
Wend to Go the wind to Go phenomenon because we
had a sighting near where I live that kind of
came up. And it's a companion piece to the documentary
tracking the Wend to Go, which I actually ended up
to writing and directing as well. And there's even more
in the film of the local investigation that we did
that all and I ended up going and doing. But
it was it was a really interesting book to write
and research, probably the longest process out of all the
books I've written, just because of the nature of it
and having to travel so far to look into it.
Speaker 3: And that's on Amazon, I believe that's where I got
it from.
Speaker 2: It's available from Small Town Monsters Publishing and on Amazon,
Barnes and Noble Books, a million, a variety of places, Walmart.
I think you can order it online as well.
Speaker 3: And is a documentary on YouTube or Prime or can
they can folks watch that documentary.
Speaker 2: You can watch it on the Small Town Monsters YouTube,
but it's also been picked up by Terror Films and
has been distributed across various platforms, you know, Amazon Prime,
to be Fossome, Chiller, Scare TV, all these different platform
which is very exciting. That's like the first time I
made something where that's happened.
Speaker 3: Congratulations that they That is exciting. And your other a
wonderful book, Legend of Oga Pogo Canada's look Ness Monster.
Speaker 2: And it's yeah, basically in way its was the precursor
because I wrote it first to two track Heart of Ice,
because this chronicles Eli, Watson and Ie expedition in Coloonna
looking into the Ladogo Pogo story and how it relates
to indigenous lore. There plus cover sightings, historical documentation, and
I talk about our adventures making the film as well.
And again small Town Monsters, Publishing and all the other
places that I mentioned.
Speaker 3: Man, you're so prolific. I'm so I'm always so impressed
by you. It was so much. It was so great
having you on. Jason. I'll have a link to a
couple of places in the show notes people can go.
But is it any where you want to direct folks
or anywhere else where you'd like people to look or
check out anything you're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess Small Town Monsters would be a great
place to start, both their YouTube and off of their website.
And then you can find me like one of the
easiest places on Instagram, Jason Hewlett Official. So you can
check me out there.
Speaker 3: That's excellent. I'm going to come back to you. I
forgot to do my own plog. I always going to
do it at the beginning of the show. My short documentary,
The Shave of Mystery is next screening public at UFO
Days Elmwood, which is July twenty four to twenty six.
It's on the Saturday at six thirty. I believe it's
screening and it will be followed up by My Shaver
Mystery Part two presentation that I often do when I
screen it. If you're anywhere near Elmwood, Wisconsin, I would
encourage you to come along. It's going to be a
blast and you get to see my Shaver Mystery short
and hang out and have a lot of fun. Both
myself and Samantha will be there and we'd love to
see as many people who are listeners and viewers of
the Anti Radio Network there as we could anyway. Jason,
thank you so much for coming on tonight. It was
such a blast having you as it always it is.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for having on you and
I always enjoy coming on talking wed and chatting with you, Dean.
It's a great opportunity for us to catch up and
shoot the breeze.
Speaker 3: Man, it's great. I can't wait to be on your
show in the not two distant futures. Well do you
want to do you want to plug that show quick
as well? You're actually not my episode, your show in general.
Speaker 2: Paranormal Theories is on San Castle Radio every Tuesday at
five pm Pacific, seventh Central, eight Eastern, and it's exactly
what it'says sounds like. It's every episode is like a
different interview with different people in the realm of high strangeness.
We do creepy campfire stories and case studies, et cetera.
And please tune in. It's a lot of fun through
Sandcastleradio dot org or they're free app.
Speaker 3: Man, it's a great show. Until I get to talk
to you again, Jason, which will be when I'm on
your show in the very near future, which I'm looking
so forward to, and until I get to talk to
everybody else out there, which will be Same Weird time
nine pm Thursday, Central Time, Same Weird Network, the Untold
Radio Network next week. Please keep it weird.
Speaker 2: Good night,